Hello everyone,
This is my first post and not certain I'm doing this right but.....
As background, My wife and I have been married 20 years. We have 2 girls ages 14 and 18. For most of our marriage my wife was a stay at home mom. She comes from a very bad family background where her dad left her mom, brother and her for OW when my wife was 10 and her brother 7. He left them while they were on vacation 1000 miles from home after his OW said she wanted him to come back. He left her mom, a boat, a camper and the kids and flew back home. When they got home he had moved to another state! He never paid ANY child support, drug the divorce out for ten years so he didn't have to give her ANY money at all. He put his business in his OW's name and all her mom got was the house.My wife had little contact with him growing up and always felt "uncomfortable" around him. Their relationship didn't get better as she got older (he got remarried and didn't bother to even tell her he did let alone invite her to the wedding!)and while she really wanted to have a good relationship with him, he made zero effort.
About 7 years ago her grandfather (dad's) died after long illness after moving to live with her dad. He lives 900 miles away and he called and asked my wife (stay at home mom) to come and help him with memorial service for him. She was to stay a month with me coming up the last week and we driving back together in a car her GF had left her (she took kids). When I got up there she was a different person! She had left the kids either alone or with her brothers horrible ex-wife and troubled kids every day so she could spend time with her dad and his new wife. She was mean, insulting and acting selfish. The third day I was there her dad came to me and said that he was having a dinner party for my wife but there just wasn't room for me or our youngest daughter, 7 (oldest wasn't there that day)and to "stay away" and not "bother" the party! My wife went along with this. The next day I told her I was going to fly home with the kids. She could stay as long as she liked but it was certain she didn't want me or them there! She begged me to stay and said we could leave the next day and I relented but we stayed another 3 days and she didn't change her attitude! This when I found out her father had told her he wanted to "make-up" for all the bad he had done over the years but that he thought she was wasting her life as a stay at home mom and she needed to LEAVE ME so he and she could do things together like go to Europe for a month! When she got home she said she felt depressed and ended up going to the dr and getting dignosed with depression. She spent the next 3 years on drugs for depression and our lives never have been the same.
Towards the end of her depression she started to take a new drug because she had no sex drive on the others. All this did was make her want to have sex but never really enjoy it. She said it made her feel like she had an itch that couldn't be scratched and she started avoiding sex altogether. She decided to go back to work (has a great degree in Med field and makes good money)hoping this would help her feel better. I was all for it and helped as much as I could. She was so depressed that I really took over around the house anyway as she was always "too tired" to do anything like clean. Well, when she went back to work she really threw herself into it and I tried to be supportive. One day I found her crying in our bed. I asked her what was wrong and she said she didn't feel she was "part of the group" of other women at work and felt left out. I told her to just be yourself, be interested in them and they will come around. DUMB! She started to spend ALL her time with her new friends at work. Refused to do things with me nor the kids but always was going out with her friends doing the same things she refused to do with us! She refused to go on vacation with us saying she wanted to save those for seeing her dad and we should take seperate vacations anyway, that's what her dad and his family do! Our sex life stopped and she was always mad at me and at work or with her friends from work. I tried all kinds of things to get her involved with me and the kids but nothing worked. She started to get mean and cridical. 2 years ago on our anniversery she told me that she wasn't "attracted" to me anymore but that blew over (still almost no sex).
Last year after trying to talk to her about our sex life she told me that the reason she wasn't was because she was afraid of getting pregnant again and said if I got a vasectomy she would be more comfortable. So that's what I did (yeah, dumb). A week before I got the "all clear" from the dr.she sat me dowm and said she was unhappy, I was unhappy and she just didn't love me the "right" way and wanted a divorce! Now, before the dr would do the vas. we had to fill out a form asking if either of us had ANY thoughts of seperation or divorce and if the answer was yes, he wouldn't do it. She said it was the LAST thing on her mind and wanted to grow old together! When I asked about that she said she had "changed her mind" and "couldn't help that she had". Now, 3 months before this the co. I worked for closed out of the blue and I was without a job for the first time in 12 years. I had a chance to get involved with a start-up where it would take a year or two to start making good money but was a great oppertunity. We had talked about it and she said I should do as she makes enough to pay the bills in the mean time, now she wanted a divorce! Her reason at first were about something that happened 20 years before and made no sense. After the first month that went away and new reasons came out. When they went away it nows turns on her just wanting to be in charge of her own life, wanting to have her own identity, not part of a couple and since Dec. needing to "find her joy" which she can't do with me around! She said she would stay until I started to make better money and for the kids. That was 10 months ago. Things have not gotten better and I realize now that she is fully in MLC I think triggered by her grandfather dying and her dad wanting her back in his life IF she does what he wants. Over the 10 months things have gotten better but than she talks to her dad and they go bad again. The worse was a month ago when he started to bug her to visit him in Fla.(alone). She came back from that trip not wearing her ring and opened a secret bank account that she doesn't even know I know about. When she texted her dad she did this he told her that that was "empowering" and said to change the codes on the computer as well to keep me out (which she did last Sunday). Every other of her friends and realitives tell her NOT to leave, her mom especially but she doesn't listen and gets angry at them. She has lost so much weight she is TOO thin (weighs less than when we were married 20 years ago), has bought all new clothes, new hair, wants attention from other men. She bragged about flirting with men on her trip to Fla. (she called it "working on her people skills")sleeps on the couch and refuses to even touch me. She spews at times but is mostly nice in a fake way. She goes out with her friends and even got so drunk at a bacthertte party 2 weeks ago she couldn't drive home and had to stay the night.(She NEVER was a big drinker).
Since this started she went from wanting a D to now wanting a "trial seperation" but won't back off from leaving me. The kids are angry at her as she spends little or no time with them and they know how she is treating me. I try to let them know I still love her and she loves them and never bad mouth her. Each time things get better, her dad gets involved and they get even worse as she listens to him (and ONLY him). She refuses to go to MC saying it's a waste of money. I really think she knows deep down it's not me or her marriage that is the problem but wants so badly to feel better she wants a big change. About 6 months ago she was going crazy with worry about her health and ended up going back on the pills that messed up her sex life. She was upset about this and when she asked the dr about the effects on her sex drive she says he told her "only women in bad marriages have those problems" (now she says the dr agrees we have a "bad marriage"). She went on hormone replacement and started to take testosterone and when I asked why since we don't have sex, she said she wanted to again just not with me! Since she stopped using it. I messed up at the start, begging, crying, etc. but since have started to detach.I had lost contact with my friends and now am trying to get my life back. I had to do most of everything when she became depressed and never really stopped. She doesn't cook, only does laundry on weekends, I do the rest.She started that I had "treated her like a child" for years and I guess she's right but someone had to take over when she couldn't get out of bed!
I feel like it's now or never. I still don't make enough as I have not put all my effort into my new job and may have to just quit and get something else. Our savings are now gone as she still spends like we have 2 incomes and now she's hiding money because her dad said too. I just Finished "Divorce Remedy" and trying to do a 180 and GAL.She went on a week long trip to DC with our youngest (I told her she should go)and will be back tonight. I haven't told her I know about the bank account yet. Do I confront her? I'm trying to give her space and don't bring up R issues at all but this is big as we need that money!
Anyone have any thoughts?
I strongly urge you to speak to a Divorce Busting Coach. Our coaches are highly trained relationship specialists. As long as one partner is committed to the process, we can help you get your marriage back on track. Call me to discuss our coaching program. 303-444-7004
Welcome to this board.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)
I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.
I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956The link for the resources:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1539436Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Doormat tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...444#Post1942444Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1Why they run:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=67406&page=1http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...6668#Post526668Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=714209Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741Odds and Ends of MLC(new from Delboy)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=656357#Post656357MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.
I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.
The stages of MLC as rewritten by HB from Jim Conway are a template
which can only be laid over an MLCer's experience retrospectively.
It's impossible to see the pattern until it has finished being laid or the crisis is complete.(nickel Cyrena).
So do not be too concerned where your MLC'er is in this process.
(Although my general guess is that they are in REPLAY)
Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!
Believe none of what she says and 50% of what she does.
I would not ask him anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H as controlling or pressure.
Lets not worry about her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.
Detach the single most important thing to DO.
Your W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely
Knowledge is Power
Matt,
Sorry to find you here under those circumstances, but you will find tremendous support of like-mined community of folks who've experienced what you're going through now.
Read Cadet's homework assignments for starters.
For inspiration, ideas, and tips, you would want to check Forever Young and TSquared2's threads as they are living with a live-in female MLCer.
You're going be in this process for a looong time. Won't turn around in few weeks or few months. It will be months and months or years before your W comes out of the MLC fog.
First things first, you gotta protect your own finances. I'd start by separating your bank accounts so your W can't spend marital money wildly all over the place.
Keep posting here in your own thread and visit other threads here in the MLC forum to post in order to get traffic back to your thread.
Good luck!
Thanks Cadet and Wonka! I have just started on my homework and boy, can I see my wife and my life in so many places. Again, thank you and I'll be back as soon as I'm done my "homework"!
Hello again everyone,
Yesterday was my wife and youngest daughter's first full day back from school trip to D.C. Wife has been tired and keeping to herself. I, for my part have been trying hard to just leave her alone. She stays as far from our bedroom as possible (sleeping on the couch and spending almost all her time there) and I have just left the room for the most part and let her be. She used to read romance novels all the time and after D-day mostly stopped. Now, she has started up again and as spent her time reading or texting her friends and dad. I have been friendly but let her interact first (mostly). Last night she and I and our youngest watched movies together and she was nice but aloof. Today she didn't once ask me about going to church. You see, since this all started, I have started to go back to church (alone). She has encourged me to do this but told me that she doesn't need to go to church to "be with God". This has been something we have had to deal with since we got married. She was raised with NO church. In fact we couldn't get married in my church because of this. For awhile we went together with the kids but that stopped when she started to withdraw when her grandfather died.
I did find out that one of the reasons she wanted me to go was that she used this time without me home to call and talk to her dad. This way she didn't need to worry that I would over-hear anything she and he talked about as he has been telling her to leave for years! I joined some meet-up groups a couple weeks ago and while she was gone last week I posted that I went out on Facebook and I know she saw it. She hasn't once asked about it. The day before she left she seemed upset that I went out without her telling me that she "knows" I was lying about some part of where I went or what I was doing. I had thought about going out today but the weather isn't good and the only thing going on was outdoors so I'm just trying to stay away from her and let her do what she wants.
She has for the most part been friendly. I made dinner and she thanked me and ate with me. Then I just let her be and went back to the bedroom leaving her to read on the couch (which she now calls her 'bed", which my youngest HATES!). I am trying to stay upbeat and happy but I do sometimes get angry that she is still wanting to destroy her family just because she wants a change in her life. I haven't said that I know about her secret bank account. Not sure how she would react but probably wouldn't care what I said anyway. She was so worried when all this started that I would start hiding money (her divorced friend told her that the "injured" person always does this) but I never did and now SHE is doing just that because her dad told her too!
After reading about why some people go through MLC, I know it's about her childhood and her dad abandoning her. Now, she see's him wanting her in his life and i'm in her way as he won't accept her unless she leaves me. So, instead of trying to talk to him and tell him how he hurt her. She see's a chance to HAVE the realionship she never did with him NOW. A 2nd chance to have the man who hurt her love her instead. She can't see that if he truly did care about her he would accept her for who she is, a wife and a mother but won't. He tells her he wants to make-up for all he did that was bad but to do that it has to be just her, no husband, no kids. Why can't she see him for what he is? Why does she even want him back in her life if he will only do so on HIS terms? If I told her that I only would accept her if she did certain things or was a certain person she would laugh!
I also see that as she started her MLC I started to chase her. The less I chase, the more she tries to get me too. This has been going on for years! During times when she was being real she has said things that tell me that she doesn't want to keep this going. We were watching a movie once and some guy was upset about his girlfriend not wanting him anymore. She said "All he has to do is stop caring about her and ignore her! That's how you get a girl interested in you, just not care!". Also, a big part of our problem is that when she started having sex problems while on depression meds our sex life went to hell. We always had had a great sex life with her havong an "O" everytime (she said this). When she was on the drugs, that stopped and now she even has trouble masterbating and can't seem to get her enjoyment back. This scares the hell out of her and is why she started using testosterone in hopes of getting it back. She stopped using it as I stupidly got upset about it since she refused to have sex or even touch me and when I asked her why she needed it she said so she could someday have sex with other people (now I know it was the MLC talking and should have not reacted!). She can't even bring herself to touch me and in the past said that was because whenever she touched me, I touched her back and she didn't want that! (Not sexually, just things like returning a hug and such). This part has me the most worried as unless she stops feeling that touching me is bad, we have no chance of ever getting through this with our marriage intact.
She tells me that she doesn't want to see other people but stopped wearing her ring. She tells me she worries that if we get divorced she'll turn into an "old cat lady" and never have love in her life again but loses weight and seeks attention from men. There have been times where from what she says she may have had an affair in the past but nothing solid. At one time after she went back to work there were some indications that she may have but I trusted her and dismissed them, now I'm not so sure. She may have and now feels guilty or that if I knew I would reject her. If things don't change soon, it's just a matter of time before it happens. It may be one of the reasons she wants out of our marriage so she can if she wants. I mean why use testosterone when she didn't even want a relationship and say she enjoys sex and wants to have it again after saying she doesn't want one. Again, MLC and saying things that make no sense.
I'm trying to keep from chasing her at all. I'm trying to GAL and do things on my own without her. She said from the start that one of the things that she didn't like was that I didn't go out and do things on my own and have enough of a life seperate from her and our kids! I wish I could find a way to stop her father from getting between us as each time she started to come out he gets involved and she runs back in the tunnel. I think without his pushing her, she may have been able to deal but here's the person who caused her so much pain and he's telling her "Just do this and I'll love you and make up for all the hurt I caused", I can see why she wants this. All she ever wanted from him was love and acceptence and here he is telling her he will give it to her if she does what he did! She's already hurting and confused and add that and no wonder she can't get through this!
Any thoughts from others are welcome as this detatching is hard and it feels so wrong but I can see that it makes sense!
M-52
W-47
M-20 yrs. T-25
2D's, 14 and 18
B-day 6/13 (ILYBNILWY), wants a divorce and not even try
Still home but planning to go, sleeps on couch, no sex, no touching
Matt,
Good to see that you're back here and posting. Keep on posting. Don't need to wait until you finish your "homework."
She stays as far from our bedroom as possible (sleeping on the couch and spending almost all her time there) and I have just left the room for the most part and let her be.
Staying out of the bedroom is her choice. You cannot control W's actions.
Last night she and I and our youngest watched movies together and she was nice but aloof.
That's good. No pressuring W with hanging around her and every word she says.
For awhile we went together with the kids but that stopped when she started to withdraw when her grandfather died.
The MLCer will withdraw from people and activities they used to enjoy. It is part and parcel of feeling pressure from the outside world. It is THEIR journey.
I did find out that one of the reasons she wanted me to go was that she used this time without me home to call and talk to her dad. This way she didn't need to worry that I would over-hear anything she and he talked about as he has been telling her to leave for years!
You are mindreading here. Unless W specifically said this to you, you really just don't know the real reason.
I joined some meet-up groups a couple weeks ago and while she was gone last week I posted that I went out on Facebook and I know she saw it. She hasn't once asked about it.
You want to be sure that you're joining these activities because you LIKE them, not to get W's attention. Focus on YOU. Try not to worry if W notices or not.
The day before she left she seemed upset that I went out without her telling me that she "knows" I was lying about some part of where I went or what I was doing.
Good! You have your own life to lead and cannot worry too much what W thinks or will say. Being upset is her own choice and she needs to own these emotions.
She has for the most part been friendly. I made dinner and she thanked me and ate with me. Then I just let her be and went back to the bedroom leaving her to read on the couch (which she now calls her 'bed", which my youngest HATES!).
Matt, are you saying that you don't hang out in the living room or in other parts of the house, right? If that's the case, then you've got to take back your own house! Don't go hide away in the bedroom. If she has a problem with you being around her, let her move away.
I am trying to stay upbeat and happy but I do sometimes get angry that she is still wanting to destroy her family just because she wants a change in her life.
Careful there. You cannot blame W for all of this sorry mess. It takes two to have gotten to this point. Own up your part and take a long look at what you've contributed to this as well.
I haven't said that I know about her secret bank account. Not sure how she would react but probably wouldn't care what I said anyway. She was so worried when all this started that I would start hiding money (her divorced friend told her that the "injured" person always does this) but I never did and now SHE is doing just that because her dad told her too!
I would want to keep an eye on the marital assets and money. Sometimes MLCers will just blow through money like there's no tomorrow. If you haven't already done so, I'd suggest that you set up your own account and keep the joint account to a minimum to ensure that it does not negatively affect you financially.
After reading about why some people go through MLC, I know it's about her childhood and her dad abandoning her. Now, she see's him wanting her in his life and i'm in her way as he won't accept her unless she leaves me. So, instead of trying to talk to him and tell him how he hurt her. She see's a chance to HAVE the realionship she never did with him NOW.
This is W's chit to figure out all by herself. This is something she feels compelled to do herself and let her be. You cannot get in the way of that father-child reconciliation irrespective if it's healthy or not. It is not for you to decide. Eventually, W will hopefully figure this out in due course.
He tells her he wants to make-up for all he did that was bad but to do that it has to be just her, no husband, no kids. Why can't she see him for what he is? Why does she even want him back in her life if he will only do so on HIS terms?
I see this as presenting some valuable life lessons for all parties involved: you, W and FIL. You need to figure out how you want to conduct yourself in this part of life's circle. Each one of you has a role to play in this new wrinkle. The way I am seeing this is that FIL is most likely sees you as a "competitor" for his daughter's affections. This is what occurs when one parent has been away for so long that they've missed out on some important milestones in their child's life. It is pretty clear that FIL is not a very secure or self-assured person. Your W will need to go through this life lesson to reconcile some of the various versions of a Daddy in her life.
We were watching a movie once and some guy was upset about his girlfriend not wanting him anymore. She said "All he has to do is stop caring about her and ignore her! That's how you get a girl interested in you, just not care!".
Are you really listening to one of the more lucid thoughts from W? Sometimes the MLCer will very rarely say a pretty lucid thing to the LBS. This is when it is critically IMPORTANT to pay attention. These are the gems to tuck away in the back of your mind.
Also, a big part of our problem is that when she started having sex problems while on depression meds our sex life went to hell. We always had had a great sex life with her havong an "O" everytime (she said this). When she was on the drugs, that stopped and now she even has trouble masterbating and can't seem to get her enjoyment back. This scares the hell out of her and is why she started using testosterone in hopes of getting it back.
Drugs may or may not play in this part. For me, while I was in my MLC, my sex drive took a big dive. I think it was due to the MLC depression. We struggle with a whole yarn ball of emotions that confuse us thus a jumble of numbo jumbo tumble out of our mouths. Which is why it is important not to take things personally when the MLCer says hurtful things sometimes.
She can't even bring herself to touch me and in the past said that was because whenever she touched me, I touched her back and she didn't want that! (Not sexually, just things like returning a hug and such). This part has me the most worried as unless she stops feeling that touching me is bad, we have no chance of ever getting through this with our marriage intact.
Many MLcers get numb with their spouses. Our circuits are all whacked out so we run away from our spouses emotionally so this is what you'll see from W. It is NOT you. All of this is W's chit to figure out by her lonesome self. If you will, you'll see that a lot of MLCers flinch away when their spouse attempts to touch them. It is not YOU. I know...easier said than done. You'll have to treat them as a "housemate" to help with the detachment.
She tells me she worries that if we get divorced she'll turn into an "old cat lady" and never have love in her life again but loses weight and seeks attention from men.
It is a classic MLC-talk. We all worry about losing our youthful looks and missing out on life. Feeling we've not accomplished much. So we run like mad trying to make up for whatever's lost in our lives. W feels the need to feel attractive so she checks to see if she's able to stir up interest from other men.
If things don't change soon, it's just a matter of time before it happens. It may be one of the reasons she wants out of our marriage so she can if she wants.
You just don't know....an awful lot of mindreading here.
I mean why use testosterone when she didn't even want a relationship and say she enjoys sex and wants to have it again after saying she doesn't want one.
You're speculating. Have you come right out and asked W this? It doesn't matter what W really thinks anyway for it is illogical and irrational. A lot of MLCer's thought process is on the blinker so many things that come out of their mouths are very illogical. It's the norm for the MLCer. Goodness knows what I've said to Ms. Wonka during my MLC!!
I wish I could find a way to stop her father from getting between us as each time she started to come out he gets involved and she runs back in the tunnel. I think without his pushing her, she may have been able to deal but here's the person who caused her so much pain and he's telling her "Just do this and I'll love you and make up for all the hurt I caused", I can see why she wants this.
You cannot possibly even entertain the possibility of interfering with their relationship. Oh my...you'll get some serious blowback from them. Don't go there, Matt. W is gonna have to figure this chit on her own. You may not like this at all. I can clearly see that W is probably feeling very conflicted and confused. Who wouldn't if their parent suddenly came back in their lives and hectoring them to give up their life to join them. I do feel for your W and the mess she's gotten into with her father. It is their chit to figure out. Just leave them be.
Also by interfering with this process, you will delay the MLC process even further and prolong it even longer. You wouldn't want to do this, right? Just let this progress naturally without your interference.
All she ever wanted from him was love and acceptence and here he is telling her he will give it to her if she does what he did! She's already hurting and confused and add that and no wonder she can't get through this!
That is assuming that you THINK you KNOW how your W feels and thinks. Be careful there, buddy. You're wading into dangerous territory here. Maybe, just maybe, W can get through this...that is her choice. It is a path that she feels compelled to walk on with or without you.
Thank you Wonka!
Yes, some of this is "mind reading" and I'm trying not to do that. When I asked about the Testosterone she told me she's using it because "I like sex and I want to have sex again. Just not with you". So that was her answer.
I do know better than to try and come between her and her dad. I just wish he had just stayed the hell out of our lives!
Yes, very lucid moment when she told me how to "win" back a woman! I have a feeling that as I detach, I may see a different side of her but trying to only do things for me. Not to get her attention. It's sometimes hard to seperate the two but I'm trying. One good thing is I'm getting along better with my daughters than ever before and trying to do more with them.
Thanks for the input. It is helpful!
Matt
I am sorry that you find yourself here. I will echo Wonka comments that you will find a lot of people in similar sitchs as yourself. Read as much as possible and know that HER MLC is NOT YOUR FAULT. You did not cause it and YOU cannot fix it.
You will receive a lot of advice here, some of it will be useful, some not. YOU will need to learn how to sift through the advice and apply things that work for you in YOUR specific sitch.
First things first…..breath….take a few deep breaths….
As Wonka pointed out, MLC is not something that just “goes away overnight”. YOUR W is not on HER own journey and you on YOUR own. No one here can guarantee when and IF she will ever get past her MLC.
There is no magic pill.
Right now, you will need to focus on YOU and the kids.
Please READ ALL of the resources that Cadet provided on your thread.
]Did you see any changes in your W before her trip to help her dad with her grandfather’s arrangements?
Did you see any changes before her trip?
I still don't make enough as I have not put all my effort into my new job and may have to just quit and get something else.
now she's hiding money because her dad said too.
I would make copies of what is going on. Legally, she should not be doing this. Also, keep track of the finances (credit cards, etc.). MLCers can blow through cash faster than they can make it. So PROTECT yourself.
I joined some meet-up groups a couple weeks ago and while she was gone last week I posted that I went out on Facebook and I know she saw it.
Joining a meet-up group is a great idea. Right now, you need to focus on keeping your spirits up and this is a good way to do it. In terms of Facebook…..personally, I would watch what I post. If you do decide to post something…do it because YOU want to….not in the hope that she will “see it” and wonder or respond.
I am trying to stay upbeat and happy but I do sometimes get angry that she is still wanting to destroy her family just because she wants a change in her life.
I would NOT expect your W to add to your happiness right now, so staying upbeat and happy is YOUR responsibility. As for her wanting to destroy her family, chances are that she does see it that way. You are right…she wants to change…and she will do it on her terms and timeline. You are going to get angry Matt. It is normal. Find outlets to let the anger out in a constructive way (much easier said than done).
She was so worried when all this started that I would start hiding money (her divorced friend told her that the "injured" person always does this) but I never did and now SHE is doing just that because her dad told her too!
I can’t say it enough….protect your finances and right now…as a married couple…your finances are JOINT.
After reading about why some people go through MLC, I know it's about her childhood and her dad abandoning her. Now, she see's him wanting her in his life and i'm in her way as he won't accept her unless she leaves me. So, instead of trying to talk to him and tell him how he hurt her. She see's a chance to HAVE the realionship she never did with him NOW. A 2nd chance to have the man who hurt her love her instead. She can't see that if he truly did care about her he would accept her for who she is, a wife and a mother but won't. He tells her he wants to make-up for all he did that was bad but to do that it has to be just her, no husband, no kids. Why can't she see him for what he is? Why does she even want him back in her life if he will only do so on HIS terms?
Spending time trying to make sense of HER actions is pointless – although I have a funny feeling you are going to continue to waste time and energy trying to figure out “why”? IMO, the WHY doesn’t matter – not anymore.
So Matt….let me ask you a question….
Where does Matt want to be in 2 years? What things to you want in YOUR life? What dreams do you have? Oh…and I know restoring your M is one of them so you do not have to list that one.
I did everything by myself to figure out "why" and well even if I did figure it out for myself (which may not be the true reason "why") in the end it still doesn't matter. Do what they are telling you. DB Work on yourself and move on, because that's what to focus on. If she ever figures things out for herself and she wants you to be in her life, you may want her in yours or you may be wanting to continue on a different path. Take one day at a time and Let Go Let God.
Hello and thank you for taking time for me, Eric.
The changes I saw in my wife before she went on her trip were subtle. Our youngest had just started school full time and she was home alone most of the day. She didn't have many (any?) female friends and was becoming isolated. She talked about going back to work part time and I supported that. Other than that, things were good.
Before her latest trip, she was still sleeping in the same bed (no sex but would accept back rubs from me when she was stressed), still wore her ring and was being nicer than she had in a long time. She even texted me when she was on her way many times and was looking to me to help her as she was nervous about going alone. 2 days into the trip the texts stopped and she started texting our daughter and her work friends instead. She got back not wearing her ring and bragging about flirting with several men on the plane and in the airport. She called it working on her "people skills". I did not react to this in a negitive way in front of her. A week later she had texted her dad and deleated her side but I was able to figure out she was telling him she opened her own back account. He told her she needed to change her passwords on email and computer as well so I wouldn't find out. I had already seen an email from the bank welcoming her as a new account holder and set it up so she wouldn't get anything in the mail to our home. This is WAY not like her.
As for me in 2 years...... I would like to be back to making the kind of money I was until the co I worked for closed. I'm involved in a start up and would like that to be taking off. I want to keep my youngest in private school for her last 4 years (something that was important to my wife until she said she wanted a divorce. Now she says she is "better off" in public school in the area she wants to live by herself in). I want to have friends that I can do fun things with and a special person to share my life with. I want that person to be my wife! We have been together for 25 years. For all but the last year she always said she would NEVER divorce. Never put her kids thru what she went through. Divorce was for "weak" people and unless there was abuse, any problem could be worked out. This is one reason I reacted badly when she dropped the bomb. I NEVER expected to hear those words come out of her. It was just 12 weeks before she said she had NO thoughts of seperation or divorce just before I got the vasectomy and now she "changed her mind" and "can't help that". Her value about marriage was something that if she had felt different about, I wouldn't have married her in the first place. I always vowed never to marry someone who thought that divorce was an option and never wanted to go through that horror!
Thanks again and any thoughts are appreciated!
Matt
A week later she had texted her dad and deleted her side but I was able to figure out she was telling him she opened her own back account. He told her she needed to change her passwords on email and computer as well so I wouldn't find out. I had already seen an email from the bank welcoming her as a new account holder and set it up so she wouldn't get anything in the mail to our home. This is WAY not like her.
If possible, you want to keep an eye on finances. “WAY not like her”…may end up being an understatement – I hope that is not the case.
Have you read all of the material that Cadet posted?
I would like to be back to making the kind of money I was until the co I worked for closed.
How do you see that happening? What can YOU do to make this a reality for YOU?
I want to keep my youngest in private school for her last 4 years (something that was important to my wife until she said she wanted a divorce. Now she says she is "better off" in public school in the area she wants to live by herself in).
Sounds reasonable to me. Do you have a plan for how you can try and ensure that this happens? Maybe start putting money into an account for her education. As for your W comments….typical MLC behavior. Ignore her responses. Right now, your W is probably more focused on HERSELF than anyone else.
I want to have friends that I can do fun things with and a special person to share my life with.
Define what a good friend is to YOU? Do any of your current friends meet this criteria? Have you considered joining more meet up groups? What kind of hobbies do YOU have?
I reacted badly when she dropped the bomb.
Everybody usually reacts badly. It happened in the past ….so let it go.
Her value about marriage was something that if she had felt different about, I wouldn't have married her in the first place.
As hard as it is…separate HER ACTIONS from HER the PERSON. Her actions right now s*ck. Clearly she has changed…and so have you. Chances are you BOTH no longer the same person you were went you first met. You have no control over her and she has no control over YOU.
I always vowed never to marry someone who thought that divorce was an option and never wanted to go through that horror!
You are not divorced YET…..so keep a positive attitude (and yeah I know it is hard too). The more you THINK you are going to be divorced, the likely hood that you will.
So, what do you think were some of YOUR issues in the M? What thinks you wished you could have done differently?
I have another question as everyone thinks I need to protect myself financially....
The money she used to open the secrect account was money she used from our joint account to pay for her trip to visit her dad. She said he would pay for it but to make things easier, she paid for the plane trip. Knowing her dad, he gave her extra to use to leave me with but I don't know how much is in it. I do know because part of it was money reimbursed from our joint account, half of any funds in that account belong to me as this is a community property state. For 15 years I worked and she stayed at home with the kids and I never held any funds from her. This is the first time in 20 years she makes the majority of the money. I used more than $30,000 of money I earned just 2 years ago to pay a debt she incurred BEFORE we married!
She told her dad it was "empowering' to open her own account and not tell me but in this state it belongs to us both! Her dad did this to her mom when they divorced and put the money in the OW's name as well as his business. He never paid any child support even though my wife was 10 and her brother 7 years old and he kept the divorce tied up in court for 10 years so he didn't have to give anything to his ex.
Do I confront my wife about the account? She has asked me to take money out of our joint account several times since opening her own and still spends from our joint accounts, never her "own'. I looked into how it works and if we file, 1/2 of that money does belong to me but knowing how her MLC mind works, she will get angry AT ME if I confront her.
A few months ago I printed some paperwork about divorce and didn't know a copy was on the printer and she found it. She just brought it to me and said "This is your's" and threw it to me. Now, I wasn't even thinking of filing, I just wanted to know what the process was as she was driving us in that direction. I would never file without talking to her and I think she must know this. Maybe she thinks I'm going to file and is doing this to protect herself? I can't imagine that she would think I would ever do such a thing but with MLC maybe I need to ask her? At the time I didn't think she needed to hear that I wasn't going to file as I'm the one trying to keep us together. Any thoughts?
Thanks Eric....
I really don't have close friends I'm still in touch with. By going out more and meeting new people and trying to reconnect with others, I'm hoping to find some. The hard part is most of my old friends are married and not going through this crap. Most are couples that I'm friends with both. Hard when it's just me. They also are mostly other parents of my youngest daughters friends as that's how I've met most people over the last 12 years, from school and kids functions!
I'm trying to keep my mind on my business and work towards making that work. It's been hard as all the bad crap at home has me thinking about how to "save" my marriage. As I detach, it's gotten easier but I still need to work on that. If I can start getting this business to work as it can, the money for private school will be easier as I was able to pay for that for 2 kids for years when my wife didn't work!
As for hobbies, I am a bit in a bind there as money is tight and some of the things I want to do (like start SCUBA diving again) take money. I am going to the gym a few nights a week and joining meet up groups for hiking and such. I'm hoping to find a group that interests me and go from there. This is new and I just started this a couple weeks ago so I'm still finding my legs.
As for me and my issues in my marriage. I know that as my wife got depressed, I took over everything. I became more like a father than a husband. I became the worst "Mr. Nice Guy" doing everything and letting her walk all over me. I became upset when after she went back to work, she stopped being a wife and a mother. I pushed her to do things and when she didn't I reacted badly and ended up just doing nothing. I allowed her to just not do anything and when she would say or do something that upset me, instead of just talking to her about it, I withdrew. I started to feel like I was a single parent and when the sex stopped I also got upset. I tried being even nicer. I tried to nice guy my way to heart and that is not my normal way. I would get upset when she went a did things with her friends that she just refused to do with me. Whe all this started she said I should have just done the things (like go on vacation with the kids) and either "made" her or just done it without her. 3 years ago our youngest daughter went through a bad period. She was with a bad guy and doing things like drinking. She went and spent the night with some guy and we found out she had sex. My wife hid it from me at first but then told me. We fought about how best to handle her. She would always disagree with what I thought was right and it really came between us. When my wife told me she wanted a divorce I decided that I would no longer let her come between what I thought was best and do things the way I saw fit. The first big test was last summer when she wanted to spend the summer (on way to be Sr. in H.S.)with her new boyfriend. I said no way and my wife actually said she wished she could go away with "someone she loved" and just have sex for the summer (she also told me she did this the year she grad. from HS with her boyfriend and was "lucky" she didn't get pregnant!)and didn't want to say no to her! MLC mind in action! The only thing that bothered my wife was that people would talk and think badly of her for letting her do this! I just told my wife to stay out of my way and let me handle it. I didn't let her go, she acted out like a child (my wife got mad at me and said "I told you we should let her go"!)but in a few days was fine. That was the start of my wife letting me handle things and now my daughter is doing better than ever has a 3.7 GPA and hasn't acted out since. But I know by letting this come between my wife and I it did much damage.
She wanted me to be stronger with her. To be more like I was before, a man who took care of things, not some wimp who let his wife walk all over him. This is why when I reacted by begging and such it was so bad. Also why I NEED to detach and show her I am the man she married and not Mr. Nice Guy!
Matt
Do I confront my wife about the account? She has asked me to take money out of our joint account several times since opening her own and still spends from our joint accounts, never her "own'. I looked into how it works and if we file, 1/2 of that money does belong to me but knowing how her MLC mind works, she will get angry AT ME if I confront her.
This is a tough one to answer. On one hand, I think you should confront her on the other, you may be pushing yourself and her to a quicker meeting with a judge. Does the secret account have a lot of money in it? If not, then I do not think it is worth it. I do believe though that she needs to stop raiding the joint account.
Maybe she thinks I'm going to file and is doing this to protect herself? I can't imagine that she would think I would ever do such a thing but with MLC maybe I need to ask her? At the time I didn't think she needed to hear that I wasn't going to file as I'm the one trying to keep us together. Any thoughts?
I would not mention anything to her. Right now, you need to focus on YOU (GAL) and detachment.
Did you read the stuff that Cadet posted to you?
Hello Eric,
Yes, I read the Cadet stuff (still not totally finished) and it was eye opening in many ways. I want to be her friend again as before all this started, we were best friends but that's so hard when she is so up and down and all around in her emotions. I am learning to just try and remember that until she gets out of the MLC tunnel, I don't really want her back in my life as things will just go back to bad when she replays. I do know that my money sitch is a dual edged sword as it stopped her from just up and leaving but I need her to see that I don't need her in my life and get back to being the one who makes the most money.
I need to stop wising and hoping and just do the things I need to and not let myself get angry or upset. Easy to say and think, hard to put into action. Like today, my oldest texted that she was going to be at school for a meeting until 7:30. I got my youngest and texted my wife about it. For some reason instead of just saying "You need to pick her up at 7:30. I told her if she wanted to come home after work I'd go get her at 7:00! I shouldn't have offered but I just am so used to being the take care of it guy, I do these things and then think. Need to stop doing that!
Matt
I need to stop wising and hoping and just do the things I need to and not let myself get angry or upset.
"I need to" ----- all it takes is the first step buddy. One step at a time.
I need to stop wising and hoping and just do the things I need to and not let myself get angry or upset.
Why do you feel the need to fix everything?
What about your past (maybe) causes you to fix things?
Ok this one is one I thought about. 20 years ago just before we got married (lived together for 2 years so wife could finish college) I lost the job I loved after 12 years through no fault of my own. I had my entire Idenity wrapped up in it and became depressed. After we got married and I had trouble finding the same type of job, I started using drugs. My wife had no idea what was going on and I hid it well. After a year of me just not being me and being pretty awful, my wife said she was leaving and going to move to be with her mom 1600 miles away. I was free to go with or stay. She never asked what was wrong or tried to help but just wanted to go. I chose to go with her and it all came out on the trip. I wanted it to come out. I stopped that day and have never used again in the last 20 years. I vowed never to hurt her like that again and since, I have dedicated myself to being the best husband and later father I could. I, of course went overboard at times but always had her best interests at heart over the years.
When this all started, the first time she said she wanted a divorce, she said she never got over that. After 20 years she wished I hadn't gone with her! Of course this didn't last long once we talked and her reasons changed with in a couple days. They have changed many times until our last "talk" where she loves me but "there are many kinds of love" and she needs to "find her joy" and can't do that with me around.
I know over the last 20 years every time I got angry or upset with what she was doing, I thought about the pain I caused her back than and tried to fix things. So, this is why I have a need to fix everything. Guilt from so long ago and the vow I made to never hurt her or let her hurt again. Not my job, I know. Stupid, I know but it's been a part of me for a long time and has been hard to overcome.
Had something happen last night and would like any thoughts.
We are very low on funds right now and I have told my wife this over and over again. Last night my daughter wanted to order a dress for graduation. I had told her a few days before that she needed to wait as we had bills to pay that couldn't wait. Instead, as kids are want to do, she went to her mom who told her to go ahead. I tried to tell her that we just should wait but my wife insisted that we do it now, no matter what I said. She ended up ordering the dress. Now, my wife will not take over paying the bills, has a serect bank account but refuses to listen when I tell her we just can't afford something she wants!
I tried to not get upset when she wouldn't listen but when I knew I was getting upset, I left the room. While I was in the other room I began to think about my business and the need to start making more money as it seems that I'll never get my wife to stop just spending money and blaming me if things get out of hand. At one point I was thinking about a meeting I had at work and said, out loud, "No one listens to me!" (talking to myself). I was thinking at the time about my business but my wife had come into the other room without me knowing and asked what I meant by that. I told her nicely that it was just something at work and I didn't know she was there. Her reply was "I don't believe you! What did you mean." My first thought was to let her have it! Here is this person who is screwing up my life, my finances and acting like a 15 year old saying she didn't believe ME? Thankfully I stopped myself and just said "I really don't care what you believe" and went about my business. Her reply was "Fine, whatever" and she left the room.
This is the secound time in the last week she accused me of lying when I wasn't. One of our big fights at the start of this mess was when I told her in one of our R talks that she was always saying that I was lying.(this started post Bomb-Day) Her reply was "I just said I don't think you were telling the truth. I never said you were lying". Uh? What is the difference? This was before I knew about MLC and now I know she doesn't even know what the heck she is saying or thinking or even if she is making sense, all she knows is this is how she "feels" at this moment and everything past and present is filtered through how she is feeling at that moment in time. If she feels "bad", everything has always been bad every min. of every day we have been together. If she feels good, it's because she is asserting herself and she feels good because of that. Nothing I did.
How do I handle things when, if I am doing something different or trying to GAL, instead of her accepting that this is me now, she decides to think I'm lying or manipulating. In the past I do know she could read me and how I was feeling or what I was thinking. Since I never had a reason to lie to her the few times I did (which was never for any "bad" reasons, I'm talking little white lies of which there were VERY few)she probably could tell if I was less than truthful. Now that I'm making an effort to be happy, GAL, never get angry, do my own thing, she is thinking "That's not him. He's lying about that" when all I'm doing is trying to DB? Any thoughts?
Hiya, Matt!
The MLCer HATES, HATES to be told what to do. Even if you know your family's financial reality does have an impact on the family's spending patterns. So you telling W to "wait" on certain expenses after the bills are paid is to lecture her...that is how it is in her MLC mind.
You may want to try to have a financial spreadhseet that shows flow of incoming income and outgoing expenses to show W. Then again, it's NO GUARANTEE that she'll listen to you. It is because of this behavior pattern in MLCer that we all encourage the LBS to set up a separate account to protect your financial interests...that means separate credit card accounts, bank accounts, and whatnot. We've seen the MLCers around this board spend money like there's no tomorrow and flows out of the bank account(s) like water.
Don't worry or take personally what W tells you. It will change maybe 50 times a week. That is the crazymaking that the MLCer will do that drives the LBS batshit. Detach.
Continue focusing on yourself. Do things that you LIKE and ENJOY doing....hobbies, interests, and activities. Act like you two are housemates living in different spheres.
If she says you're lying or whatnot, just say:
I am sorry you feel this way. I am going to continue doing what I enjoy. If this bothers you, you will need to figure this out yourself. Keep going on your own GAL activities. If you keep looking backward, you're bound to hit the tree head on. Wouldn't want that, do you?
Thanks Wonka,
Yesterday I found out that because my wife HAD to go see her dad in Fla last month, taking off work and spending money we didn't have, she used up her vacation time. Problem is she KNEW she was taking a week off from 3/31 to 4/4 to go on a class trip with our youngest daughter which means no income as my business is one where I don't get paid regularly. She didn't tell me this until she left and she said to be ready for no income NEXT week. I paid the bills as best I could, she spent money like we have so much more income than we do, and now I find out that it's THIS week she won't be getting paid for! Now, we have no money to live on until she gets paid again next week and when I say no money, I'm not sure we can afford gas for the cars because SHE told me the wrong info. Now, I know she has money in her secret bank account but she doesn't know I know about that. She wants to question me when I say we are low on funds (she says "I just got paid, where is that money?", It went to pay the bills!!)Now I'm going to have to try and find a way to get through this little crisis and she will just do the normal "blame me", I'm sure. I wish that I was just projecting but I know from past times this is what will happen.
When I started this business (before her B-Day) we talked and she knew it would be hard and I would need all the support (not just financial) I could from her. 3 months into it and she pulled the Bomb. Now, she tells me how she's angry at me for not making enough money. How it makes her mad because she knows we can't "trial separate" if we wanted. Here I see this person who is doing so many horrible things to me and her family, goes from saying how we'll be together forever and has no thoughts of leaving or divorce and 12 weeks later tells be she's unhappy, I'm unhappy and she wants a divorce and isn't interested in trying to fix our marriage, forgets to go to her daughters school meetings and instead goes out with her friends from work leaving me waiting and embarrassed when she doesn't show, is always telling me how wrong I am and pointing out all my faults (at one point about 6 months post B-day, I had been trying to change ME and address the things she said we're bothering her about me. When she couldn't think of anything I had said or done "wrong' she told me that she "hates the way (I) chew my food"! Now there is grounds for divorce and breaking up a 20 year marriage!), and she is telling me that I'm not good enough for her! I'm in better shape than I've been since I was 20 years old.(I'm 52, she's 47)The times we went out together to parties that her new work friends had and it went well, she said to me in an astonished voice "Everyone really likes you" like this was sooo weird because how could anyone like someone as awful as me? Blames me for everything bad that has ever happened, even saying "I know you didn't do anything to make ______ happen but I still know it's your fault. Every time things get better something ruins it!".
How in the world do us LBS'ers stay sane. Here is this person who I have dedicated my life to, knows me better than anyone else and she only see's the bad. How are we supposed to keep up our own self-esteem when the person who was our best friend and lover is always telling us and showing us how we aren't worthy of them....and they have such low self esteem and are always saying how they don't like themselves. If someone who feels so bad about themself doesn't think you're good enough for THEM, that can really be a hit to the old ego! I'm trying to GAL and detach and do things for me but like tonight I was supposed to go out to a wine bar for trivia night with a meetup group but now I don't think we can afford just buying a few drinks!
I can see reading what I just wrote that I'm venting a bit. I should know by now that I can't believe or count on anything she says (like it wouldn't be until next week she wouldn't get paid) and I have to just verify everything for myself. This money thing is a realitvely new thing since she got back from seeing her father. She trusted me until she went and opened her own account. Maybe she is projecting her feelings about doing something she knows is "wrong" and now thinks I'm doing what she is (hiding money)? Does no good to try and understand the why but I need to find a way to get through to her that she can't put me in charge of paying the bills and at the same time spend and take unpaid time off of work without warning much farther ahead of time. It would be easy with a "normal" thinking person but while she is so far in MLC, it's a huge undertaking and one that could, if handled the wrong way, end up putting us in front of a judge extremly fast. Especially when her father is pushing her in that direction!
Anyone have any ideas of a way to get her to understand things without her seeing it as controlling or stopping her from "finding her joy"?
Hello again everyone,
Yesterday I didn't end up going to my meet up group due to money issues. I helped W with picking up the kids as she had to work late (again) and when she got home we were talking and I mentioned maybe going out and where. Like in the past she seemed almost jealous. She seemed very unhappy about the fact that I met some nice people and had fun. Her words were sarcastic, her tone of voice was dismissive and the look on her face was very unhappy. Now, she's the one who told me that I need to go out and do things on my own without her. She goes out with her friends from work and that day went out to dinner (which we can't afford!) with one of her work friends (I think, she didn't say who), she has no interest in me in ANY romantic sense at all. Hell she won't even touch me or sleep in the same room! Why in the world would she be unhappy that I'm going out and doing things without her when this is exactly what she says she wants me to do and does herself?
I know, trying to make sense of an MLC mind, dumb! The part that bothers me the most I think is that she has been depressed and anxious for a long time. We worked through that at first then came B-day. In the months since, there have been times when I have seen things start to get so much better. We were doing things together, sure she would do things like tell me she didn't want me with her at her co. X-mass party and than come home and tell me about how crazy and out of character she acted and was proud of it! (After this she told me her friends from work who weren't there told her that they were told by other people in different dept's that they thought she must have been drinking, she was acting so "crazy", dancing with other men, etc. And, again, as she was telling HER HUSBAND this, she was PROUD that she was noticed!). But, she was still at least wearing her ring and sleeping in the same bed. Then she starts talking to her dad. He tells her that she needs to leave the kids with me and come visit him. That she needs to just leave me since things will just go back to the way they were if she tries. Suddendly she stops sleeping in the same room. Stops wearing her ring, opens her seceret bank account. It's like she was making her way out then daddy gets involved and back in she runs! Farther than ever!
Is it a bad or good thing that she seems to not like me going out and doing things on my own? I think that if she cares at all than she must still feel SOMETHING for me. Then again maybe she's projecting the way she's been acting when I'm not around on me but still what would it matter if she doesn't even want me in her life? I had an awful dream last night where I was with my daughters at her dad's place. We find this statute that looks like my W. Her dad just leaves and doesn't care. I try and find what this thing is and I open it up and it's empty inside. For some reason I expected to find my W inside and whole but there's nothing. My daughters start to cry because they know they lost their mother forever now and I feel powerless to do a thing! I feel like I let them down, her down and my FIL is just standing there laughing! I usually don't even remember my dreams but that one really got to me!
If my W really doesn't love me the way a wife should, really wants to leave and be on her own, doesn't want to even try, why the attitude about me going out without her? Is this normal? At this point I don't think she has an OM except her father (maybe in past, not sure)but she must want to find someone else, why else take off her ring? (When I asked she said "There are many reasons, one in particular but now isn't the time to talk about it") and that was 3 weeks ago and I haven't brought it up since nor has she. I did decide about a week after that I would take mine off as well. Part of trying to do a 180 as I've made sure she knows I will stick to my vows until the divorce was final and this seemed "out of character" for me and seemed like a good 180. Anyone have any ideas as why she is acting this way?
Matt,
You asked in the other post: Anyone have any ideas of a way to get her to understand things without her seeing it as controlling or stopping her from "finding her joy"?
You don't. Your W is acting like a rebellious teenager who wants to do whatever she wants.
You ask why W is acting upset with you going out. She is feeling miserable and depressed so she doesn't like the fact that you're out and about "enjoying" yourself. Keep going in that direction. You cannot worry about what W thinks or feels when you do go out. Right now, she's not your number one nor are you her number one. She's lost in the MLC fog.
MLCers don't want any hint of intimacy with the LBS. We are very adept in hugging the bed's edge when sleeping in the bed and not reaching out to the LBS for non-sexual touches. Sex with the LBS? Forget it!
had an awful dream last night where I was with my daughters at her dad's place. We find this statute that looks like my W. Her dad just leaves and doesn't care. I try and find what this thing is and I open it up and it's empty inside. For some reason I expected to find my W inside and whole but there's nothing. My daughters start to cry because they know they lost their mother forever now and I feel powerless to do a thing! I feel like I let them down, her down and my FIL is just standing there laughing!
This dream is telling you that FIL is sucking W's soul dry. He is not who he is. Seems to say that FIL isn't the cuddly guy that he tries to portray to W. Scary.
If my W really doesn't love me the way a wife should, really wants to leave and be on her own, doesn't want to even try, why the attitude about me going out without her? Is this normal?
Yes, unfortunately so. MLCers are very depressed and miserable. They don't like it when the LBS goes out to have fun because they want to pull you down so they'll feel better about themselves. Which is why you MUST detach from W's moods, actions, and comments.
why else take off her ring?
In her mind, you two are separated. She's mentally and emotionally checked out of the M at the moment. So this action reflects her mindset.
I did decide about a week after that I would take mine off as well. Part of trying to do a 180 as I've made sure she knows I will stick to my vows until the divorce was final and this seemed "out of character" for me and seemed like a good 180.
Ummm..those two statements are in direct conflict with one another. If you wish to stick to your vows, then removing your wedding ring isn't the way demonstrate it. Just curious why you took it off in the first place.
Anyone have any ideas as why she is acting this way?
At this point, she's very conflicted and confused. That's why all of this crazymaking is happening. When one's internally confused, they tend to say or do things externally that reflects that. It isn't about you, Matt. It is all on her and her inner demons from her childhood.
The ring thing was something I really wasn't sure about. On one hand for 10 months now I have stayed and supported W in every way, no matter what she said or did. Things got better than she comes back from her trip without her ring and smiled when I asked her why. I thought by taking mine off, I would show her I stopped fighting her. I actually miss wearing it. Only jewelry I've ever worn. Also, maybe a part of me wanted her think that there is a point to where I just won't stand back and take it anymore. Mostly first part, some 2nd.
Before she moved out of our bedroom this last time, she never touched me but would revive non-sexual back rubs from me when she was stressed badly. Now that has stopped. If she isn't wearing her ring, moved out of bed, I figured my touch is no longer welcome. I haven't asked her nor has she sent her old signals (she would never ask but would position herself in front of me in a way that told me "I want a back rub!"). Again, this stopped when dad entered the picture. One reason I haven't even attempted to do this is because I don't want to be seen as chasing her. Should I make an attempt to see if this would be welcome?
Matt,
If wearing your ring is what you want, then do it. It is for YOU. You cannot do things to get a reaction from W. Doesn't work at all.
As for giving W back rubs, I am thinking that one's a no-go. She isn't interested in them at all as evidenced by her pulling back and other actions.
From now and on, you'll have to view and treat W as a housemate who comes and goes. You will do the same too. Take care of yourself.
When I asked she said "There are many reasons, one in particular but now isn't the time to talk about it") and that was 3 weeks ago and I haven't brought it up since nor has she.
So, maybe it is time to ask her as a follow up? If she doesn't tell you, you are no worse off than today right?
Also, I understand the temptation to lay this all at your FIL's feet, and he does sound like a true grade-A scumbag, that is for sure. BUT...if your W was otherwise happy in her marriage, would she have fallen for his line? It sounds to me like you had some serious issues before, and she was already primed for the idea he presented?
Also, just saying, but it looks to me like the FIL is an easy scapegoat and the real issue is working on yourself to be the husband any woman would be a fool to leave. I am (was) a glass house resident, by the way, as I did the same thing when my W went through an MLC. She was obsessed with a trainer/actor, to the point she wanted us to move to his city, and all I could think about was that guy. I watched his twitter and FB for updates that my W would see, I snooped constantly, and generally drove myself nuts. As it turns out, none of that was too helpful (unless you are trying to become a sleep deprived lunatic, then it is extremely helpful). Focus on GAL and being the best father and husband you can be. Since she may not let you be the greatest husband, be the greatest father and person overall.
CB
PS - I love that you acted like an adult and didn't let your D go have sex for a summer. I was unbelievably appalled at what your W said.
We were always one of those couples that everyone knew I was dedicated to her and the kids. The trouble started when W grandfather died (only stable male influence in her life after her dad left). At the same time her dad told her he wanted to "make up" for all the bad he had done but only if she left me as he thought she was wasting her life as a stay at home mom. When I went up a couple weeks later he had a dinner party for her and came to me before and said there was no room for me or our 7 year old and we shouldn't "bother" them at their party. There were a dozen people and the only ones he excluded were me and his granddaughter! That was almost 8 years ago. He has been pushing her to leave me and her kids since and now that my wife is in MLC she is listening. The reason she got depressed was him telling her ( she was diagnosed a couple months after getting back from GF fruneral).
The reason she gave me for wanting out of marriage was something that happened 20 years ago! After a few days that went away and it was because she doesn't love me the "right" way. Even she admits I've been an excellent husband and father. She just "can't help" she doesn't love me the proper way!
I know I wasn't perfect but I was a very good husband. Too good actually as I became too much Mr Nice Guy. That is my biggest crime as a husband. My wife is going thru this MLC because of the crap her dad put her and her mom thru after the divorce. She has had trust issues ever since and tested me hard before we were married. So while I wasn't perfect, I KNOW if her dad wasn't in the picture this wouldn't be happening.
Matt,
I am going to be real gentle here.
So while I wasn't perfect, I KNOW if her dad wasn't in the picture this wouldn't be happening.This isn't the case at all. I should know because I am a reformed MLCer. Please disabuse yourself of ^^^ that notion, honey.
It would have happened regardless. It HAD to happen anyway. Most people who are in MLC have had a very traumatic loss in their lives: loss of a parent, best friend, family member, or some such close connection. That causes them to lose any sense of balance and that knocks out all of their circuits. Off they go in their own space ship!
I am not saying that every person who experiences loss GOES through MLC. Wanted to be clear on this one.
The MLC crisis brings up many, many unresolved issues in a person's childhood or youth. It will take a long, long time for them to work through their chit. My MLC lasted for 5 years. I am one of the few lucky ones who somehow got through it and the added bonus is I've learned even MORE through DBing.
Here's a link on the Onset of MLC that you would want to read up a bit:
Informal Poll: Onset of MLC
Here's another good resource you would want to read up here: HeartBlessings' thread on the LBS Journey. She just posted in this thread today after being away for a long, long time. WTG, girl!
The LBS Journey
After reading up on MLC I can tell you that two traumatic events from W's childhood most likely caused this....sexual abuse at a very young age from male babysitter and her father leaving when she was 10. The way he left was Unbelieveably bad, the way he treated her was God awful. Part of the story is posted in earlier post. He left his kids 10 and 7 and her mom 1000 miles from home while on vacation with a sail boat and camper after his OW called. When they got back he had moved out of state and put the business in OW name. He drug the divorce over 10 years until both kids were over 18 and never paid a penny in child support. The only thing her mom got was the family home. He married the OW a year after divorce was final and didn't bother to tell my wife let alone invite her to the wedding. Her grandfather had to tell her because he thought it was wrong of his son not to. Before this he refused to pay for college as was in D decree, when he let my wife live outside in an unheated camper in the winter while she went to college, he through her out with no place to go because his GF didn't like that her mom called once a week. He puts her down and says awful things to her like now embarrassed he was to talk to his friends about her when she was a stay at home mother because all he could do was say she "doesn't do anything". All the time my wife would say "as long as he's still alive, there's hope we can have a relationship some day".
When she went back to work she was still not over her depression. She threw herself into her work and the people there because she wanted so badly to be a part of the group of women she works with, most of whom are younger and divorced. To fit in she did everything with them, neglected her kids and marriage. For my part, instead of reacting the way I wanted and should have, I was still reeling from the 3 years of depression she went through before going back to work and I tried to be nice. Tried to show her I was there when she wanted to come back and would always take care of her. In other words I wimped out to the max. She needed me tone firm and I just complained, still did everything she should have been doing and lost myself!
That is how we got here. I was the kind of husband most women would be crazy to leave (God knows that's what her friends and family have been telling her, other than her dad) but the combo of her dad now accepting her wanting to take her to Europe and Austrailia as long as she leaves me, has her unable to work through the biggest childhood problem she has, her father abandoning her! As long as he is telling her he will be the dad she always wanted, she doesn't have to face that demon. All will be better as soon as she does what he wants. Never mind he will end up hurting her again for sure once she does what he wants!
Hi Matt, I just wanted to add my 2 cents to the excellent advice you have been receiving. I hope you find it helpful.
It doesn't matter how great of a H you were, or are. W's perspective right now is that you are not. That's reality for her, and you'll be spinning your wheels until you accept it. You can't convince her otherwise, so please don't try.
I can tell by your posts that you want so badly to fix this. This is understandable (I did too) but you can't. It's just not possible. The best you can hope for right now is to not make things worse! I know, not what you want to hear, right?
There is hope, and things can get better, but...
She has to figure her way through this on her own, you can't help. The more you try, the more she will pull away and consider you the problem. Or worse, the enemy. Give her space and time.
Like everyone has advised you, just work on yourself. Build a happy life for yourself in this new reality. It's actually kinda fun once you get going.
"It doesn't matter how great of a H you were, or are. W's perspective right now is that you are not. That's reality for her, and you'll be spinning your wheels until you accept it. You can't convince her otherwise, so please don't try."
I'd like to clarify this statement. No conversation you have with W will change her present perception. Pleading your case will cause her to dig in.
But over time, your consistent actions can have an effect. This is why you work on yourself. She will notice in time.
Also, I see like my W, your's claims she doesn't have those "in love" feelings for you. This will take even longer to return. No quick fixes for this. Bust On!
At the start of all this, I tried so hard to "fix" things. I stopped doing the things that my wife told me bothered her about me. At one time she said she was afraid that if we stayed together her life would be "boring". I took her and the kids to do fun things, all that did was make her change why she had to leave. Back in Dec of last year we had a fight about her going to her company X-mass parties without me. That was when she said she loves me but there are many "kinds" of love. That she needed to "find her joy" and couldn't do that with me around. That was when I STOPPED trying to fix anything and just give her time, space and support (like taking care of the kids so she could go away, helping her do things that she was having trouble with, etc.) but not chasing her, not asking her to not do something or do anything.
Since then things have actually gotten WORSE. She left the bedroom, she took off her ring, she opened a secret bank account. So, although that is what everyone keeps telling me I need to do, all it seems to be doing so far is make things worse. I'll admit that trying to fix things wasn't working well but it seems the more "space" I give her, the more she wants to run! I know I need to GAL for me. That is what I'm trying to do. But it not only doesn't seem to be helping my marriage, it seems to be making things worse!
Is this normal? Does the fact that the lbs is now getting their own life make it easier for the WAS to go? Maybe less guilt thinking that the LBS is going to be ok or maybe even better off without them? I know my W's low self esteem has much to do with her MLC. I know she feels better since losing so much weight but her LSE still rears up often when talking about herself. Someone told me that people with low self esteem sometimes feel that since someone loved them when they don't even like themselves that person must not be worthy or good enough for them when they start to feel better about themselves. Anyone have thoughts on that?
Thank you Forever! I appreciate your help more than you know!
Is this normal? Does the fact that the lbs is now getting their own life make it easier for the WAS to go? Maybe less guilt thinking that the LBS is going to be ok or maybe even better off without them? I know my W's low self esteem has much to do with her MLC. I know she feels better since losing so much weight but her LSE still rears up often when talking about herself.
Wow Matt, I struggled with all the same questions.
Yes, if she’s going to run away from the M she would prefer to see you “happy”. This does relieve her of some guilt for bailing on you. But here’s the catch… You don’t want her to stay because she feels guilty for hurting you, that’ll never work long term. People only “fall in love” (or in our case, fall back in love) with happy, confident people. You have to be one of those people to have a shot with her again. Besides, what’s the alternative? Not getting a life and being miserable?
My W too has been plagued with LSE. Often talked bad about herself, sometimes still does. Unfortunately, this is something they need to figure out on their own. It’s the only way it will ‘take’. One of the ways they work through this is by doing new things out of their comfort zone. Instead of attempting to put the kibosh on this, champion her for it! Be excited for her. Let her open up and tell you about her new activities.
The key, I think, is to acknowledge their LSE feelings, while letting them know we believe they have plenty of good traits. Keep it honest and specific. Don’t go overboard with compliments or she'll think it's fake, and just a trick to win her back.
Cadet likes to tell us that things will usually get worse before they get better. I always cursed him for that, lol, but it’s often true. Find a way to accept this while still maintaining a meaningful life of your own, and your M might make it. The way I see it this is our best shot.
Someone told me that people with low self esteem sometimes feel that since someone loved them when they don't even like themselves that person must not be worthy or good enough for them when they start to feel better about themselves.
I’m making myself the best person I can be, so I don’t worry about W thinking I’m not good enough because I loved her when she didn’t love herself. I think they secretly like that we stuck by them, (as long as we do it right) even if they won’t admit it.
Hi Forever.
You know, when we first started all the initial R talks post B-day, my wife said one of my best qualities was how she knows, no matter what, I would always love her and care about her. The examples she gave were a bit odd, like if she gained lots of weight when she knows its never been about how she looks or how much she weighed in the 25 years we've been together. Another was if she were to get sick and be unable to care for herself, I would still love and care for her. But of course she added that wasn't enough because she didn't want to stay with me just because of that without "feeling" the "right kind" of love.
I really think that one thing that hurts is that when her parents divorced her mom held on for way too long. She never dated, and now is 70 and lives alone while her dad ended up marrying the OW and sailing around the world with her on the money he cheated her mom out of. She see's her mom, the one who tried to save the marriage, as the "loser" and her dad who would go to C and just ignore everything and read magazines, as the "winner". He has his wife, a fun life and her mom has nothing. So, in her mind the person who "tries" and hangs on is the "loser".
I don't want her to stay out of guilt, of course. But I also don't understand why she can't see the changes and see me the way she did in the past. If I had hurt her, been an awful husband and father I could understand so much better. But to hate me for wanting to have a great marriage is just so weird to my way of thinking!
Thanks for the input, Forever. We both have much to do and learn!
Very bad day. W wants to talk, first about daughter school and how we can't afford putting her in private school since she has decided to leave me as soon as school is over. Never mind I can't afford her going or her a place to live. How we must be thinking how to do this in a way that least effects the kids.
How she leaving because she is so unhappy and must change her life. That she isn't in love with me. That she needs to be in control and hasn't been happy since we got married. "It wasn't all bad but nothing is all bad". How she doesn't have anyone else and doesn't think she ever will. She feels trapped. She doesn't have her own place. Knows I'm not doing "bad" things but is afraid I will because she can't get over what happened 20 years ago. That she had 2nd thoughts before she got married but "just wanted to be married". She needs to try being on her own and the reason she's unhappy isn't from her childhood, it's just that we don't belong together. She doesn't want me to find someone new but wants me to be happy. Thinks she will never find anyone because she is to afraid of meeting new people (bullshit)!
Apparently she read something I wrote when I was upset a few months ago and misread everything (I don't know what she was talking about but I know I never wrote anything she said I did. Her MLC mind interpreted what I wrote a certain way.
I didn't handle it perfect but not as bad as I could have. While she doesn't think she will ever come back to the marriage, she's not in a hurry to divorce. I asked her why she was unhappy. She said because she feels out of control. Trapped. It's not my fault but than tells me how it is. How her dad has "owned up" to all he did but doesn't "remember" him saying and doing all he has for the last 7 years to break us up. How he wants to see her "grow" but is also supportive of her being a wife. (Total lie). I told her I knew about the bank account but than gets mad saying I was spying on her.
She just thinks our marriage is crap. Always was. If she were ever to come back she would need to do it slow. She thinks the kids don't have any idea what she is doing and of course they do! It all ended badly when she contradicted herself as to why she's unhappy and accusing me of "twisting her words".
The kids will be fine as it wasn't her parents getting divorced that was bad. It was the way they behaved. Her dad is now the victim. In the past he just was a bastard, now it was too "hurtful" for him to be part of his life. All this because her dad is rewriting the past and she wants it to be true! Doesn't explain why he didn't bother to tell her be was married again but I'm sure he now blames that on his "pain" as well.
She started by saying how depressed she was and by the end was saying she's no longer depressed, it's just me. She said we don't do anything and when I told her I tried to do things she said she knows but she gets "tired" when she's with me but not when she does things with other people! What the hell does that mean?
I'm trying to keep my cool but it's not easy. I wanted to get all she said down right away before I forgot any part. She is just bound And determined to leave and I can't stop her. No matter how good a husband I am since she would rather be a cat lady than stay with me since I make her so unhappy.
Someone please help me figure this out. I had thought things were getting out of replay but now I don't think so!
I am so fracing angry at my wife! She is so screwed up that she actually said she knows it will hurt the kids but "people do many things to hurt their kids". Who is this bitch? Who is this worthless, selfish, amoral, valueless person? Where is the person I married and who lived with me for so many years? How is she going to get out of the tunnel when the biggest part of her past she needs to face is how badly her dad treated her and now he is saying all the things she wants to hear but for his iwn selfish reasons? Her trust issues have been a big part of her problems all her life. Trust issues brought about because of what her dad did. Now she can't even remember the ugly things he said to her, about her how he has tried to get her to leave! It's like none of it ever happened.
How bad is it that the OM is her own father. How bad is it that the only things she can say I did are from 20 years ago! Not one thing she can point to and say "you were a bad husband because you did _____.! No, it's just that she doesn't feel romantic love towards me anymore. Doesn't like that I'm on medication for my inability to sleep (due to her). I was diagnosed with low testosterone a few months before B-Day and now she says she doesn't like me taking replacement! Why? At least I don't need anti depression meds like she does! What the hell do you say to someone other than its not our marriage or me and she AGREES saying she just needs to be in control of her life. Than 5 min later says she hasn't ever loved me the whole time we've been married!
After this she asks me to watch a Disney movie with her and our 14 year old daughter and gets choked up at the romantic parts! Acts all happy towards me. Talks friendly to me knowing at this point I would like to kill her! She seems to enjoy my pain. She knows our daughter is counting on going to private school like she has all her life and we did for her sister and now it's more important that she save for retirement! When I told her I made enough for both the girls to be in private school and I'll find a way she started up with how I'm 52 (she's 47) and I should be saving towards retirement, like her. Does she not know that 1/2 that retirement is mine? How can she be so Unbelieveably nieve about what divorce really means? Her dad got away with hiding all his assets in his divorce but to do that he gave up access to his kids.
Is it wrong of me to want to make it as hard as possible for her. Not so she stays, God knows I don't want her like she is but because I actually want her to hurt the way she is hurting me and her kids. She really thinks they will get over it as long as the two of us are nice to each other like the fact that they are going to be ripped out of the family they thought they would always have because she wants what she wants will just be a bump in the road as she will be a much better parent because she will be happy!
I want to get away from her and leave but I am afraid of what I might do if I'm out on my own right now. Damn, I hate this feeling. I was trying so hard and now I'm back to the anger stage. Ugg! I can't wait to hear what she tells her moms family when she goes. They love me, her mom told her sister's family but my W doesn't know that. They have talked to me and cried saying they don't understand why she is doing this and for her part, my wife has kept it hidden from them. She tells me she hasn't said a bad word about me to anyone (but her dad) and never would because there's nothing to say except what happened 20 years ago and when they ask if I've ever given her a reason to doubt me since she can't say yes!
None of this makes sense in my mind. How can she keep hanging this on an event that happened so long ago that while bad, I've done nothing but prove it was in the past and never would happen again. Hell, I'm repeating myself. Sorry everyone. Just hurting.
Hang in there. It's not you. She's just literally crazy right now. If you think of it as a disease, maybe that will help you have some compassion. Not that I'm excusing her at all. Just trying to depersonalize it so it makes it a bit easier to deal with maybe. A lot of folks here are going through something similar. You are not alone and we are with you.
The best way I have found to deal with H midlife crisis is that he is sick. The marriage vow is in sickness and health. Unfortunately we here at MLC have to deal with both sickness and health throughout our M. Come here and read and post often - believe me it does help. The people here are so knowledgeable and friendly.
Thank you for replying. After I calmed down my W came in our bedroom(never does this with me there except for a few sec. ) and lie down next to me to watch a movie I was watching. After it was over she lay as close to me as possible and did the same thing she always has done if she wanted a back rub. I turned toward her put my hand on her back and said "All I've ever done is try to be the best husband I could. I'm sorry you're so unhappy" and rubbed her back. She said "you don't have to change for me". Talk about a non-sequtor! Here she hasn't touched me or let me touch her for months, she says all those awfull things and now does this? I do think you're right, she is crazy.
That doesn't help when I know she is leaving in a very few weeks now. Doesn't care about whether the kids stay with her and I really don't think they will. Fits her new life style better! The crap about the 20 years ago stuff is the worst. It's like she was hanging her hat on that. And when I said I've stood by her during some bad times SHE was going thru because I took my vows seriously, just like she said she did and always would, she tells me she did too. What the heck is the past tense? God, I see how crazy she is. I feel compassion for her pain but at the same time here is a 47 year old woman with degree and a high level job in the medical field and she can say and do things like she does and feels "empowered" doing them. If she were just all around bat-@&"$ crazy that would be easier to take. Instead she singles out the people closest to her, the people who she should be the most grateful to have in her life and blame us for everything that ever went wrong, every bad decision THEY made is now somehow YOUR fault. The things that were most important no longer matter (like saying "We all hurt our kids, they'll get over it") and they can't see how they would have been appalled if someone they knew said the things they do or did the things they're doing just a year ago!
Why can't they see they are a walking joke and we, the people who loved them and took care of them and shared ourselves with them are the punch line. Everyone sees it. The weight loss, the clothes, the hanging out with people much younger and doing stupid things like get too drunk to drive home when she went to her bosses friends batchaloette party. All the others there were 20 years younger than her and she gets so wasted they have to take her back to their rental early and she thinks she made "new friends" when they were probably laughing at the old lady who can't hold her alcohol! Like everyone at her work telling her she was acting so crazy that they thought she was drinking at her company X-mass party and she was PROUD of herself because she was noticed!
Why does she want so badly to be alone and in control and yet refuses to do anything NOW that might give her some sense of control (like take over paying the bills because she can't understand where all our money goes). When I asked her why she waited until the company I worked for for 10 years went out of business and after we talked about it decided TOGETHER that I would start a new business but it would take a long time to make money. Lied to me saying she had NO THOUGHTS of leaving her marriage and let me get a vasectomy. She said because I kept asking her why she wouldn't do things together, why she was acting like she was towards me and I kept telling her I wanted us to have a better marriage and she wasn't going to lie to me. I asked and she was going to tell me truthfully how she felt. The problem is if she felt that way why lie and let me get an operation I didn't want and never would have if she had been truthful. To that I got the old "I changed my mind and I can't help that"! People don't just change their minds in 12 weeks time about things as important as that! How can't she see now crazy that sounds!
Until now she like me didn't believe in divorce. When I asked her about that she said "We always made exceptions like abuse or drug use so it wasn't totally out of the picture". I guess now I know why she keeps bringing up 20 years ago. Yes, when I was depressed and stupid and a different person 20 years ago, I messed up. Since than I have done nothing and have never once done it again. After my first child I changed even more and the thought of doing something like that is so far out of my character. But it allows her to rationalize her doing this. It allows her to say she isn't doing something she swore she would never do if she can somehow use something that happened so long ago as justification for her actions.
The thing is this was what she was saying when all this started. When we talked and I pointed out that there was no reason for her to think I would ever do something like that again, she dropped that as a reason and started saying something else. We went through weeks of her saying it was because of this or that and when none of those gels water it became how she doesn't love me the right way and she needs to find her joy. Why is she back saying this crap that she stopped saying 9 months ago! Is this part of the stages? Is there a stage where they go back to old reasons that appeared to have been gotten past ages ago? How do you expect to ever make anything better when issues you thought we were past, that they themselves said make no sense and really weren't the real reasons come rearing back again?
Anyone who knows if it is normal to get past the original issues, the MCL goes back like it was fresh and didn't drop those issues long ago? Why my wife would say the mean awful things she did and then lay next to me and accept my loving (non-sexual) touch an hour later when she has been avoiding my touch for months? Especially after just telling me she's leaving and is 90% sure we will never get back together again? Why she is being nicer than ever (although a very fake nice!). Please somebody tell me this is normal MLC behavior. I'm so angry at her right now! I was ok holding onto she is going through a hard time, working through her issues, now I can see not only has she not been working trough them she is back to making up the same old stories she stopped saying long ago. It makes me think not only hasn't she made progress, she is moving backwards since her trip to see dad!
Matt, you are trying to analyze her crises with a logical mind. Stop that, you will drive yourself nuts!
She is in pain and searching for ways to fix it. She doesn’t know what she wants, except for the pain to go away. She’s having major life regrets, and sees time running out to fix it. So expect her to bounce around as she attempts to find answers.
Be the steady rock in her life. The one who confidently took care of himself and his family. Now’s your chance to live a more meaningful life of purpose. Do this and she WILL notice.
Your job is to show her you understand she’s in pain and believe she will get through this difficult period in her life. If you REALLY LISTEN to her, and support her, she is more likely to not run from you.
She loved you for all those years, and at some level still does. Let go and allow her to do what she needs to do to figure herself out.
I know it’s difficult, but please don’t take her rejection of you personally. She’s really not doing this TO you, she’s doing it FOR her.
Watching her spin is a waste of your time. Focus on more on yourself and you will find it gets easier.
Thanks Forever.
To hear her say she read something I wrote but then describe me saying things I've never even thought, let alone would write and instead of saying something to me just got angry and stayed that way for months really upset me. Here I am trying my best to give her space, be nice even in the face of her awful behavior and she not only projects these things onto me but uses it to feel justified in even worse behavior. All the hard work I've been doing for months and here she decides to ascribe all these awful thoughts about her to me. It was a blow!
She says she's in pain but is just going to "try" being on her own as a way to be happy. Why is that going to make her happy? Yes, I know logical thinking! This is so hard because I've been trying so dang hard to do the right things and all this time she was judging me from one thing she read and read things into it that weren't even there!
She doesn't want me talking to my kids but they aren't stupid and know things aren't right. She thinks by telling our 14 year old she isn't sleeping in our bedroom because I snore is fooling her! They too are in pain. They too see what she is doing and are hurt by it. Does she really think just not saying anything and pretending all is well the one day we sit them down and tell them mom is moving away is a better way to go?
I want to not be angry. I want to see her as someone in pain but she makes it so hard by denying the truth, changing history and using events from 20 years ago that she knows still shame me makes that so hard!
Thank you for responding. I needed to hear a calm voice get back to me! Many thanks!
Matt
Trying to make sense of “why she is”, “what she is doing”, “what might she be thinking”…is pointless.
As forever young has mentioned…now is the time that YOU need to work on YOU.
She may notice, she may not – personally, I have no idea. What I do know is that working on YOU and finding YOUR happiness amongst this will be the greatest gift that YOU give yourself.
Matt, IMO, you are still in shock. You are trying to rational her behavior, her words.
Every actions you take is based on HER.
In order to get through this, you need to separate your ACTIONS from HER actions/words/behavior. You need to really focus on just YOU.
The person that you were married too has been beamed up to a different planet. It no longer is about YOU, the kids and her. Nope. It is all about HER. HER needs, HER wants.
You need to change your mind set and make things about YOU.
What does Matt want to do?
Who does Matt want to be?
Here I am trying my best to give her space, be nice even in the face of her awful behavior and she not only projects these things onto me but uses it to feel justified in even worse behavior. All the hard work I've been doing for months and here she decides to ascribe all these awful thoughts about her to me. It was a blow!
Space and “being nice” are two different things. No one said you needed to be “nice”. Civil works too.
I want to not be angry. I want to see her as someone in pain but she makes it so hard by denying the truth, changing history and using events from 20 years ago that she knows still shame me makes that so hard!
Stop looking at HER. Stop looking at everything she does. If you start living your life for YOU and the kids…she just may wake up and realize what she is missing.
Matt,
I am so sorry to read this update. Yep, it isn't fun at all.
This isn't about you at all. I know you think we're talking nonsense to you here. But believe us when we tell you that it is NEVER about you at all. Yes, W has said really hurtful things to you about the M. It is the confusion that's talking, not W.
For the MLCer, it is confusing to wonder why we're so unhappy so we are spinning around looking for somebody to blame. Who else but the person closest to us? The spouse. We all live in a tangible world so we are floundering around trying to pinpoint the reason for our unhappiness and depression. In their mind, the depression is really heavy and the PRESSURE immense so we feel the STRONG urge/need to get outta there fast!
We want you outta our face! Get the f*ck outta our way. That is our mindset in MLC. It will take a long, long time for the MLCer to work through their chit. We zig zag all over the place because we are so damned confused and fearful all the time. There were a few times when I hugged Ms. Wonka during my MLC and I am sure I confused her big time with my actions/antics.
It is not you, honey.
The best you can do in this situation is to detach and GAL. You might want to take your kids out more often such as going to the movies or the arcade. Get busy living instead of standing still staring at your W. Does nobody any good at all.
Thanks Eric. Funny thing is, that's exactly what I was trying to do and I do believe, as you said, she noticed. I didn't start this talk on Saturday, she did. She started it by saying how we need to figure out what we are going to do about our daughters school next year as she has decided that she is going to leave as soon as they are out of school for the summer. She wants us to tell our daughter who is doing great in the school she is in that she can't go to the school that we sent her sister to because as she will have to pay a mortgage, we won't be able to afford it.When I told her I was able to keep both of the girls in private school for years when she wasn't working and I'll be damned if I let this decision on her part stop me from doing all I can to keep her in when we only have a few more years left, she told me that even if I did start making enough I should "..save for retirement" since I'm so much older than her! (She is 47, I'm 52! She has done this a few times now telling me that I'm so much older than she is but were only 4.5 years apart in age!)
Now, this is something, again, that we discussed when she first dropped the bomb. Back then she was saying that our daughter would be "better off" in public school but as time went on, that stopped and she agreed that she is better off at the private school. Now, she is back to the same stuff she was saying back then.
The only positives I can take from the talk were these...I told her that I know that she will be able to take care of herself if she decides to go. She said that I told her that I didn't think she could (again, something I said on B-day when I was shocked and hurt). I now know why she suddenly got cold, left our bedroom and took off her ring (because of something she read that I wrote and read stuff into that I never felt and never would). I stopped myself from trying to say things she would see as trying to "fix" her. When I wanted to say something like that I stopped myself and said "It's not me, it's not our marriage". She even said "That's all you can say? You keep saying that!". When I wanted to say until you work through the real causes and stop trying to blame our marriage and me, you're going to stay stuck in your tunnel!She stated that she see's me GAL'ing and that she feels I will be fine without her. When I asked if she wants me to find someone else, she got quiet, said it freaks her out to think of me with someone else and added in a way that told me she really doesn't feel this way that she does want me to be happy. This is when she said "Maybe once I go you'll find out you are better off and happier without me." At least she see's that she may be part of the problem with our marriage.
She was making progress but whatever it was she read knocked her right back into angry replay and part of me is angry at myself for not being more careful although I know most of what she read into it couldn't have been there as I never thought or felt most of the stuff she said she saw. I really think as the day for her to actually leave gets nearer, I feel like I'm running out of time when part of me knows that she may just NEED to leave before she can ever face the truth as to why she is so "unhappy". Also, again last night she asked me to give her a back rub which tells me she is more relaxed around me probably due to her finally talking to me about the things that were bothering her and hearing me say that isn't the way I feel or ever felt, not really. She also probably thought I wasn't expecting her to leave once summer came and was nervous knowing that she wanted to go and having to tell me.
Yes, I know this is still trying to figure her out and not thinking about me and my life but we don't talk about the R often and it's been many months and I'm really trying to work out just what was said and if not why, what it can tell me about what's coming!
Again, thank you Eric!
Thanks Wonka.
I guess the hard part is that I know she is in pain and I WANT to help her. I want her to be happy again. I want to take the pressure off, which was why when she was first depressed I took over almost everything so she wouldn't feel any pressure. It's hard when she should know after 25 years together that I'm NOT the enemy!I know now that she doesn't see that because of the MLC but it doesn't stop the hurt seeing this person who you love go through this and blame you knowing all you've done is try as hard as possible to help them feel better.
When you see her be more comfortable around other people who don't really know her or care about her that hurts as well. When she says when she's with me she gets "tired" but not with her new friends, that hurts! When you see this person who is nice to everyone, who tries so hard to BE liked and she is smiling when she says some hurtful thing to you, that's hard.
You know I watched her burn out when we talked. She started at full steam and by the time we were finished, she was lying there unable to keep her eyes open!Her depression took over and she was totally wiped out within 20 min.'s! It's like the effort to think of why she is doing this, to come up with reasons was just too much. I have just a day before listened to her go on and on about something that happened at work, how she felt, how she handled it and never once slow down or get tired. When she talks about these issues she can't keep it up for long before the pressure hits her like a ton of bricks!
Any LBS who can stand while they have their and their families lives destroyed by the very person who you have sworn to stay with in sickness and in health is a hero! If only the MLC'er could see that what they are going through is a "sickness" (which my W did when she was first depressed)maybe they wouldn't be so quick to blame the very people who love them the most.
Thank you so much, I really needed to hear what you were saying right at this moment!
Matt,
It's hard when she should know after 25 years together that I'm NOT the enemy!
I am going to suggest that you drop shoulda, woulda, coulda...not helpful at all. She truly doesn't view it this way. She's too busy being wrapped up in her own chit to be rational here.
I know now that she doesn't see that because of the MLC but it doesn't stop the hurt seeing this person who you love go through this and blame you knowing all you've done is try as hard as possible to help them feel better.
We know that you have good intentions here. Actually, trying to be helpful or trying to help them "feel better" isn't any of your business. Stay in your own sandbox. Trying to get into W's sandbox will just make her more mad.
When you see her be more comfortable around other people who don't really know her or care about her that hurts as well. When she says when she's with me she gets "tired" but not with her new friends, that hurts! When you see this person who is nice to everyone, who tries so hard to BE liked and she is smiling when she says some hurtful thing to you, that's hard.
This is typical MLC behavior. We all wear masks when out in public and when we get back home...drop it at the floor. It is not you. It is very, very tiring trying to put on a show of pretense!
If only the MLC'er could see that what they are going through is a "sickness" (which my W did when she was first depressed)maybe they wouldn't be so quick to blame the very people who love them the most.
They don't. I didn't learn about my MLC until long after I've come on the DB forums and learned what the "formal label" was. Talk about eye-opener for me!
Generally speaking...people tend to lash out at the people closest to them: spouse and family. Why? Because they feel relatively "safe" to let down their guard to do so. I'm sure you've lashed out at W some times during one of your fights.
The only difference with MLC is that the lashing out tends to be intensely personal, blameshifting, and filled with rage that tends to be fairly "global." They're trying to bring you down to their level so they feel better about themselves.
One other thing I'd encourage you to do here is visit other threads and post in those that resonate with you. It is a great way to learn more about the MLC journey.
Matt
I’m not sure if anyone has ever said this to you Matt…I think that right now you need to practice STFU (shut the f*ck up). Your words are doing more damage than you think. You are not helping yourself with….
When I asked if she wants me to find someone else, she got quiet,
IMO, at the root of this statement is manipulation. You wanted to her to “see it”…”get it”…know that you are “serious” and that this is really starting to bother you. You wanted YOUR words to have an effect on HER ACTIONS. Look buddy, if you want to see someone else you do not need to ask her (or me or anyone else for that matter). Stop talking. Stop trying to convince her. Stop trying to manipulate her.
Decide for YOU want you want to do. Do you really want to stand for this M? If so, then STFU. If not, then fine.
She started it by saying how we need to figure out what we are going to do about our daughters school next year as she has decided that she is going to leave as soon as they are out of school for the summer.
You see this as her disrupting YOUR plan or YOUR daughters plans. She is not (at least probably not what/how she thinks of it). MLCers are totally selfish creatures. She is not DOING THIS TO YOU…she is doing this FOR HERSELF.
That said, she is sharing with your (at least on some level) her plans. Now you know she plans to leave, now you know she does not plan to pay for your daughters private school. Instead of LOOKING AT HER…you might want to consider taking the information that she has shared and figure out a PLAN FOR YOU.
When I told her I was able to keep both of the girls in private school for years when she wasn't working and I'll be damned if I let this decision on her part stop me from doing all I can to keep her in!
That’s fine that you “told her”. Do you really think that YOU “telling her” is going to stop her or change her behavior? IMO, it is not. So you can b*tch all you want, that is NOT going to help. What will help is YOU figuring out YOUR plan.
Back then she was saying that our daughter would be "better off" in public school but as time went on, that stopped and she agreed that she is better off at the private school. Now, she is back to the same stuff she was saying back then.
I see you are still trying to assign rational to her reasoning. She will vacillate, she will waver, she will do all sorts of chit cause she – NOT YOU – are in a crisis. Now the fact that she has lost her chit is NOT YOUR PROBLEM or YOUR FAULT.
ACCEPT…that she has been beamed up to lala land and start building YOUR PLANS.
She stated that she see's me GAL'ing and that she feels I will be fine without her.
You GAL for you. She is going to read into anything you say or do – hence, you should be DOING more and speaking less. That is not to say, that if she insults you that you need to sit quietly and tolerate it. No. You just do not need to have conversation with her.
This is when she said "Maybe once I go you'll find out you are better off and happier without me." At least she see's that she may be part of the problem with our marriage.
You see it as her “seeing” she is part of the problem – I see it a totally different way. I see it, as her feeling less guilty about her actions.
I'm really trying to work out just what was said and if not why, what it can tell me about what's coming!
As I mentioned above, IMO, she is telling you what is coming. Now you need to figure out what YOU are going to do.
I guess the hard part is that I know she is in pain and I WANT to help her.
I think you have two options to help her…
Option 1 – hand over all income, assets and assume all liabilities. Move out, continue to pay the mortgage, live in a box on the street, agree with everything she says and does.
Or
Option 2 – Accept that nothing you do will fix her, hand her over to God, pray from strength and forgiven and the ability to forgive, keep focused on you and the kids, and focus on being happy every day.
Love option 2, Eric. Great advice!
Actually I see where you are coming from Eric. The one thing I will say is I didn't ask if she wanted me to find someone else to manipulate but to see where her head was at. Believe me if I planned to do that I wouldn't have asked. I do see how asking this can be a powerful form of manipulation like saying "If you don't watch out, I'll do this!" But honestly that wasn't my intention. If she had said yes that would have told me much about how far she has pulled out of our marriage. Until now she has said that she wants to go not because I'm the devil that is stopping her from being happy at least not totally. Her biggest reason has been because she is in pain and she doesn't know how to make it stop and being on her own, totally in control of her entire life like before she was married may be the answer. She said she was never depressed back then so if she got depressed after she got married than the answer is to do what she did back then. The question was more to see if she had totally checked out emotionally.
Believe me when I tell you I know how to manipulate if needed. I did it enough when all this started. Also, this telling me what she plans on doing.... This is not the first time she has talked about actually leaving. The doing what she needs to do to make it happen is the part that slows things down. This time may be different but this is a cycle with her. What she plans one day usually lasts until she "feels" some new way.
Oh, and about STFU...... I haven't said one word to her concerning her plans or our R since Dec. this talk was her idea, not mine. If it had been up to me, I wouldn't have said a single word. Since our last talk she has gotten wasted and spent the night somewhere with people I don't know, opened a secret bank account with joint funds, gone away for weeks at a time several times leaving me stuck with having to find a way to take care of the kids, the house, the animals, the bills, EVERYTHING when I also need to try and make a living, taken her wedding ring off. Left the bedroom, well you get the idea and I didn't once "talk" to her about except to say "OK, it's your life". Being quiet with her really hasn't been a problem.
Not saying I didn't say too much or the wrong things this time and I appreciate you pointing that out. But I've held my tongue through some stormy times and really don't plan on using it often.
Matt,
Believe me when I tell you I know how to manipulate if needed. I did it enough when all this started..I hope you've stopped this altogether. Not an attractive quality.
Also, this telling me what she plans on doing.... This is not the first time she has talked about actually leaving. The doing what she needs to do to make it happen is the part that slows things down. This time may be different but this is a cycle with her. What she plans one day usually lasts until she "feels" some new way. The MLCer will zig zag all over the map. Which is why you cannot rationalize with Crazy. Why bother??!
Do you have any GAL activities planned for this week/weekend?
2nd try at reply. Didn't work first time for some reason!
Thanks Wonka. Yes, I know manipulation can be ugly! It was only when I was really hurt at the start just after B-day. In fact I felt awful when I did it. Just one of my mistakes at the start of this.
As for GAL activities I ended up just not doing anything this last weekend after the "talk" and wish I had done something. Unfortunately my wife used up all her vacation time going to visit her dad knowing she was going to DC with our daughter 2 weeks ago so we don't have any money. She didn't tell me until after I paid the bills and really messed up our finances so I really can't do anything unless its free. Looking for something like a hiking meetup group or something. My 18 year old daughters boyfriend just moved to a new place and I may go check it out with her. She also has her learners permit and I'm going to get her out on the road again this weekend.
Any ideas that you did when you were first GALing??
Me? I took up golfing after Ms. Wonka left. I looove it! Happiest person on a golf course anywhere.
Enjoy some special bonding time with your daughter, Matt. I have very fond memories of my late father teaching me how to drive a car.
Thanks Wonka. Fun and frightening at the same time!
W has been in one of her moods where she likes to get angry. We're watching TV and she'll make a comment or ask a question and then get angry if my answer includes ANY info she already knows. Like I'm trying to tell her something or trying to be "smarter" than her. Man, I know this isn't about me but sure can be frustrating! It's getting easier to ignore though. I think I'm finally getting to the point where I'm thinking she may have to leave us before she can start seeing our marriage isn't the thing that is causing her "unhappiness"!
I have a question for everyone out there..... Why is it the MLCer can remember every little thing we said when they first dropped the bomb (things we now regret saying) but can't remember ANY of the horrible things they've said and done to us since?
My W remembers me saying things that I no longer even believe to be true now that I've learned just what she is going through but can't remember the hateful thing she said to me 2 days ago! It's so darn frustrating! Ugg!
Hello out there in LBS land....
Something that has been bugging me for a long time keeps running thru my head and I was wondering what others take on it may be.
My W had an awful childhood. Dad left when she was just 10, little or no contact with him, mother very bitter and vented on her, she feels like she had to be the "adult" growing up because of the way her mom never got over the divorce. During our years together she was so anti-divorce. She would say how she would NEVER divorce unless there was abuse and only "weak" people would leave without trying everything to save their marriage.
Of course, all this changed when she dropped the bomb saying she had no intention of even trying to save the marriage. Look, I know people change, that's life. But it seems to me that people don't change their core values like that one as quickly and as completely as she did. Last time we "talked" she said it wasn't her parents divorce that hurt her so much but the way they acted after that caused all the problems. Her attitude nows seems to be that divorce isn't hurtful at all to the kids or if it is it's not SO bad. She can't see how she is already hurting her daughters and if she ever does she says "We all hurt our kids. She'll get over it. Besides, once I'm out and happy, I'll be a MUCH better mother!". Was her mom a much better mother when she was forced to be a single mom?
I swear she has this fantasy where, once we get divorced, she, me, the kids, any OP's that we end up with are all going to be great friends that do things together, spend the holidays together, tell funny stories about our past like some sit-com or Lifetime movie! She seriously thinks that she can rip my heart out, destroy all we have worked for for the last 20 years and force our youngest daughter to give up all her friends and go to public school for the first time in her life after we have always promised her that we would always do what we had to so she could go to private school, teach our girls that this is how adults deal with problems-they run away and dump the person they swore they would be with forever just because they aren't "happy" and I'll even want to be "friends" with a person who betrayed me like that? Seriously?
Since all this started the only person she has spoken to about it is her father. The man who has done the most God awful things to her, who was a serial cheater up until he abandoned her and her family. The man who has been telling her for the last several years that she needs to leave her marriage so she can go and do things with him (like go to Europe and Australia)so he can "make up" for all the bad things he did over the years and now she is rewriting her past history with him. This man has said and done some horrible things to her over the years that I saw with my own eyes. He never paid any child support (at one point he would have been arrested if he went back to the state that he had moved from with his OW), put all the marital assets into his girlfriends name in another state and drug the divorce out for 10 years until the kids were over 18 and screwed his wife out of everything but the house, well there's more but you get the idea, and now she is saying that the reason he didn't see her or even bother writing her a damn letter was because he was "too hurt"!
How is it she can rewrite our marriage where everything was bad but then rewrite her relationship with her father where now HE is a VICTIM! The first time I met this man I almost hit him because of the awful things he was saying about her right in front of her! Now my W is saying he was just "Joking" or "testing" me to see if I was "worthy" of her! She's 47 and she says the reason her dad doesn't like me is because "no one is good enough for his little girl". Wow, we've been married 20 years have raised 2 kids together and I'm not good enough for the little girl that he treated like she wasn't worth a phone call to him most of her life!
Her issues with trust that she has had her whole life go back to what her dad did to her. I really think that until she faces this issue head on, she'll never get through her MLC but how is she supposed to do that when he now is using her confusion to try and make himself feel better or part of me thinks that now that he is older and in bad health he knows he'll need someone to take care of him and the only person who he hasn't totally pushed out of his life is my W. Only because she lives so far away and didn't have enough contact with her to totally destroy any hope she had. His only son tried many times to make things right with him but he rejected him. My wife says because her brother didn't "grovel" enough to him! This is the man who she wants to take advice from on what she should do to be "happy"?
I'm just worried that because of her dad's interference and the fact that her past with him is probably a big part of what she needs to face up to to get through her MLC, she may never get through it while he is in the picture. Any thoughts?
Matt,
I think you know the answer already. Her desire, stemming from when she was 10 years old, to undo all the hurt and pain and "get back to normal" with her dad is stronger than her desire to be your W or the best mom to your kids. All MLCers have a different fog that has come over them, this is her fog. And there is nothing you can do to lift the fog. All you can do is be a bright light in the fog so that if it lifts, she sees you as the light. The tough thing is that you want to grab her by the collar and scream at her at how obvious this is and how foolish she is being, your friends and relatives and everyone else would scream the same thing at her (and maybe already are) but that will only add more fog.
She needs to get back to realizing that her D is a scumbag and this is not the path she wants. But for now, she seems like she is probably feeling happiness at the pain going away and doesn't want anything else to interfere with her "high". If you are the one that does before she is ready on her own, she will view you as an enemy.
It [censored] and your pain is obvious and devastating. As is your guilt over 20 years ago (to which I can relate over bad decisions I made at my bachelor party a month before my wedding and confessed to my W. You can use your imagination what went down by I still carry the burden of the guilt). None of what you are focused on with her dad will make that go away. Focus on your kids, yourself, and your new business. I couldn't sleep well during my W's MLC and would get up and work out at 4:30 or so. It was the only thing that really helped me feel better, and made me more calm for dealing with her and being a better dad (plus I lost 20 pounds that have now magically reappeared :)).
Sorry for what you are going through, it is awful.
CB
Matt,
I'm just worried that because of her dad's interference and the fact that her past with him is probably a big part of what she needs to face up to to get through her MLC, she may never get through it while he is in the picture. Any thoughts?She may or may not come out of MLC. Only time will tell. What are you going to do with the gift of time you've been given as Cadet points out when welcoming newbies to the board?
You wondered about the memory loss. Yep, part and parcel for the MLCer. Our memory is like Swiss cheese during MLC because of the stress and depression is making all our innards go haywire. I wouldn't put too much weight on what your W says as it changes each day or week by week.
Hope you have a good weekend! Make fun plans with D.
Thanks CB!
I always knew from the start that her dad was a problem, I just never believed she would buy his "I'm sorry" crap. Funny thing is I tried to stay out of the way as I hoped some day they could come to some kind of understanding, didn't think it would cost me my marriage that's for sure! Also, it's true that all her relatives on her mom's side DO tell her what a mistake it is to trust him. Her grandmother (up until she started to lose her mind recently) won't even say his name out loud. And you're right, it makes no difference to her at all.
You're right, I knew the answer but just wish it was different. God, what I would give to be able to go back in time and see that this was coming. Ahh, fantasyland!
Thanks Wonka and you're right, need to stay sharp and make sure I use my time wisely. Just gets frustrating at times!
Hi everyone. Not having much luck with GALing today. Wife has been cleaning out her closet of all the clothes that no longer fit her since she has lost 30 lbs. Also she now fits into dresses that she hasn't worn since 1993! Part of her getting ready to move out. Tomorrow is Easter and we are going to her Grandmothers along with her mom's family. She has been asking for my help and of course I can't seem to say no.
She was on call for work today and when 5:00 came and no call she figured she was off the hook. Well at 6:15 she gets the call and she gets so ANGRY! She ends up leaving the room and screaming to herself and having an imaginary conversation with her boss that called cursing her out. This is the same woman who she went out with a few weeks ago and ended up getting so drunk she had to stay the night and after was so happy because she made some "new friends". (All the other women there are a lot younger than her, including her boss).
So, of course she gets angry at ME and all I did was let her vent and validate her feelings. For the last few years her total energy has been her work. She spends her time at work or with her work friends and texts her work mates every night. Her job is her first priority (other than her dad. She refuses to take time off to vacation with me or the kids but will for him).
Hopefully she is begining to see how dangerous this is. Probably not but until she sees that work can't take the place of family, she'll never get out of her fog. Of course it's her dad that's been telling her that she needs to be a "professional" or see's not doing anything positive with her life. Only hope she's in a better mood when she gets back!
Why is it I still feel the need to help my WAS? Why is it I still care so much about someone who is treating me so badly and destroying my family?
My wife has lost so much weight that our daughters teacher asked her if she was ill. She fits into clothes from before we were married and all she can say is how "ugly" her thighs are! I am being totally honest when I say her thighs as close to perfect as possible in real life. Add that she is 47 years old and they are nearly a mericle. She has lost her butt, and is starting to look anorexic. Today she was upset and getting ready to go run and got angry at me for saying I thought her thighs were great. Then she looked in the mirror and because she has lost so much weight, her shoulders are bony and look broad because of that. She says "I think my shoulders are broader than yours".
Now I'm not bragging here so don't think badly of me, butt with all the exercise I've been doing since B-day, I'm in fantastic shape. Better than I've ever been in my life and I have very broad shoulders. A lot broader than here, that's certain. Why are they so obsessed with their looks? Why do they care more about this stuff than what they are doing to the people they love?
Another thing..... Since B-day she refuses to even think about going to church, even on Easter Sunday! It's like she avoids it with all she has. Of course, she wants me to go, alone and actually gets upset if I don't but she won't. I asked her once about this and she said she doesn't need to go to a church to "be with God". She said she listens to the birds singing in the AM and that is all she needs to be close to God. Why is it MLCers lose all their ties to God? Is it that that part of themselves is so ashamed of what they are doing they just can't face it? I see posts all the time where good, church going men and women end up having affairs and going crazy during their MLC and all of them seem to lose this grounding tie to God. Just food for thought.
Good and bad day on Easter....
Like many of you LBSers out there, yesterday was one of those days that both hurt and make you hope. I can't help but think that this is probably the last Easter I will spend with my family as a family, W included, maybe forever. We went to W's mom's and all her realatives were there (mine all live 1600 miles away since we moved 20 years ago). They all love me and while my W doesn't know that her Aunt, uncle and cousins all know about her plans to leave me, her mother told her sister and her sister told her daughter and so on down the line so while she still thinks she is hiding it all from them, they all know. The thing is they all can't understand what she is thinking. We always had one of those marriages where everyone thought things were so good. W's grandmother once said how lucky W was to have someone who so obviously loved me and would do anything for her.
They all mean well when they come to me alone and tell me how they love me and no matter what, I will always be part of the family and I will always be welcomed. If I didn't know that my W was leaving, you would never know it from the way she acted. She was friendly to me, took pictures, talked with me and in groups. the only things noticeable were how she sat as far from me as possible at dinner. Our oldest daughters boyfriend came and he is such a good kid and it's one of those days that my 14 year old D still acts like a kid hunting eggs with the youngsters. It was all so bitter sweet. On the way home everyone was laughing and happy and talking about the day while my W was busy posting pictures to Facebook, not one of which included me or even a mention of the fact that I was there! She got all excited by all the people who "liked" her pictures. It's like she gets validated that she is a "good person" because these people showed an interest in her. Some of them are even my realitives (they don't know what's going on yet, only my parents do)how can she be so happy for attention from them knowing she is planning to leave me and do all the hurtful things she does.
There were times during the day that I almost forgot how I only have a few more weeks before my W goes out on her own to "find her joy", how she tells me that I'm the reason she is so unhappy and all she needs to do is get away from me and everything will get better. At one point she actually touched me, getting the confetti out of my hair and she looked at me the way she used to. These are good days but almost too good because as soon as we leave she goes right back to the person who blames me and her marriage for every bad feeling she has. It's almost like it gives me false hope. Anyone else experience this?
Than there is the way my W avoids going anywhere near a church. Now, for a few years now we haven't been an every Sunday family but she would never miss Easter and Christmas, now she gets angry if I suggest we go as a family even on Easter Sunday! What is that about? Is it guilt? Is it a way to push herself away from me? Her parents didn't go to church at all when she was young. She always wanted our kids and even herself to have more of this type of thing in her and their lives, now she runs the other way. I do know her father makes fun of church going people and wouldn't have even had her baptised if not for her mother. Another way to impress him?
I don't know, maybe the stress and pain is just getting to me more right now. Maybe I need to just accept that I had a bit of my old W back, even if just for a short time yesterday and be grateful for that. Stop thinking about why and just do what I need to do for ME but holidays like yesterday are hard.
Hye Matt,
Your latest post reminded me of my family's last significant outing.
We were separated in house last december and my w's cousin (who I am very close to) invited us to see an Olympic qualifying event for bobsledding. Awesome opportunity as I was full on in rescue mode and allowimg my MLC wife to call all the shots. She drove in a storm to the event and we had a great day. She and I interacted little, but we had a nice day and her cousin gave me some great encouragement as their r was bouncing back from a rocky stretch. They almost split, but they both worked at the problems and were in a much better place.
I now realize that we were not there. I had hoped that her interaction with her cousin's wife that day would lead to some sensibility and help get her to recommit to our family. Did not happen.
They are not in their right mind...I think they truly believe this is our fault, or at least there is no hope for change.
The hardest part is that now we know we need to change and why, but they are done...at least for now. I have started to tell friends and relatives who are concerned that I will be in a better relationship someday, either with current w or someone else.
You are a good person, one who cares for his family and wants to make things better. Doesn't always make sleeping at night easier (I still pop up at 2:30 every morning unless I go to bed at 12:30) but it is the truth- my truth and hopefully yours too...
Matt
I am do sorry. I had the same feeling that it is probably our last Easter. I don't know how many times I have heard I am divorcing you in the ladt six months. Everyone says he is bluffing, but he seems serious.
It is true everything is our fault in their minds. It seems like they ate projecting on us. I believed it was my fault until I was blamed for the bad childhood - I met him in our late 20s.
Yours is like mine where family knows and is on my side. They think my h is crazy. I used to get the mixed signals all the time. Now I get stay away from me and I am selfish.
I am do sorry and we all feel your pain. Come and post often. Keep your chin up, she is the one being a maroon
Thanks nyk and scooby.
How is it they can be so cold one min. and look to us the next when they want something for themselves? Tonight my W had to go help her mom with her grandmother who they just moved into an assisted living facilty. My wife is a therapist at a rehab and works with people going through what her GM is now. She sat and talked to me for an hour telling me all the details, then talked more about how she has meetings at work and what she thinks she needs to do and how the other women feel and on and on about her. Not once did she ask about me or my day or my work but was just going on and asking what I thought of this or that. How can she not understand that the world isn't just about her and her problems? I'm not allowed to touch her, am the cause for all her problems and the reason she's not only unhappy now but has been for "years" but here she is going on and on. So, who is she going to talk to when she leaves. When she gets what she wants and is "on her own" who is she going to tell about her day and ask advice from?
She is so all about her and even told me if we were ever to reconnet, chances are VERY slim but IF it ever were to happen, she would have to take it very slow. I guess because she see's the changes but is so invested in ME being the cause of her problems she has convinced herself I must be faking being a caring husband even after she has told me she is leaving that she has to protect HERSELF from ME! Some nerve there from the woman who told me that "everyone hurts their kids, the'll get over it". Yes, we may hurt our kids but I don't know many people who do it knowingly! This from a woman who had to be a stay at home mother for 14 years and I had to work to make it happen!
Ugg! I wish there was a way to make them see just how wrong they are. What a fantasy!
Matt, our W’s are searching for meaning and purpose. We have to let them go to find it. Holding on won’t keep them with us, but can easily push them farther away. Hoping they see they are doing wrong doesn’t work either, and doesn’t help us. It causes us pain and keeps us stuck.
Please accept your W for where she is right now. Yes, it will be all about her for a while, and tough on you. Are you up for this? Are you ok with being a friend who she can talk to who you won’t be able to touch? If you can do this, it might keep her from running away from you, while still giving her a chance to figure out that you and the M weren’t the main problem after all. (ON HER OWN! Don't try to tell her or have anyone else tell her, it doesn't work like that.)
I the beginning, my W talked a lot about D and running away. That was two years ago. It's been well over a year since she's said anything about that, and it seems unlikely she will leave our home. We get along well and talk every day. I give her space and created a home setting where she could feel comfortable. She is free to do her own thing, or engage with me… her choice. We still have a long ways to go, but it really does get so much easier when you let her go, and accept where things are at the moment.
Oh, and most importantly, figure out a way to enjoy each day!
Matt,
I was getting ready to respond to your posts...lo and behold! FY pops in with his post. He's said all I wanted to say earlier. So there's nothing to add here.
The only thing I would add is to treat W like a roommate who comes and goes. You just share a house, food, bills, and engage in chit chat about this and that with her.
Something my W said last night has me perplexed. Not the first time this has kind of thing has happened and not sure how she expects me to react or why. On Sunday I took a picture of her that turned out well. My W cropped it and decided to replace her older photo and use this one as her Facebook photo, you know the one that comes up when you see them on Facebook. She has lost a lot of weight and changed her hair, wears more make-up, etc. and is always worried about how other people see her (she thinks other men don't look at her but she is VERY wrong about that!)Well, her bestfriends boyfriend saw the picture and he is obsessed with it. Went on and on about how great she looks and is bugging her to "get together" with my wife since she posted it! My W tells me this smiling and thinks it's just SOOO great! Of course her best friend is one of the people telling her how she needs to divorce me, said that the only reason she's with this guy is because she likes the sex and said "It's a good thing I really don't give a damn about him or I'd be upset about the way he's drooling over you". This woman, back around the time of B-day, suggested that my W have sex with her boyfriends son to "get it out of her system" and see if she really did want to leave me! Thank God my W told her that isn't something she would do and this woman made fun of her saying "Oh, I forgot, you're a good girl", just what someone going thru MLC needs to hear!It make's my W think that being "bad" is a way of being "independent". This is her new MLC friends, classy people don't you think?
Now, why tell me this? Does she think that it makes me feel good that the person who tells me that I'm not good enough for her is being lusted after? She definitely enjoys it, you can tell from her smile and attitude. Would she like it if I told her some bimbo was lusting after me? No, she wouldn't. Hell, some woman who works at a different office in my building invited me to go out with a group, all very innocent, and she got upset just a few months ago. She got upset that an old girlfriend I hadn't seen or spoken to in 25 years messaged ME on Facebook but messages her old fiance and says that's none of my business (this was pre B-day). Does she want me to be jealous? I can't see why she would since she has made it clear I'm not someone she wants, even after 25 years together.
Do they enjoy saying things that they hope are hurtful even though I'm not hurt, I'm disappointed that this person that I have loved and respected for so long would get such a rush from some slease lusting after her! There are so many things for her to feel good about herself about. Her work, her kids, etc. and this is what makes her happy to hear? It's not like I didn't give her positive feedback about her looks for the last 25 years. But, every time I would tell her how beautiful she was, she would tell me I was either lying or that I was the ONLY man in the world that saw her that way. She even said at one time I must have a "brain problem" that made me see her that way! Now that she's so thin people think she is ill, she thinks she is hot but of course, my opinion isn't one she values. What the hell happened to the woman I knew! Is this part of her MLC? I thought it was about her wanting to be independent and wanting to make her mark, maybe it's just about her wanting to be seen as hot by strangers and a#$*&les! Another day, another way to lose hope she'll ever get through the tunnel!
Matt,
I warned you from the very beginning that this will be a long, long, long process that can take years. You've been at this only...what...1 to 2 months. A baby really.
Do they enjoy saying things that they hope are hurtful even though I'm not hurt, I'm disappointed that this person that I have loved and respected for so long would get such a rush from some slease lusting after her!
Absolutely not. They aren't doing this to hurt the spouse at all. It is all ABOUT them. The MLCer, in the beginning stages, is in "me, me" mode. It is not your position to be disappointed, but just be detached and not judging your W.
They're looking for external validation from others. For me, I had my own OW. So we look outwardly for validation for various reasons...your W seems concerned about losing her youthful looks as she ages so she seeks 'validation' from other men and people that she is still indeed attractive. Your W does NOT want to hear from you as she sees you as the problem, not her. So no comments about her looks or whatnot.
What the hell happened to the woman I knew! Is this part of her MLC?
Yup. It is NOT you.
Another day, another way to lose hope she'll ever get through the tunnel!
Hope for what, Matt?! Having any type of hope while your spouse is in MLC is futile. On the other hand, having faith while the spouse is in MLC is a good thing. Faith that somehow things will work themselves out in the end. This is what FY and T (TSquared 2) are living day in and day out with their MLC wives.
Matt, it will take years before W ever emerges out of the tunnel. Just so you are aware of this, if this hasn't gotten through to you by now.
Thanks FY and Wonka.
That's what I've been trying to do for a long time now. Her MLC started long before B-day. She stopped being a wife and mother years ago and spent all her time either working or with her work friends. Even decided that we didn't even need to vacation together or with the kids, that's what her dad's family does. It's been 10 months since b-day and it took me until last Dec. to realize it was MLC and stop trying to "fix" myself or her. Since then I haven't asked her not do anything, gotten upset about the things she did that would have upset me in the past (like getting drunk and staying out all night, spending money we don't have to go on trips to visit her dad and leaving me to take care of the kids, home, etc., going away "for work" for weeks at a time and again, leaving me to take care of everything, etc.). I have given her space in spades and remained supportive when she does things of value.
At the start of all this I said things that I now know were wrong and I no longer believe (I told her when she said she wanted to "be on her own, in control of every part of her life" that she wouldn't make it on her own, she needed me, something I regret and came up in our last "talk" a few weeks ago when I told her of course she would be fine on her own, that's not in question. She told me that wasn't what I said before and I told her I was hurting back then and apologized)and I've tried to show her through my actions and attitude that I understand what she is going through much better now. Of course, can't just say that as that would sound like I know better than her what she needs, a big no-no!
The hard part is when she says and does things TRYING to get me to react. It's gotten to where I can see it in her face when she does this, a sort of "test" to see if she can't get me to react badly. Also, the stress of being in charge of the finances when she spends and won't listen when I tell her we don't have the money to do something she wants to do and acts like a kid whose parent said "no" to something they want. Also, when the things she does effect my kids and hurt them, it's hard to be her "friend" when she is so uncaring about her own kids.
It's been "all about her" for so very long now and the worst things that entails are on the horizon, like having to tell my daughter she can't go to the school she has been told her whole life she would be going to only because mom "needs" to "find her joy" and live apart from us. So, while I know what you are saying is so very true. That that is how I MUST be if I ever want her to come through this, there are times that is just so very hard. Thanks for the reminder. It does help to hear others say that there can be hope if I can do what I know I should. Sometimes it gets hard to be strong and detached.
I will say this...at the start of this, post B-day, W said she wanted a D, no hope that our marriage could EVER get better and she had no intention to "try" even if it could. This is no longer the case. Now, she isn't in a hurry to D. She just wants to be on her own and separated, not D. Of course she has reasons like health insur. and such but it's a big step from "I want a D and I will not even think about trying". Even her saying "If we ever do try again, which is a big if, it will have to be slow" is a step up from her previous attitude. Of course this could all change in an instant if OP enters the picture (other than her father, of course)but it is something. Part of the problem is there really isn't a place in our small home where she can go and have her "own space". She sleeps on the couch and that isn't a good long term solution to her space problem. I think if she could have a room of her own she would feel better about an "in-home" separation. Only time will tell.
Thanks for the reminder guys, some days are better than others and this weekend was bad.
If you read through all the sitches here, and from the past in the archives, you will see this is pretty normal, this behavior of hers.
MLC'ers are self-absorbed, it IS about them. They are trying to save themselves. Please try to not look for ANYthing from her right now. Nada, Zilch, ZIP.
You only hurt yourself doing so.I'm 2.5 + years into phase 2 of my W's 5 year journey, I started here a few months after BD, not knowing what I was really dealing with, so I highly suggest digging in to sitches and archives here to learn...it will give you clarity and eventually you will learn acceptance and have some peace.
The sooner you accept, and begin working on yourself, taming your ego (that was particularly hard for me), figure out what YOU want YOUR life to look like, with or without her, the sooner you will feel better, the sooner you will create your own peace.
And you know, when I first started reading here and saw people posting that their spouses MLC was the best thing that ever happened to them, I did not understand how or why....I do now...It's the breaking of the old patterns, the opportunity for self growth, becoming the person we are meant to be. But you have to do the work on yourself to gain from this nightmare. My W's MLC, painful as it has been, is the best thing that has happened to me, because of who I am now. I wouldn't trade it for anything.
But you have to do the work, tame your ego, accept and stop trying to control the outcome.
Just my 2.5 cents...YMMV...
Thanks Wonka.
I guess my time line isn't clear. W has been in MLC for years. Started about a year after she went back to work when she stopped doing ANYTHING with me or the kids.(about 3 years ago) Spent all her time working and with her friends from work. Of course I was worried that she had just come out of a long bout with depression and not knowing ANYTHING about MLC, didn't know what the heck was up with her. Just before B-day, W tells me she thinks she has hormone problems and wondering if she might be having an MLC! Than after many tries to make things better including my getting a vasectomy, comes B-day. That was 10 months ago.
I believed that the reasons she said at the start were real and I went about trying to be a better husband. Of course as everything she said no longer was valid, she came up with new reasons. It got so bad at one point she said she couldn't stand the way I chew my food, so she has to divorce me! I tried other marriage "saving" sites and books. On one of them I met someone who described what I was going through perfectly. That's when I looked into MLC.
The first book I saw listed 15 things that an MLC W is doing. All 15 were things my wife was doing. The more I read, the more I became certain that this was the problem. That was about 5 months ago. Since then I have changed the way I had been acting. I have tried to detach, GAL, give her space. Little did I know that back in Dec. she snooped on another web site where I had vented BEFORE I knew this was MLC and she of course didn't say anything but her attitude got worse, ring came off, left bedroom, all because of one post that she read more into than was even there AND no longer reflected how I felt. This I just found out a couple weeks ago.
As you know in her MLC mind what she read must be how I felt now and it didn't matter to her that for months I've done nothing but give her the space she wants. When she talked to me finally I think she understands that I am miles from where I was back then but you know how the selective memories have a way of only seeing and remembering "bad", never good.
So, it's been much longer than 1-2 months and I'm sorry I didn't make that clear at the start. This is the first site I found that is about the MLC S and doesn't tell you to do all the wrong things like make ultimatums and "demand" better behavior or even one that suggested "dating" other women to make my W jelous! Don't worry, I wasn't THAT stupid! I have watched my W go from a caring mother to acting like a teenager who forgets school meetings and instead goes out with her friends after work (8 months ago). I've had to tell her 14 year old daughter many times that mommy doesn't hate her or not want to spend time with her when she tells her she can't do something with her but then goes and does the same thing without her with her "friends". She hasn't cooked a meal in more than a year but bakes and cooks all kinds of things for her to take to her friends at work. I only wish it had only been a couple months of this. I also wish that I had known about MLC from the start of this, maybe things would have gone differently, maybe not.
They say you get BD around 50% of the way through...so far, my sitch matches...but all the mlcs are unique.
It would have gone differently, just not sure "how" (better or worse).
Some good threads to read are Sandi2's (to get the woman WAW/mlc side/experience), HRM134, Raine, Takevowsseriously, of course all of Cadet's homework should be read and reread, especially AmyC's posts and job's postings.
Correction... Takevowsserious and also reachingHigher
And ForeverYoung, JFun, my thread, Jack3beans, Mach1, etc
Thanks T! Lots of homework. I've seen AmyC's and that was very eye opening! Will be busy.
You're spinning way too fast, Matt. You gotta find a way (GAL, detach, PMA) to slow down and relax, or you will surely self destruct!
You didn't ask for this, but neither did she. It's something that was foisted on both of you. Keeping this in mind may help you stop blaming her, and seeing yourself as the victim.
We all are flattered to know someone fancies us. This doesn't mean we are going to jump in bed with 'em. The fact that your W is TELLING you about this stuff (as does mine) is a good sign. Do you think she would tell you if she was actually doing someone? Or seriously thinking about it?
I choose to be the friend my W feels comfortable opening up to. It seems to be working for us.
If it turns out she does cheat, you can deal with it then. No need to worry yourself bald about it now.
Matt-
I feel for you. This is a nightmare that none of us asked for. But we are all very strong people, the week give up sooner than us. I wish that I had found this site in the beginning, as I have made every mistake a few times, and now H is even further away from me. We are roommates only - even seperate rooms. H is having EA and PA but claims they are only friends. UGH!
I am glad that you did not do the things that other sites recommended. I have heard some really off the wall things to keep things together.
You will find that this is the best place to come and get advice and vent. Friends and family are concerned for you and don't give the best advice and get tired of listening. They cannot remove the worry for their loved one from the equation.
It took me a long time to realize this was not my fault. I hope that you figured it out early on. I kept thinking if I would have done this, if I would have done that he would be ok. The reality is that there is nothing that I could have done to stop this process. I have been blamed for everything including H childhood and I did not know him until late 20s.
Learn to find things that make you laugh. Sometimes the things MLCer do, you cannot help but laugh, as you have cried too much.
The best things for me have been IC, meds, and giving myself time to cry or yell or punch the punching bag everyday.
Wishing you happiness and have a good week!
Hi Matt and Scooby ~
Scooby, they've locked your thread because it's over 100 posts. Time to start a new one
As for the controlling behavior you will see from your MLCers - I have found that the more out of control they are, the more they will often try to control others. It's all about them, what's going on inside them.
I understand all the feelings that rise up - hurt, anger, frustration, disappointment and even disgust at times. Whether they intend to hurt us or not, they do. But - and this is a big BUT - we can feel these things without judging them. They aren't doing these things to us, we just happen to be in the way so to speak.
Best thing to do is to get yourself out of the way.
Some good advice from other posters, and lots to read here to help you along the way
Thanks FY, scooby and TVS!
Helps to know I'm not alone. My W goes up and down and all around when it comes to what she is willing to talk to me about. Some days she wants to hide everything (like changing the passwords for the email we shared for 15 years and I need access to for bills), other days she wants to talk and talk about everything going on in her life (some of which I really don't want to hear). She knows that I love her deeply. She knows I tried every way I knew how to be a good husband (most days)but will also bring up mistakes from long ago to justify her behavior now. Some days she will seek my touch (but will NEVER touch me)others, my touch is like hot coals to her.
The more that I give her space, don't get upset at her even over things that I have every right to get upset over, listen to her and validate her (never giving advice), the more relaxed she is around me (although never totally so). She is dealing with her grandmother losing her mind and having to move to a nursing home that she doesn't want to be in and I have given up much of my GAL activities as of late to allow her the time and space to help her and her mother deal with that. While she would NEVER thank me for it, I do think she sees this.
This morning she told me one of the few women she works with that are happily married and she calls a "friend" is going to be fired. The reasons? Well, the main one from what my wife has said is that she actually wants to spend time with her family and doesn't work "off the clock" like the single and divorced people. I really think one of the reasons that things got bad in my marriage is that since her work has become more and more important to my W, she has felt pressure from me to be more involved with me and the kids while at the same time her work and her work friends demand more and more of her time. This is why most of the people she works with are divorced I think.
Since going back to work my W has thrown herself into it. The kids are older (oldest is now 18, youngest 14)they don't need her as much and this is a big part of the mid-life adjustments men and women need to make. The inability to integrate this new part of their life without destroying the old is one of the reasons they are in crisis! For my wife it's made worse in that her dad refused to accept her when she was not working and his lack of attention and approval has haunted her all her life. Doesn't help that he now is encouraging her to leave her marriage so she can "grow"!
In some ways the fact that my W can be so open and "friendly" at times makes things somewhat harder in that it gives me hope that she may be "coming around" when in fact she has a long way to go. Doesn't help that my business is failing and has been and money is more than tight! Even before her MLC my W was always afraid of not having enough money, even when it wasn't a problem she was never comfortable and part of her wanting "control". I have offered for years to give her this control but she refuses as it 'freaks her out". It also allows her to blame me for any money problems even when she is the cause (not cheap to go through an MLC! Just the new clothes and sexy underwear bills are off the charts! :))
I'm trying as best I can to stop spinning, to keep my mind on the fact that I didn't cause this and I can't "fix" it. Knowing that there is nothing I can do to make it better or move faster while there are many, many ways I can make it worse is daunting at times. When she is being more open, it's hard not to think there may be a way to get her to understand what she is going through isn't about me or her marriage but I know that's not true. It's also hard in that it feels almost like I have to deal with 3 teenagers, one of whom is really 47 and there is nothing I can do to get her to listen!
I guess another thing that I'm trying to understand is why do I still love this woman as much as I do? This selfish behavior and the blaming me has been going on for years and before that I had to deal with 3 years of her depression, thoughts of suicide, inability to get out of bed most days. All through this I have loved her and still do. Now she wants to tell me that all her pain, all her depression, all her unhappiness is MY fault somehow and all she needs to do is get away from me and all will magically be happy and joyful and still I love her. I'm not afraid of being alone or never finding another person to spend my life with. I know that if I did get divorced there will be someone out there that I could start over with, be "happy" with (since I know my being happy or not isn't up to anyone but me)but still I want my W. Why? Even she has said "Maybe you'll find out you'll be happier when I'm gone". Why do I still care so darn much for a person who has made it clear I'm not good enough or worse I am the cause of all their pain?
You do seem to be focused a lot on HER MLC.....
IF you are standing (and I assume you are since you are posting here), then it is your MLC too. Only difference is, that you get to do the same as she does, without all of the confusion, and internal conflict that she has to deal with.
You get to do this with a clear head, and without destroying everything in your life to get there.
I have always said that there are two sides to every person. Their personality, and their character. The personality is what they show to the world, and their character is who they are when the room is dark, and there is nobody watching them.
MLC is a full frontal attack on a person' character, and it attacks every facet of their moral code, social code, integrity, honor,etc...
Yea, she seems pretty script with a lot of her actions.
What is it that YOU want right now ??
Nothing about her either...
This is about you, your hopes, your dreams, your thoughts ????
You say that you have given up GAL.....
Why ???
And not some cheesy version of why, the real truth of why, and how that affects YOU in the long run... ????
Your goal right now, is to outlast her MLC. You have to be stronger than anything that she can throw at you.
And the suktastic part of that, is that there are absolutely ZERO guarantees that things will work out in the end.
Do you have it in you, to outlast her ?
Most guys don't make it that long, they come here, and profess that they can stand forever for their spouse, blah, blah, blah...
And they last a few months.....
Can you last ????
How much of " Why do I love her ?" comes from your guilt ? and your past actions ???
Yes, you did not CAUSE this, although you did contribute to it. Everything in her life until this point has been a contribution to it....
Her MLC is just that....HERS....
Leave it the F alone, and don't get it out and play with it, just to see if it is still there...
Focus on you, the kids, and WHEN this turns around for her ???
You will be the second person to know...
Matt.
Just take it moment to moment. You don't have to decide if you can hang in there a long time right now. Just concentrate on here and now. It is very hard to implement all the suggestions, but you will get better. Learn to watch from afar. It is challenging, but saves you in the long run. Have fun with kids and let your w be selfish and live her life. Hopefully the more freedom they have, the sooner they will wake up.
Hi Mach1,
Well, I don't know about not having the confusion and internal conflict. Maybe not the same kind of confusion and conflict but they are both there. As much as we all like to think we are our own person we do depend on a very few select few people in our lives. For me the number one was my wife. To watch the person I've known go away and be replaced by this alien is rather confusing. I will say when my W went into her depression around 7 years ago, I lost a big part of myself. I had to take over so much of the day to day and still go out and make a living and my world became smaller for sure.
Then, when she was finally out of that she started down the MLC road! Of course not knowing what was going on, I tried all the wrongs ways to get through to her and never was able to re-focus on myself. One of the things I not only want but NEED to do is find ME again. Not the husband/father me but the all around me that somehow got lost in all this mess. I've been nothing but husband/father for so dang long and with W in MLC I still need to be caregiver #1 for my girls. I had always thought that when the kids were done HS and off to college, W and I could finally be there for each other. Do the things we put off because of needing money for kids school and such. Travel, just be there for each other and not have to be a parent first and foremost. Now that seems less likely than ever.
I haven't stopped GALing, I just backed off for a bit so I can allow my W some time to help her grandmother get used to the new home she just this last Friday moved into. I've been having to pick up the kids from school and get them feed and such so she can go visit her GM which just doesn't leave time for getting out. This won't last for more than this week and I will be back to going and doing my thing next week.
As for personality/character...I have watched my MLC W try on diffferent personalities for more than a year! One of the things that she has said is she can't "find her joy" when she is with me. I believe this is because she knows that I know who she is better than anyone. She can't wear a mask with me around . She insisted on going alone to her co. X-mass party. Then I hear how everyone there thought she must have been drinking she was acting so "out of character" and this excited her. She so badly wants to change who she is, how she is seen by others. Before B-day she would talk about how she felt "invisible" to other people. How no one noticed her. She has always been shy but has worked hard to not be. She always found fault with herself and nothing I said or did seemed to help her low self esteem. These new personalities seem like a way for her to be noticed, even if for all the wrong reasons.
These new personalities conflict with her character in so many ways.At least the character she had pre-MLC. She always put her kids first. Never believed in divorce, sacrificed "things" for what was best for the family. Now she says divorce isn't wrong, it's how you act after that makes it hard on the kids. That we all hurt our kids, they'll get over it. Personal happiness comes before responsibility to others. Work and friends come before home and family, etc. This change in character allows her to also change personality without the internal conflict.
If I had known more about MLC I would have seen it coming for sure. I really don't think I could have done a thing to stop it as every attempt I ever made to boost her self esteem and let her know how important and worthy she was ever worked. All I ever got was that I was the only person who saw her this way and since I was in love with her, my opinion didn't count.
As for being able to stand for my marriage. I stayed through 3 years of depression. I have lasted through 3+ years of MLC so far and close to a year since B-day. I have listened to her tell me some of the most hurtful things another person can say to me, the taking off of her wedding ring, the neglect of her kids, a near nervous breakdown last Aug.where she had to go back on anti-depression meds and blamed her "bad marriage" for it. The spending sprees, the staying out all night, the going away for weeks at a time with no thought to me having to take care of everything. The anger and meanness. The anxiety/depression. The blame and taking no responsibility for ANY part of our "bad marriage". The accusations of wrong doing on my part that have no basis in reality. The list gets longer and I'm sure worse is yet to come. I am sure of one thing, I will stand for my marriage until it no longer has any chance. That point, if it comes, will be because of not what I decide but what my W decides and whether she can make the journey through the tunnel and if she does, who she is when she comes out the other side.
Thanks scooby, I needed to hear (read?) that right now! I do know I want so badly to see this to the end, no matter what the outcome. She may come out the other side and be so changed she just doesn't want me but at least I'll know I stuck in there to the end!
Damn...that's a lot of Fing words....
Hi Mach1,
Well, I don't know about not having the confusion and internal conflict. Maybe not the same kind of confusion and conflict but they are both there. As much as we all like to think we are our own person we do depend on a very few select few people in our lives. For me the number one was my wife. To watch the person I've known go away and be replaced by this alien is rather confusing. I will say when my W went into her depression around 7 years ago, I lost a big part of myself. I had to take over so much of the day to day and still go out and make a living and my world became smaller for sure.
MLC is depression
Don't underestimate the confusion inside of the MLCers head..
Have you done any reading on Co-Dependency ???
You aren't responsible for her happiness, any more than she is responsible for your happiness....
And that is a LOT of pressure to place on another person....
Do YOU want that responsibility for her ???
Is that what a marriage looks like to you ??
Your partner being responsible for your happiness/emotional self worth ???
Then, when she was finally out of that she started down the MLC road! Of course not knowing what was going on, I tried all the wrongs ways to get through to her and never was able to re-focus on myself. One of the things I not only want but NEED to do is find ME again. Not the husband/father me but the all around me that somehow got lost in all this mess. I've been nothing but husband/father for so dang long and with W in MLC I still need to be caregiver #1 for my girls. I had always thought that when the kids were done HS and off to college, W and I could finally be there for each other. Do the things we put off because of needing money for kids school and such. Travel, just be there for each other and not have to be a parent first and foremost. Now that seems less likely than ever.
We have ALL tried the wrong things at first....
You sure that you are done trying them ????
I haven't stopped GALing, I just backed off for a bit so I can allow my W some time to help her grandmother get used to the new home she just this last Friday moved into. I've been having to pick up the kids from school and get them feed and such so she can go visit her GM which just doesn't leave time for getting out. This won't last for more than this week and I will be back to going and doing my thing next week.
Good
As for personality/character...I have watched my MLC W try on diffferent personalities for more than a year! One of the things that she has said is she can't "find her joy" when she is with me. I believe this is because she knows that I know who she is better than anyone. She can't wear a mask with me around . She insisted on going alone to her co. X-mass party. Then I hear how everyone there thought she must have been drinking she was acting so "out of character" and this excited her. She so badly wants to change who she is, how she is seen by others. Before B-day she would talk about how she felt "invisible" to other people. How no one noticed her. She has always been shy but has worked hard to not be. She always found fault with herself and nothing I said or did seemed to help her low self esteem. These new personalities seem like a way for her to be noticed, even if for all the wrong reasons.
No
You USED to know her better than anyone....maybe
Or did you ???
Did you ever imagine that she could do this ??
Do you think that she is CHOOSING this ???
You, fighting against what she believes in now (right or wrong to the majority of the world), is exactly what she is trying to get away from....
You support her, but only if she does them in YOUR way ???
These new personalities conflict with her character in so many ways.At least the character she had pre-MLC. She always put her kids first. Never believed in divorce, sacrificed "things" for what was best for the family. Now she says divorce isn't wrong, it's how you act after that makes it hard on the kids. That we all hurt our kids, they'll get over it. Personal happiness comes before responsibility to others. Work and friends come before home and family, etc. This change in character allows her to also change personality without the internal conflict.
Maybe...maybe not...
How are you sure that these are what was really inside of her ?
Maybe she had always just assumed, or adapted what everyone else thought she should believe in ???
That is what MLC is Matt...
They take everything out of the box. They play with it, try it on, and see how it fits, how it responds for them.
They have little that they actually own (internally), and everything is bright, shiny, and new to them.
Everything in their life, up to this point, has made them un-happy inside. Something is missing from their life, and nothing is held sacred anymore.
What has been the one constant for her ???
You....
That skin has to be shed before she can tell, or decide if it is you that is the problem.
Most MLCers refuse to look inward, because the problem cannot be with them self (part of the depression), so it HAS to be something else. You are the closest to her, so she hurts you the most.....
If I had known more about MLC I would have seen it coming for sure. I really don't think I could have done a thing to stop it as every attempt I ever made to boost her self esteem and let her know how important and worthy she was ever worked. All I ever got was that I was the only person who saw her this way and since I was in love with her, my opinion didn't count.
No you wouldn't have, and no you couldn't have stopped it...
No, you cannot help it move along any faster, although you can prolong it....
Nothing you say or do will change anything with her, yet everything you say or do will play a part in this....
She didn't/doesn't need or want you to boost her self esteem...she is now, and has always wanted to do that on her own....
How much have you gotten in the way of that ???
Are you still ???
Part of her pushing you now, and the reason that she doesn't want your opinion, is that she was with you for years, and she doesn't feel any differently now (maybe even worse), so in her book, your opinion doesn't matter.
It is also YOUR answer, for her problems....
Not gonna happen...
How much of your support was criticism ???
Criticism is a form of control....
Are you controlling ???
I would say first things first....
Stop trying to diagnose her, and stop trying to "fix" her....
It's not your job....
Matt,
Mach is trying to help you to see that you have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with W's MLC and trying to 'diagnose' or 'fixing' her crisis isn't your job at all.
I want to expand on Mach's comment here:
Most MLCers refuse to look inward, because the problem cannot be with them self (part of the depression), so it HAS to be something else. You are the closest to her, so she hurts you the most.....
In my case, when I was going through my own MLC, I was deeply mired in my own unhappiness along with depression that felt like the world was closing in on me...especially Ms. Wonka. As we live in a very tangible world, we struggle trying to find the "source" of our unhappiness or depression which is why we look outward/externally to latch onto as a way to identify the REAL problem so we can fix it. For me, I was clueless and unaware that it was ALL ON ME and my chit. It took a long time to work through that others, especially Ms. Wonka, was not the source of my MLC angst.
In a way, we were not refusing to look inward...but working VERY hard to identify and locate the source of whatever is causing our misery. It makes sense from our POV that something "out there" is the cause of it. Because the spouse is the closest to the MLCer, you bear the brunt of their anger and spewing. It is not until years later after our OWs/OMs and whatever else experimentation peters off that we slowly begin to realize that the problem all along was INTERNAL. Those group of MLCers are more, for lack of a better word, self-aware and evolved as opposed to those who remain stuck for years and years (i.e. Bea, WH, & Job's nutty nutters).
It is a slow process in waking up to the ultimate realization that the MLC was due to unresolved issues in a person's youth.
Hey Matt,
I wanted to post on your sitch since you posted on mine
It's a long journey. Pretty much everyone here knows what you're going through because they have gone through it in one way or another so definitely listen to what you're being advised by the ones who know. I'm still new so I can only tell you what has worked for me so far: GAL, Reading every resource you can get your hands on on MLC. Understanding you cannot fix anything, you can only control yourself. I joined a divorce rebuilding group and it has sooooo helped my progress. Journaling - you can journal here but I also found writing in a notebook helps me clear my mind and enables me to sleep, it quiets my mind. Exercise helps get out the anger. Praying, and praying a lot. I was actually more of an agnostic before BD, and I feel like God has led me back to him. I pray for strength and he gives it to me. I also pray for forgiveness and the ability to forgive. He took my guilt away, I put ALL of it in his hands. Use this time for introspection. It's hard, but it helps. I have found out things about myself I never realized. His MLC forced me to look inside and discover things and I am working on positive changes. If he never sees them - oh well, I'm doing it for ME. Well I do hope he sees them one day but you have to live your life "as if" they aren't coming back. This is probably one of the most difficult things ever to deal with, truly heartbreaking. You're not alone - take it day by day. It's what you do with the time that matters. Just keep living - ((hugs))
First, God no, I don't think she is responsible for my happiness or me hers! That is one of the things that has me so confused as to why she blames her level of Unhappiness on her "bad marriage", like if you have a "Good marriage" you automatically are "happy".
As for depression, believe me, I read so much about depression back when my W was diagnosed the first time, I became an expert. Problem is no one really knows how or why anyone becomes depressed. Chemical imbalance in the brain? Childhood trauma? Genetic predisposition? I watched her get so low I would leave for work in the AM and she hadn't moved from the chair she was in when I got back 12 hours later. Believe me I didn't DEPEND on her for anything since she couldn't depend on herself!
No Marriage doesn't look like that to me. My parents have been married for close to 60 years. They do not depend on each other for their self-worth and I don't depend on my wife for mine. I will say that while we have kids that depend on us, I do expect my wife and their mother to be a good parent. I expect my wife to not, after 20 years suddenly change priorities and say personal happiness comes before not only what's best for our marriage but what's best for the FAMILY.
As for still trying "all the wrong things" the only reason they were the "wrong things" is because she is having a MLC. The things I did were reasonable if I had been dealing with someone who was in their right mind. Yes, I don't think my W is in her right mind. People who are thinking normally do not "forget" important responsibilities. They do not go from one extreme in the way they think and feel about what is right and wrong to the other in the blink of an eye. As for still trying the wrong things, well considering I'm not trying anything but giving her as much space as possible, I don't see how I can still be doing anything "wrong".
As for not really knowing how she felt in the past or what she valued, you couldn't be more wrong. She was greatly affected by her childhood. She has had trust issues for many years and tested me in many ways before we got married. Before we got married we talked in great detail about what we each valued and expected from our partners. The number one thing that she had to know that I agreed with was that you don't go into marriage thinking that divorce is EVER a possibility. She said doing that pretty much insures that at some point when your going through a hard time, you will end up divorced. Divorce was for 'weak' people who refuse to work out problems. She also has, until now, always said that "love' was a verb, not a noun. It's something you DO, not something you FEEL. She was saying just this all the way up until she started down her MLC path. She was a stay at home mother by her choice. I didn't try and get her to do it nor did I try and stop her. It was important to HER and while it meant less money, I backed what she wanted.
I have supported her in whatever she felt she wanted to do from BEFORE we were married. When she wanted to finish college before she married, I told her she could live with me, go to school full time and when she was done, we could marry. I never thought of it as sacrifice, I was happy to help her reach her dream.
I have supported her in every way I knew how for 25 years. Whether it was something I "agreed" with, was my way or hers, I have given her my support. As for fighting her on what SHE believes NOW, well it's up to her how she wants to live her life BUT when it comes to the kids I can not and will not support the attitude that "We all hurt our kids, they'll get over it"! I can't support the attitude that her "happiness" at this moment is more important than what is best for our kids and their lives now and in the future. I won't support the attitude that our marriage is just "bad" and that she doesn't need to try when it would just be easier to divorce and go our separate ways, damn how it affects the kids, me or even her!I know that I can't change her mind but I also will not be 'supportive" of it! I may need to hold my tongue and let her find out on her own that this attitude doesn't lead to "happiness" but I'll be damned if I support her doing it!
As for being "controlling". I have no idea how I could have been LESS controlling! When I worked and she stayed home with the kids, it was as equals. I never stopped her from doing anything she wanted. We moved into the house SHE wanted. Bought the furniture she wanted. Went where she wanted to go. If anything, I gave her way too much control, control she really didn't want at the time.
As for getting in the way of her self esteem or being "critical" in how I supported her. Unless saying how proud I was of her or how much we all appreciate her is "criticism", unless when she would say how fat she was (she wasn't!) and me saying how I wish she could see herself the way I see her and how beautiful I thought she was is "criticism", standing up for her when her father would put her down saying how embarrassed he was to have to tell his friends his daughter was "nothing" because she was a stay at home mother, than no I don't see that. I'm sure I wasn't always perfect, no one is. But I have tried all my life to be the best husband I could. Her issues go back to her childhood and her and her fathers relationship (or lack there of). I really don't think that it is just coincidence that her first depression started after her father who didn't care about her and was openly hostile to her because she was "nothing" when she was a stay at home mom, suddenly told her he wanted to make up for all the bad things he did (his father had just died) but only her, he didn't want to be bothered with her husband or kids. That he is and has been openly pushing her to leave her family so she can be "somebody" for the last 7 years and the fact that he is the only person telling her that she is doing the right thing now isn't part of this. The fact that he had cancer and she is afraid that time is running out for her to have a "good" relationship with him isn't part of this as well. Of course it is.
Mach, sometimes and I think many times in fact, the LBS has very little to do with WAS's MLC. If I thought I was responsible for making my W happy, I'd be stepping out of the picture and saying "Oh, well. I guess I just couldn't do my job and make her happy". If I wasn't certain that what she is thinking is the big "answer" to all her life's unhappiness, throwing away 20 years of marriage and ripping her family apart ISN'T the answer, I would support her and just go on and start over with someone new. I have seen this on other marriage sites. I MUST have done SOMETHING to cause her to do this. I was controlling or I am rigid and don't like it when things don't go exactly MY way. No Mach. Even my W says that I've been a great husband and father at times. She just wants to be happy and she thinks that if she is on her own, in control of EVERY part of her life she will find this. The fact that at the same time it's exactly the thing her dad wants her to do, that the man who didn't even bother to tell her he was getting married, let alone invite her (her grandfather had to tell her, after the fact)because, well he just didn't care, is cheering her on and telling her how "proud" it makes him that she is "growing" into the kind of person he can be proud of is a big part as well.
If she is taking things out of the "box" and trying them on and she decides that the things that she needs to be happy include her putting her family below her job, her friends, her "fun", if sheding me and her kids from her life really makes her "happy", if the new person she decides to be is this person who is acting like they are 20 not 47, then maybe I did marry the wrong person. But, I really think that once she gets thru the tunnel, once she tries on all the new and "shiny" "things" and none of them bring her the lasting happiness she craves, she will come back to be more like the person she was. I know she will NEVER be that person again, anymore than I can ever be the person I was before all this started but I believe at some point she will understand that she is looking in all the wrong places for what she wants. Hell, if I wanted to believe that all the MLC spouses out there are just doing the thing they think is right and us LBSers are just plain wrong to just not step aside and say "Oh, look how great it is that our W/H has finally found the way for them to be happy! You want a divorce? SURE! You want to run off for weeks at a time and neglect the kids and leave me stuck? SURE! You're just doing what YOU need and even if the people who have loved you and counted on you the most (S and kids) have to pay the biggest price for your new found "happiness", that's OK, as long as you're "happy"" then why bother with DBing or standing?
Am I supposed to learn as much as I can about depression just to know? Or to be better able to deal with what my W throws my way? Is trying to understand trying to fix? Far from not wanting my opinion on MOST things she depends on me still in many ways. I have noticed now that she knows that I'm not just saying something nice to her to get something from her (since she has made it clear she has nothing to give)although I never did that but she may have thought I did, she can accept compliments from me when deserved without having to tell me how wrong I am (and no, I'm not fawning over her. I only give my opinion when asked).
I know she is in pain. I know that she is looking for ways to "feel" better about herself, just like all MLCers do. I know she is depressed/anxious and wants it to stop so badly she will try anything and everything until she finds what works. I know she must go through this process alone. That doesn't mean I have to like it, agree with the things she does or support those things that damage her family, me, what we've worked for the last 20 years or herself.
Wow. I have, at one time or another written very a similar story amigo. I feel for ya.
But, I really think that once she gets thru the tunnel, once she tries on all the new and "shiny" "things" and none of them bring her the lasting happiness she craves, she will come back to be more like the person she was.
If it helps, I'm 6-7 years past BD and as recently as last night, I see no change in her attitude or the attitude of OM (H now). She is still trying to create drama, anger, angst, etc. He's trying to cause some of that as well, and at one point I heard much of what you're saying you've heard. I have a similar personality as yours from what you describe.
My point? She might at some point figure things out. She might. But it's not likely that will happen in your lifetime or at least during the part of your lifetime where you still care.
AJ
Thanks Wonka. You having been thru your own MLC really helps us get a better view of what's up with the MLC S. The thing is, I'm really understanding that she needs the pain to stop. I tried so hard to be there for her when she was depressed, I thought of it like any other illness, I wouldn't leave her if she had cancer or be angry because of the way she dealt with it, why would I do that with her depression. When she has been most open she has told me she is just so afraid of withdrawing into herself again. If she is in control of every part of her life, like before she was married (and no kids)maybe she can avoid going "dark". That she is afraid I will "allow" her to withdraw by being there for her to take up the slack. Another way to blame something outside of herself I suppose but eye opening.
I know she is confused and looking for direction. There are times when I know even she isn't sure it is me that is the problem but she must try changing her life and said "divorcing you is the biggest change I can think of". I know she looks so hard for reasons that I am the cause and if you look hard enough, you can always find bad, no matter how much good is there as well. I'm sure like I feel with my W, Mrs. Wonka probably saw your pain and wanted it to stop as much as you did at the time. My W has said she tried so many things, being a mother full time, going back to work, losing weight, etc. and nothing helped her feel better, now she wants to see if being on her own is what will work.
It would be easier if that didn't mean so much pain for so many others like our kids. If only she could take the freedom and space I have tried so hard to give her and not have to run away and leave it all behind totally before she looked inward. I guess as I've given her more and more space and still she isn't "happy" she needs to cut the final ties before she will look for another reason and that is sad. I know I can't fix her, really and I have stopped trying. All I can do now is keep faith that, in the end, my W will come out of this whole and integrated, minus the pain and depression. Hopefully then we can have a life together that is better than the one we would have had if she hadn't go through the process.
Thanks for taking the time to post. It's appreciated!
Thanks TL!
I'm trying so hard to understand as much as possible. I even can see why my W is going through this having the awful childhood she did. Of course, that's cold solace when you are the one that must bear the brunt of the anger and pain when you are the person who most loved and cared for them in the past. Your sitch moved so fast and I have great hope that maybe your H will slow down enough and see that you are still having a life of your own and want that part of his back. If that does ever happen you will be the one who decides if HE is allowed back into the new life you are making for yourself! Stay strong! You are an inspiration to all us LBSers out there spinning away!
Matt,
First you posted this...
Hi Mach1,
As much as we all like to think we are our own person we do depend on a very few select few people in our lives. For me the number one was my wife. To watch the person I've known go away and be replaced by this alien is rather confusing. I will say when my W went into her depression around 7 years ago, I lost a big part of myself. I had to take over so much of the day to day and still go out and make a living and my world became smaller for sure.[/qoute]
Then a few minutes later you post this...
[quote=Matt165]First, God no, I don't think she is responsible for my happiness or me hers!
So which is it?
AJM said he could have written your story.
Guess what?
Most of us here could.
Personally, I married someone who didn't believe in divorce.
Until he did.
I married someone who said I was a good W.
Until he didn't.
I married someone who wanted to be and was a dedicated father.
Until that changed.
You asked if you should learn about depression. You asked if trying to understand is trying to fix.
Yes it is something that you should learn about. It is trying to understand but it can also be trying to fix depending on what you do with that understanding.
Reality...you weren't the perfect H. I wasn't the perfect W. There is no perfect in this world.
Odds are you were/are, or appeared to be controlling in some instances. We all have that tendency.
And while MLC happens and it isn't something that we created or caused, the fact that we weren't perfect in our M, gives some validity to the stuff that they use for reasons as to wanting to leave the marriage.
Those are things we can change. Those are the things we can do something about so IF they do come out of the fog and choose to return, the issues that were in the M are not there anymore.
You have anger that is understandable.
At your W for not meeting your expectations.
At your FIL for returning, interferring, and for basically being the cause of what your W is going through now.
You have to deal with that anger and let it go if you are to have any real hope that your W will return to you. Because one of the biggest things that keeps them from coming back is the fear of the fallout from what they have done.
Read more. Learn more. And drop the defensiveness.
You have a long way to go in this process.
Matt...
The difference here, is that you feel attacked, and all I am doing, is trying to get a more clear picture of your history...
We only know, what you have shared. So we are only hearing your side of things. There are usually 3 sides to every story. There is yours, hers, and somewhere in the middle, is where the truth lies....
Right now, you are what I would call, the Martyr stage of this. You are seeing only the good things, and you will defend them to the death. You are still wearing the rose colored glasses that everything was perfect. And ya know ? That is fine for now.
You have been charged with all of the bad in the relationship lately, and you are fighting like mad to remember the good too. It is normal for this to happen, especially early on.
What you read from me probably made you angry, like you felt that burn go up the back of your neck, like I was attacking you. Probably thought to yourself, how dare he say that, or maybe even....how did he know that ?
Like AJ and Cat have said...we have ALL been there...
We have all worn similar shoes as you are wearing now. Heard the same things, felt the same feelings, thought the same thoughts.....
I too, married a girl that was against Divorce, was a wonderful Mother, and said I was a wonderful Husband...
Right until she changed her mind about it all...
Did I blame her for this ???
Absolutely...
Did I blame her MLC ???
Her Father for dying on her when she was young ???
Her Mother for being absent after that because she was dealing with her own grief ???
Absolutely I did...
What I failed to do, was to be honest about things, and really take a look at my role in this.
You say that you supported her, and I really believe that you did...
Yet I really feel that you probably supported her the way that YOU wanted to support her, and not in the way that she needed support....
And that is a fairly common occurrence in most relationships...
We lose track of what is real, and we act on perception. We lose communication, and we THINK that we know what or spouse is saying to us.
That anger, or burn up your neck ???
When that happens, those are the things that you do not like about yourself. Those are the things that you should look at really close, and decide if you really like about yourself...
And yes, you should study about depression, you should learn about MLC, and you should read all that you can to help you through this...
Yet you learn about it for YOUR benefit, and YOUR knowledge, not to teach her anything, or try to fix anything...
IF your spouse is really MLC....
Then this is a LOOOOONGGGG road for you. Nothing started overnight, and it will not end overnight.
This is a process for you, as well as it is for her....
You are gonna have to pace yourself for this marathon if you plan to make it out the other side in tact....
And you are really gonna have to develop some thicker skin on you...
If I can fire you up that much, I can't imagine what your pretty little MLCer will do to you, once the real venom starts flowing from her....
Cause IF she is MLC ???
You ain't seen nothin yet buddy....
Thanks cat, I do get your points and they are valid. The first part of your post though, when I say my world got smaller after she first was depressed, that's because of the added responsibility I had. Because of the fact that I was now pretty much a single parent because she was always too tired, I lost touch with friends as I no longer had time for them. Not that because she was unhappy, I was. Having a depressed S means you can no longer count on them to do their part. I had to take care of two young girls, 4 dogs, a house, make a living, etc. This left little time for "fun" or outside relationships. This is what I meant by my world becoming "smaller". Someone had to do these things and I was the only one available. I wasn't going to let my kids suffer any more than they already were due to the fact that their mother was "absent" or angry or crying over something only she knew what.
For the first 6 months after B-day, all I did was try and "fix" the things about myself that my wife was saying were the things that bothered her about me and our marriage. As each one of those things fell away, she came up with new ones. Or said "I shouldn't have had to ask for a divorce for you to change. It's too late". This was when I realized it wasn't about me or our marriage. Sure, no marriage is perfect. No S is perfect. We're human, we make mistakes. Mine was trying to get my wife to engage with me and the kids again and couldn't understand why she had no interest in us.
I know there are many things about myself I need to work on. I'm doing that and making progress. My wife picked the worse time in my life she could to go thru this (I understand, she didn't actually choose to go thru this don't get me wrong) the company I had worked for for 10+ years closed without warning. I had just had a vasectomy I didn't want after she assured me she had zero thoughts of divorce. I had just started a new company knowing it would take all I had to make it work and I would need her help to make it. Then came B-day! A big part of my anger comes from this timing.
I'm trying to remember my W is in pain. She is just trying to make that pain go away but the awful things she says and does "feel" so personal at times but I'm learning how to let it go better every day. Thanks cat. I appreciate your post.
Hi everyone. Been an all around bad day and it's only 12:30! W is in an awful mood because my parents are coming in a couple weeks and she wants to clean. It would have helped if she hasn't stopped doing 95% of the housework over the last few YEARS and as hard as I try, I can't keep up on my own.
I had planned on doing some GAL tonight but I just found out my daughters prom is tonight and her boyfriend is out of town so she is going with a GF and needs a ride. Of course, my wife will not even consider doing it. That's ok, don't have the money anyway. Also, we are all going to go visit her grandmother in the new nursing home one of the things my W insists on doing with me because she wants to hide the fact of her wanting out from her family, especially her GM (although with her mind so far gone now she wouldn't remember even if she were told!).
Really wanted to GAL tonight but daughter comes first. I guess maybe telling my W SHE needs to get her there and back as I'm busy would be a huge 180 but all that would do is put my daughter in the middle of my W's sh$& storm and I don't want to do that. W also is spending money we don't have after I told her not to and now wants me to make her car payment which is late because of her spending when we didn't have the funds and I can't pay it as we don't have the money! She could use the money she hid away but won't consider doing THAT! That's HER money, even though it came out of our joint account. The selfishness of the MLCer is so amazing!
So off to W's GM's with the kids. It's going to be a long weekend and I'm going to need to detach more than ever!
Idk, dude, how would you be feeling, thinking and reacting if all her behavior was due to pancreatic cancer and chemo?
Our sitches have quite a few commonalities...
Hey, good to hear from you. That's exactly how I got through my W's first depression (started 7 years ago, ended after 3.5 years if it ever really did end). Would I let her antics get to me if she were suffering from cancer and chose this way to deal with it? NO! Same thing I'm trying to do now. Harder though as this feels so personal. Like we spouses just aren't worthy or worse we're so bad we caused their pain.
Keep the faith. We all will get through this one way or another.
Ok. Went to see W's GM today and it was hard. She thought her husband who has been dead for 30 years was not only alive but left her there all on her own and was angry at him for it. My wife finally had to tell her the truth and started to cry. I came in and helped explain to her that she was confused, helped her understand. She did finally understand and was grateful we spoke with her. My wife also is having me take her to church with me tomorrow, my wife refuses to go with me since B-day. When her GM asked her why she wasn't going to, my wife said because she's "bad" but I pray for her. Her GM also asked "don't you want to go to heaven with Matt?". My wife just nervously laughed. She doesn't even want to be married to me, let alone spend eternity with me! That was hard!
Should I be doing this? Yes, I care about her GM. I have been part of her family for 20 years and all on her mothers side love me but it is HER family. I know if I asked my W to help my parents or family member I really don't think she would. It's hard having a W who doesn't wear her ring, plans on leaving in weeks, blames me for all her unhappiness and still counts on me for so much. God, this is so hard. I still care so much about my W. I hate to see her hurt like she did today but what is she going to do when she is gone and on her own? Why does she think its ok to use the fact that I care so much about her even when she tells me she doesn't want me anymore? What exactly is it that makes her think I'm not good enough to be her husband anymore when she counts on me so much?
I know there aren't answers except none of this is about me. It's about her wanting to stop hurting but for the life of me how can she think I cause her so much pain but want so much when she gives nothing in return!
...but what is she going to do when she is gone and on her own? Why does she think its ok to use the fact that I care so much about her even when she tells me she doesn't want me anymore? What exactly is it that makes her think I'm not good enough to be her husband anymore when she counts on me so much?
I know there aren't answers except none of this is about me.
You know there are no answers to these questions yet you ask them over and over. You will only stop spinning when YOU decide to stop spinning.
I believe you are wasting a lot of time asking these questions over and over.
What is your plan? What are YOU going to do?
Matt-
I know MLC (a.k.a. MONSTER LIFE CRAZINESS) is crazy. The only thing for sure with it is the H/W is unpredictable. The only way I have been able to make it this far is I see my H as sick. I cannot leave because of in sickness and health. It is very hard, but try not to blame yourself - you did nothing wrong. Regardless if you had been perfect, or not in your W life - she still would have this MLC - nothing you could have done. I bought into everything was my fault until my H blamed his childhood on me. UMMMMMMMMMMMM not possible I did not meet him until late 20s.
You need to get off their rollercoaster ride and watch from the sidelines (I am still trying to do this.) I am actually finding some things that H does funny. The other day I was talking to a friend and said the only commandment left is murder - so I think I am good, there is nothing else he could do wrong, just repeat other sins. I was wrong! I caught him watching porn. I just bust up with a huge belly laugh for about 15 minutes. He came into my room to check on me. He actually got all monster because I did not get mad that he was watching porn - does that make sense?
My H has gotten so bad with the lies that he is now believing them as reality. He really lies about 90% of the time.
We are here for you. Post often.
Hi FY.
I think the reason I'm spinning so much lately is all the things happening right now that are milestones of sorts. My oldest is graduating HS in a couple weeks and her prom was last night. I always thought of how my W and would share these kind of moments. Instead she is using her grad as the marker of when she will LEAVE us. My youngest is going to HS next year and because of my W "needing" to be on her own, it will be nothing like she has always expected and saw her sister do. I want to be there for her and her family and she and her mom are asking a lot from me in helping with her grandmother which, if my marriage was anything like a marriage, I would be glad to do. But here I am trying to get my own life going, have put much on hold in the past because of my W's "problems" with anxiety/depression and I know by choosing to help it hurts my ability to detach and also will have to deal with the fall out of W's decision to end her marriage while also dealing with helping her with her family's problems. That's what spouses are for. That is part of the reason you WORK on your marriage so you have someone to help you with life's difficulties. Yet my W expects (and knows because of the kind of person I am) my help while at the same time doing something she admits is wrong and makes her like a "bad" person.
I'm spinning because as I try to detach and be more independent I'm pulled back by my thoughts of doing the "right" things, the things my values tell me I should be doing even if those things are things I'd only be doing because I'm married to this person who pushes me away in every way I want her in my life but asks for so much from me when it comes to the responsibilities that a spouse has to the other.
Also I think it's because she hasn't left yet but I know it's just a matter of time. When she acts nice and like her old self it gives me hope and I start to let my guard down and of course when I do that the monster in my W comes out, no matter how well things appeared to have been going up until then. She seems to be nicer as the day goes on but wakes up every morning so angry at me. Maybe because she has trouble sleeping and that is when she says she has all her "bad" thoughts.
You are right FY. I need to stop spinning and these things are just excuses. Just a hard time lately. Thanks.
Hi Matt~
I know this is so hard. A couple of thoughts...
Cat said -
"You asked if you should learn about depression. You asked if trying to understand is trying to fix.
Yes it is something that you should learn about. It is trying to understand but it can also be trying to fix depending on what you do with that understanding."
Yep. Remember Cadet's welcome post? It says depression is the key and it is always present. So yes, learning all you can about depression will help you. Keep in mind too that even though your wife will have times when she seems normal/happy, the depression is still there because she has not dealt with her issues. THAT is not your job to fix or help with. That's all on her.
You told FY-
" When she acts nice and like her old self it gives me hope and I start to let my guard down and of course when I do that the monster in my W comes out, no matter how well things appeared to have been going up until then."
Don't ever let your guard down. Believe none of what they say, right? Now that doesn't mean don't be friendly, kind, or compassionate. Just don't have any expectations as to how she will respond.
You also said -
"I'm spinning because as I try to detach and be more independent I'm pulled back by my thoughts of doing the "right" things, the things my values tell me I should be doing even if those things are things I'd only be doing because I'm married to this person who pushes me away in every way I want her in my life but asks for so much from me when it comes to the responsibilities that a spouse has to the other."
And
"I want to be there for her and her family and she and her mom are asking a lot from me in helping with her grandmother which, if my marriage was anything like a marriage, I would be glad to do. But here I am trying to get my own life going, have put much on hold in the past because of my W's "problems" with anxiety/depression and I know by choosing to help it hurts my ability to detach and also will have to deal with the fall out of W's decision to end her marriage while also dealing with helping her with her family's problems. That's what spouses are for. That is part of the reason you WORK on your marriage so you have someone to help you with life's difficulties. Yet my W expects (and knows because of the kind of person I am) my help while at the same time doing something she admits is wrong and makes her like a "bad" person."
Maybe here's another way to think about it...
You love your wife, even with all she is currently doing. If you want to be there for her and her family, then do so. Would you do these things for a good friend if they needed you? Being a friend to your wife is probably the best gift you could give her right now. True friendship - no expectations, no conditions. Be the man you want to be regardless of what she says or does.
One other thing others have touched on...
People have told you we have all been where you are. This is true. We have all heard the spew. I got our marriage was a sham, he didn't feel the same way about me, he hasn't been happy in years, he wasn't sure if he cared about me, and my favorite - he didn't even think I knew what love was.
He has since recanted most of his spew either through words or actions. But that took about two years to do.
This is the tricky part Matt - start to try to sift through the spew. Because no one is perfect, she will say things that have some truth to them. Take that in, but discard the rest. You know in your heart what is really true.
When she is spewing, it's also an opportunity to get a glimpse into what she is telling you she needs. My H said over and over again that he needed space, that he wanted to be left alone. I gave that to him.
Again, I know how hard this all is. Keep taking it one day at a time
Hi TVS.
Thank you, what you wrote and the way you put it have helped. It also helps to hear from someone who actually has had some success getting through and have seen their MLC S start to recant some of the spew. It's hard at times hearing from lbs spouses who have gone through 6 years of this only to have the MLC never come out of the tunnel at all.
Yes, I would do the same for a good friend and I need to remember this is how I need to see my W for now. One of the things that make it hard is how my W starts to seem to make progress and then she talks to her father (she did this when I was at church with her GM today) and after that she is awful and treats me with almost contempt! This man and the way he hurt her for so many years is likely the biggest cause of her pain and here she lets him do this to her! Ugh!
If I can just keep doing the right things like working on myself and being a friend to my W, maybe someday I too may hear my wife realize she was wrong. Maybe not but I need to do the work on myself either way. Thanks again, really needed to hear this today!
I'm glad it helped, Matt.
You are going to have good days and bad. Days where you think - I so got this! And days where you think - Why the hell am I sticking around for this crap?!?!
Totally normal. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and keep going.
Someone - I think it was Cadet - gave me this visual early on...
Imagine MLC like a slinky. Your wife will cycle through, time and time again, each time hopefully moving a bit closer to the end.
It takes a long time to get to the end of the slinky
Unfortunately, some never make it out.
No matter what, if you focus on you and work on you, you won't regret it.