A Feral Cat, Puzzling 2 - DivorceBusting.com

W must have gotten some useful/comforting(?) info from ob/gyn/hormone docs, she was pretty much "herself" last night. Seemed sort of relieved maybe, idk. Told me some of the hormone thoughts and theories, but not too revealing whether she was feeling better about the influence of the hormonal changes affecting her attraction to me, her journey (as we call it now) and things like that. That's okay, the answers will come in one form or another...

She did let out that her friends apparently don't want to/can't listen to, and I quote, "her sh!t anymore and she needs to see a therapist". No mind reading that statement from me, it's her experience, her thoughts, etc. I was just my newer usual self, validating, full-on engaged listening, and some good ol' fashioned STFU. I do like this "no-fix" mentality. Seems to help keep communication co-operative and empathetic...and less stressful for all parties.

T^2

She did let out that her friends apparently don't want to/can't listen to, and I quote, "her sh!t anymore and she needs to see a therapist". No mind reading that statement from me, it's her experience, her thoughts, etc. I was just my newer usual self, validating, full-on engaged listening, and some good ol' fashioned STFU. I do like this "no-fix" mentality. Seems to help keep communication co-operative and empathetic...and less stressful for all parties.

Sorry about the loss of your cat, T^2. Our pets' unconditional love is so comforting.�

Speaking from personal experience, peri-menopause can be a horrible time due to the hormonal imbalance. I could not sleep, I could not concentrate or think clearly, would burst into tears at the slightest provocation, felt horrible. Sort of like a MLCer I bet! Hormone replacement was a life (and marriage) saver.�

I am having difficulty validating some of my my H's statements. For example, earlier today, he was discussing a wooden fence he is building and said he could use the white plastic kind across the front of the property. He said he doesn't care one way or the other, and in fact doesn't care or have any interest in anything. I think he could feel that I was truly �listening and caring, but didn't know what to say.�

I've read that we need to validate our MLCers and let them know that we understand what they are saying and don't think they are crazy or wrong. I did not know what to say - I considered "I understand what you mean" or "really?" but �just said "I'm sorry you feel like that." Can you give me an example of what you would have said to validate your W if she said something like that?�

Thanks!�

Hi Linda,

I think you said the perfect thing in this situation...you really don't understand what he means because you're not H, so that wouldn't have been validating. And "really" would have implied disbelief or something perhaps...

I think you did great, and this is such a hard skill to learn, goes against what we've been taught for so long that it almost human nature.

It goes against my former nature of "Mr. Fix-it", I still have to conscious think before I open my trap, make sure the filter is properly installed between brain and mouth...lol...

Thank you the insight about peri-menapause..I want to email that to W...we will see...

Hang in there!

T^2

I had a GREAT evening last night in the garden, prepping beds and planting some, since our cold spell appears to be over. This weekend it's tomatoes and Peppers finally. "My" cool tomcat decided that I was his turf on his rounds of the yard and sprayed me...W was there all serious, but I couldn't help myself...I just busted up laughing and giggling after my intial WTH? moment. Man, that felt good, just letting it loose with hysterical laughter...

Later I got a good workout in, so in all, a fabulous night!

So now the question is my summer trip with the boys to visit my parents (this started in 2011, just before BD#1, she has never gone on this trip)...W said she is thinking of going this year for the youngest's sake, he has the most separation issues when we go. I am not sure I want her to go ...yet. My parents can be high maintenance at times (think of the movie "Meet the Parents"...) which doesn't always mesh with W in the best of her times. And I don't really think I want the stress of her behavior, or for my parents to see how she treats me (for their sake)...I can see W being all pinched and jealous (this is a high $$$ area we visit them at)and we would need to find someone to watch the pets.

On the other hand, maybe a 6 hour drive, as a family, would be a good thing, and me showing my new self in how I deal with my parents (an issue from our old M), would be good as well.

Sort of torn here...I can see the possible good opportunity, yet the possible not so good...and in the past couple of years this has been a good break from mlc-land and a great time bonding with the boys.

And W would have to take time off of her new work (which she has said she is questioning going full-time if she gets offered full-time...hmm).

So that's my dilemma, and my good stuff of moving forward and finding the good in life...lol.

T^2

Thanks for your insights T^2, you are very generous about sharing your knowledge and the male perspective, and I so appreciate it.

Women are not really Mr. Fix-Its, but we DO like to tell our Hs what course of action we think they should take, and this is something I struggle against too. Right now my 180s about this are to never give advice/criticize/warn/coax, to let him be the thinking/action oriented/masculine energy one in our relationship, and to not try to control him or the outcome. Whew!

I'm so happy to hear you had a fabulous night with side-busting laugh after the cat sprayed you (pee-u!)! Didn't your W join in the hilarity? How long is it before you have to make the decision about whether to let her join your annual trip or not? Hard decision, lots of pros and cons on each side.

It sounds like you're doing great! Life is good!
--Linda

Hi T! (And Linda too!)

I would give it a little time to see if she is really serious about going. Maybe it was one of those things that she's not really sure about herself, so she's throwing it out there to see your reaction and what you think. She may decide she's not ready to go after all...

Hey, I love Meet the Parents

Sounds like you had a good evening with a few laughs, and are finding great ways to best that stress!

Keep up the great work! (And laughter!)

Hi TVS, you've been on my mind! Sometimes I wish DB had a "like" button LOL!
Linda

Thanks Linda and TVS!

W only managed a half grin...which made me laugh harder...I don't know why...I think I found a part of me again that just can find life funny, absurd, and heck, why get all bent out of shape when you can laugh?

I think you are right TVS, it was a feeler, or "trying on" the idea...since I know she is a last minute decision maker, I will know more the day before we leave most likely, unless I tell her I don't want her to go before hand...we'll see....no hurry yet.

So here's my song to roll me into the weekend:

Bob Marley-- Three Little Birds

"Don't worry about a thing,
'Cause every little thing gonna be all right.
Singin': "Don't worry about a thing,
'Cause every little thing gonna be all right!"

Rise up this mornin',
Smiled with the risin' sun,
Three little birds
Pitch by my doorstep
Singin' sweet songs
Of melodies pure and true,
Sayin', ("This is my message to you-ou-ou:")

Singin': "Don't worry 'bout a thing,
'Cause every little thing gonna be all right."
Singin': "Don't worry (don't worry) 'bout a thing,
'Cause every little thing gonna be all right!"

Feeling a mischievous, lopsided grin and demeanor coming on...

T^2

Okay, I have just decided that this beautiful weekend to be is officially Reggae weekend...only positive, uplifting music and outdoor activity for T^2...no lost love, angry, taciturn, strained, or "down" music allowed...did someone put something in my Kauai coffee today?? lol

Well, look at you, T, getting your reggae grove on and all! LOL! Love me some Marley.

I have to say, I would have been right there laughing my as$ off with you, T. Life is too short not to live it up whenever you can. And laughter cannot be beat.

Ah, a man who likes to garden! Heaven.

About the trip, I agree with TVS, she is trying it out, seeing how it flies. My guess is that she doesnt end up going.

You do what you want to do, T because a 6 hour trip with an MLCer could go either way. LOL!

You are doing great, sweetie!

Thank you uRw...

I haven't laughed like that (last night) in a LONG time...something broke through, and I will not question it too much...just a flowin' with the positive vibrations, Marley live playlist playing here at work...;)

Man..."Run Away" by Bob has some great lyrics...

Yeo, T, you just gotta ride it.

Marley's one of the greats~

You are putting me in the mood- for a nice drink with an umbrella in it, a beach and a good book.

Just posting for my own reminder and anyone else....

Madelyn Burley-Allen offers these guidelines for empathic listening:

--Be attentive. Be interested. Be alert and not distracted. Create a positive atmosphere through nonverbal behavior.
--Be a sounding board -- allow the speaker to bounce ideas and feelings off you while assuming a nonjudgmental, non-critical manner.
--Don't ask a lot of questions. They can give the impression you are "grilling" the speaker.
--Act like a mirror -- reflect back what you think the speaker is saying and feeling.
--Don't discount the speaker's feelings by using stock phrases like "It's not that bad," or "You'll feel better tomorrow."
--Don't let the speaker "hook" you. This can happen if you get angry or upset, allow yourself to get involved in an argument, or pass judgment on the other person.
--Indicate you are listening by:
----Providing brief, noncommittal acknowledging responses, e.g., "Uh-huh," "I see."
----Giving nonverbal acknowledgements, e.g., head nodding, facial expressions matching the speaker, open and relaxed body expression, eye contact.
----Invitations to say more, e.g., "Tell me about it," "I'd like to hear about that."
--Follow good listening "ground rules:"
Don't interrupt.
Don't change the subject or move in a new direction.
Don't rehearse in your own head.
Don't interrogate.
Don't teach.
Don't give advice.
Do reflect back to the speaker what you understand and how you think the speaker feels.

Have a great weekend all!!

Thanks for taking the time to copy those emphatic listening guidelines. They're really helpful, especially not letting the speaker "hook" you into responding with anger (MLCers are good at that, aren't thet?) and making non-committal responses like uh huh and I see. They sure beat standing there like a deer in the headlights wondering what the hell he's going on about now, and how can I show him that I don't think he's wrong or crazy when I clearly DO!!

Have a great weekend in your garden! Have you composed any music lately?

Linda M

I have a song or two in progress, right now the priority is the veggie garden and work...

I have to remind myself of these things like listening skills and such, and review all the mlc docs to keep things fresh and me on goal...

The listening tips are great, thanks for sharing!

I just wanted to add that sometimes it doesn't matter what you say or don't say, they could still lash out or be angry regardless.

During one of our big talks, H was mad at me and said things like "I don't want you to agree with me" and "I don't need you to show me empathy." He also told me I was being condescending when I was quiet and listened. Go figure.

I am reading and rereading your list though... You can never have too much practice at being a good listener!

Hope the gardening is going well!

Hi T^2!

I wanted to chime in on the appreciation for listening tips. I want to do this more and more in all my R's in my life. That would include being more focused in each moment.

I remember last fall when we were in the thick of it, my H saying he would find it easier if I hated him. It didn't make sense then but it does now. This patient, loving, listening response we cultivate forces them to not blame us for their problems but they hafta look inward and work. And that's hard. This would be easier if we acted badly and they could say we were the problem!

I had sort of a bad night last night and was awake a couple of hours after H fell asleep. And not just b/c of the severe storms. I kept thinking of you, T^2, and how you are excited about your garden and even said "GREAT" about your evening.

There is so much to be excited about our lives and I felt a lot of motivation from the enthusiasm in your posts lately. Thank you ever so much!

rH

Originally Posted By: reachingHigher

I wanted to chime in on the appreciation for listening tips. I want to do this more and more in all my R's in my life. That would include being more focused in each moment.

The timing of this comment is uncanny for me. This afternoon W and I went to a graduation party together. At one point I couldn't help but notice that when her friend was telling a story, she was giving me noticeably more eye contact and attention than W! I chalked it up to my newly improved listening/validating skills.

Quote:

I remember last fall when we were in the thick of it, my H saying he would find it easier if I hated him. It didn't make sense then but it does now. This patient, loving, listening response we cultivate forces them to not blame us for their problems but they hafta look inward and work. And that's hard. This would be easier if we acted badly and they could say we were the problem!

Yep. I like to say that it trips them up when instead of returning fire, we show only love. It makes it awfully hard for them to hate or blame us, doesn't it? I know T's known this for a long time.

Quote:

I kept thinking of you, T^2, and how you are excited about your garden and even said "GREAT" about your evening.

Anyone who can laugh at being sprayed by the cat must be doing something right.

Ya Mon, you're doing great T, you got dis!

Hello all, I am still around - just not keeping a thread of my own at the moment, but am reading everyone else's!

Quote:

This would be easier if we acted badly and they could say we were the problem!

Wonder if this is why when you act loving and caring, which is the opposite to what they find easy, that they start picking fault in everything. My W has been picking on anything tiny and making me aware of it!

T,

I really like the "hook" one. I am really good at this list, providing that I know a discussion is coming and mentally can prepare for it. Where I struggle is when something comes up that pushes my buttons, my heart rate climbs, and the list is out the window. I have been carrying a print out from Fireproof Your Marriage website that is a one pager with similar pointers on it, but need to use it when my back is really up against the wall, not just for planned discussions.

Great stuff T.

CB

Originally Posted By: CharlieBrown

T,

I really like the "hook" one. I am really good at this list, providing that I know a discussion is coming and mentally can prepare for it. Where I struggle is when something comes up that pushes my buttons, my heart rate climbs, and the list is out the window.

Hello Charlie Brown, nice to meet you

I'm a good listener I think, but am not good at this verbal validating stuff. I cannot tell you how many times I've prepared for a discussion, a few times I went as far as writing out a list for myself, and then once the talk starts, everything I thought of saying is blown out of my mind. I'm planning to do that uh huh stuff more when my mind goes blank!

My H told me that if he knows he is going to have a discussion, he tries to think of every conceivable response. Is that sort of what you do?

Hi Linda. I probably do that, but moreso, I read through my sheet on suggestions for listening that I printed off from the Fireproof site. And, when we start the discussion, I try to really focus in on it. This is much better when:

1. I have had a chance to mentally prepare for the subject.
2. I stay calm, no matter what is being thrown at me.
3. I/we are both sober. A few drinks tends to function like truth serum and the listening stuff is thrown out in favor of more honest and direct responses.

CB

One thing I have learned is that "rehearsing" (which I did and still do) is not helpful, to the dicussion at hand, or to my PMA...with MLC'ers there is just no way to "prepare" it seems.

It took me quite a while to get this.

MWD and others talk of having a "beginner's mind", which is hard to do since we were trained by years of M how our spouses are likely to respond, etc. But the "beginner's mind" is helpful, less rehearsing the better I have found.

T^2

Hard to rehearse for crazy, unexpected turns...

Thanks for your insights, gentlemen. It IS hard to prepare to have a rational discussion with a temporarily crazy person. I didn't do a really good job of detaching from the craziness this weekend, and found myself believing all my H's statements. Bad idea. But now I can see now that it was just the same sort of crazy statements as usual, no better, no worse. If I don't agree with one of his ideas, I just need to wait because H will probably contradict himself tomorrow LOL! I'll go read that chapter in DB on having a beginner's mind again.

CB, is your W still at home after thinking she wants to move 4 hours away? Does she have an OP?

Linda,

My W never left. She stated originally that she wanted to move and wasn't sure it was with me. She was in MLC and now is stating that she isn't sure she really meant that. I know this is good news and I am in a much better sitch than most of you, but I have been on a roller-coaster since she said this.

You will find my latest sitch at "Still Struggling and Need Help #4". She never had OM, but she did/has an online b-list celebrity obsession that is still there and he is in the town she wanted/wants us to move to. No PA, not really EA as far as I know except a limited amount of PMing when she was in his town. As far as I know...

CB

I've read your threads, starting with the SSM ones, Charlie Brown, sorry you've had to go thru all that early struggle, and now THIS! I listened to a psychologist speaking on the radio not long ao, who said that he thinks one of the best predictors of whether a person will be able to face his or her changing body and life expectations at mid life, or go into a full blown crisis including EAs and/or PAs, is the fact of whether or not he or she had 2 or 3 relationships during their teen years. He said that falling in love and having one's heart broken during this formative period is important to the development of a strong, healthy sexual identity. And if the person had an unresolved problem back then, he or she will have to live thru it and face it later in life.

Maybe your poor W had some kind of problem or experience during her formative years that turned her off to sex in general, and now to this obsession with the tattooed wonder?

No matter if it is an obsession, an EA or a PA, it all hurts!

Originally Posted By: LindaM

No matter if it is an obsession, an EA or a PA, it all hurts!

That sure is a big truth.

If I do my math right... I would have to say that I let the A's (which I'm positive were primarily, if not only, EAs; including female and gay friend EAs) affect me for about 2.5 years. During that time, some of them ended, but even those ones still bothered me.

I finally "got over" it. It appears that pretty much every A has ended now, as far as I know. stbx might still be (is) in contact with them to some degree, but she's not obsessing over them any more. They truly appear to be "just friends" now. The fact that she is actively dating (in a more "traditional" sense) now, truly does not bother me. I can't say that it's not entirely because I have moved on, although that certainly has some bearing on things. It's just that an A is IMHO, "ugly".

So as Linda mentions, As hurt.

That said, your W's interest (obsession) with the ta-boy life and family (his pregnant W) could be along the same realms of her reading those fantasy books or people who watch those reality TV shows.

Eventually it will not bother you like it does. Try to keep focused on more important things. It really does seem like progress is being made and your focus on your W's fantasy will continue to drive you crazy.

Originally Posted By: LindaM

...or go into a full blown crisis including EAs and/or PAs, is the fact of whether or not he or she had 2 or 3 relationships during their teen years. He said that falling in love and having one's heart broken during this formative period is important to the development of a strong, healthy sexual identity. And if the person had an unresolved problem back then, he or she will have to live thru it and face it later in life.

I think the part bolded above is somewhat subjective, but I do think there is something to that.

My own stbx's experience is, as far as I know, that she had one "primary" R through her teen years. At one point, she actually cheated on this guy with his best friend, during that R and she claimed to have been remorseful about it. I think it was the same guy who she eventually got back together with, and he ended up with a disabling neck injury and she stuck with him for a while before eventually moving on from him.

So on point would be that stbx likely has no strong basis for her own R development that isn't either untrustworthy or otherwise somehow co-dependent in some way.

Linda and KD, thank you for your responses. To give T his thread back, I am going to respond on my Still Struggling thread...

T^2, I'm going to hijack your thread, only because you get a lot of traffic and I think you've struggled with "fixing" early on.

Anyone who has not seen this, do a search on your favourite engine and check out "Jason Headley - it's not about the nail"

Gotta love it.

Hmmmm, funny but true. Women sometimes just want our men to listen to us complain (validate?) and not to try to fix everything. Even when the nail is snagging all of our sweaters

I don't think men like us to try to fix them either though.
Thanks Kaffe!

KD,

This is hilarious!!! And so true!

Would love to show this to W, but might be better not to...

CB

Hijack away all...we are all in this together, and besides...it's not MY database...

lol!

So, I had myself a very satisfying weekend, doing my stuff...garden, bike repair, etc...can't complain.

As for W, I just don't know, sometimes here, sometimes not...not worrying about it too much...just a little

I touch base with her letting her know I'm available, then back off...

She did something nice for me, I had mentioned a LONG time ago about needing some new/old bike shorts in a smaller size than my current pair (yay me! 32-inch waist achieved)...out of the blue she bought them at a thrift store, and a real quality brand...I was surprised she remembered and thought of it, and she was concerned that they hadn't been washed yet for Monday's commute (guess she doesn't want me in public in baggy bike shorts?? lol). Of course I thanked her excitedly, but didn't go into how surprised I was and all, don't want to stir up any guilt (she seemed more her usual self that day).

But she seems to have withdrawn/depressed again, very thoughtful it appears, so back to "T, aloof, yet available" in my dim dance cycle. There are other things she is processing that I know about like her friends situation, work changes, getting hired on from volunteer, etc...yet I reckon our sitch and what is she going to do, what/how can she come to terms with whatever decision she makes, etc., is in her mind. So just sitting quietly...

Found out there are some good, tactical reasons to wait a bit before filing for D....and L (informal chat, not a "real" consultation) has seen a lot of this MLC stuff (he does executive Ds and this sort of thing is rather common) and said to definitely try to wait it out some more from his experience....soooo, there ya go.

KD, that vid is hilarious!!!!!! I spewed my coffee a bit and burst out with a laugh and now my co-workers are looking at me weirdly...

T^2

So glad to hear that your W actually remembered that you needed some new bike shorts, T^2, and then located and bought some for you. A real step in the right direction, don't cha think, in many ways? My H seems withdrawn and depressed also, but it's a relief after his weekend of lashing out. Last night when I said good night he stepped 2 or 3 steps back from me and had a sort of wild eyed look, as if he was afraid I might touch him. So I decided to keep strictly away this morning, but got a "good morning" and one of those dead one-armed hugs from him. Improvement!

"It's not about the nail" is going to be my new motto

Hi Linda,

I was a nice, very nice surprise. I enjoy it for that, and that she thought of me.

I am not reading too much into it right now, I used to do that with every little "sign"...guess I learned that that sets me up for expectations, and I need to keep my PMA, so really trying to leave it in God's hands...the vets say you WILL know when it's a real reconnect, and things change for the better. So we will see...

T^2

"It" was a nice surprise....wish edit was available sometimes...

KD, the video is hysterical!!!!

LindaM, I like the idea of making it a motto...... I am certain that every time I think about trying to "fix" something for my W, it will come to mind.....

May be hard to not have a quick smile or grin when that happens.... Gotta work on being able to not let that show.

KD, if you have a minute and could take a quick skim of my story I would greatly appreciate it. labug has been commenting and suggested that you may have additional insight...

T^2, apologies for the hijack!

T^2, do you ever feel as if YOU are the one going nuts? My emotions are so up and down. Happy and singing one minute, crying the next.

My H told me he feels as if he is in a "state of flux." I think I validated okay for a change. Then he and S27 just went to Lowes to buy some more fencing, and he asked me to meet him down there to look at tile, because he wants to rip out the living room, dining room and kitchen floors and replace them with tile. New fences, new floors, all the stuff I've been asking him to do for years. But I don't want to fix up our house if we are just going to wind up divorced. I especially don't want to fix up our house so he can live in it with Russian Tramp. But I guess it's not such a good idea to ask. Since I might not like his answer

Hi Linda,

Those fluctuations have pretty much settled down for me, but they DO still crop up. As in today, I had this bout of resentment just pop up out of no where seemingly. Could not figure out why...

-W thought of me and got me bike shorts
-W talked to me a bit last night about her work.
-W told me of the IC and possible MC she is thinking of seeing...

So where did it come from, those all seem positive, right?

Well, a sitch at work with a customer who tends to take advantage of the business relationship triggered my paranoia of being used, plus W didn't acknowledge me this morning when I left for work (now, she was busy with the boys, so understandable but she "could have" looked up or said "bye", but I let that bug me that she didn't today for some reason...)...my internal fear is, that W is going to IC and being nice, sll to keep using my resources until she is ready to bolt, and that the IC is so she will be "fixed" for OMs, current or future.

Now is that fear valid? Maybe, maybe not.

maybe I have developed a distrust through this, understandably maybe. The "old" W wouldn't do such a thing, the mlc W might.

But whose issue is this then? W's, or mine? Mine.

As KD has pointed out, we do have a choice in how we interpret things...

I could look at this as W "using me", feeding my fears...
or,
As providing a safe, compassionate place and resources to help her find her way through this, regardless of the outcome.

I know what kind of person I want to be, and am trying to become, so I know how I want to look at it...but the old trust and ego demons are still there...tempting me to look at it the other way...

So I have been reviewing some posts and such, looking at the stages to help remind me, and keep me on track.

Quote:

Now during stage TWO of Acceptance, will come the temptations to want to go back to what they came out of. The silence of the spouse is most important during this time-all you can do is be understanding and patient with them as this MUST happen and they MUST come through alone.
They will SEEM to be going backward, but aren't, this is necessary for them to move forward.
It is during this time they will "revisit" ALL stages of the Mid Life Crisis except Denial and shuts the "doors" to each stage PERMANENTLY one by one, never to return.
If they give in to temptation OR get spooked by their final fears, they WILL run BACK into the tunnel a little ways. But they can only run back as far as the doors have NOT been closed permanently; most of the time they just run back as far as WITHDRAWAL, but will continue the process to come out once they feel "safe" to continue. So, they must be allowed to come through WITHOUT interruption, no matter what happens.

Stage THREE involves the "archway" I spoke of in the Stage of Withdrawal-all this time the Mid Lifer has been coming across this open field toward this Archway, where his "final fears" are located and he finally begins to face these fears in full-he may come out of the tunnel and face them BEFORE he/she shuts the door to Depression/Withdrawal or afterwards. But he will have to face them, nevertheless, before he exits to begin his complete healing process.

It takes awhile for the Mid Lifer to get settled down, even after he/she comes out of stage three of the Acceptance stage-they will experience a final "rebelling" before they settle down for good.

It is much like a teen-ager who has passed into manhood/womanhood-there are still final changes that must be made, especially for the one who has done so much damage during the crisis itself.

I guess I just journaled myself...lol. Anyway, hope that answers you somewhat Linda...

T^2

Thanks for your honesty about the resentment you sometimes feel, T, and your fear that your W is just going to keep using you, letting you support her, while she gets into better emotional shape until she feels ready to bolt. I have sort of the same fear sometimes, that my H just wants to live here together in the house, with me supporting him, until he feels well enough (from eating his oatmeal I guess since he stopped his antibiotics) to get a job, and THEN he will leave and get a place for RT and himself.

And strangely, I feel resentment that I have CHOSEN to validate and support him even at his nastiest and craziest, and have CHOSEN, like you, to provide him with the same safe place you strive to give to your W -- "a safe, compassionate place and resources to help her find her way through this, regardless of the outcome." That is a terrific statement, and is exactly what I am trying to do for him. But I still feel sullen, angry and resentful sometimes. And wish I could be the beloved one for a change. Childish, but true

Thanks for copying that quotation about acceptance. Do you think that is where your W is now? It sounds as if she might be, or maybe still a bit withdrawn. Even if she isn't in acceptance yet, you are doing fabulously to prepare to give her that supportive silence she'll need. You are truly a wonderful role model, thank you.

It seemed to me that my H had gone into the stage of acceptance during his 5 month period of sanity, prior to this latest A. Maybe he was, and something I did or said spooked him back into the tunnel, as far back as replay. Maybe he never completely left replay. But thanks for sharing that.

Maybe he just got tempted to the distraction and such of an A... and it was nothing you did/said...but I get the self-questioning, I do it as well.

I guess for me I think it's important to acknowledge and process these feelings as they arise. The more I do it the less impact they have on me.

We don't or can't know usually, what is in their minds (even with all the snooping in the world, what they say may not really be reality), until they tell us, and show us by actions. We definitely can't control what they are thinking. But we can with our own thoughts.

For me, usually when she goes within and stops communicating, even answering my emails, is when they seem to creep out more. My imagination is too good for my own good sometimes...

But when she does this, and if I can maintain myself, is when significant changes (for better or worse) tend to occur. For all I know W is not emailing me because she is trying to break her online habit/addiction, and that plan minimizes that behavior, idk...just don't know until she says something or does something.

Sorry for the self-rambling...

T^2

very interesting T^2... Inspite of a good day (the other day) this is happening TODAY for me, today h has not been very pleasant & has not even called/texted for business (as usual), so... I am trying NOT to mindread & accept he is having a "crazy" day and needs to resort back to his "hole". What happens in there is beyond me... so I am trying to stay out of his way (no comm. back), although he will be expecting a daily report from me.. soon. OH! speak of the devil (he finally just texted me!!). Guess the rule is to answer him later.

My rule for answering was/is: if about kids, the house, work, etc...then answer quickly as reasonable rather than purposely delaying...if NOT about work, kids, etc...then delay is acceptable.

WFM, do you keep a journal, with dates, where you document what you are trying, what H reaction is(might have been), what you feelings were, etc? That is a great way of keeping track of things, their effects and how long you have done this or that. It helps you to see patterns so you can see what is working, not working, what may be better, etc. And gives you reminders to yourself what you are doing...I highly suggest it.

T^2

Originally Posted By: LindaM

And strangely, I feel resentment that I have CHOSEN to validate and support him even at his nastiest and craziest, and have CHOSEN, like you, to provide him with the same safe place you strive to give to your W

I don't think it's strange to feel resentment. I think it's human. But as those famous guys often say, "Do unto ALL others, as you would have done onto you."

I think the LBS gets so caught up in their WAS/MLCer's conduct, they forget that it is good practice to be nice, encouraging, validating, being a safe place, for anyone. Regardless. And that includes the WAS/MLCer.

Choosing to be the way we are choosing to be specifically FOR the WAS/MLCer or excluding the WAS/MLCer... is time to question what we are doing and why.

Tx T.... delaying is done purposely sometimes even for business as he needs to realize I am not his personal secretary and I am not sitting by the phone waiting for HIM to call. I am an equal partner. This is also the only real area I can do this as he NEVER gets personal with me anymore. Calls/texts stop before 6pm until 9am.

As for journalling, it is all done on this forum.

Any other suggestions? I am ALL EARS!

WFM--I HIGHLY suggest putting this journal on paper, where it is easier to look back and discern patterns, like you would a business marketing campaign or something. For me, at least, going back through my posts is helpful, but I find it easier to refer back to my paper journal to see patterns and such. Also easier, imo, to write down new conclusions from your entries, etc. I even print out my threads as I make new ones to augment my paper journal with all the great posts from everyone. But maybe I'm just old school, too much an engineer and analyst, idk.

Hi T^2, just popping by to say hello.

Just going back to the bike shorts, and your W being depressed / withdrawn. I have found my W does nice things for me quite frequently at the moment. But sometimes she will back right off as if she has caught herself out or forgotten that she wants D etc.

T ~ I wouldn't have much to say on paper. I don't see any patterns or anything worthy of more than I put here. I would journal if I understood somethng. Please post an example of an entry that worked for you. Im not against it, but I might analyse it WAY too much. This forum keeps me organized.

WFM - I think the point of a journal away from here is that its just you. Nobody else posting in between etc. I use one on my smart phone and it works a treat, all date marked and time stamped (also password protected!). If i think in my head of patterns i can not think of any, but sometimes I sit and flick through my journal and I do see the odd pattern, even if just small mood changes following events or approaching W trips away etc.

Its also good to see how things have progressed, as sometimes its easy to thing we are still at square one, but from my journal I can see that even if our sitch has not moved on, I have as a person.

Quote:

Choosing to be the way we are choosing to be specifically FOR the WAS/MLCer or excluding the WAS/MLCer... is time to question what we are doing and why.

KD, if I understand you correctly, I have a question...is it fair to say that there are "levels" of what we would do for others...ie, what I would do or tolerate for my kids, my W, my immediate family, very close friends, is greater than what I would do for a friend, neighbor, stranger. To be specific, I have tolerated, or "made allowances" for things my W and kids have done that I would not do the same for just anyone. And I am not seeing that this is questionable, or problematic...so, could you elaborate more?

2.4, W has done the same throughout this...sorta like she sometimes forgot I'm the Quasimodo enemy, with the plague, koodies and bad breath at times..it was sorta funny to watch her reaction when she realized she was out of character...

WFM, imo, a journal is what YOU create for yourself, that aids you in remembering, understanding, etc in a fashion that works for your unique self...I don't believe that there is ONE way that is best...I don't think my "way" of journelling would work for most people, lol. It has its own logic and meaning that only probably works for me...what would work for YOU is your own unique style...go create it! YOU have to do this work yourself, FOR YOURSELF...! This is part of the path of discovering WHO WFM is...with or without H.

And to end this post, W made an appt with IC...I hope the C is pro-marriage and W is mostly honest, and not just looking for what she wants to hear...time will tell. Not in my hands.

Nite all!

T^2

Okay, that didn't sound right....

W took an action step, and told me rather pointedly. Implying she sees that she needs help working some things through...I am grateful. I am not going to judge this by past metrics. Beginner's mind. It is a new turn.

There, that's better for who I want to be.

I agree that a journal is a valuable tool in getting through all this stuff. (Transitions, no matter what the outcome.) I have journaled since I was a little girl. I still get something out of re-reading my old stuff.

A classic line was reading my 5ht grade self writing: "Mom's yelling again, as usual." And guess what she still yells a lot.

I look back at what I wrote one, two, three, twenty years ago. I see progress and stagnation.

I am glad that T^2 writes so much of his observations. And proud to see him becoming who he wants to be!

On the feral cat front my neighbors cat seems to have grown dependent on my outside feeder. So I have a new old cat on the payroll. He usually runs away when I get close, but the other day I walked right up to him. Maybe he is getting so old and feeble he can't run away?

I would like to add that by journaling elsewhere, you will be able to go back in years to come to see just how far you've come and grown.

The forum doesn't keep a lot of the old postings and purges the system periodically. It is very important that you keep a copy of what you are posting here if you are planning to use this forum as a journaling tool. For example, a lot of my old threads from 2000 are now gone. Why? Because the main frame server can only hold so much data.

T - That is a great attitude. I find myself being the skeptic and looking the gift horse in the mouth all the time and I know that is not helpful.

In your case, a clear sign from your W would have been going to IC to get some help, and yet, the reaction is, will it really make a difference? Well, will it make it worse? Is it a good sign of her trying to commit? Maybe, but hard to see it as a bad thing, yet you (and I, beleive me) are too quick to look for the negative. I am proud of you for your realization of that and attempt to change it!

CB

Just a quick update/journel entry...

Glad I reminded myself of those empathetic listening skills...I have needed them, and used them to apparently good effect. W has been talking to me longer about all sorts of things with her work, the kids, etc. She was even dancing around R talk, so we talked some on that subject...agreements on SBT, some finacial attitude clearing up, some understandings reached for things from the past.

She has been working full time this week temporarily, I have been very understanding when she comes home about her being tired and all...I get that, been doing it for 24+ years.

I have been seeing more and more of "old" W mannerisms, expressions, eye contact, more "peaceful" the past week...tonight she was much like her old self when I left to go chill at my office..."regular" replies, voice, smiles and such, rather than cold, indifferent, "whatever"...

So, I have this positive, but cautious, feeling in my gut...I could be wrong, and if so, that's okay too.

Continuing to sit quietly, doing "me" the best I can, teamwork, etc. Aloof, yet available.

Make a great weekend, all!!!....garden here I come for mid-summer fall veggie sowing...

T^2

I figured out what it is that seems different, when she was talking with/to me, she kept continuing, like a friend you hadn't talked to for a long time...heck, I even did it too once, I even said out loud, "T^2, STFU! This was supposed to be quick!" and we both laughed about it...and there is a new/old "softening" to her voice with me, like when she talks to the kids, or the "old days"...I hope that all makes some sense, idk.

Just rolling with it...

Positive but cautious is good! Aloof but a available even better!

You are doing a great job laying back and letting W come to you when she feels comfortable.(and we both know they can't fake comfortable) As she becomes more comfortable, I think she will open up more and more, and you will see that "old" wife.

Maybe your kitty is letting down her guard, just a wee bit?

Keep up the fantastic job T, and enjoy your gardening today! Any backpacking plans in the near future?

T you continue to be my role model. You are doing great, wish I was doing as well...must think back to your example more.

CB

Originally Posted By: waitingformagic

T ~ I wouldn't have much to say on paper. I don't see any patterns or anything worthy of more than I put here. I would journal if I understood somethng. Please post an example of an entry that worked for you. Im not against it, but I might analyse it WAY too much. This forum keeps me organized.

Hi WFM, nice to meet you! My journal is mostly just a copy and paste of stuff I've written on this forum. Actually vice versa, I write out my pain and happiness in my journal first, then copy some of it here when I need the good folks to help me! I keep it in the notes section on my phone, and can read thru it when ever I want that way.

"And to end this post, W made an appt with IC...I hope the C is pro-marriage and W is mostly honest, and not just looking for what she wants to hear...time will tell. Not in my hands."

"Okay, that didn't sound right....
W took an action step, and told me rather pointedly. Implying she sees that she needs help working some things through...I am grateful. I am not going to judge this by past metrics. Beginner's mind. It is a new turn. There, that's better for who I want to be."

"So, I have this positive, but cautious, feeling in my gut...I could be wrong, and if so, that's okay too. Continuing to sit quietly, doing "me" the best I can, teamwork, etc. Aloof, yet available."

I love the way you word your thoughts, T^2. Aloof yet available indeed, that will be my goal this weekend, thanks

I knew exactly what you meant by hoping the C will be pro-marriage, and that your W will be honest. I started seeing a C in March, before switching to my DB coach. This C told me that she "does not believe in MLC" and just sees it as an excuse for bad behavior, and advised me to throw the bum out. I spent our first session educating her! She did some research and at our next sesssion, said she could not believe she was saying this, but she thought I was right, and should try to stand the best I can.

If your W saw someone like her, even if your W was completely honest with the C, the C would be advising that if W is not happy, she should divorce. A bandaid for pain, rather than an attempt to actually fix yourself and the R.

Carry on being aloof and available, my friend. And I bet a dozen of us on this forum will be striving to be like you today also. Thanks as always, for your help!!!

Linda

Originally Posted By: LindaM

This C told me that she "does not believe in MLC" and just sees it as an excuse for bad behavior, and advised me to throw the bum out. I spent our first session educating her! She did some research and at our next sesssion, said she could not believe she was saying this, but she thought I was right, and should try to stand the best I can.

Another fine example of, "When the student is ready, the teacher appears." So glad you were able to enlighten your C, Linda.

A good weekend, low-key, just chillaxing, puttering about the yard, garden, fixing/overhauling bikes...but good nonetheless.

So nice to have time with just my sons and I.

When W came home from work, she noticed my haircut immediately and said she liked it and that it looked good, AND, didn't give any grief over spending money... yay!

First time in a LONG time she has offered an enthusiastic compliment.

I wasn't into self-administered a clipper buzz cut this time, and W still isn't "up to" cutting my hair like she used to yet.

She also spent quite a bit of time telling me all about her day, which I am enjoying a lot...it's nice, and allows me opportunity to show T^2 v.2 and be her biggest fan!

She worked pretty much full time last week, and she said it may be a bit much for her, and also the kids right now....

Oh, and when she forgot her lunch I took it up to her at work, and I actually got in a compliment delivered somewhere between how you'd say it for your co-worker or sibling, and how you would for your lover...I got a nice reaction...

She told me about her IC plans, and has been going through her clothes and such, donating a ton (and she sort of made sure I saw the receipt I think)...I did see some things that I am GLAD are gone (a lot of replay clothes, shoes, etc), but then some things that I liked...but she's always been her own woman there, and of course I said nothing either way...

Of course I want to analyze it, figure out the secret "woman" symbol/meaning of it, since I am a simple kind of guy with regards to wardrobe, it's like a foreign language to me.

In all, that chaotic "mlc-energy" that has been permeating the house for the last 2+ years feels diminished right now. I am liking the "look" on her face, more consistently not her "mlc faces"...more the "real" her, yet some changes.

Looks like I used up my quota of smiley faces...
T^2

And my expectations are appropriate, I've been "touch and go'd" enough times to have learned...

Enjoying life and whatever may come...

That all sounds good T^2.

So no more talk of D? She was just afraid and thinking about it maybe?

I like the attitude in these last few posts of yours -- a settling down feeling without missing out on the important things of life (time with the boys, time to do special things for your W, holding the fort down, enjoying the gardening, appreciating who you are and letting her be who she is).

Keep up the good work!

Hi rH,

So glad to see your happy times in your sitch!

D has been touched on twice, though very "neutrally"...""if" we D, then"...sort of thing...but to be honest, I "think" she wants to figure out how to work it out. Things she has said her friends told her (that she needs a therapist, that they can't spend too much time with her because they need calm, positive in their lives, etc), her older friend who's been married to the same man for 30+ years and is a teacher and deals with kids of divorce, maybe her family some, working full time the last week or so (volunteering) and seeing what that is like... has her re-thinking things...plus the effects on the kids would be a major concern for her...but I just really don't know...just speculating from the bits she has shared and a dose of mind-reading...lol.

She did ask for some of the emails she sent me in the past before phase2 where she told me she loved me, and such, so I sent her a few "G-rated" ones

. Haven't heard anything, if she has read them or not...idk.

And she wants to see my lists of things we have in common, "complimentary differences" and differences that haven't worked that I did for myself from some MC material I have (I like to do my own self-checks to keep me in line with myself).

I wonder if my attitude is due to getting to a stronger acceptance/detachment state, and being done with self-created stress, drama, whatever...I just am going to be happy, trying to be the best I can, live the best I can, and self-creating life as an adventure, either reconciling and it's journey/adventure, or D, moving on and it's journey/adventure. Maybe touching on unconditional love, as I am really willing to let her go lovingly, if that is truly what she wants/needs...idk, rH, but I am not complaining...I rather like me and where I am atm...

T^2

and I do need to thank you, rH, for my current mantra of "aloof, yet available"...I believe it was you who posted that to me a while ago...

What great posts, T^2, you really lifted my spirits! I am so glad to hear you had a nice weekend with your sons, and that your W seems relaxed and happy. And I'm glad that her older friend who deals with the fallout D has on kids has her re-thinking things a bit.

Did she say why she wanted to read her old emails and list of things you feel that you have in common? Maybe wanting to check her current feelings against her former ones? Or something she wants to understand about herself before she starts with an IC?

Either way, I'm sure it is all due to your new happy attitude and the support you have shown her. It must be nice for her to be able to feel that you love her unconditionally. You are an inspiration to us all!

Happy to see where you are at T! That's so great to be in a place where you're going to feel happy no matter what happens. It sounds like W is leaning much more towards working on the marriage, which would be brilliant. I guess it's always a roller coaster right now, and sounds like you're prepared for anything. Thanks for being such an amazing inspiration for me.

Thanks folks!

Linda--She hasn't said why, so I can only speculate...maybe to see proof that she was happy and loved me before all this started, so maybe possible to feel that way again? That we do have lots in common, and complimentary differences (ie, I like to cook, she doesn't, me logical, her emotional, etc) and so a future R is more possible than she believed it to be?? I am sitting quietly, I trust the answers will come...

Raine--It is kinda a strange feeling being where I am, prepared and basically okay with whatever happens. Though I do still hope for R, and will do the work needed. All I can say is I am not complaining, the feeling is better than the devastation/worry/stress I had before in this journey.

I don't have too much exciting to post about me...I am in a "low-key", quiet mode...just doing my projects, thinking, spending time with kids, pondering, gardening, meditating, just whatever I feel like doing and what needs doing...and not worried about it at all.

Maybe this is a "vacation" or "recovery" of sorts...idk. But it is mine and my choice, just don't feel a need for "big stuff/projects/plans" right now...lol.

Let's see, W:
-put the new soap she bought that I said I really liked from the upstairs ("her") bathroom into "my" bathroom, a nice little surprise.
-communicated with me her change in work plans and such at the time they happened via text...this is new (again).
-sought me out a few times.
-still has the "softening" about her voice I mentioned before.
-is self-reporting (and at least when I am home I can back up) that she is avoiding getting on the computer except for mostly "work" things like looking for jobs, her EFT tapping videos, and some comedy on hulu.

Just reporting/journaling...

I'm glad you and your W are in a time of calmness and serenity. You must be doing something right!

Good news T^2 - glad to hear that you are in a good spot.

Stay strong!

Just wanted you to know I'm always reading your posts, whether on this thread or not.

You are in a much more stable frame of mind than I am. My and my H's moods are fluctuating wildly now, although someone on the outside would never be able to tell. I don't really know why. Working some things out? I rarely get any clues from him.

I admire your steadfastness and wish I was the same. Maybe if I keep reading your posts some of that will wear off on me!

Always have you tucked in the corner of my mind,
rH

Thank you Linda, SF and rH,

I still have my short mood swings, but overall I am good, just in a "quiet" phase right now I guess. W is definitely working something out, very withdrawn and seems depressed again. I give her space and be neutral to upbeat in my interactions with her, regardless of what she throws my way. But she has been more "low energy" as Cadet might say, and the vibes in the house were more peaceful, but she is processing, so that might change again.

The kids always help me be my best "me"...

My oldest deployed to fight wildland fires yesterday, not sure where he is yet, but he will let me know when he can...probably SoCal. It always saddens me some when he goes, miss him. It affects W too, so I keep that in mind.

I have come too far to quit yet, gotta see how this plays out, but I have my moments of wanting to toss it in like we all do I suppose. My L said to try to wait it out, from what I described and his experience, she may be on the tail end of the worst part...but idk, just rolling with it...

T^2

And my IC seems to think the same as my L, just be more patient a little while longer...gee, now where have I heard that before...

T^2

Good T^2, I remember the first lady L I saw said "give him 6 months. I've seen this before" and she was right.

Your kids are awesome I'm sure. I know what you mean about missing the oldest one as S19 is away for the summer and it seems so empty without him. But now S13 gets his two parents to himself for the summer

I have to also remind myself not to quit now! We've come too far!

Has EFT helped your W you think?

I think EFT is helping her, comparing to how she was before she started...it helped me too back a year or 2 ago.

Yes, the house is a bit quieter, something missing with S1 gone, and we all worry some as he does have a dangerous job, but he loves it with a passion, living his dream, so I am profoundly happy for him. What more could an honest man ask for his son?

It is funny, when a L, an IC and very experienced mlc forum vets all concur...guess I better listen and stay chill...lol.

The odds are overwhelmingly in your favor T. We could make some bank with those odds if we could bet on them. I really value your willingness to express the whole spectrum of your feelings. I feel that way too. For the majority of the time, I feel really good. I feel peace. But it's important to me to express my vulnerable moments here. It helps me overcome it and I also hope it helps others realize they're not alone in how they feel. When I read your posts, that's how I feel, that I'm not alone. I've come so far. T is hanging in there. I see so many positive things in his sitch. I can hang on too.

That is really neat about your son. I want that for my boys too. Whatever path they chose, as long as they do something they love.

Scary to think of your son out there fighting that giant blaze, that takes courage and dedication. I'm proud of him too!!

Yes, hang in there my friend. As Snodderly would say, your wife seems to be "baking nicely," nothing for you to do now but give her space by being your fabulous aloof, attentive self

I looked at a youtube instructing beginners on EFT. MaybeI'll give it a try too

T,
I'm praying that your son remains safe. His job is a dangerous one, but it's a passion of his and I'm sure it is one he does extremely well.

Your wife continues to "bake" up nicely. I know you and yor wife are so close to the finish line and yet, you have a ways to go, but please try to hang in there a while longer. She's come a long way in the last year, even the last 3 months, to give up now.

Try to enjoy the weekend.

Thank you folks for the safe wishes for my son, it helps

Raine, that was such a nice thing you wrote to me, I appreciate it, though I am not so sure I deserve it completely...but it was so nice to come into this morning, I'll take it...

Linda, David Childerly (sp?) has a lot of good free starter EFT videos on y-tube.

Snodderly, my patience dial is cranked up to 9 or 10, no hurries...

Got lots of stuff planned for the weekend, a major project and lots of "little" things, which is good because as I thought might be a possibility, W is a mental tornado today when she called me. But she did vent and include me, which is good. I let her know I was there for her and validated, she does think part of it is due to hormones so we'll just ride it out. It is so hard to NOT try to fix, make suggestions, etc and let her figure out her own way through...

"The greatest prayer is patience" -Buddha (my mantra for the weekend)

So I will be making a great weekend, will start removing the kitchen cupboard doors tonight to give the kitchen a fresh, happy, bright coating of white Sat and Sun.

T^2

Thanks for the info on David Childerley. EFT sounds so silly but was SO calming. Freeing. Thanks very much.

You and your W have BOTH come such a long way. I know it's hard for you to supress your strong male "fixer" nature and just validate, but you're doung great!

Remember it's not about the nail!

Hi all,

Well, I had myself a great weekend...got the peach trees thinned from extra fruit (last year they attempted "tree-icide via over fruiting") and the branches all neatly supported. They are looking good.

My oldest came home until next deployment, they kicked some desert fire butt and that was all to that fire. I love listening to his stories of the action...

Father's day was just a nice mellow day, we always have been laid back regarding the "hallmark" holidays, so I didn't have any expectations at all...so nothing special to report there.

W and I got the kitchen painted, and we "remembered" how well we work together, we have always had this natural "knowing" of each others strengths and preferences and luckily what one doesn't like, or isn't the better at, the other does or is...Man, I love natural flow teamwork...I made a crack that W would have to fill out the "executive team building and weekend rope course" evaluation and questionnaire at the end, which she laughed at. (yay!)

She is seeming more "herself" again, with some differences though, not making much out of them until I see what "sticks" I guess. Trying to roll with who she is now, as in today, because it'll change as she isn't done baking yet, heeding advice given to others here like TVS and rH...

Getting a couple more smiles out of her daily, and just being relaxed, fun, positive, somewhat mischievous, me...

I wonder if I can get her to moisturize my back yet? Two years of itchy dry skin back would be nice to be rid of...lol.

T^2

I'm glad the weekend went well. I think your wife is baking up nicely and you've given her ample time and space to work on her issues. Painting the kitchen can be a chore, but it sounds like the two of you knocked it out w/o a hitch.

T2, you are doing very well. Keep up the good work. BTW, yes, it's time to ask if she will moisturize your back. I think she'll do it for you.

Originally Posted By: TSquared2

we "remembered" how well we work together, we have always had this natural "knowing" of each others strengths and preferences and luckily what one doesn't like, or isn't the better at, the other does or is...Man, I love natural flow teamwork.

I love that ^ ^ ^ ^ too.
And oft my H and I have it and it's a pleasure.

We were working together last night supporting tomato plants with stakes and strings and we had that. There's no opportunity for teamwork during the "alien" phases.

T^2, you're doing so well, rolling with everything. I'm astounded that W said about the D and all that but is still obviously wanting to be at home. Well, I know about those strange changes-of-mind.

Glad to hear all the PMA oozing from your posts.

And nice to have the oldest son back safely with tales of bravery.

Seems like your W would be so skittish with physical contact...idk. In that respect, your W and my H differ greatly.

Hope you're having s good week

rH

Sounds like you had a great weekend! I love that you got back in sync with your W while painting. It was interesting to me that my H recognized how well he knew me and I knew him and that harmony isn't easy to find. I gathered he was feeling that at a time when things were not going well with Ow1. It's easy to find the surface level relationship, the infatuation, the physical. It's rare to find that soul to soul connection. They could leave and never find it again. Maybe that's what keeps them anchored, even if just slightly. Cause even in their fantasy world, there is that one thing they still can't find.

Keep it up Mr T!

"It's easy to find the surface level relationship, the infatuation, the physical. It's rare to find that soul to soul connection. They could leave and never find it again. Maybe that's what keeps them anchored, even if just slightly. Cause even in their fantasy world, there is that one thing "

oh Raine, but that's what my H says we LACK. He says that OW#1 (EA only) was his soul mate, and made him realize that he has never loved me

So now he's hooked up with OW#2, not a soul mate, but "they're in love with each other." I'm hoping that's the fantasy.�

I'm always so happy to read your posts, T^ you're making real progress! You give me hope, thanks for updating us! Does your son have to return to the fire?

T - I am impressed you and W are able to paint your kitchen together with everything going on in your R! In our best times, my W and I would have had major friction getting through that project together (we have difference paces for DIY jobs) and now, no way. Awesome! I continue to be amazed by your patience and as RH said, your PMA is off the charts.

Thanks for inspiring me!

CB

Linda, believe nothing they say...:) That "in love" feeling is easy to mistake for love. It's "in infatuation." He's searching for something that isn't there. You don't find love and a soul mate when you feel like trash. You find trash.

Hi T!

Just wanted to stop by to say hello

Happy to hear your oldest made it back safe and sound!

Glad you got those peach trees under control, I know the branches can become quite heavy. The thing I hate is peach tree = peaches falling on ground = bees everywhere. Love peach cobbler and pie though!

I think it's great you and W did a project together. Anything that builds rapport is a step in the right direction, even if it is a "chore". Maybe too, these types of things may be low pressure for her because the focus is on the job and not how you two are interacting?

Hey, I can always give your wife some pointers on applying lotion - I've had plenty of practice lol!

Sounds like you're doing well. Is your trip to your parents coming up soon?

Snodderly- Thank you, your advice and perspectives have been so helpful through this, I can't thank you enough...

rH- I don't know, I still think the last D talk, BD, was her frustration with herself and being "stuck", lost...maybe a run back into the tunnel like we have read, but I could be wrong. I don't know if my PMA is a result of getting to a higher level of detachment/acceptance, or that I finally internalized that happiness comes from within and just being happy living life, or if my intuition is picking up something good, or if I am just crazy, or a combo of all of the above...lol ...

The team work was so nice, yet W wasn't quite like she used to be, she seems rather quiet and introspective lately.

Raine- I am hoping she is figuring this out, and remembering we had something akin to this:

Quote:

"It's easy to find the surface level relationship, the infatuation, the physical. It's rare to find that soul to soul connection. They could leave and never find it again. Maybe that's what keeps them anchored, even if just slightly. Cause even in their fantasy world, there is that one thing "

Linda- S1 will be deployed again to different fires throughout the season, so I try to maximize enjoyment of him while he is here, because I know he will go again, a lesson for life there for me... (and it's hard to compete for time with his Aussie GF! She is MUCH hotter than me...)

CB- To be fair, I was really different this time in MY approach to the project, I was phrasing things like this: "I think we should start there, work our way here, etc. W, what do you think?" and listening to her thoughts and usually going with them because they were good, or the end result didn't depend on HOW we got there...I try really hard to remember W's validation issues growing up, her "inferiority" issues, self-esteem, etc... I still kick myself occasionally that I forgot these things over the years of the M...so intentional effort on my part to make her and equal partner in the project, and validate/understand her ideas and such. Turned off my engineer ego...

TVS- Thanks for stopping by! Yes, I thought of you and your sitch when I posted about my itchy back..lol. I think you are exactly right: "Maybe too, these types of things may be low pressure for her because the focus is on the job and not how you two are interacting? ". We are going soon on our trip, the 2 younger boys and I (S1 is on 1 hour notice for fire, so can't go as it's 6 hours away). W is still not going, and that is okay...she needs the break, to have time alone (for better or worse), few responsibilities, some time to process in peace

... and the boys and I need the break from her I think (well, I KNOW for me its true). It'll be a blast for the boys and I!

Let's see, W invited me to join her and the 2 younger ones to play Monopoly last night..this is new..and was done very nicely...trying to get back in the "family mode" groove? Maybe? Time will tell...

She does seem rather introspective right now, that sort of quietness versus a depressive withdrawal. She is starting to make a serious effort in the household area again, and...her clothes are touching mine on the drying rack and in the folded piles now! Lol, this is new, one of those little "things" we pick up with our mlc-ers behavior changes. No big deal, just an observation to have fun with here, no way I could have fun with it right now with W (though I thought it).

T^2

And some info for my own use, and anyone else (PON?)...I was thinking about what Snodderly said a couple/few weeks ago about W picking up on my anxiety and me temp checking W...so of course I had to run that down

From the psychologist who wrote the book on affairs that saved me and my sanity back in phase 1 in 2010...just something to chew on for myself.

Quote:

Here are some characteristics of a Non-Anxious person:
1. A Non-Anxious person conveys an aura of calmness, surety and confidence in both voice and body language.
2. A Non-Anxious person does not defend, explain, attack, blame, withdraw or react. A Non-Anxious person stands firm and is an emotional rock.
3. A Non-Anxious person has a huge capacity for empathy but little for sympathy.
3. A Non-Anxious person has no need for adrenaline or drama but is fueled by concern and the truth.
4. A Non-Anxious person can point out something huge, without it being a big deal. A Non-Anxious person speaks and it is heard � powerfully.
5. A Non-Anxious person can convey passion without and undercurrent of persuasion or neediness.
6. A Non-Anxious person is in control of self and has no need to control another.
7. A Non-Anxious person is admired and respected by most others, even though the other may see the world differently.
8. A Non-Anxious person states his/her position clearly and firmly.
9. A Non-Anxious person does not blink.
10. A Non-Anxious person refuses to play mind-games.
11. A Non-Anxious person conveys: what you see is what you get.

Speaking of those "those little "things" we pick up"...

Last night playing Monopoly, whenever I would give W rent money on her properties, there was no touching, but when she gave me money, her fingers seemed to always touch mine...just an observation to note in my journal. Fun if not taken too seriously...

Originally Posted By: TSquared2

Last night playing Monopoly, whenever I would give W rent money on her properties, there was no touching, but when she gave me money, her fingers seemed to always touch mine...just an observation to note in my journal. Fun if not taken too seriously...

My W and I used to sometimes play Monopoly together. The real fun started once someone started to run out of money, and we'd make up "special payment plans". Oh my!

I think I just passed go and collected $200!

T, you are in the zone, man. Good for you.

Your w is right where she is supposed to be. Working through things, figuring stuff out, trying to reconcile what she wants and needs.

Your job right now is to let her. And while she is, you continue to be the calm, strong, compassionate man that you are.

So that when she figures it all out, she realizes that you were there standing while lovingly letting her go to walk her journey.

T, this is one of the hardest parts in all this and you are doing wonderfully.

T^2, just wanted to share how calming your post is.
Thank you.
Thank you for just being who you are and sharing your help along this journey.

I like the Monopoly game family pic.
Sweet to notice her hands touching yours.

And FY hilarious about the special payment plans.
You're a riot!
How can your W not want you back?
It's b/c:
(altogether now)
[i

Oh no...the dreaded submit button was hit. Auugh!!!

S'posed to say:
we didn't break them so we can't fix 'em

Thank you UR and rH...

So, finishing up the Monopoly game in progress last night, S3 (the very "family-oriented" one) was doing everything he could to keep the game going, such as not collecting rents from the less fortunate players, etc. S2 asked him why he wanted to prolong the game. S3 said "Because we never do this all together, with you, me, Dad and Mom. It's always just you, me and Dad..."

W responded, "I'm ready (or able) to do this again now, we'll have more". (slightly paraphrased)

I didn't say a word, though I am sure at least one corner of my mouth turned upwards, it always does....

I know I'm last in line, so expectations still under control, nothing to change up right now, seems "aloof, yet available" is still working on my side as she works through her side....

Another entry of gratitude for my journal.

What a nice mental picture of your family playing monopoly; you're such a good dad. Interesting that your W deliberately touched your fingers. Did she make eye contact at the same time? And thanks for the list of traits of a non-anxious person, I'm gonna have to work on that

Thanks Linda, not sure if it was deliberate touching or not, and a couple times there was eye contact, but nothing "readable" ...

I think the less anxious the better, and even when we "think" we aren't showing it, our spouses know us too well and can pick up on it, which is pressuring I imagine. I know with W...pressure has been a complaint, MLC/issue driver, and something she has often had problems dealing with. I am pleased you found it useful

And time for a new thread....

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2360182&#Post2360182