It sure has been a long time since I posted anything about my life.
I heard this song on the radio and it reminded me of the MLC days and this special place (DB) that got me through the crisis.
This is the song that I think really seared into my Husband's heart whenever it played on the radio.
We moved finally, which I am thrilled about so we really do get to have the fresh start we wanted.
It is strange sometimes to be around family again. None of them had anything to do with me or the children the whole time H was gone.
They act totally normal as though nothing ever happened, there has been no mention of the past.
The kids are all doing well and are looking forward to starting new schools.
D10 still have some health issues but we are taking care of that with the help of some specialists.
Besos and Hugs
BND
I'm staring out into the night, trying to hide the pain
I'm going to the place where love
And feeling good don't ever cost a thing
And the pain you feel's a different kind of pain
Well, I'm going home, back to the place where I belong
And where your love has always been enough for me
I'm not running from, no, I think you got me all wrong
I don't regret this life I chose for me
But these places and these faces are getting old
So I'm going home, well I'm going home
The miles are getting longer, it seems, the closer I get to you
I've not always been the best man or friend for you
But your love it makes true and I don't know why
You always seem to give me another try
So I'm going home, back to the place where I belong
And where your love has always been enough for me
I'm not running from, no, I think you got me all wrong
I don't regret this life I chose for me
But these places and these faces are getting old
Be careful what you wish for 'cause you just might get it all
You just might get it all and then some you don't want
Be careful what you wish for 'cause you just might get it all
You just might get it all, yeah
Oh, well I'm going home, back to the place where I belong
And where your love has always been enough for me
I'm not running from, no, I think you got me all wrong
I don't regret this life I chose for me
But these places and these faces are getting old
I said these places and these faces are getting old
So I'm going home, I'm going home
Chica, nice to see you posting in here....so glad you are all moved in and all is well with your family......as you can see lots of us still in here....hanging till the end.....but getting a life, I was reading some of my old posts and desperation was all over my post,feels so good to have peace in MY LIFE, turned it all over to God and he is providing everything for me and my daughter......feels good not to have to think about him and our situation 24/7 ugh!!!!!! I hated that....but here I am and am doing good.....I remember when we spoke that one time and I thank you for that......your story was terrible,at least mine left and we never really have any contact....you shared with me a time in your life and shared with me some advice and I have tried to remember it....so I thank you again.....enjoy the new place and may God bless that home with love for ever and ever....besos....Irma
BND,
I dont think that I ever posted to you but I would always check in to see how things were going. Just want to thank you for your honesty and willingness to offer advice to others.
Best of luck in the new home.
May God continue to bless you and keep you.
Adriane
BND,
I'm glad you and your family have moved and have been afforded the opportunity of a fresh start. You and your family went through a very difficult time and yet, everyone pulled together and now it's time for all of you to share in the benefits of what all of you fought for...your family, marriage, etc.
It is rather odd how family tends to pretend that nothing ever happened and the old "sweep it under the carpet" still takes place in families. It's a shame that people cannot face what took place and learn from it the way that you and your family did. However, you came here and shared your life w/all who read your postings and you helped so many during your painful journey.
I want to wish you and your family all of the happiness that life has to offer. All of you have earned it.
BND,
Thank you for posting. I am sure that your journey was very tough and painful. I admire your resilience and your ability to forgive. I do love that song and only hope that all the ML'ers will eventually wake up and realize what was waiting for them at home all along.
I often wonder how my ex's family would be if we ever got back together. They certainly did not show any loyalty to me.
I guess this is pretty standard but very hard to swallow.
God Bless
Trusting,
I imagine it's standard for them to sweep it under the carpet. My ex's family didn't show any loyalty to me at all, except one uncle. We have always been good friends and that friendship continues today.
Blood is thicker than water.
I don't think "in laws" really know how to handle things other then to show loyalty to their family member.
Seriously, until any of us came to this place who really ever knew much about a MLC?
All I knew was what I had seen in the movies. Red sports car, brief fling with the secretary etc.
I knew absolutely nothing about all of the emotional stuff.
I assume that when the MLC'er tells their family the reason they are leaving their spouse it probably sounds very logical and credible.
Remember MLC'ers lie.....ALOT!
My SIL has brought up little things here and there but my BIL and MIL act as if...
I am sure one day something will come up but I am not ready to rock the boat.
Good for you BND. My FIL is still good friends with me, although I've noticed he's included OW in his 'jokes of the day' sessions on email. Haven't heard from BIL. Worse is my step-sons, who I had a hand in raising. They are always sweet to me, but there is a tension there. I realize they are in a tough spot. I just keep making little friendly overtures to them, to keep in touch.
Congrats!
I have a question....
I was reading some things over in the infidelity forum.
I know I made numerous mistakes and was a total basketcase when I first came here.
But I also know now in hindsight that exposing my Husband's affair to everyone backfired.
It didn't make him suddenly want to come home and reconcile.
It made him angry and hostile and only justified his reasons for leaving me.
I was hoping if any of you could post here your experiences.
Thanks so much!!
BND
I am reading Antonia thread right now over there.
The exposing I agree does not work, however Puppy and Allen are giving her good advice as far as boundary setting and enforcement of those boundaries. Allen is very strict with that I see. I wonder if the LBS is ready for all of this so early in the crisis. But I guess in theory there is nothing wrong with having a no affair boundary. The NC rule is also very good.
I guess my question to you BND was there anything that you could have done to shorten his crisis?
Do you feel that you made it longer?
I guess that is what I see as wrong with the exposure.
Penalty time in the tunnel.
I do not believe you can shorten the crisis.
Exposure will not work for that.
I will be interested who posts here and what they say.
Brandnew
I do not believe that I ever posted to you but have found your posts to other to be quite enlighting. I am happy that you have a new start and I wish you and your family nothing but the best.
Now as far as exsposing the A - IMO, when someone is in a MLC it does not work. That was my experience.
I found out about my W first EA with a man in another state about a week after the bomb. I confronted and I took responsibility for HER actions. It did not change anythng. THe EA went on for another 2 months. That is when she started a new job and began an PA with her supoervisor.
Since this was 2.5 months post bomb (I was still living in the house and sleeping in the same bed) I often wonder if "technically" this is an A. IMO - it is. I kept my mouth shut for a few months (trying to not confront). I ended up confrontng her (and trust me it was not nice) BUT really I was not in an emotional healthy place to do this. THE confrontation did nothing but bring them closer and IMO made her file.
So IMO - someone in an MLC should never be confronted until the LBS is really (and I mean really) in a place of peace and is willng to live with the consequences that may ensue a confrontation.
Finally, if you think about what an MLC person is going thru...confronting them is in one way a form of control, which does not go over well with someone who is fighting an internal battle.
GOd BLess,
Eric
I have a question....
I was reading some things over in the infidelity forum.
I know I made numerous mistakes and was a total basketcase when I first came here.
But I also know now in hindsight that exposing my Husband's affair to everyone backfired.
It didn't make him suddenly want to come home and reconcile.
It made him angry and hostile and only justified his reasons for leaving me.
I was hoping if any of you could post here your experiences.
Thanks so much!!
It honestly worked for me, BND, but it certainly doesn't for everyone. Affairs thrive on secrecy (and romance and intrigue), and often when you expose them, it'll IMMEDIATELY kill the affair maybe 25% of the time, in my experience. Others are more deeply entrenched, and it takes longer, and re-exposure, and re-RE-exposure. Others it will NEVER work (no one technique does).
It does pose complications, too. It will make your cheating spouse LIVID in the short-term; some get over that in a day or two, others take longer. Relationships will have to be mended once you reconcile. I personally would definitely do it again (it worked very well), but I probabably wouldn't have exposed to my own family -- just my wife's, our adult children, OM's parents and their employer. But that's just me.
I think we all need to try to be respectful of each other's positions on this (and other) controversial topics, and realize that our own experiences are just that -- our experiences. What works for one doesn't work for all, and -- whenever possible -- we should back up our opinions with research whenever possible. Some of the best infidelity authors, researchers and counselors out there DO recommend this as a tactic (Harley, Glass, Spring, Tupy and others), so it's far from a screwball, fringe position.
I think this is one of those "reasonable people may disagree" things.
Puppy
Hi Brandnewday,
Glad to hear all is well with you!! Good to see you visit!!
Exposure... Well, I did expose my H's A. We are now reconciling. I exposed it when I had proof about it. I got the proof when his A was dying of natural causes and to him seemed ...not important anymore but still couldnt break it up with her. He told me the exposure made the break up easier for him.
I believe it is apsolutely important, crucial, WHEN the LBS exposes the A. If it is during the middle of their fog, the first months or year of the affair, the exposure may even have the opposite result. And I am talking about affairs that have some kind of emotional basis, not just sexual.
Good luck at your new home!
K
I'm fairly new to this exposure thing, and guess what, it's not working......YET! It's driving them closer together. But I went in to this with my eyes wide open. I knew it would drive them closer. However, it's adding an element to their A that they really don't want ME
I'm doing everything I do in a very responsible manner. I'm not name calling (believe me I want to) I'm not threatening and everything I do and say, I'm okay if it's "held against me in a court of law" By keeping the situation a secret you are robbing yourself of the support you need. By keeping the situation a secret, you are saying that you will enable this A. I feel very good about the steps I've taken and the advice I've gotten.
The ONLY thing I would have done differently (and this is more NC than exposure) is talked to him when I wasn't shaking. I would have sat down and done it in a little more "professional" manner - however...I can't change that and I couldn't take another second of the A being in my face. I was starting to feel uncontrollable rage and hatred. I was throwing things at him and saying horribly hurtful things to him.
It sucks, all the way around. I hope that this works. I have faith that it will. His most recent letter to our 3rd party stated I drug him through the dirt, that he doesn't see how this was working on the marriage - it was done to beat him down. I VERY respectfully came back with WHY I did it.
He should be the one that feels shame....not me.
I'd have to agree with Eric, that there's a huge difference between exposing a regular affair and an MLC affair. I did not expose my H's MLC EA, partly because infidelity was so opposed to his behaviour when not depressed that it seemed more respectful in the long term not to throw his dirty laundry in everyone's face.
While he was in his MLC he constantly and nastily criticized my family and friends to me, or avoided them, so not exposing has made it so much easier for a loving relationship between them to be reestablished.
Also, perhaps most importantly, although my children had to put up with spew, absenteeism and neglect for the MLC years, they never had to deal with the knowledge of their father's infidelity. Research indicates that the daughters of MLC men often become OW in adulthood in an unconscious bid to redress the wrongs they were powerless to change as children--no matter how much they hated their father's affair at the time. I'm glad my daughter will never have to know about that part of her father's life, unless later events in her life require me to explain to her about MLCs, and how they can happen to good people.
I'd have to agree with Eric, that there's a huge difference between exposing a regular affair and an MLC affair.
In my opinion, an affair is a SYMPTOM and an IMMEDIATE OBSTACLE. A critical piece of some over-arching life crisis that the wayward/walkaway/MLC spouse is going thru. It is, in my experience, the "tree come crashing thru the roof" (Penny Tupy), and it must be addressed FIRST, after only drug, alcohol or gambling addiction.
1. Address any drug, alcohol or gamlbing addiction.
2. Address the affair
(both of these are "separating the addict from the source of their addiction)
3. Begin to address the overall marital dysfunction, to hopefully heal and improve it and -- eventually -- fully reconcile, unencumbered by the influence of a third party.
I think there are two very distinct "camps" on this. You either see infidelity as an addiction, or you don't. Where you come down on this is going to lead you to two wildly disparate sets of advice. You can make distinctions between "exit affairs," and "MLC affairs," and "revenge affairs," etc., but it's still a great big tree come crashing thru your roof, and it's gotta be dealt with first, in my opinion.
Puppy
I agree that an affair is an addiction. However, the reason for the addiction is critical--is it because the person is addicted to affairs, or because their marriage is weak, or (in the case of an MLC) because they've become zombies in the wake of a critical event like the death of a loved one, and a new partner is only one of the addictions they've sampled in order to feel alive again? In the last case, addressing the affair will not lead to "beginning to address the overall marital dysfunction" UNTIL the depressed spouse is ready to recognize that s/he is running away from him/herself, and is able to begin dealing with his/her pain.
Also, I did let my H know that I was not willing to share him with someone else--I just didn't expose to the world. And, slowly, he realized he did have to make a choice.
Here's where my "tree" reference comes from:
Holes in the Roof
© Penny R. Tupy June 2004
I love houses. Always have. A favorite weekend recreation is to tour the semi annual parade of homes or to check out the newest open models in the upscale developments around the area. During my thirties I was an avid member of the National Trust for Historic Preservation; my fun reading was made up of publications such as "Early American Life" and "Preservation." I've lived in an old house, built at the turn of the last century, and in an historic house of a modern sort – built in the `40's with design elements which were decades ahead of their time. For several years I had a recreational decorating and design business. I helped restore a Victorian, once facing condemnation, to near museum quality standards. I've painted concrete floors to look like marble, designed my kitchen from the walls out, and made strategic suggestions for the structural elements of our current state of remodel. I love houses. And in fact, when I travel to other parts of the country I am far more likely to photograph the residential architecture than I am to record the family on vacation. (Much to the chagrin of my children in later years..)
So, what does this have to do with marriage? Well, I live in the upper Midwest where Mother Nature mesmerizes us with thunderstorms, floods, and tornadoes this time of year. Not long ago I watched a newscast about a house that was damaged when a tree came through the roof of a house in one of our many storms. (The man sleeping just under the spot where the tree entered the house was unharmed but definitely shaken!) It got me thinking about the correlation between marriage and houses.
A marriage is much like a house. When it's new, everything is well kept. It's clean. The roof is good, the plumbing works well, the floors are level and unscathed. But inevitably, over time, things begin to break down. If one owns an older or historic home there are always things which clamor for attention – similar to a marriage that's been neglected or damaged by thoughtless choices, independent living and outright harmful actions. A marriage in trouble is much like a house needing significant repair.
It could be that the plumbing needs to updated, the wiring changed from old glass fuses to code compliant breakers, the walls may be cracked and the floors might need to be shorn up to make them level again. A marriage may have issues and conflicts surrounding in-laws, money, sex, child rearing, hobbies, or even pets. Like a house that needs significant work, those things need to be addressed in small steps, with thoughtful planning and oodles of frustrating starts and stops.
But what happens when a storm sends a tree crashing through the roof? No matter what the state of the home prior to that event, all work needs to stop and energies must be redirected toward emergency repair. The tree needs to be carefully removed, the roof repaired and any other structural damage investigated and repaired before work can resume on the pre-existing conditions.
This is exactly the same dynamic that occurs in marriage when there is infidelity. The marriage may need serious repair work in and of itself. But once an affair sends a tree crashing through the sheltering structure of the relationship all efforts directed at the underlying problems take a back seat to the emergency measures brought about by the affair itself. There's no point in attempting to fix the cracked walls and outdated electricity in the marriage when there is a tree protruding into the bedroom and the inner structure is exposed to the elements.
The affair partner must be completely and permanently removed from the relationship in the same way the tree must be removed from the roof. It's a horribly difficult and painful process. Often the affair partner has been a long time friend of one or both spouses. The loss of the friendship and the betrayal that is felt is heart wrenching, no matter what leg of the triangle one is on. But a friendship that has intruded into the intimate structure of a marriage can no longer be considered a friendship. Boundaries have been breached, and there is no way to return to a state of innocence. None of the needed repair work to the marriage can begin until this step is complete. Intermittently ending and resuming contact with an affair partner creates the same kind of damage as picking the tree up off the roof and dropping it back on again – it creates larger holes and more damage.
Once the affair partner is no longer in the picture, the hard work of repair can begin. First and foremost the gaping holes left by the affair must be mended. Depending on the length of the affair and how far into the emotional bonding of the marriage the affair partner was allowed to intrude, repair work could be replacement of the entire roof or simply a minimal patch job. The longer the affair, with the marriage being exposed to the damage of wind and rain, the more repair will be needed. The holes left by infidelity are things such as damaged trust, resentment, the inevitable withdrawal felt by the straying spouse when the affair ends, and stress on the underlying structure of the marriage.
Marriages rarely end in divorce due to the affair itself. But failure to repair the damage from the affair will almost without fail lead to complete destruction of the marriage. Marriages end because there the gaping holes remaining which continue to expose the relationship to more harm. Some couples can do the repair work themselves. These are the calmly methodical sorts who can read about the necessary measures and implement them in without becoming bogged down in the emotional tug of war recovery always entails. For most couples, as with homeowners, hiring a professional is indispensable in making sure the repairs are done well and in a timely manner.
As the holes are patched, the shingles replaced, and the structure found to be intact attention can once again be turned to the problems which existed before the tree made its untimely entrance into the lives of the homeowners. Those issues and conflicts may have become larger or more serious because of the damaged caused either directly or indirectly by the crisis of the storm – that's the nature of destructive events; they have far reaching consequences. Time, patience, persistence, and good professional help can make all the difference in repairing a storm damaged home or healing a marriage torn apart by an affair.
Wishing you clear skies…
Penny
I agree that an affair is an addiction. However, the reason for the addiction is critical--is it because the person is addicted to affairs, or because their marriage is weak, or (in the case of an MLC) because they've become zombies in the wake of a critical event like the death of a loved one, and a new partner is only one of the addictions they've sampled in order to feel alive again? In the last case, addressing the affair will not lead to "beginning to address the overall marital dysfunction" UNTIL the depressed spouse is ready to recognize that s/he is running away from him/herself, and is able to begin dealing with his/her pain.
If that's the timeline (multiple addictive behaviors, infidelity is only one of them, and some "life crisis" came first), then I agree. It's also true sometimes, however, that thru "re-writing of marital history," a cheating spouse will pre-date their affair and claim that "Oh, I've been unhappy for a long time now," or "I emotionally divorced you a long time ago, so it's not really cheating," etc.
Puppy
That's an excellent analogy, and well written. However, the same sort of thing could be said about the MLCer. Because of damage done to him as a child/teen, his own house is built under a tree with an inadequate root system. It is inevitable that some storm is going to send that tree crashing down on his house, however fine his house may look. The crash is inevitable; it's only a matter of the perfect storm coming along to cause it. And in the end it will be worthwhile for him to rebuild his personal house, because he will do so in conditions which will allow it to thrive, and truly allow it to be the fine house it only looked like before. This time it will be built properly, with no damaged tree looming over it.
However you wish to express it, the MLCer has a time bomb in him that must explode at some point. And it's only after having dealt with his personal crisis that he will be able to start healing his marriage.
That's an interesting take, Cyrena. I guess I choose to take a less fatalistic approach.
Puppy
Hi Hope - not sure if you remember me from back in the day, circa 2006, my screenname was fandgmom. I just started posting again last week.
I'm very happy to hear that things are going well in your life!! Congratulations on the move!
Take care.
If that's the timeline (multiple addictive behaviors, infidelity is only one of them, and some "life crisis" came first), then I agree. It's also true sometimes, however, that thru "re-writing of marital history," a cheating spouse will pre-date their affair and claim that "Oh, I've been unhappy for a long time now," or "I emotionally divorced you a long time ago, so it's not really cheating," etc.
Puppy
I agree with you--this is the all-important distinction. If only it were always easy to see in real life!
Great question and great points on both sides of the debate.
Unfortunately in most cases the discovery of the affair is the first sign that the LBS notices and therefore they would not be able to identify that the wayward spouse is MLC or not. So ultimately, I think that exposure is warranted if the weyward spouse does not stop the affair.
When I found out about my W's affair I exposed immediately in the form of an email to all her soroity sisters whom she was with on an annual reunion weekend at the beach when she met the OM. I felt since they sat by and watched her engage in this behavior they should certainly know what happened and I was shocked when they ran to her defense.
It was 3 or 4 months later that I started to suspect MLC.
Brandnew,
I knew NOTHING about my Hs EA/PA until he told me. He said he couldn't handle the guilt anymore. Said he loved her. I convinced him right off that he needed to break it off with her and stay with me. He swore he would never see her again, but kept communicating via text/calling. I freaked out - but he said he would not stop. After 2 weeks - he said he needed space and moved in with a friend. All of our friends and family found out because I had a total panic attack/breakdown. Everyone knows. This is hard now that I realize the reason for the EA/PA is a MLC and I am standing by my marriage. My family and friends think I am insane. That is very hard to deal with. But they are coming around to supporting what I want and what is important to me. The ones who don't, I have distanced myself from.
Our Ds (12 and 10) know everything. We both felt it was important to tell them the truth because my husbands mom had an affair when he was young and it has turned into a big family crisis now that all of the children are adults - some knew and some didn't until now. Secrets manifest and become horrible over time. But that is just our experience and we hope that telling our girls the truth will avoid the same issues my Hs family is going through now as adults.
We sit down with our girls one at a time and talk to them about what they are feeling and that is thier chance to ask questions...some that we just can't answer (like, are you getting a divorce?) but we are ALWAYS honest with them. This has really seemed to help and considering everything, they are doing okay. But my husband and I have always gotten along and never fight, so our girls feel comfortable telling their dad how they feel.
As others have said above...no one does it the same and there isn't a right way or a wrong way. my only advice is to do what you feel is right, not what you think everyone else would do.
I have to make this short and sweet as I just found out I have to pick up the kids early from school today...Blech!
I can only write from experience.
I tried to read every single book about MLC that I could find. Somewhere there is a thread that Snodderly had listed some really great books.
I know that when I was acting like the B*tch from hell, and trying to control my Husband's actions, contacting OW, letting everyone know about how my Husband was carrying on, and forsaking his marriage vows, nothing seemed to change.
I contacted the OW's Husband, I snooped, I did everything I could to expose my Husband's affair.
I also had no clue about MLC or what it was.
I learned very quickly that everything I was doing was totally arse backwards.
I sought IC and came here to seek wisdom and help.
I set boundaries and tried to detach from the insanity.
I was also a slow learner and it took me a good 18 months post bomb to really learn the art of detaching.
The advice I have to offer is from my experience and from what I have learned since my Husband came home.
He has shared things with me since he has been home that only confirms some of the good things I learned here.
Whether or not MLC is the problem boundaries are so important. They are for you, not WAS.
I learned how to turn off my phone and stop worrying that I would miss his calls.
If he was rude to me and started one of his spewfest's I would let him know that he could call me back later when he had calmed down, and I would turn off my phone.
I don't think that there is anyway to "fix" a MLC or make it end sooner, BUT I do think we can prolong it if we badger them and harass them and keep wiping the s*it in their faces.
Better run, or I will be late,
Blessings
BND
FandG,
Yes I remember you!!
How are things?
Hi
Things are...eh. If you have time, see my thread under JenniferA.
I know that when I was acting like the B*tch from hell, and trying to control my Husband's actions, contacting OW, letting everyone know about how my Husband was carrying on, and forsaking his marriage vows, nothing seemed to change.
Of course not!! Who's advocating being a b*tch/b*stard from hell?
Exposure, properly done, should be calm, controlled, business-like, and (like spanking), NOT from a position of anger.
BND, thank you for sharing your own experience. It's obviously that it's had a strong influence on your position on this sensitive topic.
Puppy
You can make distinctions between "exit affairs," and "MLC affairs," and "revenge affairs,"
How are you diferentiating between these affairs?
When some one comes on one of the DB boards,
how are the mentors deciding which type of affair
the LBS is experiencing?
Is there any guidance that you have an a,b,or c affair?
You can make distinctions between "exit affairs," and "MLC affairs," and "revenge affairs,"
How are you diferentiating between these affairs?
When some one comes on one of the DB boards,
how are the mentors decisding which type of affair
the LBS is experiencing?
Is there any guidance that you have an a,b,or c affair?
Precisely my point, Lance -- I'm NOT. (differentiating) Cyrena was. They are ALL huge tree limbs, come-a-crashing thru the marital roof, and I was
disagreeing with the distinction.
Puppy
Well it does sound like that is the problem then in a nutshell.
I would say that on the MLC board all affairs are not treated differently. They are all treated as MLC affairs.
I would guess you are telling me that the same would apply for the infidelity board also, no one is thinking that there are different types of affairs.
I have never read anything like that before.
I am gathering that neither have you.
Well it does sound like that is the problem then in a nutshell.
I would say that on the MLC board all affairs are not treated differently. They are all treated as MLC affairs.
I would guess you are telling me that the same would apply for the infidelity board also, no one is thinking that there are different types of affairs.
I have never read anything like that before.
I am gathering that neither have you.
Sorry, but I'm not following you.
I'm saying that all affairs should be treated as a SYMPTOM and as an IMMEDIATE OBSTACLE to marital reconciliation. Not classified into certain types that supposedly require a more passive approach.
Clearer?
Puppy
Puppy...I do believe there is a distinction between an MLC affair and a straightforward affair.
MLC affair, in my experience, is a way to boost up the rock bottom confidence and a mechanism for escape in the alien land. We are so numb and disengaged from everything around us. We see the OM/OW as a "friend." Whereas a straightforward, non-MLC affair is done for purely selfish reasons which are the addicting behaviors...the need for more dopamine becomes more "urgent". Which is why I think busting this type of affair usually works.
Mind you, I am not minimizing the effect of an affair (EA or PA) on the LBS in any way at all. However, affair exposure WILL not work for the MLC spouse.
Whereas a straightforward, non-MLC affair is done for purely selfish reasons which are the addicting behaviors...
Oh, I think you'd get a LOT of "beg-to-differ" opinions on that one if you posted it to FWASs, Wonka, lol. That's not ME talking, that's every former wayward I've ever spoken to or posted with. They ALL have "good reasons" (and many ARE legitimate, altho not excusing); none of them see their own situation as "selfish." Some potent mix of marital neglect, resentment, entitlement, possibly some abuse, and a little old fashioned ATTENTION from the opposite sex, and --WHAM-O!! Conflagration.
As I've posted on here before, I think that's part of the issue I have with the whole classification of affairs into "MCL affairs" and "regular" affairs. MLCers like to report how crazy their wayward spouse is acting (and they are), how LITTLE SENSE they are making (and they're not), and how IRRATIONAL and even RECKLESS they are being (and they are) . . . as opposed to . . .
what? Explanable affairs? Justifiable ones? Rational ones?
It's like the "not-guilty of murder, by reason of insanity" distinction. I mean, what SANE person decides to KILL another human being???
Puppy
I think part of the problem is that a person who has not witnessed an MLC happening has no idea what it's like.
Our marriage was progressing along, not perfectly, but with a lot of love and happiness, and then, BAM, a tree fell on the house. But it wasn't an affair, it was the news that my MIL was on life support, now brain dead, and needed all the family there to agree to let her go.
My H flew to the country where she was, she was unplugged, and ... my H changed instantaneously. He was unable to make up his mind to come home until his father reminded him he had a family to get back to. He returned, but not the same loving, playful father. He ignored or yelled at the kids, and complained he'd be too old to enjoy himself when they left home. He started making any excuse to be away on business trips. He'd go to bed early and lay there staring with dead eyes. He refused to talk to me about anything, and if I got upset he'd do passive-aggressive tactics that made me look bad. Soon EVERYTHING made him angry (and nothing was ever his fault). He started drinking more. He declared he'd always wanted sportscars, motorcycles, hip clothes, etc etc.
It was 2 years after his M died that he met the OW, and although she then became the focus of all his attention, she wasn't the real problem to working on the marriage. His MLC depression needed to be addressed before he could even care that he had a marriage.
I truly believe there is a difference between such an MLC affair and the exit affairs, etc, that Puppy listed. But until you've seen someone literally change before your eyes like that, it would be impossible to credit.
In my case my H moved in with ow 2 weeks and 2 days after he re-met at her father's funeral home viewing. He had dated her in high school 40 years ago.
Exposure would have done nothing because it was already out there plain for the world to see. He left us and moved in with her and he didn't care who knew it.
When I found this site I came straight to the MLC section because I had determined during my research that that was what my H was going through. It was the only thing that explained his irrational behavior which was so opposite of who he had always been.
When I had heard the phrase that he was aboard the mothership, it fit perfectly.
That's entirely possible, Cyrena (and I'm very sorry for your pain). Unfortunately, most of the authors and researchers who classify the different types of affairs -- like Lusterman -- don't even really ADDRESS the whole "what to do about it" question.
Puppy
I'm saying that all affairs should be treated as a SYMPTOM and as an IMMEDIATE OBSTACLE to marital reconciliation.
While I agree that the affair is an obstacle, in MLC it is only a symptom and the PILL to cure the disease may not be exposure.
I think since we all seem to be giving advice on this subject we need to continue to discuss this to at least understand all the points of view.
In my case my H moved in with ow 2 weeks and 2 days after he re-met at her father's funeral home viewing. He had dated her in high school 40 years ago.
Exposure would have done nothing because it was already out there plain for the world to see. He left us and moved in with her and he didn't care who knew it.
When I found this site I came straight to the MLC section because I had determined during my research that that was what my H was going through. It was the only thing that explained his irrational behavior which was so opposite of who he had always been.
When I had heard the phrase that he was aboard the mothership, it fit perfectly.
There's definitely something that happens, physiologically, to people when they become involved with someone else. Just Google "love lust infatuation brain PEA addiction" (or some combination thereof) sometime, and do some reading on PEAs and how incredibly and powerfully ADDICTIVE their high is. The PEA-flushed brain even LOOKS DIFFERENT ON CAT SCANS!
There are chemical/physiological reasons behind all of the "fog" and "alien" and such we all observe and write about on these forums.
Puppy
That's entirely possible, Cyrena (and I'm very sorry for your pain). Unfortunately, most of the authors and researchers who classify the different types of affairs -- like Lusterman -- don't even really ADDRESS the whole "what to do about it" question.
Puppy
Part of what drew me to this site is that Michelle W-D does classify an MLC affair as being in a class of its own, as well as offering advice for how to handle it.
Yeah, I know.
p 259 It's very important that you give your husband space. He needs time to think, feel, and experiment, even if part of his experimentation involves another woman. If you start making demands right away, you will probably lose him.
That's it right there... She says "focus on yourself"
She doesn't say "MLC AFFAIR or NON-MLC affair" though... She says experiment with another woman. What can I say -- I strongly disagree with that. I think it's harmful to the betrayed spouse's self-esteem, and downright emasculating to most men. I've seen very, VERY few who can pull that off for any length of time, without real harm to their own emotional (and even physical) health.
Puppy
But the guys, like Jack 3 Beans, who can pull it off with compassion for what their wives are going through and a determination to strengthen their marriages with the women they married--my God they're strong and sexy!!!
I exposed H's affair, and I believe that had I not found out and done so that his plan with ow would have happened. The day I called ows H and told him he talked to his w that night and was totally surprised to learn that she had rented an apartment and was moving out in less than a week.
I believe their plan was to let the dust settle and then move in together. They didn't want to go from me and ows H to being public together due to all of our mutual friends. Imagine that! scruples? lol
I also believe that I prolonged any return of H because I exposed him. He was angry angry angry and I felt his hatred of me.
The only thing I wish I had done different was after I exposed, and then back off and detach, live my life and let him simmer without affecting me so much as I allowed.
It's taken years to get back this far.
Cyrena,
MLC affairs are sooo different.
It is one thing to have a one night stand with someone and then realize it was a big mistake.
I even get the office fling thing.
Things happen, it doesn't make it right, but I get it.
The difference is with MLC the MLC'er is so screwed up mentally, they truly believe they are in love, and just like a wayward teen they feel they have to follow their heart.
They have no regard for who they hurt or what the consequences are. MLC is a mental illness.
With that being said, having an affair is not OK for anyone, regardless of their mental health.
Boundaries have to be enforced and the LBS has to protect themself, financially and emotionally.
Cyrena,
Your H's situation is exactly like mine. My H's mother was on life support and he had to make the decision to take her off. Two years from that date, he had OW. It is amazing the similarities with these situations!
Cyrena,
MLC affairs are sooo different.
It is one thing to have a one night stand with someone and then realize it was a big mistake.
I even get the office fling thing.
Things happen, it doesn't make it right, but I get it.
The difference is with MLC the MLC'er is so screwed up mentally, they truly believe they are in love, and just like a wayward teen they feel they have to follow their heart.
They have no regard for who they hurt or what the consequences are. MLC is a mental illness.
With that being said, having an affair is not OK for anyone, regardless of their mental health.
Boundaries have to be enforced and the LBS has to protect themself, financially and emotionally.
Hi ... I'm gonna throw my two cents in here ... although I'm no infidelity or MLC expert.
Even non-MLCers believe they are in love and some believe they have to "follow their hearts" too. In both cases they are symptoms not the real problem.
The difference is WHAT they are symptoms OF, IMO.
A "regular affair" (and yes I shudder at that term but am using it for lack of a better one right now) seems to be a symptom of problems in marriage, immaturity, boredom, etc.
An "MLC affair" is a symptom of a crisis/illness within the individual which began in childhood and is now manifesting itself due to a stressor/trigger in the MLCer's life. They are running from themselves because of the extreme pain they experience if they attempt to deal with their issues. They can NOT work on the marriage, because even though it wasn't likely perfect, it really isn't the problem. Until they actually deal with their issues it is impossible to move forward. They cycle in and out if they try. Yes, they do need to be free of the A in order to face their issues, but unfortunately their readiness to do so happens on their timeline. You might be successful in busting the A even if it's MLC, but if the timing is wrong, if it's done before the MLCer is ready and willing to face their demons (and this isn't a timeframe, it's relative to the individual) you end up with an interupted MLC and a high likelyhood that it will repeat. They NEED to face their demons. We just CAN'T make them unfortunately.
JMHO,
PEI
I think that during our spouse's MLC we have to focus on ourselves, and keeping our family going. We have no way really of knowing what will prolong either the affair, or the crisis itself. What is important is how we behave, grow and develop as human beings during a period of intense suffering. It can make us or break us, and sometimes seems to be doing both.
Behaving as well as we can, establishing clear boundaries, and being as kind as we can(in my case not always very kind) After all they may well not come out of the crisis ever, and even if they do, may not want to re-connect with us. We have our lives to lead regardless.
The occasional glimpses of sanity I have seen in my husband over the past few years confirm that in my case certainly, the crisis was going to play out in its own time, and is still very much on-going. Sometimes he can explain bits of it, from his perspective, and it makes no sense to me. The person that we really are is not apparent to the MLC spouse. We are, or seem to be, a symbol of all that they dislike and is making them unhappy in their eyes.
So do what you feel is right and decent, and try not to worry about the effect on the WAS. Most of us focus far too much on them, and not nearly enough on taking care of ourselves. Eventually I believe the truth of all situations emerges anyway.
Puppy, Oh, I think you'd get a LOT of "beg-to-differ" opinions on that one if you posted it to FWASs, Wonka, lol.
Therein lies the problem. They are not MLCers nor have walked the MLC path.
Some potent mix of marital neglect, resentment, entitlement, possibly some abuse, and a little old fashioned ATTENTION from the opposite sex, and --WHAM-O!! Conflagration.
This is the general gist of how affairs emerge. Read on.
As I've posted on here before, I think that's part of the issue I have with the whole classification of affairs into "MCL affairs" and "regular" affairs. MLCers like to report how crazy their wayward spouse is acting (and they are), how LITTLE SENSE they are making (and they're not), and how IRRATIONAL and even RECKLESS they are being (and they are) . . . as opposed to . . . what? Explanable affairs? Justifiable ones? Rational ones?
You are coming from the point of view with the lens as a LBS with a W who had an affair. Mrs. Puppy did not have the universal vacant, dead-eyes appearance of an MLCer. Hence the
distinction between a straightforward affair and MLC affair. To me, a person with a straightforward affair has built up a ton of resentment and some anger with the myth perpetuated by the entertainment industry which shows marraige as the "happily ever after." Then they get hit with snot-wiping, butt-wiping, laundry, dirty dishes, kids, bills and a spouse who has, oh my goodness, flaws! These "simple" straightforward affairs are a means of escape.
Whereas the MLCer has encountered deep, profound trauma in their lives that prompted the alien to invade and capture their personality to a degree that the LBSes do not recognize them at all. Even some family members may notice the change...as evident by the wonderful (and very recent) posting by Vulcanized about her BIL.
what SANE person decides to KILL another human being???
Precisely. The MLCer is not a sane person.
Just Google "love lust infatuation brain PEA addiction" (or some combination thereof) sometime, and do some reading on PEAs and how incredibly and powerfully ADDICTIVE their high is.
This is what would be considered a "straightforward affair." Try Googling MLC. You'd be surprised.
She doesn't say "MLC AFFAIR or NON-MLC affair" though... She says experiment with another woman. What can I say -- I strongly disagree with that. I think it's harmful to the betrayed spouse's self-esteem, and downright emasculating to most men. I've seen very, VERY few who can pull that off for any length of time, without real harm to their own emotional (and even physical) health.
MWD is a MT/FT who specializes in affairs. I'd bet my house that her speciality isn't MLC. The book was written based on her observations over the years as a couples therapist where there is infidelity involved. However, there is a resource out there for MCLers. When I orginally came here for my XW's affair, I was in the Newcomer's section. Eventually, I looked over in the MLC threads and BAM! they were talking about stuff that I
went through myself. There is a MLC board much like this in the alt universe. Jim and Sue Convey (if my recollection is correct) co-authored a book on MLC since Jim was a reformed MLCer and they wanted to share their experiences with others.
In short: MLC is in a whole category by itself. Which is a problem for many DBers like yourself and Allen who operate from the lens of LBS with a straightforward affair. I see both of you gangbusting sometimes by urging DBers to take "this tack/approach" because it
worked in your sitches. And then you get puzzled why DBers in the MLC forum
elect not to take your advice (which I think is the smart thing to do).
Fellow DBers, Not all methods fit all sitches. It is not one size fits all. Treat each situation as an individualistic component within the context of your M. No two sitches are alike. So treat each with respect and compassion.
Great post Wonka!
Just some questions.
How do you know this?
Mrs. Puppy did not have the universal vacant, dead-eyes appearance of an MLCer. Hence the distinction between a straightforward affair and MLC affair.
Is this the only requirement for her not to have been in a MLC?
When I read the story it sounds like a MLC to me.
The timing of the affair busting was perfect for breaking it up and putting her into depression withdrawal stage.
Perfect boundaries.
But she was still in a MLC to me. A roller coaster of events.
Ups and downs, coming closer, distancing. Hormones out of wack.
A perfect storm. Don't know about the childhood issues.
Or the trigger event. But the actions seem just like a MLC.
The end result, also is something I question.
After the affair is busted, what happens then?
What is the end game?
Is that like the end game in the six stages of MLC?
I'll put in my two cents. My H had a "regular" affair (I realize there is no such thing) nearly 10 years ago. I found out, confronted, and we got through it. There were definitely issues in our marriage at the time and I knew we were becoming more and more distant. He was remorseful and took responsibility and I took blame for my part in not making the marriage as strong as it should have been. But there were definite warning signs if I had cared to look.
Now that H is in MLC, it is totally different. He literally wrote me the most heartbreakingly romantic email less than a month before deciding he's never been in love with me. I can honestly say there were not warning signs of MARITAL issues. Looking back, I definitely see some subtle MLC changes. He is a DIFFERENT person right now. He has the weight of the world on his shoulders and its obvious. I don't see the OW as competition (as I rightfully did previously). I personally find the OW kind of sad if she feels that having a R with my H right now is a healthy thing. I know he's not right and to a certain extent, HE knows he's not right.
Puppy, you seemed very opposed to the idea that an LBS can know about an affair and NOT have that affect their self-esteem. I am fairly sure my H has an OW and my self-esteem is just fine. Because I know that any R he is having is NOT healthy.
Puppy, you seemed very opposed to the idea that an LBS can know about an affair and NOT have that affect their self-esteem. I am fairly sure my H has an OW and my self-esteem is just fine. Because I know that any R he is having is NOT healthy.
Just posting what my experience and observation has been, Albuquerque. It is a rare bird, indeed, who can stand for more than 6 months or so without it affecting them in some profoundly negative ways.
That being said, you here on this MLC forum are not a representative sample. You are, by definition, some of the most steadfast, patient people I've encountered, and your wonderful support system for each other allows you, I think, stand for much longer periods of time.
I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying that average person can't do it for very long. Again, that's been my experience.
Puppy
Pup I'll say it again look how long you have been at it.
That is patience too!
Pup I'll say it again look how long you have been at it.
That is patience too!
We're talking specifically about patience in the face of infidelity. I exposed my wife's affair IMMEDIATELY, and filed for D after just two months (she ended her affair and we reconciled after three months). I'm afraid I'm hardly the poster child for patience!
Puppy
The difference is with MLC the MLC'er is so screwed up mentally, they truly believe they are in love, and just like a wayward teen they feel they have to follow their heart.
They have no regard for who they hurt or what the consequences are.
BND,
Probably 90%+ of the affairs that I follow report the same thing. "Fogged out," "alien," "this is NOT the person I married, etc."
I think the only valid distinction here is, is the MLC affair one in a SERIES of addictions, and did it happen after some specific, traumatic life event? Cuz other than that, I just don't see much difference in the presented behaviors.
Puppy
So why are you still hanging around?
Last I checked you were in separate house 9 months ago.
I think the only valid distinction here is, is the MLC affair one in a SERIES of addictions, and did it happen after some specific, traumatic life event? Cuz other than that, I just don't see much difference in the presented behaviors.
Puppy
I suspect that, once it's begun, one affair is much like another. The difference is that the affair is only one part of a recognizable series of stages that the MLCer goes through, and not the final one. Some MLCers don't include affairs among their addictions. Somewhere in the resources I read that even nuns & priests can have MLCs, even without spouses to react against.
One of the earliest MLC feelings my H later described was a desperate urge to run away. Jim Conroy similarly talks in his book about being overwhelmed by an intense desire to bolt to a desert island. The MLC journey to find inner healing involves a lot more than the affair--however, it's the affair which catches the most attention.
Somewhere in the resources I read that even nuns & priests can have MLCs, even without spouses to react against.
That's because it's not about us in the first place.
I suspect that, once it's begun, one affair is much like another. The difference is that the affair is only one part of a recognizable series of stages that the MLCer goes through, and not the final one. Some MLCers don't include affairs among their addictions. Somewhere in the resources I read that even nuns & priests can have MLCs, even without spouses to react against.
I agree, my mother went through a very recognizable crisis or mlc after my step-father passed away. Although at the time I wasn't familiar with the label of mlc, I could clearly see what was taking place.
She just could not deal with what had happened. She had most, if not all of the classic signs of a mlc except for a OM. Her OM was a slot machine.
So why are you still hanging around?
Last I checked you were in separate house 9 months ago.
I "hang around" to help others thru what I went thru. Is that a problem for you Lance? This is now the fourth or fifth rude commend you've made ot me, and I'm not quite sure where the hostility is coming from.
I'd really appreciate it if people would bother to know my sitch before they tried to diagnose my wife.
I'm bowing out, as there's no use in further hijacking BND's thread (my apologies, BND. I tried to keep it respectful). Way to much debate on here and in Infidelity forum, and not enough helping of the newbies who need it.
Peace,
Puppy
Puppy I am sorry you feel I am rude!
I have no hostility to you at all. I think you give excellent advice. However I have asked you questions and you continue to RUN away from them. What are you afraid of PUP?
Me? Or yourself?
Again you want to run away. Thats fine.
I am not here to be anyones friend, although I have many.
We are all here to do a job, to give support.
Obviously there is a difference of opinion on how to do that.
I would like to understand why.
But you don't want to do that.
OK.
Puppy,
I'm very sorry you're leaving. From the work I've seen you do, I've enormous respect for your compassion, wisdom, and humour. And, yes, patience with Newbies.
But I think it's a shame you feel there's too much debate here. I think what's being discussed is crucial to the whole question of why a spouse should stand for a person in MLC, and why they should try to cultivate compassion for them rather than writing them off as crazy. I have to confess, when I go to other forums and see the MLC-bunch written off as deluded and wrong-minded (and taking the wrong approach to dealing with affairs) I feel sorry that this place has become so oppositional. I was only trying to express that I feel there are cases where people should not leap immediately into affair-busting, but rather build up their strength, knowledge, support networks, etc, before deciding whether that is the best route to take. Because, clearly, instant "outing" does not work for everyone.
Cyrena,
No worries. I wasn't referring to you. I wish you well, and great success! You and will mostly agree to disagree, agreeably.
Peace,
Puppy
Lance, Great post Wonka!
Just some questions.
How do you know this?
Quote:
Mrs. Puppy did not have the universal vacant, dead-eyes appearance of an MLCer. Hence the distinction between a straightforward affair and MLC affair.Is this the only requirement for her not to have been in a MLC?
When I read the story it sounds like a MLC to me.
The timing of the affair busting was perfect for breaking it up and putting her into depression withdrawal stage.
Perfect boundaries.
But she was still in a MLC to me. A roller coaster of events.
Ups and downs, coming closer, distancing. Hormones out of wack.
A perfect storm. Don't know about the childhood issues.
Or the trigger event. But the actions seem just like a MLC.
The end result, also is something I question.
After the affair is busted, what happens then?
What is the end game?
Is that like the end game in the six stages of MLC?
Oh my...questions, questions. Let me try to address them one by one.
Is this the only requirement for her not to have been in a MLC? I am basing my information on Puppy's comments throughout the site here and there. I have not read up on his threads of his sitch. However, based on some comments around the site, it appears that Mrs. Puppy did not have the "lost puppy" look or affect that is the universal signpost of a MLCer. Nor do I see any indication of a trauma in Mrs. Puppy's case. And Puppy busted the affair in 3 months and they reconcilled shortly thereafter. The classic signposts and timeline does not mesh with MLC in Mrs. Puppy's case. It is only my perspective.
After the affair is busted, what happens then?
1) Reconcilation
2) Divorce
Whatever path that occurs after an affair ends (busted or MLCer "wakes up"), there's been a tremendous trial of pain, anger, betrayal, sadness left it its wake. Not for the faint of the heart.
What is the end game? Only you know the answer and it is an individualistic choice. Ultimately, the true end game per se is your own personal growth and accumulating knowledge and self-awareness about relationships in general from DBing. To me, that is success.
Puppy,
My Husband went through a series of traumatic events that I feel pushed him into MLC.
We moved across the country for a new job after he had been unemployed for about 6 months, his Father died, and we found out that one of the twins I was carrying had passed away.
On top of this we were doing construction on our home and we had his Mother living with us as well as taking care of our 8 kids.
This is enough for anyone to nut up.
With all of that being said, my Husband was one of the most straight edged people I had ever met.
Very active in our church, very family oriented, no drugs, drinking or infidelity.
He came from a family that seemed very normal until I began to find things out about his parents. His Mother would sulk and lay guilt trips on people if she didn't get her way. She was/is very manipulative and my H was never allowed to talk about "feelings".
When I "exposed" my Husband's infidelity nobody believed me. And I mean nobody. I snooped and find out way more information then I ever needed to know and basically had a complete breakdown over it.
Everyone thought that because my Husband was such a nice guy, that I was just exaggerating and making something out of nothing.
It wasn't until he actually loaded up the car and drove 3000 miles to begin a new life with his high school girlfriend that they started to see something was amiss.
He got fired from his job because he had become so entrenched with the EA and completely lost his focus.
He told so many people so many lies about me and our situation that I was constantly defending myself.
Once I began to understand about MLC and start to realize that this wasn't about me I could begin to actually have compassion for him.
There are so many things that he did and said that were very evil and traumatic, most are in the archives.
Albuquerque, He is a DIFFERENT person right now. He has the weight of the world on his shoulders and its obvious. I don't see the OW as competition (as I rightfully did previously). I personally find the OW kind of sad if she feels that having a R with my H right now is a healthy thing. I know he's not right and to a certain extent, HE knows he's not right.
The OW/OM/OP is not the competition in an MLC affair as in a "regular affair." MLCers see the OP as a "friend" in a twisted way. In my case, I saw the OW as my "best, new friend."
Whereas in a "regular affair", the OW/OM actively plans with the WAS to steal away from the LBS. Which is why "regular affair" OW/OMs pressure the WAS for a D.
Puppy, did it happen after some specific, traumatic life event?
Always happens 99.9% of the time for the MLCer. You'd find this interesting: My new gal is a former MLCer. I was surprised to hear her story. She exhibited the classic signs of MLC. Her grandfather died (she was practically raised by him since her own father owned a bakery store and was not around very much) years ago and she became "lost" and "vacant" and had an OW for almost a year! When my NG's MLC ended, she fell apart and flew down to her best friend's home and
collapsed into her arms sobbing. NG was in a lot of pain at that time and ended her MLC affair with the OW. Strange, twisted journey.
Way to much debate on here and in Infidelity forum, and not enough helping of the newbies who need it.
Man up, Puppy! Debates are welcome and fruitful where we can learn from each other's experiences. A lot of smart and articulate people in these parts! However, debating for debate's sake is not the way to...we all come here to learn from one another. I ain't afraid of a strong man or woman!
I can say if you tried to affair bust W's OM while she was in MLC during that three month period...she'd flushed right back into the EAC tunnel. And you'd wait a
loooooong time before Mrs. Puppy returned home. You said you are not one for much patience.
Lance and Puppy, Come on over to the WH for a beer summit. I am not talking about the White House. I am talking about the Wonka House!!
Come on over to the WH for a beer summit. I am not talking about the White House. I am talking about the Wonka House!!
Did someone say beer???
I am basing my information on Puppy's comments throughout the site here and there. I have not read up on his threads of his sitch. However, based on some comments around the site, it appears that Mrs. Puppy did not have the "lost puppy" look or affect that is the universal signpost of a MLCer. Nor do I see any indication of a trauma in Mrs. Puppy's case. And Puppy busted the affair in 3 months and they reconcilled shortly thereafter. The classic signposts and timeline does not mesh with MLC in Mrs. Puppy's case. It is only my perspective.
Wonka
Thank you very much for responding
I did read the PDT story and obviously I came to a different conclusion after reading it.
I can only go by what was written by him on these boards. And while I am sure what is stated above is true, there is more to the story.
PDT chooses not to discuss it so I will respect his wishes.
However the amount of documented success stories here is slim.
Now what I mean by the above statement is that although there are lots of great threads that explain everything up through the end of replay, not much is written about the stages afterwords. HeartBlessing gives great insight into it and I have spoken to her at length. I have been trying to find more information about the ending stages of MLC. Especially the breaking of withdrawal and acceptance stages.
BND sorry for the hijack, but all of this IS pertinent to MLC and whether to expose the affair or not.
MLC is 6 stages not just "replay".
Lance,
I also noticed (and regretted) how little information seemed to exist about the final stages. In retrospect, however, I think I can understand why. Withdrawal is so internalized that my H barely talked to me during it, and I think he couldn't really remember it well once his depression lifted.
Also, Acceptance probably looks more different in different people than the other stages, because this is when issues are finally being addressed. But these issues vary greatly.
In addition, in those last stages my H was cycling so fast and so dramatically that no plan, emotion, intention, etc, lasted long before it was replaced. In the space of 5 minutes he could say and do a bewildering number of contradictory things. Even into Acceptance he would have regular dips into thinking with his teenaged brain for several months. But he was also in withdrawal from the OW at the time, which no doubt added its own issues.
I don't think you're going to find a "script" for breaking withdrawal and acceptance in the same way you can for the earlier stages. All you can do as an LBS is take care of yourself so that you are prepared to deal with whatever happens.
Thank you all for this discussion of the last 3 stages........and thanks BND for hosting! Info about this seems really hard to come by, so your thoughts are very much appreciated!
Cyrena, your description of the frequency and duration of cycling during your H's Withdrawal and Acceptance really helps a lot. As you well know it is incredibly frustrating to watch the MLCer take steps backward in their journey out of the tunnel. It helps to hear examples of how this transit played out in others' lives. Thank you!
I may have missed this info on this or another thread, but Wonka, have you described what happened and what your thought processes were like when you went through Depression, Withdrawal, and Acceptance? If so, would you please kindly refer me to that post? If not, would you please consider sharing that info here?
GAG
In decide to expose the affair
ask your self why you are doing it
are you coming from a place where you want them to "wake up and end it?"
or
are you coming from a place of truth
if your motives are pure truth...you are exposing not to make them pay or to make them realize their mistake,
if you are exposing for you
for truth
and the end result isn't why you are exposing
then expose
if you are exposing to be "right" to "wake them up" "so that other people will know what a slimeball/slut the OP is" or any other reason...don't expose
you aren't doing it from a place of healing
you are playing "who is more righteous"
bnd, ellie has a thread in Surviving.
Lance and Puppy, Come on over to the WH for a beer summit. I am not talking about the White House. I am talking about the Wonka House!!
Wonka
I would be honored to attend the WH for a summit!
Let me know the time and date.
In the meantime
YOU and
everyone else are invited to Little Friday every Thursday night at 7PM. Sorry it is BYOB!
Here is the link, let us know if you want to go.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2033062&page=1
Thank you, Fig!
I agree with your whole post...especially that last line about who is more righteous. Brilliant!
In my humble opinion:
Um, yeah, it sucks to be cheated on. But concentrating on exposure.."intel" and letter writing and phone calls to people who really should not be in your marriage...doesn't it take away from the idea that an OP is a symptom and not the cause of your sucky marriage?
It is so much easier to blame an OP. Much harder to own up to your own part in the marriage problems and to work on improving youself.
I do not condone affairs and I think they are the most cowardly thing a person can do. However, having a cheating spouse does not give you carte blanche to become a complete biatch or ba$tard. It is as if people suddenly think that they can trash the spouse for every other thing they have done, and the spouse is supposed to hang his head and realize what a horrible person he is.
If only it were that easy.
If only we were all so perfect.
In decide to expose the affair
ask your self why you are doing it
are you coming from a place where you want them to "wake up and end it?"
or
are you coming from a place of truth
if your motives are pure truth...you are exposing not to make them pay or to make them realize their mistake,
if you are exposing for you
for truth
and the end result isn't why you are exposing
then expose
if you are exposing to be "right" to "wake them up" "so that other people will know what a slimeball/slut the OP is" or any other reason...don't expose
you aren't doing it from a place of healing
you are playing "who is more righteous"
cant you expose for truth and to take the clandestine "fun" out of it so they look at it through more realistic eyes?
GAG...will certainly come over to your thread and take a look at your questions.
I agree with your whole post...especially that last line about who is more righteous. Brilliant!
Um, yeah, it sucks to be cheated on. But concentrating on exposure.."intel" and letter writing and phone calls to people who really should not be in your marriage...doesn't it take away from the that an OP is a symptom and not the cause of your sucky marriage?
Isn't asking people for support? It's uncomfortable, but why not try to get people who you both respect support your marriage? As far as the sucky marriage - again, you don't have to tell us we have a part in a sucky marriage.
[i]When you have a cold or the flu - don't you do things to treat the symptoms of those illnesses? I don't say, if it weren't for this runny nose, I wouldn't have cold? No I know that the COLD is the reason for the runny nose, but I'm going to blow my nose and take meds to treat that symptom. It is so much easier to blame an OP. Much harder to own up to your own part in the marriage problems and to work on improving youself.
Again, you don't have to tell us! I do not condone affairs and I think they are the most cowardly thing a person can do. However, having a cheating spouse does not give you carte blanche to become a complete biatch or ba$tard. It is as if people suddenly think that they can trash the spouse for every other thing they have done, and the spouse is supposed to hang his head and realize what a horrible person he is.
I've not been a biatch - I've not only been respectful, I've been coached to NOT name call, NOT attack, NOT trash him. If only it were that easy.
If only we were all so perfect.
Who has said at any point this is easy OR that we are perfect? I
'm not 100% sure any of this is right or wrong. But what I don't like is being judged for doing what I think is right to save my marriage. If someone thought is was so wrong, why didn't they speak up day one, week one, or month one? Why is it only happening now?
I'm trying like hell to save my marriage. I love my H with every ounce of my being. He's crushed me. I describe it as feeling like my hearts been ripped out and dropped on the floor in front of me...I can see it beating but I can't reach it to put it back in and mend the damage. CRUSHED! and I guess the last thing I need is someone else telling my how much I had to do with my sucky marriage.
Thanks for taking the time to hear me out.
Respectfully,
LH
LH,
I don't know why you think this post was directed at YOU. It wasn't. Why are you so defensive?
As for your cold theory...
well, the approach I am coming from is that sure, you will blow your nose to treat that symptom, but you damn well better wash your hands or do the things you didn't do that allowed the virus in.
Look, I am not the enemy here, and I don't know why you responded in the way you did. I don't come from a place of attacking people. If the things I say sting a little, well, as we say here, you should probably examine why. If none of it pertained to you, why didn't you just shrug it off? Why personalize it?
Maybe I come off much harsher than I intend to. I know what I mean, and all I can do is tell you again that it is not my intention to hurt you or anyone else.
My post was a generalization of the many things/people I see here. I made a lot of mistakes and am just trying to point some things out so that others will hopefully learn quicker than I did.
Your pain is no greater than the pain any of us came here with. The thing is, all you can control in this is YOU. So if you don't want to talk about your part in this, how are you going to prevent getting to the same place once you are reconciled?
(see? Positive thinking!)
Hope this clears things up.
But what I don't like is being judged for doing what I think is right to save my marriage.
No one is judging you.
We don't even know you.
We only give opinions based on our own experience and that of those who came before us.
Some opinions differ on a lot of this.
Some people listen to advice some people don't and they have to find their way by doing twhat they think is right.
Experience is a great teacher and so is pain a great motivator.
We all understand the intensity of the pain because we all have been where you are LH.
All of us.
Expose or not expose. Do what you want. I can tell you if it's MLC you won't be getting anywhere but that is just IMHO.
What Fig and CNMN posted is great wisdom and you will be ready to hear it without
...nodding your head and saying "you don't have to tell us".
When you are ready to hear it. And that is not today.
I am not trying to tweak your nose.
While you are focused on your H and the affair you are still too emotionally bound by this tragedy in your marriage.
Thank you both for your replies. The reason I thought it was directed at me was it was posted DIRECTLY after I posted and in response to my letter I posted for someone else.
I'm certainly not suggesting that my pain is any greater than anyone else's here. In fact, I read things that make me shudder. However, my pain is unique to me.
I, too, may be getting "read" as harsher than I intend my message. I'm trying to understand all sides. I've gotten great support and advice from Allen. I appreciate all that he's saying, but am not niave enough to believe that it's a "one size fits all approach"
I've gone the route of exposure. It's still fairly fresh (it's been a little over a month) and I'm getting some support in some places and very little in others (from people I would think would support me - H ex W and OW's H are NOT supportive (I find that sooooo odd)
I also went the path of telling him as long as he's continuing the A, he can't be here. It's progressed the D to lightening speed but I believe I HAD to do this because it was slowly killing me. And I don't mean that figuratively....I mean that literally. My inability to eat and sleep was severely effecting me (or is it affecting?) I'm still struggling with those two things but it's much less than when the A was being thrown in my face daily. I was also beginning to build walls of resentment, even hatred, toward my H that I was afraid would kill my desire to want to save the M.
So that is where I am now.....H not living here....A still being touted as alleged but stronger than ever....D started. So right, wrong or indifferent....I'm lying in the bed I made alone.
I just want to be clear that I am looking within myself. I've done the 180 and am continuing to live the changes I've made. I'm pretty sure I know where I went wrong. Unfortunately, the A happening didn't allow him to appreciate the 180 - it made him resent it.
So again, I'm sorry if I came across as defensive, but understandably - it was right after my post. I'm open to apposing opinions to decide what is best for my situation.
Re-read my last statement - the last thing I need is someone telling me how much I had to do with my sucky marriage.
That does sound like I'm not taking ownership - but I want to be clear that I AM taking ownership of my part - but that doesn't give someone carte blanche to have an A either. I guess that's what I'm saying.
LH,
No one is suggesting that it is OK to have an affair. Ever.
I don't think that anyone deserves it, regardless of circumstance. I don't know that you understand this to be my stance, so I am just putting it out there.
I am very sorry for your pain. It does get better, honest.
The one thing that I have to offer is to never do something you are not ready to do, or not wanting to do. (i.e. be the one to file). If you don't want a divorce, you should let your H be the one to do it. In the meantime, however, protect yourself financially.
You are not alone, LH. There are so many great people here that will give up their time to offer you support/guidance.
Let them.
LH
Good advice up there ^^^^ from CMNM.
This is not about your tactics to get your H back any longer.
It is about you.
And how to survive this. How to save you and
...maybe your marriage.
If you don't want a D...
Then don't.
What do you risk?
Your pride?
Your dignity?
Your self respect?
Those are things for you to find in yourself not in response to your H.
That is the journey we focus on here.
So.
A question.
What are you prepared to do for your M if you are not assured it will be saved?
If your H continues his A and his denial of you?
What are you prepared to do to save yourself?
This tragedy we all share can also be the greatest gift you may ever understand in your life.
It is all up to you.
If you don't want a D...
Then don't.
He was pushing for a disillusionment - he had an attorney already and was copying him on the email. I really felt that if I didn't go this this route, the quickie "lets agree to disagree" type of D would happen and before I knew I'd have no chance. He is doing everything he can to make sure to pay as little as he possibly can in all of this. I really felt I needed to go this route to protect myself and my S financial well being. I know him, I know how he thinks and he twists and manipulates to not have to pay what he should (he did it to his ex and) she had nearly had to file bankruptcy, then he came to her rescue and looked like a hero. But he's been sticking it to her for years.
What do you risk?
Your pride?
Your dignity?
Your self respect?
Those are things for you to find in yourself not in response to your H.
It's funny you say that because one of my issues was that I was so independent that I never defined myself by anyone but me. It really is a downfall of mine.
That is the journey we focus on here.
So.
A question.
What are you prepared to do for your M if you are not assured it will be saved?
I'm not assured it will be saved - I know this - but what I'm doing now for my M is working to create a home that is safe and secure for my S and I.
If your H continues his A and his denial of you?
Be the best mom I can be. Do everything I can to make certain this doesn't negatively effect him.
What are you prepared to do to save yourself?
I have a really, really go therapist. I've been going to her for months and she is helping tremendously. I'm focusing on my S. I'm working out, signed up to volunteer, reconnecting with friends and family.
This tragedy we all share can also be the greatest gift you may ever understand in your life.
It is all up to you.
I'm trying - I really am - my thoughts are consumed with this - I'm still trying to figure out how to not let my mind go there constantly. I used my therapists suggestion today and actually said STOP out loud. It works for about 3-4 seconds.
I hope I don't sound like I'm making excuses - I feel like that's how its coming out. I really do want to heal, for my S, for my health - physical and emotional.
(((LH)))
I truly am sorry you have found yourself here, and based on the date you signed up to post you haven't been at this for very long.
Before I started posting I lurked for several months. I figured that my Husband would come to his senses soon enough and there was no point in starting a thread.
My Husband's MLC took a long time.
There were days when I was so done with "standing" that I just was ready to file for a Divorce myself to stop the pain.
I learned to give myself a time out. I sought therapy. I vented here. I read books. I started knitting again. Anything for a distraction.
I tried really hard to be a good Mother to my kids and not ever bad mouth their Dad. That was the hardest part. When they would cry for him and not being able to say "sorry daddy can't be here as he is off with another woman who is more important then his family".
LH I had a complete breakdown over this. I lost too much weight. I didn't sleep. I was obsessed. I was totally alone after the exposure because nobody believed me.
One of the best things you can do for yourself is to work on your own issues and to learn how to forgive regardless if he comes back or not.
If you can step back a little bit....
What are some of the things he used to complain about during the marriage?
How valid were his complaints?
My Husband had a laundry list of things, and some of the things he complained about were true. I worked with my therapist to go through the list.
I tried to stop focusing on him and start working on me.
There really are alot of people in this forum who can offer wonderful tips and give advice, so please keep asking questions.
We are all here for you.
Blessings,
BND
BND, I have read a lot of your threads in the past. They gave me some hope for the future at such a low time in my life. Thanks for posting again. I am looking forward to reading your thoughts and reflections of your H's MLC and the transition from almost divorced to reconciled. There is no question in my mind that my H has had a MLC. He appears to have made some progress over the past three months.
Cas
LH...I wasn't attacking you, nor do I think anyone else was...often times people are even posting at the same time so never think a post is in direct relation to you unless it is said
Affairs are never OK
but to rub someone's face in it isn't oK either (again...not sugesting you are doing this) I am merely saying the reason for exposure needs to be a sound one
not one to make them pay
to prove you are right
or wonderful for standing by them, ready to forgive
saving your marriage begins by saving yourself
if you don't save yourself, you are destined to repeat the pattern
what can you do, LH, to save yourself
so you are ready for any relationships (platonic or romantic) that come into your life
what are the blessings that you can find (I used to keep a list...some days it was that I woke up and remembered to do laundry so I had clean clothes)
the lists were important for me to remember that God continues to work in my life.
the blessings are abundant now
too many to list but I still try to count them
Hold My Heart................ For me gettng each day was a huge challenge.
I turned to prayer, and found songs that could put my feelings into words.
It helped....alot!
I was looking up some information in regards to exposure and common mistakes the hurt spouse often makes.
20 COMMON MISTAKES
Just finished the book "Infidelity" by Dr. Don-David Lusterman
This book has some good advice in it and takes you through the different types of affairs including MLC.
Their is a section on "life crisis" including MLC.
It deals with the secrecy, children, family and freinds, advice to the one in crisis.
I question some of what is written to the one in crisis.
I wonder how many people having an affair are going to read this book.
Much of the advice seems to be geared towards them.
Not that there is anything wrong with the advice that they are being given just whether they will take it or not.
The one thing that also seems absent from this book is the exposure theory,
that is put forth on other forums as a technique for breaking the affair.
Very little if anything is written on this subject.
I have another book on infidelity "Not just Friends" by Shirley Glass. up next.
Just flipping through it, I can not find anything on exposure either.
If anyone knows which books actually advocate exposing the affair that is what I would like to read.
Any advice on this would be appreciated.
Tupy is probably the only one I've seen on exposure and I haven't been able to find actual books written by her. There is an article and some You Tube interviews. I've been spending some time while the site's been down looking this up.
Now I'm faced with a situation that no one in my life wants me to fight for my marriage. My WH is closer than ever to OW. D is in progress.
I am a firm believer that everything happens for a reason. However, I sometimes question the reason. Right now I'm wondering why I was allowed to be exposed to exposure for 2 months before the step in. I couldn't have been the first. I've been doing a lot of soul searching not being able to log on here.
I just want to stop working on affair busting and work on me, my son and making sure our future is good.
Lovehurts,
It's not too late to try a different tactic.
Exposure didn't work for you.
Are you ready to try something else?
Lance,
Thanks
Lance,
Thanks
Given the new guidance by out feerless leader.
I think I am going to pursue other books other than those I was reading.
FTR, I couldn't find much support in the "Not Just Friends" book either.
But I will let that whole subject die.
Thanks BND!!!!
Now I'm faced with a situation that no one in my life wants me to fight for my marriage.
I'm not so sure about that? I bet I can name a few who do.
Your friends and family see you hurting, it is natural for them to want that to stop.
I just want to stop working on affair busting and work on me, my son and making sure our future is good.
I agree, work on what you have control over. Your situation is far from over.
In regards to reading his emails... you are correct. It can easily turn into an unhealthy obsession.
I know you've addressed this on another thread.
Work hard at stopping, you know what you know, and there isn't really anything more to gain from it.
Your imagination and assumptions will almost always make things worse as well.
Lance,
In my case, the exposure of my affair by my wife was effective to an extent. It blew the lid off the fantasy and secrecy and caused me to pause a bit and reflect on what I was doing.
The culling/reaping across the board of wise and guy posters brought me out...for a bit.
Love you too BND. How is Cali?
Doing awesome
Thanks for asking.
S16 came 3rd in his last XC State meet.
I am so in awe of the man he is becoming
This was the kid with all of the anger issues and problems.
The rest of the troop is amazing.
I am blessed!
Love
I just want to stop working on affair busting and work on me,
Then just start to work on YOU.
It really is that simple.
Oh...and I agree with trapt...it ain't over to the fat lady sings.
Eric
Lovehurts,
It's not too late to try a different tactic.
Exposure didn't work for you.
Are you ready to try something else?
I've started something else already. Earlier in the week I decided to end the 3rd party drop off for our S4 along with other things. I haven't been actively "exposing" for the last 6 weeks.
I'm going to start a new thread "turning over a new leaf" figure that's season and situation appropriate. Hoping I get some good advice on how to keep this up.
Now I'm faced with a situation that no one in my life wants me to fight for my marriage.
I'm not so sure about that? I bet I can name a few who do.
Your friends and family see you hurting, it is natural for them to want that to stop.
I just want to stop working on affair busting and work on me, my son and making sure our future is good.
I agree, work on what you have control over. Your situation is far from over.
Thank you, Trapt! I agree - it's only just begun!
Just saying a quick hello.
It's that time of the year again....22 days til Thanksgiving.
I just wanted to say that I know how hard the holiday season can be when you have a WAS.
Now is the time to start planning new traditions for yourself and your children.
Do something different, something you have always wanted to do but were never able to.
Try out a new recipe, or invite people over to celebrate.
P.S.
I just tried to edit my post and was not allowed to as the time supposedly had expired......5 seconds?
Is this something new?
You missed the purge : )
and subsequent removal of the edit function...to likely prevent the exchange of emails and then quickly editing out the info.
Oh boy...here we go again!
eh...
its has calmed down a bit.
: ) Happy upcoming Thankgiving BND, so what is YOUR new recipe?
Great advice for the holidays. WAS will miss the past great fun and memories.
Thanks
and subsequent removal of the edit function...to likely prevent the exchange of emails and then quickly editing out the info.
Jack why are you giving away trade secrets out here in the open.
BND great advice!
The holidays can be so difficult and sad. It is very important to make new memories and still have fun regardless of your situation.
If things continue as they are, I think I will be DBing my way through the usual in-law turkey day. Just in case, I have a backup plan...
rotissery chicken
almond green beans
my mom's double spice pumpkin pie
a yet to be determined silly kid movie
I'm all about keepin' it simple.
I LOVE sweet potato pie
I bake a few every year. I was wondering if anyone had any really good recipes with a little Southern twist that they would like to share with me
