I have been lurking here for a few months and finally posting my sitch. I will break this into multiple posts for clarity and brevity (something like "Sitch History" "Changes/180's" "Current", etc).
"Sitch History"
This summer my wife (we've been married 18 years, together 22) was acting distant and very pre-occupied with privacy while on the computer. This behavior had been seen about 1.5 years previously (summer 2009) during her A (only 1 time of PA though, so mostly EA)with her old high school boyfriend with whom she reconnected with via the internet. Come to find out that she had been very busy while our kids and I were on vacation (she stayed home, needed a break from being a stay at home Mom). On our computers was lots of history and pics in the caches of her profiles at some adult swinger and dating websites.
Since she had had an EA earlier, and we worked that out then and I was promised "never again", I was devastated. The first EA had devastated me, to the point of almost suicide, but I looked at my life insurance suicide clause, I was one year out, so I resolved I could make it one year as I would not leave my kids in poverty. I also found an e-book that day ("Break Free" is all of the title I will say) that laid out the types of affairs, the usual personalities that have the different types, the likelihood of resolving and saving the marriage and the best approaches to saving the marriage. A literal life saver for me. Her type was "prove desirability", personality traits matched almost exactly, and the likelihood of saving very high....and the techniques worked (the first advice was "BACK OFF"...the more you try to stop it the worse you make it and push them to the OP...oh so true). It also suggested looking best, stop moping, GAL, etc. I made changes for my part in damaging the marriage and it getting to the point of an affair, C helped her see what she was doing, the OM tripped himself up eventually and she let it go in August 2010.
When confronted with her current activities, she really lost it and had a fit where I thought I was watching a child. The revelations exposed during the outbreak were:
-She needed to resolve her issues of desirability and the missed adolescence and young adulthood due to her social anxiety (she was molested when she was little, and this shut down many parts of her).
-She wanted to have some more life experience and exploration and be someone who I deserved (I never thought less of her or thought her sexually boring).
-I was not supposed to know, it was her thing and I would get the surprise benefits.
-It all was ruined now that I knew....
-She wasn't sure if she wanted a relationship anymore.
I accepted (intellectually, not emotionally) that she had to resolve these issues, and was "okay" as long as it was cyber only and she didn't get emotionally involved, and I learned from the first A that I really didn't have much choice...but I forgot about the "BACK OFF" part and did the begging, pleading, lost puppy routine, and gave into temptation to snoop (which I should have remembered does not help, AT ALL). I dug into relationship books, tried "maxxing the marriage", etc, etc, and basically became a big smothering blanket.
I don't believe I had yet recovered from the first A and lost my true self in there somewhere. Totally deer in the headlights sooper-dooper pleaser routine. Yuck. And I slipped from my changes from before, slid back into the things she didn't like such as drinking too much, being down and unhappy (more in my changes/180's post on that), etc.
In September I got the "I love you but I am not IN-love with you" talk (see paragraph above). I REALLY panicked then (though I was calm and "safe" when she told me). A week later I was told that I did "nothing for her sexually" anymore, that she just "changed", couldn't help it....and the multiple guys in cyberland and vid chatting, etc had nothing to do with it (my IC and IP coach, both female, said she was in denial about that not affecting how she felt about me). During this time I found DB, got the books (and A LOT of other books), counseling and really put the changes/180's into overdrive (can you say "wake up call"?).
Synopsis:
-History of depression, low self-esteem, poor body image, anxiety, sexual abuse at young age
2008-Her father died.
2009-2010- Affair (mostly EA) with highschool boyfriend whom she never really let go of.
2011-back ok, then started heavy AD for anxiety and depression in spring, also confirmed peri-menapause, the nest started emptying...I fell back into bad habits and behaviors...revisiting issues brought up during first A described above that I should have paid attention to...
IC and I figure this is and was MLC. Luckily I found the DB books and this forum and have made more changes and you all have saved me from myself through your sitches and posts, really made me look in the mirror...
I have gathered up sandi2 rules and original sitch (very close to ours I think), Cadet MLC links, and scads of other posters wisdom...
Next post...more M background issues, my current changes/180's/GAL...
T^2
I have gathered up sandi2 rules and original sitch (very close to ours I think), Cadet MLC links, and scads of other posters wisdom...
Welcome to the board, sounds like you do not need my welcome post but I can put it here if you do.
Glad the life insurance saved your life.
Imagine if you were covered for suicide.
Then what would you have done?
Hey we all are a little crazy when we get bombed,
then it is time to pick yourself up dust yourself off and start living again.
Keep us posted and let us know how we can help.
T^2,
I'm glad you are here. It takes courage to admit thoughts of suicide. I know I would be more lost with out you. So, thanks for sticking around. You have really helped me.
Do you intend on focusing on you? GAL, 180's, DBing, ignoring the EA activity until she wants to talk about your M.
Or, do you have boundaries?
You mentioned stirring the pot on my thread. How did that go?
Thank you Cadet.
I have been lurking here since the bomb, haven't posted sitch because W may know I am here, but I am now seeing signs of progress, so I do not want to screw up (via impatience, etc, whatever) and send her back into the tunnel (been there, done that already 2 years ago).
This site has saved me and my sanity, even in lurking mode.
Imagine if you were covered for suicide.
Then what would you have done?
Mr. 9mm was in front of me on my desk as I talked with the hotline...
This time around the suicide clause is kicked in, but I got "myself" back via this site, books and C's, so no real worries of suicide this time around (have it crossed my mind? yes, fleetingly when I tail spun into frustration, sadness, etc...but nothing like 2 years ago, and VERY fleeting).
I am strong now.
Thank you PW,
I have been focusing on me and making my changes stick and integrated into the new me.
From what I have read regarding mlc, and what I know of W...I have to let the A activity run its course.
I do have boundaries, since we still co-habitate with the kids. No cyber in OUR bedroom. If goes PA, then not in OUR house (that would be a deal breaker).
I haven't moved out of OUR bedroom, and will not.
I will not move out, file papers, etc. unless I choose to, and I haven't chosen that yet. I do not want to separate, divorce and do not want this, so W will have to instigate that, not me.
I didn't stir the pot too much, just expressed my need to start trusting, that I want to trust. I just did a calm statement and let it go with no discussion...one of those gut calls I guess (and a 180 for me, not having to have a discussion/resolution right at that moment).
(not having to have a discussion/resolution right at that moment).
I hear you. That is a habit of my own. It seems that wanting a resolution at the moment has never brought one for me. That is one of my 180's as well. It will come through action anyway. Not words.
Sitch post #2
"Some M Dynamics, My Conrtibution to the Problems and my 180's"
We are both really nice people, want to please, and are really uncomfortable with conflict. She is emotive dominant, I am cognitive dominant. She is more spontaneous, thinking later, I am a planner and thinking (over-thinking many times I am sure) first. We have had some tough times, but always got through it. For much of our R, I was kind of her counselor, but that role I started working out of 2 years ago, it was no longer useful to the family and R.
We also had a damn good intimate and sex life.
I think one of the biggest negative dynamics in our relationship was that after dealing with the kids and house all day (and her depression), she had not much to give me when I came home from work (very mentally demanding career, and when this dynamic started...very dysfunctional, junior high school-ish atmosphere), so, I would have a beer or two right after work to de-compress and numb my beat up frustrations. Problem became, I would not stop there, so by the time she had something to give later in the evening, I was into a 6 pack, and not really there anymore.
This became a bad habit of mine for years. I am not a mean person when I drink, I grew up with that, so that was a line in the sand for me. But, I wasn't really listening to her when she started getting worried about my drinking. I am a nice guy, don't get out of control, so I did not see the problem....but, her family background made her much more sensitive to it...I was not listening from her perspective. And I knew, deep down, that I was pushing it, right along the edge of sliding into alcoholism. During the first A, I severely reduced drinking as part of my changes, started working out, etc...but I slipped on those changes after a while and went back to old habits. Then she stopped talking about it...then I read what MW said about talking/nagging stopping...(!) Then I got ILYBNILWY...
So, here are my contributions to the marriage problems, from her, documented in my journal in front of her...and my 180's.
-Daily drinking to excess.
--Stopped that. Only have a couple of drinks occasionally, no more daily and no more excess.
-Let myself go physically.
--Part of GAL, weight lifting, biking, "marriage crisis/affair/mlc diet", from 210 and 28% body fat to 175 and 12% body fat.
-Negative and down about work, letting people take advantage of me.
--Changed attitude about work, do not talk about it unless positive, and don't let people walk on me, stronger boundaries now.
-Not spending enough time with kids.
--Gee, since I don't drink much anymore, lots of time to spend with them, and doing it!
-Not praising enough, especially with day to day things.
--I am understanding/learning her needs now...what I once took for granted that I thought she knew she did a good job, I am now affirming and NOT assuming.
-Lost my "true self", and I deflect praise with self-deprecating comments.
--Thanks to a lot of books, this forum, GAL and introspection/meditation, I have made a lot of progress here. I have stopped making jokes to deflect praise of me, or anyone...they are NOT funny, really.
-Not admitting when wrong and owning up. Try to logically argue my way out of being wrong.
--This has stopped.
-Impatience, especially with the kids.
--Much, much better...though I still have to catch myself sometimes, and when I do, I admit it and apologize.
-"Fixing/Controlling" behavior.
--Wake up call there, many of my behaviors I did not see or intend as controlling...I do now and am constantly working on letting people solve their own problems, making their own mistakes...though it still is a battle within.
-When having a arguement or non-positive discussion, I shut down and/or walk away.
--This is stopped.
-No outside life, her being my only source of social life too much pressure, especially when she needs to work on herself.
--GAL in progress and expanding. Stopped wet blanket behavior...meeting my own needs now.
-$$$/finances attitude.
--I am trying to join her in frugality better and do now take a less carefree attitude, again here, I was not listening from HER perspective well at all.
-Not following through on things.
--As a recovering "pleaser", I am now able to say "no" or "yes" rather than "maybe"...and when I do say "yes", I do follow through.
-"Too nice" of a guy, especially since her first A. Let people walk on me, comes off as weak.
--UGH!...she is right, I went to the Heartless B__ches Int'l website and yup...there was a mirror...some books, self-reflection, boundaries and practice is working me back to being a man, without going all alpha-male jerk.
The interesting thing is, of these issues that I was aware of, most I did not like in me either.
Those I was not aware (eg, controlling behavior), once aware...yuck, omg...yuck!
Sitch post #3
GAL and some current status
Some of my GAL activities:
Working out, weight lifting.
More time with the kids.
Meditation and working on my spirituality.
I started tying flies and leather working again...W once said that seeing me do that was "sexy"...(these sorta come and go).
Biking to work except in winter.
Trying to find new friends and reconnect with a couple old ones.
REI has weekly free events (I am into outdoor/back country sports).
I can't quite get back to music/songwriting yet emotionally...like the world needs another lost lover song...:)
Books, books, books (and not all self-help, R books either, got some good sci-fi/fantasy/literature)...thrift store gets me a bag o' books for a quarter (W gets these for me actually).
Joined some meet-up groups.
Since she has wanted/needs a lot of space, I will get out of the house in the evenings and just do whatever...after reading sandi2's sitch and how she felt about her H (my W said same things almost verbatim) during EA, I figure not being at home lessened her annoyance towards me (which she has verified) and maybe assisted her seeing that maybe I wasn't 100% of the problem.
I made a huge list of activities to consider as the seasons change and more opportunities arise...
Some current status:
Since I have been lurking for months, it is kind of hard to tell all of the rollercoaster ride so far.
I have really come a long way in detaching, I even sat myself down and really mentally explored us not making it and her leaving....REALLY explored my thoughts, emotions...cried...then realized I would be ok, that I WOULD MAKE IT. I would be sad, lonely, heartbroken, etc, but, I would make it. I look at her A activities, the mood swings, the personality fluctuations and so forth as a social anthropologist might...curious, but not affecting me too much (yes, it does affect me, but I have better days more often than not).
What saddens me is seeing alien mode, and that I do not like, or find at all attractive, that alien.
I have seen more re-emergance of her true sweetheart self, less alien mode. based on what she has been saying, I think she is realizing a lot of things, like how she is affecting others, some of the root causes...when she gets all wrapped up in her processing these are the only times now that she mentions a desire to leave.
Alien mode seems to be diminishing and less intense. She is recognizing "it" and doing what she needs (going for a drive, scream therapy, etc) and verbalizing what it is and what she is doing about it.
I have also seen a new side of her, more upfront with her thoughts, not afraid to express herself. This I like.
She now tells me when her anger, frustrations are not caused by me (unless I really did cause it, and she tells me these times as well). She is starting to recognize where things are coming from I believe. Getting some clarity.
She has started reconnecting with her family again, they were close before, she went pretty dark on them for 3-4 months.
She has taken some interest in the community, our kids school, some of our kids friends families...and had a great not-for-profit business idea, which I told her was great, lets do it when you are ready! I would be the behind the scenes support person, she would drive it.
"A" activity seems to be parallel to when she was starting to wrap things up the first time around with OM.
Through out most of this, W has continued to pick me up things when out shopping that I didn't ask for, but needed or could use (even some things I would like to have, but not needed)...
I am keeping expectations near zero...but my intuition is perking its ears up...
I have maintained periodic "self check-in" times for myself where I really ask myself if I am still willing to continue, or not.
I am not done yet.
Now I just have to remember to take it slowly...(thanks sandi2!)
T^2
and had a great not-for-profit business idea, which I told her was great, lets do it when you are ready! I would be the behind the scenes support person, she would drive it.
180 for me...its fun not taking over/controlling/adding in all my ideas/finding the possible problems...wish I have figured this out sooner in life.
Interesting conversation with W last night.
She actually called ME to check in (this is new), she was in a great mood helping my sons friends family move. I was still at work so I made a crack about getting the dancing girls to quite down a bit so I could here her, she actually laughed, her old, true laugh. I haven't been funny for 6 months.
So she gets home and she starts a conversation with me about all this stuff with our sons family...I listen, validate, etc. She seems to be having a great time and seems to be enjoying my company (yea!!).
Then she says out of the blue " I don't know why I still don't feel any sexual attraction to you. It has been 6 months and still nothing. I can't imagine feeling differently."
My reply, paraphrased:"From what I have read, in books, forums etc, (listed a few female authors) is that it will take time, and we need to do small doses of spending time together, and...(risk mode "on", super calm and centered)stopping your cyber affairs will help speed the process, they are distracting from "us"...and that she had to make the choice to try to find me attractive in that way again.
Usually bringing that subject up would trigger uber-defensive mode in her. She was pretty calm...asked me to repeat..I did, brought up some of sandi2's statements...
She then said, "well, when I am in depression or anger I can't imagine feeling any other way at that time, so maybe that is what is going on."
I then validated her and told her, etc...later we had a nice quick exchange....and now this morning was pleasant as well...
Taking it slowly, trying to hide any hope/excitement signs in my facial expressions etc, keeping expectations low...trying to minimize mind reading...
any thoughts anyone?
T^2
My thoughts are that we all long ffor the quick fix. But reality has a way of slapping us in the face. HARD!
Just keep doing what you are doing, sounds like you handled it well!
Me personally, everytime my H tells me he has no sexual feelings for me, but tons for OW I just want to slap him!
thanks WenikiTiki, reading your threads...I don't know how you do it...
I think they have to tell themselves they have no feelings sexually for us in order to minimize guilt and/or justify what they are doing, which they know, deep down at least, is wrong...
The rest of the weekend was "interesting"...had a great time with my kids, had a great time helping others in the community...which led me to realize how tough others have it, and how good (by comparison) W has had it...
I may not be perfect, and, had that list above of things I failed at...but...come on...really?
Ugh...trying to turn off feelings of resentment today...I am tired. So tired...
I know I left that PMA around here somewhere...
Yes. I have that PMA. Here you go T^2. Thanks for letting me borrow yours till I could find mine.
Got a job today!!! Yeeee Haw. Starts Monday and I can't wait.
PW...that is excellent!!!!!
Thanks for the PMA
I may not be perfect, and, had that list above of things I failed at...but...come on...really?
Ok, feeling sorry for myself...
Vented and done...
Journaling:
T^2 received rave reviews from our kids teachers and the folks we helped in the community (all women btw)...these were received by W, when she told me all they said, etc...and how W was "so happy" (I can't remember exactly), I just replied with "Yup, I've changed"...
I am liking the new/recovered me! I can't believe I hid this person for so many years! The GAL activities have given me opportunities to be who I really am, and, gasp...people like me just as me. The value of GAL lies here. I am a good man/person, valuable, and will do just fine. That W got that outside feedback may have helped and is also bonus material.
I feel an energy change, noticing very small things more often...like checking in with me more like she used to, more "we" and "us" statements, she actually sought ME out a couple times recently. She has slowly taken a bit more interest in the house, etc.
I am writing down the small things in my journal so I do not forget and to look back upon if/when I get down/frustrated again.
Mild winter means more of my GAL can start sooner like bike riding to work, veggie garden prep, spring cleaning....camping!!!!
A good day...
More meditation, more prayer. Stay calm, focused, positive.
Knowing enough to keep expectations at or near zero, had good interaction with W last night...why do I have this faint, lingering resentment/anger floating around in my thoughts? It is very small, but present.
Got this off "Work thread for Jack - LBS Stages".
Maybe it helps.
Denial- Without a doubt the first phase. It could be as simple as denying that there is something wrong or amiss. Eventually turning to denial that it is actually happening to us, denying our part in everything, and the worse part.....denying our inner self's to come out. Maybe because we don't know how.....but at the point everything is caused by some outside catalyst. Sounds very MLC like to me?
Bargaining-I put this here instead of after anger because I feel the deep seated thought out anger is yet to come. We have felt the quick anger brought on by emotional pain and trauma, but not that thought out and reviewed anger that is to come. So we beg, plead, whatever it takes (during this stage I actually saw the positive side of an open marriage...granted my situation is only slightly different...LOL). We will do whatever it takes to save the marriage, yet haven't realized that the marriage is gone. dead! Fini!
Anger-This stage is third...why you ask? At this point our bargaining, selling of our soul, absolutely nothing has had the expected results. So we feel deep down anger and conviction that we are right...they are wrong....and We will win no matter who loses! This very well might be the hardest stage for anybody going through this. I have been scanning lightly in newcomers and see so many of that boards "mentors" stuck themselves in this stage. Trying to control what is uncontrollable out of anger and not based on sound decision.
Depression-At this point the energy involved with our anger is used up. We are burnt out......and now we are ALONE. Yes...we have been alone in the physical sense for some time, but the bucket is finally empty.
Resentment-Slightly different than anger.....more identified with long periods of being OK....then boom.....anger comes bursting back in very brief, but extremely intense blasts. I think it is almost a triggered response...a missed ball game, long weekend with a sick child, or coming up short on a mortgage payment. A catalyst disturbs the beast sleeping within.
Acceptance-I place this before forgiveness because I feel you have to accept the marriage is done before you can forgive the damage it's death has caused. At this point you know that you are alone. The resentment is gone because you accept that triggers from resentment are just yours alone to deal with. This is also a great time for personal growth. Confidence that you will survive on your own, that you can do thing yourself, and that the sun will still rise tomorrow.
Self-growth-Regaining on confidence continued. New perspective of the things around you. Constant questioning...of yourself and the principles we follow. At this point anything is possible....for ourselves.
Forgiveness-At this point you can forgive yourself for your part in the demise of the marriage. You can also see the pain the process has caused our spouse. The knowledge that neither party has really come out of this unscathed is apparent. You will know at this point that the journey was beneficial for both parties as long as neither got tripped up in their respective journeys. Maybe the marriage is renewed...maybe not.
Renewal-The world is different (I know that I see it differently). We are almost reborn to a life that that has unlimited potential. Things that were once taken for granted are cherished...and things thought essential are no longer that important. We are finally able to cash in on the independent self that we have found within ourselves.
Living again-At this point we move on, piece, whatever hand we have been dealt. Everything behind will be seen with compassion for the pain it caused and the enlightenment about ourselves that we achieved.
Thanks PW, I missed saving that in my "scrape and paste" library.
So, W emails me for the first time since this summer, asking about how I felt about her not doing certain things around the house anymore going forward...she was really nice, and honest about it and her reasons...
Trying (ok, just a little) to not mind read, but...
-Thoughts of future?
-Testing if M and T^2 will be better than before?
-??
arg! This is so hard to stay detached!!
Those stages I pasted have a bit of a negative vibe. The part about accepting the M being over and stuff.
Do you think you must concede the M to be over?
That only then you can "move on" to a better place?
How do you feel about that T^2?
Maybe I have taken it out of context.
Hmmm...I have taken it to mean that the M "the way it was" is over, and can't go back....whether MLC, affair, WAS...that something/enough things has been breached and you cannot repair it to what it was before.
Maybe like an engine...throughout the M breakdowns have been repaired, maybe some routine maintenance was skipped over and now your have a big repair...so much that the only viable way is a complete overhaul.
So, do you overhaul the existing engine, or go buy a re-built, or a whole new car?
I don't know if that metaphor worked, but you get what I mean...
Had 3 good interactions with W today...noticed an urge to push for more...heading out for the evening...need to think, alone.
BTW, Thank you PW for being here.
Sounds like you are making progress. Keep it slow and steady. Don't get wrapped up in this too much.(easier said than done)
Don't push.
Don't take little positives and go on the crazy train back to the way things were.
Just friendly reminders.
I hope everything is going good for you. Sounds like some heavy stuff may have been layed on ya.
I'm going to be out for a couple days. Maybe longer. Grandma's pretty sick.
Hang in there T!
Hey TSQUARED2!
Checking in to see how you were doing.
Sounds like some things are better. I like PW's advise!
Little hijack here, will put PW's Grandma in my prayers.
Aloha,
Wendy
Hey PW and Wendy,
Thank you for the positive vibes...
[venting]
some things are going better, yes, but the stress of the underlying tension is flowing out to the kids, so I had to deal with a few meltdowns today...ack....I just sometimes want to scream at W..."What you are doing is NOT helping our kids!!!!!" "WTF?! are you doing?!"
And then I got some alien spew from W, though candy-coated with "I know this seems petty, BUT...."
(Yes, it is petty, I agree with you 100%)
I AM SO SICK of the petty, nit-picky sh_t...I am a good man, not perfect, but good. I say NOTHING about W's uncontrollable flaws...oh, but she has a list of mine...so tired of the mine field..so tired of the affects on the kids...shoot, they intuit and know whats up, and she knows it.
[venting off]
Maybe this is the worst/darkest before the dawn and it gets better....
I think I got tested a couple times today, and I passed....
yeah, I 'effin passed...!
...W was there to see me rock/deal with/nuture the kids...
I feel so close to my kids...
My prayers out to PW's Grandma...My Grandma was a big influence in my life, and a steady, solid presence.
Grandma's rock.
[venting]
I realize that, I am going to make it.
Why?
Because F__k that.
Though not perfect, I am a good man.
Though not perfect, I am a good Dad.
Though not perfect, I have provided for my family.
Though not perfect, I have or am in the process of fixing my flaws.
Though not perfect, I am valuable.
Though not perfect, I am growing into a better person.
Though not perfect, I am a great person to have in your life.
If W chooses not to see this, then fine, f__k that.
In spite of my flaws, and previous someimes lack of showing it, I do cherish my W, I do cherish my kids
[venting/rant mode "off"]
I feel like this is where I need to be, a strong place, inside.
Any vets out there have any feedback on the sitch, 180's, GAL, anything??
Appears like I cycled back through some anger stage last night. It was there, and needed to come out. So hard to do this alone. I think I will try to stay out of my head today. Just be.
You said: So hard to do this alone. Yep. Thank goodness for the kind folks on here. I hate feeling so all alone. And the people in my life who keep calling me and checking in on me are the ones who have been divorced. They know the pain.
And everyone of them is happier than they were before. And I know that I will come out of this stronger and better. And so will you.
My sister had been through a n asty divorce, and then remarried a wonderful man. He died recently of a sudden heart attack. My sister says the pain is different. Because in a D you keep thinking you can fix it.
Stay Strong!
Thanks Wendy!
Had a great time with one of my kids yesterday (actually, all of them), but after the movie I had a flashback to the "panic" phase of BD with heart palpitations, the works, for 10 minutes or so...odd, I seemed to have flipped through emotions and phases this weekend as fast as an MLC'er...say, this MLC thingy isn't contagious, is it?
I had major sadness at all pain and frustration of life the kids, W and I are going through...ugh.
At least later last night and today I seem back on pretty well detached and calm.
Ha Ha! I think sometimes it might be catchy!
I know about the emotion flipping. I actually had to go on an anti-anxiety medicine. And give up caffine. And remind myself over and over that something or someone is triggering the panic.
Oddly, one of my panic triggers is when i'm around my granddaughters. I totally freak out thinking that OW will ever be in charge of taking care of them.
I shared this fear with my DIL and she initially said that she would only leave them with my H and then if OW was around she would be around. I then told her that of course he would go mow a lawn or something and leave OW in charge. My DIL realized it was likely and now says OW will not be allowed around the girls ever.
It may be somnething out of my control, but knowing my DIL shares my fear makes me feel better.
I am glad to hear you felt better last night.
Thanks Wendy!...what is interesting is this calmness has led to hearing faint sounds of the rope dropping....After the spew and aura yesterday and today...IDK, attraction is out the window when the alien personality is dominant and its ripple down effect on the family...IDK...idk....
Thanks for thoughts of Grandma, Wendy and T^2.
Grandma's do rock. She has always been there. Lived close and helped raise me. Best cook in the world. Always thinking of others. After she said so good to see you the next thing out of her mouth is have you ate yet. Ha. She is dying in a hospital bed and worried if I'm hungry.
She is not out of the woods. She is 89 and a failing heart. Not much they are willing to do as she is so weak... well you know.
T^2, sorry to hear of your struggles. It goes with the territory. Stay strong. The kids need that. H_ll you need that.
I think the key to all problems is do YOUR best. Feel good about being the best you that you can be today.
Don't we all wish we could turn back time? Go back and live at least 5 minutes of what was. That would be great.
We can't go back though. Only forward. Live in the moment. Good times will come again. Remember to cherish them as they happen.
We can't go back though. Only forward. Live in the moment. Good times will come again. Remember to cherish them as they happen.
^^^^^ so true.
I think part of my swings in attitude were triggered by cleaning out the email box and running across some of her emails to me from a year ago...so many "I'm in love with U", "LUV U" 's...what a difference from late last summer with BD forward...*sigh*...I miss that, and her. My 2 top LL's are words of affirmation and touch...neither have been forthcoming...
The week has been pretty good, W initiated several conversations (not R talks, though, which is okay) which went pleasantly and a couple went on for quite a while.
She also called ME at work to vent about her issue stuff (like in the "old days") and I feel I did a great job with my "STFU kung-fu" and validation...She had a lot of not knowing what to do/should do about lots of things...some insight into what is going within her...
Even when she said she "didn't know what to do about the R"...This is a change from the end of 2011 and Jan 2012 when she was pretty darn sure of what she thought she wanted...I STFU...though inside I was full of suggestions...
So T^2 did some nice 180's and didn't try to fix, suggest, control, etc ANYTHING!!! (Yea for me!)
When she was done she felt bad about "dumping and running", I told her it was fine, that's what partners are for...her reaction seemed pleasant to that, unlike before...so I will be grateful for and enjoy the positive.
In other news, my GAL is taking off...booking up quite a March (maybe W has noticed?)...meeting new people, doing new things...these make me feel good. Why I never did this before, I don't know (well, actually I do, but that is the past, never to be returned to...).
I have continued being very involved with the kids, both with school, their emotions and all (both good and bad)...this makes me happy.
Here's to a great weekend!
T^2
A song for the weekend....I wonder if Peter Gabriel was MLC when he wrote this (and I find it works for me as a LBS, strangely):
"Digging In The Dirt"
Something in me, dark and sticky
All the time it's getting strong
No way of dealing with this feeling
Can't go on like this too long
[Chorus:]
This time you've gone too far [x3]
I told you [x4]
This time you've gone too far [x3]
I told you [x4]
Don't talk back
Just drive the car
Shut your mouth
I know what you are
Don't say nothing
Keep your hands on the wheel
Don't turn around
This is for real
Digging in the dirt
Stay with me, I need support
I'm digging in the dirt
To find the places I got hurt
Open up the places I got hurt
The more I look, the more I find
As I close on in, I get so blind
I feel it in my head, I feel it in my toes
I feel it in my sex, that's the place it goes
[Chorus]
I'm digging in the dirt
Stay with me I need support
I'm digging in the dirt
To find the places I got hurt
To open up the places I got hurt
Digging in the dirt
To find the places we got hurt
[x7]
PETER GABRIEL
Nice song choice......
I wanted to say something about snodderly and the term "Twinkle Twat". It cracked me up in so many ways when she called my H's OW that.
Because one of the cutsie things OW does is say: "It must be Twue, It was on the internet." And my H started saying "Twue" instead of "True". And I noticed and started saying any word that began with a "T" like that. I'm twerribly mean like that. I never said why I was doing it, and it was funny how ticked off it made my H.
But he quit saying it. But it was a funny coincidence!
Have a nice weekend!
Wendy
Ok, so I was not too detached today...W answered the phone in her "old self" voice that just took me to remembering the W I love, and miss.
I was kind of cold to her this evening, I had a lot on my mind besides the R and her (new meetup group meeting (I'm kinda shy, so meeting new people can be a tad stressing at first), finances, taxes, work, etc, blah, blah), but she and R was mixed in there...
Driving to the meeting she called me and wanted to know if my mood had anything to do with her, after explaining the "non-her" things, I did just say, yes, I miss my best friend, not knowing where we stand is hard, and that I am not doing well with detachment today.
Now I am worried that may have been a backslide, OR, hoping that it was the right thing to say, that in MLC every now and then its good to let them know how you feel and what my experience is in this ordeal...she has been more her self lately...idk...I just went off instinct I guess.
Help!!!! any opinions?
Hi there T^2,
You know I think it's good to have moments of truth with them, especially if they are the ones that have asked for that clarity in the first place.Which that sounds like that's what she was asking for, clarification. You were very honest about it and I think that was healthy for you to express that and for her to hear.
I think where a backslide could happen is if we don't drop it after it's been addressed or keep trying to hammer it out....like I had a horrible tendency to do. My problem in that was never feeling listened to by stbx for years.So much stuff I needed and wanted to talk about. When I'd finally get his attention, keeping it simple was very hard for me.
It's hard when you see the person you remember and loved so much surface again. That's something Im struggling with now as well. I don't know what to make of it, so Im just taking it as an oppurtunity for me to keep sorting my feelings out towards him.
Thanks Kimmerz, it did do me some good.
Later we talked about it a bit more, today I have let it go...I still have the urge to hammer things out then and there, but I am resisting that tendency better than I thought I could. Today has been good interaction verbally, but she is avoiding eye contact.
Say, if you get a few minutes, could you look over my sitch, 180's, etc and let me know what you think...what am I missing, what could I be doing better...? Your experienced and female perspective would be much appreciated...Thanks!!
T^2
Hi T^2,
Sure I will be happy to help. I'll read and post back to you!
Kim
Hey T2
I read over some of your posts from the beginning. From my perspective I don't think you could've done anything better than what you've already done! You listened to what she had to say, applied it to yourself and made changes in you to help the marriage and changes for you as well.
You really have worked on you which in itself is wonderful. In regards to her online affairs, I can tell you without a doubt it never had anything to do with you in the first place. Maybe she made it sound like it did but it was never you.
What did you learn about "proven desirability"? Was this something that was suggested to you in the book to prove to her, or is this something she was searching for in her online affairs?
Oh... a wonderful book that would help any man learn about women, that really wants to learn about women is
What Women Want Men to Know by Barbara DeAngeles.
My stbx actually read part of it believe it or not. However I think all it did was give him directions on how to nail other women!
Hi Kimmerz,
Thank you for taking the time to critique my DB'ing...I do appreciate it!
As far as the "prove desirability", that was the motivation for the online/(maybe PA?) affairs, from her mouth. For some reason she needs/needed it from men besides her husband...until this latest dive into the tunnel, I have never found her "un-hot" and never neglected to try to let her know I think she is the hottest woman in my eyes (she has this unique look and "had" such a cherishable personality that just melted me). The "alien", however, not so much...
I hate it sometimes that my illusions have been shattered, but I am thankful at the same time...weird, I know.
I will try to find that book...I hope I can use it for my marriage, but if not, for the next R, if any...
Again, thank you for looking over things, I am always wondering if my logical, fix-it mentality is overlooking some critical thing that would move things forward...and your perspective, from a female, really helps me....I just don't see the man she described, in the mirror anymore...
T^2
Hey T!
You're welcome. I appreciate you explaining the "proven desirability" because this was an issue with me many years ago during the first 5 years of my marriage. I will openly admit that I got sucked into the online chat room - cyber ordeal. I never did have a PA with these people, just online cyber flings.
I was interested in what you had read because I had never heard of any such reason for affairs. I did discover many years ago through plain old soul searching and reading on emotional affairs that my reason for doing such was simply for attention from males.
My husband of course discovered these things and to say it hurt him is an understatement. When I tried to describe it to him then and even years later Im not sure if he really grasped that it truly was me and not him. I now know he never let go of that because he told me after he left and we started fighting about all this stuff swept under the carpet. However his actions for years afterwards indicated we were moved on from it, it was no longer a problem, and we were just a family growing together and raising our kids. I honestly didn't even think about it anymore. He was my husband, and I wanted him and only him. I realized what I did was for my own emotional issues and he was not a failure because I had them.
And thanks to you, I now know it was me needing Proven desirability. When I went through this. For me just knowing that I could have the attention of any man at any time, and them begging for more really boosted my ego. It made me feel desirable, but at the same time it wasn't real to me. It was more like a fantasy interaction that I could pull the cord on at any time. I never did want to meet these guys in person. However at the time I did question if my marriage was a mistake because I was wanting to do these things. I figured if I had married the right person that I wouldn't want to do that. WEll lord do I know that never was the case.
I had low self esteem in regards to guys in high school. I was very confused as to why everyone would tell me how gorgeous I was, girls always telling me they wished they looked like me, yet no guy that I would be interested in showed any interest in me. I felt there was something wrong with me. I wasn't thin enough, I wasn't pretty enough, my hair didn't look right, I was too loud, I was too quiet. Yet what's so crazy is that I was the farthest thing from a wall flower anyway! Guys just seem to love to keep me as their bestest buddies. Hells Bells that's what my stbx wanted to be when he left and freaking acted like it and still does from time to time. Maybe you can help me! Why do guys just want to be friends with a woman? Three of my closest relationships with 3 men in my life always ended up with them always keeping me in the wings as a great friend. Why do men do that?
I know you would never do that, but you're a man, tell me what you know...LOL!
Anyway T from a woman who did walk down the path your wife did briefly, Im here to tell you it wasn't you! My husband was very much like you in the sense that he never ever made me feel unwanted, unsexy, ugly, or anything. And very, very unfortuneatly it came at the expense of hurting him.
What I want to commend you on is for taking the time to set your hurt feelings aside and really look at why you're wife would've chosen to do that. You cared enough about her as a person and your marriage, and family to dig deeper and to try and understand WHY. My poor stbx didn't. All he saw and felt was a woman that betrayed him. He buried it down, and it just festered along with many other things. I know what I did was wrong, and I still regret and feel awful about it to this day. But I also own my mistake and I now know what was going on inside of me to do such things.
I now know that really started a horrible vicious circle with him and I. Because of that, He in a round about way finally admitted he's done nothing but spy on me for years. REading my emails, my letters, my computer activity, etc. While I can understand that, all that did was hurt him more in the long run. BEcause as time went by he and I started to have more marital problems and I would email my friends and family about it and vent. I needed support, guidance and to blow my stack. Yet he was reading it all along and NEVER said anything, but would act out because of what he was reading and therefore feeling.
You said you didn't see the man in the mirror that your W described anymore. I too have the logical, fix it mentality and I worry Im overlooking something too. I took a good look at myself after all the things my stbx told me he saw in me. I've scruitinized, looked, looked again, and still feel so stumped. The only thing I can really agree on with him is that I am not a good housekeeper anymore. Im not and I admit it. But his personal attacks against my character, dear God I just couldn't see it. I've been worried I've been in denial about some things, but I don't think I am.
I think what happened is my stbx was thrown into needing "proven desirability" as well after such horrible blows to his ego in regards to losing a job that defined him as a person. Also he started feeling very neglected as the duties of being a full time mom and in home day care provider left him on the back burner from me. The twisted part of this is..... and I now see it, is that I could tell he was feeling left out. I would try to reconnect with him, but guess what, HE DIDN'T HAVE TIME FOR ME BECAUSE HE WAS BUSY GAMING, TOO TIRED, TOO BUST, ETC. This was passive aggressive on his part and also him sabatoging me too. As I look back at things, that man has sabatoged me and the chance for our relationship to flourish at every chance. He even admitted to me he was too scared to get close to me because if he was rejected it would kill him. Though I truly understand that insecurity, it breaks my heart that he was too scared to try. WE surely had our issues, but damn the good things we had were good and such a good foundation to build a new on.
So what did he do? Left me and hooked up with the OW that's idolized him for years. She is safe, has NO EXPECTATIONS OF HIM, and he is in CONTROL. Im told by very good sources that everything is about stbx with this OW. Guess she does everything but chew his food for him.
Kimmerz
Haven't posted in a while...
W seems to be getting more and more insight and clarity...opening up to me more about what is going on for/within her. This was a big part of our R and it is nice to see it again after so long...helps me feel a connection. She said though, that now that she is starting to open up top me again, that she wants to "control the distance"...good thing I almost memorized Sandi2's sitch and posts as I think that means she doesn't want me to think all is better and back 100%...that I need to take it slowly and let her lead herself back to "us", for me not to go 150% blazing forward...and, yes, that is a valid point and one of my 180's... If anyone has any input or other interpretation I would love to hear it...
She has increased her involvement in the house and such, also a good sign as it has always been important to her, but slides during her depressive episodes...and yes I notice and praise/validate, which feels good to me as well. Since one of her/our issues is validation, I make an effort to notice things to praise/validate, it's not hard to do once you know and put yourself in their shoes.
There have been displays of anger and spew, BUT...there is lucidity now and she will inform if it has to do with me/family or just her (she may have to be asked sometimes as she has problems articulating when so angry)...and she will remove herself until it is passed.
We have had a couple issues, one was having to do with a big financial thing I am working on and I asked if she had any idea if for sure was going to leave us, as if so I would need to talk with a lawyer before proceeding to commit to the financial plan...at the time an argument started, and I refused to argue, fairly calmly stated my views and went to my office, annoyed with myself that I started a "R" talk.... She called me right after I got there (this is a change...not her standard operating procedure) and explained why she was so defensive, etc.
Another is when the kids and I came home a bit early and she was all involved with the webcam....she made a point, after I walked away angry knowing what she had been doing, to pursue me to tell me she wasn't webcamming with anyone, just doing local video for herself...and why (the aging/desirability thing)...I told her that I chose to accept her explanation, that I was choosing to trust (she knows that I could find out if she was lying or not if I want to). I hope I handled that well...trying to BE the example and pay it forward. Again, opinions welcome.
I did have a slip when I heard the "lovely" sound of IM activity (also, I had confronted her earlier on not looking up from the computer when I was talking to her, that it was disrespectful and did she mean to convey that message? She then made eye contact...)...I could not tell where it was coming from in the room I was in, so I asked W who she was chatting with...she wasn't, it was one of the kids...so I had to explain myself...that that sound triggers thoughts in me...ugh... she said she felt bad that she was the cause of my trigger, I told her I was sorry my reaction made her uncomfortable and that when I figured out that it was one of the kids, the annoyed or mad look on my face was my anger with myself that I slipped on staying out of what she is doing and letting her figure it (her cyber/emotional/possible physical affairs) out for herself. The rest of the night was okay after a while.
I am in this rather calm place where my gut/intuition is still staying it is going to work out, and my observations support this...
I mean, no one would clean, organize their stuff and work on decorating the house if they were going to leave it, they wouldn't talk about a few "future" things if they were truly feeling "done" with the R, right?
One thing, though, is she has trouble looking at me often, avoids eye contact, but not all the time...what's up with that?
Proceeding cautiously, fragility is still there, but not walking on eggshells either...just being the best T2 I can be, confident, caring
Thoughts, 2X4's, etc., welcome...
Ok...enough book writing...
Hey there Kimmerz....to answer your question:
Why do guys just want to be friends with a woman? Three of my closest relationships with 3 men in my life always ended up with them always keeping me in the wings as a great friend. Why do men do that?
Well, just my thoughts, but...You are an articulate, intelligent, insightful woman, seem to have things together and are responsible from what I have read...some men would be threatened by that, some wouldn't want to compete...IDK...their loss...
And, if you are like me (your profile birthday is just a few days away from mine)...you may have a tendency to let people into your intimate self very slowly...and IF they get in, then you are VERY loyal and it is a "forever thing"...in our society, time, patience and commitment are not popular concepts these days...imho.
T^2
An additional thought on this...
no one would clean, organize their stuff and work on decorating the house if they were going to leave it, they wouldn't talk about a few "future" things if they were truly feeling "done" with the R, right?
W is also organizing/decorating my stuff/space as well...and a figurine that my Mom gave her that represented me as a baby has re-appeared in her space after it being given back to me after BD...W is very artistic...symbolic and acts of service LL possibly? Easier for her than words from my experience...
You sound good T^2. Optimism is a powerful drug. Stay positive but have no expectations. Move slooowly. Mirror her. You know all this. Sandi2 has great information. You are doing fine IMHO. I strive to soak up and apply the knowledge you have gained throughout your sitch.
Hey T!!!!
Wow, your sitch sounds like it is moving forward in a very positive direction!
First of all I am so THRILLED to see how you two are communicating with eachother! This is key! About the "controlled distance".... this is good she openly admitted this to you. Personally, I would take this as a translation of " Ok. I feel safe enough to open up, perhaps put my toe in to test the waters, but I am in no way ready to jump in with both feet. I do not wish to alienate you or push you away, but I do need my personal space. Please respect that".
Though my stbx is the WAS, I have really felt somewhat pursued by him over the last 2 months. Not pursuit as in total reconcilliation, but I feel he wants to reconnect as parents that are very involved with the kids and therefore are rather involved with eachother about the kids. This has made me have mixed emotions about it all. All I know is that I need some space and time to get used to the idea and even figure out if that's what I really want. It's not that Im NOT open to this, but it needs to be SLOW. Therefore I can identify with what your W may be feeling, even if she is the MLCer. It's just a space thing!
If your W is organizing and decorating I would think this is an act of kindness...yes perhaps a Love Language. I know whenever I would do that sort of things for my stbx, I was trying to do something for him I thought he'd appreciate.
Very good observation T^2! Guess we must be the same sign....LOl! I let in the intiamacy very slowly and when someone is in, I am dedicated and very loyal. And yes when it gets that far, Im content with the idea of forever. I appreciate and like stability.
I appreciate you letting me know that to you I appear intelligent, articulate, insightful, responsible and on most days have my stuff together! LOL. I appreciate hearing that those qualities can actually be considered threatning or as competition to some men. My stbx told me that he always felt stupid trying to talk to me because he could never find the right words. At first I thought he was telling me I was verbally bashing him over the head with the way he articulated things. But I think what he was trying to tell me is that he struggles with articulation and expressing himself ( this is a very hard for him)and that during a conversation if I offer a way to re-phrase things (when actively listening so I understand him) maybe because I can do it so quickly, well that would make him feel inferior!
Never in 100 million years would I EVER want to make him feel inferior or anyone else. You know I've made a new friend online, and this is why his ex wife eventually wanted a divorce. This man is very articulate, intelligent, repsonsible, and has his act together. When he decided to go for his MBA, she started shutting him out and shutting down. I guess some time after the divorce they actually did talk about the issues, and that was her main reason. She was insecure and felt inferior and that he would dump her befause he was persuing goals and moving forward to educate himself. He said he was very devoted to her...and believe me he was.
Why can't people just be honest with eachother? I think there would be alot more understanding, compassion, and true intimacy if people would say "hey, when you do this, it scares me and makes me feel insecure. Im insecure that you will look down upon me and not find me worthy anymore".
I don't know, the more I look back at my marriage falling apart, I see how he and I were just so misunderstood by eachother.
Thanks PW!
I still have my hard times and moments, but once I get my mind and ego out of the picture and listen to my internal self, and observe EVERYthing I see and feel, then the optimism is there...and taking it sloooowwwwyyy is easier.
Yeah, Sandi2 opened my eyes...so grateful for her.
You are sounding good as well...any new updates?
Hey Kimmers,
Thanks for your input, I value it! This is the delicate "toe-dipping" time...I have to make sure I don't scare her back into the tunnel, or away and done by slipping into old habits...tricky trying to mirror my way out of "dim" mode. I am glad to know I seem to be doing okay with myself at this stage, and expectations are zero, though optimistic in the hope area.
My stbx told me that he always felt stupid trying to talk to me because he could never find the right words. At first I thought he was telling me I was verbally bashing him over the head with the way he articulated things. But I think what he was trying to tell me is that he struggles with articulation and expressing himself ( this is a very hard for him)and that during a conversation if I offer a way to re-phrase things (when actively listening so I understand him) maybe because I can do it so quickly, well that would make him feel inferior!
This sounds a lot like what W has said...man have I learned the art of STFU...(Its actually rather nice once I got used to it...)...
So much I have learned and grown. I like me so much better these days...:)
W just called me, and, apologized for putting me through "this"...I started trying to pry more of what that meant, but caught myself and STFU...I called back though and asked, if it was a good thing, or, bad thing (my imagination could build it either way)...she said good...
I don't know what to do...break down crying praising God, or "believe none of what they say"...I really, really pray this isn't another MLC mind-job, because, I don't want to be done...if it is.
I don't have all the big words for you. But maybe pretend like she is a wild feral cat you want to be friends with. Leave food out for her, make her feel welcome and NEVER make a sudden moves towards her..........
Thanks Wendy...
I appreciate your experienced wisdom (and man, what you have gone through...there ain't a medal for it, though there should be, imho).
I never thought I would ever have to have doubts about anything W said...now I know differently...and I HATE that I have doubts and don't trust without reservation....never thought I would be in this place...this eff'in place....
But that is what "AS IF" is for, no?
Tomorrow, and time, will tell all, eventually.
a wild feral cat you want to be friends with. Leave food out for her, make her feel welcome and NEVER make a sudden moves towards her....
Funny metaphor Wendy...W brought home a rescued cat from the river, poor thing wouldn't have anything to do with anyone, hid under the bed...now, she (the cat) rules the house in her mind, and lays on my heart chakra when I meditate...your method above worked...
Hey T!
Oh I hear you in how our minds can make these things a good or bad! Im constantly in that type of mode. Is this good or bad?
I think this is a good thing, based on her actions lately.
Remember the "toe dipping". Maybe instead of having one big toe in the water, she has both big toes in the water. Apologizing for the most part ( unless they are empty apologies, which I really don't feel your W is doing here) is a person admitting they've done something that could've been negative to someone in some way. That means they are acknowledging to a certain extent the role they played.
For an MLCer, this is HUGE!
And coming from a woman who's had ALOT of experience with feral cats....they do come around! Then they're yours for life!
There was a feral cat colony when we lived with MIL years ago....LOl
Journaling...
Well, this month marks the 1 year anniversary of the depression that marked the beginning of W's dive back into the MLC tunnel.
What I would give to have figured out it was MLC then and how to proceed via DBing, instead of after BD...lol...Let's see, maybe could have shaved off some of the 6 months in between? Avoided BD all together? Heh, woulda, coulda, shoulda...But then again, maybe I would not have been fully 2X4'd into realizing that I needed changing as well, that I had a journey to take...
As painful as it has been for W, I and the kids, I am grateful for it. Changes needed to happen, and we will be better for it, no matter how things turn out. I do now know I will never take things for granted again, and that every minute, every little thing, IS important, and valuable...they may not last, and should be fully appreciated at the time they happen.
I have grown into a much better husband, father, person...and I know now that it is a lifelong process of improvement, and this pleases me...sometimes, on my better days, I can't wait to discover my latest growth...the kids...W's...
W seems to be getting some clarity, resolution...and finding her voice and herself...this pleases me, it is what I have always wanted for her these past 20+ years. I grew up with a grandparent who was just basically unhappy with her life...I never wanted W to end up that way...that is why I can forgive...forgive the pain, forgive the affairs, the lies, the depression...forgive because I want her when she is 80 years old to look back on her time with me as a good life, to feel fulfilled. Forgive because I choose to, I want to, for me as well as her.
This has always been my goal, my intention, no matter if I/we got off track or whatever...
More later...
Just some updates.
Interactions have been going well.
The other day W was in a mood, I asked if it was anything I did or me, she said no, and that she has been meaning to tell me that she hasn't been angry with me for a while...and that she wants us to have the kind of relationship where we don't need/have to ask that question...I replied with that I am not going to make assumptions again, I have learned that hasn't served me well in the past...and that I agree...I want that kind of relationship as well, where we trust the other to tell us when it is us or something we did.
In another interaction I had the chance to tell of what I have learned about my LL's (she was surprised that touch was my main LL) and why I didn't really go for PDA's all these years ...I wasn't shown it by my parents relationship, fear of rejection, and that my 1st wife was a hardcore feminist and considered hand-holding, etc as displays of "possession", not "affection". W seemed rather receptive.
I have been getting more information about regular things in her life, rather than the privacy distance...I am letting her control the distance...
She came to our bedroom tonite and initiated some conversation...part of it involved (indirectly) her not having "those" feelings for me still...
I told her that I have advice from my forums and female counselors that it takes a while, longer than for men, for "those" feelings to return after the cessation of contact with the OP and the end of the affair, so I am not stressed about it right now, that I understand, though I may not particularly like it, a little chastity ain't gonna kill me...
I know W has a tendency towards guilt, so I hope I helped keep the road home paved smooth...
Comments, advice, observations, etc welcome as always...I have learned and grown so much here...
T^2
edit the above post....
though I may not particularly like it, a little chastity ain't gonna kill me... smile
Should have been its own sentence, as I did not say that to W, I was thinking it.
Ok, big breakthrough yesterday?
Going to NOT delve into all the details yet, don't want to count chickens before they hatch...for a logic-based person I do seem to have a superstitious peccadillo or two...
Talking with W yesterday about a family business issue unveiled that this issue was one of her lingering resentments/insecurities towards me and our M. After thinking through things, I apologized for MY part in the situation (not all of it, because she did have a role as well). I also went into how my family dynamics probably played a role in how we see it so differently, how it played a role in creating the situation, etc. I got an "interesting" look...she went about her business, though I could tell the wheels were turning...
Later, she came to me and thanked me for apologizing for my role (she acknowledged the change in me looking in the mirror, not avoiding self-reflecting and not avoiding taking responsibilty and apologizing...this IS a 180 for me), explaining the past, the whys, etc, and she now understood, and could forgive me, acknowledge her role, let go of the past and move forward.
Lots of "us", "we", "our family", and FUTURE projecting in her talk...she appears to be able to SEE that the R will be different than before now...my new listening skills REALLY came forth, btw...
i thanked her for sharing, touched her shoulder for a moment (she didn't cringe...yay!), and went back out to the garden, about my business, and let her be the rest of the evening...
Operation "Feral Cat" seems to have taken a big turn...Quietly hopeful, yet expectations set appropriately, haven't contacted her today yet, respecting her need to control the distance atm...no sudden moves...
The question is....was this the "mixed grill" or "ocean buffet" can of food.... lol...
BTW...Kimmerz, the book you suggested to me earlier really helped me notice and figure this lingering insecurity and WHAT it MEANS to women...my THANKS to YOU!!!! Added a lot of understanding in general to the new me!
T^2
Last weekend W was rather withdrawn, playing and singing a lot of songs, in her own world...I couldn't put my finger on it, but it occurred to me after putting together her song choices that she was acting like someone who just went through a breakup (we do have a teenager in the house, our oldest, so have seen this before, plus I do remember using music as a soother/clarity fixer in my life, a lot).
I wondered if it meant CyberAffair(s) and/or OM was GONE (!)...then my mind saw the other possibility...that maybe she was done with ME (!!)...ugh...
Note to self: DO NOT look up the lyrics of her music again, not good for PMA...I do not need to know if she felt/feels that way about OM (he was so wonderful and she loved him soooo much), or me (that I was that bad)...I just do not know, as she has not volunteered anything regarding the status of that issue, and I am not going to ask (yet). Eventually, if we get to piecing and reconciliation, I will need to ask for my sake if she doesn't volunteer it. In the meantime, I am staying out of the way.
This week has been going pretty well.
Conversations are going well, I am getting more glimpses into her mind and processes. I am wondering if she is cycling through the phases of acceptance as described by HB's "Stages of MLC" based on what she is reveling and her actions seem to be reconnection-based with the whole family and with life itself.
A couple times it seemed like she was lingering on the end of phone calls, and I had to end them.
Yesterday she initiated a hug after asking about my day (my day was not the best at work), and it wasn't a "sister/brother" hug, but rather a full contact, head on my chest type, and not a quickie.
Her actions, and my intuition, are saying positive things...I just would like verbal confirmation for me, it's one of those things that would be a LL and security. But I know her, I know it will be a while yet. Letting her lead.
I am looking forward to the weekend for the first time in a LONG time, and my GI tract is feeling the best it has since last June when I first noticed something wasn't "right" again.
What do you think Kimmerz? Is she up to the ankle, the knee, the ?, in the water testing?
T^2
One other thing...just an observation...in January, after the horrible holiday season, its affects on the kids, the spew and awful things W said to me, the cyber/phone affairs and suspected PA... I was going to kick HER out...now look where things are at...I am glad I sucked in my pride, detached and hung in there.
Patience, perseverance and the other ingredients in the "Recipe" can work I believe.
But the show isn't over yet...TBD...
Wanted to add to the last short post: the help from posters, the sitches here in the forum, the DB books, all the recommended books and resources...kept me going when I wanted to throw in the towel...even if for just one more day...
Hey TSquared2 I was just catching up on your stitch today and must say Wendy's feral cat analogy, literally made me laugh out loud!
Hi T^2.
I am so glad you read that book! Which was one it? Lol... I've suggested 2 of them so far.
Well Based on what you're noticing now with her behavior...wow. Ok I can tell you what it would mean if I were acting this way, but as we know I am not her, just like you said in regards to my xh.
First of all...just the fact that you two were able to truly communicate over that past issue and really address the sitch for what it was, and acknowledge the parts played in it by the both of you is WONDERFUL, and a HUGE STEP in my opinion.
Whats even so much more encouraging to hear is that she took some time to mull this over, and later came back to apologize to you, admit her role and the offer forgiveness to you is really a great sign.
You guys are communicating and resolving conflict one step at a time. If this is a 180 for you (coming to the table and admitting your role played and why you feel you reacted or did whatever you did at the time) this has got to be a huge eye opener for her. By doing that, you've proven to her that you've really worked on yourself. That shows you truly love and care for not only her and your children, but that you do love yourself. Taking a look at one's self and realizing the work that needs done is NOT FOR WIMPS. Admitting it is another. Good work my man! Good work!
And by doing this, you've actually created a safe place for her now. This will help her trust you and feel safe with you, especially if she's struggling with her own emotions and insecurities right now.
As a woman, I must tell you, when we lay our heads on a man's chest, that really means we feel connected to you.
In regards to toe dipping ....possibly mid calf. Getting close to knee height.
Once we get to knee height, it's very easy for us to fall all the way in at that point. Be ready to catch her when she's ready for a swim.
I wanted to say that it's clear to me that you and your wife are both very level headed individuals. It takes a level of maturity to just stop and think about what's going on when MLC and/or midlife transition occurs for the person that's going through the MLC. Ok, as we know most MLCers just flip out and run off screaming and yelling and blaming every one. They leave a path of destruction that's impossible to completely recover. It doesn't sound like your W did that. Even amongst her spew, she did stop and start to listen to you, and you gave her space. And then you worked on you and still do everyday.
And she's still there.
Yes, Wendy's Feral Cat metaphor is beyond purrrfect...lol! (sorry, couldn't resist...)
I couldn't have found one better....thanks Wendy!!!
Well I own a catamaran, that is named Catatonic, so I have cats on the brain.....
Thanks Kimmerz!
The book was "What Women Want Men to Know".
W's MLC has definitely given me my own "look at that idiot in the mirror" journey...lol. I hate to say this, but I do believe that I might not have "woken up" without it...I am/was such a creature of habit with a formerly huge stubborn streak (oh, and W has hers as well!).
And I don't know about level headed...ha! We both have our quirky sides, and it wasn't until maybe mid-February that she had hit bottom enough, and I had done enough work on me, and detached enough, before that mature thinking/talking even started...Before I started posting here was the time she "flip out and run off screaming and yelling and blaming every one.", except for the running off part, though she talked about doing that, A LOT...
I honestly think the kids are what kept her from leaving, and me from leaving or kicking her out during those bad times last fall and winter.
Mid-calf huh?
I am too tired tonight to write more, though there is more to say...time to unwind and just "be" a bit.
T^2
You crack me up Wendy!
Before I started posting here was the time she "flip out and run off screaming and yelling and blaming every one.",
Actually, the day I finally registered after lurking for a couple few months is the day she really spewed 200% and cut me up, down, cross-wise, filleted, and pate style and canned me for cat food...
I didn't really need to remind myself of that (or did I?).
Ha
Maybe to remind yourself that you are here to save yourself first....
Oh and back to cat stuff.
Some day I'll tell a funny story about, oh never mind.
Hi T...
I am so glad you read that book! I remember when I found it on sale and bought it a couple years ago. I was thinking " wow this really is a perfect user manual for us women. I think men should be given one in order to make his life easier!"
In regards to your W verbally and emotionally putting you in the food processor (slicing and dicing, etc.).... I think as we get stronger and as we progress with our work, it's not a bad thing to revist those details, but only when we feel we're ready. When we wait to do this, we will see this spew in a whole different light and perspective.
Earlier this week I sucked it up and decided to go back to the emails from my XH. That was my emotional and verbal food processing from him. My perspective on it now is completely different than it was a year ago.
When he first sent those, I couldn't bare to read them but 2 times.I thought I was crazy, I couldn't believe how he was speaking to me, for he had never spoken to me like that in our entire relationship...ever. I was devastated.
But this time around, I was able to read that without taking it personally and looking at it objectively, as if maybe it were a friend asking me to read this from her WAS/MLCer. This time what I saw was someone taking absolutely no responsibility for their issues or emotions. Someone playing the complete victum. It was almost as if he were in complete denial of his very own life that he chose to partake in. Also in complete denial of how he sabatoged many things, yet pointed the finger at me.
So T, tread lightly. Looking back really isn't a bad thing, but only when someone is ready.
Things continue to flow, to change...
This weekend W really opened up about her pain and frustration, she allowed me to hold her as she cried on my shoulder for quite a while. Our youngest came in and I gave him a wink when I saw the concern on his face, his look then transformed into something priceless....
W has initiated a lot of phone contact, talking a lot about her stuff and whatever of daily life, she is hanging at the end of conversations as well.
Monday evening our oldest needed some rescuing, vehicle issues....I was totally calm after just a wee bit of frustration at first (we DO NOT need any repair bills at this time!) I had to go tow him back to civilization, ruining my plans of a joyous evening of doing taxes, lol.
I think I showed my changes because as I was walking out the door, W wanted to give me a hug, it was a long one and she...said...ILY (!) and gave me some words of affirmation LL (!).
During one phone conversation she said that she wasn't sure if she should tell me this, but she thinks she is going through withdrawal from the cyber(affairs/OM...I do not yet know what all she may mean or has done) and all.
I am seeing a few different personalities rotate through the day(s), some depression, withdrawn, processing but some good mood as well, and some "ah-ha" statements...so...
But now the question that has been circling through my mind...am "I" ready for this, and, do/can "I" trust?
Trust this development?
Trust again for life?
:\
And what bothers me the most is that I no longer "see past" her flaws, and wonder if I still find her attractive like I used to....
Or does that come back as time progresses?
Maybe its just the LBS PTSD caution after all the damage wrought, idk...
Tomorrow will look different I can trust...
T^2
Well, this last weekend W cycled into withdrawal/depression, but she was aware of the wall she put up and acknowledged it.
I am confident OM existed now, without having to snoop, but whether just cyber/EA or if there was PA, still unknown and not a deal breaker...maybe this is the cause of the withdrawal/depression, along with some realizations she is expressing...idk...just trying to keep myself, my patience, my family and be the best dad, friend and T^2 I can.
Feeling a little low, having to be responsible for so much...having to cut out some solo GAL activities due to time and finances...have to focus on the kids and bigger priorities (job, finances, etc...what is best for the family).
idk T^2... i think the new moon affected a bunch of people this past weekend...
what's the inverse of a werewolf...?
errr... i guess that's a human...
lol
She's now "wading mid calf" T^2!
Perhaps it's time you kind of "wade" around yourself.....meaning, take your time to get a little more used to an akward situation and process your feelings.
I can understand how you would question if you're still attracted to her or not.
Personally I think that happens with time. As trust is regained, then it feels safe to be attracted again.
I find it very encouraging that she's being so honest with you, about some deep things going on with her. It shows she trusts you.
lol, Thanks Kimmerz!
I did and am processing those feelings and trying to get used to an awkward sit...I have this fear of screwing up just as I am reaching my goal (and justified...I have seen me do it!)
Having been "dim" for so long and it's built in stress (and now a habit) I find I am unsure of how to proceed sometimes/a lot of times (stir the pot? stay back still? what's my intuition say? is my intuition wrong?, etc). When I know what I want, usually there is little to stop me from pursuing that which I want, except now...I DO KNOW...but my usual MO may not be useful, may even be counter productive, so there sits my sword of Damacales....
This whole in-house separation has been very awkward, and I am tired of awkward, yet to have any hope of R, I must continue to be in an awkward state...ugh...that doesn't come pleasantly for someone who likes some stability, some ability to plan long range, likes some predictability (but not too much...lol...that has been one of W's complementary poles of our R, her unpredictability, and, though she may not admit it presently due to MLC/whatever, I believe she actually appreciates these things about me, as long as I don't over do it.)
Attraction? Yes, time, and definitely trust, I agree with you. For me, I also am sure there is a "look", a facial expression, a vibe... that is intimately involved with me being attracted and able to "overlook" flaws...I thought I saw "it" last week a couple brief moments. But then she has her "alien MLC" facial expressions/vibe that are a total turn off.
I never thought of attraction being related to feeling safe, I thank you for that insight, it rings true...have to ruminate on that some more....
I am pretty sure I am ready for the swim, awkwardness and all...and as I have read here so many times...you will KNOW it, when they are ready to walk the road home...and even if I am wrong, I can risk that swim for our kids...I was told recently that they know what I have done here, the example I have shown...so, yeah, I can do this. Funny how they pickup on things and really know what's going on...
Op Feral Cat status improving...
T^2
Oh, and I did do a couple of small pursuing things I guess...
I left a card, not too emotional/pursuing, thanking her for being a big influence in my life and that I wouldn't want it any other way (it took her a couple of days to find it...and I did check the trash and recycling...its not there...).
A couple of small vases of flowers from the yard have shown up without a word from me, or anyone...
The "old" me would have been sniffing about looking for recognition...the new me just does it because...I just do that.
T^2,
I am absolutely amazed at your dedication and committment to your W, and Dbing. The patience you've shown is just amazing. You took this time to reflect upon yourself and make changes you wanted to and saw fit. And you've stuck to your plan. Well done!
I have to compliment your wife as well. She's not running, she's still there. She's still talking to you, and she's still communicating to you on her own accord. You know I look at you and how you handle this so beautifully and at first see that I could never do this because I don't have the patience. But then I realized that you have one BIG thing working in your favor, which many of us LBS don't. A spouse that didn't leave, is actually taking this time to reflect upon herself, and share it with you. And then you who has learned all you can about MLC and how to handle it.
Things are looking good!
Thank you Kimmerz, I appreciate your compliments...!
As far as the "in-house" vs. physical separation...there are pros and cons to each, as I have learned here, such as this from snodderly:
Like I mentioned earlier, it is difficult when your mlcer is around because you never know what is the right or wrong way to "handle" them.
She is exactly right on with this, it is a fine dance on a razor's edge, and emotionally tolling. But, the WAS has a chance to see the LBS changes daily, but then again the WAS doesn't get the reality bounce and/or smack of moving out, the pain of hurt kids, etc...
I did consider moving out late last fall and winter, and my IC suggested it (omg, those days were the worst, the spew, the hate from W, the pain of the kids, etc)and thanks to the posters here I realized that I wasn't going to leave our kids, our house, our bed...I didn't ask for this, I didn't want this, and I got my priorities straightened out and knew what I wanted...and the $ wasn't there anyway.
Come January I wanted to kick W out, I was "there". I was done. I even spent a week on a singles site (we all do this, don't we? My self-esteem needed some reality checking and re-assurance after the holidays with alien spew monster, and yes, I was totally up front about my sitch). There I kinda re-discovered that I am a good man (I knew this deep inside, but wanted/needed external validation), and there are women who would value me, especially with all the learning and changes I have done for myself. Funny thing is, they were all around my age or older...I guess one of my "requirements" in a new R is that they have been through menopause and also have been through their MLC, if any...I don't want to go through this again if possible, so that excluded the under 35 crowd.
A self-discovery note: I found that I was capable of malice, as I took brief evil pleasure in the thought of asking W for her webcam for my use ...I didn't like this about me, and worked through it and never followed though, and killed my week of "single-ness".
I also learned that I wasn't "done" yet with W and our R...just didn't feel right, that I did still love her, deeply. I wasn't done and would fight for us.
So I manned-up, got some more focus, determination and some more detachment and here I am.
As far as W, I do know that she wanted to run, escape...and for a while it was probably only the kids that kept her at home (and oh did she ever cook up some scenarios to completely cake walk forevermore in her alien mind)...
At the same time, I have never really believed she truly wanted out, deep down. I think she wanted escape from her pain and responsibility, those demons from her past...and she wanted me to change, and I wasn't getting it, wasn't listening for so long.
There would be times that she felt I was getting close to done (yeah, she can read me VERY well after 20+ years, and I have never been able to hide my feelings well, and have ALWAYS lost at poker) and I could swear I saw fear...fear that I didn't have the fortitude to see her through this, that I was going to leave or whatever. In some of her breaking moments, her words skated around this, but the underlying feeling was there, however cloaked.
I think that by my changes, letting the A(s) run their course and the OMs to show their true selves as they eventually do, and by sticking it out that she may be or is including me in her staying now, and hopefully not as a second-choice, chopped liver option because the OM didn't work out (lol, my ego does not need that bruising on top of everything else, though in all reality it may have been/may be part of the decision/deciding...like the details of her A(s), I don't really need to know right now, if ever...
).
I didn't think, many, many times, too numerous to count, that I had the patience either, Kimmerz...but I kept finding it, one hour/day/week at a time. I know that some of the tools of DB made that patience appear...the solutions journal, the gratitude journal (there was one day where my only entry was that one of our cats napped with me, it was such a bad day with everything in life!), the GAL, the forum...I also have been setting dates in the future where I reflect on where I am at, if I want to continue, etc...after those dates, whatever I decide will be followed through until the next self-check in...the last one was March 21st, the next this summer. That has helped me stay on track and put the "deciding" stress out of my head (mostly)...
W's self reflection started surfacing shortly after the time when I was "done", though I know it has been going on underground throughout. Interesting how when I was "done" is when W started opening up.
One thing I do know now...I am going to make a great H for some woman someday with all I have learned and grown in addition to my built-in kindness, dedication and other good qualities...I want it to be W.
Wow..(no, not THAT WoW)...guess I got opened up and wrote a novel...
T^2
Thinking some more about the "in-house" separation thingy, one of the disadvantages is that not only do you have to continuously figure out how to deal with WAS in the moment, but also "keep" yourself all.the.time (or try to...), not let them see the pain, the longing, the anger, the frustration...unless I left for a walk or whatever, I never had "down" time to just let it out without W knowing (besides the closed door double flip-offs...lol). That does get tiring, and is stressful, especially for as long as these things go on, and on. Those/these days after I finally got me some detachment were/are like gold.
I do give W a lot of credit for staying, and eventually starting to open up, especially given her upbringing and old MO of "run". I am thankful, and thankful I haven't had to encounter her moving out, that would have been horrible for the kids...so I AM thankful.
W was distant and avoiding eye contact again last night, and of course my monkey-mind gets creating all sorts of theories...just processing? backslide on contact with OM or cyber? just "one of those days" ?...ugh, and, *sigh*...
W called this a.m. with a question, and while I was looking it up, she said there was a fireman in line with her, maybe he knew the answer, and made a joke that "could" have been taken sexually (maybe it was a test??)...that hit me wrong and stirred up jealousy and mistrust (but I did not let on that I was bothered)...that was never a part of our relationship...before that would not have bothered me at all...I hate having lost that trust! The old controller in me wants to confront and get some answers (damn these old ways die hard). I do know that that trust issue and loss needs to be addressed by me internally, and eventually in MC if we make it...idk...gotta find me a stick of detachment around here somewhere...
Oh T^2!
Just by recognizing the feeling you had you did great!
My in house separation isn't working so well for me, either.
Here is some detachment for you:
DETACH<DETACH<DETACH<DETACH<DETACH<DETACH<DETACH<DETACH
Now just break off a chunk and use it whenever you need it!
Aloha,
Wendy
lol, Thanks Wendy!
From what I have read on your sitch, you have the in-house tribulations thing WAY, WAY worse than I do...if W acted like your H, for as long as he has, I don't think I could have handled it, at all, omg...someone would have been moved out for sure.
It is funny how we can be going along all detached and coping okay, then some little thing sets off a trigger and bam! it is all in front of our face and taking over our minds and hearts, again.
Breaking off a piece of detach....back to trusting God, the universe, etc. (oh, AND trusting ME!).
T^2
Well, since I seem addicted to analyzing everything, I think that her backing off after the big hug and ILY last week was just like a feral cat coming closer to your hand...maybe she came close, then realized what she was doing and backed off a few steps to re-assess. Love the feral cat metaphor, it seems to fit soooo well.
Good thing is that she seems to have taken a couple steps back towards me...last night we were working on the kids homework and in close proximity, I really worked on my communication, and knowing that one of her issues is lack of validation growing up, I kept validating her good ideas/solutions, whereas the old me would not have, only just because if it makes sense, I didn't feel the need to say much....not any more...I just didn't know, now I do, so no excuses.
We also had a great phone conversation today (just general life things, no R things), almost like the old days...I could hear it in her voice. Funny thing is she abruptly said that she felt the need to go when things were going so well...hmmm...more cat backing off? I ended the conversation without issue or hanging on, respecting her need for controlling the distance.
Another thing is whenever I say or do something that she likes or works, she says "I don't know if I should tell you, but <insert what I did/said here> works/I like/etc"...she said the same line regarding going through withdrawal from cyberA/OM posted previously...am I being messaged?
T^2
Ok, I can answer my above question fairly confidently...I just don't get the "I don't know if I should tell you" thing...
Okay..... the "I don't know if I should tell you" thing feels to me like she is pulling back towards you, and that scares her that she is doing the wrong thing.
More feral cat stuff.....
And again, be glad she can see that she is having feelings that confuse herself. Recognizing feelings is a big step.
Thanks Wendy,
That does make sense. She seemed like she was so sure that she was done with our M back last fall/winter, and most of us humans don't like to think that we might have been wrong...and that probably brings up the damage thoughts, etc...
Another thing I thought of after reading your reply was that maybe she worries that I will latch onto what she said and think things are all better too soon, or that I will revert to old behaviors, or that if it is something I have done right, that I will over-do it (and yes, I tended to go to 150% when I found something that worked in the past...).
Your feral cat metaphor should be stickied as a classic...
T^2
TSquared2~ When you said this, "It is funny how we can be going along all detached and coping okay, then some little thing sets off a trigger and bam! it is all in front of our face and taking over our minds and hearts, again." It really spoke to me.... I've been feeling a LOT like that this week! It's nice to know I'm not the only one who feels that way sometimes.
Also, when you said, "Well, since I seem addicted to analyzing everything..." made me laugh, cause I do the same thing.... I like to think I'm in recovery for it though!
Hi T^2,
Yes Wendy's Feral Cat metaphor is perfect. I think that's pretty much what's going on with her. I think that perhaps something may feel right, and she will go with it. It then confuses her. She probably is confused at herself for thinking she was completely done at one point, but finds herself becoming closer to you, or starting up with positive and comfortable dynamics with you again, that feel good. She's getting the warm fuzzy feeling again.
I'm pretty sure that's what was going on with my Xh for a long time and still does to this day.I always felt that at times he forgot he was divorcing me. I know it happens with me too. Sometimes when I find myself feeling the same confusion the MLCer does. I find myself almost acting that way too, I guess with my rollercoaster emotions. I've questioned several times if Im having a crisis myself. But Im pretty sure it's just a transition.
I too am addicted to analyzing things. However my job requires me to be analytical, so I guess this is my nature. All I know is that if I understand the root cause of things, well then everything runs much smoother, even if it's not a smooth sitch.
There is a reason for everything. Everyone has a story. And sometimes it takes analizing to finally come to the point to realize we just don't know everything either...LOL.
I still admire your patience with your sitch T^2. You know I once had all your patience. But it's been worn extremely thin over the last several years. I think if perhaps my sitch were to move forward in more positive ways I would have become more encouraged and found more stamina to not give up. But it just seemed more and more happened that just kept me discouraged.
That's what I admire about you T^2, you're still hanging in there. And she is giving you encouraging signs.
Faith is the beleif of things to come but not seen. You still have Faith at this stage of the game.
Thanks folks for the input...I appreciate it!
Having a tough day...last night W talked A LOT about what is going on for her...interesting things came out after a tough weekend...
"...Where have I been for the last three years?..."
"...our R situation..." (all I could do to keep my mouth shut on that statement... lol)
Etc
Sounded like some fog clearing...much as I hate the LBS lifestyle, I wouldn't trade it for the MLC lifestyle, ever.
But I am tired today, have a lot on my plate with kids, work, problems in life, loneliness, as we all do, trying to keep the pieces of life somewhat together...my mind keeps drifting to issuing an ultimatum, be done with it, find a FWB, etc.
God grant me yet another helpin' o' patience, with extra gravy, please.
I will be better later, or tomorrow.
T^2
TSquared2 sorry to hear you are having a rough day, I really wish I had something witty or really profound to offer but I don't. Deep cleansing breath.... it will all be ok....... and another deep cleansing breath....... and another until you feel the patience starting to return.
You can do this!
T^2,
I know how hard it is when you have your fill of plain old Life, and then we have the MLc issues coming in on top of that. Sounds like you and I had the same type of day! Im pretty beat from extra work hours, too tired to tidy up the house, kids getting lazy and mouthy, and Im feeling lonely too.
And I don't know what to cook for dinner.....LOL!
You know it sounds like the fog is clearning some for her, which is good! Im glad to hear that. Im glad to hear she's at least verbalizing what's going on in her head. I know it's got to be so hard to hear at times. Is she still placing blame? Are her emotions like a rollercoaster still? Im curious as to what goes through their head when the fog clears a bit.
Yet at the same time T^2, the issue of patience is very significant. Quite frankly I don't know how you've stood it so far, but I think very highly of you for doing so. But there comes a time where you do have to choose what's best for you. It sounds like you've done a real good job of keeping your regular life going and doing GAL stuff as well. Yet you remain in the same house with the MLcer...it must be so odd. It would feel like life going on, but still so much on Pause at the same time. Just waiting for this person to make a decision.
Big Sigh..... just another day in paradise!
Thanks hrm and Kimmerz, you postings helped, and gave me some things to think about.
I stirred the pot last night...not a backslide, as I was asking R questions for me, not out of reactivity...see, I know W, she will avoid, delay, etc just about any decision, or communication of something important, until it's the last minute, do or die, etc. If I don't ask occasionally, I will not know.
The responses: She feels horrible for what she is doing. Doesn't know how I can deal with it. She has all these other personal issues to deal with, resolve, etc before she can work on "us" (I agreed with her here, btw, I believe her demons from the past and built-in envy, etc, need attention first, plus it will make working on "us" easier if they have some mileage under them). She is not ready to work on "us", "just yet"...with W, I know what that means (ie, not done).
Of course, me asking or bringing up the R is stressful to her for the above reasons, and also as Cadet and others have said here....pressure...so I am done stirring for a while, until maybe next self-check-in day this summer. The interesting thing is that after the "interaction"...she emailed me right away (unusual)with just some life business thing, and later a text (she never texts me anymore) apologizing, doesn't want to hurt me, but can't hide how she feels. I did not respond (usually I would, so a 180).
Later when home after work she was looking at me A LOT (she has been avoiding eye contact mostly lately), was friendly, so idk...
Guess I'll freshen up the food bowl and go back inside for a while...
T^2
oh, and the pot stirring was in response to something she said about being "bothered" by her distance....and apparently one of the kids has said something about it to her...so something she is pondering herself without me bringing up anything.
And Kimmerz, a VERY apt description:
Yet you remain in the same house with the MLcer...it must be so odd. It would feel like life going on, but still so much on Pause at the same time. Just waiting for this person to make a decision.
You know T, I tell ya. I guess Im kinda coming out of my own fog too. As I look back, I did live with the MLCer and was just sitting around waiting for him to come out of whatever this funk he was in, as the girls and I just carried on with life. So I do know how this feels. Honestly I think being alone now is better than having to live like that, for me that is.
Im glad you decided to discuss a few R things with her. Remember you have your boundaries and needs to. It's nice to check in and check the water yourself from time to time. Im just glad she gave you an answer!
You have something I didn't. Your spouse is talking to you and is willing to explore this. Mine never did till he was ready to leave.
Have you read Relationship Rescue by Dr. Phil? You know I was reading on the Hero'spouse something that I thought was very valuable. Your regular marriage counseling books don't work with MLC because you can't work on your marriage during MLC. It's a one way street! That made me feel alot better.
You know T^2 as I read your story as it unfolds with each passing day, it helps me see some things. It really is true the that MLCer need to stay in touch with the spouse and family. They really do want us as friends to lean on as they go through this. I really hope she continues to keep walking through that fog, and once its cleared will be able to look back at how you supported her through this.
A disjointed post...still sorting through all this....ugh.
Well, mid-last week I made a huge leap of progress, for me. I opened the gilded cage door for W.
W was spewing a bit regarding me saying that when I came home from work she "got off the computer and scurried away to the bathroom" (yes, I was stupid for saying it...). She was saying how she needed to leave so she wouldn't have to deal with this sort of thing, etc.
In a firm voice, I said "Then.Leave."
Spew stopped immediately. She wanted to go to a room farther away from the kids. She said something like "What are you saying?" And with lots of HPD/BPD physical antics and milder spew (not directed at me).
Dialog (paraphrased):
I said "I love you, I want us to work, but DO NOT threaten me and the kids with leaving...ever again."
Antics stopped...a quiet voice, "I wasn't threatening"
"W, it is threatening to the kids and I"
Pause...long...
"Please don't ever refer to me as "scurrying" again".
We de-escalated the interaction from there.
W was pretty nice and "regular" the rest of the week until Friday, then I feel like she cybered while kids were in school/work and me at work...because when I got home Friday afternoon she was in a bad place, NO eye contact, really pushing me away, her behavior was similar to mine when I would slip quitting drinking too much...and my gut feels this is correct, seen it before, many times.
So I went dim the rest of the weekend...then Sunday she was really in a "place"...ending up leaving the house for a while, on a bad note...
She emailed me this morning, apologizing for not being able to talk and being angry.Turns out she had a lot built up.
There was another old issue of our R that she dug up...man, when I have read that women have long memories, they are right! I had totally let this issue go, but she hadn't. Have women dealing with MLC H's been blindsided by things that were long ago "resolved" or over (but not really)? I apoligized, said that certain parts I didn't remember it the way she did, etc. Heck, I am not some dictatorial man who doesn't consult with his spouse before major changes, purchases, etc...
I have stayed dim today, not responding immediately to emails and such...tonight she has been calling and letting me know her plans to go to bed early, etc...(?).
I have been staying off the forum to see where my new found "Then.Leave" sits with me...I think I am here: If she wants to reconcile and work on us, then I am 200% there, I love her...if she wants to leave, then fine, leave, I will raise the kids and we will get by. It feels weird, but strangely "right"...is this detachment?
I am thankful that W apologized, recognized what was goin on with her and communicated it.
I am thankful that I finally, finally, finally faced my biggest fear (her leaving), and let it go...let it go to God...I promised our kids something, that I wouldn't quit. That I wasn't going anywhere. That will not change.
Well done, T^2.
Well done.
That sounds like detatchment to me.
T,
You did what you needed to do. By letting her know that she no longer has the power to control you and the children, she came to realize that she now needs to make up her mind to either stay or leave. She now knows that she can't use "threats" to leave now. They become bullies in mlc and want to control everything and everyone. You, my friend, did the ultimate in power play...you took it away by opening the cage door.
I did the same thing many years ago, and my xh sat down on the sofa and just bawled his eyes out. When I asked him what was the problem w/my telling him to leave he said that he didn't know what he wanted to do, that he was confused. From that day on, I lived my life as if I were alone. He eventually moved out two weeks later while I was at work. The guilt became too much for him and that's why he ran.
The fear of them leaving is their "key" to controlling us. I'm very glad you have overcome this fear. You and your children will be fine. If your wife does leave, you will discover that walking on eggshells is what all of you have been doing for quite some time. In time, peace will come and you and the children will be able to laugh again in your home.
You are doing a great job in handling your situation!
Thanks Kimmerz and snodderly...
I didn't mean it as a power play, it was just what happened and where I was/am atm. I do believe a higher power guides us, so I am at peace with what I did.
Part of me wants to push for the answers I want/need...such as what her intentions are regarding leaving ("I wasn't threatening to leave" is rather open-ended, isn't it? She has withheld the "2nd part" of statements many times through this...), if the A's are done, or in process of being done, etc... just a few things to keep me from feeling used...I see actions (like she has been wanting to make me breakfast again before I go to work, and other things noted above)...but no words...
I keep reminding myself of "believe none of what they say".
I can wait to work on the R while she processes her past demons and all...I know it is necessary for those to be resolved somewhat first...but, as Kimmerz said above, this "Pause" button is wearing on me...I have been trying to ask myself when trying to figure out what to do each day "If I were alone, what would I do?" i am also experimenting with not wearing the wedding ring yesterday and today (but it is in my pocket)...feels weird and not right...idk...maybe W noticed because she is very symbolically oriented...and I know I am sending a message of sorts...I hope the kids haven't noticed and are worried that I am quitting though....ugh hate my reality atm....
So when pondering whether to push or not, I threw an I-Ching hexagram...I will quote from another website the result:
Hexagram 5 -- PATIENCE
Patience is a quality everywhere evident in the natural world; all things need time and optimum conditions for growth and ripening. There is a story about a little boy who encountered a newborn butterfly that was struggling to emerge from its chrysalis. The child, wanting to help, held the damp creature in his palm and pulled it free. The butterfly died.
Why did the butterfly die when it was helped along in its emergence? Because it was rushed. The child, with the kindest of intentions, hastened a natural process and fast-forwarded a timeless cycle.
Destruction comes when we push too hard towards completion. We live in a world that enforces a frenzied pace -- relentless occupation and constant doing is the rule. Is it any wonder that so many sudden deaths occur through heart failure and stroke, that people of every age abruptly break down from the chronic stress that pushes us to live as if we are in a constant state of emergency?
It's interesting to note that the words "emergence" and "emergency" are only one letter apart. Emergence becomes emergency when its organic pace is rushed. There are times of crisis when it is wise and necessary to act in haste; otherwise, we can look to the evolving butterfly that emerges in its full beauty and power only when left alone to unfurl its wings in a natural cadence.
When we are at peace, when we know our right place and pace in the unfolding of events, we do help things along.
"Do you have the patience to wait
until the mud settles and the water is clear?
Can you remain unmoving
until the right action arises by itself?"
(Lao Tsu)
Ironic...guess someone is throwing a hint to me...
Some good news, the financial dealing I was working on went through, should take A LOT of pressure off in that arena of life for me, and will probably help W's pressure as well...sad that I can't share this news with her the way I want to...
Now if I can get my new part time online business generating some revenue life would be looking rather good, and maybe that energy would flow to my M sitch...
Oh well, any thoughts appreciated, especially on the actions vs. words and W's open-ended "half statements"...
The people here just rock...
T^2
Couple of questions for those with experience...
Since our anniversary is coming up soon, what do I do? Do another gentle, non-pursuing card of acknowledgement? ...say nothing?
Also, my next "self-check-in" date is coming up in a few weeks, so....if I decide to give W an ultimatum (hopefully not! hopefully things will be progressing in a positive direction enough), do I let the kids know first (to see how badly they would take it), or do I let W know, see what she decides, then have us tell the kids together?
I don't want to give this idea too much energy right now, but I do need to plan so I am not making a rash, emotional decision at the time.
T,
I am going to offer this...purchase a card that isn't mushy and give it to her if this is something that you would normally do. However, I want to caution you, please do not be disappointed if she doesn't recognize the day. I wouldn't do anything else to recognize the day to her.
Ultimatums do not work well w/mlcers. If you give her an ultimatum, please plan to carry it through and do not back down. I wouldn't share anything w/the children until everything has been finalized. This is between you and your wife and whatever the outcome is, it is shared w/the children w/both of you being present.
Don't force the issue unless you are ready for the consequences/fallout. Go back and re-read your earlier posting about the butterly. Sit quietly and the answers will come...you need to turn this over to God and allow him to do the necessary work...
Thank you snodderly...that was pretty much my plan regarding anniversary...
I really don't plan on issuing an ultimatum, I almost traveled that path in January when things were REALLY bad...I found the patience to wait some more....and I know they don't always work as expected....and I wouldn't like one myself, so...I skipped that plan.
I am just one of those who like to have all the data possible for any scenario as much ahead of time as possible.
I appreciate your postings, no matter whom they are for...
I understand the planning for any scenario, but there will be times you may have to "wing it" w/the mlcer.
You are doing great and if you can be patient a while longer, I do believe you will have some answers to some of your questions and then will be able to move forward a couple of steps.
Hang in there!
Totally in agreement with Snod, as usual...
I completely agree regarding the importance of spontaneity in regards to our spouses. For example, I might have been vaguely invited to supper at W's for mother's day. Unless she asks me directly, I can only assume not. But I can at least make plans for that day that could change to include an invite IF it happened.
Regarding anniversaries or mom's day and stuff like that, I'm the "say nothing" camp. But I have seen a few olive branches as Snod suggests, be received in an "OK" manner. But they might also be better for things like b-days or mom's day, as I'm sure she recognizes both those days, but may be in denial about the M.
And of course there is no such thing as an ultimatum with a MLCer. But... IF you decide to go the path of D, then I would suggest bringing it up with your W first. I am trying to get that worked out no for my sitch and did contact my W about it and she did not think it was necessary to tell the kids... ok... So it will fall on my shoulders to let them know. I'll probably tackle that slowly over a few conversations, once I know that everything is finalized. But it is my opinion that the kids should know that their parents are no longer separated, but are divorced... they are old enough to distinguish the difference between those two marital states and do know that right now we are only separated.
So that's my 2 pence on that...
Thanks snodderly and KD!
I always like to get other perspectives on things, especially if I haven't traveled that road (and hopefully won't!).
The whole thing with the anniversary is that in the past holidays, birthdays, etc one of the things I was not good at acknowledging the WAY W wanted, so I don't want to do the "same old same old", but not go overboard either...these fine lines are nerve wracking...
I have backed off, giving space. Yesterday after work I was going about the evening life and got overloaded a bit with the kids and trying to get things done, while "hung-over" from work stress, I asked W if I was giving off an air, she said yes and I had a chance to explain a bit, I could see her start to empathize, then she interrupted and handed me something to place elsewhere (which would have annoyed most humans I reckon)...so I just left to do so and went back to what I was doing originally. She followed me a minute later and asked if I was done talking, I said, "honestly no" very pleasantly. After she asked if I had more, I said one or two things then went about my business. She sorta kinda hung around for a bit.
The rest of the evening she was pleasant and actually did some eye contact.
This morning, I didn't have to wake her up (usually this means she is processing something), she made my breakfast and then disappeared into the bathroom with the door shut (we are/were a open door family usually) while I was leaving for work, which she knows in the past would have annoyed me...I just shouted up, NICELY, "thanks for breakfast" and left for work...
Some testing?
LOL, this cultural anthropology/feral cats class is a challenging curriculum ... I wish the testing times were published beforehand...
T^2
So here is another interesting thing....I recently "fixed" a long standing issue in our R as noted above...not a word, question, grunt, anything from W...
It is such a critical issue for her that I would expect SOMEthing....
Or is it that I may have removed a justification...?
LOL...darn feral cats...
T^2
Not really sure how to say this... not being sensitive, I just don't have the words...
We are of course assuming that your W truly is MLC. Because it is often stated about MLC that we never truly know it is MLC until the person has travelled through it and come out the other side. Until then, they still are just another person behaving in ways that can sometimes be rational and sometimes... not so much...
If you W is MLC, she actually may not be able to process any changes in you... she may see it... maybe even acknowledge it... but she doesn't really process it because of the "confusion" in her own mind... if she even gets to the point of recognizing it, she may just see it as the time as some game that you are playing to manipulate her... which puts her back into anger... and fear...
feral cat...
The only thing that you can do is do what you will because you want to, but with MLC... no expectations... because the possible responses from someone in MLC is any one of a million... and it can be all million at the same time, or within a period of 5 minutes...
Right now, I think I mentioned that my W has stated she feels I'm better at scheduling than she is... in that same comment, she suggested that she is too "fly-by-the-seat-of-the-pants" type of person... maybe she is... I saw some of that when I first met her... I called it "scattered"... but as time went on in the M, she took charge of that kind of stuff... and she was good at it... too good, maybe...
So I thought, "well fine, I can contribute and do the scheduling"... I would have been fine helping her with that in the past... which doesn't matter... I am fine doing that at this time...
So I do that and she then goes on to thank me about it, saying that she "kinda screwed up" last summer (regarding scheduling)... an apology? Maybe... some clarity...? maybe...
And again, in the same breath, says that it will be "easier" (for me to handle scheduling)... an admission that she doesn't want to be bothered with that...? maybe... that she is pushing the responsibility on me because she thinks I owe it to contribute...? maybe... or because she's acknowledging that she can't focus on fine details because she's still... confused and scattered...? maybe...
I take that info and store it for later processing and reference, make no comment on it and simply indicate to her that I've made adjustments to the schedule for her perusal...
and so it goes...
So, if you want to acknowledge the anniversary, certainly do so, but your W will process it how ever she can...
Using the feral cat metaphor, the cat approaches the food in your hand and notices that there is a piece of grass in your hand along with the food and scampers away... no reason except what ever meaning the cat took from that blade of grass... we will never know...
Same goes for any of the other things that you've "fixed"...
Make sense?
Yes, it does make sense, KD...man, so much wisdom here...
W has always needed time to digest and process new info or changes, so I really shouldn't be surprised.
Like your W, she is a "seat of pants" kinda person, which used to in the early days, and, still can, balance us out (a lot of that will be due to my changes, for the past few years it has been a contributor to my frustration...I choose to see it differently now, and being in late 40's and male...I don't need the stress of expecting someone else to necessarily see things the same way anymore...I have embraced my "type B" side...lol).
If she is in MLC, and I think so, I think she MAY be in the later stages...based on behavior (spewing at me/because of me has pretty much stopped, and most of the blaming, except where warranted) and what she has shared so far (clarity in certain issues, etc).
I did what I would have done if she had just disappeared or died, but still found myself surprised at the lack of reaction...meh, oh well, not my problem...I feel good for me and our kids.
"Blade of grass"..."feral cats"...rofl...that cracks me up! The metaphors and humor that the people here create is truly priceless...and mind saving!
T^2