Hello guys. Been while since I started a thread. Im struggling a bit with some issues and thought it could be a helpful for others in this sitch to post.
Many of us have children with MLCers. My concern is trying deal with an MLCer and their spewing at you in regards to your children.....Is parenting with these people ever possible?
First it started stbx refused to speak to me about anything in regards to the kids, because he was angry I've looked into spousal support. Child support in November was late, but he did pay it. Remind you, this is what we agreed upon and it's not court ordered yet because our divorce isn't final. This month, child support was very late. I sent an email and a text requesting it, but if he was struggling with it to let me know, for I can't pay rent without it. The next day I get an email from him telling me that he can't pay child support because his attorney fees went up, due to me dragging our case out longer by requesting spousal support. He also felt that I had alot of money hidden from him because I hired an attorney and therefore I could afford rent on my own, and besides he wasn't required to pay child support now without a court order. He says I played a part in him not being able to afford child support based on me dragging the case out and why should he have to pay it since he hasn't had an over night with the children in 4 months?
Since he's been gone he's blown thousands of dollars that he received, saved and hid from me silently for almost an entire year before he moved out. I only found out about it from his aunt. Yet it's my fault he can't pay child support?
I quickly informed my attorney that he was refusing to pay child support, who then quickly wrote a very clear and firm letter to stbx'x attorney. My attorney stated that what stbx was doing was wrong and that if he wants a court order, he'll get one. I had a check the next day for child support. I also had another nasty email spewing about I do nothing but personally attack him by having my attorney send him nasty letters and it's nothing but the same old shi**, me saying one thing and doing the other, and that he's still not required to pay.
He hasn't had an overnighter with the kids because they didn't want to spend the night in the same house with OW which was making them feel very akward. Our D12 has had a very hard time with this ordeal, and wants her Dad home. She misses him and being with him actually is painful for her because it's not the same. She's expresed anger, frustration, and has been the one to distance herself from him, yet still loving him, and feeling so confused and sad about it all. D9, seems to be handling it ok, and accepts it, but does feel some sort of akward in regards to pursuing a visitation with her father unless D12 comes along. Of course this was explained to him by me in 2 emails months ago, and by D12 as best as she could. He never responded to what I said and never spoke to D12 about her feelings, nor apologized. He's continued to push them coming to his place for months only to be met with them kindly declining. He places completely blame on me and feels I've purposely alienated the girls from him.
I've been working on encouraging the girls to stay with their dad when they're ready. We've had to have some heart to heart talks about the reality of the situation. Yet stbx constantly was telling D9 " I want you to spend the night", on a daily basis, but left D12 alone. Both girls have told me they feel really pressured by him to go spend the night, and then eventually they felt pressured by me too. When I heard that I backed off on any extra encouragment, because I realized I was still trying to please stbx, when what I needed to worry about was my girls!
Finally after 2 months of being open with me about their feelings in regards to stbx and divorce and allowing them their space they decided they wanted to spend Christmas night with him. He did request this. I have let it be known that the girls can spend the night with him anytime they want, but for now it has to be their choice.
Since nasty emails, he then made contact to confirm what I agreed to as far as visitation was concerned over Christmas break. He also exchanged amicable texts in regards to xmas presents for the girls, and after being told 3 times within 2 weeks he was to pick the the girls at 10 a.m. xmas day, sends another text asking when to pick them up???
D12 and I were text messaging Christmas Day about 7 p.m. . she was giving me the updates on how Christmas went with her grandma. Stbx, OW and D12 and D9 went down to his mother's for the day. D12 mentioned she missed the cats. I asked her if she was ok and she said " yes kinda". I responded about how my day went,how my great grandma was ( I visited her that day) told her the house was quiet with out them there and I loved her and missed her. I got a nasty message from stbx at 9 p.m. that D12 had been crying, and in her own little world for hours ever since I text her and whatever I said to her upset her very bad!
I responded by simply telling him what I said to her and asked if he talked to he about why she was sad. He fires off that all she'd say was that she misses me, and would just keep crying. He told me that I just made her feel guilty for telling her the house was quiet and for having fun because everything was fine until she talked to me! I responded I was sorry that he felt that way, but if I did make her feel that guilty, she would let me know.
D12 had been crying for 3 days prior to going with him Christmas Day. She's mourning the loss of our family the way it used to be. I see her going through the same stages of grief that we LBS's do. Yet it must be so much harder for her because she see's her dad often, for he takes them to school in the mornings. They've just made the choice to not stay with him.
Im venting, Im frustrated....but thanks to this site boy what I have learned! I think I just revisted the Crazy Train but can see this much quicker than 7 months ago. I woke up today feeling drained and spiritually "raped". When stbx dropped off the girls last night he had the most angry look on his face as I talked to D9 in the driveway from the front door as she was unloading her stuff.
Right now all I know to do is just keep up the detatchment (works wonders) and not to take anything personally, and keep it simple. No contact unless necessary. I refuse to feed the monster because it will not solve anything.
Some suggestions and experiences on attempting to parent with an MLCer in Monster would be greatly appreciated.
Oh and yes... HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Hi Kimmerz!
I saw your post about parenting with an MLC'er and I can totally relate. He seems to constantly attack you and blame you. I have dealt with that too. I used to constantly defend myself after his attacks, now I just ignore them and I think he does it less often. I just respond to the part about the kids,like the 10am pickup time, and ignore all the rest.
Good on calling your lawyer to deal with the child support!!! Btw, usually child support is higher the less the dad spends with the kids, b/c you are having all the costs. But I think it's best to just let your lawyer handle it. When my X is late with the child support, I just send an email to my L and let him deal with it. Detachment is key.
I actually can relate to your stbx upset with your text. I don't think you should have explained to him about the text or defended it. But I know my D12 is really sensitive about me being alone when she's over at her dad's, and I just always stress something fun I'll be doing, like going to do something with a friend, or shopping, or whatever, and it makes her happy that I am having fun and having "me" time. Originally, I would tell her I miss her and stuff like that, but I don't anymore, she knows I miss her and I think it does make her sad.
Karen
Hi Karen,
Thanks for posting.
I agree I shouldn't have even explained to him or defended it.
I should've just ignored him all together.
My daughter was so emotional over the whole ordeal, this being her first Christmas night without her mom, I think just about anything would've set her off into crying.
Kim
Yeah, I relate to a lot of what you say.
Your X's anger at his responsibilities is not your problem. I was too afraid of X's anger--now I figure that if he gets angry, too bad. Not my problem. I hung up on him a few times, even. This was not the old Forward.
Your X is beginning to come off the ga-ga love path and starting down the reality path. This, too, is not your problem, nor do you have to set your X straight. Life will take its course and will teach its lessons. And I learned things, too.
Do what your L recommends and do the best you can for yourself. Your X's mistakes and irresponsibility are not your problem and you don't have to "be nice." Do what you can for the kids. I surrounded myself with nice people and tried my best to build a family of sorts without X. Frankly, I've done pretty well with that and have more support than I ever did before.
Thanks so much Karen and Forward....I really appreciate hearing this from you guys, the support is such a help.
It's kinda amazing how quickly you can get caught up again in these sort of things even when you keep telling yourself you never will again!
7 months ago I would've felt I needed to set him straight, and would be attempting to talk about things. Yes, his reality is his reality! Im not responsible for it, nor am I responsible for the choices he's made, and the consequences that follow. Yes in the past he used to be able to make my head spin with such nonsense, but now Im wiser. It still just floors me how self absorbed these MLCers are...I mean I don't think I could think that seflishly if I tried!
Perhaps now that the money train has been spent and nothing is left, he's not going to board the reality train. This will be very ugly for him...and because of that I am glad he is out of the house. Reality bites!
I have to say thanks to this site and reading so many posts,I've learned so much in learning about myself, in how I react to him and his actions. My confidence is coming back, and Im really understanding what letting go is doing for me in the long run. I too want to build my own new family of sorts... and i think Im getting there.
I still question if Im ready to start dating or seeing someone. Im really starting to enjoy being without a partner and getting re aquainted with myself. Yet at times I still get lonely and the idea of meeting someone new and wonderful seems like fun. At the same time I still feel very "tired" from a long relationship that's been pretty frustrating for a while.
When do you know when you're ready to date again?
I meant "he's now going to board the reality train".
Oh Kimmerz, I read your post and thought, well, I don't have kids. I can't help you at all!!
Then I read the last one about "how do you know when you're ready to date" and I thought, I can help with that one!
Here's my 2 cents on that one :-)
1. If you go on a few dates and you feel like it's too soon, do NOT beat yourself up. It's really no big deal. People do this all the time.
2. With that said, I almost have to say that if you are asking, it probably is too early!! I say this because I did go on 2 dates at one year post-bomb (I was 7 months divorced) and at one year 2 months post-bomb, and the dates were disastrous. Now. They would have been disastrous at ANY stage. These two guys were just socially inept and uncomfortable with women in general...no long-term rel. ever and they were early 40's. But I could just as easily have gone on dates that were better. Perhaps I unconsciously TARGETED guys I thought would be less of a "threat" as I kind of knew I wasn't ready.
3. I would say that right now, I don't even care if I date anyone. Ever again ;-) I'm really more grateful to be alone and not have to deal with the crap of a bad relationship on any level than to date. And as a result, I'm getting hit on a lot. And I don't like it. Why? The thing that comes up in my head is "You're not him." Meaning XH.
4. HOWEVER. I did meet one person in a non-dating scenario, who I spoke to for a long time, naturally and easily, and this was just a "we have a mutual friend" situation, and bottom line, if he asked me out now, I'd go in a second and feel good about it.
Why? He fascinated me. That's the first I've felt fascinated in like, 23 years :-) But at the same time, if he never notices me, whatever. I'm good. I'm happy with who I am.
5. So this is the bottom line, I think: YES I feel lonely sometimes, and in those times, I wish I had someone in my life. But most of the time, I do NOT wish I had someone in my life, and I like that I don't have that to negotiate in addition to figuring myself out and my own life. I think if you are feeling moments of loneliness, this is natural, normal, and you need to learn to ride it. I'm telling you, the longer I do it, the more natural it feels and the more that I realize it is a choice I have made. There are a million things in this world telling us we need a significant other to be "whole" and frankly, WE DO NOT. It's a "perk". That's how I see it now. It's something that is wonderful to have. But it's no more wonderful to me than having best friends or family who love me and care for me. It's just DIFFERENT.
I dont' think going on a casual date if you don't know if you are ready is bad--it can actually help you see you are not or you are. I think it's different for everyone.
I think the main thing you have to ask yourself is "am I trying to fill the void of my ex" and if you are, you're probably not ready for a relationship.
I hope this helps. I feel like I tend to talk about myself a lot and I don't want to seem narcissistic, I just figure maybe if you hear what I've been thinking for a few months or facing, it might help?
Hi Everyone!
Happy New year! WEll here I am on this eve with my two girls and posting on this site.....LOL. Well I gotta say it's better than last year. Had a grumpy husband sitting in the corner heading into MLC and hating me while I was asleep on the couch for I had to get up at 4 a.m. New Years day!
This year, No grumpy MLCer (in the house that is..LOL), I have tonight and tomorrow off, and the girls and I have plans to see the local Holiday light display, becaue it's the last night.
Im 20 pounds lighter than I was last year thanks to the Divorce?MLC diet. Many compliments on how good I look. I think I look a little younger, not too sure.
Im also turning 40 in 2 weeks. I've been bound and determined since my 39th birthday that MY LIFE WILL BEGIN AT 40!! It's an even number, there fore all will EVEN OUT in my life.
Stbx's behavior the past few weeks has been quite colorful. As I first posted, there were nasty emails in regards to child support and it being my fault for him not affording it. Then there was amicable child visitation plans. Then there was defensive texting because D12 was having a very emotional night and it was all my fault for making her feel guilty.
Since the overnighter the children seem to feel much more comfortable at his house. OW keeps completely to herself playing online video games the entire time they are there while stbx gives the kids his undivided attention. This is good. The girls are bonding with Dad without pressure of having to be overly involved with someone they feel odd about.
Because they feel better about this, and Im really needing a break I contacted sbtx and suggested we get them into a routine immediately in staying with him. I asked if he would take them next week. Before you know it we actually had a very amicable exchange in how we need to decide together parenting times and stand as a front together, and get them out of the routine of choosing. STBX was aggreeable, accomodating, and assertive.
Now many months ago when I tried to have such a conversation with him I was met with spew, and every reason under the sun as to WHY we can't do this, and just let them choose!
Once again my head is spinning. Why, tell me why, do these people go from nice, compromising and sane, to turning around and acting posessed? I mean really if it were just an alien that over took them, they'd be nicer! Is this some form of bi polar? Im sure he thinks the same thing about me, for in the past I've been very reactive to his behavior. Well I know for sure, two wrongs don't make a right!
Antonia, thanks SO MUCH for your input on dating. I didn't find it narcissistic at all! I appreciated it. And you know what I think Im doing a little better than I thought. I think maybe Im a little interested in dating, but not a relationship at all. Dating as fun and social, but relationship....that's gonna be a while.
It dawned on me that I must form a better relationship with me and be ok with me, before Im ready for another real relationship. If Im no good to myself,and emotionally healthy, then Im not good to anyone else. And one thing I've learned through all this whoopla is that happiness truly comes from within! Don't ever expext someone else to make you happy. If I really master this, then when I do have another relationship, if it doens't work out, I don't think it will be as near as devasating as my divorce has been, because I know I will be just fine alone.
I used to think " why can't I just be like stbx? Just get another one! Fill the empty whole and find someone that does and says all the right things to make me feel happy?"
Then I realized something. That's about the dumbest thing in the world I could do right now.
Having a bad night here.
D12 is depressed, no doubt about it. I think it's a good idea I get her into counseling.
D12 is going through a very rough spell. She's overwhelmed with the changes in her life. She's never done big transitions well. tonight I could tell she was on the verge of tears ( has happened several times lately) and she told me she wanted me to come sit with her because she was lonely.
She finally broke down. She's HEARTBROKEN over her Dad leaving. She misses him and wants him home. She misses the good times so much. She doesn't want to go to his place, she doesn't want to share him with OW, she wants him home. Being with him makes it bitter sweet. She enjoys her time, but it still makes her sad.
How do you explain MLC to a 12 year old? She's mature beyond her years. I've explained to her that her Dad is happy with his new life, and that though we don't have to like it we do have to accept it. I've said all the right, things that he loves them, and him leaving didn't have a thing to do with them, it was between us. I was honest and let her know he was in a place where he felt he had to do this and though it broke my heart too, it had to be done.
I just hate seeing my baby in pain. HOW THE HELL DO YOU SUGAR COAT THIS?
Kimmerz I'm so sorry. My daughter too was so devastated when her dad left. She was 17 and in 12th grade but still acting like a lost little girl.
When I was out she'd often text me to see when I was coming home that she was lonely...and even when I was in the next room she'd come into my room and ask to come out and spend time with her and her brothers.
It's really awful to see your kids torn up over the divorce. We are all doing much better now but it's been a rough 20 months.
Luv
Thank you luvless. It helps to hear from other parents that have gone through this. Im so afraid Im doing or saying the wrong thing to her when i try to explain what happened. I don't want to lie, but can't elaborate either. STBX left that all up to me and said " well just let me know if you need help so I can back you up on what you say". Im so stupid for letting him slip away like that without having to tell them anything!!! Yet I was so confused I didn't know what the heck was going on...didn't even know he was divorcing me.
They spend the next two nights with him....and Im afraid they're going to be rough for her. She's not comfortable going because all it does is make her sad. Yet everyone seems to keep telling me that he has his new life now and the kids have to get used to it.
The State of Oregon says the children don't get to choose whether or not they get to visit their parents or not unless there's a safety reason.
I never had a real "dad". I don't know what it's like to have a father/daughter relationship. So I don't really understand exactly what she's going through. I had a step Dad, and most of the time I was glad to see him leave. He left and came back all the time. Finally when I was 19, he left for good. I was sad about it too, because I thought he'd had straightened up and would stick around. It was hard for me to see him around town afterwards. It still is akward and that was 20 years ago!
Hey Kimmerz!
I don't have much help to offer you. My kids are big. My 4 year old granddaughter was pretty puzzled by my sleeping in the guest room, though. Then my H tried to be cute and told her I was 'camping' in the guest room. She said something like: "Papa, Grandma sleeps with you." Tore my heart out.
I remember someone else, I think Labug, said that the person asking for the D should be telling the kids this stuff with you standing by. But if you are getting papers without any notice I don't suppose there will be any reasonable ways of presenting it.
I remeber when my H dropped the first bomb 12 years ago and then 2 weeks later decided to stay. He seemed suprised then that I had told the kids he planned to leave. He was living in another state. I always wondered did he think the kids were blind and wouldn't notice their mom crying for 2 weeks straight and hiding in her room and not eating anything? They were 12 and 17 then!
About your daughter, just sit with her and let her talk and listen to what she says. You and I both know venting is helpful for us!
Aloha!
Ok Im about to just blow my stack! No infact I am blowing my stack!
Someone explain to me WHY these WAS seem to think they can pick and choose when to re appear emotionally available and emotionally involved?
You know Im finding that when xh starts to show signs of being human, I go into a fit of anger. I know it's a defense because it won't last. My hopes have been up and shattered so many times.
In the fall our daughter was really struggling. Christmas time my daughter was really struggling over him being gone and being wtih OW. He never answered any of my emails when I was telling him what a hard time our daughter was having and this is why she wouldn't stay with him. He refused to speak to me about anything, didn't apologize to the girls, and acted as if nothing ever happened.
Now all the sudden he's trying to connect with me and get more involved with me as far as the parenting is concerned. Yet for months he refused to speak to me. Now he wants to speak to me and he wants to communicate, and he's being nice.
I emailed him about a week ago about taxes, etc stuff he started talking about. It was a kind email and I thanked him for some things. I didn't have any expectations.
He texts me while he's at work most of the time. He texts at home, but rarely. I think he might do it when OW isn't looking or if she's taking a nap.
I am just so frustrated and mad. They act like nothing happened. Yet I've been the one apologizing over and over again. The divorce will be final by the end of the month. Maybe he's happy he's finally gotten what he wants and seems to think he wants to be friends now....I just don't understand his actions at all.
He's having moments of clarity and feels that the pressure is off of him to return to you since the divorce is not far away. I know it sounds crazy, but once they know the divorce is going through, they become a little bit nicer because they are getting what they think they want. Truth be told, if you were to do something that he didn't like, he would revert back to the angry man he was. For now, accept whatever kindness he is offering because we do not know for how long he will be that way.
I am very sorry he's not been there for you and your daughter. Let's hope and pray that at some point, he will want to reconnect permanently and be there for her.
Oh snodderly I guess Im such a dunce!!! I don't get this at all. He left, moved in with OW within 2 months after leaving and has been happy as a clam with her, but still fighting with me whenever the mood strikes him (spew).
Just what kind of clarity do they have? Is clarity the same thing as reality?
Im struggling with MLC logic here. If he's happy with her and his life is going peachy with OW, why would he feel pressure to return to me? He appeared happily separated. He mainly just wanted to be away from me and that's what he got. If that's what he got, and he's happy with his new life, then why spew? I just don't get it! LOL....
I caught him in a stupid lie last night which just sent me to the moon, then I ended up crying alot today because I've been stuffing alot down for weeks.
You know I ran into some mutal friends of ours last week. They were very sad to hear about the divorce and expressed their condolences. She said to me " once the divorce is over then you guys can work on being friends again. It always gets better after the divorce is over."
WTH does that mean??LOl...Friends??? I don't think so! He has nothing to offer me as a friend at all, and I would never be friends with the likes of what he's pulled! Let alone how I've seen him treat his very own " friends".
Kimmerz,
Clarity and reality are one and the same. They do have moments that they are actually wide awake and can see things for what they are. The rest of the time, it's all about "me" and the fantasy world that they have created...that's when the mask of happiness is put back into place. As for pressure, in his mind, he is thinking that you are still waiting for him to return to you and also, he is thinking that you are expecting him to be the same man that he was. If he knows that you aren't waiting for him or that your expectations are at zero, he may not spew. Did something trigger his most recent spewing session?
They aren't as happy as we all think. Let's face it, they left good spouses, families and homes. They were respected in their communities and fields of work. Now, they are having to rebuild at an older age and it's not easy. They are not going to be able to burn the candle at both ends for a very long time before health issues begin to crop up. The grass is always greener over the septic tank...to those looking for it. Keep in mind, if they were really happy, we wouldn't be hearing their irrational spewing, etc.
I've heard exactly what you've been told by your friends about divorce being over and can work on being friends. My xh told me that as well...not while I'm of my sane mind. People don't have a clue as to what we have had to deal with and it's ongoing. I once had an elderly lady tell me that until my xh drops dead, he will always be a bug on my radar screen. She said that when they leave the way they do while in mlc, they never completing cut the apron string from the spouse that they left. I'm beginning to think she's right.
There is no rational logic to what they do when they are in fantasyland. You accept them the way they are for now and hope that as they move along, or should I say grow up, they will settle down and act like rational human beings on some level. Also, keep in mind, the sprew may not even be about something you have done...it could very well be that someone else rattled his cage and you just happen to step into his line of vision and you got the spew. I wouldn't spend a lot of time wondering why they are the way they are...they can't even figure that one out themselves, so how can we?
Kimerrez,
if I may add my 2 cents worth on this topic.
In his mind you are doubtlessly the primary obstacle to his happiness and you are not easily overcome. In the worst case you are THE ONLY reason he is unhappy. When you are out of the picture he will be able to be happy again. The problem therein is the work and complicatios of getting rid if you. It takes time, money, lawyers and nagging in the back of his head is the fact you have children so he knows he cannot completely rid you from his life and that probably frustrates him.
Mine would blow up from time to time during D process and I also wondered what the causes were. I sometimes thought others (OM) brought up her concerns but they may have been internally generated by her.
It's a vicious cycle. They want to be rid of us, blame us for everything wrong in their lives, hate us for how they feel, become frustrated at the work/time/effort/money to be rid of us and hate us all the more for it. Throw in a little fear that the financial/property settlement won't be exactly what tge want or expect and you've got quite a concondrum going on in their heads.
Mine verbalized early on how she wanted us to be friends and she would always love me. I wish I could remember exactly how much time apart that was from her threat to "make my life a living Hell" if didn't give her what she wanted. Don't try to figure him out. You won't but you'll waste a lot of time and drive yourself into depression.
Over time mines spew has greatly subsided to the point of almost non-existance. The only time it arises now seems to involve time sharing the kids, especially when the lady Im dating is in some way involved. She has verbalized how "good it is for the kids and us too" that we are friends and touched me on the back as if to attest to the validy of her comments or check to see if I feel the same. Another time recently she touched me (on the back again) as she was dropping off the kids. I made no acknowledgement of it either time. I don't know what all the new "touchiness" is about and am not wasting time trying to figure it out.
Reminds me of an MLC light beer:
"Less spew, more touching, same great taste"
Snodderly is right on all counts I'm afraid. I'm close to 9 months post divorce and yet the drama continues from the ex. She is angry about something, but channels it through daughter. I've seen the emails etc from daughter when she spoke to me. Ex decided that I was doing something wrong and spewed all over the place. When I asked for her input, she let me know she wouldn't share anything with me.
Really? With regards to your own daughter?
I had a lawyer send an email for that and a few other things. Ex forgot the things she said and guess what? Blamed me
It may not end for a long time. It may never end until you end it. While you are raising kids together, there may be more effort on your part to keep him at bay.
It just is. Accept it and as was mentioned earlier in the thread, only respond when appropriate to the situation.
Stay focused on the things you can do and let the rest go. You'll be healthier for that.
AJ
I had to share, as well...
When I asked for her input, she let me know she wouldn't share anything with me.
I keep wondering when the spew will end. I decided to get a new car (really needed one). My W had even suggested I do so, once settlement was completed.
So... I decide that if I'm gonna get a car, I'm getting one I will enjoy. It's an older Benz, but I actually MAKE money driving it off the lot. Great deal. Well, W is pissed I would get a car "like that"...
As an independent consultant, there are still people (even in our small community) who do not know we're separated. Any time someone like that calls the house to ask for me, it pisses my W off and I get told about it. I don't know anything short of putting a half page ad in the paper to let people know that I am NOT at that number or address... of course, that would piss her off, as well... again...
The other day, I dropped D9 off back with her. This was two days after she spewed about the car. I swear as I was leaving, she moved towards me as though she wanted to hug, touch, or just be closer... IDK... I didn't stick around to find out...
There's a few threads I could post this in, I was just reminded again via another D resource, that sometime in the future... the WAS... the MLCer... whatever... they WILL find clarity and they WILL try to reconnect... even if it's not for a new, intimate R...
It's up to us how we handle ourselves now... and when that time happens... it will be up to us how we deal with it and what we choose...
In the mean time, don't poke the bear and enjoy the life that you have and the future that you create.
Thanks for all your input guys, I really appreciate it and it helps put things into perspective. I am so sorry we have been put though all of this, but Im so grateful that God has brought us together, via internet so we can be here to support eachother. If it weren't for everyone here, I seriously may have been pushed over the edge into insanity, or possibly suicide. The pain gets so great, you just want it to go away. And at times the only way you think you can get away from the pain is to no longer exist.
I also have to say the more I've read up on the passive aggressive personality, it fits more than MLC with xh.There is alot of good info out there online, and it's helped me so much. All I can say is he has been a person with serious PA issues, then hit MLC. You mix that up with the PA issues that become colossal during MLC and look what you have. One fine mess.
A vent and a rant coming on here. Im sorry, Im still just so frustrated and irked by him. I guess Im just resentful that I still have to deal with him to some extent, and dealing with him now is a whole new ball of wax, and requires controlled reaction and interaction with him. Where as my patience is so shot with this MLC/PA antics I'd be thrilled to never deal with him ever again. Snodderly..... I can see the truth in the apron strings never being cut. Sometimes I almost think he craves my attention at times, even though there is OW. Alot of me being so irked is that I have had adult expectations in such and adult situation, that require maturity and grace on both parties. I didn't expect to have to deal with kindergarten antics.
His most recent snide retort was earlier this week. I had requested he bring the girls home at 5:30 in the afternoon from their overnight visit with him, if it wasn't a problem. Normally it's around 7 he brings them home. He respoded with " well that only give me 2 hours after school with them. So are you cooking them dinner?"
I quickly responded by stating I made it clear if "it wasn't a problem", and obviously it was. I told him if he wants more time with them that letting me know that he wanted a little more time with them that day is all he needed to do. Wow...his reaction was something I didn't expect....it appeared sincere, genuine, and admitting the truth of what he was feeling. Abandoned and lonely. He said he misses the kids and 3 hours the evening before and 2 hours the next day wasn't enough ( the girls were at school). He also said that we had the normal routine of him dropping them off at 8 p.m., WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN THE CASE. No specific time has ever been set, but he has always dropped them off at 7 p.m. I don't know where this 8 p.m. stuff came from. I told him I didn't remember this being set in stone but if it was and I somehow forgot, a reminder would be nice or we agree this is what we will do from now on. Then Of course there was guilt thrown in there by him of " well this little time is better than nothing and I will get them home at 5:30. I was going to cook them dinner, but I will do it next week if I can". He does know how to use the guilt factor on me well.
As we continued to text my first impression was that he was missing the kids, couldn't articulate it, and when my request for them to come home came up, he instantly became defensive and put himself of the victum role. Of course me being the persecutor and cheating him his time with the kids. So I just let him know if he needs or wants more time with them to let me know from now on...that's all he has to do! I also let him know that as he's wanting more time with the kids, I could use a little more of a breather from them, and could he possibly try and get a Saturday and Sunday (he works weekends almost always)off and take the kids? He then replies to me that he's "trying" but they're short night supervisors so he cant???
Ok this is the first time I have ever asked him to request specific time off to take the kids since he left. He says he's trying...as if he knows I need a break and would actually like to have an entire weekend to myself? We have not discussed this at all. I guess it makes me angry that he says he's doing already doing something, when I never had asked??
Then come to find out this big dinner he was supposed to be cooking the kids....he dumped in OW hands and made her cook it so he could spend more time with them.
I give up, and am moving on. Just one sitch at a time with him is all i can really do.
Kimmerz,
It's one day at a time, one episode at a time. You are expecting him to be rational and see where you are coming from...not going to happen for a very long time, if ever. Well, he set you up a bit...8 p.m.? If you don't recall setting the time at 8, then most likely it was never agreed upon. They like to play w/our heads and the PA person will do that. It's his way of getting you to back down and feel guilty.
Kimmerz, you will need to set your boundaries for your children and stick to them. If you don't, he will always us the PA trump card and you will be the one always feel guilty for sticking to your guns.
The PA folks are very frustrating to deal with.
I can't sleep. tend to wake up around 1 - 2 a.m. most nights feeling frustrated, and angry at xh.
Today something dawned on me. My emotions are like a roller coaster when it comes to him. I feel as irrational as he acts. One minute Im doing well, acceptant of things, and my feelings towards him are still caring feelings, but understand I will always do this from a distance from here on out.
Then he will do or say something that just sets me off into orbit and Im just nothing but a big ball of anger and frustration. I had an insight to something today.
Yes Snodderly, I still do have expectations of him. As low as they've become over the last year, I still have them. I become angry and frustrated because Im still VERY hurt over his choices, and how he acts. What I've expected is a little decency, respect, and courtesy from him. People are probably more respectful to their neighbors or people they pass on the street. But not with him.
What Im really wanting and needing is an apology from him, but I will never get it. It didn't dawn on me till lately just how much a true apology means and how important it is.
I've been so confused with myself as to why Im finally getting a little cooperation from him, yet Im finding the nicer he is the more angry I get. I realized that I feel like a HUGE factore was just jumped over and completely swept under the carpet, and not dealt with...and it has. Classic PA. He's now going to act like everything is ok and cool, but gee we forgot something! An apology and maybe an offical way to make ammends!
I will never learn...at least with him. See I treat others as I wish to be treated. Classic PA abuse, I always apolize to him, always. What did I do last week? In an email to him I told him that given the divorce was final anyday I was recalling the last 20 years. I said that I was truly sorry for hurt and heartbreak I caused him.
It dawned on me that even though I knew I would never get it, I had a little glimmer of hope that he would return the apology and make a few acknowleldgments. Nope. Im still looking for emotional availability from him.
As frustrating and crazy making as this is, it really is the best thing I need. It's just more proof that he is NOT what he used to be or who I thought he ever was. Even the most decent respect and decency you could show your neighbor, he can't even do with me. He's toyed with me enough, possibly feels I've earned the priveledge of speaking to him, and therefore will resume business as usual with me. That's how he always was before in our marriage. That's how he's treated other people in his life. That's how he treated his bar partons at work.
Unreal!
Kimmerz,
I could have written your posting. I had thought about the apology and "let's be friends" issues for years and I came to the realization that my xh doesn't have one darn clue just how much he hurt me over the years, but more importantly when he walked out. Oh, yeah, I got a half @ss apology 5 years after he left for driving me crazy during the marriage, but not one apology for walking out and acting like a total @ss. And, in the same email, wanting to be friends, because he has other divorced friends that are friends w/their exes. So, you can see, you are not alone...their empathy chips are completely destroyed.
You may never get what we would consider an apology. You might get a half @ss one down the road, but it will never be sincere. They can't/don't know how to give a sincere apology because they never learned that there are times when THEY are at fault for what transpires. Your xh will want to sweep everything under the rug and pretend that things didn't happen and you can be the best buds ever. It doesn't happen that way because you know what happened and would never do what he did to you to others.
I thought you might still have expectations of him. Kimmerz, this is where you need to detach a bit more. I realize that you have children and will need to deal w/him, but you are going to have to think of him as a stranger. The expectations are going to drive you nuts because he can't/won't be the person that you expect him to be. We all learned at an early age to respect others and treat others as you would want to be treated. Unfortunately, the PA's were were mistreated so terribly that they used this "learned" behavior to help them get through life. We, unfortanately, are the ones that get the brunt of their behavior now.
Once I educated myself on PA behavior, I stopped feeling guilty and apologizing for everything that didn't suit my xh. You will to learn that you are not obligated to make him feel better about your decisions if they are fair. Before apologizing, think about what you've said or done and if your actions are fair and what you would expect from others towards you, then don't apologize. The PA personalities know all of the tricks to work each and every situation to their advantage. You now will need to learn how to side step their behavior. Continue reading about PA behavior...the more you learn, the better prepared you will be when it comes to dealing w/him.
Kimmerz,
I found this on another website and thought this might help you to better understand what the PA feels towards us.
"The passive aggressive objectifies the object of their desire. You are to be used as a means to an end. Your only value is to feed his/her own emotional needs. You are not seen as a person with feelings and needs but as an extension of him/her. They care for you the way they care for a favorite chair. You are there for their comfort and pleasure and are of use as long as you fill their needs."
Snodderly,
Something clicked while I read the quote you posted. You are not just "the chair" you are intended by them to be the PERFECT chair. As when you hear someone say, That is the perfect chair for my sitting room!"
I believe ths is why we are not allowed to make mistakes, be human. Whenever I would state why something didn't go as expected by her she would respond, "That's just an excuse." There was never an acceptable explanation. Perfect chairs dontbmake mstakes.
They, on the other hand can do no wrong, therefore no appology will be made by them. Whenever I would pin her down on her failings she would respond angrily,"Now s not the time to discuss this" and of course the time never came to do so or would stare blankly at me and walk away not even responding to what I had said.
If we look back I believe we will find they never were people who sppologized for their failures/actions so why would we expect them to appologize now?
Sleeper,
I agree w/you 100%. In all of the years that I knew my xh, I never once heard the words "I'm sorry". He was the most skilled excuse maker I have ever met...He never owned up to his mistakes, it was always the fault of others.
If they did apologize, it would not be a sincere apology because they have no "true human" feelings. They don't feel empathy for anyone and once they tire of you or should I say what they can get out of you, then they move on to their next target. That's the reason they can move on and not look back. They considered us a posession and when the tire of possessions, what do they do w/them? Throw them away or put them in the back of the closet and never take them out again. What is so sad about all of this is that they will continue to repeat this pattern throughout life and truly will never be happy because they aren't looking within and seeking help for their behavior.
Sleeper,
If they did apologize, it would not be a sincere apology because they have no "true human" feelings. They don't feel empathy for anyone and once they tire of you or should I say what they can get out of you, then they move on to their next target. That's the reason they can move on and not look back. They considered us a posession and when the tire of possessions, what do they do w/them? Throw them away or put them in the back of the closet and never take them out again. What is so sad about all of this is that they will continue to repeat this pattern throughout life and truly will never be happy because they aren't looking within and seeking help for their behavior.
So would you consider him STUCK within his MLC?
Is that a normal occurence to get stuck?
Because it seems that Jim Conway believes most MLC'er complete their MLC.
No matter what I realize that we must keep living out life "as if" they are never coming back.
Thanks.
Cadet,
Jim Conway speaks of people in mlc, and I as I recall, he did not specifically break down the various personalitis in his book, nor did his late wife address them in hers. During mlc, if an individual has a tendancy to have some traits of various personalities, they are stronger during this time. As to whether they are the ones that remain stuck forever, I do not know. However, I do know that there are many who do become stuck along the way and it may take a longer time for them to recover and complete their crisis. As to what will "unstick" them, I can't answer that one.
If the mlcer can overcome his/her crisis and the PA traits settle back down, maybe their apologies are more sincere, but many while in crisis would prefer to sweep things under the rug and hope that you will too. The half-hearted apologies are just that and they really do not express any emotions except anger.
However, where a "non-mlcer" person w/a PA personality, then yes, they have no "true feelings" for their target and their empathy chip is completely damaged. If they seek professional help, it takes years to change their behavior and then there is no guarantee that it will.
Most of the mlcers are conflict avoiders w/a mix of PA. As for my xh, he was a PA/conflict avoider and he's been in his crisis since 1997 and he's still going strong. I don't see any of the "old self" in him at all. He is still rocking just as if he were 18, despite some health issues.
Readers need to understand the mlc affects all types of personalities and all walks of life. There is no way that any of us can predict who will come out the other side w/their personalities in tact or those who remain stuck forever in their new personna. It's a wait and see and while doing so, each and every person has to find a way to continue living their lives to the best of their ability. Sure, you can leave the door ajar and hope for the best, but do not stop living your life. If he/she does return to the real world and wants to seek you out and attempt reconcillation, then that is the time that you, the lbs, will need to make some decisions about what you want or what is best for you and your family. Until that time, live your life to the fullest as if they are never coming back.
Reading and Heeding!
PS I love you all!
Hi everyone,
Snodderly I found that website too and read that exact same paragraph.I can't tell you how much I've felt like that during the marriage and of course during these past 9 months. See my xh is a pack rat of many things. He can't get rid of many things, and he always must aquire more, for whatever mood he's in at the time. He aquires things, usues them and when the newness wears off, he sets it aside, but won't ever get rid of it.
Well I guess you could say that's how I feel. I am now a collectible item to him now. I was able to meet and fullfill his needs just fine for some time, but then I was no longer able to. So he found a different model. Gosh I can't even try and think along those lines, to even grasp the PA logic. I appreciate you bringing that to my attention. Because it sure explains the few words he did speak to me in regards to OW a few months back. As heartbroken as I was, I actually was taken aback at the same time. As I stand back....I can now see how he still relates to me as an extension. I do have something he wants/needs, which are the children.
I did alot of thinking today and I have realized that I absolutely must become proactive in making myself happy and getting a new and fun life. I thought I wasn't doing well because I was too depressed, but it dawned on me it's not entirely that. It's the fact there is nothing in this town that interests me. I was trying to get Xh to consider moving to a bigger place years ago. He didn't want to. I need to move out of town, and get some distance to heal. Having this rubbed in my face and now that they're going public and I have to hear about it is just too much for me. I can detatch properly from afar, but not like this. Just establishing basic communication with him has completely rocked my world. I was doing so well up until we started speaking again.
See I now know I became completely too attatched to my xh. He was all I had left. He and my girls were my life. I had no life outside my family and work. I only have 2 family members, one 500 miles away I haven't seen in 12 years, the other is stage 4 dementia and really not there. My best friends I only see a few times a year, and the only family I really see are Xh's. Im still very much intouch with them, but it's still a reminder of what no longer is. It seems like everytime we're all together we're all going down memory lane with he and i being a big part of it.
I live in a small town and there is nothing really entertaining to do. No fun groups to join or new extra curricular activities to do for the kids. I feel if I actually had something to do, I would've moved on much better by now. Im not happy with where I am emotionally. I expected to be so much better off now than I was. But I've spent a great deal just taking care of the kids, seeing to it they get through the transition, and learning as much about this as I can. I've focused way to much on this insanity and they only way to get me look away is to get away.
The PA almost seems more narcissistic than anything. But I finally have an answer to all the insanity I ever came across with that man. I do feel in his case the MLC has brought out the PA much stronger. Before he was the type that would "layer" the PA behavior. They would come far and few between, enough to make you really be suprised, but go and stay away so long you soon forgot about it. It's just been the last 2 years the PA has been full blown and going strong and still is. His reasons for leaving and his behavior has also been classic MLC.
Kimmerz,
Speaking from experience, it's a struggle totally detaching when you have kids. Mine were very young as is one of yours and that makes it even harder. I don't know what the laws are in your state concerning a domicillary parent relocating but if you feel that's what you need to do I say go for it. You can't be there for your kids if you're falling apart at home. It's hard enough on them to see one parent in crisis.
"You've got to save yourself first" (Old lifeguard saying)
Sleeper, if this isn't the truth! I just found out my D9 has a hip condition and will more than likely have to get an operation to correct it! Apparently it's not a severe condition, but either way hearing your little one needs surgery to fix it is hard and scary!
I need their Dad now and she needs him. Yes it's hard when you could use some support, especially when it's with this specific person you created this child with.
Kimmerez,
My son recently had surgery on both ankles (in the past three months) and is currently recovering from the last (they do one, then the other so the patient can be on crutches and not bed-ridden).
Why do you need his dad? (insurance, care etc)
Why does your D "need" him?
One parent can do much alone.
Sleeper thanks so much for you sharing that. You're poor son! Did he handle the surgery ok? This is the first time either one of my girls has had something serious like this so Im kinda freaked out. It's true when it's your own kids it's a whole new ball of wax. I work with sick and dying people all the time, no problem. I've watched them decline, let go, and slip away before my eyes. I've administered morphine to make it easier. but my baby needs pins so she can run and play, and Im a mess!
No I do not need him for anything. It's the attatchment standing up and actually me wanting his support that has me saying that....now that I think about it.
Does D need him, well no I guess not.
I have the insurance cards for the girls.
I guess it's my expectations again.
He's been acting so passive lately. Passive remarks that just drive me crazy. He's gone from being direct and telling me when he wants the kids for the week to now " I forgot, are they staying with me, or do you want them home this week?" Or " I can take the girls if you want". I have never asked him to keep them home on his days to see them. Is this his way of saying he doesn't really want them and trying to get me to say let them stay home with me? Why does he talk as if he's treated like a babysitter all the sudden? Very odd.
A few weeks ago he didn't even ask for the kids. When I asked him why, he said " I knew it was your day off so I didn't bother asking". Did he really not want them?
Do these people actually still have some attatchments to us, and that's why they may spew, just as I get angry and frustrated because I have expectations due to attatchments I still have as well?
HMMm
Kimmerz,
I'm very sorry to hear about your little one, but she will come through the surgery w/flying colors. It's normal for you to be concerned and need her father for support, but he's not going to be any good to you as a supporter. Right now, she needs to sense that you are okay w/her surgery. She doesn't need any additional tension or stress. She needs to see that you are okay w/the surgery and will be her strongest supporter.
They do still have attachments to us. However, the sprewing is not only directed toward us, but anyone or anything that gets in their way. They spew at their co-workers, friends, family, pets, people driving along the highway. They can't control their emotions and that's why they spew like Mount Etna.
Keep in my, your xh wants you to do all of the work, i.e., planning/scheduling time for the children to see him, etc. That's why he is passive about the visitation...he wants you to be the one that screws up and gets the blame for him not seeing them or a miscommunication takes place. He's very good at his little passive dance w/you. Stop questioning yourself and set the vistation times/dates and stick w/them. Give him the schedule and go from there. If you don't, he'll continue this dance w/you until the children are grown.
Another reason he may be passive about the visitation is that he wants the kids to spend time with their mom. Guilt is a bi** and if OW is not that motherly, then he may actually see it as good that they are with their mom.
Don't count it as a bad thing if he wants them to spend time with you vs him. He may not be capable of parenting right now. He may never be. That is not the same as not wanting a relationship with the kids. It's him not being able to do it in a way you see as "normal".
Remind him its his reponsibility to remember the dates and times and to communicate to you the changes if needed. Don't be harsh on that one, K. Act in the best interest of your kids and be objective about that. These things will ebb and flow over time, but your kids don't need to get caught in that.
He may want you to screw up, but I'm not seeing that in your post. I'm not seeing what wants as mattering either. I see that your kids need your stability and you need to keep his emotions out of your head to do that.
I hope the surgery goes well. I'm sure it will
AJ
Another reason he may not appear that interested in his children is because he is depressed. My ex acts like yours when he cycles into depression. He then withdraws from the kids because he feels "useless" to them and just wants to focus on his woes.
Did he handle the surgery ok? This is the first time either one of my girls has had something serious like this so Im kinda freaked out
Yes he's done well, better than I expected, it was the first time one of my children need surgery so I understand your concern. We often joked he walked like Charlie Chaplin and didn't connect his complaints that his "feet hurt" when he played sports. Turns out it was his ankles hurting. Pediatrician missed the misalignment problem. Podiatrist told us it was a degenerative problem that would only get worse as he got older, window for treatment is 8-12 years of age (he's 10). It required wedge shaped implants so I understand your concern of your D needing pins.
Kids heal quickly and your D will key on your emotional response. Be strong for her. I was really worried my son might resist the second surgery after going through the first. To my surprise he was egar to get it over and had an "It's gotta be done" attitude.
A few weeks ago he didn't even ask for the kids. When I asked him why, he said " I knew it was your day off so I didn't bother asking". Did he really not want them?
Mine went from being totally focused on our kids to wanting me to take them so she could party (especially with OM). In fact I had only been out of the house two days when she called asking if I could "take them for a while". No concern as to the fact I was newly in an apt with very sparse furnishings. I took them because I'd rather they be with me than a babysitter and I knew that's what she would have done. The reasons can vary but I suggest you stop trying to figure him out and think only of what is best for your children. Then do it.
Do these people actually still have some attatchments to us, and that's why they may spew, just as I get angry and frustrated because I have expectations due to attatchments I still have as well?
They spew at us because it's safe and they have blamed us for all their unhappiness; past, present and future.
My W has always told me I am a really good father,(but apparently a crappy H) yet gives me the PA remarks when she creates a scheduling conflict for herself and says "I thought you would just want to spend time with your daughter." I have always stuck to the schedule and will continue to do so.
I called her out on her PA statement immediately and she just smiled. Now she hasn't really contacted me in weeks, except for yesterday when D got hurt and we had to evaluate whether she needed medical attention. She was pretty friendly then.
I guess my point is that PA remarks and horrible boundaries go hand in hand in this arena. The best you can do is do what YOU want to do, or what is in the kid's best interest.
If H can't figure out the schedule and offers the kids and you would like them, then take them. He is only hurting himself. The kids will atleast have one parent that cares enough about them to want to be with them and fight for them.
When/if he misses them enough, he will start minding the schedule. If he complains about "taking his kids away during his time", simply state that he offered them so you took them.
To protect yourself though, I would try to keep communication about the kids in writing as much as possible so that if it comes up in court, you are protecting yourself.
Thank you everyone. No news from the Shriners hospital yet. Im anxious to hear when we need to go and what's all entailed. My baby will do fine. I hear it's a great place and we will be in good hands. Thanks for your support guys, I appreciate it so much.
Xh has D9 today and purchased her crutches and a wheelchair. I was informed of the wheelchair by D9. I will let xh know boundaries I want set with this wheelchair. He didn't ask me if it was ok, he just purchased it. I asked him to get the crutches today but not a wheelchair too. I understand his logic behind it. I then got a text message that he had to pay out of pocket for those crutches and it wasn't covered by an RX that we got for them from the pediatrician. I was told what he paid and that he will get refunded for them since he will return them when she's not needing them anymore. I got the idea he was a little miffed he paid for them. Yet it was his choice, we could've searched until an Rx was taken.
I sense he's getting ready to spew and irritable today. Ow is also with them on this outting. According to the kids she never goes anywhere with xh and kids during visitation, except for Christmas day. I wonder if having her there is making him tense? He seemed actually very sweet this morning until later when he picked up crutches with OW in tow.
Point taken he owns the crutches, and wheelchair. He's also very posessive over the bedding he purchased for the girls beds and was very insistant that they bring it back to his place and keep it there. The girls brought one comforter home a long time ago. Recently he told the girls it needs to be brought back. However it was to be washed before returning it because there might be cat hair on it from our house.
I called D9 to see how she was and heard xh and ow talking in the background as they were in the vehicle. My blood ran cold and I started to shake. However during the conversation I asked her what she was doing and where she was. D9 would ask them " where are we going now?"
All the sudden it would get quiet, they would stop talking. Gee guess they think Im going to hunt them down and try to kill somebody like her Xh did mine 4 years ago?
So as of now I feel like a fool. I feel like a fool because I was given so many mixed messages, and got so confused over what I still swear is MLc after bomb drop 9 months ago. Yet maybe Im the one that's got the problem. Here I am analyzing every step he makes, when maybe he really is trying to be nice and friendly and co-parent? I get the idea that spewing is normal with all divorcing couples? Im tired of analyzing everything, yet at the same time I have finally learned so much about xh, given the enlightement of MLC and Pa behavior, I feel like every interaction with him must be proceeding with the utmost caution, even when keeping it simple!
Im curious. ARe any of these OP that shack up with these MLCers nice, decent, and good people? ARe they as caring and loving as the LBS's are?
Can they be the type that will badmouth the LBS, and even help the Mlcer with demonizing us, just egging us along?
According to my kids she really doesn't get involed with them at all and doesn't act motherly to my girls. It more like she's there for him, but she doesn't really wish to get involved with the kids.
Kimmerz,
I don't understand why your xh had to rush out and get crutches and a wheelchair since you do not know when you are to go to the Shriner's Hospital. BTW, that is a very good hospital. The equipment could have been rented at CVS or at a local hospital supply store. Also, your daughter may be provided with crutches after her surgery that will be "fitted" to her particular height and needs. It does sound like he's trying to help with the co-parenting, but he needs to slow down and wait and see what transpires w/the surgery, i.e., as to what your daughter will require in the way of equipment when she returns home.
I would venture to say that your xh was having a tense outing today and the OW being along just wasn't helping the situation at all. I can just imagine him being possessive over the bedding. He purchased it, therefore, he owns it and doesn't want you to keep it. Keep in mind...it's a possession of his.
You are not a fool...don't ever say that. You know exactly what you've been dealing with...PA behavior and trust me, he will get back into that mode again very soon.
It's difficult to say whether there are any OPs that are just as nice and decent as we are. We don't know what our spouses have told them about us and the situation...most don't want to be bothered w/the children.
Kimmerz, your daughter will be in good hands. You need to now focus on her and be sure that you take care of yourself as well. Keep all of your focus on your child...she needs your complete and undivided attention in the days to come.
Kimmerz,
During my lengthy drive to a client's home today I had the same question. I then looked over my past interactions with my W before the S, and realized that since I graduated and got job, I have been irritable and anxious, because I was putting stress and expectations on myself that I thought others were putting on me. The thing is, they weren't. I am realizing that now and relaxing more.
The sad thing is that I started my job and got married in the same week. So maybe, W is not in MLC? I don't know. I still think her choices of handling the switch was horrible and her choice in the guy to replace me is downright disgusting, but those are her choices and I put myself in this position, or at least played a part in it.
I know that we both had some PA behaviors, but I have noticed mine now and have stopped it.
This is my sitch and may not apply to you. I just wanted you to know that I had that exact same question today and now I come home and see it on your thread. Amazing!
It's nice to know that we are not alone.
Good luck with your daughter and remember to forgive yourself if you find doubts about yourself, H, or OW. It's only human.
Im curious. ARe any of these OP that shack up with these MLCers nice, decent, and good people? ARe they as caring and loving as the LBS's are?
Well you are a nice person: would you get involved with a married man/woman and help to destroy their family? Or would you expect someone who claims to be in an unhappy relationship to finish it first if it was so bad, (do the right and moral thing, act with integrity) and then start looking?
The OP is usually very needy and or a rescuer.
To be fair my wife has just had a brief relationship terminated because my son told the OM a few truths about his mother, she had obviously lied to her OM. Poor guy has just divorced his wife because of: yes you guessed, infidelity.
I think what bothers me the most is that xh told me very little about this OW and their relationship and just claimed she was a friend all along. And that nothing really started until after he moved out. Yet when you look back at history there was an emotional affair with them for years. What I dont know is what happened the last time he left me 2 years ago between those two. He was gone for 2 days and then came back crying wanting to try. He appeared depressed and sad, and I had a feeling he went running to her and she turned him down or something.
But I don't believe him ( that nothing was ever happening between them) and I told him that. He said that he can understand how I would feel that way given her xh shot him thinking they were having an affair.
That's the only explanation I got. Maybe I should've pressed for more questions. His explanation when he admitted he had been seeing her for almost 2 months was that they'd been friends forever and this was just something new. When I asked him how long he was in love with her, he couldn't answer. When I asked him if he'd marry her, he replied pretty intensely "F***NO!!!....OMG....NO!" I told him it looked kinda weird given he'd only been on his own 2 months and he moved her right in. He got defensive and said " Well it didn't exactly happen like that!"
I just don't know what's the truth, what's a lie, what's a PA move or what. Im the type of person that wants answers and I never got them. But even if I pressed on he wouldn't have answered!
Kimmerz,
You will never get the correct answer to your questions about your xh and the ow. The op was most likely waiting in the wings and yes, maybe it did start out as a friendship and went on to an EA before becoming a PA. Who knows what actually transpired between the two of them after your xh was shot. This action may be brought them even closer...we just don't know.
This is one area of concern that you are going to have to let go. Maybe in time, the answers will come, but I wouldn't hold my breath on it. The spouses are not always forthcoming when it comes to their relationships w/the ops and the story will change each time to suit them as well as to tell you what they think you want to hear.
I've been exactly where you are in sitting and thinking about the relationship. You may never get the answers you are looking for and by trying to figure it out, it will drive you crazy. Oh, him saying that he would never marry here...I've heard that one too. Some do and some don't marry the op.
Hey Kimmerz. You are torturing yourself at the moment. To be expected, but let me help you for a second:
Are the OM/OW decent people. Some likely are. They can be lied to just like others. Are most of them? Who cares? They are not what caused the spouse to leave. The spouse did.
Ever hear that perspective is important? In my case, I noticed I was looking at things wrong. I looked at it as this other guy taking my place. Silly me, he can't. But my kids get two dads! Lucky kids
How does that apply to you? Is fighting what is helpful? Are you hanging on to things you should not?
I'm guessing so by the questions you are asking.
I know it's frustrating. I know you have tons of questions and when you start to get your wobbly legs on solid ground and under you, the spouse may come along and knock them right out from you. If you let them.
But the key is in you. As you find it and figure it out, you'll see things much more differently. The sadness will start to ebb away and you'll realize what a great person you are compared to anyone. You'll realize you have your opinions and it's ok to share them. You'll realize you were living under a shadow for longer than you may have realized. You became accustomed to it, but it's not to say that's right or a good way to live.
You'll see
Stay focused on the things you can do and can control. Stay focused on what's important and your ex is not important to your life nor your girls right now. He may never be, but that's his issue to deal with. Let him do it his way. You can't change it anyway....
AJ
Im taking my D up to the hospital 6 hours away for an evaluation and they may do surgery tomorrow.
Xh will be coming up with OW if this is the case. He's been very good the past few days and has gone into mother hen mode with D9. He is now acting like the man I remembered him to be for the most part, yet I've seen him switch personalities on me 3 times today... and these were in person this time.
We had been texting on and off quite heavily in regards to D9 and her conidtion this afternoon and how to handle it. He was very normal, open and friendly. He's dived into this, read up on it, and is already trying to figure out how we're going to take care of her after surgery. I came home and found out we had to get her into the hospital tomorrow and ended up calling him. The first time we spoke on the phone since a year or so. However his tone was very cold and a bit hostile when speaking to me. I was a bit suprised given he seemed so nice and caring via text just minutes earlier. Very few words from him.. He agreed to bring the kids home as they were visiting with him and we'd decide what to do from there.
Then he brought ths girls home an hour later and is a completely different person....the man I used to know, my old friend, and the good guy I rememberd him to be. He's been nice via text since.
Yes Im very clear on how looking at things in different perspectives changes everything. I was doing a very good job of that up until he and I resumed communication after a 3 month hiatus. Why? Because dealing with an x spouse that is switching moods and attitudes like he does is exhausting and tries my very patience! I got into the habit of allowing myself to give my personal power to him in order to live my life around his moods swings. Im now realizing that. What I mean by personal power is that his moods were so sour at home for so long, I was constantly in a mental state of trying to figure out how to not upset him, or how I could make him happy. It was always about him and I always took the blame for not being able to fix it. Well during the 3 months hiatus from communcation, I started to get my power back! I knew I could live alone and be happy and I could raise my girls without his communication! Then when communication starts again, it's the same old mood swings. I decided I was not going to fight with him, keep my boundaries, and yet still be kind. WEll it's the harest thing to do when all you want to do is just choke them, especially when they're snapping attitude one minute then sweet the next.
I do feel switched out. It hurts that he grew closer to her and pulled away from me.
What really hurts the most is me thinking that he did still love me, but he really didn't. He loved someone else. That's what kills me.
At anyrate I gotta go to bed and get my baby up to the hospital. Im leaving at 3 a.m.
Thank you for all the well wishes.
Kimmerz,
I hope that everything goes well today and your daughter's surgery takes place w/o a hitch. I'll be thinking of you and your family today. Please let us know how she does.
As for your xh, do what you need to do to get through this time. Once your daughter is home and recovered, go back to as little contact as possible.
Take care.
Hello Everyone,
My daughter had an operation yesterday afternoon and was released today. WE're back home and she's on the road to recovery. She's already feeling alot better and the orginal pain is gone. The new pain is in the incision site but is just sore and she doesn't seem to be in pain.
Thank you for all your concern. It was pretty emotional for us. Xh was there and didn't bring OW after all. Was so glad.Never was so happy to see his face as I was when he walked into the pre op room. D9 was getting scared and emotional and I was too. When she left for surgery we both cried! We got along fine, almost like nothing ever happened between us. Pretty amazing how the love of your children can make the most stubborn and petty (me and xh) pull their heads out of their butts and forget about such things, and focus on what really matters. Think a little healing was going for all 4 of us yesterday as we all spent time as a family. Though the circumstances were scary, it was so nice to be together again all 4 of us.
At any rate thanks for everything guys!
Kimmerz,
Did you file or he? Sorry but I get the impression from your post you hope some sort of reconnection is taking place. It's a given your D wants and needs her daddy now but don't let your desires for a reunited family override your sensibilities.
Have no expectations.p
Kimmerz,
I'm happy to read that your daughter had her surgery and is doing well. I'm sure all of you were scared of what the surgery may entail, but she came through it and now her recovery will begin.
I'm also glad to see that your xh did not bring the ow w/him. At least he came and was there to sit and wait w/you and your family prior to and during the surgery.
I'm w/sleeper on this one, keep your expectations at zero when it comes to him. He may have stepped up to the plate a few days ago, but he can go right back down into the rabbit hole in a blink of an eye.
Wishing your daughter a very speedy recovery.
Hi Everyone,
yes I was scared but as it turns out it's a pretty simple procedure. The operation itself was less than an hour, and the results are already amazing. The challenge will be from keeping her out of mischeif so it can heal.
Sleeper: it was xh that started divorce proceedings 1 week after he told me we weren't getting divorced.....LOl. He admitted to me it was in the heat of the moment because I made him mad and he felt I accused him to stealing the children from him.....which was not the case!
You know what I"ve noticed through this whole MLC thing, is just how impulsive they tend to be and how they act out on emotions, rather than thinking things through. Hell I've done that myself, backsliding when intensely angry with him. But it didn't take me long to learn that controlled patience and waiting to calm down and think things through is the best solution to any big decision. I think that's part of the reason i get so angry with him is because of how he tore out of here like a tornado, not thinking of any of the consequences of this all. He just did what he thought would make him happy.
I am so glad your daughter is home as well as you Ml'er not involving OW in all of this. That is all so much of a blessing. I agree the impulsiveness is such a key factor in Mid life crisis. Their brain has no connection to being rationale. Please take care of yourself
Kimmerz, so happy to hear your D is doing well.
Was also glad to hear your H showed some feelings and left ow home.
I agree with the others to keep your expectations at zero. If your H is a typical MLCer he has a ways to go.
The moments of clarity do show us the S we married is still in there.
Take care.
Hello everyone,
My head is spinning. I can't make heads or tails of whats going in on my mind. Im on a vent here, so bare with me, get a book mark, or don't even read. It just feels good to get this all out.
Being around xh in such a positive state lately has really shook me up. It's shaken me up because many things seem to be clearer to me about our marital breakdown,the big role I played that I wasn't even aware of, a reminder of who I remember my xh to truly be, and reliving what a strong family bond our two children and us still have together as one.
The man I married and I remember is here....my Prince Charming and Knight in Shining Armour. No telling when he'll check out again, but right now he's here. He drove like a bat out of hell to get to us for D9's surgery, and kept in consistent contact via text as we were traveling to make sure we were ok. WE got lost at one point and time and he called to see if we were ok and needed help...even though he was 1 hour behind us. The girls and I are girl Scouts, so we pulled it together and found the hospital, though a nerve wracking experience. The Shriners hospital we dook D9 to is 5 hours away. So we had to spend the night there and spend alot of time together. We stayed all day with d9, and I stayed in her room with her. Xh took D12 with him and they got a motel room for the night.
So we spent alot of time together. I expected it to be akward, and tension filled. The interesting thing was, it was the farthest thing from that. WE were comfortable with one another and talking as if nothing has ever happened, and it felt that way too. We teased eachother a bit, and were doing our usual inside jokes with the girls that only all 4 of us would understand. Xh complimented me to D9 in me spending all night with her on a couch.
We did alot of small talk, comparing apps to our iphones, he trying to help me downlod some things, etc. Of course talking about the girls and concern and watching over d9 consistently. Our shoulders were touching as we were comparing iphones, and he didn't pull away or seem uncomfortable at all. A few months ago he would step away if I got within 2 feet away from him, constantly trying to keep me at arms length, if not more. The the next day d9 in her wheelchair, xh and I were crowded in a little area of her room. I had to step over his legs and put my hand on his knee for balance. Figured that would've sent him through the roof, he would've jumped up and ran across the room, but nope. He didn't seem to have any problem with it. No problem at all in being in any close proximity with me.
AFter D9 was dischaged he took D12 with him and I still having d9 with me in my vehicle. We traveled together to get back on the freeway and out of the metro area. It brought back memories of the many times we've moved and I've followed his lead out of so many places. And just like clock work, we clicked into place, and worked together in driving like we used to.
D9 and and I got home about 3 hours before they did.They were to stop on the way and see an old mutal friend for a visit. AS it turns out he took D12 to the mall for a bit and spent some alone time with her. I was so happy to hear that, because if anyone needs more one to one time with him, it is her. So much damage done with her, she's been so hurt over this divorce. He dropped d12 off when back into town. He came into the house for the first time in months to see d9 before he went back to his place. He was still totally at ease, and talking to me about their trip down. When he left I patted him on the back and said " thanks for everything". He just said "uh huh" in his chipper little way and turned around a said a few things and left. He didn't pull away for act uncomfortable that I touched him again. He knows Im a touchy feely person too.
Since then we're in consistent contact about D9, trying to figure out some things for her, and joking around with one another. He quickly responds to me texts and we just seem to enjoy eachothers semi, text messsaging, talking about the kids compay. It was also the birth of our children that really bonded us in such a special way.
By the things he said and did during this time, I can see that he still cares about me and misses our family unit very much. It was written all over his face, for the man has a very POOR POKER FACE. I know him too well. I guess what has struck me is that I always felt in order for me to really know he still cared, I'd have to to hear the words and he speak to me face to face, and then back it up with lots of proof. But here I am with this man, and I just know. He doesn't even have to say anything. I dont feel Im grasping at straws or trying to convince myself. He still cares a great deal about me. I sense this huge anger and resentment he's had towards me has finally started to lift and he sees me for the good things he still remembers in me too. Given he's not one to come forth and apologize, it's just like him to act more of the part of apology then to come right out and say it.
So I guess what Im trying to put into place here is what's going on??? What kind of perspective should I try this time? If I take this as positive, am I setting myself up for heart ache? Having 0 expectations is a very hard one for me, but Im getting alot better at it. Because he truly has strong PA actions, but not as bad as some people can be, it's been confusing. I've been in somewhat of a total recall mode since Saturday, recalling everything that's happened this past year. What I perceived as him having OW in the wings for so long, might've been a big mistake on my part. AS I recall, I think xh was really thinking things over and considering getting back together. But my firey attitude and backslide ( hadn't discovered DB yet) just shoved him in OW direction.
What had happened was I had given him a book called "What women want men to Know" by Barbara DeAngeles. He gladly took that book and read it when he always used to poo- poo such a thing......but me and my impatience got mad because my expectations were too high of him....evidence of my own PA behavior! I expected him to start talking openly about this book and it's contents. I expected alot of things from him and when he didn't do it, I got impatient and asked for the book back. Apparently he still wanted to read it, but because I asked for it back, he took that as a sign I WAS DONE and didn't want to try anymore. He gave it back and never said anything about it till a month later. It was one week later he took off out of town to see OW come to find out.
I can see xh is happy in his new life. He's getting the attention he wanted from me from someone else. Due to the PA behavior he just couldn't ask me in a way I could understand.Due to my impatience and being just as frustrated I wasn't communicating any better either. What do you do when you can see all the things you've done wrong, didn't know you were doing wrong, and would've done them better? What do you do when you're so sorry you can't bare to be in your own skin? What do you do when you still love this person, despite all the rotten things you've done to one another?
I can see exactly how and why things went wrong, and how it just snoballed into one huge disaster. Due to ignorance, pride, and tempers, what was actually very good has just died. You can't turn back time, but you can rebuild and make it better than before. That's all I've wanted to do. But given he's with someone else, and we're divorced this week, I figure what's the use in trying? Just let him go and move on. Yet how do you do that when what was so special and such a bond with that person has just been put right before you again? Is this a chance to make things right, or just more looking at what was good and saying good bye again?
Kimmerz,
I can understand your confusion and your thoughts whirling around in your head. Let me just say this and please don't take it the wrong way....there is a chance to make things right between you....but...he's the one that needs to make things right. Why? Because he's the one that walked out and took up with twinkle twat. He's the one that left the marriage long before he dropped the bomb.
If he is absolutely sure he wants to return to relationship, he is the one that has to prove to you that he can do it and remain there and work things out. It's not your place to twist yourself up into knots to make him happy.
What do you do? You just be yourself, don't jump through hoops trying to win him back. Keep your expectations at zero and I do mean zero at all times. If you don't, you are going to set yourself up for more heartache and you don't need that right now.
I do believe that your daughter's surgery shook him up a bit, but his crisis is far from over. Please focus on your child right now...she needs you. If he truly is waking up, he will find a way to make it right. If he comes to you and wants to talk, listen to what he has to say.
everything that snodderly said, and I would add...
maybe you have figured this out and maybe you haven't...
but, what does "move on" look like, to you? How would it be different than what you are doing, right now? I don't mean trying to keep the road home, paved and smooth... I mean... are you saying that moving on means starting to actively date? Or is moving on continuing to be the best mom you can be, working on yourself, and whatever the future brings... so be it?
Figure out what "move on" looks like, for you...
Hey guys...
Well I went to see my attorney today. Xh is now trying to get the smallest amount of child support figured as he can. He got smart and worked 3 days a week for a month so he could reap the benefits of my attorney figuring child support 200.00 less than what his attorney figured out back in November. I swear he put on his extra nice this month because he didn't want to make me mad enough to take him to court over this. That jackass knew exactly what he was doing.
Snodderly, thank you for reminding me that it's up to him to prove he wants to come back, not me to turn myself in knotts. I agree that her surgery might have brought him back to earth for a few days, but in all reality that man has lost it! If you could see the financial statements, and see the proof of all the money he's pissed away, you'd be sick. And he sat here and planned all this right under my nose! I still can NOT get over how someone can take that amount of money, and not do the right thing with it, and pay off their debts and pave their way to rebuliding their credit and therefore the stability of their financial lives! He has screwed me, he's screwed his kids, and even mostly screwed himself.
I am sickened....his father's side of the family chose to give him extra shares of the inheritence in place of his deceased father. On top of that they included him in a family law suit and the cash settlements are very lucrative. Yet he chose to blow it all! My god, I know MLCers lose all rationality, but when they're cutting their nose off despite their faces and actually shooting themselves in their own feet!
At any rate, Kaffe....for the longest time I think what I've focused on in regards to moving on is how I figured I would feel when moving on. To me moving on means I will have no more feelings for the man, good or bad, I will be indifferent. I will no longer give us a second thought, and will just focus on my own life without batting an eye.
Well let me tell you, I think that day has come. I can forgive him, but I will never forget. Anyone that is this selfish and reckless with money has got serious issues and I don't wish to be involved in that. I think I just tend to go into denial at times about how rotten he is, because I just don't want to admit this is how bad he's gotten. Especially after what appears to be him peaking out of the tunnel. Im just the kind of person that believes there is good in all people. There is still good in him, but the bad is pretty damn rotten and corrupt. I still want to hold on to the sweet person I thought he used to be.
Kaffee thank you for reminding me that moving on can mean just going on with life and taking it one day at a time. See I have a habit of knowing where I am, and knowing where I want to be, but having the patience to get there is where I lose it at times. I can make a great plan, and work my plan great, but when my plans get hiccups, well I just get so frustrated. So a hiccup for me all this time was still remaining so emotionally attatched to him. However as I think of things, and how god has a plan, I think the plan was, God had to get him out of the way and for me to be forced to step back and really see him for who he is now.
It's still the hardest thing I've had to go through. Im grateful for these moments because it really does show me the kind of person I am, and that I really am a good person, a great mom, and I that I really am working on myself, even if I get down in the dumps! So damn it I guess I have been moving on all along!
I recently had a friend post one of those words of wisdom quotes on my fb page: "
Forgiving people who have hurt you is your gift to them. Forgetting people who have hurt you is your gift to yourself."
I know it was posted with good intention, but I had to chuckle and shake my head when I read it.
We should never forget anyone who has been a part of our lives. They contributed tremendously to our lives in many ways.
Just because I was hurt by my W's decision to remove herself from my life, does not mean that I should forget her or forget the positive things and ways that she contributed to my life. I would get NO value to forget her and I would get NO value from forgetting either the positive OR the negative impact she had on my life.
Wendy had been talking on my thread about letting go in a loving way. How it is difficult to do so. It has taken me a long time and a lot of work to get there. And as I mentioned to Wendy, it is not something that everyone has to do. How you move on with your life is completely up to you. Whether you want to move forward bitter, indifferent or in a loving way is completely up to you.
About a month ago, my W once again suggested that I be the one to file D. She then said rhetorically wondered out loud about where my head was at regarding the D and asked me to let her know when I was ready to discuss it. I let her know a couple days later that I was ready to discuss it. She has not since brought it up.
In fact, I will be taking my kids to a sporting event my D14 is participating in over the border and, without leaving it up to me and without asking me my ability and capacity to take care of the planning, has gone ahead and searched out accommodations, even letting me know that she would book the room on her work's credit card...
So I have a choice...
I can tell her to mind her own business, I'll figure it out.
I can tell her thanks, but no thanks...
Or... I can just let her do what she does, and what she wants to do... thank her for it and carry on...
Those are just three different ways I can handle it.
I can be completely indifferent to her gesture...
But rather, I will be grateful of her offer. I don't need it and I could do all the work and I can put the room on my CC, etc, etc, etc...
She is providing me with a value and I can be grateful for it.
So...
You are welcome for the reminder that moving on is what you make of it.
There's something a little bizarre about the person who wants to eject from a long term M... and yet does things over and above what a "friend" might do...
But life goes on... whatever the future brings... so be it...
Well Kaffe, I have light years to go before I reach where you are. Light years.
As far as Im concerned accepting something like that would not be appropriate for me.
"There's something a little bizarre about the person who wants to eject from a long term M... and yet does things over and above what a "friend" might do..."
Why do you think they do these things?
Im sitting here just stewing over how it's damn near like this " free Love" sort of thing. I don't get it. It's like they say " Oh Im going to move on and be with another person because I don't love you anymore, but lets just stay and be the best of friends anyway. Oh you're hurt? Why are you even suprised? Why would you be hurt? Why does it matter to you that we've been together for many years and I want to move on?"
I just don't get it Kaffe. The only way I can get over being bitter is to become indifferent. I feel played by this man everytime I have an positive interaction with him. However I realize that's me and how I handle my emotions.
It just infuriates me that they have no consideration for our heartbreak and honestly have no respect for it. My xh knew I was heartbroken, yet he wouldn't leave me alone! Major cake eating and caused nothing but mixed signals from me. Perhaps Im thinking that doing the 180's and acting as if doesn't help because they really are done and they really want you to be ok with what their choices are. So they're under the impression that you're ok with the split, when you really aren't. guess that's where i wonder if I pushed him in the other direction of other woman by giving him the impression I was done by asking for my relationship book back. He said he figured I was done because I asked for it back.
OMG... I gotta get this man outta my head. At times I get so fed up with this I wish I were dead, just to escape the frustraion and pain.
Kim, I'm 45 this year. I am an ACOA (both parents). I have quite truly been a student of the human condition, in a active, immersed and involved way, for at least 30 years.
One of the things I forget often, I am most entertained by. It is that... people forget that we are human.
There are a million reasons why people are the way the are and do the things they do. And it all boils down to one thing. They are human.
We can say he/she did this, that and the other thing... because they are borderline personality, because the are passive/aggressive, because they are ACOA, because, because, because...
They do the things they do because they are human. Your H has objectified you, which is why he is able to do things that come across as being hurtful. Because he is human... and humans by nature do not want to hurt anyone... but everyone knows that we can't hurt an object...
And on the more extreme side of that, people sometimes feel they have the power (and some feel the right) to hurt others. Because it serves some need for them. That too is very human.
I remind myself often that I am no more or less human than anyone else. That every single human out there is absolutely capable of the highest form of altruism and the most heinous crime against humanity. Of running the fastest race or going to the moon or doing something that no human has ever done, before.
In the same way that every dog is capable of biting and mauling.
It appears to me, that most any M breakdown ends up being a struggle for control and power. Most Rs are about that. Often, that stems from a scarcity mind set. Meaning that there is only so much to go around.
When I told my L the terms my W had set out in the SA, my L told me in no uncertain terms, "That offer is insulting." If I were to have bought into that scarcity mind set, I would agree. What I know is, I could have walked away with nothing and I knew full well that I could make it up again.
Human battles are over scarcity. Not enough land, not enough money, not enough love... to go around... so we have to fight for our share...
There will be more land, there will be more money, there will be more love...
If I had another child, I wouldn't have to take some of the love from my other two kids in order to give to my new child... I would just make more love... If my fridge is out of food, I will find a way to make more food in my fridge...
Anyhow, the point is, he is human and is behaving in a very human way. You are human and are behaving in a very human way.
When we finally decide that we are done with our current state of being, we can then move on to a new state of being.
My mentors taught me this: When you are caught up playing someone else' game of win/loose and they are winning and you are loosing because it is their rules and their rules suit their needs... stop playing.
Kimmerz,
Your H sounds like a typical MLCer, if there is such a thing. I have heard of cases where the MLCer ran what were once successful businesses straight into the ground and lost everything.
It is very important to separate your financials from your H to make sure your kids and yourself are protected.
What your H has done by working less has been tried numerous times. According to my lawyer, judges are on to this and will review your H's work history if need be. Many times it doesn't work out as the WAS intended. If a judge did grant child support based on the reduced hours you always have the option to take your H back to court when he increases his work hours.
Try to think of this as a business deal. It helps take the emotion out of it.
What you have to try to remember is to not take any of what your H is doing, personally. I know, easy to say, and hard to do. None of what your H is doing is about you. This course was set for him long before you ever came into his life.
I mean, come on, taking a book back from him signaled to him that you were done with the marriage? Does that sound like rational justification to you? They will pull out anything they can to prove to themselves that they're doing the right thing by walking. MLCer's believe they're entitled to happiness. And so they walk out on everything they believe prevents that happiness.
Thing is from what I've seen, read, experienced, few, if any, find what they're looking for. It's a long road to that realization for them.
Like you, I used to pray for indifference to escape the pain. As H's crisis goes on I've taken on a different perspective. I started looking around to what I still have and not for what I've lost. If it wasn't for H, I wouldn't have the blessings of my children. I wouldn't have the place I live. Yes, he dumped it all in my lap along with all the responsibility of it, but from that I've learned a valuable lesson of perseverance and strength. I am whole without H and I can handle it. Yes, financially I still depend on H to help support the children we created. It is only right. I've learned that I don't need H, but I have not completely closed the door on him at this time. I've loved him for a long time. Enough to have developed compassion for what he's going through.
Kim, I would rather be on this side than going through what the MLCer goes through. Don't believe for one minute that your H isn't going through his own personal hell complete with intense guilt and pain. I know it may not seem so on the outside but once you're grounded and have stopped spinning, if you are still you'll see it clearly.
To me, there is a difference with moving on and moving forward. You definitely can keep moving forward without being ready to move on. You'll know when you're ready to move on.
Hang in there, we're walking right there beside you.
Kimmerz,
Everyone has been giving you great advice. There is one other piece that I shared many times here. Whenever a mlcer is nice, there most likely is going to an ulterior motive behind it. Just like in your case with the support payments and then your child's surgery. Granted, I might be wrong, but I find it very interesting how he didn't tell you what he did, but he ran out the gate first and got a wheelchair and crutches, etc. and then you find out what he's done this week.
I'm w/Seeking, the court should be evaluating all of his work history to come up with the dollar amount. Your h is playing the fast and loose game, which at some point will catch up w/him. Most definitely think of what is going on now as a business deal. Put your love for your xh aside because you are going to have to deal w/the finances w/a clear head. You can't allow your heart to dictate your actions when it comes to the finances.
It took me a very long to develop a thick skin and indifference to my xh. Once I was able to detach from his actions, I was able to see clearly and look at his behavior and know it wasn't rational. You'll get there too, but it's going to take some time.
I know that you are taking all of this personally and I can understand why you would think this way, but please don't. He is lashing out at the world and you happen to be the one he thinks is the cause of his unhappiness. YOU ARE NOT! He needs to spin in the wind for a very long time until he smacks the wall of reality. Kimmerz, it's time for you to take care of yourself and your children. It's time to let him go and allow yourself to move forward and it's okay to leave the door ajar, if and when he wakes up and wants to play catch up. But remember, he is the one that has to do the hard work of proving to you that he wants back into your life, not the other way around.
You guys thank you so much for your advice and words. I really needed that and it helped me get my perspective back. It's so easy to lose your perspective when emotions run high.
"My mentors taught me this: When you are caught up playing someone else' game of win/loose and they are winning and you are loosing because it is their rules and their rules suit their needs... stop playing."
I like this very much. It makes things so simple.
Tomorrow we go to court. Im nervous, because i feel so unprepared. Im afraid the judge is going to ask me something and I won't answer correctly. I feel unprepared because my attorney and I have been hoping to settle but xh won't respond.
Guess he wants the judge to settle it. Guess that's the best option.
Kimmerz,
Good luck today. Do not be afraid...just answer the questions honestly and you will be okay.
Hi Guys!
Just wanted to let you know that as of 6 p.m. last night xh and I came to a settlement! But because it was so late in the game we still have to go to court for the record. Im still dreading it, but because we've agreed, I think it will be more of the judge looking over things and approving it all.
Yes I must keep my game face on to protect myself and the girls. As hard and as emotional as it's been, had I not kept my game face on there is no telling what would've happened. I think xh would've quit paying child support months ago, and still would've kept the kids as messengers. It still amazes me how cold, insenstive, and rude he was a few months ago. If I hadn't gotten legal counsel to back me up, stood my ground with him ( kindly but firmly I must add) I don't think we'd be at the better place I think we may be atl. Time will tell. I do know it takes xh many weeks or months to digest big issues. Partly because he wants to avoid it, partly because he doesn't know what to do, partly because....well I don't know!
Thank you everyone. I'll keep you updated!
Just reading these posts and wishing you luck in court today. The advice of all you DB'ers is a lifeline to my sanity. Thank you.
Hello everyone. Court was a breeze. I learned more by watching the case before ours.
Xh spoke to me at court, just asking if D9 will go back to school tomorrow. He looked tense and stressed. I watched him as he was sitting there before we were called up. He looked very unhappy. He walked out looking very unhappy. I pretty sure he's stressed to the maxx over money.
But Im feeling really good though. I thought things getting settled would make me feel worse, but it's a real relief.
Kimmerz,
Glad to hear that court went well and that you are feeling relieved.
Im curious, what have people learned in regards to co dependence and how it applies to them. does anyone wish to share, or have any advice?
I was reading on a website about co dependence a while ago and I about fainted. I found that my marriage was a co-dependent, counter dependent relationship and he and I actually switched roles.
We're both ACOAs as well. I think the first thing I'd like to do in working on myself is really understanding the co dependence in me. I haven't gotten the Book Codependence No more, but there is so much to read online I think that's a good start till I can get a new book.
My daughter is going back to school tomorrow. So glad because she's getting bored and getting bossy! LOL. she's very independent so I know being slowed down by crutches is frustrating for her.
Xh seems to be feeling better and we have carried on a good conversation in regards to the kids tonight. Having some trouble with the two fighting and oldest one and self esteem issues. I have to say it's very nice that my co-parent has decided to show up and participate again. I've taken alot on all by myself over the last several months. He now seems like he wants to make a joint effort in parenting together....for now.
I think that book may give you a lot of great insight and suggestions to get out of / stay out of a co-D relationship.
I actually have no suggestions. The only thing for me is, simply do not get into co-D behaviours, no matter WHO. Whether my parents, my spouse, my kids, my friends...
For me, that means refraining from doing things for others because of any feelings of obligations or in order to "make them" like me or want me. I believe in this regard, one needs to be VERY CLEAR what their intentions are, in relation to others.
IDK... that's just my thoughts...
Just an update:
I have no idea what to think anymore. Xh seems to be a changed man....for the better.
Since December we went from 3 months of NC and spewing to:
*No more spewing.
*Told kids he quite online gaming because he's too busy doing other things now!
*Very active in parenting with the girls and parenting together with me. Initiates alot of contact in regards to the kids.
* Has become the social person he used to be, knowing all his neighbors in his apartment complex. I haven't seen him this social in years.
* Talks to me in person now and is very nice.
* Treats me with a respect now. If I text, he answers. He no longer avoids me anymore.
* Offered for me to claim both girls on the taxes without any arguments.
* Has been good at letting me know when he will send child support payments and pays when he says he will pay.
*Went from livid about me requesting spousal support to actually offering it to me in the divorce settlement.
* Was still speaking to me on our court day and was nice.
* Appears to enjoy talking about the kids and the funny things they do with me.
* Very informative of how the kids are getting along, what they ate, their homework, and what notes they have from school when dropping them off.
So what Im just wondering about is what is going on here? Do you suppose he's done baking? Did the ghosts of MLC past come haunt him? I don't understand why he's being so nice for so long. Snodderly says they usually want something when they do this, but for the life of me I have no idea what he'd want.
I still feel like Im walking on egg shells. Im hoping maybe as time goes by maybe I could just ask him what's going on with him because I see positive changes.
At the same time it bothers me a little. I noticed he warmed up to me better after I emailed him and told him I still care about him and always will. I apologized for any and all heartbreak I ever caused him. It bothers me because if he still cares enough to be nice and respectful I wish he'd just give me the courtesy to apologize for his actions too. But he's never been one to do that unless he wanting to move back in! with him it would be like something would just blow over and nothing ever happened.
Im not getting my hopes up that he will come back. I don't think I want him back, but at the same time Im still really sorting my feelings out in regards to him too.
It's probably as simple as he's moved on and let go and isn't angry, yet Im still sitting here singed and feeling very much ONCE BITTEN TWICE SHY.
The only thing I'd worry about the above, is that he told the kids he quit gambling because he's too busy, now...
It would have been nice if he had said he quit gambling because he realized it was not good for him. IOW, he didn't admit he had a problem. Maybe he didn't, but his statement might suggest that if he gets bored again, he'll take up gambling again... that could just be me being paranoid.
But... what does he want...? You won't know he wants anything unless he asks...
The only thing you might guess he wants, is to have a better, more respectful R with you at this time, and with the kids...
To me, that seems too long to just "want" something... especially when the ask hasn't come yet... and normally, when I see this, as soon as the ask happens and I agree, it's back to "same ol', same ol'"... This behaviour almost seems like... a habit...
but like you said, no sense getting your hopes up. And no sense poking the bear... IF he is coming around... IF his fog has cleared... IF he wants back... wait for him to ask... otherwise... assume he is just trying to turn over a new leaf of his life...
And also in the regard of him maybe asking to work on the R, because as you indicated, you certainly let him know that you might still be an option... he could be working up to that, but you never know that his head won't explode if you say, "No, I'm happy without you" or "I'm not sure, let's take things slow"...
Kimmerz,
I'm w/Kaffe...he's not gaming now, but busy doing other things...Notice he didn't tell the children what he's doing now. Sounds like his attention has turned to something else. Time will tell as to whether he returns to gaming or not.
Kimmerz, your h could very well be having longer periods of clarity. Maybe he is trying to have a better relationship w/you because he wants to be more involved in co-parenting. Until he actually tells you what is on his mind, I wouldn't focus on "what he wants". He will tell you in his own way what he wants when he is ready to talk. No, I do not think he's baked completely. He still has a ways to go, but he's baking up rather nicely, but remember, keep your expectations at zero at all times.
Learn to accept him for who he is right now...you are lucky that he's stepping up to the plate a bit. Try not to question his behavior too much because it will drive you crazy. Just remember...zero expectations.
Hey Snodderly and Kaffe,
Boy do I appreciate your insights and support on this issue.
I've noticed something within me the past few weeks. I've seriously been having the feelings of an MLCer. But thanks to learning about MLC, I can really identify what the core issue is within myself, and that if I did have my husband here and say the situation was reversed there would be no reason to flip out and board the Mothership....lol.
I'm in this state of feeling what the MLCers tend to feel. I feel like it should be my turn in life because I've been so busy providing for everyone, being the money maker, putting people's needs ahead of my own, not being able to do what I want to do, etc...you know the drill! Infact it's been so bad I've actually felt the need to run myself, and even put some thought (only 5 minutes at a time though) of actually handing the kids over to stbx so I can go and FIND MYSELF! I feel like running because alone I don't have to be anything to anyone, just me.
Well hello Kim!!! Welcome to the result of living co-dependently for years and not knowing how to take care of yourself!
It dawned on me that what I really need to do is learn to take care of myself actively, and I can do this without having to ditch my kids. If I had my husband here, well it would be a time to talk to him about it instead of pointing the finger at him and blaming him for my unhappiness. My unhappiness for many years has been because I haven't taken care of myself, and have to an extent expected outside sources to do it for me.
So in a way Im glad to have these emotions come over me because I now can really relate as to what pushes them over the edge. Had I not had this valuable knowledge of MLC and great friends here to learn from, well I probably wouldn't be any better off than stbx was at one time.
For me so many things come together. Who would think something so simple really could be so hard to really grasp. Must be from years of thinking the wrong way.
They would call what you may be about to go through, a life transition.
The difference between that and MLC is the C... crisis...
A person in transition recognizes and manages their responsibilities and obligations... and STILL goes out to "find themselves"...
a person in crisis heads into "the fog" and forgets that they have responsibilities and obligations...
Good for you. Find yourself, don't fight it... because MLC strikes when we fight the transition by not looking into ourselves to discover what makes us tick and integrating that into ourselves while purging the stuff that's been holding us back...
MLC generally is a biological, emotional "catch up" because a prior transition or transitions were avoided by the person because they feared looking inside...
Just to add, I am starting to think that the more "mild" MLC cases are more of a "less controlled" transition... there is mild confusion, mild irresponsibility, mild self destructive behaviours... you get the idea...
Those classic examples of extremes, which combine craziness on all levels... those are just the ones that are REALLY obvious and great examples for humour and observational learning...
Wow Kaffe
Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. It's actually a comfort to hear that Im more thank likely having a life transition instead of a crisis. I was starting to get worried! I've been thinking " oh no my poor kids. first their father and now their mother???" Nope....they're priority in life. However I need to find a way to start making me a prioritiy too, but of course never to abandon my kids.
This was very good to think about today. How do I find myself? Or do I still really know who I am, Im just a little lost and not sure what direction to go in? As you said purge what's been holding me back. As I look back at what I've wanted for Myself, well I never really thought of myself, I thought of my family. I wanted what was best for all of us. Home was where my kids and husband was. I did desire to move to a bigger city where there is more things to do, and a chance for an education for myself. But given the way things were, well I figured the best thing for me to do is just make the best of where I was. So I did.
But I always have been one to want to move forward in life, and strive for whatever it is needed or really wanted at the time. You know now that I think about it, I did have it all figured out. But as I was figuring it out, MLC hit stbx. I think he went MLC, and I've been life transition.
What would you consider a mild MLC?
A mild MLC is one where the person doesn't run away or takes up w/another person. For example, someone w/a mild mlc may take up a hobby and really just focus on the hobby. My father had a very mild mlc many years ago, i.e., he worked in his garden all of the time and if he wasn't there, he was fishing. These two hobbies became and obsession w/him for quite some time. This went on for quite some time and then one day, fishing was over and done with and the gardening went away slowly but surely and he began to notice his surroundings and became more interested in things around him. Mild MLCs tend to be just blips on the radar and do not have the crisis modes going into full gear. Just so you are aware, we all go through transitions and it's all in how we deal w/them. The coping skills that we learned early on are what help us along the way, as well as the environment that we grew up in.
Ok guys a little help would be appreciated.
First of all, just what are the expectations of an MLCer towards us LBS? What do they want from us? You know I have never felt more betrayed and disrespected as a person than I have with my stbx.
stbx has a bad habit of waiting till the DAY BEFORE his weekend to tell me WHEN HIS WEEKEND IS so he can have the kids. So once again in the last hour, he has just sent me a text saying " I don't think I got my schedule to you. It's the same as it's been the last 2 weeks, and I have mon - tue off. work early wed". Meaning his day off it tomorrow, so I just told the girls, " Ok guys after we do our plans tomorrow we're coming home and you're going to your dads".
This irritates the hell out of me. He got his schedule 3 days ago. I just wait for him to tell me because I AM SICK AND TIRED OF DOING ALL THE DAMN LEG WORK IN THIS RELATIONSHIP, EVEN NOW WE'RE ALMOST DIVORCED.
Any tactful ideas as how to explain to him I don't like this? Truthfully the kids don't like knowing at the last minute. This is true passive aggressive behavior. All I know to do is put my foot down and tell him the truth. I sense he's falling back into his old habits of " Kim will go along with anything I say just as along as Im nice and do it with a smile on my face".
I've done alot of soul searching this weekend and have realized why my feelings are so conflicting or so LOVE/HATE with him.
The rose colored glasses are coming off.
Yes there was a time during this year I would've done anything to have him come back and be here as a family. However over time I realized that my feelings in that regard were starting to change. Part of me wants NOTHING to do with him, while the other says I do still want to rebuild a relationship with him.
I now know that part of me wanting something with him is really just my yearning for isssues to become resolved between us, or to finish unfinished business. His avoidant behavior during the marriage and certainly after BD has made me crazy. When you're involved with someone that's avoidant and passive aggressive to every extent you can think of, it really changes you. I now see Im still living as that person that lived with that man. And when one thing that would seem so trivial to someone that has NOT been involved with this man for 22 years comes up, I start to snap!
Im feeling mega defensive and like Im the bear getting poked. Yes maybe he's doing several things now that are in a positive manner, however I can see it's me that has the problem with it. I feel very resentful that he can sail in here like Super Dad and Best Ex husband ever, without acknowledging to me that he hurt me and offer an apology! What does he think that just acting the part of a kind person makes up for all he's done to me and the kids? Or does he even care?
Maybe it's just me and the 5 Love Language thing. Im a total Words of Affirmation and Physical Touch person. Where as he is Acts of Service and Gift giving. We do act out our Love language, so where words of affirmation are what Im seeking and really needing, he's busting ass to do acts of service instead of speaking the words.....that is if he really is trying to convey he's sorry and wants to help.
I don't know, Im just sick and tired of all this. I just either want him to leave me along and keep it the strictest of business OR just resolve some stuff. But based on past experiences I figure he's just got it in his mind that Im completely OK WITH EVERYTHING, OW INCLUDED, and I want to be his friend and it's all under the bridge and we can be friends now. I think I gave him the wrong message by me busting ass just trying to get some cooperation with him in regards to his visiations.
Snodderly, if he's not gaming you said he could with something else, and now Im wondering what it could be. He doesn't seem to text the kids as much anymore, which is kinda odd. Maybe it's because he seems them more, but that never seemed to stop him before.
I'll quit my harping. I realize Im not acting rational now because when this man gets too close I start spewing. I guess I really need to figure out for ME what boundaries I want instead of trying to please everyone all the time. I feel like I have to be extra nice to the man and do what he wants just to get cooperation from him.
You need to sit down and figure out what boundaries that you need to set w/your h and stick to them. Yes, he thinks that it's okay to come and go and announce on a moment's notice when he can have the children. I would advise him that he needs to notify you at least 3 days in advance as to when he can have the children visit w/him because you and the children are not going to change your plans again for him on such late notice. Stick to the timeframe and do not waiver from it. If you do waiver, he will not only take an inch, but an entire mile.
What does the mlcer want? They want the lbs to be sitting at home waiting by the phone or their computer for messages, i.e., to be at their beck and call and not the other way around. Life doesn't work that way and we all have things to do and make plans to do them. The waiting until the last minute is actually a control issue and yes, it is PA.
Set your boundaries and stick to them!
Thanks snodderly! I appreciate that and it helps me get my feet on the ground. Your input is very valuable to me.
LOL....Guess Im not crazy after all, for myself and many others have felt that he still expects me to act as such. No life, just available whenever.
He threw me a big curve ball today. When I asked him if he was coming to D9's follow up in April (which is 4.5 hours away) he offered something I never would expect. Since it's just a check up he offered to stay back and watch D13 so she wouldn't have to miss school, or if the drive was making me too uncomfortable he would take D9 himself and I could stay home. And he said he'd leave it up to me, but either way he'd do his best to get that day off to help.
I didn't respond back yet. Im a little speechless.
Oh man, the "last minute" personality...! W is like that, I am Mr. Plan and 5 minutes early....I know how you feel.
I would tell him that the kids need as much consistancy as possible in our situation, they are having enough issues and that he needs to inform you and them as soon as he has his schedule, AND, you are going to make it a stipulation of the D agreement since you know when he gets his schedule. (Or something like that).
You have made me see that W and I still in the same house is a blessing, at least I don't have to deal with THAT BS on top of everything else...
Hang in there K!
Hey guys...
It is in our parenting plan about the schedule. If either of us fail to inform the other in a timely manner of plans or schedules, and it conflicts with plans made, than the other doesn't get the visitation time. It's just time I start waving the rule book out I guess. He never can remember anything anyway. So for example, say I had made big plans for tomorrow because I didn't know he had that day off, but he informed me the last minute...then too bad so sad, he doesn't get them overnight. However what we had planned won't cause conflict for the overnight with him.
Yes it really is a pain having to share the kids with someone that has their schedule change all the time. However I did tell him that our plans were made for tomorrow and I would let him know when we were home. I also told him I had already made plans in regards to getting D9 up to her MD appointment that's 4.5 hours away. No reply.
Ok I figured it out!
Cake eating = open relationship!
It just dawned on me that I have felt and still feel like my H wants an open relationship with me, and everything is to stay in it's place.
He's to live with OW and have an immaculate house, meals cooked for him, laundry done, a gaming partner, and to be sexually serviced any time he wants. The children are to go over and see him and accept this no questions asked. They're supposed to accept his girlfriend.
I am supposed to sit over here and wait for word from him whenever he remembers to tell me his schedule. The girls and I are supposed to be at his beck and call and be available to him whenever he wants. He also is to be included in every aspect of our lives and expects to still live as a family and be included in family type activities. His expectations are to be Super Parents together, and still have many of the things we did have in our 22 year relationship. He's just getting sexually satisfied somewhere else.
Oh, and we're all supposed to be ok with this too.
LMAO....Funny when reality will strike again.
I don't think so.
I may be completely off on this, but this thought just came to me this morning (in a more profound way).
Partly in trigger to what you say above, Kimmer...
Maybe it's been said before about MLC, but it is as though the person in MLC appears to have their empathy switched turned off. They are unable to understand and appreciate how the people around them might feel, regarding their behaviours.
It is not that they do not have sympathy.
They still have emotions. They still can feel bad for others who are in a bad situation. They can feel happy for someone who is happy. They can still feel anger when they sense some form of injustice. They just cannot "personalize" it (of other's emotions, to themselves).
It is "I feel bad for you" not "I know how bad that can feel" and they are personally (and unintentionally) distanced from the M and their spouse, as though it is not really their life and therefore not really their responsibility. In a way that they might see someone else going through a D and conclude how inappropriate it is for one spouse to take up an A, yet don't see their own A as bad. Or even more bizarre, they may personalize some injustice they feel someone else is having and champion for that person or cause, without request or permission from the involved parties.
Take for instance how it appears that your H appears by his actions to want the benefits of OW as well as continue to have the benefits he's decided he wants with you.
He further appears to be unable to empathize with you in how you might feel about being in an "open" marriage. It may appear he does not care about how you feel, but it may be more accurate to say he cannot empathize (put himself in your position and personally feel that you may not be OK with it).
I noticed this in my W quite clearly last friday when I was picking up my kids. There was a miscommunication about an event this coming weekend. I realized that I misunderstood what was being communicated to me. Once that was put on the table, my W was able to accept that I wasn't clear and HOW I could have been unclear, but she was really unable to appreciate how I felt about it. I could see it in her face, she just didn't "get it" (how I felt) and just could not integrate my feelings into the equation and therefore very visibly defaulted to the "it's his problem and his fault" mentality, even though she was careful about her words in verbalizing that.
I don't know if that makes sense to you or others reading this.
But that being the case, for example they don't appear to appreciate the value of making the clear distinction between choosing the intimacy with the OP over their spouse and taking care of the dissolution of the M.
That is how it feels to me with my W. She really seems to feel that because SHE does not want to be with me in an emotionally intimate way, it is UP TO ME to do the work to dissolve the M.
That MLC "selfishness" appears to move from:
lack of empathy = perception of selfishness by others (which MAY) = the appearance of (or real) confusion
Which leads to what appears to extend into what appears to be lack of responsibility by the MLCer, to take actions which would appear responsible in nature.
In a transition, I believe we don't loose our empathy.
I would suspect that even in mild MLC, there is some "disconnect" that shows up as what would be a loss of empathy.
It is not just us that the MLCer looses empathy for, it is that of our kids and even our friends, in the dynamics that created in the relationship. In the same way that they most certainly suggest that it is none of our concern or business, their relationship with an OP, yet do expect everyone else to embrace their new found love, even if it requires coercion or manipulation. ie. My W is manipulating the acceptance of our kid's towards OM and her supporters, by integrating them in the relationships to the extent of acknowledging the arrival and departures with these people in a positive way.
So if someone (non-MLC) makes a choice to be out of the relationship, they do empathize. They would "GET" the pain that their spouses may feel. They "GET" the pain that their kids might feel. They "GET" the discomfort and anger that those who appreciated and supported the R or M might have. They make what they feel is their best choice, and take sincere and genuine ownership and responsibility for that decision.
When their empathy button gets turned off... they really don't understand or "get" any of the above. They decide that the spouse should be responsible for the choice of the MLCer. The kids should be "ok" with the breakdown of their parents M. That everyone (not just their supporters) should support the dissolution of the M.
You know... like those fairytale divorces where everyone... the spouses, the kids, everyone who is familiar with the couple says... "yeah, they never got along and you could see how much the two of them really weren't compatible..."
When (most) everyone is saying how D is the right thing.... but one spouse seems to be holding on... then that would be a severe problem with the clinging spouse being unable to let go and see reality... an absolute and true co-dependent person...
OTOH, when people outside the M are surprised... even "shocked" that one spouse wants out of the M... well, that's probably an indicator that there is some emotional and personality turmoil in the spouse who wants out, if that spouse is not willing to acknowledge and accept the criticism and still own and accept the responsibility of the choice... ie. I do understand that it is a horrible situation, but I really do believe that it is an appropriate decision for me. I am sorry for any hard feelings this may cause for anyone.
The above is just a long way of saying:
Someone would be in MLC if the empathy switch existed in the MLCer in the first place, and was (mostly) turned on. If we can't remember a time when our spouses may have actually considered our thoughts and feelings and adjusted their viewpoint or didn't shame and blame us for those feelings that may have been contrary to theirs... then perhaps there is something deeper going on...
If you feel you are hitting a point where you have to make some tough decisions on your direction in life and consider the feelings of others and take the responsibility and proclaim that responsibility to the world... then you would not be in MLC...
Kaffe,
Your posting is spot on...
Someone would be in MLC if the empathy switch existed in the MLCer in the first place, and was (mostly) turned on. If we can't remember a time when our spouses may have actually considered our thoughts and feelings and adjusted their viewpoint or didn't shame and blame us for those feelings that may have been contrary to theirs... then perhaps there is something deeper going on...
Spot on. I think that's much of what takes many of us "by surprise" and makes it harder to get over the shock. One day they seem normal, and the next what you describe. Or as I described it once, it was like she had an emotional stroke
But very much, I think many of us can see some of our situations in your post, KD.
Kimmerz, I heard anger in your in post. Or read it rather... Be careful with that. Your anger is justified, but not helpful in long durations. In short bursts it is though. It really is.
Feel what you need to feel and recognize what it seems to me is a change in your ex. If you're like me, when the ex changes toward us, we find ourselves off-balance again. Until we detach enough that it no longer affects us that is.
AJ
Hey Kimmerz!
You are so good at writing out your feelings. I love to read your stuff, because it helps me 'get' my stuff. I must really be an emotional challange. I guess there is a reason I make quilts.... because my words aren't up to par!
I also really liked Kaffe's response. Very true and helps me see!
Aloha,
Wendy
Hey Guys,
Kaffe, wonderful post. I will read over and over again, such a great thing to ponder.
Yes Aj, I have alot of anger, I really do. But I allow myself to feel it and when I do that, I then understand why Im angry. When I understand why Im angry, then it starts to dissapate. All I can do is let it run it's course. For me I've spent many years stuffing my anger and frustration down, so when it comes out, it tends to be prolonged at times.
Yes Im like you, if there's a change, then Im off balance. Im usually such a balanced person in every aspect but this MLC/separation/divorce. When Im thrown off balance I become super defensive. The first thing in my mind : "I will never let this man hurt me again. He's hurting me again. He must stop."
As I process these thoughts and emotions, the basis of it all is me really wavering in my detatchment. For me, detatchment has come in phases, and has been 2 steps forward 3 steps back.
Hey Kimmerz, you are not alone in that dance. I dance to that tune as well. Been doing it a little longer perhaps, but same dance just the same.
It gets better and easier. Some of the things that help is to walk away from trying to understand that which is not understandable. Gives yourself time to process without hindrance. Then you come back and process some more. Rinse. Repeat.
You were together a long time, K. It'll take time and won't happen overnight. But keep at it and you'll find that you are closer today than you were yesterday
AJ
Hey guys,
As I said yesterday H and I were discussing yesterday arrangments in regards to getting D9 to MD appointment.
I later replied with what plans I had made with the kids for the special trip. We plan to drive half way, spend the night in a hotel, and enjoy some bigger city fun things. Then we're going to head the rest of the way in the morning, get the MD appointment taken care of, and then head back home.
I never got a response back from him yesterday, which I thought was odd given he was so chatty and of course texting at work away from OW. I think he makes a point to text away from OW alot.
And for the first time in almost a year have I seen this man appear just a little sad. He was just here and picked up the girls for their overnighter. He avoided eye contact until I told him to please let me know if D12 had any dizzy spells or feels sick for she just had two shots this afternoon.
I think I might have shook him up a bit. I let him know I will do this on my own and can do this without him. Im really wondering what his expectations were. The last time he got like this was about 3 months after he moved out. He was all worked up that he wasn't invited to his own daughters birthday party! I remember him asking what the plans were and when I told him I didn't know, his remark was " well was just wondering if I should take the day off. Guess it all depends if Im still invited or not. It doesn't matter Im working the morning that day anway".
Gee is it me, or was that a guilt trip or what? So what did I do at the time? Re assured him he was always invited to her b day party and then went on about details in regards to her birthday party that D12 had talked about but couldn't decide on. I also know that at that particular time I had finally reached a good stage of detatchment. I had read that when you actually start to cut the cord of that energy connection with someone, they sense it, and will then start in with ways to engage you again.
Well guess what? Today I have felt a sense of detatchment and calm that I haven't felt in months, and it feels SO GOOD.
Kaffe,
I read over your post again, and yes you are so spot on!
There truly is a difference between empathy and sympathy isn't there? It's very easy to see someone's situation and sympathize, but empathizing is a whole different ball of wax.
Honestly I don't recall him ever having alot of empathy for anyone. Sympathy, oh yes, but empathy, well not much.
A good example of what empathy could be what happened at work today. There was someone that was really having a hard time, that was overwhelmed but alot of changes in her life and was crying because it was bothering her so much. I TRULY could identify with her, given this has been my life for almost a year. As I listened to her, I started crying, because i literally could understand without a doubt the basic pain she was feeling.
Where as I see many people that appear to be in situations that are difficult, and I have sympathy for them, but I do NOT KNOW what it's really like to feel what they're feeling.
It's also possibly to have empathy for people even if you've never truly experienced whatever situation they're in, but understand the general feeling.
Perhaps H has sympathy and see's me as a single woman with a temporarily handicapped child that's working her ass off to support them and is starting to get tired. Maybe he realizes he played a big role in this, so he figures the least he could do is just step up to the plate, be cooperative and give me a little extra money.
You're right Kaffe, I don't think he's given any thought as to how I feel about this, and whether or not Im comfortable with how he acts in regards to how he interacts with me now. I think H has just done what he wants, and what the thinks is acceptable to HIM.
Geez rose colored glasses coming off here now....did he ever think about anyone but himself?
You know I had told my aunt a while back, that if I were in the position of being the WAS, it would have to be for such a strong reason that I knew it had to be done. And if I knew I was breaking H heart by doing this, dear lord would I have done things differently. Just as you stated Kaffe, taking responsibility and being accountable to friends and family when confronted about it.
H did appear that way, was telling everyone he had moved out right after he did. Guess he blew up on his mom about me and why he was leaving, and then everytime he saw someone in public that asked about me and the girls he would tell him he no longer lived here at the house. I know of a mutual friend that said to him " THINK ABOUT WHAT YOUR'RE DOING here, ok?" We had another mutual friend semi blast him at Xmas in the store. And of course when his aunt confronted him via face book he admitted he asked for a divorce and then unfriended his ENTIRE PATERNAL SIDE OF THE FAMILY. Now that hurt me, because his Dad's side of the family are such a rare type of good people you'll ever come across.
I thank you for this post Kaffe. It's helped me see things in such a broader perspective, put all the pieces together to one simple thought.
The ability to have empathy.
And I will thank God every day that I have this ability, for it's probably one of the greatest gifts anyone could posess.
I guess with the transition I feel Im going through, this is where I can feel some empathy towards H. I've briefly felt the huge emotions he seems overwhelmed with. It feels so intense that you get to the point you don't care YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING TO MAKE IT STOP. This is the point where you can be rational or irrational. I've been so overwhelmed lately with stress, yes I've thought about actually seeing if the kids could stay with H for a week or two. THEN I THOUGHT ABOUT MY CHILDREN AND HOW THIS WOULD BE VERY TRAUMATIC FOR THEM...being away from me so long. WE are a unit and will tolerate seperation for a short time, other than that we want to be together.
At that point, hands down, it was clear to me. Mamma needs to find other ways to take care of herself, without ditching her kids and it can be done! I don't have to run away and wallow in my own selfishness, I can find a way to thrive and not run away. yes I need to make more time for myself, but I do not have to ruin lives to do so.
Ps. You know that overwhelming feeling I was just saying....everyone can get by with a little help from their friend called MR. ANTI-DEPRESSANT!
I wonder if we could put it in dart guns and shoot the MLCers in the butt with it like wild game and see if it makes any difference?
I wonder if we could put it in dart guns and shoot the MLCers in the butt with it like wild game and see if it makes any difference?
I don't know, the ADs made W worse and deeper into MLC...since she is off the "major" one and only on a milder one, she is getting better at processing her "stuff", better at being a parent, etc...the "major" one numbed her to everything but herself...either zombie OR spewing angry alien (SAA - mode). But she was on a pretty heavy dose with no family involvement with prescriber (we all would have said that Mom is different, and not in a good way...)
Oh, and I will get back to you on your post n my sitch...i just want to put some quality brain time into it...been juggling too many things that past few days.
T^2
According to a lot of research, Empathy is chiefly a right brain activity. We all use both hemispheres, unless they are severed in some way, which is rare, but in some people there is strong left brain predominance, or they have trouble accessing all of the right brain functions.
This is all speculative, but interesting, as a defining trait of MLcers seems to be a real lack of empathy and understanding of the acute pain and hurt they are causing others. Even if they see it, the most they can manage is fairly weak sympathy.
Interesting Bea,
Do you suppose that MLCers could me more left brained?
HMMMMM. I wonder given the script they follow. Almost like a computer chip is installed to play the same program.
This is all speculative, ...
absolutely! And I do want to place the caveat here that none of what I posted has any scientific basis, whatsoever!
It is simply an interesting artefact that appears to happen in those whom are diagnosed with, or suspected of, MLC.
Kimmerz, although empathy is a right brain activity (and this is stated with my very limited knowledge of brain function) it would not necesarilly suggest that MLC is more primarily a "left brained" individual. If there was a sever between the hemispheres, most if not all right brain functions would be affected, as in what might occur in a head injury (by whatever means).
IF this were actually the case, then it is just as likely to be some (temporary) chemical imbalance (rather than neurological) as the "condition" does appear to correct itself over time (at least in many observable cases).
What I suspect might be interesting to know is how many of these suggested observations are a condition of defence.
IOW, while it may appear that the empathy switch is turned off... it might be more accurate to say "the switch is broken" or "the switch has a faulty or overly sensitive breaker".
People with MLC might be observed to have (slight, moderate or more) empathy for many, but appear to break the circuit with those they have the most emotional connection to.
So for example, with the spouse or children or those close to the nuclear family whom are sensitive to the situation, and the MLCer does not want to cause emotional pain to, the switch turns off when emotionally related topics come up.
ie. With the example of my W an the miscommunication I used as an example above, it appeared that my W TRIED to empathize and it was as though I was able to visually see what was becoming immense emotional discomfort and so the switch "broke" and she defaulted to shame and blame, unable to receive and process the results that the empathy centre would have returned to her.
So in your metaphor Kimmerz, it COULD be like some default CMOS chip that, when the breaker flips, the return code of -1 is returned and the brain simply follows a low level, default instruction. A hard coded, defence instruction.
The brain is an amazing organ which is crazy how self protective it is of itself and loyal in the same way to it's host...
So just to add to that, quick:
This switch may already be overly sensitive in those whom are prone to MLC. As is often indicated, people in MLC have some prior trauma in their life which may be real... or may actually be perceived (and unconscious) trauma from their past...
Which could lead to why there seems to be many similarities between the WAS and the MLCer, with the difference appearing to be primarily their inability to empathize and therefore their inability to take responsibility...
*shrug*