New Day Rising - DivorceBusting.com

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Hi all

Here's a link to my last thread .

I'll start with saying I'm doing fantastic!! There is much to say about detaching, and it truly is the single most important thing you can do for yourself, provided you truly do it. It's hard at first, but when you get there it's awesome. It lends you an entirely new perspective on your situation. I will also say I am truly happier than I've been in years and am full of optimism, even if the face of potentially losing my job. I feel strong and clear minded.

I haven't engaged with H on a meaningful level in quite some time. There was some minor conversation when he came to some of this things, which included a hug and kiss on the forehead. After that I asked him to please get rid of the phone and satellite...they're in his name and I don't have authority to make changes. A week later when it still wasn't done I emailed him again and he took action. Because there were some details that whould have taken several emails to sort out, I called him. First time I'd dialed his number since he got a cell back in September. He was odd on the phone...no pleasantries at all, I suspect because I'd never called before. We got it all sorted and that was it.

In the 3-4 weeks since then I've heard from his daughter several times to tell me the important things in her life. We don't discuss her dad. Our relationship is good.

So today I'm sitting in the backyard enjoying the absolutely gorgeous hot and sunny day with some friends who were over for a bbq when the phone rang. It was H. I didn't answer.

I had been out for lunch with a different friend yesterday in a small town close to here and the server was the wife of the good friend of H who took our wedding photos. We had a really nice catch up. H's name didn't come up. At the end she said she was amazed at how strong I am and how well I'm doing. I'm sure word of this encounter got back to H....hence the phone call.

So I let the machine pick the call up. Apparently H needs to talk to me about "minor heart surgery. I'm not dying or anything but I might need to have surgery to repair a hole between the right and left atrium. Can you please call me Monday or Tuesday night."

So what is going on here? I know it's not really important WHY he needs to talk to me and trying to figure out what he's thinking is a fool's game. The important thing is HOW do I handle the conversation? My friends advised that I hear him out, wish him well, but tell him I don't play that role anymore. That feels so cruel, but it's true.

Those of you who have read my thread might remember that this has happened before. First it was the stroke clinic. No stroke. Then it was the skin cancer. Don't know how that turned out but I guess nothing. Now a hole in his heart, which appears to be real and not a fantasy of his. You might also remember that his father was sick his entire life...skin cancer, epilepsy, heart disease, kidney disease, kidney transplant, and ultimately died of a brain tumor brought on by anti-rejection drugs. I believe this is significant.

Snodderly, I know you'll have some great advice. I would LOVE to hear from others too as I want to be sure I handle this really, really well. As sD said, it's hard to see someone with so much potential screw up so bad.

GWN,
Return his call Tuesday evening. Listen to what he has to say and then wish him luck on his surgery...nothing more. If he attempts to engage you into small talk about what you are doing or with whom, just cut the conversation short and tell him that you have someone at the door and hangup. The less he knows about what you are doing, the better. Let him stew.

GWN, I assume that he is still with OW. Well, she is there to provide the emotional support that's necessary during this time.

I had a dilemma w/X. He was very very ill and I considered whether to visit him in the hospital. We were divorced and I had started to see someone else. I ultimately decided against it because I felt my presence just would be upsetting and detrimental to his healing. OW had taken off. Guess it got real.

I would agree with what your friends say. Be kind, be sympathetic, but don't keep the conversation going for a long time.

Hi GWN, nice to hear you're doing well. Detachment and GAL really is awesome.

I'm not sure if you should call your WAH back. As the others said, he has OW to see to his emotional and physical needs. However, if you feel you need to call for old times sake, then do so, but keep it short. Wish him luck with his op, and hope he heals quickly.

Well, that's muh thoughts.

Thanks folks

BM, I actually thought about not calling him back but then wonder if this is his way of reaching out. Or maybe it's just the checking-in thing that they do. There hasn't been a lot of animosity between us, so to ignore his request would probably be construed as nasty.

As for OW...I don't know if she's still around or not. H's D says he told her they're finished, but I don't want to assume that's true. Plus, he hasn't said it to me. I say nothing when she mentions this and have no intention of bringing it up with him unless he wants to reconcile. In all honesty I can't see him wanting to be involved in a new relationship with this going on. He's probably almost completely overwhelmed and shut down.

I really have no idea why he feels the need to tell me about this but like so many am playing the guessing game, all the while repeating to myself "I won't get sucked in. I won't get sucked in."

I did read up on atrial septal defect and it's congenital and is repaired, if necessary, with surgery. The mortality rate is zero, but the whole surgery thing sounds pretty intense. I don't know if he knew about this before but didn't bother to tell me or if it's a new discovery. In mild cases there are often no symptoms until adulthood.

I think he's contacting me because he's scared. Apart from the boat loan (and I might still be beneficiary on his investments), our lives are no longer intertwined so there's no reason I need to be told. I certainly wouldn't tell him if I were sick. The only reason I might consider it is to immaturely get a rise out of him or try to get him back via pity. But he is not me....

Or maybe he thinks he's doing me a favour, that I'd be upset if I found out through his daughter. I'd do my research and have friendly concern but my world would not be rocked, that's for sure.

I assume he has somebody to take him to and from the hospital and look after him at home. Maybe his mother, but he's in a one bedroom so I can't imagine anybody staying there with him. I don't know what I'll do if this comes up. I'd be surprised, but if it does I'll defer any decision until I speak to the wise folk here.

I wish I had a script to follow, but I guess that's no good when you don't know how the convo will go. I'm going to be sure to empathize and validate big time (opportunity for a 180...I'm often quite analytical...this is a chance to show him my soft side) and keep the focus on him.

Thanks again! Any and all tips and insights are welcome!

I was having such a great day and feeling so upbeat that I decided to call H this evening rather than wait until tomorrow.

Convo was fine. He told me about the heart situation, the study he's going to participate in as a patient, the possible surgery. I was supportive and understanding and just let him talk. I tried to get off the phone twice and he came up with something else that he needed to tell me about. Then he said "let me know when I can come and get the rest of my things out of your house" or something to that effect. And that was it.

I decided then and there that I can't do this anymore. I am in such a good place now, and when he pops up my head starts to spin. I said "Can I be frank with you?" and told him in a calm voice that I couldn't understand his need to tell me about any of this and that it threw me for a loop. He said it was because he didn't want me finding out from somebody else, to which I replied "there's nobody else I would find out from, our lives have been separate for seven months. We're not together anymore." I said I wouldn't hear it from his D because my relationship with her is separate from him now. He said he really appreciates that.

I told him that every time he does something like this is sets me back and I can't do it anymore. He said he didn't mean to cause me to start thinking about him, to which I replied that i don't think about him, i think about my marriage, and that he needs to leave me alone so that we both can move on.

And with that I am done. I have done the right thing throughout this entire episode and mostly the right things in my marriage, and can no longer bear the pain that comes from his rejection of our life together every time he pops up. I deserve to be loved by someone who is able to truly love and who appreciates all I have to offer.

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to read about my situation and given me much appreciated advice. Just your presence has helped me to get over the hump to where I am. I hope that something in my story or something I have said has been a help to someone here.

Now I must get out of my system what I hope is the last cry I'll have over the loss of my marriage, my hopes and my dreams as they were.

All the best.

Quote:

I told him that every time he does something like this is sets me back and I can't do it anymore. He said he didn't mean to cause me to start thinking about him,

Yup they know how to press your buttons, play with your emotions and abuse your compassion and decency (is he hoovering?)

Quote:

And with that I am done. I have done the right thing throughout this entire episode and mostly the right things in my marriage, and can no longer bear the pain that comes from his rejection of our life together every time he pops up. I deserve to be loved by someone who is able to truly love and who appreciates all I have to offer.

This should be the mantra for all of us, only when we finally accept ourselves and recognize what we have to offer, are we free of this pain. A relationship is a gift, not an entitlement. I hope you find the right person who can appreciate the gift they are given.

I am not sure if you are already done, gone, moved on, but if you read this: Greatwhitenorth, you are a great role model for a lot of people here, have a great life, eh!

GWN,
I am glad that you returned his call because that call gave you the "final" push to tell him just how you feel and that you are done. No matter what happens now or in the future, you have always tried to do the right thing, but until he actually heard what you had to say yesterday, he was going to pull at your heart's strings whenever the notion struck him.

I don't know where you have his "things" stored, but I would make sure that they are sitting outside the day that he comes to pick them up. He no longer has the "free" card to enter where you live and play this was my life. It's too bad you don't have some friends that could deliver his "stuff" to him so that he didn't have to come to your home.

Once your balance has returned, you will be stronger and no what direction you wil follow. You know you are more than welcome to continue posting here. You will need someone to talk to because your story isn't finished just yet. Please come here to post. We are here to support you.

Thanks for chiming in 4MF and Snodderly. I will continue to think on this board.

My plan is to have all of his things in the garage and not be here when he comes over. I don't think he'll do anything nasty, because he's not a nasty MLCer. Once I find someone who is willing to stand guard I'll let him know. It will be April at the earliest because I'm busy this weekend and gone south over the following two. He was supposed to be coming with me this time, but alas, I'll have more sober company who don't swim away from me in the ocean this time around.

When I was talking to my therapist a couple of weeks ago something I said made her suggest that whatever crisis he seems to be in was interrupted previously. It kind of makes sense. Soon after he and i reconciled after a week apart early in our relationship, he grew his hair out. Normally shaves his head. It looked absolutely ridiculous, to the point that his then teenaged daughter said "is this your doing?" I of course took no responsibility. "Just trying something different" was his explanation.

Anyway, yesterday I spent my lunch hour outside. We've had an unseasonally warm week and as a result the river has opened right up and is high. From where I sat I could smell it, and with that painfully missed our boat and the tears set in. When I got home I decided to take a look at the boat(it's still here as my name is on the loan, but really it's his boat so he's making the payments out of a joint account used for that purpose only).

Imagine my surprise to find that vermin of some sort had moved in over winter! It stank like rodent urine something awful. Two life jackets might be finished and the cover for the bimini top is chewed up. These things were in one of the compartments and smelled rank. The life jackets are still outside in the sun and the bimini cover went in the wash.

I pondered emailing him for a couple of hours and then decided it was the right thing to do. I opened the email by saying I hope he understood where I was coming from the night before and that as long as our lives are separate they must be treated as such, and that it's too painful otherwise. I then went straight to the vermin and the boat.

No response. No interest or concern about the state of his 25K investment that he's presently trying to sell. No thank you for taking care of it. Not a peep. Early in the separation he would normally respond within the same day.

This is the same lack of response I got when I initiallly asked him to disconnect the phone/satellite the first time, but that wasn't surprising because it required action on his part.

It makes no sense to me (not sure why I would expect it to) why he can be gung ho to pick up the phone and tell me about his heart and the other random things, but not say a word about his boat. The stench of raccoon (which it probably was) urine certainly can't be good for resale, and we're already looking at a 10k hit as it's only two years old.

It's almost like he's depressed, like he just doesn't care, he's gone completely dark. It also feels very juvenile, like the boyfriend in high school who completely stops talking to you because you've broken up or had a fight.

I've been thinking about his reason for telling me about his heart. He said he didn't think it would be fair for me to find out from someone else. I've been pondering that notion, why would fairness to me matter? It didn't matter when he decided to cheat on me. Somewhere in my heart I think he was reaching out a bit, but that could be this foolish optimism I've adopted in recent months.

Either way...I have a stinky boat in by driveway and sure do miss the water.

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Somewhere in my heart I think he was reaching out a bit, but that could be this foolish optimism I've adopted in recent months.

I think they never let go. My W sent an email apologizing for her behavior, and putting herself down a bit. I sent a reply validating her feelings and reminded her that (even though she has acted out specifically towards me), that she still has some very good qualities. She has not responded.

I think they are very reluctant to cut the strings, they need a safety net. It is possible that only when there is no safety net that they have to finally look at the issues inside?

I am 99% sure that my wife is high functioning Borderline Personality Disorder, Due to childhood abandonment issues her neural networks are wired differently as a survival/coping mechanism, this is a brain disorder. It can be overcome but I feel it will always be there. I am supportive if she needs help and I have empathy but it is not my job to fix her or to let her act out against me anymore.

Throughout our relationship my instincts have put up red flags which I have ignored. My instincts are more accurate and reliable than my conscious decisions. If your instinct tells you he is reaching out he probably is, but can he give you what you want or need in a relationship?

Well, he responded to the email, sort of. But not to the information about the boat.

He simply said his friend was in town and could he call me to come and get his rifle out of the cabinet. That's it. Doesn't seem to care a wink about vermin in the boat.

Every email he sends me these days (not that there's many) opens with "sorry to bother you." Can someone give me some insight as to what is up with that? Drives me nuts.

Thanks 4MF, for your reply. I don't know if H has a diagnosable personality disorder. He certainly is passive aggressive, but that is a behavior not a disorder. He has admitted to stuffing things down and he's clearly a conflict avoider. He's told me absolutely nothing about his past. Big gaping black hole. That's an issue. I used to think his mother was awesome, but now I see that she bought him out of his marriage for $25k to pay off his vehicle. Clearly there's a deep-seated problem there. But diagnosable PD...who knows?

It's interesting that his first marriage twenty years ago lasted only two years. Apparently he came back after about a year saying he made a mistake, but she had borne his child so it's very different.

I've been reading about "mirage men" lately. These men fall "in love" quickly, assume their object's interests and seek approval through their words and actions. As the relationship progresses and they realize there's no common interests they resign themselves to their situation, and then they become resentful that, in their opinion, they have been subsumed by their partner. The punch line in all of this is that the MO behind this is an unwillingness to be their authentic selves and a profound avoidance of true intimacy. Alot of this is my husband, especially the true intimacy part. He said he loved me at week three. Yeah, BS I thought at the time. But I saw the common interests so stuck it out. That's the difference between my marriage and the typical "mirage relationship" - we have many things in common, the true basis of something real.

So annyoing.

So I just got the call from H's friend who wants to pick up his rifle. We had a great chat. He only found out yesterday that H and I are separated.

I asked him if H told him what happened, and he said no, that he simply said "we're not together anymore" and skipped right over it to the next topic of conversation. I did not tell the friend about the affair, but I did say that he just walked out, that I never had a chance. He said it was was "unf'ing believable" and that he's shocked. I told him I was glad to hear that because it's the first time I've heard it from a friend of H's. The person H stayed with initially alluded to this, but I haven't talked to the others at all.

The friend hasn't talked to H is quite a while, but he said that every time they spoke, H said things were great, going really well. H was happy. He said that with me, H really turned things around and had a great life. The friend can't believe H has walked away from everything. I told him I love my husband, but what are you going to do? You have to move forward. We agreed that whatever is going on with H is pretty deep for him to have abandoned his life this way.

I didn't get upset or dwell on anything. We mostly talked about friend's life. I congratulated him on his new work and we talked about his family. I said it was fantastic the way his life has become everything he ever wanted it to be.

Don't know if this conversation will get back to H or not, but I guess it doesn't matter because in essence I am done. I can't remain in a self-imposed limbo.

But I will continue to be the person I want to be and am at my core - loving, strong, supportive, optimistic, generous, independent and very, very happy.

H's friend came by to get his rifle today. He dropped by H's workplace, where he used to work, to get the key to the gun locker. H just came out, handed it to him, said to leave it here, and left. That's it. Friend is still shaking his head. He talked to some of the co-workers but H stayed away.

Friend told me today that when they talked earlier in the week H avoided all questions about the breakup. Just quickly changed the subject.

Friend doesn't understand it, moreso now that he's seen our house. He said that this is everything H said he ever wanted. We wondered whether H is depressed. Who knows.

Anyway, H's friend said next time he and his family are in the area (they have friends near here) they'll pop in to see how I'm doing. This brings me comfort because it confirms my position that H has lost his mind. Not that I want him to lose his mind, but you know what I mean....

GWN,

If your H is having a MLC he is most likely depressed. Did you notice him being depressed or acting differently before ow or BD? Depression permeates all stages of MLC. However, you may see a temporary lifting of it in the beginning of the R with ow. That is due to the 'love' hormones circulating in their brain.

When the MLCer realizes their problems follow them no matter how fast they run or who they're with, the depression is still there.

Until and unless he faces the issues within and deals with them, he will remain in the tunnel.

GWN, I took a break while writing a reply to your above post. I went back to read up on your sitch. I have a question. From how you describe your H when you met, I was wondering if he was in the beginnings of MLC then? Just some of his actions during your courtship and M seem suspect. I know that it doesn't really matter. Just understanding helps me cope and I know there are others like me.

You are doing well. Take care.

Thanks for chiming in, Seeking.

I really do wonder if he was in the beginnings of MLC when we first met, and think he probably was. My therapist even said that it sounds like whatever he's going through was interrupted. I've only seen this person once, so we haven't unwrapped everything yet, but I will share my insight as it comes.

Of course, I only really read up on MLC after the break up so I would have had no idea about it if it fell from the sky and landed on me...which it sort of did! H's wall is very, very thick. He lets nobody in. Even his best friend has said that there's a side of H he doesn't know. They've known each other for more than 20 years.

I believe H is most definitely depressed, and that he probably has been for quite some time. It's almost like as long as there was something to distract him from it he was OK, but as soon as things settled into routine he'd lose it again. Once we moved to the country there was no distraction of buying a house, planning trips, planning a wedding, selling a house, buying a house. It was all about building our life. Even though he had everything he ever talked about wanting, he bolted.

If you read my entire history here, you'll know that there's some pretty deep and complicated stuff going on with H. He's not like a lot of the spouses here who were truly intimate with their spouses at some point. H could never, ever open up...I simply trusted that he was committed, as we all do I suppose, but normally there is a closeness that is tangible and not simply implied.

Seeking, I would love to know which actions you feel are suspect. I'm certain I would agree with you but would love an outside perspective. And I hear you. Understanding helps me cope too. I should go back and read all my posts, but I'm not ready yet. I'm a little scared because I will probably realize it was all a sham.

Should mention that last time I saw H and he, with tears in his eyes, said all he wanted was to be forgiven, he also said that he's dealing with his issues. He believes that they stem from a lack of confidence because of his dyslexia. I said I think they're deeper than that, but he disagreed so I said OK. Wasn't going to have that argument with him.

Maybe that's progress, but there is absolutely no way you make the choices that he has because of lack of confidence. He's holding something back in a major way. I wonder if something happened to him as a child. But I'd never know because he never, ever, ever talked about his past. As I've said before, gaping black hole.

Hi Greatwhitenorth,

A lot of your situation resonates with me.

4 years ago when my W had an affair she told her mother and sister and 2 close friends of hers and that was it. A lot of justification aimed at demeaning me, which did not work with mother and sister as they knew both me, and us as a couple. The close friends who did not know me were used to validate her justifications and provide reinforcement for her actions. A 42 year old mother of two was going to abandon her family (2 sons 12 and 14) to start a new family with a penniless guy 12 years younger in the boondocks of Asia. At the time she wanted the quickest possible divorce and quickly change her religion so she could marry and start her new family. Years after the event she said she did it because she was 'unhappy'. The problem is they shift the blame for their unhappiness on to you the loving innocent spouse. They do not look at the real causes until they have lost everything.

We have now been separated 4 months. I get apologetic emails about her behavior in our marriage. I get emails saying 'would it be too cheeky to ask.....', I get phone calls 'sorry to bother you....'

W is now in counselling and admits she has self-esteem issues, which are understandable, but she was always, superior aloof and condescending towards me in our marriage.

She seems strong enough with other people but with me she seems on the edge of tears.

I now know she has been acting out the effects of her childhood issues and projecting her feelings onto me, in fact making me feel her anger and depression.

The calmness I saw for so many years from someone who liked to give the impression she could deal with anything, and had dealt with everything was very probably false-self hiding some huge issues. Her lack of emotion was just a huge effort in self control, and splitting off of all the toxic stuff from her past.

She rarely talks or talked about her childhood or her childhood friends (of which she appears to have none) so another 'gaping black hole'.

Self-esteem is an issue or my W for sure but it is just the tip of the iceberg in my opinion, in fact I recommend this link for anybody who might want some insight into childhood issues:

http://www.internet-of-the-mind.com/abandonment.htm

I too have a feeling that my W was somehow seriously abused in childhood, just a gut feeling or instinct at the far recesses of my mind!

From the very start of our relationship somewhere in my brain/mind I have had so many instinctual messages saying 'something is not right here'.

Sorry GWN I think I just hijacked your thread!!

Hey GWN and 4myfamily! The l got cut off your link. Here it is:

http://www.internet-of-the-mind.com/abandonment.html

Wow 4 myfamily, this makes perfect sense to me! My W displays almost the exact behaviors you describe, only MIL apparently supports her decision (a person who W has had major problems with in the past).

MIL descibed FIL as someone who worked a lot (farmer) and MIL descirbes herself as a bad Mom frequently, something that W has feared she would become when D1 was born.

W also has started messages to me as "sorry to bother you".. etc. and is nice if she gets what she wants, otherwise is downright mean and tries to make me out to be the bad guy if I stand up for myself or execrise any kind of self respecting behavior.

W also eluded to possibly some sexual abuse in the past, but can't remember what it is/what happened. I was very supportive of this when we were together.

I look at my own faults of not setting better boundaries and letting her walk all over me and I did not share my true feelings when i felt taken advantage of for fear of losing her.

The iceberg analogy is very true and I see this a lot in my profession. I just never wanted to compare W to it, but we all go through some sort of it.

I am trying to be calm, cool, and fair through out this ordeal, but am now seeing when W wants an inch, she will take a mile.

I am afraid of looking like the bad guy so i let her.

I guess my fear of assertiveness is something I need to explore.

Hi All

Just back from a fantastic week on a beach with a couple of friends and family. The star of the show was my two year old neice. Everybody loved her and she was an awesome traveller. She lives about 600k from me so spending a week with her was a real treat. We went to a resort that H and I used to go to, which was easier than I thought it would be. People asked about him, and I simply said we're separated and that was it. Good time all in all!

So just now I was going through the phone (numbers are programed) to call my parents and for whatever reason ended up calling H. He picked up and I said "who's this?" because it didn't sound like my dad. It was kind of funny...on my end anyway. He's on his way home from the funeral of his uncle.

We chatted for a few minutes. All very civil as usual. I decided to take a DB 180 risk (for me...I've been pitch black) and ask him if he wanted to stop in for a coffee since he's driving right by. After a pause he said "yes, I would actually." He'll be here in a couple of hours.

I read a quote my sister has on her website. Love it, and it's great words to live by: "Be weird. Be random. Be who you are. Because you never know who would love the person you hide."

H and others who live inside brick walls, so to speak, could learn a lot from that.

No expectations, but wish me luck, everybody.

Happy Easter!!

Happy Easter!

I'm very happy to read that you had a wonderful time on your vacation. It sounds like it did you a world of good.

Good luck w/your meeting w/your h. I think the call really did catch him off guard and who knows...it just might open the door for a nice conversation.

The quote that your sister has on her website is one that we all should read and apply to ourselves.

Enjoy your day and no matter what he says or does...you are going to be just fine!

Thanks, Snodderly. You're right...I'll be just fine!

H just left. He was here for just over an hour. We had a really nice, relaxed visit. Laughed a bit. Had coffee on the back deck. It's beautiful out here now, and it was quite obvious that he misses it.

I answered his questions (he asked quite a lot for him) but didn't offer up anything else except to say (at an appropriate time) that this whole thing has changed me to the core. He didn't understand what I meant, so I explained that I'm changed permanently, that I let things go now, that I don't get stressed over things I can't control.

He had his arms tight across his chest for a lot of the visit, until I pointed it out to him. He took it lightly, chuckled a little, and unfolded them, understanding what his body language was saying.

He says he's OK, apart from bronchitis and mourning his uncle, but I don't buy it for a second. He looked to me like he was about to cry at times. I wonder if he's finally seeing how much he threw away, that I'm not the terrible person he convinced himself I am.

We looked at the boat, and the damage appears to be mouse-related and superficial. He looked longingly (or so it seemed) at me like he missed "us" when we were doing this. At one point when he passed behind me he put both hands on my waist. After we finished up and were walking into the house he stopped, turned around and said "can I have a hug from you please". He got one.

Then he gathered up his hunting gear and talked about when he can come and get the rest of his things to "get them out of your hair". I bit my tongue on that one and just said OK, but we couldn't come up with a weekend that works. He's going to email this week.

When he left he said thank you for the visit, that he hopes it won't mess me up, and that he's glad I'm looking so good. I wanted to tell him that this visit makes it clear our marriage is worth saving, that he can change his mind, that people can forgive him, but am leaving it up to him to get there on his own. He asked for another hug and got it. Both times were long embraces.

Anyway...I'm still doing great! This visit didn't rock my foundation. I'm seeing some family and friends today for Easter dinner but won't mention it to them. Or to anyone but the good folks on this board. One of the friends I'm seein today is/was his fishing buddy. H asked about him for the first time since the split, but I won't tell the friend. I wanted to suggest that H contact him, but decided to not tell him what to do.

So there it is. I'll file this one under "it is what it is". I really, really want him to come to his senses before the boat sells because once it's gone, I'm reallydone. Not the pretend done that I've been in the past

.

The reason for this is that I'm co-signer on the loan and it will cost us $10k to sell (owing more than we can sell for). He knows I've been paying off my student loans to the tune of $550 a month for the past 12 years and have 2 more to go so to slam me with more debt will be complete disregard that I can't abide.

Anyway, it was a great visit that I hope drills deep into his mind. And now I fade to dark gray this time, but will open the door should he knock.

Glad it went well with the visit, GWN. Lot's of interesting gestures made by him.

Sounds like the meeting went well. I don't think he will come to his senses before the boat sells. He's got alot of internal work to do yet. (I hope that I am wrong on this, for your sake.)

Keep focusing on you and what you need to do to keep yourself balanced, healthy and happy.

Thanks for the feedback BeingMe and Snodderly. Means a lot that you check in. With regards to the boat selling, we're facing major job cuts here (in the tens of thousands) so there's not a lot of people in the mood to spend 18k on a boat, but only time will tell.

I've been thinking about my time with H on Sunday, the questions he asked....a lot of things about the house (the insulation, the sump pump, the pool and connecting the pump...these were all things I was left to do immediately at BD), about my plans should I lose my job (I told him I might sell the house and move to another city or province, which is true and not just posturing), if I was going to go south this spring (which we'd been planning the week before BD. I guess he couldn't see my tan!).

Something particularly interesting was that he said he's going to start bringing his clients (adults with developmental disabilities) to the farm next door again in a couple of weeks. He used to do this weekly but hasn't as much as talked to the owner since BD last September. The neighbour has been a great help to me so I'm not sure how H will be received over there, but I guess time will tell. I presume he'll get in touch rather than just show up. It won't be easy that's for sure.

He seemed to be interested in our life, but I'm trying to not over analyze. I still haven't gotten the email about picking up his rifles this week or the rest of his things later on. It all makes me wonder if he's starting to reconnect with the life he walked away from. I would LOVE to hear your thoughts on that.

I got home today to a bunch of mail for him...his tax assessment, something from the hospital, something from his pension plan. I have his cell bill from last week and a couple of other things that I forgot to give him on Sunday.

The fact that he hasn't changed his address suggests to me that he hasn't detached from me, our marriage or our home. Perhaps I'm over anlyzing....it could also be that he's lazy. I only tolerate the secretarial function because I want him to come home, but don't want to be filling myself with false hope.

One question is, how do I handle what could well be a sensitive, make or break place we are at?

Other question is, what do I do with this stuff now? Should I just stay the course, put his mail in the post and leave things alone? Should I wait until I hear from him about his rifles and getting the rest of his things? Or should I push the envelope and tell him he needs to change his address?

All advice welcome and appreciated!

Thanks, folks!

GWN,

Just go to the Post Office and ask for a change of address card. Bundle up his mail with the COA card in there. You won't have to say a word, but the message will be loud and clear.

As long as the ow is present, he's still in replay. He's got quite a ways to go yet. His peeks out of the tunnel are just moments of clarity. They are when he remembers his life with you, but he can turn on a dime and dart back into the tunnel.

Keep doing what you are doing. You're handling it well. At this point in time there is little you could do to make or break anything. MLC has to run its course.

Hope is yours. No one can take that away. Just keep your expectations low or at zero to protect your heart.

Thanks for the feedback, Seeking. You're probably right.

This new behaviour pretty much mirrors what Snodderly described in an old post (2003, I think) about reconnection, so I got hopeful. She did point out that the process takes quite a long time though.

H hasn't called about his hunting gear yet and the week is almost over. I haven't dealt with his mail yet...other things on my mind.

Not only was yesterday my anniversary, I also received notice that I have to find a new job. The timing couldn't have been much worse. I'm lucky in that the severence is good and I have some time, but the bad thing is that if I don't end up with the same salary I'll have to look at selling my house.

I fear for my mental health should this occur. Three major life changes in the course of a year is too many. Not to mention the absence of someone to hold you, tell you it will be OK, and work through it with you.

I'm sorry to hear about your employment situation. You may want to give serious thought to renting out a room to a college student. You can either advertise for a roommate or go through a realtor (screening would be better). Don't plan too far ahead because you just never know what is around the corner and who knows...you just might find a good position elsewhere.

I wouldn't worry too much about him not calling to schedule the pick up of his hunting gear...when the notion strikes him, he'll call. Right now, his focus may be on something else entirely.

Your focus has to be on you for the time being....

Thanks for your concern, Snodderly. I'm trying to stay positive and put a plan in place. There's a college close by so you're right...I can get a roommate if need be. A couple of students there board their horses just down the road so it's something that could work out. I've lived on my own (apart from the 3.5 years with H) for 12 years so it would be an adjustment to live with a roommate again, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do, as they say.

I finally heard from H this evening about picking up "a few more things". I laughed out loud when he proposed Saturday night! Seriously! Um, I have plans buddy, sorry. I'm only going to my cousin's to catch up, but he doesn't have to know that. He also suggested Sunday afternoon, which might work if he's quick but I have plans then too. Gotta love being busy!

It's funny...he's always said I need to let him know by Monday about a weekend pick up. I guess he thinks I'm sitting home staring at the walls, although I've told him I'm seldom home on the weekends. At least he's polite and not mean.

Part of me wishes I knew if the homewrecker was still in the picture. I'm not asking him, that's for sure. H's daughter told me a couple of months ago that he's not seeing her anymore, but I wasn't going to have that conversation with her at all or with him unless he brought up our marriage. At the moment, though, if I knew one way or the other it would probably hurt my focus and destabilize me. And it's also possible he's taken up with someone else.

Whatever....it's out of my head as quickly as it pops in. I have much bigger things to think about these days.

i fell into the pit of despair again earlier today. not for anything specific that happened, it's just all too much. for the past two days i've felt like i'm carrying around 100 lbs of sand on my back. i don't know if i have any strength left.

h was here with his friend earlier and took all his hunting gear, some camping things and some random crap from the basement. the three of us talked about me needing to find a new job and some of the challenges with that. when friend went downstairs h asked if he could hug me but i said i didn't think it was a good idea. he can't be my consoler and not be in my life (i didn't tell him that part).

i'd been making homemade pita (first time...worked out pretty good but they were a little crispy) and both h and friend were commenting on how good it smelled. when he asked again how it turned out as he was leaving, i asked him if he wanted some. he said he'd like to try it so i gave him a pack with six pieces in it. he took it gladly, unlike earlier in the year when he refused to take some of the bread i baked.

his friend was out in the truck but h kept hanging around mostly just looking at me. then asking me if i'd talked to his daughter, telling me things about her life that i already knew, updated me on her exams. he asked me about whether we'd bottled the wine i'd mentioned last weekend. he told me a musician we both like is playing later this month at a venue we used to go to out here. clearly/oddly he still gets their emails. i just nodded and wasn't sure what to say so just said "oh yeah". he told me he plans to go turkey hunting soon and asked me if i wanted a turkey leg if he gets one. i said i'd take a whole turkey but not a leg. he said he'll try and get two.

when we were wrapping up he said "i'll leave you alone for a while" and then proceeded to tell me about his travel plans with his D next week for funeral related stuff.

it's like he digs through his mind for every single thing he can think of that he knows i'm interested in so that he has something to tell me or ask me. no, it's not "like" that at all. it IS that....that's what he does. but then he continues to move his stuff out. as his presence in this house disappears i feel that he is truly gone from my life, that there is no hope.

as weird as it sounds, i wish our encounters were hostile or awkward or something else negative because it would be easier to take than this. how can we be so comfortable with each other, he so interested in my life, offering up about his (to an extent) yet not want to be with me?

when he finally made his way to leave through the garage he hung around there too. he turned to face me in the doorway behind him and just stood there like he was waiting for me to say something. after a minute or so i said i was just going to close the garage door so he said "oh yeah, don't close it until i'm outside" and left. the tone of the whole encounter was, as usual and especially given my stress levels, perfectly cordial.

what does he want from me? am i giving him the impression that i want to or can be his friend? because i can't, but i don't know how to handle the situation without pushing him further away.

i feel like just saying "h, we aren't friends. i can't be friends with you" but my sense is that it would be a mistake.

i can forget about him saying what's on his mind. he is a man who does not communicate about real issues at all...avoid, avoid, avoid is his mantra.

this job loss thing has made me feel so alone. intellectually i know i have time to find something new that pays enough for me to keep my house, that i'll probably be ok. but emotionally it's just another whack, and my mind jumps right to feeling incredibly alone and just wanting the pain to end. right now every day feels like death by 1000 cuts.

he said he hopes the job search works out, and i said there's no other choice because i can't lose my house this year too. the expression on his face suggested that he realized then and there the weight of things for me.

please, someone, i need insight as to what he's doing with his questions and comments and long goodbyes.

GWN,
I'm glad the "visit" went well and he was able to get his "stuff".

As for his questions, etc., it sounds to me like he felt very comfortable being in your presence today. His making small talk was to show you that he is moving on w/his life and he wanted you to know that he's staying busy and in touch w/his daughter.

My first thought was that he wanted to put on the "good guy" mask in front of his friend so that his friend can tell people that the two of you are friends and you have accepted the split. But the more I thought about it, it could be that he 1)thinks that if he remains friendly, you will be easier to manipulate down the road on other issues concerning the divorce; or 2)still wants to have a toe in both ponds, just in case his new life doesn't work out, he can still have you waiting in the wings. It's hard to tell w/these mlcers exactly what is their MO.

I do know this, the less you question or ruffle their feathers, the less you will see the spew and anger when they are around Right now, your h got what he wanted and he was a happy camper.

One little piece of advice, the next time you are baking when he comes over, don't offer him anything...let him go home thinking about the aroma and what he could have had to eat if he had been living at home.

BTW, I think he wants a friendship w/you, but on his terms. I also think that you were far better off w/him being cordial, etc., than an angry man. You do not want that kind of behavior going on in front of witness because there is no guarantee that you could have kept it together like you did today. I'm very proud w/the way you handled the situation.

Thanks, Snodderly. And thanks for being proud of me.

He was definitely comfortable today, just as he was last weekend. He actually walked around the house like he still lives here, very comfortably. Except for knocking on the door every time he came in. And he made the same kind of small talk as he did last Sunday, almost all of it about our life together. This is the thing that gets me...he brings up all the things we had or did together, but now they're separate.

He definitely is making a point regarding his daughter. He wants me to know that he has a good relationship with her now. It was volatile for a long time and from the sounds of things has never been as good as it is now, and it's because of me...I made sure she didn't hate him and that she could view him with compassion. I'm sure he knows it too.

I said to him at one point that hopefully doing the right thing will pay off for me sometime because it's been a bit of a tough run. It was on the tip of my tongue to say that I won't contest a divorce, but neither will I pay for or participate in the process.

I don't think he was putting a good guy mask because he is the same any time he's here. The divorce issues are settled...the separation agreement is also the divorce document. He'd have to go to court to open it and he won't.

I want it to be a toe in both ponds...that he still sees something appealing about our life together and that he'll come back to it. I don't know if the homewrecker is still in the picture and part of me wishes i could find out but then the other part says what's the point.

I learned early on to not ask questions and I haven't and won't. As much as it hurts, I know his current life is none of my business. Probably for that reason there's been no spew since we got the separation agreement settled before Christmas.

I'll take your advice about the baking.

You're probably right about him wanting a friendship on his terms. But he can't have that. And I can't have what I want either, which is my marriage restored. My sister was near tears yesterday when she told me she's always hoped he would come home. People still love him.

My heart is breaking again, but it probably wouldn't if there were spew and conflict and hostility. I'd have been long gone by now if things were bad.

GWN,
We don't know what the future holds for any of us and who knows...he may come home at some point. We just don't know.

The small talk and bringing up things that you did is his way of "reliving" the "old" life and he will revisit that life quite often in the days ahead as he travels through space. In his mind, he is still trying to find a jusitification/reason for why he left and the way he feels about you right now. Unfortunately, there isn't a justification for his behavior except that he is unhappy w/himself.

Time will tell as to what happens next w/him. Give him plenty of space and do not contact him unless it is an emergency.

Just breathe a sign of relief that the day is over and look to tomorrow for new adventures. I am very happy that he behaved himself.

GWN and Snodderly,

I've been reading these recent posts. It hits home with me in regards to actions with my XH and many questions and feelings I have about it all too. I appreciate your insights Snodderly, you're so right on all the time. You are a living dictionary or Thesaurus on MLC. Bring something up, and you've got a good darn answer!

It's good to know that the small talk about things we did in our marriages are the MLCers way of reliving the old life and that they revisit it often. I never could understand how my Xh's memory was like a steel trap after he left, yet while here he couldn't think his way out of paper bag. Just tonight he recalled everything that's in the spare bathroom....and he's been gone a year!

I agree that they want us to be friends with them on their terms and that they keep us at reach just enough incase their "new life" or "OW" doesn't work out. I also think that because we suck it up and act "as if" and carry ourselves with dignity and handle the sitch with grace (even though we're dying inside) that it gives them the message that what they're doing is ok. I've begun to think that by acting as if, and remaining friendly when they approach us that it gives them the idea that it's ok for them to run off and do their MLC thing, yet it's still safe enough to come back and test the waters with us.

Is this part of paving the way home?

Kimmerz,
We walk a fine line w/the mlcer. If you display anger and/or point fingers at them for anything, they will go into the disappearance mode or in some cases, take it out on the spouse and/or children by withholding funds, visitations, etc. They can be nasty little somebodies when they want to be and you do not want to be on the receiving end when they are extremely nasty.

Whether or not you act as if, many of them will test the waters to see where you are throughout the crisis. Acting as if, helps you in the long run because eventually you will begin healing and will one day wake up and realize you don't have to "act" any longer. Acting as if is a way to state that you are doing okay and can manage on your own, it doesn't necessarily state that you are happy w/what they are doing. It's not the get out of jail free card for them, but, what does send the message that you are okay w/what they are doing is when the spouses continue to do things for them, such as pick up the laundry, take care of their bills, continue to cook their meals, i.e., the normal day-to-day things that we all have done throughout our marriages. If you are not doing these, then the message is not there, just my two cents.

Is it a way to pave the way home? Yes, it could be, but there are a lot of factors that will determine this and the major one is whether or not you will still be there w/the door ajar to even consider reconcillation by the time he/she has completed their journey. Of course, your mlcer may opt to not even try to return and will continue on down the merry path.

Time is on your side and you will need to dig deep for patience to assist you in your journey.

Fell into a deep hole on Sunday night/Monday. I actually scared myself. It wasn't because of H, but because of losing my marriage and dreams, losing my job and the prospect of losing my house, all in the span of seven months, and having to face all of this alone. It all was just too much for a time.

So a close friend and colleague of mine who didn't lose her job called the Employee Assistance Program to try and find a way to support me. She coaxed me into going with her.

I don't think she got what she was looking for, but the therapist we saw is a social worker who is pro-marriage and familiar with MWD! I didn't even raise wanting to save my marriage, but I guess she read between the lines. Unfortunately she hasn't read the books, (She asked if I could get H to come into counselling. I said no, because it's no good until they're ready.), but fortunately she appears to have the right attitude (she agreed).

So I'm going to have some sessions with her to put all the stuff going on in my life into perspective, and to get some support for my efforts to save my marriage. I do question whether it's worth standing, given how incapable he is of communicating, trusting and being vulnerable, and how little I knew of him as a result.

I believe from the way he looked at me and behaved last two times I saw him that he still loves me, and from the way he's been talking that he's thinking back on his life with me, sort of on where he's supposed to be...meaning here. That said, I am going to continue doing what I'm doing and give him all the space in the world, continuing on as if he's not coming home.

Good idea to continue on as if he's not coming home. Who knows what he's thinking? Also, glad you're attending counseling sessions. I've been looking for one in our area, just to help me with the end coming up soon.

Throwing positive spears your way.

GWN,
I'm glad to hear that your friend was able to assist you and you are now meeting w/someone. It doesn't hurt to have someone listen and help you through the maze.

Keep the door ajar, but continue moving on "as if" he may not return. Always keep your expectations at zero.

Not long after H moved out I put away our wedding photos, but hung onto them in the hopes that he'd be back. Today I removed them from their frames, wrote a letter to H on the backs of them, and then burned them as a ritual way of letting go. I read them aloud before burning them, sobbing through it all.

I said in the letter that I love him today as I've always loved him. That I've been true to my marriage and my vows. That I'd do anything to save my marriage. I also apologized for anything I ever did to hurt him.

But I also said that I know now that I no longer have a place in H's life or in stepD's life and I have to let it go, that keeping in touch is nothing more than a way of trying to keep my marriage alive. It is self imposed pain.

I also said in my letter that he's hurt me so much, that I'd never, ever have moved to the country alone and now that is where I find myself. An imposed isolation, solitary confinement. That words can't begin to describe the pain, that I've found nothing so far to fill the hole in my heart.

I don't know what tomorrow will bring. Life is one hour at a time right now. I keep believing that if I continue to do the right thing I will be somehow rewarded. It hasn't worked out that way yet. Not in this case or at work, at any rate. I am tired, and tired of reaching out.

I think the letter writing and burning ritual will be good for me. I just wish someone were here with me to get all of H's and stepD's things into the garage so they can take them away ASAP. I can't keep deluding myself.

Dear Great White North,

Please just remember that right now things seem awful and hopeless. Things will get better.

I am also struggling with getting the physical things done that I need to do to make my world right and mine again. I sort of divided up my house, his areas, my areas.

I work on a little bit at a time, maybe pick one room a day to work on, not look at the whole house. I actually have picked my bathroom, or the laundry room as the room to work on. (Small rooms, easier!)

I hope things get better at work and at home for you. I hope you find some nice people to be in your life and support you as friends do!

Aloha,

Wendy

GWN,

Are you seeing a C to get some help? IMHO that action was pretty drastic. You could have just boxed the photos up and stored them away. Regardless of how he seems now you did have happy memories together and they were real.

Thanks Bond and Wendy.

Yes, I'm talking to a C now. I think I'm going through a major depressive episode. People are extremely worried about me, to say the least. I'm getting a new doctor but not until the end of May, and will ask her to give me something to stabilize my mood.

The problem is that whenever I see the C I'm able to talk clearly and with insight about what's going on. Intellectually I have a great grip on things, it's the emotional side that's hard, and that's come to a head with the info on the job.

When I fall into despair I fall really, really hard and it feels like nothing is ever going to get better and I am little more than a fool for thinking I matter at all - to H, his D, my work - and that talking to friends and family about it is little more than a burden that affects them negatively.

I ended up going over to the farm/rescue next door with some dry cat food that mine refuses to eat. They insisted I stay for dinner, drink some wine and get in the hot tub. I ended up coming home fairly late and a little tipsy. It was nice and I appreciate that they're looking out for me.

The neighbour confirmed that he did hear from H about starting to bring his clients (mentally challenged adults) there again for community outreach / recreation. As neighbour's wife said "why here? There's lots of other places he can go." I just agreed with that and said it's between them.

I can't imagine how that's going to go. Neighbour is a bit rough around the edges and tends to speak his mind. He knows how hurt I've been and where I stand with regard to my marriage. H can't lie to him and say we agreed to split up, as he appears to have done with others. Would love to be a fly on the barn wall.

Dear GWN,

I have not looked at the DB forums for a while because I feel I have finally achieved some clarity with my own situation.

GWN I am saddened to read that your situation has caught up with you in the way that it has or had. It is amazing that total strangers can have such compassion for each other, as demonstrated here on DB. I find that well of empathy to be heart warming. I have found even total strangers display more empathy than my W ever did. Friends simply do not treat each other the way our ex's have treated us.

In my case I know that the person I loved and pursued, built a life around and planned a future with never existed. I know I was used as a means of filling a very deep void. I now realise that my W never loved me, in the normal sense, and is incapable of forming a normal emotional attachment to anyone, even her children.

Love is a decision we make and there are a great many people out there that we could choose to love. We need to learn the lessons and choose carefully. Most importantly we must love ourselves accepting who we are.

GWN you seem like the sort of person many people would be pleased to be in a relationship with. The fact that your H has behaved the way he has is no reflection on you. This his personality disorder, normal people do not act this way. Period. Normal people react the way you have.

It is a while since you posted so I truly hope you are feeling better about life. Letting go of dreams is hard, time for some new ones?

Life is good you will come through this!! Good luck!!

Hi 4mf. Thanks for checking in.

You're right - it's amazing that total strangers can have such compassion for each other. It's what gets us through the night, so to speak.

My H, too, is incapable of normal emotional attachments. I know this not only from his leaving but also from what his D tells me and what I've seen of their relationship, his compartmentalization, etc. But I do think he wants to on some level. He's just scared. H will honestly do anything for anyone and misinterprets this as closeness. He doesn't understand that closeness entails giving of himself, letting guards down, showing people who he is on the inside. The good friends illusion is sustained because he makes them about what he can do for the other person. Everybody loves him and he's safe.

I also agree that love is a decision and we choose whom we love. The thing that's changed for me is that although I will love someone unconditionally, I will not be with them unconditionally. The person I next find myself with will have to show up in the relationship, he will have to trust me with his heart, be open and honest, not hide from me or shut me out.

Not sure if you read that I am also facing lay off at work. It was the catalyst for the depressive episode. The severance package is very generous and I have a different perspective on things. In this situation, as in that with H, I have to be PATIENT. I am not a patient person. A good friend says I'm always 30 seconds ahead of everybody else. To my benefit or detriment it seems. I'm now thinking about a second career. My director told me today that when I talk about my ideas it's like a light goes on inside, and when I talk about work it goes right off again.

I want that light to stay on forever but leaving the security of my job is going to be really, really hard.

Thank you for saying I seem like the sort of person many people would be pleased to be in a relationship with. It means a lot to hear that because I internalize so much of what's happened, both at work and in my marriage. My personality is such that I take responsibility and ownership, even when it is very hard to do. I know in my head and my heart that there's nothing I could have done to prevent the train wreck that my marriage turned out to be but I also ask, what if I had done something differently. That said, I don't spend much time there these days.

After you boil it all down, fact of the matter is a walk away spouse simply isn't as committed to the marriage as you are. Plain and simple. And you can't make them be.

I'm glad you have some clarity, 4mf, and a great outlook. I hope you're right and that I'll come through this.

Thanks again for checking in. Means a lot.

My W tends to see every thing in black and white people are either in one moment all good or all bad. With other people she is charming and seems the nicest person on earth, and that how I saw her as well when we first got together. However I now see that that person is totally manufactured and she is quite capable of doing anything to fill her emotional void no matter if it hurts those closest to her. To everyone else she is very concerned that to the truth about her actions is kept under wraps. The truth would spoil the illusion.

I have been guilty at times of being over-helpful and a people pleaser myself, and that level of helpfulness is also a controlling behavior, so not anymore!

I am not sure about unconditional love (except for my sons), a relationship is a two way street.
We all have needs and if someone is unwilling to meet our requests for meeting those needs then that is, in my experience, a lonely place to be. One exercise I found very useful is just to write on flash cards what your needs and wishes are in a relationship. Write out a card as each thought comes to you. You would be amazed how many compromises you have made, and how much you have given up over the years.

Obviously a lay off is a negative but a generous severance package is a big positive. Personally I find change exciting and I have always loved a road trip...and sometimes living life a bit more on the edge, not so secure, can make you feel more alive. Might be primal: looking out for the predators?

When I was fairly desperate to save my marriage it was my 18 year old son, who sees things from a slightly different perspective as he has a different relationship with his mother (he loves her but...) who gave me some words of wisdom: 'Dad nothing lasts forever..... let it go...it's over' Its a law of the universe nothing does last forever, maybe we need to learn to accept change as normal and not fight it. Once I accepted it was over and I stopped living in hope, optimism returned.

We all suffer from Fear, Obligation and Guilt in these relationships. Have you seen http://outofthefog.net ?
None of this is in the slightest way your fault. You have no control over anything except your own thoughts and actions. Our ex's make their own decisions, whether consciously or sub-consciously. They alone are responsible, there is not one thing you could have done to change a damn thing he said or did. He has been programmed since childhood to do this at some point in his life.

GWN I took great strength from your early posts, what I interpreted as your independence and no nonsense practicality. I think we all learn a lot about ourselves, life and relationships from these experiences. Hopefully that wisdom leads to better choices in the future.

Although it is presumptuous , I really do have a strong feeling you will come through all of this to a much better times.

4MF