Just some random thoughts, thinking about all this....
IF she wants back in, these are the questions I want answered:
What has changed that brought about this desire?
Why do you want me to be a part of your life again?
Why do you think I should allow you back as a part of my life?
What steps are you going to take to make yourself better?
What steps are you going to take to make our relationship better?
What are some things you can do to show that I can trust this?
What are some things we can do to keep the R safe?
I don't want the kids and I to have to go through a second leaving, if at all possible. No free pass, she has to want "me" in addition to the kids and lifestyle. I have peace, order, decisiveness on my own which is good for me, and my kids, we are happy, they comment on the consistency. I'm not willing to "give" that away.
If she wants out, or wants back in for the wrong reasons, then I will let her go walk her path, the story line splits and diverges, no anger, no retribution. Just a D and ending done with Class, Honor and Dignity, on my side at least.
Need more coffee...
Typically, I sukc at this.... : O
Let me throw you a brain buzz, to help with your neuron mis-firing...
Oh hell, get out the Abacus and clipboard....
What if...
She tries to come back for reasons other than being head over heels, Hollywood "soulmate" , porn-star sexed starved for you...
Yet is willing to put in the effort, to TRY to rebuild ???
What is your answer for that ??
Is this an "all in", or "all out" scenario for you ???
Mach..."There you go again"... *sigh*
I'm sorry if I sounded like I expected
come back for reasons other than being head over heels, Hollywood "soulmate" , porn-star sexed starved for you...
LOL!!
I don't expect that.
Those questions ^^^ and my rambling thoughts are to try to determine if "TRY" is a valid thing with her...that she truly believes/thinks a new, better R with me is possible, if not guaranteed...And will truly put in the effort. That is one area of broken trust with me. Based on her past behaviors, even pre-mlc.
I'm not usually an all or nothing thinker, but I have learned to pay closer attention to the grey areas.
What I don't want is someone who is only in it until the kids are out of the house and they have advanced their career, then they leave again. I want better than that for myself and my kids.
"I" have to be part of the equation, the desire to come back. Worth the work.
Because I am.
Gah!! Need more coffee...
I believe you are too bro...Hell, I would almost switch teams for you.... : )
I just want you to look at the different scenarios that might play out for you.
Typically, when the MLCer returns, the LBS is light years ahead of them in terms of relationship skills....
What YOU might view as being a lame attempt...
SHE might be sayin..
I'm given 'er all shes got Cap'n !!!
I would suggest that you think about what that might look like for YOU too..
What signs, tell you that she is trying...
What signs, tell you what YOU need to see, and know
What does a reconciled Marriage look like to you ????
I'm going to ruminate on that a bit...
Funny, 2 years ago I wouldn't have questioned a reconcile attempt, my, how things change...
Whoa, we're getting a clipboard AND abacus out? Count me in!
Mach, I really liked what you said -
"Typically, when the MLCer returns, the LBS is light years ahead of them in terms of relationship skills....
What YOU might view as being a lame attempt...
SHE might be sayin..
I'm given 'er all shes got Cap'n !!!
I would suggest that you think about what that might look like for YOU too..
What signs, tell you that she is trying...
What signs, tell you what YOU need to see, and know
What does a reconciled Marriage look like to you ????"
T, you are worth the effort. We know it. Mach would even almost switch teams for you - LOL!
The thing is...what I've been personally seeing... Is that the MLCer's mind is still in such chaos on the way out of the tunnel. They don't know what to trust, everything they "thought" they knew for sure (we're evil, their life is the worst, they can find happiness with OP, etc) is now in question.
Simply put... They don't know what the hell to think.
So while I believe there will come a time when they will need to prove their commitment to us and the marriage if there's any real chance of rebuilding, I think it's something that evolves slowly. They need to be sure they can trust us first - and I can only imagine how difficult that must be.
Drink some more coffee T, mull everything over in your T brain. You've done the work, being the best T you can be, but MLC seems to take FOREVER...
Good thing time is on our side, right?
T,
My second crush...you raise good questions and some I don't think is in the right direction.
IF she wants back in, these are the questions I want answered:
What has changed that brought about this desire?
In my experience, it was a slow and gradual realization that my chit was mine to own and it was all on me all a long. As I've regaled in my previous threads, I came out of the fog and the picture was almost Claritin clear to me. Same thing occurred to Raine's and rH's husbands when they slowly shifted their feet back into their marital home. This process comes in dribbles. Usually doesn't happen in a fell swoop.
The desire also comes back ever so gradually. This isn't The Notebook movie you're viewing starring you and your W. Sorry to put a damper on this scenario in your head, buddy.
This is the MLCer mind at work. This is something you need to be mindful.
Why do you want me to be a part of your life again?
I am sure your W will have her own reasons. What's usually universal in the MLCer is that they buried their love for the LBS and it does come back slowly once the MLCer's fog is cleared out. We miss the true essence of you, view you as our true anchor in life's storms, and the history involved in being connected with you. Cannot deny that at all.
It is not "wanting the LBS to be a part of the MLCers life" line of thinking that you should be entertaining. We WANT to be a part of you, the marriage and the family. We are drawn back to that. That is if we get our chit together and realize that happiness is internal.
Why do you think I should allow you back as a part of my life?
This sounds unforgiving along with a mixture of self-righteous indignation. Am I 'warm' here, T? You make it sound as if W broke into a bank, stole a Trans-Am, or some other perceived law-breaking activity.
Would you tell a puppy who has deep, physical wound to bark/tell you why it should be allowed back into your life? Hell no! You'd scoop up the puppy and give it lots of TLC. Likewise with the MLCer.
What steps are you going to take to make yourself better?
That will have to happen much, much later. As I've urged Raine in her threads that she will have to be her H's wingman and act as a mentor to him. Most of DBers are at the Calculus level and the returning spouses are at the 2nd grade math. Whatcha gonna do? Just let W flounder and turn back on her because she' hasn't progressed beyond the 2nd grade level?
I get that you really want a partner to be supportive, loving, and encouraging in walking the same path as you. You gotta need to adjust your expectation levels in this area.
What steps are you going to take to make our relationship better?
Why don't you show the way as W's wingman? A true forgiving spouse will give the MLCer allowances for there'll be some stumbles in the reconciliation phase. Kinda like re-learning stuff again. In my case, I count myself very, very blessed to have walked the DB path for it allowed me to view my patterns, behaviors and habits with a different perspective.
What are some things you can do to show that I can trust this?
You are freakin' fearful of having a bomb dropped on you once again years down the road or W going through MLC once again. To me, based on what I've read here and elsewhere, I have not seen any former MCLer go through MLC twice. I would guess that the odds of that happening are very, very low.
You'll know it when W is getting back to the M. You've seen rH's and Raine's threads. Jack Three Beans too.
What are some things we can do to keep the R safe?
You need to look within and dig really deep as this is a reflection of your fears. Fear of a second round of MLC. Who knows...you just may get hit with MLC later down the road. It's happened around here too.
BTW, nothing wrong with Rhett and Scarlett!!
T,
When the mlcer begins to make their way back to the spouse and the relationship, it is a very slow process and it doesn't happen over night, i.e., just as they went into the crisis in a very slow way. Wonka says it best, i.e., "dribbles".
She's not going to be able to answer your questions for many months after she returns because she will still be fragile and learning to live in her new skin. As others have pointed out, the lbs is miles ahead of the MLCer in growth, which means she's got a lot of catching up to do and she will do it if she wants back into the relationship and in your heart. This is world patience will come into play more than ever.
T, I kid you not, reconciliation is the hardest part of the journey because both of you have taken different paths during the crisis and now must come together and learn how to live as a couple once again. It's starting over fresh and just like any new couple, it takes time.
So, drink another cup of coffee and mull those thoughts over...but remember, it will take 18-24 months after she's moved back home for things to truly settle down. There will be days when there is confusion, ups and downs, and yes, second thoughts...but the bottom line is this...both of you will still have much work to do that will require patience and little or n no expectations.
BTW, when she comes through her crisis, she will not have another one. The only time a person goes through a second one is if they have been snatched out of the crisis that they are experiencing or it's been interrupted by something going on in their lives...so, do not be afraid that she will have another one.
All the above posts ^^^ are great.
I have not had my coffee yet, either, but I'm going to have some, then read some more.
Meanwhile, I was sort of "all hopeful" for a minute, until I remembered that we're nowhere NEAR doing any of this stuff.
*sigh*
OTOH, I didn't wake up feeling that way right off the bat this morning.
That's a big improvement over weeks past. Baby steps...baby steps..coffee..
T - do you see why I made that comment, now?
AJ
*Sigh* .... You guys are right...
I got WAY ahead of myself, as usual. Still need lots of work on that habit of mine.
Why do you think I should allow you back as a part of my life?
This sounds unforgiving along with a mixture of self-righteous indignation. Am I 'warm' here, T? You make it sound as if W broke into a bank, stole a Trans-Am, or some other perceived law-breaking activity.
Would you tell a puppy who has deep, physical wound to bark/tell you why it should be allowed back into your life? Hell no! You'd scoop up the puppy and give it lots of TLC. Likewise with the MLCer.
You are right Wonka, I worded that poorly, geez what an butthurt a$$hat I sound like...
Lots of ruminating to do, or, maybe not...maybe just wait until whatever happens happens and wing it from there with open mind....maybe the only valid question is "can you see a
possibility of a better, new R with me?"...idk.
Thank you!! This is why I'm here, advice, perspectives, keeping me honest with myself and brain-hurting deep questions...
I worded that poorly, geez what an butthurt a$$hat I sound like...
Lots of ruminating to do, or, maybe not...maybe just wait until whatever happens happens and wing it from there with open mind....maybe the only valid question is "can you see a
possibility of a better, new R with me?"...idk.
Thank you!! This is why I'm here, advice, perspectives, keeping me honest with myself and brain-hurting deep questions...
Before you go smearing Vasoline all over your chaffing...
I DO think that you are correct for letting this go through your brain now, instead of during the heat of the moment...
Prepare your answers, and know what you signs are, BEFORE you are faced with having to recalculate them during the battle...
Kind of like knowing your route before you start on a trip, OR pulling over every ten miles and asking for directions...
From my perspective, we are all saying the same thing, just differently...
Just like no 2 MLCs are the same, your answers have to be yours...
And I know that you will find them....
KWIM ???
But then again all this could be pointless speculation/rumination...she could want out...
I'm not going to know until she does.
Good brain exercise though.
*Sigh*
I got WAY ahead of myself, as usual.
Meh, you'll never get ahead of yourself as much as I do. I had the candles burning in the master BR last night awaiting W's return...
I think there's a place for the "just wing it" attitude you mentioned... especially once you're as far into this as you are, and have put forth as much effort as you have. Sometimes, we tend to overthink this stuff and make it a whole lot harder than it needs to be. You know who you are and what you want/need. Be comfortable in that and just be yourself. It makes it a whole lot easier on us, I think. And since this takes sooooo long... it's important we don't burn ourselves out.
Well folks,
She left me a note:
T2,
I hope someday you will understand.
And I will be forever grateful for all that you gave me.
With her ring left on it.
AND I get to tell the kids, S1 already knows, he saw the note before I got home.
Looks like this chapter is done.
A note...after 24 years together, I'm kinda floored, but not totally surprised.
I'm going to ruminate on this til Monday, then most likely call my L and get things started.
Crap
T,
I'm sorry she couldn't get how incredibly worth it you are. I'm sorry she couldn't face herself and how she is responsible for her own happiness. I'm sorry she hurt you again and for how your son saw the note first.
At that same time, I'm excited for you and for your boys.
Your hard work on yourself and grace in your situation has inspired me and helped me see that this isn't about saving the marriage>>>IT IS ABOUT SAVING YOURSELF>
ONE MORE THING: YOU TRULY ARE A MAN THAT ONLY A FOOL WOULD LEAVE>
T,
I'm very, very sorry that she made the decision that she did. She apparently couldn't face you w/her decision, I am very sorry for that. You've been her rock for a very long time and have shown her what unconditional love is. I'm glad you are going to mull this over for a while.
T, I do not think your wife is done and I do not think that this chapter in your life is completely over. You both will still be in each other's lives because of your sons and I also think that at some point you and your wife will be friends. Sometimes, the mlcer has to cut the ties in order to find their way back to the lbs.
Again, I am very sorry. I had such high hopes that she would heal and return home...but..I've not given up on her yet.
I wish that I could offer you a hug today for you surely need it. Please take care of yourself.
T, I do not think your wife is done and I do not think that this chapter in your life is completely over. You both will still be in each other's lives because of your sons and I also think that at some point you and your wife will be friends. Sometimes, the mlcer has to cut the ties in order to find their way back to the lbs.
Again, I am very sorry. I had such high hopes that she would heal and return home...but..I've not given up on her yet.
I agree totally...
This is a reflection of her, not you....
People can only give outwardly, what they feel internally...
Keep moving forward buddy....
She does not define who you are, and what is in your heart
Drats!
I am thinking that your W is one of those kitty-kitten MLCers, T. This was shown in the note she left for you which was somewhat soft and apologetic. It seems to me that she needs more time and space to get her chit together.
Why would you want to file for a D? Perhaps a legal separation would suffice? What do you think, T?
T
If you plan to still stand, STAND STILL, if D is filed let your W file it.
T,
I agree with Job and Mach. Your story isnt over yet.
I also wonder why file? Not saying dont, just wondering what the rush is...
Two days ago you were ruminating about if it went the other way. If she wanted to come back. And i felt like that was your major focus. IMO, your focus should have been more what you want and need in a relationship and a partner. As well as what you can give. Without knowing that, its difficult to know what you are building or rebuilding.
That is something I would like to see you work on more. Because if someone comes into your life or your W changes her mind, you really need to be in a place that you know you really well.
You will be ok.
I’m so sorry that your wife isn’t yet able to see all the greatness she is about to let slip away, T.
One day, maybe she will understand.
I also have no doubt you will continue to be a hero to so many of us on this board. Thinking of you during this difficult time my friend.
Dang it T2, you were my hero! Still are! You have 24 years together, I have 25. I so hoped that she would get some alone time and really see just what she is losing, what she is doing to not just you but the boys and HERSELF. I would wait to file. The last month she wasn't "really" on her own as she knew that it would end after a certain amount of time. That might have put pressure on her and she needs to be truly without a net to understand what she is going to lose. Who knows as we can't understand what they are thinking.
One thing I know from reading your posts is that YOU will be fine. Better than that, you will be great. At least you are with your boys and you will be there with them to help them through all this (and they help you as well!). Take some time before you do anything. Maybe she will feel able to talk and not just leave a note after a bit of time has past. Hear what she has to say, what she wants or thinks needs to happen. I'm praying for you, T2!
T, I'm so sorry bud. Its a poor decision on her part. Know that you are a good man. Know that you have done the right thing. Know that life is good.
To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all.
-Oscar Wilde
I agree with the others, T. She isn't done. She won't be for a long time most likely. But she isn't done with her own journey. Not much more to it than that, ya know?
The note indicates she knows that she is deciding (that's important) to walk away from a great guy. It is totally a reflection on her. You need to know that, T.
You also need to figure out if you're going to stand or not, my friend. In the scheme of things, this is just one data point.
I asked the question for the reason Mach mentioned - didn't want you to go through it in the heat of things. And to be sure you had a chance to clarify your feelings and thoughts before you were in a position to react. It was a good exercise and it's still valid if you choose to make it so.
I'm not saying you haven't been through He** and back. You have. But take the time to reflect on what you want and what you have learned.
Peace,
AJ
Thanks again folks...
Been taking care of myself, amazing how fast I can cycle through the stages of grief anymore...lol. I was angry at the way she did this, but finally reminded myself and accepted that this was the best she could manage. Every other BD was done face-to-face, and she seemed really confident in her choices. This time not so much maybe, idk.
Been thinking a lot...here's what I am thinking right now, which is subject to change.
She has told me many times that she doesn't want to be married to me, or anyone for that matter. Time I really listened and let her go. I do love her, but maybe like with kids, comes a time when you have to let them go and discover their own path on their own.
Looking back through the M, and her family history, there is a lot of emotional/mental instability, which i know and accept would be part of any reconciliation. But have to or want to have in my life anymore until she resolves it.
The kids need/want this resolved, this limbo has been really hard on them and they are voicing it now. Maybe it's time for creating whatever the new normal is going to be.
As far as divorcing or SA...a SA in my state is just like a divorce, except you are still legally married. I don't see the point. And it would signal, perhaps, that I am still standing/waiting. She doesn't want me too.
And, I am tired. I feel confident that I did everything I could. Even MIL and 2 of her brothers said so when we talked.
It was so odd how she seemed to really be more herself, cleaning when she was here with the boys, buying a couple little things for the house, etc, they commented on it. After S1 and I got home from our backpack trip it "felt" really kinda normal...I guess that's why I was feeling that she wasn't done. Then last week she was barely here on her days, and total silence texting, phone, etc.
Anyway, those are my thoughts as of now, nothing finalized yet. processing.
I like how you think, T. You got this!
Letting her go.
She is right. She said she doesn't know herself, when it gets tough, she runs or avoids.
Until she finds herself there is no possibility of a healthy R with me, or anyone.
I want a healthy R. For myself, and my sons.
After much thinking, processing the past and the present, much grieving...
I feel good in that I did give it my best, this standing bit, even she says it is not me, never was (mostly, yes I did contribute to the martial issues). I fixed myself, became a kind, integrated man. A great father. I feel good with myself and this journey, learned a lot, grew my CHD.
I am done standing.
I wish her well, I will of course be in her life due to the kids, there will always be love for her, she did give me many years of love and support. I am grateful for that...and those years and how good they were made it so hard to let go.
But I get it now.
I'm at peace.
Duece...
Whatever the future holds for you, you will be in it : )
Seriously though. As long as you know in your head AND heart, that you gave it your all...you will be fine....
And who knows what the future holds for you two. You certainly cannot predict the future, or assume what she is and isn't capable of...
So for now, follow your path brother....
Head and heart agree.
And I HAVE learned here that the future is unknowable, that you can only know the present...
Wow, T.
I salute for all of your valiant efforts. Your W is really missing out on a great guy. She'll find out eventually down the road.
I am so sorry to hear this.
I have always been a fan of yours.
(((((((( hugs T2 ))))))))
I am so sorry to hear this.
I have always been a fan of yours.
(((((((( hugs T2 ))))))))
Me 2
T, you know how I feel about you.
I know you pretty well, I think. You feel like you have to make this all encompassing decision about whether you are done or not, standing or not, etc.
While it may feel helpful to try to figure it all out, the truth is, all you have to do right now is allow yourself to feel it.
No need to make a stand. No need to label it. Just feel the feelings - all of them. They are going to come around and flip back and up and over again. That's the way it should be.
At the end of the day, she is saying what she has been for the most part. You have cycled through all of this before. You will again. More quickly this time.
You are right about this. You do need to hear her. Not for her, for you. Not to help you make a decision one way or the other, but, because it is what's best.
She needs to do this. You need to let her. For her. For you.
No one knows what the future holds. That's true. What I hope it holds for you is that you can embrace who you are. Accept that you did the very best you could and so did she.
Be good with the fact that it all mattered. To you...to your kids...and to her.
You may not see all of that immediately, but, you will one day.
T, I hurt for you, my friend. But I am also glad that this may allow you to move to the next part. Whatever that may be.
You have walked this with courage and strength and honor, without a doubt. That matters, too.
Take some time to sit with all that you feel. Help your kids get grounded. Take care of you, though, T. I mean really take care of you. Its ok to do that, ya know?
You are pretty freakin amazing. I am, as always, rooting you on, praying for you and wishing you all good things.
Thank you UR...
And yes, been cycling through emotions..
And I actually AM being gentle with myself.
Cat04, I have been thinking a lot about what I want in an R for quite a while. Here are some things I've come up with, just added them to a list as I thought of them, not all are required, naturally, just things I'm looking for...
-someone who will try to keep the relationship safe: not cheat, not be looking around the next corner for something better, in real life, online, etc.
-someone who will forgive and accept my mistakes and flaws, cherish my strengths and talents, and not resent either of them.
-someone who will be able to disagree, stand up, speak their mind, yet compromise, or agree to disagree without thinking the relationship is over, not worth keeping, not meant to be, end of the world, etc.
-someone who believes that most things can be worked out if both parties open their mind, and put effort and dedication into finding a solution agreeable to both parties.
-someone who can forgive and let go of the past and move forward, together.
-someone who has their own activities, friends and interests, allows me mine, and we share some common activities, friends and interests.
-someone who will tell the truth, even if it is uncomfortable or may hurt. No lies or lies of omission.
-someone who can and will communicate their wants and needs respectfully and long before it is a huge issue.
-someone who knows reality exists and must be dealt with, while still striving towards ideals, goals and spirituality.
-someone who tries to be better than they were the day before.
-someone who wants and gives intimacy, holding hands, hugs, reading books together, napping together, sharing their inner selves, bedroom activities, risks being vulnerable.
-someone who is happy to see and be with me, and I with them, making sure to make the relationship a priority in the midst of many priorities.
-someone who is grateful for what they have, doesn't envy others, while still trying to make life better.
-someone who accepts that they will grow old, yet live and be young in heart and mind.
-someone who uses both their heart and their head.
-someone who can find laughter, joy, even in tough times, but especially good or neutral times.
-someone who likes home cooked food, likes to cook, likes that I cook, likes to grow home grown food, emphesizes natural health.
-someone who likes and wants to be in the outdoors, in nature.
-someone who values and engages in health and fitness.
-someone who has intellectual and spiritual curiosity, likes to read many genres.
-someone who has creative skills they engage in, doesn't matter what it is.
-someone who will share there knowledge and skills with me, and let me share mine.
-someone who leads where they are stronger, and lets me lead where I am stronger, without jealousy or resentment.
-someone who can be silly and not care what others think.
-someone who can be, and also wants, and allows me to be, a help-mate.
-someone who sees a relationship, and a family, as a team endeavor.
Oh, one more thing:
"Soulmate" and "True Love" are not in their current or future vocabulary...
waving armsMe, me, me!!!!
You had me a sci-fi...
Hey T2, If you find someone like that please let me know if she has a sister!!
Seriously, great idea coming up with that list. We've been through the ringer and need to understand what we really want in our future R's!
I think I found somebody like that T. She sits in my backyard and squirts water out of her mouth. I should add she really likes birds, doesn't talk much, and is pretty much there whenever I need her. Likes all kinds of weather and is a great listener.
Want I should get another one for ya?
Just teasing, my man. I'm glad you're still processing. As UR pointed out (wise one, that UR) you will feel this all over again only faster. Don't sweat it. It's surprising at first, and then liberating if that same happens to you.
Via Con Dios, Amigo.
AJ
I had my first band practice last night since BD#4. # hours of no thinking about sitch things... Just on creating and practicing music.
Epiphany hit me...
The importance of GAL.
And GAL with things you didn't do with your spouse.
I had started looking for a band after BD#3 last year when I started dropping the rope in earnest. After xmas I found the band project, and we actually like each other and have become good friends. They were there for me. W and I never got around to doing music together, so this was something that was always a separate activity not connected to W.
Contrast that to my garden this year, aside from having to be single Dad doing everything, this was something that W and I did together, so every time I went out to try to get going on it, I would be reminded. So this year it isnt very good. And that's okay, a year of rest on most of the beds will good for them.
But the take away is....find GAL activities that are NOT connected to your spouse and M/R.
My music, backpacking, camping, reading sci-fi/fantasy, etc, the things we did NOT share, are a great joy, comfort and satisfying.
The things I like to do that we did share are tough yet.
This also points to another reason why in a R, you DO need your own, separate activities from your partner.
Lol AJ, I did say they were ideas and not all were required!
T, you are correct in that we need to be ourselves in a relationship and together. If something happens (death of a marriage, death of a spouse, etc) then we do have those things that are still us. It also helps during the relationship.
While you process those things, know that you're not alone with that. The things you used to do together will hurt for a while. Some you will drop completely and you will pick up new ones. That is just how it works.
One of my thought processes was that if I liked doing something, I was going to do it regardless. She made her choice to leave and worked hard to make me out to be the bad guy. Common, but the net of it is that those were her choices. My choices are mine, and if I want to do something, I won't let somebody else's choices get in the way with that.
I wish my ex and her H a long life together. I mean that in a good way
But I won't stop mine if there is something I want to do. At first it was painful to do some of the things. It has been hard being in the house we lived in for so many years. The memories etc. It's been hard being around the neighbors we used to be so close to. To have them tell me things (unprompted; it's their way of dealing I think) and the way I felt they looked at me.
Now, years later I am happy to say that staying in the house has helped me much more than it hurt. It took time, T. It took effort. But little by little I clawed and scratched to create a life and new memories.
Do I sometimes miss what I had. Not any longer, T. I look back with some fond memories. Some not so fond. But they are memories that are blended with other memories of a new life I built.
You are right that the things you do are some pleasant and some not so much. I know many of us ran from activities we did previous to the great explosions. I found that going back to those to evaluate if I wanted to do them or not was therapeutic. Several I've dropped, but some I've resumed and I'm glad I did.
And I'll tell you something. A lot of conventional wisdom says to run at the first sign of trouble in a relationship. "It's not good for me, so I'll end it and get a new one." That's an attitude I just don't buy. That's a consumerism attitude and one designed to keep you from risking and being hurt. You cannot grow without risk and hurt. Kind of like plants that need grafting and pruning, right? Or weeding.
I applaud your commitment and I know that it will eventually be the thing that really sets you apart and helps you heal completely. Had you walked away a long time ago, you wouldn't have that benefit, T. Also because of not walking away, you're having to deal with the loss now instead of completing that years ago. Had you walked years ago, you would have always wondered and had difficulty finalizing the healing and growth from the experience. You'll be glad you did what you did.
Walk softly, my friend. Enjoy the activities, and keep working on you. It'll go faster than you think as you internalize and accept the feelings. I feel for you, but I know you will do very well in time. Take the time to feel the feelings so you can finalize them. Stop and smell the roses from time to time, so to speak
AJ
I applaud your commitment and I know that it will eventually be the thing that really sets you apart and helps you heal completely. Had you walked away a long time ago, you wouldn't have that benefit, T. Also because of not walking away, you're having to deal with the loss now instead of completing that years ago. Had you walked years ago, you would have always wondered and had difficulty finalizing the healing and growth from the experience. You'll be glad you did what you did.
You are right AJ, I am glad. I can move on without any lingering "what if's", and that is important to me. And my kids.
This "journal entry" will be a bit rambling...
W and I had an very good couple of discussions yesterday. She validated the heck out of me, what I have done the past 5-6 years, and through all of our marriage. That this wasn't me, she sees that now, her IC helped her quit blaming me for everything. She acknowledged that she knows very few men would do what I did. I amaze her.
Some of the highlights from her brain:
-When we met, she hadn't had the experience of being alone and on her own, making mistakes and figuring out how to deal with life, etc (true). She was barely out of her parents when we moved in together, and me being who I am, a good man, always had her back, always bailed her out, etc.
-She always relied on me and how smart I am to figure out stuff, she needs to learn to do this for herself, but even if she stayed and I didn't help, she would look to me to help, and be mad at me for not helping, though she didn't want me to.
-She needs to grow the heck up and become a confident, capable, independent woman, and when difficulties came, she knows she would look to me to help her if we tried to stay together now. She is tired of having the knee-jerk instinct to run, she needs to figure this out without anymore damage to the family. Her words.
-She needs to figure herself out and what she wants her life to look like before she can even be in a R with me, or anyone (has she been reading here? lol). Her empathy is back and she doesn't want to mess up any more lives and continue to hurt me and the boys.
-She knows she is giving up a good man who loved her deeply and would do anything for her. She does love me very much. But she knows inside herself that she has to do this, this way. Though she is very scared.
-She apologized deeply and earnestly for the h3ll she has put me and the kids through the past 3-5 years, her actions and words (her words).
I told her, after thinking about this a lot the past couple weeks, searching my soul, that I agree with her, and I do.
Those were the interesting highlights, she validated me in a lot of things both from standing and the whole R. We talked about my mid-life transition, and how her's commencing snapped me out of mine. She knows she blamed everything on me these past 3 years, and she knows that she was wrong now, that she had a part in the M issues, especially not speaking up until it was a major issue, for example.
There was a lot more, I found it bemusing how much she still hasn't remembered of her words and behaviors...
She admitted she is starting to remember some "things" she said and did, and I praised her and validated.
I also discussed how even IF she wanted to reconcile, with the kids starting a new school, and the "re-training" I need to do there, and just jumping back into the stresses of family life, that it wouldn't be good for me, or the kids, or her, or the M, with where she is at right now, to move back in. Everyone needs some stability and calm to make this transition. And that I like the peace in the house right now, the tension went out the door with her when she moved out, and she said she knows....the boys have told her, and she realizes it's truth.
I am feeling (and thinking) okay about letting her go and find herself. Very okay. It is the only rational thing to do.
And I'm at peace.
Though I still am cycling through these feelings, more and more I stay in acceptance and peace mode.
The anger is almost completely gone, and I do not resent her, or that my my stand "failed". No bitterness.
Job, you are right, there will be a time when we can become friends, with enough time and space between us and this particular journey.
While I'm missing the past some, I am looking forward to my future and whatever it may present to me, more.
Hi T2,
You are very lucky to have gotten the validation that you have from your W. What I wouldn't give to have my W say half of what yours has said to you. What are your (and W's) plans moving forward? Has she or you thought about filing for D?
It does sound like she may be progressing to another stage in her MLC journey. I really do hope for her, your and your boys sake she can come through and find peace. I wish you the best T2. You sound like you are handling this with grace and that isn't an easy thing to do!
We will be divorcing. Some can come through this without leaving the M and family, some cannot. She cannot.
And I need a D to allow me to fully move on as well. I will not cheat, and I would feel like I was cheating if we just stayed separated. Whenever that next person comes along, they deserve to have me fully present.
I'm getting some closure... and my "stand" got her to some kind of stability before she walks her journey.
And the grace is because of the people here, making me dig deep, looking at the reflections they offered me, of me. And doing something about those reflections.
If I would have walked or kicked her out 3 years ago, it would have been horrible to have her out of the street in the state she was in.
Whenever that next person comes along...
Comes along? Heck, there's a line waiting all the way around the block for you buddy!
I'm getting some closure... and my "stand" got her to some kind of stability before she walks her journey.
And the grace is because of the people here, making me dig deep, looking at the reflections they offered me, of me. And doing something about those reflections.
If I would have walked or kicked her out 3 years ago, it would have been horrible to have her out of the street in the state she was in.
Wow, talk about showing love. This to me is what true love is all about, and you sir wrote the book! I'm so happy that your W is now able to see all you gave to her. You continue to be my hero, and inspire me to give my W and marriage my best.
Thank you...
T,
You have done a great job throughout the three years and you are doing what is best for your wife, you and the children. You've thought long and hard about this and I think your decision is a solid one that you can look back on and say "I gave it my all".
Take care of yourself.
Thank you job
T I am as always, in awe of you and now your W.
I agree with FY - there's a line around the block! So I am grateful and happy you recognize your values and are sticking to them. I think you will continue to be glad you did. You sir, are a classy HUMAN being
Be well!
Peace,
AJ
Thank you job and AJ, everyone
So far, the D negotiations are going okay, especially when the financial reality of the past 5 years or so was brought into her awareness. My L said I am being very "noble", especially since I didn't want this, and the infidelity, taking the bulk of the debt in trade for any house equity.
She has been getting advice from co-workers and friends who are from out-of-state, or who have no assets, etc. So I encouraged her to do some research and get some facts. She appreciates that I am taking her earning power now into account, that I HAVE pulled out a calculator and crunched the numbers, she hasn't. I encouraged her to do so for herself, to see things without my income in reality, and not just take what I say.
We are focusing on the kids needs first, at the end of the day, so far...I know that can change as it gets closer, but here is to hoping her clarity remains present.
We also did some post-mortem on the M, a little. I wanted to share a couple things from that that may be very helpful to people, especially the newbies. The things we are advised here are right on target... listen to job, Mach, AJ, UR, etc. They are right!
These things are right from her...
First:
The cheating was an escape from the depression, the internal loneliness, low self-esteem, and her fear of loneliness. She never learned to be alone, and gets addicted to things (eating, PA's, online affairs, the internet, etc), even when she was 18 and her roommate wasn't home much, she really got into the bulimia.
Second:
She sees now, that the past 5-6 years aren't about me, never was. Though she thought it was, she realizes it is and was about HER, all along.So, take heart, and the advice, offered here folks...it's valid, and was just validated by a mlc'er herself.She still doesn't remember a lot of her behaviors, words, spew. She gets mortified when I bring up some things as they relate to the D, or when she tries to make sense of what happened. I don't push them on her. When she said "I am angry that I can't remember so much", I replied, "Chances are, you will in time".
So the journey continues, with CHD, compassion. I am making sure I sleep well at night and my kids see a great role-model.
Hi T2,
You sound like you're doing great. I hope your W can find some peace going forward. I was wondering, now that she is realizing that the last 5-6 years weren't all about you and you weren't the cause of her unhappiness, why does your W still not want to at least give your M a chance? Maybe some IC and MC. Seems like with kids involved, that might be a way to go. Does she want to learn to be "on her own" since she never did? Is she just too unable to face the hurt and damage she caused?
Now that my W has left and filed and I'm alone when my D is at her mothers, I do have to be careful about getting enough sleep and eat right. Funny how I lose track of time or just don't want to bother to make a decent meal "just for me"! Hang in there and I think by the way you are handling the whole D situation, you are definitely being a great role model for your boys!
Yup Matt,
Does she want to learn to be "on her own" since she never did? Is she just too unable to face the hurt and damage she caused?
For sure the first, and I'd put money on the second, and I'm not a gambler...lol. But she hasn't disclosed that yet, so I don't know.
T,
She has to grow up and learn to be out on her own, i.e., not depend on others to smooth the way for her. She didn't do this when she was a teenager/early 20's, so she's gone back to that time and now needs to understand what it is all about and discover what she thinks she missed.
In your case, I think, she needed to go the entire path to a divorce in order to figure things out. No amount of counseling will take care of this right now...but down the road, she may very well decide to see a counselor to figure the rest of the whys, ifs, ands or buts out.
Right now, she's still fragile to see/face what she's done. She needs to get stronger and healthier in order to face the damage...but the question will be...is she a fighter and wants to get better or is she the type of person who will walk away at the end of the day and leave the destruction in the past and not deal w/it? That's the million dollar question and one that none of us can predict right now. This may be years down the road or she could hit bottom after the divorce and realize what she's done...time will tell on that.
Continue to be the person you are and I know you are there for your sons. They have a great role model and mentor.
Hang in there!
Thank you job, and for all of your wisdom, advice, support to me and others...you are amazing.
At least I hit one of my goals, standing long enough so she is more stable as she goes on her journey.
One thing she said is she wants to learn how to not instinctively run or avoid. I hope she does for her own sake, learns those coping skills she never really developed.
Had a long, wonderful talk with stbx-MIL. Brought her up to speed on the D discussions, what I am proposing and WHY. She is awesome, my stbx-MIL, just awesome.
She said they ALL know I have been wonderful to W, and what I am proposing she agrees with, and is very thankful I am still thinking of and through everything and caring towards W's well being. That I am always going to be part of the family, they are there for the kids and me as well. She thanked me for standing as long as I did, and that they all know it is not me, and that there is nothing I can do.
She also agrees that I should have full custody right now, W is not in a place to deal with 50/50, school, etc.
Talk about validation....
I assured her that unlimited access (with pre-notification) to the boys will be written into the decree, that I am not going to try to keep the boys from their mother, Mom's are too important to young (and old) men...
And she said W has a mess in her head still. MIL wishes W would go back on meds and get REAL therapy...
I am really getting excited about my new life that is unfolding...
T2,
It's wonderful that your stbx in laws are so supportive. That is a great thing! It must be difficult to watch their daughter, however, it sounds like they realize there isn't much they can do.
Optimism and excitement about the future are good things. Sounds like things are going well:)
Hi T2,
I also have a lot of support from my MIL. She can't understand why W is acting the way she is. She is still trying to be supportive of her D which is only natural but thinks that she is making a huge mistake. My D14 stayed with her most of last week (my W's week with her) and D told me MIL cries after talking to W on the phone almost every night. It would be interesting to know what my W is saying that makes MIL cry but that's not my sandbox. I also have gotten much support from her mom's side of the family. I'm hoping that this will last as who knows what W may say if she starts to feel like she isn't getting the support she wants from them.
I have chosen to remain close with MIL and that side of W's family and they want me to as well. I can only hope that my W starts to listen to them if she starts to come out of her MLC someday. Right now she just dismisses anyone who doesn't just agree that she is doing what is "right" for her.
T2,
I'm glad you had a chat w/your stbMIL and she's understanding and is very much aware that her daughter is still trying to sort things out. She's right...she needs therapy, but only she can decide to get the much needed help she requires.
On another note, you sound great and your life is unfolding in many ways that will be wonderful, fun and exciting. Embrace all that comes your way, i.e., be it happy or sad. Life is an adventure and one that we must not stop and become stuck in. Experience it all and above all else, live your life to the fullest.
This is very good to hear, T, and not all that surprising. You have not only given W and your M way more love and time than most would have, but have done it with complete Class, Honor, and Dignity. Thank you so much for continuing to show us all how it's done!
I have chosen to remain close with MIL and that side of W's family and they want me to as well. I can only hope that my W starts to listen to them if she starts to come out of her MLC someday. Right now she just dismisses anyone who doesn't just agree that she is doing what is "right" for her.
Be careful with this, Matt. Nothing wrong with remaining close, especially if you were prior to W's crisis. But I have seen first hand (with both of my sisters) how STBXH befriending the in laws is seen as a tactic, and highly resented by the walk away. You really don't want them putting pressure on W to "do the right thing". She has to get there on her own for it to work.
Hi FY,
I understand this and have been very careful to limit what I say about my W and my's sitch. I only say that she has things she needs to work on and that I have tried my best to give her space and time. I hope that once she starts to come out of her MLC, even if I'm no longer in the picture, she will listen to them. They are good people who do care about her but just don't understand what she is going through. It's like my parents wanting to send my W a letter not long after B-day. I told them all that would do is cause her to resent me and them. Had that feeling even before I knew it was MLC.
Greetings!
Haven't posted in a long time, I'm just so busy with the beginning of school, and the overwhelming task of de-cluttering. Stbxw was a borderline hoarder I swear...I'm on my 4th long bed load of stuff to donate, 3rd for stuff to go to the dump. But it is lightening everything in life.
Life is good. The boys are responding very well to structure, schedules, consistency...with plenty of wiggle room and freedom on non-school days/nights. Hot breakfast every school morning, family dinners on the evenings they dont spend with their Mom, with Fridays and Saturdays flexible and fun food. And they FINALLY like school!! Well, as much as teens do...
Getting the clutter cleared out and redoing rooms my way is so liberating. I am re-learning who I was and am and who I am becoming. The boys have commented on how the house is so peaceful, calm...like a sactuary. Which I think it should be, home should be a sanctuary. S1 says the "new" master suite is so Zen
Going through all that stuff though does stir up things within me sometimes, some anger, some sadness, but those are becoming shorter and less intense. But it is a good reminder of how much I carried through the M, I am really coming to terms with that reality, but not trashing the M, just a more balanced view... Realizing how "hard" she made life for herself, and sometimes the family. I feel really badly for her, sad.
But I don't have to carry that anymore, and... I don't miss her anymore, which made me sad at first. I miss who she was, before her dad was diagnosed with cancer 8 years ago, but I don't miss who she has become since then. But it is reality. My life, and the day to day lives of the boys is better without her in the house. I feel badly for her, per her own words she is still so lost, I can't imagine being her and putting her kids, her family, her Mom, her H who loved her so much, through this.
I have adjusted to being a full-time solo Dad, and I am starting to really thrive. My R's with my sons has become awesome.
My band continues to improve and being fulfilling. I am building a new life, full of positive, intelligent, driven people who have their sh!t together. And my life is reflecting this. It's really becoming something awesome, imo. And, I have an evolving, amazing, long distance GF...we are evolving together, but with space to develop ourselves independently. We both have healing, growing, to do as separate people after our ordeal and M, we have kids to help heal and who need our full presence. The distance helps that for now...But it IS wonderful to have someone who cares, "shows up", that you matter to... it's been a while since either of us have had that in our lives...
Three years ago I couldn't imagine feeling this good, calm, peaceful... happy, just deep down contented happiness.
It really is a gift, this MLC thingy, IF you do the work, both the standing work, but more importantly, the work on yourself, imo.
Life is good. Not fair, but good.
My friend, it's been a journey, hasnt it? Man, I know it was really tough at times.
But look at you...
An honor to have been able to watch you walk this and become your friend.
There are no limits to what your life can be...how freakin cool is that?
So glad you have found so many things...but mostly, that you found peace.
Dang, T2, you are awesome!
Reading your posts always gives me hope that I will come through this and be better for it! It was my W's dad getting cancer that was the final thing to push my W into her crisis as well. He is still around but not doing well and is the only person in W's life who tells her that she is doing the "right" thing. Such a sad thing to see how they are both so damaged, so scared.
Keep giving us updates and letting us know how things are going. You have earned the happiness you have now, enjoy it to it's fullest!
One book that really helped me get over the "hump" of grieving was "Second Firsts"...highly recommended Matt.
You give so much hope, TS2!!!
I am happy for you and that you are able to provide such tranquility for your boys... and to yourself!
I'm hoping it is a glimpse into the future!
You've come a long way and have been an inspiration to many people both here and in the real world. Isn't it amazing how much "stuff" we collect over the years and then one day..."poof" it's no longer needed?
T, I'm happy to read that you and your boys are doing so well and yes, enjoying each other's company. Home is where the heart is, but also a safe place to land.
Continue moving forward and don't forget to stop along the way and smell the roses and enjoy some "me" time too.
Thank you UR and job, you, with others, were instrumental in my growth, and getting me through this. You are amazing people. You got me through the standing work, where I learned what I am made of, and also the work of myself, where I learned who I was, and where I wanted to go.
Matt and Mighty, some realizations came to me since June, granted I've had 3 years (BD #1 anniversary this month) to come to terms with the possible loss of my M, these still came fast and hard, because though I don't easily quit, once I do get to the point of futility, I drop the rope fast and hard. Here is what came to me:
She's gone.
I need to heal, I have kids full time, work 40-60 hours a week, I am taxi and school bus service, and I have a disaster of a house to remedy, etc... Like the Van Halen line from the song "Ain't Talking About Love" goes... "I got no time to mess around..."
I had to see my life without her, hard as that was.
My healing has nothing to do with her anymore. Nothing she can do or say is going to change how I feel. It's about me.
It's up to ME. So I re-framed this into "as if" she died.
Absolutely no chance of reconciliation, her changing her mind, etc.
How does that change how I feel?
How does that change MY ACTIONS in recovering, healing myself and my kids, getting to the needful?
Life is for the living, and my kids and I are far too blessed to be waiting around for a ghost to maybe re-appear and be re-incorporate, meanwhile life passes by.
That mindset change gave me strength and determination to do the right things for my sons and myself. To tackle the hoarders hoard, organize, super-clean, create the NEW normal in a positive, healthy way. My kids deserved it, and it was completely up to ME to make it happen.
And now that we are operating in the new normal? The results I see in the kids amazes me. The results I see in me I like, a lot. And now when I ponder her coming back, as she is, and bringing her chaos, indecision, negativity, tension and all the rest?
*shudder*
That is why I do not miss her anymore. Makes me sad sometimes, but it is what it is.
I mentioned that book "Second Firsts" because it did help me over the hump to move beyond surviving into thriving...very concise, good steps and plans, emphasizes GAL, etc, it meshes well with SBT, imo. I think it works better for men in grief recovery than Susan Anderson's excellent book.
Acceptance is key, only you can change you thoughts. I have been re-reading Marcus Aurelius' "Meditations" as well...very helpful...
"Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself, in your way of thinking" particularly struck me, an "a-ha!!" moment.
An excellent posting and I couldn't have said it any better. I'm very proud of you and I'm glad you and your family are doing well.
Thank you job
I had to meet in person with stbxw to give her things like her SS card, birth certificate, and such that she neglected to take.
She doesn't look healthy, physically or mentally. Gaunt, tired.... I looked into her eyes, trying to see who/what/where she was...Her eyes were pretty dull and pained....lost looking.
I know that look from my internship days in the psych wards many years ago... I hope she gets help, does her work, and finds peace and happiness. It's up to God and her now.
My middle son, who is sixteen, has started coming up to say good night to me now, this is new.
Also, he has gone from wanting to drop out of school and just get a job when stbxw was still living here, to now he is really applying himself in school, and is figuring out to get a college education.
It's so true what the vets say, be the rock, if your kids see you are okay, they will be okay.
I haven't felt this happy, content, and excited for each day in a long, long time.
Thank you all here....
My other crush, T....good to hear from you! Wow...it looks like your sbtxw is on Planet Zog as an abductee.
It is so good to hear that your S16 is getting better with each passing time and can count on you to guide him on the right path.
How's your band coming along??!
Thank you
I feel badly for her Wonka, I really do. I do pray for her to find herself and heal, conquer her demons (or at least get them under control), find peace, every night.
The band is going awesomely, just amazing to work with brilliant, talented people who have their chit together.
We should be ready for some gigs in a couple/few months, and then there is the local music festival in late spring, THAT is our medium term goal.
All 3 sons are doing well, all things considered. The whole vibe and energy has gone mostly positive in the house.
T - I'm taking your post above from 9/04/14 and prnting it out.
Amazing post.
Thank you.
Tad
I am honored Tad....
Nothing much new in my sitch, life continues to be awesome!
Finally got stbx's info for the D paperwork from her. A few times I would get frustrated with her, with how little importance timeliness was to her for her D. I almost vented with my kids around, but remembered:
-She is my kids' Mother.
-They are 50% her.
-If they hear me dissing her, being angry, sarcastic, etc...I am being that way
to them.
-She is important to them, so her welfare will be important to me, for their sakes. And my own value system.
So I am finally able to get the paperwork done hopefully tomorrow and to my lawyer and get this D thingy done.
We are pretty much no contact, aside from some kid stuff and D stuff.
I'm good with that.
The past fades as the future gets clearer and brighter.
I truly wish her peace and happiness, a happy life.
I have what I want, including lots of bacon...
Mmmmmm.........Bacon.
You sound so "at peace". That made me smile, T.
I'm so happy for you.
Interesting, how in the beginning, we seem to fear the big-bad "D" word.
Today you called it a "thingy".
That's pretty cool.
T,
I am very proud of you because you've been super patient w/your w. I'm glad you didn't say anything to her or the children about the way she's been about providing the paperwork you needed to file for a divorce. Keep in mind timeliness is not one of their strong suits while in crisis. Time has no meaning to them, especially when we are waiting on something from them.
A new year is not far off and I can honestly say that there will be many new and exciting adventures and experiences in store for you and your children.
"Dad", you've done a great job of being there for your children and they aren't going to forget the way in which you've handled a very frustrating, nerve wracking, and basically uncomfortable situation. My hat's off to you today!
T2,
Impressed and glad for the knowledge you have, and your ability to share that with others in need.
This is your story, it only ends when you're no longer in it. Meaning...who knows what will happen down the road. Well, with the exception that this time you'll be doing a lot more of the steering.
Thank you all
Hi T^2, your story is not only compelling but inspiring to all of us for how well you handled yourself during the long battle, and thru all that was thrown at you. There are some gaps for those of us who are reading this after the fact, and if you will permit me, I would like to ask some questions:
- has your W reached out to you during the divorce process?
- is there any part of your story where you think things may have turned out otherwise if something was done differently?
- on 12/11/2013 you wrote that you "always worried about quitting right before the finish and also worried about hanging on too long." I know your W made the final decision to end the m, but looking back would you have ended this any earlier if you had to do it all over again?
- I see two major turning points in your description. First, on 2/10/2014, you found your W's note saying "Find true love", and you carpet-bombed her with many "truth darts". Do you know when this note was written?
- why do you feel that this note hit you so hard?
- what do you think was the ultimate impact on your R of your confronting your W after finding the note?
- The 2nd turning point was when your W decided on the 2 month separation. Why do you think she asked for this?
- Did you see any other women during 2014?
What strikes me about your sitch is how many times you mentioned progress, her coming out of the tunnel, her opening up to you, initiating convos, sharing her feelings, texting "sending you a hug", and you saw your W trying. I know your W ended this, but do you think more time could possibly have resulted in a different result?
Thank you for sharing this amazing story, and any insights you care to share looking back.
Hi T2,
I feel like we are at a similar place in our situations. Your continued patience with your wife over all these years should be an inspiration to others who are faced with this situation. You continue to show a class act and that will register with your children now and into the future.
I am sure you get the same question I get from others, "What will you do if someday she comes back to you?" Have you thought about this and where do you stand on it right now?
I will answer LT's question first, it's easier...
If I am not in a committed or serious R, then I will at least hear her out. I promised her Mom I would. See if she has conquered or at least got her demons under control. See what she has learned, see if she has done the work.
My biggest concern would be (at the moment), that she would "run" again in some fashion, whether eating disorders, obsession with psychic/new agey stuff, other men, internet addiction, or physically, again, when things got less than easy/fun. Because all those are escape/avoid tactics, imo.
If I am in a serious or committed R? Hmmm... I would probably
want to hear her out, whether out of curiosity, closure or validation (ego), I'm not sure, but probably all 3.
Would I? That I would have to wrestle with at the time. Assuming I have properly done my work on myself, and connected with another person who has as well.... why would I look back?
I'll figure it out then if that ever happens.
Well Wet, you have your revenge on my thinking questions to you...
Here goes:
has your W reached out to you during the divorce process?
Post her ending the marriage we had some talks, which I posted the highlights here. Otherwise, aside from kid, finances or divorce? No. Wait, one time she texted me that she was sorry for hurting me.
is there any part of your story where you think things may have turned out otherwise if something was done differently?
I have pondered that a lot. I made many mistakes. Maybe if I would have stopped pursuing quicker? But I really don't know if it would have made any difference in the outcome. Probably not, because it is her process/journey, imo.
on 12/11/2013 you wrote that you "always worried about quitting right before the finish and also worried about hanging on too long." I know your W made the final decision to end the m, but looking back would you have ended this any earlier if you had to do it all over again?
No, I had to see it through, see her in a "saner" place so if she did leave, she would be better able to handle things alone. And I had to do it for me, so that I would not look back and wonder "what if".
I see two major turning points in your description. First, on 2/10/2014, you found your W's note saying "Find true love", and you carpet-bombed her with many "truth darts". Do you know when this note was written?
Sometime that January.
why do you feel that this note hit you so hard?
Aside from "it hurt"?
It pointed out reality, that she wasn't looking "here", but still "out there". And it slammed home our fundamental difference in a world view. I think/believe "true love" is made, created, worked-on, arrived at over time. She believes it's "out there" and "shouldn't" be much work (her words). This crumbled my illusion that with enough love, work and patience, anything can be overcome...at least with her. That theory requires BOTH people to believe that, and she doesn't, right now.
So the reality of things, as they were, shifted my perspective and that maybe it was time to live my truth.
what do you think was the ultimate impact on your R of your confronting your W after finding the note?
She did say that she respected me more, standing for myself and the boys. But I think (mindreading here from bits and pieces she has dropped) it also was a mirror showing her what she was really doing, which I think triggered the "run" response. She felt judged.
The 2nd turning point was when your W decided on the 2 month separation. Why do you think she asked for this?
Per her, to get a break from the sitch, the kids and responsibility so she could think without interference/influence. Knowing her, it was also a trial run, to see what it would be like, if she could do it.
Did you see any other women during 2014?
After she ended the marriage in June, yes. I dropped my shields after processing the anger/hurt. (Finally get to drop in a Star Trek reference...) I was open to wherever life was going to go. I was done.
What strikes me about your sitch is how many times you mentioned progress, her coming out of the tunnel, her opening up to you, initiating convos, sharing her feelings, texting "sending you a hug", and you saw your W trying. I know your W ended this, but do you think more time could possibly have resulted in a different result?
Well, I did discover during the last 3 years or so that I am an insufferable optimist deep down...
Truth is, I wanted to see those things as turning, was it real? Only she knows.
I feared failure, I don't typically fail at things I put my mind, heart, soul into... and I put those into this stand.
So was it more loving to continue to stand, partially driven by fear of failure, and put the family through more limbo, tension and unhealthiness? Or more loving to hear her and let her go?
The other thing is that, over the summer 2013 through to that truth dart barrage, I had been discovering my own worth. Lots of people in all different situations, here in DB-land, work, grocery store, business conferences, etc, reacted/responded to me in ways that were mirrors I didn't look into before. Showing me a "me", that neither I nor stbxw saw. The coming together of all this work we do here on ourselves.
And I started wanting better, with, or without, her.
And the "more time"? I just don't know. I was getting to "done" since summer 2013, slowly but surely.
I know your W ended this, but do you think more time could possibly have resulted in a different result?
Thinking more about this, Wet, they say the MLC is on THEIR timeline, and no one knows what it is. The LBS gets to decide how long they are willing/can wait.
In one of the talks we had, shortly after she ended the marriage, she talked more about finding herself, that she got lost in the role (that she loved) of being a young Mom with young kids, and when the 2 younger ones started moving into independence and away from her full time, of them needing her so much, her "life ended". Ironically this is the same summer her father died.
And once she found herself again, she wanted to date, because she missed out on that in her teens and twenties due to her issues.
The take away I had at the time..."replay" in full combat gear, nothing holding her back. And knowing her the way I do, I realized I had to let her go, this would never go away until she actually did it.
In Star Trek, Mr. Spock had the famous line "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one"...all this time I thought she was the one and the boys and I were the many. But I finally realized that fear up there ^^^^ (and a couple others) and the reality that I was enabling her to stay not fully developed by continuing to try to get her to work on the M/R.
I realized the "one" was really me. The kids and her were, the "many".
That was a humbling evening.
The kids had needs, deserved a peaceful life, she needed to do what she needed to do, and I was fighting it, because I did love her, but there were my ego demons at play.
And as mentioned, I was wanting something better, which included peace and something better for the kids.
So I accepted my reality, her reality, the kids reality.
I got out of the way.
And started moving on.
I haven't thought about this in a while. I did try to tell of what I thought at the time, without the hindsight clarity of the present.
Don't forget thou that Kirk did turn that around onSpock when he went to get him. It doesn't always make sense that way and some may see it as selfish but not the way Kirk did it.
Sometimes the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many. He went to save Spock when anyone else might have just gotten the he!! out of their. Kirk likes to change the rules to fit the best for his crew. Make the impossible possible.
WAW spouses aren't thinking of their families in the way the LBS does. My ex cared only about his happiness and believed everyone should be happy for him. His was the selfish interpretation.
Live long and prosper.
kat
Thanks for sharing your thoughts T^2, and sharing more of your story. May you "live long and prosper".
It's been awhile since I've updated my thread/story.
First of all, Thanksgiving was absolutely awesome! The boys and I had a great dinner, my two younger ones each made a side dish with my coaching, the dinner table convos were fun, full of male humor and banter. When it was time to go around and decalre what we were thankful for, the boys touched me with being thankful for the great food I cook, the new school we started this fall, etc, (oh, and video games and girls, naturally). I said that I was thankful for them, the kind of men they are becoming, and for the opportunity to finally get to be the father I always wanted to be.
They then went to their Mother's for dessert, she baked them a pie (she was good at baking). They came back a couple hours later. They didn't say much and I didn't ask.
So the beginning of the first holiday season without her was just awesome for me, content, happy, peaceful, at peace...at times I was almost giddy. Compared to the last 3? Definite improvement.
Backing up a bit, we had an unseasonal dump of snow two weekends before Thanksgiving. Sunday morning at o'dark thirty stbxw texts me wanting know what meds she was on before that seemed to work. And where I had gotten the estroven she took. So I gave her the info. Naturally, with her history of depression, I wondered...
Tuesday morning she texts me wanting to talk, I told her after my coffee kicked in (and I energized my shields).
First thing when she got on the phone she bombarded me with compliments, saying how amazing I am, how I've dealt with all this, what an awesome job I'm doing with the boys, etc, etc. Yeah, I triggered, turned shields up to 85%. I thanked her.
Then she started in with how she isn't doing well, that her car is really bad in snow and is stuck in the driveway (it has a slight down slope). She said she didn't even think about winter when she bought it (it's a 90's Mustang GT...probably one of the worst cars in the snow possible, when she bought it, I wanted to say something, but thanks to the STFU ninja techniques taught here...I said nothing..no protecting, no rescuing). She had a very hard time getting home from work the night it snowed, etc. But a volunteer at her store, a man in his 60's, is helping her get her car out (she's very good at getting people to help her, especially men). She wanted advice on what she should do, and I told what I would do.
She was spinning in a deep depression and wanted me to research meds and therapists for her. She "always" appreciated that about me...Thankfully, I installed brand spanking new tachyon "anti-Hoover" shields on Starship T2 and turned them up to full power and did not get pulled in emotionally. Mr. Spock was fully present on the bridge and in the captain's chair. She went on about how her IC may not be enough, etc. During the discussion I suggested to her, again, that with her HPD traits and that I thought that she possibly could have been suffering with bi-polar type 2 all these years (no usual "manic" cycles, just a return to "normal" usually, sometimes a very mild manic phase) that I agreed she needs more than her IC (I saw the same IC 3 years ago too), she needs a real psychologist who does DBT, it is known to work with the cluster "B" disorders (I do have a degree in psych and counseling experience). That the touchy-feely talk therapy with current IC is good as an adjunct, but she needs more, in my opinion, and knowing her half my life.
Her Mother was also sending her money for therapy, as she hasn't hit her deductible yet and can't afford the out-of-pocket (this is amazing, usually she hit her deductible on our plan by April).
I did as she asked though, because she IS my kids' Mother, and her getting better is in their interest. I texted her back some info on some Psychologists who are trained in DBT, some info on meds. But I was curious, so I called her Mom.
And yes, her Mom said she was in a spinning depression/anxiety cycle. That stbxw was wondering if she made a mistake moving out. I asked her about that. She said that stbxw "missed the kids, and that I was so good to her, took care of her, etc". But that stbxw was afraid if she came back, that when she got better she would want to leave again...
This is where MIL gave her "what fer", paraphrasing here (picture a 70 year old sweet URworthy, fired up, with a Minnesota accent
):
"T2, I told her, if you're thinking that way, Dee, you need to get yourself straightened out and figured out. Don't you DARE do that to those wonderful boys of yours. Don't you DARE do that to T2, you've put him through so much over the years already (this was "interesting"...other people seeing things I didn't). You get yourself some real help..." etc, etc.
I told MIL that there was
NO WAY I was going to disrupt the calm, structure and clean house/good food with the boys, they are doing too well in school, and in life, for her roller coaster to be brought into the picture and un-do the stability.
MIL agreed, and said that when she heard I was getting the kids, she was relieved and happy, that she knows they need a stable parent.
I then asked her, "so just that she missing her kids and that I was so good to her? Any other reasons?" (my Ego just had to know)
She replied, "No, T2, no...just about her needs and herself...I'm sorry".
Yup... no surprise here.
So after the spin cycle, back to dimmest/dark. Only contact about the kids, the D, and finances, and I almost always initiate those.
NC/dim/dark is a sanity-saver.
And Tachyon Anti-Hoover Shields?? Priceless.So that's the latest drama with stbxw.
I am so glad to be off her roller coaster.
I have been wiping a lot more of the rose-smear on my glasses regarding our M/R...and figuring myself out as to what I was thinking, did, the nasty "why's" and fears...it's good for me, but still crappy going there.
My life is so good, amazingly good. I can't describe the difference...and maybe that was an unconscious fear I had during my stand, and, during the M, that I would find I'd be better off and happier without her...
What would that say about her? Or,... me? I avoided that weed big-time.
And looking at my current R with NW/GF? I'm floored at what a very drama-free R feels like, how it works.
But I'm new to this.
I am very happy for you. You've come a long way and your life is unfolding in ways that you never expected. Thanksgiving sounded awesome!
Keep up the good work! I can't wait to hear what happens over the holidays coming up!
Glad to hear how well you are doing, T2!
Funny, my W sounds much like your W only she wants to believe that she doesn't need IC or meds anymore because I and our M was the cause of her depression. I wish my MIL had the guts to talk to her D the way yours did. She feels the same way, will say the same things but won't say the words to my W for fear of being seen as "unsupportive". The thing is she is losing her D day by day as W has totally stopped caring about her and her mothers side of the family and only about her father. Someone really needs to have a talk with her about getting help. Not me of course, as all that would do is make things worse. I really hope your W gets the help she needs so badly. Every time my W started to feel better about our M before she left, she would say the same thing about being afraid that she would just want to leave again later. Must be a common fear.
Awesome to see how well you and your sons are doing. I have only girls myself, makes for a whole different atmosphere and conversation subjects! You are so lucky to have them most of the time. I really feel most natural, at my best, when with my girls. You sound like a great dad, T2. And a drama free R? I wonder what that must feel like!
Thank you job!
Her family opened presents on x-mas eve, mine x-mas day, and this works for both of us, so no trading back and forth, splitting the days or every other year. That will be good for the boys.
I agree, the no back and forth/splitting of days will be ideal for your sons.
You have been an inspiration to the readers, not only w/the way you've handled you situation, but w/your growth, sage advice and your humor.
Keep up the good work and please don't be a stranger here. You are still part of the family even though you are blazing new trails in the world called life.
T2,
It was a very warm and fuzzy reading for me to see you updating all of us about your 'new life'. Seems you've hit many milestones in your new life...even NW/GF!!! Way to go. Your boys do need you as the positive male influence and they will be watching you how you treat their mother (and GF) for they will learn how to treat a woman with respect regardless of how they respond to you.
Matt, she was trying to stay off them and fix herself, herself. But she told me she realizes she may not be able to do it naturally, via herbs, etc, right now.
I love having full custody (she gets unlimited visitation time, I just need to be informed ahead of time). Sad thing is that 2 of the boys have issues being with her (though I have made it clear I expect them to spend time with her), and she doesn't initiate much visitation time outside of picking them up from school on her days off during the week.
But I know my responsibility is solely to not damage their R's...but I do try to encourage every now and then, like over Thanksgiving break I texted her, and them, to maybe see if they could do some stuff... nada.
Drama-free R? It feels weird sometimes, lol...yet refreshing. Kind of gives you some perspective, which is why I'm digging into myself some more, as "less than fun" as that is, it needs doing, ya know?
I still read and follow sitches job, sometimes comment and try to help, especially for the guys here. I want to pay it forward, the blessing this forum is and how much you all helped me, helped me grow into the man I want to be.
Thank you Wonka, and I read your latest update, congrats (I think...lol) on meeting with EXW and feeling "nada"...
I am acutely aware of being watched, I think I've done well so far
I did fail to mention that one of the things that had stbxw spinning was that I paid my L retainer and the petition is in progress after doing all the legwork. That it was real now...
My L front loaded all the discovery into the petition, so the judge has all the info needed and demonstrated that she is actually coming out a wee bit better financially than I am. I will most likely waive child support, but I might just take a fraction of it to avoid having the stress of her voluntarily giving some financial support and having to contact and nag. Not sure on that one yet.
She (my L) also wrote in a default clause that if stbxw did not respond within the 20 day state mandated "cooling off period", that it would go through as stipulated.
We shall see, my L has a trial that is taking a lot longer than she expected, but we should be filed here soon.
Yep, that could cause some spinning for her, especially w/her thinking about it now w/the holidays upon us. I think you are doing the right thing by setting a time limit on the response. If you don't, it could drag out for quite a bit.
Your filing will take place soon. It will be interesting to see how your wife handle all of this along w/the holidays.
I installed brand spanking new tachyon "anti-Hoover" shields on Starship T2 and turned them up to full power and did not get pulled in emotionally. Mr. Spock was fully present on the bridge and in the captain's chair.
LMAO ... love this one ... I am currently on Amazon searching for my own.
Yes, the timing is less than ideal, but had to wait until after her trip in October with the boys to avoid violating the default restraining order that is issued when D is filed that neither parent can take the kids out of state for more than 72 hours.
It is what is...
^^^^^ LOL, hey, Cali, does Amazon have one in pink??
Adding to my Christmas list, too.
T, it is truly wonderful to read how well you are doing. The boys and Thanksgiving.....that's gold, right there. They will remember for years, what dad did during those tough years.
My S18 was telling me today, how much he remembers from 8 years ago. It matters.
Ummmm... I usually do (((((hugs))))....
How about an appropriate and respectful "hearty handshake"??
I am currently on Amazon searching for my own.
Shipping is fast, but the assembly, installation and field testing takes quite a while...
How about an appropriate and respectful "hearty handshake"?? grin
LMAO!!! Okay, done dealio.
T,
Time for a new thread! What will the title be for your new one?