Old thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2494202&page=1Just figured its time for a new thread .. and for whatever reason the MLCs remind me of turtles .. slow, poking their head out of the tunnel every now and then ... while us LBSs are trying our best to contain our hyper-activeness. .... least thats how I feel ... have to remind myself constantly to be patient.
So... soccer today, W gets hot and miserable .. S hot and miserable .. me .. PMA baby ... lol. they started in on each other, it is honestly like watching 2 7 year olds bicker, W tried to bait me into an argument ... I didn't bite. She is on one of her mood swings today ... TM saying S says he is getting picked on at school because of our separation ... I simply told her he had not mentioned it to me ... not sure how she got that out of him, maybe over the past few days she is really trying to figure out what she wants ... no idea .. anything is mind reading at this point. So .. I will stay a touch dark and just let her be, no need to have her bad day affect mine.
Hi Caliguy. You made me laugh with the turtle comment. That is EXACTLY how I see my H. Pokes out every once in a while, then POP! back into the shell!
You are taking the right approach, but it occurs to me that your son may be unloading some of his feelings on his mom these days. I suggest you stay out of it and let them figure it out between them as well as show by example how a man handles things. Your son is watching you, ya know? He will get this out of his system, work it out with his mom, and then watch how you handle things.
Just when you think they are not watching, they are. They just process things differently than their more experienced fathers
AJ
Ok, so just updating ... backslid a bit yesterday.
So Saturday after the soccer game was pretty quiet, W and S had a play date, I went to my IC apt, where is seems I have an issue with being assertive, stating my needs and holding to those boundaries (All true and something that I will now need to focus on as I do become a door mat all to often) W and I were supposed to watch a movie later that night, she TM that she was on her way home, and tired but still extended the invite, ... it was later than I expected so I declined letting her know they should relax and rest up.
Sunday I was about to go to mass, she TM asking if we could do mass (the late one) then the air show, I agree .... did some errands and met them at church, then we went to lunch .. and off to the airshow, all was going well to this point. There was a VIP section that we were near, she had her camera going, all into taking her pictures, then she realizes she could probably sneak into the VIP section ... she tells me .. and off she goes leaving me and S behind. I was ok with this at first ... but then the more I thought about it the more it was just like her leaving our M for the A ... she sees something shiny and more exciting and off she goes, selfishly and could care less about who she leaves behind. So she finally comes out and realizes I was not thrilled with her deserting us like that, told me not to be mad .. then started in her spew session as she all to often does. I then realized .... this is not what I want, I do not want to be with someone so self centered .... nor do I wnat to walk on eggshells to save the M ... not like this .. I would be willing to do my part and work .. but not when she is not willing. So she started in on me .. and said this is why our R has issues, I calmly said there is no R, and has not been in about a year. The ride home was one of her trying to state her case, blaming her mother, blaming me, everyone but herself .. I simply told her ... instead of realizing what she did and how it made me feel and apologizing, she decides to start a huge fight, ... thats her way of making sure she does not take responsibility ... and with S in the car I was not longer going to share how I felt nor fight regardless of how badly she wanted to fight it out.
I dropped her off at her car, and told her how I felt, told her that the A and OM may be "completely" done for her, but it wasnt for me, (He still is on her FB and who knows to what extent they talk) .... she has not made that right as far as I am concerned ... and she can do what she likes, and be with who she wants. Just as I can choose who is in my life and who isn't.
I realize this is not using the honey to draw her in ... but I am just tired of the MLC selfishness, its like she temp checks to see I have not left and does what she wants knowing she still has me on the line. I am not happy with this, and the rope is getting to heavy for me to hold without anything from her in return.
There were some TM after, her threatening the suicide stuff as she has so often done. I am sure the heat from the past two days got to her .... but at some point she needs to take responsibility for herself and her actions. I am unsure at this point what I want ... I surely do not want a life like that, it was a strong reminder of what it was like before BD, and I would rather not revisit those times ever again.
I dropped S off with her after his Dentist apt ... she seemed better, but the exchange was like we were divorced. Time to go dark and let her sort herself out I think
So yesterday W TM asks if I have time to talk ... my stomach flips for whatever reason as I expect the worst. So I go outside to take the call and she is depressed again, I use this as a chance to be calm, be the person she needs (as usual in this case) We talk about some things that are bothering her ... she goes through bouts of anger when i interupt even though I feel its just normal conversation .. so I pull back and just listen to her for a long time ... then later I explained to her how I felt, how what she did made me feel and she actually was receptive .. told her how instead of getting defensive if she would try to understand how I felt .. and at the least be receptive to that rather than pick a fight for her defense it would smooth things out. In turn I need to keep using my "soft voice" ... so the discussion was one that I was happy with ... until ... yes ... until....
So she gets a touch frustrated, and asks what I want from her, I told her I was not understanding what she meant .... I would like to tell her "I want you to pull your head out of the shell and commit to the M, to me ... to our family, God .. all that ... but I held my tongue knowing she did not want a response she wanted to vent. So then she drops ... "What is it you want ... sex? why does everyone want to just have sex with me." I told her .. ok, I have had enough, told her what she said was hurtful, and I am not going to continue the discussion. I hung up .. she called back a few times, texted ... I returned the call and she admitted what she said was hurtful ( a first) and she was sorry.
She went to IC later that night .. talked to S .. and that was it. I was up all night .. fighting the old demons ... images of her in bed with others ... all that came back from Feb/March .. things I thought I was over and past. I dropped S off this morning ... she commented on how good his hair looked .. asked if I had my headache and if I slept ... I softly looked her in the eyes and told her "I don't think I can do this anymore" .. said goodbye and closed the door as she just blankly stared at me.
I have been thinking about it since Sunday ... my needs have never been met in this M, even before BD, (My fault for not being assertive) I am there for her as a safety net as she experiments and tries to figure out what she wants knowing I will put up with about anything, (the comment about "everyone just wants to have sex with me .... I can not take anymore OM's ... nor can I stay in limbo another year) and always be there when she really needs me. She takes ... and doesn't give ... not an inch .. I just can not do it anymore .. I would receive the same thing out of this R if I were alone .. maybe cut out the heartbreak ... I at this point am struggling with why hold onto the rope when its doing nothing but bite me.
So ... I am laying the rope down reluctantly ... my marriage still means something to me, as does my family, but at some point I think I have to cut my losses and accept this, I deserve better .. my S sure as hell deserves better, even my W deserves to be happy even if she doesn't know how to be.
Ouch. Do you recall when I told you that old feelings would surface again?
Are you 100% sure that you're seeing things clearly or that you will view them the same way 12 months from now? Or is it that your feelings of hurt and rejection are coming to the surface as your W moves closer to you?
By all rights, this is the hardest part of the entire journey. This cross-roads. I strongly encourage you to deeply contemplate what you want and make sure that will want the same things 1 year from now.
Whatever you decide is right for you and your family, please just be sure to give it prayer and deep thought before you commit to it. Once you do, don't look back.
AJ
Ouch. Do you recall when I told you that old feelings would surface again?
Are you 100% sure that you're seeing things clearly or that you will view them the same way 12 months from now? Or is it that your feelings of hurt and rejection are coming to the surface as your W moves closer to you?
By all rights, this is the hardest part of the entire journey. This cross-roads. I strongly encourage you to deeply contemplate what you want and make sure that will want the same things 1 year from now.
Whatever you decide is right for you and your family, please just be sure to give it prayer and deep thought before you commit to it. Once you do, don't look back.
AJ
I do recall .. and I realized that these feelings would surface. Its not just about the old hurt. Its the frustration of being the one who always giving, always there ... for someone who ... well is selfish. She uses her looks to get what she wants from who she wants .. and I am just tired of holding that rope. Maybe its a bad day for me ... but last night ... S calls and she says "Hold on a minute I am just heading out" ... now I knew she was at her IC ... and just leaving .. but even the S7 asked ... "Dad where is she going this late?" ... I realized little dude is and has been on to her ... she created this not me.
Right now I just feel I need to go dark, let the rope lay down for a bit ... she needs to work through this .. she also needs to see that I have been there solid through it all, at somepoint she has to understand she could very well lose it all ... I have avoided this "bluff" if you will .. but at this point I have to lay my hand on the table and see what is in store. Nov 8th marks the one year separation point .. I am not sure I can go through another holiday season like I did last year. Am I in a better place now than then .. yes.... the W and I are actually in a better place now than we were ... but I just feel she has to work this out herself right now. So I am pulling back, maybe she can see enough through the fog of what she is losing .. maybe she won't ... I just can not put more into this emotionally at this moment.
Wow Caliguy. That post brought me to tears. You sound so much like me and your W so much like my H. I am in the same place. Realizing I really wasn't that happy with things before BD. However, I do believe they were fixable things, if two were involved with the fixing. I guess that is what I hold on to. I also feel totally taken advantage of, H knows how much I want to save our marriage. H uses this to do as he pleases when he pleases. One day he will say he thinks we should divorce and off into his "room" he goes, then the next morning he gets up and acts like everything is perfectly normal and nothing more is said about D. It is truly the twilight zone. I don't know what to say. I feel your pain, very much. I feel your frustration, very much.
All I know is the more I pull away, the better I feel. Try with the going dark, before making any big decision. See how it makes YOU feel. Try not to worry so much about her. I believe we will know when it is time. Truly time. Let it sit, think about it. There is nothing to rush right now. At least that is what I tell myself. I hope this helps. I'm so sorry, for all of us, having to deal with this madness.
One last thing. Good for you for speaking up on your feelings. I know sometimes it goes against DB, but we put up with so much and need to stand our ground sometimes!
One last thing. Good for you for speaking up on your feelings.
I second that, wholeheartedly!
As somebody who has walked in your shoes for the most part, I am just challenging the thoughts. The one that sticks out to me is the "re-remembering" of the past and your part in it. In a normal relationship, there should be times when one or the other is carrying things. But during that time, they should do it because they want to do it. It's part of the work of a relationship.
Looking back at it under duress is suspect to me. So I challenge that with a goal of understanding if it truly is that you gave and never received or if you are protecting yourself.
See the difference? If you truly have been the only one giving and can't see why, then why go through all this pain in the first place? But if you are protecting yourself by having these feelings, and I suspect to some degree you may be coupled with some truth in there, then I urge you to re-focus those thoughts.
It would be a shame to be married all those years and find out you are a self-serving git that gave all the time with nothing in return. That says a lot about what you would need to work on, no?
As mleigh said, you don't have to make any final decisions right now. If laying down the rope works for you, then you have to do what you have to do. It's certainly not wrong. There is no right or wrong way to act in this forum. MLC has no rules you need to live by. They wouldn't matter if there were.
I think you know that. Both of you.
Keep in mind that it is different to get off the crazy train. If the actions are continuing (and you can know that for sure without imagining) then walking away may be your only option. If you're guessing, you are doing yourself a disservice and causing yourself more pain. Nobody else.
Hope that helps a bit. I'll be quiet now
AJ
One last thing. Good for you for speaking up on your feelings.
I second that, wholeheartedly!
As somebody who has walked in your shoes for the most part, I am just challenging the thoughts. The one that sticks out to me is the "re-remembering" of the past and your part in it. In a normal relationship, there should be times when one or the other is carrying things. But during that time, they should do it because they want to do it. It's part of the work of a relationship.
Looking back at it under duress is suspect to me. So I challenge that with a goal of understanding if it truly is that you gave and never received or if you are protecting yourself.
See the difference? If you truly have been the only one giving and can't see why, then why go through all this pain in the first place? But if you are protecting yourself by having these feelings, and I suspect to some degree you may be coupled with some truth in there, then I urge you to re-focus those thoughts.
It would be a shame to be married all those years and find out you are a self-serving git that gave all the time with nothing in return. That says a lot about what you would need to work on, no?
As mleigh said, you don't have to make any final decisions right now. If laying down the rope works for you, then you have to do what you have to do. It's certainly not wrong. There is no right or wrong way to act in this forum. MLC has no rules you need to live by. They wouldn't matter if there were.
I think you know that. Both of you.
Keep in mind that it is different to get off the crazy train. If the actions are continuing (and you can know that for sure without imagining) then walking away may be your only option. If you're guessing, you are doing yourself a disservice and causing yourself more pain. Nobody else.
Hope that helps a bit. I'll be quiet now
AJ
AJ ... I appreciate and welcome your words ... so do not ever hold your thoughts or advice please
You do have a point ... prior to BD believe me I was not the only one giving .. in fact maybe it was more her .. since then .. since I started DBing .. I have owned my share .. .my contributions to the break up ... and I have made a great deal of changes. At the moment I do feel I am the one giving ... And reading here I realize over hte years she has developed thick skin and I see she is scared of committing into a marriage she was so unhappy she left and did the things she did.
But I think right now ... she has said she is confused, does not know what she wants ... and me being so available and allowing family time as much as I have .. I have allowed her to cake eat. How can she realize what she will not have if it is so readily available all the time? I think I was not DBing properly .. so I realized I need to pull back, GAL .. go dark .. let her sort things out a bit until she will at the least want to try for the M if thats the thing she decides she wants ... I can no longer try to lure her in .. I honestly feel a little darkness and some time for her to sort things out is what I need to do. ... I might be wrong ... I am not wanting to give up my M, I just see this as a test to see where it goes, to see if this works ... something different if you will
That's good to test things out and see what works and what doesn't. Certainly can't hurt at this point, right? I am still testing different things out myself. AJ made some good points. Emotions play such a huge part in how we perceive things from day to day. I mean, if we were so unhappy prior to BD, why would we be putting up with this? We have good reason to walk away right now, but here we are.
I was thinking Caliguy, sometimes your posts sound like you are struggling to make a decision on what to do. I know how overwhelming that can be and feelings change day to day. What about giving yourself a timeline? A certain amount of time off from having to make any kind of decision. To just use that time for trial and error and focusing on you. Then once that time is up, reevaluate where you are at and go from there? It's just a thought. I have given myself thru the end of the year. No decision to be made, just time to focus on me and S. It has taken a huge weight off my shoulders.
Keep up what works, you are doing a good job!
Just a quick update .. not much to add really
I have gone dark ... seems she has to pretty much. I swear sometimes she DB's better than me!!! So yesterday was pretty quiet, just a couple TM about S .. one asking if I scheduled my Dr Appt (I just dodged that question) the TM about S were nothing important, just about how he was being a good boy after they had a falling out ... I did not pry or ask .. just returned with "He is a very sweet special little boy" and left it at that. I told her I had an early game and she would need to pick him up at the ball fields (GAL activity I really enjoy) .... so she was actually there before us .. We get there and I say goodbye to S and she tells me "good luck tonight" ... I nod .. but I think she did not notice and she said it again, I told her thank you and off they went. She did not look good, a bit stressed maybe, not sure .. not going to mind read.
I know I need to detach, but I miss her, I know I have to do this .. I pray it saves my M and my family but I am not so sure anymore. I fight back the urge to call and tell her I am sorry, want to fight for us ... all that. I know she needs to work through this, I know if she comes back it has to be her choice, there will be alot of work to do if she decides this.
So ... I have S tonight, we are going to watch a movie we have been talking about all week ... it will be fun. this weekend is his Fall Festival at school, W will be there volunteering just as I will be ... not sure what this weekend will bring we have not planned anything to do as a family .. I know Sunday she had plans to do some photo shooting with a guy friend of hers ... I am not worried about him being another OM honestly ... but after her statement earlier this week .. it would be easy to drive myself nuts thinking that.
So ... I have a busy Saturday at S's school plan on a late ride after, have S Sunday and will make an effort to do something really cool and fun with him. Keep my PMA up and continue to GAL ... not sure what 180's I can pull off but I am focused on detaching for now. I need to jump back and finish reading the DR book, I kind of set it down while I was doing so well.
Curious Cali. What would it look like if she were to try and come back? What would her first move be?
AJ
Curious Cali. What would it look like if she were to try and come back? What would her first move be?
AJ
Are you sending me down the Mind reading Path?? Lol
Thats a great question and its hard for me to answer, as I am not really sure. I think there are signs there, looking back she has constantly temp checked/cake eating me to make sure I was there, when she felt I was drifting she would give me a little more of what I need, attention, time together, etc.
So as far as what her first move would be .. I think in a way what she tried to do a week or so ago, letting me know OM was completely out ... granted I backslid a bit there ... she might go further into actually talking about MC, and committing to saving our M .... but as I type this these are things I WANT her to do .... not necessarily what she would do.
I am not sure what she would do, not sure what her first move would be ... might just be a sit down talk .. serious and telling me how she feels and that she wants to work on this.
Maybe that will happen, maybe not .. I am not certain .. right now I honestly feel she has to work on herself just as I have, she needs the gift of time ... and I am willing to do that as I am doing now, I still love her, I think that our marriage 2.0 would be drastically improved after all this, all these lessons I have been able to learn, and possibly maybe she has and will learn a few too.
I know I need to detach, but I miss her, I know I have to do this .. I pray it saves my M and my family but I am not so sure anymore. I fight back the urge to call and tell her I am sorry, want to fight for us ... all that. I know she needs to work through this, I know if she comes back it has to be her choice, there will be alot of work to do if she decides this.
I don't think that God gets too involved in affairs of the heart. I think that he would mainly focus on the person, not the situation here. I would assume that his plan would involve YOU becoming the person that he created, rather than a person who defines himself by his Marital status...
I know that "I" changed, when my prayers changed. Instead of praying for reconciliation, I started to pray for the strength to HANDLE a reconciliation, as well as the strength if it didn't as well....
A LOT of work on both parts Cali, not just her, and as hard as YOU have worked so far ??
Piecing is even harder...
Which leads to AJ asking a GREAT question to you....
Curious Cali. What would it look like if she were to try and come back? What would her first move be?
AJ
Are you sending me down the Mind reading Path?? Lol
Thats a great question and its hard for me to answer, as I am not really sure. I think there are signs there, looking back she has constantly temp checked/cake eating me to make sure I was there, when she felt I was drifting she would give me a little more of what I need, attention, time together, etc.
So as far as what her first move would be .. I think in a way what she tried to do a week or so ago, letting me know OM was completely out ... granted I backslid a bit there ... she might go further into actually talking about MC, and committing to saving our M .... but as I type this these are things I WANT her to do .... not necessarily what she would do.
I am not sure what she would do, not sure what her first move would be ... might just be a sit down talk .. serious and telling me how she feels and that she wants to work on this.
I think, and I certainly do not want to speak for AJ here...
That he is leading you down the path of being able to see, very clearly, what is going on around you, so that you do not make, or act on pure emotion right now...
And I also think that he is asking what signs YOU need to see, in order to give this a second chance if it were to happen (her pursuing you).
As far as mindreading? Not so much...
I would say ...more of an awareness...
What does reconciliation look like to YOU ??
What do her steps look like in that process ??
What steps do YOU take when you see those steps ???
Have YOU put yourself out of reach, IF, she does decide to take another look ???
Maybe that will happen, maybe not .. I am not certain .. right now I honestly feel she has to work on herself just as I have, she needs the gift of time ... and I am willing to do that as I am doing now, I still love her, I think that our marriage 2.0 would be drastically improved after all this, all these lessons I have been able to learn, and possibly maybe she has and will learn a few too.
Well said...
Yet it is never too early to think about it happening. I think it's called hope ...
: )
What about giving yourself a timeline? A certain amount of time off from having to make any kind of decision. To just use that time for trial and error and focusing on you. Then once that time is up, reevaluate where you are at and go from there?
This can work really well. I did this, it really helped me focus on "me" and not making a decision, because I decided that no decision until "x" date... It really freed up a lot of mental, and emotional, bandwidth.
I don't think that God gets too involved in affairs of the heart. I think that he would mainly focus on the person, not the situation here. I would assume that his plan would involve YOU becoming the person that he created, rather than a person who defines himself by his Marital status...
I know that "I" changed, when my prayers changed. Instead of praying for reconciliation, I started to pray for the strength to HANDLE a reconciliation, as well as the strength if it didn't as well....
A LOT of work on both parts Cali, not just her, and as hard as YOU have worked so far ??
Piecing is even harder...
Which leads to AJ asking a GREAT question to you....
I think, and I certainly do not want to speak for AJ here...
That he is leading you down the path of being able to see, very clearly, what is going on around you, so that you do not make, or act on pure emotion right now...
And I also think that he is asking what signs YOU need to see, in order to give this a second chance if it were to happen (her pursuing you).
As far as mindreading? Not so much...
I would say ...more of an awareness...
What does reconciliation look like to YOU ??
What do her steps look like in that process ??
What steps do YOU take when you see those steps ???
Have YOU put yourself out of reach, IF, she does decide to take another look ???
Your Comment about putting myself out of reach ... SPOT ON , and IO realized ... she is scared to come back and I am telling her that at some point you have to open up and take a chance .. and I am in fact a hypocrite and not doing the same, sure I could get hurt again .. but it will hurt more knowing I closed the door when she was about to ring the doorbell ... Thank you for making me see that.
Well said...
Yet it is never too early to think about it happening. I think it's called hope ...
: )
Just want to thank you both, obviously as much as I think I have a handle on things .. you both are clearly playing in the majors and can see the pitches coming ... while I am just trying to read and react, its alot harder to get on base this way.
I responded in kind to the TM ... she asked if I made the DR appt and I told her what is going on .... where as before I have side stepped and avoided it. I will be going into this weekend with a bit different approach I think .... Thank you.
What about giving yourself a timeline? A certain amount of time off from having to make any kind of decision. To just use that time for trial and error and focusing on you. Then once that time is up, reevaluate where you are at and go from there?
This can work really well. I did this, it really helped me focus on "me" and not making a decision, because I decided that no decision until "x" date... It really freed up a lot of mental, and emotional, bandwidth.
Honestly ... I think that's where I got myself into trouble. I gave a timeline of Nov 8th (Sep Anniversary 1 year) WAYYYY back when of .. ok if by then we are married or I am done .... this was before DB ... and I realized doing that was just setting up any chance I had at saving my M to failure.
But yes I understand your angle ... thought about it last night after my ball game .. Am I in a hurry? What am I going for .. not like I want to go be single nor entertain that life ... I know the life I want and I really do not want to start over and build it with anyone else at the moment
I read some words ... can not recall where .. but a similar sitch .. together 30 years .. one went off and did the MLC-WAS thing and the other patiently waited, and the perspective was one that floored me. If in fact this is the mate I spend my life with, say I have another 30-40 years ... that's a total of 55-65 years together ... would I be willing to sacrifice 6 months, 12, 18, 24? .... my answer was yes.
So I laid the rope down , not that I was giving up .. but to give her space, let her sort things out ... I am still here, if she were to call me for help because she was depressed ( this is usually twice a month) ... I will be there, sure it stings the way I am treated after sometimes ( need to drop expectations .. this is my fault not hers) .. but lately she has made comments that I am the only one who has not abandoned her, I am in fact the light house and will try to continue to be .... even the lighthouse can get lost temporarily in the fog I think
Hey Cali. Just checking in and getting caught up. You are right, there are some similarities. I think that if xh hadn't ended up in the sitch he's in, there it would be much more parallel.
Your frustrations with the selfish behavior mentioned before really resonated with me. And you had some feelings that you expressed that I felt as well. "She has not made this right as far as I'm concerned." Yup... I get that. Not that she/he ever will. But I think that's OK. We can move on in the meantime. If the effort was there to make it right, wouldn't that be sweet. I consider it a bonus. I head my breath for awhile with that. Maybe I still am, a little. Probably. They can't until they know how, if they ever do. And while being self-centered, it ain't gonna happen.
I feel for ya, Cali. I think you are doing a great job. You are also feeling your way though this. AJ is asking some really good questions. I find them very insightful and helpful.
Keep moving, Cali. And yeah, that fog can be thick sometimes. Eh, we're human. And really, I think that you saying that you have certain expectations is good. It's OK to want a give-and-take r. I think when they find their way back and put in the work, it is what is necessary. They have to want to come back. I think that makes it easier to drop the rope. You can put it in her hands and be free to know, if she comes back it is because she wanted to.
What Mach1 and AJ said about putting yourself out of reach. Then your response of being a hypocrite. (Sorry. I still haven't figured out how you guys do the cut and paste!). That is some good stuff. I fit right in there. I am so guarded And suspicious right now, I can't imagine my H would feel very safe with me. That really helped to open my eyes too. They have some really great views to share. Your posts have been getting me through a tough week. Must be the blood moon or something? Thank you!
Am I in a hurry? What am I going for .. not like I want to go be single nor entertain that life ... I know the life I want and I really do not want to start over and build it with anyone else at the moment.
I feel the same way. Divorcing is always painful. Starting over is too. Dating doesn't excite me one bit. It's a big crap shoot. Find a new partner with new problems? No thanks. I have a good W... she's just searching for meaning in her life at the moment.
.. but lately she has made comments that I am the only one who has not abandoned her, I am in fact the light house and will try to continue to be .... even the lighthouse can get lost temporarily in the fog I think
This is what marriage and Real Love is all about. It's what we vowed to do. Stand by our partners through thick and thin and all that junk. I truly believe had the tables been turned and I fell in crisis, my W would not have abandoned me.
One thought about "trying something new and seeing how it works".
As you are well aware, when our spouse is in life crisis, it's all about them. They have to figure themselves out before they are ready, or even able, to recommit to us. As you are also aware, this often takes years.
As such, nothing we do can bring them back if they're not ready. (Ask me how I know!)
I believe most of them will want back in the M eventually, or at very least, harbor regrets for bombing it to the point of no return years after we moved on. Marriages don't usually make it 20-30 years if they were truly crap, or one partner did all the giving.
So it becomes a situation of outlasting the crisis. How do we do that?
Since it takes so long, I find it important to gauge "what's working" by what's working for ME. What's making my life more meaningful and fulfilling?
My advice is to adjust your course with this in mind.
Sure we'll have moments of discomfort and despair, that's normal. Just can't allow every day be a struggle or we'll never outlast the crisis. We do have a choice in this.
That, or we could always dump their sorry behinds and start dating.
SO much great advice and insight ... and yes FY you are right ... its not a sprint, and Us LBS's have to pace ourselves, seems easier to run in this pack so we are reminded of it .. if one were to shoot out in front to far we know that person is going to burn out and fall off. I tend to use visualizations like this to put things in perspective
A heart felt THANK YOU to everyone who has read my sitch and offered their perspective, I constantly learn from your comments and your own stories every day .. for that I am eternally grateful
Ok Uddate time.
So yesterday was very quiet, I felt I was doing better, not obsessing (as much ...lol) and focused on work, doing well. I read Nitty's sitch and then went and looked at the power pose exercise she mentioned ... that lead me into listening to TED on youtube, very interesting stuff, some just fascinating .. but other things I could relate to and take from on a personal level.
So I pick up S from school, and W TM me as I am almost there, the exchange:
W: How are you?
M: I'm good, how are you?
W:I'm fine did you call the Dr?
M: I have a different appt this weekend, trying to optometrist route first
W:Would you mind checking S homework, I wracked my brain and guessed at the answers
(Ok ... its 2nd grade homework ... lol .. MLC ??)
M:No Problem
W:Are you mad at me again?
M:Not at all ... Why?
W:Because you have kept your distance (Yup .. called going dark)
M:I was just giving you your space which I though you wanted
W:We can talk civily
M: I thought I have been
W: I never said I wanted space. Lets not argue ok?
M: ok
She talked to S later that night as typical .. she actually asked him how I was, and no more contact after that.
I dropped S off, she mentioned how good he looks (I always do his hair very well .... its like mine so I am a pro .. lol) And I was PMA wished them both a good day, she stood looking at me smiling .. then laughed a bit and I asked what was funny .. she told me she just wanted to give me a hug if that would be ok .. if I would let her. So we hugged and I told her to have a good day and left.
I will see her tonight after work, we have some things to do at S's school for the festival tomorrow ... where we both will be .. I will have my PMA going strong and just let the day play itself out.
Glad you're re-thinking things, CaliG. As a suggestion, try really hard to have no expectations and let things play out. This really is a long walk.
And take the pressure off of you - there is no right or wrong answer, except as FY mentioned - what's working for you.
Just be you and know that you won't talk about the things that have transpired until long after the new things take over. Whatever that looks like. In the scheme of things, once things settle out, the past is much easier to deal with. Much. For both of you.
No hurrying. You'll spoil the gift
AJ
AJM ... yeah I struggle with the fact it is a long walk, I think deep down there is a fear that I wait and wait and end up years down the road alone ... but then I check myself and realize even if there were no chance for my M I would be doing the same things, I am not missing out on anything .. in fact .. I have embraced the gift of time and I am a better man for it.
So Lets see .... where things left off in my daytime drama.
Friday:
I went to S school after work to help set up for the festival, turns out ... I was not really needed. W was there sitting with some other moms making paper-whatevers .... she mentioned that her and S were going to have dinner after. Seemed like an open invitation but I simply declined and told her I was going to take care of some errands and get ready for work later that night. Things were cordial .. but guarded (me mostly)
Saturday:
I wake up ... W TM me that after the festival her and S would be going to the pumkin patch .. then invited me over for a movie. She mentioned some other things that I replied to (About the Festival) but I did not mention the movie that night ... I was on the fence honestly ... thinking I should go do so GAL activities (And again ... for whatever reason over the weekend I was guarded) SO I get to the festival and find out what I was signed up to help on ... last year was 3 hours of hell policing the Bouncy House ... lol. This year ... 4 Hours of Beer duty at the beer garden ... pretty sweet gig!! W TM here and there, nothing big just small talk, and about half way through she makes her way over and asks how I am, if I wanted food or water .. nice gesture that I was not really ready for, I was ok but thanked her. Later she told me her neck was hurting (Was a little hot and the heat always puts her out physically) I told her to do the wet towel trick to make it through her last hour, she asked if I thought about coming over later, I told her I was thinking about it, had tentative plans that did not come through so I offered to take S the rest of the day so she could get some rest and lay down.
So we leave, I typically walk her to her car ... but this time I decided not to ... S wanted this new toy so we went on a hunt .. 4 stores no luck. (I never buy the kid toys .. mom's guilt has been doing plenty of that this year ...lol) So later on I bring S over to her place, we eat and pick a movie and watch it. She fell asleep ( as usual) and I get up to leave .. she did make a comment like .. "I didn't think you would leave right now" but I told her I had some things to take care of in the morning and it was late.
Sunday:
I wake up early ... pull the Harley out and go for a ride ... hit up another 4 stores before I found that darn toy. I TM W and tell her I finally located it and I would be by around 11 to pick up S. I went to mass (Thought maybe she would want to go ... but she never asked) So after mass I had about an hour, I TM that I was taking him to the movies and she was welcome to join us. She told me she in fact was going .... ended up meeting her there, S and I went to one for him, she went to the one she wanted to see. Ours was a short one .. we grabbed lunch and went home, she TM after she finished and said it was a good movie, she was out reading a book and asked to see the dog. I replied we were about to go for a walk .. she could meet us at the lake (We always walked as a family there) Met up ... walked .. was short but good.
This Morning.
So .. last night I was thinking, reading DR a bit ... thinking a bit more and I can not recall who .. but a post here made me think of my actions over the weekend. I was detached, but I feel sometimes that comes off as cold, and as FY and AJ mentioned .. maybe counter productive. She has been warm, positive and lately ... really letting me know what she is doing (Not sure if this is on purpose to make me not assume she is out with anyone or what) So driving to her place this mornign I thought about 180's ... I realized through this whole thing I never pursued ... not even early on .. sure I made DB "mistakes" but begging and pleading or even remotely pursuing were not among them. So I get there, she is upbeat and happy and I return her PMA with my own. I asked how she slept and she said she slept really good, she said how about you .. I shook my head and said .. "Eh" with a laugh .. .she hugged me and asked why , asked if it was my headaches .. I squeezed her and said .. "No, I miss you" ... I felt her body kinda drop, there was a pause and I thought ... Chit .. blew it.... but then she softly said "You never say that to me anymore" .. I told her that just because I don't say it doesn't mean that I don't. I noticed during the hug she was watching a movie that I just watched last week, we talked a bit about it and then I wished her a good day at work and left.
I think maybe I might try to pursue just a hair, see if that works or not, but without expectations, and slowly ... thinking inviting her to do something Saturday night as she has had me over for a movie the past 2. Might be a good way to show her its not one sided.
Just journaling a bit.
So last night .. all quiet as has been the case lately. My spidey sense tells me W is just trying to be comfortable alone, work on herself, and I .... as much as I miss her/us .. I understand this is a journey she must take .. detach lovingly from afar.
So the TM twice late about S calling .. he and I were having fun and I missed the TM .... so she missed speaking with him as she was on the line with her brother, the TM later telling me what was going on, said she didnt want to talk about it so I told her goodnight.
This morning I drop S off, she made a point to tell me she was just cooking and wanted me to come in ... so I go to the kitchen, she is struggling with her brothers sitch, I offer a hug, told her I was sorry ... she asked me to pray for him, I told her I have been, as well as for her and all of us, how thats my job now ( This is a big change from who I was pre-BD). She breaks the hug and says she is running late, I sense her mood about to go ... so I calmly grab her shoulders and said "Let me help you this morning, what do you need me to do?" So I helped get S's lunch packed, finished cooking off her breakfast, gave her the food and told her to sit and enjoy it ... I did up all her dishes (I noticed she lets them pile up .. she never did that before... it would drive her nuts) .... I wiped the counters and then told them goodbye. S shot up and ran to hug me .. she even got up and gave me a warm hug and thanked me.
Thing is .. I felt happy .. it felt good to help out of my own heart, it did me good ... so its a new day, a good day. PMA is high.
Thing is .. I felt happy .. it felt good to help out of my own heart, it did me good ... so its a new day, a good day. PMA is high.
Now, back off and let this "sit" with her for a few days....
Make yourself a tad bit unavailable physically, and emotionally....
Taking your advice MAch .. going dim.
So all quiet yesterday, I stayed focused on work ... read a bit here ... just tried to stay busy.
W picks up S ... she was late but TM 2 times letting me know traffic was bad. She arrives and looked tired, I was dressed in a nice pressed shirt and jeans and was on my way out. She looked at me a few times .. flashed the big brown eyes, I just returned the look back, and told her she looked like she had a long day, I would not keep her so she could rest. It was like she wanted to ask where I was off to, but did'nt
S called on time, I was gassing up the Bike ... was PMA with him, he told me he was reading snoopy with her (Her fav this time of year) I told him I thought that he was a pretty cool kid reading that with his mom and making memories.
This morning W TM me about where to pick him up, chit chat about what he has been doing with her ... told me she had lunch with our old neighbors at the very place we had our reception ... (ugh) and then asked if we could switch days this weekend as she made plans after his soccer game. I simply replied ok .... and told her S has been wanting a Saturday with me, so he will be happy ... and I was planning on going to the College football game anyways and was thinking about taking him ... its a late game so I am not to sure ... I told her she was more than welcome to join us. Left it at that.
She seems chatty via TM this morning .. she isn't feeling well ... I had a long talk with a good friend last night who knows my sitch .. not judgmental at all ... then the talk just became a nice night out .. I enjoyed it. Softball tonight .. GAL GAL GAL
GAL, PMA .. faking it till I make it I suppose. I am struggling with the separation .. holidays looming .. little things bug me, W had the pumkins in front of her condo, we always had 3, S and I would scoop out the guts and carve them up .. there were only 2. Small things .. not like I go into a fit .. just little truth daggers I guess that sting and I force myself to shake them off. I dont like how long its been, fear how comfortable she is getting with living alone with out me ... all things I can not do anything about. I fear how comfortable I am getting .. I have been really thinking about my own place, just can not swing anything with the large dog ... but I would rather have a 2 bedroom set up like she has. I have never felt "at home" renting the room in the house I am at. But I dont let that show to her or S. ..... just venting here. I know its a long way from over, either way. I am working on me and I have made alot of good positive progress.
Hey Cali....
I wanted you to "sit" with what I said for a bit before I explained myself....
First off, this isn't a game, and I think that you know that.
YET...it WILL play like a game. The push/pull dynamics of DBing. It is just the way that it works.
You have seen some of that already, when you push, she runs, and when you pull back, she pursues a bit.
So when I say to pull back, it is with ZERO expectations, and not expecting anything other than you are busy creating a new life for you and your Son.
Anything less....would be manipulative...
Secondly, the Holidays are a trigger for the LBS to become emotional. We get attached to "feelings" of the season, and we expect the MLCer to do the same.
And because we expect, we ACT on our own emotions instead of staying calm and just being who we are. Keep an eye on that within yourself over the next few months.
Thirdly....
Try to understand this from her position here for a minute, and see how your responses have been different. Rather than to react, you have led, maybe for the first time in the marriage. So for her to truly believe that you are doing this, or are even capable of doing this, well, she has to process that information within her cloudy, fogged up brain....
So let anything new, or any conversations sit for the 48 hour rule before you do or say anything to contradict what you have laid out there for her...
Do you trust yourself yet ? Well, she doesn't either, and realistically....it isn't even about that yet...
Fourth on the list...
The Pumpkin thing....
Leave it for now, don't even worry about it. She didn't do that just to hurt you, or make you feel bad.
In this new reality of HER world, there are only two pumpkins. And IF she is really MLC, then two pumpkins are all that she can really be emotionally responsible for, maybe even only one pumpkin emotionally...
So don't jump overboard and do the three pumpkin thing, just to get her to miss you, or the old life together or anything....
Do 150 of them, or one.....as long as it isn't three ( to rub that guilt in)....
Whatever it is that you do, make sure that it is different, and for you and your Son ONLY....
Cool ???
Mach
Thank you for all your advice/input
Oh I totally agree, it plays like a game .. but isn't, and for the first time in months .. the past few weeks I honestly have had zero expectations. I have sat back as you said .. and predictably here she comes, in fact I think the entire "I have plans Saturday" thing was in response to me being dressed up (mind reading maybe ... but a hunch)... and the fact I told her "ok" that I would take S and we would have fun ... without asking what/where/who she was going (part of me is curious ... but the other side is just a shoulder shrug) ... I did not even touch it nor show interest. So after the non-engage .. she wants to fight about $$ today. Seems she is looking for reactions from me and she is not getting any .. I am in a good detach mode at present and its actually nice, not reacting emotionally.
The pumpkin thing .. was just a vent here is all. But yes .. your advice on the Holidays.. Completely sound and something I need to watch. I did not mention it, nor remotely show anything ... in fact the only comment/joke I made was asking her how she got them up the stairs (She had asked me the day before if I would mind bringing them up... the thinks looked about 25lbs and she is only 125...lol).
Not much to add today...
Went to my game yesterday, W texted asking if I could walk S down to the car ... she was not feeling well, I did so, told her I hoped she felt better and went back to the field. I typically go out with the team after, but decided to just go home, I jumped in the shower, S called ... we actually facetimed which was nice, watched a movie and went to bed.
I find myself waking up depressed lately .. I just want to stay in bed. I think its more the weather than anything .. but I did catch myself grabbing a couple pillows and holding them as I would her ... something to throw at the IC .. I miss her and my family badly .. but I think now more than ever I need to lock down this detach thing, be firm in the boundaries I have set.
Things that are on my mind:
*She is upset about the $$ ... she wants more and I am not doing it .. even if we D it would be less.
*I am to available
*In a discussion with S ... I asked him if he viewed me as weak ( can not recall how we got on this topic) But he said only when W yells at me ... he said I should stick up for myself, That hit a nerve ... I avoid the fights because I dont want him to see it .. in turn it paints me as a weak man ... something to watch.
*Holidays ... ugh ... I am thinking about boycotting them..lol
*Softball is about over, I think I will replace that night at church in the RCIA program ... its constructive
*Plan more GAL on the weekends and stop accepting movie invites with her
Hi Caliguy. I'm sorry if you are having a down day. It's ok to have those sometimes, means we are normal, right? It sounds like you are doing well with the detachment and no expectations. What I have found that works for me is pretty much no expectations, but I find I also expect the worst. I expect H to have plans without S and I on the weekends, I expect him to come home late after work, I expect him to hide out in his room, disappear in different places of the house. Yes, unfortunately this has become my reality. But at least when things go differently, it's a nice surprise.
It sounds like your W enjoys doing things with you and I think that is great. You mentioned you feel too available...... I know what you mean by feeling like it is all a game. I feel that way too and just really want to stop playing and move forward!
Try not to let your W define your happiness. Keep your focus on yourself and your S and all the other things you have to be grateful for
Thanks mleigh .... and its hard to detach .. however I think I am about to big time.
So ... this morning has been horrible
W texted me yesterday about her brother, he has been moved to a different prison ... ok .. her family is amazing, all educated and proper, But he got himself into trouble and not amount of money or lawyers could get him off.
So I get to her place this morning... drop off S and she is stressed a bit, I help S get into his school clothes (She did not give me his friday uniform) and she is upset with me for that ... I explain we got there early, because I asked her earlier in the week for the uni and she said she would pack it ... of course MLC she does not recall this conversation. S is on the ipad so I tell him to focus, we need to get ready ... and then she starts in on me yelling at him ... I quickly grab the spew jacket and brace for hurricane WAW-MLC to hit shore. I get S dressed, she keeps on me and I just kind of backslide. Basically I told her I would just remove myself from her life as that seems to be what she wants ... then I leave.
I have had an hour of TM since ... pulling up things I have done in the past, things I havent doen .. all my short comings .. all my failures ... you name it .. she is on it. I tried to validate here and there, but she is on a good one. I basically said I would let her go .. I tried ... she was liek "tried what" I said to save the marriage ... then she tole me I haven't ... I brought up scheduling the 2 MC's , one of which she did not even go to .. the other we went 4 times but she was still with OM so it had no chance.
Just a horrible exchange and I have lost all hope ... I am sure she is looking at starting up the D process today after it all. Time to go dark ... for a long time I think ... it may very well be over. This roller coaster stinks, I have been on it for a year and made so many mistakes. Its in Gods hands at this point.
Dis-engage....
Back away from the spew...
And don't buy too much into it
Chances are, within 48 hours, she won't remember this either...
Dis-engage....
Back away from the spew...
And don't buy too much into it
Chances are, within 48 hours, she won't remember this either...
I have ... its just hard. Alot of the changes I have made have been good. I still struggle with a few others, and these I have been trying to change for me .. not to get her back but it stings when she points them out and with my past I have no excuse/retort ... seems there is a long list of things I need to work on, or maybe its just a long list of things she needed to leave me. Regardless I can not force her back, when its so clear everything she says she wants out, MLC talk or not. Then sometimes seems maybe she doesn't .. but I question myself .. is it me seeing what I want and just avoiding the cold hard truth that its over and has been ... I am the only one holding on here.
I try to re-read the texts ... look for some sign of her in MLC land screaming for me to hang on ... again ... am I looking for things for me.... that just are not there.
I know .. Detach ... and I have to .. I think I am at that point I have to let go ... completely ... I never have. Scared of a life with out her or a chance of having my family ... the one all 3 of us deserve.
She stated several times that I should find someone better. I told her I did not want anyone else but her .. pursuing and I know this ... She knows deep down I am here waiting .. I have seen this in other sitches here ... I have to let her go. Will be the hardest thing I ever do, I know I will be ok alone ... I have to remind myself ... I made mistakes, but this was not my idea, not my choice, all I can do is play the hand I have been given ... its up to God. I told her I have been there for her through everything, I had a choice .. forgive or divorce and I decided to forgive because she means the world to me, half my heart is hers ... most likely a mistake as far as DB goes .. .who knows.
I am not going to make it a formal goodbye to her .. but I need to just go dark .. NC as much as possible with S involved. Work on me .. GAL/PMA ... God give me strength.
I don't think telling her where your heart is is a bad thing. All you can do in those situations is apologize for what you did wrong or how you made her feel. You can't go back in time and change things you did, but you can learn from it and work on a better future. That is all you can do, and it sounds like that is exactly what you are doing. You are right, it is not in your hands.
Hang in there Caliguy. Let the dust settle and see how it goes.
I have ... its just hard. Alot of the changes I have made have been good. I still struggle with a few others, and these I have been trying to change for me .. not to get her back but it stings when she points them out and with my past I have no excuse/retort ... seems there is a long list of things I need to work on, or maybe its just a long list of things she needed to leave me. Regardless I can not force her back, when its so clear everything she says she wants out, MLC talk or not. Then sometimes seems maybe she doesn't .. but I question myself .. is it me seeing what I want and just avoiding the cold hard truth that its over and has been ... I am the only one holding on here.
And SHE has seen those changes too....
Why do you think that she continually tries to turn you back into the person that you once were ???
Cause that is what she is tryin to do, ya know....
She NEEDS you to be that other guy. The one who has those flaws that you are working on....
That way, she is justified in her decision to leave....
I try to re-read the texts ... look for some sign of her in MLC land screaming for me to hang on ... again ... am I looking for things for me.... that just are not there.
I see a LOT of signs, according to the interactions that you post....jus sayin
I know .. Detach ... and I have to .. I think I am at that point I have to let go ... completely ... I never have. Scared of a life with out her or a chance of having my family ... the one all 3 of us deserve.
If you "think" that you are, then you probably aren't.
Detaching, around here, is often talked about like it is some magical place, where one can go and spread a picnic blanket, and have lunch with Unicorns dancing around and it rains Skittles...
I am sorry to inform you, that it isn't : )
Cali, detaching is more of a way of life, rather than a decision that you consciously make.
You are probably more detached than you think that you are....
Detaching doesn't mean that you don't love her. Detaching means that her actions no longer affect your actions....
She stated several times that I should find someone better. I told her I did not want anyone else but her .. pursuing and I know this ... She knows deep down I am here waiting .. I have seen this in other sitches here ... I have to let her go. Will be the hardest thing I ever do, I know I will be ok alone ... I have to remind myself ... I made mistakes, but this was not my idea, not my choice, all I can do is play the hand I have been given ... its up to God. I told her I have been there for her through everything, I had a choice .. forgive or divorce and I decided to forgive because she means the world to me, half my heart is hers ... most likely a mistake as far as DB goes .. .who knows.
Blah, blah, blah....MLC script right there....
That certainly would relieve HER guilt now wouldn't it ?
You, finding someone else ???
Don't take that bait buddy....
I am not going to make it a formal goodbye to her .. but I need to just go dark .. NC as much as possible with S involved. Work on me .. GAL/PMA ... God give me strength.
Well, isn't that what you have been doing ???
The only difference that I can read, it that you want it to be all dramatic and all....
Like the Titanic sinking....
Yes, do all of those things that you are feeling. Without the whole "telling" her aspect....
Cause, how has "telling" her ANYTHING been working for ya ???
Stay the course Cali....and start trusting yourself....
You are doing well.
She stated several times that I should find someone better. I told her I did not want anyone else but her .. pursuing and I know this
So she told you all your shortcomings and told you to find somebody better, eh? Huh. As if that never happens around here...What makes you think that telling her how YOU feel is backsliding? Or devaluing her opinion?
What I'm getting at is that we all have seen similar. And since there are no rules, you didn't break any.
The key question is how you feel and if you feel you did the best you could or not? That's incredibly important.
I agree with Mach - she may not even remember what she said even now. Don't look at it as personal. It's likely not, but rather her trying to make herself feel better.
And I can tell you that responding via text is likely the worst thing you can do. Why? Because it has no feeling and can easily be misconstrued and because her accusations serve no useful purpose - aside from whatever she gets from it.
Validating and agreeing are not the same thing. You can validate her feelings and accusations (they are her perspective) and you can own your own issues. You cannot fix her. You cannot persuade her otherwise. You can't push her over via your manly strength no matter how your son views it. By the way, he sees his father being attacked and doesn't know why. He thinks, in his young mind, that the only way to handle it like a "man" is to fight back. Is that really true?
Your depression over this? I would expect it in the future as well. It'll pass. I suspect you'll find that when you look short term you'll see it more often than when you look long-term.
Look. You engaged. Is that what you want? If so, do you like the response you got? Or maybe next time you can see that as a time to go quiet with the TM's and let her talk to you face to face.
The statement that you can find better while accusing you of wrongs - that's an easy sign for you, my friend. A trigger to go dim, rather than bear the brunt. An old saying, "it's better to walk away to fight another day" is applicable here.
This is her issue. I'm not saying you're perfect or ever were. But this is her issue and how she deals with stressful things in her life. She needs to figure that out and TM's won't help that.
Think about your perspective for a minute and consider the source.
AJ
What he said ^^^^^
Damn AJ, I owe you an email to, don't I ???
Thanks Mach and AJ ... I have read your posts several times over the past couple days ... along with giving your words a great deal of thought and the long term goal. I realized .. the long term goal is not so much winning her back, its me getting to a place where I am good regardless if she is Mrs. Gali .. or Ex Cali ... and thats on me.
SO Update ... and yes you were right .. Saturday morning at soccer .. was like friday never happened. We switched days so Saturday after the game I was taking S for the night. W looked good ... and I only caught myself a couple times wondering what her plans were. Baby steps for me as months ago it would consume me. She was chatty telling me about work ... I had one ear on her and was trying to watch S play ... she got a little upset about me not giving her my full attention and I apologized but told her I was trying to watch our son (Thinking .. wow MLC ... it is all about you isn't it?) She was not feeling well, the stress of the week effects her physically .. and yes in way I was glad hoping she would not fully enjoy her "plans" ... but once S and I left I actually didnt think about her much. Just a TM or 2 that day about S and why he was upset.
Sunday morning I woke up early .. made S pancakes (I never get to do this) W texts informing me she was going to the late mass at the church up by me and would pick up S after. I told her ... like I did Saturday, our plans involved early mass at the one by her (S and I both prefer that one) and I would drop him off after. She did not fight it , just replied Ok. So S and I hit mass, I bought him a donut ... we had a blast the entire time we were together. W TM asking if I told S he would be with her Sunday night so he would not be upset. I think she realizes he prefers me .... can not blame him .. even at 7 I think he understands the sitch and feels safe and secure with me ... while with her its not always stable with her moods. I dropped him off, she invited me in and I declined and hugged S , wished them a good day and left.
She TM about 30 minutes later asking if I was feeling ok, I replied I was feeling good. I went home ... jumped on the bike, and went to the movies alone .. but wanted to see Fury. Went home, watched the football game, jumped back on the bike and just rode around a bit, went to a bar had a couple beers and watched some people play pool ... went home .. showered. S called on time .. he sounded down .. .I tried to be upbeat and told him I wished I could tickle his mood away like I always do, I felt bad for him but stayed PMA. Watched a movie and went to bed. W had TM me just a couple times about S ... showing me he was reading .. nothing I felt I really needed to respond to ... pretty much stayed dark.
This week I do not expect much communication ... have a feeling OM or an OM2 is around ... she seems happy but distant. I wll not make the same mistakes I have, I have realized this is about me and working on the things I need to work on while allowing her to get through her own journey.
S did say Saturday that W told him that he and I would carve pumpkins this weekend ... she has not mentioned it to me .. and honestly I just feel family time has been one big cake eating festival for her. I will get a pumkin and he and I will carve it at my place ... they can carve their own. Holidays .. ugh.
Thanks Mach and AJ ... I have read your posts several times over the past couple days ... along with giving your words a great deal of thought and the long term goal. I realized .. the long term goal is not so much winning her back, its me getting to a place where I am good regardless if she is Mrs. Gali .. or Ex Cali ... and thats on me.
And THAT, is the true essence of DBing....
You heal and work on yourself, so that one day, IF she turns around to look in your direction, YOU are ready for it...
And THAT, is the true essence of DBing....
You heal and work on yourself, so that one day, IF she turns around to look in your direction, YOU are ready for it...
Easier said than done !! lol Knowing what you have to do and doing it are not always the same .. but I am making progress.
Took the delivery today just to get out of the office. Not a great move in a way .. but in another way it was good. No radio, nothing .. just 3 hours alone with my thoughts. W TM last night and this morning just about S, nothing important ... just "He loves to read, loves his new book , woke up this morning at 4:30 to read and I made him go back to bed"
I did not reply ... I read the TM, and the iPhone rats you out ... I could change that .. but decided not to, she can see I read the text but there was nothing really I felt like replying to. I am going dark for a bit .. for me.. not a reaction from her.
I had a talk with God .. reminding myself I needed this time to become better, thanking Him for teaching me the lessons I have learned up to this point, and I know I am required to learn more before I am released from this limbo. I did joke with him Sunday as I left her saying "Lord ... ya know .. you did not have to make her so darn pretty ya know .. this might be a bit easier" laughing as I said it.
Anyways ... I am going to try "something different" and just let my marriage go for this week, detach lovingly, be PMA, but not respond to any texts unless its important. This is for me, I realized over the weekend as much as I think I am detached and GAL/PMA ... I still would do a back flip is she asked me to. I feel she is detaching too, unsure if there is an OM ... or if its her therapy ... she told me Sat that she TM her Dr late at night about the herbs she is on (She went holistic about 2 years ago .... helped physically .. but I have no doubt it put her into MLC-ville) ... typically she would have texted me too ... and I would have been there comforting her either TM/Phone/in person.
Now you sound like you're getting it, Cali. I like that you're talking about you and relating about things around you. Why? Because it helps to know you're working on YOU
AJ
Thanks AJM .... I feel like that drunk guy at the bar and you all are forcing me into your car .... I know its for my own good and its the safest way home .. but man I just want one more drink...lol
So Update: Not Much .. Journaling really
So yesterday I picked up S, he goes to a Catholic School, wife had a big role in this ... education focused and all .. .honestly I am all for it, deep down I wish my parents pushed like hers did .... she is a College grad ... I went the Military route, did night courses ... then life happened and I never finished ... HUGE issue with her ... and I have been in contact with a school online .. and am submitting my Application this week .... again ... not for her, I realized renting a one room out of a house does not provide my son with what he deserves .. I will become better for him. So ... anyways ... they have this little prayer chapel ... I have been going in with S and praying daily, one of my DB 180's I decided to become the spiritual leader of our family ... (regardless if she is part of the family or not).
So After S and I go to the store, I was going to suprise him with Pigs in a Blanket .... well ... last week he discovered chili dogs .. so he asked for those instead .. mid sentence he stopped .. and said all excited "Dad ... how about Chili Pigs in a blanket?" ... sure .. why not ... and ya know what .. They were awesome ... great night and dinner. W TM asks for S to call soon ... So I have S call, he always goes on speaker (Her trick not mine) ... so as they talked I did a 180 ... instead of listening (secretly hoping she would talk to me) I jumped in the shower. Felt good to remove myself ... I came back and they had just finished (On the phone WAY longer than normal).
So ... woke up that morning, dropped off S ... W invites me in .. I decline and she persists .. so I come in (I should have stuck to my guns .. something to work on here big time) She says I look nice, I return the compliment, asks about my head ... I told her I was good, asked how she felt, if she slept ... she said she did but looks like I did'nt ... I did not lie and told her I had a hard time sleeping but was good. She then asks about when my neurologist appt is .. .I told her I have post phoned it .. recieved some bills I need to clarify first .. then she starts in, asking if I wanted her to call ... I told her I would handle it, then she asks what they charged, who , what for, I firmly stated I just received them and would handle it ... she spews "Fine ... I tried" ... I told S to have a nice day at school and left.
One of her LL is AOS, however was hard for me looking back, she controlled all the money, and anything I tried to do for her seemed not enough ... she was really critical just like her mother has become famous for (Something she is working on with her IC)
So ... at work and locking down for what looks to be a busy day, hopefully keeps my mind occupied.
Just putting down some thoughts
Something has happened ... not sure when or what .. but its like she slipped back into the tunnel. Thinking back on some comments .. she was checking out what I have been doing .. painting me into the person I was before BD. OM, Tunnel, MLC .... who knows.
Yesterday I picked up S as usual from school. After I decided to kill some time, I stopped off to get my haircut, she TM that she was on her way I TM that I was about to get my haircut and S would have my phone ( I do this to make sure she doesn't spew and he sees it) .... so she is TM S all happy and playful ... reminded me of when we were good and she would do that with me. Anyways after ... she picks up S. She was cordial .. but very guarded, almost cold. Like it was a business exchange. However I could see it in her face that there was alot of stress there. I swear she DB's on accident and she is better than me at it. I went back in and finished making dinner ( for one .. so depressing) ... put it in the fridge and decided to get out of the house. Jumped on the bike and went to this little bar down the street ... figured I would have a beer or two and play pool ... second time I have tried to do this .. second time they have leagues taking up both tables .... so I went next door .. grabbed a burrito and went home.
S called on time, again he did not sound that happy .. but she was all giggles and playing with him, its like she is making a point to be this happy go lucky person around him. We hung up and alone with my thoughts I sat. I have given my M and family to God, praying everyday he delivers me, my faith at times is shaken .. then I do see a sign here and there that gives me some hope. Its the nights I am alone that are the hardest, I know .. GAL .. I have been ... its just hard to every single day. Its been almost a year since S.
So today ... more dark, she has not TM nearly as much in the past couple weeks. I have not initiated any TM in months. time to just sit in the foxhole and wait it out I suppose.
Hey Cali....
Yea, she is gonna "bounce" around quite a bit.
I used to think of it as her "processing" information. Be it new or old information (doesn't really matter). She is thinkin, make no mistake about that....
As far as whether she is happy, or sad ??
I would bet that even she doesn't know the answer to that one.
The masks that they wear sometimes are quite confusing. So try not to read her "at the moment" persona...
Hey Calidude,
I went back in and finished making dinner ( for one .. so depressing)
Could you re-frame this in your mind to : "Sweet! I get to make whatever I want...how about pepperoni bacon pizza, with a whole tin of anchovies!!!"
Everything in the universe is neutral, everything we experience is neutral...It's how we choose to perceive it that determines if its positive or negative.
You have the power, within your thinking, to turn anything into a positive... it's a conscious decision and effort on your part.
Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself, in your way of thinking. -- Marcus Aurelius
Guard your thoughts well.
but she was all giggles and playing with him, its like she is making a point to be this happy go lucky person around him.
Some mind reading here, dude.... It doesn't serve you, and I was very, very good at mind reading, but I'm better now...
FWIW, they do sometimes/a lot of times exaggerate their "happiness" to validate to themselves to themselves, friends, and the kids. my kids have noticed that with my stbx... and they see through it (they are teens).
So....that means? about her... ?
That means....? About you...?
sit in the foxhole and wait it out I suppose.
Yoda said "There is do, or do not, there is no "suppose"..."
What do you want your life to look like? Without W in the picture? What would you do in your life, with your life, if say, W had died? What would you being doing after grieving?
Hm?
Write down some things, say 5. Please post it back here. Then figure out what YOU need to do to accomplish them, then make a plan, check boxes and all.
GAL is beyond getting out of the house, it includes making a life plan and starting to work it...and the activities to accomplish your goals...researching, reading, working out, whatever...
Have you read NMMNG yet? The library usually has a copy.
Please post here 5 things you want your life to look like, regardless if you R or not.
Hey Cali....
Yea, she is gonna "bounce" around quite a bit.
I used to think of it as her "processing" information. Be it new or old information (doesn't really matter). She is thinkin, make no mistake about that....
As far as whether she is happy, or sad ??
I would bet that even she doesn't know the answer to that one.
The masks that they wear sometimes are quite confusing. So try not to read her "at the moment" persona...
Good advice ... as usual ... Thank you.
Hey Calidude,
Could you re-frame this in your mind to : "Sweet! I get to make whatever I want...how about pepperoni bacon pizza, with a whole tin of anchovies!!!"
Everything in the universe is neutral, everything we experience is neutral...It's how we choose to perceive it that determines if its positive or negative.
You have the power, within your thinking, to turn anything into a positive... it's a conscious decision and effort on your part.
Typically ... I am generally a positive person, always have been, there are times when yeah, it just hits me to a point I get frustrated. I have always enjoyed cooking, I would get home and start dinner... relaxed me, and I enjoyed cooking for her up until she changed her diet.... then it was tough cooking 3 separate meals ... man .. I would actually welcome doing this now. So .. yes I see your point and need to PMA when no one is looking too ... thank you.
Some mind reading here, dude.... It doesn't serve you, and I was very, very good at mind reading, but I'm better now...
FWIW, they do sometimes/a lot of times exaggerate their "happiness" to validate to themselves to themselves, friends, and the kids. my kids have noticed that with my stbx... and they see through it (they are teens).
Yeah ... I think thats what was getting me .. seemed forced and fake .. but you are right .. mind reading does not help me one bit ... I struggle with analyzing every little thing ... trying to see an angle .. and with MLC doing that will be sure to drive a person insane.
What do you want your life to look like? Without W in the picture? What would you do in your life, with your life, if say, W had died? What would you being doing after grieving?
Hm?
Write down some things, say 5. Please post it back here. Then figure out what YOU need to do to accomplish them, then make a plan, check boxes and all.
GAL is beyond getting out of the house, it includes making a life plan and starting to work it...and the activities to accomplish your goals...researching, reading, working out, whatever...
Have you read NMMNG yet? The library usually has a copy.
Please post here 5 things you want your life to look like, regardless if you R or not. I have read NMMNG ... one of the first reads for me .. I am revisiting it currently now that I am this deep into it .. I need to apply many things from that book.
I am going to lunch ... and have been thinking about the highlighted portion of your post .. dude ... heavy .. and I really want to give it serious thought as I have since yesterday before replying ... but THANK YOU ... its this type of thing that makes me realize how much this forum is helping me .. making me look deep inside and actually change, change my thinking process, become a better person ... will reply soon.
TSquared
So the comment you made about how I would want my life to look, if my W had died .... this floored me, and at the same time a light bulb went off. i began .. .in my head processing this. Amd it struck me .. she did die, that girl I knew .. gone ... so I started acting as if she has passed, I was grieving this past year, losing her, our M, the family .. all of if .. it just made it easier to accept with this perspective. She came to the ball field last night to get S, and I was PMA, doing my GAL ... and was really nice to her like it was a blessing to be able to see my deceased wife. Detached, but very nice with her. And it seems to be working .. atleast for my mental well being.
So to answer the question, I am happy with so many of the things I have done this past year. Consistently going to church, which helped me not be as angry and frustrated. The relationship I have with S is so strong now, there are things I want to change ... and goals I have set recently .. M or no M I will do these things.
So ... My 5 goals ( I had 2 big ones and had to think of the other 3 .. but THANK YOU for the homework .. this will help me focus on ME.
1: Attend and complete the RCIA program at the church (I go to a catholic church, S is in a Catholic school, I promised he would be raised that way and find it almost hypocritical that I am not a Catholic in a way.
2: I have contacted an online university and will be compleing my degree, I need about 1-2 years and I will have my degree, its expensive .. but something I want to accomplish
3: I would like to actually do some Harley rides, I bought it for this purpose but have yet to actually do any, want to do at least 4 in the next year.
4: I need to be more social, actually do things with friends .. we talked last night .. I have a few buddies who I play softball and football with .. we are done in both sports till late Jan .. we talked about having a poker night on Tuesdays .. I used to do this and would love to get back into something like this again.
5: Spending better quality time with S, doing outdoor activites with him .... camping .. fishing .. those types of things. We have fun but I want to be more active outside vs movies and video games with him. We are actually going out tonight to watch the Charger game at his favorite BBQ place, both excited to just be out and about vs at home
6: (Because I want this too) I need to get back into running ... was doing 3 miles 3 times a week, had finally got my time under 30 minutes and my leg was acting up .. its better now .. and I had lost some weight .. still want to drop 5-10
Those are good, try to expand...
-Living sitch (own apt, house)?
-Employment?
-Income?
-Travel?
-??????
Update.
So like I mentioned .. the dead W thing ... huge for me and for whatever reason really put me at peace since. I gave my M and her to God ... and pray he will walk me the rest of the way through this.
I TM her yesterday .. I RARELY do this .. but thought WTH, I said "I've been wanting to ask you, but did not want to upset you while you weren't feeling well how BIL is and if you have received any word (He was just moved into prison from the county jail) Please let him know that he is in my thoughts and prayers" She responded kindly .. then discussed some tax info and she told me she has to get some major work done on her car. I wished her a good rest of the day and left it at that.
W was at the field last night to pick up S and I was very pleasant ... she had out tax refund check for me to sign, and asked how I wanted to handle splitting it, I told her I would just put in less this month so she could deposit all of it in her account, and we would not have to worry about her getting me my share of it... was a good solution. I hugged S and said goodbye to her and for them to enjoy their night. I played my game .. last one for this season and as a team we went out and celebrated ... to much .. lol.. I was pretty liquored up .. slept in and was late to work ... just realized I did not think of her at all .. was enjoying myself.
So at work today ... W TM, she has been dark for some time ... asked me how I was ( Severely hungover ...lol) I told her I was good and she brought up S and that we may need to have a little talk concerning his body .. as he is asking her questions ... I told her that he is most likely curious because of the differences ... she laughed and said I was spot on .. and said that S is all about her Boobs ... "Just like his father" this is true... lol ... I told her he mentioned to me that he has 4 crushes at school ... we actually had a very nice exchange about S, laughing and sharing things about him. ... so I get to atleast put a + mark on my calendar ... its been some time since I have been able to do that.
Tonight .. out to dinner with S ... looking forward to it.
Those are good, try to expand...
-Living sitch (own apt, house)?
-Employment?
-Income?
-Travel?
-??????
Yes .. living sitch is a big one .. but its tough at the momeent ... $$ is tight and I have the dog, I would love to get a 2 bedroom apt .. but finding one out here that I can have the 100lb dog in is very hard ... but I will start looking after the year .. I pay off a few things and will have some $$ freed up.
Employment is good .. been here a year .. left a dead end 17 yr job and have done well here ... 2 10% raises in a year. With the degree, and this job on my resume .. later I will be paid better, long term objective there.
As far as travel ... I have seen alot in my time .. never really had the travel bug .. however .. the Harley does make me want to take coast drives, and check out the local scenery .. I live in a beautiful location and its good to take it in on the bike during the weekends.
Sounds like you had a good couple of days and still getting great advise! Glad to hear it
Thanks for stopping in mleigh. Yeah the advice here is probably why I have not gone completely insane by now ... lol
So just journaling ... Updating.
Picked S up yesterday, we went out to his fav BBQ place, watched the first half of the game then went back to my place. He told me that he had told W what we were doing (he was pretty excited) and he invited her, but she declined telling him it was a boys night out. He called her up to say goodnight, was a short convo and she sounded a little down, but I was trying to break myself from listening in.
Dropped off S this morning, she invited me in... small talk, Asked how I was .. how work was .. I did the same,totally like neighbors would talk, I kept PMA and ended the conversation ... sincerely wishing her a good day. As I left ... for whatever reason a wave of sorrow fell over me, I just can not believe how much I really love her and how on earth we wound up "here". Stay the course .... I realized today things could be worse ... her spew TM/Phone calls have really tapered off, she has not brought up D in some time, evidence shows she was looking at me ... I will try not to mind-read here but there was a Horoscope page open on S's iPad looking up my sign (What to expect romantically), She also pulled up my facebook profile, and commented on another forum kind of like this that I used to spend a serious amount of time on. It was after that she pulled away ... so at the least .. she is "thinking" it appears. FWIW .. I was not snooping .. S tends to leave apps open and it kills the battery so I was just closing them off and noticed.
She TM this morning giving me some good news concerning BIL (Atleast she is still sharing that with me) and also told me what was discussed this morning at S's school meeting. still all business .... but she is still keeping some contact.
I do have a dilemma I would love to get advice on. This morning she asked if S and I were going to carve a pumpkin ... she has 2 outside her place (This bugged me .. but I let it go) so I told her maybe Sun/Mon I would get one and he and I would carve it at my place, she then said she wanted to take him trick or treating at our old neighborhood and she asked if I wanted to join them. I am on the fence here, I want her to miss me, miss what we had as a family and not allow any cake eating ... but I also do not want to miss out on a chance to improve the relationship. Thoughts?
Hi Caliguy. Ok I am no expert and no Vet yet and have made a lot of mistakes! But I will give you my thoughts. It sounds like from your postings you have passed on quite a few things. I think it is getting some results, right?
But Trick or Treating is more about your S. That might be a good chance for you to do something together as a family, for him. It would mean the world to S, right? And maybe give W a taste of what she is risking losing.
Just my thoughts. I'm curious to see what others think.
I do have a dilemma I would love to get advice on. This morning ... she then said she wanted to take him trick or treating at our old neighborhood and she asked if I wanted to join them. I am on the fence here, I want her to miss me, miss what we had as a family and not allow any cake eating ... but I also do not want to miss out on a chance to improve the relationship. Thoughts?
Hi Caliguy, it seems like there are a lot of good things going on in your life. Keep up the good work.
On the Halloween thing, I am not sure why you are weighing what your going trick or treating with s7 will do to your W? If you go, it may improve your relationship with your W? And if you don't go, maybe it will make her miss you? It seems like you are still too focused on your W. Detach!
And the Halloween thing? Yes mleigh is right, keep your focus on your s7. And what do YOU want to do? Will it be fun night out, is this something you enjoy? Your actions on something like this are not that important to your relationship, so stop trying to make it more important than it is. Just my .02 worth.
I couldn't agree more - what is it a strong man of the house wants to do for Halloween
?
2: I have contacted an online university and will be compleing my degree, I need about 1-2 years and I will have my degree, its expensive .. but something I want to accomplish
Can I make a suggestion? I also went back to school. It was part of the plan after ex finished her degrees, and I stuck to it. I have been doing distance education for many years. Some of the online courses are incredibly expensive but really offer very little. I found one, wgu.edu that's been very good. Almost done with that (few more months, hopefully). Been at it for several years now. Very affordable, especially compared to the others I've tried. Even the local jc.
Running. I've been sidelined with a leg issue off and on for two years. Recently it got really bad, as in I could barely walk. Went to a chiro friend of mine (last time I tried pt) and he seems to have a handle on it. Turns out the back problem may be due to hip flexor tightness. Situps, running, biking, and lots of sitting (I have a desk job) all contribute. As I've been working through the stretches etc, I find I am feeling much much better. Should be back to running in November.
My point? Don't forget the stretching! It's an important part of the workout.
As for the rest. One of the hardest parts is giving it to God, and not taking it back from time to time. As if we know better
AJ
"I couldn't agree more - what is it a strong man of the house wants to do for Halloween? "
Sounds like good advice to me.
Hey CaliGuy-
I so understand the "should I go, should I not" thinking? I am also focusing on trying to create situations where H will know what he is missing yet balance it with opportunities to have positive interactions.
Based on recent conversations it looks like my H is going to finalize the D, yet I can tell he still cares for me and sounds like it is the same with your W. I felt that same wave of sadness you describe- how did we get here????
The advice above made me think some- we should do what we want to do for us. Thats hard for me as I analyze and try to modify each situation to what I think might help. Maybe we should both give that up and just start taking care of us and giving it to God.
Easier said than done for sure!!!
Thank you all for your input/advice, rather than quote everyone ... I will address a couple points that stood out for me.
Yes ... Halloween was one of my favorite Holidays, not carving the pumpkins ... all that.... I caught myself shortly after posting this ...I was trying to make it about me, my hurt, my pain ... and that hurts S, something I do not want. So yes I have decided I will be there with him .. and her, walking around the old neighborhood, enjoying the night with him.
The other thing, giving my marriage and her to God. That is the hard part, I am my own worst problem when it comes to that. Letting go and letting God is what I have done .. but at times I get involved and try to push to far, to much. Something for me to work on.
Update Time / Journal if you will ....
So, Friday I had S at soccer practice, I am the Asst. Coach, the head coach was gone so it was me and the kids ... I know little about soccer, but I always have been a kid favorite, 7-8 year olds .. we were having a blast just playing. W shows up and was watching .. I did not notice her right off .. seen her and I waved ... no response .. but I was PMA and having fun .. shrugged it off. She walks around the park ... came near me and I asked how she was ... her reply was "I'm ok" ... obviously something wrong but I did not push. Figured she was ill ... so I let her be. I finished up .. got S loaded into the car .. told her I hoped she felt better and to have a good night .... as she drove off she gave me the death eyes ... shrugged that off too and just figured she was having a bad day. Then I realized ... its her brother, PLUS ... yup .. had to look .. her PMS cycle is due. I track it as I have said .. its intel for me, to know when not to push and stay guarded around her. It has helped so much over the past 3-4 months.
About 7 or so she TM asking if I have left for work, told her I just got out of the shower and asked if everything was ok, she told me she had tightness in her chest but it went away, I asked if it was stress ... and yup .. confirmed the BIL sitch was getting to her. I told her I understood that and that she was under alot of pressure, had alot going on but for her to please let me know that she is ok, or if she needed anything. Late that night I was working at the club, 1:20 she TM me asking if I was still awake. Told her I was .. almost done with the night and about set to go home, asked if she was ok. She then said she was ok, she was sorry for everything, was feeling "overwhelming feelings of guilt" .... This is total PMS stuff with her, I would get pulled in here in the past only for the next day to end up like nothing was said. So I took it for what it was worth, told her if she wanted to talk I would be done in a few minutes ... did not hear anything from her the rest of the night.
Saturday ... very quiet ... went to the soccer game, she was buisness as usual, this neighbor friendly stuff bugs me but I take it with a grain of salt and realize its better than adding fights and negativity. So after the game I walk them to the car and she hops in and tells me to have a nice day. Kinda bugged me and sent me into that "How did we get here" road. I got home .. did laundry and cleaned ... not GAL .. just stuff that I wanted to get done. Then just as I was about to mope around the house .. my roomate asked if I wanted to go for a ride .. I almost declined but decided .. yeah .. lets go. 2 hour ride .. came home .. showered .. watched a movie .. chalked up the day as a win, as I would normally be in my room alone doing nothing .. 180 for me.
Sunday woke early .. went to early morning mass .. TM W that I would pick up S after (Did not invite them as she can never get up and out that early). Arrived shortly after mass S was ready to go .. excited about part of the day I told him I had planned. W asked what we were doing, I sent S to the car and told her I promised him we would go to a couple comic book stores, then was going to suprise him and buy him the new bike I have wanted to get him for the past few months ... eat .. then after take him, the bike, and our dog to "our" lake and go for a walk/ride ... told her she was welcome to join us. She told me she was not feeling well, might have plans to meet a gf of hers, but would let me know ... she said she was on her period .. and I told her "I know ..started Friday" ... she joked and laughed ... i told her I track it like the weather guys track hurricanes. She laughed at this, I wished her to feel better and told her I would TM a couple hours before we were set to go.... she did meet us there. We had a nice walk, was very pleasant. I considered it a win for the day.
Just some observations lately. Like I said before I felt her pull back/away .. chalking this upto the Limbo-Rollercoaster that we all lovingly call MLC ... this was bugging me, I only get little glimpses of the girl I know and love, then other times its like looking into a dead fish's eyes. However ... lately the past week or so she TM often using our S as an excuse, sharing things, telling me he has been reading for an hour, sending a pic of him at a burger place eating etc. I do not reply right away on all ... not sure why she does this. She has told me that he and her have been getting along very well, appears she has stopped TM OM in front of him .. he mentioned that the other day .. then again I am not so sure OM is even in the picture by a few of her remarks. I am not going to mind read or guess .. just trying to sort through the info I have.
I try to look for positives, I have a gut feeling W is just trying to sort herself out, by being alone. Holidays are coming .. have no idea what to expect ... .part of me wonders if she is just trying to get through them then pursue the D after. Again .. mind reading I know .. the limbo is just tough at times, but I realized if she were want to "be married" we have so much to work through. We are both working on ourselves at the moment and all I can do is work on me, and stay focused on that.
Ok .. So random thoughts here ... things in my head
What happens when and if BOTH spouses hit MLC at the same time?? Can you imagine?
How long can a separation go before .. its just accepted and its not an option to be back together?
I heard Billy Joel's "My Life" .... after my experience I am convinced this is about MLC...lol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpaQQCGko5E
Hi Caliguy,
On the separation thing, I read that after three years of separation there is no chance for reconciliation (sorry, I don't remember where I saw it) - it either turns into a divorce or they just continued living their lives as being separated. I have always kept that as sort of my outward fence that I would not pass given W and I are now separated 16 months.
Billy Joel, always has a fond place in my heart. When I got my first stereo, my first 8 track was Billy Joel's "Stranger'. Loved it!
Wet
Thanks for the reply .. I think I seen Mr Bond went 3 years ... not that I was expecting to go that long .. but then again I never thought I would be here a year after either. I did not start DB until about 10 months after BD ... I honestly feel I would have had a better chance .. but then again I am not sure I would have seen the MLC issues there either as I was entirely focused on OM.
At this point I am in a better place, ME .. my marriage .. eh limbo, the exchanges are cordial but there is little to no connection as of late and that worries me .. atleast when we fought it felt like we both in our wild way were fighting for the M
MLC is a whole different beast, so timetables, limits, etc don't necessarily apply to standard stats and theories.
Cali
I'll say something to you that was once said to me.....
You and only you determine when this is over.
Timetables....are sometimes used as an excuse to ourselves...cause the alternative is too hard. Focus on YOU and YOU alone. As for time.....one day at a time.
Cali...
Well F-cicles....
Timetables....???
The only thing you do when you create a timetable, is to establish the date when you are gonna quit...
Cause IF you impose one, and you enact it. No matter how good or lousy that you feel on that date, you will walk away not knowing what the end could be.....
One thing that I did, was to give myself a two-year plan (once I understood MLC).
I gave myself two years, BEFORE I would make ANY major life changing decisions about my life.
And I had faith that no matter what, I would spend that time, understanding myself, and getting to know who I was, so that I could handle any decision that I made after those two years. And I had the Faith, that whatever was to happen after those two years, was meant to be....
Would YOU give two years of your life, to have a chance at a fifty year anniversary with your spouse ?
Yea, thought so....
And also, remember that your limbo, is something that YOU chose...
And it really isn't that bad, or really that "real". It's about YOUR choices Cali....
Cali
I'll say something to you that was once said to me.....
You and only you determine when this is over.
Timetables....are sometimes used as an excuse to ourselves...cause the alternative is too hard. Focus on YOU and YOU alone. As for time.....one day at a time.
I completely understand that ... and like most I think I have my good .. I can do this till I have to phase .. and my .. hands up in the air defeated days .. I just worry about losing all connection with someone I have spent 24 years with ... waiting for her to poke out of the tunnel. I do feel, I married a smart woman (mind read here) .. .I think at first she avoided the D due to confusion and emotion .. but later realized the financial aspect .. I give about 200% or more so than I would be required, so as of now .. its ok, I just wonder how long till this either blows up .. or we start deciding to fix this. I am using time as my friend
One of my Jim Conway books describes a marriage disrupted by MLC in which the wife waited 8 years before her man came home. I doubt I could wait that long. I tend to think women would be more likely to wait than men, but still. How long is too long?
I think if the WAS got married, I'd give up. If they started living with the OP, I'd give up. But then, I always thought I'd give up right away if my H had an affair, and look what happened there. I think it really depends on you and your sitch, like ericmsant2 said.
Thank you Nitty ... yeah I do not have a time line, sure I hate limbo and being alone.. but in all honesty I want MY family, and even if it is over right now its not like I want someone else in my life .. I still need to get my chit together, and most my focus lately has shifted off her and towards myself.
Just a bit of a journal .. I do feel it helps to get thoughts down/out ... and I have often gone back and read where I was and it helps knowing I have made progress.
So yesterday I was reading another thread and there were vets out with amazing advice and a few 2x4's .... sometimes our sitches have similar issues/vibes .. and I feel I can take just as much if not more away from reading another thread as I do my own because ironically I am in a sense detachment reading someone else's while in mine I am emotionally vested. Anyways I seen some of my traits and ones I know I need to change, even IC said I need to be more assertive. I bought and read NMMNG long before I came to DB, its on my tablet phone .. however I decided to do something differently. I ordered a hard copy of that and "Hold on to yout N.U.T.S." and figured on my free nights (Which I have many of now that I am in-between seasons in softball and football till Jan) I would ride the Harley to the beach and read for a bit. I am actually looking forward to this. I also plan on going to a RCIA program starting tonight until I complete the course at the church. GAL activities that I feel work on me, get me out, and something I just feel good about. I looked at my bills, I should have 2 big items paid off by years end and that frees up a good chunk of money monthly ... possible get a better place, not sure just yet but my PMA has been great lately even though the sitch is still limbo.... thing is .. I am working on me and I can feel it. Detached a bit better this past week.
So as far as the W goes .. I think I mentioned it before. Lately for whatever reason she seems chipper, she has been really working on her R with S and seems to be much better. I am happy for that ... however she seems to text me alot more just concerning him, sending pictures of him at school, even this morning she sent a picture of when he was like 1 years old wearing this ridiculous pumpkin hat I always teased her about. The exchanges have been very pleasant, I am not reading anything into them at all .. no expectations honestly .. but something tells me that the key to this very well may be the family angle and my son .. who knows.
Yesterday I dropped S off ... along with the tax docs I needed to apply for my school ... I noticed we had a major problem .. we received a refund which was great .. but I noticed on the docs the tax guy did not include her wages ( WTF>?) so I asked her about this. My thoughts were ... 1 they messed up big time .. or two we filed married but separate , so why did I share MY refund with her. I stayed cool and showed her the issue .. sure enough they messed up and we will now most likely owe ... she actually thanked me for catching the mistake ( Who is this woman??) She picked up S yesterday, I was PMA and asked her that I had something going on for Wednesdays (The RCIA program at church) and really need her to pick up S on time ... ofcourse she resists, has to have it her way ... I calmly told her that I am trying to make plans for myself and its the only night I need her to be on time, I do not want to fight about it. This calmed her a bit .. then she asked worst case if she were late where she could get him (I took a breathe .. sometimes her selfishness bugs me .. but I did well) I told her I am not sure .. but would imagine she could and told her the church. I wanted to be mysterious .. but I think she figured things out and seemed to really calm her.
This morning she TM the pic of S, told me they wrestled a bit, I TM back saying how big and strong he is getting, just light hearted TM and left it at that. She could have very well stayed dark ... not sure why she is using S lately as a way to TM ... but I will accept them as its better than silence.
Hi Cali! Try to look at this time as not waiting in limbo, but as living a new life. It can be as exciting and fulfilling as you make it to be. If you truly want to outlast the crisis you have to let go of wondering "how long".
I'm learning it's all about perspective. Time flies when you're having fun.
Lately for whatever reason she seems chipper, she has been really working on her R with S and seems to be much better. I am happy for that ... however she seems to text me alot more just concerning him, sending pictures of him at school, even this morning she sent a picture of when he was like 1 years old wearing this ridiculous pumpkin hat I always teased her about. The exchanges have been very pleasant, I am not reading anything into them at all .. no expectations honestly .. but something tells me that the key to this very well may be the family angle and my son .. who knows.
I've watched my W go through periods of "chipper" followed by periods of depression. People in crisis will try all sorts of things to make their pain go away, often jumping around from one thing to the next. I'm sure you'll agree that focusing on son and interacting with you is a lot more constructive than many other things she could be doing. Enjoy and make the most of it! Try to build on it.
FY .. Ironic .. I just read/caught up on your sitch!! And I respect you .. and your advice tremndously
You are right .. and slowly I have turned the corner with my clock watching .. its just close to the 1 year date of her moving out so it was on my mind... but you are right .. this new life I have as of late been making the most of. Just talked to a buddy, he offered me some sausage he made, and I took that chance to try to get together soon and do some GAL activity (He and I play Softball/Football together) I realized I need to work on my male friendships more.
And great point ... she could be doing a number of "chipper" activities that could be considered less constructive.
Just logging in some
Yesterday was a good day for me. I was just content .. It seems to be a rare thing dealing with this MLC thing .. but I gave it to God, and actually let Him have it for the day. I TM W around 2 or so ... confirming she was picking up S (I ALWAYS get him, but she went to a Dr appt and told me she would pick him up) ... she replied that she was about to TM me, she stopped off and was eating at a place we both enjoy .. I told her I was starving and that sounded so good.... she sent a picture and a LOL "Sorry had to" ... even said she would bring some if I wanted (Wow .. was that a nice gesture??) I told her it was ok, enjoy her meal .. and left it at that. She TM once she picked up S, I told her to enjoy him and the evening.
I rode the Harley into work, left on time and went home, relaxed for about an hour and went to my first RCIA meeting, it was nice .. I just felt that was where I needed to be. Met a couple people, they served some food, listened to a Deacon ... ironically about marriage, and staying focused on what is truly important. S called to say goodnight but I was still in the class, so it went to VM ... a bit after 8 I was out, and just did not want to go home, decided to ride about 30 minutes to a place where my good friend does Karaoke, he is Christian and completely knows my sitch ... he went through similar about 5 years ago ... ended up divorced but is happily remarried and has a wonderful family. So hung out there till about 11 and rode home. W did TM about 9 or so ... "I do not understand Walking Dead" ... I laughed ... I had mentioned last week I was about done with the series ... guess she was looking for things to watch .. I find it funny because I do see her as a Zombie in the MLC ... its helped me detach seeing her this way. The TM yesterday were the first that were not about S in weeks, I responded in kind, but did not pursue nor do I expectr anything to come of it.
At the moment I am in a good place, I feel refreshed to replace Softball with going to church on Wednesday nights, and can still go to mass Sat or Sun ... Saturday morning I am going to the harley meetings they have... trying to make new friends is hard for me, but I am atleast putting myself out there. I figured after that I will ride to the coast and read a bit .. then S soccer and who knows whats up for the night.
Friday is Halloween... W has not brought it up .. but I will join them if she invites me, its for S, and a chance for me to show my PMA, I am actually looking forward to it.
So .... after work W TM me, telling me the plans for Halloween with S and asked if I would like to be a part of it .. I replied "I would love to be a part of that , Thank you" .. her reply ... "Of course you are his father" ... What I read " Sure because you are just his father not my husband" .. I took it as a total gut punch ... did not reply .. but it hurt. Just then, the radio was on (I do listen to Christian radio from time to time) and it said "Ever have a battle that just is not going your way .. just know that God works in ways you can not see" .... I thanked Him ... and let my angst go right there.
However I have been struggling with something .... W is Catholic, as is her entire family .. but obviously the MLC .. OM ... has given her a good deal to reconcile with God about. My issue ... I just started the RCIA program to become Catholic .... for me, not her .. I promised to raise my son this way and felt I need to become Catholic to do this, be a father figure that he respects, and I want to be the spiritual leader in my household. Maybe some Catholics can help me here (I plan on asking a Deacon or a Priest , one of the Sacraments is marriage, you only get one of these unless your spouse dies... I was married in a Catholic Church. If I go through with the RCIA program and she does end up divorcing me .. regardless of my wishes, attempts to salvage the M ... am I forever in sin, or can I even re marry ... the church is a very big deal for me ... seems like a waste to do this RCIA program that I really want .. for me and my S .. if after it all I am basically black-listed and could not go to communion and receive the Eucharist.
I am a little ... I dont know .. discouraged in a way .. but when I prayed today I told God, I trust in him, and regardless I choose him .. if I am to be alone ... so be it.
Ok ... I need Help and Advice here... Please
So foolishly .. I thought OM was out of the picture. He is not. I have S(7) tonight and he called her just as he always does, gets off the phone and tells me, Dad I have to tell you something I almost forgot. So .. last night when he called me, he looked at her call log and she is still talking to him, S7 knows who he is, knows whats going on .. ... if you missed early in my sitch she exposed OM and his 2 kids to S7 as "play dates" early on .. I flipped when I found out .. this was last year.
So now .. I am upset .. but more than that .. disappointed. S7 deserves better, this will effect him for life ya know? He actually prayed on his own tonight for God to help his mother stop doing what was wrong.
I know there is nothing I can do .. but seriously .. this is about a year of on and off with OM and should it ran its course by now. Should I just drop rope and let my M go and press for D. Expose OM to her family that would devastate her ... none of these actions really will help save the M and family I want .. or thought I want. Is this just more MLC crap and I need to patiently wait.
I will say this . I am not as floored or upset as I was months ago .. detaching must be taking root.
I know I will not have answers or advice by the time I drop S off tomorrow ... I will just try to PMA and let it go, but I am just ashamed of her at this point.
Cali Guy,
I know this must have been painful to discover. However, I'm betting it wasn't terribly shocking.
Only you can decide when enough is enough. However, I'm always a bit perplexed when people think affairs will fizzle out by a certain point. They last as long as they last...could be 3 months to never. Please know I don't say that to be harsh-just an honest observation.
If you aren't ready to d, then don't press for D. I don't think exposing the affair is a good move either. What does Cali Guy want?
Hang in there:-)
Georgiabell
Thank you ... and yes .. it was not a shock, she was not connecting the past 3 weeks like she was before ... its like she comes out .. takes a look .. and back in the tunnel she goes. I was a little disappointed .. but there is little I can do.
I do not want the D, I guess sometimes you get this urge like you can fix it, have to fix it, that you will go desperate and try anything .. I am off the ledge now, but I will admit a touch defeated at the moment. I will put on my PMA jacket today as hard as it will be to drop off S and do the HAlloween thing tonight knowing this new information.
Strange ... I have said in the past she always knows how to keep me close ... its uncanny. She has no idea I found out this new info from S ... yet at 2 this AM she TM asking if I was awake. Not sure what for, I stopped having the phone chime for TM some bit ago .. there was a time I would have replied. Time will tell, this is all in Gods hands at the moment and all I can do is worry about me.
So I drop off S ... W seems chipper enough. I ask S to grab my ball cap he borrowed and W gave me his Halloween outfit for tonight. Then she asked if I got her text, I told her I did not see it until this morning, I asked if she was ok. She was upset at this .. said she didnt feel well "But it doesnt matter" .. I told her she could have called .. then she said I never pick up and she didnt want to wake me ... yet she is upset obviously I was not there on the spot for her ... I LOVE you MLC ... took all my being not to spit out "You should have called your boyfriend" ... I got down to my sons level and wished him a wonderful day .. and left.
Damn, that's tough, Caliguy.
First, on the Catholic issue. Talk to a priest. Talk to a couple of priests! Get a number of opinions. Change is afoot in the Church. Here's a news article about
possible changes the Pope may be proposing on D.
Not sure what to say about your W, except bam, she was guilty and out pops that ugly MLC Blame again. The MLC Zombie... so aptly described. All the rot and decay that was on the inside is now revealed on the outside, even S7 can see it.
I am glad you've got what looks like some seasoned male friends who can advise you and show you there is a good life for you no matter what the outcome.
I wanted to add: I've spent some time studying Mark 10: 4-11 (natch, considering my sitch).
Every time I read it I get the same thing out of it. Some of us humans have such hard hearts that they see D as a permissible way to escape their marriage (your W, my H at one point). God allowed D to happen in such a case (through Moses) because of the hardness of those hearts. He allowed a law to be written.
But Jesus was clear that the person doing the D (H or W) was committing adultery if they remarry. He said absolutely nothing about the LBS being D by their hard-hearted WAS. I took comfort in that. To me, what Jesus says (or didn't say) trumps everything.
Does that mean that the spouse of [an abusive / adulterous / addicted / etc.] person is sinning by petitioning for D?
I don't know. That's God's business, not mine. But for my sitch and yours, I believe we're the ones who were getting axed by D, not doing the axing.
I am so sorry CaliGuy- my H only had an EA but that was devastating enough, I can't even imagine how you are feeling. Sending ((hugs))!
I agree with Georgiabelle though- don't make any rash decisions based on your emotional response in the moment. From what I've read this far I don't think you are ready to throw in the towel.
I also want to give you some insight into what a wonderful son you have! I was that kid too- but the opposite. My dad was having an affair for years and I was introduced to her as his colleague. He lied to me for years and when I figured it out I told my mom. She handled it very different than you are- she put me in the middle and would get angry that I still loved my dad and was trying to have a relationship with him while navigating my own confusion over the situation.
You are being a loving and supportive father that is trying to keep your son out of the middle as much as possible. The fact that he prays for his mom is a beautiful thing. You can't prevent the impact on him but you are softening it significantly with how you are handling it. That will make a big difference for him as a husband and father later.
Damn, that's tough, Caliguy.
First, on the Catholic issue. Talk to a priest. Talk to a couple of priests! Get a number of opinions. Change is afoot in the Church. Here's a news article about
possible changes the Pope may be proposing on D.
Not sure what to say about your W, except bam, she was guilty and out pops that ugly MLC Blame again. The MLC Zombie... so aptly described. All the rot and decay that was on the inside is now revealed on the outside, even S7 can see it.
I am glad you've got what looks like some seasoned male friends who can advise you and show you there is a good life for you no matter what the outcome.
Nitty thank you so much for your words... I followed your sitch and like I said before .. you have been inspirational for me.
It is what it is ... I have no idea what is going on or to what extent. I do know weekends she may have seen him on a Saturday .. I think Mondays are and have been "their" day ... not like it all matters but I am past getting completely distraught about it. It does explain the spew from a few weeks ago, making me back into that person she justifies leaving.
As far as the Church thing, yeah I plan on talking to a priest .. but like I said. I have given my marriage and my wife to God, and regardless of what happens I know I will be in a better place. I am on the right path .. sure I have my bumps and things I must always work on .. But I am a great father, and will continue to grow as a man .. and one day God willing a husband (Regardless who the W may be if that's in the cards at all)
I wanted to add: I've spent some time studying Mark 10: 4-11 (natch, considering my sitch).
Every time I read it I get the same thing out of it. Some of us humans have such hard hearts that they see D as a permissible way to escape their marriage (your W, my H at one point). God allowed D to happen in such a case (through Moses) because of the hardness of those hearts. He allowed a law to be written.
But Jesus was clear that the person doing the D (H or W) was committing adultery if they remarry. He said absolutely nothing about the LBS being D by their hard-hearted WAS. I took comfort in that. To me, what Jesus says (or didn't say) trumps everything.
Does that mean that the spouse of [an abusive / adulterous / addicted / etc.] person is sinning by petitioning for D?
I don't know. That's God's business, not mine. But for my sitch and yours, I believe we're the ones who were getting axed by D, not doing the axing.
I was knee deep for some time .. I have not just sat and read The Word in some time .. I do listen to sermons everyday.
My readings lead me to this .. God does not like divorce, however when adultry is commited we have 2 choices... divorce or forgive. I think that is my question with the Catholic church .. they do not have this outlook ... while other Christian churches have thie loophole built in.
I am no saint .. I get that... nor am I holier than thou ... however I have turned things around in my life and was hoping the rest of my life would follow suit .. He still has alot of work to do with her, and I am not the most patient person in the world. Thing is .. while I was oblivious we were getting along fine .. it just stings thinking I was proud of her for just sticking to herself and trying to be alone for a bit ... turns out she was never alone .. its either with OM .. or she returns to me to an extent ... total cake-buffet and I had no idea. Lesson learned .. and I will continue to work on what I can ... Me
I am so sorry CaliGuy- my H only had an EA but that was devastating enough, I can't even imagine how you are feeling. Sending ((hugs))!
I agree with Georgiabelle though- don't make any rash decisions based on your emotional response in the moment. From what I've read this far I don't think you are ready to throw in the towel.
I also want to give you some insight into what a wonderful son you have! I was that kid too- but the opposite. My dad was having an affair for years and I was introduced to her as his colleague. He lied to me for years and when I figured it out I told my mom. She handled it very different than you are- she put me in the middle and would get angry that I still loved my dad and was trying to have a relationship with him while navigating my own confusion over the situation.
You are being a loving and supportive father that is trying to keep your son out of the middle as much as possible. The fact that he prays for his mom is a beautiful thing. You can't prevent the impact on him but you are softening it significantly with how you are handling it. That will make a big difference for him as a husband and father later.
Daring .. thank you so much for taking the time here. And no .. I am not throwing in the towel .. stomping around throwing a mini fit maybe .. but I am back to center now.
Few things I thought about from this ... and you are right .. S is an amazing little boy, it kills me he is as exposed to OM as he was, and now obviously sees his mom as a sinner, and a cheater .. he does not know about the MLC thing but I did try to explain to him why I have not left her as best as I can without appearing weak.
I too ... was exposed to my mother cheating .. my father was always away for work .. I am sure they both had PA's ... but they loved each other. I honestly never respected my mother much because of this .... and now its repeating itself in my marriage. Its a shame .. but she created this .. not me .. she was doing well at fixing things between he and her .. but I see the confusion with him, how can he trust her knowing she has decided to choose this other guy ... again .. I can not do much but be his hero the best I can.
Speeds up my plan of a better living sitch for he I and our dog. Jan 1st I will be focused on that completely.
I'm so sorry you found this new information regarding OM. I can only imagine how much that must hurt.
Nitty's words of wisdom make sense to me. You are a loving spouse standing by his M and family, attempting to work it out. God knows the truth, right?
I have given my marriage and my wife to God, and regardless of what happens I know I will be in a better place. I am on the right path .. sure I have my bumps and things I must always work on .. But I am a great father, and will continue to grow as a man .. and one day God willing a husband (Regardless who the W may be if that's in the cards at all)
Considering the cards you've been dealt, I feel you are doing well. I have confidence that you will continue to so. Bust On, Mr Cali, you got this.
I'm so sorry you found this new information regarding OM. I can only imagine how much that must hurt.
Nitty's words of wisdom make sense to me. You are a loving spouse standing by his M and family, attempting to work it out. God knows the truth, right?
Considering the cards you've been dealt, I feel you are doing well. I have confidence that you will continue to so. Bust On, Mr Cali, you got this.
FY Thank you so much ... You of all people I could learn a bit of patience from .... you seem to have truck loads of it parked in your driveway!!
The funny thing is .. thinking about it .. I am in a way releived. I was starting to fear she was getting used to being alone. But in another way I am disappointed because I was actually proud of her for starting some independence, but this all does explain her actions towards me the past 3-4 weeks.
And yes .. I will carry on as I have been.
How did last night go Caliguy?
How did last night go Caliguy?
Not good .. .not good at all. I will try to recall as much as I can .. ALOT was said.
So I had S .. everything was fine .. she wanted to take him to the neighborhood we lived in, its really nice and everyone is into Halloween.
I decided I was not going to bring it up, ust fake it .. and get through the night as we have been getting along. She asked what was wrong .. I told her I had alot on my mind .. she kept pressing .. thats her thing .. the woman never lets up .. so I told her S seen she is still talking to this guy, that S prayed for her ... prayed that she stop sinning... and I put 2 and 2 together and realized its been the past couple weeks. Right after she picked a fight .. (MLC Script here) I did get some good truths in, was calm at first but being in that old neighborhood realizing she was with this guy and lying to me back then, ruining all the Holidays .. I was not doing well.
She did her spew, that she is involved with him, I need to get over it .. bla bla ... so I returned fire and dropped the only bomb I have. I told her we are still married, she is still my wife and I will fight for my family .. she said her relationship with him is none of my business I told her it in fact is MY business as my family and my wife are completely my business and I will no longer just stand around.
We did this inbetween S gong to the houses .. was almost funny .. Oh hey buddy what did ya get ... to fighting. So anyways .. I then she said she wants the divorce just was waiting till her brother stuff was done and was looking to file after the year, I told her .. OK .. .I will have a talk with OM, I also plan on talking to her entire family and exposing her little secret .. this flipped her out. Honestly I do not want to do either and know it would be bad .. but part of me does .. will it win her back .. no .. but it does show I will fight for this. I am still thinking about this .. I am also thinking if I really want this M ... I just dont know anymore.
I did set a boundary during this fight .. no more texts or phone calls about us .. all discussions will be in person, so I can make sure I am clear and not misunderstood .. nor hung up on and vice versa. she blew up my phone .. even tried calling while I was working Halloween ... I DJ'd and not like I can answer ... she tried again today.... I held firm
So I did get some good darts in .. she asked why I wanted to be with her, I told her she matters to me .. my family matters to me .. she brought up my newfound religious activities .. I told her I wanted to be there for her .. she brought up I had the chance the other night but didnt answer/reply ... totally not fair .. 2 in the morning ... I did not bring up the fact that she is not calling texting Om when she is sick .. but thats what she does.
I also put 2 n 2 together ... seems OM is the one that calls it off with her, and then contacts her and off she goes. Not that it matters .. but seems she is more into him than he is into her.
So ... I am not sure what or where I am at honestly .. just kinda numb today, detached .. maybe its LRT time .. but I am more of the opinion of just living my life .. maybe she comes out of the tunnel .. maybe she never does .. I try to remind myself its in Gods hands .. but I am not to happy with His way of dealing with this .. it could honestly be less painful. Had S not told me what he did .. it would have been avoided completely .. I would have been blind to it all and able to show all my progress ..... she did comment I looked good and lost wiehgt .. and liked my Harley hoodie ... all these positives went out the window shortly after.
Ouch. Sorry to hear, Cali.
You said a lot, maybe too much? It certainly put her on the defensive.
But if you made a firm line in the sand then that should be upheld.
My suggestion would be no relationship talks at all... they never help at this point unless you want reason to end the M. Just try to be friendly when interacting.
Try not to worry too much about what was said last night. This one interaction is not going to end your M. Bust On, my friend!
Sorry to hear about this Cali,
The one small point you made about not liking "His" (God's) way of dealing with this...I thought that many times but what we both need to remember is that God gave us all a great gift...free will. He allows everyone to make their own choices. He can only guide us. It's your W's choice to see OM, God can only show your W through consequences whether her choices are "right or wrong". Remember you also have free will to make your own choices, you are as free to make good one's as you are free to make bad ones and you also have to live with the consequences of those choices.
Hang in there Cali. Be the good father you are being now. Make the choices that you will be proud you made no matter what happens with your M in the end!
Hi Caliguy,
I can understand your dilemma. I am christian and my wife is catholic and believe me there is a difference. The differences can be a whole discussion unto itself. Your first concern should be about forgiveness. Remember that Christ made the ultimate sacrifice to teach us this. Every time you question whether you can forgive remember what he said on the cross, "Forgive them father for they know not what they do." I believe this one statement is the foundation for Christianity. It does not say forgive and forget, just forgive. What you choose to do after you forgive is your own free will.
I don't believe any church should look down on you or exclude you if you are divorced by your spouse. If they do, then I don't really consider them Christian. I would challenge anyone to find where Christ said it was ok to exclude some people from his church or limit their participation. So, if your wife divorces you, I feel that burden is on her when she has to face our maker and try to explain her decisions.
Hope I have not offended anyone. I don't consider myself limited by being a member of one religious group. I read the bible and relate what I read to what I am being taught. If they don't correlate then for me the bible wins every time as people have been known to make mistakes.
I'm sorry Caliguy. I was hoping for better than that. I admire the way you told her she IS your business. These MLC's seem to think they can wake up one day and decide they don't need to follow any marriage boundaries. It's really good that you set out that boundary. I have found that for the most part, R talks don't do much good for making us feel better. However, when they are used to express your feelings and set boundaries, I don't know, I have gotten some good results from that. Let it sit with her for a while. You let her know where you stand and I think that is important. I can guess you are a much better man than this guy getting involved with a married woman with a family. Remember that when you look in the mirror. Be the person you are proud of and keep that mirror with you. Chin up, you can do this. Be the example for S, he is watching. You are a good man to fight for your family and beliefs!
Hang in there. Do something during these really tough times that makes you feel better.
She did her spew, that she is involved with him, I need to get over it .. bla bla ...
...
so I returned fire and dropped the only bomb I have. I told her we are still married, she is still my wife and I will fight for my family .. she said her relationship with him is none of my business I told her it in fact is MY business as my family and my wife are completely my business and I will no longer just stand around.
...
I told her I wanted to be there for her .. she brought up I had the chance the other night but didnt answer/reply ... totally not fair .. 2 in the morning ... I did not bring up the fact that she is not calling texting Om when she is sick .. but thats what she does.
I then she said she wants the divorce just was waiting till her brother stuff was done and was looking to file after the year,
All of this stuff is exactly the kind of stuff I heard from my H. Everything she spewed is still MLC 101.
I told her .. OK .. .I will have a talk with OM, I also plan on talking to her entire family and exposing her little secret .. this flipped her out. Honestly I do not want to do either and know it would be bad .. but part of me does .. will it win her back .. no .. but it does show I will fight for this. I am still thinking about this .. I am also thinking if I really want this M ... I just dont know anymore.
I've seen two definite schools of thought on this.
1) Classic DB: "Exposing the PA, Confronting OP, Etc. = Major No-No". The first DB coach I spoke with called this "punishing behavior". I have problems with there being a one-size fits all approach to all of our situations. But if it's done in anger or thrown out during a fight, then it may result in a situation for which you haven't prepared yourself.
2) DB 2.0 (as practiced by people like Starsky when Mrs. Starsky couldn't give up her OM) = This may be what needs to be done, but only if a) it is not a manipulative attempt to win her back and b) you are prepared for the end of the M.
I did set a boundary during this fight .. no more texts or phone calls about us .. all discussions will be in person, so I can make sure I am clear and not misunderstood .. nor hung up on and vice versa. she blew up my phone .. even tried calling while I was working Halloween ... I DJ'd and not like I can answer ... she tried again today.... I held firm
I tried that, too, but often got sucked back into it when he would deliberately say things that weren't true (or maybe he believed they were true, who knows). Like "You could never forgive me, you only ever kept throwing OW in my face!" And when I got sucked back into it, things got worse, so if you can hold firm, all the better.
I printed out
Puppy's/Starsky's post of boundaries vs controlling behavior and pinned it to my wall, where I could read it every day. It definitely helped me whenever talks turned to R.
I also put 2 n 2 together ... seems OM is the one that calls it off with her, and then contacts her and off she goes. Not that it matters .. but seems she is more into him than he is into her.
I thought that when I read your last post about S finding OM's texts. Did you tell her this? What did she say?
So ... I am not sure what or where I am at honestly .. just kinda numb today, detached .. maybe its LRT time .. but I am more of the opinion of just living my life .. maybe she comes out of the tunnel .. maybe she never does .. I try to remind myself its in Gods hands .. but I am not to happy with His way of dealing with this .. it could honestly be less painful.
That kind of feeling always brought me back to Lt. Speir's speech from
Band of Brothers, which I edited for my own sitch.
We’re all scared. You hid in that ditch YOU ARE LOSING YOUR COOL because you think there’s still hope YOU ARE STILL NOT DETACHED. But Blithe, the only hope you have is to accept the fact that you are already dead DIVORCED. And the sooner you accept that the sooner you’ll be able to function as a soldier LBS is supposed to function. Without mercy FALSE HOPE. Without compassion DESPAIR. Without remorse ANY EXPECTATIONS. All war ALL DB-ING depends on it. --Lt. Ronald Speirs
Re-reading it every day put me in a different place, emotionally, like I was beyond the D. I certainly didn't hold myself together during D mediation, but I was able to pull myself back together more quickly when I already saw myself as a divorced woman.
Had S not told me what he did .. it would have been avoided completely ..
I think you should talk to S, tell him that he is a good kid, but he should stay out of his mom's phone, avoid looking for stuff for you. Kids are smart. I got caught up in this stuff with my mom and dad. Based on my personal experience, he is siding with you, not trusting his mom, learning he needs to see what she is "really doing", and I don't know, Caliguy, it seems like it's setting him up for future problems with women. Not ever trusting them, for example, no matter what the sitch, but always looking for a betrayal.
It's not your fault, it's just a kid trying to help his dad.
What if you were to plan for him to spend a lot of quality time with a female relative or friend who can show him that women can be trustworthy, that some of us stumble and fall and make bad decisions, but it doesn't mean all are like that?
I am so sorry you're in this foxhole right now.
Hi Caliguy,
I can understand your dilemma. I am christian and my wife is catholic and believe me there is a difference. The differences can be a whole discussion unto itself. Your first concern should be about forgiveness. Remember that Christ made the ultimate sacrifice to teach us this. Every time you question whether you can forgive remember what he said on the cross, "Forgive them father for they know not what they do." I believe this one statement is the foundation for Christianity. It does not say forgive and forget, just forgive. What you choose to do after you forgive is your own free will.
I don't believe any church should look down on you or exclude you if you are divorced by your spouse. If they do, then I don't really consider them Christian. I would challenge anyone to find where Christ said it was ok to exclude some people from his church or limit their participation. So, if your wife divorces you, I feel that burden is on her when she has to face our maker and try to explain her decisions.
Hope I have not offended anyone. I don't consider myself limited by being a member of one religious group. I read the bible and relate what I read to what I am being taught. If they don't correlate then for me the bible wins every time as people have been known to make mistakes.
Ironic you said that ... I will start a new thread, ALOT happened over the weekend ... however this morning my W looked a bit sad, I simply walked up and hugged her ... she said "How can you still love me so much after all I have done to you" My reply was "I forgive you" ... then she said something else but I cut her off and said "I forgive you" even firmer.
I'm sorry Caliguy. I was hoping for better than that. I admire the way you told her she IS your business. These MLC's seem to think they can wake up one day and decide they don't need to follow any marriage boundaries. It's really good that you set out that boundary. I have found that for the most part, R talks don't do much good for making us feel better. However, when they are used to express your feelings and set boundaries, I don't know, I have gotten some good results from that. Let it sit with her for a while. You let her know where you stand and I think that is important. I can guess you are a much better man than this guy getting involved with a married woman with a family. Remember that when you look in the mirror. Be the person you are proud of and keep that mirror with you. Chin up, you can do this. Be the example for S, he is watching. You are a good man to fight for your family and beliefs!
Hang in there. Do something during these really tough times that makes you feel better.
Mleigh .. yes I wish it would have gone better .. however this interaction, then going dark Saturday .. sparked a conversation Sunday morning. I will start a new thread .. stay tuned.
I've seen two definite schools of thought on this.
1) Classic DB: "Exposing the PA, Confronting OP, Etc. = Major No-No". The first DB coach I spoke with called this "punishing behavior". I have problems with there being a one-size fits all approach to all of our situations. But if it's done in anger or thrown out during a fight, then it may result in a situation for which you haven't prepared yourself.
2) DB 2.0 (as practiced by people like Starsky when Mrs. Starsky couldn't give up her OM) = This may be what needs to be done, but only if a) it is not a manipulative attempt to win her back and b) you are prepared for the end of the M.
Like I siad in my previous posts ... there is alot to add to my sitch ... new thread time anyways .. I will briefly touch on this now ...
Exposing the A and the OM, it is not a means to get her back .. I told her as such. There were several reasons I put it out there.
1. She has been allowed to have this little fantasy, I let it go thinking she would come to her senses and realize this guy was after one thing ... and its not long term. Its disrespectful to me, our M, our Family, disrespects her parents (who do not know) and its just wrong. Pulling the I am leaving card .. ok fine if the M is that bad .. but doing it so you can get away with your A ... no .. its wrong .. MLC or not.
2. If we D ... I do not want limbo like this for a couple years .. then she presents OM like they just met and it happened .... like I told her .. I will not be painted to be the bad guy that she has created in her head ... she left me for the OM, if she loves him that much and he means that much .. then she should be proud of it and shout it from the roof tops .. I want her that happy
3. Its a threat ... more to wake her up, she has had guilt over it for the past year, its wrong, against our religious beliefs ... and my last resort to trying to wake her up and make her think about all who it effects .... her family would never accept this. She was not raised this way.
So at the moment I have just shot across the bow and am waiting to see the ripple effect .... I have alot of news to add ... but its time for a new thread.