New thread time as I hit the magic number. Here's the last page of the old thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2202927&page=11Not really much to report other than that I just did my taxes and saw what I spent in cat care over the past year, and I really should have asked for some sort of payoff or ongoing "pet support" but didn't, c'est la vie....I work extra hours but it's all paying for the meows and I can't afford a vacation of any type...boo hoo :-)
Ok pity party over...anyway, no contact with XH and that's the way I like it. I am happy an awful lot, and not in his drama. I don't know much if anything about his life other than that he's back to hating his job and trying to pretend that he's not about to turn 45 and looks a lot older than he used to :-)
Hit submit before I was done!
Ok my only real issue now is dealing with my best friend who I've written about before, who is still having this EA with a coworker. I had said months ago that I didn't want to be hearing about this as I made my opinion known and she wasn't hearing me. Well as the months have crept on, and as I've been more or less "over" the demise of my marriage, she has seen fit to start introducing info about her meetings with this guy to me again. Case in point, the other day she was supposed to have dinner with the guy at some Italian restaurant where their kiss and "I love you" had taken place 6 years ago (and she was married then to the guy she's married to now) and at the last minute he called it off as he had some repair guy coming to work on his apt., and he asked if she wanted to reschedule or have drinks at his apt....she picked the apt. and then spent hours with him having drinks and food and such, and then said on her way home, she just cried her eyes out and didn't know what that "meant."
I mean, I try very hard to help her see that her relationship with herself is just awful. She has zero self-esteem, her health is worse by the year, but she does nothing to try to fix anything. She drinks too much. She hides things constantly from everyone in her life BUT for me. She is not attracted to her husband and claims she never has been. She is only attracted to this coworker, a twice-divorced man who is a bit of a trainwreck but I guess to her a sexy trainwreck, and she just PINES for him. She keeps saying to me she wonders why he doesn't make a move on her because years ago he did, and she was married then too.
She is not able to see that happiness comes from inside yourself first and she is desperate for his attention. No matter what I say about consequences to her spouse if this continues, or the wrongness of it, or whatever, she does nothing but stay put, in this weird world where she refuses to admit that what she's doing is having an affair of the emotional sort. I mean, the night she went to the guy's apt. she claimed she wouldn't tell her spouse as "he might be angry he wasn't invited." Another lie.
So what I did was to say I loved her and hoped she would find her way but that I cannot be part of this anymore. I can't be the person who gets told the sordid details of what goes on in her head or for real. I am FRIENDS with her spouse. I feel like I am betraying him.
She is not happy with me. But what can I do. I feel like there are people in life who can't seem to be moral--and they want to use other people because it's easier than actually facing themselves. And just like my XH, this woman can't be helped by me. In fact, the more I try to help, the more she seems to defend what she is doing. So I'm walking away from her.
I feel like my life has come down to this. I meet many people, and I end up having to weed out who is selfish and hurts others for their own gain vs. who is genuinely good and caring and empathetic, and the ones who aren't empathetic I just have to detach from. Because my instinct is to try to TEACH them empathy or model it for them, and in every case, I fail. I can't model it. They just turn a blind eye.
Antonia,
I feel like there are people in life who can't seem to be moral--and they want to use other people because it's easier than actually facing themselves. And just like my XH, this woman can't be helped by me. In fact, the more I try to help, the more she seems to defend what she is doing.
This is what I see my ex doing exactly. The funny thing is she knows she is making mistake after mistake and they just can’t seem to stop. My ex even had the nerve to tell me that she knows we should put our family back together, how much she misses and loves me and the next day she starts dating another guy. I got tired of the lies and I have learned that no matter what they say, they just can’t seem to do anything against their thoughts. My ex was good and said all the right things to make me think she was really trying to do the work to fix her issues. The best thing for me was to remove myself from the drama. When they finally figure this stuff out, I think they see all the damage and just can’t look at themselves in the mirror. My ex was the most non selfish person that I had ever met now she is the most selfish person on this planet. Even my kids complain about how selfish she is in life.
I have met plenty of divorced women and I see several that seem to be going through this same thing. It’s like an epidemic or something and I just don’t understand how these people can’t see it in themselves. It’s sad that I see it in men and women alike. The need it now thing really disgusts me as I look at society. What they really need is to fix what’s broken inside. Self medicating and OP are never going to fix what’s wrong. It’s sad that most LBS learn this and the WAS just pinball through life.
Cool thread have a nice day.
A few updates: my friend I talked about above is still not really talking to me much. Even though the info about her EA was only a small part of our conversation, it's like she's shut down entirely and is only replying to posts on the alt and not really responding much to emails. Oh well. I know that I did the right thing and she's going to have to live with her own decisions. I cannot fix her. She doesn't want solutions.
Update 2, the guy that I talked about way back in Dec. that I met at an art gallery that I went to at the last minute for a show is now dating me...long story but we got to know one another a bit as friends first and decided as of Friday that we are officially "dating" though not ready to define it as "in a relationship." But we're also not dating other people...anyway the biggest issue for me is trying to get a handle on how ecstatic I am. I know it's the dopamine and I know I'm deeply infatuated and a lot of this is biochemical. Just trying to take it slow and not get carried away as much as I want to, but also trying to embrace living in the moment. It's a tough line to walk.
I will say that I am so glad I waited till XH was pretty well out of my system before something like this. I worried a lot about thinking I'd feel I was betraying XH if I started something with someone and I don't feel that at all, honestly. I feel like I'm in the right place at the right time in my life and I was supposed to meet this guy and have "something" with him.
I don't know anything about XH other than that his posts on the alt show a drastically different person than he ever was and he's still in this weirdly defiant bragging about OW phase and it's nearly 2 years that he's with her and he's still doing it. There are also many indicators that suggest he is not as "masculine" as he used to be. I told a friend I'm predicting a change in his sexual preference in 5 years. I just think this is more evidence of his identity confusion and I simultaneously feel sorry for him and feel I am so much better off without him in my life.
So I'm hoping things go well with new guy. I told him that if someone had really been able to make me believe that 650-odd days after the bomb that I'd be dating someone so wonderful, I'd have been a whole lot less distraught ;-)
Oh yeah: the plus with the new guy is that he is divorced 3 years and seems to have been married to a female version of my XH...we are very open about the past and very committed to keeping the changes we both made in ourselves in any future relationships.
So life is really good and even if new guy doesn't end up being someone long-term, I do know that there are fantastic men out there and that I can be in another relationship, which is HUGE for me to come to that realization :-)
Oh, A, I'm happy for you. Happy that you have realized there are decent men out there, happy that you are out of the mindset that you will always be alone.
It is hard, isn't it, to try not to get too excited?
Here's the thing. Often times, the first person we are with are very different than our exes. That's natural. Been there, done that, right?
Not always, but, sometimes we really should be with someone somewhere in the middle.
You are way smarter now. You know what you don't want.
So, take this real slow. Become good friends. Be honest, open, your wonderful self.
Try not to get ahead of yourself so as not to risk getting hurt or hurting him.
Just enjoy this next part of your journey.
I'd love to see you not look at your xh's facebook. Who cares if he's bragging about the ow or what the heck he is doing? Not you, because you are busy living YOUR life, ya know?
Good on you, A, that you allowed yourself to let someone in.
Hey Brookie, thanks!!
I've really looked at this guy and found that he's not the opposite of my XH at all...he's really nothing like him or the polar opposite...in fact I think the reason I like him is that he reminds me so much of myself, and I'm so awesome, haha!! Our interests are different and in some ways overlapping, our goals and dreams and lifestyle choices in sync, and our approach to trying to improve ourselves post-divorce is very congruent.
I think I feel pretty strongly that if something doens't work it's not going to make me nuts and have terrible self-esteem. I feel like I am reminding myself constantly that I am a great person and if things work well it's just because he and I are both in the same "place" right now and it isn't because I manipulated or seduced him into being with me (because if I did and he wasn't with me I'd blame myself).
I actually don't look at the XH's fb---that's a friend who has looked and occasionally tells me things. I honestly don't care when she does. It just sort of validates what I already know, that I don't know him at all. I pray for him sometimes that he finds his way. But it's like he's a very distant memory now. I have had him blocked for awhile.
I almost told that same friend to leak the news that I was seeing someone to one of her mutual friends with XH. Then I stopped myself. I think the only reason I wanted to do it was because I know on some level that it will hurt him to know I moved on in that way. And so I decided forget it, not his business.
But thanks for posting to me Brookie...nice to have the support. I'm in a really good place (with or without new guy).
Ahhhh.. So nice to hear that Antonia. Glad you don't think all men are evil and out to do harm.
Seriously though, glad you are able to find somebody you can open up to. Reminds me of another friend who, after changing her perspective to be more positive (she's a great lady but had an xh similar to yours), texted me the other day to tell me "it's raining good men. not sure why :)"
I honestly couldn't have been happier for her. I was waiting for that moment for her. When she would look up and see that men are better than what she was dating. Funny story: she actually called me once from the bathroom at a restaraunt where she was trying to get away from her current date. I laughed so hard she barely spoke to me for a few days until we could both laugh at it.
She had a hard time finding good men until she realized it was her perspective. Until she was ready to see the good people.
Good stuff, Antonia. Made my day to see this post!
AJ
AntoniaB!
I have been reading your old threads. Don't know how I got there..... I follow random paths thru here when I am really down.
Anyway, I wanted to tell you that as a child I read every fairy tale book in the library. And those were where I got my lifes instructions. (Maybe that is what is wrong with me....)
Like in one fairy tale there was a little girl who always fed her animals first before she feed her family. That became how I did things. Still do. I was in 4th grade when I read that.
My parents were uninvolved, at best. Funny, I need to read your book. I am not a literary smart gal. I am over-smart under-educated. My BA is in graphic arts. According to my SAT's I should have been an engineer. Oh Well!
YES, I was crying when you asked were we crying yet about your cat, X and the funeral. I will tell a really funny dead cat story to you all someday. Or maybe it will be in the book of my life story that I write to get it out of my system.
I was thinking about the dating thing. Tough world we live in. And a successful match is going to be one where the guy has equal intelligence as you. (I read that somewhere, but really believe it!)
I tried to do some stuff with a meet-up group here locally. One guy in the group chatted with me, and then tried to get me to become his "Activity Partner". Seems his wife is too old to kayak, go to the gym etc. Anyway, I really think he wants something else, so I'm avoiding him.
But what I was trying to get to was the need for the physical touch is strong. And we can sleep with out cats and dogs, but they are not what we need.
My girlfriends get me through a lot. My best friend is facing her double masectomy and she holds my hand a lot. I hug her a lot. She is so scared. When she had the bad panic attack at the beach a few months back I held her standing in the parking lot for about 10 minutes, to get her calm enough to drive her to the hospital.
She was funny, she said: "Don't let me go, I don't care what anyone thinks." Her kids also come up to me and give me hugs. Maybe you should find a touchy feely family to hang out with?
Sorry to backtrack on your current thread. I just want you to know I am learning stuff from all of you. Most importantly to DB all the people in our lives. I do my brother, mother, anyone else who is making unreasonable demands of me and my time, brain space.
Hope you have a wonderful day!
Wendy
Hey Wendy!! Glad to hear from you. I've been only sporadically checking the board so I only just now saw your post above. I'm glad that things I've written down here have helped you.
On the fairy tale stuff I am so glad I read it all and believed in it all because it put me on the path in my research...but I'm also glad I moved beyond the classic stuff and started to read the contemporary which consistently points out the flawed logic or grandiose ideas that we attach to...I mean it's all a part of me...if Disney weren't around I wouldn't have 3/4 of my students, who then really get their eyes opened in class!
I'm still coming to terms with the physicality that I missed when single as it seemed like the one thing that really stood out a lot. Now that I am seeing someone there is a lot of physical contact in my life, which I embrace, but I also think I rely on it too much, some times to the exclusion of (or putting on the backburner) the emotional connection. I have come to think that XH and I were physically connected for the last 5 or more years of our marriage prior to his MLC but I don't think emotionally we were connected anymore.
So I'm working on that.
I'm seeing the guy from the art show for about a month now--and this is really good for me in that because he works a lot of hours and because he has a lot of interests of his own (just like I do) that we are not able to spend an enormous amount of time together. My instinct would be to do that very thing, because that's what my marriage was like. But it's not healthy, ultimately, because I'm still too "new" in my new life to get sucked back into codependency on some level if I am in a rel. with a codependent. I think this is why any time I met guys in the past few year who had any trace of codependency I really ran from them or turned them down if they were interested. Just my instinct to stay away.
This guy is very grounded and not codependent at all, good at coompartmentalizing his work and relaxation time. So basically we work all week and we both are writers on the side, so we do things with our books, and then on the weekend, either Friday or Sat., we get together around dinnertime and spend till the next day at noon together. And he's fully present in that time, not distracted by his other stuff or work (nor am I).
You know it's at the point where I really do, most of the time, wish my XH well (in my own mind as I don't see him). OW has now moved in with him and just like everything else he's done regarding her, he's bragging about it all over FB (I'm not connected to him but have been told this by a friend who is). I don't really care, to be honest. It's his life. I can see that he's repeating the same patterns with this woman as he did with me. For a person who was starting to say at the end that he thought we needed to be more individualized and have our own lives and not be so wrapped up in someone else, well, I've broken (or am breaking) that pattern in my relationship now, and he's right back in the thick of it. Only worse. Not only has he given up all his hobbies/interests to follow OW around and be interested only in what she does, but they work at the same place and now live together. So think about it. 24-7, he's with her. Goodness, he and I at least worked at two different places. It's just not healthy to be joined at the hip to someone 24-7.
I'm sorry he is so codependent and can't see it. I do feel like he is in for a rude awakening some day and I feel badly that he hasn't seemed to have learned a thing from all the mess. But it's not my concern anymore. I just pray for him.
Meanwhile I'm almost finished writing my book...and I have an idea for a 3rd book and new research area...and I'm starting to write some creative pieces (poetry, short fiction, memoir) and just trying to stay grounded and centered and ok with the fact that I don't know where my life is going. But I can say that right now I'm enjoying it immensely for a ton of different reasons.
Bottom line is that my XH's MLC and the divorce was the most tragic and yet single best thing that ever happened to me and if I had to do it over, I'd accept this turn of events again and not fight them so hard...
Hey A, so glad you updated as I have thought of you often.
Whenever I tell someone new to this that they will one day feel as you do if they do the work, they cannot believe it.
I always say I wish I could have learned these lessons in a far easier way, but, boy am I glad I learned them.
You sound great! Good for you in being able to see what your patterns were and trying not to get back into them.
And congrats on your writing.
The world is your oyster. Just enjoy and see where life takes you.
Ok, so I'm back for an epic rant, I guess...
I have spent nearly 3 years "alone." If you count up the time I was single when XH left me time number one, and add it to time number two which extends to now, it's nearly 3 years.
I am smart,kind, funny, entirely financially self-sufficient, take care of a 1 plus acre property on my own, take care of 8 cats on my own (used to be 10, mind you), handle EVERYTHING that comes my way on my own, and on top of that, I still keep my nails and pedicure done; I keep my hair nice; I wear makeup and look nice; and I'm charming and witty to boot. AND I AM NOT CODEPENDENT.
So.
I am single. I don't even find men to DATE.
WTF??? Do you know what everyone, I mean EVERYONE, tells me?? That I am TOO ACCOMPLISHED. TOO SMART. TOO EVERYTHING. That I "scare" men. That I have to "dumb myself down" or have no hope of a dinner out.
(frankly I can buy my own dinner out, but I digress)
Really???
So it has come to this? A woman can be nearly emotionally destroyed by the man she wanted to love the rest of her life. She can nearly commit suicide. More than once. She can spend months in a horrific PTSD limbo where she must talk herself out of doing herself in over him, only to find that when she rises above it all, NO ONE, I mean NO ONE, finds her a worthy mate?? Everyone is paired up already, and those who aren't paired up are just too scared of commitment to "settle" with someone like her?
Seriously, people, there is something really wrong with this picture. I am as "over" XH as I am gonna be. YES he will always be with me on some level, but he's really not in my peripheral vision anymore. I am ready for someone else. For another life. And there are ZERO prospects.
I will be the first to tell you. It doesn't matter how many books I write, how many presentations I give, how many times I get accolades for my "brains." It cuts me to the quick to be totally honest, that I am "alone." I look around me and despite all my numerous "single" accomplishements, which number a ton, I still feel like I have failed, because I can't get one man to want me completely.
It's sad, really. I try so hard to not care, but I do.
And that is my epic honest rant for all of you. I want so much to say that having another person to share things with doesn't matter but I can't bring myself to say it. To me, it does matter. I wish it didn't.
And while my post above says "in a rel. with someone new" it's not the relationship I want, ultimately. It's something, but it's not what I really want, and so I don't know how long it will last.
What I am more concerned with is the fact that I look around me and it seems like 90% of people are paired up and I'm this free agent. And I don't like being a free agent. I look at people in relationships who take it all for granted and I want to shake them and say "do you know how much easier it would be on you when you have to decide to end a pet's life and you have ONE OTHER PERSON TO BE WITH THERE WITH YOU???"
It is all on me. All of it. The decisions, the pressure. The aftermath. All on me. I just feel like I will never ever get used to this. There is so much pressure, being alone.
I'm sorry for the rambling. I'm just sad and troubled.
Hey A...
I can offer this Mars perspective...
I like a chick who has a head on her shoulders... perhaps what I've found is that many of them ladies... well... they can be a little closed... or socially awkward...
A friend of mine is going on dates now after her D, but I think she's putting the horse ahead of the cart... she finds a guy she thinks she wants to be romantic with and focuses solely on him... I suspect she's moving too fast and actually scaring the gusy away...
so I'd recommend... get some guy friends... like really, just going out with the guys if you can...
think of it this way... guys hang with guys... which means... hanging with a few guys means... you'll meet more guys... and maybe a hunky single, smart, independent one who is open to something a little more with a smart chick...
Also, beware of yourself... if you trigger in any way, even small... either towards anger or sadness... it is likely to show up even in the slightest way and guys will pick up on that and might shy away...
Just some thoughts.
KD I know this lady, and she is not socially awkward!!
I am also beautiful and accomplished, Fortunately I like being alone, which frankly is just as well. I have many female friends and some guy friends [other women can be very strange about their husbands having female friends, if you haven't noticed !!]
Like Antonia, and many other attractive intelligent and together (now single) women I have spoken to, it is as if there has been a war on. There is a serious shortage of mature reasonably attractive men who are single and heterosexual. We are not all looking for George Clooney, although . . . . .
And while I take some respoinsibility for frightening them off(!!!) I see the evdience and hear the stories too often to discount them.
We women apparently set our expectations too high, are too demanding, should widen our sights and so on. But if you look at dating websites the unreal demands seem to come from guys. 55 years old wanting to date women of 40 is not uncommon
Age isn't a barrier either way, but if a 50 year old woman said 'looking for guy of 35' she would be told it isn't going to happen!
There is an imbalance here. I accept it, but I do not think it is deniable.
Dear AntoniaB:
I absolutly understand you. I haven't re-entered the dating world, but can see where is is going to be a problem. (And I am older than you....)
I would tell you to come over here to Hawaii and hang out with me. You can come to the gym with me and have your pick of hunky marines. There are some pretty smart, nice guys who I work out with. Several about 10 years too young for me, but looking at retiring soon..... You can retire at 20 years from the military.
Anyway, like I told my sister when she got divorced: "Fish in the right pond." She found a wonderful guy, Reservist, Academy Grad, etc. They were happily married for almost 17 years when he recently passed away.
I do see the world as paired off and am worring about that. And in reality I've been single living as a double for 18 months now. And it is getting old.
I will tell you that as a "larger-than-life" person you just need to find a fellow big personality person. I know that person is out there. I know you will find that person. Heck, you might find that person at your next high school reunion....
Aloha!
Wendy
Kaffe, I do get what you're saying, I do.
But what bugs me is this idea that you relate at the end...the "if you trigger in any way, even small...it is likely to show up...."
This goes back to putting a relationship's success or failure ON THE WOMAN. It basically says that women have this course to go through during which they cannot do this or that but must do this thing and that thing, and IF THEY HIT EVERY MARK, they will get the guy.
I call BS.
I want to know what guy has to be THAT freaking perfect.
I think that the pressure on women is incredible. Just over the top. And you know, I don't even have kids. I think of all those who do, it must be so much harder for them.
This is where I don't get it. I see people ALL around me paired up who seem to have arrived at this point so easily. Who are fighting and being not even near perfect couples, but long-term couples nonetheless. And I think jesus, I can't even get a date??What did they do that I didn't???
I'm at a loss. Some of them, I know, dated people who were married or in committed rel. which I won't do. But still.
YES, Beatrice....I am being hit on by men significantly older than I am who seem to think I need to be financially taken care of.
I take care of myself financially. I find the very idea of "you taking care of me" a turn-off.
I am not submissive and I make enough income. YEAH I struggle sometimes, but it is worth it.
I will never again be in a position where one man can threaten my house of cards.
I have to say that there are at least four single, divorced women that have "caught my eye"... and I'd like to believe that I caught theirs, as well...
Truth is... I'm not worried about them... I'm worried about me...
I think what I'm really saying is, so far the available guys that you lovely ladies might be coming across are either idiots... or gun shy, themselves... for what ever reason...
I found back when I was single (and I'm no chick magnet, but have a great sense of humour to compensate... lol) is that I found more "opportunity" when I hung out lots with my girl friends... because while I wasn't interested in them and them not with me, I became "attractive" by association...
I can't explain it and I know it sounds cliche... but I always found it was easier to end up with someone, when I didn't even realize I was looking...
I get that KD, I really do. The guy I am seeing now, I met by chance, as a friend of a friend. But the same thing happens, he's in this weird "not sure if I want a girlfriend but if I do want one, it's going to be you" land.
I wasn't looking for him, he just happened, but he didn't happen "entirely."
So I am left with ok, date others??? Wait till he gets his head together? Date no one?
But this whole idea of "I wasn't looking when it happened." That TOO smacks of some sort of game to me. Like if we can just get ourselves to that point, it "happens."
When I look at other people, I just don't see all these things going on in their periphery. It seems like the majority of people are hooked up long-term. And none of these machinations ever crossed their minds, let alone "the work" that so many of us do over the months or years, the work that makes us "better" by far to negotiate the inns and outs of a committed relationship. Nope. I talk to women and they are shrill and demanding and codependent as s*it. Not me, though. I never go codependent on a text or email or in person. Because I have a filter that says "stop."
And in the end, I AM THE ONE ALONE.
Yes, I act in accordance with who my true self is. I act like a person who really cares for the other person. My friends are calling me "the zen master of dating/texting." But I am alone. No one gets how chill I am, lol.
It's a lonely spot to be all DBing people ;-)
Yeah, A. Honestly, I don't know if I'm a good person to give dating advice, since my last "date" didn't end up to well and I found myself on these boards... lol...
I get that it seems like a game and I guess in a way, it all IS a game... they call life... so many people posturing, or passively manipulating, or who knows... how does a person really weed through all that?
I've tried to do my best through life to not be part of that, but I guess it's just human nature.
I think if we put a DB spin on this, then do what works and stop doing what isn't.
What kind of guy are you looking for. DO check your bars aren't set higher than you are prepared to "do without". Before I met my stbX my bar was set to "must not have kids from prior". I am happy that I let that bar down, as I now have two beautiful and awesome kids in my life.
I have very clear bars and they include no alcohol or drug abuse (or risk of said).
The ladies I posted about above, two I met in two separate insurance companies (working the counters), two I met at a "spiritual" retreat.
My stbx? I met her at work, but became "involved" with her after having gone out socially with friends for a few drinks and I'd submit alcohol played a part of "opening up to" the idea of getting into a R with her. She wasn't someone I was initially interested in.
I go to coffee shops, I go to book stores... I try to strike up random conversations with people at stores, restaurants, etc...
One day... that might lead to something... but further investigation will be necessary... and I know I'll have to check myself to stay within my personal mores, yet still be open to forming friendships with people as I do some "weeding"...
But I do spend a lot of time with myself, enjoying myself... driving, hiking, whatever... so I'm not really "out there" to begin with. I want some friends... just friends... new friends and old... to break the monotony... and who knows...?
IDK... *shrug*
I go to coffee shops, I go to book stores... I try to strike up random conversations with people at stores, restaurants, etc...
Or hang out on marriage forums......
I go to coffee shops, I go to book stores... I try to strike up random conversations with people at stores, restaurants, etc...
Or hang out on marriage forums......
errrmm... yeah... i do that, too... lol
funny, I didn't find too many available singles, here...
I'm not one of those future planner / list maker type people, so if you can't answer this, I understand A...
But, what do you want in a guy?
And what do you like in a friend?
I feel like I might have posted what I wanted a long time ago but don't remember where that post is. I have a two male friends, one married and one single. I am really comfortable with them and can talk about anything with either one. They are both intelligent, funny, educated, witty guys. They are good listeners and offer good advice/male perspective. The unmarried guy is one I would date if he wanted to date me but he was married to a woman he worked with and that went really bad, and he's been divorced 14 years since, and he just has a thing now about not wanting to date a person he works with. He and I are attracted to one another and flirt but we just don't act on it. He's actually pretty emotionally held back--he listens and all to me, but he rarely offers anything up from himself. He's very guarded.
As for what I want in a guy I'd have a relationship with, intelligence is important, wanting to learn new things intellectually, some sense of spirituality but not dogmatic, (I'm sort of a hybrid with mostly Buddhist practice and one or two remnants of Catholicism), must love cats as they are part of my life, liking dogs is fine as I could accept a dog, no kids or kids grown up, doesn't want more kids as I'm not having them, someone I'm strongly physically attracted to, someone who wants a very active sex life with me, is occasionally romantic, clever/witty sense of humor, someone with his own interests who pursues them regularly, someone with his own friends or at least closeness with family so that we aren't the only person in the world for each other all the time, someone who is passionate about something, whether it's a job or hobby or whatever, as long as it's some sort of productive thing to be passionate about (as in, don't want someone who plays 18 hours a day of video games).
Lastly? Emotionally available and open and not making me have to be a mind-reader or hiding his feelings from me.
That's an awful lot of qualities. The guy I have been seeing is all those things but the last one. So I have compromised on the last point because everything else with him feels so "right", but in the past 24 hours we got into a confrontation on the whole issue of his emotional availability and the relationship may not survive the confrontation. We are in our separate corners now trying to figure ourselves out.
So I'm pretty much single.
In response to your other post, I have lots of women friends but very few male friends, and this stems from the fact that every single man I meet is married. Whether it is at the two restaurants I frequent, where I meet a lot of people, or meditation group, or work, or wherever, everyone is married. My close married male friend is my friend "at the office." He and I can't hang out or do things socially, really. I like his wife and daughters and once in awhile I will get invited to things and I go, but he isn't really able to do things with me socially. He's too busy. Plus their best couple friends include a woman who is my former student who is really quite hateful towards me for a bunch of reasons...and she is the type who would suggest he and I were doing something wrong if he and I hung out alone--just to stir the pot, she'd do that. I don't get invited to things because she is there. Her husband is a work colleague but same thing...he and I can't be close because of her.
Women don't trust their husbands around a newly divorced woman with no kids, it seems. Or they don't trust the woman.
Oh wow, KD, funny thing happened when I made the post on the alt that I was taking a break from FB to just deal with personal issues. I got contacted by 3 of my alt friends via the email address I left if anyone "needed me"--all men in committed relationships writing to say "is everything ok, was worried about you." I guess I have more male friends than I realize, though 2 of the 3 I've never met in person. And I guess I forgot, I've communicated with a few of the men from the DB board too on the alt or via phone/text. But none of this matters since the majority don't live anywhere near me ;-)
I didn't see that post but went back to read it. Funny, if I had read that first and not seen you posting here, I would probably have sent you an email, too... lol.
Something that I work on is knowing the difference between someone who "cares"... and someone who is "interested"... I don't know if this is going to make sense, but I'll try to explain it...
About 15 years ago, I was at a retreat with a group of people I didn't otherwise know. Close to the end of the week, I was invited by one of the people to visit her that evening to get my hair cut. Very benign and innocent.
When I arrived, I was fairly overwhelmed by what happened, but knew that my take from that evening was an experience I would never forget. The appartment was being shared by four people, only one of whom was single (and very cute, about my age).
From the moment I walked in the door, these ladies surrounded my and began an evening of me just being pampered. They made me comfortable, I got my hair cut, I hung out and chatted with them, and at one point, I was laying on one of the beds and they began to take turns feeding me, both with utensils and without...
What I learned was: a) not everyone who is nice to me has a negative, ulterior motive, b) I can open up to being cared for and unconditionally loved, without any other relationship motive, c) I am worthy of being loved, d) enjoy the moments for memories made, e) my only boundaries (walls) are they ones I have created and enforce and they are the difference between me hiding away in a bubble, or me opening up to what the world has to offer
What I also learned was, if I do not make myself available... if I hide in my bubble and behind my boundaries... I am not giving the world my all and the world... the universe... God... gives me back only what I can handle... If I want more than what I have... I have to give more of myself and I will get more back... I can peek over the wall and wish... or I can open the gate and step out...
We are all mirrors... I'd bet you are guarded with your guarded friend... I'd bet that if you genuinely opened up to him, he'd open up more to you... were you willing to risk that, before? Probably not... would you be willing to risk that now, or in the future? And could you do that without expectations? Only you know that answer... I'm not saying "go for it"...
But as they say:
"When the student is ready, the teacher appears..."
"When you stop seeking something you want, it finds you"
That goes for both the co-worker... as well as the guy you'd been seeing...
In regards to your male friends who are M... be DB about it... include their Ws... be transparent with their Ws... even the ones who you feel don't like or trust you...
I think you are doing fine and like my friend... there's no need to rush... there's plenty of love to get and give that does not have to include a R... and when that time finally comes... you'll know... and you'll finally be ready for it...
Hope that makes sense for you...
I agree with a lot of what you say above. The thing is I am seriously extroverted. I have had periods of introversion, staying in my bubble working on my book during sabbatical, but that ended in December. But the one thing I learned is that I need to be out and about a lot or it drives me batty. I can spend maybe 2 days in the house alone and by the third, I "have" to go out and socialize. I feel weird if I don't. So since December, I never peek over the wall. I'm over the wall.
There are two "classy" restaurants I go to where I only sit at the bar as that lets me meet people when a table doesn't. (this area has very few classy places, and by classy I mean clean and not trashy, lol). I am a regular to the point where I know the entire staff of both places and I am good friends with two of the women bartenders. They introduce me to all kinds of people. I am very open and friendly to anyone I meet. But no single guys ever come in unless they are about 20 years younger and I'm not going there. They come in in "packs" with their buddies anyway. We sometimes talk but there is a big disconnect between a group of guys still in college and me, a professor. There just isn't going to be a viable friendship there.
I also go to things outside going out for dinner/drinks. I go to art galleries, poetry readings, music performances, meditation group, PTO fundraisers, etc. I used to not allow students to connect with me on FB because I didn't want them crossing the boundary to my personal life, but now I do if they friend me. I am like their "den mother" as most are young women and they seek advice. I get a lot of "can I confide in you about my relationship" type things...because they seem to think I am like a big sister.
What I'm getting at is that I am really open to meeting people and I am very friendly and outgoing. I take advantage of every outlet possible to make new connections. And no matter where I look, people are married or in long-term committed relationships. At all age ranges.
I was hit on pretty hard in the past month by 2 different men at different times. One was married and one had a long-term girlfriend. I immediately pointed this out and got "so, she's not here now" or "well, let me just say my wife TRIES to write but can't, but maybe you and I could get together and you could offer some pointers." I do not know where the single men are who are intelligent and respectful.
I tried the online dating route. Disaster. Single men my age who had never been in a relationship more than 2 or 3 months--who couldn't hold a conversation because their anxiety over meeting in person was so bad--versus men who were downright raunchy and disrespectful and wanted only one thing and weren't afraid to say it.
It's just really bleak. As for my guarded friend, he's made a lot of statements that show he isn't interested. One was the whole "I won't date someone I work with." Two was "I'm too old for you" (he is 50 and I am 43 and while I don't care in his case, he does, he thinks this is too big a gap). Another is the fact that I can tell he is completely enamored with another female coworker whom he is best friends with and she is married, and they have this bond that many of us speculate is more than friends though we guess they never act on it. PLUS, he reminds me of my ex-husband in too many ways. Probably a reason I'm attracted to him! So he's just not a viable candidate to even date.
I've thought about asking for a FWB arrangement with him, but he has 2 or 3 other FWB partners and I just think that's kind of scary ;-) I couldn't go there.
The one good thing about all of this being without someone in my life is that my creativity is THROUGH THE ROOF. I've never written better in my life, never had more ideas, never produced so much. I am enormously confident in my writing and thinking abilities now and I never was before. So I guess there is that ;-) I can always hope some guy reads my book coming out and says "I simply MUST meet this woman!!" and then seeks me out, ha ha...it sounds like something out of a silly movie ;-)
I'm still not at that point of wanting an intimate, monogamous R with someone ATM... although yes, a FWB can seem enticing...
It sure does sound like you are doing the "right" things in getting yourself out there.
Here's something you might try... Make a list of all the single guys you know. Start scheduling dates with them. It does not matter if they are too old... or too young... or too crazy... or too... whatever... just start going on dates (1 on 1 or doubles)...
You could also enlist your friends to set you up on blind dates... if they are really your friends, why would they not...? lol...
And... I'm just going to say again... if you aren't getting any bites... it could be one of two possibilities... either you are coming across as needy and desperate... or you are coming across as aloof or disinterested...
One thing I've noticed with extroverts and "promoter" types... they often don't stand still long enough to be "caught"...
And... I'm just going to say again... if you aren't getting any bites... it could be one of two possibilities... either you are coming across as needy and desperate... or you are coming across as aloof or disinterested...
One thing I've noticed with extroverts and "promoter" types... they often don't stand still long enough to be "caught"...
So, if we are not with a man, and would like to be, we are either needy or aloof . . . . hmm any comments from other women on this??
Nice to know it is entirely our problem as women, and certainly lets guys off the hook!!
Not the experience of any single women I know, but there you go.
Ah... that is interesting though, isn't it? I had suggested that is how they might come across... not how they are...
Guys on that spectrum can come across as a$$holes or nerdy...
not that they are...
I find the image I project to be too friendly and nice. I get hit on all the time, and it is just me being me. Helpful, paying too much attention to everyone elses needs me.
The 26 year old I told you all about who decided he liked me enough to want a date...... I had noticed he collected and wore funny socks. So when I was cleaning out drawers I brough him a few pair at the event we attend monthly.
He later told me that I was "hitting" on him by doing that. I was mystified. But it has made me look closer at how I'm coming across, verses what I'm thinking in my pointy little head.
(I was thinking WOW I could make this guy happy with these socks and they won't end up in a landfill....)
Hey AntoniaB! Hang in there. I bet you will find Mr. Right right under your nose. Anyone as cool as you is bound to attract the right sort of guy to be the yin to your yang.
Aloha,
Wendy
He later told me that I was "hitting" on him by doing that. I was mystified. But it has made me look closer at how I'm coming across, verses what I'm thinking in my pointy little head.
Yup... DBing the dating scene... lol...
In the same way that we figured out how we contributed to the break down of our Ms and what we might do differently so we come across in a more effective and positive way and hopefully save our Ms... (for those who are still on that path...
)
I'm going to change the subject to something that has been eating at me...and I notice that I originally named my thread "letting people live their lives..."
I have made a big discovery in the past few weeks, and it is making me stuck in a way and I have to unstick myself.
I believe that my friends and family--that is my friends who knew me before the bomb--have "taken over" in many ways for my XH. They haven't taken over for the physical needs--I am self-sufficient and live alone and I'm fine with everything in that regard. But emotionally, they have all sort of become these coddling caretakers, and it's really starting to stifle me something fierce. I feel like I am still battling a form of codependency--an emotional codependency--and it's because they have become the confidants and worrywarts.
Example: When married, if I was anxious about something, I'd vocalize this to my XH. Then he'd tell me to not do it or back out of it. He'd say that if it causes me stress, to just not do it, or he'd not say that, but he'd encourage me to get out of it by throwing out a lot of "well, what if THIS happens" type statements.
The same thing happens now with friends and family. Anything I express the least bit of hesitancy or anxiety about, people are trying to talk me out of what I've said I would do or want to do, or they are offering all sorts of scary "what if" scenarios that are really meant to make me back out of the thing.
I've also had a problem my whole life with "what if" scenarios and future projections. Everyone knows this about me. But they just keep reinforcing this to me. The guy I have been seeing, who I've had a disagreement with, but who has patched things up with me, well he has decided to move very close by. This is entirely out of my control. I never had one second of input on his decision. I knew he was looking at places. One day he called to say he was looking at a place very close to me. I said "that's nice." Then a few days later he asked if I'd look at it with him. I did. I said nothing other than to agree that it was a nicely kept place. He was ecstatic, said it was what he wanted, and told the realtor. After we left the house, I said to him, "Are you sure you want to live that close to me?" He said "sure, neighbor, this is the best house that I've looked at and I'll be closer to work than I ever was. It's perfect."
2 weeks went by, I said no more about it. He told me today he signed the lease.
I can guarantee this has nothing to do with me. I am sure he is happy to know he has a friend nearby, but we have just had some dates over a two month period. We aren't even "in a relationship" and still really just getting to know one another.
But my friends and family are freaking out over this. The what if scenarios are out of control. "What if he hurts you in some way and then you can't feel you can live in your house in that town, that town is YOUR SPACE, it's YOUR SANCTUARY, and now HE is there..."
I repeat, I did nothing at all to interfere or encourage his moving. He was planning to move here BEFORE we were seeing each other. He just finally made it happen now. Just chance.
This is just one of many examples. But it's like, really getting to me. I feel like every move I make or don't make, there are a ton of voices in my head, the voices of my friends and family, and yes they are saying these things out of concern, but it really is tying me in knots. I never get angry or react. Sometimes I just say look please stop the what ifs. I don't want to be ungrateful for the help.
But this kind of thing just enables my old codependency and anxiety. It makes me obsess about things. It makes me think if I do something that a bunch of people "expressed concern" about my doing, and it goes wrong, I'll have to "answer" to them for it, so I end up trying to do what they want and listen to what they say and discount my own voice.
I don't know where my voice begins and "their" voices end. I'm beyond confused.
I feel almost like I have to shut myself off from telling anyone anything anymore that I feel anxious about or have worry about. I feel like I will have to act like everything is perfect all the time and that I have no inner struggles, because the minute I voice one, their voices start.
The thing is that I've tried this before, not confiding in them. Guess what? Then I get the whole "uh oh she is withdrawing, she is DEPRESSED!!!!"
And that's not it at all.
I just can't stand that when the bomb dropped, I had a very normal reaction to it. Just like all of us did. We went through something beyond horrific. And I've worked so hard to get myself together and I have. It doesn't mean I don't have bad days, but gosh I really know how to negotiate them and I get myself together fast. But it's never enough. These people always see me as "a vase about to shatter." My sister said that about me...that I was a vase that shattered and was held together with glue and threatening to shatter any minute again."
And I told her more than once that that vase is gone and I'm a whole new vase and she doesn't believe me. I actually thought that my putting my own cat down a few weeks ago entirely alone would make people see that I could handle my own life, but it made no difference. They still coddle me.
It makes me think that XH isn't the only one who made me a codependent.
But what advice does anyone have? I feel like I need to withdraw from people because I want to know what my own thoughts and decisions are and not be influenced by theirs so much. I don't seem to be capable of listening to them go on and on and not then internalize it, so maybe I should find a way not to listen, which might mean not discussing anything personal at all.
I have been thinking about a similar topic, running our lives by committee. (Or by internet consensus) I feel overwhelmed sometimes by all the different trains of thought in my head. I think it is Grand Central in there sometimes.
So we have to work on how to figure out which is the right train to be on. I don't think not talking to people is the answer. But maybe giving more weight to the right things (finding the right train to be on) is the answer.
You wrote something on another thread about feeling like your new friends are different with you than your old friends. Maybe it is as hard for our old friends to see the new us as it is for our (ex)spouses.
I am looking forward to seeing what others have to say about this!
Antonia,
It sounds as if you were raised to be co-dependent. You may have chosen your XH because it was more of the same and it was familiar.
BD seems to make the LBS evaluate, grow and change because the way we were didn't work out too well for many of us. It happens to us much faster than it does for the MLCer. We are light years ahead of them as far as our growth. That is why when we are able to step back from the initial pain of BD our rose colored glasses start to fade and we can be honest with our selves.
I've seen tremendous growth in you and when you finally start to trust it, your actions will speak louder than your words. You will go ahead and act on your decisions without discussing them first and if something doesn't work out, you'll own it without excuses.
I like that phrase living our lives by committee. I will remember that. It's a good way to describe it. I also agree on figuring out where to put the weight as opposed to all or nothing (it has been pointed out to me by more than one person that I'm an all or nothing thinker which doens't work either).
I think my old friends and family sometimes do not know what to make of me when I am fully my new self around them. I hear myself say things like 'whatever.' 'It'll work out.' 'I'm not worried about it.' 'Everything happens for a reason.'
Old friends and family act incredulous. New friends compliment me for being so "evolved" and so having my act together.
The thing is if I'm codependent on old friends and family, probably they are on me, and they aren't feeling things are right either if they are not coddling/nurturin/worrying. New friends and I just don't have that relationship.
I guess it's like you say, Seeking, that I have to do more actions to prove that I'm really changed a lot and still trying to go in a very different direction. I also like what you say about trusting myself; I bet I am leading people into coddling by having lack of trust in MYSELF and my decisions that I'm somehow expressing without realizing I'm expressing it.
Thanks, this has been really helpful :-)
The thing is if I'm codependent on old friends and family, probably they are on me, and they aren't feeling things are right either if they are not coddling/nurturin/worrying. New friends and I just don't have that relationship.
I guess it's like you say, Seeking, that I have to do more actions to prove that I'm really changed a lot and still trying to go in a very different direction. I also like what you say about trusting myself; I bet I am leading people into coddling by having lack of trust in MYSELF and my decisions that I'm somehow expressing without realizing I'm expressing it.
I heard relationships that are co-dependent described as A-frame. Both lean on each other. If you 'straighten up' - i.e. become non-co-dependent, they have nothing to lean against from their side. So they do not like it. You no longer 'need' them in teh way you did, but they are trying to impose that need on you so you don't disturb the A-frame.
I am learning to do simple electricity jobs. My xh always used to do the non-professional electrical work around the house, and it is so liberating to be able to tackle them [and know what you can't!]. In a recent brief exchange I let him know I was doing this and the result is total silence!!
You go, beatrice!!! I have a girlfriend going through the last bits of her divorce and she wrote with glee on the alt yesterday about hooking up her tv and hd and a roku player and other things all on her own. She was ecstatic as her departing ex called her "stupid" and "lazy" on the way out the door. She looked at youtube videos and read diagrams till she figured it all out!
Thank goodness for YouTube. I love that you can have mini lessons to figure things out.
Well I haven't had a reason to post in ages, but I've got one now. This is going to seem like it's not relevant to DBing or whatever because it's not about my ex; it's about the guy I've been seeing for several months. But it is relevant in that I saw myself in a pattern and finally broke it, but I still have work to do and guess I want some advice. So please bear with me as I explain.
First of all, I've seen this guy since late Feb./early March. I met him in December. We've gotten together at my house mostly for dinner out or in and then movies and conversation and just hanging out. We have had a sexual relationship from pretty early on. I had an instant chemistry with him and I knew it would be tough to sleep with someone having only slept with my XH for 23 years, but I felt an instant trust with this guy. It was a wonderful experience and I have zero regrets. We talked at length beforehand about the fact that we were not "in love" but did have affection and attraction. I knew that going in and I chose what I wanted. Like I said, no regrets about that.
From the getgo, he told me that his "pattern" he was trying to break was that he often would have a physical relationship but not be able to connect emotionally. He wanted to change this in himself. He said he was working to change it but could not make any promises to me about what we could "become." In my head, unbeknownst to him, I said to myself, "Antonia, YOU can be the woman who breaks through his shell." He is an abuse survivor and told me that was probably a major contributing factor in his inability to get close to people. I listened, but yet, I thought I could be "the one."
So soon after the physical relationship begins, he backs off a bit. We discuss how we really want to build a friendship too. He gets close to me to the point where he makes the decision to move to my area. He had planned to do it in a year but made the decision much earlier. He looked at a few places and chose to move in one mile from me, right on my road. It was pure chance. This place had never been rented before and he loved it and it is very close to his workplace. I said several times do you really want to live that close to me? What if we have a falling out or something? He just said that would never happen and he really wanted the house.
He moved in 2 weeks ago. It is clear that my being here has really helped him emotionally. He left family and friends to make this move. It's his first house alone ever (he's divorced, no kids, 4 years post-divorce). It was a big step for him. Since the move he's spent a lot more time with me. Some of it is romantic/sexual, the other half of it is just like friends only. He is very "hot-cold." This has always concerned me as I don't know where I "stand." But I was able to put up with it when he lived an hour away and I only saw him one day of the week and that day he was usually "hot."
After 2 weeks of him living here I am closer to him than ever and have developed real feelings for him. I don't think I'm in love with him but I do feel love towards him. I tried to ignore this as long as I could but I felt like I needed to tell him because I feel like he's not in the same place as me.
This is where the connection with my past comes in. I realized that with my XH that at the 10 or so year mark he and I held the marriage together via physical intimacy. We were at odds emotionally and spiritually and yet we ignored it. I CHOSE to have a relationship that was suffering because "at least I had the physical part." It was "better than nothing."
It has been nagging at me for awhile now that I was doing the same thing with this guy. Settling for the physical because it was better than being alone. Mind you, he's not a love em and leave em type. He and I go on dates and he's very thoughtful and caring and treats me with a lot of respect. He treats me on some days like we are a couple long-term. But it's not consistent. And no one knows about me, either. To everyone in his life, I'm his "friend."
But anyway, I decided I needed to come clean. Last night I said I have feelings for you beyond friendship, and as hard as it is to walk away from "a sure thing" physically with someone who makes me feel really good (better than my XH could), I need to do what scares me and walk away if you don't feel the same as me.
Do you feel the same as me?
He says sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't. Then he tells me WHY.
He is an abuse survivor, sexual abuse. But he was raped as a child AND at 17 years old. When he told me about the time at 17, I could tell that it is still very fresh a wound in him (he's nearly 40). He went through therapy years ago and figures that there is nothing more he can do. He follows Buddhism to detach from it all, but he admits it has affected his ability to love. He says he can't love anyone. He can care for people deeply and be friends with them, but he feels he can't love. He feels he can't be connected deeply emotionally because he is so damaged. And what makes this even worse is that he is sexually confused. He had one relationship with a male years ago. He said he doesn't know now if he is bisexual or not. He says he only ever felt "safe" when he was in the relationship with the man. But he clearly favors women. Despite that, he feels confused about his sexuality.
He told me once before that every time a relationship of his with a woman got to this point, where she wanted a deeper connection than he could give, and when he confided in her the reasons for his lack of intimacy, she would walk away and never have anything to do with him again. Of course when he said this originally, I said that wasn't me. That I'd rise above it and value the friendship more.
So this is where I am now. I do value his friendship. He is a good person. He works hard and is very ambitious and creative. He is incredibly supportive of me and my individuality. He supports me creatively and with my job and interests in a way my XH never did. He is not jealous of me and cares about my accomplishments. He constantly reinforces for me all the good changes I've made to become more independent and self-reliant. He is a good person to have in my life.
I knew going in that he might never feel the same as I did about us. And I knowingly stepped out on the limb with the hope I could make him open up to me. I didn't realize the problems from his past were as bad as they are. I just didn't know. I think he needs to get back into therapy, frankly, but he won't do it if he's not ready.
Is my heart broken? Kind of. But I also kind of broke it myself getting involved with someone who said at the outset that he probably couldn't meet me halfway. I'm not really angry at myself because I think there are tons of lessons I need to learn in this mess.
But what complicates it all so much is that my heart breaks FOR HIM. I didn't know what demons he was facing. All I could think when he told me everything was that my trauma pales in comparison to his. I mean maybe it doesn't--but I feel much more past my trauma in a shorter time frame by far than him. He's got real fears. His brother tried to drown him in the bathtub. Now I know why he freaked out when we went swimming in the ocean the other day.
And I guess what I want to know is what do I do. I don't want to abandon him just because he doesn't want me as a girlfriend. I can't hold it against him if he doesn't feel the same for me as I do for him. It would be very easy to just cut him out of my life and never talk to him again. But I don't feel like that's the right thing to do to another person.
I wish I could help him with his confusion but I know I can't. All I can do is recommend a really good psychiatrist and hope that he decides to get back into therapy and be supportive.
But I spoke to my mom and best friend about this and their immediate reaction was to all but walk away from him on the grounds that "I'm too freshly wounded to help someone else." They are deeply concerned that I am putting him before me.
What I told him was that our physical relationship was over. And the staying over at one another's houses is over. Is it reasonable to think that I can go backwards to just thinking of him as a friend with cutting that out of our lives?
I want to be true to my needs but I also want to be a good friend. This guy is NOT my XH because he's much more proactive about trying to handle things and trying to grow as a person. And I guess I feel like maybe I can be of some help or support to him if I can just accept that what I think I want from him is not what he can give and not hold that against him, but love him unconditionally.
Can I walk this line of being good to myself and compassionate to a person who has been supportive of my changes?
Or do I listen to my mom and friend and cut him out of my life because the effort will drain me?
I keep wondering why, why did I have this chance meeting with someone only to fall for him and find that he's not just unavailable but he's also so damaged. Was the whole point to teach me that again I can't always get what I want and I have to learn to live with what I can have and accept it?
I have made an appt with my psychiatrist and therapist for next week to get their feedback but anything any of you can say will be appreciated.
I think the difficulty for me is that I really wanted this guy to be "the one number two", the person I was meant to be with after my XH, but clearly it's not turning out that way, and while I'm glad I broke my first pattern of allowing sex without connection to substitute for a full relationship, I don't want to repeat other patterns of my past, and one of them is sacrificing myself for someone else. I need to know how to walk the line where I don't sacrifice myself but I treat someone I care about with compassion and respect.
Wow Antonia AMAZING realization.
I knew going in that he might never feel the same as I did about us.
The secret most marriage councilors won't tell the clients?
One partner is almost always more invested than the other.
What do you do...
You did this eyes wide open...
Your mom and your friends...
You never wanted to sacrifice...
All of those things leads to this:
I need to know how to walk the line where I don't sacrifice myself but I treat someone I care about with compassion and respect.
First off...you want not need.
It is a want.
The fact that you are aware of this problem is a great thing. Means you likely won't.
Do you love this guy?
If you do, then you'll be able to give him what he wants. If he loves you he will try and give you what you want as well. It's compromise when those wants...conflict. It's great when those wants...support each other.
Anyone who tells you definitively to drop or keep this guy is trying to live vicariously through you...and screw them.
What do you want...not need?
Antonia, I'm sorry your find yourself in this situation.
Just a couple of things, if I may.
You might want to change your mindset regarding feeling like you can change someone or their behavior. It really is not for you to do.
And I do believe that you can put yourself first and still have compassion for someone else.
I think one of the ways you do that is to fully accept the person for who they are - warts and all.
So, you set some boundarties. Good for you.
That doesnt mean you cannot still have him in your life. It just means that you care enough to allow him to walk his own journey.
And that you realize you are still walking your own.
Follow your gut, A. Not what others in your life tell you. Your life, your gut.
What do I want? Knee-jerk response: More authentic relationships with people. Openness, honesty, transparency.
I do think I love him. I don't think I'm "in love" with him because I feel kind of like he'd need to be feeling similar for me to get to that point. But I've thought a lot about love lately, and at times I feel like maybe "in love" only really means infatuation, while "love" is the deeper thing that endures.
I love my closest friends and that's kind of the love I feel for him...the love for a friend. I think my "deeper feelings for him" are more based around the physical chemistry I have with him. Now if he started seeing someone? That would hurt. I'd be jealous. I told him that's a part of his life I can't deal with right now if he goes that route and to keep me out of the loop. That's not a big deal as he is very private anyway about that sort of thing.
Bottom line is that if I take my desire to have him in my life romantically out of the equation, then I'm left with a person I truly care about as a friend and do want him in my life in that capacity.
There you go, A. Now you know what you want and what you don't want.
That's taking care of you. Still plenty of room to remain friends.
I keep wondering why, why did I have this chance meeting with someone only to fall for him and find that he's not just unavailable but he's also so damaged. Was the whole point to teach me that again I can't always get what I want and I have to learn to live with what I can have and accept it?
Because the universe is testing you to see if you really do understand what is available to you and what you deserve ... you don't have to take all the deserts on the tray girl - the universe gives us the right to send some of them back.
A drowning person, can't save another drowning person.
V
Wow Walking, that is interesting. I will say that while it was incredibly tough to be rejected by my XH and told I wasn't right for him in the end, and to feel the "void" the came from him leaving my life, it was incredibly tough for me to be the one to pull the plug here. I could have maintained a physical relationship with this guy which gave me a lot of comfort and closeness that I really missed after nearly 3 years single. To willingly be the one to end that was one of the hardest choices I've ever had to make. But I felt like I had to force myself to do it because it was less than what I deserve, and because the only way to keep it up was to be lying to him about how I felt. So I guess that's some measure of growth for me, that I could be strong enough to choose to be alone and not have that security of the physical closeness.
I hope something good comes of this, for me and also for him. Thanks Jack and Brookie also for posting.
Hi, I only just saw these postings.
Do you know about the 'monkey on the shoulder'? Most of us have one, arising out of events that have happened to us in our lives. It sits there and whispers in our ear. First of all we have to identify it, THEN stop feeding it, It dies, within a short time, and we bury it.
At the risk of sounding very harsh I believe that bf at 40ish is continuing to 'use' his sexual abuse as a reason for avoiding intimacy. I have a good friend who was raped at the same age, and it is dealable with. Why would a sensible person contiue to allow one event to sabotage his relationship. I suspect that he actually doesn't want deeper intimacy with anyone.
Damage or no damage, I have come to believe that we choose to be who we are on a daily basis, and that therapy helps us to identify our problems, give us a toolkit, but it doesn't actually do the work for us. Many people make the mistake of thinking that going to therapy can solve problems. Yes, it can, but only if they put in some pretty heavy spade work!
You have come a long way. I suspect that what might actually cause your relationsihp with this guy to founder is that he is emotionally stuck, and we can't be with someone in an evolving relationship unless they also grow and evolve.
You know how some friendshps survive and prosper, and others, very close, fade away? i believe part of this is that one or other party stops growing. Of course interests change an so on, but there is a stuckness in some people and they keep going round and round.
Well, it appears that my friend is pulling away from me.I haven't heard anything since Thursday from him and one email I sent and a text went unanswered and both were cheery and sort of in the vein of "how are you doing" and "this friendship is totally going to work, trust me."
So the upshot is that NOW I feel rejected and betrayed. I feel like all his talk about how much I meant to him as a friend just wasn't true. It's also making me sort of relive the way it felt when my XH left. Lots of old, bad emotions are coming to my mind and I'm not in a great place. I've been sort of sinking as it was anyway in the past few weeks, mainly because when I am off work for long periods, I seem to kind of lose it, no matter how many friends I maintain or contact or how much activity I give myself. The number of hours alone is just too much and I really feel the emotions of "this living alone far from family and my closest friends is not what I signed up for."
I think I really was looking forward to seeing my friend a lot this summer as it would help with the loneliness and now it seems like it's gone, and yet there he is, living right down the street. It's pretty torturous.
So I've felt myself fall very fast into what can only be described as depression. I really thought I was "done" with depression. I never had episodes of it till XH left, and I guess I figured once I felt mostly over wanting anything to do with XH it would be gone, but it's not. I just had it hidden a long time I guess.
I don't know what else to do but write so I took on a new writing project for a friend of mine who needs an essay for a book she is putting together. I'm concerned that my writing projects, while fruitful and productive, are a sort of escape hatch I go out of every time I get really down, and I don't know if this is a good thing or if it's just distracting me from ultimately healing. All I know is that the minute I started doing preliminary research and reading, this situation and the hurt I feel started to leave my mind FAST. It was like an instant relief for my mental ruminations to instead ruminate on literature and characters and quotes. It seems to be the only thing that works fast to stave off sadness to some extent. But like I said, I wonder if it's an unhealthy obsessive trait I'm developing to cope.
There is no reason professionally for me to write more. The only reason I'm doing it is to pull myself out of depression and give my anxiety somewhere else to focus for bits of time.
I'm going to ask my psychiatrist about all this. What I do know is that I feel sick to death that one person--XH--had the power to affect my life so deeply for so long, and to affect the way I handle new relationships failing--and I just keep saying to myself how many more years of my life does this whole mess have to take up? When can I just feel like I can rest again and stop trying to hard to "get better" and "get over this"? Believe me I am working myself to the bone in journaling and reading and GALing and I am angry as well at myself that I can't just leave all this stuff in the past and live my life without remembering and ruminating.
There are people who face much worse than I did with all sorts of things and I am angry at myself for not being able to just get over this all already and be a happy person. But I'm so jealous (another thing to talk about with my doctor) of other people who seem so centered and calm and happy with their relationships. I'm even jealous of XH. He's defied the odds about the success of affairs and is still with the OW, now living with her, after 2 years. The guy has still never spent one night alone since he moved out of his parents' house.
It's just a bad week I guess all around. Hopefully things will improve soon and my doctor will have some ideas, but I'm running out of strategies and energy.
Well quick update and some interesting info about depression/anxiety that may help others: my friend needed time to process things. We had one lengthy email exchange and tonight I'm going over to his house for pizza and movies. I think things will work out after all as there seems to be a commitment on both sides to turn what was going on into a friendship. We've been extremely open with one another and I'd say we know the deepest, darkest parts of each other's lives now, which is not a place I get to with people quickly (nor does he). I think we might actually have a good basis for a friendship with this. Time will tell...one day at a time.
I had appts with both my naturopath/counselor and psychiatrist this week and both have given me a lot of insight on things I'm still stuck on and areas I need to work on for myself. Both have said that I do not need any medication for depression/anxiety, that what I go through are normal blips when something triggers those states in me, and that since I seem to be able to recover in anywhere from 48-72 hours to the emotional state I was in before I plummeted, that's a sign that this is all normal with bumps in the road as expected.
I got some interesting advice from both about how to work through episodes of depression and anxiety, namely this great visual illustration: I'm in a blizzard, and the snow is all around, and my only job is to find footing. That's it. I should not attempt in a blizzard to fix things, to try to get out of the blizzard, but WAIT IT OUT. Just get my footing. That's it. I really like that visual as imagery sometimes helps me understand something that isn't concrete. I was also told "don't try to escape depression or anxiety because that tends to make it worse. Just try to breathe into it and tell yourself anxiety is your way of settling things down for later."
So I don't know if it helps any of you to hear those tips, but they are helping me.
So I have a query. Let me set it up.
I feel like I'm "over" my XH. Feel like I don't miss him anymore, realize that he and I weren't going to work out anymore, and I just don't feel attached anymore. I do miss being "married" and the security I felt with that, warranted or not. But not him.
However, I'm SOOOO not over this whole thing. I believe that I went into an MLC as a result of the divorce. I think the main issue is that I am still having extreme difficulty coming to terms with being alone. XH and I lived here 21 years and never had people close to us locally. He took the mutual friends with him except for one couple who lives in FL so I never see them anyway. So when he left I had no family, no friends to just go hang out with or anything. I had to rebuild my life alone entirely. I work very hard to make new friends and I do have friends and people I can go see or have over, but I'm very social, and it's like it's not enough sometimes and I feel terribly sad being alone.
The guy I was seeing, incidentally, well we never did the friendship without anything physical, we kept the physical, and that went on for 6 months and I called an end to the relationship 2 weeks ago. One of the hardest things I ever had to do, but he just didn't want the same things as me and was entirely commitment-phobic in terms of a relationship and it wasn't going to change. So when I spent time with him I felt more "normal", now I'm back to a lot more time alone as we are planning to sort of take a break and reset things to a casual friendship only.
I guess that has made these "alone" issues resurface. And what it is is anxiety, more than anything, that I'm dealing with. It makes me anxious to be alone so much. Any time something happens that is difficult, things like having to put 2 pets down this summer, or me having health problems, I really fall apart. It's temporary, but the anxiety/panic can go on for days.
In the midst of the latest "crash", my sister got harsh with me and said that I "need help", "need meds", "need a second opinion" because my psychiatrist has said I don't need meds and I need to face these things down, and that I"m this narcissistic drama queen who makes my family upset with my mood swings.
I don't want my sister or family to coddle me. But I also think they just plain don't get it. None of them have ever lived alone for any length of time, let alone away from each other. I spend an enormous amount of time alone during which I write. Well I have to think to write. I have been more creative and produced more work than ever in the past few years. But the downside is that I do overthink things.
My sister said, "you can't research or think your way out of this. Get help."
I guess what I want to know is does she have a point? Can I not "cure" myself of this anxiety or ability to be alone so much?
I'm starting to feel like the people around me are sick of how my XH's ending the marriage could still have these ripple effects years later, and that makes me feel guilty like I should just be able to shut off these problems and be peaceful. But then I think my god, I have worked myself into physical illness trying to hold myself up and keep going up this hill. I've GALed like crazy, made new friends, better relationships, written a book, taken care of my home and cats as best as I could, faced having to euthanize two cats all by myself, gone through the first relationship since my marriage that has come to an end, what more do you people want from me? I just can't be perfect. Medicating me doesnt' make the problems go away by magic.
So I don't know, how do I deal with this? Do I have to make a conscious effort to hide parts of my life from my family if they are going to be angry with me for "still" having "issues"?
No one wants to be "cured" more than me. Sometimes I hate the way I am. But I know that nothing happens overnight. I'm so exhausted from the efforts, really. Mentally and now physically (I have mono/epstein-barr virus which is causing physical problems). My mom actually blamed me for having health problems because I "neglected to take care of myself these past few years."
I dunno...Just really frustrated, angry, sad, the whole gamut of emotions. Not a good couple of weeks at all.
Antonia, I'm sorry to hear that. I'm also surprised by how eloquently you put things I've felt as well. Birds of a feather?
But I often think if I look back, how things went. The cycle of things that is. I think that at one point after the surprise, I was cycling rapidly. Overthinking. Not eating. The usual.
I think over time the waves got further and further apart but they are not "done" per se. We still have things to deal with.
My philosophy is that we can't run far enough from problems. Why try? Facing the issues. That's easier said than done though. Why? I don't know, but it is in my experience.
Initially, it's get through. Then argue. Then anger. Then deal. Then accept. Then... it goes on. But after a while, we have to change our approach. We no longer need to just get through. That transition is difficult. We are returning to a life we never really knew. In many ways, we're making up new patterns and it takes a lot of effort and consequently a large toll emotionally and physically.
For starters, I think you need to accept that it takes a long time for the healing. Your family may not want to hear it any longer. They have no frame of reference though, so keep that in mind. It's one of the things that drew me to these boards - people that would understand. I needed that more than anything. I sometimes still do, but I only tend to find it here. I find people that can relate to the struggles. People that can listen without judgement. Listen and understand. People outside this experience don't usually or are so far beyond it they don't want ot revisit. They found a way to cope (other person in many cases).
The feelings of anger, sadness, etc.. are they related to ex or more about the current situation and loneliness?
I get that way sometimes. But it's not about ex as much as it is about the loss of the plans and dreams. Still working through that at times. Usually what brings it up are situations with the kids where I feel she is being unreasonable or mean towards them. Wrong or right, it brings up the fact that I need to accept what is and find a way to deal. But it brings up the emotions. I almost feel like my emotions are confused in the sense that it has nothing to do with her directly, but rather my reaction and the injustice I feel.
I don't want anything to do with her, but that's more to do with the fact that dealing with her is unpleasant and unneccessary. I am happier without that and the new her. I know that. So I get tired of having to deal with some of the left over junk associated.
I catch myself blaming her for things sometimes and vigorously challenge those thoughts. I usually find I'm just leaning to dumping unpleasant emotions on her. That's not right either and doens't bring satisfaction, ya know?
What works better for me is to challenge things and figure out my own emotions. I find I am not as astute at separating my emotions as I'd like. I work harder to separate them because of that. To feel the emotions for what they are and why they are vs. blaming or dumping or whatever you want to call it. I mourn the loss of what I wanted, vs. what I really want now.
It takes it's toll on me. I get very tired of it all. When I boil it all down, I find that I find peace in the murky depths of my emotions
I think meds won't help either if that helps unless there is a physical reason you would need them. I think viewing things pragmatically and honestly are better. Acceptance is the key in my experience.
I don't think you're crazy or wrong or anything else negative. I think you're human and I think it's been a rough couple of weeks with no great way to vent the steam. Couple that with family pressure, and it can be a earth shattering if you're not careful. A lot to deal with at the least.
Perhaps it is time to start a new habit? You've finished the book (nice distraction), ended a relationship (hard to let go of the first one - really), and been physically sick. I would expect that it causes some rethink and some tiredness as you search for more.
A good time to be still and focus
A good time for new habits and social norms. A good time for new hobbies and exploration of you.
A new stage. A new chance to use the tools you have and to create a few more.
Life. It's got it's ups and downs, but we learn to surf...
AJ
Hi, I think you are normal. Total betrayal, the abrupt ending of a long relationship [never mind whether 'healthy' or 'unhealthy] these things time a long time to recover from.
I am in touch with another LBS and we are both post 6 years after long [30year plus] marriages, and we still feel waves of emotion at times that we thought we were,or should be beyond.
It hard to be alone in a world of couples, it is hard to be a woman alone, it is tough to face all the issues we have to face alone.
Sadness, sorrow and depression are all normal emotions that we have to deal with - [clinical depression is something else], I am talking about the sorrowful sort.
The one thing I would suggest is taking up an enjoyable physical activity, like dancing, or trampolining that tones you and tires you. Those of us that have jobs where we live in our heads need to get out of them.
There is nothing wrong with you, but your sister who is probably emotionally immature, doesn't like the fact that you are unhappy. That is her problem. She is trying to make it yours
I believe strongly that life is an organic process, and we cannot force the healing process. All we can do is facilitate it, by kindness to ourselves, and focussing on what gives us pleasure, and we are good at.
Give yourself time and you will continue to become stronger. Ending a relationship that was going nowhere took a lot of courage and strength, and you are probably feeling worse about that than you care to admit . . . .
Dear Antonia,
Sorry to hear you are having a rough time. Nothing is ever as easy as it looks.
I find myself in that mire and it is so hard to get clear. Like walking into mud and then you just can't get it off your shoes.
I was thinking of you the other day. I am waiting untill I move to get a new cat. I was missing my blak and white cat who disappeared over a year ago.
Hang tough and know all your DB friends are on your side!
Aloha,
Wendy
Thanks so much to AJ, Beatrice, and WT. I just have a few minutes before class but I wanted to respond to one thing AJ asked about.
I'm not really mourning the loss of hopes and dreams with XH. Truly. The 6 month rel. I had with someone new who was in a lot of ways much more suited to the person I am now and the person who was sort of struggling to "get out" in the second half of my marriage sort of helped me break that connection to XH. I really think that I tried very hard to change and grow into this person and my XH really shut that woman down, and I literally feel so much more free without him and have this whole attitude about my life being open and having tons of directions to go in where with him there was one regimented path we were going to follow.
So I really don't mourn the loss of him anymore. I mourn the "idea" of a companion being there for me and me for him, though. I am upset about current conditions, not the past. In fact there are many times I have even prayed for/wished him and the OW/his now 2 year GF well. I think they deserve each other, ha ha, and I think he's got what he wants, and I don't want a guy like him at all anymore. I have happy memories of him but even his betrayal doesn't have the sting it once did as it was the catalyst for a ton of growth in me.
So it's the current aloneness that I have difficulty with.
I do suspect the end of the rel. with the new guy is hurting more than I care to admit, as Beatrice suggested.
Antonia,
I am sorry that things did not work out between you and the guy you were seeing.
But I also think they just plain don't get it.
I’m not sure this statement will help……..
What I have learned/accepted is that I no longer need people to “get it”. I have accepted that many will not. On one hand it would be nice if they did, I just accept that they may never and no longer look to try and explain my feeling or positions to people that more than likely will not “get it”. The feelings I feel are mine. The dreams and desires I have are mine. This may sound a bit insensitive – I think it is not. For me it has been much more freeing. Free from everyone opinions and true acceptance that this is really MY LIFE.
I've GALed like crazy, made new friends, better relationships, written a book, taken care of my home and cats as best as I could, faced having to euthanize two cats all by myself, gone through the first relationship since my marriage that has come to an end, what more do you people want from me? I just can't be perfect. Medicating me doesnt' make the problems go away by magic.
1) Re read all that YOU have done.
2) IMO, people will always want MORE…they tend to want things done there way. This is really your life Antonia – everyone will not always agree with how you choose to live and deal with things. Maybe coming to peace with that will help.
3) You are not expected to be perfect – that wonderful trait belongs to God. So just be YOU. F what everyone else says.
I do suspect the end of the rel. with the new guy is hurting more than I care to admit
Yep….I would agree.
Antonia, this lonliness that you feel, the frustration, I think it is all part of the process – or post process if you will that we go through. Everyone heals at there own pace, everyones story is just a little different. My suggestion (FWIW) would be….
1) Give yourself sometime to get over your last R. while doing that….
2) Be really honest with yourself about what YOU feel comfortable changing that may change your life a little bit….for example…is it time to move, time to change your job – these things are all BIG issues to face and deal with…so take your time.
3) Figure out what it is that YOU really want going forward. You can always change your mind and probably will as you grow. Personally I think we all do.
Finally, message me…I have a group that YOU just may be interested in.
Smile – you really are an amazing person – don’t doubt it!
Thanks for the input, Eric, and I have been sitting here reading some of the essays on that sight...interesting stuff, that in a way my psychiatrist has been trying to help me tap into.
If I look at this relationship that has just ended, the part that was most challenging for me for a long time was recognizing that it wasn't the "right" relationship for me even though I wanted it to be so much, because being in a relationship made me feel "normal" again. Basically we were very close friends, and we also had "benefits", by mutual agreement, so it was "more" than FWB because we genuinely care about one another and really did spend a lot of time together. But it was never consistent--and it was entirely controlled by him. If he just decided that he wanted to see me a lot, well, there I was, ready and willing. If he decided that for a week or more he'd be completely detached, no contact at all, well, that's what would happen, unless I pushed for contact. It was extreme hot and cold. For awhile I just told myself look, you have to be less needy, and you don't want this going "codependent" on you, and so you need to spend time with your friends or alone and just be ok with letting him live his life apart from you, ultimately it's good that you have time apart. But over time I started to feel like this was less about us having different interests or lives and more about HIS pattern of pulling me close and then pushing me away deliberately. I felt he was controlling without realizing he was. It's the way he maintains distance so he doesn't get involved with anyone too deeply because he feels his level of emotional connection never matches anyone else's.
I started to realize that my friends aren't like this--my friends don't cling to me then drop me emotionally. We might not see each other much but the bond remains constant. It wasn't with him.
And I started to realize that the reason I was staying put in this situation was that the physical intimacy was so validating to making me feel "safe" or "protected" that it was addictive. Just being in his presence made me feel happy and normal, like I didn't have a care in the world.
I had to psych myself up to say look, I either "count" in your life or I don't, I can't have this in-betweenness constantly. I knew that he wouldn't step up and change--I knew that he'd say he just couldn't give what I was asking for, not just to me but to anyone. I knew what would happen if I stood up for my emotional needs over the physical.
When my XH began his MLC I took an extreme amount of emotional abuse from him for a very long time. I never told anyone about it and I kept ok'ing it. Why? Because any time he'd mistreat me, the next day he'd shower me with love and cuddling and intimacy. I was so addicted to that type of intimacy I sacrificed the emotional connection to keep him in my orbit.
I saw myself doing the very same with this new guy--and 2 or 3 times I said "we need to just be friends alone" and then inevitably I would tell him, no it's ok, we can go back to how we were. He would have continued that pattern indefinitely I'm sure. So two weeks ago, I finally stood up and stuck to things and I am not going back to how things were. I don't think he will either. He has said that he feels he wasn't the true friend I needed or wanted and he seems sincerely sorry that things could not work out that we could not be on the same page. He wants us to try to take time apart and then begin again as friends alone, seeing each other less, still somewhat connected. I am willing to try this but it's all very weird as he lives literally one mile from my door. So I have to detach from someone who is "right there." (of course some are stuck with STBXH's right in the same house, so I know I don't have it THAT difficult).
But I saw myself repeating my pattern with having this addictive behavior with a man, and I had to put a stop to it myself. Having the strength to go against the inner person in me who wants a man in her life desperately has been terribly difficult. I know logically that she is the codependent and she can't be "fed" anymore. I also know that my feeling that a relationship is ultimately the thing that will make me happy is something I have to get rid of, and that I have to be more comfortable being alone.
I guess a good analogy is that I feel like I just quit smoking cold turkey, and I was addicted to smoking for 25 years, and the desire for that cigarette is really bad and I'm fighting it, but I miss it. I miss the way that cigarette made me "feel" and it would be so easy and comforting to go back to it, but I know I have to resist the pull or else I'll keep repeating the patterns of the past.
But it was never consistent--and it was entirely controlled by him.
Have you ever really wrote down (and I know that you are a writer ) what YOU want in a partner? And I mean some specifics…for example if you like when someone calls you AT LEAST daily then that should be something that is on your list. If you want the type of partner that tells you when they leave work, etc. Get specific, I think (only my opinion) that this type of exercise helps.
For awhile I just told myself look, you have to be less needy, and you don't want this going "codependent" on you, and so you need to spend time with your friends or alone and just be ok with letting him live his life apart from you, ultimately it's good that you have time apart.
It’s funny someone once said to me that the “boards” are really good at teaching one to detach…what they are not good at is teaching someone to “re-attach”. From my own experience….it is all a learning experience. All of it.
So two weeks ago, I finally stood up and stuck to things and I am not going back to how things were.
My o my have we grown! I am soooo proud of YOU Antonia!
(of course some are stuck with STBXH's right in the same house, so I know I don't have it THAT difficult).
Ummmm…..yep!
I haven't written it down but it's in my head pretty firmly!
Yeah the thing is that from the getgo I told this guy what I thought he wanted to hear about the level of contact--because I was unbelievably attracted to him emotionally, creatively, physically, that I insisted I had the same level of detachment as him even when he was skeptical. I also thought that it would be good for me to be in a rel. with someone who didn't think the sun rose and set with me, because it would force me not to be overly attached/connected, and I truly wanted to keep growing more independent and less needy. (My rel. with XH we were in contact multiple times a day during work and I didn't think in retrospect I wanted this anymore).
The thing is that this guy has become detached to "a whole 'nother level" (he was formerly in relationships with very clingy women and a very clingy ex-wife). So while I got to a certain degree of detached-ness, his comfort zone was too much for me.
So I actually did know what I wanted in someone from the beginning but talked myself out of it because he wasn't it entirely and I wanted to mold myself to HIM to make it work as it seemed better than being alone.
Lesson learned: it was like our physical relationship required no effort, and our spiritual connection didn't require effort, but the emotional relationship did, and it would hit walls, big walls, and I'm thinking that unless the physical and emotional and spiritual are all fairly effortless, it's not meant to be with that person...
Hi Antonia! Sorry to read of your continuing issues. It's so hard to be alone, but on the other hand, better than being with someone whose not completely interested in you, as you are with him. [Deep breath, after long sentence.] I've also just gone through letting go ... my H, in my case, after 7 years living under the same roof, but in separate bedrooms. He wasn't here all the time, so I got used to being alone.
I realized, at last, that I wanted our M to work, I wanted to be with H, or someone I could have a good R with ... BUT I don't need it. I have to be myself, and be accepted as such, with the good and the bad. NEED makes a slave of you, WANT sets you free (you can take it or leave it). "I am free ... free at last" (thank you Martin Luther King).
It takes a lot of hard work to mold yourself into someone else's idea of perfection. In time, the mold will break 'cause it'll uncomfortable. Just be who you are, and I bet things will work out just fine.
Just my 2c worth.
"... it'll be uncomfortable ..." Wish the edit button would come back (hint hint).
BeingMe I love this part: "NEED makes a slave of you, WANT sets you free". That's so awesome, I'm going to memorize that and repeat as necessary!!
You also hit the nail on the head with the part about the effort to mold yourself into someone else's idea of perfection. My doctor told me I couldn't negotiate a friendship with the guy I was seeing unless I would be entirely "myself" with him. The funny thing is that there was a period of time, even a short period, where I was entirely myself with him, and it was when we were friends only, no bennies ;-) Once physicality got in there, I suddenly was wanting to make him commit to me, and that's what drove the whole Antonia trying to be a slightly altered version of herself.
So obviously I need to just keep being true to myself and realize that if someone can't be friends or more with me as I AM, then that person is the one with the issue, not me.
Thanks!
So obviously I need to just keep being true to myself and realize that if someone can't be friends or more with me as I AM, then that person is the one with the issue, not me.
Or put another way, they have different needs and wants then you do. Here's the thing in my opinion: you took a step and tried something out. You learned sooooo much from the past and from that experience. That's a good thing. Learning to date is more about us learning what we do and do not want and what we will and will not do. It's about learning if we can be ourselves and be loved for who we are. Learning what we are willing to change about ourselves (sacrifices for the sake of a relationship in any relationship are normal, but can be unhealthy if taken too far, right?)
I think you learned something very valuable in this past relationshihp. I think it's a very valuable lesson because it helps shape your acceptance of you to a whole new level. We sometimes see ourselves differently. That's based on experiences and you are out gaining new experiences. Some experience in being alone is also a good thing as we get to know ourselves without other external factors.
I'm proud of you for standing up to get what you want out of a relationship. I know it is not as much fun as we'd like, but I see it as a growth opportunity.
I did similar. I'm still learning to try and be friends with that person. I can tell you it is not easy if that helps, but for me that's something I want to learn to do if possible. Learning what a normal relationship looks like after being married for so long. To do that, there are many growth opportunities. Some are not as much fun as others, but they are all valuable.
Be true to you always. Don't be anyone else, Ant. It's not a good path and you are loveable just as you are.
AJ
Ok so, couple of issues creeping up, but I want feedback on one thing in particular.
Because I want to meet new people, and it's very hard to do so in my area (small town) who are my age (because all the new people I meet tend to be 18-21), I joined an online dating service. I made it clear that I want to seek out new friends and then if it goes something further, great. I weed out nearly everyone I come across. I'm very picky I guess. But one guy out of 100 caught my eye from his profile description.
So I contacted him and we have been emailing. The longer we email, (just a few days really but he's very responsive), the more I feel like this guy is really "together" and emotionally healthy. He just seems in a really good place. And the more I see this, the more damaged I feel about myself.
I think that I've only ever been attracted to "damaged" men. Men with emotional problems that I could try to fix. Men who couldn't connect who, through the sheer magnitude of my efforts, would either reach me on some level or be trying to. My friend told me it's because I'm a perfectionist, that I need a project. That a "normal" healthy guy isn't enough for me. There is no challenge. I agree with this.
So as our first meeting gets closer (it's Thursday) I just feel like a deer in headlights and feel like I want to bolt. I feel like I'm only going to HURT someone who is healthy because I'm messed up. Sure on the outside I'm successful and have overcome a lot. But on the inside? I'm not just dealing with betrayal from years ago. I'm dealing with constant anxiety because I can't get used to being alone. I'm trying really hard to overcome it but I wonder if I will EVER be a normal healthy person emotionally. I really do.
It's not that I have a timeline and am trying to be over the past traumas in too short a time span. It's that I know that I've had "issues" emotionally my entire life. That I don't know if I even know what love really is. I've said it but only as a codependent. And it's like a tidal wave that I'm trying to hold back, this stuff that makes up who I am.
I feel very stuck. I want to be connected to people, and I want a relationship with someone. And I'm tired of watching my life go by year after year alone for the most part while I'm not sharing companionship with someone else. I could die tomorrow, you know?
But I also feel like I'm this very damaged person inside. And the tough part is that I feel that another year or two alone isn't going to fix the damage. NOTHING WILL. I'm a perfectionist and I'm too hard on myself and I'm anxious and my anxiety can cause me real problems, and I've tried for 3 years now of therapy to fix it all, and I just can't. All I've done is develop better coping skills. But I can't get rid of the root cause, which is that this is who I am.
Now can you see why I want to run from this first meeting with someone? I don't want to hurt someone who seems so together. I don't understand how to deal with someone who is as kind as this guy is. I really don't. I'm used to having to work to entice someone to me, to open up. I don't have to do ANYTHING of the kind with this guy. And it's positively freaking me out.
So....help. I know this is not a "dating" forum, but this issue is really part of a larger issue in terms of trying to come to terms with feeling like a damaged person and trying to navigate any relationship after recognizing how messed up we can become post-betrayal, post-all this introspection...
Dear Antonia,
You are as God made you. I don't think you are as "Damaged" as you think. I think you are probably a wonderful person in real life.
As Ellie told me recently: I am clutching a crust of bread while the universe is trying to hand me a ham sandwich. Maybe you are too?
Maybe you are just what this guy, or if he isn't right, some other guy really needs in his life. You don't know.
My favorite new Buddhist saying is "Smile at fear, then step on it!"
(As you can tell I am all over the map with religion, sorry if I offend anyone.....)
Antonia, you are a great gal, who needs to be nice to herself.
Aloha,
Wendy
Hi, I tend to agree with Wendy - I think you are a perfectionist, but not as damaged as you think - in my experience really damaged people think they are OK and the rest of the world needs to shape up!
The other thing is that [relatively] undamaged people have very very good radar for damage. They may decide to go along with it in others because they value tthe person [no-one is wholly undamaged] You are an extrovert I suspect and get your energy from others, and stuff going on around you. Recognise that and perhaps stop labelling the need for others as damage. Anxiety is an issue, but there are mechanisms for coping with this.
Let the new guy worry about himself, and you save your emotional energy for you. But I do wonder about your living alone when it doesn't really suit you - it suits your perfectionism [I am being intrusive here I know] In a world of couples, living with friends is considered unusual, but I do think post divorce it can be a life saver, and stop us jumping into another relationship because we are lonely.
Human being, particularly women, are group animals, and we need others on all sorts of levels. There is nothing wrong with that.
The responses above are really helpful. Thanks for taking time to write, Wendy and Beatrice!!
Oh wow, in other news, I forgot to even tell all of you my book has been published. I've been so distracted I've not paid much attention!
Anyway I wanted everyone to know that I thanked all of you in my acknowledgments. I thanked "the members of the DB board and online friends." That means all of you. I didn't want to put anything strongly identifying the name of the board or MLC or anything to protect identities, but that generalized phrase refers to each and every person who has written to me or listened or inspired me from these boards. I could not have written that book without the wisdom and support from people here. And I wanted to thank you all from the bottom of my heart for what you've done, for me and really, for each other.
Antonia,
You are not damaged goods. You've learned from your mistakes and have been more than willing to share what you've learned along the way. No one is perfect and we all have issues of one kind or another...it's what we do w/the the knowledge and acceptance of who we are that counts.
Congratulations on the publication of your book! Can you share the title w/us? I'd love to read it.
Hi Snodderly, thanks for the response and support!!!
I especially like what you say in your last sentence on acceptance...so true.
Just google "Beyond His Dark Materials". That will take you to it. It's pricey, unfortunately (all academic books are) but you could always try to find a library that has it.
Thanks! I will do a google search and then check around to see who may have it.
Take care of yourself and know that you are loved and admired by many.
I am going to hijack your thread for a second, well sort of, since I know you are our ENGLISH expert here.
And famed book author.
Do you or does anyone else know if when Lewis Carroll wrote Alice in Wonderland it had anything to do with mid life crisis?
It seems very strange to me that he wrote this book and it really depicts a world that is so strange and yet so similar to the one we discuss here every day.
Ok I am sure I could do some research on this subject but I just did a google search and did not quickly come up with anything.
Anyways I thought that if anyone knows the answer it might be you.
Thanks.
Ha ha Cadet, I can totally answer this! I read a book last year which is historical fiction called Alice I Have Been which is about the Lewis Carroll/Alice controversy from her perspective, but it's not entirely accurate to real life. There is a big author's note at the end that describes which parts of the story are real and which are conjecture. There is also a book called The Lives of the Muses which IS accurate, by Francine Prose, and there is a chapter on Carroll's "muse" and is historically accurate.
Ok this might be a long post till I explain, just warning: Carroll was never comfortable around adults. He was a strange person and very introverted, and he had this fascination with photography, especially of children. Now in the Victorian era, children were seen as "angelic", almost cherub-like, when pictured in photos. They were idealized. The controvery came when a photograph of Alice Liddell was made by Carroll where she is wearing a peasant girl's dress and she has this sort of seductive look on her face, and the dress shows a fair amount of skin. Children had to stand a long time for the photo to be developed, meaning that this look seems deliberate, no accident. It's a very adult look on the young girl's face. Between this, other photos, and the sort of obsession Carroll had with this child, this controversy arose suggesting some impropriety between him and Alice, at least in terms of how he saw her, but no one will ever truly know.
From what I've read Carroll was bothered when children grew up and lost their "innocence." This is why he preferred children as photographic subjects and why it seemed he did not keep relationships with young girls when they became older. By most accounts he wrote the Alice in Wonderland story to entertain Alice Liddell and her sisters.
In terms of MLC I've never read anything that suggested he was in MLC, only that at worst, there were suggestions of pedophilia, and at best, just a personal attachment to the innocence children represented. But this fascination of his seemed to be with him his whole life--it's not that he aged and then suddenly wanted to be around young girls, like so many in MLC who want to rediscover their youth. It's more like Carroll seems a perpetual child in some ways himself--a childlike mind stuck in a grown man's body.
I have talked with a member of the boards about Carroll's photography and we agree that people get worked up over these photos now because we are so wary of pedophilia, but that if we were in the Victorian era and evaluating them, we'd probably find the photos not risque at all.
So I hope that answers your question, and you can read either of those books to get more info.
Ah I was right you did know the answer.
Sounds like he was a strange character and certainly Alice In Wonderland is almost as strange as MLC.
Well professor you did a great job with that lesson and I thank you for that.
So I learned something new today and I guess I am ready to try again tomorrow.
Cadet - I do agree that both of the Alice books, and particularly 'Through the Looking Glass' describe the different way that MLCers see the world that makes sense only to them. Let me try another theory here about why this is so.
I have been reading a long and fairly scholarly book called 'The Master and His Emissary' It is about the work and relationship between the two hemispheres of the brain and represents a summary of the reeasrch and the author's personal views.
OK, I am getting there with this one . . . Logic is a left brain hemisphere function, and certain types of mental illness including schizophrenia are thought to result from an imbalance in the flow of information from the left brain hemisphere [lbh] to the right one which is the seat of emotional empathy and all sorts of other functions which makes us 'human'
Carroll, as you doubtless know, was a dstinguished mathematician, and in both of eeh books there are many many logical puzzles, and discussions of language, from the point of view of a logician.
So, maybe the reason the the Alice books describe the world of MLC could be because they describe a disassociated state where logic is taken to its ridiculous conclusion. It demonstrates the limits of lbh thinking, unmoderated by the rbh, seen through the eyes of a child, and therefore ridiculous, and yet hard to argue against because it is logically consistent.
MLCers, it seems to me, shut themselves off from their deeper selves, and create a reality which makes sense only to them, and to a few crazy people they surround themselves with. The OP is often unstable emotionally, if not actually mentally ill [not always of course - I am talking about a tendency]
Anyway, just a thought, since you mentioned the Alice books . . .
I'm dealing with constant anxiety because I can't get used to being alone.
Is dating someone going to help you deal with the anxiety of being alone?
I wonder if I will EVER be a normal healthy person emotionally. I really do.
What is a normal healthy emotionally person looks like? Personally, I think it is a matter of perception and ACCEPTANCE. I think I am normal emotional person even though I prance around in a pink tutu (just kidding). My point though is….don’t you define normal? Don’t’ you define what emotional health looks like. Each of us are different Antonia and so I would ask…is your definition based on what SOMEONE ELSE thinks or says is emotionally healthy?
It's that I know that I've had "issues" emotionally my entire life.
AND KNOWING is really half the battle. IMO (and according to my therapist, sometime all you can do is ACKNOWLEDGE and ACCEPT what and who you are. For example, I have and to some extent still have abandonment issues – I know this, so I work hard to TRY and make sure that my choices are not driven by this. Am I perfect? No. Will I ever be? No. It is a part of who I am so I have made peace with it. Any partner that I am with would hopefully understand it. So instead of wasting a ton of energy trying to “rip it out”, “change it”, etc…I focus on accepting it and not allowing (as best I can) to have it drive me.
I want to be connected to people, and I want a relationship with someone.
Then connect!
And I'm tired of watching my life go by year after year alone for the most part while I'm not sharing companionship with someone else. I could die tomorrow, you know?
How do we learn? How do we grow? IMO, we learn by doing, by taking chances, by learning (AS BEST WE CAN) from our mistakes. No one Antonia is perfect. You ain’t, I ain’t…your next partner isn’t.
But I also feel like I'm this very damaged person inside. And the tough part is that I feel that another year or two alone isn't going to fix the damage. NOTHING WILL.
1) Stop saying you are damaged.
2) Stop trying to forecast the future, LIVE FOR JUST TODAY! Enjoy what you have today.
3) Maybe stop trying to FIX it and ACCEPT it. Accept that you, I, your mom, my mom, your dad, Cadet, AJM, CAT,….hell everybody has issues. The issues though should NOT hold us back. DO NOT get fixed overnight and in some case not for a verrrryyyy long time. You cannot undo the past – you can though change how you view/approach and deal with the future.
I'm a perfectionist and I'm too hard on myself and I'm anxious and my anxiety can cause me real problems, and I've tried for 3 years now of therapy to fix it all, and I just can't.
Maybe you don’t have to “fix” you. Maybe you can just be YOU.
I don't want to hurt someone who seems so together.
If they are “so together” they will make a choice that is good for them. You really do not need to HELP them.
I don't understand how to deal with someone who is as kind as this guy is. I really don't. I'm used to having to work to entice someone to me, to open up. I don't have to do ANYTHING of the kind with this guy. And it's positively freaking me out.
I think you are smart enough to LEARN how to deal with someone like this guy. Hell you will never learn unless you try. Oh…and you will make mistakes along the way…just like he will, I will and everyone else.
So I had the date--4 hours of talking at a bar/restaurant. Very good time. The prevailing thought I have had after is that it's no "work" on my end...I am totally being 100% me and this guy seems to like me and have a real interest in me. I don't have to draw him out of his "shell" or chip away at his emotional wall.
This is just all new territory for me. I know it's a good thing, but it's just not my norm. I think this all goes back to the fact that I've never been around a couple in a relationship of my own or my family's that didn't involve the woman trying to deal with a man with emotional issues, and being this very ambitious person, I sort of make it my goal to help someone out, i.e. "I'm going to be the woman who helps him change." This sort of thing is always made worse when I meet a guy (like the guy I just stopped seeing) who expresses a real desire to change in his words (till I see the actions don't match).
So I guess if I'm going to keep seeing this guy, I have to learn to just relax with the fact that I don't have to "do" anything.
One thing I realized is that I think I'm an adrenaline junky, ha ha. I think it's a shot of adrenaline to be the person who can once in awhile draw someone out to connect who is emotionally unavailable. I got addicted to that shot of adrenaline. If I do'nt have to draw someone out, there is this evenness in the interaction that isn't all volatile. So I guess I need to break that addiction, so to speak.
Antonia -
Congrats on the date and just having the ability to just be...
You deserve it:)
IB
Well that turned out to be a huge bust. Had a second date. Awkward from the get-go. Could not put my finger on it at first but something about the guy was progressively seeming more and more "off." At some point he launched into some sexual comments/language/profanity that really came out of nowhere and just seemed inappropriate for the conversation considering I barely knew him. I was kind of unnerved/uncomfortable, so I sort of turned away from him in my seat and just acted more detached, figuring I'll sit here awhile longer, make my excuses about working tomorrow, then leave. So I did. I just had this radar going off like crazy that something wasn't quite right.
I got home and an hour later he emailed a long very manipulative email where he admitted to having scrutinized all my body language all night, reading me from my every move. From this he decided I was only interested in being friends. Well, from the beginning, I'd said I was only capable of something serious if I grew to have a friendship and trust with someone, so yes, this was true. But then he started in on what was it I said or did to "turn you off" and that sort of thing, and then also begged me to tell him that he was MISreading him, yadda yadda. Just felt like the email was creepy, I really did.
I replied short and sweet saying "I think I'm just not ready for a relationship and it was nice to meet you, thanks again for dinner." This wasn't good enough. He came back at me again with lots of smiley faces and winks, in another email wanting to know exactly what it was that he did so he could "learn" from it. I thought I'm not engaging in this game. He knows where I work. He feels a bit predatory to me. I'm trying to diffuse any potential problem. So I say "it's not you it's me. I guess I just didn't realize that I wasn't ready for a relationship till talk seemed to drift from friendly chit chat to other things." (by other things I meant his intrusive sexual questions of me). He emailed again saying "well I don't see anything that wasn't entirely innocent, I mean our conversation was no different than the conversations I have with my friends."
But you don't ask someone you JUST MET about whether their first sexual experience post-divorce is "wild" and "crazy" and if you found yourself doing deviant things. And I'm not about to bring this up with him. I'm afraid he'll keep bugging me or worse yet, show up where I work.
I've stopped returning his emails. I'm entirely weirded out by this and now I swear I will NEVER go on another online date as long as I live. I realize there may be nice people out there but this was just bizarre. I'd rather be alone.
He sounds like a real nut job. Please be careful and you are wise not to respond to his emails.
BTW, I am on the waiting list w/Amazon for your book.
OMG the stories I could tell you about online dating!!!! Holy Smoley! lol
PEI I have a few other stories and my one friend always says I should put them in a book--but I totally don't have enough for a book. We should all pool our stories some day; I'm sure the book would be hysterical. I'm dying to tell the story of "the guy who smelled like an old, wet towel" to a rapt audience, lol.
Thanks Snodderly for the support!! I know amazon keeps selling out. They likely get just a few copies at a time then have to request more from the publisher. I've seen people get it faster from the publisher directly than from amazon--it's
www.mcfarlandpub.com, search by title or author. Amazon had it discounted for one day--no idea why--but they put the price back up to full now and are saying 1-3 weeks. I am really excited for someone from the boards to read it, though...I mean a lot of it is probably dry lit. crit. to most people, but the acknowledgments, intro essay, section openers and conclusion are less "academic-y" (lol, SO not a word)and all clearly influenced by a lot of the ideas discussed by all the posters here.
Really anyone who ever interacted with me here should know that they are a "part" of the book :-)
So I say everyone start writing their short stories about online dating. Antonia can float this idea to her publishing contacts. Antonia, I bet you could edit the crap out of it. What the heck would you title this short story book/collection of essays?
I kind of like what Antonia said. So what about : "Date Online? I'd Rather be Alone!"
I haven't shared everything about the guy I was recently dating, but it was pretty funny. I went to Ruby Tuesdays to watch a football game with him and he yelled out: "MOTHER FREAKER!" really loud a couple of times. Seriously? Why not just say the other thing? Because it is just as offensive.
He also chased down our waiter and complained that they didn't bring my tea fast enough. He did this by leaping out of the booth and hunching his shoulders and doing a weird exaggerated knees high tippy toe thing. Cartoon like. He is also the cheapest tipper I have ever come across. Like 5%. Maybe.....
Life is too short, and yes I'd rather be alone, too.
Wendy, You are a hoot!
Turn him into a short story, please!
Well unfortunately my connections with publishing only work for writing literary criticism/academic essays, not personal memoir!!! So I have no clue/angle on how to get these pieces published. But it may actually be cathartic for some to just write this stuff out--either here or on personal journals. I didn't journal for about 20 years and restarted with bomb drop, and I've found it really helpful. In fact I'm starting to encourage tons of people around me to write/journal. There are poets in all of us, really...
So I've made some personal decisions, lately...I'm just going to lay low and stop the whole trying to date thing. I think I'm going to really try to embrace being "alone" (knowing that with friends I'm never truly alone, of course) and try to get at my own root issues. I know that I have dealt with anxiety problems and perfectionism my entire life, and this is bigger than my marriage as it goes all the way back to when I was a kid. Being in a relationship for me often makes me less anxious because the endorphins of a relationship distract me from being self-critical and anxious. But that's a crutch, and maybe I have no business being in a relationship as long as I'm using it on some level as an escape hatch.
I've got some health issues going on now that need dealing with that I've not handled for years, and I'm thinking now is the time to face all of it. Alone. Not wait till some man can be in my life and help me. But do it alone.
So I'm just not looking anymore for a partner. I'm not going to be antisocial and will hang out with my girlfriends, but I'm not going to allow myself to be driven by some quest to be with someone. It will hurt. I know it. Being alone for 2 years and then with someone for 6 months only to lose it has hurt, a lot. But I swear I will rise above this. I have to summon the fighter side of me and just face the reality that I have to take care of myself and not rely on someone else to care for me.
There are many times I've felt very strongly that I will not have a relationship again that is lasting. This is painful. But I do have a ton of platonic relationships, and I think perhaps I should be focusing on the fact that these come very easily to me and they are fruitful and positive, and maybe my role in life is to be a platonic friend to people. It's not what I want but maybe it is what I am meant for.
And I'm back for a second post, just to say that the guy I had the 6 month thing with post-divorce has taken to FB, totally unlike him ever, to post his every move with the new woman who "took my place", and today was the coup de grace, when he posted a pic of himself, head touching hers "oh so romantically", dressed up to the nines for a WEDDING they were attending together. She isn't doing the posting/tagging. HE is. The self-identified "I will never ever in my life post my personal busines on FB" guy.
So. This is TWO men I've had relationships with who have ended things with me and gone immediately to a new person whom they show off to the public with posts and pics when they never did this before.
Seriously? I feel like I should never again be in any relationship only because this is what will happen when it ends. WTH, is there a sign on my back saying "kick me when I'm down?"
Seriously? I feel like I should never again be in any relationship only because this is what will happen when it ends. WTH, is there a sign on my back saying "kick me when I'm down?"
No, dear Antonia,
Just next time make sure to date someone who is at the same level of the evolution scale as you...
I have followed your story from the beginning and you have made such an amazing progress...you should be very proud of yourself. You definitely deserve so much better. And I do believe that we usually find what we want when we are not looking. So, keep doing your GAL activities and enjoy the good things in your life as it is. Celebrate yourself! You are wonderful!
That's really nice of you to say, elfie, in terms of feeling pride in myself. I really struggle with that emotion. I think it's because I look back and think "sure, I got through the divorce and all that crap, but now something new hits me and I fall apart again." I guess I often figure that if I could conquer what seemed to be the worst thing that could ever happen, it should be smoother sailing otherwise, but I think we must always all be changing so much that the "worst" thing is never static/unchanging.
I've just had a really rotten last 5 weeks or so in general and am very overwhelmed with how much I overbooked myself with work and professional development, and until I get out from under this mound of stuff I have to do, I'll probably be a bit depressed and not really celebrating myself as I should be. Thanks again for the support, though :-)
Antonia -
I was catching up on reading and saw your posts. I am so sorry you were hurt again. However, so proud of you for putting yourself out there. You have so much to offer and I really believe there is a plan.
Keep fighting the good fight:)
IB