Some interesting songs we all come up with, and they come up with, eh TVS...?
FY,
Ok, serious question, T. Knowing where you guys are now, how do you view the effect of your "I'm going to start the D process" talk with W from several weeks back?
That is really tough to quantify, FY...I see some improvement in how she interacts with me, I see effort...but I could look at things such as she hasn't started an therapy, I don't see her busting butt looking for paying work (which could be either good, or bad)...nothing regarding MC yet. Her memory has always been an issue, and throw mlc memory lack on top...well...maybe she doesn't even remember often...I just don't know if there is any obvious, tangible effect attributed to my saying I will file...there could be, it's just not in my face...sorry if that doesn't make much sense...
I don't want to expect anything, nor minimize her efforts. Maybe she is slowwwwly moving one way or the other...FWIW, my gut is feeling okay, and I trust it with picking up "impending doom" for sure.
I guess that it is just a fact, an option, for me now. She asked for more time, through the summer, more or less, so I will wait until fall and re-evaluate MY observations, her efforts, and MY feelings then (and there are certain strategic considerations for waiting as well should I file).
She knows I will if I choose to, she knows me well enough.
The other thing I have to keep in mind FY is that this weekend is the 6 months since end of PA, and the 6 months from end of last significant EA is in another 3 weeks...
So she is probably just getting the affair chemicals and such down to low levels to maybe start looking at things more realistically. Maybe. And assuming she has not gone back in some way into her replay activities significantly.
Until she breaks some silence In these subjects I just don't know. My path is the same for now.
T^2
Hmm... Sounding detached T. I see that as good, but I also see it as dangerous for her. She may not figure it out in time
Peace,
AJ
Glad to hear you are "keeping on" T, and not pursuing the D quite yet. I know that you'll be strong enough to file if you feel that you need to, but are equally strong enough to continue to give her time until that time. Last March, my H told me he was considering filing for D, and asked for more time like your W. He said that RT is pushing him to D me immediately and marry her, but he wanted time to decide whether it would be better for us to D, or to live together as best friends FOREVER, because what else could we expect at 60 years old (I expect a LOT more than a platonic friendship, sigh).... What a crazy nonsensical conversation, but he hasn't mentioned D since.
I agree that your W might be starting to look at things more realistically 6 months post PA and EA. Dawn Marie posted a link to a blog on male midlife crisis website on her thread yesterday. This man stated he suddenly woke up and asked himself what he was doing having an A, and stopped his replay activities overnight. But he said that it took a long time before he started to feel normal, and that after returning to his W he started cyling between depression and panic.
Maybe your poor W is just feeling post-replay depression. That would be a good thing!!
Thanks PON, AJ, Linda!
I do observe depression behaviors, Linda, and have throughout this once the initial high of "start of replay" passed.
I know that in W's case, it takes her a LONG time to get over things, a LONG time to decide anything, a LONG time to act...and a LONG time to let go of things (sometimes, if ever)... always has, and there isn't anything wrong with that. Just who she was, is.
Right now, I still have a reasonable hope that she can change, grow, lift the fog.
I still believe a new, good-to-great R is possible, if not guaranteed.
I still know she can run, it is a very real possibility.
"The path remains the same"
(a small reference to Led Zeppelin, since we were on a music kick for a minute there)
Well then...."an inspiration is what you are to me, inspiration, look and see." Yup!
T2, I like your style. Just sayin....
And of course, you are right, anything can happen with them.
I feel strongly, though, that your wife is going to make it through. She is still there, not pursuing a divorce, inching ever so slowly towards you.
I do wish she would get help for her depression. I know how debilitating it can be. The thing of that is that she has to get to wanting help on her own.
I think you have a healthy attitude about all this - hoping for the best, but, knowing you will be ok either way.
You are a shining example of love, patience and compassion. An honor to "know" you.
Thank you uRw...your posts are so calming, peaceful...
Sometimes I wish I got "subtle" better...probably there are things that slip under my radar (good or bad) that would give me more of an idea of what's up with W...but I miss them. But then again, watching the pot isn't very constructive either, idk.
Just doing my thing, when it's important enough it'll make itself visible to me I reckon...
Thanks for your kind words.
T, some people get subtle better than others. No matter. As you say, if it's important enough, it will show itself.
I saw your post about her taking long to make decisions, get over things, etc.
She needs to sift through so much stuff and then process it all. For someone who takes a long time to do things like that, it must be so daunting for her.
I know that it is hard for us to get our mind around what they must be going through. I've thought about how sad it must be to feel that they dont know how to be happy and to not know that it is within them.
I have said that depression is like swimming through mud. Exhausting and frustrating. Add in MLC and it must be so hard.
You are coming at this in exactly the right way, T. And you will know when you are ready to go in another direction. You will have no doubts.
Urw, that's a very succinct way to put that feeling. I too feel sorry for that in my ex. To not know peace and happiness for so long must be difficult. To feel like that to the point of frantic action must be quite a burden. It was tough to watch and still be there for so long without being able to help. My hats off to you T.
Life isn't that tough, but for some it must be tougher than I think
Peace,
AJ
You know AJ, I can't tell you how many times I have said to myself "Com'on babe, life isn't that bad or tough, you're making this harder than it needs to be". Not only through this journey, but before mlc.
But I haven't had serious depression often, and it was usually intense, but very short in duration. Not a long term deal. I can't imagine what it's like very well...I guess the closest would be the time following BD, and learning of and getting through the EA of phase 1 in 2009/10. Even then I would have enough okay or better moods to balance out the depressive periods.
That's why depression is on my reading list, to help me understand and help appropriately when asked. W does say that I am really good at it now. And when I think things like above sometimes? Ahh...The power of STFU...
T, I have suffered from depression since childhood. I know why and that helps. I have gotten help for it and no longer suffer from it. But I do have to keep on top of how I am feeling.
If you want to ask me any questions about it, I will answer as well as I can.
I know that it is difficult for people who havent suffered deeply or for long periods of time to understand.
It is as if you are trying to climb up a mountain with oil running down it. After awhile, it seems futile and you give up.
You know there is something wrong, but, you just dont have the energy to address it.
As I said, if there's anyway I can help, ask away.
I wonder if this is like that, U. From an outsider's perspective, I know I watched my ex "suddenly" get frantic and depressed. It was like she had a spring in her a**. Always going as if trying to outrun something. The IC mentioned something about her new found love of running. Said it was a metaphor as well
I wondered at the time if she was trying to get happy and didn't know how. Didn't know why she wasn't. Eventually she blamed me, said she was "done", moving on, and that I cheated on her (didn't, but it plays to the mindset.) I could see her fears and doubts and still can in the things she says. She prizes happiness above all else, considers herself "a little bit selfish" and "a new person" and then doesn't. It's been a conflict from the start. But there were hints from her that in hindsight might be construed as depressive related. She hid it well, but looking back there were "things". Behavior since then seems like she is still dealing with that and with the loss of the marriage. Still searching for that elusive happiness.
I'm not a mind reader, but it seems like it. It's why I say I hate that for her. Or for anyone that doesn't deal with it in any way other than total destruction and panic. It seems to make the price even higher when you do that.
T, your W is a lucky woman no matter what she does. To have been married to somebody with your reaction to the whole thing? She's a lucky woman to have you, even still.
Peace,
AJ
AJ, my depression manifested itself in different ways at different times in my life. I was a functioning depressive. Able to hide it from everyone til I couldnt anymore.
So, yes, there were times when I was running on all four cylinders trying to outrun the feelings.
I wondered at the time if she was trying to get happy and didn't know how. Didn't know why she wasn't.
That is exactly the feeling. You know something is wrong. You start to think, no matter what I do, I still feel bad. Eventually, there is just no energy to fight it.
I could see her fears and doubts and still can in the things she says.
I think that is depression and anxiety. ^^^^
She prizes happiness above all else, considers herself "a little bit selfish" and "a new person" and then doesn't.
And that is probably MLC ^^^.
Behavior since then seems like she is still dealing with that and with the loss of the marriage. Still searching for that elusive happiness.
I know that what she did cannot be excused with depression and MLC. I always say it doesnt give you a free pass on your actions. But, it can offer an explanation of sorts and leave room for compassion.
Depression is very debilitating. It can make you freefall. Sometimes it is hard to even lift your head up.
It takes everything you have to get through the day, hoping that the next thing is going to be the things that takes away the sadness.
But the only thing that is going to do that is hard work, therapy, and in some instances meds.
It's why I say I hate that for her. Or for anyone that doesn't deal with it in any way other than total destruction and panic. It seems to make the price even higher when you do that.
Yes, it sure does.
Thanks for taking the time U. That's exactly it. I do have compassion for her. I don't excuse her for her actions, but I do have compassion for what I saw and sometimes still have to see. She did briefly try meds. Seemed to help, but I suspect she got herself off of them as she doesn't believe in them. Or that she didn't need them any longer since it was my fault anyway
I'd have lost my mind and way if not for friends, family and the friends here. I have no doubt it wasn't easy on her. It wasn't for me either and I'm not in that state of mind. I'm sure it must really s*ck.
Peace,
AJ
No prob, AJ. That's too bad that she didnt continue taking meds. I didnt believe in them either. Until I had tried everything else without relief.
Not that they are the answer for everyone, but, they can help most. Along with therapy, exercise, meditation and most of all, working through it and wanting to get better.
No, it wasnt easy for you, I know.
I pray that she finds her way and gets help. No one should have to live like that.
It is so nice to read these things. My w openly admits she gets depressed. Especially during winter months. She also knows she has anxiety issues. She will blame her mother and even being isolated at home from being SAHM for 8 years. But... when she spews she discounts all of the above and blames me. Depression is very hard to deal with.. ugh
I think depression, whether mild or severe, is at the heart of most MLC. My W is mildly depressed per her admission, maybe much more. Much of her behavior can be seen as a means to deal with this depression. Excessive exercise and extreme sports is one way to escape the inner unhappiness. My W never drank much, now she drinks 3-4 nights per week. At least she usually stops after 2 drinks and doesn't get real drunk.
Some of her friends have suggested going to the Dr. or therapy and so forth, she still has not. I'm not sure that therapy would help in many of these cases.
T^2, keep up the wonderful work. Hopefully your W will realize what she has at some point and if not...... the work will make you a better person for wherever else life takes you!
Hard work but it will be worth it.
I wondered at the time if she was trying to get happy and didn't know how. Didn't know why she wasn't.
uR, thanks for sharing your perspective. I think it's very valuable in beginning to understand what others may be going thru.
I have not experienced depression myself but heard the words above almost verbatim from W when she first started IC. Her comment was something like " I have everything I have ever said that I wanted but I still can't be happy.... I must be broken and need some help getting fixed ..."
Thanks for sharing!
You are welcome, SF.
I do believe that depression is at the heart of a midlife crisis. The depression, along with whatever unresolved past issues, and lack of coping skills, leads to a crisis.
Good for your wife that she realized something was wrong.
Hi all,
Bust Friday for me, just now really able to catch up...
Regarding the depression topic, uRw is very correct, imo, especially the wanting to do the work part of conquering depression. This has, in my observation, been the tough part for W. Even in her own words, she had expected the meds to do the work for her, rather than just taking the edge off so that she could do the work. This is how she got on the maximum prescriptable dose of effexor. The "pharmapsych" just kept upping it when W would say it didn't take the depression away, and without any feedback from the family as to how W was doing. W has even said that she recognizes the depression, but is afraid of the work part involved. Maybe this is the hesitation in starting therapy, though the money issue is a fair excuse as well. But I have even asked my parents for money (putting my pride to the side) so it is available...she just needs to get to where she will do the work herself. Luckily her friends have told her that she needs therapy, which leaves me out of it, which is good right now, imo. T^2 does not need to be perceived as directing the show in any fashion. And I don't really want to to, I want her to do this, that would be best for her, imo. I just have to keep buying patience shovels...
As for me, seems I keep getting new issues and projects that trump the things that I want to do...like vehicles breaking, kid issues, etc...just laughing (usually) and rolling with it...nothing is the end of the world...my guitars will be there tomorrow, so will the mountains, nobody is going to be harmed if I don't get the fall brussel sprouts planted...lol.
One interesting thing talking with W this evening (and a "regular couple" talk it was, tone and everything), we were discussing S3 wanting a Corgi (FTR, we have half a zoo already...) and one of W's concerns was that the dog would be alone all day once school started and she had started working, and the winter, sounding as if she plans on being here then...almost as if nothing has been/is going on...verrry interesting...Snodderly is so right, they do tell accidentally, if you listen carefully...
I guess I can be good at subtle, when I am paying attention and not in some absentminded professor mode, or purposely not watching the pot boil...
Make a great weekend all!
T^2
Oh, and if anyone has some experience with Corgi's, I would be ever so appreciative of any sharing...
Hey T. When I realized I was in bad shape, I fought the idea of meds for a long while. I was in therapy and he suggested medication. But he wasnt the right therapist so I wasnt open to it.
When I found the right therapist, she explained that you cant just take medication. That talk therapy coupled with meds was the best plan of action for me. BTW, I had tried natural remedies to no avail.
Anyway, I still balked for a bit. And then one day, I just realized I didnt want to live that way anymore.
My therapist also explained that you have to get to a point where you want to be better at all costs and I was at that point.
It wasnt until it all came together for me and I was willing to do the work that I knew I was going to be ok.
It wouldnt have worked before that. I worked really hard. I went to therapy, I found a really good doctor and after several different tries and combinations, finally found the right meds. I meditated and read and prayed.
No matter what the meds, if she doesnt want to work to get better, she wont. And the pharmapsych didnt do their job. It is imperative to find the right doctors and therapists.
You are right, it is best for you to not be involved in forcing the issue. The key to this is she has to want it.
I can give you a discount on the shovels as they are going to be in my new business line.
And good on you for realizing that all will be well without the brussel sprouts. LOL
It's great that you had a nice talk with her, T. And she does sound like she isnt going anywhere. Keep your ears and heart open, my friend. And ayep, no watching the pot boil.
So AJ,
What exactly did you mean by this?:
Hmm... Sounding detached T. I see that as good, but I also see it as dangerous for her. She may not figure it out in time wink
Curious cats want to know...
T2,
I have a neighbor who has two Corgis and they are cute as can be and are on the small side for dogs. They are very intelligent and get along with children quite well. Her dogs don't appear to be "yappy", but do let you know if someone comes to the door, etc. They are known as "herding" dogs. If it's any help, Queen Elizabeth has corgis and they pretty much rule the Buckingham Palace.
uRw,
W is on Wellbutrin now, and seems to be working to take the edge off...W understands this is their purpose now...and the therapist she was looking at does do EMDR and DBT, which appears to be effective for BPD, and thus for its cousin, HPD. W gets now that part of it is her thinking, her mindset, her self-talk...she doesn't have the many tools or practice to challenge that right now. But she is trying to find them. She has found some good meditation CD's, and the "Be still and know exercise" one for PTSD that I suggested a long time ago.
But yeah, staying out of it, I finally figured out the things you said. She has to get there. I wish I knew this 7 years ago, my trying to fix and her not listening, trying, etc really frustrated me, which I let change me and how I acted towards her...but I get it now...a benefit of this journey, eh?
I'll take all the shovels I can get...lol.
But I love, absolutely love, fresh brussels off the stem, roasted with olive oil, bacon and garlic, sea salt and chipolte pepper.... best part of my thanksgiving dinner...
You rock uRw...just sayin'....
T, I am so glad your w is getting her mind around what she needs to do. Tough stuff, this. I feel for her and for you.
And you did the best you knew how 7 years ago. Now you know more, so you are doing more. And yea, a benefit of this journey for sure.
Not a big fan of brussel sprouts, but, oh that sounds delish. Might have to try that.
Ah, a man who loves to grow veggies and cook. Good stuff, my friend.
You rock, too, T.
Thank you Snodderly, This is good to know. I do worry about our older dog feeling displaced. Think I could train the Corgi to keep the mlc'er and teenagers in line? You know, herd them back when they stray too far????
LOL!
T I don't think your W is going anywhere. If she starts tearing down the wallpaper and packing it up, then worry. She may have some thoughts of running in off moments, but when she is relaxed and talking from the heart, there is only one place she sees herself being.
Hey I speak a little AJ. What he is saying is that you are becoming detached enough that you could feel comfortable about walking away before W is awake enough to realize what she is losing and let's you. She'll figure it out, but it will be too late. You'll be gone. Just my two cents. Peace.
AJ let me know how I did. I've been practicing.
Love brussel sprouts roasted! Bacon?! Awesome! Okay got to try that. Still have half a pack in the fridge.
Keep going, Jedi Master. I'm following you. If I step in a pothole, you're getting the blame.
That's the thing about AJ's posts, I always feel like there is some hidden gold nugget of wisdom hidden in plain sight, that I am not quite getting, delivered in a casual, unassuming way...brings back a martial arts master I had once...
If I step in a pothole, you're getting the blame
That's okay, I'm used to it by now... :P
Oh mercy, don't do that!
"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."
-Zen saying
If I step in a pothole, you're getting the blame
That's okay, I'm used to it by now... :P
See she would be absolutely nuts to leave. What man would ever be okay with taking that blame?
LOL " Mercy" Trying Elvis on now?
Kill the Buddha...Okay I'll keep meditating, but I was sure I had the right key this time.
I agree with Bea's translation T^. "Hey I speak a little AJ. What he is saying is that you are becoming detached enough that you could feel comfortable about walking away before W is awake enough to realize what she is losing and let's you. She'll figure it out, but it will be too late. You'll be gone. Just my two cents. Peace."
I think we LBS turning into WAS is a big danger for all our MLCers. You seem to be amazingly determined to wait it out, as do most of the people on here. But I see the frustration level, the desperation level, rising in a couple of sitches I follow, to the point where I fear that by the time their MLCer wakes up, they will be gone, with nothing left in them to forgive the MLCer for all the pain they've been thru. But I think your W will "come around" way before you ever hit that point.
Thanks for the recipe. I was raised on frozen brussels sprouts and hated them, until my H grew them in the garden and I tasted fresh ones for the first time. Yummy! Broccoli is good cooked in bacon and garlic too.
It seems us giving up on them may be even more common than the other way around. Many of the vets here have done exactly that.
T, you not only seem amazingly determined to wait W's crisis out, but also have an amazing way of dealing with it while still leading a fulfilling life... Like I've mentioned before, leading us all by example. Great job, and thanks bro!
FY the hard thing to see is that for those vets, their mlcers are still in it, even now. They're still bat-shite crazy. That's when I had my wake up call. See I had read those books. I had my fantasy version set. H will go from this point to this point to this and come off the conveyor belt all nice and perfect and shiney. Here we see the reality. Some don't ever get off. Some are content to turn and walk the other direction so they can stay in place. Some get off it and head in a completely new direction in a whole new life and persona. I've decided to leave the fairy tale version in the books.
Love your conveyor belt analogy Raine. I was always aware that there was a chance that my H wouldn't get off the conveyor belt, but thought it was a slight chance. And I also was aware it was more likely he'd fall off the damned conveyor belt, all dented and banged up, rather than arrive at the end "all nice and perfect and shiney." But one thing I always believed was that deep down in his heart, he loves me. That he does not leave because he loves me. And if he ever wakes up, he will love me again. Sitches like rH gave me such hope. And yours seems to be getting better too. But.... who knows. I guess it's stupid to give up hope after all these years. Sort of like giving up your faith in God just because you got cancer or something. It's just so hard though, thinking that if you just stay on the bus together long enough, you'll wind up in the same destination, even though you're two passengers living two separate lives side by side. But then you realize that your MLCer has a transfer ticket hidden in his pocket; he's just not sure what route he plans to take yet.
Yep, Linda and Raine are right. The threat I see is that you, T will have moved on and figured it was over. You'll be so detached that there is no going back. But that's not any time soon
I do realize you are very committed and I applaud that. I was the same way, but it didn't work out on my end. She married OM and for me, that was a deal breaker. The rest I could have overcome, but after that, it's just ridiculous to hang on. At least for me it would be unhealthy. I have hope for her, and I do hope she gets to a peaceful state at some point. For her sake. For my kids sake. For me her peace is not going to make a difference at this point except to at least make all of the drama somewhat worth it in the long run.
I think you'll be one of the success stories, T. I think you already are, but it'll get better and more pronounced. Some luck was involved, but you have done a great deal of work and it seems to be a good thing.
Brussell sprouts? I was brought up on frozen ones as well. Hated them. Until I tried them fresh and with bacon, walnuts and salt. MMMMMmmmm. That's good stuff.
Respectfully,
AJ
FY the hard thing to see is that for those vets, their mlcers are still in it, even now. They're still bat-shite crazy. That's when I had my wake up call. See I had read those books. I had my fantasy version set. H will go from this point to this point to this and come off the conveyor belt all nice and perfect and shiney.
The danger to this fantasy thinking is you'll end up frantically trying to grab all that candy off the conveyor belt like Lucy and Ethel!
It seems us giving up on them may be even more common than the other way around. Many of the vets here have done exactly that.
FY, You know how I feel about you. I felt that I needed to address this. I know that I and some of my vet friends, did not give up on our spouses.
It has been six years since my BD. And I honestly feel that my xh will probably not ever come through the crisis - for a lot of reasons. I think he is unwilling to do the work, unwilling to look within and face his demons. I think it is easier for him to walk away. I think it is too hard for him to admit something is wrong.
I forgave him a long time ago. He knows I did. I pray for him and wish that he does come through this. I did not give up. I let him go because I loved him enough to want him to find happiness and to come out of this whole and I needed to take care of me and our son.
He knows that if he ever needs me, I will be there for him. He knows that I wish him well on his life's journey. He also knows that when I love someone, I always love them.
But it is so true, what Raine said, "
Some don't ever get off. Some are content to turn and walk the other direction so they can stay in place. Some get off it and head in a completely new direction in a whole new life and persona."
And so, because of that there is nothing left to do, but to let them go and move forward.
And sometimes, it is more than one can take. Some of these MLCers and their paths of destruction are horrific. So, it is not up to me to judge anyone's decision to stand or not, to quit or not. We, each of us, have to walk our own journey.
Oh AJM, you poor man. I'm sure you WERE very committed, but I think having one's spouse marry their OP would be a deal breaker for anyone. My H has told me that he believes his OW only wants to marry him to get a green card and would probably divorce him within a year, but in the same conversation said he would marry her anyway because he doesn't want to hurt her. Arrrggghhhh! But if he does D me and marry that little tramp, I can tell you I won't be hanging around for another year to see what happens.
Wonka you always make me laugh, remembering Lucy and Ethel stuffing themselves with candy off that conveyor belt
And uR, aw we all know you have never given up on your xH, to hope that he will come out of his insanity at least enough to be able to reconcile with your son. Bea too.
"And sometimes, it is more than one can take. Some of these MLCers and their paths of destruction are horrific. So, it is not up to me to judge anyone's decision to stand or not, to quit or not. We, each of us, have to walk our own journey."You guys are all so strong - uR, Bea, AJ, Cadet, Kaffe, Snodderly. We can tell by your characters that you did not give up the fight easily. Thanks for sticking around to help us!
T2, I had to look up HPD as I had never heard of it. Was your wife diagnosed with it or is it something you have figured out?
Funny thing about it is, Linda, I consider myself very lucky. I was devastated to be sure. I tried my but off to make things work. My ex was set on leaving and wasn't to be deterred.
But if I've learned one thing here, it's that I'm very lucky. I was fortunate to have a good marriage for almost all our years together. I was fortunate to have two great kids. I have me, and I have my sanity. I'm generally a very happy kind of guy naturally, and that's not gone either. In fact, I'm still the same me except a little older and a little less smart than when it started
I can see how it would be easy for the LBS to become a WAS. To make the pain stop. To take control of their own lives that have been in a collateral tail-spin somebody else started. I'm lucky to see that perspective and to have fought it. Not perfectly, but eventually. I'm lucky to see what forgiveness is really about and how murky that can be. I could have easily become bitter and angry and stayed that way. It wouldn't take anything but apathy to be like that, honestly. Knowing I wasn't alone in this story and knowing it's an old story helped me see that. This board helped with that a lot.
Nope, I feel very fortunate. Could have been worse. I remember being worried she would kill herself at one point. I think she considered it. I'm very glad I took the steps I took at the time and I'm glad she tells me often how happy she is (not like I believe it, but she tries and is more coherent now at least). I loved her deeply and it would be against my own belief to have walked away or to wish her ill. I'm glad I didn't and don't. As unpleasant as it was and sometimes still is with her, it could have been worse - she could have stayed and been doing the same things. (not really. I wouldn't have kept that going forever either.)
No matter what happens in life, we're responsible for us. We came into this world alone, naked and screaming. I intend to do the same on the way out
And I'll be happy (generally) on the way there. I've learned somebody else doesn't bring me happiness. They also do not bring me unhappiness. That's my reaction.
T still has a chance and I'm sure he's glad he didn't walk away. I'm sure it was close many times and may still happen at some point. But it won't be because he doesn't love her or because he didn't try everything he possibly could - including patience and more patience. I'm sure Mrs T is a very lucky woman to have somebody like that fighting for her and with her, and not walking away. Nobody would blame him if he did, but they may call him crazy for staying. At least for now they may. Later they will call him a hero, especially if things continue to get better. I think they will continue to get better.
But it's been often that I've seen when the tide shifts, that it is more than the LBS can take (one more change?!?) and often that's when it gets tough. T seems to know that and has a way of dealing. I never got that chance, but not sure if I would have seen it if I did. It's a tough road.
Peace,
"Lucky"
It seems us giving up on them may be even more common than the other way around. Many of the vets here have done exactly that.
FY, You know how I feel about you. I felt that I needed to address this. I know that I and some of my vet friends, did not give up on our spouses.
It has been six years since my BD. And I honestly feel that my xh will probably not ever come through the crisis - for a lot of reasons. I think he is unwilling to do the work, unwilling to look within and face his demons. I think it is easier for him to walk away. I think it is too hard for him to admit something is wrong.
I forgave him a long time ago. He knows I did. I pray for him and wish that he does come through this. I did not give up. I let him go because I loved him enough to want him to find happiness and to come out of this whole and I needed to take care of me and our son.
He knows that if he ever needs me, I will be there for him. He knows that I wish him well on his life's journey. He also knows that when I love someone, I always love them.
But it is so true, what Raine said, "
Some don't ever get off. Some are content to turn and walk the other direction so they can stay in place. Some get off it and head in a completely new direction in a whole new life and persona."
And so, because of that there is nothing left to do, but to let them go and move forward.
And sometimes, it is more than one can take. Some of these MLCers and their paths of destruction are horrific. So, it is not up to me to judge anyone's decision to stand or not, to quit or not. We, each of us, have to walk our own journey.
uRw, I completely understand and agree with what you posted here.
"Giving up on them" was a poor choice of words on my part. I apologize for any discomfort I caused with my comment.
Fy, no need to apologize at all, sweetie. As I said, you know how highly I think of you.
Many of my friends on here stood for so long and dealt with so much and sometimes there is nothing left to do but to move forward.
I just felt I needed to explain for any people who are new to this.
Fy, I know that you would not ever say anything with the intent to cause discomfort to anyone.
It's all good, my friend.
Thanks uRw. For being you.
(her legs, feet and toes are some of my favorite body things about her)!!
I'm with you on this T! Wife wore shorty shorts on our bike ride today. While it may have frustrated a lessor man, it actually gave me inspiration to stand!
Sorry... back to your regular DB topics...
AJ, I've been reading your post above over for the past couple of days. You sound like an amazing man, very T^2-ish
Thank you for staying on this forum to help those of us still muddling thru this insanity. You are, indeed, lucky and blessed!
I have had a lot of people call me crazy for sticking out this out, including my own MIL. Looking forward to being seen as a heroine once H de-fogs himself! Thanks!
So T^, what did you guys decide about allowing your son to get a corgi? It DOES sound as if it's herding ability would be able to keep that crew of yours in line! This whole conversation does make it sound as if your W doesn't have any plans to go anywhere! Did you get those brussels planted this weekend? Cars repaired? Carry on......
So T^, what did you guys decide about allowing your son to get a corgi? It DOES sound as if it's herding ability would be able to keep that crew of yours in line! This whole conversation does make it sound as if your W doesn't have any plans to go anywhere! Did you get those brussels planted this weekend? Cars repaired? Carry on......
I've been wondering this too, T^2, and how you are.
Well we decided that we just couldn't take on anymore responsibility right now, both cost and time...this is a tricky time. I am pretty sure that part of W's mlc thing is the responsibility factor, so trying really hard to keep from adding to it right now, until she is in a better place, or gone. So no Corgi, S3 took it pretty well and was bounced back in a few hours. Truck diagnosed, but not repaired yet. No new planting til later (just some arugula and fast growing cool weather stuff...too hot here right now and again trying to keep the stress and responsibility factors lowered).
A quiet weekend, I was surprised again that W did not work Saturday, and she worked a shorter shift Sunday. Not reading much into it past she was tired, as she did sleep a lot (maybe the depression? idk). She spent a lot of time listening to meditation tapes/CDs and EFT stuff on the web as far as I could tell. Still not tons of communication but she was pleasant and such, informing me and the kids of things as needed.
I did spend some time pondering the "done" question, what scenarios I would be, etc...things like her moving out, or obviously back into replay activities hardcore, or getting the next OM "lined up" sort of things. Also questions like what the future R might look like, would any changes in her be problematic, would I see and live things that I want in a R, etc. AJ's posts always make me think, and something 2 out of 3 S's asked me spurred it on as well...(I don't want to post what that question was, it's kinda heartbreaking, just in case some read this). The closer you get to the end, the more tempting quitting gets, eh? It is good to process this and get it out of my system so I can be better focused again.
So, for operational purposes only, I'm rolling with the "the silence of the spouse is imperative" from the "Stages" doc, going with some depression/withdrawal stage, whether part of the acceptance stage cycle or not I can't tell, but it is a working model right now until I know differently.
It is tough at this stage as I have seen some positive things, and really want to speed things up...which I know I shouldn't, and really can't, do.
and something 2 out of 3 S's asked me spurred it on as well...(I don't want to post what that question was, it's kinda heartbreaking, just in case some read this). The closer you get to the end, the more tempting quitting gets, eh? It is good to process this and get it out of my system so I can be better focused again.
And that really is the point. To get the thinking of it done now before you are faced with the decision and have to make it on the fly. I do honestly think, even though I wasn't in that position (so take it for what it's worth) that you have a really good shot. I think your W is a very very lucky woman. And I think you'll make your choices from a very well informed position. And very well thought out.
I think it's a good idea to focus more on what the future R might look like vs. the rest of the "noise".
I suspect a lot of the same ideas go through her mind about you go through her mind and she'll need time to work those out.
I also think you realize by now that you can only do what you can, and have to let the rest play out. She has choices and so do you. But now is the time for more patience than you've had to date.
And I think you're up to the task. Still a long road to go, but I think you have it in you.
AJ
Hey T. I am sorry your sons asked you some stuff that was hard to here.
Being tired and sleeping a lot - huge part of depression.
I just wanted to say that while I understand you wanting to be prepared, I am not so sure it serves you well at this time to get ahead of yourself too much.
I think you know what you will and wont accept and that's good. I think you know what kind of relationship you want and will expect should she turn towards you in R.
Other than that, you dont know how it will play out so it's best to concentrate on what you are doing now.
I agree with AJ, as I often do, that you have an excellent handle on this and have a really good chance of this winding up well.
You just keep to the plan, my friend. Tweak it when you must. Leave it in His capable hands and just live.
Thanks AJ and uR...you guys rock!
I know I have a tendency to get ahead of myself...just part of me that works rather well in the work world and is habitual. Too much chess growing up maybe??
I appreciate your input, thank you
Sorry, tired tonight so not saying things quite how I would prefer...I DO appreciate everyone's thoughts and advice, more than I can say....
T2 you do zero pursuit of your W? Just curious. The last week my W has been very pleasant to me. Very eerie. I try to lower my expectations because I now understand any expectations sets you up for resentment. My D recently started sleeping in her own bed and it is so tough for me not to roll over and physically touch the W. Actually sometimes I do it in my sleep and not even realize it. She calls me the groper
Hi PON,
If you mean "physical" pursuit, then yes, I do not pursue that way at all. She doesn't sleep in the MBR anymore, so I don't have to worry about semi-conscious slip-ups, completely protected there...
I am trying to work the friendship thing, treating her well, but no talk pursuit...letting her lead and control the distance. She knows what the boundaries are now, I have a pretty clear idea of hers from all the people and info here in the forum, so we really don't cross each others anymore.
It's tough when you the "nice" return, eh? i have learned that it changes, so you are wise to keep expectations at zero.
T2 for me it is extremely tough for me when the nice W returns. I really try to lower expectations. Although the last few nights I know in my sleep I've made physical contact with her. From the support on this forum I am now not sure my W is MLC. She certainly very perimenopause/hormonal. Which what I've learned is when they take over there bodies they sometimes don't even know. I don't know why I get so spun out when it does change because with my W pretty predictable. Hormones kick in and she hates me etc.. Very predictable. I am getting much better at not reacting. My sponsor is really helping me become selfless and not selfish. The last week has been enjoyable. almost pre-vacation nice.
Idk, I am to the point now where when "nice" W is in the house, I enjoy it to the max and am thankful...BUT, I don't expect it to continue (right now) and when she changes, I roll with the dance and get busy with my own stuff, the kids, etc. and don't let HER mood/issues determine my mood/happiness most of the time now.
Does your W know of the hormonal effects on her perceptions, behavior, etc? My W does the past year or so and "catches" herself before too much has gone on. She may still be grumpy, angry, etc, but doesn't take it out on the family anymore.
She has some prescription photo-hormones, wellbutrin and this herbal supplement called estroven (that supplement has made a HUGE difference, per W and per the rest of us). She is working with her ob/gyn/hormone docs to monitor levels and such, and get info from women docs who have gone through this themselves.
Main thing is to remember that she is responsible for herself and actions, you are responsible for yours...it took me quite a while to
apply this consistently...but what a difference in MY life, coping, growing once I did.
hang in there!
edit:
photo-hormones should be proto-hormones...
T2 funny thing last night she made a comment about her "end of the month friend" coming when it wants and all over the place. We have been joking around more lately and I just said "[censored] getting old doesn't it"
My W won't even take advil and I am pretty sure even if she went to OB and the OB said take this she wouldn't. Don't know why just how she is. For example her Vit D level was at 9. Should be in high 30's. She does nothing about it. Even though this is linked to depression etc.
So what I'm learning and had trouble with for very long time is this is out of my control. I also try to get busy when W turns into Cranky W or I hate you W. I still get spun out but I am really early on in my Alanon program. it has been a huge help but I have so much work to do here.
Honestly I am not sure if she has self awareness. I know others see it. her mother etc. Problem is I can't bring it up really. She hits the roof if I do. but it truly is blantantly obvious. When I have brought it up in the past she will say its because I'm trying and when I don't feel it anymore I give up. (trying to have feelings for me etc..) I don't know if she sees it herself. She hasn't opened up to me about it. For example after vacation she started doing this again for no apparent reason (although Im learning air travel can trigger stuff etc.)
The other thing I noticed is when she is super nice she stops hiding her phone. That is why I suspect some EA. Like for 2 1/2 months she been hiding phone and then boom its out in the open and not hiding a thing. Even will start telling me who is texting her if it is later in the evening (I never ask, she just tells me)
The whole thing is weird
also did you ever tell your W goto your OB because you're all over the place?
PON, just a thought on your last comment.....
In my situation, both myself and MC suggested that she check in w/OB on the possibility that it was a contributing factor.
Was not received well and to this day W has refused to acknowledge that hormonal changes could be any part of the issue....
So from my experience, limited on only my scenario, my thought would be that going down that path for your W has to be her decision......
Stay strong!
Semp I 2000% agree. A few years ago I went down this path and it lead to physical separation.
For example. Her friend is overdue by a 5 days. Last night she told me her left eye was twitching all day long. Today when out with the kids she had major migraine hit her. Basically blind for hour. She doesn't connect the dots of her friend to migraines. It is very odd how they go into refusal. In my W's case it doesn't matter because she won't take vitamins or anything to help her. She has also blamed her migraines on me in the past because migraines are caused by stress and being in a bad marriage is stressful. Even though she felt great for the last few days. also her sensitivity to smells right before a migraine hits is absolutely mind blowing to me. I sincerely feel for her. I would hate to be going through any of what she is experiencing but as you said it is something she has to figure out on her own.
one time she blamed her migraines on me moving back to the master bedroom after we reconciled
OMG my W for the first time via txt admitted her migraine triggered by hormones. I didn't know what to say. I just gave her sympathy and made a soft joke
In my sitch W figured it out herself with the docs, due to other issues of ob/gyn nature, they did a hormone level test. And there it was. It also started some counseling on what this meant in her life and such, initiated by the docs and W, since they specialize in this field, they do much more than "here's your test results, here's a prescription, bye-now".
Main thing...it wasn't ME who brought it up...very important.
The closest I came was saying something like, "How your acting sorta reminds me of how you were after S1 was born, remember that?" But I do usually know when it's a "good time" to drop pseudo-suggestions in her realm for her to consider...like planting seeds. But I do it VERY sparingly.
PON, one thing seems to be that they have to figure out their stuff themselves, how many times have we heard it here? How about in your program?
Tough lesson for me to learn and truly implement, but I am glad I did...took the stress/anxiety level down quite a bit for me. Still have to remind myself to STFU though... lol
for her to actually txt me and say "must be hormonal" is absolutely nuts. She never does it. I just made a joke about something her mother said last week. I didn't know what to say. I probably could've said "you're probably right" but I was in shock lol. I also try not to offer to much help believe it or not. In the past I would be like do you need me to leave work etc.. That got viewed as "you like me being sick"
Yes for me STFU is the utter most difficult thing for me to do.
Yes my program reminds me they have to figure it out all on their own. I don't make any suggestions anymore. I use to say goto your OB etc or try to fix her. She actually did a hormone test based on me pushing for it. I honestly try to completely stay out of it but try to be compassionate. It is a very tough balance.
LOL. You're a brave brave man for even considering telling her she may be hormonal or pre-menapausal (not that I'm any better.) At least do that from a distance
In seriousness, sure it could easily be a contributing factor. But as T said, she is responsible for her actions and for herself. Regardless of the underlying reason. She has to figure it out for herself and you will be the last person that can tell her. Or at least that she'll listen to about such things.
Peace,
AJ
Oh boy, are you ever right, AJ. This might be too much info but funny story.
Let's say I would get "hormonal" every month. Didnt realize how I acted.
So, xh goes on a business trip. Sits next to two women talking about it. A light bulb goes off in his head.
COmes home and tells me he knows what my problem is.
Let's just say he heard some words that might make a sailor blush. LOL!
Truth is, he was right. That was a large part of my problem. But I had to figure that out for myself and I did.
Here's the thing, boys, when it comes to depression or hormones or anything debilitating, having someone, fix it or try to fix it takes away our power. And other people see things before we see them ourselves.
It is all part of the process for us to figure it out.
Because if someone is telling us we are broken in some way - it tends to pis# us off. LOL!
Really though, the awakening has to come from the person in order for it to be dealt with.
So, save yourselves and get the heck out of the way.
I don't speak for T, but I work in a field where I have to identify patterns. I'm good at it.
I made that mistake before with the ex. I noticed a "pattern" and pointed it out.
I can confirm it pis##d her off
AJ
I got thrown out of house for pointing it out. Now I just try to stfu
I have been making a living for a long time recognizing patterns, lol, but have learned, to paraphrase an old Fleetwood Mac song:
"I keep my patterns to myself"
T^2, I'm glad you had an uneventful weekend, MLC-wise
I sort of agree with what you described
"So, for operational purposes only, I'm rolling with the "the silence of the spouse is imperative" from the "Stages" doc, going with some depression/withdrawal stage, whether part of the acceptance stage cycle or not I can't tell, but it is a working model right now until I know differently.' She sounds a lot like my H. He had a crazy 2 year EA replay period, then became horribly withdrawn from me and life in general, for a whole year. I hope that your W will move on soon, into acceptance. From what reachingHigher says, that is still a difficult stage at times.
PON, as I've mentioned to T^2 in the past, peri-menopause can be a awful time for a woman, due to the hormonal imbalances. I could not sleep, I could not concentrate or think clearly, would burst into tears at the slightest provocation, I felt horrible. I cannot imagine going thru that in addition to being in MLC. Your wife might think that she is too young at 41, but mine started around 40 and I was in full menopause by 44. My GYN put me on low dose birth control pills, and I went back to normal within weeks.
That being said, there is absoloutely nothing you can do about it! T^2 said
"PON, one thing seems to be that they have to figure out their stuff themselves, how many times have we heard it here? How about in your program?" The fact that she texted you that her migraine might be due to hormones is great. You just validate ("you could be right W") and step out of the way!
They have to figure it out themselves. M H and TVS's H are both chronically ill, and refuse to take their medication. I worry so much about my H, but he does not want me to be involved in his health (his Russian OW is directing that
) so I STFU. Stand back watching him get sicker and sicker. It is very hard.
uR said it very well
"Here's the thing, boys, when it comes to depression or hormones or anything debilitating, having someone, fix it or try to fix it takes away our power. And other people see things before we see them ourselves." Good luck to you!
My W has a tiny hole in heart. Nothing that needs repair but... that being said she can't take birth control due to high risk of blood clots. Either way Linda well said. nothing I can do. She needs to figure it all out on her own.
Thank you Linda, it helps to see from someone's real life experience. Ah, the joys of mid-life, eh?
Well, something is different with W. Though maybe my work stress is affecting my perceptions. There is just a different "vibe" about her. She told me of buying "work" clothes, and how she decided to just get interview things now, then when she knew her assignment, then appropriate clothes, as no point in getting "office work" clothes if she gets a "jeans casual" assignment.
The jewelry box on her dresser is not there anymore, this box contained her wedding rings, a pic of me and S1 from a very happy time in the past, some other jewelry things I don't remember. I know this from when I snooped way back in the beginning. The rings have been on her finger since May, still there, and I did see the pics on the counter in the kitchen a while ago. The other "regular" jewelry box is still where it has been. Looked like she was sorting through her clothes again. And her music has changed from pop to classical/ambient/NPR music, like when she moved back into the MBR last year (and moved out again in November/December last year).
Got a "feeling" (yes, a feeling, not facts, lol) that something had maybe been decided, or that she wants to say something...just a demeanor change...and again, MY impressions could be off due to work stress, physical discomfort due to my injury, and other stuff right now...I am operating in a higher stress/anxiety mode (though not bad at all) so I can be in a higher alert mode, looking for the next problem/shoe to drop. As detached as I seem to be able to manage most of the time, I still get spells of "un-detached"...lol.
She had also left some of her journaling open out on the table, I started to look at it standing above it, see if my name was in there, she walked in and saw...I apologized and said that I didn't make out anything, since I didn't have my reading glasses on...and that is true...I made out just one word in the big block of text. Interesting that she didn't put it away after that, but I made sure to avoid going anywhere near the table.
I did end up later telling her she looked nice, and she did, which also made me wonder things (but I have learned that women do that just for themselves a lot, so not wondering too much). I delivered it, grrr, like a shy 12 year old boy, I was so uncomfortable not wanting to pressure or what. But in a way, that IS me, since I am not a player kinda guy, pretty unassuming and respectful. Of course later I found it ironic that that was how I was in the beginning of our R, "afraid" to say it and get rejected along with the above. I think I saw a "good" reaction to it, idk.
So I wouldn't hover about trying to figure out what was up, I left for the evening, got out of my own way. Hung out at my office, watching a movie.
So my gut isn't telling me much, good or bad, I hope it ain't broken right now...lol.
I guess this is a journal entry, comments appreciated as always.
Man, what a journey still.
T^2
Hmm T, you are pretty tuned in to your W, I doubt if work or injury stress is skewing your perception. How long have you been noticing these changes? The photos on the kitchen counter, rings, clothes, and music all sound like she has come to some kind of resolution or place of peace in her mind. I'd be interested to hear the reaction of someone more discerning than I am, but it sounds positive to me.
Women do like to look nice for themselves, for other women and for men, so no help there, but I'm sure with your sweet unassuming wonderful DBing T2 manner, she appreciated your compliment, rather than feeling pressured by it. Have you tried any more physical contact? I tried touching my H's shoulder yesterday when I passed him and got glared at. Still too soon I guess.
I saw that big fire in CA, T. Does your son expect to be deployed there? And how DO you feel? Sorry, I'd forgotten you'd been injured.
I think your perceptions are correct. Something big/new/different IS going on in her world. Instead of getting out of the way, what do you think would happen if you stayed busy nearby, you know, just to give her a chance to feel comfortable opening up to you?
Get the White Lab Coat and goggles out!
Well, something is different with W. Though maybe my work stress is affecting my perceptions. There is just a different "vibe" about her.
I think you would know. I do think you are picking up on something. Comparing to my sitch, in January, when H made an appointment with the doctor, I had been picking up on these "different" vibes for a while. They are finally willing to so something for themselves. The jewelry box on her dresser is not there anymore, this box contained her wedding rings, a pic of me and S1 from a very happy time in the past, some other jewelry things I don't remember. I know this from when I snooped way back in the beginning. The rings have been on her finger since May, still there, and I did see the pics on the counter in the kitchen a while ago. The other "regular" jewelry box is still where it has been. Looked like she was sorting through her clothes again.
It makes me wonder if the actual jewelry box was "given" to her by someone else and she didn't want it around. There is some reason it is removed. And her music has changed from pop to classical/ambient/NPR music, like when she moved back into the MBR last year (and moved out again in November/December last year).
I think the music factor is significant. My H's taste in music has reflected his joinery all along. Now he's got a mix -- a little of MLC music still mixed in but it doesn't drive him like it used to. Got a "feeling" (yes, a feeling, not facts, lol) that something had maybe been decided, or that she wants to say something...just a demeanor change...
Demeanor changes clue us in at the beginning that something is "off". Why shouldn't we notice when something is "on"? I would not try any physical advances due to her background. I'd wait for those "appropriate" and "obvious" clues she gives off. She will want you and you'll know it. She had also left some of her journaling open out on the table, I started to look at it standing above it, see if my name was in there, she walked in and saw...I apologized and said that I didn't make out anything, since I didn't have my reading glasses on...and that is true...I made out just one word in the big block of text. Interesting that she didn't put it away after that, but I made sure to avoid going anywhere near the table.
fantastic job! Respecting her privacy in a huge way. I did end up later telling her she looked nice, and she did, which also made me wonder things (but I have learned that women do that just for themselves a lot, so not wondering too much). I delivered it, grrr, like a shy 12 year old boy, I was so uncomfortable not wanting to pressure or what. But in a way, that IS me, since I am not a player kinda guy, pretty unassuming and respectful. Of course later I found it ironic that that was how I was in the beginning of our R, "afraid" to say it and get rejected along with the above. I think I saw a "good" reaction to it, idk.
I think it was good not to gush about it. Your W seems so timid with you. Man, what a journey still.
Isn't it though?
Thanks for your confidence in me as posted on my thread. It means so much
T, I think you have such good instincts, I am sure if you are feeling a shift, then it is there.
I get what FY is saying about staying close. Not so sure. Sometimes when they are taking a big step forward, they need to really think it through once more, without any outside "noise", ya know?
But you know her best. And I know you will do what you feel is right.
And we will be here rooting you on.
Thank you Linda
Nope, no physical touching attempts yet. Letting her drive there, as suggested by many here and IC. Son is still waiting about, the politics in DC and within agencies is at all time weird...Maybe THIS fire, he's sick of desert fires, short deploys and hates the sand-fleas and sleeping on lava rock...
My back is better, finally got in to see my chiro, all day today I didn't need any Ibuprofin (yay!), so I should be back to my usual work-outs, biking and activities by this weekend, which will help with my stress/anxiety...T2 does NOT do well with no physical activity...lol.
FY- Tonight I am doing as you suggested, available here at home but "away", doing my own things...Yesterday I had to get out of my own way because I could tell I was anxious (not all because of sitch and her change, but regular old work and life reasons mostly), and had a decent probability of not being able to hold myself. Like when I feel an strong urge to say or do something, Snodderly's "voice" appears in my brain saying "Sit quietly, the answers will come".
rH -- Ms Fabulous- :0 Yeah, the vibes clue me in, BUT, I have been wrong in the change direction before, so a bit gun shy. I hadn't thought of that regarding the jewelry box, my first impression was how they say here to "put your R, M and feelings for your spouse in a box"...maybe she did do that symbolically in RL (!) ...I wouldn't be surprised, she is that way sometimes, always has been. As I said above, letting her drive the physical, and since i can be a bit slow with subtle, and being pretty unassuming, maybe she with have to hit me on the head or something before I "get" it!
I do wish she would remember to put those notes and things away, but I have learned and trained myself to ignore/look "past" them 98% of the time. The telling her she looked good and how I delivered it SO reminded me of when I was "chasing" her before we were M, and I was saying something to her, backing away to get back to work (trying to impress her with my wit and charm I'm sure) and when I had finished talking, i turned around to go through the door, except I was off by about 5-6 ft and turned right into the wall...(oh poor ego...lol) i just stood there, looking between the wall, and the door I wanted to go through, like "Who moved that door?"... W laughed, hard, and that laugh, the first time I had heard her real, from the belly laugh, was it for me...I fell hard in love with her at that moment. I'm such a goof sometimes, lol.
uRw - Thank you, I get that any noise can be "distracting", and we don't want the feral cat getting shy and running back into the weeds... I just hope she gets there before I have moved on/forward too far.. there is an urge in me to get going with MY life. Though I live maybe 80% as if she weren't coming back, there is that remainder that is a compromise to trying, until the ending in D, or not. Hence my asking AJ to clarify his posts earlier
Off to water, back to triple digits here, good news is that my experimental heat tolerant lettuces patch is holding up. So there's something...lol
Nope, no physical touching attempts yet.
T, I agree with this^^^. Not there yet. My back is better.
So glad, my friend. Yesterday I had to get out of my own way because I could tell I was anxious, and had a decent probability of not being able to hold myself.
So impressed that you are able to see that in yourself and take the steps to avoid saying or doing something you might regret. Since i can be a bit slow with subtle, and being pretty unassuming, maybe she with have to hit me on the head or something before I "get" it!
Um, do not sell yourself short, T. You get it, you are in tune to her, you understand. W laughed, hard, and that laugh, the first time I had heard her real, from the belly laugh, was it for me...I fell hard in love with her at that moment.
I love that story, T. I just hope she gets there before I have moved on/forward too far.. there is an urge in me to get going with MY life. Though I live maybe 80% as if she weren't coming back, there is that remainder that is a compromise to trying, until the ending in D, or not.
I so get what you are saying here. This is such hard stuff. Here's the thing in all this. You do the best you can each day. You live your life, you grow, you change. You allow your love to try to figure herself out. Try to remember, it is best not to get ahead of yourself. I cannot tell you what may happen. But I can tell you this, you will not regret what you have done and you will know, without a single doubt, when you can do no more. Until that day, you just keep going.
T2 I screwed up and tried spooning my W last night and got rejected. I think it was like 4 am . My d recently stopped sleeping in our bed and apparently I can't sleep the night and behave
How did she react? Did she make a huge deal out of it, or was she basically "polite" about it?
And what was your reaction, both towards her, and internally?
More info would be helpful...
Well it was at 4 am she shrugged my arm off got up went to the bathroom . When she came back she asked me to move over. So I did and rolled over and let the sitch rest. This morning she was quiet but she just finishing her "friend" and she off the map sometimes with it. This afternoon she back to being civil. So hard living under same roof just as friends or roommates . I get to excited when she stops acting childish. She definitely has been more friendly then usual last 2 weeks and stop hiding phone like teenager . Guess she not ready for me to touch her at all
That doesn't sound like too bad a reaction, at least she didn't go ballistic or anything... How can you NOT repeat what you did for now? Was it really unconscious/half-asleep, or did you know what you were trying for? Honestly...?
Well, I had a post going, but my computer decided it needed to close all my windows and reboot since I applied updates earlier today, and the postpone reboot function got tired of me postponing...rather insistent bAstard.
Not up for re-typing, so I will try again later or tomorrow...lots of stuff to do...hope everyone is having a great weekend!!
Well T2 it was 4 am and from what I remember it started out as a sleeping thing and I remember waking up and realizing what I was doing. She didn't go ballistic but withdrew a little. Yeah I can keep my hands to myself til the cows come home. She still blames her emotional swings on me. I don't know how u do it bro. I have good days and very bad days
T2, your story about falling hard in love with your W after that laughing together when you walked into the wall was so touching. So sweet! I fell in love with my H thru a laugh too. We worked together when we were in school. A bunch of us went out for hot dogs at lunch, and I threw away my roll because I was on some crazy diet. His eyes bugged out so much, then he and I started laughing and my heart melted. I thought he fell in love with me the day his old VW bug got stuck at the drive thru at McDonalds. I didn't know how to drve a stick, so I pushed while he popped the clutch. He was impressed
Hopefully some day our spouses will remember those happy days. Or maybe we'll get the chance to make new happy days.
T2 since the spooning incident I have noticed my W has put my D to bed in our bedroom since. Now I feel like a heel. It is amazingly hard to let them come to you. My W is stubborn on top of everything
That is a nice story too, Linda! I find it interesting that these "little" things trigger such huge "things", like falling in love, etc. Guess we are seeing the shadow side of that now with our mlc'ers, huh?
PON, don't beat yourself up please...maybe you are right as to her motivation, but maybe you are mind reading? Maybe something is going on with D...my boys all had periods where they wanted back in the bed, or wanted Mom in their room. My W has been out of our bed again for 8 months, but it started with one of the boys being really sick...she just never returned for her own reasons right now.
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So S1 deployed for fire again, it was sweet, yet hard to watch him and GF say their goodbye, and the other crew and their SO's...really touches me, the goodbyes when the .mil folks deploy, and the safe returns as well...want to get T2 all choked up? Take him to a deployment goodbye, speaks to something very, very deep within...the possibility of not returning or seeing again.
And I felt, for the first time in a long time, that "lack" in my life. Not that my job is danger ridden (though bike commuting these days in a smartphone/xanax laden driver world IS dangerous), but you don't know...and I think we all here realize that yeah...they could be gone. With no real goodbye, assuming that the day would be just like any other, see them in a few hours, just like all the days before... With the common speed of personality switch in a lot of mlc cases, we don't get to say good-bye to our "old" spouse, who they were, as GreyMeadow eloquently said. By the time we figure out that something is horribly wrong, "they" are "gone".
So, to get out of my funk, I started thinking of what a future R would look like, as AJ suggested previously. This realization that every/anyday could be your last to see your love will be part of that for me, and I think a requirement from whomever I have the R with. At least just that basic understanding. Of course there are tons of other ideas mapped out on paper, but this is something that really struck me. A core "want".
W continues to be nice, no drama, but quite a bit withdrawn from me still. But connecting with the kids. Wish I could show her the other aspects of a R with improved T2, the projects we worked on together is a small step I think, but she is still keeping distance, and I am still letting her lead, I can tell there are things processing. Sharpening up the patience shovel blade for now.
Oh, T, I hope your son stays safe.
I so get what you mean about not being able to say goodbye to our spouses before they go into crisis.
The way I thought about it was this. I didnt need to say goodbye so that he could hear it. I just needed to say it to myself.
And I did. I wrote down all the things about him that I would miss. And I wrote the things I loved about him, our stories, our "inside" jokes.
I wrote about how sad I would be if he never returned to the man that I once knew.
And I started to realize that we are not the same either. And I wondered if they came out of this, would they feel sad, too, that we are different?
There were things in my marriage, and with my h, that I would have wanted to be different.
But really, when you think about it, it is just life, right? Things change, people change, people come and go.
So, I tried really hard to honor my marriage and its memories. And I accepted that things change. And sometimes with great growth, comes amazing things.
No one knows what the future holds. That is the great thing about it.
It is entirely possible that you can have an extraordinary new marriage with your wife. One in which you both know you have weathered a difficult storm, but, you choose to be together to forge a new relationship.
It doesnt take away from the old relationship. You still had that, you experienced it and have your memories.
But it does allow for something entirely new and different. Where you have great new tools and where you get to use what you've learned. There is something exciting about that, too.
This is hard stuff, T. Hard for you and hard for her. She has to figure out what she wants and reconcile all these feelings she has. She has to decide what is real and what isnt and if what she thought she wanted still holds true.
I know that you get a little antsy sometimes - like come on already. LOL! But, you cant rush it. You want her to go throug all the steps. She has to, you see, to come out the other side.
I am running a special on the patience shovel. Let me know what you need.
Thank you uR, you are wonderful...if you ever want to move to fly-over country and get some mountain air, let me know..I'll make sure the house next door is "available"...
I did forget something, W did introduce me, without really "needing" to, to her manager and asst manager, she used "this is my husband, T2" and she later told me, out of the blue, that her asst. manager thought S1 and I were cute. So introducing me a wee bit to "her new world" maybe? And she still hasn't gotten gung-ho on the job search...so back in late April and thinking/talking D, she was adamant that we wait to tell the kids until after school was out so we didn't have that huge disruption with school...well now school is coming up quickly at end of Aug, and no paying job, no talk of D. I would think she'd want the kids to know with enough time to recover before school started, and her place all set for districts and such for "her weeks" with physical custody, ya know?
Just throwing thoughts out here, talking out loud, documenting, etc...
Hey wait, I want her as my neighbor! Lol!
Thank you for writing that UW. It was what I needed to hear today even if it wasn't specifically to me.
And T, I feel you... No matter how busy we are or how much we GAL, there is that empty space where our spouse once was. And it svcks.
So once we reside ourselves to the fact that we could live without our spouses, that we're not gonna curl up in a ball and die, then I feel we can move on to wanting them in our life. Or not.
It seems we still want them in our life, T. At least for today
Pass that patience shovel on this way when you're finished!
I did forget something, W did introduce me, without really "needing" to, to her manager and asst manager, she used "this is my husband, T2" and she later told me, out of the blue, that her asst. manager thought S1 and I were cute. So introducing me a wee bit to "her new world" maybe? And she still hasn't gotten gung-ho on the job search...so back in late April and thinking/talking D, she was adamant that we wait to tell the kids until after school was out so we didn't have that huge disruption with school...well now school is coming up quickly at end of Aug, and no paying job, no talk of D. I would think she'd want the kids to know with enough time to recover before school started, and her place all set for districts and such for "her weeks" with physical custody, ya know?
Just throwing thoughts out here, talking out loud, documenting, etc...
Sounds like small positive steps. Do you think your W spoke about D to kind of air the thoughts? Soon after bomb drop, my W spoke about D or separation alot with her friends (I was still snooping at the time). While she did a lot of speaking, she never took any actual steps to do anything. I wonder that many MLCers are like this. This is why we believe only 50% of what they say.
Idk, SA...you may be right, W would do that, even before mlc, and she was in a frustrated "run" mode at the time.
My problem is I think of things how I would do them, trying to make sense of what I am seeing, hearing, etc. Thus my conclusions are not really valid. And, why we are advised not to watch the pot boil, and believe none of what they say, etc. We are not in their mind, worldview, so we can't see it as it really is...
So I report here and see what comes back from more experienced, outside the sitch, minds than mine.
You and T make me feel so wanted. Thank you. I am sure your state is a beautiful place to live. And who knows where I will wind up one day?
T2, I have seen, several times, what it looks like when someone is done. I have heard what they say, I have seen how they've acted.
I do not think your wife is going anywhere. That's not to say she is out of the tunnel because clearly she isnt. But I do feel that all these baby steps are her working through things.
I want to tell you a little something about me. I try really hard to be positive on here. But, where I am from, you tell it like it is. So, I do not think it is fair to give false hope when clearly there isnt any. The only way I know how to be is honest. And I think my friends on here can attest to that.
I just wanted you to know that.
T2 curiosity question. You ever try talking with W about "swings". Like my W gave me 10 great days of being a W. Talking. Wearing rings, no secret phones, talking futuristic. Then she got her "friend" got migraines for 3 days. I tried spooning her and she back to less then civil W. I never speak with her about it but it is such a drastic change. I'm always tempted to ask "is there something I did to offend you as of recent". Sometimes there is (she holds it all in), most of the time she'll say "you know how I feel about you" etc..
She does keep talking about menopause and her migraines etc..She pieces parts of it together.
My sponsor is really helping me but man somedays are really hard for me.