Still slogging through the muck. Been awhile since I've posted in MLC.
Feel like I'm carrying way too much of a load with no end in sight.
H. is H. I don't know what to call him anymore. H. STBX, the X.
I don't know if I should wear my rings, have them redesigned into a tombstone shaped pendant or give them back to him.
I guess it doesn't really matter these days. Whatever I choose to do it's going to be the wrong thing. I am in a no win situation where my M is concerned.
H. said once this weekend he doesn't want me to hurt. All I could do was laugh soundlessly and mirthlessly on the other end of the phone.
I have more than enough work, I have my kids, I'm busy enough I fall asleep almost instantly, but still wake up every night at 3AM.
SC,
First, don't give the rings back. They are worth money. I do like the tombstone redesign idea, though. How about a Pentagram?
Waking up at 3 a.m. Been there, done that,wait . . . still doing it. It becomes a physical habit.
You sound as if you are in a period of doze. Life goes on, although you don't feel you have one.
Hang in there SC. Time passes and circumstances change. No situation is permanent, apparently even a marriage in our cases. We will get through helping each other out.
((HUGS))
SC,
You sound as if you are in a period of doze. Life goes on, although you don't feel you have one.
Not so much doze as feeling frozen/paralysed.
Thanks for the hugs.
I am losing heart and hope where my R. is concerned.
I have no interest in walking through life alone without companionship, the love between two people that choose to love one another or without sex.
I'm tired of my situation maritally speaking.
I have a life, family and friends. I have kids to care for and raise. I have more than one job. I have activities I do regularly. I fall into bed tired every night. I look good, I'm healthy. I'm getting emotionally healthy and developing more emotional maturity.
It still feels all wrong.
It still feels all wrong.
I know exactly how you feel.
I'm sorry that you are losing hope....
Thanks for the advice you have given me.
Tad
It still feels all wrong.
Because it is. This isn't what you signed up for right?
There are so many other people out there who can make you happy.
Roll the dice.
Or
Figure out this one out first.
Then
You won't be gambling on what you might know
Or what you hope someone will bring you
Or will this one work?
There is something to be said for being alone with you and enjoying it.
If you can't, why would someone else?
I am all for moving forward
BUT
Not out of weakness
Or lack
Or desire or want.
When is it time?
Only you can answer that
Just make sure it is for the righ reasons.
I like what Jack said to me once:
Find your own answers
They will have great credibility coming from you.
Because it is. This isn't what you signed up for right?
There are so many other people out there who can make you happy.
No it's not. I didn't sign up for all the responsibility of raising our kids with no partner. I didn't sign up for a run away as a husband.
Make me happy? Hardly. No one has that power, someone new can certaintly add to the richness and sharing of pleasures in life.
Figure out this one out first.
Figure out what?
That I was in a co-dependant relationship? That I was a people pleaser and a caretaker? That I was damaged and used to a high level of neglect until it became unbearable and I lashed out in pain from rejection that happened over and over, until the coupe de gras?
That I married somone that couldn't give me what I needed because of his addictive behaviour? That H. can't communicate his feelings? That he checked out emotionally on me the day I had my first child? That his damage is much worse than mine?
I think I have figured out a lot. So?
There is something to be said for being alone with you and enjoying it.
I do not mind my own company, the quiet is nice the ability to read uninterrupted is a luxury I seldom get to enjoy among several pleasures I have indulged myself in since H. has been gone.
I have done alone way too much in my life alone and I have no desire to continue on that way.
I am tired of carrying the load alone. I feel like Atlas.
Make me happy? Hardly. No one has that power, someone new can certaintly add to the richness and sharing of pleasures in life.
Figure out what?
That I was in a co-dependant relationship?
Good you figured that out.
That I was damaged and used to a high level of neglect until it became unbearable and I lashed out in pain from rejection that happened over and over, until the coupe de gras?
Victim.
I do not mind my own company, the quiet is nice the ability to read uninterrupted is a luxury I seldom get to enjoy among several pleasures I have indulged myself in since H. has been gone.
Survivor.
I am tired of carrying the load alone. I feel like Atlas.
This is your block to becoming...
A THRIVOR
You focusing what you don't have.
What do YOU have?
Atlas?
Did he know his burden?
Or just accept it and move on?
I didn't sign up for all the responsibility of raising our kids with no partner.
Another way to look at this is you will have all the memories and time shared with them.
I know how tough it can be. You said you like to read, do you write? I ask b/c I found that it was a really great outlet for me.
HUGS
Scylla,
Please don't take this wrong, and not to sound like our mothers, but who told you life was fair? It's not fair. It's hard, hateful, dirty and mean. It's also joyful, loving, beautiful and honest. It is what you make of it.
I believe that this hell also will pass.
[quote]
I do not mind my own company, the quiet is nice the ability to read uninterrupted is a luxury I seldom get to enjoy among several pleasures I have indulged myself in since H. has been gone.
I have done alone way too much in my life alone and I have no desire to continue on that way.
Do you see a bit of conflict in this statement? You do but you don't; you will but you won't.
You are confused. We all are. You are hurt and angry. Ditto. I'm so happy you come to the Board to let it out. But one of you has to be the adult/parent in this situation, and H has apparently checked out. We don't have to like it, we just have to do it.
Have faith, SC, peace will come.
I have my children.
Materially I have enough to get by.
Physically I'm in good health, decent shape and pretty tough for the most part.
Mentally I'm smart enough. Mentally tough...not so much.
Emotionally I'm far from well/or mature.
Socially, I have a few good friends and a small support network. I have jobs/work. I have hobbies and interests.
As for Atlas, he could never set his burden down or walk away from it.
I stopped journalling a long time ago. I don't like putting my thoughts down anywhere they can be found and I find my own writing boring and repetitious.
I only write for business purposes, or here.
Scylla,
Please don't take this wrong, and not to sound like our mothers, but who told you life was fair? It's not fair. It's hard, hateful, dirty and mean.
This is mostly my experience and how I see things.
It's also joyful, loving, beautiful and honest. It is what you make of it.
Not much of this.
I do not mind my own company, the quiet is nice the ability to read uninterrupted is a luxury I seldom get to enjoy among several pleasures I have indulged myself in since H. has been gone.
I have done alone way too much in my life alone and I have no desire to continue on that way.
Do you see a bit of conflict in this statement? You do but you don't; you will but you won't.
To me there is no conflict. I don't mind my own company, it's not the way I want to spend the majority of my time though and that's how it is right now. There is not a lot of interaction in my life, mostly due to circumstances of survival. I can do alone, doesn't mean I want to.
You are confused. We all are. You are hurt and angry. Ditto. I'm so happy you come to the Board to let it out. But one of you has to be the adult/parent in this situation, and H has apparently checked out. We don't have to like it, we just have to do it.
Not so much confused anymore. Just exhausted and had enough. I know what being the "responsible adult" looks like, I've had that role since I was little and I know what you've stated all too well. Perhaps that's why it gets to me. It's just more of the same damn thing. An unrelenting grind.
Have faith, SC, peace will come.
I never had much faith. My own experience and observations have shown me that having faith only results in more disappointment.
Scylla,
Faith is what gets us up in the mornings and sends us off to work. Faith is why we have children. Faith is why we fall in love and get married. Faith is why we buy a home or plant a seed. It doesn't always work out. Sometimes it feels like it never works out, but that's not true. You are in a very dark place right now, but it will pass, I promise. Otherwise, you need to brick up your doors and windows and call it a life.
I have come to appreciate so many blessings in my life that I mostly took for granted while with H. The best friends anyone could ever ask for. Children who love and support me no matter what. Appreciation for good work from my employers. While I was with H, that was my focus, my MAIN focus, and look where it got me.
Know what I'm doing tonight? I'm changing a sink disposer. Never done it before, but have no doubt at all that I can. Tomorrow I'm going to chainsaw down some trees. (If no one hears from me within 24 hours, please dial 911. LOL)You've been handed a huge challenge. It is up to you what you do with and make of it.
I have FAITH in you.
Bad things happen late at night.
Can't sleep, in physical pain.
Can't sleep, in emotional turmoil about some revelations in regard to H. and some other stuff going on in life too.
Hate this.
Feel helpless, trapped, hopeless, and an urge to self destruct. Not that I will, I just want out of this fresh hell.
SC,
Hang in there Scylla, no one is worth taking your life for. Your kids need you. I promise this will get better if you let it.
Keep working on detaching. Your mind can be your own worst enemy. Get it off your H and put it back where it belongs, on you and your children.
Oh I won't, I know what's driving me.
I'm just so tired of hurting. Wave after wave of pain. So tired, yet can't sleep, or feel anything but pain or a low level malaise.
Scylla,
Have you considered anit depressants?
scylla,
for me its the morning
it's so hard to get out of bed, and i look at my son, sleeping next to me and hate to wake him, because i know he is in peace..
but, we both get up
i tickle him or tell him a joke
get dressed
i take him to school
i go to work (where for the most part i feel like me)
and life goes on
and as i chose to let go, the pain lessens
and when i see my child have a good day, i do as well
you will get there
one foot in front of the other
Grace I have been on antidepressants and yeah I have considered taking them again, the side effects deter me.
As I said I know why I think like that and what the driver is, that helps to defuse it some.
I won't deny though I feel these things. Better to let it out than leave it inside to fester and grow.
Maybe I'm crazy. I said something to a friend today that sort of was something I'm thinking is true, and perhaps it is time for me to call it quits on our marriage from my end.
I think I get it now. From H's perspective we/I are not worth his energy or time to pay attention to and if we are, it's only on his terms.
He chooses other pursuits, distractions and/or addictive behaviour over his children and over me.
I don't know that he has the will or desire to change this behaviour. After this long a separation it appears not.
It's pretty sad to realise we were and still are worth so little in his eyes.
Scylla,
I understand everything your are saying, but I believe you are Speaking from a state of anger. We've all been there; multiple times. Been to it's major attraction, Disgust.
If I've learned anything over the past year, it's that the things the MLC'r most blames you for, is the only way he has of blaming himself. I don't know if I said that well. It's childish, it's inexcusable, it's tawdry at best. I keep reminding myself that someone has to be the adult in this situation, and it appears to be my job.
All this to say, don't let anger be your motivation in any movement on your part. It's not the best move for you if you are not thinking clearly.
Yes, it's sad that they choose selfish pursuits over their families, but they are the ones who will pay the price for that. Don't give him the excuse, but SHE D'd me.
I understand you believe I'm speaking out of anger. Really I'm not. I am speaking out of a deeply sad sense of acceptance.
In a way, I'm no longer afraid of Divorce. Why should I be?
Yes it will change my finanical sitatuion for the worse. Yes it means I will be a full time parent on my own with no relief or help (been that way for a long time now).
He doesn't love me...fine.
He doesn't wish to be with me...fine.
He cannot or will not accept me for the person I truly am...fine, not everyone can or will.
He can't and won't choose to love me or do the best thing for our family...fine.
He won't address his own issues...fine.
It all hurts but...fine.
I can't make him do any of those things.
I also cannot be held to this marriage by a misplaced sense of loyalty any longer, a loyalty that is not reciprocal. A loyalty that's undeserved. A loyalty I use against myself to keep me tied to a man who really can not or will not choose love.
If he wants to point the finger at me for allowing the Divorce to become a fact...so what? I was blamed for the demise of our marriage from the get go. Him pointing the finger at me would just be more of the same.
From his perspecitve it's all my fault anyway, no matter what I did or did not do, or do or do not do.
I cannot change his mind. I can not make him see. I can not make him feel.
Update- The weekend.
H. had kids from ate Thursday afternnon to Sunday afternoon.
He had arranged a meeting with me and our kids for Saturday morning discussing some things behaviourally and strategies to deal with that from the school pyschologist. It lasted about an hour.
I did my own thing otherwise and was very busy, and out most of the weekend with friends and family except for Saturday night when I took the opportunity for "me" beauty care.
Late Sunday afternoon he dropped them off.
Couple of interesting developments.
He did not accept or even acknowledge my brunch invitation for Sunday morning, and I did not mention or ask him about it and simply carried on and made alternate arrangements.
He didn't knock or ring the bell this time and simply walked in after the kids on Sunday afternoon.
He came in on his own and sat beside me on the sofa.
<raise eyebrows in mild suprise here>
He invited himself over for next Saturday.
<and here>
Venting -
Last time H. was here dropping off the kids, I had this weird sensation. It was like I was looking at him with new eyes, and wondered who the heck he was and what the heck did I ever see in him. If I had passed him on the street, I wouldn't have looked twice at him.
That awareness/feeling has not left.
In addition, I know now, I want more than what I had in what was our M. Way more. I won't ever be last on the priority list again, and I won't put myself last on my own list anymore either.
Fat lot of good it did to deny my own needs/wants in lieu of everyone else's, especially H's.
I could be deathly ill and needing help, and he had no empathy for me, he really never has. If I hurt, it barely rated his attention.
I want someone that's absolutely nuts about me, a protector, ally, a lover and friend.
H.gave his best to everyone but our family, we got the dregs.
I deserve better treatment than what I'm got and what I'm getting.
I'm coming to realise, I determine that.
Ditto, Scylla, Ditto. But you are riding a high on the coaster that comes just before another big dip. Just be prepared, and perhaps you won't drop so far the next time. As time passes, those drops become less and less heart pounding.
Ditto, Scylla, Ditto. But you are riding a high on the coaster that comes just before another big dip. Just be prepared, and perhaps you won't drop so far the next time. As time passes, those drops become less and less heart pounding.
Actually I'm not feeling "high" on the coaster as you put it. In the past I did feel good and empowered.
I don't feel good about this. Just a sense of really knowing what I want/need and a coldness inside.
Update -Venting - Journaling
The feelings continue. I'm seriously now considering filing for Divorce on my own.
I'm tired of the B.S., loneliness and carrying the bag.
We have no relationship worth nurturing. He's my kids' Dad and it appears as far as he's concerned I'm just their Mother and any thing of significance that led to us occupying those roles is dead, buried and he's busy piling on more dirt over the grave.
This morning at 6AM H. texted me to inform me he transferred C.S money, but the joint account he has access to was in overdraft by a significant amount.
I interpret his lack of commentary and or anything else that it's my problem. Too bad Xwife, suck it up.
Friend observed how he interacts with me. Keeps his distance, essentially ignores me, doesn't wait up for me, doesn't walk with me. I'm alone even if he's nearby. It's that obvious.
Scylla,
As someone in a poster in the 70's once said, "when you reach the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on." Remember the kitten on the poster?
Okay. I go to court for the big D this Wednesday. It's a rainy, lonely Sunday, so I was surfing on the Internet, found my old Journal that I hadn't thought of in a long while. Goes back to last April. Reading where I was, what I thought, prayed for, wished for . . there are no words. My reason for telling you this is, Don't do anything rash, especially if there is any sort of expectation that he will respond to it positively. Give yourself 48 hours and see how you feel then. Protect yourself, by all means, just don't leap before you look.
I'm not planning on doing anything rash or expecting any positive result from this, or my or my kids' agony to end either.
No decision is yet made, I'm still hesitant but I'm oh so very tired of this situation as it stands. I'm tired of H. looking at me as if I'm some bug that crawled out of the flour he was about to bake cookies with and treating me with the same disdain and lack of concern.
I have consulted with a lawyer and informed myself.
I know I can't afford to divorce, using a laywer I know I'll lose my butt financially.
Emotionally I can't afford not to divorce either no matter how much additional stress it puts on me in filing the documents myself. H.'s rejection of me as a person is complete in my estimation. If we did not have children, he'd be long gone and I'd not see him for dust.
Why stick by a man who acted like a rank coward and who continues to run and will not address his own wounds, pain, addictions and dysfunction?
A man who dumped more responsibility in my lap and doesn't give a flying rip about what it's doing to our kids or anyone connected to us.
As for me, now when I'm with him in any situation I feel dead inside when I look at him or I wonder who the hell he really is and was everything we built an illusion/lie and I hurt.
I'm not asking for solutions here. I'm just telling how I feel.
I don't think there are any solutions to that. After this long a separation I don't expect a miracle or a change of heart on his part and mine, well mine is becoming stone.
Scylla,
I don't know how it works in Canada, but here, the person that files first is usually the person who gets to pay for the divorce. If you feel that is what he is wanting you to do, then by all means don't. Even if you have to build a psychological wall between you and him.
Easier said than done, I know, but, pretend he just isn't there, in body as well as mind. ((Hugs))
If I file all the documents myself it's pretty cheap. We have already met the requirements for an uncontested divorce, with H. being gone for well over a year.
Journaling
Looked into summer camps for the kids. One kids fees are going to eat up my earnings from my new job. I know H. is unaware of the bind this will put me/us/the kids in.
Eldest child spoke up in the car today. He's very frustrated with H. for not returning home. We had a short discussion and I encouraged my child to speak to H. The kid feels that his Dad is vulnerable and if he speaks he will hurt his Dad's feelings.
I told him that he is responsible for only his own feelings and his Dad as a grown man is responsible for his own feelings as well.
I told him his relationship with his Dad is separate from my relationship with him, and it's up to him to speak his mind or hurt himself.
God this is hard.
Journaling-
Feeling kind of odd today. I'd use the word detached, I think it's stronger than that.
I feel whatever happens I'll be better than ok. Stronger, focused, in control and with those feelings go a "I don't give a rip" about H.'s reaction to whatever I do or say..,at least for now.
I refuse to walk on eggshells anymore.
I wish he could find his "happy", heal his own damage and garbage in his life. Fact is he won't. He's content to merely exist.
I'm not content the way things are. I want more, and I'm finding my happy, with or without him.
Today I'm feeling that I'm done.
I'm working on me, I'm making a decent life for myself without him.
The kids are coping reasonably well and know Mum has their best interests at heart, and will not leave them.
I am feeling I have done all the DBing I can reasonably do.
He's not coming back. I don't want him back as his is now and he's made it clear he is unwilling to make any move to grow and change...as I am the one at fault. He's the victim.
Today I tried sending a mildly complimentary/flirty text...no response and I know for a fact he read it. Oh well.
There are lots of people out there that would like my attention and my compliments.
Time to put my energy elsewhere I figure.
Today I tried sending a mildly complimentary/flirty text
Today I'm feeling that I'm done.
Huh?
I am not trying to be a smart ass, but these two things do not compute.
I know I have mentioned this before SC, but what is holding you back from living life for you now?
I also remember you saying you would like companionship, and you cannot do that while your still M. But is that what you need right NOW?
You can decide to firmly close and lock the door at any time.
Do you need to do this to move on and let go?
I know for a fact he read it
How?
There are lots of people out there that would like my attention and my compliments.
Are you one of them? It would be a good start.
There are lots of people out there that would like my attention and my compliments.
Are you one of them? It would be a good start.
<standing up clapping> YES!!!!!
PEI
Huh?
I am not trying to be a smart ass, but these two things do not compute.
Well of course it doesn't compute because of the way I wrote it in non sequential order. LOL The text came first...the feeling afterward.
It's just more of the same from H. avoid, deflect, ignore.
(sigh)
I know I have mentioned this before SC, but what is holding you back from living life for you now?
I also remember you saying you would like companionship, and you cannot do that while your still M. But is that what you need right NOW?
You can decide to firmly close and lock the door at any time.
Do you need to do this to move on and let go?
I can document again all the changes I've made in my life and what I'm doing for me, but I think at this point no one really gives a crap about that but me.
Yes I think I need to divorce H. to move on and let go and live my life freely, without feeling I'm cheating on him, or betraying my own values in that area. I meant my marriage vows but my marriage is broken. Perhaps it's fixable, but I can't do the heavy lifting any more. After this long, I'm tired so, so very tired.
Oh well nothing I can do about that. A marriage is about two people caring about one another...and he doesn't.
How do I know he read the message? Well messenger has a D function which means the message was delivered but not read, and a R function which means it was seen and read. My message had a little R beside it. That's how I know.
Are you one of them? It would be a good start.
Yes I am one of them. Every day I read affirmations out loud to myself in the mirror. I'm freakin' awesome.
I feed my soul as best I can for myself by myself.
SC, I guess I have just seen you go in circles with this for so long now. You’re done, you’re not, you’re done, you’re not.
I also feel like I still since anger in your posts.
My point, and take it for what it’s worth, is that I believe, when you are truly done, all the anger will be gone. Because at that point, what is there left to be angry about?
I guess I just don’t buy the fact that you can send your H a flirty text and “be done” in the SAME DAY.
I wish it was that easy….
Yes I have been going in circles with this. Hope is a funny thing. If you have hope you keep trying, even if the odds are long. If you've got the personality of a Jack Russel terrier you hang on even if you feel your teeth are going to be pulled out.
So you see anger. I call it resignation to the inevitable. This little epidsode today (still trying to DB by doing something different than what I have in the past) showed me just how done he is.
I held out hope for a reconciliation for a long time. Guess that makes me stupid in your eyes. Oh well. I gave it everything I had and more.
It's time to face the music, write a new will and living will and get this separation/divorce completed legally.
He will not even try. He's still running, dodging, weaving and avoiding. He gave conflicting signals during all this time, but I think today was confirmation to me that my interpretation of his actions wasn't about conflict for him, but for myself.
I deserve way better treatment, love and affection and so do our kids.
Perhaps I can find someone that is willing to serve as a better male role model/father than what they have in him, their love for him notwithstanding.
The really funny/ironic thing is I think I have a number of counselling sessions left.
Guess that makes me stupid in your eyes.
Sorry you took it that way, not my intent AT ALL.
I just still see you on the roller coaster.
Your emotions tied to what your H does or doesn't do.
If it is truly time for you to pull the plug and pursue D, no one will think less of you. We all have our breaking point.
Just curious, what will you take from all of this? Who were you before? Who are you now?
Guess that makes me stupid in your eyes.
Sorry you took it that way, not my intent AT ALL.
I understand that may not have been your intent. It is my interpretation given the comment about going in circles. This isn't an easy process to go through and yes I waffle, but each day I seem to be getting closer to saying to h3ll with it. Even considering how much as I love and still care for H. I just still see you on the roller coaster.
Your emotions tied to what your H does or doesn't do.
Perhaps I am to some degree, some days are better than others.If it is truly time for you to pull the plug and pursue D, no one will think less of you. We all have our breaking point.
I think the problem is "I" will think/feel less of me. Which may be is what's giving me so much trouble in letting go and walking away.Just curious, what will you take from all of this? Who were you before? Who are you now?
I was a driven, emotionally volatile, loud, severely anxious, people pleaser, perfectionist who thought mainly in black and white.
I am now a calm, thoughtful, relaxed individual (most of the time) who's learning people pleasing and perfectionism adds to my stress and anxiety and was making me physically ill. I don't have to "fix" things/people or their problems, and my value should not be vested in what I can do or how I perform for others. I now more easily see shades of grey. Of course I'm far from perfect and I backslide on occasion.
Journaling -
Mrs. Doubtfire was on TV and the kids were watching it. I could not sit through it, hits to close to home even though no one was a walk away in that story.
There is so much emotional and physical distance between H. and I,(and not just from his end of the equation), I'm no longer sure it can be bridged. As a WAS/MLC'er he doesn't want to work on "us" and he's done next to nothing to work on his own issues because he's alright and I'm the one that's messed up.
So...
I have some empathy for H. but I no longer feel about him the way I used to. On some levels I feel used.
I'm still grieving for myself and the kids and feeling the loss of so many things.
I realised this week my H. has been telling me for most of our marriage what he thought I wanted to hear, or said nothing at all. Probably for the last twenty years and after the intoxication of new love wore off.
That's the unspoken bargain he made with his parents as a child: I will say anything and do what you want if you stop hurting me and love me. It's a bargain he transferred to me.
H never really trusted me enough to tell me the truth about his innermost needs, wants, hopes, dreams or desires. He viewed me as a dangerous person and potential persecutor to trust with those.
That's a loss, because I believed our marriage was based on honesty and trust as well as love.
As for me my unspoken bargain was: I will do anything, I will anticipate all your needs/wants/desires, be anything you need me to be if you love me.
In doing that I lost me and stopped developing a personality of my own, becoming whatever the adults or people in authority in my life required. I transferred that unspoken bargain to H. and, just like my parents, I could never live up to their expectations. It wasn't enough, good enough...I wasn't good enough ( because he couldn't/wouldn't tell me the truth ) and I ended up betraying myself.
Another loss to grieve.
Now I'm starting over. Things that I believed were solid truths to base a life on and the things I thought were true about me, about others and the relationships I have with others is based on lies.
I've been spoonfed a lot of lies. Now I'm identifying them and foundation of my life has been ripped out from under my house of sense of self.
I am now figuring out what it is I want and need, and just plain reexamining my whole life, value system and relationships.
I'm not sure H. will be the one to stand beside me in the future.
Journaling
Feel really frustrated, caught in a swirling vortex I can't beg, claw, or force my way out of.
Nothing much seems to change in my R, except it's still swirling the drain. I guess I'm just waiting for the bath water to run out.
Not much I can personally do about my situation but endure or get over the fear, get angry and start filling out divorce papers myself. Either way I lose. Neatly trapped.
I am so tired and empty. Tired of having my needs unmet. Tired of having a husband that's part of my children's lives but not mine. Tired of being alone and responsible for figuring out what to do and doing it. Tired of being lonely, no matter how I try to GAL, work on my own garbage, and keep my head above water financially.
I am numb where H. is concerned. Truth I don't want to feel anything. Not joy, not pain, not empty.
I am right there with you!!! It must be in the air!!
(((HUGS))
Scylla,
We all have those days. Days of despair, anger, remorse, all the bad emotions. But they are your emotions, so it is healthy to let them out, I believe.
You said some powerful things on May 14th. I read and have pondered them. Most of them are emotions I recognize and empathize with completely. But the very telling of them, of being able to recognize and verbalize those deep feelings is a sign of your own inner strength. Whether or not your H returns, you will come out of this interlude of your life SHINING.
Or, in American terms "Some days you feel like a nut, some days you don't" LOL
((HUGS)) Scylla
Thanks Punkin.
I'm just slogging through it all best I can, even if the muskeg pulls and sucXs off my rubberboots doing it. ;-)
Journalling-
Not much going on. H. met the kids and me to buy new clothing for the kids and for lunch. He was thrilled with the bargains. We had a pleasant time. We arguedmildly about payment for the stuff. He was quick to whip out the credit card. I wrote him a cheque for half. He's still as distant as ever.
I'm still in no woman's land. Emotionally used up, running on fumes and not caring much about what he does or does not do anymore. I just roll with it, take care of my end of things and keep doing the work on me for me.
I know I'll be ok if nothing else.
I'm not waiting anymore for him to make up his mind about us. There is no us and hasn't been for a while. Two solitudes.
I think I've resolved an inner conflict I've been having about "dating".
That piece of paper called our marriage license only has the weight I give it. I've accepted I love my H. and probably always will, but he doesn't want or love me anymore. Someone else can though, and I'm open to that possibility.
I've forgiven him for his actions in my head, my heart still grieves. That's ok, eventually it'll go away.
Scylla your post on 5/14 where you talk about the faults on both sides (bargains as you put them) sound exactly like me and my XH. I am divorced since January and eventually broke ties with my XH other than anything completely necessary and that's done through an intermediary. I have to say that the break has given me a lot of time to get more comfortable and happy with myself, and I no longer think much about "my needs not being met" as really it's the ROMANTIC needs that aren't only. All my other needs are met through family and friends and my own efforts.
Far be it for me to encourage anyone to get divorced, but I think in some cases it's the only way that we end up really getting in the place where we can become comfortable alone. So it's maybe a silver lining.
You mention dating--and that's about where I am right now too, because while I know that I do not want my XH back in terms of who he has become (and he has zero interest in that anyway as he is completely in love with the OW), I have this weird sort of feeling that I can't date or I won't be "true" to him, or I can't date because there will not be "anyone else in the world" who will work in a relationship with me. This comes from having only XH for 23 years and that started when I was 19.
So my psychiatrist says the only way I'm going to truly break from pining over the MEMORY of XH is to meet some new people, and so I signed up for eharmony. Then I did nothing. I see the matches, and I just don't initiate anything. It was important to me to see that there are other decent men out there, and I have now, but honestly, I'm not able to pursue anything...yet.
I think if you're saying that you really want to see if someone is out there who can treat you and your children better, that SOUNDS like you are looking to replace him. That's not a reason to find someone new. I think the only way any of us have a good relationship with a new person is if we are totally ok NOT being with someone. And my own hesitancy at making that first connection with someone online is probably coming from the fact that I'm NOT 100% comfortable living without a mate yet. I'm close, but not yet there.
Sorry to go on but I saw a lot of similarities between us. I think you sound frustrated and exhausted and the best thing to do in that case is to take a break from all of this. Maybe that way is to detach more? Maybe you have to get a divorce? I don't know. But you sound like the treading water is really getting to you and if so, you probably have to shake things up for yourself a bit so you can get moving forward. (((HUGS)))
I think if you're saying that you really want to see if someone is out there who can treat you and your children better, that SOUNDS like you are looking to replace him. That's not a reason to find someone new. I think the only way any of us have a good relationship with a new person is if we are totally ok NOT being with someone. And my own hesitancy at making that first connection with someone online is probably coming from the fact that I'm NOT 100% comfortable living without a mate yet. I'm close, but not yet there.
Sorry to go on but I saw a lot of similarities between us. I think you sound frustrated and exhausted and the best thing to do in that case is to take a break from all of this. Maybe that way is to detach more? Maybe you have to get a divorce? I don't know. But you sound like the treading water is really getting to you and if so, you probably have to shake things up for yourself a bit so you can get moving forward. (((HUGS)))
Hi Antonia,
No not really looking to replace him. Besides you know as well as I do you've got to kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince. I've just decided to be open to the possibility of actually meeting a prince.
I know the problems inherent in any new relationship beyong going out and doing things together, I'm not eager to run that gauntlet any time soon.
Yes I am frustrated and exhausted.
I'm sticking to my guns here and it's hard going, I will not lie.
He wants this divorce he is going to have to do all the work to get it.
I'm so done being the decision maker, the active one, the mover the shaker, the go to person, the one that makes sure all the i's are dotted and the t's crossed. No more.
If he can't make up his mind, then I will live as if...as if I'm divorced, as if I am single and available.
( Although with kids how available can you be?
)
Had an interesting phone conversation with H.
He called last night to say goodnight to the kids as is his habit.
He asked me how my day was, I said it was ok. Had a lot to do, and we'd just gotten home. I asked him how he was and how his day was and he said same sh** different day and he was tired.
Well I've been hearing the words, "I'm tired" as a response to " How are you? , for the last 13 years or so and my usual response was to try to appease him, or in he last several years just ignore it because his feeling and what he said didn't vary.
I finally realised that it scrapes a really sore spot in me and why.In short it triggers feelings of : worthlessness and powerlessness in me, and it carries with it blame and a need to 'fix' it for H.
So, I told H. it really annoys me when he says that. H responded that he would just not say anything anymore. I said it's not that I don't wish him to tell me what he's feeling, and I outlined how I feel when he says those words.
I suggested that something alternative may be better as those words also disempower him. Seeing as he was there watching Dr. Wayne Dyer with me at one point and hearing how Dr. Dyer had eliminated those words from his vocabulary and his life as an excuse not to do things, perhaps it would be a good idea.
He agreed. In the end we came up with a postive message instead of " I'm tired".
The positive message: " I had a productive day."
At least he's willing to work on some of the little things.
New development.
H came to pick up the kids. Asked what we had planned for the weekend (the kids are with me for that). I said we have no real plans. He invited us out for brunch. Granted it's his B/day.
Hmmmmmmm.
I said, "I have your gift here, I didn't know if we'd see you or not, so I had it prepared." He said."Keep it until brunch on my B'day."
That was really good up there--the "I'm tired" response IS SO ANNOYING!!
For ALL the reasons you spelled out!
And how annoying that we jump to "fix that".lol. We're part of the ongoing problem!!
And then your H listened to you and you were able to point out the benefits of saying something else.
Good stuff!! I'm practically divorced but you know what? I am going to use this anyway.lol. With a LOT MORE PEOPLE than my H!!
"wonder if it is useful for teenagers who complain constantly of being bored....lol"
Thanks for the feedback LauraOh.
Nice to know I provided you with some useful ammo LOL.
As for the teens, if they say they're bored around me, I've said: " So what are you planning to do about it? If you like I always have some chores you can help me with. "
They usually find something else to do quickly.
Update -Journaling
So I went for brunch with our kids. Met up in city centre at the restaurant. Wished him a Happy B'day and kissed him on the cheek. He didn't pull away and kissed me back.
Brunch went very well. Brought the gifts from the kids, my sister and me. Mentioned that I considered calling him and asking if he wanted me to drop the kids off for his B'day. (We had had an argument and he had gotten quite angry.) He told me the invitation was for me as well and he was glad I was there.
After Brunch he asked if I would like to go to a little market with him for a time just up the street. I agreed to meet him there and we did a little shopping. He bought me cookies along with some treats for the kids. I wished him a Happy B'day as we parted in the parking lot and kissed his cheek again and he reciprocated.
Interesting to say the least.
Journaling
Our kids are with their Dad this weekend. I've been keeping busy, GAL. Doesn't seem to matter much though, my R with my H is ever present in the back of my mind like some large black spider in the dark corner.
I dreamt of him this morning. In it I was upset and telling of my upset and he was totally non responsive to my pain and busy showing me how great his life is without me and our kids. Showing me the projects he's done and taken on, while I just stood there and had to nod my head at how wonderful it all was.
Lousy way to start the day.
I wish my feelings for my H. were dead. I'd rather feel nothing where he is concerned.
I don't even want to remember happy times with him, or remember his role in our children's births.
I want a mind wipe of all those memories where he is involved.
cylla,
Sounds like you had a good brunch with your H on his b-day.
I am sure that made some warm fuzy feelings come popping up.
Then this last night, you had a bad dream and it sounds like maybe you had your expectations rise for a moment after the brunch only to find he is still on his rollercoaster. Which then sends your emotions on a ride also.
The dream thing is normal. Try not to let it get to ya. Its innevitable that we are all gonna have these bad dreams. Try not to let it ruin the day and remind your self it was only a dream. I have those dreams too and I know how hard it is to not let them affect you. But try to put the focus on whatever it is your doing ( even if you have to say it over and over and just repeat to your self, I am washing the dishes , I am washing the dishes, I am washing the dishes...., it will help to keep you in the here and now instead of the past).
I find myself repeating the serenity prayer over and over several times a day (or even an hour or minute). Grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change, The courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. I also wear a cross necklace that was my Grandmothers to help me to remember to let go and let God. I have heard of others using a childs toy lego piece in their pocket to remind them to "Lego" and let God. What ever works!!!
Stay stong,
TIPPER
P.S. I love your suggestions to your H about not saying he is tired but rather he has had a productive day. I am gonna try to use that one on myself and others. Thanks.
Thanks for the tips Tipper!
I like the lego one. God knows I have lots of that hanging around. Only downside to that is sitting on it..ouch!
I am glad I could offer something of use to you too!
Journal update.
H stopped by to drop off the kids.
I asked him if he wanted a cup of tea and some freshly baked cake I made. I also gave him a small Father's day gift from the kids and me.
He said most reluctantly in my view, " Well, I will have a quick cup of tea."
I said calmly in a very normal and casual voice, "What you just said and the way you said it bothers me. It bothers me because I felt you'd rather leave. If you don't wish to stay, go, if you do wish to stay, then stay. My initial response to what you said in the past would have been " don't do me any favours."
Well, he instantly teared up. I knew I hit a sore spot immediately, and asked him what was going on? Who hurt him in the past? Could he connect what he was feeling now to a specific memory or person of authority or someone he loved that hurt him? I wiped away a tear from his face gently.
He said he couldn't connect it to anything or anyone just then. I asked him to think about it for a while it might come to him in the next few days, if it's safe for him to remember it.
I told him that kind of reaction is indicative of a past trauma and it wasn't just about what I said. I asked him if he had his stomach churning too. He said yes and the beginnings of a headache. He also said that when I told him what I did he felt like immediately leaving.
I mentioned that was because he was in survival mode right then...adrenaline rush, fight or flight response, that's why his stomach was churning. His headache was because of adrenaline hangover.
I gave him a technique to reduce that response that I have learned and use myself when I'm triggered by old emotional trauma as well.
I told him I was sorry about triggering an old hurt I didn't know about, I would never intentionally hurt him, and offered him a hug. He initially refused, but I told him it was a giving hug, I didn't want anything from him. He then accepted, I felt his body relax a little.
The rest of the visit went much better from there. He was still kind of disoriented by what had happened, and forgot to take his gift home with him. I left a message on his voice mail about that. He called back and said he'd pick it up later in the week.
I hope and pray that perhaps this episode will be the breakthrough in the gloom for him.
Ok, I have read this over 3 x. What happened again???
You made your statement and he teared up??? I want to understand--what was that about??
I could make a statement like that to my H all day long and he would never EVER become emotional. I am just amazed--what has happened to your H??
I am so amazed how you didn't jump in there and grill him. (like I would have!!) You were so calm! and helpful!!
My goodness--you have made some kind of turnaround so darn quickly.
You probably shouldn't tell me what has happened to your H. I think it best we not "mind read". But that reaction was really interesting!!
Yes I made my statement and he got very upset and teared up.
What that is LauraOh, is old trauma from childhood.
When I said what I said, something triggered in the most primitive part of his brain. It could have been the words, the tone of my voice, a smell, a small expression/gesture that immediately threw him back emotionally to a time as a child when he was in (as he perceived it then) danger.
Even though as an adult he was not in danger at that moment.
Strong emotional reactions like my H. had, the tears, the adrenaline rush & need to fight or flee are trauma based reactions. If the same type of trauma is repeated over and over the effect is cumulative and the emotional reaction is very strong. That's what I saw.
LOL, I find it funny you say this is a fast turnaround. I have made personal progress over the last year and half to be sure, but the static situation between H and me just seems to be dragging on and on in my view with very little forward momentum or improvement.
Nice to hear that you think there is something to be heartened about!
That is so interesting. After hearing my story about my H someone asked if he was abused when he was little. I have been asked that a lot. Never thought of it till others asked. I would say verbally. HIghly doubtful sexually. But, I often wonder what it is that makes them ask this.
There are five types of abuse LJGH2.
In order from worst to least.
Rejection, Emotional Abuse, Physical Abuse, Incest and Sexual abuse (from outside the family)
Rejection is classed first because there is no closure to it, it is ongoing in our lives, and it can start before birth. Babies in utero pick up on it chemically and kinesthetically and if the mother didn't want the child or there was physical abuse by the father upon the mother, the infant brain picks this up.
Emotional abuse can be worse than any physical abuse. It leaves invisible marks on the brain that make people reactive, as you saw in the example with my H.
Sounds like your H. has suffered emotional abuse as well.
i belive he did too. But, I highly doubt he will ever, ever talk about it. He'd rather be miserable about it for the rest of his life. So sad
I feel the same way about my H. LJGH2
They'd rather try to bury the vampire than stake it. So they let it and the issues disappear for a while only to come up and suck more life from them.
SC, I sometimes hesitate to post to you. We have such very different styles. But, I admire your ability to look inward and your take no prisoners way of attacking it head on.
I think that we should all handle our sitches in the way that suits us. And take into account the way we know our spouses (although we certainly dont know them as well as we thought we did).
I know for me, saying to me xh what you said to your h would make him very angry. Now it is fear of that anger that stops me from saying it, but, rather whether or not it would serve any purpose.
You touched a nerve for sure. Let him sit with what you said.
Continue to move forward in your life.
We only get this one chance at it.
Thanks for your response Brooklyn. I appreciate your perspective as one who has been in this for a lot longer than I care to imagine.
It's interesting to me that you wrote, if you had said what I did , to your XH he'd get angry. Mine would have too in the not too distant past.
I've had the opportunity with the work I've been doing on me to discover a few things that I've passed on to H.
I'll pass them to you too.
Anger is a secondary feeling to a primary emotion.
Meaning that underneath the anger is another emotion...usually a perceived (by them) hit to one's self image and/or self esteem, often rooted in shame/self loathing. It can be as minor as a micro-expression on someone's face.
This pretty much explains why they lash out at us.
Anger is a convienent cover and in men that are not in touch with deeper feelings and/or can't express them it's really all they know to show unless they get help.
As for my H. yeah I'm letting him sit with this. I can be sensitive and show empathy for his feelings but I'm not walking on eggshells anymore or feeding into his desire to avoid conflict at all costs. I've already lost him, I don't have much more to lose ya know?
Sorry for all the typos up there.
Yep, I understand about anger. The interesting thing about my xh is that he was angry early on, for several months and then he might have still been angry but didnt show it to me.
I know he has feelings of unworthiness. His mom died when he was 13 and I know a lot of stuff came from that.
He is a controlling person and if I would say something like that to him, his angry reaction is a way of not knowing how to deal with his feelngs. He also used to say that I try to analyze things when there is no underlying reason. So, to continue to do that would cause him to be angry. As I said, I am not afraid of causing him to get angry, just really isnt any point.
He needs to figure all this out on his own. Not my problem.
And yes, you need not walk on eggshells or not be true to yourself.
All interesting stuff, isnt it?
Hey Brooklyn, I've become expert at reading that new variant of English language of typo and even (omg) textese!
No worries. Yes it's all interesting, but also wearing ,something you know better than anyone here.
So, this morning, I text the H. a "Good morning P " a new habit (along with regularly asking things he can freely turn down so he gets used to saying "no").
This is 180 in my case as I never did this during our marriage - just to call or contact him at work. My perception ( and old childhood programming kicking in) then being that he wouldn't want to be bothered with interruptions.
Well, lo and behold. H gets chatty with me. It has happened before although very rarely. In the last month or so it seems every 4-5 days he'll go beyond a simple " Morning" response and engage until he has something else that needs his attention.
Small thing, but notable.
SC, I would think about not making it every morning and at times just a simple good morning. I understand that you want him to get used to being able to say no. I have a problem with that myself.
But, if it were me, I might not like to have to do it all the time.
Just my opinion. You know best.
And yes, it is wearing. That's why I stopped trying to understand it and just accepted it as is. It became too much for me to try to analyze it and stopped me from moving forward.
Thanks Brooklyn, I had thought of that, not doing it every morning, but then I thought, if I were in his office, I would greet him daily. That's what I let guide me,asking myself what would my behaviour be if I was just a friend he knew in the office?
It is just the simple greeting with his name attached, and I don't expect a response or go beyond that unless he initiates it as he did this morning.
It's strange and somewhat surprising none the less, considering the dynamic of the walkaway.
As far as the requests that he can say "no" to, they're not every day, they happen about once a week. Nothing big like an invitation to dinner or anything like that though, just simple things sometimes absolutely ridiculous/fun things .
Not much more to report lately.
Notice my voice has dropped in pitch considerably over time.
H. has continued to chat me up via TM in the mornings. It's kind of strange.
He doesn't even seem to mind the small bits of flirting...does a lot of LOL and smiley faces.
We are supervising a Bday party for one of our kids this weekend. He has offered to pick up the party goods and food.
We'll see how it goes.
I'm lately trying to push away negative thoughts about what he thinks about me and just not care.
So what if he thinks I'm controlling, so what if he thinks I'm not attractive,so what ...bla bla bla bla? I am who I am, I am a good person, honest, true and loyal and if he doesn't accept me or the changes I've worked so hard for others have,can and will.
Had the party. Kids are done in, H. has left.
Kids had a good time. H had a good time as did I.
It was a nice party held at another venue.
H. helped clean up and I allowed him to go into what was once our home on his own, to put stuff away.
A departure for me since he left. I changed the security codes and asked for his only key when he did go.
Youngest begged him to stay. I told H. he could stay if he wished. He told our youngest and me that he had housework to finish at his apartment. I asked if he had please taken the extra soda, as it was a constant temptation. He laughed and said he knew it was, and it was in his car.
We said our goodbyes.
I don't know. I feel disconnected from him and hardly care what he does or does not do, what he does and does not think about me anymore.
I've worked my heart out over these last couple years to change myself and try to save my M.
Perhaps it wasn't worth saving once he walked out, he shows absolutely no movement forward. Is doing nothing more than existing day to day far as I see and know.
One of my siblings said something interesting to me when I mentioned there may be a possibilty of an EA or PA: " You really think he has the energy and initiative to pick up with someone else?" My sibling also believes that if I fought him he'd cave oompletely on access to the kids too and just give up. I could see that happening myself.
Every day it seems I get closer to "done".
Journaling-
I'm getting ever more numb and indifferent where he concerned. He's a stranger now and someone that seems to believe that I am not worth fighting for and neither is the family we created. His behaviour certainly shows this.
I am getting resigned and closer to acceptance of the thought that this person I cared deeply about and for, for 26 years, stopped loving and caring about me a long time ago, because he sees love only as a feeling, and is not about a choice, a decision made and actions taken.
That feeling for him is gone and love died, and can't be restored or sustained. He loves our kids, but not me. Simple.
A bitter and upsetting pill to swallow, but swallow I must.
I don't think I can keep on hoping for R anymore. After 2 years? Really? With this little change in the situation, with all the work I've accomplished and is ongoing with me personally, with my kids growing all the time, with me living in this marital limbo?
I must be delusional or freaking Pollyanna not to see the writing on the wall.
Update -
Had a discussion with H. this evening.
He decided since the kids were close to being out of school for summer he could increase his visits and do a little one on one with each child. I had no objection, so this evening he came to pick up one to be with after work. He came back around 8PM to drop child off. Then he wanted to leave. Both my kids were begging him to stay longer. I looked at him and said, " Could I talk to you for five minutes?"
He didn't say yes or say no. I waited, and asked " Well?" He gestured with his eyes to a room, and we went. The conversation best I can remember went like this:
Me - " See how they are, this has been going on all week and I'm running out of things to tell them." How do you wish to handle this?"
H - " I'll talk to them."
M - " So you wish to do this unilaterally, not as a united front?"
He thought for a moment ( I could see he was very uncomfortable with this conversation he had difficulty finding the words to say, was getting red faced, a little teary eyed, stretching his neck, coughing a little, sniffing.)
H - " I guess we better address this together."
M - " It doesn't have to be addressed right now, but this is something that is not going to go away, no matter how much you wish it to, and I can see by your physical reactions, that you really wish this would all disappear.
Look, I know you're uncomfortable with me. In fact I get the distinct impression that you'd rather be anywhere else and that you dislike me."
H - "It isn't that I dislike you. I just wasn't expecting to do this now."
M - " I know this is difficult for you, I know you'd prefer I'd make arrangements to speak with you about things like this in advance. The fact is life happens and I have to deal with things as they happen, on the fly. I can't often talk to you about this stuff given your preferences, but it does have to be dealt with. I deal with stuff like this every day H. I don't enjoy it, but I do it because it's necessary.
H - Silence. Fanning himself because he's feeling really hot and uncomfortable.
M - "Would you rather go somewhere else for this conversation where it's cooler?"
We moved to a different area of the house.
M- " I can see you're very uncomfortable."
H- "Yes I have a headache and my back hurts."
M - " Do you know why?"
H - " Not really"
M - "You're perceiving this conversation as a life or death conflict right now H. Your back hurts because your adrenal glands just flooded your body with stress hormones. Your head hurts from the adrenaline reaction that you've had to suppress. Tell me, did you feel like running or did your hands ball up?"
H - "Both. I had to conciously unclench my hands."
M - "So you didn't know whether to run or fight."
At this point we discussed how he saw his parents fight as a kid, and that he felt many of these same things growing up. How he didn't learn conflict resolution from them or even the difference between a fight, an argument, a difference of opinion or a discussion.
M - " Can you keep living his way H? Can you continue to have to deal with me if every time I provoke this response?
You are associating me with all these lousy feelings, but you know I'm not the cause, just the trigger.
I'm not the only one you respond this way to. It has to be bleeding out into other areas of your life. ( I mentioned a few names of people. He agreed he had many of the same feelings with them.)
We're talking. I'm not angry, yelling, screaming at you , name calling or threatening. This is not life or death, I'm not an axe murderer.
( He began to laugh at this, I smiled in response)
If I were then you should be having this response!"
H - " I know, this doesn't feel good."
M - As I see it H. you have a choice here, stay stuck, back there in survival mode as you were as a kid. Or do something. Are you happy being stuck, happy feeling this way in every interaction you have with me?
You have been a witness to what I've gone through dealing with my own garbage.
IMO you're at a crossroads and have two ways to go here, deal with and process this pain, to go through it to make those feelings diminish and not have them control your behaviour....or....choose to keep on avoiding and trying cover up those feelings. You've seen how that works in your own family H.
Addictions, alcoholism, overeating, serial marriage. How well does it work?
H - "My uncle drank and ate himself to death."
M - H., I don't want that for you. With me or without me, I want to see you succeed, be healthy and well. To be able to deal with what we're dealing with and not feel like you need to run, fight, or freeze anymore.
It's your choice H. I can't do this for you. I can't even help you with it.
H.- " I know."
M - I am not your mother H., I'm your wife. Please repeat it.
( He did.)
M - "Choose wisely grasshopper." ( He smiled at that.)
I am exhausted today. I've done almost nothing workwise. I guess that talk with my kid's Dad took more out of me than I thought it did.
Tonight he comes to pick up the other child for one on one time.
I think I'll be posting an update tonight too.
He is scheduled to pick them both up tomorrow night as well.
Stay tuned if you're interested.
Typing here is the only stress relief I can manage right now, besides exhausting myself physically.
You might not like this Scylla.
Reading the conversation, without knowing the tone of voice used, it sounds like you talk down to him, more of a superior than equal.
For you to determine if that is the case.
You have said you like my POV.
I cannot say that I would respond well to that.
What strikes me is that it seems that you want him to jump to your conclusions and are pulling him by the nose ring there, instead of leading him to them.
I understand your perspective Jack. I can see what you're saying.
My tone of voice was conversational and calm. No histrionics. I put down what I could remember. There was more.
Perhaps it is as you say I was trying to lead him by the nose.
I don't know what I can do about that to be honest,I have been avoiding R talks as much as I can or discussions about our kids.
After two years he's still waffling, neither moving forward or backward. Whatever he does or does not do I will have to cope with regardless.
We'll see what happens. Truth is I'm >.< this close to giving up on him. For me I'm not even sure I want him back if he gets so upset merely talking to me. What's the point?
SC, when I read your conversation, it kinda made me cringe. Sorry, but it did.
You werent really talking with him, you were talking at him. He didnt ask for your opinion. But, boy, you gave it.
I understand that you are learning all this stuff about yourself and you want to share it, SC. I do. But, reread that conversation. You sounded like his teacher.
I am not normally so blunt, but, I have seen you struggling for some time now.You said you dont know what you can do about seeming to lead him by the nose. Well, you can stop. You realy can MAKE him see what YOU want him to see. He has to see it for himself or it aint gonna mean anything, ya know?
SC, you have also been saying for some time now that you are just about done. But, you have not really and truly dropped the rope. You keep trying to engage him with texts and flirting and explaining his actions to him.
But, what you really need to do is detach completely. You think you have, but, really you havent.
You have to live your life as if he isnt coming back. And that means really living it. Trying to make him feel guilty about the kids and trying to get him to understand what he's feeling is pressure to him.
Now, I am not telling you to do these things as tactics. I am telling you because that is when you will begin to heal.
Everytime you post, it is about him or about how you are done or about how he doesnt love you anymore.
Truth is, you dont really know how he feels or what he's thinking.
So, SC, I hope you accept this post in the manner in which is was intended. I just dont want to see you continue to go round and round.
The sooner you live your life for you and your children, the better. The sooner you find out who you really are and what makes you happy, the better.
I'd like to get to know you, SC. What are you doing to to make your life happier, fuller, deeper.
Your h can blow in the breeze right now.
It is your life I am interested in.
Keep moving forward, SC, without constantly looking over your shoulder at him.
Be the best SC you can be.
Yes, I have tried to engage him as doing a 180. Is that wrong?
Do I go dark? That would have been my very first instinct, instead I tried what I'm doing....
You interpret my pointing out that the kids are begging him to stay and asking me questions about the situation as "making him feel guilty" ?
Wow. I'm just fricking tired of dealing with it on my own.
Everytime you post, it is about him or about how you are done or about how he doesnt love you anymore.
Yeah I do, because I have no where else to go with this garbage frankly. It's a way of journaling my feelings of hopeless and helplessness in the face of this crap that's gone on waaaay to long IMHO.
The sooner you live your life for you and your children, the better. The sooner you find out who you really are and what makes you happy, the better.
Working on it, every freaking day I'm working on it Brooklyn.
Oh by the way. I'm believing he doesn't love me any more, not just supposing it or whining about it. He doesn't ....end of story. where there is fear,( and there is a whole crapload from my POV given his physiological reactions in just talking to me) there can be no love.
I'm tired of being the castoff wife. I want someone absolutely nuts about me. H. isn't and that doesn't even seem a remote possibility for the future.
Sweetie, I hesitate to post to you sometimes. I know that in writing things it is sometimes difficult to convey what one really wants to.
I know that you are tired of dealing with all this. I do. While I do not have young children, my son was 15 when this all happened. A difficult age to have to deal with this.
I also have a degenerative neuromuscular disease, as does my son, although his is much worse. So, when my xh left, I was left to deal with taking care of a four bedroom home with 3/4 of an acre of land with legs and hands that arent really worth much most days.
I also had to deal with my son who was, at times, suicidal. In addition, I have been unable to find full time work that I can handle and in this economy, so, I dont have medical insurance.
I had been with my xh for over 30 years. I found out the he was having an affair on my 25th wedding anniversary. He had made sure to go away with her on that day.
He amassed over $60,000 in debt I did not know about, for which I owe half. He cashed in his IRA's and invaded most of his 401K. He also lost his job over two years ago. My house is in foreclosure. I received no alimony. I owe thousands and thousands of dollars. I can go on but,
I tell you this because I want you to know that I really do understand about feeling overwhelmed.
From a dbing standpoint, yes, telling him about the kids is putting pressure. Here's the thing - whether he is coming back or not, whether he loves you or not, either way, you have to deal with what you have to deal with.
He isnt hearing you right now. He is incapable or unwilling to deal with it.
So, you can continue to spin your wheels or you can start living your life.
And start to figure out how to help your kids through it, too. And yes, it succks that it has to be you to do that, but, it is what it is.
SC, I know this is hard. I know it hurts. I just want to see you start to really move forward or you are going to remain stuck.
I will tell you this, I honestly believe my xh loves me. As much as he is capable of. But, it doesnt change anything. I have to live my life.
As far as what to do dbwise. Well, you have to go by your instincts. If you remember, try something, if it doesnt work, try something else.
But dont do them as tactics. Do what is best for you. Going dark was necessary for me. In order for me to heal. And I felt it was best for my xh, too. Everytime we engaged in conversation of any length, it was difficult for him and for me, too.
This is all trial and error, SC.
Mainly, though, dbing should be for you. It's kind of a roadmap to how to live your life.
And of course you should come here to vent. But I dont want to see you only coming here for that. You can get so much more from this place.
Lastly, SC, when you are really done you will know it.
I am really upset right now Brooklyn. I thank you for your kind reply and I know very well you've been put through hell by your X. In fact I want to boot his behind for you.
That said, my reply will be brief because I'm really in a bad emotional state right now.
He isnt hearing you right now. He is incapable or unwilling to deal with it.
I saw that today. You talk about me spinning my wheels...whoa, he's axle deep in mud with a thrown piston rod.
However I question whether leaving things alone is a good strategy. He is an adult. He has children, and responsibilities to them. He claims to love them, so wouldn't he put their welfare and feelings somewhere in there? He does see them every week and alternate weekends? He isn't totally AWOL where they're concerned.
And start to figure out how to help your kids through it, too. And yes, it succks that it has to be you to do that, but, it is what it is.
I have been Brooklyn. I have the kids seeing counselors. They unload on me almost every other night, or in the car as we're going somewhere.
It's more often after seeing their Dad. I reassure them daily. I'm holding it together as best I can. I don't know what else I can possibily do to be honest. I keep them and myself busy with activities.
I'm dating now, just more to get out and for the companionship than anything else and enjoying that a great deal. I look great, I keep physically active. I really try to fill my own cup and lean on my friends when I need to. I am working on healing my own old hurts and pain that has intruded into my present, and dealing with my dysfunctional behaviour that has played no small part in the dissolution of my M. I too am looking for work after being a stay at home mom for years. What else is there to do?
As far as what to do dbwise. Well, you have to go by your instincts. If you remember, try something, if it doesnt work, try something else.But dont do them as tactics. Do what is best for you
I have been using the guidance of my my DB coach in this Brooklyn, it's not me trying on my own to remember the book and winging it. What I was doing looked like it was working to me. Now I'm not so sure. I wasn't trying to use them as tactics. Although I will admit when I first read DB and DR it looked like a step by step cookbook for getting back your spouse.
And of course you should come here to vent. But I dont want to see you only coming here for that. You can get so much more from this place.
I come here to mainly vent because honestly I have no where else to go with this stuff. I can't talk about it to anyone.
Honestly, what I feel is that this is mainly a place where marriages go to die, and where people in those dying marriages are looking for that miracle cure to stop the doctors from pulling the plug on the life support machine. Since I've been here all I've seen is marriages blow up and fade away.
I was brought here by hope and optimism, but that's fading.
Oh SC, I hope I didnt upset you. I would feel horribly if I did.
If you are getting advice from a db coach, then, that is the advice you should listen to.
SC, - your h should absolutely be involved with his children. But I can tell you this, if he is in a MLC, he is incapable of it.
From what I've learned and read, they want to run away from all responsibilities. They are feeling helpless and confused and blame the person who was closest to them. They feel that if they can get away, then they'll be happy. When that doesnt work, they try something else until they realize that the problem is them.
I absolutely believe there is such a thing as an MLC. My xh was a wonderful father and a good h. He was responsible and trustworthy. I saw him turn into a completely different person, incapable of handling even the simplest responsibilities.
Your h has a ways to go to make it out the other end of the tunnel. And truth be told, he may never.
There are no promises here. But I do believe this is the best chance that people have.
While it was initially a place I came to save my marriage, it ultimately helped save me.
One other thing, while it is absolutely your decision whether to date, it really is best to wait until you are fully healed and are really ready to move on. I have seen it happen on here and in real life, people get hurt.
SC, you are doing great. You are keeping it together for your kids. You are working on you. You are GAL and doing 180's. Focus on those things.
Your h is on his own journey. Let him walk it. You walk yours.
Hang in there, sweetie.
Please know that I want only the best for you. I want to see you thrive and grow and heal. Really and truly.
No it's not you that upset me.
I am upset by events this evening and my life in general.
Your h has a ways to go to make it out the other end of the tunnel. And truth be told, he may never.
If this is truly the case, then I don't think I can continue on being married to him or frustrating myself by DBing. Better for him to cut me loose and let me try to find love with someone else who gives a crap about me, about the kids, and who will love us the way we deserve to be loved. Better to pretend he is dead to me. Which was my first inclination when this all happened in the beginning.
I love and care for my h, or at least the person I believe he was.
I can't help him. I can't counsel him. I accept that. I've told him that.
One other thing, while it is absolutely your decision whether to date, it really is best to wait until you are fully healed and are really ready to move on. I have seen it happen on here and in real life, people get hurt.
I am not looking for a long term relationship, just freindship. I'm very clear on that. I don't want to hurt someone or be hurt either.
I'm very upfront about things.
Scylla, it must feel that everyone is ganging up on you? But really Brooklyn is one of the kindest, as well as the funniest posters on these boards. I admire her hugely. And jack gives good advice too.
I have worked through MLC - dealt with the kids' pain, the loneliness, the unhappiness, the divorce. So much of what you post I have felt, I really have. I just wish i had dealt with it with as much style and grace as people like Brooklyn.
But, I did in my way and nearly 6 years on I am in a pretty good place. I am on my own, have my own house. Less money than I had by a long chalk.
I can now see clearly that my husband loved me [I think he still does] but lost the road map of his life. Only he can find it, but I can be there now as a friend for him should he want it. Another poster said we have to feel respect for someone in order to love them. I am not sure - compassion is very very strong too. Not quite the same as feeling sorry for them.
It hurts and you are deep in your own hurt, it seems to me. I understand that, but if you can try and move outside of that circle of pain it will help you. I worked with the homeless and addicts on a part time voluntary basis: they needed the help but actually it helped me more, to see addictive behaviour and people infinitely more hurting than me.
Yes, your children talk to you about their hurt and that is really good, they are not internalising it. It shows that there was something very good there, in an odd way. It is very positive that your h wants to have an r with his children, as so many do not even want that. They literally take off and abandon them totally in MLC.
I would also urge you to stop explaining your h to himself. You are likely right, but it won't do much good, if he is typically MLC.
Try and love and value yourself. You are doing a good job. We are not commenting to devalue you, or what you are going through. And please do not stop coming here to vent. I have done more than my fair share [years ago and under another name] It helps, and you mustn't feel we are gagging you, which can be the effect of this 'advice', however kindly meant.
One thing - if you can find a friend to exchange emails or phone conversations with it will also help. It will also make you less likely to turn to an op for support. Hugs and hang in there.
Hey SC--I have wondered from the beginning if your H was truly in MLC. He's not quite the same "spend all the money, get a sportscar, get a young OW, abandon the W and kids" type that you see a lot of around here.
Mine wasn't either--very much the opposite in fact.
Anyway, my H, for reasons that I think are similar to your H's, is in crisis again. I was here 7 years ago and I ALWAYS had to do 180s that seemed opposite to what everyone else was doing--for example, going dark was NEVER going to work in my sitch--it made my H feel he was being abandoned all over again.
*I* think you are mostly on the right track! Yes, you whine a bit.lol. But I think for YOU, engaging him in a calm way, flirting, allowing him to say "no" to you (I think you have been a boundary buster in the past.lol) is a huge 180. And yes, you do lead a bit too strong--well that last one especially. But I think it's not that bad in YOUR sitch.
I see you and him making small progressive steps--with the usual backwards steps that people make.
The more positive you are, the better you interact with him and the bigger the step forward.
For me, SC, I ALWAYS "act as if" my H loved me, always loved me, and still loves me. Does/did he in reality? I don't know. Doesn't matter--my interactions with him are ALWAYS more productive if I "act as if" this is true. EVERYTHING I say and do is less defensive when I have this mindset.
I HUGELY believe in DBing--even though I soon will be D'd. I've been here a long time. My H has too many issues--ones that your H DOESN'T have (mine is physically violent now. Fight mode has taken over??? I have really no choice but to let him go).
Coming here totally changed ME. Where would I be without this site? Because I still would be D'd. But I wouldn't have the peace I have inside that I did all I could.
(although I have to say, I am fascinated by some of your leading--and fascinated that your H listens to you--you DO have him thinking! But the others are right--don't MAKE him come to any conclusions--he will "accept" them more if he comes to them on his own.)
I think you should definitely listen to your DB coaches--I think they see a lot of positives going on here, and so do I.
And always remember that there are 180s for YOU and YOUR sitch--and listen to that little voice that says you are on the right track.
Oh--and NOTHING will make you more "done" than dating.
Thank you for all your kind replies.
I have to think about things for a while and decide what direction I'm going to jump in.
This morning, I am not quite as upset as last night but still tearful.
I have the powerful desire to write my H. tell him directly I'm dating and that if he wishes to contact me, it must be in writing (no email or text), that his visitation will go on as it always has, but I will not be there for the exchange or to invite him into my home as I would a friend any longer ( I don't feel he is my friend, more a frenemy).
I want to go so very dark right now and put up a shield he can barely penetrate.
I won't do anything right now, feelings like this need to be processed over the next 72 hours. I know I need to put things in context and deescalate my reaction and try to get over feeling worthless and as a failure right now.
Just a note for you all.
It was clear to me from what I've learned over these last months while I've been doing my work, that my H sees me as an authority figure ( mother) and that provokes the flight,fight.freeze response.
Having him repeat that I am his wife not his mother 3X is a way to break that connection of , mother = authority = danger, and deescalate the survival response.
I thank you all again for your responses. I need some time to think and I will respond to each of you when my thoughts are not so chaotic and mixed in with my survival patterns and responses.
Interesting development.
This morning, I did not text H. Good Morning as has become my habit ( and my 180) over the last month or so.
Just now, he texted me a morning greeting.
I did reply in kind.
SC, I can see that you are a very strong, intelligent, capable woman.
I know that you still love your h.
I did not mean, in any way, to negate the things you are going through or the way you have been handling all this.
Without really knowing all of the dynamics and exchanges we go through, we have to respond based simply on what we are told.
You should absolutely follow what the db coach is telling you. And only you know if it is working or not.
There are many positives in your sitch. Your h is still in your children's lives and he isnt being financially irresponsible.
That said, I feel that you are very discouraged, tired and deeply hurt. You have reason to be, I know that.
But that really is the reason why I engouraged you to detach. As long as you are still so deep in your h's head and holding onto to feelings of anger and resentment, you will not be able to continue moving forward.
I know that all of this is terribly difficult. And it is necessary to feel those feelings, process them and then eventually let them go. Because I know for me, when I didnt, it sapped my strength and kept me stuck.
I really do want for you to feel enpowered over your own feelings and let go and let your h deal with his own. I believe the sooner we take control of our own lives and get out of the way of our spouses journey, the stronger we become.
Best of luck, sweetie.
Having him repeat that I am his wife not his mother 3X is a way to break that connection of , mother = authority = danger, and deescalate the survival response.
But making him do that...isn't that counter productive?
Only an authority figure would make him do that.
Jack many things in life are a paradox. My being an "authority" in H.s life has it's benefits and drawbacks. Suffice it to say that role is complicated.
We'll see what happens. As I remember I made a polite request, not a demand ,and he did comply. I didn't "make" him do anything.
I don't recall conversations verbatim sadly. I remember the content more. I did my very best not to speak in directives although the conversation I typed out may not give an accurate impression of what I did or did not do. I know it's a habit of mine to speak in a clipped fashion and in directives, so I'm aware of it and doing my best to make suggestions, offers, requests, and ask questions instead.
Me saying the words which I asked him to say wouldn't be enough to break my authority, as my voice has little to no influence over his subconcious mind which has put me in that position. His voice saying those words out loud, on the other hand has enormous power.
It's a tool for him to use if he starts to feel panicky around me. A reminder that I really have no power over him.
I would also urge you to stop explaining your h to himself. You are likely right, but it won't do much good, if he is typically MLC.
Yes I agree. It's pointless and like trying to teach a pig to sing. It frustrates you and irritates the pig.
Although I will say this. Often we're not aware of our physical state when we are deep into it. My husband only conciously recognised he was clenching his fists and felt like running when I asked. The why of that phsyical state is important to recognise your emotions are running you and not you making a concious decision to act.
One thing - if you can find a friend to exchange emails or phone conversations with it will also help. It will also make you less likely to turn to an op for support. Hugs and hang in there.
Yes well this is a challenge. There are few people that truly understand what I'm going through in my personal life, and those that do are still fighting with the ongoing issues of having their own abusive marriages disintegrate and dealing with child custody challenges.
I don't want to burden them. They have more than enough on their plates...significantly more.
That's why I b*tch and moan here.
I still at the end of the day feel very alone in this, however much I talk, distract and keep busy.
That said, I feel that you are very discouraged, tired and deeply hurt
You know it.
Men like my H with their silence and avoidance cause we women to rip ourselves to shreds. We take on the all blame. Is it us, what is it about us that's wrong/ unloveable? We develop a checklist and we go through it in excrutiating detail. In the end...everything is wrong with us, and we deem ourselves worthless.
I did that.
If you're like me, it's your program to work more, try harder, be more "perfect", but it's never enough, and you're not good enough and never will be.
Hence my pseudonym.
I'm breaking that programmed hold slowly.
It doesn't take much to send me back to that set of programmed beliefs and I have a hard time giving up,because , maybe, just this time, I'll get it right.
By the way I thank you for your kindness and empathy Brooklyn. It's a pleasure having you post to my thread, even if it's to give me a swat.
*I* think you are mostly on the right track! Yes, you whine a bit.lol. But I think for YOU, engaging him in a calm way, flirting, allowing him to say "no" to you (I think you have been a boundary buster in the past.lol) is a huge 180. And yes, you do lead a bit too strong--well that last one especially. But I think it's not that bad in YOUR sitch.
I see you and him making small progressive steps--with the usual backwards steps that people make.
The more positive you are, the better you interact with him and the bigger the step forward.
Thanks for the vote of confidence LauraOh. I take heart in that and the fact the H. has not totally tuned me out.
For me, SC, I ALWAYS "act as if" my H loved me, always loved me, and still loves me. Does/did he in reality? I don't know. Doesn't matter--my interactions with him are ALWAYS more productive if I "act as if" this is true. EVERYTHING I say and do is less defensive when I have this mindset.
I understand what you're saying here, and I've pretty much had a compassionate and loving attitude toward him. Nonetheless the urge to protect myself and keep saying the mantra, "He doesn't love you" to harden myself ahd make me indifferent toward him is very strong right now.
My H has too many issues--ones that your H DOESN'T have (mine is physically violent now. Fight mode has taken over??? I have really no choice but to let him go).
No I don't think in your H.'s case it's a survival instinct in him. Abusers are very controlled when they wish to be. They can stop and start on a dime.
"Why yes police officer, no there's nothing wrong here." with a pleasant smile, submissive demeanor and a murderous rage well hidden.
Your H. can control his behaviour, but chooses not to exert his will IMHO.
And always remember that there are 180s for YOU and YOUR sitch--and listen to that little voice that says you are on the right track.
I really try to do that. To let my actions be guided by compassion and concious deliberation, and that little nudge.
Thanks Laura, I appreciate your words and your observations.
A happy and sad day today.
My youngest child's birthday.
I remember his birth and the cicumstances and that my H was there for it all, holding and helping.
I am grateful I have this memory, bittersweet as it is.
Had a nice, small family/close friends birthday party for one of my children.
Texted H about the plans in the morning and that he was welcome to be here.
He showed up about 40 minutes before my family and friends were leaving. Apologised for falling asleep and being late. I said no apology was necessary.
My company treated him as they always do with affection, kindness and acceptance. He hugged them all as they left after celebrating. Even my Mom and Dad.
H. stayed a while, after the rest of my company left and we negotiated whether he would take our kids that night or in the morning. I said it really didn't matter to me if he took them for the whole long weekend. So he asked the kids to collect extra clothing, and they left.
Kids hugged me goodbye. I told them all to have a great weekend.
I didn't expect any affectionate gestures on his part.
Still, reflecting back today on last evening, I find it rather odd that he hugged the rest of my family, but not me.