14th Thread to Somewhere Uncertainly

) that she walked to talk, but she wasn't feeling good and wasn't sure, and I had my plans already, sooooo, we agreed to talk tonight after she gets home from work.

Keeping my brain from speculating requires some effort, lol!

We had a mini-"almost R talk" the other night. I did tell her as part of the mini R talk last night that I was proud of her, doing this job with her social anxiety, how hard that must be (basically like my post on here)and I was proud that she was so successful at it, and doing something good in the world. And it was honest enthusiasm from me, and that did generate quite the smile.

But I did express my frustration at the lack of comms about some household things, and I thought that saying "We need to communicate" was a "team" way of saying it, but W didn't take it like that. She took it as authoritarian, which surprised me. I later emailed her and told her I now understand how she could have taken it that way, after sanity checking with some people.

During the talk she mentioned "the last 4 years" so she is aware, fog thinned out quite a bit? Hmm.

Yesterday morning I sent her a text, a drive-by "happy truth dart" of sorts (and an intentional pursuit) after reading Wonks'a post on Raine's thread about the what the mlc'er fears, and I think it fits right in with W:

"Hi, I want to make sure you know that I hold no bad feelings or judgments for anything in the past. Clean slate. The past is passed.

"

No response to it, which doesn't mean anything, it could be just too much for her to respond to atm, except last night she wanted to talk...idk.

Guess we will find out this evening...minor stuff, or the biggies: R or D. My gut is quiet, which surprises me, but I better focus on keeping my brain quiet and/or distracted. A beautiful cool front has come through bringing the temp down to the high 70's...this IS my kind of weather so should find plenty to do!

Oh, and happy 2 year anniversary of BD to me! Whoop! And Sept 2009 was when OM1 got heavy and in EA mode with W, soooo, double whoop to 4 years!!

<ack!--- Hairball>

Lol...

You and your wife have come a long way. The journey isn't over yet, but it's getting closer to the finish line.

Cooler weather makes it so much more pleasant to be outside doing things. Don't over do the projects!

Continue to be patient.

Ok, my friend, you dont want to over think things, right?

Go into the talk with an open mind, validate, listen and be you.

Will be thinking of you, praying for you and sending you positive vibes.

You got this clipboard...

Good luck with your talk, thinking of you!

-cp

True Snodderly, shouldn't over-do and get worn out, need me wits about me possibly...

UR, Me? Over-think? Perish the thought, I wouldn't even know how to over-think........

Lmao...

Love you guys!!!

Hey T! Just checking up on you and your sitch. I've had lots of R and D talks sprung on me, but never had one scheduled. Yikes! I'm glad your gut is quiet about it; you're pretty perceptive, so hopefully W just wants to discuss some big purchase or something about her job. No matter what, I know you'll do great validating as always.�

Happy double whammy anniversary. My H started EA#1 four years ago this month too. September has been a month of big changes for us also over the past 4 years. Here's hoping it turns out to be a good month with lots of positive changes, changes for the better, for you.

Thank you RL! I am glad your eye work seems to be successful!

Ok, so W was too tired to have her "talk" after work, lots going on "politically", busy, etc. She just wanted to take a bath and then hit bed since she works tomorrow. I expected this as a very high probability event, so no big deal. Totally okay with it. I offered my usual "let me know if you want or need anything" and off I went about my business.

She texts me a little bit later...

"Thank you for telling this (my text to her yesterday). Sorry I didn't respond before now. This is what I was going to say last night

"

Here again is what I sent her:

""Hi, I want to make sure you know that I hold no bad feelings or judgments for anything in the past. Clean slate. The past is passed. smile ""

I texted back verifying what she texted me. She meant the same thing I did....

So, seems like she has maybe worked through her grievances/etc she harbored against me?

Any thoughts, comments, translations into "man-speak", Wonka insight, etc., are welcome, as always...

T2,
She's working through her issues and is just making sure that you are still there for her. She doesn't want you to harbor any ill will towards her or her behaviors from the past. Your response was a good one. T2, she needs reassurances that you are still there for her. I know you do this in your own way, but continue to do so as she is still a wee bit fragile.

Hang in there!

When MLCers start to come out of their tunnel, it is a very sensitive and tender stage. They are emotionally fragile and very tentative. This is the MOST critical stage for standers to be more sensitive, nurturing, and supportive to the MCLer while STFU on your own pain and resentments.

It takes a while for us to process and work through our own issues and becoming whole again. Opened ended questions will help in getting the MLCer to see their stuff in new light and come to new insights & understandings. Don't try to fix them. In an odd way, you are the MENTOR to the MLCer at this stage.

Do mentors dump their problems, issues and hurts on their mentees? No, they don't. Right. Now this is how you will need to approach things with your W going forward as she is dancing at the tunnel's opening...but not yet fully out of it. She's comfortable at that spot for the time being. It is okay for her.

Wonka thank you so much for this! I will copy it to my "Wonka's Advice" file. But how do we know when the MLCer is starting to come out of the tunnel? Or is it okay to just always be sensitive, nurturing, and supportive while STFU and giving them all that space? That's what I try to do, to be what Coach Chuck refers to as "lovely wife" but only when my H approaches me first. ??

T2 it seems to me (no MLC expert by any means) that what Snodderly says is right, that your W is looking for reassurance that you are still there for her and do not harbor any grievances; I bet your text was a great relief to her and was great DBing as usual! And I think that she wants you to know that she does not harbor any towards you either, your understanding text made it so much easier for her to tell you that!

Thank you Snodderly

Yes, I do subtly let her know, without going overboard. Doing the postmortem these past couple years, I understand something: W doesn't do "pressure" well, neither before MLC, certainly not during, and now that I realize and get this "built-in" part of her, it's a learning experience finding my way to communicating in a way that she does not perceive pressure.

And heck, I am a horrid actor, so I know she can see whatever I am feeling...she knew when I pulled away hard, she changed her actions, I changed in response, moved back towards her/us a bit, I think she can see it.

Seems like maybe she/we are at the "ground zero"...forgive the past and start anew and see what happens...idk.

I think of rH's H and the slow, slow move back....

Wonka,

What a perfect metaphor! Mentor. That, I get.

And I really try hard not to fix, I see the books and stuff she has out and reading/working through. I see she is working her issues and I just am there for her, no hovering, no digging, but if needed/wanted, I'm there. Tries my patience quite often, but....that's my problem...

Quote:

When MLCers start to come out of their tunnel, it is a very sensitive and tender stage. They are emotionally fragile and very tentative. This is the MOST critical stage for standers to be more sensitive, nurturing, and supportive to the MCLer while STFU on your own pain and resentments.

and

Do mentors dump their problems, issues and hurts on their mentees? No, they don't. Right. Now this is how you will need to approach things with your W going forward as she is dancing at the tunnel's opening...but not yet fully out of it. She's comfortable at that spot for the time being. It is okay for her.

These are now being memorized...

STFU? Oh, I can do THAT, oh he!! yeah...

Hi RL,

Quote:

But how do we know when the MLCer is starting to come out of the tunnel? Or is it okay to just always be sensitive, nurturing, and supportive while STFU and giving them all that space?

For me, I agree with what has been posted here on the forums many times..."you will know"...in my sitch: their actions, demeanor, and the "vibe" of the house will change...they will seem calmer, more relaxed more often. The look in their eyes will change. The house vibe here is SO much less tense...it's palpable since I can remember the old vibe VERY well...lol.

And yup, that is basically the meat and potatoes of my approach to my sitch for most of this once i figured out some things...what I was dealing with, what I am and want to be, learned to control my expectations,etc...

Originally Posted By: RosaLinda

Wonka thank you so much for this! I will copy it to my "Wonka's Advice" file. But how do we know when the MLCer is starting to come out of the tunnel?

When they start to put their replay antics behind and start to slowly reconnect with their spouses. Self-discovery and questioning on their part is a key part of the integration process as evidenced by rH's H, Raine's H, and T's W.

And their eyes. They start to become more focused, engaged and normal...not the the numb & fogged up look they have while in the midst of their MLC.

Hey T...we cross-posted in answer to L's inquiry!

Great minds in sync... lol!

It was nice to see that what I have seen, gathered and interpreted from W's changes and actions is validated by someone who has been there and done that and come back, thank you!...

I have the T-shirt that says "MLC High Survivor" with a picture of the Bill the Cat on it as our mascot.

I want that shirt!

This coming out of the tunnel thing...if that's what it is I'm experiencing, feels like total crap. Cause when they're in that fog you can just tell they're not normal. I'd say mentally ill is a good description, and so it's easy to brush off all the pain. But when you start to see a person there, the depression lifting and not encompassing them, yet there isn't any remorse or sorry or anything that would make it easier to forgive, then that's extremely difficult. Because now the pain is attached to someone who appears normal more often than not. He will have to face it. I can't be with him by sweeping it under the rug and pretending that I'm just glad he fixed himself. I have my limits of what I can handle, and that is beyond them.

So if indeed that is where the stage is in my sitch, you are gonna feel it. It is going to be harder for you to keep holding on. I kind of think that may be the point the lbs feels confident that they don't need the mlcer and they can move on and be happy. So perhaps that is another factor that makes it so dangerous too.

No particular meaning to these lyrics being posted, just on the spin list and a reality check...

Paul Westerberg - Good Day - from album Eventually

Good day, doesn't have to be a Friday
Doesn't need to be your birthday
The next one then you won't survive
Sing along hold my life
A good day, is any day that you're alive
Yes a good day, is any day that you're alive

Asked me mmmm, you had to ask me
In the dreams you tell me
Tell them only you were tired
Sing along hold my life
A good day, is any day that you're alive
Yeah, a good day, is any day that you're alive

A bad day comes every once in awhile your body says
Fourteen hundred shooting stars and (every time? )
A bad day comes every once in your body life
Goodbye

Hold my life one last time
A good day, is any day that you're alive
Yes a good day, is any day that you're alive
Yes a good day, is any day that you're alive
These are the days

Great perspective, T! Love the song!

Love that song.

T, I have seen seveal MLCs. A few up close. Where you are at is probably one of the, in not the, toughest parts for the WAS and the stander.

The stander is worn down from the hurt, limbo, detaching, etc.

The WAS is trying to reconcile what sent them to the tunnel, what happened while in there and how to make the final push out.

It is important to allow them the time and space to do that, while also letting them know that you are around, and it is safe.

I know you can do all this, T. But your patience will be tried at times as she works through it all. I have talked about them needed to take a few steps back in order to make the leap over the puddle.

So, one supersonic, deluxe shovel for you. Free of charge.

thanks UR

Does it come pre-charged?

As predicted, things are pretty much inching along quietly. No complaints ...

She seems more concerned about my feelings and how she is coming across...she notices her moods and lets me know before anything gets uncomfortable. More smiling in general. When she looks at me there is some positive change in her eyes. But she is still working her issues and figuring things out. I know this. And since what I have been doing appears to be working, I continue the "aloof but available", but with some occasional minor pursuit, initiation when its "business", and sometimes, occasionally, just for fun...and testing...

I have been thinking about the "apology/remorse/amends" debate some.

W did apologize last May/June...a calm, rational apology. I trust that, with her, more than some big display of remorse, etc...if she did that, I wouldn't trust it, thinking it may be just one of her histrionic tricks/outbursts.

So, I have gotten my apology.

But each sitch is different, based on the people involved. I fully believe that each will "know", whether apology, remorse, or not. Then you have to weigh how important it is to you to get apologies, remorse, amends, or not.

I feel that I don't need those now. I wanted them before, but not now. I know she feels bad about the past 4 years. If we get moving again forward, if I see the "look" in her eyes that we are "we" again...and verbal re-commitment to work on a new R, that's enough to start. I trust my gut. I look at W, I see she is/has been punishing herself, nobody I have ever known through out our M beats themselves up like she does.

I just don't want to give away any energy to negative things, expectations of some "social norm" of WAS needing to be begging for forgiveness, making amends, etc. I believe that this MLC couldn't be helped, like a sudden amnesia or disease or something. She had to go there to resolve and come to terms with herself. So did I on my journey.

I trust I'll know if it's real or not. If there is unspoken remorse or whatever.

But like MWD and SBT suggest, I am more concerned with creating new, pleasant memories; new, better comm skills and interactions and such to push out old, negative ones, from our brains. Future/forward looking.

My IC (who has worked with W as well some in the past) is of the opinion that once W finally breaks free from the tunnel, takes that big step forward... we'll be having too much fun and positive things going on that it won't be long before the past 4-5 years is a "takes effort to recall" time. Just a "weird time" in our M...we'll see...I will do my part, know that....

Another interesting thing she (IC) told me is that W has taught me how to not "need" her via her journey...

Love? Yes.
Want? Yes.
Need? No, no longer.

Paraphrasing a Meatloaf song..."Two outta 3 ain't bad..."

Hi T^2,

I'm not reading as much lately here, so don't know if the apology/remorse debate was recent or just implied.

I remember last fall you pressed me to make sure I identified and apologized for my part in making this MLC happen and I think H took it very positively.

It sounds like you are in such a good place. It may be that W may break free and reconnect faster. Who knows?

I think you have done/are doing the needed work on yourself. I wish I had done more for myself when H was out of the house. I tried to do some things, and I think I did, but I was always thinking about H :-/

You say about recalling the past 5 years ... it's true. We watched some pics and videos from 2009 a couple of nights ago. H and I kept looking at each others faces. It's the year he slid into chat rooms and ended up texting with one girl for months till he texted me by accident.

It seems like a hazy memory.

Last night before bed the issue of texting came up again. (I didn't bring it up, one of the boys did since we have a high volume of monthly texts.)

I just looked kindly at H and said do you have more things you are hiding or is everything pretty much out in the open? I'm okay with whatever you have and where you are. Just wondering.

He said he texts girls regularly but not "those kinds of texts" and nothing like he and I text. He sees it as perfectly normal.

I told him a lot of water has gone under the bridge in th last 5 years and I have learned to be suspicious and distrustful when things don't look "quite right". I told him I'm doing the best I can to learn to trust again and that each incident that he proves he is trustworthy adds to my increased confidence in him.

He sounded sad but said he understood.

I realized its best to take the focus off the "what ifs". Like what if his pretty female co-worker is going through an MLC and texts him a lot. And so on.

T^2, this whole experience just shows we have to be the best we can be and that is good enough. For us. And for them, if they want it.

We shouldn't have to worry about all the other temptations "out there" of which there ar so many!

I hope W works through her issues soon. I can't wait for you to experience some of the bliss that awaits.

rH

P.S. oh and about the apology/remorse. I don't see any of that in H nor am I expecting one. It's a journey he had to take. Why should he be sorry for that? I'm a better person, too, and am happier for who I am now. That's enough of a sweet ending for me!

Thank you rH!

The remorse/amends discussion has been floating about, I remember reading threads from years ago. And it's something that I think we all consider during this....what does remorse "look" like? What do amends "look" like? Some say many MLC'ers never give them, and does that invalidate our LBS experience? The pain? The damage? Some think yes, some not. Some tie it to being able to forgive, some, not.

So I was just pondering that within myself, determining what it looks like to ME. What are my "expectations", and, if they are not met, then what?

As UR might say, I got ahead of myself...true, but it is in my nature, and controllable now that I understand that nature. Just like to be prepared for any possible situation, if possible.

It was funny when IC said that about when/if she finally takes the big step, and how it would all seem so...distant, I thought of you and H and your reconnection and piecing...

So tonight W and I went to S3 school's open house, together!! That is one of the small changes with her the past couple months, she isn't trying to control/exclude me from that involvement with the kids. And, she complimented me, that the color of my shirt looked really good on me...haven't heard anything like that in ages!

The vibe between us was so different, more relaxed and positive, than the last time we did a school function together this spring.

Small things...but good.

T, I like what I'm reading here with regard to your w's behavior! Rh makes some very important points. Each of our mlcers is different just as each of their journey's are different. The memories of what they've done and even how the LBS felt during their "absence" may be vivid to some while foggy to others. (My uneducated opinion is that the longer that they are in the tunnel the less they remember. Too much CO2 and not enough O.)

How would you apologize or be remorseful for something that you don't specifically remember?

I haven't gotten that far in my thinking yet so I don't know what I want or need in that respect. I do recall something that my h said early on, albeit in mlc babble. He said, that if this doesn't work out with ow that he's NEVER going to allow this to happen again. I heard, "I can't control the need to be with her and I don't want to even if it's wrong." This was before Dbing and I responded with, "You are making a choice. You can walk away from this before it goes any further but you are choosing not to." He looked at me with the deer in the headlights look like I was speaking a foreign language. At the beginning of his journey he apologized for putting me through so much stress over his behavior and wondered why I put up with him. Whether he'll remember those comments, I don't know.

I think your w may have been in a similar place mentally. knowing and aware that what she is/was doing was wrong but knew that she needed to do as she was doing because she HAD to. And maybe they do, in order to move to the next stage.

Keep expectations low and PMA high! You're doing great with this T!!!!

Interesting thoughts.

Quote:

I think your w may have been in a similar place mentally. knowing and aware that what she is/was doing was wrong but knew that she needed to do as she was doing because she HAD to. And maybe they do, in order to move to the next stage.

As I recall, there is a strong sense of "I know what I'm doing is wrong - but I can't stop!" There was a strong sense that a "decision" had to be made. A strong sense that she wanted "somebody" to make that decision - either me or the OM. I also recall very strongly refusing to make that decision for her but being ready to accept whatever decision it was she came to.

I don't think they easily remember the time in the tunnel. Would you? But I also think it's a large part of the process of getting out of it. That's the part the LBS plays later, if still around and/or willing to help. It's either that or another crisis that helps them to remember and reconnect with that time once the "thrill" that has been keeping the other dogs at bay, subsides. Without one or both of those things, I have a difficult time thinking they will remember those things they said or did or that time in their life, outside of "feeling" it was a tough time.

I have met many people who have gone through similar (seems more common than talked about) and some can remember and some can't. Later, many do remember what they did, and still can't figure out how to complete that cycle. That's the saddest group, to me. When they feel bad about it (if) they cling to the blame to make themselves better or less "bad" for their choices.

The thing is, it's not as easy as just making a choice for them. Those on the outside can see it is a matter of choices piling up. It seems easy to armchair quarterback and say, "if you had done this instead of that.." But isn't that life for all of us?

It seems compassion is warranted, and T2, my hat's off to you for how you have handled things all these years. How you have grown and become stronger and not followed the conventional thoughts of our society and kicked her loose. It's not an easy adventure.

Glad to hear things are changing!

Peace,
AJ

Originally Posted By: TSquared2

So tonight W and I went to S3 school's open house, together!! That is one of the small changes with her the past couple months, she isn't trying to control/exclude me from that involvement with the kids. And, she complimented me, that the color of my shirt looked really good on me...haven't heard anything like that in ages!

The vibe between us was so different, more relaxed and positive, than the last time we did a school function together this spring.

Small things...but good.

I don't think this is so small. I think she isn't as "afraid" of you...for whatever reason. For her to compliment you, be with you in public in a family-type situation is very, very positive.

Maybe she thought about that 10% BF and the muscles you're sporting lately! Maybe....

Another thought, after reading NLT's post. I think my H thought this whole MLC thing was my fault for a very long time, so why should he apologize for getting away from something that he felt was holding him back? Then...when he wanted to come back...it was a disconnect from those feelings.

Kinda like...I have often wondered how "they" can come back home after they said all those mean and hurtful things. There is a big drop in consciousness during replay and some will remember and some won't, I guess.

Or in my H's case, it isn't a time period he forgets, it is certain kinds of incidents he remembers with stunning clarity and others he has no recollection of.

I like the "keep expectations low and PMA high", from NLT. But I hear you oozing lots and lots of PMA!

Loved AJ's post too!

TSquared, that is great that your wife is opening up to you, and feels more comfortable about everything. It's those small little things, and small steps, that really make a difference!

Also, from your post earlier, it is good that you feel you no longer 'need' her. I think we get to that place where we depend and rely on our partner to much, physically as well as emotionally. You have done a lot of self discovery and it's great that you are feeling more independant now.

PS. I was remembering your discussion about quantum physics and for some reason it made me think of this quote from Big Bang Theory:

[Missy is leaving and Sheldon is saying goodbye to her.]

Missy: I want you to know I'm very proud of you.
Sheldon: Really?
Missy: Yep. I'm always bragging to my friends about my brother, the Rocket Scientist.
[Sheldon looks in disbelief.]
Sheldon: You tell people I'm a Rocket Scientist?!
Missy: Well yeah.
Sheldon: I'm a theoretical physicist.
Missy: What's the difference?
Sheldon: What's the difference?!
Missy: Goodbye, Shelly.
Sheldon: My God! Why don't you just tell them I'm a toll taker at the Golden Gate Bridge! Rocket Scientist, how humiliating!

------------------------------
cheers,
TGIF

-cp

Thank you, fine peoples...

I think they do have "windows of clarity" every now and then through this, and they know what they are doing is wrong, but as said here, and implied by what W didn't say (lol!)...is they can't stop themselves. Driven by very, very deep wounds/needs.

For me, my own self-interest included, I cannot see how W's feeling guilty, remorse, etc, to the extent that I know she is capable of historically, can help me reach my goal of new R. I know it is there, and I wonder if that might have been contributing to her hesitating...after all, I can't imagine having to "return" after all this, worried that spouse was going to hold this time and actions over my head for the rest of life...

So I can't hang onto it, for me. That is just what works for me...I always have been pretty good at letting go and moving from things in other areas, and that is what I am feeling now. Maybe the "clean slate" text helped break that fear barrier some, reassured her that there will be no constant reminder/reference back to what she did, that she was truly forgiven, and my actions have matched those words for quite some time now...and who would even begin to want to live and be married with that reminder imposed by their spouse?

Not me.

Lol, sorry for the stream of consciousness post, guess I am talking out loud here today, fitting the pieces together...
busy Friday in nerd land...

lol, nerd-land above was referring to me and my mind and life...

Hi T2, how nice that your W is starting show some concern for your feelings, that seems like a GOOD sign! And I think the signs you are seeing in her eyes when she looks at you is the best sign. Just a couple of days before my H left to visit the Tramp, he gazed deep into my eyes, for the first time in ages. I could not remember the last time. It felt so...normal! And nice. And it's nice that you received a calm and rational apology. Like you, I don't think I need remorse or an apology, I just want my H to dump the Tramp (and not obtain any new, improved Tramps) and whole heartedly love me again. I trust that is on its way to you, slowly and surely. You're an inspiration!

Oh, and you DO look good in that color shirt

glad she noticed

Short update...

It may be that W is revisiting some replay doors, hopefully to close them for good. Maybe like rH's H did...

I was a bit spun up about it, but just more frustrated and disappointed...W cannot devastate me anymore.

After thinking about it for 72 hours, consulting with a couple few others, I am going to sit quietly. Do something different than I did 2 years ago August, and say nothing this time. Nada, nicht, zip. I didn't like the results I got 2 years ago. As far as I know, I am not insane, so will not do the same thing expecting a different result this time.

I do believe she is watching to see if I know/say anything...and if I do, how does the new+old T2 handle it? Perfect time to show the new me, that I have worked through my own baggage, insecurities, controlling, jealousy, etc. Maybe a test, maybe not, who knows? I do think I have a good handle on the possible "whys"...so we just let it be. Make allowances. Keep treading the high road, etc.

The 72 hour rule is a very effective tool to master for life in general.

Interesting reading LoisB's thread this morning...Snodderly's replies were just what I should hear as well, reminders of this reality and what it is and how to navigate it.

Quote:

I'd rather see you do that than to continue pointing out his flaws/faults. He already knows that he's a screwed up mess and doesn't need reminders of it.
To create a safe place for him to land, you have to let some of this stuff go. You need to remember that you have already pointed out his faults early on and you do not need to remind him again. It's just like people continue to bring up conversations w/their mlcers about the op. Until they feel safe enough to want to land and reconcile, they won't do it if they feel that the spouse is going to remind them each and every time they've done something wrong in the past. That's why many mlcers and was do not return home...too much work and too many reminders of what they've done.

"Aloof but available" and "as if" continue to be my M.O., and focusing on the kids and myself, with small "reach outs" to W as they are available.

Otherwise, I'm doing great! Continuing my own flavor of GAL, knocking off projects important and non, as I see fit, or as real life necessitates (and it does do that, lol).

That's about it...

Hi T2... I'm just along for the ride. Sending you (((BIG HUGS))) and patience. It can be so hard to sit quiet at times, but sounds like you have a real handle on this ... this time. After 2 years, you are now a new T2 and capable of doing something different, and in return can expect a different result.

I am anxious to see/hear if she approaches you ... as in test. Or maybe it will be water under the bridge.

Sit tight, my friend. WE ARE HERE!

Sound like your doing good, great even.

Glad you took the time to think about your options, and come to a conclusion that is neutral.

I always get curious when a sitch approaches that 2 year mark, its really seems to be a pivotal time, either way. Glad your approach is something you comfortable with.

Thanks guys...

The hard part for me personally is the not knowing for sure if she is, or not, I just don't "know", just a slight suspicion...I am a facts and details person... so this is another perfect chance to practice detachment, letting go, patience, acceptance, unconditional love and trust in life itself.

And let it be, let her be so she can figure out whatever she needs to figure out herself.

A watched pot will never boil. Leave her to mull things over and step away from her drama. The less you react to her behavior right now, the better. Keep the focus on you and your sons. Oh, btw, there's a new supply of patience shovels being delivered to your area.

T,

I'm curious to know if there's been any small, non-sexual affectionate touches from either one of you to each other. Where are you two in that process?

Thank you Snodderly...living in an agricultural area, we tend to wear shovels out pretty quickly...

Wonka, I have done a few, and did not get the "cringe" reaction we all know and love so well, so I reckon that is somewhat good. From her, no. But some of the body language has changed, stands near me a wee bit more, seems okay in the same room, does give full attention when I am talking, complimented me that included a "looks good on you"...

Thanks for the helpful info, T.

This one's a toughie. Hmmm...ummmm. scrunched nose

I'm thinking that you might want to mix things up by doing tiny stuff that fills up W's feel-good bank. I remember Ms. Wonka making me a piping hot cup of hot chocolate and put in mini-marshmallows and just brought it out to the living room which totally surprised me. I appreciated those types of gestures from Ms. Wonka even in the midst of my fog.

Looks like I need to do some brainstorming then...small ones, tiny ones...got it...

Yea...do the brainstorming on your beloved clipboard that you hold on dearly with a vice grip.

oh geeeezzzz, here we go again...

Sorry if I missed it previously, what is her Love Language (if you have read the book)?

Hi CP,

I think they are WOA and AOS...and acting "as if" they are...but really not positive on that, and maybe they've changed...idk. Hoping at some point we can take the assessment together.

Originally Posted By: TSquared2

It may be that W is revisiting some replay doors, hopefully to close them for good. Maybe like rH's H did...

I have been thinking on this for a while.

You know, T^2, much of what happened during our withdrawal phase was happening with H out of the house.

And when you think about it....Cinco de Mayo...where my H got very drunk and did the hot tub thing with his two buddies and eight women where the FB pic looked like no one had any bathing suits on...just sayin' ...was only a few months ago. Really.

He had a lot of doors to close and wasn't ready back in May. Still texting other girls regularly in June. And to a lesser extent now.

So...you see...if they decide it can go rather quickly. It just doesn't feel like it at the time.

I never thought I would be where I am now.

So...hang on...and keep being your very wonderful, awesome, good-lookin' self!

Thank you rH,

You are correct about that time perception, feels like forever while in the midst of it all.

I sometimes think that once she decides, it'll move much faster, she's historically been an "all or nothing" type, so...getting to that decision point is the trick...hope she gets there before I do, lol.

That said, things are pretty much...

Status = quo

Some small things here and there. Watching to see if some important steps are followed through on...action. Have to remind myself to look for those things, keep perspective. Keeping detached, which is a process flux-state I keep discovering...not a steady state. Every now and then I realize/discover that I do have some attachment threads still there, lol. At least they are not ropes anymore.

Myself, I am on a cleaning/organizing spree, and taking care of some long held-off projects that I chose to put off during the past two years for the sake of DB-ing the R, to show I can hold back and wait on things if need be. I waited, with no moping, hissy-fits or resentment. It is time to put some things in order. The funding is coming from a non-marital source and will benefit others in the house, including W coming up as winter arrives, and it is what I would do if she were gone.

I am immersed in studying and architecting for the new business expansion, I'm not going to let anything interfere with this opportunity...too important to the future for myself and the kids, and W if she sticks around.

Still biking most days to work, still sticking to my schedule and goals with working out and diet almost religiously.

Still feeling my way through a balance in the kitchen, grocery shopping area...and she is feeling her way too...I see her trying to get back to "normal", and making some progress there. Eventually I will have to ask her to have a talk about that, but now is not that time. With her added income it is less pressing, there is some flexibility now. So it can wait.

And so it goes...

Nice update, T^2, I like it.

Now would be an ideal time for her to "decide". You've got a positive flow of energy and projects, you are keeping your health up instead of letting it deteriorate as some do at this age, you have plans for the future.

I hope she can see what an awesome future with you it would be!

Is she still working on her self-help books--reading, absorbing, processing? Or is she more just going with the flow of working and keeping home?

Any more promising looks your way or compliments that show she may be interested in you physically?

She could never find what she has in you somewhere else and I'm guessing she doesn't want to be alone -- or can't afford to.

I was hoping you weren't affected by the floods in the Rockies. If not, that's another thing to be very grateful for

As far as I can tell, she is still processing, some different books atm. She goes in ebbs and flows, like we all do. Maybe right now it's a phase where she is "doing" work and home while background processing...idk...I try not to look too hard, just try to notice, and not analyze too much.

The advice here over and over is that they take as long as they take, nothing I can do to speed it up, lots I can do to slow it down, so I let it be. Get on with the 80% or so of my life I can influence.

I did get a hug after expressing my desire for one, and it wasn't a side hug and there wasn't any <pat><pat> involved. It was full frontal contact, a "real" hug... But idk, maybe some more being comfortable around me in general. No expectations there, especially IF she is revisting some replay, just a "feeling" I have. If so, I know she has to work that out within herself, like your H did.

This loveless, sexless marriage thingy does have an expiration date, I'm just not sure when it is, I left my reading glasses in the car...

Somewhere the line between providing a safe, sane place for someone to work things out, and being taken advantage of, maybe will get crossed, but I hope not.

We are a bit north so didn't affect us, there were some outlying areas that had some, but yes, grateful.

wow, I love the side hug one arm thing don't you? <--facetiously

I also get the lip avoidance when trying to plant a quick kiss. Or he bows his head down so I cannot reach his cheek. Ugh. So I stopped that.

If I feel the urge to give a quick kiss, I now just do it and don't have expectations of it being any different. Bleah.

The thing is he has always been such a hugger of women, friends, work colleagues and now...totally avoids his W.

Sigh.

W has started with an IC (I hope she is M-friendly. lol). And she has started on a new AD.

Actions.

There are some other little actions that appear to say she is warming up a bit to me. If I know her at all, I reckon she is having a hard time with guilt about the last 4 years or so, especially concerning the kids. A real hard time. Her actions say she is trying. Trying to fight the "run" reaction.

Meanwhile, I just go about my stuff and being me, keeping things together...dealing with whatever life throws at me, most of the time gracefully

This sound good, T^2.

I've been reading some about narcissistic parents lately and I thought about your W and how hard it is for her to learn to trust. I feel so sorry for her. I assume her parents fell in that class...or her dad?

T, it must be daunting for your wife right now, starting to face all the stuff of the last 4 years. But it is a necessary part of the process.

I would bet that you handle things gracefully and in your special T2 way.

A wide berth is what is needed, my friend. Keep a safe distance, while still letting her know you are there if needed.

You got this.

T2 "I did get a hug after expressing my desire for one, and it wasn't a side hug and there wasn't any <pat><pat> involved. It was full frontal contact, a "real" hug... But idk, maybe some more being comfortable around me in general. No expectations there, especially IF she is revisting some replay, just a "feeling" I have. If so, I know she has to work that out within herself, like your H did.

This loveless, sexless marriage thingy does have an expiration date, I'm just not sure when it is, I left my reading glasses in the car... Somewhere the line between providing a safe, sane place for someone to work things out, and being taken advantage of, maybe will get crossed, but I hope not."

PudMuddle "wow, I love the side hug one arm thing don't you? <--facetiously I also get the lip avoidance when trying to plant a quick kiss. Or he bows his head down so I cannot reach his cheek. Ugh. So I stopped that.

If I feel the urge to give a quick kiss, I now just do it and don't have expectations of it being any different. Bleah.
The thing is he has always been such a hugger of women, friends, work colleagues and now...totally avoids his W."

That's good T2, that was a GOOD hug! I was so happy that when my H returned from Moscow Wed night, I got a half-real hug, just one arm, but up close to his body, and no pat pat. But then S28 got a huge bear hug AND kiss. Made me feel sort of crappy, you know? And stupid to be jealous of my own son.

Your W's hug, even if you had to request it, does show that she is warming up to you. She IS trying. That's a lot for a MLCer. That's all they can do, little bits at a time, baby steps.

I agree that W probably IS having a difficult time with her guilt over her past actions towards you and your kids. But I have come to firmly believe in keeping the road home smoothly paved and easy to navigate. That might mean different things to different people, but for me, if my H was to show signs of recommitting himself to our marriage, including resumption of physical affection and marital relations, I would NOT demand apologies for his EAs and PAs, but would try to gracefully let him off the hook. Is that what you would do?

Hi RL,

Lol, I had to laugh at your being jealous of your own son...I just had that trigger and feeling the day before yesterday when W was being very affectionate with S2...I guess it's because we see that yes, they DO have it in them, just not for us, yet. Raine helped me see that. Let me guess, this son was the "one" H "buddied up" with, or tried to? From what I have read, we LBS are the last in line, so I take it as good that they are making their way back.

My plan, as far as all this EA/PA stuff goes, is to look at this "as if" a new R with a new person. At our ages, any new person would most likely have been with someone else, and if they haven't, that just might be a big old red flag, ya know? Lol... So is leaving the past in the past giving them a pass? Maybe? Probably? I am not sure, but FOR ME, I just don't want to dwell on and live in that particular past. If and when issues come up and need addressing, then I want to deal with them then, in the mean time, just get working on creating new memories, new vibes, new ways of interacting healthily. I just don't see how dredging through all the negativity and issues all at once and such will help, especially with my W. She does negativity just fine all on her own, and she IS working on that with IC now, and herself. Newest book observed out in "her area"...Conscious Loving: The Journey to Co-Commitment, and also good old Peale...The Power of Positive Thinking. So, I DO see effort. That, and the IC, were things I explicitly stated were needed...and her self-chosen deadline to decide is long past. And she is still here, and trying. Those "little things" continue to show up....

I would give H a few weeks or so to recover, and process his little journey, guys do that....takes some time... keep those expectations at zero and see what happens...he does have a lot to process. Hang in there RL!

Thanks, that helps. It's always good to hear a man's perspective T. I was feeling rather down because yesterday H was chatty and nice, today he is silent and walks away when I say anything. And closes any doors between us. I'm wondering if RT is putting pressure on him again. But I'll leave him to process, thanks.

Have a great weekend!

The talk about hugs makes me a bit sad. We do a lot of things together, but hugging is not one of them. No physical contact for so long I don't remember what it's like.... <sigh>

MileHigh....I'm having one of those "days", too....

so here:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I KNOW it's not at all the same thing, but just know that a kindred spirit is wishing you well today.

RL and T2,

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels jealous of spouse giving others more affection in our home! In my case, it's the DOG! LOL.

H isn't very affectionate with our four kids, either, right now. And I feel so sad for them. But, he goes out of his way to pet the dog.

While she's laying there getting her belly rubbed, so cute and adorable, and he's talking to her and loving on her, I'm thinking, "Really?????" LOL!

Originally Posted By: MileHigh

The talk about hugs makes me a bit sad. We do a lot of things together, but hugging is not one of them. No physical contact for so long I don't remember what it's like.... <sigh>

Same here. But W will hug, kiss and baby talk our pet bunny! It doesn't make me jealous though... he's old and blind and deserves his hugs.

There was a brief period around BD that W didn't care much for any of our pets either. They're back in, but not me.

Interesting week last week.

Our best car got totaled while parked by a very high driver....NOT what I needed, we didn't need a car payment just as an older loan was finally about paid off....but it is what it is.

Got a new (to us) vehicle, after an interesting exchange...I did a mix of "executive decision" and listening, validating her input. I kept the cost, and loan payment very "nice", so we will still get a wee bit ahead as the old loan is finally paid off.

W really seemed touched or something when I just handed the key to her "as if" all is normal and okay. I said "here ya go babe"

W comes home, big smile and says "it's beautiful...". I just said "like its newest driver" and walked away back to my business in the garage...

I think it (and maybe me) might have gotten good reviews from her co-workers...that smile had a "approval of others" tinge about it, maybe, maybe not.

Her and the kids have always had the most reliable and safest vehicles our whole M, and that part of me isn't about to change. Ever.

Interesting that she has been both a bit closer, yet cycled to a bit of distance, man this "stage" is tough...I have had to talk myself down from saying "well, are you staying or going, this is getting old already?" a couple few times, lmao at myself...I do know better.

Anyway, just doing my "aloof, yet available" and "STFU" idiom, good thing I don't have to work at it too hard anymore...it's rather sticking to the new+old me. It was suggested to me to make that into a bumper sticker for MY vehicle, lol. Thinking about that seriously.

Sometimes I entertain the thought that since the wrecked car was the car she took over when she didn't want to drive the "soccer Mom" minivan anymore and started down the replay path, that maybe this is some "fresh start" thing...same vehicle, but newer, but same color as the minivan, a blend of old and new. She is symbolically oriented...

Just empty musings for entertainment purposes only, lol

Actually it is very symbolic because MLC blends the old and the new personalities together at some point. It will be interesting to see what her personality will be like once she's finished baking.

Continue to be patient...she's slowly getting there!

Hi T^2!

Why must it always be the best vehicle that gets totaled? Sigh.

I like your observations of the symbolism. I have long thought the same in my sitch with H's car choices.

You are doing great! Thanks, also, for the encouragement on my thread

rH

I like your way of looking at it TSquared

I think your kind of attitude towards life, and sense of humour is what's needed in hard times, it's what keeps us sane. Keep at it, you are doing really good.
-cp

Thank you Job, rH and CP!

Yes, it will be interesting to see what comes out...lots of things I hope/pray are still there from her old personality, and yes, some things that I hope have been resolved, purged, whatever.

And of course the intrigue of the newly added that stay...

That sense of humor and attitude was the result of a LOT of research, advice, reading other sitches from here and elsewhere, and a LOT of self-work. 2-4 years ago that could not have been said...

I have a question for the vets....

W's b-day is coming up in 3.5 weeks...these past years of mlc/limbo I have just done the light and airy, maybe even fun card thing.

I want to change that up.

I want to send her a bouquet of flowers to either her work or to the house...this is something I did a lot during the courting time before we were married.

Based on the fact that she keeps looking for, and sometimes buying me things I need or could use at her store, I'm thinking one of her LL is gifts.

I am thinking to make them from "all of us boys in her home"...but she'll know who instigated it...

Given where she is at (possible re-connect/acceptance), would this be "too much" pressure/pursuit?

Thank you in advance for any thoughts and suggestions...

T^2

T,
I think it's time to send her flowers. Do you know what her favorite flowers are? I would definitely have the card say "Happy Birthday! from all of us boys in her home". I think she would love to have them...but keep everything else simple that day.

T, not a vet, but agree that flowers would be a lovely b-day present from 'her boys'. Also agree to keep everything else simple that day. I just realized it's my H's b-day in 8 days.. seems like we are really on the same timeline! lol. Have a good day.

Okay...now to send to her work (and get that attention for her)? or the house(more relaxed)?

Thank you, my gut was saying to do this, felt right, nice to know it still works somewhat, lol...and yes I do know her favorites

I think it might be best to send them to home. You don't know what kind of reaction she may have.

Agree with the flowers "from the boys". It will make her feel special.

Lovely idea, T. I am thinking send them to the house. And good for you for wanting to change things up a bit.

You the man, T

I think the flowers are a great idea, especially the card from "all her boys".

I know a lot of DB is counterintuitive, and goes against what we think/feel we should do. BUT - I think that every once in awhile, we get that feeling in our gut telling us something, guiding us.

I say follow this one

You got this Jedi...

Hi T! I hope you're having a nice weekend. Go for any drives in your new car? How are the boys? How is your W treating you?

I miss seeing your cheery and insightful posts, my friend.
Hope everything is going well for you

rH

Originally Posted By: reachingHigher

I miss seeing your cheery and insightful posts, my friend.

Yeah, me too. Come on T, bust out your clipboard notes and tell us what's going on!

Me three! C'mon Clipboard! What'd you do? GAL or some other crazy nonsense?

Hi folks, okay, okay....just haven't been feeling like posting much. I think since this is the time of year of my BDs, just lying low, and also kind of having "flashbacks" to BDs, especially with all the new people and their sitches...just bringing some of the feelings, pain, etc, back from slow storage.

Sometimes it feels the same as last post, just minor details differences...

And I have been busy with slowly putting my life back in order, catching up on things and projects delayed during the last couple of DB years....

I kind of had a mini-R talk with W, though not really because I didn't try to get any answers, I just laid out where I am at, gently.

I basically told her that I am trying to give her the space she wants, but am worried that maybe she takes it as non-caring if I give too much, that I try to read what she is wanting atm. Also that my going into work is sometimes also to stay out of my own way. That things were feeling different, so I was feeling like I wanted to change things up since I have been doing the same thing for a long time, and maybe now was the time. That I had to trust her to tell me if she needed/wanted anything different from me...

I also said something like...that when limbo goes on long enough, you stop caring about the answer, just want AN answer so you can move on, either way. That's when she told me about the IC plan, that her new therapist told W to wait on the decision to D or not until she has had a chance to work with her for a while. W apologized for not telling me sooner, that she is spacey and in her own little world.

She said I am doing fine, and she was wondering if I was starting to get antsy lately...(see, they DO know us too well, lol). Lots of eye contact, and a caring look in her eyes. Not the annoyed or hopeless, or cold shark-eye look of the past.

I also said that I am trying to live as much of my life as possible as if she isn't coming back, but do make allowances to show that if she did, things would be different. As long as it doesn't compromise my core self.

Made another change, now that I got my old BMW all fixed up mostly (finally!) and now working on the pretty-pretty and a final tune-up, I let W take it to work. And she has a key now. Letting go of my one "me" thing from the past. Most of the reluctance was due to the state of mechanical repair, but some due to her driving, which even she will say now that she is inattentive, but some was me being controlling and selfish I do admit...but regardless, it was a very symbolic (for me at least!) "show" of what a future new R might look like... She was so cute trying to hide her smile.

The newer vehicle got commandeered by S1 and GF for a road trip. Lol, so i got lots of time driving the old bimmer, usually I only get to drive it when it needs work done on it...eh, Dads do that...

So yeah, I have my antsy phases, feeling constrained, just want to show the new me in totality, but I can't yet, because of respecting W's need to "control the distance"...and that it isn't wanted now/yet.

She has been "okay", still adjusting to the working world, and working on her issues. The other day we had a school function and she basically ignored me most of it, which I let really bother me (though I didn't show it). Thinking about it the next couple of days, I remembered some of the same behavior oddities when our oldest hit middle school, and it dawned on me that her middle and high school years are deep into her issues, and maybe...maybe this is a trigger, being in the school and these functions and such. Maybe it had/has nothing to do with me.

But on the other hand this afternoon we were talking on the phone during her work break and I had taken care of something, she said "Yay!, Awesome!!" I joking replied "Why, yes I am awesome, thankyouverymuch" and she said "Yes, you are awesome" ... I did NOT hear any eye-roll, or sarcasm, so I am taking it as said. Heck, I am awesome!

But this phase is very trying, and tiring...the cycling through "nice", "almost normal", withdrawn, weird, petulent 12 yo girl, bratty 16 yo...it's like she is almost there, but there is this resistance or fear still...and yeah, I want to reach in and pull her the rest of the way out, or be done. So I sit still yet more, continue being "aloof, yet available", for a while more yet.

So I have had my detachment challenges, my patience challenges, questioning if I still want this challenges. Nothing is a steady-state...everything ebbs and flows, variables and flux.

W's bday is just around the corner...operation flower still a go.

Very funny Raine...clipboards are multi-purpose tools, just sayin'...

Thinking some more on the trigger W might have at school functions (aside from the social anxiety) has me wondering if S1 entering that phase of life started stirring the demons 7 years ago or so, before he went back to homeschooling...those years the SAD was markedly worse...idk, still too soon to put the puzzle all together accurately...

Thanks for updating us T, we're sort of pesky after not hearing from you from over a week, sorry. And I"m sorry this is a hard time of year for you, it sounds as if you are experiencing BD PTSD. And it's great that you can see that maybe her middle and high school years are causing some of her issues and it is being in school functions that is the trigger, and her behavior does not have anything to do with you. My first marriage counselor told me once to assume that 90% of my H's actions have nothing to do with me. Now THAT is difficult to imagine LOL!

I like W's answers to your mini-R talk. It sounds as if she is really working on herself, to the point where she can recognize that she is spacy and in her own world. My H is spacy and in his own world most of the time these days, but would be really surprised to hear that! The eye contact and caring look are good signs too! No accompanying half <pat><pat> hug though?

Did you really tell her that you are trying to live as much of my life as possible as if she isn't coming back? How did she answer that?

I'm pretty excited about you sending flowers from her fellas for her birthday. Did you decide whether to send them to her job yet? A couple of my coworkers have gotten flowers at work on their birthdays, and it always seemed like such a loving caring gesture! But it might be too much for W. Is she a scorpio? My H is scorpio, more like a scorpion sometimes. He sent all of his EAs flowers every birthday, and he's had a bunch of them. Me - never

Hi RL,

Quote:

Did you really tell her that you are trying to live as much of my life as possible as if she isn't coming back? How did she answer that?

I think I used the phrase "as if you still want to D"...but I really don't remember exactly. Her reaction was what I think was a look of care, and then a look down. But no words.

I know a lot of what I said was not terribly DB. Thing is, I an an open, open person to those close to me...maybe reserved publicly, I don't always offer it up, but when asked, or deemed necessary/helpful, I am pretty much what you see is what you get.

The advice from here, IC, friends is, be yourself...well, that is me. I like that about me. I don't have the strong need/want like our Scorpios for secrets and privacy.

Another thing from IC is that W likes/needs to be pursued (um, yep, lol). I should try an occasional "touch" of pursuit, otherwise W may, if she is still fence-sitting, or moving towards R, think I am not interested and give up. In a way, being pursued is a LL of hers, if that makes sense. And I have been dim enough for long enough that an occasional hint of pursuit isn't going to make or break the sitch, atm.

So, I had my say, tried a bit of mentor role maybe, now back to "aloof, yet available" and maybe a bit more initiation, depending on my read of her state atm. Idk. Just rolling with it, because I will be okay, either way.

And no hug, neither <pat><pat> nor "side-hug"...lol.

Yesterday W calls me after her IC appt, for some regular ol' car stuff with the old bimmer, then she says she's exhausted, that the IC session was "huge". She didn't give any details or hints, and I didn't ask (180 for me). I think I've said enough times that I am interested, but will wait for her to share when/if she wants or is ready, she heard and knows.

There appears to be a change in the air so far, and not a change for the worse, better in fact.

Sitting still...

T2,
Sounds like a major break thru for her. She's so close and yet can't touch the finish line.

Continue to sit quietly and still...she'll definitely share w/you when she's ready and the time is right.

Hang in there!

Oh T^2, this sounds like a breakthrough could be soon!

"The waiting is the hardest part" isn't it?

You're doing so well. Used to being patient, so a little more time won't hurt anything.

You've got your radar up so you know when she is headed in the right direction.

I liked the exchange you had recently (I'm typing on my phone so can't go to the trouble of quoting it) where you acknowledged you were awesome and so did she! It sounds like the dynamic between the two of you is very, very good.

I'm so glad she is willing to work through her issues and you are willing to wait.

Hi TSquared... just sitting still along with you.

Fingers crossed.

(((HUGS))) Magic

Originally Posted By: TSquared2

Thing is, I an an open, open person to those close to me...maybe reserved publicly, I don't always offer it up, but when asked, or deemed necessary/helpful, I am pretty much what you see is what you get.

My friend, you and I are a lot alike. ^^^^

You know, I always say that sometimes you just have to follow your gut. You know her best. There are no hard and fast rules. Sometimes you just have to go for it. I really feel as if she is turning a corner. So, I have another brand new, ultra strong patience shovel with your name on it.

Sit back and watch. Get some popcorn if you want to.

You know T, you and I share several things in common... one is W's that are quite comfortable in our homes, and not making any moves to leave.

My thoughts, for what it's worth. (about 2 cents): We have more power and control than we realize. We don't have to STFU forever.

I'm not going to be afraid to say/ask what I feel. It would be hard for me, and I believe you, to do or say anything that ended the M, or made our W's move out. Maybe it's time for something new.

Hi FY,

Since I know for a fact that W is sensitive to any pressure, even before mlc, I do need to be very mindful and weigh my wants against the bigger picture for now.

Every 3-4 months or so I do have a little "this is my feelings and reality" chat, brief, to the point, neutral, and nothing expected (too much, lol, there's always a small hope lurking in there somewhere)...it helps me keep from blowing my cool, detachment, etc. And maybe it helps the sitch, maybe not. Idk.

So I don't recommend anything I do from this point forward... lol.

Certainly you know your W better than we do. Bust On!

Hey T2! I was just checking to see if your W let you in on what had occurred during her breakthru IC session the other day. No, if she is sensitive to pressure, don't push her. Something is obviously on her mind since she described the session as huge. She's a thinker, she'll ponder on it and let you know when she's ready.�

Have a great weekend!

Quote:

Here's why...what helped me move past this anger part, which took a terrible toll on me physically (nothing like having a toilet bowl full of blood from a bleeding ulcer to get one to re-think things), was to just "try" understanding, looking at it from her POV, from her life experience. For example, my W was sexually abused as a child and young teenager by her dad, and he then abandoned her and the rest of the kids emotionally until 2 years or so before he died (which triggered W's mlc rumblings I believe)...well, how does that affect a girls development? I had a great childhood, so I had no idea. She was horridly shy and a wall flower as a teen and young adult, I was her 2nd "real" relationship...I had a very, very well mis-spent youth, so I had worked through a lot of stuff by the time we got m.

Point is, I want to try to maybe help you get some understanding. I need to understand everything, it's my engineering nature. Doesn't mean you have to change anything, forgive, have compassion, etc. Those are all your choices to do, or not do.

I would rather make those choices with understanding, so I knew for me I made the right choice.

There is a cause for every effect, right? We are living in the effect (mlc), I would want to know the cause, or likely causes/theories.

I just brought this over from THX's thread.

You really are an exceptional man T2. I hope you know that. And, I liked what you had to say about the egocentric stuff. I know I'm guilty of acting like the moral majority myself. You are a great example of patience, understanding and unconditional love. You're wife is a lucky woman, whether she is able to appreciate it or not right now.

Good Stuff. Thanks for the insight.

Heather

Wow Heather, thanks for bringing that over. I agree with you, T2 IS exceptional, and his W is exceptionally lucky to have him.

Hope you're having a nice weekend T. Please let us know how the Birthday Bouquet goes over with W. I think she'll be so pleased!

Hi guys and thank you...

It took a lot of work to get where I am and am going. As UR says, if you do the work, you will never regret it. This is so true.

Some interesting things in my sitch, but nothing to conclude, lol.

W is thinking about not going to IC anymore after her "huge" session...I wonder why...was the "huge" session "the core issue" and now on it's way to being resolved and she feels she can do her work on her own now? Or is it like all the years past, stops after a while because she doesn't want to do the work, for whatever reason, fear, etc? I don't know, I haven't asked yet. I am thinking about asking, because "showing effort" is an important "want" I have in order to continue. I'm sitting on that idea for a while, see what other things I can observe to find evidence of "effort".

On the other hand, we handed out Halloween candy together, and worked on the final decorations, candy procurement, etc as a team. W talked the whole time about her work, various other everyday things, I was the usual encouraging, no-fixit, validating...I even got to talk about some stuff! lol. In all, it was very good, pretty natural, at ease. Like two good friends.

She has started asking me about my day, is more communicative about herself, mood and whereabouts.

She still hasn't come back to the MBR, and still has her work clothes and such in boxes in the hall and in her huge 'work bag" with her food, snacks, etc. It's kinda like Raine's H's suitcases still packed in the guest room, so funny....but hey, she's a big girl, perfectly capable of making her own choices.

I am speculating that returning to the MBR, and/or being more touchy/huggy is a resistance point...if she does that, it would signal to me and the boys her intent. So in order to not get anyone's hopes up, ESPECIALLY the boys', she isn't going to do it until she is sure she can recommit. That's my theory, anyway. I'll use that until better evidence comes to light.

She is continuing reconnecting with the boys, especially her "buddy", the middle one. Taking more interest in the house, in the everyday life things, but gets tired and overwhelmed easily still. She has a lot going on, working for the first time in many years, all her issues, climbing out of the tunnel, and she has opened up some more, so I can say that she is trying to figure how she got where she is, the causes of this effect. So there is work being done. I always thank her for sharing, that it is helpful to me, and I hope her.

So, still in limbo, but my gut/intuition is still saying it might work out, there is a good probability of R. We'll see.

Otherwise, I am doing pretty darn good overall...sooo busy with work and the new expansion. And fall cleanup, and all the everyday things like homework, doctors visits, etc.

I have let her replay activities go, I am done with them, gone, whatever. And at peace. I even drop by PA OM's fb and his wife's, see how they are doing...I can tell he got busted from her fb postings...lots of stuff like LBS' and newly D people post. And they had their baby, so I reckon he is rather busy. I just look at what they share publically, haven't tried to friend them or anything like that, lol! Though the thought did cross my mind, just to mess with him, but it was a passing childish whim...better to leave dead dogs lying (HA!). If W is still dipping her toes in replay stuff, it is minimal, and my gut isn't bothered, so letting her find her own way out of that addiction. I could be totally wrong, and maybe my gut is broken (not likely), but if so, then I know what I will do, no questions.

Aside from my own internal self-validation and self-esteem, I have had enough outside validation from here, work, business meetings, etc, to know I will be just fine. That I am just fine. When Spring rolls around again, I will be planting a new garden, with work, with life in general, including a relationship, hopefully it'll be W. If not, that's okay too...love, want, but no "need" any longer. I have to remind myself to thank her for teaching me that I don't "need" her someday. She has freed me from "need". I truly am grateful to her for that.

But damn, I love and want her though!

Anyway, that's about it in my sitch.

You sound good, my friend. Exceptional, as previously noted. But T2, don't men "need" to feel needed?

T2,
You've done the hard and necessary work on yourself. Your w still has a ways to go. I think she was spooked by the issues from the last IC session and will need some time to think about them. In my opinion, she will need to work w/the IC a bit longer. She's still fragile and needs some hand holding in that department.

Overall, I can see the reconnections taking place at a nice pace. She's warming up to her children and her home. Yes, she's even warming up a bit towards you, but like most mlcers who return home, they keep their bags backed for a long time, just so that they know that they are ready to run if it is necessary. It's like a security blanket to them. One day very soon, she'll unpack those bags. DebM's husband was the same way and he eventually did unpack his.

I think she's baking up nicely and I know you get frustrated and want her back totally right now, but it takes time. You've done an excellent job up till now...keep thinking positive and dig for more patience.

Generally, yes. It is a want now, I want to be "useful", maybe that's a better way of stating it.

Thing is, I don't "need" her, or anyone really...but I do "want" her, "want" people. Its different.

Ah, T, you sound good. You have done the work. That is clear. You know this journey should never end. We should continue to look inside and make changes as needed. .

I agree with Job, I think your w got spooked at the IC. Maybe touched a nerve she isnt ready to deal with now. Hope she changes her mind on going back. I think she really needs to.

And I agree with you. No one needs another person. I dont want to feel needed. I want to feel wanted, useful. There is a difference.

I think that your wife is making her way out. In her own time, her own way.

You are doing exactly what you should be doing. Good on you.

Quote:

Brian: Please, please, please listen! I've got one or two things to say.

The Crowd: Tell us! Tell us both of them!

Brian: Look, you've got it all wrong! You don't NEED to follow ME, You don't NEED to follow ANYBODY! You've got to think for your selves! You're ALL individuals!

The Crowd: Yes! We're all individuals!

Brian: You're all different!

The Crowd: Yes, we ARE all different!

Man in crowd: I'm not...

All the talk about not NEEDING a R just seemed to call for this. Sorry.

Heather

Thanks Heather, that reminds me I haven't watched that in a while, think I'll put it on this weekend's agenda...

New thread time, it can be found here:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2400702&#Post2400702