Magingmagic, where'dja go?? - DivorceBusting.com

I even finally found PEARLHARBR for you!!!

"Come baack, Shane . . .come baaaaack . . . . "

Ooops -- meant "MAKINGmagic" . . .

Too late to edit!

Starsky,

I don't think Shane came back. He rode off into the sunset.

Starsky,
If she has a need for additional advice, she'll return. Maybe she finally figured out what she wanted and didn't want to hear any more advice from us about dropping the rope. Whatever the reason, she's gone for now. Sometimes posters come, stay a while and then ride off into the sunset.

I understand, job. I only bumped the thread because I finally heard from Pearlharbr on FB, and she offered to check out the thread and clear up some of the mis-information about what she did to repair her relationship.

Too late, I guess.

Starsky

You did the best you could to try to help her. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if she's still reading the forums.

I wanna know, so please feel free to share pearl harbours stuff with me.

Parts of my next email are inspired by her letter about I will be married but that might not be you, with a twist. More quirks in mine, I'm too scared to write it as real letter so it's a comedy piece. Very light airy and crazee feeling. If he truely is mlc it should apeal

I'm here... what happened to my posts from the last few days???

Hi MM,
They are "working" on the board! They said on Friday that it should take only 24 hours but "could" take up to 48. Well it's been more than 80 hours since I first saw the notice and it's STILL not working!

That, along with the way they purged some of the most viewed old posts really makes no sense at all! I wish they would just finish whatever it is they are doing and let us get back to "normal". We all have enough stress in our lives, no need for more!

By the way, glad to hear things are getting better. Just keep your eye's wide open and don't let yourself get snowed. I have a feeling that some new "stressful" thing is about to come up now that your xBF has finished buying the new location. It seems to me he needs stressful things in his life and will always have something that he can say is the reason he is "stressed out". I know many people who do this to themselves and in turn hurt those closest to them. Just remember, you don't NEED him or anyone. You are fine on your own!

HI Matt... like his reason for delaying our vacation is now due to prioritizing the new roof & stressing about that? LOL .... his reason is legit, but how does one point that out to him with out it causing a problem & bad reaction?

I am keeping my eyes WIDE open & have begun to write a pros/cons list so that I don't nag along the way but am AWARE of changes to be made... therefore I can accept, tolerate or reject.

Pros: on Saturday night he suggests & we went out to one of our favourite restaurants, he "says" he wants to still be in a LTCR...& eventually live together.

- making efforts to compliment me (180 for him)
- "says" he wants to have fun & vacations with me.. soon (in couple weeks)
- tries to find time to "relax" with me (struggling with 180 for him)
- makes effort to approach me sexually (180 for him)
- allowing me into his space/home again

Con:
- still procrastinating putting my name on letter of intent for business ownership
- selfish
- unwilling to admit some feelings towards me
- not romantic/affectionate
- work/business trumps all non work/business related stuff
- can't commit, "seeing how it goes"

Me: I was "pushy" again on Saturday night...wanting more & now. While making out in our old bedroom in the dark, i suggested he light a candle. .. I was disappointed that he didn't want to be romantic & said so. This make out session was in his mind a "quickie" before dinner. He "says" he will be romantic another time. After he showered, I tried to discuss it, saying how I want us to be successful, etc. He says "who doesn't" & thats what anyone would say.

While in the kitchen I noticed a box of expensive mens cologne. He wouldn't offer too much information on where it came from. Eventually, I found out that its from a woman that he met a few times at a party, she liked him. He did not. He did not want to discuss it or that time. Says he is done with that part of his life & does not want to talk about it. I am hurt, but left it alone.

Then after dinner, I wanted to fool around a little in the car (while waiting at the airport for my DD)... he did not. I took this as rejection & cried quietly a little. (wondering why I was so emotional). He began to fall asleep.

Sunday: I called him to apologize for the pushy behaviour. Stating that I am anxious after being in limbo & wanted reassurance we are on the same page. I am happy for his progression & that I am not wanting to rush him. I didn't get much of a response.... left it alone for the day/evening. He texted later with a smiley face & cheers.

I realize that I get clingy/needy/desperate close to "that time of the month"... and then it "arrives" today.

Hey Magic. We missed you and was concerned. Since your posts didn't show up, can you give us a brief update on your stitch? What position are you taking or where do stand now?

Hey MM,
You really need to back off a bit from the sounds of it. I know it's hard when you think he's finally getting back to where you want but if he starts to feel at all trapped or 'pushed" at this time you can lose it all over again and the 2nd time is HARDER than the first!

The best thing you can do at this time is keep giving him the impression that you are independent. That you "want" him in your life IF he wants the same things you do, but at the same time if he's not willing to give you what you need, you will have no problem going elsewhere for it.

If you know you are prone to behaving a certain why at a certain time of the month, keep that in mind and be ready to control how you react. It's the "reacting" that is the problem. You need to be consistent and not react when baited or when he doesn't want to be romantic, etc. Even if this is what you WANT, you MUST keep in mind it's just that..a WANT, NOT a need! Let him pursue YOU, not get upset when you don't get what you want from him. I know it's hard for you to think this way but at this time it's important that he feel as though if he doesn't "shape up" he just may lose YOU. Showing jealousy (cologne incident) is really a big no-no. Whether you feel it or not, you need to have the attitude that you could care less. You don't fear any other woman will "steal" him away because you KNOW you are the better catch! That is a much more attractive attitude than getting jealous! Even if it's not what you're feeling inside..fake it until you make it! Think of it this way. Say you were to notice the gift from another woman. Instead of getting jealous or upset you were to say "That was nice of her. She must really have a thing for you". and just leave it at that. You smile and just move on. He will see you as a person with high self value. If you get at all jealous he thinks "There she goes again. I told her that that woman meant nothing to me. Man, she tries so hard to CONTROL me". Remember, MLCers HATE the thought of being "controlled". You don't even have to be doing anything that is at all controlling and they will still "feel" like that's what you are doing!

You need to remember your DB basics. They worked well for you as he is back to wanting a R with you again. Don't slip back into your old patterns. Getting upset that he didn't want to make out when waiting at the airport was exactly the wrong response. In fact if you made a move and he rejected it, the BEST thing would be for you to just totally blow it off like you couldn't care less. He's the one missing out on YOU, you aren't the least bit upset because you know that he's the one missing out on a great time.

You need to stop reacting and look at these times as "opportunities" to put what you have learned about the DB principals into practice! The next time you start to feel rejected or hurt STOP and think "instead of reacting how I normally would, what is the best way to get what I want right now?". By now you should have seen that it wasn't until you started to detach, to GAL, to act DIFFERENTLY than you had before that he started to notice and start wanting a R again! Don't think it was because the sale went through or he has less stress or any of that. He noticed that he couldn't get the old reactions from you and he started to think he may just lose you unless he stops.

You have made progress and are back in the game. Right now it is very important to keep doing what WORKS, not going back and and giving him the reactions that the "old" MM would have! Keep your eyes on the prize and keep doing the DB things. And just so you know...it's very common for the LBS to start to fall back into "old" patterns when things start to get better. This is a dangerous "make or break" time. Always be ready to think about how you are going act at any given time and you will win in the end.

Hey Matt... nice to hear from you!!

I totally agree on backing off... its hard to do, because you "think" you can be all comfortable & treat it like your old relationship... BUT YOU CANT. Its like holding a brand new baby. It requires special care. It requires LOTS of sleep (time & space) Thats the hardest for me... I am anxious to spend all time with him. I keep "offering" ways to do this.

Still learning independence. This is difficult to achieve while still living at parents. My responsibility here is NIL. This plays an important part on the above statement, as he is loaded with responsibility and this occupies his time. I still have too much time. I am grateful for my Monday night meetings & friends who keep me busy. I also figure its a good time to focus on things I have been neglecting, like doctor/dentist appointments, banking paperwork, going through old clothes, ... time to purge.

With each day, I am beginning to have more confidence as I can gain confidence in where this relationship is going (even if snail pace)... so, this can guide me to do the above stuff that I have procrastinated on for so long due to hyper focusing on him. It is TIME to take the focus off him. Hopefully now I can do that!!

Yes, I need to "think" before reacting... Responding is a better way.

I DO need to be pursued... I do need to ensure that this is what HE wants, not just because I want it. As for the "shape up" or he may lose me comment, I am not sure he has ever felt that .... is it too late to gain some of that?

I never used to have jealousy pre bomb, I was VERY confident in myself & our relationship (now, I feel someone could steal him)... i need to control this reaction much better. Thanks for pointing it out... I do "know" that I am the better woman, although it just kills me to be weakened like this. He plays games too. He likes to joke around and makes comments to make me jealous... and I react. This in turn, has got me into playing the game back... and I really don't want to play this way.

Also, I realize that he is slowly making gestures and baby steps towards coming back, however I do sense his guard/caution more often than the baby steps. He is not yet wiling to admit we are more than "seeing how things go". Even discussing our upcoming trip just yesterday, I referred to it as a "vacation". He got a little defensive and asked if I am telling others its a vacation? I sensed his fear, and replied that I have said not really... just that I may be going away soon. He wants others to "think" its for business. I asked him for clarity "is it a vacay or business?" he stated, "well, we will spend 1/2h on business and then have nice dinners, beach, relax, etc"......so??

I realize he is scared to death of being "trapped" back in our relationship again, and therefore ANY/ALL words or feelings of being directed ... makes him run. I believe this is due to the fact that he feels it was never "his" decision to enter into our LTCR & living together, even though he fully enjoyed it and wants it back. Apparantly, I pursued far too strong & it was a difficult task to finally get out??? I was very demanding of being a "family"... even though he admits to enjoying everything. He must feel that he never got to chose it. Therefore, I need to let this "choice" be HIS..... Yes, he must NOT be controlled. I am certain that he still feels me trying to control him again.

Pass the duct tape, control dial & clock!!!

Yes, OPPORTUNITIES to test myself on what I have learned. To put into practice & to be the change I have been teaching myself. Throughout this time, all I have ever wanted was an opportunity.... I guess it has arrived. Now, I need to pass the test!! Yes, act differently than what I used to.

I do believe that purchasing this new location was what he needed to do before being able to begin to put some effort back into our R. Our R is not his focus AT ALL... our R, is still the bottom of the list. Not quite where it should be. I don't think he has ever felt a sense of loss from me. Maybe just more like it was time after realizing that the grass isn't so green "out there" and maybe his grass would be green, if he just watered it.

Thank you for pointing out that this is "make or break" time... I really need to not be baited, not react, put all my DB lessons into practice & BE the woman I have been training to be. I am scared to death of screwing this up & falling back into the old patterns. I am scared that he is already a little to complacent with our R.

~~~~~~

3 things that I need to put on the pros list:

~ he reaches to kiss me goodbye
~ he referred to my old nickname twice last Thursday
~ he asks for me to text him when I get in (after late night driving)

~~~~~~~~~

I need to "pull" (attract) not PUSH!!

Magic - BRAVO on your progress !
MATT - that is wonderful advise and quite helpful for all.

Hi Blue_Sky... tx for the support, although I am not deserving of it quite yet.

Both Saturday night & last night I was pushy... to the point where he claimed "PRESSURE"... so, after 2x4's to myself, I vow to get back in the "waiting" line.

Yes, I may have leaned to the pressure side, but at the same time.... "IF" he is not wanting the same things I do & giving me what I need..."

Yesterday, I knew he had other interest to cut grass however, he also expressed a minor interest in hanging out with me after work. So, instead of letting him "ask".. I suggested it & then it got whittled away and he claimed "pressure". He said let him do the "asking"... Instead of me being all ok & no problem about it (casual), I asked him why he didn't want to & he took that as pressure. I DO NOT WANT ANYONE WHO FEELS being with me is PRESSURE!!

Approx 10 mins later, I did what OLD MM does... she called him to "fix".... I explained that I was not interested in pressuring him, just that I wanted him to see it as wanting to enjoy his company. I left it at that. (2X4)

Approx 2 hours later, he sends a text saying that he was feeling better and had finished cutting the grass & was cooling off out of the pool & cheers. I replied "I understand. Enjoy some TV & beer. Cheers" Then he sends another one stating that he is not relaxing that he has just dug out a work project.... I did not reply.

Today, its such a nice day & he was feeling pressured by a client. He was anxious for client to leave so that he could leaave & enjoy the pool before our next appointment. He "kinda" offered for me to go over, suggesting that I didnt have much time. I declined.

I declined because I want to give space. I don't want to give sad looks (puppy dog pressure). I don't want to assume & pretend everything is back to what it was... its not. THIS requires work & patience (and I need to pull back). It is clear that I cannot start planning & expecting him to do certain things. Don't set myself or the beginning of us to fail.

I see now that I need to stay back & wait for him to complete whatever he needs to complete (journey & responsibilities), without pressure &/or my comments.

Meanwhile... I need to get busy... so that My focus isn't on him.

At this point, everything else should take a priority over him. He can come 2nd, until I become his 1st.

Wish me luck.

The best of luck Magic!

At this point, everything else should take a priority over him. He can come 2nd, until I become his 1st.

ONE WORD : GAL!!!

MM

I see not much has changed.

Tx Blue_Sky... I have plenty of GAL options, however none seem to be fulfilling. I think if I had my own house I would be extremely preoccupied with my own things to do... even just the normal stuff like buying groceries, laundry, housecleaning, etc... would be good for me.

I have gotten pre-approved for a mortgage & he even has offered to lend me the money if I should want more. He even suggested that he would invest in something with me as well. .... I just dunno.

I think independence is what I need.

Hi Eric ~ still a work in progress, however there have been some changes.

Quote:

however there have been some changes.

Regarding this ^^^^^ - see below.

Quote:

Both Saturday night & last night I was pushy... to the point where he claimed "PRESSURE"

Quote:

Yes, I may have leaned to the pressure side, but at the same time

Quote:

Yesterday, I knew he had other interest to cut grass however, he also expressed a minor interest in hanging out with me after work. So, instead of letting him "ask".. I suggested it & then it got whittled away and he claimed "pressure". He said let him do the "asking"... Instead of me being all ok & no problem about it (casual), I asked him why he didn't want to & he took that as pressure. I DO NOT WANT ANYONE WHO FEELS being with me is PRESSURE!!

Umm....why then are you even trying if YOU DO NOT WANT ANYONE WHO FEELS being with me is PRESSURE? That is a rhetorical question.

So what exactly has changed? Maybe I missed it.

well, like I said... I am still a work in progress. I was easily slipping back into old MM ways. As you pointed out.. why? <<< this is something that I continue to remind myself of. Which is why I caught myself & decided to pull back.

I want to attract.... not beg!

I was much better today.

Today: HE did ALL the work & made ALL the advances, invited me to swim and sit by pool (I said OK), and also after work to sit on a patio restaurant & have drinks (to which I declined)... I did have other plans.

Tomorrow, we are up early for a work event, to which he wants my DD to join us. He also has mentioned more "pool time" for the weekend as we are running out of nice days. He is wanting to enjoy whats left of summer & not making it a full "work" day. (this is him trying to change). I have evening plans on Saturday night that he does not know about. I have a wedding to attend. "IF" he should ask my evening plans, then I will tell him.

Sunday, we are up early again to be on the road, as I was able to book/confirm an old adventure that I had purchased for the 3 of us, approx 2 years ago. We will be on a balloon flight. (really looking forward to this!!)

Sounds like your H wants to take the lead. Good work on pulling back on the reins yesterday.
A work in progress is all anybody can be, your H too.
It takes discipline to change your ways. It sounds like being in control is part of your character, and at some point your H must have seen that as attractive ? Being assertive is a great asset, but not now when his perception is muddled and it looks like aggressive .
Careful to watch out for the differance with him.

HI Blue_Sky,

Yes... he does want to lead... and thats been quite challenging for me to allow that to happen as for 20+years I chased, manipulated & controlled. I am impatient too.

Yes, he does like my assertiveness (at times) in business and in our sex life. However, I am changing part of the latter.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Update: We had a really nice weekend. I had posted a long version of the weekend yesterday, but its now lost. ... here is the short version:

Saturday: DD worked with us. After work he suggested that we have coffee back at his place by the pool. I was planning on attending a late evening wedding but he reminded me of heavy traffic & early timing of our family adventure the next day. I wanted to hang around longer but did not linger, I commented that I was going to have drinks at a friends instead.

Sunday: Early Balloon Flight. Excellent weather. Borrowed friends camera & many photos were taken. He even took a few pics of me with DD (hasn't done that in years). Took a few couple pics & family photos. After flight, went for breakfast. On the journey home, he took a scenic route. He mentioned how nice it was to do this day. My DD was trying to nap, he placed his hand on her lap & I placed my hand on his. I was getting anxious that it was still early and that our wonderful day was ending. I sat quietly the ride home. I really wanted to manipulate/control a way to still be together. Once we got back home, he suggested that it was such a nice day & if I wanted to come over at the pool, I was welcome. (YAY!!). HIs mom & aunt were there, just leaving (his aunt a little puzzled what i was doing there). We laid by the pool. Made out 2x. He approaches me (180). I was wanting to continue the day into the evening, but could tell he was anxious to do other house errands, so I suggested that I leave. He kissed me good bye. Later that evening, he texted to say he's done & cheers.

Monday: Did not make contact, waited for him to contact on his terms. A few business related calls & mentioning that it was a nice day again. Around 2pm he suggested "nice day, pool time?" ... so I went over. He mentions how he has not forgotten our "business deal" that still needs to happen. He also mentions that his friend was questioning him about "us". He told his friend that we are "getting along".

.... must run more later

MM

Just wondering...did you ever resolve the business issues? Did you end up securing a legal document that grants you a portion of the business?

If not, then it seems like you are right where I last left you...

Waiting....waiting....waiting...for him.

I guess my question is still the same. Are you okay with the way things are going? Are you okay with him taking the lead and you just standing around waiting?

If you are okay with the status quo, then I'm happy for you. If you are not, then when are you going to start asking yourself the really tough question - like....why the heck am I still waiting for this guy?

Hi Eric,

The business issues were delayed due to our new business location. It was his comment yesterday to state that he has not forgotten our business deal & we will proceed again soon towards the legal document. I have noticed it on his "list" of things to do.

The waiting, waiting, waiting is par for the course... isn't it? Waiting for him to finish his MLC. I now see that my journey during this time was to learn about my impatience, control & manipulation and a few other ugly behaviours that I didn't know existed. Due to my old behaviours of "chasing", etc... it is MY GOAL, my desire/need to be pursued... to allow HIM to control the pace, the affection, the offerings, etc... as I seemed to have held those jobs in our previous relationship. Both him and I need to know what HE wants, what HE chooses, etc. ... I just really need to pay attention.

Under the advice of my councellor, I have been told to be the loving MM that I am & want to be, to be playful sexually, and be the best MM that I am... HERE IS MY CHANCE that I have been longing for. However, to also keep a close eye, be alert/aware & to write things down (good & bad) and to not 'nag' about what I don't like along the way (for now). I think the writing down part is to remind myself of what the truths are (atm) so that I don't get sucked into believing a fantasy & that he is just soo amazing (NOT). For me to really see him as he is...not who I want him to be. For me to take account of the whole picture at the end of a suitable time frame and re-evaluate... but, not complain about it until the ending. Just continue to do/be my best.... and watch.

So.. am I ok with the status quo? I dunno. I can see myself easily ignoring all his current faults just to be eager to be back together/around him. I have written a few things down that I don't like & a bunch of new stuff that I do like (his baby steps). I am trying to be patient & see this through with a fair amount of time for a good judgement call. However, I am guilty of the "pressure" on my part & want to feel good about doing my best. I have promised myself a full month of NO PRESSURE before I can make fair judgement.

Meanwhile, I want to do my best to pull back to allow him the space to come forward.

UPDATE: Today, I was a little disappointed when he stated that after work he was going to go to Costco and he knows that I need to go too, but didn't invite me. However, I bit my tongue and kept occupied with other work, I was still friendly.

At the end of the day, He invited my DD & I to his Dads for Thanksgiving dinner. This thrills me to pieces but I cannot think too much of it because it may be because he wants us there as a decoy from being around his cousin that he is not fond of at this time. Although, having us at his family function states "something" to his family...doesn't it!

to add.. my DD says he invited us because we are getting along & he thought that I might like to be there.

I still read too much into things... ugh

Also, his Dad's Thanksgiving event offering is a new thing for this year. His Dad recently broke up with his LTGF and occasionally socializes with his Mom now (they have remained friends over the years). So, this TG event is his Dad offering to create a meal for his Mom's side of the family. I'm sure his Mom is very happy about this. This is the dynamics of his family... confusing huh?

MM,

You came to us here because you were looking for a long-term, monogamous commitment from him, which for 20 years he was some combination of "unable" and "unwilling" to give. Through your dialogue here, I believe you also came to believe that cementing your business deal was also something you needed.

I don't see ANY of that happening, and what's worse I still see him DANGLING all of those things, that he's come to know are important to you, and you still allow him to string you along and you make excuses for him every step of the way.

On the other hand, you also seem happy with the arrangement, so as I've said before WHY DON'T YOU JUST GO FOR IT, and stop pretending it's not enough for you.

Honestly, these circle convos are wearying. Why best yourself up? Life is too short, and however dysfunctional your little dance looks to the rest of us looking in, it does seem to work for the two of you, on both a business and a personal level. So just go for it, and stop with all the analyzing to death.

Starsky

Starsky... go for what? I am not sure I understand what you are saying...

The dynamics between us needed to change.. this is the time to allow for it to happen. I am waiting to see if it will happen. The old MM would pressure & control it to happen... I am no longer going to control it or beg for it. I am watching to see what HE wants this time. 20 years of chasing was what lead him to be able to dangle it. I am no longer in pursuit. I will see what will be offered. As mentioned, if not offered... Im done.

I didn't say that I was happy with the arrangement. Its still very upsetting at times. I am not pretending ... it is NOT enough for me. However, I need to know that I tried my very best, thus the time limit on what/how my councellor suggests.

What "it" are you waiting to happen?

for his MLC to end & realize that HE chooses me.

Chooses you in a relationship the way it largely was, or with a long-term monogamous relationship?

Hi Starsky... thats exactly what we had.. a long term monogamous relationship. I want that back.... just better.

This time, it will be within our own home. That's all I NEED. I don't necessarily require
"marriage"... but it would be nice.

Then color me totally confused. I thought you came here saying that you wanted more than what he'd been able to commit to all these years, and asking for advice how to do that. At first I thought that was marriage, and then one day I thought you clarified and said it didn't have to be marriage, but you two would have to be exclusive (monogamous), and that he wasn't willing to offer that, and we will advising you to hold firm in standing for what YOU needed in a relationship.

Now you seem to just be back to wanting what you had, back.

Whatever.

Starsky

I came here because he left our totally monogamous exclusive long term relationship.... He was no longer wanting to be in our relationship. He went into MLC. .... I came here wanting him & my relationship back.

I never said that he wasn't exclusive (monogamous). He was faithful & loyal for 20+ years. & inspite the MLC, he still is.

Throughout the forum, it came up that we were never married. I had said that sure, I would have liked to be married & in fact pushed for it at times. However, realizing that "marriage" didn't have to BE, as long as I had the right "relationship" & the right man.... This was the relationship & He was that man... I compromised my dream of marriage for the reality of a good relationship/person. Maybe I could have had both... but I had been married before & wasn't prepared to let "marriage" be a block over loyalty/faithfulness.

Due to MLC and our separation, he was no longer willing to be in our relationship... He did "think" the grass was greener & that he was missing out on "LIFE" , he felt the need to explore... however, he did not put forth much real effort & stayed "faithful". He didn't "do that" or anything close to it, with anyone else. He just didn't want to... I guess.

What we "had" was good. Yes, I do want that back.... only better. I want "my" new changes/behaviours to be present in a new relationship. I want "his" attention/desires to come back to me. "to water his own grass" & appreciate me. <<< This is what I was wanting and was trying to achieve.

Our re-connecting began because HE suggested that we "see how it goes" in an exclusive setting. I agreed to it.

Yes, you were advising me to hold firm in what I needed in a relationship... which was getting his commitment back into it. Much like everyone else in the MLC group... we "wait" like a lighthouse for them to come back.

That's not how I "remember" it but OK.

I am sorry for your confusion... I know it must be difficult remembering all the stories and keeping them straight on this website.

Would it help if I clarified something for you?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I know that I am capable of & easily falling into believing "words" again... I must remain skeptical. He needs to prove himself to me. I need to remember how he has hurt me & that I cannot bank on his words.

I am just too eager to believe how "wonderful" he is ....I must see him for who he is... even the not so nice stuff.

I cannot allow myself to believe what my heart wants to feel at this time. I need to have EYES WIDE OPEN & take care of myself.

Proceed with caution.

Originally Posted By: makingmagic

Would it help if I clarified something for you?

Oh, probably not.

LOL... are you having an "off" day?

reading through this situation I think Magic has showed that she is capable of change. Changing direction and prioritizing our needs and wants is good. I would not want to be held to my thoughts and plans and words from a year ago. Nothing can be written in stone.

MM

Not trying to hand out 2x4�s here, I just want to show you what I see.

Quote:

The business issues were delayed due to our new business location. It was his comment yesterday to state that he has not forgotten our business deal & we will proceed again soon towards the legal document. I have noticed it on his "list" of things to do.

It has been on his list for a long time. Notice how YOU have to keep waiting. Notice how YOUR needs are secondary.

Quote:

The waiting, waiting, waiting is par for the course... isn't it? Waiting for him to finish his MLC. I now see that my journey during this time was to learn about my impatience, control & manipulation and a few other ugly behaviours that I didn't know existed. Due to my old behaviours of "chasing", etc... it is MY GOAL, my desire/need to be pursued... to allow HIM to control the pace, the affection, the offerings, etc... as I seemed to have held those jobs in our previous relationship. Both him and I need to know what HE wants, what HE chooses, etc. ... I just really need to pay attention.

Honestly, I find this response interesting. Yes, the saying around these neck of the wood is that you need to try and OUTLAST someone�s crisis. That is correct. The piece though that you are missing are the other sayings�..like�..learn what it is YOU want, learn to stand on your own, learn that YOU have value, etc. I�ll get back to this in a second.

Quote:

my desire/need to be pursued

I guess I have a different opinion of pursued. To me, if someone is pursuing me..they are ACTIVELY chasing me. NOT just when they feel like it. More on this in a sec.

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to allow HIM to control the pace, the affection, the offerings, etc ... as I seemed to have held those jobs in our previous relationship. Both him and I need to know what HE wants, what HE chooses, etc. ... I just really need to pay attention.

That may be your goal. Personally, I think it more about YOUR fear of losing him than it is about finding your own happiness. ONE PERSON having the control in a R is NOT healthy. To me, it seems like you are content to sit around and wait for the crumbs that he is willing the throw your way. That IMO, is not healthy. I believe that a good R is one where the control can shift between partners � with both people�s needs being met. A give and take if you will. You see from where I sit, I see the same pattern of behavior in you. You want more, he says no, you push, he then give you a crumb and tells you that you just need to wait, you settle for the crumbs and the cycle continues. The only way this will change is when YOU really do.

You said earlier�that you needed to wait. Ummm�is 20 years long enough? What if he decided to finally address the business issues�ummm�say 10 years from now, when the company is almost insolvent. What then? YOU still gonna wait. Honestly MM, you are so afraid and that my dear is the one issues that holds you back and it will continue to as long as you avoid facing your fear.

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Under the advice of my councellor, I have been told to be the loving MM that I am & want to be, to be playful sexually, and be the best MM that I am... HERE IS MY CHANCE that I have been longing for. However, to also keep a close eye, be alert/aware & to write things down (good & bad) and to not 'nag' about what I don't like along the way (for now). I think the writing down part is to remind myself of what the truths are (atm) so that I don't get sucked into believing a fantasy & that he is just soo amazing (NOT). For me to really see him as he is...not who I want him to be. For me to take account of the whole picture at the end of a suitable time frame and re-evaluate... but, not complain about it until the ending. Just continue to do/be my best.... and watch.

IMO, your councellor is wrong in a way. Yes�be you, be happy, live life, enjoy it. What they are not telling you is that YOU matter. YOUR needs matter. That you do not have to tolerate this crap. That you do not have to settle for crumbs.

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So.. am I ok with the status quo? I dunno. I can see myself easily ignoring all his current faults just to be eager to be back together/around him.

What does this ^^^^ tell YOU? �just eager to back together/around him�. IMO, it screams CO DEPENDANT. It�s sad MM, it really is � not just for you but also for the poor man out there that would probably give you so much love�but you�ll never meet him�cause your waiting. Scared to stand up for yourself.

One day MM�you are gonna wake up and realize just how much you gave up for crumbs. I pray that this day comes sooner rather than later for your sake. I am not trying to be a downer here�I just do not see you moving forward in facing the tough stuff you have to.

God Bless,

Just want to make one small change to the otherwise-excellent observations by Eric, above:

Quote:

Personally, I think it more about YOUR fear of losing him than it is about finding your own happiness. ONE PERSON having the control in a R is NOT healthy. To me, it seems like you are content to sit around and wait for the crumbs that he is willing the throw your way. That IMO, is not healthy. I believe that a good R is one where the control can shift between partners � with both people�s needs being met. A give and take if you will. You see from where I sit, I see the same pattern of behavior in you. You want more, he says no, you push, he then give you a crumb and tells you that you just need to wait, *you give to us here multiple explanations and excuses and point out using WORDS all of the new insights you now have as to why this all EVENTUALLY won't be good enough for you, all while* you settle for the crumbs

HI Eric & Starsky... I do not take your comment as 2x4, but as an outsiders view. For this, I thank you and will consider what you are saying.

Yes, I know that my needs for business have been delayed for a very long time. Actually "seeing" it on his physical written list is 180 for him. Hearing him bring it up the other day is 180 for him. I will see this thru.

I have approached him on this recently & continue to do so. My only other option is to "attack" thru the legal system to which I will not fair as well as if he "offers" what we have already in place from our meetings with a mediator. Also, I am approaching it gently and in a better way due to our re-connection. I am not prepared to be demanding... I just don't feel that this "fight" will help with our rebuilding. <<< this may come across as fear/scared to get what is rightfully mine. But, what other choice do I really have ATM? Isn't it better to see what he is willing to GIVE on his own accord? I have asked for what I need, he has heard me and "seems" to be prepared to act on it ... soon. Realistically, he does not have to do anything. However, that attitude will land in legal battle.

Yes, I notice that my needs are secondary.

I have been doing my part in OUTLASTING the crisis. In the meantime, I have learned to value myself, etc. Which is why I am stepping back and allowing him to follow forward and to actually get to chasing me. This takes a step from me (stepping back) to allow this to happen... HIS CHOICE!

Isn't it everyones goal on the MLC site to "wait" and outlast? I see his "crumbs" now as baby steps... What makes my sitch any different than the others on this site?

I do see that statement as co-dependent... I am AWARE that I said it and therefore, am careful. The old MM would have JUMPED right in. When I stated that, it was to point out how I NOW recognize some co-dependent behaviour & will keep that in check!! I am not going to accept his baby steps as a final way of life.. more as it is.... baby steps to SEE what comes next, if any at all. Each day offers a new gesture that makes me feel a little more confident in his desires for me/us. ... however, I will not have my head in the sand and think its the BE ALL/END ALL and jump right in... I am being cautious!

Please point out to me how I am settling for crumbs where the others on the MLC forum are being a lighthouse? how can I differ between crumbs & baby steps?..... I will want to watch for this!

Again, thank you for pointing out what you see.. obviously, I am able to easily slip back into old ways if not pointed out to me from time to time.

Today, I am skeptical.... its a safe place to be as it protects me.

Quote:

Isn't it everyones goal on the MLC site to "wait" and outlast?

Honestly�.initially YES. IMO, that is because they are broken, hurt and scared. It is also because they believe in M or a lasting R. Now notice I said �initially��what I believe happens in many cases (and FTR, I am not speaking for everyone this is just my feelings) is that they begin to heal and learn. Learn about the mistake they made, learn about how to face fear, learn about how to grow as a person�then they learn there true worth. It is usually at this point, that the tides begin to shift, they begin to realize that they cannot control another. That they need to be honest and face the fear of being true to their needs.

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I have learned to value myself, etc. Which is why I am stepping back and allowing him to follow forward and to actually get to chasing me.

Hey look MM, you know yourself better than me. I could be wrong. What I see though is a disconnect between your words and actions. You say you value yourself, yet you but yourself second. And second, not once, not twice, not for a week, not for a year, not for 5 years�.no you have put your needs in the back burner. As Starsky wrote�.maybe we are all mistaken, maybe your sole goal is to just get him back at any cost � even if that cost is the loss of your sense of self.

As Starsky wrote..if you are happy with the status quo � then go be happy. H*�ll I�m happy for ya.

IF you are not happy with the status quo�..

Quote:

I see his "crumbs" now as baby steps

Babies ultimately learn to run and walk. I do not know of any babies that are still crawling 20 years later. I also believe that you CONVICE yourself that these are baby steps, in part because you do not want to lose him at any cost. You are afraid�and IMO, that fear is what is keeping you stuck. Stuck in a cycle.

Quote:

What makes my sitch any different than the others on this site?

You have 2,494 posts � and imo, you are in no different a position than when you first arrived.
I have 2,812 posts

That said, this is not a post contest. The number of post were used to illustrate a point. At the end of the day, if it takes you a million post but you end up in a happier place � that is all that really matters.

Quote:

My only other option is to "attack" thru the legal system to which I will not fair as well as if he "offers" what we have already in place from our meetings with a mediator.

If standing up for what you believe in is �attacking� � then you are in for a long ride. You mentioned that you will not fair well. Once again, IMO, this shows how scared you are. You have put soo much into this business only to run the risk of losing it. So is your plan to wait it out, hope he wakes the f*ck up and gives you want you have worked so hard for? If so�..ummmmm�.how�s that strategy working out for ya?

MM � I really do believe that you need to start planning a life without him�at least not with you as a partner�.I believe you need to face the fears, which I can only imagine seem impossible to face�.but�.ohhh�.sweetie�once you face them you are FREE. Honestly, it pains me to see you stuck. I so wish I could do something to get you to realize what so many others have seen.

I will pray for you MM.

Good luck and God Bless,

Eric.... thats the thing, I have changed!! I am very different from when I arrived (although, still under construction & accepting advice)

Yes, babies learn how to eventually walk... the baby steps I am referring to are since BD, MLC & since reconnecting. It is VERY important that I give him the space to allow HIM to come forward without my pressure.

I am not afraid to lose him... I already lost him 2 years ago. I learned this during the many months on here.. when I started to call him my Xbf. I learned that I have NO control of what he does.... so, why concern myself with what he does when he is not with me. I have learned that I was manipulating and trying to control an outcome that was clearly OUT OF MY CONTROL... I gave up!

I do see myself as valuable & am being patient (180 for me) WHILE we are "working on us"... I just don't think that NOW that he is finally offering to GIVE me my business deal that it is the time to demand it. Its not fear, its timing now... I have been standing up for what I believe, and he is making movement towards it... He doesnt understand my reasoning on why I need the paperwork to be done before I take funds from our bank account. His actions show that he is prepared and he has sat down with me and reviewed the statements line by line so that we understand what we are signing, etc.

Now that we are re-connecting, do you really feel I need to plan a life without him? I mean, I am getting this business deal finalized so that I can buy a house.... So that I can be independent... this is facing a fear for me. I am planning a life.. with our without him.

The old MM would have "assumed" we were back together already & jumped full force into pressuring him & demanding that I move home or buy a house with me already. Putting pressure that we behave like a family again. I am looking at this differently now. I want to see his changes & to ensure that I will get all that I need.... because HE wants it too.

MM

At the end of the day....as long as you are happy with the approach and the direction you are headed then that is all that matters MM.

You just need to feel good about yourself.

Hi Eric,

At the end of the day... I am still unsure. I am not convinced I am happy with the approach and direction.

I do want to feel good about myself.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Today's discussion: We were headed back to work after some "time away from work" at Costco. My RE agent sent me a new listing to review. This turned into a discussion of where we stood within our relationship.

Long story short: He reiterated that he does want to be in a living together situation again, that he really misses companionship of living together & wants that again... however, due to our current situation he feels we are not ready just yet. I see that!! He also says he probably won't be able to for another 2 years because of the commitment he has with his mom & the obligations of THAT house and our business.

THIS FREAKS ME OUT!!!... am I really supposed to wait 2 more years? I said that I want to live, sleep & cook for a family again. He said he did too, but figures we can sleep at each others house till that time comes.

When "trying" to discuss some RE options.. he claimed "PRESSURE" and of course, I got upset wondering how to have this convo and find a solution that works for both.

He gets annoyed and wants the convo to end. He feels I am being the same MM that doesn't know when to quit the conversation (old bull dog approach). I get defensive and stand there stunned wondering what to say or do next. I said something good, but cannot recall what was said... his response was calmer & that he just really needs a vacation and he that he needs to calm down & said that he realizes that we need to talk more about this stuff. He comes over to hug & kiss me goodbye. I was standoffish... and said "really?" and gave a return cold hug.

I am "thinking" of sending a text:

"Our discussion today left me feeling confused. You claim pressure from me and I wonder if you see the pressure I have from you as well as my parents. Living with my parents has become a daily struggle. I understand this is not your problem and I have been keeping it from you. Pressure to buy now into a house that does not serve us in a family life style, because we are not able to be open and discuss to find a solution that may work.... <<< this is pressure for me.

I am doing all I can to balance things. I feel I am being forced to buy NOW into 2 house styles that I really don't want as my end result, which is how a 3rd option presented itself today. I was hoping to review options. I honestly feel that if I buy on my own then that seals the deal on us building a life together. As our relationship is not ready, I feel that we are pretty much where we were 20 years ago. I feel that if I buy my own place then this states that we are not taking a leap of faith and are choosing to live separate lives. That we are not coming together towards a common goal. By saying this I am telling you how I feel. Communicating. I am only explaining how I feel and my position. It is not suggesting or pushing. It is upsetting to hear that this kind of discussion pressures you when I am letting you be aware of how I am feeling. I am looking for mutual satisfying solutions... that is all"

I don't know if I really need to send this ... or if I just needed to get it out of my head and off my chest.

he just randomly texted:

Him: Work thing just went well. Cheers!
Me: Glad to hear that.
Me: I am bothered by our convo tonight. I feel pressure to buy a house NOW. and I can't discuss it with you. Its upsetting.

He writes:

No pressure
Its your choice
You have been shopping for one?

I want to write:

by buying on my own, I feel that we are making a choice to be separate instead of discussing some options that are satisfying to both.

any suggestions?

But you are still separated, buy sow thing that's going to suit mm!

You can re sell rent to consider other options if things change dramatically.

hi GG!! I get that... I just was hoping to eliminate the stepping stone & reach toward the goal instead. "IF" we were both ultimately reaching for that!!

I replied: I am struggling to find a satisfying solution.

dont pressure him.

Listen to him, he is not ready.

He is moving in the right direction.

Live in the Now

Hi Bklyn....

I totally SEE that... AND I am not ready either, just yet... I just wanted to work towards a common goal..

I see it buying it on my own is an end to what was... this makes me sad.

I see your point in Living in the NOW!! I need to stop living in the future and the past.

Live in the NOW!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He replies:

I can appreciate that 100% I wish it was easier for me and you... Struggle is a good choice of words. Try to be happy with the victories we have had.

My observations upon catching up:

The whole idea of outlasting the MLC is why I never visited this board before. I know others who took the same approach and were still in limbo years later with nothing really changed. This seems to be what's going on with you.

You're fond of saying that you've changed a lot but in reading random posts throughout your tenure here I see the same things: you push for something, he says too much pressure, you back off and things are back to the status quo.

Matt165 (upthread) doesn't have it quite right. You don't need to *act like you're independent* you need to *BE* independent. Right now all of your actions and feelings are really reactions to his actions and feelings. You're not captain of your own ship. No one will make you a priority unless and until you make you a priority.

You say that you want a better relationship than you had before but you don't require him or yourself to take action that will lead to this better relationship. Sounds like you're chomping at the bit to resume the old relationship and he's not even ready for that. If he knows you'll hang around indefinitely then why would he change? There's no motivation.

Are you being honest with yourself regarding marriage? I was with my BF for eight years at the time of his affair. I told people that I didn't want to get married because I didn't need the piece of paper, we were together because we wanted to be and not because we were legally obligated. And that was mostly true, especially in the beginning. But as the years went by and our circumstances changed I wanted to get married. When I brought it up he said that we were better off financially being single and that was the end of the discussion. So I didn't bring it up anymore. When we were reconciling and really being honest he told me that he had wanted to get married but I was so independent that he thought I didn't. Major lack of communication. When I decided that I wanted to stay with him I told him that one of my requirements was marriage. I now needed us to make that formal, legal commitment to each other. We were married by the end of the year.

Bottom line is that you two are not on the same page of what you want and how you're going to get there.

MM

Please read what Pearl wrote up there ^^^^^^

Have you ever considered��.

If you love something let it go. Love it enough to find what it is looking for. Also love yourself enough to find YOU.

From where I sit, you will continue with the current cycle � until one of two things happen.

1) You finally realize what is happening to you and decide for YOURSELF that this is not the life you want for YOU.
Or

2) You continue on in the current cycle, until one day�you realize that he is may never change.

Einstein definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. I�m sure you are going to tell me that you have changed and yes you have changed some things about yourself. I feel though the changes were never for YOU � they were done as a tactic to get HIM back. When you finally come to accept and love YOURSELF (faults and all), you will come to realize that YOU matter, you will see this cycle, this game that he plays.

Now I bet you�..the business deal will not happen for say�.another year, then it will be another excuse.

HI Pearl,

Thank you for your comments.... I totally AGREE!!!

Matt... the changes I made were always for ME, so that I could be stronger to handle whatever it is that I need to do for me. It was never a tactic (that doesn't work).

As for options 1 or 2... I feel that once I buy my own place, options #1, 2 may happen or that #3 (the unknown) will present itself.... therefore, I MUST by my own place & soon. It just feels like I am closing a door on him , if I buy on my own. Like he didn't "man up/grow up" soon enough and I will resent this.... so I have been procrastinating.

As for the business deal.. I guess we will both have to wait and see. He did mention it again last night that he wants to get it completed before we go any further with our relationship.....so "lets see".

Originally Posted By: makingmagic

HI Pearl,

Thank you for your comments.... I totally AGREE!!!

That's it? Wow.

We have held up Pearl as an example (rightfully) of someone here whose:

a) situation fit yours very well; and

b) successfully reconciled her relationship, AND

c) it led to the long-term commitment (MARRIAGE) that she wanted.

I've posted links to her sitch, and tried -- based on my memory and understanding of her sitch -- provide you with tips and examples of what WORKED for her, so you can hopefully get "unstuck" in yours.

And I went and found her, on the alt, which took me a couple of months but I ask her to come here and try to help you, and she takes the time to do so, and reads much of your sitch and she gives you insights (albeit tough ones), and . . .

You don't even have a single question for her?

Wow.

MM, you really don't strike me as someone who even WANTS to learn how to improve her situation here. You make excuses for your xBF and rationalize away nearly all of the advice you get (or pass it off with a simple "I agree!"), and you remain . . . STUCK.

You come back after a long hiatus, after multiple people challenged you on your approach and your thinking, some of which who sent you some VERY loving (and lengthy) posts, trying to encourage you and challenge you and help you. And you come back with virtually no explanation as to why you were gone so long, or why you ignored their posts, instead seemingly just wanting to resume as if nothing had happened.

For a woman who claims to know what Pearlharbr was trying to do in her sitch, I sure find it odd (and more than a little rude) that you didn't even ASK her when she took the time to come here to try to help you.

I honestly don't think any of us can. I certainly can't.

Starsky

MM

If you truly understood and believed in YOUR worth�..

Quote:

Like he didn't "man up/grow up" soon enough and I will resent this

This ^^^^ would not be a FEAR of YOURS.

I suspect that if you go and read Pearl, that you will find someone the truly dropped the rope. The learned her own self worth and KNEW that she was worth MORE. You have never left your BF for any extended period of time. You have never really dropped the rope. You never really allowed him to miss you and realize what HIS life would be without YOU in it. WHY? IMO, because you love HIM more than yourself and because coming to the realization that you actually may need to start over is too overwhelming for you. I get it. I get that FEAR paralyzes you. I get that you FEEL that HE is the best thing for YOU. I get that the thought of walking away from a business that you helped build [censored].

What I hope you see one day�is the longer you stay on the Ferris wheel the longer YOU prolong YOUR pain. The longer YOU sit in limbo. I have said to you before that YOU decide when this is over. Many have said to you�that you need to let go. You refuse to. You hold on to him�.to every word he says�.to every �maybe� her gives you�.to every crumb he drops. Cause ya do not want to let go.

The funny thing is��you have not tried it. You have not even given truly letting go a shot. What if��.when you finally said to him. I have accepted that you cannot give me what I want. I will no longer wait for you. Good luck and god Bless you. Let�s move forward with splitting the business (even if that means that you get less)�and then MM�.you begin to piece your life back together. You begin the live the words that you yourself write. What if�.trying something different yields a different result.

Then again�.

You can stay on the Merry Go Round�.

Round and round she goes�.

Round and round she goes�.

Round and round she goes�.

Round and round she goes�.

Round and round she goes�.

Round and round she goes�.

Round and round she goes�.

Stop! Wait�.he just threw a crumb�.let me bend down and pick it up. Okay. Great. Wait�I want more. Okay he said no that is pressure. Time to get back on.

Round and round she goes�.

Round and round she goes�.

Round and round she goes�.

Round and round she goes�.

Round and round she goes�.

Fast forward�3 years�..

Stop. He said he loves me. YIPEE. It is a crumb. I did it. I outlasted him. Yipee. Wait�.oh no�.oh no�.he is saying it too much pressure. Time to get back on.

Round and round she goes�.

Round and round she goes�.

Round and round she goes�.

Round and round she goes�.

Round and round she goes�.

Round and round she goes�.

Fast forward�3 more years�..

STOP! Holy cow I need to start thinking about retirement. Okay�lemme ask him. BF, do you think we can discuss the business and what is owed to me? I am getting older and I need to think about how I am gonna live. What? You�ll take care of me. Oh..okay but can we still figure out how I can get what I am owed? What? That is too much pressure? Okay�lemme get back on�..

Round and round she goes�.

Round and round she goes�.

Round and round she goes�.

Round and round she goes�.

Round and round she goes�.

Round and round she goes�.

Fast forward�10 more years�..

Whew�I am tired. Been on this freaking Ferris wheel so damn long. What is that BF? What? Your not feeling well? What�your gonna shut the business down and move to timbuktoo? Great. When do we leave? What do you mean I can�t come? Wait�what about my share of the business? Wait�I believed you? I thought�but you said�. That is not right � I was waiting this out. Waiting for your MLC to end. What is that? I can�t hear you? Did you just say to me that I CHOOSE to wait? No�no�this is your fault�all your fault�come back here�.come back here�.stop�.stop�. (thinking to herself�MM says�.�I get him��I�ll get him�). Ummm�yes HI I am looking for my BF, he has vanished. Can you help me find him? What�he moved where? WTF��WTF��

MM � read this slowly��very slowly��.

Is this what you want?

It is time MM, time to put on your big girl panties and finally stand up for what YOU want.

I am at work...so this will have to be short, for now:

WOW Starsky... ouch!... I AGREE with her... allow me some time to process and resonate for a bit. <<< this is something that Job had asked me to learn & do...

Eric....
"You have never left your BF for any extended period of time. You have never really dropped the rope. You never really allowed him to miss you and realize what HIS life would be without YOU in it. WHY? "... <<<< Because its impossible to do while we own a business together. Owning a business together means we see & speak to each other several times through out the day. I do keep it "business like" while at work... I did allow the time/space for him to realize what his life would be like without me...hence the reason he feels he is back (I'M IRREPLACEABLE! .... said this again TODAY).

WHY? IMO, because you love HIM more than yourself and because coming to the realization that you actually may need to start over is too overwhelming for you. I get it. I get that FEAR paralyzes you. I get that you FEEL that HE is the best thing for YOU. I get that the thought of walking away from a business that you helped build [censored]. ... <<<< If I walk away from the business, then I cannot afford the house I am aiming to purchase..... TO BE INDEPENDENT! I will need to find a way to manage this business and a house.

June 13... I did exactly that Eric... I dropped the rope & backed off completely, telling him that I wasn't waiting anymore & showing him by not accepting his offers of getting together, etc... ... it was from this position that he started moving forward towards me... leading us to where we are now.

Yesterday, He mentioned that he does not want marriage. I nodded as acknowledgment & acceptance.. Then he restated that he may want marriage. That he just doesn't know. I don't know where that comes from as we weren't talking about marriage AT ALL. I never said a word. Today, he says that he wants the time to build our relationship and have some fun... That he realizes that its not so easy "out there" finding another therefore he wants to make an effort towards us.

He feels that we are just a couple weeks into "seeing how it goes" & its going well. But my pressure of wanting more (at this time) is wrecking our start...

How is this crumbs, really?

I get that I am to be careful & to make sure that I get what I want along the way... but, isn't this a step in the right direction? Bkln Mom seemed to think so... and for me not to add pressure (I can see her point)

All of the above advice is about me letting go & leaving him... the timing of those statements make no sense to me. Why would I let go again now & bail out on the beginnings now when he is moving in the right direction...finally!
~~~~~~~~~~~

I really need to process more & I will have questions for Pearl. I have a lot to think about & a house to consider.

Why, because all of this is about you becoming the better person, for you! Not the other person.

Quote:

That he realizes that its not so easy "out there" finding another therefore he wants to make an effort towards us.

Wow. What a compliment.

How do you not see this as accepting crumbs?

BINGO Pearl.

MM - read what you wrote....or his comment. I may be wrong but here is what I see.

"He realizes that its not so easy "out there" finding another therefore he wants to make an effort towards us"

Here is my interpretation of his statement......

Well RIGHT NOW you are the best I can do (cause I know I can manipulate you)...so you should be honor to be with me...so yeah...you can see me.

You deserve so much more that this. If only you could see it.

Said another way....Me? Personally....I would only date someone who WANTS to be with me - NOT because it is "hard out there". That statement if said to me, would make me feel like I am the second option....and I will NOT be someone's back up plan. F dat!

Get ready for the "explanation" of what he "actually" meant by that, and how it's "actually" better than the OLD xBF . . .

Counting backwards, from 100 . .. 99 . . . 98 . . . 97 . . .

Originally Posted By: makingmagic

Yesterday, He mentioned that he does not want marriage. I nodded as acknowledgment & acceptance.. Then he restated that he may want marriage. That he just doesn't know.

This ^^^ was the part that jumped out at me. This screams to me, "I may or may not want to marry you, but this is all going to be what *I* want, make no mistake! And I'm preparing you in case I decide EITHER WAY!"

Geesh, talk about trying to have your cake and eat it too!!! MM, don't you see this????

Starsky

I noticed this ^^^ too. He just baited the hook and MM bit hard.

MM, I will say to you what I told someone in Newcomers today: As long as you are giving off the vibes that you'll be waiting for him he will not see you as someone of value.

hmmmm... things to ponder...

I can see what you guys are saying here... .

Thanks

Pearl??

"As long as you are giving off the vibes that you'll be waiting for him he will not see you as someone of value."

From the position I am finally in now... it took almost 2 years to get here... how do you suggest that I give different vibes? please be specific...

He says he has a 1.5-2yr plan of how he can get to an end result with me... this includes me. He wants to spend time together (share accommodations) while he gets his house ready for sale. Meanwhile, spend time back and forth between 2 houses.

#1... I need to be independent (get my own house)
#2...

You keep pressuring him about everything--spend time with you, talk about a future with you, buy a house with you. He knows that you do everything in response to what he says or does. He knows that you want nothing more than to have him back.

You don't put you first so why should he?

Move forward with your life on your own terms. Make your own decisions. Be your own person. Start with reading "Codependent No More."

Quote:

He says he has a 1.5-2yr plan of how he can get to an end result with me... this includes me. He wants to spend time together (share accommodations) while he gets his house ready for sale. Meanwhile, spend time back and forth between 2 houses.

That's nice. This is all about him and what he wants. Are you willing to waste another two years of your life waiting on him? What about getting what you want?

If my H had said anything like that to me I would've laughed in his face. I was doing him a favor by giving him a second chance, not the other way around. I knew what I wanted and laid it out there. If he didn't want to meet my requirements then I understood and wished him well. But there was no way in hell I was willing to expect anything less from him. I deserved better.

Wow, MM, how romantic of BF!
What a great story to tell the grand kids "Yes, your GF said to me that he had a 2 year plan in place to get where he was in a position to "want" me in his life and well, if I didn't like it that was unfair pressure...., in fact he basically told me that if I wasn't willing to wait and not expect a single thing from him in that time I was free get lost. Yes, your GF was such a hopeless romantic....".

Are you really willing to settle for that, MM? You know how you give off an "independent vibe"? By being independent! We've been over this before, MM. Until you really truly can take him or leave him, until you love yourself enough to understand that he's lucky to have you in his life, he won't ever really want you! Why does this guy have such power over you? Answer: Because you allow him to!

Pearl... Yep.. I keep pressuring & he does know that I want him back. Although during our discussion tonight I did say "I don't know" several times to him about it.

You are right... I don't know how to put myself first. Its not even a thought that comes to mind. Its not natural to think of "self first". As a mom, you naturally put others first.

I have read co-dependent... guess its time to re-read.

What I want?... hmm, I want to be a family again and be IN our own home. That quoted statement you repasted IS about him and how he feels stuck & the only way he can see himself out of his position. He is suggesting that we still be a family & do family things while living between 2 houses (and that could change within X months of "trying this" and he may want more or I may lose interest...who knows)... What else am I to do? PUSH for more? or walk? if I walk, I am in a same position with someone else anyway... waiting for the right time in that rel'p to move in together (approx 2 years).

Yes, I need to understand that I am doing him a favour by being available to consider our relationship again... I think the way to believe this and be believable... is by doing things on my terms. <<<< I need to think about what my terms are.

Matt, I am currently looking at houses. This will be my first real step towards independence. Yes, I have been allowing/enabling him. He has such a cocky quick/sarcastic/funny attitude that challenges me and my self-worth. I need sharper/witty tools to be able to banter back. He has such a confident attitude about things/us. I guess THIS makes me weaker. I wish I could think of how he does this, so that you could guide me with sharp wit back. I guess my best defence would be to give "I dunno's" & "maybe's" back, like he gives me... and not be eager (I have been more casual lately, however)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tonight, he made the time to discuss my living circumstances. He reassured me that he does want the end result to be LTCR, living together again... meanwhile, its only been a few weeks of our re-connection & wants to continue to see how it goes. If I buy a house, he would like to spend time together between two houses, until he is able to relieve himself of his responsibilities of his house. That house requires ALOT of cleaning up & preparing for re-sale. He did say that he wants to move out.

I'm not good at recalling the way he says things so that I can repeat it here verbatim.. so, what I write may come across poorly and not in his favour at times.

I confronted him tonight based on the earlier statement of why he wants to give our rel'p another chance... that I don't accept being "plan b"... he doesn't see it that way and said its because of our history. Our 20 years means something to him.

He also brought up that he does not want procrastinate about finishing our deal... its just that we get so busy with our clients (true) ... he was prepared to sit & discuss it tonight, but I was not in the right mood.

We ended on a light note & he came to hug me goodnight.

He is clearly not ready... I am not going to push that.... or by being demanding.

My head is full of the different approaches to handle this, as well as the decisions I need to make about being independent. I will ponder more the thoughts of above & make my own decision of what I am willing to do to get what I want/need.

Quote:

Are you really willing to settle for that, MM? You know how you give off an "independent vibe"? By being independent! We've been over this before, MM. Until you really truly can take him or leave him, until you love yourself enough to understand that he's lucky to have you in his life, he won't ever really want you! Why does this guy have such power over you? Answer: Because you allow him to!

Apparently many people have given you the same advice, repeatedly, and you make excuses as to why you don't take this advice, repeatedly. I could write a lengthy response to your post but honestly, it makes me want to bang my head against a wall. I don't need the additional frustration.

It really comes down to one simple thing: all this nonsense stops when you say it stops.

I was a mess when I discovered BF's A. I tried to nice him back and all the standard mistake for a few months. Then I realized that I deserved better. I packed him a bag, took his house key, and told him to get out. If he wasn't willing to give up OW then he needed to leave, I would not tolerate that disrespect. When he came back sniffing around a month later I told him no. I would not be his OW and why would I settle for a cheater? He kept asking for another chance. I made a list of requirements to even consider it, and there was no guarantee. After he met these and I finally decided to give him a chance because of the years we had spent together I did not spend more than one evening a week with him at first because he didn't deserve any more of my time, he had to earn that. I did not let him move back in until I was ready, he had to prove to me that he was working on himself to be a safe partner. Frankly, my new life was looking pretty good without him so he had to work hard to convince me otherwise.

That is what works.

He is giving u false hope. He is giving u just enough to try and shut u up but at the same time wording this so u can't come back and say......but u said blah blah blah. He doesn't want to be alone lone so he keeps u on a string until something better comes along or he eventually does move to tinbuck two.

If u won't listen to these people please listen to what I'm saying,,,,,I lived this for three yrs, believing all his excuses, right down to the promise of US being together forever,,,,,Word For Word!!!! You are in for a long disappointing ride,,,,,,,that ends badly for u. Get out while u can.
If he wants you, he will find u and if he loves u, he will put u first for once.
Scared to be alone?....so was I. Guess what....I got over it and I am getting ready in a few mths to graduate nursing school at 48.
Take charge of ur life and Listen for once to these people.

MM,
"He has such a cocky quick/sarcastic/funny attitude that challenges me and my self-worth."

Read that over and over again and let it sink in. If you love someone, if you care about someone, why would you challenge their self-worth? I get it. He's smart and cocky and has all the "bad boy" charm but if he uses that to make you think less of yourself HE DOESN'T LOVE YOU!! I'm so sorry MM but if he causes you to doubt yourself than he isn't the right person for you. Love lifts you up. It makes you feel BETTER about yourself. It makes you want what's best for the other person. It doesn't use wit and charm to keep them in their place.

Listen, he is a guy. Every guy I know that was in "love" wanted to protect his GF, to be with her, to give her what she wanted. You are in for a life time of hurt if you allow him to keep acting this way. MM, I know you don't want to hear this but you need to get away from this guy.

Also, what do you mean when you say you weren't "...in the right mood.." to discuss your business deal? MM, haven't you heard what everyone has been screaming at you about protecting yourself? I don't care what "mood" you're in, do not pass up a chance to get that finished! You just told him last night that he has permission to keep putting you off on getting it finished, don't you see that? Put yourself first for once! I'm not going to go into whether or not you really want the business deal to get done as that would leave nothing holding you back from tossing him. Just think about you and what is best for you and do it!

What is best for me is... to start with getting my own house.

Somewhere along the threads I must have painted a bad picture of him.... he is not as you all seem to suggest he is.

Sunshine... he is not keeping me around until something better comes along. He has already decided to put forth the time/effort into us. He loves me and wants our 20 year relationship to work out. I am sorry that your situation didn't work out for you.

Matt... His cocky attitude is his charm. It is not out to destroy me. He just has confidence where I don't. He isn't "using" it to make me feel less... You have the wrong idea of him. It is due to MY own self worth, because of BD and separation that has caused ME to be weak. He is that in "love" guy. He does want to protect me & be with me & give me what I want. <<<< I know this, lived this and am starting to see it happen again (when I don't push). He wants to take care of me (include me in the business success) , he wants me to succeed. He wants me around his family again.

As for the business convo... I guess I should have indulged in that convo.

Pearl, as you are jumping in late on my thread... you are missing the part where I did give up on him & didn't give him the time of day for a couple weeks too. The nonsense stopped then. He suggested exclusive dating, and thats what we are doing.

He is very eager for us to take a vacation or two together so we can be together. He talks about how nice it will be (romantically) and to see how we get along without work.

He is asking for a natural slower progression of things & not jump back into "OLD US"

He is asking to take it slow. <<<< I need to DO THIS!

I agree & accept that I need to put myself first. Think about me & what is best for me & DO IT. <<<< I will work on this!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As much as I don't want to buy a house without him, I also get excited and anxious to be living MY new life. I feel that this will help me have the confidence I need for myself. I feel it will totally enroll me back into a normal life that includes groceries, house cleaning, laundry (like everyone does). I won't have the time to "focus" on him. I will be BUSY... painting, decorating, entertaining, making dinner, being with my daughter in a normal setting again. HE will want to be a part of this.

Upon reading DB techniques... its my understanding that when reconnection begins again that the LBS should accept some but not all offers. To take it slow. Still GAL and to be patient.

I need to see how/where this goes with him, without putting pressure. As mentioned I have pushed in our past & its time I see what HE really wants with me. To do this, I must allow a time frame to allow him to come forward. To allow him to do the work. To allow him to prove to me. .... to win ME back.

Looking ahead, Thanksgiving & Christmas is a nice time to be spending with someone..... its a natural and loving time to be together. I do think that this loving/family time could help him come back faster.... this is what a friend suggested.

The way to do this is not totally "step by step" clear, other than to do as Michelle suggests by accepting "some" not all offers. Also, by putting me first and having other things to do.

I appreciate all the comments, and will keep myself on guard. I am not putting my head in the sand, as the old MM would easily do. What you are suggesting could be possible. Therefore, I will really watch him & myself & the dynamics. .... He is lucky to have me in his life. <<< I will wear this today!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He just randomly called... inviting me to go enjoy a small window of sunshine with him (getting rain later on) and go for a convertible ride. I didn't jump at the offer. I did say call me later about it. After yesterdays "pressure", I am surprised that he doesn't want to run away from me. I am obvious inclined to want to say yes and go... but be more protective of myself. Not be so "easy" and giving of my love & affection. If I were to say no...it would seem awkward & unnatural, as what possible real reason could I have for not wanting to skip work & enjoy time off. <<< this is where I could use some ideas.

MM,

We have 2,500 posts going back a year and a half, with some really detailed blow-by-blow accounts from you as to his actions, statements and attitudes.

Nearly everyone here has formed the same opinion about him, and about the nature of your relationship and its dysfunction.

The fact that you don't see it is part of the dysfunction.

For the record, I don't think he's evil or even necessarily meanspirited. I just think he's lazy (emotionally), has a HUGE commitment issue, and doesn't value you as much as you deserve to be valued. And I think that will never, EVER change (except for a percent or two here and there, around the edges) until you:

a) REALIZE it; and

b) TRULY move on, as Pearl did.

That you are no closer to that today, 2,500 posts later, should be alarming to you. But instead you just say we're all wrong.

Starsky

AWESOME Starsky.... I agree. I think he is lazy (emotionally) as I have enabled it, has a HUGE commitment issue (which he wants to overcome... on his terms, and doesn't value me as much as I deserve... YOU are right!!

I am not saying anyone is wrong.....

a) I do need to REALIZE MY worth!

Somewhere along the threads I must have painted a bad picture of him. I know that I am not good with my words.... he is not as you all seem to suggest he is. I am open to hearing how he may or may not be. I am open. I am seeing his changes. I cannot say he is 100% of what I want from him.... yet. But, I do see some progress. I do not have rose coloured glasses on. I see him as a person who is just getting his land legs back, after being on such a stormy ship. He is testing the waters with me. I fail to see how he is any different than the others who come out of MLC. He is still selfish, trapped, and driven by our business. I see him trying to share with me. I see him looking for ways to get out of his trapped feelings (2yr plan). I see him stopping to smell the flowers (with me) and not be so "business" 24/7. These are 180's for him. I am not saying he is better, just trying to change & including me in the process. Last year at this time, we were barely speaking and there was nothing to think he was ever coming back. He has come a long way.

I am very skeptical and holding back. He needs to prove himself to me. I do remember how he has hurt me. I know, I still cannot BANK on his words. I want him in my life, IF he wants the same thing I do. (I am listening to what he wants). If he is not willing to give me what I need (on his term, without my push/demand)...then I will be OK & done.

I give up. Truly, I just give up.

MM,

You have received such wonderful wisdom from many. Please know that the 2 year plan may turn into the past 20 yr plan. I don't say that with malice-just honesty.

I don't think you've painted a bad picture. He doesn't sound like a deplorable human being. Just sounds like a guy who knows you are waiting for him and he can do anything and everything he wishes.

I am glad to hear you are okay. Good luck to you.

Starsky... You confuse me... I agree with you & then you give up??? What kind of response did you want from me?

Gbelle... I will not allow the 2yr plan turn into a 20 year plan. I am looking at a time frame of possibly Christmas.. and to see what he offers for the new year. If I don't hear what I need and see major progression towards it, then I am done.

Yes.. I have received a lot of wisdom from many many caring people on this site. I truly appreciate everyone and their experiences.

Yes...he likely feels that I am "waiting" & like he can do any thing and everything he feels. I don't understand how that makes him any different than ANYONE else on this sight. All MLC are selfish & feel entitled. All LBS are trying to be a lighthouse.

What am I doing that is so wrong?

I am not defending him.

When I state that I am careful, it means I am being careful. How is my situation so different then the others on here... can you explain it G-belle? or anyone?

Originally Posted By: makingmagic

Somewhere along the threads I must have painted a bad picture of him. I know that I am not good with my words.... he is not as you all seem to suggest he is.

This ^^^ is not defending him? This is not disagreeing with what others are trying to tell you?

Just because you preface a disagreement with the words "I AGREE" doesn't negate the subsequent disagreement and justification. And you do it ALL THE TIME.

It's maddening, and there's simply nothing else I can possibly say to you that will help you "get it." And so, since I never want to just badger someone, I will wish you luck and Godspeed, MM.

Starsky

Starsky,

I'm not very good at understanding things... from what you wrote I think you are saying that I just say "I AGREE" when I really don't.

If that is what you are saying... its not true.

If this is not what you are saying.. then I am even more frustrated and confused.

I do agree with ALOT of what has been said.... therefore I am choosing to be cautious in my approach with Xbf. I do not see him as a bad person. He is a selfish person. I do not see him as a conscious calculating and manipulating person..... some of you do because of your own bad experiences (I get that and am able to be aware of what to look for). I see him as a person who wants what he wants and isn't allowing me to steer him/us anymore. I see and hear from a person who was happy in many ways within our 20 year relationship but wants changes.

I agree that I am soooo wrapped up in him and my relationship status that I lose myself and forget my self worth. I know and am working harder at keeping this in check. <<<<< this is why I am moving forward with my agreement & purchasing my own house.

~~~~~~~

When I came back to this site & Matt suggested:

You need to remember your DB basics. They worked well for you as he is back to wanting a R with you again. Don't slip back into your old patterns.

What happened that now people think I need to run from him? Unlike sooooo many others on this forum He is not a cheater (he has been faithful), hasn't spent/wiped out our savings account (offers for me to use it ALL to buy a house & he will even offer what he can to accommodate), hasn't mistreated my DD (many children are abandoned) & yet no one tells them to run from those spouses... I don't get it.

And as of lately, is wanting to spend time with me to "see how it goes"... to see if we can be happy & have fun. To go on a vacation with. To spend time with his family.

???????????????????????????????????????

All I have been trying to do is to keep myself from slipping back to my old patterns.

Ohh... to add, and when I say I want to see him prove himself to me...I feel no one believes me.

I found a few things on line that I thought may help you�.

Abusers and manipulators

An abuser is a grand manipulator and will sulk, threaten to leave, and emotionally punish you for not following their idea of how things should be. An abuser will try to make you feel guilty any time you exert your will and assert what is right for you. At times the abuser may appear to be apologetic and loving; the abuse begins again when the abuser feels he or she has your forgiveness.

Cycle of abuse
Emotional abuse, like other types of abuse, tends to take the form of a cycle. In a relationship, this cycle starts when one partner emotionally abuses the other, typically to show dominance. The abuser then feels guilt, but not about what he (or she) has done, but more over the consequences of his actions. The abuser then makes up excuses for his own behavior to avoid taking responsibility over what has happened. The abuser then resumes "normal" behavior as if the abuse never happened and may, in fact, be extra charming, apologetic and giving � making the abused party believe that the abuser is sorry. The abuser then begins to fantasize about abusing his partner again and sets up a situation in which more emotional abuse can take place.

Blames others - If your significant other always blames everything on someone else, namely you, this may be a bad sign. It is not a sign of a healthy relationship if your partner never takes responsibility and never admits to being at fault.

A few more interesting tid bits�

How can you recognize a selfish friend or partner, and how do you stop them from affecting your life?
Selfish people are always lovable, nice and really sweet. It�s true, they really are. For all you know, you may be in love with a selfish person right now, or perhaps you have a best friend who�s selfish. Unfortunately for you, the traits of a selfish person aren�t easy to notice, because they cover their darker side so well. But as the relationship starts to grow, you�d start to feel emotionally weak around this person. And before you know it, they could suck the happiness out of you, and all you can do is watch helplessly.
What makes a person selfish?
A selfish person is one who cares only for their own pleasures, even if it causes pain to someone else. They have no consideration for anyone else, and worry only about their own comfort. Selfish people are well mannered and nice to everyone, but they�re nice only as long as they get something more back in return from the people around them. The irony of it all is that a selfish person wouldn�t even know they�re being selfish. They�d just assume they�re nice people who care about their own happiness more than anything else. But in their pursuit of their own happiness, they carelessly and intentionally walk all over the shattered hearts of any loving person around them.
One of the easiest ways to recognize a selfish partner or a friend is their trait of always extracting more from you, and yet, they never give anything back to you in equal measures.
Selfish people aren�t selfish with everyone
Selfish people subconsciously pick and choose the people they would want to use and trample on. They don�t go looking for people to hurt. But just like a wild animal�s inner instincts, if they come face to face with a caring and emotional person that they see as prey, they use them and abuse them until the relationship eventually falls apart or they find someone better to prey on.
If you come across as intimidating or emotionally closed off to a selfish person, they�d never ever dream of using you. Instead, they�d suck up to you and try to win your affection.
The mind of selfish people
A relationship is an exchange of emotions. In every successful relationship, both partners give and take from each other in equal measures without keeping count. And everything�s just perfect.
But when one partner stops giving back to the relationship, the relationship starts to fail.
When you�re in a relationship with a selfish person, they would continue to extract your love and your affections. But they�d stop giving any love or affection back in return which would leave you feeling weak, unappreciated and miserable.

Signs that your partner is using you
1) Wants space�a lot of space.
2) Behaves like a friend
3) Your not introduced as his partners
4) He�s confused about your R status
5) He talks about his complicated life
6) He is willing to do thing but only on his terms.
7) He dominates the R
8) He wants you to listen but not the other way around.
9) They always squirm out of helping you when you need their help.
10) A selfish friend or lover never commits to anything unless they can get some benefit or favor out of it. They would never do anything selflessly for your benefit.

MM, I can spend all day trying to find things to help you. I think everyone has said it best��

Until you really recognize what is happening to you there is not much anyone can do. I would suggest that you read your threads again.

Wow�I found one more that I hope will help you�.. This is from an abuse victim web site. From where I sit�you meet 10 of the 12 characteristics.

MM, I am only showing this to you to HELP you. I pray that you figure this out and find your true happiness.

Abuse Victim Characteristics

There are abuse victim characteristics that many people in an abusive relationship tend to have in common or display. These can include:

1. Low self esteem (you have admitted this)

2. Emotional and economic dependency (you are tied to him by the business and now cannot buy �your� house until he agrees to the business deal)

3. Continued faith and hope abuser will "grow up" (your quote��I am trying to wait this out�)

4. Depression (you have admitted this)

5. Accepts blame and guilt for actions of others (notice how you keep saying that you apply too much pressure � hence blaming yourself)

6. Socially isolated, (noticed that until we pushed you to GAL you were all alone).

7. Believes in stereotypical sex roles (read your old posts about your R with bf)

8. Has poor self image (another issue tied to your low self esteem0

9. May defend any criticism of abuser (BINGO � this was just pointed out to you0

10. May have repeatedly left, or considered leaving the relationship (I believe you just posted today�a comment that you have LEFT him)

11. Participation in pecking-order battering

12. Stress disorders and/or psychosomatic complaints

I'll close with this...I am willing to go through every single one of your threads and add quotes to each of the bullets above, if it helps you. You tell me....do you need me to do that for you?

Your call MM....your call.

You're lucky the others have stuck with you this long.

From my POV you say that you agree and understand and then you prove that you don't by continuing your same old actions and defending both them and your BF.

I'm out.

While mm hasn't earnt anything, I have from reading over her stuff.

Seeing how she allowed him to treat her was what made me go nc in march. While I m certainly not where I can be or need to be I'm getting there.

I see so much my r in here it's very very scarey, even down to the withheld goods and settlement. Hence I am pushing settlement thru faster, as I do not want to be still haggling this time next year even, let alone in 2 years, I just don't have the patience or time for it.

HI Eric,

Thanks for the list of abusers/manipulators.... while some of this stuff may be true (selfish) the abusing stuff is mostly not. He is only selfish some of the time. He gets enjoyment out of pleasing me and wants to do more. He offers to help with what ever I would need him to do. He is very giving and caring to my parents/daughter.

From what I have read, I think that this is all part of the process of reconciliation... taking the time to reconnect. By me not applying pressure, he is able to come forward. This is a lesson that I MUST learn. This is why I am trying to see this through a little longer so that I can know that I did what I needed to do.

Your list of characteristics are your opinion and are not fully accurate, if we are going to review, let's be accurate & honest:

Abuse Victim Characteristics

There are abuse victim characteristics that many people in an abusive relationship tend to have in common or display. These can include:

1. Low self esteem (you have admitted this) Yes, working on this

2. Emotional and economic dependency (you are tied to him by the business and now cannot buy �your� house until he agrees to the business deal) It is MY choice not to buy a house until the agreement is signed

3. Continued faith and hope abuser will "grow up" (your quote��I am trying to wait this out�) No different than many others on this site. Lighthouse!

4. Depression (you have admitted this) No I have not.

5. Accepts blame and guilt for actions of others (notice how you keep saying that you apply too much pressure � hence blaming yourself) I don't "blame" myself, its part of my growth to recognize it. Isn't this typical again of MLC? (feed the squirrel effect?)

6. Socially isolated, (noticed that until we pushed you to GAL you were all alone). This is absolutely NOT true... had tons of GAL since day one.

7. Believes in stereotypical sex roles (read your old posts about your R with bf) Not understanding this one

8. Has poor self image (another issue tied to your low self esteem0 This is true, working on it

9. May defend any criticism of abuser (BINGO � this was just pointed out to you0 I defend the parts that are not true, I accept and agree what is

10. May have repeatedly left, or considered leaving the relationship (I believe you just posted today�a comment that you have LEFT him) I think was describing how I finally had dropped the rope

11. Participation in pecking-order battering

12. Stress disorders and/or psychosomatic complaints

I am not defending him or myself...This list can be said to pretty much everyone on this site, it does not prove that anyone is in an abusive relationship... However, I can admit that each relationship (even good ones) have some slight resemblances to forms of abuse (at times)

I know what he is working on and what he is willing to do and not do, at this time. I have seen change over the last year and a half. I am not convinced he is where I need him to be as yet, and therefore I am cautious and skeptical. I am sure that he does have some of the traits as mentioned above & by you all. They are traits, but not his whole being.

If I feel that I am being taken advantage of, I will certainly not allow it. My daughter, parents, friends & councellor will be sure to point it out.

I know that the people on this site are caring and take the time to support and advice me. I am ever so grateful.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yesterday, he asked again if I was going to go to his dads for Thanksgiving. I said Yes. Our convo led to changes in him, and how his mom has noticed his changes like taking the time to relax (180) and noticing all the time he is spending with me. He told her that we are getting along.

Last night after work, I asked if he wanted to hang out for a while. He suggested to go into town and grab a beer. I wasn't really feeling like going out, I wanted to stay in. I suggested we grab a pizza and beer and stay in. He really wanted to be out because he feels he always stays in. He then said "lets do whatever you want"... so, we went inside, he got ready, He began to put the moves on me, I was playful & suggested "maybe later"...this made him desire more. I was afraid that if he got what he wanted now, that it would end our time together early...He worked harder to convince me and our evening still went as planned (even longer actually). <<< this is new stuff right here! We came back with pizza and he brought up some beer. While the pizza was re-heating, he wanted to pleasure me... I suggested "later" that I was hungry.. he tried again, but I didn't give in. He motioned for me to come sit beside him on the couch. We watched TV, but not a movie (I think that was too much commitment). He offered a glass of wine (I had often dreamed about being home, having a glass of wine & sitting on my couch again...it was wonderful) ... Around 9:20, I suggested that I leave (trying not to overstay). He suggested that I stay and watch the next segment of the show. I stayed. Then he approached pleasuring me again and I said I needed convincing, that I was tired... but he could try. We cuddled and fooled around a bit. Then it was time for me to go... he said that he enjoyed his night & asked if I did too. He leaned in to kiss me and ask that I text when I got to my parents.

I find that he is becoming more attached and able to be more comfortable with me again. At BD, when our bodies (arm to arm, etc) would briefly touch he would pull away, he would insist on privacy (doors closed) and all affection stopped. <<< this is not the case AT ALL anymore. If we touch briefly, he keeps his body part touching mine or will reach out in return, he now has me back in the house, open policy... he is not hiding anything and I feel that I can do things freely. He no longer closes doors (not even the washroom), his kisses goodbye are on his term (not obligation either).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pearl... I would like to understand and apply more of what I say I "see" and agree with... for this, I will review my posts again and look at working on those things.

Ggrass... I have learned from this site.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I appreciate the opinions as they make me look at myself/situation & be aware.. I feel the need to clarify because I feel that if more of what is being judged has more of the real truth, then I could receive more accurate advice.... this is the ONLY reason that I clarify (old MM behaviour). It is not about pointing out that someone is wrong. I am not trying to do that. Sorry, if this offends anyone.

MM,
I'm not going to go down your list of Eric's "opinions" (these aren't opinions, MM. They are things that you show us when you post word for word conversations with XBF) and rebuttals. I'm just going to say one thing.....sometimes the things you think are being "judged" the wrong way, that YOU see as "untrue" are the very things that ARE true...you are just too close to see it. What offends isn't that you are proving someone as being "wrong" about something. What offends is that you aren't able to understand that what YOU think is true may not be which is why you need advice in the first place. If you were looking at your sitch accurately you wouldn't need to ask for help at all.

If what you say in the first paragraph of your last post was true, you would be happy and in a healthy R. The person you describe in that paragraph is not the person who you have talked about in the last 2,500+ posts, MM. If he really was behaving the way you described, you wouldn't even be here.

Lastly, if you think a "good" R has any of the characteristics of abuse as described by Eric, you have deeper problems than an XBF in MLC. Yes, many on here are in similar situations with their H/W BUT we know that is not what a healthy R is AND it wasn't always like this. If my W acted the way Eric describes from the start of our R, I wouldn't have M her to begin with. Her behaving towards me the way she is now is not the way she has for the last 26 years. It is new, out of character, not the way she acted in the past and it is impossible to have anything close to a good R while it is happening. If you think that any abuse is "normal" you need to look deeper inside of you and see why you think that it's OK for MM to be treated like that EVER.

I could easily spend the time to go back and find examples of XBF behaving the way Eric tried to show you....several examples, not just one or two. Open your mind to the fact that you may not be seeing your own situation in an unbiased way. That is the only way that you will be able to get where you need to be.

Hey Matt... thanks for pointing that out... I was already thinking along the lines of what you are saying which is why I came back to post. Thank you for explaining in a gentle way.... I appreciate it. It comes across as a gentle hug.

I am very much too close to my situation and therefore value an outsiders opinion.

I will take a half of the pill from above because only part of it is truth.

An example of what is half truth is my business deal/house situation. It is ME who is putting a road block from buying a house because I want my deal in writing BEFORE I take money from the business. It is suggested that HE is preventing me from buying the house and that is not true. He is more than willing to give me any amount of money I want to take from the business or even a personal loan from him. Because I am firm on wanting to do a personal deal first, I am withholding from myself. Although he is not agreeing with how I want to do it... He IS willing to do it MY way and therefore we are finishing up our agreement. He wants to get it past us & move forward. There are things in that agreement that we both don't like but will accept so that its finalized. period.

So, when someone posts what they THINK and its not the truth, I get defensive & feel the need to clarify because I want the reader to know the whole story so they can form their opinion and give advice from that point.

What I posted in that last post is TRUE... however, he is a work in progress... He is not fully who I need him to be.... He is still coming out of his MLC. Like many of the others who post on this site we write about the good, the bad & the ugly...., maybe I do this wrong???

I think that good relationships have temporary moments of the characteristics of above. If they are lasting...thats a REAL problem. Sometimes situations place those we love in insane conditions...temporarily!

I would truly love to see my situation in an unbiased way.... I am open to hear and be shown, but please allow me to clarify & then continue to show me past that. This will be a HUGE help to me. One at a time.

Taking a half of the pill now!

So did last night feel like your H was pursuing you ? Was the night executed without any pressure from Magic ? these are all small steps.

For the record I think any relationship can take characteristics of abuse from either partner in a time of crisis. BREAK UPS are ugly and painful! Just MHO.

soooooo... I placed an offer on a house tonight. I did it ALL by myself, didn't even refer to him for his opinion. I saw it at an open house at 3:30, showed it to my daughter by 4...offering by 5:30.

It was set up for multi offer. I offered their asking price and gave a large deposit. I went in without conditions other than an inspection.... and ... I still didn't get it.

UGHHHH... nerve wrecking!!

We then (DD & I) went out for dinner with my agent friend and his daughter.

I eventually told Xbf and he was pretty receptive of all messages.. texting me back within seconds! Each message. He is anxious to hear all about it, and says "we will have a nice day tomorrow and you can tell me all about it"... he then went on to tell me about his cousin who was admitted into the hospital today. I responded appropriately and he told me of a cat that is hanging around our new business location. I ended the convo.

I was busy having dinner.

I was preparing myself to settle in to re-read my posts to review from an unbiased opinion.

What was posted:

Upon my return it was recognized that my Xbf was back to wanting a R with me again. That I have grown & was capable of change. Watching and adjusting my behaviours that required changing worked and made me a better person (still under construction). I was congratulated. I was told he was moving in the right direction. & encouraged to continue without pressure (180).

I believed I was following good advice at that time.

What I also found was that a few opinions were posted that were not fact based and the other readers were misinformed & it steam-rolled into the telephone effect & went down hill from there.

I am only on page 2!!!

Other than the above, I am still able to take a few notes & accept truths:

1) I MATTER!
2) my needs come first
3) finalize business deal
4) prove my independence
5) watch for my co-dependency
6) give space/take space
7) let him lead... let me be HIS choice
8) I am interviewing him

I hope the above comment doesn't offend anyone. Matt stated:

"What offends is that you aren't able to understand that what YOU think is true may not be which is why you need advice in the first place. If you were looking at your sitch accurately you wouldn't need to ask for help at all." <<<<< SO then, lets look at my sitch accurately!!!

and Pearl stated:

"From my POV you say that you agree and understand and then you prove that you don't by continuing your same old actions and defending both them and your BF." <<< This is what lead me to want to re-read my posts... I do not intentionally want to defend my actions or his. I just feel the need to clarify sometimes.

today:

He asked if I wanted to go to costco & home depot today. I accepted. He wanted to hear about how my house offering went..details. He volunteered how he spent his evening (pizza/beer/at home). We grabbed a coffee to go, he had fresh cookies ready with him. He seemed very interested but not pushy & somewhat curious about my not involving him in address, etc of the house I offered on. We also discussed our business deal and agreed we would finish it up this week (lets see). While entering a store he sarcastically commented something about guys bringing their wifes/gfs to this mens store. I gave a quick comment back & he commented about my "a$$ remark" I said something like he should appreciate that I am not one of those wives... then he said something about he feels he is appreciating me. I just said "good, keep it up". A little while later, I received a reminder text that I had a few other houses to view today & I ended our time short. We never did get to costco or home depot. He was going to go without me, but I asked to see if he would wait for me or go alone. I said I would call when I was done. I gave him a text about 45 mins later, he was still waiting for me. I suggested shopping with him another time this week. He said that the house stuff was more important. ... (I was surprised that he didn't go on his own). By this time, I had gone shopping with my DD & to think about the house I had just viewed. We were thinking of another offer. I involved him a little about the address & to go view online... he seemed interested and wanting some involvement.

It is very scary to be buying a house on my own. All I ever wanted was to be in a family home together... (sad)

I guess this is independence...

MM,

I am sorry, I am confused�.on one hand you acknowledge that you are too close to the sitch (see below)

Originally Posted By: from MM

I am very much too close to my situation and therefore value an outsiders opinion.

While at the same token, you write that you need to �clarify�, the �real truth� so that you �could receive more accurate advice�. (see below)

Originally Posted By: from MM

I feel the need to clarify because I feel that if more of what is being judged has more of the real truth, then I could receive more accurate advice.... this is the ONLY reason that I clarify

[quote from MM]Your list of characteristics are your opinion and are not fully accurate, if we are going to review, let's be accurate & honest:[/quote]

Then it appears as if, you begin to rethink your previous comments�about the accuracy of the advice (see below)

Originally Posted By: from MM

was preparing myself to settle in to re-read my posts to review from an unbiased opinion.

Maybe I am wrong, who knows. I am not sure that I can help you and for that I apologize. If your expectation is to receive advice that just supports what it is that you have already decided to do, then IMO, that is not advice that you are looking for - it is validation of the choice that YOU have already made, which is fine.

Originally Posted By: from MM

What I also found was that a few opinions were posted that were not fact based and the other readers were misinformed & it steam-rolled

Honestly, I found this quote quite offensive. I do respect that this is how you feel though.

Quote:

from Matt��"What offends is that you aren't able to understand that what YOU think is true may not be which is why you need advice in the first place. If you were looking at your sitch accurately you wouldn't need to ask for help at all."�.and MM�s response <<<<< SO then, lets look at my sitch accurately!!!

�Look at your sitch accurately�. I am sorry that you feel that way. I can only base my response on what you write. The apostrophes� at the end of your statement, felt to me as if you were screaming that no one has been looking at your sitch objectively. That IMO, is not the case and quite offensive.

Then you follow with this quote�.toward someone who was no longer posting, that someone found to come back and hopefully try and help you�.

Originally Posted By: from MM in response to Pearls quote

"From my POV you say that you agree and understand and then you prove that you don't by continuing your same old actions and defending both them and your BF." <<< This is what lead me to want to re-read my posts... I do not intentionally want to defend my actions or his. I just feel the need to clarify sometimes.

You say you do not �intentionally want to defend my actions or his�.yet you do. You claim that you want to �clarify� while at the same token you say you are too close to the sitch.

I find your rational, justification, explanations sad and offensive. I am not saying that you need to agree with people � nope. It is your choice to do with the advice what you feel like. It just feels to me, that you consistently tell everyone that they are wrong.

I was going to go back to your original post and create a timeline to show you what I see and what I think (assumption on my part) others see. I do not think that will help you.

If you are happy in your current sitch, then I honestly wish you well. I hope that whatever it is that you are trying to achieve that you achieve it. I really do. I am truly sorry that I was unable to help you. If I said anything to offend you I sincerely apologize.

Good luck.

I am sincerely sorry if I offended anyone... this was not my intention. I am not trying to make anyone wrong. I am sorry if my exclamation marks came off as screaming... this is not how I was feeling.

I do want to clarify, and YES... I am too close to the sitch. I admit, I am biased but there are some comments posted that are just not true & it may affect a readers next comment or opinion or affect the advice given/received.

There is a difference.

I want truths and facts to be presented.

Off the top of my head there are 4 things that were stated that were not fact.

1) that he is not offering a long term monogamous relationship & hasn't for 20 years
2) that he is not going to put my name or complete our business deal. That I will wait & wait & wait.
3) that he is not allowing me to have my money to buy a house
4) abusive relationship (this may have been stated based on the above statements)

.... ^^^^^ these are not how I feel, but fact.

I feel like the advice given for me is to add pressure/demand (because of 20 years and business) or to run far away from him.

When I have "agreed" with the posters, it is because I can see resemblances or truths to what they are trying to get me to see. However, this does not mean that I know how to handle the situation any better.

I do feel "hooked" by his statement that suggests: the grass isn't greener out there so lets be patient, we have a 20 year history & lets see how it goes...its only been a few weeks (since Aug actually). Don't push it and wreck it. Lets take the time to make sure its right. That I would have to invest and start brand new with someone new anyway. <<<<<< I do feel what he says is true, but it holds me in a standstill position. I can't see clearly.

My understanding is to view this as a NEW relationship. Not back to the old one because we both have changed.

If in a new relationship... time has to happen. You cannot just jump back into a full blown relationship again... Hence, 'piecing' and "take time", "do not rush, be patient" are plastered all over this website. <<<<< I understand THIS too!

I truly appreciate & admire Pearls wisdom & how she handled her situation. She did not want to wait & outlast the MLC. She eventually got b@lls and put her rel'p to the test. Like most others on here, I don't think I am quite capable of doing that... not fully, anyway.

I am not looking for validation (maybe at times, if I do something right)... I do want advice that can help me to get what I want/need in my relationship with him.

I appreciate all the comments/advice given. I hope to receive more.

Please understand that I may counter reply as to hopefully get/give a better understanding...it is not suggesting that someone is wrong, but maybe sometimes what I might add might change the advice given..... just maybe.

Hugs, MM

I for one am not offended, MM. I know you're doing the best you can and I do sincerely hope things work out for you.

No worries from me!!

Starsky

MM,

First off I was thinking that maybe�just maybe�I was confusing your sitch with someone elses. I�m only human after all. So I went back and started to read your threads�.My first observation is that amount of disagreeing you did/do with a lot of other posters. They respond to your post, you tell them you they are wrong, they point it out, you tell them you are wrong. The only poster that you do not disagree with are the ones that disagree with you.

That said��.

Originally Posted By: Today

Off the top of my head there are 4 things that were stated that were not fact.

See below and my response�.using YOUR words�none of the below is anything that I or any other poster said�these are all your quotes. Hopefully, you may be able to see why I posted what I see�..or the items on the list that you claim are false. I ran out of time, and only used your first few posts, if you think this will help, I�ll go through all of your MLC posts and show you the similar quotes from you. In all cases, these are YOURS words � not mine or no onese elses it is the only thing anyone here has to go on�..

Originally Posted By: Today you said this is not fact

1) that he is not offering a long term monogamous relationship & hasn't for 20 years

Originally Posted By: Feb 14

How do I not appear as "waiting"?

Originally Posted By: Feb-19

he says that maybe h just needs to come out from all the burden on his shoulders of our business situation

Originally Posted By: Mar 8

Monday's convo was also about I will not wait and didn't think he should either

Originally Posted By: Mar 8

20 years ago he asked me out... but it first took for me to have interest. Teach me the right incentive !!! PLEASE !!... He even expected me to be the only one to pursue even SEX!

Originally Posted By: Mar 22

I try hard to please him, its never good enough. I am afraid to displease him as he will... ?? never marry me?? Never want me?? Never be good enough??... all the above and more!

I know this isn't healthy, and I have no clue where/how to begin.

Originally Posted By: Mar 22

he would consider marrying me. So, I have been caving in to his requests/demands, etc....for that to happen. Pathetic eh?

Originally Posted By: Mar 22

Ok, not married because he is chicken? I was 26, he was 29. H is chicken of marriage, but assumed it would one day "just happen" or not... he's not a big fan of it, because his parents split after 25 years.

Originally Posted By: in response to Mr. Bond asking why he never asked you to marry him

Years and years of pleading, leaving clues, many discussions... overlooked.

Originally Posted By: Apr1

I am feeling worried that my h is possibly keeping me baited to continue in our business. Keeping the carrot dangling (reconcilliation).

Originally Posted By: Apr 1

knowing who my h is.. baiting & carrot dangling is what he does. I just am realizing that he may be doing this to me now too. Never saw it before

Originally Posted By: Apr 1

Yes, part of his sales tactics is to bait/keep on the hook (he did this for marriage

Originally Posted By: Apr 2

Again, he would not commit and does not want to be held accountable.

Originally Posted By: Today you said this is not fact

2) that he is not going to put my name or complete our business deal. That I will wait & wait & wait.

Originally Posted By: Feb 28

Several of my new friends say that he is cake eating as he knows I am "waiting" .... how do I stop "waiting"

Originally Posted By: Mar 4

He is sooo focused on the business turning around so that we can be in a better place financially

Originally Posted By: Mar 6

I will wait for him to place me back into his life... this is a NEW change for me.

Originally Posted By: Mar 11

So, I am on his schedule. This does not feel good.

Originally Posted By: Apr1

I have been invested and keep investing in hopes of our reconcilliation. I am kind of bullied here and am on eggshells still trying to please him.

Originally Posted By: Just in case you forgot�in Apr of last year�you were pushing to get the business stuff worked out. You wanted the business issue resolved NOW�.how is that working for ya

I don't think its a poor business decision, but it is a poor personal decision for me.. which is why I think its surfacing NOW.

Originally Posted By: Apr

His intentions are to pay me what the business owes me first (initial investment value). He insists on this. Then again, he wants to buy more inventory first. GEEZ.

Originally Posted By: Apr 3

He has suggested that due to our business needs that I come over (tonight) and we can work together on our product so that it can be ready sooner.

Originally Posted By: Today you said this is not fact

3) that he is not allowing me to have my money to buy a house

Originally Posted By: Today you said this is not fact

4) abusive relationship (this may have been stated based on the above statements) .

Below are YOUR quotes and what at least for me, led me to make non �factual� statements re: abusive and selfish behaviors/relationships. Based on the below�.if you feel that I have misunderstood your quotes, of if you believe that the below quotes are not signs of an abusive R�.I am not sure what is abusive.

Originally Posted By: Feb 13

He is a workaholic and would reprimand me for having a life.

Originally Posted By: Feb 14

My councellor even called me a doormat.

Originally Posted By: Feb 14

I normally cave to his calls/requests and eagerly jump to his needs.

Originally Posted By: Feb 28

as I have been a doormat for too long.

Originally Posted By: Mar 3

This is so unlike me to not be a doormat and be availabale to him and all his demands of me.

Originally Posted By: Mar 5

And I have been a doormat to his wants and needs for 20years. Every aspect of our rel'p I have catered to his needs from sex demands to how I do the dishes.

Originally Posted By: Mar 5

Thank you again Mr Bond for your reply... however, trust me, I was a DOORMAT (and still might be), and didn't realize I was being one.

Originally Posted By: Mar 5

As for not treating me well�� Things like high work expectations, not speaking pleasantly, not appreciating me, demanding of sex on his terms, not physical/affectionate towards me, not wanting to spend time with me anymore, etc. Never happy with me or what I was trying to do. Hard to please.

Originally Posted By: Mar 5

Yes, within our relationship he did treat me like a doormat & I allowed it. Not suggesting this is good, AT ALL.

Originally Posted By: Mar 5

It was not fun for me, and yes he was very controlling.

Originally Posted By: Mar 11

I have been and still am "CONTROLLED" by him

Originally Posted By: Mar 11

I wake up and have been living my life in fear of not pleasing him. This is not healthy.

Originally Posted By: Mar 11

He makes all the judgement and calls of when, how, where we do business. I JUMP!

Originally Posted By: Mar 11

which led to me being a doormat.

Originally Posted By: Mar 13

I find him selfish. Always has been.

Originally Posted By: Mar 22

He just dangles the "carrot" on my behaviour, and frowns upon my efforts. I try hard to please him, its never good enough. I am afraid to displease him as he will... ?? never marry me?? Never want me?? Never be good enough??... all the above and more!

I know this isn't healthy, and I have no clue where/how to begin.

Originally Posted By: Mar 31

I have been a puppet, therefore have not been detached.

Originally Posted By: Mar 31

let me also add, h is usually frustrated and this also makes its way to me

Originally Posted By: Mar 31

its this kind of stuff that keeps me on eggshells.

Originally Posted By: Apr 1

Yes, I am a doormat (I cater to his whims/demands and act based on his emotions).

Originally Posted By: Apr 1

HE IS EXTREMELY STUBBORN & selfish.

Originally Posted By: Apr 7

yes, I am afraid of doing the wrong thing... for years... because I was always told it was the wrong thing!

You also said over and over that you were piecing�interesting enough, you said this today�.

Quote:

You cannot just jump back into a full blown relationship again... Hence, 'piecing' and "take time", "do not rush, be patient" are plastered all over this website.

For the record�this is your X time piecing according to you (once again�I am using what YOU wrote)..see below..

Originally Posted By: Mar 4

please respond: is this piecing?

You eventually I THINK came to realize that you were not piecing but as usual�..just a few days later (after you agreed with people that you were not piecing)�

Originally Posted By: Mar 12

I am pretty sure this is the start to piecing, based on the 5 r convo's I have

Then interesting enough�.you started a thread over in the piecing section of the boards, even though EVERY poster who posted to you said you were not in piecing.

Thank you for taking the time to write that. I wonder if there is a way to actually speak to you "live"... is there?

I am not trying to make you wrong... just accurate. I am really not disagreeing with you on ALL counts, just some. I do NOT want to come across as argumentative.

Originally Posted By: Blue_Sky

..... Most of what you posted was my thoughts and feelings and situation from over a year and a half ago. Both my Xbf & myself have grown and changed, including our situation.

For example (reviewing backwards) you are looking at my "piecing" statements from March 2013... as a newbie, I was desperate to think that I was in piecing like many others on this site. I didn't really understand what it was. I was just hopeful to be there based on lip service.

The example I was trying to give about "commitment/monogamous"... 1) was that HE is monogamous & faithful and has been for 20+ years, still & even since BD. I will agree that his level of commitment is not marriage. He still likes to be held within a committed type relationship. He is not a player & does not want to be a bachelor.

2) I will agree that I have been "waiting" for a very long time for my business deal to take place (8 years). When I first came to this site, I didn't even have an agreement in place... throughout this past year, a mediated agreement has been formed (movement).

3) "he is not allowing me to buy a house".... there was nothing to back this comment up.

4) abusive... Bond pointed out how I enabled some "doormat" behaviours, he has since come to respect me.

As mentioned, change & growth has happened.... these statements are old.

I am rushing out the door right now, but will review how I was feeling & see if any of this resonates to my feelings/sitch now. I have not fully read the "abuse" type comments... I am sure there are some truths still in there.

Magic,
This Board is set up to be anonymous for the posters for many reasons. We do not give out personal telephone numbers or email addresses on the Board. A long time ago we were allowed to do so until we had some stalkers and trolls posting here who became utter pests to posters, not only here, but in their personal lives. Since that time, we aren't allowed to share that information w/other posters. However, if you were to reach out to the posters, you may discover that there is a DB Facebook site that many use and that's how they communicate and meet up w/others. I may be wrong, but I think you need to be invited to join the group. Also, it is not a part of this Forum, but made up of many of the people who post here who want to chat off line in a different setting.

Tx Job... much appreciated.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Today/tonight... spent most of the day together under the guise of 'entertaining/casual work/drive' .... when discussed, he said that he chose to be more casual and include me along for the ride as opposed to doing it by himself. That he is taking the time to enjoy the day and not just be work, work, work attitude.

At one point, we had spare time and he jokingly said that we could fool around to kill the time.. I just laughed it off, suggesting that my standards were higher than fooling around in the car or at work. He offered more comfort back at the house. Again, not really taking him seriously.

On our way back to work, he suggested & offered to stop along our way back in the neighbourhood of where I could consider buying a commuter type house (possible good idea for DD starter home). We also grabbed coffee & he had picked up fresh cookies for us to have. He asked again if I was going to his dads T-giving. I said that I had given him the answer the other day. He didn't think I had. Said yes again & that I would like to bring my Mom's pumpkin pie. He said that he had already ordered (from the cookie place) 2 pumpkin pies. I was a little bugged because I really wanted my mom's pies instead of his store bought ones. He insisted that his were homemade too. I recommended that he cancel one & we each bring a pie. Not sure where this ended. He seemed pretty stuck on bringing his ordered pies!

Back at work, it was raining out. We sat in the car...He brought up & discussed how he wants to go soon to Miami and sit on the beach and go out for breaky, sit on the beach, go out for lunch, sit on the beach and then go out for dinner/night life. To leave everything else behind and relax. We discussed previous other fun vacations as well. He waited for me to finish my coffee (much later), and then he got into work mode. Our client arrived and we closed the deal (YAY). While client was gone to the bank, he asked if I wanted to come back to the house to get the vehicle that was there and drive that for the night, I was busy writing the deal and didn't answer... A little while later he asked again... I joked " is that your way to asking if I want to make out or hang out?" ... he clarified that he would like to hang out and go for pizza & beer locally after the client leaves. After the client left, he asked again "so, do you want to have a beer... or..??". I said "I'd actually like a glass of wine", and we then closed up shop & went to the restaurant.. for a light bite & drink. We had small talk, a lot of silence. I brought up his parents relationship & how I think he fears his parents getting too close & his fears of mom wrecking it for them. He prefers that they just be companions. And that they don't have to label it. (he has used that "label" term with me recently too.. I don't like it much, however he referred about living/sleeping together as a difference). I didn't persist the point. I pointed out that the less he does for his mom, how that opens up an opportunity for his dad to step in. He nodded. I think he thinks of ways of how his parents could live together somehow again... if mom wasn't such a pack rat.

The vehicle I was going to drive was back at his place. When we arrived he got it ready & started it for me. As much as I wanted him to invite me in, I guess that was my clue to leave & not linger... He came over to hug. It was a friendly type hug.. not very satisfying... I reached up to give him a more passionate kiss. He kissed back, but stated that after a meal he is not usually in a sexual mood. <<<< WHAT? ok...whatever. I know that if I had asked or commented that I was in "the mood" that he would deliver... but, at least this way I feel at ease that he doesn't appear to be using me for sex. I walked to my car.

I struggled in my head with this one... and went back because I wanted to know "if" I was in the mood would he have delivered?... When I started the convo, a voice in my head said STFU... so, I did.. I found an excuse to finish what I started and then said good bye. (180)

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I wonder if there is a way to actually speak to you "live"... is there?

Job is correct in that many people would like to remain anonymous, especially for the reasons Job mentions. That said, I am pretty open dude - if you want to reach me

Sharing contact information is not allowed on this site.

Just remember...this is not about being right or wrong.

You mentioned that other posters agree with your approach. My approach may be a bit different....it is based on trying to get you to a healthy place in yourself and in your R - be it with your BF or with someone else.

When I first came here...I did not KNOW how to have a healthy R. The advice was more geared toward "saving my relationship". I firmly believe in Marriage and in committed relationships. I just believe that they require two people who are BOTH healthy.

So although others may say...yeah do this or do that...you should ask yourself...how healthy is the R that they are in now. That is not criticizing anyone...it is my opinion.

so now you know how to contact me.

I'll close with this....

I'm not here to be your friend, I'm not here to just make you feel better, I'm here because I believe in the DB principals and if I can help someone, then great. So if you want so one to always validate you, to never point out things that you may not see or choose not to see...then I am the wrong guy to talk to.

Case in point.....the "old times" who posted to me KNEW that bullchit I was telling myself. They never let up, the never let me skate by. They pushed...they challenged and for that...I will be forever grateful.

I hope you come to that say place.... a place of peace...a place of realizing what is healthy and what is not. For example....

You have convinced yourself that you were too "pushy" so now...you have gone the complete opposite. Your BF drives everything. You really just react to what he says and does MOST of the time. What I hope you come to realize is that believe it or not...it is not healthy. An R requires two people. It requires work on both sides. You have needs and wants and so does he. Giving up your needs and wants....IMO, not good. The same can be said for him. Finding the balance is the hard part, the balance though should not be....MM doing what he says or MM using tricks and tactics to get him back. Think about it...is that you being YOUR authentic self? Is that you being MM? IMO, NO - it is you being the MM that HE wants and that is not healthy.

You know where to reach me.

Thanks Eric...

On occasion it would be helpful to have someone validate what I am doing right for me/him or my relationship. I am scrambling to know what I am doing right. With that said, I really really do want to be called on the BS I tell myself at times.

I know that I come across as argumentative and it comes across as I am trying to make someone else wrong... this is not the case. Promise. I just really feel that if someone knew more information that they might have a different opinion. So, when I do this I am not against being wrong or informed of what outsiders see... I just feel that if they knew more of the story, they might change their opinion, as well. As for me, I do consider what is being suggested, even if I don't like it.

I do want a healthy relationship... Yes, I want him back but not at the cost of losing myself again. I am working on defining what my needs/wants are. Trying to figure out what is my line in the sand (I keep moving it). I know that my needs/wants include KNOWING that he wants me. To figure this out.. I need to step back and allow the space for him to come forward. I chased and was pushy during our relationship, I don't want to do that again. It was my growth that tells me that I need to go opposite... however, I see that you are suggesting that there can still be a balance. To not give in to whatever HE wants only.... I want to see him make efforts and do some jumping for me. I do not want to indulge in the "carrot/bait/hook" game again. I want to be assured of what he does want.... (hoping he realizes that its me).

I will not give up my needs & wants. Right now, I NEED to see his efforts come forth & NEED to spend time re-building. I also NEED to be independent (as uncomfy as this makes me feel). I need to know he loves me and wants to be with me. I also need to be sure that he is not just taking me off the shelf on his whims just to put me back on it when he is done. I want to know how to know the difference.

The thing is too... is that he is admitting that HE is changing. He feels that he is appreciating me, he feels he is making the right efforts for his lifestyle, and he feels he is including me. .... To me, this is good... for him. It just hasn't quite translated to me as much as I want/need... just yet.

I do want gentle pushes, and nudges.... I ask that whoever tries and continues to be on my team, to understand that I will likely challenge it back, but to KNOW that its not to make them wrong. Its just a position I take hoping that my rebuttal will make a difference to the advice. I will watch for this as well.

Thanks Eric & everyone else.

MM

MM

So now you know how to contact me�

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I just really feel that if someone knew more information that they might have a different opinion.

If by your own admission you may not be able to see something�..can you see how trying to provide �more information� could be viewed as you really still not being able to see something? Think about it�.if you read your threads�you might see that more than not�everyone is saying the same thing.

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I do want a healthy relationship... Yes, I want him back but not at the cost of losing myself again.

Would you say that you know what a healthy relationship looks like? If so, describe it.

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I am working on defining what my needs/wants are.

So you are working on defining YOUR needs. Right? See below�

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I know that my needs/wants include KNOWING that he wants me.

Notice�YOUR need is for something that YOU have NO CONTROL OVER. Really, what you are saying is you want HIM to be what YOU want HIM to be and NOT what he is.

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I need to step back and allow the space for him to come forward.

Is that what YOU think a healthy R is? Notice�YOUR NEED is tied to HIS ACTION.

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I want to see him make efforts and do some jumping for me.

Once again�you want HIM�.the above statement is not about YOU or YOUR dreams at all. Also, how can he jump unless you give him a LOT OF TIME (i.e. more than a day, week or even a month) to miss you.

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I do not want to indulge in the "carrot/bait/hook" game again.

THEN DON�T! Yet when you post it comes across as a cat and mouse game. Ohhh�I�ll do this in the hopes that he does that OR if I don�t do this�then maybe he will do that�. This is a tactic.

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I NEED to see his efforts come forth & NEED to spend time re-building.

Once again�your goals (excluding buying a house) are all based on HIM. What �he does��I �want him to��.�that he�. All about him and not much about what MM wants for herself � ASIDE from HIM. FTR, you are your own person � aside from him. You are your own women � aside from him. Who is that person MM? Who is MM away from her BF?

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I need to know he loves me and wants to be with me.

NEED vs. WANT. You see you do NOT NEED him�you WANT him � big difference. I suspect though�that you really do �feel� like you �NEED� him and there is the problem.

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I also need to be sure that he is not just taking me off the shelf on his whims just to put me back on it when he is done.

What is �sure� in life MM? If he says he is sure today and then changes his mind tomorrow � are you in any different place then where you are today? Psst�notice again��he��.that he�.when he�

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I want to know how to know the difference.

YOU THINK You do�but you really do not. Everyone has told you the difference. For example�. If I LOVED my partner with everything in me�and I wanted her to be happy and to feel secure�then I would run to the L and legally split the company giving her half. I would NOT procrastinate. FTR, if something is that IMPORTANT � YOU DO NOT WAIT. Really, IMO, you just want HIM back. Period.

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is that he is admitting that HE is changing.

ACTIONS speak louder than words.

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He feels that he is appreciating me, he feels he is making the right efforts for his lifestyle, and he feels he is including me

Ummm�.He , he, he , he, he�. For HIS lifestyle. Lemme rewrite that, if I was sitting in your shoes.

He feels that he is appreciating me, yet the most important things that I (capital I) want he is not giving me. He feels like he is making the right effort and although I may not agree perse�his right effort is not enough for ME (capital me). I know I deserve more. I have given him everything I could. As I write this�I just realized that everything is about HIM and his needs � I want a lifestyle too. Ya know what�.I think I�m gonna live my lifestyle and maybe�.I �include� him � not the other way around.

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I do want gentle pushes, and nudges

Okay here is a gentle push�..

Get your share of the business before he changes his freaking mind again. Go buy your house or go on a kick arse vacation. Sit down and write down goals for YOURSELF that do not involve him. Go find YOURSELF�who MM is�.when the lights are off, when her kids are out of the house�when bf drops dead, is working or leaves ya�who the heck is MM? I still do not know and I suspect you do not either.

Then again�.you could always wait and ask BF what HE thinks YOU should be.

It is time MM�.

asking for advice:

today is Xbfs bday.... DD asked him out last night for tonight. Today, he asks me if I want to join them. I think its great that he asked me to join.

Should I go?

1) If I go, He gets nice family time for his bday, like he wants. (he did not come to mine, however, I could tell he was on the fence)
2) If I don't go, I could just say that I will just let the two of them go out as we were just out for beer/pizza last night. .... (therefore I am not at his convenience).

WARNING: there will be a rebuttal to anyone who may comment as I am withholding a key piece of information that I do not want to be part of anyones initial response.

Thanks!!

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WARNING: there will be a rebuttal to anyone who may comment as I am withholding a key piece of information that I do not want to be part of anyones initial response.

Are you kidding me? Honestly, the above statement...says to me..that this is soooo much a game of tactics.

My answer is regardless of what information you are "holding back" - is do whatever it is that you want or feel like doing with NO EXPECTATIONS.

ok... thx Eric. It was not about tactics, but wanted an opinion that did not include my DD...yet.

I find it hard to determine the diff between hope and expectations... will think more about that.

The reason I was withholding was due to my DD's feelings about me being there.

I want & will likely consider HER feelings first, but wondered if fair/right...its his bday and he "asked" for me to be there. <<< this is a nice thing.

I want to do what is right for ME... a woman who has self value and is not available on HIS call, all the time.

Her feelings are that she is uncomfortable in "family setting".. she wants to KNOW that we are working on us.. not just "seeing how it goes". She is making her stance. I understand her feelings. She wants HIM to know that too (but today is not quite the day to discuss awkwardness)

update: I did not go for dinner with them.

my explanation to him when he asked again was that I was letting them go for dinner & that I had seen him the night before. His response was "thats my choice". He even attempted to offer a Keg dinner, thinking I would be inclined by that... LOL.

When they got back, I called his mom to offer to get something on her behalf (due to her injury). He was in the room with her (I got off phone), I sent a text message... happy birthday, cheers. He thanked me and cheered back.

Hi MM, I think declining was okay, but was this what YOU wanted? My concern is YOU making decisions based on DD or XBF. Did you want to decline? Think about MM first for a change.