Hello all, time for a new thread!
I forgot how to post my old thread link here, but oh well!
So it seems the theme of things has transitioned into dealing with old wounds, while still marching on through everyday life despite the wreckage we've been left to deal with.
Is there any possible way to do this without any pain, frustration and anger? HELL NO! I think we LB's just make it look easy really!
Im working through a book to help me manage my anger. One thing that has really helped me feel relieved is that unmet needs result in anger! Boy howdy, and Im seeing it too.
I've also been in contact with XB.
Looks like we're back on again....
I may regret this. Or I may not. But my eyes are WIDE OPEN. We've discussed at length over many days the dynamics of our relationship and how our anger issues are playing a big role in our fights.
I think what I really need to figure out and Im obviously really struggling with is if I can handle his expressions of anger and mood swings. I for the life of me can not figure out of he's seriously depressed or just a jerk by nature.
Post away friends! I probably have a few 2 by 4s coming anyway.
No whacks in the head from me.
You've earned your stripes. I'm sure you can handle whatever comes.
So, now you can give me advice.
I've been seeing this guy...off and on...mostly off lately. But, I'm hopelessly naive with this stuff. I married Smokey at 22 and had, maybe?, one serious boyfriend before him.
So, this guy is fun and smart and I enjoy his company. But, he will, occasionally, send me texts of a sexual nature. Nothing that bothers me...kinda fun...whatever...but, then, he will throw in a picture or two. He's about ten years younger and I'm thinking...maybe this is a younger, whipper-snapper kinda thing??? IDK.
So, I noticed that he will do this and then give me the time of day he took the picture. Wha?? And, it will be a picture he took like that morning or last week or whatever...
So, I'm like WTF?
I had sorta written him off and only hear from him every once in a while. Then, today, we are communicating.
It escalates and I'm cool. Having some fun...no big. Then, WHAM! he sends a picture. M-kay.
I play along...without sending anything back! Seriously, not doing that.
But, then, he says he took the picture this morning. So, I can't stand it...I say, "Why are you taking these photos of yourself?"
He says he does this occasionally with a video here and there. M-k......I'm a little weirded out.
So, I say, "What sort of stuff are you into? I'm not judging, but I'm wondering about all these pics and videos?"
He says, and I quote, "Just enjoying a sexual life including but not limited to photo and video."
I should probably run, right??
This is a brave new world Kim and I was old like when I was 12.
Lol.... Lois....
Well I can see what's on his mind girl!
Honestly Lois, it's completely up to you! If this makes you feel uncomfortable, then you best say something. What does your gut tell you?
However he sounds like he's into some voyeurism!
Im just saying! LOl
I'm not sure if I trust my gut.
Was I wrong to ask him about it? I know it ruined the moment and he went really quiet for a bit. Then, came back with the very vague, politically correct response. I just responded with, "That's pretty vague."
I left it there.
IDK. I think he is a nice guy. I think he is lonely but won't admit it. I think he is afraid to get really intimate with anyone...as in intimate in the sense that you share your feelings and such...but, completely ok with the other intimate. LOL.
I kinda like that he is so free and open, but I feel like I'm maybe outta my league here...in the sense that I am a complete idiot with this kinda stuff and he could be a serial killer/pedaphile and I would have no idea.
But, maybe that's not true. I had a student who had some inappropriate sexual tendencies and I sensed it fairly soon. I knew something wasn't quite right. I don't get that with this guy. I get that he has a healthy sexual appetite and it's maybe a bit misguided right now because he isn't in a monogamous relationship.
What is he doing that is different this time?
Unless he changes his behaviour you are going to get into a cycle of same old same old. It is actions and not words that count.
Own your behaviour and let him own his. We lbs are inclined to try and own what others do. It isn't our problem. And we can't fix other people.
Sorry for the hijack Kim. I can't talk myself outta his being weird...it's just a lil too creepy for me. Chalk this one up to experience.
^^^^^^^What Bea said...what's different this time?
What is he doing that is different this time?
Unless he changes his behaviour you are going to get into a cycle of same old same old. It is actions and not words that count.
Own your behaviour and let him own his. We lbs are inclined to try and own what others do. It isn't our problem. And we can't fix other people.
I've been thinking about your situation with this man Kim. I can't sleep. The dog woke me up...I think a fox was outside the bedroom window.
Ya know, you've been through a lot...more than most...and, that's
SAYING A LOT FOR THIS PARTICULAR FORUM!You suggested that I listen to my gut before. Well, my gut isn't such a good one to listen to. My "gut" has been altered, maybe irrevocably, by years of a partner's emotional abuse in the form of dishonesty, witholdings of love, selfishness, immaturity, adultery...the list goes on...and, that's just Smokey and not my childhood.
I equate insecurity with love. If I feel insecure and anxious in terms of how someone feels about me, I assume it's because there's a spark. That's what children/women of abuse do...they confuse abuse with love.
You've been through he!! and he!! can change a person--even your instincts. I wouldn't trust your gut...at least not without some firm backup from your brain.
Be very careful with this guy. You had already started to wean yourself off of him. The withdrawal from a relationship can be very uncomfortable.
You don't need anymore drama. You ESPECIALLY!! No more drama. Is he going to counseling? Did he go back? That was the litmus test, remember?
He needed to show consistent effort and improvement WITH COUNSELING. IF he's not, then he's not worth the risk.
At Starbucks today, this man gave me a looksy. I immediately dismissed him...not my type...I thought to myself. At the time, I was getting texts from Captain Weirdo...anyway, I caught myself. I'm really not looking right now...but, when I do, I thought, "Maybe, I should open myself up to people who I wouldn't normally consider. If I truly want something different in the next relationship...then, maybe
I NEED to LOOK FOR SOMETHING DIFFERENT IN WHO I CHOSE AND WHO I SETTLE FOR AND HOW I FEEL.This is grown up life...high school is over.
morning Lois...
Yes it's my day off and Im awake at 4 a.m.! I normally have to get up at this time anyways but on my days off I usually sleep in.
I was baffled by some issues we had at work regarding some medication missing, and had to call the NOC shift person and request she go over it with the supervisor today. My place of work has been taken over by a new company. The changes have been very uncomfortable causing chaos to ripple into every aspect of everyone's job there. I want out of this place of work but finding something else in this little town that's full time with PTO is hard. It's getting down to a personal choice now. This job is sucking the life out of me, and it's not effecting my personal life. I feel 20 years older than I need to, my house is a mess, and Im not getting the quality time with my girls that I want.
Time for a change.
You have some very interesting points about our situations. In regards to looking for different things in new people than what we were used to is a BIG ONE! I can validate that, because that's what I did with this guy Im involved with.
You know Lois.... I can truthfully say that getting back out there after a long term relationship has ended is TERRIFYING!!!
WE sure as hell don't want to go through another devastation, so I think we can be overly cautious! We say we will not have anything to do with this type of person, what's a deal breaker and what isn't, and actually have this ideal person for our next relationship in our heads.
Then there's REALITY. And I think what it boils down to is really what you are willing to accept about another and what you really aren't. And the thing is.... you just may not know what you can accept and what you can't until you travel along a path with that person a while and really get to know them.
Maybe things that were a deal breaker in our minds before, may not be now! Maybe things that you DIDN'T think were a deal breaker before are now!
We just won't know until we have the courage to go forward!
Lois your gut instinct works, it's already working now, I think you just need to work on listening to it more and sitting with your feelings for a while. Believe me our random thoughts can screw up a gut feeling in a new york minute. But if you keep finding you have a feeling consistently, chances are you're right! So sit with your weirded out feeling a while. And be open to yourself about your sexuality! Sounds like this guy is comfortable in his own skin and he's taking flirtation to a different level.
And yes "sexting" is what the younger whipper snappers do! And I'd just come right out and ask him what he's into! Now, that's just me because Im bold and don't mince words. I don't have time to beat around the bush, time is too precious in this life!
Sorry to hijack as well but I had to ask this question of Lois. I hear women use the term "Settle for" a lot. I have never heard the term used by a man. It makes me feel like women can never find the prince charming of their dreams and they settle for someone less. Like they have given up on their dreams. I would never want to be with a person who settled for me. I don't think it is a good way to start a relationship and would not last long. I wish I new where this whole settled for idea came from.
Ok the coffee has not his the brain cells this morning!
In regards to my situation with boyfriend.
Im really having to rely on my gut feeling with this because My gut never steers me wrong.
I've too wondered if Im associating abuse with love. I've wondered if Im blinded by being in love again for the first time in over 20 years, and have lost my marbles temporarily. I've asked myself if this is some sort of rebound thing for me... but I had been alone for 2 years BY CHOICE until I met this man. I've wondered if I subconsciously have accepted something less than exceptional just to feel loved and have a soft place to fall.
Yet, if Im having the sense to ask these questions about myself, and still feel this bond with this man like I never felt with XH,
that I can't deny, I feel Im right where I need to be with him. Why? I can't explain it. I feel like I've known him all my life, yet never have seen him in this lifetime. As with XH, I knew we would be married and have children the minute I met him, but a little voice said to me" this may not work out, but you must go forward with him anyway".
Then there are all the things about boyfriend that make me think and think and think some more! I love a man that has been on dialysis for 10 years, is physically weak, sick and drained all the time because of it, has one hell of a past, is a functional alcoholic, and has a verbal and mentally abusive temper. LOL... what a catch huh??? He lost his mother which is his best friend almost a year ago. I lost my mom which was my best friend 9 years ago. I understand fully the sadness and grief he's feeling. Im positive he's depressed and has been for years. And thanks to MLC we all know how men can handle depression!
He's been so open and honest with me about things on such an emotional intimate level, it's really changed my perspective on him as a person. Learning about him and who he is, and what things are like for him, puts me in an objective state of mind, and then gives me bottom lines.
And yet am I just hanging on to the "potential" he may have once he gets his transplant (which if he stays on track should be this next year)and feeling healthy again will change him as a person?
I just don't know.
Life Twists,
From my perspective, "settling" is just a term and maybe an excuse!
No one is perfect. Some people are perfect for each other. I think as life goes on and people change, and we find ourselves in an every day life which has started to be less than satisfactory. Then we may have thoughts of "I settled" when we look at the other person as the means to our life feeling unsatisfactory. Yet when you began that relationship, it was perfect enough to commit to it.
Dammit Kimmerz. You gave me a zig when I was expecting a zag.
Now, I have to rethink this--ALL of it.
I need coffee.
I never prayed so hard than I did before I married Smokey. Prayed my brains out. God told me that he was a dangerous mission, but one I should take.
I'm not sure I've forgiven God for giving me the go ahead. But, do I regret it? IDK.
Hey Lois,
See that's what's so damn ironic. God, angels and guides will give us the "go ahead" even if it doesn't work out or is very difficult.
Because the experience is for us to grow! We never grow unless we're put to the test of what life is teaching us all along.
I still have anger up the wazoo towards XH. Thats my ego talking.
But do I have any regrets in marrying him and having two children?
Never.
Im to the point that maybe our only mission together was to bring those girls into this world.
I do believe in reincarnation, soul contracts, and God having a plan for us. But given we all have free will... our missions can get off track or totally awry. Hence coming back to try again.
But I can tell you this much.... I sure as hell don't want to go through this again! LOL.
lol.. diddo
I am totally with you on this. And I am also aware of God' s help. Even through the hardest and craziest obstacles, There always seem to be someone or something around us to help us through.. And it is not always who you would expect
it is very surprising at times.
WEll....
Had yet another argument with boyfriend.
You know what I really think? And this is because I've learned so much from these boards and MLC, that when he starts being a jerk, I can detach and really be objective!
I think my boyfriend really has nothing but self loathing! I swear to God that man is content to hurt himself, yet claiming the victim stance all along.
It's like I see him for everything he is, was and wants to be. But I see him having so many unresolved issues, that he's just not fully available to give me the kind of relationship I want and need. He's only partially available.
Hmmmm..... what to do. I don't hate this guy. I do love him. Perhaps our relationship will be one of taking breaks and reuniting as we both walk our paths we need to walk. And I think that's ok.
Yet at the same time I year for a person that wants to take care of me and has the means to do so! I year for a loving, responsible family man!
Perhaps this may be a relationship in which we truly will end up friends.
You know what guys? I have a question.
We work so damn hard and moving forward, growing and dealing this insane hand that was literally dumped in our laps by our MLCer.
Yet we remember the good times before they went MLC and we still mourn it and yearn for those good times.
I want that again! But I do not want it with EX.
Are we wrong to want to have what we used to have? Can't we find that with another person that wishes to have the same thing too?
What's wrong with wanting to have a family intact, a loving person to be there for you, to have a best friend and lover? Someone to walk this path of life with?
Sometimes I've really felt alot of pressure, by myself that I must show the world and EX that I do not need him, I do not need anyone, and I will do this all on my own! But damn it, doing this all alone is one hard and cold road to travel. I don't like it anymore!
Kim, I understand !! We cannot forget the fact that it took years of investment and effort to get what we had !! I also want that kind of life back but it would take years to get there. IMO, we could find companionship but I wonder if we could ever get as comfortable with another relationship like we were with the one prior to MLC. We are aware of SO MANY red flags and we are on guards to not relive this sh*t.
I am struggling with the same questions as you !!
You can have all of that....just not woth this guy. You're going to have to let go of him in order to find the man you want. He's not it! I know you have feelings for him, I know it's lonely to think of going back out into the dating pool, but once you're in a good solid relationship you'll wonder why you put up with all this drama.
I agree w/kml...this is not the man for you. He's got by far way too many issues and at his age, he may not be able to change the way he views and reacts to the world. Kim, you owe it to yourself to get back out there in the dating pool. There are far more fish in the sea that are more stable and don't have the issues that he has. You deserve a man who is going to adore, love, cherish and treat you right. You and your girls do not need someone in your lives that have emotional issues, i.e., anger, etc.
Kim, it's okay to walk the path alone for a while. The man you are suppose to meet will come along when you least expect it. You deserve far better and even if this man were to promise you the moon in the way of treating you right and checking his emotional yoyo at the door, I wouldn't trust those promises because he's had them a very long time and leopards do not change their spots because those issues would rise to the surface again when you would least expect them too.
What I am taking away from you postings concerning this man is that you are in the rescue mode...get out of it quickly. You can't rescue him from himself, i.e., you can't fix him and he's got a lot of work to do for himself.
You can be a friend...but he's not a good match for a partner for you or someone that you would want permanently in your life or the lives of your girls.
Hi Kim,
That feeling that you want to show your EX and the world that you can do this all on your own, that you don't need him or anyone? That is what many of the MLCers are thinking! They want to show their "independence", that they are fine on their own. I know that's the case with my W. I see it in so many of the WAS's I read about on this board.
It's takes real guts to allow someone into your life and your heart. You are right when you say that's a "hard, cold road to travel" and it's one that people who are too damaged to trust another person go down. To me it's takes a strong, brave person to travel that road with another, imperfect soul. To allow the other person to make mistakes without hating or blaming. To sacrifice part of what you want to give that other person what they desire, without expecting the same in return (but be glad when you get it!). That, to me, is REAL strength. Not the fake "I don't need anyone else, I'm fine on my own" "strength". That is nothing but false bravado.
It may take time and several tries before you find the right person, the one you want to travel that road with. And it's true that because of why we're here on this board, we are much more careful and aware then in the past. But don't let yourself mistake that being "on your own" is somehow the "stronger" or "better" way to live. It is, in reality, the easy way!
Hi guys,
Yes, I have a much clearer head after not talking to this man for 3 days now.
No leopards don't change their spots for sure! And he's not changing anything.
Im glad to say, I really don't miss him at all. To be honest he was becoming quite a drain on me. I feel myself regaining energy by not having his tether on me.
I went to a family reunion Saturday. This is ExH paternal side of the family. They don't speak to him due to what he did. They told me he was an embarrassment and a disappointment to the family. It was that family that gave him a very large inheritance to help us out after the shooting. And it was EX H that literally blew it all and I think sent the majority of it to OW.
At any rate, his paternal side of the family are just the nicest group you ever could meet. They're loving, supportive, no drama, no drinking, no fighting, no BS! Just happy people, happy to ge together! Well Ex H cousin's boyfriend proposed to her in front of the entire family with the approval of the parents. She's been single for 13 years, but it never stopped her from living her life! Her fiance' has been widowed over a year with two girls. The family stopped the girls and said " welcome to the family".
It was right then and there my heart open and broke all over again. It broke because these family reunions were something my Ex lived for. And for a family as loving and forgiving as this one, to basically shun him for what he did, that says alot. It's sad, yet he did it to himself. Then my heart opened again as I realized that this type of family environment is what I want!
And that this dude I've been seeing for over a year, just isn't going to make the cut! It was at that point I thought that I should come home and just break it off with him because this simply isn't going where I want it to go.
Then I got home and boyfriend was behaving like a self absorbed bratt, irritated with me for not paying enough attention to him VIA TEXT MESSAGE ALL DAY, that breaking it off was easy! On top of that I loaned XB 100.00 over a month ago, and I still haven't seen one red cent. Nor will I ever.
Thank you for the support guys! I guess the first relationship after the big D, is really a learning experience. I really had hoped that I wouldn't have to look any further. But I guess in a way its a good thing. I've really changed over the last 3 years.
Yes job, I've been in rescue mode and I was paying attention to that because that can quickly turn into co dependency. However this man has really made it clear that he's using his illness as power and control, via victimization.
Yep Matt, being alone really is so much easier in so many ways. I guess I just am tired. I haven't had a vacation in a year, and have worked so many extra days and hours to help keep the place afloat because people are quitting... well Im just worn out! I think if I could just get some adequate rest and a vacation from work, I might just get my zing back!
Hi Kimmerz. To be honest, I don't think that you were going to keep this guy around for very long anyway. You may be a rescuer, but you've changed in recent years. You are more self-aware. You're more self-aware that you aren't ready to take on a project
Hang in there Kimmerz. When you find a guy that doesn't need rescuing, he won't drain you. You'll feel more energized than drained even if some work is involved - it won't be a monumental effort but a labor of love. There's a big difference.
AJ
Thanks Aj. Now Im wondering why I was attracted to that in the first place.
Many ideas flow through my head about that one.
But I really don't think I need to worry that anymore though.
Right now, Im not wanting to look for a relationship again for a while. Granted I would love to have a happy and healthy one with a great man that loves me and my girls... right now I still feel I need some ME TIME.
Given I have my weekends back, and I just found out my hours at work are going to be drastically reduced, I've got some free time on my hands. Im going to take advantage of that!
Hello all,
Out of curiosity, has anyone had experience dealing with someone that has Borderline Personality Disorder?
Where I work we have a resident that has this disorder. Wow she's alot of work, but I handle her well and I really do like her. But it's alot of boundary setting, validation, listening, and letting her know she's valued. Oh this poor woman spins, and spins, and she truly believes these perceptions that come into her head about things that happen.
I've had the most wonderful weekend to myself, and when that happens I finally can think. As I sat peacefully yesterday this thought cam out of the blue, that I swear that's whats going on with boyfriend!
I've been reading about it since yesterday. Oh My. Fits him to a T. I guess there are certain types of BPD. Low functioning, High Functioning, and Combo. Looks like I got a High Functioning one.
Then as it hit me, ALL THE SUDDEN IT SEEMED THAT EX-X FIT THIS BILL TOO!
You guys I really don't know what to do. Im now going to refer to this man as on/off Boyfriend. After a week of silence, this man communicates with me like I needed him to communicate with me a week ago when we had yet another blow up.
He acknowledges and admits he was wrong for what he said that was so rude and insensitive to me. He validated my feelings and has truthfully apologized.
He admits to being selfish and demanding and that I must be a true saint to have put up with him because he knows how difficult he can be.
He's not angry and still doesn't want to give up on us, and that he truly loves me.
Dear Lord guys.... what do I do? I want to move forward with him.
But I know this pattern will repeat.
And then it's like AJ mentioned a "project".
I don't know what a true healthy and happy relationship really is like. I've never truly had a life role model.
All I know is abnormal, is normal in my life. I think I gravitate to it.
I see him as a person though, not someone that needs to be discarded because he's got mental issues.
I honestly don't know what the right thing to do is, because Im so emotionally involved.
I don't have much to offer about BPD, although I've wondered about it with Smokey--especially the difficulties with moods and anger. IDK. So many things overlap.
I broke it off with Captain Voyeur. Told him I needed more than just sex.
It felt good to set a boundary.
Kim, look at YOU right now. I'm sure this guy has a good heart and all that...blah, blah, blah...not to belittle it...It's just what is it about THIS GUY that is compelling YOU?
IMO, this relationship is bringing up something YOU NEED to look at...I don't know if it's about rescuing, abandonment, ???
A healthy relationship may not have the appeal of an unhealthy one. For us, insecurity is part of the appeal. At least for me. I like the thrill of the chase when someone is damaged, broken, unavailable...I have to work for the love.
I'm making an effort to open myself up to having a relationship with me. And, when I'm ready, I'm willing to open myself up to someone I normally wouldn't consider.
Hi K, I am not a therapist, but my therapist suggested that my xh is Cluster B which includes Borderline Personality Disorder, (the cluster also includes narcissism)
From what I have read on the boards most people in MLC exhibit BPD or narcissistic behaviour traits. In many cases they functioned for a long time, until they didn't (high functioning BPD). But I wonder if we are skilled at dealing with them, and it is a behaviour pattern that we are comfortable with, in a weird way.
Sadly, until people address their issues and get help, this pattern of behaviour is likely to continue. It is your life, but this man is trouble. He sounds manipulative. You said you are emotionally involved, and in your shoes I would go cold turkey on this, see that you may be somewhat addicted to needy damaged people, and cut him out of your life. He is holding back your development into true emotional health imho.
In his damaged state he appears to fill your emotional needs, which sn't really OK, is it?
As a friend that you felt concerned for, maybe OK, but a relationship with a BPD character, honestly they do not know how. It would all be on you, with them pulling the strings.
They have charm intelligence and wit, but they are not OK.
You know guys, I can figure other people out pretty well, but myself, Im still learning about. I guess Im still learning how to truly care for myself. Honestly I guess because I feel I understand more of what's going on, and what Im dealing with, I feel more empowered and willing to go on a little longer.
I realize that staying involved with this man will result in nothing but the cycle that has become the norm. Anywhere to a few weeks to a few months of really good behavior, then he will have an angry abandonment threat and fall off the good behavior wagon and here we go again.
Learning about BPD has really helped me understand this method to his odd madness that I've been witnessing for over a year now.
I think I tend to fool myself that if I understand something, then I can handle it and I have it under control. Now that you mention MLCers are displaying this sort of behavior plus narcissism, I guess you're right, it's almost something I've become to know and get used to thanks to Ex H.
Truth be known I know that it's his issues, not mine when he starts to swing into his irrational mode. I've made the wrong choices in allowing him to push my buttons and I end up losing it myself and fighting with this man over things only his mind can rationalize.
This man fills my emotional needs up until he's irrational as hell. I do believe this is the addiction cycle Im stuck in. He's an emotional support, someone I can have intelligent conversations with, someone that I have many things in common with, someone that shows true genuine interest in me and my life! He listens to me, he talks to me about things that are going on with me!This man makes me feel like I matter! This man has made me feel accepted, valued, adored, appreciated, desired, and absolutely loved for the first time in many years, and ever since the day we met. He does all the good things I want and need in a partner on a consistent basis, and has never wavered!
It's just all the sudden we have this presto change -o mood swing, when his abandonment button gets ever so brushed and here we go.
We do have a long distance relationship, which gives me the room to take care of myself, and my children, and still live my life independently from him. We haven't seen in each other in 2 months. This is due to me refusing to see him after he's had an adult tantrum. So I am standing my ground!
The true bottom line is.... if I choose to remain in this relationship it's just going to continue to keep cycling like it has. When the good times are good, they're fantastic! When he pulls his crap, well I've got choices to make.
Honestly I think what I really need to focus on is if I continue to stay with him, can I keep dealing with his tantrums time and time again.
Honestly when he does this, he acts like my 11 year old that has anger issues too!
Honestly I think Im just so used to all this behavior in some form due to children, ex husbands, and a family of alcoholics, that to me it's just " Oh ok, here's another one with a few tweaks in the system. Let us see how we deal with this one!"
I also work with the elderly, and disabled, mentally and physically. I just have this all around me no matter what.
I just need to not lose myself with in it.
Another thing, I have this tendency to be able to go into another person's "circle" and really look at what's going on in their mind and why they are acting the way they are.
All the while knowing that I can't go in and fix this, but I can choose different ways in dealing with them without sacrificing myself.
Hi, just having a coffee and saw your reply - yes, from what you say it is behaviour that you are comfortable with and thus even somewhat attracted to (without liking it). Many women who finally leave an abusive relationship (not a MLC one) end up with another abuser. Physically and emotionally abusive men can be very good at being very nice - baiting the trap if you like. But abuse is the dynamic.
If it really bothered them and on some level didn't work for them they would seek help to break the cycle. He probably enjoys the drama on some level, even if he denies it. I believe that it might help you to think of him as not an OK person with blips, but a damaged person capable of periods of good behaviour.
He fills your emotional needs because he knows what to say.
Have you thought what it is you get from working with the people you do? It is important work, but it might be worth considering just what draws you to it, and also what draws your co-workers to it.
It isn't a question of changing ourselves, but of greater self understanding so that we act out of volition and not reaction
Kim,
How you described your relationship...Isn't that the Dance of Anger? I know it well...backwards and forwards.
He becomes distant, you work harder to please/engage or, in my case, I learned to step away/give distance...then, he blows with fireworks. Next, he is humble and HE is the one working hard to make nice...the attention is lovely and addictive after all the distance. Good times with someone so volatile are awesome. The sex is heightened, the intensity, the drama...add it all up and you have a powerful connection. Until, the cycle starts over and he distances again.
Not speaking from experience here, but I DON'T think a healthy relationship involves all that volatility. I think it's steady...maybe even a little boring to what you and I are accustomed to.
In your MLC situation, you, literally, had a shootout. A knife thrower boyfriend may seem blah after that. Seriously, the adrenalin rush is addictive.
Recipe for Disaster
1. Does he love me?
2. He distances. He HATES me! I must work harder...(sex is never better when you are trying to convince someone they SHOULD love you)
3. POW! BAM! FIREWORKS when he blows like Vesuvius.
4. Aftermath. He's an A-HOLE! I hate HIM! I deserve better.
5. Awe...he brought flowers, he's sorry...he's just misunderstood.
6. I can help. See! This is the problem! I've found it. I can help him fix it. It's because he wasn't breastfed.
Rinse. Repeat.
The bottom line Kim: Even if it IS BPD, it's NOT YOUR PROBLEM...it's his. And, your girls deserve the attention you are giving him for his adult problems that he isn't fixing himself.
Kim,
How you described your relationship...Isn't that the Dance of Anger? I know it well...backwards and forwards.
He becomes distant, you work harder to please/engage or, in my case, I learned to step away/give distance...then, he blows with fireworks. Next, he is humble and HE is the one working hard to make nice...the attention is lovely and addictive after all the distance. Good times with someone so volatile are awesome. The sex is heightened, the intensity, the drama...add it all up and you have a powerful connection. Until, the cycle starts over and he distances again.
Not speaking from experience here, but I DON'T think a healthy relationship involves all that volatility. I think it's steady...maybe even a little boring to what you and I are accustomed to.
In your MLC situation, you, literally, had a shootout. A knife thrower boyfriend may seem blah after that. Seriously, the adrenalin rush is addictive.
Recipe for Disaster
1. Does he love me?
2. He distances. He HATES me! I must work harder...(sex is never better when you are trying to convince someone they SHOULD love you)
3. POW! BAM! FIREWORKS when he blows like Vesuvius.
4. Aftermath. He's an A-HOLE! I hate HIM! I deserve better.
5. Awe...he brought flowers, he's sorry...he's just misunderstood.
6. I can help. See! This is the problem! I've found it. I can help him fix it. It's because he wasn't breastfed.
Rinse. Repeat.
The bottom line Kim: Even if it IS BPD, it's NOT YOUR PROBLEM...it's his. And, your girls deserve the attention you are giving him for his adult problems that he isn't fixing himself.
Mmmm sounds exactly like my h!
The whole thing about him endlessly. He's the eternal victim.
That whole anger dance must be why I keep thinking he's waiting for me to pursue him and behave badly. So he can blow up again, and make it my fault.
No wonder I was emotionally drained and exhausted.
Kim,
I want to see you happy and in a healthy relationship. This man is toxic in many ways and you need to run far and as fast as you can from him. He knows exactly what buttons to push and things to say to get you to come to him. Your marriage has some rough spots and you had to deal w/MLC...now it's time to step back and allow yourself to heal both mentally and emotionally and look for someone who doesn't have the NPD or BPD. Both of these personalities are toxic and professionals know that they are very difficult to treat and keep on a healthy road.
Kim, you deserve far better than someone w/either of these personality disorders...run, do not stop until you clear the other side of the road. This man is not the one for you and you do not want him in your life or your daughters' lives because he's not going to change w/o a lot of therapy and work.
I have a question,
If there are ways to end the distancer purse dynamic, are they ways to end the dance of anger as in strategies or technics?
To answer some questions....
I work where I do because it was the first job I had outside of the home after being a stay at home mom for 10 years. I had my CNA at one time and decided I wanted to get started in that field again.
Dance of Anger... I have that book. Not sure what this dance of anger is....
But he doesn't distance himself from me, and I don't try and pursue him and never felt like I needed to pursue him. We just gel together quite well.
Sex is always amazing between us. Our drives are a match. I've never been pressured to do anything I didn't want to ( like ex made me do)and if Im too tired some nights, he's ok with that!
His tantrums....and his issues. Im seeing them as that. Adult tantrums. And his issues. It's not my job to try and convince someone that's completely in an irrational state of mind, other than what they're wrapped up in at that time. I can state the facts and walk away until he's chilled out. Which I usually do and that just even makes him more angry!
Though to an extent he is not available to me.
I've realized that I may crave more availability, but I myself am unavailable to a certain extent too.
I think what Im seeing is that I've become very good at detaching when he or anyone else goes into a hole mode.
Then detachment goes into objective mode as if Im monitoring someone else.
I think possibly Im willing to go on a little longer because I feel in control. I can detach if needed, I have my own home and my own job, don't depend on him for anything but companionship!He's not around my children much at all and he's two hours away! I see him when I can see him, and don't allow his mental trips to ruin my life or devastate me like Xh did.
Geez, who's the shallow one now folks? Looks like its me!
K I have said my piece. You are a big girl now. Personally I think you are settling for less than. There is energy going into this relationship that you may have wished you had used elsewhere.
Anyway, you are mature enough to know the choices you are making and to live with them, so good luck.
LOl.... I know how insane this looks you guys, really I do!!
That is why I came here because no where else will I get true honest opinions and insights. I appreciate them, and they are being weighed heavily.
What's been discussed here is nothing that hasn't crossed my mind in regards to him this last year at any rate.
Im going to throw something out here, which may result in more 2 by 4's which is ok. And you guys might feel Im thinking like an MLCer....hmm, maybe that's what's going on with me! LOL
Does anyone believe in soul mates or twin soul unions?
I see this man for every flaw that he has, and I don't have any expectations of him. I don't expect to change him.
This is what he is. This is what Im getting if I choose to walk on with him.
Yet I can't explain this connection or bond I feel with him!
I mean seriously in the solar plexus guys.
So lets switch the subject.... do any of us feel after MLC boot camp that there is such thing as a soul mate, twin soul, or it's just meant to be?
If so, what are the signs that this is meant to be for you as a person?
You sound like me with my h.
I felt it meant to be from the early stages, I thought I could be fine if things went south. I was wrong. He throws those sort of tanties, you talk about, they have gotten worse over time not better.
I often still feel it meant to be even tho his actions show otherwise. I feel the connection, I know he has sometimes, but he refutes that.
So lets switch the subject.... do any of us feel after MLC boot camp that there is such thing as a soul mate, twin soul, or it's just meant to be?
I used to exist in this world because I believed in soulmates. I was raised on the idea of fairytales and soulmates. My mother has lived her life dedicated to finding the fantasy that fits this fantasy. She has two failed marriages and years of abuse from really emotionally unavailable men.
I'm a deeply spiritual person and I really listen to what I see as God's hints, 2x4's, opportunities and people He brings into my life...God brought a very virile, young and attractive forester into my life last January. He was all things Smokey wasn't. He writes, loves Thoreau, is very active and moving all the time (whereas Smokey was a bit of a slug)...ran marathons, worked outside, LOTS of CHEMISTRY, etc...began to think, "Hey, God brought him into my life to challenge me...is it meant to be?"
HOWEVER, today, I believe in the MY SOUL and who the Lord wants ME to BE. Today, I'm choosing to put my faith in myself and the purpose God has for me...I believe in my own soul and a purpose-driven life...
...AIN'T NO BOY GONNA INTERFERE IN THAT ANYMORE. He can come along for the ride, but I'm not slowing down for no one. NO MORE.
Does anyone believe in soul mates or twin soul unions?
I see this man for every flaw that he has, and I don't have any expectations of him. I don't expect to change him.
This is what he is. This is what Im getting if I choose to walk on with him.
Yet I can't explain this connection or bond I feel with him!
I'm with Heather on this one. I used to believe it and now I suspect it is damage responding to damage. It is a fake intimacy. it is probably what the MLCer feels for his/her schmoopie. Apologies for being blunt, but it is fool's gold.
I do believe in love and intimacy, I also think we can be deeply connected to another, at a level we do not understand, but frankly having heard so much about soul mates out of the mouth of MLCers I think the whole concept is deeply suspect.
Nods, yeap, my h ow was his soul mate he met that week, she just fell in his lucky lap!
All good lucky....
not!
Oh Dear My friend LBS's...
Well, MLCer ex husband is fighting with D14 soon to be D15 in two weeks.
To refresh everyone's memory, D15 had her fill when XH dropped the bomb in June that he married OW. D14 hasn't spoken to him till today.
ExH told me yesterday " I would like D14 to start coming over again. It's been 2 months and she still won't answer my texts".
My response " I don't understand your request to see D14. Im not the person you need to be talking to. It's D14".
No response.
So silly me... I think about it for 24 hours. Why did he say that to me? Does he think Im controlling her? Does he think Im encouraging her to not see him? Is this his feeble attempt to ask for help?
So today I text Ex the truth but in what I felt was a kind way. I simply explained to him that D14 is older, understands more things, see's things differently and feels them deeper than D11. I told him that what she needs is time to process this all. I also told him that I have worked slowly to transition boyfriend into our lives for the last year and it's worked out well for the girls. I also said point blank that he and Susan were a big 2 by 4 across the face from the start to the girls, and that was hard! Then the bomb drop about the marriage just plain old pissed D14 off. I said he needs to consistently reassure her he loves her but give her space to soften. I suggested he return her bow and arrow that he REFUSES TO LET HER HAVE BECAUSE IT'S UNDER HIS JURISDICTION AND SUPERVISION as a peace offering because that's even hurt her worse.
No response of course.... except he did text D14.
he says to D14 " I would like you to start coming over again. It's been 2 months and I still don't know why you're mad at me".
Well D14 responded, of course in very vague, and cold words. Things like " I had hoped you would figure it out by now, but you obviously haven't. I know it must be hard given you're going through some mid life crisis or something".
Ex responded back " It must be nice to sit there and pass judgment on me! Where did you get all that information to make that decision? Who is telling you this? You never once asked me for my side of the story! If you ever want to talk to me or hear my side of the story then let me know. You're still my daughter and i love you".
Dear Lbs parents... please advise!
Honestly, I feel like XH was minimizing D14's feelings and spinning it around to make it all about him! He was the victum, because she was judging him and never bothered to hear his side of the story!
It also sounded very defensive on his part as well!
Yet when and where was it her responsibility as a CHILD to ask for HIS SIDE OF THE STORY?
You know there's nothing I can do to fix this. It isn't my responsibility to make his wrongs a right!
D14 said that a long time ago she wanted to hear his side of the story but she was too afraid to bring it up. Now she says she doesn't even care anymore.
She's handling this situation so calmly. I explained to D14 that we have to accept him for who he is, even if we don't like who he is now.I told her it's ok to not like who he is now and how he's behaving. And that regardless of his behavior, I do know he does love her. She said to me " mom it's like he's completely forgot about everything that happened! It's like it never happened!".
So I see this as him just seeing his daughter as an extension of him, but not a person of her own and in her own right. He makes himself hostage to not seeing his own daughter because Im the one influencing her.
Yet D11 still see's him on a regular basis on her own.
If I was such a controlling bitch wouldn't I make sure D11 didn't see him too?
You know, Kimmerz, these guys look for anything to blame except themselves. You owe him no explanations. You did nothing wrong. He is faced with a consequence of his actions and now he cannot handle it. Reality check and he expects you to clean up after him.
If it makes you feel better my Ex does the same. It's my fault if the kids and him don't see eye to eye or if they do not get along with OW. I told J he needs to clean up his side of the street because I wasn't doing it anymore.
Let them work it out. If he blames you again, then let him have it or else walk away. Whatever feels right to you.
Just my two cents.
WH
Hi Kim,
Right now I'm going through all this as my D is coming to the end. My W knows that our D14 is angry at her. She also knows that she is much more likely to want to stay with me over her. She has wanted me to split custody 50/50 and "force" our D to stay with her even if she doesn't want to. At first I let this happen, "make" her spend 50% of her time with her mom. Now I got the paperwork from W's lawyer and she is trying to control EVERY thing my D does. Where she goes to school, where she spends holidays, vacations, etc. She doesn't want D14 to have ANY say! She has also reneged on many other things but this is the part I don't like. I had told her from the start that I wanted it in the decree that D14 gets to make up her own mind if she doesn't want or does want to do something with either one of us. What i got is the opposite of this!
They don't want to have to do the work to have a R with the kids. The kids, like everyone else should just except that they are doing the "right" thing for them! There is no way I will sign this. If I have to I will ask for primary custody and if D14 agrees that she wants this as well I will get it. But the difference is I won't "force" her to go anywhere, with me or her mom. This I will fight for because at 14 our kids can decide who and what they want to do. It sounds to me that your D is thinking for herself. She isn't trying to punish your H, she is merely not spending her time with someone that she doesn't want to. It doesn't matter if it's her father or not. He has done awful things and mistreated her. Until he at least realizes what he has done, I see no reason why she should be forced to stay with her father.
Just my thoughts.
K - as you know trying to reason with a MLCer is well nigh impossible. The thing with emotional abusers is to focus on their actions and your feelings.
Itis hard for kids to be direct, but actually it isn't about 'sides of stories' Yes, they love to play the victim, Love it!
So the real answer is 'the way you announced your marriage was really hurtful to me' His act, her feelings. It is hard to argue that people have no right to their feelings.
Keep it simple, otherwise they don't get it.
Actually my ex regards feelings as something one should just "get over". If I am upset about something he did or said then I should just "get over it" and move on once he explains himself or comes up with an excuse why he did what he did or said what he said. He does this with everyone, not just me.
Of course if HE has his feelings hurt then it's a different story. If I (or anyone else) hurts him, intentionally or not, then it's unforgiveable.
I think it's whatever suits them at the time.
WH
Of course if HE has his feelings hurt then it's a different story. If I (or anyone else) hurts him, intentionally or not, then it's unforgiveable.
I think it's whatever suits them at the time.
That is exactly it - they focus on your actions and their feelings. The only thing we can do is focus on their actions and our feelings.
Hello all,
Matt, I was reading part of your thread last night and it sounded familiar between my ex and I. However I must admit I was the one that tried to line out exactly when and where XH could and would see the kids. However that was all in the name of drawing a firm solid boundary line with him! Ex for a while didn't seem to understand why I didn't leave the welcome mat out let alone a red carpet for him anytime he wanted to come by! He was at the house un announced while I was at work, picking up the girls and taking them where ever he wanted and letting me know AFTER he had done it, making plans with them behind my back at the last minute without any consult to me and respect for my plans with them, I mean it just went on and on!
So when I drew the line, and then OW came into the picture and they didn't want to go, that's when he started raging about MAKING the kids see him, and why should he pay child support when he didn't ever see them (at this point the kids refused to stay with him and OW at all!)and of course I was allowing this all to happen!
It's a control tactic Matt. My only advice is speak your truth, have D14 speak her truth to the judge and your attorney, and hopefully they will come to a very fair agreement and visitation schedule. I have to say here in Oregon they are really pro child well being! My attorney was so wonderful in supporting my girls, yet he was fair in knowing XH still had his right to see the children despite the fact he wasn't very deserving at the time.
Yes Bea, I told D14 that she needs to speak to him in very clear, concise, but direct ways to get the point across. I told her she needs to say " Im mad at you because...... and it makes me feel....".
Right now she just wants to be mean and nasty because she's now releasing 3 years of pent up anger, frustration, and resentment.
My side of the story.... sheesh. Now when he did first leave, the girls asked me several times why he left. I told them the best I knew how without all the gorey details. They never did ask Xh, but all he did was sit them down for 2 minutes and say " your mother and I have been having problems for a long time. It's better this way".
Xh husband left the responsibility to me to tell them and said " well whatever you tell them let me know so I can back you up".
Wishing... I agree. If it keeps up and he starts to get worse, I will let him have it, but more than likely just walk away.
There is absolutely NO REASONING WITH THIS MAN UNLESS IT SUITS HIM. PERIOD. I swear he's gotten worse in the last 3 years, if that was even possible! Just how far do these jokers get into replay? I STILL TO THIS DAY, have waves of disbelief that this is who he has become!
To top it off, it sounds like he's showing his true colors to the new wife. Apparently he made her take out her dentures in front of all her grand kids and show them what happens if you don't take care of your teeth! D11 was there along with OW's family when this happened. D11 said there was a very awkward silence after that and the only one that laughed was XH.
Granted I don't care for OW.... THAT WAS JUST DAMN RUDE AND DISRESPECTFUL TO HER. According to D11 it sounded like she was uncomfortable doing it, but she did it anyway???
I swear this has become a nightmare I can't seem to wake up from!
Wishing I didn't see your newest post.
I swear these MLCers are just cranked out by the dozen at the MLC Factory! They're damn near identical!
How you explained your MLCer is exactly how mine is and was for many years prior to BD.
Now if you stand back and look at this behavior, this is crazy making! That minimizes our feelings and there is absolutely NO VALIDATION for us or anyone else, if they did wrong to cause us to be rightfully upset.
However if they are wronged ( and they are wronged with the touch of a feather) Oh stop the world on it's axis why don't you!
Ex responded back " It must be nice to sit there and pass judgment on me! Where did you get all that information to make that decision? Who is telling you this? You never once asked me for my side of the story! If you ever want to talk to me or hear my side of the story then let me know. You're still my daughter and i love you".
It's like they have a Manual. I mean it's really, really scary how they respond in such similar ways with the very same words. Smokey has written this to D20 in the past. Creepy.
Interesting discussion about the consequential feelings of their behavior/destruction and how the MLC-er remains so focused on assuaging their own guilt.
Sometimes, I try to imagine what it would be like in their shoes. If I was Smokey.
I've made mistakes as a parent, like everyone, and it's hard to admit how those decisions/behaviors on my part impacted my kids. It's hard for ME to acknowledge. Imagine if you did things that were so socially unacceptable and considered "BAD"--how do you come back from that to be a loving parent?
I believe the answer is "with a lot of humility." But, humility is something foreign to them. They are "self-will run riot."
Tragic.
One more thing...
About ten years ago, I had this quiet moment with my Dad and I felt God pushing me to apologize to him for the years of "bad behavior" on my part...In retrospect, I can see now that I really had very little to apologize for, but, at the time, if felt like something I needed to do.
Anyway, his response to me...Now, remember, I'm in my 30's at this point and have suffered a domino effect of terrible, obvious consequences as a result of my Dad's MLC...mom remarries abusive man...
His response...will never forget..."It was the best thing for all of us. Things are so much better now."
Clarification: "Things are so much better now...for ME."
I swear he's gotten worse in the last 3 years, if that was even possible! Just how far do these jokers get into replay? I STILL TO THIS DAY, have waves of disbelief that this is who he has become!
I relate to this totally. I believe my xh is still in replay!
Mega MLC!!
To top it off, it sounds like he's showing his true colors to the new wife. Apparently he made her take out her dentures in front of all her grand kids and show them what happens if you don't take care of your teeth! D11 was there along with OW's family when this happened. D11 said there was a very awkward silence after that and the only one that laughed was XH.
Granted I don't care for OW.... THAT WAS JUST DAMN RUDE AND DISRESPECTFUL TO HER. According to D11 it sounded like she was uncomfortable doing it, but she did it anyway???
THAT, my friend, is just un-be-live-a-bull. He made her take out her teeth? And she DID it? WTF is wrong with these women?
I have seen glimpses of "that look" in OW. It's the look of "I can't believe you said that" or "why are you getting upset". She doesn't realize she is no different than I was in that situation. She is just different. Right now she is a glorified dog watcher and babysitter. J has already started leaving for work earlier and getting home later. I wonder if she realizes that he calls me almost every day on his way to or coming home from work? I wonder if she realizes that soon he will start to travel more and she will be left alone all day. She has no job, no friends here, and her kids are not allowed to move. She will have no money and no life. At least I never got to that point.
We are all so much better off than these pathetic Exs and OPs. It just takes a while to figure it out.
Sorry to hijack...
WH
at bd, in my opinion, second OW, he use to drop her off at a garage and pick her back up after.. knowing that, I used to keep XH chatting , sometimes for quite some times lol.. That was MY request to keep his OWs away from me and my home.. I have seen 3 so far and 2 were causing problem for me. One was an x-cop, psycho who xh couldn' t get raid of.. a bit like him with me. ironic.. she had followed xh here and then threaten him with knowing where his children lived.. He had her admit herself into psychiatric threatment.. the other was a control freak.. he had an 8 o'clock carefue..lol she had him on a choking collar.. HEY! He wanted attention, he sure pick the right women lol
well Im glad to hear Im not the only one that thought that denture popping scene was crazy and a half!
You know as time goes on I become more and more acceptant of who he is, and more and more shocked and disgusted I was married to that man for so long! But then again... I wasn't always married to this particular man he is at the time. Once upon a time he was very different.Quite frankly he's so absorbed in himself Im surprised he even wants to see his children!
I really can't wrap my head around his logic. Only in the mind of an MLCer can this ever make sense!