Ok guys, the divorce is final.
My main focus now is to keep moving forward, do my best to not keep looking back, and start to let go of these shackles of anger that I still trip on.
When I have more time, I'll post the link to my last thread...not sure if I know how to do it anyway.
I am heading off to a track meet with MIL for D12. It will be great to spend time with her. She and I are friends and are close. It will be good to have the girls spend time with her and to get out of the house.
I realize that this anger I have is something that will only go away with time and Xh keeping his distance. I feel very much like a poked or tormented bear when he backs off then intrudes, backs off then interferes.
After great advice and insight I do realize that its me that has to end this. So I've decided that if and when XH starts to interfere and intrude again, that will be the time to have an honest talk with him and ask him to kindly back off.
Honestly he has no idea how hurt I was and have been, nor he cares. Because if he did, I think he'd have left me alone a year ago. I think that's the basis of my anger. The root cause. No validation of the hurt he caused us. His actions seem to speak to me that if he acts like everything is fine, then it will be fine and nothing ever happened. This is how he's always handled everything. He just acts like it's not there and go full force in another direction never to fully deal with the issue that made him turn away and put his head in the sand in the first place.
I realize this is the way he is. I accept that. But I don't have to accept his insensitve treatment.
Good for you! I'm glad to see that you and the girls are going out today for the track meet. If you can maintain the friendship w/your MIL, by all means do so.
You are absolutely right...you do not need to accept his insensitive treatment...that is no way to treat someone, especially you. Set your boundaries and stick to them.
As for the anger, you are going through the stages of grief and it's going to take some time to work through that anger, but you will...I have faith in you!
Enjoy your day out!
Awesome. I think you are on a healthy path that will help greatly.
After great advice and insight I do realize that its me that has to end this. So I've decided that if and when XH starts to interfere and intrude again, that will be the time to have an honest talk with him and ask him to kindly back off.
May I say that a conversation isn't nearly as effective as "doing"? You may (or may not) find that reasoning with him is not possible. Having the conversation may be like having it with a three year old. You may have to do more than have the conversation and may have to enforce the boundary more assertively.
Something to be prepared for. It was that way in my case. No respect for a boundary unless I enforce it (as it should be really). I felt the same way. The thought was, "if you want to leave, then be gone." That's not how it works, but that's how it "should" have worked in my mind
The not getting an answer is tough to deal with. It really is. It's harder when they keep coming back for more interaction.
Keep moving...
AJ
I'm going to piggy back on what AJM has stated and just say "actions speak louder than words". Talking to the mlcer and requesting them to back off is like telling a child not to take a cookie out of the cookie jar. If they know that they can get attention, whether it is positive or negative, they will do it. Also, just are reminder, they may look at your request as telling them what to do...so instead, just distance yourself, do not return calls or texts right away and only address issues that are financial or child related. Do not share any of your personal business w/him. In fact, make him ask you about things. The less you say, the better off you will be and yes, it does send the message that you are moving on and will not there to prop him up.
Hello,
Just got back from a lovely afternoon with MIL and a beautiful drive to see D12. WE got there just as she was throwing her shot put. She did well I thought but came in at 12th place. Im so proud of her! I so glad my kids are turning out ok. They really are good kids.
In regards to telling Xh to back off...well I have my reasons. I've done the acting "as if" and it doesn't stop him. When he wants something, he'll persist till he gets it. When the man has a goal in mind he will NOT STOP and do anything he needs to in order to reach his goal. See we never were able to communicate properly, and it seems that he and I have always interpreted eachothers actions for things that weren't intended. I know he wants a friendship with me or he wouldn't be so damn eager when responding back over small things, which really are just kid related now. Believe me, I know how the man rolls when he doesn't want to be friends. He's the master at freezing you out! I've only lived through it for 22 years.
For starters I know Xh well enough that if Im nice and cheerful everytime he texts me, then he thinks we're friends. This is what happened during the first 3-4 months post bomb. I thought we were reconnecting. He just thought we were friends and was very sad when I told him I didn't want to be his friend.
I like to treat people as I wish to be treated, and one thing I do not like is being strung along....like he did to me. Yes AJ, that is how my train of thought is too. If you want to leave, then BE GONE. Get your things out all at once, do not contact me unless it's kid related. Do not try to act like my best friend. Because you're not.
An important need for me in any relationship is openess, honesty, and kindness. Though He has not treated me like that, I will do it for him. Given this sitch, knowing Xh the way I do, I feel I do have to look him in the eye and tell him. Acting " as if" with him doesn't work. What kind of man thinks his wife doesn't love him or want a physical relationship with him when she's wrapped around him like a stripe on a candy cane? Gee wasn't I acting " as if" I wanted him and loved him? Hello??? LOL!
I literally don't know where his mind is at times. Ever heard of disassociation Fuge? He does this and has for as long as I've known him! He even admits it!
When I get over my anger, and it stays resolved for some time, I think I then can be friends with him, if it's wanted by either of us.
Hi Kimmerz,
I just wanted to say thank you. I have been reading a lot of your posts over the last few weeks and have benefited from them.
I found out about OW this week and that my W (we are lesbians) is definitely filing for D. I have gone into such a funk and panic about it. I feel numb, I am having trouble sleeping (I keep waking up) and it is so so hard to not keep my mind from spinning about her, OW, memories, things I did wrong in the M....
I read your post yesterday where you described when you found out about the OW as a type of PTSD and that so fit what I am experiencing the past week. It made me feel not so alone with the panic and pain I am feeling.
Thank you for sharing. ((( )))
Me: 51 W: 41
DP: 8 M: 3 T: 10
"Im not happy" 7/11
W moves out 10/11
Moves back in and out in again in 7 days 11/11
W wants to go to MC and work on things: 2/12
W ends MC and working on things: 3 weeks later
W moves out of state: 4/12/12
OW confirmed: 4/23/12
OOPS.. I just figured out the signature settings.
Hi Guys,
Something changed in me over the last 2 days. Maybe it was getting out of the house and getting some fresh sea air and sunshine.
Ajm suggested to give it a little time after the divorce was final to settle into things because I didn't always have to feel angry and bitter towards my XH.
It's become clear to me that I need some help with my kids in order to get some very much needed rest and recooperation from the last year. My job has become over the top demanding, on top of the divorce, and I physically am now paying for it all. So I said to myself " Ok Kim look where you're at. You're exhausted mentally and physically. This is where you are now but you don't want to be. What do you need? You need time to yourself to rest, and take care of you. Piecing it here and there isn't working, you need bigger chunks of alone time. You can't either drive yourself nutts sending the kids to 3 family members whenever you can pull it off. Or you can actually depend on XH to step up to the plate and take what appears to be his genuine offer to help in anyway he can. Don't look at it as intrusion anymore, or control on his part. Look at it as help, because you know you need it".
With that thought being very mulled over for weeks now, I swallowed my pride and contacted XH yesterday. I asked him when his next vacation was. He offered the information right away that he didn't plan on taking any vacation until summer to take the girls camping, and that he only has 6 days vacation. So I brought to the table my idea. He and I plan our vacations at the same time, and he takes the kids a few extra days than normal so I can get some rest. But I had hoped to take some time off from work before school was out.
XH responds that the girls are welcome anytime at his place(that still sounds so weird when he says that)and that if I give him a few weeks notice he can ask for any days off or schedule changes so he can take them for me!!!! I about hit the floor. I said Thank you.
I also decided since he's feeling so generous to ask a favor. I told him if he was uncomfortable with this request I wouldn't be offended if he said no. I asked him if he'd bring home a Free gas BBQ I can get from work if I just haul it off.
He said " shouldn't be a problem"
I about fainted again.
Not sure if that means he has to check in with OW or not, or just his usual way of saying things since he always used to say that.
I have no expectations of this except he will help with the kids and bring me home a BBQ.
A year ago I had asked him to do me a favor and I got spew.
Kimmerz,
I'm glad you asked him to assist you w/the girls. They need to spend some quality time together and yes, you need a break as well.
From the posting, I get the feeling that the pressure is off of him because he got what he wanted, i.e., his freedom and divorce. If you can keep your expectations at zero, he just might step up to the plate more.
I'm glad to see that this worked out for you.
I'm very much in the figure it out mode so please forgive me if I bring things up that keep you from going forward. Here's a thought I have. Think about The Five Love Languages. Because our situations are so similar and you and I were very much a like in our marriages I wonder if your XH's primary or secondary love language is acts of service. People give in the way they like to receive. I believe my H's primary language is affirmations, but his secondary language is acts of service. He would always call me on the way home to see if I needed anything. I rarely did. In fact, I always had everything under control at home so I really didn't count on him for much. I believe that was a big problem for him looking back. So maybe your XH enjoys helping out. I guess it could also make him feel better about himself since somewhere inside he knows what he did was wrong. People who abandon need to have self images of being good people. Who knows. Just a few thoughts.
Snodderly and Golf mom,
Very good thoughts here.
I had figured his LL was acts of service and affirmations. I've now figured out that acts of service, affirmations/physical touch is mine.
What was so crazy is that the last 6 months he was home he refused to accept any LL from me what so ever. The excuse was he was so angry with me for feeling abandoned and put aside that he was afraid to get too close and be rejected again. Yes we give out what we like to receive. Im always verbally affirming people no matter what I do and Im physically affectionate with all. I also like to do acts of service.
So what my question is, if he got what he wanted, what difference does it make whether he's nice to me or not? He agreed to give me child support instead of taking me to court and fight me over it. I appreciate it, but I don't feel like I OWE him anything or need to do something nice for me because he gave me what Im legally entitled to. I gave him his divorce he wanted. During the past year he spent the majority of it flip flopping between being a completely obnoxious jackass to being Mr. Nice guy and wanting to do all these nice things for me. However a year ago when this all started, I felt a sense of him doing nice things just to save face and not look bad. He didn't really want to, he felt he had to.
Now, it appears he really wants to. I know him well enough that when he does something he feels he should but doesn't want to, he offers once and then that's it. This time he's approached me making very generous offers to help with the children, plus took it upon himself to request certain days off the last month to help watch the girls.
To me that's a significant change in him. He wouldn't even offer that sort of help when we were married.
I don't know, I have to say now that the divorce is final I feel some sense of relief too. In a way feeling that if we ever were to reconcile romantically, and it didn't work out, then screw it! WE're already divorced and all the hard work is done!
What shakes me up, and I said this before. He's speaking my LL now. That gets my attention. And I did tell him in past emails a year ago the things I wanted in our marriage and needed him to do for me. I question if he listened.
Kimmerz,
You are attempting to analyze his behavior and you can't. There is absoltuely not rhyme or reason to it. He got what he wanted...out of the marriage and now he feels that all expectations are off the table. You are not feeling the pressure of trying to figure out how to get him back and trying to work on the divorce. I have seen this happen a number of times and you, the lbs, will question why, when, where, the what ifs, etc. Stop! Your man is in crisis and you may never understand what is going through is head or why he's stepping to the plate now. Maybe he wants to look good to others or maybe he really does want to be the best father out there and be your best bud w/out the ties that bind you in marriage. Right now, no one, not even your man can answer that question. The only person that could is God and right now, he's overseeing this situation and if you sit quietly, the answers will fall into your lap.
I'm sorry if I've not provided you w/concrete thoughts on this, but I have found that the more you try to figure it out, the less likely the answers will appear. Kimmerz, turn the focus back on to you and your daughters for now. Somes the answers will come, but only when you let the situation go for a bit.
Oh Kimmerz, Snodderly is spot on with the advice above. She told me the same during the times that I've spun and it wasn't until I stopped and sat still did some answers start to come. BTW, sitting still does not mean that you quit moving forward for yourself.
Once you really let go, you'll be amazed at where you find some of the answers to your questions.
WEll maybe Im just giving Xh too much credit. Because as far as Im concerned he knows why he's acting this way. His reasons maybe as light and lofty as a plastic bag in the wind, but for right now and right here he knows.
Maybe I just work with too many women. WE consistently inform eachother, praise eachother and communicate what's going on and work towards problem solving and conflict resolution. So where Im falling short, is Im still having expectations and I want him to tell me what's going on! I mean come on guys, doesn't this look WEIRD? Is it me that's the only one that see's this as akward and just not making sense?
Im the kind of person that needs answers. I may not like the answers I get, but I need information and more direction to follow. If he's just relieved to not feel married to me and then it makes him feel freer to do nice things, then fine. But I'd like to know that. If he's so happy in his life with his OW and it was me that made him so miserable and now he's free, then I want to know that. If it's just another MLC flight of emotion, well I'd like to know that. I know he can't tell me that part, but I think If I ask him, based on his answers I can pretty much get a good idea of whats going on.
I still don't trust him and the basis of this is trying to protect myself, aka control. I get very nervous because when he's kind, I start to soften and feel loving towards him again. I let my GUARD DOWN. It is very hard to detatch when they start being this nice, especially when it started out in an intense family moment.
Kimmerz, my thoughts are not going to be popular here and since I'm new to all of this I may not know what I'm talking about, but here's what I think. Because of the long history you have with your XH you and the girls are his family. We all need to move on and create a life for ourselves, but pray to keep bitterness from your heart. Sometimes we base opinions of others on their past actions. Personally, I want people to see me for who I am today. We all grow and change. Sometimes it's a deliberate effort and sometimes we just evolve. It's hard to say why your XH is being so helpful. Truly, I want to believe it's his way of building a bridge. You've said that he has been afraid of your rejection, so by doing small things he might be testing the water. If he is someone you want in your life and you are still open to a romantic relationship in the future, then accept his acts of service. Keep his love language in mind and build your side of the bridge. If nothing else it will make co-parenting easier.
I accept that I might be the worst person to give you a reply since I'm dealing with my own grief right now, but I believe in marriage and the vows that we take - in sickness and in health, good times and bad (your XH is sick and these are bad times). That doesn't mean that you should deny what's happened. Continuing working on healing and forgiving so you can pave the way for whatever possibilities the future holds. There are so many things I said early on would be deal breakers for me (I wouldn't be in a marriage with my H again if he had sex and I wouldn't marry him again), but I've decided not to put limits on my future. If he ever wants to R I'll consider all of that at that time. I can tell from your posts that some days you're done and others you're not quite there yet. Maybe try to just let it be for now. See where each day takes you. Extend the olive branch if that's how you feel. I can imagine that your XH's willingness to be helpful to you might be rocking his relationship with OW. After all she knows how they got together and there's nothing concrete really binding them. Work on being the best that you can be for yourself. You will become a magnet to others and maybe even your XH.
Hi Golf Mom,
Thank you so much for your post. I appreciate your insights and thoughts. I really needed to hear them. Just because you have your own individual sitch with grieving does not mean you're in no position to give advice and opinions. This is what I like about posting is getting everyone's input because everyone has something valuable to say, no matter what stage they're in on this journey.
I don't want to be bitter and angry. I want to forgive. For someone that's usually so forgiving and easy going, Im seeing a side to myself that I didn't think existed. But I realize it's all based on fear.
You see me so well Golf Mom. Yes some days Im just done, and others, well im not too sure. This is how I felt when Xh left a year ago and months into the separation. This is how he felt too. He even told me in his own words that's how he felt.
I want to believe with all my heart that this is his way of trying to build that bridge. He's done a 180 in how he reacts to me, and how he reacts is positive almost every time for almost 4 months now. I think it's only natural not to trust it at first, but want more than anything to know it's truly genuine. And when it starts to look genuine, well you don't know what to do. It honestly is a leap of faith.
I took out the 5 LL tonight and started looking at them again. I want to start talking his LL, but still kinda wonder if I have them right. Obviously Acts of Service is one for him, and I think words of Affirmation. I can't do acts of service for him if he's not around. Maybe his have changed.
Im going to just work on letting the anger go and take it one day at a time. Im going to work on not being so paranoid. I never thought in a million years my faith would be so shaken.
For years our relationship has been up and down, and I've prayed and talked to God so many times. I see that God has given me what I've asked for, but it didn't turn out the way I expected it.
I think I better start making things a little more simpler on myself and just adopt the attitude that "God's got this, just chill out and go for the ride. It's ok, he won't let you down".
Because in all reality, that's the real truth.
Thank you Golf mom!
Kimmerz, try to work on your fear. I'm doing the same. Fear led to my controlling ways. In fact, my fear of abandonment (greatest fear now realized) has made this journey particularly rough. Here's something that I read. It might help you now.
Trust your boundaries
Follow your feelings
Choose your words
Be surprised
Keep things very simple right now. Pray for guidance and answers. Meditate to calm your mind. Really take care of you. Also, have you noticed how complicated things get when your head gets involved? We ruminate. Then we're angry and hurt all over again. The cycle just continues. Try to turn all of that off. What has happened is in the past. When you turn off your mind you speak from your heart. Let actions and words flow. Here's an example of what I mean. Years ago a very good friend of mine and I had a falling out. She sent a letter essentially saying I'm moving on - have a good life. I was hurt, felt misunderstood and abandoned. Whenever I saw her I had my guard up. She was the one who ended our friendship rather than talk and make amends. Several years later we were at a kid party. We were having a cordial conversation and out of no where I said "It's good to see you. I've missed you." She burst into tears and said she always regretted sending the letter, but didn't know how to undo it. I didn't plan what I said and my head was no way involved. My heart just opened and I spoke. It was a very strange experience. We rekindled our friendship and she is one of the most precious people in my life today. How many times have you planned a conversation that you were anticipating? Sometimes it's necessary like when you're going to share information and you don't want to forget something. Trying being spontaneous. If you trust your boundries it's easier to do.
Remember all that you've learned about MLC. It's a long journey and lots of destruction is left in the wake of the WS. You'll know when you're ready to close the door completely. Still having hope and building a bridge doesn't mean you're not moving on. You truly are. Moving on, to me, means growth. Keep learning about yourself and what your needs are. Get to the crux of your fear so that you will ask for what you want and you will enforce your boundries in all of your relationships.
I don't know about you, but after many years of being a SAHM I neglected myself as a woman. Sure I kept myself fit and polished, but I didn't really pamper myself. Jeans replaced dresses. I stopped wearing perfume and buying pretty things. I rarely took long baths, etc. There always seemed like so much to do. I put my family's needs first, always. How ridiculous is that? Being more into myself has been a great remedy for controlling habits. There simply isn't enough time in a day to get after the kids about this and that if I want to have a little time to devote to myself. That attitude has really helped my self esteem also. Those things might not be important to you, but think about the things that are. Tap into the many facets of you. We're more than just moms.
Gee Golf Mom thanks,
Guess what? My biggest fear has been abandonment. When my mom died 6 years ago, part of me felt like it died too. She and I were very close and the best of friends. I then turned to XH in ways to fill that void. Later I realized he could never fill that void because he wasn't my mom. Xh left the marriage years before he left the marriage. So in a sense I've been alone for a very long time.
In regards to abandonment, well I survived. Im not completely alone, but pretty much alone. I know I must take better care of myself because right now Im just a shell of a woman I used to be. I know how to take care of everyone else, but me. I know this, and this is the main reason I decided that I needed to lean on XH to have more time with the girls, so i could focus on me some more. As I stood back and realized it was their father out of all people that was willing do stretch and do some footwork to help me out, that I figured I should pay attention to that. I don't know what it means, but I should pay attention.Fear talks there too. My kids really are the only thing I feel I have left of my very own. I don't want to share with him anymore than necessary. What if he took them away too? Guess XH leaving was the sucker punch that really knocked me to my knees. Then eventually flat on my face...lol.
Another thing that dawned on me that I have NOT given alot of thought too was that my XH was a severe gaming addict for years. I now can look back and see that he was a functional addict, but an addict all the same. When he became engrossed in that WoW game, the girls and I lost him. The game was his priority and anyone that challenged him on that got typical addict responses. " I don't have a problem you have the problem."
When he left in his depressed slump he said " the game doesn't even make me happy anymore".With addicts I do know that the high eventually goes away, and that's a crossroads. OW is a gaming addict as well and from what I understand was what broke up her 26 year marriage.
Kimmerz, we have another similiarity. My husband is a poker player. He has been since before we met. At times it has seemed excessive, but mostly it has seemed like a controlled passion. Since he hasn't taken money from our bank accounts to play and he keeps his "earnings" separate I have never had any way of knowing what the real situation is and I've been on tilt for years because of it. Periodically, I would ask my H about whether he felt in control or if he had an addiction. Well, you can probably guess the answer. Of course, he was always annoyed with me when I inquired. He never saw it as genuine concern, just intrusion. I admit, at times "his" money has paid for extras and I've appreciated that. But was I enabling? I don't know what to think about it all and whether it has played a part in his leaving. It has always been his dream to win a big tournament. He's won quite a few, but not the level that he wanted. In the meantime, he has friends/acquaintances that have won big and I think it really bothers him since he thinks he's every bit as skilled as they are. I can't say since I have absolutely no knowledge about the game and haven't wanted to learn. Also, because I don't share his passion I wonder if he is looking for someone else who will or, at least, someone (gold digger) who will be impressed with him. I just haven't considered all of this as part of MLC, but I need to. The need to win big, coupled with his family history and underlying depression might be what brought all of this on. In the meantime, I'm trying not to think about all of the things I wish I had done differently. Anyone out there with knowledge in this area, or addictions in general, please chime in.
Golf Mom,
You know Just before my last post I decided I wanted to research addictions. Guess what? XH played poker too! Xh has the addict trait/gene. The women on his maternal side are all addicts, and the males are irresponsible with money. I've seen my Xh go through drinking binges and partying alot. I read up a little bit in regards to online gaming and the particular game he played. The excuse is just what XH told me his reason for gaming was. He didn't have to deal with reality, he could just check out.
Im sorry G Mom for my memory loss, but is your H a big conflict avoider?
I just wanted to post a cycle I've now noticed.
Everytime XH is nice, and does random acts of kindess, I completely turn to puddy and my mind becomes VERY foggy, and I CANT see the truth. This is where I start to spin, analyze, feel crazy, get depressed and don't know what on earth is going on. I simply can NOT understand how he can flip flop so much. I make it my quest to figure this out....hind sight being 20/20... now LMAO.
Then..... as time goes on and there is less and less contact, the fog clears more and more. As the fog clears I start to see very important things that I had forgotten about or literally couldn't see because of the fog.
I am then brought back to reality. I can really see things for what they are. The things that aren't good, that were very hurtful from him, and the reality of why he does it.
So I pray that another fog bank doesn't come in. I guess Im finally getting hip to the cycle and will know better what to look for and when I need to step back even further and detatch more.
Kimmerz, I wonder if your XH responds the same way. If he sees your changes, but doesn't trust them. Does it cause him to start spinning again? Keep up the changes and growth so you can be who you want to be. When the changes are consistent he will be able to trust them. The same goes for him. If he's nice some days, but is a monster others then you know he's not trust worthy. Honestly, once you set and trust your own boundries I think this will become a whole lot easier. I'm telling myself the same thing. For now, try to look forward to each day with anticipation. What great things will happen? Look for signs of synchronicity. Who will you meet (male and female)? Detaching will allow you to do this, as I've discovered.
Kimmerz, to answer an earlier post, yes my H is a conflict avoider. He's also emotionally unavailable. I addition, he is somewhat of a loner. At least he says he's perfectly happy alone, with no commitments. Personally, I think he's fooling himself. We are made to have deep connections. My H hides his feelings, but over the years he has opened up to me and cried when he couldn't keep it in. He knows he can trust me with his heart and that he can safely express himself with me. Right now he has convinced himself that he doesn't need that connection, at least with me. I understand many if not most MLCers try to forget the past and people in it. They want to start clean with someone who doesn't know the real person they are. Eventually, some come back seeking the comfort and connection. I guess this is where being the "lighthouse" comes in.
Geez Golf mom, I can't believe how similar things are with us.
Im asking myself some hard questions lately.
Why would I want to be with someone that doesn't want to be with me now?
Why do I want to be with someone that's a conflict avoider?
Why do I want to be with someone that's emotionally unavailable?
This is part of the fog clearing for me. One thing that I've found very interesting is that it appers a good majority of the MLCers tend to have the conflict avoidant/emotionally unavailable personality.
About him seeing changes in me, I don't feel like he even sees me. That im invisible. Though I come here and vent and go off like a firecracker at times, I feel that I've been pretty consistent in amicable behavior towards him.
Why would I want to be with someone that doesn't want to be with me now?
Why do I want to be with someone that's a conflict avoider?
Why do I want to be with someone that's emotionally unavailable?
This is part of the fog clearing for me. One thing that I've found very interesting is that it appers a good majority of the MLCers tend to have the conflict avoidant/emotionally unavailable personality.
Kimmerz,
I have read that true conflict avoiders, true emotionally unavailable people, are more inclined to experience MLC because they can't deal with the emotional upheaval that comes with transition and change. They want things, themselves, to stay the same. It's about control. If they let us in, they lose the control.
I've been asking myself the same questions since the initial shock of BD passed. I know the answers intellectually, but then there's the emotional side of it. I wonder if it's because love is a choice, and I've chosen to love my H, warts and all, unconditionally, regardless of whether he loves me back. And we of course crave being with people we love.
But lately I've thought there's two parts to it, which has helped me to find some peace. One part is the unconditional love I have for H. The other is the conditions upon which he and I can be together, the way I must be treated, the pragmatics of it all. I absolutely would not be in the marriage I had before where emotionally, intimately, I was ignored and kept at bay.
Those conditions include honesty, openness, trust and showing up in our marriage. Men, people, as you describe your H, are not incapable but are unwilling to do this. They are ruled by fear. I continue to love my H, but have realized that until he shows that he's willing to meet those conditions I don't want to be with him. Every *relationship* he has is doomed to failure because there's no true relating in it.
And then there's the question, "what is marriage?" For me, it's the person you're with and the life you build together. When you love the person, and when you built a good life, and when, in your case, you produced beautiful children, of course you'd want that and would put up with a lot to keep it.
As an emotionally unavailable conflict avoider who has chosen to run out on a marriage, such as your H and Golf Mom's, they've got a long road to travel. Their issues are beyond the *run of the mill* MLC. It's not simply a transition or self-identity thing. I suspect your and Golf Mom's Hs are also runners, like my H. I now know that he always has been, but didn't see it before because, in his words, he hid from me....in major ways as it turns out. "It's in the past, it doesn't matter" was his favourite response. Run much?
My therapist said to me that perhaps I'd gotten too close to H and he was fearful about what I'd find out. That fits well with his saying he hid from me and that he's scared to "grow a set" and deal with his issues. I wonder if something happened to him as a child, or if his "ineffectual" father and dominant mother never taught him how to relate intimately.
But I digress.
The questions you're asking yourself, I think, will help in building a soft place to land as you begin to see all the holes in the core of your relationship that come from being with someone who is present physically but never emotionally, who has a profound fear of true intimacy.
It's a tough road for us too. You're strong. And you're wise. So often people look outwards for answers, but the fact that you're looking inwards so you can understand YOUR motivations will find you in a much better place at the end of the day.
Kimmerz, keep being you no matter what. Believe in your changes and know that they are now a permanent part of you. Your XH doesn't see you because he can't see past himself and his own needs. I truly believe in seeing people for who they are today. It makes it's so much easier to move on from the past and deal with others in the present. You deserve to be seen and accepted for who you are right now, faults and all. One thing that frustrates me to no end is my H constantly telling me that he doesn't believe people can change. In his mind, that's why he doesn't want to come home because eventually it will be more of the same. This is how little belief he has in himself and how little motivation he has to deal with his own faults. I guess, for the moment, he'll just continue believing all of the negative things about people including himself. You are asking yourself good questions. Believe me, I'm asking myself the same ones. I wonder what's broken in me that keeps me hanging on. Is it belief in my marriage vows or am I afraid of being alone? I won't know the answer until I move through my grief. Life with my H, at times, was not easy. I wanted more attention then I got, which left me feeling needy. He is secretive which had me concerned about money. He was somewhat antisocial (opposite of me) and at times that was embarrassing. However, when we spent time together and were connected I enjoyed being with him and felt very good about my M. It's all very confusing. My attorney is certain that he'll get tired of his fantasy life and realize what he had, albeit it might be too late. She sees it happen all the time. As for you, just keep moving toward a place of contentment. It will then be your choice whether you want you XH back in your life. You wil no longer except what he gave you before. You'll want more from a relationship with him or someone else. As for venting, keep coming here and doing it. I'm sorry that my response flip flopped between your situation and mine.
Hi there Golf mOm and GWn,
Thank you so much for these responses. I've read them twice and it's just so reassuring to hear your words.
Interesting things have happened with XH. He now is telling me about his physical ailments for the first time in a year. Past experience is he's stressing over something. Migraine headaches and bad back spasms always seemed to show up out of no where when he seemed in an extra depressed or sour mood for prolonged period of time. Can't tell you how many times I've worked on his back trying to get the knotts out. His headaches...well result of the gun blast.
My neighbor said she saw XH and OW shopping last week. She said XH appeared frustrated and and unhappy and was storming out of the store. OW didn't look happy either. Neighbor said she sees OW from time to time and she's just not a happy person by nature. I think she's aquaintences with OW. Im not close friends with the neighbor, so I find her obesrvation neutral, which I appreciate.
XH offered to bring home a BBq for me last week but backed out last night because his back hurt and has requested the girls ride the bus in the mornings if he's in a lot of pain.
I question...Did OW put a stop to him helping out? Or is this an excuse? Back problems are extremely valid with him.
I feel observant, but not obsessed with analyzing at this point.
Kimmerz,
No one really knows for sure what is going on w/your xh, but I would venture to say that his back is giving him a fit. It's a valid excuse and I don't think the ow had anything to do w/this request.
His sharing of his health issues is interesting. He may be sharing the info to get your sympathy or he is finally opening up and telling you about it. It's also a telling sign of his depression, as you noted...sounds to me like his little piece of heaven isn't so heavenly.
As for your neighbor, I think you already know this, but be careful. If she's bringing you information, you can bet that she's also carrying whatever you say back to anyone who will listen.
Sit quietly and additional information will fall into your lap.
idk Kimmerz, I'll go with snodderly...sit quietly...interesting how they come to us when they start to open, isn't it? I thought we were chopped liver...
LOL.... Isn't it T? Thank you Master Snodderly for your keen insights. I will keep them in mind.
I really am appreciating my gift of time and space now.
One thing I noticed that I find odd. Over the last year XH would bring up his health issues with me, as he has recently. In the past, the complaints of back pain, headaches, gout, neck, nasal congestion, etc. I did find it would come when it appeared he needed attention...this is while we were still married and living together.
NOW... he will bring these things up. He will say what he has to say and when I comment back he literally drops the convo like a hot potato. Example: XH: I slept in with a migraine this morning.
Kimmerz: Im sorry to hear you're still having migraines.
Dead silence for days. Then last night: XH"Might have to find someone else to move it for you (BBQ) if youre in a hurry. I wont be doing any lifting for a week or more my back is a major mess right now, need the kids to ride the bus in the morning".
Kimmerz"Holy crap what happened?"
XH: No clue just lifting at work I think.
Kimmerz; Ok I wil tell the kids. BTW I ditched the BBq when I saw what a piece is was. getting another one from a friend at work".
Dead Silence again from him.
So if he was wanting attention....why would he want it from me of all people?
What I find entertaining now is that when he left he said he physically felt much better. Said he was sleeping well and his back quit hurting. Of course he turned right around and told me he was drinking mixed drinks along with sleeping pills just so he could get to sleep. Then he'd slip and say his feet hurt.
I don't think he worked today and he will have the girls tomorrow night and the next night.
I dont know what's happened to me, but I feel I've let alot of this anger and resentment go. I feel like I finally did get my answer, which was WHY did this not work out for he and I.
Now, I know why. My second question has been, could it ever work out for him and I? I know the answer to that too. Only if a miraculous event came to pass and he were to achieve the ability to be emotionally available, physically available, and assertive.
Will that ever happen? Lol.....I do believe in miracles, but I am not holding my breath on that one.
Kimmerz,
Your man/child wants some attention from "mom". The attention can be good or bad, but he's hoping that if he tells you about his health you will give him a good dose of attention and sympathy! The dead silence is because you are not showing as much interest as he had hoped. You aren't cooing all over him and asking a hundred questions about his health. Keep in mind...he's in the "me" game and that's what he wants...attention.
Their health goes down the booby hatch once their crisis is in full swing. They are attempting to burn the candle at both ends and let's face it, our bodies can't do the things that they use to do when we were 12 or 13. I think he's finding it out and that's why he's having a difficult time now w/his health and let's not forget, depression plays a major role in all of this too.
I will be surprised if he has the girls over if he's not in good health, but who knows...tomorrow he might be skipping rope!
You are beginning to truly understand that it's not you, but him and only he can fix himself. BTW, miracles happen every day and don't be surprised if something wonderful comes your way when you least expect it. It may not be reconcilation, but it could be something else that will help you in the future. One never knows what the man upstairs has in mind for us.
Note: XH would bring up physical complaints in two different ways. Angry and irritated ( usually was during a depressive spell) and any concern from me was met with silence or being aloof. Innocent and child like. When I would focus on that he appeared to like the attention and then his mood would lift.
Either way I feel it's narcissist behavior. I mean look at it. He's bitching about his pain yet in his mind it's my fault he's got pain because he's so unhappy and depressed. Yet he can't deny the attention I give him though he resents having to take it from me. Or there is just him craving attention and doing it in a way where he knows I will notice it.
Ok now a rant is coming.....
Has this man had any empathy for my aches and pains over the last few years? Has he ever offered to rub my back or feet? NO! He hid the freaking Advil all to himself for his aches and pains. I had to ask for it or buy my own.
Do you see why I get very suspcious when he does random acts of kindess?
One thing he did spend alot of time doing is actually separating himself apart from me and the girls. He had his televesion, his computer, his gaming system, and stereo system all to himself at his desk. He started doing his own laundry and cooking his own food. He started acting arrogant, and he was above us. He would buy new dishes and decide they were his and his only. If we used them and they were dirty I got stoney silence. He has his very own refrigerator with his soda, snacks, candy, beer, etc. He has stashes of so much candy that he literally could survive nuclear winter. Overtime he didnt share anything with us, and if he did he resented it...including his paycheck.
Ok ya....I think Im done with that. I don't see how it's humanly possible for someone to be so self absorbed that they be able to achieve emotionally connecting with anyone.
Gosh, kimmerz, I'm wondering the same things you are about your XH's behavior. If you think about all of the information you've read here and elsewhere you will probably see that your XH is following a predictable pattern. You know how toddlers need to touch "home base" and then they run off again? Well, I wonder if that's what your XH is doing. It fits with MLC, but also with adults who missed an important developmental stage. Since it seems that MLCers have unresolved childhood issues and traumas it's logical that they would also not have safely passed through early life stages and maybe even suffer from arrested development. If you're interested it might be worth researching. I agree with earlier posts that your XH wants attention from mom. Play it cool, listen and talk softly when you must respond. Think of how you wanted your parents to respond to you when you were a kid/teenager and had a problem. When parents helped us feel safe we opened up more. When things fell apart home was the best place to be. However, if our parents were critical or rejected us we retreated and found others to confide in, or at least I did. Think of times when you just needed a parent to listen to you and it helped you feel better. Then you were able to carry on with your life. We all know that the WS acts like a teenager, so does this at all seem to fit what your XH is doing? Please don't spend any energy on all of this unless it interests you. Anyway, you can create a safe haven for your XH if you want to. In the meantime, keep learning and healing. It seems to be giving you the peace you haven't had for many years. On that note, a couple of books that I've started reading might appeal to you also. They are Men are like waffles woman are like spaghetti, Boundries: When to say yes, how to say no and Zen and the art of falling in love. I'm finding these good for dealing with my H now and helping with healing, but I will also use the information in the future. You can get the gist of them by downloading a free sample.
On another note, here's another similarity that we have. My H complained about his back and arthritis in his ankles. He also wasn't sleeping well. Once he left he told my son that he felt great. He had no more pain. I'll be curious if I ever hear about the problems returning once he is no longer able to self medicate.
Very interesting Golf Mom, I think I will look into that. The books you mentioned sound really good, and Im always up for a good book.
XH and his mom never were really "close". I've seen him alienate her on and off and have times where they were extra friendly, but I never sensed a true mother/son bond. His mother has some serious issues and is an alcoholic. Infact she's been emotionally unavailable to him all his life up until she's gotten older and making some small changes in her thinking. The fact she finally admits she's an alocoholic and knows her drinking triggers is a good step. Took her 60 years but she did it.
My mother and I were unsually close. I always felt welcome to talk to her about anything except her alcoholism. That was disaster immediately. However when XH and were together in the early years, he liked staying at my house. Infact when he got really sick with a virus he didn't want to go home to his house, he stayed with us. And he was the worst patient imaginable! LOL....I now look back at that with laughter and humor. But I remember my mom saying " well doesn't he want to go home. Doesn't his mom want to help take care of him?" and I said " I don't think so Mom, I think he wants to be here.She's off working all the time and not home". At that time XH was 20 years old.
Ok....well the psychology of it all is clicking into place quickly. My mother and myself were mother figures to him. No wonder this abandonment issue with him is so intense and he's so full of resentment towards me. I think he's got Mom and Wife mixed up. Infact I asked him that 2 years ago, that I wondered if he had me and his mother mixed up. He actually thought about it for a bit, but only said " I'll have to think about that?"
This is me being completely honest here. I truly enjoy helping others help themselves. I love to encourage where and when it's needed and point out the great potential in people that they never see. I just can't help it. I see so much good in people and I feel good in pointing it out to them because maybe they can't see it. Now I don't mean this in a controlling way. It's just if I see people putting themselves down, or excessively critical of themselves or even others, I like to point out the good.
So I guess that's where I've gone completely nutts with XH. Going nutts in the sense is that when I talk positively to anyone else but him, I seem to help people feel a little better. Him? Well he sure doesn't act like anything I say helps, yet he consistently mines for some sort of attention and recognition. This is crazy making!
REalistially, this man has so much potential. Of course I let go of the idea he'd ever notice it in himself as he consistently chose not to strive to do better for himself. He always has an excuse. I remember he said to me " Wow you have alot of faith in me, I don't even think I could do that". I said to him " I've always had faith in you. I just don't think you have very much faith in yourself".
I have no idea how to create a safe haven for him, and quite frankly, do I want to?
Well yes I want to, but only if I get something in return, which would be emotional availability. Honestly Im damn near emotionally bankrupty myself by making the choice to do all the emotional work in the marriage with hardly any feedback or cooperation from him, and then the grief of this last year.
hahaha Kimmer! Those conversations with your X sound like my W...
She still does that... been doing it more recently again, but had been doing that for the past 6 months or so...
Emails about something "important" like the kids schedule and adding bits of personal stuff, complaints, whatever... candid convo... I'd respond to the candid stuff and then there'd be dead silence... so I've just learned to only comment on the "important" stuff and find the convo lasts longer...
Kimmerz, like your XH, my H grew up in total dysfunction. He was born to a teenage mom and was passed around to different relatives before his mom married. He always felt that he was treated differently than his sister who was the bio child of his mom and stepdad. As a teenager he found out the truth in a very ugly way. His mom leaned on him as a parent. I don't think my H was ever nurtured and cherished until we were together. Because of all of his issues he slowly killed what I felt for him. Of course, I still love him, but I became less tolerant of this behavior. When he left he said "You are wonderful to everyone but me." He walked away dejected. He hasn't yet made the connection to his own behavior. More on that later. I need to get to work.
Kaffe,
that is just so weird how they do that. I've made small attempts to have small chit chat with him to see how it goes.
Guess what pattern I've found? If he's at work in the office the last few hours of his shift, I get pretty open responses. Or in other words when OW is not around.
If he's at home, where OW is 24/7, I get spurts. The spurts of texting has been the norm ever since OW was in the picture. When he's away from her he seems to talk to me alot. When she's not then it's quick and business like.
You know what I've found odd? Lately when I've mentioned to his family about XH being involved with the kids and indicating he and I have been communicating, the family appears to feel VERY akward. They just look at me like deer in the headlights or something. I would think that after us being divorced and separated for 1 year and sharing 2 kids together they KNOW we have to talk at some point. Is this normal for family to do after a year?
What I question is if XH has said things to indicate that we're still where we were back at Christmas and he still hates me? Because people literally look shocked and stunned when I tell them he and I are getting along better and tell them about all the good actions he's taken. Maybe they just don't feel right in talking about it now, which is understandable.
I definitely can agree that when they are with either the OP or their supporters / enablers, convo can be very short and abrupt... IF they even respond... and yes, if they are by themselves, they seem to get chatty...
Although, I have noticed that my W seems to stop the convo when it is something personal. She shares, I respond in a positive manner, and then she goes silent... but that is generally in electronic comm... I don't have enough experience to know it is a pattern in f2f...
As far as family goes... IDK... I have no comm with any of her family that isn't otherwise random and very infrequent contact shopping or social events. The convo is the standard "hi, how are you. Fine, you? Great, thanks. Gotta go, c u l8r..." stuff... I'm waaaay too careful to initiate any convo that revolves around W... If I were to guess though, I'd probably expect the same. That her family would be shocked to know that I am in any way involved with the kids or sometimes having decent, pleasant convo with W.
I really do believe that my name does not come up in convo in their circles. If I do (and I've seen them do this with other people who offended the family) there will be some chuckles had by all regarding some past, perceived offense and some derogetory comments made about my heritage or exaggeration about my idiosyncrasies.
They have to keep up that picture of us, because they can't have others, or even consider themselves, that they left someone who actually wasn't diablo incarnate...
All I can do is my best to present the best possible me... ALL THE TIME... in the event that I either meet up with them or meet up with family friends...
My Aunt... well, she's a nutbag... but she has a good heart... when her H and her split, he was the evil one who took up with a mistress, etc, etc, etc... the family, especially aunt and her daughter, spoke horribly about him for years and years... in the end, he made a poor choice (mistress) but whether he is a bad guy or not, who knows... so after about 10 or 15 years, the two of them finally became friendly (she let go of her anger and bitterness at him... and men in general... to some degree) and he comes to many family events and we all talk to him as a friend...
oh, I did want to say that I have recently had that "group setting" where I was at an event where a large number of her family and supporters were there. I presented the AWESOME that is me and my W did bounce many times to me to have quick chats... a couple of times were specifically interrupting me when I was chatting with a) someone of the opposite sex, and b) a candid convo with one of her supporters...
She'd come in, get chatty... then she'd seem to go vacant and slip away... back to her group...
In the mean time, of the dozen or so that were at the event, I had good pleasantries with them and carried on. The only one who is outwardly still unreceptive is FIL... that's another long story though, that involves his history and fairly recent D with W's mom.
Kimmerz,
The mlcer will only share if and when they are ready. They will only share what they want you to know. If your chit chat is getting into an area that they do not want you to know about, silence will be your answer. You are not dealing w/people who have a full deck, so you have to learn to listen very closely and sift through the garbage they are spouting in order to get your answers. It takes some time, but you will learn this technique and it's quite interesting how they are. Once you learn to stay in the "safe" areas of conversations, their lips become loose and the subjects will need to be sifted.
Once you learn to stay in the "safe" areas of conversations, their lips become loose and the subjects will need to be sifted.
THAT ^^^^^^^ is gold!
Sure, I poke the bear sometimes, but I generally KNOW I'm doing it...
As Snod says, they let us know what they WANT us to know. Sometimes, they slip... Mostly, I've learned to just let those slips go by. File them for later processing and reference. But otherwise I zip my own lips, deal with what I know is "important" and let her just chatter away as she needs...
I'm "being there for her" even though she doesn't realize it...
Feral cat, anyone...?
I don't any of us expected to have to become cultural anthropologists when we got married....
LOl....no kidding T!
You know guys I was reading on womens divorce support site and there was an article on how to treat your ex spouse. It said that the divorced couples still tend to be emotionally entangled or intertwined with one another, and firm boundaries must be in place in order for it to stop.
I think he and I are both still emotionally intertwined a bit. I tend to go backwards with my recollections. A month ago I was going through the spare bathroom and discovered some massage lotion that I had been missing for a very long time. I needed it to help smooth the kinks out of his back. It was kept in the bedroom...yet why did become missing and in the spare bathroom? Knowing he's been putting matters into " his own hands" for some time I just assumed that's what it was.
But I just couldn't resist poking the bear on that one, so I text him and asked him if he put it there. I didn't expect a response, didn't care if I got one just wanted to let him know he didn't cover his tracks very well. What did he do? Give me a lengthy explanation as to that he didn't remember putting it there and then a detailed explanation of what was in the bathroom in the first place.
So...that was just WEIRD.
I really am beginning to think Im ready to shut the door on him completely. Im not seeing any progress and keeping this silly weird attatched/unattatched chit chat with him is just futile.
If I continue to keep this up it only frustrates me, and also gives him the idea that cake eating is ok as far as I can see it. I believe in being civil for the kids sake, but friends is just riduculous. We don't have to hate eachother but we don't need to have anything to do with eachother either. His mom used to go between the same guys on and off, dump one, be friends with the other, be friends with the one she just dumped and find another.... I just don't get it. Guess Im just not that open minded.
My point being is his mother's many boyfriends and keeping up friendships with all her past relationships has given him the idea that this is normal and that this is how it should be. And maybe for alot of people it is, but not for me. Too much emotion involved.
mmmhhmmmm, totally with you on that, Kimmer...
I don't have a problem being "friendly" with my W in the future, although how that looks in the future appears different to the both of us.
I will choose how to be "friendly" (that works for me) and... who knows... maybe some day in the future, we actually might be "friends"...
Kimmerz,
In other words your xh did put the lotion in that bedroom and usually when they offer up TMI, they are covering their tracks and in many ways this is called gaslighting.
You will not see any progress w/his growth for a very long time. His growth will be from within and unfortunately, we don't see it for a while. He's still a teenager and it's going to take him a very long time because of his childhood issues.
You can be civil w/him, but you do need to go dark and only communicate w/him w/respect to financial information and your children. You need to stop initiating contact w/him over trivial matters because you are sending the signal of pursuit. He thinks/knows that you are still there on the sidelines for him. In order to send the correct message, you need to go dark and only contact him when absolutely necessary. If he contacts you via email, do not respond right away. If he calls and you have Caller ID, let it go to voice mail and return the call later. If you happen to pick up the phone, listen to what he has on his mind, cut the conversation short and tell him you are in the middle of something or getting ready to go out....He needs to see/sense that you are moving on and are not sitting there pining for him. Always remember, friends do not do what he's done you, as a friend. I'm sure that if you had done to him what he's done to you, he wouldn't want anything to do w/you and he would have made it very difficult for you during the entire divorce process. So, keep this in the back of your mind....he would most likely only tolerate your presence because of your children.
It's time to turn and keep the focus on you and your children. Leave him in God's hands.
Hey Snodderly,
As always I really like to hear your input and insights into all of this.
I agree, time to go dark.
We only talk by text. He never calls me or emails me, because HE PREFERS TEXT.
I want to read up on the pursuit and distance scenario. I guess I figured at first if there was any chance of he and I reconnecting, then it was good to be in contact or make a small effort to initiate it. I do know he is the type that if you don't show interest in him, then he's got no interest in you.
However my feelings have changed quite a bit now that I really am starting to see him for what he really is. I guess I figured if he really did change, how would I know if he didn't feel safe to even try and make contact.
LOL....sheesh this MLC/ LBS/ GAL thingy is complicated isn't it? LOL.....
XH just text me that he called his corportate office and that they have not received the paper work for wage garnishment, hence me not getting any child support so far.
I asked him if he got any paper work in the mail and his response" I believe so I will dig through the pile and find it again".
I then asked him if he had the corporate offices address avaialbe because I had the DA on the phone right then ( and I did!) and I got the address right quick.
Obeservation: How does someone go from completely greed and selfishiness of money, to offereing me the entire tax refund, paying up child support of his own accord without any bitching about it, and cooperative with me in getting this done? This man NEVER COOPERATED WITH ME ABOUT ANYTHING, I had to do it all!
Gas lighting? Or my attorney and his attorney scaring the daylights out of him? His true persona brought out to light? Him knowing I will not tolerate this?
This man NEVER COOPERATED WITH ME ABOUT ANYTHING, I had to do it all!
Gas lighting? Or my attorney and his attorney scaring the daylights out of him? His true persona brought out to light? Him knowing I will not tolerate this?
Maybe he senses momma is mad...? I see this with our boys, they will do whatever, until they sense Momma has had enough (or calls Dad...
. Then they act right (sorta, mostly, try to...)
T^2
Hmmm, LOL....well yes he knows Im mad alright, but it never mattered if I was mad, hurt, betrayed and devastated when he was in the first honeymoon throws of OW living together last fall and into last winter. Ohhhhh I was the bad guy alright....oh the blame and accusations are comical now that I look back at it.
I had read that the super self absorbed ( narcissist) are very much like small children, acting out in anyway to get attention, even if it's negative attention. They crave boundaries, though they will fight you TOOTH AND NAIL when you first establish them. Over time it can draw them too you. You can be kind but firm and let them know you made your choices to stand firm because you didn't see any other way to do it.
Well all I can say is that this next year will be very interesting.
My Question is: Why would he even care if I was mad at him at this point? I don't care if he's mad at me. There's absolutely nothing he can do to me now if he gets angry with me. Nothing. He can't with hold money. His wages will be garnished. If he chooses to make the kids the messenger then he chooses to do it. Eventually that will cause him more trouble in the end because I won't tolerate that either, and don't even have to speak to him to deal with it. The girls know not to make any plans with Dad outside of their scheduled visits without speaking to me first. And they're very good about that, believe me he's tried.
Well once again Im just baffled as to why he's acting this way, he is NOW starting to act OPPOSITE of what he was a year ago and years before then. It has my attention but I will play it cool.
idk, Kimmerz, idk...
But isn't this flipping and flopping all over the place par? All we can do is play it cool and see what happens, if anything...
Hang tough!
T^2
Believe it or not, mlcers can't stand for people to be angry w/them. He considers you a friend and doesn't want you angry because he's not sure if you will tell others about the situation. Keep in mind, they want to come off looking like peaches and cream here and not wacky poo.
I bet he received the information it the mail and is feeling guilty for setting it aside. Bottom line, "mom" may have reminded him that he didn't complete the necessary information that was required. They tend to put things aside and not get to the right away...feeling guilty for you catching him w/his forgetfulness? Most likely.
I'd roll w/the situation and see how it plays out now.
I don't know, kimmerz. As I've said before, I'm a big believer in seeing people for who they are today. That might be incredibly naive when dealing with a MLCer. I'm questioning my H's motives right now, also, since on the surface they seem to be in my best interest. However, I don't want to be jaded and always assume the worst about him and I would caution you about the same. I did read that abandoners need to believe they are good people so they will do things to convince themselves of this and ignore their destruction. I guess there is no real way to know other than asking. BTW - one of the "agreements" in the book that I told you about is "Don't make assumptions. Have the courage to ask questions." People often assume the worst. In my situation, I don't have the courage right now, partly because I really need distance and don't want to communicate, but partly because I'm hoping that the good deed is part of a possible reconiliation. I know that's so remote, but I just can't handle anymore of the truth (loose word) right now. Are you possibly considering your XH's actions because you still have hope? I guess there must be external and internal pressure to move on once a D is final. Maybe at this point you're more fascinated then hopeful. Either way, try to keep your heart open and receive his gift of cooperation. Oh, how I wish I could follow my own advice!
Well I've been to this rodeo before. A year ago he did this. He kept saying over and over again, in emails, in texts, in person. " i know you're going to hate me. I just don't want you to hate me. I know you think it's all my fault. I know you blame me for everything. You don't want to be my friend".
I know I keep beating this dead horse, but then he invited me and the kids over to his place for BBq and to see their room ( this was about a month before OW..that I know of) and he gave me a tour of his complex and showed me the laundry room. He kept asking me if I was ok, and I said No I wasn't. I walked away and he grabbed me from behind, wouldn't let me go and hugged me from the behind and said " Im just so afraid you're going to hate me, I don't want you to hate me". I told him " Im working really hard on not hating you".
I made assumptions that his actions meant he wanted to reconcile. When I called him on it, he told me that he never had any intention of trying to fix our marriage and the fact that we slept together didn't fix anything but it wasn't meaningless and that he was sorry, but he was just drunk and Lonely at the time. Sorry for confusing me, the kids, and himself. But that all he's felt like was friends for 6 years and he doesn't have those type of feelings for me anymore. That absolutely devastated me, to hear that I was literally used by my own husband.
Im really angry right now so Im going to let out a little spew of my own. Though he has gotten my attention, by his random acts of kindness, the thought that he's still obsessed about not looking like an A$$hole to me or society DOES NOT IMPRESS ME. It doesn't impress me BECAUSE, he is doing it for the wrong reasons. I think he feels that if he can get my "blessing" for what he's done, then I will skip around town telling everyone one what wonderful person he is and we still have a wonderful relationship even though we're divorced.
Infact it makes me more angry that he's got to get into so much hot water before he takes note of his actions and tries to make up for it. But see I don't think he's doing it because he's truly sorry for the hurt he's caused me or the kids. I think he's doing it make himself "look" better by doing the right thing. Because he's so emotionally warped and unavailable . it's like he's mechanical to be honest. He does and says all the right things, but there really isn't any meaning behind it. I think there's maybe a small gratification or a void that's temporarily filled, but grasping the true emotion compassion, empathy, sorrow, I don't think he really gets that. It's almost like he's a robot or something.
Golf Mom I guess I've just become very hardened. I do not trust that man because trusting him has only brought on betrayal and lies. I have no desire to be friends with him, though my small communications have been my way of testing the waters with him to see if he bolts and runs and starts spewing, or if he steps up to the plate and acts noble.
I will get that book and read it. I think I better just come right out and ask him why he's being so nice to me and get a few things straight with him.
Whew....now see I just went threw a big hissy fit, all for what?
I totally get it, kimmerz. I guess I just want to believe that all of these WS's will do the right thing in the end and that all our suffering wasn't for nothing. I just can't wrap my mind around the devastation that they cause even though I'm living it. How do these people just throw away long term marriages, their families, financial stability, etc.? What do they gain? Why does it take so long, beyond the window of reconciliation in most cases, for the reality of what they've done to sink in? These are all hypothetical questions, of course. I so wish that your XH would snap out of this and realize how lucky he is to have someone who is willing to invest so much of themselves into having a good marriage. I can't imagine the OW really has a clue. I'm just so sad for you and what you've been through. All of your personal growth will payoff. You can create the life of your dreams. It just takes time and a lot of patience.
Hi Ya Kimmerz,
If H has cluster B traits, then what the external world thinks of them does play very prominently in their mind. W has some HPD/BPD traits (which were amplified this past fall/winter, and from what I have read, is common for the mid-lifers to have these traits ramp up) which I can now see going back to day one of our R, as we all have analyzed things and see what was was always there that was off our radar, or, we chose sub-consciously to overlook or deny. If you're like me, it is hard to let go of the fact that this stuff was always there, why didn't we see it?? Heck, I have a psych degree and counseling experience, you'd think I just might have figured it out....but love, and hope that they will get better put on the minimizing blinders for me.
But we know better now, don't we?
And that knowledge will go into any future R, whether new person or reconciled spouse, which is why
all our suffering wasn't for nothing
Your hissy fit helped you put things together, helped you grow...
So what if he skips around town thinking he is all wonderful....many will know different, especially him, deep inside.
What are you doing this weekend for YOU and your KIDS?
Hang in there!!
T^2
Hi all,
What Im doing this weekend for me and the kids is to relax and have fun in the sun!
The kids are back this afternoon from 2 days with their father. D9's friend is coming over for an overnighter. Im well prepared with pizza, chips, and soda. Xh would've never gone for this unless they stayed in their rooms, were quiet and didn't disturb him. I plan on getting my lawn mowed. Yard work is fun and I like it if it's not too big of a job. I did myself a favor and hired some people to mow part of the yard what was out of control. They did such a good job and were so thrilled to get the work.
In the mean time I need to take the time and wipe absolutely everything down that I can get my hands on with vinegar. All my cats spray and have a pissing contest constantly. Interesting.... when Xh moved out the spraying stopped. The week he started coming over daily to pick the kids up for school it started again. It doesn't matter where the girls put their overnight bags, the cats will find it and pee on it, because they smell XH.
I think I will read my Suze Orman book and try to check out the 4 agreements through the online library. I think learning to get extra smart about money is a wonderful gift I can give to myself, but my children too. I've been pretty good about money but not as clever in how to divide it up in really fruitful ways.
Now all I need to do is get a massage, pedicure, manicure, and haircut and I will really be feeling good.
And Happy Mother's Day!
Here it is Mother's Day, and I've spent the majority of yesterday angry and this morning angry.
I've been reading about PA behavior and co parenting issues.
Why am I so angry I keep asking myself? Why can I be ok and practially not give a hoot anymore then just one thing happens and Im set off? Is this PTSD?
What set me off was hearing how XH calls his mother frequently in his truck, on cell phone, stereo speaker, with the kids. And another, him making contact with me about child support garnishment papers and actually helping me with that.
The first thing I thought was " gee all he ever did was ignore his mother for years when she would come over to visit. I had to remind him of her birthday and mother's day constantly". That in regards to the child support I thought" I still can't believe this. A few months ago it was all my fault he was broke and that he wasn't obligated to pay it in the first place, but all he did was give and give and I still wanted more".
Now the about face turn around. What the hell is he trying to prove?
I think what's bothering me, is that he really must be happy since he left. He calls his mom and checks in on her, I hear how he appears to be such a caring and attentive father from other people, My SIL even indicated that she didn't think Xh would ever be depressed again now that he's so happy. He's completely gotten aboard the Co parenting wagon and is consistent in making the first move in cooperating with me and communicating with me.
I've done some reading on the relationship addiction people have when coming out of a narcissistic relationship. There are certain personality traits these people have and this has everything to do with the circular emotions and spinning the wheels. I met 9 out of 12 traits.
I guess what bothers me is that it really does make me feel like I was the one at total fault for him being miserable. Mind you he's been acting this way before the divorce was final. I expected him to take a turn and go back to jerkville but he continues to act decent.
This doesn't make sense to me...but Im angry that he's being so nice and coming on so strong! It's freaking me out and everytime I have ANY interaction with him, no matter how short and to the point I try to make it, I feel like he drags it out with lengthy words and him actually trying to "fix" things.
His flip flopping is making me crazy.
I told my best friend about his sudden changes and even she looked bewildered. Her only thought was " well maybe he just decided it wasn't worth it anymore to be mean and nasty".
I know what I need which is literally NO CONTACT with him. But this is impossible, Modified Contact is all I can do. Yet modified contact is like having to endure hell all over again somedays!
I guess this is my mind set. He wanted out. He left. He wanted a divorce. He filed. He wanted a new piece of A$$. He moved her in. He didn't want to help the girls during their suffering, he wanted to blame me and make it my fault. He didn't want to co parent he wanted to fight. He got his divorce. WE are done. I expect to be left alone. Let me live my life AWAY FROM YOU.
Yet he's so ever present.
I do not like him as a person. He may be the father of the girls, but as far as Im concerned he's just a creep.
This just goes against every fiber of my being...having to stay involved with someone that I have no desire to be around, have anything to do with, hear about, etc. If I don't like someone, it's for a good reason. And by all means, I do NOT have anything to do with them.
UGH.....I gotta let this conflict with him go, I know I do. I just don't know how to re wire my thinking. To me having to deal with him, it's almost "dirty" in a way to me. It makes me feel emotionally, mentally, and spiritually raped.
I totally understand, kimmerz. I'm having the same kind of day. I wish I had something to offer. I know someone with more insight and wisdom will respond with comforting words. In the meantime, please know that you are heard. I feel your anger and sadness. You are still grieving. I've read, probably here, that once we heal we will no longer hate. Your strong feelings might be an indication that you still have feelings for your XH who continues to reject you. I know that you're disgusted by him and what he's done to you and your family, but it's OK to still love him if that's how you feel. I am struggling the same way. How can I love someone who can seemingly care less about me and the boys. We've all been cheated and the truth is we'll never be the same. We will heal, but the experience will stay with us. We will never get the time back that we spent grieving rather than enjoying our children and our lives in general.
FYI, snodderly has my email address for you once you track hers down. You'll find it quickly using the information that was posted on my thread (can't remember it right now).
Hi GM.
I was trying to track that thread down using the search option and I still couldn't find it! Did you use the search bar?
Well my Mother's day took a turn, not the best but it was good because it was just that little dose of reality I needed to get in order to get me on the straight and narrow again.
Ex didn't pay child support for April. Garnishment hasn't begun because apparently according to him his employer didn't get the paper work. So I asked him for the 700 in April given I had no idea how long the garnishment would take.
Well the FIGHT WAS ON! He went on to tell me that he felt it was ok NOT to pay me in April because #1. I didn't ask. #2. I got a large tax return. #3. I "tricked" him into paying child support in March and an extra 100.00 to boot! And that he's on a fixed budget and he is behind on his bills and owes the IRS money.
I then told him I didn't believe him and that he breaks my heart and I hoped that he had fun spending that extra 700 he kept in April. He then responded he didn't care what I thought of him and if I was looking for a fight that I wasn't getting one and that he's only behind 330 in garnishments and has to pay it back by the 27th but that was between him and the state. He also said that he INSISTED that I go through the state so bills are paid for first and that I have to deal with them and then they get the money from him.
So I went on to tell him that I wasn't looking for a fight I was looking for the money. And based on his kind actions over the last 4 months and that we were communicating so well, that I had the unrealistic expectation he would actually talk to me first and that we come to an agreement that he not pay or pay the child support. I also told him that the only thing I've asked from his is that he be upfront and honest, pay the support and tell me his schedule so I know when he has the girls. Other than that I didn't want anything else from him. I told him that I thought he would consider child support something he would be proud to pay and not is some sick excuse for me to suck the money out of him, and who was filling his head with those ideas anyway?
See He had NO PROBLEM paying the support since january and did it eagerly. The minute he saw a loophole he went for it.
Now I know why my gut has been in knotts for months and why I've felt so conflicted. It's the confliction that has my anger bursting out left and right. I knew something was WRONG. My gut was right, he was putting on an act, and his true colors finally came out again. He's been playing me all along, with this Mr. Nice Guy Act. He's been controlling me, keeping me exactly where he wants me. And the minute I stand up for what is right and moral....he flips out and gets mega defensive and now all the sudden he doesn't care what I think.
At any rate GM this is excatly what I needed from him to get my head straight. What he did was just gaslight the hell out of me. A year ago I would've fell for it and said it was my fault and that no, he didn't have to pay the money because I didn't ask. But thanks to me growing a set of my own balls and the support from everyone here, and my reading of narcissism, I was only mad for about 30 minutes, calmed down considered the source and then responded back. A year ago this would've devastated me to the core.
I haven't had any response and I won't. Whenever I stand on my honesty and morality box he's at a loss for words. However he flipped his lid because I didn't buy his bullchit about not paying child support. I've now learned, when challenging his word, you will get spew. When you don't do as your told the FIRST TIME he will retaliate. He told me once in the heat of spew that he was to only tell me something once and not have to ever tell me anything again if I didn't understand. So here I am standing back and realizing he was "acting" as a friend but truly not being one. If he truly was being one, he would've asked me if we could work out something in regards to the child support in April. He ALWAYS has a justification for his actions. The man does not right from wrong, but he mostly chooses wrong to suit his own needs.
Ok I will keep trying to find snodderly's email! It will be good to email eachother!
OMG, when does it end?!!! You know this isn't about you and girls, right? His world is falling apart. He can't keep up financially and he's going to make you the bad guy. He's the OW's problem now. She can bail him out of his mess. The fantasy life may come to an end soon. Financial strain is terrible for a R, especially one that was built on lust like their's was. Your XH is mad at you for not going along with the juggling plan that he's come up with. I dread dealing with this myself. My H has big plans for himself which require a decent amount of capital. When his poker money runs out, and it will, his fantasy life will blow up also unless, of course, he partners up with a cash cow.
Kimmerz,
I am sorry he's acting like a spoiled, cheap child. He's finding out what reality is and the consequences of his actions. They very seldom do anything nice w/o a "clause" being attached to their "nice actions".
Money is power and when they don't have their money, they get ugly and stingy. He doesn't really want to share his money w/you and if the garnishment process had been set up properly and in a timely manner, it should have kicked in already. If you don't get the funds for April, contact your lawyer and allow him to do the necessary work to get the funds for you. It will cost you money, but in the end, you'll get your children's support money.
Hey Snodderly!
Now you've got mail!
Yep xh has serious issues with money, and always has. I've never seen him become so greedy as he has the past 4 years though.
I contacted my attorney and they gave me a direct line to talk to someone. They said if I don't get any info by the end of the week to call them back and then their office will try and help a bit.
In regards to getting the money for April, it could end up costing me more money than what he owes me to try and pursue it. Not sure if it's worth it.
I too agree that reality is kicking his butt in regards to finances and he doensn't know how to handle it. It's just this simple. You pay your child support whether it was verbally agreed upon, ordered by the court or both.
I literally can't believe I was married to this man. I knew something was up, sure enough I think he was trying to get me not to notice he didn't pay me.
Kimmerz,
You and golf mom should now have mail!
Stick to your guns about the child support. If you give one little inch, he will take the full mile.
OMG!!!! Im fit to be tied!
Has anyone had any issues in dealing with Child Support SErvices?
I am so mad! I've been calling daily and can NOT get intouch with anyone. I keep getting voicemail.
My attorneys tell me "just be patient Kim. It's a long process and miserable but it's worth it because you will be paid up when it gets rolling."
2 months behind of child support/spousal support makes me very angry. No one seems to care or will return my phone calls back. You know what? Maybe tomorrow I will just march myself directly into the court house and talk to someone.
Yes that's what Im going to do.
Hey Kimmerz. You may be right, he may be trying to soften you up about the child support. But you know what? Anger + Government process = frustration.
Take you lawyers advice and be patient and keep calling. If that doesn't work, let your lawyer deal with it. It may not make financial sense, but it sets precedent. It's important to be consistent and to firm.
Take the anger out of the equation though. It won't help
It's just business.
AJ
Hang in there, kimmerz. You will get the money that you're owed. I know that doesn't help you at the moment if you're in need of those payments. Keep in mind that this is a temporary (although frustrating) problem for you, but a long term problem for your XH. I wonder how exciting the fantasy life is now?
Hi Everyone,
I finally got in touch with a live person from the child support office today. As it turns out they were given the wrong address for Ex's employer. The one I gave them was different that the original they got. They's sent out a new letter and hopefully I should get some payments within the next 2 weeks.
I am so relieved and can exhale a bit now and not have to dig so deep into savings. Between an extra day at work next week, extra long month and actually getting my payments, I will actually have a little extra. Thank you God!
Gee...Im starting to see the silver lining in life once again....maybe there's hope after all!
His fantasy life.....well aparently I was so horrible to live with that having absolutely no wiggle room financially, and now owing back taxes is worth it if he gets to be with her! She is literally at his every beck and call, AND they both are online gaming freaks. They're much more compatible with eachother than he and I ever were. She's always made him feel confident and in control as a man.
I'm glad to see that you were finally able to speak to someone about the support payments. Two weeks isn't that far off and once the account is set up, you shouldn't have to worry about it again or contact your xh about it.
I hope the rest of your week is a good one.
I'm so glad, kimmerz. You certainly don't need to worry about that on top of everything else. As for your XH, yes, he's maybe convinced himself that OW is perfect for him, but don't you believe it. I know you are in the process of moving on and don't want him back, but for what it's worth remember you were the grounded one, the adult, in your relationship. He's having fun right now and that may last quite awhile, but just like a teenager, eventually he will remember the safety and security of home and family. What once felt like a life full of restrictions might actually start to look appealing. I'm certainly no MLC expert, but I wonder if this is why so many "boomerang" until the LBS says enough. It's also interesting that these WS's leave the life that apparently made them unhappy, but they often go recreate a similar existence with someone else. I don't know. I'm just still trying to understand it all and what they actually gain. It seems that in many case life was pretty good and simple. How do they convince themselves that having to meet a new person's needs, go through D, etc. is the life they've been looking for?
Hi GM....
Yes the Boomeranger is certainly interesting isn't it? Xh was definately a Boomeranger and I guess to a certain extent still is. See this weird MLC behavior started with him 6 years ago. He left and came back two times before. What pulled him back the two times before were the true comforts of home, family, and lonliness. I think this time he was so damn determined he was leaving for good he did everything in his power to keep himself away....to a certain extent. Sure hasn't had any problem keeping in touch when he's felt the need, nor interfering with some stuff to boot.
I think the motivation behind their choices is very much like dangling a carrot infront of a rabbit. Their carrot is the life they feel they are entitled to have at this point and time. They'll keep chasing that carrot until they get exhausted and realize what issues they were running from needed to be resolved within themselves all along....if they're lucky.
Yes from what I can gather Xh has semi recreated that with OW. She does for him what I did for him when he was the happiest in our marriage. My XH could not understand why I wasn't the same person and our marriage wasn't the same marriage it was 7 years ago. It was odd...it's like he was in and out of this weird reality. It's like he started to wake up to what his life really was, but had no idea how it got that way, so he blamed it all on me. He kept referring to how things were in the past and how bad they were now. I explained to him the Hell WE'VE BEEN THROUGH the past several years. Sometimes I wonder if the past several years have been so traumatic for him that he actually went into some sort of disassociation and has only retained bits and pieces. It very well could be. WE've had so much loss. He told me if he could do magic he'd go back in time and fix things but he couldn't and he missed things the way the used to be. Then in the same breath turned right around and said he missed things about us, but it didn't change the way he felt about me and I couldn't stop him from living his life. He also said that sometimes he didn't know what to do but then Id piss him off and help him make his choices. That was the last meaningful email conversation we ever had.
I don't know GM...it's like watching a train wreck and not being able to help. Like watching a man jump overboard but deliberately refusing to take the life ring for help.
At any rate, some new news. My pen pal male friend I've been in contact with for 4 months want to meet me in person! We've exchanged pictures, and he's really cute. I don't know when we'll meet in person, but Im hoping soon. he lives a little bit away from me so we'd have to find a meeting place half way.
My aunt is concerned how XH will react if I end up having a relationship with this person. I figure he won't care about me, but will get paranoid in thinking about another man around his children and taking his place as their father. Though no one could replace their father, I can see my kids really like my friend. But then again they may not, cause they sure the heck don't like OW.
But we'll see.
20/20 being hindsight I can see his MLC ( if this is what it really is) quandry right then and there. But at the time it was just BS to me. He was also already involved with OW at the time he wrote that too. As heartbroken as I've been this past year I also know that I've come to the end of my rope with him too.
Kimmerz, you sure have a good understanding about things. You seem at peace with everything today. I'm so glad. Regarding your new male friend, I'm so excited for you! I hope you are able to meet soon. You deserve happiness.
Idk, when my sister got engaged to new man her XH (he left her just after (literally, just after) their 2nd kid was born for OW much younger) came pounding on the door trying to talk her out of it...your XH may have issues with it, as I have read that they want you to stay in the same place you were...
Yes, it is sad to watch them flounder, but it's not as if we pushed them to where they are (regardless of what they think about that, or what we USED to think)...really, it IS their choice...your XH could have come back, you would have worked on the R with him, but he chose not to. I am glad you are seeing all that you are and coming to the right conclusions.
New man will be getting quite a woman...
T^2
Hey guys!
How is everyone? I don't post as often as I'd like to, just been so busy! The school year is coming to a close and there just seems to be a mad rush for all these extra curricular activities before school is out. Plus Im working some extra shifts for a little extra money.
Im doing better each day.I feel strong, and alive again. My interests in life and interests in hobbies are coming back. I get excited about doing things again. Think Im pretty much out of the fog that I fought damn near to my spiritual death to get to. Im finding all these things that I've struggled with are falling into place. My anger and forgiveness towards ex husband is one. The saying " the truth shall set you free" is what we all should live by, because it does. I find that NC brings me the peace I need to feel forgiving, and the anger dramatically melts away.
I feel I have the answers to all the most important questions I've had during this whole ordeal. I had to accept the truth about my XH and accept the reality of my situation for what it was. It took several backslides, a few nasty arguments with ex, and about a million tears. But I finally feel like I've put that last jigsaw puzzle piece in place...to the 5000 piece puzzle.
Things still come to me, but it's more of a reminder of how things really were between Xh and myself during our marriage. At least the last 7 years or so. After it's all said and done ( and beleive me ,there's alot!) the one thing that truly saddens me is that healthy communication is not, nor was it ever possible bewteen him and myself. I tried. I tried so hard. I still try when it's needed.
I work with the elderly and deal with dementia all the time. Getting through to someone in the throws of dementia induced psychosis is easier than getting through to XH. Even being aware of MLC brain on my part....You just can't get anywhere with these MLCers. LOL... I guess the only little question I have about Ex, is this really MLC, or is this just really him? Has he been in MLC 6 years, or did his true colors just come full bore, and he was lying all this time? It really doesn't matter at this point and time. Dealing with them is all the same no matter what the hell is going on with MLCers anyway.
Im still sad that I have to let go at times, but it's the only way I will survive and thrive. I want to thrive for myself, and for my girls. I miss the good parts of him alot. But I have alot of good going on in my own life now.
Thanks for the compliment T. I really hope she see's you for the person YOU ARE and have BECOME. She is getting the benefits of a rare kind of man, but doesn't know it now. I pray she wakes up, I really do. I know how much you want your marriage to work out. I was reading on your thread and it seems like your wife is making progress...at least from my view point I see her trying. If she's willing to talk about it, I find that as one HUGE obstacle gone through. I literally don't know how you muster the patience to tolerate this with her but I applaud you with all my might. The ability to find yourself and grow in a situation like yours.....well for most people is damn near impossible. However she has shown positive signs which must be encouraging and and give you just a little more patience and will to keep going. But if the time comes that staying involved with her is consuming you too much, don't be afraid to let go and keep going on.
I know for myself, I was so worn down from XH issues, I lost all patience. I think when he moved out he possibly was at the same place your wife is now. But because he could NOT express himself and tell me anything encouraging, I just gave up. I accept now that XH just can't communicate intense emotion unless it's anger and it can be blamed on someone else.
I also accept, this is a deal breaker for any romantic relationship I have with anyone from here on out.
Ok all have a great weekend.
Kimmmerz---That is the nicest thing anyone has said to me in a long, long time...it touched something deep, made me cry.
T^2
Hey T^2,
Well see what I mean? It takes a rare kind of man to tell the world he cries!
You know what's so lonely about this journey? We the LBS go through all these changes. We start out doing it in hopes to get our marriages back, but end up making these changes for ourselves. We can see our changes, other people can see our changes, but the one person we really want the most to see them and accept us with open arms.....well they don't seem to see us.
I didn't know you before this website, but I do know how you choose to behave and act now. It's clear where you're coming from. Which is a place of Love, understanding, compassion and empathy towards your wife. That's where we all come from. It's just a shame they can't see us for who we are now.
I know you know this, but they can't see us because they're too wrapped up in themselves at this time. Where we come from love and understanding, they come from confusion, anger, and a fog. Just more proof that it really isn't about us, it's about them, their issues and how they see the world.
I was curious T. You said your sister got engaged after her H left for an OW right after the baby was born.....I'll save my sarcastic remarks for what he did to your sister later! At any rate, what was his reason for pounding on the door and telling her not to marry this new guy after what he did to her? That sounds like an entertaining explanation I'd like to hear!
I also wanted to make a comment about these changes people see.... I keep getting compliments on how good I look, that I've lost weight, and that Im glowing and seem to be doing so good.
The first thing everyone says " Gee Kim....you got a new man in your life?"
I say " nope! No man in my life.... Kimmy's just gettin her groove back, that's all!"
My point is, Im glad I've reached this place without having to jump into a rebound to build me back up. However it's lonlier than I thought. It dawned on me the other night at my daughters Spring Concert as I saw all the parents together, just how long I've been alone. Yes, totally alone for 1 year, but emotionally alone for 6 years.
Im tired of being alone and tired of having to do this parenting thing by myself all the time. It's tough, especially when you have a strong willed 9 year old that pushes boundaries at every angle possible.
I hope I find someone that's ok with kids and wants to help me raise them...before theyr'e grown.
I'm glad you didn't do the rebound thing. It can suck, but to each their own.
Can I suggest that you are on a good path, K? Wanting help and to not be lonely are good signs for your journey. But it might be helpful to not give in to that. That's not the basis for a long term and healthy relationship. Yet. It's part of one certainly, but there is so much more. What you describe are just pieces of your life, but not your whole life.
If I was dating somebody like that, I'd walk away. I'd walk because that person is not yet ready for a relationship. They are looking to replace a lost partnership.
I get the loneliness. I felt it too. It led me to a rebound relationship and I wish I had made other choices. It was quickly apparent that we both weren't ready for a relationship as she was doing similar (in her case, her H had died a few years earlier).
You have to get to a point where you offer more because you have more than you can keep to yourself, K. That's when you are not just getting by but are really living your life. You are well on your way there now. That glow? It's a good sign that the spark is returning and the light is getting brighter.
Don't settle for just a partner to help pass the time and raise the kids. That won't likely end well.
Date because you are lonely and seeking companionship perhaps. Not because you need a father figure for your kids. They have one even if he is "absent" to some degree.
Date for you and your personal needs. Date because you have a lot more than you need and can give.
You'll be glad you did and you are not likely far off from that point. Certainly closer than yesterday
I'm happy things are getting better in your life, K. They will get much much better I'm sure..
AJ
I too have wondered, am I just having a pang of lonliness, or am I ready for a relationship? How do I even know when Im ready for a relationship? How does a person know if someone else is ready for a relationship?
I've been in the situation where Ive had to depend on myself for so long, that maybe I don't know how to have a relationship. Im to the point that I know Im the only person I can depend upon so I've worked on a relationship with myself. Still have a long ways to go. I just wish I had someone to lean on and take care of me once in a while. It's hard trying to pump up what used to be my " essence" when Im running on empty alot of the time. However I think alot of that could be due to some physical problems Im having too. I've noticed that physical problems and emotional problems go hand in hand. In my case, I can't tell if it's the chicken or the egg story going on here!
Im worried about choosing the wrong person more than anything. I don't want to hurt anyone, absolutely not. I also don't want to get hurt either. It all seems so scary.
Yes the girls have a father, but I could use some help with them here at home. I don't want to depend on him for help with them. We even tend to clash on our parenting styles too. I guess this is the type of 180 sitch Im in with their father that drives so many spouses insane. He went from being an absentee parent to jumping in the middle of everything, acting as if he was trying to make up for lost time with them. He started stepping up to the plate and offering help in ways that he NEVER would've done here at home, and never did when I asked it of him. Gee now all the sudden when I tell him I need some help he's at the front door with his shining armour and noble steed here to help. Hell he was even willing to help me with personal favors. Then when money gets involved, I found out once again he's being secretive and still can't be honest with me!
I haven't gotten over my anger and resentment enough with their father to be able to let him cross my safety zone yet. I don't want him interfering and involved on my turf. I don't get involved with his turf, but he tries to get involved on mine. Ya, I know...put is aside for the kids sake. Well it's not going to work for me until I get over some stuff, and that's going to take at least one more year.
Hey Kimmerz! Just wanted to say, when you said this, "We the LBS go through all these changes. We start out doing it in hopes to get our marriages back, but end up making these changes for ourselves. We can see our changes, other people can see our changes, but the one person we really want the most to see them and accept us with open arms.....well they don't seem to see us." It was like you were totally in my head! I think about that a lot... it's sad.... but it is what it is I suppose. Whatever is meant to be will be, I'm glad you are doing well.
A year? Well, at least you know what and how long, right?
AJ
Yes AJM..... A year.
A year because 2 steps forward 3 steps back for me emotionally.
Remember, you're seasoned at this.
I am not.
Gotcha. I was asking why the time minimum/limit though mostly.
Seasoned? lol. I guess I am to some degree. Then again not...
Take your time K. I was only half smiling when I said at least you know how long you need.
AJ
OMG....
What is wrong with me? I was just sitting down journaling the qualities I would like in a new partner.
I started journaling all the things I would like to do with this new person.
And guess what I did and didn't even know it at first? I wrote down all the incredibly romantic things my XH used to do when the passion was still white hot between us.
Now Im crying...DAMN IT!
How on earth do people actually move on to new relationships after long term marriages? How do you do that without intuding thoughts of your XH, hell even people that have been widowed? How do you do this?
I feel haunted by him. How will I ever be able to have a physically intimate relationship with someone ever again without XH popping into my head?
And though this is completely off the subject all the sudden I've had a thought with me all day today.
Why do MLCers become such liars? I guess if I was going through MLC I could answer that. XH cousin had an MLC a few years ago...and boy was she a liar. She and her husband went to counseling and reconcilled, but stil have alot of problems.
This is where Im 2 steps forward 3 steps back. It's like Im ready to move on with my life and feel Im doing pretty good. But I still have days where EVERYTHING reminds me of him or our life together. I tried fighting it with all my might, tried pretending it didn't exist, and just delete it all from my memory down to a simple acceptance that he and I have kids with eachother and that's all.
Guess what? It doesn't work. Im faced with it every day. I see so much of myself and him in our children with each passing day. Our 9 year old has all the stubborness and strong will he and I both have. Our 12 year old has all the kindness, compassion, and tenderness, anxietys and self esteem issues we both battled as teens. My d12 inherited Xh gift for technology. My d9 inherited XH gift for organization and goal setting. They both have our sense of humor.
I feel like the good part of him died years ago and all that's left is this alien monster that allows the good part to peak out once in a while. I've said all along, that person is not my husband. His very own mother said " that is not my son" by the way she's seen him act.
Im going to bed and Im going to have a good cry!
Oh, kimmerz. I completely understand. I've had the same kind of day as you. I burst into tears when I got home from work. I am so lonely and starving for affection from my H. I don't know how I could ever get involved with someone else. I think it would just make me miss my H more. I don't know how people move on, but clearly they do. Maybe it's a choice we're not ready for.
Hi Kimmerz...I think if I did that exercise I would end up where you did if my sitch paralleled yours...idk...maybe try the exercise from the other end?
The list of deal breakers?
T^2
Can anyone post a link here on the site that describes the distancer and pursuer dance somewhat? Maybe give me the name of a website?
I looked online at Amazon at the The Solo Partner. I really had hoped I could get it through kindle but it's not available. I did come across a great site online that had a man doing live you tube videos on marriage counseling/relationships, and distance/pursuer was one of them. I learned alot in 3 minutes.
Kimmerz,
Did you try looking up Phil DeLuca author, of The Solo Partner? You may be able to find out more this way.
The distancer and pursuer dance is this (in very simple terms): Your spouse may be very distant from you and you, as the lbs, will pursue them. For example, your h may not have much contact w/you, but you continue to call, email or text him about anything and everything...thus you are the pursuer. Another way to look at this is that you are in a no contact mode w/your mlcer. The mlcer will sense this and start sniffing around you again. Maybe calling w/excuses, etc. He is pursuing you in this case. Once he has you interested and on the hook once again, the dance of distancer/pursuer begins anew. The only way to break this cycle is not to react to anything he says or does when he attempts to bait you and get you hooked once again.
If you do some research and in the mlc archives, there was a lot of discussion about this dance.
Kimmerz,
This link may give you some insight into the distancer/pursuer dance until you can locate additional information.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=714209
Ok...Im confused on a few things here. In light of an interesting but simple interaction with XH yesterday... I once again have my wheels spinning. We had a fight 2 weeks ago over money. Since then I relfected on the sitch, decided to let it go and accept it was what it was. I even felt sad we had an argument, but I have to say it was a good one. I still don't agree with his actions, but there isn't anything I can do about it. I saw him for the first time in 2 months yesterday as he dropped off D9. I was blown away at how sweet he was. We're not talking civil, polite, using decent tone of voice to just get through the next few moments, we're talking sweet. I really was expecting arrogance, aloofness, and rudeness. Not a lick of it yesterday.
We detatch so we no longer emotionally invest ourselves into a relationship with someone that's not emotionally available, so we work on ourselves.
We act as if everything is fine in hopes to give them the idea that we are moving on with our lives and we're just fine without them...also in hopes of actually feeling that way after time.
ACting as if, is supposed to get the WAS to notice something, get their attention. Possibly have them feel drawn back to us.
WE're supposed to have them pursue us.
How do we know their interests are re kindled? How do we know if they're actually a little curious as to what's going on with us or if we're involved with someone? How do you know this if there is absolutely no communication with them other than business? Do we just wait around and hope they drop a hint?
My XH is by nature is the most TIGHT LIPPED person I have ever met in my life. I mean I don't think the man would yell for help if he was drowning.
Im a communicator, he's not. I still struggle with trying to read his actions. I struggle cause he keeps catching me off guard. It's because of this action oriented dance we've done that I always snap and start asking for answers, and then I find out I've been completely off base the entire time...based on what he verbally tells me.
His actions speak differently than his words and his words are different that his actions.
Because of this I feel like Im stupid, hanging on to that one last breath, that one last chance to finally understand what he's trying to do.
I now feel like he's trying to DB me. He's persistent in the basic communications. Just when I think he will no longer speak to me, he does. On his own accord or quickly answering any text I may send him.
His actions say to me " Ok Im ready to communicate with you. Im trying the best I can".
Ok...I really can only think of two sitches over the last 10 years that I've read about that were posted on this site where this has worked. ARe there any happy endings to read about here?
The most I can tell is that he is trying to develop some sort of relationship with me that goes beyond basic civil communication.
Im just not sure what I want to do with it.
Watch, and wait. If he wants back in, then he has to earn his way, IMO. Actions do speak louder than words. Don't rush back into his arms at a flick of a finger from him. Patience is key here. I've often found that when MLCers are acting nice, they are about to drop a bomb on you. Sorry, don't want to sound all doom and gloom, but he did put you through hell, so ....
The only bomb he could drop on me would be he's marrying OW, moving to another state to cause trouble with child support, or losing his job so i won't get child support.
Suppose I should just come out and ask him?
I guess the reason I get so uneasy is just when I think the last shoe has dropped, then another comes, and another. It's like Im trying to stay one step ahead of the game so when the shoe is dropped again, then Im not so blown away.
I know the key is to detach and move on enough that whatever they do will not effect us at all. It's like I finally get to that point and then something changes to where I HAVE to speak to him or deal with him in some way. It's like life forces it, I can't avoid him no matter how much I want to.
If he is engaged he hasn't spoken a word to anyone about it or whoever he's told has kept a very tight lip about it because the kids don't even know. He and Ow put on a very distant show infront of the kids I guess. He's focused on the kids when they're there, and she's pretty much doing her own thing. He and Ow tend to talk alot I guess, but what they talk about isn't anything different than what he and I used to talk about. With the exception that they do online gaming all the time.
Im just a pathetic mess. Im feeling the sting of abandonment again lately and I think that's part of why I still continue to rehash all this. It's times like this a rebound relationship sounds so good, just anything to get my mind off the pain.
Kimmerz,
BeingMe is absolutely correct...sit quietly and patiently...the answers will come. You can have arguments/disagreements w/the mlcer one minute and then next, they are as sweet as pie. It's evident that relationship and money discussions are sore subjects w/them, so yesterday was a different story because the topics were not brought up.
Generally, when the mlcer is nice and sweet, they are up to something or they've done something that you will eventually find out about. Keep your eyes and ears open...
Mlcers have this sixth sense that allows them to pick up on whether or not we have actually moved on w/our lives or if we still waiting on them. Our actions speak loud and clear to them, just as theirs will to us. If he's curious about you, I'm sure he will ask questions a certain way you will unknowingly tell him things. You don't know if he's talked to your daughters and they've told him things...trust me...he knows more about what you are doing than you think he does. After all, we are creatures of habit and they did lives w/us for quite some time...
If you aren't sure what to do, then do nothing. The answers will come, but you can't force the situation. If your xh is ready to work on the relationship, he has a lot of work to do and you do not want to take him back until he's proven to you that he really wants to reconcile w/you and he needs to earn your trust.
Kimmerz,
I realize that you are just thinking out loud, but a rebound relationship is not something you need to be involved in right now. You need to heal first and get your life in order. What would happen if you ended up getting into a relationship w/someone else and then your xh wants to reconcile w/you? You then have involved another person into the scenario and that person may get hurt because he/she has now invested time and possibly love into this new relationship w/you. This has happened numerous times on this board and the posters have admitted later that they wished that they had not done this until they were absolutely certain of what they wanted to do about the spouse/xspouse. It's okay to date and have fun, but you do not want to get seriously involved w/someone until your head, heart and soul are all in sync together and you are absolutely sure you are over your xh and will not reconcile w/him.
As for him possibly being engaged to the ow, I wouldn't ask him anything about it. They tend not to tell you the truth and will avoid answering you directly about such things. If this should happen, trust me, you will hear about it at some point in time. News of this nature doesn't stay shoved under the rug for very long. He would most likely forget himself and say something around your daughters and that would probably be the way you would hear about it.
You are not a pathetic mess, but you are allowing your mind to wander and thoughts of him are taking up entirely too much room in your mind and he's not even paying rent. Of course, you are not going to be able to avoid him....you have two beautiful daughters that you brought into this world and share custody with. You will need to learn to keep your emotional side out of the interactions you have w/him and think of the interactions as business for now. Yes, you will learn how to do this, but it takes time and patience. It's one step forward and two steps back...but you will get it when the time is right.
You asked if there were any posters that had happy endings. I personally know of one such poster who still remains in contact w/me and her name was whats_next. She and her husband are doing extremely well and her two children are growing up very quickly. If you do a search on her name, the thread you are looking for is called update-positive outcome. Yes, there are a few that have very happy outcomes, but they leave the board in many cases to focus on their relationships and do not return.
Wow, thanks Snodderly. Thanks a bunch. I appreciate your words of wisdom. They are a comfort on days like these. Though my day has been spent primarily sad, Im feeling much better. I just needed a processing day. I also know that when Im really tired, well then my entire world is off it's axis. I've just been exhausted lately, and when Im exhausted I tend to get overwhelmed over everything and then Im obsessing. It's hard being alone with no one to lean on. Not that Xh was ever one to lean on. I think Im just really missing my mom. I don't think we ever stop needing our mom's no matter how old we get. She died 6 years ago. She was only 63 years old.
Never in a million years would I ever want to inflict any heart ache and pain on someone else like it's been done to me. Thanks for the advice on how I really need to be in a strong place before I enter a new relationship. As for dating, I don't know what that is. I never "dated" before. I just went for the whole enchilada with XH. I would like to date, but all the nice and interesting guys are not in my town. Some of the singles guys in this town are friends of XH. No thank you....LOL.
It's true and Im aware of XH taking up too much time in my head, and no he's not paying rent! He's not paying anything! Lol. My aunt thinks he was extra nice when he dropped D9 off at work because he knows everyone probably doesn't think highly of him there.
Well as I write this Xh sent a text of his days off and started texting D12. Ok... just one thing I noticed. He's back to "group texting" us. He did this in early days after BD. He would text us after 8 p.m. during his office time at work... all 3 of us. He did this when he had her in the wings and me too, but I didn't know about her yet. I knew something was awful weird...he was compartmentalizing too much. Became too predictable. Well of course he doesn't text me while she's around. This is where I felt like the OW... like " quick, let me get in some talking while it's safe". That's actually comical.
I will try and find those old threads. Even though I don't really feel XH and I could ever establish another marriage, I do like to read about how couples have gone from really bad to rebuidling to thriving as a family and couple. I do know it takes a level of maturity and commitment for two people to do that. It gives me hope that some day I will have a phenomenal marriage, but I just don't think it's going to be with XH. Wish it could be, but he's got too much growing up to do. I'll be collection Social Security by the time that happens.
He did this when he had her in the wings and me too, but I didn't know about her yet. I knew something was awful weird...he was compartmentalizing too much. Became too predictable. Well of course he doesn't text me while she's around. This is where I felt like the OW... like " quick, let me get in some talking while it's safe". That's actually comical.
That is funny because H never calls me when he is with OW. When he does call in her presence he calls "the kids" but not me. Of course when she is not around he talks my ear off and blows up my phone with calls and texts about nothing in particular. Yesterday he called me at work and left a message on my cell letting me know he was picking up D at daycare. So okay, good to know. When I got home he was upset that I didn't call him back. I said you left a message that you were picking D up. Why should I call back?
Frustration!!!
ROFL!!!! omg wishing, hoping. Im sorry that's hilarious. I had to take a trip over a month ago, and as soon as I hit the free way...all our phones start blowing up. Im on the freeway going 80 mph in the rain and he wants to talk about Easter! Well it had to wait 2 hours until I got to my destination.
Ok so Im not insane...LOL! Ok that's what XH does when he's with OW too, or basically at home. He'll text up a storm with the kids when she's around. Me, it's very strict one liners.
Sounds like alot of cake eating you got going on there. I guess when we can get past the devasation for even just a moment their behavior really is comical.
oops... looks like Im on page 11! Time to start a new thread.
I still don't know how to post the link to the next thread.