Studies in Feral Cats, part 5 - DivorceBusting.com

Time again for a new thread...

Old threads:

#4 here: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2281706&page=1

#3 here: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2281702&page=1

#2 here: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2258452&page=1

#1 here: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2244252&page=1

I had an HRM moment last night with W...I was started to clean the kitchen and she stopped me, saying I wasn't doing it "right" and also she needed to bring up this weekend when I was washing the dishes and didn't do it "right", I asked "How so?". She replied "You weren't using the water right..."

I nearly burst out laughing (my first career was in the kitchen side of the restaurant business for over 15 years, so I am quite capable and fully, professionally trained on how to clean a kitchen and dishes). I know she saw me start a burst of laughter (I hide things so poorly), so she added that she knew she was being controlling and all, but it was important to her right now and she couldn't help it. A woman having a problem with her fully trained H doing the dishes...really?...lol...ummm...okaaaay. I wanted to say something else, defend myself more, but thought better of it, so I just said that's okay, I didn't necessarily agree with her about how I do dishes but that I can certainly work on changing how I do them. No big deal, hun.

Here is the interesting thing she said next, "I have to learn how to argue with you. How to be mad at you. We are both so sensitive. I read that couples need to argue these things out so they can be got out and let go of. We never really did that. We need to do that."

So using my sooooooper-dooooooper mind reading powers <gak>... seems to be a good thing, looking at the old R and what maybe wasn't working, and working on changing that and the "we" statements...idk...though I will put money down that I have a round of "testing" coming up shortly... lol, or is that *sigh*?

Thoughts, comments, always welcomed.

T^2

T2,
The fact that she is reading about relationships sounds like a good thing. When she said she had to learn how to be "mad at you" is she really saying how to be mad and still care for/love you at the same time? She probably does not know how. It is obvious throught this MLC you have mastered the "let go of" part of arguements but a controlling person always has a hard time letting go of or accepting things as they are. It is unatural to their charachter. Seems like i'm babling but i'm reflecting that my W could very well say those same words. Heck, I could say those same words.

Take care T2, i have always appreciated your insight into these deep matters. Me, I don't swim in the deep waters too often

Being able to effectively work out differences is absolutely key to maintaining a loving relationship, and this includes having healthy arguments. I don't know about you, but my wife and I seemed to avoid arguments at all costs, and the research I've done indicated that this can be a problem because differences get stuffed instead of resolved. This was a major premise in Andrew Marshalls book, ILYBINILWY.

I took two online courses to help me in this area, Interpersonal Communication, and Assertiveness training. Instead of letting everything go in an effort to keep the peace, I'll try to pick an issue here or there that I feel is important and stand up for myself. The few times I've done this I've always been shown respect, even if it wasn't until after the fact.

I believe a wife wants a confident man who is not afraid to voice his differences, not one that goes along with everything she says. If you never argue, don't be afraid to rock the boat once in a while.

Now that you have me thinking about it I think we're overdue for a good argument.

Oh T I am still laughing out loud about this, quite literally! I was not aware there was a wrong way to use water!!! This is classic! I'm going to be laughing about this for days! Good job on not saying the million funny responses that popped into your head at the moment!!

Being a woman, I think her reading about relationships and saying what she said to you are good things. My thoughts are why would you be reading about them if you weren't trying to work on yours? Just my opinion, and what makes sense to me, but then again we aren't dealing with logical people at the moment.

Hi T,

I was wondering if she was testing out how to talk to you about something she disagrees with... picking something small in order to test her "voice" and learn how to approach a disagreement so that resentment doesn't build?? Just a thought.

Originally Posted By: TSquared2

Time again for a new thread...So using my sooooooper-dooooooper mind reading powers <gak>... seems to be a good thing, looking at the old R and what maybe wasn't working, and working on changing that and the "we" statements...idk...though I will put money down that I have a round of "testing" coming up shortly... lol, or is that *sigh*?

Thoughts, comments, always welcomed.

T^2

Yes I get this I am developing a NEW DVD series for LBSers I am calling it HEARTS OF STEEL -- Makes Your Heart strong enough to take anything !!!

I gotta say now that you say this I notice that my wife is ALWAYS telling me how to do everything - I usually ignore it - maybe I should address it like you --

Wallowing in self pity today thanks for cheering me up with your positive attitude.

Thanks folks!

Yes, both of us have been conflict avoiders, and because we are both sensitive, have not really learned to have an argument without devastated hurt feelings, defensiveness, etc. She is on to something and maybe it is time to work on that, and learn that conflict isn't the end of everything and also to get this stuff out in the open.

Imo, I have to remember that "be right or be happy" mantra, she has to remember that just because she is mad at me doesn't mean that it's "over" or that I'm "not "the one"" sort of black and white thinking (which she admits to).

hrm, I got more info on the incorrect using of the water, and it was that I was using too much, which, I can see her point, which I told her. We live in the high desert after all and I am eco-conscious...I was trying to jam through them because there were SO many, my focus was on speed, not conservation, and I was making a bit of a mess because of it...so I am going to tell her that I am open to working with her and learning how she wants things to be, and that she needs to let me know how she wants things done, that is her responsibility...I can't mind-read...no matter how much I try...lol. If it is something that is important enough for me to disagree and do it differently, then we can have that discussion at the time and try to find a consensus.

needgrace, good catch!...I hadn't thought of that, and it makes sense completely from her upbringing and our history. I shall observe with this possibility in mind...

sunny, you don't really "usually ignore it", do you? You do have some response, right?

Originally Posted By: TSquared2

sunny, you don't really "usually ignore it", do you? You do have some response, right?

When she constantly berated and corrects me I thought I was supposed to ignore it - are we supposed to act positive all the time ???

Hi Sunny,

I took what you wrote "I notice that my wife is ALWAYS telling me how to do everything - I usually ignore it " as meaning that you usually just blew her off as if she didn't say anything at all, no acknowledgement of what she was saying, nothing...

...which is different than ignoring the fact that she was being unpleasant and being nice/cordial anyway. And why I asked because I couldn't tell which you meant.

Just some lyrics from Audioslave for those left behind, and possibly their walk away mates, we are them, they are us, disentanglement a hard won ideal...

Quote:

Well I been watchin'
While you been coughin
I've been drinking life
While you been nauseous
And so I drink to health
While you kill yourself
And I got just one thing
That I can offer

Go on and save yourself
And take it out on me
Go on and save yourself
And take it out on me yea

Well I'm not a martyr
I'm not a prophet
And I won't preach to you
But heres a caution
You better understand
That I won't hold your hand
But if it helps you mend
Then I won't stop it

Go on and save yourself
And take it out on me
Go on and save yourself
And take it out on me
Go on and save yourself
And take it out on me
Go on and save yourself
And take it out on me yea

Drown if you want
And I'll see you in the bottom
Where you crawl
On my skin
And put the blame on me
So you don't feel a thing

Go on and save yourself
And take it out on me
Go on and save yourself
And take it out on me
Go on and save yourself
And take it out on me
Go on and save yourself
And take it out on me yeah....

I do hope everyone has a great weekend, so much healing to be done, why not now?

T^2

Well, not much to report.

Things are, considering the time of year that W has historically had issues with, "almost" sorta "normal", aside from no physicality like kisses, hugs, etc. She seems to be running the depression/withdrawal cycle predominately right now. I am just rolling with it most of the time. Sometimes I get impatient, tired, depressed, but not for long. I remember last year at this time, the anger, spew, replay, flaunting OMs... is much better this year, that helps me get myself back up positive again.

I continue to see signs of improvement or progress with W, don't know the status of any OMs or cyber "exploring" (if any)...I am trusting my intuition here that it is minimal and being worked out of, if there is any at all. For all I know she is in the nc grieving process, idk...don't care too much either right now...keeping my focus on the big picture.

So, to help myself get an optimum level of PMA going for the holidays, I made a gratitude list.

Some things I gained from my wife's mid-life crisis:

-A better relationship with my kids
-An enormous new found patience
-A strength I never knew I had
-Forgiveness beyond anything I knew was possible for me
-Acceptance of reality in a way I never did
-My last "big" illusion dismembered
-Co-dependance identified, dissolved, now look for Interdependence
-My "Nice guy syndrome" is roadkill, now strive to be an integrated, KIND man
-Recovered some old parts of me that got lost along the career, kids, relationship way
-Cut away some parts of the current me that were no longer working
-A spiritual augmentation
-A new independence
-A new appreciation and knowledge of what really matters
-A better body, health
-A self-knowledge enhancement
-More faith, and trust, in myself
-Better ability to be a real listener
-Less judgmental of people
-Just "myself" back again
-A lot of paid time off from work accrued since I've hardy taken any days off from work, staying out of her, and my own, way...

So much more to do, grow, give, live!

Have a wonderful holiday all!

T^2

Forgot two:

-No more victim mentality
-The ability to be happy, find peace, despite circumstances in, or out of, my control

I am sure I will think of others now that I set my mind in that direction.

Wow. Great list. That's definitely something to celebrate!

Thanks SD! I appreciate it, it was a hard won list.

As soon as I post something here on my sitch, seems something changes or new info arrives...lol

Tonight talking with W on the phone, she let out that she is trying to learn how to talk/communicate with me differently, not dump all her issues onto me all the time, as been our mode for a long time. She sees that it is an old habit that she wants to change. And thinking back over the week, there has been a more nice or pleasant tone in general about her when she interacts with me that I've noticed...

As MWD says, look for the small things when you think things are not progressing...

This sounds very, encouraging, T^2!

You have amazing self-growth you have identified and she is concerned AND working on not just her own issues but issues WITH you!

Much better than last Christmas, no?

Keep being your wonderful (kind) self!!!

rh

All you need now is a little mistletoe.

Hey T^2!

I really like your list. I have only got about 1/4 of your list, I guess I still have a long way to grow......

I continue to try to be a better person. I continue to feed my feral cat, though I have no legal obligaton to do so!

I was glad to hear about the new direction your W is taking in communicating differently with you. A very positive sign.

Here's hoping the holidays are great for you!

Thanks all!

Journalling...

Xmas was interesting...the days before W was spinning through cycles of distance, annoyance, controlling...I just rolled with it, usually good naturedly. I took the younger ones xmas shopping and got all the stuff for a nice xmas dinner. I marinated the leg of lamb for 2 days in rosemary, garlic, dijon mustard, olive oil and a splash of merlot...it was sooo good!

W emailed me thanks for helping so much, doing the food and taking the boys shopping, it really helped her, and she also thanked me for being so patient and understanding with her moods. Sunday she initiated snuggling with me when we were talking about xmas and things.

Xmas eve day she had a break down, tears flowing, saying she was so tired of feeling the way she did, the controlling, the negativity, the cycling of moods, she laid with her head on my chest. I just listened, validated every now and then, just let her get it out. She got thirsty after a while, I offered her my glass of water, she sorta hesitated and I just said that I was "pretty sure" it was okay, that I didn't have the bubonic plague or koodies or anything like that...that got me a smile and a playful smack on the arm...

She initiated a hug later in the evening.

Xmas day started off interesting with her controlling taking pictures, I wasn't supposed to, I just said okay. After a few minutes she started taking pics, lol. I just looked at her with my mischievous, happy look and something changed with her after that, seeing me with the boys, idk....saw the old W for the rest of opening. Afterwards she thanked me for rolling with her after explaining her behavior. At dinner she took my hand and held it, fingers stroking mine, above the table for a few minutes. The look on the boys faces was priceless.

So it was a much better xmas than last year, for sure. I will be interested to see if the energy change sticks around...I do expect it to fluctuate of course, but we will see. Oh, and she seems to like the rogueish beard thingy I have going, said it was very masculine.

T^2

The best Christmas present of all:

Originally Posted By: TSquared2

The look on the boys faces was priceless.

Good work T^2!!!!!!

Hey T^2!

Sounds like a wonderful Christmas!

It seems like great progress if your W feels "safe" enough to let everything out and express herself to you. It must be kinda scary for them to be so confused all the time, so out of control with their emotions. To hear her say that she is tired of the cycling emotions... Wow, that probably helped to once again put things in perspective.

The non-affection is tough, isn't it? I'm glad your W was able to show you a few small signs. It's weird because it seems my H is always looking for reasons for me to touch him (back scratch, neck rub, fix collar, etc.), but will NOT touch me at all. I don't get it.

I will say that this entire time he has no problem drinking from my glass or eating from my fork. It is strange how each MLCer gets a bug up their butt about certain things. It always amazes me when I read about hrm's H (hi hrm!) not even eating the same meals and buying his own food.

I hope the energy stays positive, and have no doubt you can roll with the changes. (Insert REO Speedwagon here)

Have a great last few days of 2012. I have a feeling 2013 will be an awesome year for you

Hey T! Sounds like some good stuff going on!! Glad to hear your Christmas went pretty well!!

Hi TVS, you won't believe this but H actually ate some of the cake I had made yesterday! Shocking I know.

T I hope everything continues in the direction it is for you!

Sounds great T, I'm really happy for you... and jealous.

T,
Your holiday sounds like it went quite well.

May the new year bring a much needed "warming trend" and she finally finishes facing her demons and returns to you completely healed.

Enjoy the rest of the holiday season.

Thank you Snodderly, FY and all...

I have needed to step back a bit from the board, doing my own work internally.

Well, NYE I set myself up a nice expectations trap since W "came out" during xmas and was a bit disappointed that W was back withdrawn and "inside". It was hard because NYE was my favorite holiday. But it was an improvement over last year when she had her own virtual party online cybersexing or whatever she did. This year she was doing her EFT tapping, knitting, not online at all, but still withdrawn...notice the small things T, the small improvements...lol...

I had my birthday, she didn't do or say anything about it, but we all know mlc'ers DO that, so I wasn't disappointed...I gave myself the gift of knocking off a bunch of little, but important, things off my perpetual list...I feel great about that and the pressure/annoyance relief. Then I went and re-arranged my office/studio with one of my sons, I think it will help me get more music recorded going forward, much better efficiency and feng-shui. Of course, now I have a pile of stuff left to sort, file, donate, etc...hit that tomorrow. Finished the night off with a couple of episodes of Spartacus. I am happy with the day.

Other than that, W is doing her internal journey, I just do whatever it is that I do...have some nice goals for 2013 lined up to keep me busy. I feel that something is going to change soon, even W says its pretty much her sorting out herself...idk, trying to not spend too much energy fretting about it either way and let things be, and let them work out as they are supposed to in their own time.

T^2

T,
Sometimes you have to step away from the board in order to work on yourself.

I'm sorry you had a little bit of a let down over NYE. You recognize what you did and now you need to step back and allow her to continue to figure things out. Step back and continue w/no expectations.

BTW, Happy Belated Birthday!

Time and space are on your side as well as hers. She recognizes that she still has some work to do. Don't get caught up in her comments, but pay particular attention to her body language and actions.

Hi T!

Rereading your post, I wonder if your W may have been more withdrawn NYE precisely b/c it was your favorite holiday. And she isn't quite ready to be to total acceptance yet.

I'm expecting the same for Valentine's Day in my sitch. H asked me to marry him on bended knee on a Valentine's Day so I always made that day/memory special. I hafta be careful to stay away from any expectation this year.

You've been through some horrible stuff these past years! I think it must be harder having her at home, having to see some of her activities! You're a strong man!

Wonder if the EFT tapping is helping at all? I wonder what this year holds for you. It all sounds really good! You are the best at detaching!

It's nice when our spouses exchange the rose colored glasses for reading glasses

Hope you have a very nice and productive week!

Hi rH,

That is some good insight, regarding the holiday...I wonder if it another subconscious "control" thing they do right now.

I think the EFT is working, she still is determined to do this AD-free and she hasn't yet sunk into a deep depression, though it is still there. Funny thing she did on my b-day, she emailed me a bunch of tapping scripts for me to print out for her, maybe a "gift" of indirectly saying "I'm still working on things"? Actions, actions, not words...Who knows...

I am still working on the detaching...I DO have my moments of non-detached, lol...but I am getting better at noticing when I am not detached and taking action to NOT say/do anything that would set back any progress, or just makes things worse for me in any fashion. Heck, walking around all hurt and such is NOT how I want to be (queue Monty Python here...) it's not part of my "idiom".

I can't wait until I can tell her she looks cute in her readers (and hot in a librarian sort of way when I'm feeling randy...lol). Right now best to not offer anything until she gets more accepting of them, unless she asks first...

How's the home-schooling going? I miss it, though even with a charter school there is still lots of "home schooling" to do, it's just not the same, though.

We just have to be sure to be our best selves, but still our TRUE selves right now, eh?

T^2

Thanks Snodderly!

Getting better at catching myself, even after the fact, and getting the boots on and back to it.

48 is the new 28, right?

T^2

hey hi-

sounds like your holidays went okay- so yay for you. we all live for the tiny positive steps - (what the heck do they mean? i do not know) HOWEVER - better than tiny negative steps for sure... and good stuff about reorganizing your work space/studio. i struggle with that particular "concept" continually. i love when my neice or someone young helps me out- they love contributing and helping an "adult". isn't it cute- they actually think we know what the heck we're doing all the time (as opposed to merely some of the time - or a glim mer now and then of direction (me anyway)).

man- youth - it's worth gold. lucky you to have kids to "play" with.

i guess if you can do it (redo studio) - and then "address" your pile of removed stuff- ican too. maybe tomorrow morning-

sorry w came in a bit and went back out- like the tide huh? we do get fooled don't we? i don't know- i'm in funny place becasue holiday was spent in big rush & then everyone sick as heck til now (me, h & mom) . then mom in hospital new yr day a.m.- boy, i never began my year eve being nurse ratchet and then dragging some poor sap into the hospital next morning.

i'm not seeing it as a good omen- but i'm glad i'm not 88, and i'm glad i'm not sick & i'm glad someone else is watching & fighting with mom at moment to eat & drink-

soooo- yay for a day or two repreve. it's all relative isn't it?

happy new year

Hey T,

Just wanted to pop by to say hello and wish you a happy belated birthday.

Christmas, New Years, and your birthday all within a few weeks? Sounds like an MLCers trifecta from hell!

I think no matter where we are at in our journey, it is hard to detach but still observe. To look for signs, but not have expectations.

Heck, we're only human! And we have feelings too, darn it!

When the time is right, definitely compliment your wife on her glasses. My H used to tell me all the time how much he liked my glasses, how cute I was in them. That I reminded him of Lisa Loeb. I miss that

Well, get those boots on and keep on keepin on.

You always do, Obi Wan

Originally Posted By: Takevowsserious

I think no matter where we are at in our journey, it is hard to detach but still observe. To look for signs, but not have expectations.

I'm starting to believe we all detach as much as we need to, no more, no less... kinda go with the flow, just like a good fighter. Sure, we may miss a block or forget to duck occasionally and take a hit, but we come back smarter and stronger every time.

I like that FY, I think we may all end up body builders by the end though! Lol

Quick update...for my records and anyone wanting to see what is in the mind of a mlc'er climbing out of the tunnel...

So after xmas W went back within, as posted earlier. This weekend she let me in on what is going on within her via email. As Snodderly and the vets say, the answers DO come, just be patient.

She is wrestling with/within herself about the kids and what she does (the effects of the depression/processing):
"the worst about this feeling is not being able to get stuff done and enjoy them more... spend time with them... and both of those are my main issues with myself right now "

And also within was this:
"he is moving beyond his childhood right now and that makes me sad and he was a pre-teen during these last 4 years when i vacated... and i had chances to do more with him but didn't ..now he's different and it makes me so sad"

I feel so bad for her that she has these thoughts and feelings. I just validated and told her I trusted that she would figure things out for herself, and that I trusted that she would let me know if there was something I could do to help.

There was only one thing regarding me, and, I swear she has a PTSD-like reaction to certain things that places her back to a time in the past and her feelings then...I was discussing what to do about the much UN-needed paycheck reduction this year, and I said things like "I'm considering doing X", "I'm thinking about Y"...just brain-storming, and she interpreted that as us dis-agreeing when she didn't like X or Y and it dredged up feelings and re-actions in her from our past. I did get a chance to re-affirm that I was just tossing ideas out, etc, but I don't like that she spent a couple days thinking/feeling that we had some financial disagreement when we didn't, so I need to keep this PTSD-like reaction in mind going forward so that I am more clear. Or maybe not, maybe this is what she needs to do to learn how to live in the present...idk.

Otherwise, nominal to profile, as much as can be...

T^2

T,
Patience will get you from point X to point Z, but it's a very slow process when they are slowly, but surely processing everything. So, I'm asking you to dig deeper for patience and understanding right now.

Your wife is still very fragile and she's still trying to understand things that may have happened in the past. She may very well be comparing her own childhood situation w/the way that she's handled her own children's childhoods. Some day, she will tell you about it, but you've got to be patient.

I know you weren't too happy that she spent several days mulling over the financial situation, but relax, they do this because they are starting to see life w/o the rose colored glasses. Has she always done this before even when she was in the fog or was this a new reaction for her?

Hang in there. You are doing great...try not to get too impatient...your wife is actually further along than I thought she would be at this time. Just remember, you are trying to get a skittish kitten to come to you and you know how hard that is at times!

T^2, I LOVE your reaction here:

Originally Posted By: TSquared2

I just validated and told her I trusted that she would figure things out for herself, and that I trusted that she would let me know if there was something I could do to help.

Thank you for sharing this post and quotes from the email. It is SO encouraging to the rest of us. You are doing great. I'm sure you never pictured the positive changes in yourself that have come from this journey with your W. Yes, I know, we each have our own "journey" ...but there is the one together too. You are an incredibly kind, understanding and patient man. Yet, maintaining the core of masculinity, support and detachment. Nice!

I can't wait till your W wakes up totally.

The male friend I called last week (long time friend of H & I) said "rH, don't put a timeline on it. If it took three years and it was the best thing that ever happened to you, wouldn't you wait? Just roll with it, work on yourself and be there for him."

I think the timelines are good to re-evaluate ourselves and if we want to go on helping our mate. But, when we see steps in healing, we have to be patient and wait and grow and learn. And like you said, T^2, long ago, maybe it's why we were put in our spouse's lives. It helps both of us

Hope you have a great week!

Hi Snodderly and rH,

Thank you!
I think she has always done this, what may be new is her ability to identify what she is feeling and thinking, and not jumping to any one black or white conclusion, if that makes sense. She does have difficulty letting go of the past, always has.

Funny how whenever my patience cup gets low, something is done or said to fill it back up with understanding...I'm glad I'm a "the cup is half full, not half empty" kinda guy these days....

Hey T^2!

Good to hear things are perking along!

I think of you everyday. And I send a little wave of positive energy your way.

Aloha,

Wendy

Thanks Wendy!

I read from your sitch that you are perking along yourself and creating your own waves!

Just a small last thing from W's emails:

W:i'm sorry i dumped on you... i don't feel good about that because i don't want to make you feel bad or give you my problems and i'm trying to work things out for myself...

Me:It's okay, sometimes people need to do that...and I have learned what to do with it now, whereas before I didn't and took things too personally and whatever...that is past.
You are important to me.
You will work things out.

And she did talk/dump to me in person yesterday, sought me out even..lol. I got some answers inadvertantly to some questions I had about some recent behavior...I didn't ask or bring it up at all, she just said it on her own. Maybe she is aware of what I might be thinking about it or how it might look, idk. A small thing, but a nice thing regardless.

I'm just flowing along, que sera, sera ...

T^2

T,
Every day is is a new one and your w is starting to feel a bit more like herself and feel safe around you. She's still a bit fragile, but you are giving her the much needs space and showing her that she has a safe place to land.

You responded appropriately to her email. Keep up the good work.

T^2,

I continue to be super impressed with your coping skills and ability to not let W's issues become about you. I'm not there quite yet, but I want to be, I really, really want to be.
J.

Thank you Snodderly!

J- You will. Give yourself time. You will.

Idk, I guess when I realized that W's MLC was a defining moment in MY life, and our kids', I realized that I had to decide what I was going to make it be...what did I want to think about it 20 years from now? What do I want my kids to think about how I handled it, now, and 20 years from now? And W?

You have to define this for yourself and your kids, define what kind of man your are, and are going to model for your kids, then the rest starts falling into place and you know what to do, what to find within yourself. You can't fix W, but you can fix and build YOU, better than before.

That was one important thing I told my self when I finally accepted what she was telling me and decided to move out. I want my kids to say that their dad did the best job he could for them. I'm trying to live up to that every d@mn day.
J.

Quote:

I'm trying to live up to that every d@mn day.
J.

And you will!!

hey hi-

i think you're on to something. i've wondered many a time how the heck we never argued for 35 years- now i'mt hinking maybe we should have been. certainly for past ten when things were gettin wierd (and h was getting wierd).

anyway- i too (and h) always avoid the conflict- we've not-fought ourselves into some corner and don't know if we'll ever get out.

i totally lack the phrases & technique to control a conflict or conversation. or even begin one in a constructive way. it's become apparent- i ALWAYS lose. it's just a given. i don't think either of us admire that. i'm not good at saying "i want this"or that.

i don't chuck my opinion or stand- i just don't prevail - ever.

maybe that's something about me i can work on- where the heck to begin? have a suggestion maybe? neither of us want to push around the other guy- so we end up just letting him/her go - it's wierd. cripes...

I've always felt if their were no arguments someone is lying. I've heard people say that before about their marriage and I've thought someone is very selfish and someone is very giving, and that's not healthy. Their should be conflict. Men and women are so different. But we can learn to communicate without hurting each other.

i hope you're rite.

I have no idea how i will ever get this guy to talk. he's said a million times he liked that i talk and he doesn't have to.

you are right i guess- he is a liar and i'm a talker/giver.

I wonder tho- finding this out after SOOOO many years (35) what the heck does it mean? can it change- or really will i be wasting yet more years of my life on a r not worth it. (conclusion i'm coming to)

this has shaken my faith in him as a person rite down to the core- perhaps he is not a good person & worth it?

maybe i'm a block head and every single time he said something ratty & wiseguy - that he posed as "teasing" and i took that way - when it was actually "truth" and he knew and i didn't.

possibly i've been deluded my entire life- so now-

i don't know- thanks for comments- i think you're rite. maybe i'm just "too late" in finding out who he is REALLY.

IT'S a hell of a long time to be mistaken about this guy...

(also begs the question what the heck has he been doing keeping me there with lies????? who the heck would want such a doofis - if that's what i was and he knew it all along.... what the heck does that make him if that's as high as he aspires? (i mean, i think i'm really special - but what the heck is he doing in this r for so long if i've just been his "patsy" -) one sure has to wonder..

boy - oh - boy- what a pile of spagetti my life & brain is at this moment.

xxo

Hi Nero,

I like what Hopper said about conflict, and I think actually BOTH persons can be too giving and too selfish, I think W and I traded roles there depending on the issue.

I think that you were NOT mistaken about your H for most of those years, it's just that now, someone else is in his body and mind and who knows which H is going to prevail in the end.

Sometimes I think the angry spew stage is like some uncontrollable out pouring of everything they had held inside since, well, they were kids or so. They never learned how to have a constructive argument, and neither did we, even though, in my case, I could at work in the duty of my job, but at home with W? Heck no! The closeness and deep personalness made it too risky I imagine, for me to have the confidence that I have at work.

There are a lot of communication websites and all out there, nero. Even in the head of the mlc forum I believe there is a communication tips post from one of the coaches. I started working on my conflict and communication skills with my co-workers and customers, good practice. Then I slowly worked it into my dealings with W, lots of trial and error, and personal stress due to the fact I risked her leaving or crazy spewing or something unpleasant, but it was a good growing pain...

Take a lot of deep breathes, have you tried meditating? I recommend this meditation they use for vets with PTSD, seems to work well, just google "Be still and know exercise". It helps me, and 2 of my kids use it as well. Also, check out EFT or "tapping", lots of free follow along videos on youtube.

Write things out, make lists of what you want in life (aside from H coming to his senses), what things you need to improve about you, and how you are going to get those things...make a plan, nero, make a plan, write it out...that will help with the spaghetti brain...how do you disentangle and eat a plate of spaghetti? One noodle at a time....

T^2

I found the tips for communication in my scrape and paste DB library...

Here ya go!

Quote:

I had a caller ask me about the specifics about what helps make communication more positive and productive. And as a coach, it reminded me that going back to some important basics might boost your talks with your spouse. Michele calls these the �Ground Rules for Constructive Conversations�.

1. Use �I� messages.
For example, instead of saying, �You get me angry� say �I get angry when you do �X�
or
�You�re trying to hurt my feelings� say I get hurt when you say �X��

2. No mind reading. Try not to tell someone what they are thinking or feeling.
Examples: �You did that to get back at me�
�I know you how you�re feeling�
�It�s obvious you�re in a bad mood�

3. Remember that you or your spouse�s feelings are neither wrong or right. So, if you are one that tells your spouse what they �should� or �should not� feel a certain way, try hard to take that out of your conversation!

4. Leave the past in the past. Bringing up �old stuff� can leave the blamed one with a sense of �why try� because they know they cannot fix the past. Focus on the present, more viable issue.

5. Avoid �always� or �nevers�. These are adjectives that also invite hopelessness or a �why try� attitude because they communicate to your spouse that any positive attempts they have made have been totally overlooked and/or disregarded.

6. �Whys� can be heard as judgments or put-downs. �Why didn�t you take out the garbage?� �Why do you always have to do it that way?� �Why can�t you be nicer to me?� Can you sense the attacking mode? That will more likely invite a defensive response, right?

Remember to stick to the point and be concrete in your discussions. It probably goes without saying to avoid name-calling, right? And if one of you needs a time out, then please allow each other that breather.

And here�s my favorite one from Michele: Unless he or she is deaf, then he or she has heard you! Instead of constantly repeating the same thing over and over, trust that your spouse has heard you the first time. It might be a good idea to make your point, then let it go. As Michele suggests, in the following days watch to see if your request or concern has been acted upon. When someone feels less pressured or controlled (and that can happen when one feels nagged), they are more willing to respond to the request. I think you�ll be pleasantly surprised!

tsq

Quote:

even though, in my case, I could at work in the duty of my job, but at home with W? Heck no! The closeness and deep personalness made it too risky I imagine, for me to have the confidence that I have at work.

i find it alot easier in a professional setting as well- everything. it's sooo well-defined and just easier.

thanks for the communication & meditation (typed medication - freudian?? or what) info - in your other post- i'm copying it to save. you recommended something once before i lik3d and printed. got to go find it. maybe constructive conflict management info (everything i own has been lost during last two years - no kidding)

marbles mostly.

when you were talking about spew - i was thinking this h of mine never has "talked" and never really "spews". BUT THEN - NEWS FLASH POSSIBLY- sooo, would several years of being itchie & scratchie & critical & confrontational and me (of course) going toe to toe - is that SPEW? TOO. when i hear it i envision someons standing there letting loose. he just was a miserable stinking edgie crab alllll the time. i walked on eggs - i never thought of that as same thing- but whattyathink?

i think in retrospect he was just trying to make me fight so he could tell himself i'm awful - and we're really unhappy- because he knew what he was doing & treasonous - and i was entirely clueless...guilt? but could it be spew ? or is that something else entirely?

or is this just caught up in the words and doesn't matter a bit. i do like lables & follwoing the rules & guidelines

i do need to breath - i'm going to go have a fast walk & burn it off- best thing. well, that and paint. i paint walls lke mad.

Quote:

I think actually BOTH persons can be too giving and too selfish, I think W and I traded roles there depending on the issue.

maybe us too- it's hard to look back and winkle out every single little tiny rivelet & stream. here am i on the edge of an ocean- (i'm a lousy swimmer btw) -

i still fear inciting a riot - i hate feeling the aftermath of jumbled feelings & hurt after i get "whammed" (or so it feels). maybe i'm a big martyr? no objectivity- avoidance today for me.

you know- this make a plan. i find it difficult- i loosely want to feel happy and calm in life. i need a job "in the end" i know- don't dread it - dread finding it. something will turn up. might need to walk away- no guts yet for that. i don't know what else to plan about or for.

i've never been much of a "lifes plan" kinda gal- i'm a stinkin floater - aquarian. peace - love & happiness man.

got none- i am BREATHING -i'll go walk & printout the tips & study- if i can learn something new- i feel waaay better- thanks. need that man input sometimes-

ug - man with bumps(woman) like...

t sq

hate to be a pest - but here's what i'm needing man point of view on this a..m..

I thought maybe it was you who said h uses humor to broach a very touchy subject - not necessarily to ridicule - but to ease into it (his e-mail yesterday about want to yell at me today or tomorrow).

so- this business of me being in nj and him in fl. he sees ow. i know it- don't feel the overwhelming distress i used to-

BUT - WHEN he's going to her- with her- just back from there, honestly- i don't' want to "chit chat" with him, i don't want to know him. the longer he is away- the harder it becomes to look forward to seeing him. i hate that he chooses to have that aspect to his life and i cannot put a good face on it.

what the heck? does he think i'm gonna ask what he did for his weekend? get laid maybe, you see how icky i get how quickly.

what's your call? talk or stfu til i'm under strict control?

i'm thinking latter - but wonder if i'm disregarding some olive branch and being a jerk. (tho, mind you, this olive branch in no way inplies any cessation of ea).

whattyasay?

when he calls or e-mails - am i "supposed" to reply - is it good form to do so? if i don't want to hear his voice should i really force myself to rise above this and do it- make the gesture in response to his gesture?

whattyathink about that junk. it plagues me.

i'm a nice guy- i try to be -

Hi nero,

Humor can be a diffuser for someone who not comfortable "opening up".

STFU for me means 2 things, based heavily on Sandi2's 37 rules (you do have those memorized, right?

:

A: I don't initiate conversation too much, just let W know I am available...

"Hi W, want to talk, check in, whatever?" "No? Okay, you know where to find me if you do" Then I go about my business...

B: When she does come around, I stop whatever I am doing (put the book down, turn away from the computer, put the guitar down, etc) and give her full attention, validate, ask questions about whatever she is talking about, etc...basically I put any personal "agenda" aside and it's all her showtime.

So, yeah, if he initiates conversation, ask him how his weekend was, and then just listen, nod head, ask non-threatening/non-R/non-OW questions, let him divulge anything, trip himself up, etc.

Basically be available, but don't "push" to talk, initiate just for an opening, then let him drive...

Snodderly sums it up nicely:

Quote:

It's especially important to pay close attention to what the mlcer says and not offer any solutions to their problems. They need to feel "safe" w/the person they are w/in order to open up. They do not want to be judged or talked down to when they do open up. This is where acting as a friend will assist you. You have to become an "outsider" in order to do this. Pretend the mlcer is just a buddy that you see every now and then and not your spouse. If you can do this, you will have a better opportunity to have them open up at some point. Don't push the mlcer to talk! Let them initiate the dance and you follow.

Hope that helps some!

well, as a "girl" -

i'd say i feel the same way about my h and I - and here i am, dbing, and sufferin succotash rite along with everyone else.

i would construe her comment to mean that she assumes (either consciously or unconsciously) that in future you guys will be interacting enough to work on how to do it- how to argue- how to "make it better" this time, etc. so, i'd think that was positive, no? working on future communications?

just my take on her comment.

otherwise - she's nuts because anyone in their right mind will take help with the dishes and be glad of it. even if it's rin tin tin doing them with his tongue. anyone that's not me- i'll take it. yay...

t sq

oh cripes-

Quote:

B: When she does come around, I stop whatever I am doing (put the book down, turn away from the computer, put the guitar down, etc) and give her full attention, validate, ask questions about whatever she is talking about, etc...basically I put any personal "agenda" aside and it's all her showtime.

i picked up phone this a.m. and was in good form- somewhere in he conversation he asked something that ended up in me responding with: "well, i have trouble switching gears - you go away for 3wks and it's a long time and i force myself to get serious about getting used to not having you in my life - then you call and i'm supposed to be able to turn on the charm and want to talk to you. it's wierd and not easy for me to do.

he didn't commen6t on that- just proceeded and we had an okay conversation- chatty - lite, etc.

is that wierd or what and was i sounding needy . i said it in a very offhand way- smile in my voice - nothing heavy. it just accidentally slipped out because it was the answer to his query.

cripes- i despair of getting this casual inscrutible thing down pat.

I did encourage him to talk - i did pay attention & respond in cheery & not-ramblie fashion. i swear - i'm tryin here.

then i think i said the wong thing - and feels futile. do we get "punished" for not being perfect?

i do let HIM call here- i sure am bad at this not feeling allowed TO want company when i want company-
\\
\yeah - i do come here or find a friend, BUT........you sure sound very good at putting aside your own needs & "agenda".

HI folks,

Need some help here...

I have to "take control" of the kitchen/cooking/menu/grocery shopping very soon due to the tax changes and health insurance premium rise...basically that killed what little slack we had in the budget...the trick for me is to do so without being controlling, coming off as controlling (one of those 180's of mine) and without damaging W's fragile self-esteem right now.

So here is what I am thinking of saying:

"W, you have told me several times recently that you do not like working in the kitchen, cooking or grocery shopping right now, that it is stressful to you. I have heard you.

Due to the tax and insurance changes, the family needs to stretch the food budget, like our Mom's had to do in the 70's and early 80's...I used to do menus, cooking, food buying and kitchen work for a living, and when the kids were younger. I LIKE to do these things, so FOR RIGHT NOW I need to "take over" this area until you have healed and then we can figure out what to change up. I think me taking the decisions, spending and responsibility here will help you heal by reducing your stress and giving you more "space".

This is not a judgement of your ability, just that for right now, it's something you shouldn't need to worry about while you heal. I will get the boys involved, S2 is excited to help already, and it will be something we do together, and I can teach them this stuff."

So that's how I want to lead this off, any thoughts?

Hopefully she'll be all for it...but since this was/is (idk her current status here) a control issue for her, I have to be prepared for resistance...and then any suggestions how to proceed?

Ya know, the rational, business side of me is just shaking it's head that this is even an issue, for an H to take over these duties...but the other side can understand her...she even has said, both verbally and via email, "I'm a SAHM, its my job, why can't I get into it and just do it?"...

Anyway, comments, tips, etc appreciated as always.

T^2

That sounds great T!

But as we all know, things don't always go exactly as planned with our aliens

If she does resist, maybe put the ball back in her corner. Ask her what suggestions or ideas she has.

Since decision making may still be tough for her, maybe give her some time to process everything, then see what she says.

I like the idea of getting the kids involved... This doesn't make it about you or her, but about your whole family.

You will do great, I have no doubt!

Maybe you should start a new thread... Budget saving recipes!

I, for one, would be quite interested

Thanks TVS,

I was planning on emailing whatever I end up saying first, while I'm at work, so she has time to process and get used to the idea, before verbally discussing (yup, done learned that lesson, I have).

Getting the kids involved is a priority, I am SOOOO thankful to my Mom for teaching me how to cook, clean, do laundry...she wanted to make sure that I wouldn't be one of those guys who was dependent on a woman to take care of him...

Hmmm...now THAT has certainly come in handy the past few years...lol. And I had a nice early career cooking, and a lifetime hobby/joy.

Can you come cook at my house? This woman you married is sadly missing out on a man who is able to take care of himself in so many ways! She obviously doesn't see how lucky she is! You are a RARE commodity! :-)

Heather

Well TVS, a lot of budget savings can be made in the menu process, for example:

Meal 1 - Pork Chops with mushroom sauce, steamed veggies, baked lentils with cheese, rice. While prepping, make extra so you have leftovers, and prep extra for next meal.

Meal 2 - From many of the previous leftovers, and pre-prepped...Pork Fried rice (diced pork chops, the extra rice and veggies from meal 1), Egg Rolls, Hot'n'Sour mushroom soup.

Etc. Do it right and you reduce prepping for the next meal, and, typically I would have 2 nights a week of free-for-all left-overs, so no cooking. And since W is a vegetarian, I always try to plan so I make stuff she can eat, and I love vegetarian food as well. Which is another budget saver, adding in more vegetarian meals and dishes, especially since animal protein seems to be getting very expensive quickly. Hope the midwest breaks its drought...

Also, when shopping, stick to the "outside" ring of the store (the fresh stuff like produce, meat, etc), minimize the center (the boxed, bagged processed stuff)...cooking from scratch and raw ingredients is always cheaper than the convenience foods.

And use the flyers to find the specials, grocery stores, especially the major ones, have their "loss leaders" in the flyers to get you in, and hope you buy the higher priced things along the way (I worked for a fortune 50 grocer for a while, they are very scientific about how to lighten your wallet or purse. You know those discount/club cards everyone pushes on you? They serve an additional purpose not necessarily for your advantage...lol).

I have always meant to get around to writing a cookbook from my sous-chef/cook days...I have tons of my recipes from 6 different cuisines filed away...one of these days, lol. I Have too much on my plate right now (bwaa-hahaha, I crack me up)!

WOW...are there others like you out there TS???

Ok, so W just emailed me:

"i hate the kitchen ..!!!! and it got bad again because i'm sick... and i still don't feel i cook enough ...that they eat cereal and crap way too much.... it's so hard"

So should I roll with what I wrote above? Either she's onto this forum and who I post as, or this is an opening or segue from heaven...lol.

oh yes, there are, GB...there are...and they can be made as well.

Originally Posted By: TSquared2

Ok, so W just emailed me:

"i hate the kitchen ..!!!! and it got bad again because i'm sick... and i still don't feel i cook enough ...that they eat cereal and crap way too much.... it's so hard"

So should I roll with what I wrote above? Either she's onto this forum and who I post as, or this is an opening or segue from heaven...lol.

Wait a minute... Am I understanding you correctly that W sent the above email before you ever said a word? Wow, maybe the aliens can read our minds!

Quote:

"W, you have told me several times recently that you do not like working in the kitchen, cooking or grocery shopping right now, that it is stressful to you. I have heard you.

Due to the tax and insurance changes, the family needs to stretch the food budget, like our Mom's had to do in the 70's and early 80's...I used to do menus, cooking, food buying and kitchen work for a living, and when the kids were younger. I LIKE to do these things, so FOR RIGHT NOW I need to "take over" this area until you have healed and then we can figure out what to change up. I think me taking the decisions, spending and responsibility here will help you heal by reducing your stress and giving you more "space".

This is not a judgement of your ability, just that for right now, it's something you shouldn't need to worry about while you heal. I will get the boys involved, S2 is excited to help already, and it will be something we do together, and I can teach them this stuff."

The section I bolded sounds more aggressive than necessary to me. Maybe something a bit softer along the lines of "I'd be more than happy to step up and take on more responsibility in this area". If she wants to hand it all over to you, fine. But maybe you guys can work together on this.

I'd love to work together more in the kitchen with my W. As it is now, either I make the meal on my own, or she does. (I get home from work first, so I usually prepare dinner) She doesn't seem interested in working with me.

Cooking more was one of my 180's, as W used to do all of it. My skills are improving, I try to surprise her with new dishes here and there, and she does offer thanks and positive comments. So yes ladies, cooking H's can be made!

Weird.

Well T2, if she's listening... U r one stupid woman to give this guy up!

Heather

Hi ya FY,

Quote:

Wait a minute... Am I understanding you correctly that W sent the above email before you ever said a word? Wow, maybe the aliens can read our minds!

Yes, I was sitting waiting for feedback and there it was...lol. You know, pre-MLC/BD we did have one of those R's where we were somehow "linked" like this a lot of the time.

Quote:

Maybe something a bit softer along the lines of "I'd be more than happy to step up and take on more responsibility in this area".

Normally, I agree, but she has been having a terrible time with deciding ANYthing these days, and I am guessing that the "open" to her decision part would stress her out right now. Most things stress her anyway right now, so I am not going to be able to get off scott free regardless, but I do want to minimize it...

And I don't know how long I or the bank account can wait on indecision..ugh...but lol. It is what it is...

Oh, and I HAVE been offering that way for about 4 years now...its one of her control areas per her.

From a woman's perspective, mind you, a non-alien perspective so take what you will, I wouldn't want to be told this is because I need time to heal. This would make me feel like a failure. What I would hear is "You're broken. You're a failure. Go fix yourself and I'll fix this mess. I need to take over."

I think if you approached it as "This is something I would love to do. It would mean a lot to me if you'd let me do this for the next three months (six months, whatever timeline you want to set so she knows this is temporary) and we can see how it goes." I don't know if you even need to bring up that it has to do with budget either. Again, I could see this being taken as "You spend way too much money on food and I need to take this over because you're causing us financial stress." Her sending that email and bringing up the topic herself gives you the ability to jump in and help her without having to give much justification. She has put herself out there for help and you can now give it without making her feel bad about it. "I understand this is something you hate. It would be something I would really enjoy doing and then you could have some free time for YOU to do something you love too. It would mean a lot to me if you would support me in me doing this."

Hey T^2, just catching up on your thread.

Since I'm a SAHM, cooked vegetarian for all of us for so many years (H & I both eat some meat now) I can SO relate to your W's kitchen troubles. And my H oft complained about the amount of $ we spent on food.

I felt sensitive about being criticized in this area too even if I knew I had days where I wasn't doing as well. It still really annoys me when my boys tell my H there's not enough to eat! It's such a lot of work!

About you and your W: How are you and she currently relating in other areas?

I like what the other posters have said. Maybe if you phrase it in a way that shows you are helping her with HER job, not making it YOUR job, till she gets better and maybe there could be some working together area in the kitchen.

It has been such a joy lately to me to do some cooking with my H. He really previously found any kitchen work distasteful and has totally changed his attitude. Now it's a "we" regarding food/providing. It's SO much better.

Sometimes I wish I could talk to your W. I feel we have a lot in common.

I'm looking forward to see how this area of your sitch works out

rH

That is some good stuff folks. Thanks TVS, FY, Hopper and rH!

All my "yeah, but"s don't hold water when I get the insight as to where W may be coming from and how she could interpret things...still more work for me to do there, this communicating with the other person's interpretation/perspective in mind...guess I have some books to re-review...

The hard part is that she isn't very communicative right now, so not a lot of opportunity to practice, fail and learn. With minimal risk...

This is a good lesson that when I am in "must DO/SAY something mode" to wait, re-think, etc, before doing.

I keep hearing 25yrs advice "how are you going to SHOW that the M will be different NOW than it WAS?" in my head.

So later today after seeing anymore comments I will cobble something together along the advised words here, and leave my phrasing for Plan B or Plan C.

And I do know that right now, rH, she doesn't want to work "together" too much...I frustrate myself sometimes that the manner in which I "work" has rewarded me so much in the work world, but is such a challenge on the home front...I guess too many years of "emergency fix/must do now" training/habit make it an instinct that I need to overcome and learn when apply, and when to not.

We have also learned that the awesome charter school is closing in a couple weeks, absent some financial miracle, so yet another BIG stressor (how to finish the school year, homeschool, public school, most of the charter schools have waiting lists) mixed in with the illness cycling through the house...Life can slow down and cut us some slack ANYTIME now....lol.

Thanks for your input and listening folks...

T^2

Even my horoscope today says: "Carefully consider your audience before delivering your message." ok, ok, I get it...lol.

Originally Posted By: TSquared2

Even my horoscope today says: "Carefully consider your audience before delivering your message." ok, ok, I get it...lol.

That's a great quote

T,
Listen to your horoscope! Patience and timing are the keys. Dig deeper for patience and know that this is not on your timeline!

Greetings...

Verrryyy interesting couple of days ... it is late so I am probably going to be brief and to the point, aka, terse mode... lol

Yesterday (Friday), W seemed more off than usual. Lots of talking...and I must say I did a damn good job of validating and letting her roll her stuff without judgement.

This morning, very early, she jumps into our bed (she's been sleeping apart during the kids and our illnesses) and is in "talk" and "issue" mode...we have talked 6-10 hours today, and have I gotten so many "answers".

-She wants to try to keep the family together, make this work.
-She still isn't "in love" with me. But recognizes that feelings can change, even if she doesn't think so atm.
-She apologized again for hurting me, and all the LIES. She hates that she did.
-I got a lot of info on the OMs, much more there though, to come, maybe.
-Really, so much talking, all over the place, so many topics.
-I got to talk a lot about what I have learned here, without ID-ing the source, she was very open.
-I really got tested on how "safe" I REALLY am...glad those changes were for me, because it got verryyy heavy...she kept stopping, afraid, then I showed that which I am now made of, she got a lot out, but there is so much more.
-we had s3x...much as I wish it was ML, it was just s3x, and, it was less than optimal...no kissing etc, kind of like right before BD, and now she was worried that this was a sign that "us" was done...had to do some de-bunking there. And I think I need to enforce a rH boundary, no sex until commitment, and kissing and other intimacy first...guys take note!
-the "last" OM went NC yesterday...oh, she got dumped. SOOOO, this is what started it, been here before. He beat her to the punch, if I understand W correctly...and she is not too happy about it.
-I held her hand through the Phase 1 OM ending issues in 2010, so I got this covered, for the very last time, methinks.

IDK, either this is a bottom, a turn, OR, it is HPD/BPD hoovering...open and alert for both/either possibilities.

But the eyes said it's a turn, most of the time, I observed. I saw a lot of the W I knew today and last night, fascinating how their faces change SO much, once you learn to recognize it...and she spent a lot of time "just looking" at me the past couple of weeks.

I did tell her, that I was not going to live this way forever, that I needed her to be committed to ME, our M, along with the kids.
That the OM/OP needed to stop, that transparency needed to occur.
The lies must stop.
The rest can be dealt with as needed, "from this day forward", forgiven, fresh start...or she should go. And please do go if you cannot do the above. <--- That is a change for me lately...I really can let it go now the past couple/few months, I really will be okay without W, and this was talked about a lot today.

So much I learned about her multiple OMs journey, so much more too learn, I do think I was tested, and I showed that I am safe.

This charter school closing issue seems to be giving us something together to work on, a common goal, pushing some things out.

Wow, I am so tired and overloaded, I hope this made some sense...

Thoughts, comments, advice welcome as always!

T^2

and some lyrics to spin from the Foo Fighters "These Days":

One of these days the ground
will drop out from beneath
your feet

One of these days your heart
will stop and play its final
beat

One of these days the clocks
will stop and time won't
mean a thing

One of these days their bombs
will drop and silence
everything

But it's all right
Yet it's all right
I said it's all right

Easy for you to say
Your heart has never been broken
Your pride has never been stolen

Not yet not yet

One of these days
I bet your heart'll be broken
I bet your pride'll be stolen I'll bet I'll bet I'll bet I'll bet

One of these days
One of these days

One of these days your eyes
will close and pain will
disappear

One of these days you will
forget to hope and learn to
fear

But it's all right
Yet it's all right
I said it's all right

Easy for you to say
Your heart has never been
broken
Your pride has never been
stolen

Not yet not yet

One of these days
I bet your heart'll be broken
I bet your pride'll be stolen

I'll bet I'll bet I'll bet I'll bet...

Change is afoot.

T
The tides are changing! She's waking up a bit each and every time she talks to you. You continue to validate her thoughts and feelings and she feels very safe with you.

You've stated how you feel and what needs to take place, now allow her to digest your coments. Patience! Continue as you have been. She's on her way home!

Wow T, that was some post!

I think sometimes as the LBS, we search for/want answers so much, even if its not what we want to hear. Sounds like you got a lot of info yesterday, which I think is truly a testament to wife feeling "safe" with you.

I like that you told her you weren't going to do this forever. I feel/think the same thing everyday. It's one thing to live this way temporarily as we are choosing to stand, but totally different to spend the rest of our lives this way. Not gonna happen!

After reading your post, I thought of another Foo Fighters song-

"It's times like these you learn to live again
It's times like these you give and give again
It's times like these you learn to love again
It's times like these time and time again"

I know happy times are ahead for you - keep up the awesome work T!

I'm so happy for you T, you deserve this. I'm following your sitch closely... and taking notes.

I also especially like that you told her you wouldn't be waiting around forever.

Quote:

That is a change for me lately...I really can let it go now the past couple/few months, I really will be okay without W, and this was talked about a lot today.

Surely you must have known you'd be ok without your W for years now, no?

I think we are all taking notes... I'm about on my 5th Bible sized notebook now

And yes FY, we would be okay without our S's. Part of me thinks I actually might be better off without him as the man he is right now. Now the man I married, well, that's a totally different story...

T^2,

I'm overwhelmed and excited for you with this last post!

SUCH a lot to process!

You are able to articulate what you need, sounds like, at the same time that you are able to see/evaluate her processing. It is SO exciting that she feels safe with you, as snodderly & tvs said. There is much more to come from her, and you are the man to be able to take it!

I especially like the Foo Fighters song that tvs quoted.

Interesting how the charter school closing, although apparently a negative, will give you two a common goal to work on. I find that so positive.

So happy for you, T^2. You've some so far and put so much work into yourself and your sitch. You deserve some answers and some happiness (and some ML, too

)

Keep going!!!!!

rH

Thank you folks! I am pretty swirly in the head right now...lol.

Need to get some journalling out...

This morning was A LOT more and I think, based on how W has traditionally been, this will be a wild ride, floodgates sort of thing, she has usually been pretty "all or nothing".

I am having some interesting reactions, such as I am sort of disappointed that OM ended it, rather than her (and of course this bothers W, she wanted to be the one when she was ready, and she does love being pursued, hence my choice of song lyrics)...this really has me cautious of histrionic hoovering...I don't trust this yet, and that kind of bothers me (but not too much

There were more apologies and remorse, she doesn't like that she could do these bad things.
Her word choices are showing me clarity and some new maturity, such as she doesn't want to revert to her old dynamic of me being her therapist, and other things like that. The awareness is nice.

I have this quote stuck to my desktop now from AmyC's thread (if memory serves):

Quote:

To you I'll say this: If you don't humble yourself at this time, if you let pride make you bitter and vengeful, she will never feel able to ask your forgiveness. And THAT ALONE IS PARAMOUNT to her coming out of MLC a better and stronger person.

You see, the hardest thing for her will be forgiving herself and she can never do that unless she can come back and talk with you.

Love her or not, leave her or not, you've got to make yourself a person (because you are THE person) she can come to and apologize. This is when you're going to have your feet held to fire and you'll find out if your love is really unconditional.

So all that work this last 1.5 years is now going to the test, feels like when I was a musician before a big, important gig...so I can do this....

T^2

Part of me is just amazed and I can't believe we are here.

And I really wish I would have waited on the s3x,,,(hey, SHE started it!)I still don't know if there was any PA, hence STDs to be worried about, and worried about the "rebound" effect...I wish we were farther along in the other intimacy items so that it would have been ML, not just s3x (did I just write that? And I'm a guy...lol!). Can't change the past, so moving forward.

T^2

Oh, and regarding it only being sex and not ML, I understand what you're saying. I'm just having a hard time feeling sorry for you on this!

You're doing great!

Well, maybe if we hadn't been interrupted by one of the kids, it could have been more...but that is the reality of being parents, so maybe reality is better than some "fantasy moment" right now, since she's spent enough time in fantasyland I reckon...don't want expectations to get too crazy...lol...idk.

That did crack me FY...

I hope you sitch breaks soon...it's tough, I know.

T^2

T2,
Regardless of how it ended, it ended! Take the positives that she has expressed to you and watch closely to see how real they are. How deeply she wants to change. As far as the intimacy I ask if saying no to her would do more harm than good? Your goal is not to punish her but to try and draw her in and help her out of this pattern she has followed. Sometime there is no right or wrong....

Best to you friend. And I'm with FY, you won't find too many of us feeling sorry for you at this moment .

Interesting, I wasn't looking for pity. Just was journelling what was going on in my rattled, swirly brain at the moment.

I don't think you were looking for pity at All. I'm just jealous, in a good way

One thing I have learned in all this is that what I say/do/write isn't always taken as I intended, so be humble and go back over it and see if I can improve my communication clarity...

Yup, her floodgates are open, but not in a mean way at least...everything I've read about what the mlc'er thinks and feels during their time away has been verified...

I did not know I was repulsive, or had been, not sure now, though she did feel attracted to me before the interruptions this weekend.

I know she is grieving a lot of loss, the last(?) OM, her youth, the "old marriage", etc...too much to detail, way too much.

She can't understand why she is not "happy"...has a good life, a good family, a good H, not perfect, but could be worse.

She thinks she is addicted to the "new love" feelings, though she has read and "gets" that they are temporary, which pains her, wonders if she'll ever be happy...

Oh man this is tough.

Ok, that was the emotional release after the fact...during the talk I was good, validating, calm, cool, collected.

I know in my brain that she is grieving, bouncing all over the place still with the lack of sleep and hormonal flux...

Clarity is increasing for her, be that man only a fool would leave, T2, be that man.

Hey T!

Big announcement... You already are that man!

Sounds like your W still has a battle between her heart and her head. Between fantasy and reality. Between what she wants and what she has.

Hmmm... That sounds familiar!

It seems like being "safe" is also coming at a price for you. I know it's hard to get unloaded on and hear things that are not so easy to hear.

Their minds are scary, aren't they?

You are a strong, confident and caring man that continues to be a rock for your W. Being a rock is hard work though. Real hard.

Keep up the great work of listening and validating, no doubt there is more to come from your wife.

AND... Don't forget to take care of you! I know this has to be emotionally draining for you. Add work, kids, house, life... You have a lot on your plate right now.

Rest and recharge tonight T - you deserve it.

Keep being awesome! (Which I'm sure comes quite naturally by now)

PS- she certainly didn't seem to find you repulsive recently if you know what I mean!!!! Actions speak louder than words...

T^2,

I'm glad tvs answered you in her eloquent way. She said it better than I can.

This is so painful as part of the growing/being there process. I know from what you said that there is much you didn't say.

You ARE the man no woman would want to leave. And your W hasn't left. She is staying and growing and learning and accepting and sometimes that is fun and sometimes that is painful.

She is a remarkably strong woman to stay and face this pain. She has these issues from long ago and here you are to help her through this metamorphosis.

You are talented, kind, a good provider, a great dad, lover, cook, artist, gardener, listener, funny, handsome, have good morals, (not in order of importance -- just as they came to mind -- lol!)

Hang in there and give yourself some self-soothing rituals today. You deserve it.

It's ups and downs with these MLCers. My H didn't go to MG but went out drinking last night with a half-hearted "I might come by the house. Do I hafta tell you now?" But I didn't hear from him all evening nor did I expect to. And more drinking planned for tonight. So I have my doubts as to how our special valentines day dinner will go tomorrow. H seems to be needing a lot of extra sleep lately. I hope tomorrow's plans are not a disaster like our anniversary dinner last May. I'd rather be home alone than that. So it's two steps forward and one back. Sometimes two or three back. But we keep moving forward.

More than one of my friends/family are encouraging me to throw In the towel. Or throw it AT him as MWD says! But we don't do that. We just patiently wait while taking care of ourselves since our spouse can't help us with that right now

I'll have you in my heart today. Thinking of you and wishing you strength, rest and courage!!!

Hugs,
rH

I agree w/the others...take some time out for yourself and recharge. Your wife is still bouncing around and is still working things out.

Don't sell yourself short...you are someone that has shown just how strong and patient a person can be. Dig deeper for more patience.

Hang in there!

Thank you SO much you guys, it was such a nice and empowering thing to wake-up to your responses!

As luck would have it, a virus or something is making sure I get some rest, and giving me a reason to back off on the talks with W a bit.

There has been a lot of good stuff in the talks, along with the bad/difficult, so focusing on the good and letting the bad be just info that she needed to say aloud to "free" it from her mind.

I have been doing EXTREMELY well with the OMs and cyber info, I think maybe I really did/have let THAT part of this go and forgiven...nothing has really bothered me yet. It is also good that she is seeing it was what it was...an innocent curiosity turned into a band-aid/escape and then addiction/escape..and realizes those feelings of "new love" will always fade and or fluctuate, so what is she to do?

Run from new to new until she is old and ultimately alone? While doing more damage to what she has and maybe destroying it altogether? Or accept that reality of "new love feelings" and of her addiction to them and work it out and get through it and keep what she has built with us and the kids... Listening to her I see she is doing the mental work, realizing what she has done and who it has affected and that she has run from so much and when will she stop? What if she throws all this away and STILL isn't happy? These are some of what she is sounding out with me.

I know there is more to come with the OMs and her exploring, she did respond to my concern about STDs, without saying she never went PA/hookup, but that I didn't have to worry about STDs...lol...whatever I can infer from that...the answers will come, when they are ready.

I also have to keep in mind that her SAD is always the worst in Feb/March, so that affects her and her thinking regardless of MLC...hoping for a warm sunny spring this year....

Thanks to all of you, got my boots laced back up and back to work!

T^2

I keep thinking about you and your wife with the multiple OM and all your helpful advice with my H. I do think it has made standing easier for me with H too. All the jumping around from one to the next, makes me feel like his heart is not with any of them. Maybe it's being a woman, but that would hurt me more than the PA if he had a real relationship or the facade of one. i don't know how anything that begins with this foundation could be considered a real relationship. I feel like it will be easier to forgive and get past if I'm the one still in his heart, even if buried so deep right now.

Hi Raine, aka Hopper...

I think the EA hurts more than PA as well, at least it does for me...the EA or a "real" relationship interest is where you feel them toss you out of their heart....imo.

Update/Journal Entry--

Lots of things have been discussed by her going into week #2 since OM went N/C. Something he said has been really "getting" at her: "enjoy your life" ... I don't know what all there, but she has been giving it a lot of head time. Maybe I'll know someday...lol. But she is greiving and in withdrawal, so I can empathize well.

She seems torn between working it out and the call of the "other" life, her addiction to attention from men and acting on it while she still can before she's old and unattractive. Some interesting change in vocabulary is that she is using "cheating" and "cheated" instead of less blunt terms, and she said in one discussion that I have a lot of "leverage" against her if we D because of all she has done, how the kids would view her, etc...sounds like she is looking hard at a reality, rather than an escapist fantasy, of how things could go...

Through this I have been the usual validating, calm, non-threatening and not threatened (95%+). Safe, as she is still talking...lol. Just asking clarification questions to be sure I am understanding her points, feelings and thoughts.

I am seeing a lot of parallels to rH's H vacillating, and I have had times of some anxiety, but not too bad or too many.

But lots of contact via email and phone all day, so this is new, but then we are scrambling to get kids in new schools, but there have been times of her talking about other stuff, and even revealing things such as "when I was stressed like this before I would email "someone".... ".

So still letting her lead and show that I am there, got her back, but back off when I sense she wants or needs space.

T^2

This is a tough place, isn't it T^2?

Constantly having to adjust to their edging closer and closer? Yet it is rewarding to have more contact, more closeness, more trust in us as spouses.

Thanks for posting. I was wondering how it was going for you.

Maybe things will be better in the spring, a coupla months from now? Your W must be very pretty. It seems she relies on her looks as a way to feel good about herself, or is that a carryover from a childhood abuse issue?

How did things ever work out with the kitchen/cooking issue or did I miss that somewhere?

Yes, rH, it is tough...trying to keep letting them edge closer when we would like things to move just a wee bit faster...lol.

The kitchen thing, thanks to you, Hopper, FY and TVS seems to be working around slowly, you guys' input helped me craft a nice email suggestion...I am trying to keep her involved, like I prepped up a nice stew the night before so all she had to do was turn on the crockpot in the late morning...stuff like that so it's more a team effort, just separate right now...lol...

And the boys and I are working menus and grocery lists as we transition through what's in the pantry atm, this weekend should be first "live run" ...

She has an interesting look, sorta "girl-next-door" with something unique...my friends have said she's a 7 or 8 if a scale means anything. Because she was highly influenced by the media and its "ideals", and the abuse/abandonment, she has always not liked her looks and craved attn from men for that external validation (again, that external thing, rather than internal)...and she/is was kinda a wallflower/super shy person. Since her "purpose" (the kids) is growing up and away, peri-menopause, growing older, dad dying, etc, yet another perfect storm...I am watching your sitch with great interest since H seems a bit ahead of W

New thread time...

New one is here:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2323718&#Post2323718

T^2