I have been over in the NEWBIE section anf Lost For Words Suggested I bring my story over here.
I will repeat the backgound here:
The background for me is we have been married for 2.5 years together 4.5. This is the second marriage for both of us with no kids in either marriage. I am 44 she is 38. I left back in December after finding out she was having what I knew to be at least EA. Now is a PA and still going on. I am living 2 hours away with my parents. She is in the house.
I met W when she was about half done with her divorce. I had been divorced for about 6 years. There was a lot of baggage from her old marriage financially and emotionally.I Guess we had all the major stressors going on loss of job, divorce, money, and she went through a life threatening illness.
She didn't handle it well. She began drinking more ended up getting a DUI. While I was on a business trip she had gone out with a friend and got arrested for battery at a night club. I saw no improvement from her despite pleading with her to pull out of this nose dive. She was losing any sense of her identity. I was losing the woman I married and I responded with trying to control the sitch. Amidst all this chaos W informs me (not asks me) that her model friend is on the skids and losing her apt in LA and is coming to live with us. This girl is an alcoholic and abusing other substances but my W is the only place she can turn. It felt like this girl was her only connection to her former life which she was not willing to give up-the limelight, the attantion, the vanity. I was going nuts! My wife already had a problem with abusing alcohol and now I had an alcoholic living my house!
I was so angry at not being able to control all this crap. We had frequent and increasingly verbally abusive arguements then found all these texts on her phone from some guy and left about two weeks later. Dec. 09.
Since then I have been trying to heal. I don't want to be a party to another failed marriage and so I tried to do the hard work. She has a lot of anger still toward me and also is continuing the relationship with the OM.
I finally told her that I love her and I want to work on our marriage.
I am here to work on myself and wait.
Gritter
I forgot to mention. The PTSD is from childhood sexual abuse and she is under the care of Psychiatrist for this.
I am trying to manage this by following the advice of the posters that came up to help me from MLC. Very gratefull for the help. I sent this email to my W on 3/3/10.
I decided to take a different tact. A step toward no expectations for either of us. I wrote her this:
"This is all new territory for me and I am learning as I go so I hope you will be patient with me. I am trying to truly listen to you. Not only what you say but how you say it. We are both hurting I know. You sounded really purposeful today. I know I said I wasn't going to wait forever for you. I want to take that back. It's just that I miss you. I know you have to find YOU again.
I want you to know a few things that you can count on from me until then.
I love you.
I will wait for you.
I will listen
I will be happy
I will talk about anything you want to talk about
I will see you anytime you want to see me
I will bring [dog] to see you any time
I will excercise
I will work hard on my business
I will pray for me
I will pray for you
I will pray for us
I will fill my life with joy
I will miss not sharing my life with you
I will spend time with [dog]
I will heal my heart
I will be patient
I will have grace
I will have dignity
I will give you space
I will be ok
I will believe in you
I will trust you
I will commit to you
I will be peaceful
I WILL wait
for you.
This I promise you.
This is on your timing. All of it. I'll be the man loving you from a safe distance.
Let me know if you need anything. I'll be here."
She responded that it was an amazing note and that she is going through the toughest time in her life but that she needs to work on her.
I realize it was as much for me as for her because these are my marching orders. This is all stuff I will do. I felt a great release in saying it. I am not waiting for her to make a decision. She can engage me when SHE wants. No pressure. No expectation. I may need to set some boundaries but I will know when that needs to happen I think. Wheneverr I find myself focusing on some action or expectation from her.
Welcome to the board TG.....Take your time and get to know the folks here. The each offer something special if you let them and listen.
That's a big promise list Grit.
I realize it was as much for me as for her because these are my marching orders. This is all stuff I will do. I felt a great release in saying it. I am not waiting for her to make a decision. She can engage me when SHE wants. No pressure. No expectation. I may need to set some boundaries but I will know when that needs to happen I think. Wheneverr I find myself focusing on some action or expectation from her.
Man, I hope that is true. Cause that is an amazing attitude to have for just getting here. Yeah I know its been a month...you're just getting here.
She sent me and email out of the blue over the weekend saying she was thinking about me and our dog. That hasn't happened in a long time.
I am trying to live the word. It is hard.
I came up with a response to people when they ask my situation. Now that I have begun GALing I am getting asked about my sitch. People want to set me up or introduce women etc. Are we divorcing? This is what I say:
"My wife was abducted by aliens, they aren't the good aliens like in Cacoon or Close Encounters of the Third Kind. These are bad aliens. I am just waiting for them to drop her back off."
It breaks the tension and it makes feel better to describe it that way. It is pretty much the truth. People don't understand my decision to do what I wrote up top anyway. People don't get it.
So I am very happy to have this place and you people.
Grit
Today should be interesting. I might see her. After the email over the weekend I told her I had to come to town for business (we are living about 100 miles apart)and I needed to come by the house and pick up some things. All true and legit. Told her to call me if that was ok. She called last night we didn't talk very long. She wants me to call her today.
I am going to tell her she doesn't need to be there when I come get the stuff but dog will be with me if she wants to visit with him. MIL is living with her (since Jan) and I think is still pissed at me. I know also that she has met OM and is condoning that R I think.
I like what I read in a thread if I have to ASK her to do something it's pursuing if I just do it. It's not. So I asked her if it was alright to come to the house to get my stuff. Just to let her know I was going to do that and so I didn't get shot while there (JK)
Will keep you posted ....
MIL is living with her (since Jan) and I think is still pissed at me. I know also that she has met OM and is condoning that R I think.
so what's MIL's track record in relationships?
Been married to W's F for over 45 years. So pretty good. Not quite sure why she is appearing not to raise hell about the A. A little puzzling to me. She is somewhat of an enabler doesn't get tough with bad behavior.
I didn't see W today she asked if she could see me and dog another day. I told she didn't have to be there but she said she would like to see us. I had a long and pleasant talk with her. She asked what I did over the weekend which was great cause I got to share my GALing and told her I went to a party.
She lost her job and so is on cobra and is having trouble making ends meet and keeping the sessions with dr. and meds so I told her I would pay the health insurance premium. She was VERY grateful. Trying to be more of a friend and I don't ask about OM but she knows there will be no moving foward on anything until that is over.
I feel like this detaching no pressure stuff is working for me and I see her reaching out more to me too. She asked me to call her later after we hung up today.
I don't think I'll do that.
Grit
Mom's isn't the only enabler...
No offense.
I told her I would pay the health insurance premium.
There's nice.
And there is
nice at cost to youself.
Yes Jack I know. That's why I'm here and so now I recognize the behavior.
I am not living with W and don'y pay her anything. I have stopped my divorce proceedings since I decided to come here and work on myself. She is not threatening to file either. If she did with our sitch she could get some $ from the court most likely. Pretty much damn likely.
Also she was trying to wean herself off the meds and the therapy because she can't afford it. If we have a snowball's chance in hell she has to stay in therapy which she has been. I don't want money to be the issue she stops. So I did say I would pay her premium. I thought it was the right thing to do.
Is that enabling? Is that not detaching? Help me out here. If she's not taking the medicine her dr prescribes and not going to see her therapist but wants to but doesn't have the money and I am legally responsible to her for some kind of monetary settlement doesn't this just make sense in this sitch?
I appreciate all the guidance I get here and I try to dissect every move and conversation I have with her to make sure I'm following what I said I would do FOR ME.
Grit...that's a choice that you make for yourself.
In my sitch, since my W has always been on my health insurance and there's no additional cost to have her on it; I've never dropped her.
But I think was Jack was trying to tell you is that there is the rescuer mentality coming out in you. What happens next when she can't make her car payment? her rent? buy groceries? Will you buy all that for her as well? while she's with another man?
Besides the health insurance; the only other thing I pay for is car insurance. Other than that...the W has been on her own for 18 months.
TG-
Usually I would agree with Jack.....but in your case the mental issues may be a little bit more severe than depression. The childhood issues she does have may in the end only be treatable by a professional....and not something she will be able to deal with on her own.
What you do need to look at is the "why" you are paying the premium. Which I feel you have done......but I would beware the rescuer.
Yes I get it. I need you guys to challenge me and I appreciate it. MC I agree I am not going to pay for anything else. I know OM is paying for her phone. Another rescuer! Hah!
BTW I didn't call her like she asked me to yesterday. And I got no communication from her.
God this sucks...everyday is a struggle to stop myself from thinking about her. I wake up in the middle of the night and stay awake for a couple of hours until finally falling back to sleep. Had a dream last night I was talking to her about OM woke up and almost threw up.
Thank you guys for being here.
Oh...and if you DO pay for her health insurance, how can you be sure that she is even going to therapy and taking her meds?
When my W left out in 2008...she said that she was the happiest that she had ever been and didn't need therapy or meds anymore..
If you're paying for it...get the EOBs.
Oh, he already said he would pay for it. So...that is a done deal.
I was just poitning out the 'enabler' isn't limited to the mom.
It is also a part of the 'fixer' mentality.
I haven't really shared the details of what I am doing here with my parents (I'm living with them right now) And the past few days have been especially hard trying to be detached. I see now how that is the only way to be healthy. Getting caught up in the emotions of being involved and all the hoping and wishing does drive you crazy. Anyway my Dad expressed concern tonight.
Told him what I was doing and that I am still committed to my marriage but the focus is me. He of course asked the million dollar question. "How long are you going do this?" I said until I know I don't need to any more. I know that this is a tremendous opportunity. I have been through one marriage and I don't want to leave another one and lick my wounds for years. I want to push through this thing to the other side where ever that leads me. W may be there too. But may be not. On the other side is a healthy, happy man.
It felt good to tell my father that with conviction- that I was commited to this process. He didn't understand it fully. Questioned if she loved me why the A. Why would I want someone who did that to me. I said it wasn't about me. It was about her dealing with her pain. Not sure he understood that either but he did understand that he was not going to change my mind about it.
Have been really challenged lately, being able to articulate this in words has pulled me out of a little ditch I was in.
Jack, wanted to say if I am honest with myself I was doing a little rescuing, I couldn't help it. I see it now.
I will do better.
Grit..you cannot expect people to understand your sitch until they walk a mile in your shoes. Just have confidence in what you believe. You ultimately have to live with your decisions..not your parents or your friends. If things do not work out with your W...you will know when you have had enough. The important thing is to make sure that tomorrow YOU are in a better place than today...and the following day YOU are in a better place than the day before.
"When you have decided what you believe, what you feel must be done, have the courage to stand alone and be counted." (not sure who said this but I always liked it)
Thanks Lola. That hits it right on the head. My Dad again last night voiced concern and I looked him in the eye and said "I know that you love me and that you don't want to see me hurt. But you have to trust me on this. You have to trust this process, this journey I have decided to take and know that in the end I will make the best decision for myself and I will be a better man in the end."
I think the biggest virtues we have to carry with us through this process is courage, patience, and grace.
Today is a big day! I will report later ...
This is going to be long. I had a big day yesterday. I mentioned up thread my MIL is living with my W and has been for several months. I found out through W she has met OM and that really upset me and so after reading some other threads and borrowing some of the great wisdom I found there I decided to reach out to MIL and tell her how I felt. I met her yesterday in person. We talked for 1 1/2 hours. This is what we discussed.
Told her I was fighting for my marriage. W had told her nothing of this even though I've been doing this for a month not surprised.
Read her the letter W wrote me that I posted upthread. Said this is my W this is who she wants to be. But she isn't. Said she has not committed to our marriage one bit. Told her about drinking, drugs, carrying on relationships not friendly to our marriage, lifeboating (had to explain that)and now full blown affair. We dickered as to when affair started I assured I had evidence it began before I left and had been going on for some time. Clarified that EA is an infidelity too. She agreed finally.
She ranted a little about me leaving W twice. I explained that was the only consequence I could show W for her bad behvior. Silent agreement.
She ranted about me leaving W without $ for bills which MIL had to pay. Presented me with a list of bills totaling $1600. Told her I had given W money before and since I had left. W didn't tell her. Also said affair was going on at the time so my marriage was over and I didn't even know. I don't feel responsible for the bills. Told her as soon as W starts being responsible in the M I will resume my responsiblities in the M but not until. Told her I'm not interested in buying my marriage back.
I said it comes down to this. What makes a married person after hanging up with her husband who is on a business trip, hang up the phone and proceed to a club and drink until 5 a.m. and subsequently gets arrested? What goes through your head in that moment when you disregard everything you promised? No response.
I told her what was in th letter that I gave her that was sealed. In letter: Said I know you have met OM and shared his company. Said that it hurt me deeply to learn that. She said I don't blame you. She said it is not my house. I said you still have control over your presence with him. When you participate in this you enable it. You can leave the room. She said yes that's true. I said this man is a predator, not a romantic interest. He is attacking my marriage. He is taking advantage of a vulnerable marriage and a very emotionally unstable woman. I said any man that goes after another man's wife is lower than whale sh*t. She said I agree you should never interfere in a marriage. I said you can help me by not supporting this affair. I said I am your son in law and you are my MIL, don't disrespect me and don't disrespect my marrriage by interacting with this man. Silent agreement.
I don't think she had thought about it this way partly because W had been silent on the $ and my commitment to marriage post leaving.
Finally said you know where my heart is and you know my integrity. She said yes I do.
This was amazing for me to do. It helped me to get out some emotions, assert my integrity, and realize with great clarity that I will not live with bad behavior and non-commitment. I deserve better. I am worth so much more than what I have endured and until W comes to that conclusion then we do not have a marriage.
Told MIL that I will fight with all my courage for this M until she tells me she doesn't want it but I do not want my old marriage-that is dead. A new one, if any, will be a whole lot better for me.
Grit
I GOT THIS EMAIL FROM MY W THIS A.M.!!!!!
Truegritter
You have truly touched my heart by your letters and I know that it has been difficult for you to reach down deep within your heart to come forth with with such courage and strength. I do wish I had some of the qualities that you have; I guess that is one of the reasons I fell in love with you. I did not call lastnight, but not because I did not want to, but because I just needed to think and process my feelings. I realize that I am continuing to hurt you because of my fear, that is the last thing I want to do. I do not want to hurt you, I do not want to be hurt.
You are not to blame for all of my fears, anxieties, pain, or struggles. Yes, you leaving did make me it worse, but you are not to blame. I married you because of LOVE. That is the only reason. However, I did come with baggage and I think I may have opened some old wounds that you had from your marriage with (your ExW). Combined with our financial state we failed each other and did not meet up to even our own expectations. Expectations that we thought marriage should be based upon. I remember the rules we wrote down to follow and the talks we had about respect and how not treat one another. That all began to disappear with the break down of our communication. And drinking did not help either one of us communicate more effectively, but it did affect our state of mind. It helped me escape the daily stress of "what will tomorrow bring"? I was always hoping to wake with a miracle of some sort. Therefore it helped pass the time and place me in a state of numbness. And feeling numb to the pain and stress that we were experiencing seemed to help at the time.
I had never been through that kind of stress in my life. I wanted you to fix it, I thought you could. I did not know how or where to start. I was still processing the damage from (ExH)and my divorce. It all took a toll on me and I just felt like a wild animal locked in a cage. It brought a lot of frustration to the surface and I just could not find relief from the pressure. I can remeber asking you, "Will We Be Okay", "Is Everything Going To Eventually Be Okay"? You reply, "I Don't Know". I right then felt that you did not believe it would be and that you did not believe in me, our marriage, or yourself. I felt like my balloon of hope popped. I began to downward spiral and have feelings of deep depression. It brought forth fear that I had never felt and I was paralyzed.
All of this may or may not make any sense to you. We can talk about this later if you would like~ I do agree that going on a short trip may help my state of mind. I am still dealing with the house and work issues that are somewhat stressful. I do want you to know that drinking wine is not part of my daily routine any longer and I know that it was not healthy for many reasons.
Love,
W
I am dumbfounded! She did not give me any clue this was coming. Do I dare to hope? I am trying to be cautiously optimistic.
I told her we would talk when she is ready and that means when OM is out her life completely. Told her she could call me to talk then.
WTF is happening? Is this what is sounds like when someone comes out of MLC? I think she has been in MLC the 4.5 years I've known her. Now that she stopped drinking and her mother is with her all the pain came and now she has to deal with it. MIL is definitely for the M after our talk (see up thread)Is this a good thing?
I need to hear from you guys. Lostforwords? Jack? Marriedcrazy?
What's happening here?
What next?
Grit
WTF is happening? Is this what is sounds like when someone comes out of MLC? I think she has been in MLC the 4.5 years I've known her. Now that she stopped drinking and her mother is with her all the pain came and now she has to deal with it. MIL is definitely for the M after our talk (see up thread)Is this a good thing?
It is not a BAD thing.
You being with her for her entire MLC? 4.5 years...
I think/hope you are recreating your history a little.
Is this what is sounds like when someone comes out of MLC?
...
You are VERY hopeful and THAT will hurt you.
I do not believe that every MLC sounds the same when they come out of it.
I worry that you think this is over...
that I worry about.
We can control ourselves...letting your emtotions get the better of you, letting yourself get really really high, and then plummetting to new lows... that is a concern.
Did she reach out?
Seems like it...but is it the end?
Her end?
...
This trip is LONG. Very long, you put your hopes in mirages and you're not going to make it. Conserve yourself. Be open to possibilities...but conserve yourself.
TG-
You are still to attached. I am unsure if this is a good thing or not...more than likely another hill on the rollercoaster. When I started to read this post...I truly expected it to get very nasty (if she wrote this after your talk with MIL...).
Just being honest...I think your wife is a very sick woman. More so than a lot of the MLC'ers on here. That isn't to discredit what other people are going through, but more so because of the additional mental baggage that your wife has to deal with.
So a good sign?..Yes. Don't get your hopes or expectations up though. Continue to focus on you.
Don't communicate with MIL to much (some say not to at all). Remember that her daughter is hurting and she will do whatever it takes that seems to make your wife happy. That is what moms are for.
How is your dad?
TG --
I wouldn't get any hopes up or any expectations from this e-mail. She could just be using words...saying what she thinks you want to hear to keep you on the hook; not letting you get too far away.
How do you REALLY know that she's not drinking? Are you with her 24/7?
Remember...believe none of what they say and only half of what they do...
and, I agree with LFW, you're still attached...
I think you all are right. I am attached. I have my first appointment for IC tomorrow morning.
I won't be interacting with MIL. W mentioned she was going to go home with her mom and stay with her for a while which is in another state.
MC I get what your saying the other letter she wrote me that I posted upthread was written 3 weeks before she was arrested. Big words. No action.
Lost- Dad is cool. They see how I am doing much better than when I started. Starting to see what I am doing is good for me.
Thanks again guys.
Thanks for keeping me on the ground.
Up this a.m. getting ready to go to my IC appt. I have had a chance to reflect on what she said in email and in our conversation yesterday. I think I feel she is trying. I think I feel she has at least recognized her part in this and that it is not my fault she feels this way (depressed). I think she knows she has to do the work.
That is the good part. MC she has never really been purposefully manipulative. She has never deliberately played on my emotions. As a consequence of her choices yes. With disregard for them yes. But not as a means to an end.
I know that I can't let these little developments seem like the silver bullet.
She has a severe concern and pain about abandonment so I think my detachment is that razors edge we speak of. I will need help with this. This has opened up dialogue between us. She started with telling me how hurt she was. At first I was countering with my own POV. Then remembered not to do that. Just listened.
I guess I need help with this stage of our communication. What should engage in or not engage in. If she wants to start counseling she would go? She is in therapy for PTSD but she is in severe depression right now so that is just in maintenance mode.
I think I just anwered my own question. She has to deal with her depression. It is likely making her reach out to the "rescuer" I have to recognize those signs.
I can't feed into that. Supportive but detached. Right?
TG-
Supportive, but detached is a good path. I listened...a lot. At times I felt like I was being a fixer, but then it dawned on me that "fixing" is a verb that involves action. So by just listening, I wasn't fixing or rescuing because I wasn't taking steps to help her situation.
To be honest TG....I see the PTSD thing needing to be addressed prior to reconciling your relationship. In my amateur opinion, until she addresses those mental demons any relationship she tries to have will be a crutch to deal with the PTSD issue.
So let her focus on the PTSD therapy.....that really needs to come first. Be her friend through that process as much as possible with no expectations on your part. It will keep you detached, but be the friend she might need to listen.
It is cool that Dad is starting to see the results
Lost I agree about the PTSD. I saw IC today. Very knowledgeable about childhood sexual abuse and how it affects adult life. She pretty much told me the same things you guys did. Focus on myself not my marriage. Said interaction with W is ok but when it gets deep into R she said I might want to draw boundary especially until OM is out completely out.
Going to go every week for a while.
I found out today that one of W friends told her that God has something better in store for her. I am not it. I was good in the beginning when she needed me but now she is ready for something better. And God's going to bring it to her.
I have met the materialistic beotch and have spent a total of about 4 hours in her presence, 2 of which she was drunk as skunk at my house for thanksgiving last year and she dropping F bombs in front of her 3 year daughter. She married a man 25 years her senior (for money I think maybe ????) What a piece of sh*t! I am just venting! How the hell does she know me after 4 hours in my presence and I never even had a conversation with her.
So the end of today kinda sucked. I realized that this detachment stuff is what has to happen or you'll kill yourself. I mean I am getting it. It is sinking in. You live their pain with them if you don't detach and you'll be in the same place as them. PAIN! So you detach when you've had enough pain. But we human beings have an enormous capacity for pain.
I feel like John Coffey in the Green Mile. I tried to suck out the pain from her and now I'm full up with it. I got to spit it out. I'm spitting it out!
Awful tired now boss ...
You'll be fine man.
MLC friends are fair weather at best.
I can't feed into that. Supportive but detached. Right?
RIGHT!!
I've always been the ear that my W could lay all her sh!t on; because I always wanted to feel "safe" with me. But you have to be careful and make sure that you don't take what she says with too much weight. Obviously I don't either one of you; but I bet you have a pretty good BS detector in regards to your W. Trust it...better yet; just let her talk and DO NOT put weight into those words. My W could say things that I wanted to hear based on what I told her sister. You have to watch for actions my friend.
But you're starting to get it...in words anyway!! LOL!!
Actions my friend.
OH...Her enabling GF (EGF)...just ignore that crap. Jack is right; when she comes around she'll she just how much of a "friend" that girl will be later. Trust me!!
God Bless
TG-
MC has the "friend" issue nailed. My wife had tons of "friends" saying the house, kids, and I were the problem. That she was a party girl and we were just tying her down.
Guess what...as soon as she slowed down on the partying, etc...all those "friends" disappeared pretty damn quick. Not because she booted them, but because the didn't have some one to share in THEIR misery.
I like the John Coffey metaphor....that is a good one.
Hey I probably just F'd up but I had to this for ME. I won't withstand attacks on my character. especially cowardly ones. I wrote W's friend and copied W. below:
I have on at least two occasions seen communications from you which I would characterize as less than friendly to me and my marriage. I know that you are aware that (W) and I have had, and are continuing to have, difficulties in our marriage. On the first occasion sometime early last year you counseled my wife to leave me and look for a wealthy man, even offering to introduce her to such a man. Recently, you counseled her that I was not what she needed and that I had been what she need when she needed it, but my usefulness had run its course. I am paraphrasing what you wrote. How could you offer such advice with such limited knowledge of me or our marriage?
I do not characterize this a friendly behavior to our marriage. I can understand with my limited knowledge of your situation and history that I have learned from (W) that you might be inclined to give her such advice- lumping me in with all the other men you have known and the horrible pain it has caused you. Why would you wish that on (W)? I would hope that you do not measure a person’s character by the size of their bank account. That would be a misfortunate in either direction. After meeting and spending the limited amount of time with (your H) I believe his character transcends his finances.
I am at a loss that you feel qualified to judge my character based on our limited interaction. We have spent probably 4 hours in each other’s presence. Two of which you were highly intoxicated in front of your daughter at my house at Thanksgiving. My intention is not to offend you only to point out that I would not feel I know you well enough to know that this incident was indicative of your character. (woman's name), you know even less about me.
I will not stand for anyone to attack my character. I especially will not stand for it to be said to my wife. If you wish to do that I would hope that you would give me the courtesy to defend myself and base your opinion after you have an opportunity to know me personally. An opportunity that I welcome. I would hope that you continue to be a friend to (W) but please try to respect me and my marriage.
Sincerely,
Trugritter.
Ok I know still I'm attached ( I really am getting better.) but I was choking on this. It felt like it was for ME. And I feel better! I didn't get angry. Just stood up for my integrity and my character.
I thought I'd ask for forgiveness rather than permission. Waiting for my 2X4 ...
Wait no longer.
You've given this ding dong way too much of your time and headspace.
These exchanges with flakes such as this are pointless.
Your energy could be spent on far better things.
( I really am getting better.)
Right up until a 'friend' of hers attacks your character...
Look man...if a piece of shitt attacks your character...do you validate them by defending yourself? Or do you validate yourself by letting 'their' character speak for themself?
I know I f'd up
BUT...
I f-ing hate those buts. : )
I could do this
BUT I really cannot...
i hope it made you feel better because you probably just opened yourself up to a whole new set of attacks on your character.
Defending yourself, in rollercoaster land, is pointless....
I won't withstand attacks on my character. especially cowardly ones.
Are they true ?
Think about that first....
And an outright attack by you via email isn't hypocrisy?
Same sort of attack, and by your own admission, you don't know her that well.....
It just hurts YOU more....
Rise above petty True....
Hmmm...
Sending that email is far worse than ANYTHING you can say to your spouse right now....
A semi-sane friend in the ear of a whacked out MLC mind is like running through a nitroglycerin plant in a dump truck....
Let it go now.....just don't do it again....
I thought I'd ask for forgiveness rather than permission.
This actually bothers me...alot.
The statment is used when you know your doing something wrong.
You do this for you, for YOUR stated objectives...not to please any of us here. YOU, if you knew this was a bad idea to reach your stated objectives...then it was stupid.
We do not grant permission here, your fuckk ups hurt YOU not us, so our forgiveness doesn't matter and shouldn't be sought.
We offer advice, mostly aimed at what NOT to do, because we have the scars from stupid actions previous to yours.
You wanted 2x4's there that should be enough.
Ouch. I think all this pain is really f'ing with my judgment. I just lose it. My life IS a rollercoaster. I have been setting boundaries and stepping right over them.
This chick was never my friend and quite frankly I really wouldn't have her in my life by choice either way so I figured WTF?
I didn't figure on the other points you guys pointed out. If anything this makes me disgusted with myself and helping me move to commiting to detachment. Then as you say my armor will be on and I can deflect this petty psycho b.s.
Everything else is going so well. I am excercising. staying busy with other stuff. I just started with IC yesterday. FU*K!
It was stupid. I need to detach. I will detach.
Thanks for the 2X4's I'm going to get some ice.
Grit...
Just sayin, that email, to a worthless piece of monkeycrap..
Took you,
let's see....8 wpm, look up 3 in thesaurus, 18 to fix the spell check....
Estimated around an hour to compose...????
Give or take 59 minutes ?????
Divide that by the lateral damage it caused....
You dwelling on it..
Isn't there something else to spend that time on ?
This bimbo isn't what is wrong with your marriage....
Stop focusing on, that it is....
In the future, find something better to do, instead of giving all your power away ....
I would imagine , picking splinters will occupy most of the next couple days so that nothing else stupid happens when you DO get a response.....
Mistakes are only mistakes if you do not learn, and keep making them......( nickel Pirate)
Find an excuse to do better Grit......
When you get a response from that bithc...
just delete it.
IF you read it, you're just going to want to respond.
and block her email.
TG-
You fell off of the horse into the mud. Time to...get up...wipe off your hands....and get back on.
I did get a response. Pretty much what I expected. I didn't respond and I won't. Will delete it. Block her email.
Get some tweezers to pull the bits of lumber out of my head. Shake the sawdust out my ears.
And put my feet back in the stirrups.
I talked to my sis today who by coincidence (or maybe not)is in MLC. She just moved out on her wonderful husband and their two kids. What a mess. My mother is about to kill herself (not really). Both her children are seperated right now. Anyway sis is also in A with OM. Haven't really talked to her cause I got enough crazy on my plate right now and I am kinda pissed at her too.
I told her what I did yesterday and she told me from her perspective as an MLCer that I really f-cked up. Said I didn't respect the friendship. She said the time to tallk about why this friendship shouldn't be in the marriage comes later. I need to apologize to her and sound sincere. Said I need to be the soft spot for her to land when she's ready. Said that's what OM is to her right now and what I do is more of what isn't soft or safe which is get on her case about her idiot friends etc.
In about a minute she told me all this like she wrote the friggin text book. She said I can save my marriage and I should save my marriage. I have to be patient.
This is awesome and I wanted to share what she said:
Pretend like your wife is a squirrel.
A squirrel?
Yes a squirrel.
You want to give her a nut. Not a pile of nuts. A nut. You say "Here little squirrel here's a nut." And hold the nut out until she comes to get it.
Ok.
And don't jump up and down and say "Hey squirrel over here! I have a nut for you!"
Yeah.
You'll scare the squirrel away. But you have to keep giving her a nut, one nut at a time.
Ok. My wife is a squirrel. I think I understand.
My baby sis. She's a WAS and an MLCer and that just may be what saves us both.
That is an interesting analogy..what I find even more interesting is that your sis is so aware of what is going on.
I would expect someone in MLC to not understand what they need right now to return to their M..they don't know if they want to return to their M..and most likely- they just want out of their M. They are confused and irrational about most everything.
hmmmmmm.......makes me want to lure my H in..here H H..here H H...and then take a nut and throw it at his head.
MC
I am actually doing great. I feel better about the detachment it's getting easier. I text W every couple of days. Short and sweet. "how r u doing?" "Have a great day." that kind of stuff.
I am not obsessing about what's going on with her or what any dumbass friend is talking to her about whatever dumbass advice goes through crazy people's heads.
I decided I'm going to learn to ride a horse and started taking lessons on monday and got another today. I am going to IC each week and that is reaffirming what I'm getting here.
Really after she sent me the email I posted over a week ago which showed so much promise ... Nothing. I haven't pressed anything. Just a benign text every 2 or 3 days which I feel costs me nothing emotionally. It's safe.
Every day feels better. My mom went to work on me a little. Just being the overprotective, fear based thinker she's been all my life. She doesn't want me with W. Never did. I got mad and then just let it go knowing her motives are good (she loves me and doesn't want me to be hurt) methods bad- pushing her fear on to me telling me what she thinks I should do, which is move on.
I ran from the demise of my first marriage. If I'm going I'm going with my head held high with my dignity and soul in tact. I'm going under my own terms and not because of anger or as a victim of some wrong.
I am leaving with my power when (and if) I go.
Good for you Grit.
Ever notice, eveyone feels the need to tell you how they felt AFTER a relationship isn't working out so well?
Man ain't it the truth Jack! It is the toughest thing when it comes from your family.
Lost mentioned you really have to have courage to stand up to everyone,(family, friends, etc) knowing they only want you to stop hurting and she's the reason you're hurting.
Stay the course ...
Actually...
You are the reason you are hurting, your choice, your emotional commitment. Your choice to stay the course.
And you do have to be strong.
Yes I agree ... now ... that I have been here.
I need to keep that in mind.
Hey TG, How are the horseback riding lessons going? Hope you weren't to saddlesore for your second lesson. It's a great GALing activity!
Again Grit..most people don't understand why we choose to stay. Our friends and family have their reasons for this..they don't want to see us in pain (my father), want grandkids from their only daughter(my mother), don't ever want to see the dishonest son of a b*tch (friends), don't want to face the uncomfortable-ness of seeing the H again (brothers).
You choose to stay for your own reasons..and you choose not to go for your own reasons..nobody else needs to live with your decisions..so who cares what they think..right?
Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway.(in lieu of your GAL)
Hey seeking. Thanks for stopping by. The horseback riding lessons are going great! I fell off the first time because the saddle was loose and I just tipped over.I was sore after that!
I was on a bigger horse yesterday (and bigger saddle) and got to do maneauvering through pilons in a trot. Teach says I have natural riding ability!
It is just a great uplifting activity. The ride out there in the country. The farm has two baby horses that run up to the gate when I pull in and want to petted. The whole thing has done wonders for my spirit.
I recommend it highly as a GAL activity. Nonwithstanding the (literally) advice of getting back on the horse!
Hey TG,
Glad you're enjoying horses! I own 4 and my DIL 2. We have a mare due here in the next couple weeks or so. I stand two stallions so there are 'visiting' mares in the spring, also.
Nothing like being on the back of a powerful animal and racing through a field. Good for you getting back on after falling off. Lots of folks would let that be it. After saddling the horse walk it around a bit and then retighten the saddle. Walking the horse around gives it a chance to let the breath out that it took while you were tightening the cinch.
Good luck and have fun!
I posted earlier that my mother went to work on me. I got angry and then apoligized. Since then (past 2 nights) mom has had more than her share of wine and then starts in on me. Asking questions. Giving advice that doesn't even make sense and I can tell she's buzzed. The drinking definitely increased after our confrontation.
Last night I found myself getting angry and wanting her to just stop with the stupid sh*t. Then realized the feeling was familiar (does this word derive from family?) I would get the same feeling when W would do this with the wine. I wanted to just tell mom to leave me the f&ck alone. I didn't because I'm trying to understand. But did use to lash out at W in this very same sich.
WTF? I know this sh#t happened growing up when my parents were separated (for me age 8 to 13 on and off). My sis and I lived with mom. I remember my mom use to drink. I don't remember much about this time- I mean the bad stuff. I had to take care of my sister (2 years younger) starting at a young age. Aha! The rescuer/fixer. She remembers all the drama. I don't. She is als,o as I mentioned earlier, now a WAS and MLCer.
I know this is all freudian stuff and I will get into it with my IC. What's going on now is that me and my sis are in marital strife. My mom is wearing mittens around the house (we live in FL) and is in full blown obsessive compulsive cleaning, telling me to clean, telling my dad to clean. She has mentioned at least 3 times in 2 days that I need to eat the avocado I bought before it goes bad. The mittens are becasue she bites the edges of her fingers till they bleed sometimes.
I am mentioning all this because I think I have hit on something for me. That I need to work on. I don't want to get angry.
I recognize that when my W went into crisis I probably reacted/coped with the same mechanisms I used as a child when my mom was in crisis. Get angry. Don't put your drama on me. Get the F outof my face. Then shut down. My IC asked me if I had any of those feelings or memories. I said if I do they are way down in there.
I am living with my parents during this and it is either the best or worst place for me to be- depending on the perpective and my goals. I think I look at it as an opportunity to exorcise my own demons.
Any observations on this? Is there a doctor in the house?
Well I see no one wanted to touch this with a 10 foot pole. I don't either quite frankly. I did talk to mom. Quite funny how I realized what to say. I watched Where the Wild Things Are. A very insightful movie. The big Monster Carol goes bashing about and behaves very badly, he rips his best friend's arm off. BECAUSE HE IS SCARED.
I know that all this crap with MOM and with W is becasue they are SCARED.
That's all...well with W it gets a little more complex but that's the basic emotion.
I talked to mom and told her that I know her motives are very well-intentioned but that when she let's fear get to her and she puts that fear on me, then it makes me scared too. She admitted that was what she was feeling and recognized how she could make me feel crazy too and angry. I apologized for getting angry. She apologized for putting her fears on me. For now Mom's mittens have to stay on. That's ok. I wish putting mittens on would protect me sometimes.
The last thing I explained to her was that she needs to trust me to make the best decisions for myself now. She agreed that i am doing very well with handling this-not running away-dealing with it and said she was very proud of me.
I think it was a very positive step for me and my mom.
Yeah...I didn't have much of a response. I think your insight into your maternal relationship is good enough.
My mom and I had a blow up years ago about a relationship with a girl that I was dating. After that, she never interfered again. Kinda wish she might of tried with my M; but I wouldn't have listened. What 31 yr old man is going to turn away a 24 yr old Div I cheerleader????
Of course, the rest is history. I got two beautiful kids out of the deal; a potentially sweet settlement (in reference to what most men come out with) and a STBX whose youthful beauty is fading fast and so is she!!!
I recognize that when my W went into crisis I probably reacted/coped with the same mechanisms I used as a child when my mom was in crisis. Get angry. Don't put your drama on me. Get the F outof my face. Then shut down.
I would do something similar- get angry. My father never went into crisis..but he would just repeat the same story..over..and over..and over again when he drank. It also irritated the hell out of me that he would slur his words. One difference, I didnt really shut down. I just wouldn't shut up...I would need to point out that he told the same story 15 times..and that he was slurring his words.
Just recently..I finally accepted my father for who he is. I still don't enjoy talking to him while he is drinking...but I don't get angry. I figure..the man is in his 70's- he isn't going to change. I have finally accepted him. My mother still hasn't..she says the same things..and acts the same way- and surprise- he responds the same way- he ignores her!! I feel so much better about this. It was about time to let go.
I give you credit for remaining so patient with your parents. You are going through a difficult time and it really isn't easy when your parents are giving advice. They still believe they know best. Their intentions are good..but you need to go alone.
Has your W brought up D recently? I need to get over here to MLC more often.
No W never wanted D.I was pushing after A then found my way here. She still doesn't the last time I asked(about a month ago) But she is still in A as far as I know but I don't ask anymore.
I'm wondering how long I can wait this out if she continues this A it has been going on for 6 months or more.
It's showing me how really selfish this MLC stuff is.
TG - MLCer's are super selfish. It's all about them.
How long you wait is up to you. You have to have the patience of a saint to wait out a MLC. True your W will not move forward in the tunnel until the A has ended, but she will still have a long way to go to complete her journey when OM is out of the picture.
She doesn't want to divorce but doesn't want to give up OM. When is the last time you asked you to give up the OM?
Last time I mentioned it was after hopeful email I posted upthread p.3. She said she wanted to talk and we did a bit. I said I would love to talk more when you're ready to talk and you know what that means. Then it was nothing ...I have already told her that I am willing to work on our M whenever she is ready but OM has to be gone.
Not happened yet. So I can set deadlines and go crazy. Or I can work on myself and not attach emotion or expectation to anything. I have hope but I am not going to stay attached to try to force this sitch. It's too painful. I have made it a goal this week to go a week since I last texted with her which was Friday. Nothing special just have a good weekend and told her if she wanted to take dog for a visit she could.
I don't know. I am getting good at detaching but should I be doing more here? Good question Lola.
Because she doesn't initiate contact my gut tells me any efforts to push this along will be just another heartache for me. They say on here believe none of what you hear (i.e. email)and only 50% of what you see (action). I've seen no action. Just a few hopeful words.
How long can you wait it out bro?
I've been dealing for nearly 4 years and I have had enough. I just hope it hasn't dealt a blow to the psyche of my children.
It's only been a month or so of DBing. She is still in crisis- no job, no income, losing her house, ... na na not my f&cking problem anymore...
Her mom just says "she got a lot on her plate" I felt like saying yeah she eats hers and mine too!
I am in a much better place right now. As I said I'm going on my own terms if I go and I think I'll know when that is.
Lola asked when last time I asked if A was over. Should I ask that question? I am afaid of the answer if she says no then what do I say? I want to say-have a nice life then!
I almost don't want to ask because it keeps me insulated from the drama. If she draws me back in with reconciliation talk before she's ready to deal with her sh#t...she knows not do that now ...she knows the answer.
As soon as you start being responsible to our marriage then I will too. Until then...
I almost don't want to ask because it keeps me insulated from the drama.
And that's our key to survival and detachment. Ya know that they say A's are addictive and that NO CONTACT with the OP is the key to the withdrawal of the WAS from the A. If the WAS and the OP make contact; the clock starts over at 0:00 for withdrawal.
That's exactly how I view any contact with my W. It's like I'm addicted to her. Every time that we have contact it's like my detachment starts over. Unfortunately, I have to stay in contact because we have children; so my battle looms large for detachment. But each time, it gets easier as I spend time away from her; my fog lifts and I can see her for who she is.
We were at the ballpark where the kids were having practice on Saturday. She took a call from her sister, who is also divorcing her husband; and my W was talking so loud everyone in the ballpark was looking at her. Initially I was embarrassed and in our M I would have been. But then I heard her say,"Yeah, I ain't gettin' married again. next time, I'll just stay single and then I can up and leave without worrying about hurting someone's feelings." I mean, WTF???? So that's what I'm playing with. One of my IC's told me once that her emotional growth was stunted somewhere in her teenage years.
Oh well...
Man that's just sick isn't it? Didn't she survive some sexual abuse during her teens?
Makes sense. It's her coping mechanism.
But then I heard her say,"Yeah, I ain't gettin' married again. next time, I'll just stay single and then I can up and leave without worrying about hurting someone's feelings."
How can someone downgrade their M to a high school relationship? Get over yourself!!!
My H asked me something awhile back that disturbed me..which was along the same line. He asked "Didn't you ever love an old high school boyfriend?"..I said of course. He said "do you love them now?" I said no. He responded "Sometimes relationships just end". My response was "Our M was not a high school relationship. Part of the commitment of M is to work on issues and keep the love alive and try to fall in love multiple times. It is not just giving back a varsity jacket and moving on." It is just such an immature way of thinking. Definitely a stunt in emotional growth.
That's exactly how I view any contact with my W. It's like I'm addicted to her. Every time that we have contact it's like my detachment starts over.
I guess that is what makes it unhealthy right now. Is real, stable, non A love an addiction too?
TG- I am not suggesting you ask your W if she has given up the A or if the A is over. I don't know what the right approach is. But at some point it appears to become cake eating..and you the enabler by just letting her eat her cake. I know A's typically fizzle out..and I know that you are working on yourself through this process..but does she know that you don't approve of her A and that you will not accept it?
The squirrel keeps shi**ing in my hand. It's interesting to read someone so insightful on other relationships can ignore and devastate her own.
I realize I am new to this detachment thing because I want to say I have something to land in OM's soft spot.
Hey buddy! Glad your here.
MLC'ers do that as you will learn. They have moments of clarity then boop! back in the tunnel. Squirrel or Prairie Dog!
Lola wants to hit her H in the head with one of the nuts!
[quote]
TG- I am not suggesting you ask your W if she has given up the A or if the A is over. I don't know what the right approach is. But at some point it appears to become cake eating..and you the enabler by just letting her eat her cake. I know A's typically fizzle out..and I know that you are working on yourself through this process..but does she know that you don't approve of her A and that you will not accept it?
I know it's a fine line. What they call the razor's edge on the MLC board. I don't think it's cake eating if you're not attached. I don't get caught up in the drama. I am not trying to fix or enable. I can force this but like Lost said to me It's like a dog they stop listen and then ...there off. Until she decides on her own, there's nothing really to talk about.
She definitely knows I don't approve.
She definitely knows I don't approve.
That is really all that needs to be conversed about the affair. She knows he doesn't approve....nothing more. Let's face the reality....if a spouse is already having an affair, what are the chances they will give a rats a$$ about a boundary enforcement to stop it?
Let's look at it from stage that the affair has just ended. I think there is one of three probably developments from that.
1-The spouse moves on to the next affair. Obviously still in MLC and their personal issues haven't been addressed. Causes of this may include LBS intervention, another spouse intervention, or just the relationship went south. In any case....the MLC person has not gotten to the point for self review. Until that happens it could move to affairs 2,3, 4, or whatever or worse yet...a divorce, quick remarriage, and a reenactment of the process again.
2-The spouse withdrawals, goes through their own pain cycle, and completes self review. This will eventually happen.....the deal for the LBS is to wait until it happens which is all in the hands of the LBS. This is USUALLY seen with a relationship ending on it's own...sometimes boundaries speed it along, but more than likely not. Issues are addressed and not buried.
3-The spouse just comes home....sounds sweet doesn't it? The LBS made a stand that forces the WAS to return...Oh my, what power the LBS has. The problem that makes this one actually the worst option.....no one has addressed their issues. Problems in the marriage prior to the affair are rarely addressed. So here returns the WAS spouse.....how do we see that happening a majority of the time? Go to newcomers and read some of the longer boundary enforcement posters......it is amazing that they keep reliving the same scenario over and over.
What we need to do is detach, accept the marriage of OLD is dead, and deal with our part of it's demise. If the marriage is really meant to be, the WAS will return. If not, then we have dealt with our issues and don't carry them forward. In either option.....what is happening with the WAS's affair should have no impact on our development. So in that light....it doesn't matter what is going on. If the affair ends....what matters is how the MLC'er moves through their tunnel.
Lost, as always...thanks for the clarity.
Go to newcomers and read some of the longer boundary enforcement posters......it is amazing that they keep reliving the same scenario over and over.
So the major difference between newcomers and MLC
So in that light....it doesn't matter what is going on. If the affair ends....what matters is how the MLC'er moves through their tunnel.
I like this explanation.
Grit- any contact with W? good or bad? How are you doing with the NC?
I had to send some information over that came to my email re her website expiring. I was strictly business. She responded and asked how I was doing. Said fine one word answer. She emailed me yesterday a.m. blab blah took care of the website then about some shooting that happened near our house, she had a dream with our dog in it...may go home with her mom when she leaves (moms been living there since Jan)
I didn't respond. I am just going to keep pushing this out. Not to play games but I am not going to act like her best friend either. I wasn't really ready for that when I first started. I looked back at my communication history with her. I met her on Jan. 31 to deliver my side of the divorce papers.
I registered here Feb 27. So I've been trying to DB for a month. At first I didn't want to communicate abandonment but as this thing goes on I am not going to remain in that mode. Even though I have little emotion tied to our communications i also believe that if it's easy for her she will not feel the sting. It also feels natural for my healing process to continue to move toward full detachment.
I read something interesting: people attract mirrors of their own emotional health. The OM in my case fits the bill.
I went to IC yesterday and she said I have made a great amount of progress in a short period of time! I know I feel better. I still get overwelmed with stressful thoughts. She said that my W is down the scale of a 3 or 4 on growth and I am rising so if I were with her now it likely would be difficult for us. She's got to come up to my growth level. I think that's an interesting perspective and also what we talk about here.
I have begun the very difficult task of looking in the mirror. There are some things I have to change. I am going to journal them here when I am ready...
So what is the status of the divorce papers? Where does W's mother live? in state?
I am glad to hear that IC is going so well for you and that you are making progress in a short period of time. Have you tried the tough love/dark route with her for an extended period of time? I agree with you about not being her best friend. I wish I had better advice to give you Grit..being lost myself..I can only be here to listen. You and I started DBing around the same time so I have no idea what works or doesn't work..but I do know that I have gotten better results with keeping as distant as possible..which hasn't been easy but it makes ME feel better. I am listening when you are ready to journal.
Her mom lives in another state. I was proposing an uncontested divorce(no lawyers) so was going to file myself and she had to fill out papers too. so that's what I presented to her 2 months ago. Then I found DB.
It's delicate in her state I think. I can't be perceived as angry or resentful with my detachment. I promised to be patient and give her space. I think that tapering off the frequency is the best way to go for ME. I have said before she is not manipulative and she hasn't really tried to deflect the A. When I have asked she told me straight up. I have not been manipulative either becauseI don't believe that will get me anywhere if I'm not living what I'm doing i.e. doing it as a means to an end. So if I'm going completely dark it's because I can't take the pain (which right now I would say the communication costs me little where it is) or I am moving on...
Help me out with something folks. I am getting the gospel over here in MLC about detaching and how to do that. I guess may question relates to communication with W while she is still in A. I have been I guess what they call dim (I don't know is this right?) by limiting my communication with W. It has been a week now since I initiated any contact. And when I do it is innocuous stuff like how are you? Hope you are having a good day. IOW stuff that doesn't cost me anything emotionally as I attach no expectation or meaning to it. Just here working on me.
I read these other posts and people are going DARK and no contact and it seems to me that you should do that only if you need the boundary. If W was manipulating me and trying to draw me back in and it was upsetting my growth goals or making me get my hopes up etc. Then BAM! you gotta shut the door until you can handle it better. So NC is a boundary and a step in your recovery and healing.
On the surface it seems to do this is communicating weakness and anger. It's like oh your ignoring me because I kicked you in the nuts. And she'd be right. It's like it's meant to be punishment. Or it's you can't handle not pursuing, no R talk, or detaching without it. Either way I see it as a weak stance to take.
Or the worst one is you are using it as a strategy and you attach some expectation to it like if I do this she'll come back and you focus on that rather than your growth.
I was over on another thread (in Newcomers or Infidelity) and was sharing my creed and got slammed. Now the sitch in question the person probably needs the boundary.
So it's a question dim or dark? What are your thoughts?
Grit- I would go dark..you haven't done that yet. The dim hasn't appeared to be working. I know she has PTSD and abandonment issues...but I think you have been her crutch. You are like spare change to her..always there. See if she will call your bluff.
I agree with dark...
You don't have any children, so there is no absolute need to be in contact. Each time you send what you think is an inane text; it transmits to her that you are still waiting and available so she can take her time to do whatever she wants to do. She knows that you are on the backburner waiting for her. You're allowing her to cake-eat.
You want her to experience life without Grit and each time you send a text; she's knows that Grit is waiting. Where's her incentive to come back? She can take her time right now...cause you're still there waiting...
Now that's your prerogative, obviously. You can still wait; I just don't think that you have to make it obvious by continuing to contact her. Even with PTSD and, possibly, a PD; she still knows right from wrong.
Good luck Grit...each of us chooses our own path.
I am not wearing my wedding ring and haven't since I left. I think I feel that my old M is dead and unless we start a new one then there is no hurry to put it back on. I hadn't really thought about it. Thoughts?
Lola and MC I have to contact her this week I need to go over and get some stuff in the garage related to my business. I texted Happy Easter yesterday and got a response back and forth with a little convo. But it had been a week and she did initiate contact. I think it might be time for pulling completely away. I know she is still crisis so she's not thinking clearly anyway but she can do that without Grit.
My question now is what's the right way to say I don't want contact. I think soemtimes its done wrong and communicates vindictiveness and weakness.
Maybe I say we have been living in limbo for almost two months, I have been patient as I said I would be. You know I am committed to putting our M back together and have been working toward that goal. I think you have continued to choose a life away from our M and I have come to understand that is what I can expect from you right now. The time for me to stand by and wait for you to make better choices is over. I want to be married. I want to have a family. I desire to be with someone who wants these things and makes them a priority in their life.
I will initiate no further communication with you. I want no communcation from you unless you have decided to give up this A, all contact with this man and commit to our marriage.
TG-
You know I am committed to putting our M back together and have been working toward that goal.
Saving the marriage is YOUR goal.....is it hers?
I think you have continued to choose a life away from our M and I have come to understand that is what I can expect from you right now.
Do you really believe that you understand her?
The time for me to stand by and wait for you to make better choices is over. I want to be married. I want to have a family. I desire to be with someone who wants these things and makes them a priority in their life.
A lot of "I" talk and while not overly controlling or vindictive....you are projecting your "wants" onto your wife.
That all said.....I like that you are going dark and ceasing communication. I do agree that she is using both you and her mom as her crutches....and that needs to end. Since you are only in control of yourself...ending communication with her is a good step.
So just stop talking with her....no need to inform her of that. Just stop....and if in a week or two she tries to contact you...then give your reasons for the end of the communication.
Think about it from both sides....The way you detailed above says "I want, I want, I want before we communicate".....if you just go dark and stop communicating and she contacts you, well than you can deliver the same boundaries differently. This time it can be delivered "If you want to communicate with me, then x, y, and Z must happen."
The differences are subtle....but different none the less. You aren't projecting your wants onto her...you are making the solutions to her wants her decision.
Grit- I would not even communicate to her that you are going dark. I would just go dark. It will make her wonder what is going on and perhaps start pursuing a bit. I think you should hold your cards close to your chest. She knows that you have been waiting and knows that you want your M. By stating this again isn't going to spark a different reaction. IMO
..also..I am not wearing my wedding ring unless at work or out with work people. I have been calling it my decoy ring..it no longer symbolizes anything. I have seen H wearing it and not wearing it..more oftenly not...but he was never a person to wear it all the time to begin with.
Thanks you all! I agree. I'll write more later.
Man I had a long day! just got home a half hour ago. Lost your questions as always are thought provoking. I do not know for sure that her goal is to save our M. It would seem it is way down the list if she continues this A. I think her goals are so basic right now-whatever takes the pain away. OM is easy. No work there just fun and she doesn't have to let him know about all the stuff I know ...fantasy land.
Soooo.... no I don't think I understand her. Her choices.
I think all this is just a little bit of realizing that with all my patience I feel I can't abide by the continued A. I feel that- yes -there is cake eating going on.
Lost I like that you pointed out the subtly in this. I didn't think of that way. I always want to control the situation and therefore wanted to communicate my new control. But as you pointed out that is projecting (to a degree) my own wants and forcing behavior. Everything that needs to be said to her about me standing for M, my patience, my integrity, my courage, my stance about A...
HAS BEEN SAID.
You're right nothing more needs to be communicated I need to live my goals. Live my promises to myself.
TG-
You are starting to get it
hey Grit- how did everything go with the W?
I didn't see her yesterday - surprise! I did go to the house to get my stuff. MIL was there. She was nice enough. I hugged her hello and goodbye. The whole house except the furniture is packed up and in the garage (house is in foreclosure). I do not own this house it's hers from previous M 5 years ago and a long story told upthread.
I did speak with her briefly night b4 last and she said would call me in the morning(yesterday) which she did bright and early she talked mostly about what was going on with her job search. I mostly just supported her saying well you need to trust your instincts, you have been very successful in your life based on your gut so you need to listen to it. etc. I cut the convo short saying I had to get ready to go.
After I went to house I texted her I had left and forgot to leave her Ipod player. She called me back and started to go into more detail about why she had packed up everything that she wanted to be procative in her life and not let everything just happen to her. I said that's a very good way to be. Said she sounded good and was doing good. She started to get into some of the drama going on and I cut the convo short again saying I had work to take care of.
She call backed again to tell me she forgot to tell me she ran into someboday while out. Wanted to talk more I said I had to go. I had work to do.
I didn't contact her after that at all. She seems to be wanting to engage based on yesterday but I am still thinking just to go dark until she contacts me again. We didn't talk R at all.
So does that seem right? If she contacts me again should I bring up my boundaries about A? Thoughts?
Got an email from W today that was a form letter notifying me she has changed her email address...
...To one that is not attached to my account. I had snooped in the past but I hadn't done it since the debacle with her idiot blond bimbo friend about 3 weeks ago.
... so we beat on, like boats against the current...
Is she definitely moving in with her mother? When is she out of the house?
It is probably best that you can no longer access her email account..helps you further detach. The temptation is too great to not snoop..at least for me. Still no R talks? How are you holding up?
W called me again yesterday. She needed me to do something ...blah blah blah. We shared a few laughs. I told her I was looking for a place to live. She responded with very little interest like it didn't matter cause she didn't see herself being wherever I ended up.
I need to deliver my no contact speech. I am not sure what exactly to say but I ma thinking something like:
Is there any doubt in your mind that I desire to work on our M?
I have been putting a lot of energy toward that end and have had a lot of patience. I find that for my own emotional health, I cannot continue having contact with you while your energy is directed away from our M.
I will file an extension for our taxes but it is my intention to file separately. So you will be responsible for your income and taxes.
Lost any thoughts? Anybody else that has handled this?
Grit- I still think that you shouldn't provide her with an explanation of you going dark Just go dark. Start small 2 weeks. Just fall off the planet with her. If you are worried about the taxes..just file the extension and discuss this with her later. Don't ask her about her intentions. She cannot miss something that she hasn't lost.
I need to deliver my no contact speech.
Why?
If you are going to go NC, then just do it. You don't need a speech. You should go NC.
NC is a form of communication. It is just non-verbal
Well the reason I ask is she is now contacting me so do I just cut her off cold? No response at all?
Got it. Going cold and dark.
How is dark and cold going Grit?
I took my mother to see Bill Cosby tonight..he was hysterical. We then had some wine and a nice dinner out. It is a beautiful night in the NE. How is the weather down in FL?
LOOOOla!
Weather was beautiful! Had some friends over and cooked ribs on the grill to watch the end of the Masters.
Have not talked to wife in any way. I filed our tax extension today so we'll have to talk about that. I think I'm going to file M filing separately which she will have to file her own.
That won't go over well...
I just think we don't have a relationship so it's not my concern.
One of my friends was saying today: Truegritter's W is gorgeous!
I said yes she is easy on the eyes but hard everywhere else!
I think I'm going to use that going forward!
I guess I am coming to a crossroads.
The only thing I really FEAR is that waiting for W continues to be a speed bump in becoming truly healthy. By design it has the goal of keeping the M. I very much want that. I am not sure W can ever get there.
I am finding that I am struggling with the fact that my W continues an A. I know she is on her journey and I can't force this. But I am finding I don't want this as part of my life. It's like I'm walking arounding with a knife sticking out of my chest. People ask me what's that sticking out your chest? When are you going to take it out? Why would you want to be with someone who put a knife in your chest? GOOD QUESTION.
The picture is becoming clear and the only variable is time.
I think for me to get through this I have to let go of the expectation that my W is going to catch up to me on this journey.
Can't remember who posted this but said "expectations are the downfall of good men"
I want to be a "good man" again. I have looked in the mirror and I know what I have done. I was depressed for most of my M because of my business struggles. That did not provide security to our M. I know that is squarely in my camp. I haven't talked to W about this becasue it's MC stuff and she is still in A.
The expectation has been the chain holding me back. I think I need to let go of it and move on. I mean open myself up to new people and experiences. If W comes back in my life then I can evaluate that just as if we just met and if I am in a relationship then I need to evaluate that too.
I don't feel anger anymore. I have released it. I am sad about my W and our M but that is getting better. I am sad about the choices she continues to make but they are hers not mine.
Has any of you been at this point in the process? Is this a healthy step? Should I consider some other things?
I don't want to give up but I want to be healthy. Any thoughts?
Grit..I just don't know. It doesn't even seem like your W is giving anything..not even a thought to saving your M. I don't know what she is doing or thinking. Don't make any big moves right now...stay dark and cold. I think you need to do that right now.
I get your comment about a knife sticking out of your chest..take the knife out. Don't allow her to hurt you anymore. That is a choice you can make. You have been so patient...try this out for a few weeks. You aren't looking to jump into something new right now anyway.
You need to stop blaming yourself for the downfall of your M. Your W took an oath to love you in sickness and in health. She committed herself to being by your side during good and BAD times. You don't go into a M thinking that everything is going to be perfect and the person that you married is perfect. Part of her job was to help you thru your tough time..support and love you. Having an A is pure selfishness...there isn't room for that in a M..you didn't push her into it..she chose this.
Lola
I agree totally I have just come to terms through my IC that I was depressed during this time and it didn't help me, her or M. There is no excuse in my opinion that justifies the A.
I'm not going to do anything except get on with my life and not think about the expectation that she will realize anything about our M or herself.
More later ...
I think what I am saying is that I am letting another layer of detachment take hold. There is a delicate balance I feel between that which you have to do to become healthly by letting the hurt, expectation, and emotion go. And letting hope go.
Also trying to balance this person you see before you and the person they could be IF...
True,
Do let go of negative emotions, have zero expectations, but keep hope alive. Keep detaching. If you really want your M to work, don`t jump into any R right away, it`s not fair to anyone.
Do GAL, go out with friends, keep busy, take off for a weekend, do something just for you, you deserve it.
Give a little more time before you give up hope.
Celestial
Grit- I wish I could give you a hug..you seem to be struggling right now. Keep detaching..but I don't think it is time to give up hope...
xoxo
I am struggling with this. Thanks Lola and Celest.
Some good developments:
I have stopped having dreams with W in them.
I am sleeping through the night.
I think I have to re-align my hope to something different. It was a general hope that we could get our M back. I think I have to think about this differently. There was so much in my M that I questioned with W. She was so self-centric in her decisions. I have questioned this from the beginning. I ALWAYS was the one carrying the heavier load in our M in every aspect. And then she's the one who makes the most selfish decision to have an A.
I think my expectation is for me now. I need to stand on my principals and values through this process and know that it will lead to a healthy decision about W and M.
To be mindful of the truth in myself, that I am strong, and confident that I will come through this to the right place for me. I know that I AM a good man and a good husband.
Now I need to write that down and keep it with me to remind myself every day, and especially in moments of doubt- that's who I am.
I AM a good man and a good husband.
Yes, remember this. I`m told our WAS would have gone through MLC no matter what. If we were in their lives or not. They have unresolved issues they couldn`t get past, even tho they deny it all. I see my H`s siblings going through their own confusion, so this may be right.
There is still hope until a D is filed, and even after that. You will know when you`ve had enough and it`s time to move on.
Celestial
Thank you Celestial-That is some great wisdom and certainly makes it easier to swallow all this. I do forget it though. I know my W has to come to grips with her childhood issues and that this would/did happen with or without me.
It is a choice to seek to understand this (by being here) and a choice to continue to endure the trials of loving someone who doesn't know how to love themselves.
I know this is the toughest path. It is to love without any want or need for its return. I love because I love. It is so hard to keep this straight especially when you are getting the opposite of love from the person you love. Or for me I get just complete ambivilance.
I think each day it is getting easier to just say that to myself.
I don't want to run away from the pain as much as I want to run toward joy. I ran away from the pain of my first M.
I guess this my philosophical diatribe about my situation. It sometimes helps to talk about it in these terms so you know how to put the pain behind you.
I have been reading the thread about the stages of LBS. I can certainly see where I have been on that continuum. I do feel it is a continuum because until you get to Acceptance you fall back to anger, sometimes denial, sometimes bargaining.
I feel like lately, since I have gone NC that something has taken hold. To do the NC you have to let go of a lot that you've held on to. Your fear mostly I think. I also think it is truly the stage when you have said, and are moving to accepting that your M is dead. Then depression over the loss comes in. I think that's where I am.
Through the whole process though I feel like all the triggers and the pain, the anger, the sadness are necessary. You have to let this stuff happen. Then you have to decide to stop it from happening. I think detaching is the most important and necessary step.
A common mistake and one I made on my first M is to run away from it. Hide in a new R or multiple R's. Stay so busy you don't have time to feel. One could say you are detached but distracted.
I really think that is a mistake. I think you have to let this stuff come through. Own it and deal with it.
I recognize now that there was no other way for my M to go then where it did. There was no way it was going to survive what my W was dealing with and where I was, where our M had gone becasue of it. It was not healthy.
This a little bit of Acceptance that I see happening with me.
Just journaling ...thanks for listening.
Good stuff TG!
Through the whole process though I feel like all the triggers and the pain, the anger, the sadness are necessary. You have to let this stuff happen. Then you have to decide to stop it from happening.
Yes they are and yes you do. You have to accept it, allow yourself to feel it and deal with it. You have to keep moving forward. Many people will become stuck and stay (some for a long time) in either anger or depression.
Keep moving forward.
Well I got an email over the weekend from W. I have not initiated contact with her for over week.
I responded very short and sweet.
I have been reconnecting with lots of friends and some of the women have found me on FB and sent friend requests and wrote stuff.
W sent me a message this a.m. saying "It looks like you've been busy on FB. Can we talk this week?"
My question is how to handle these requests from her?
My thinking is just say call whenever you want which is what I have told her from the beginning.
My attitude lately has evolved to just be happy and live my life I don't have any expectations about this. So my convo's with W will follow this attitude.
TG,
Love your attitude!! Treat W as you would treat a friend. Before any re-action from you, think at how you would re-act to a friend, and treat W the same way.
Celestial
Celestial
Thanks for popping by. I did text her "Absolutely we can talk. Call me anytime."
TG-
Been busy here, but had to catch up on your situation.
Keep it up...you are in a good place that will only get better.
Just a bit of journaling this morning...
I have been trying to further define my experience and my path. To do this I have to keep in mind that I have a tendency to be a martyr.
I know this- I am not the cause of her pain nor am I the solution to it.
By commiting to my M and the vow I took I honor myself. Just as in anything else in life that you commit to its success. Winning a game. Getting a degree. Making a career. Sometimes we do this for others (i.e. the praise or acceptance of others)
This thing though is totally for YOU. YOU can certainly leave as a vcitim, or from a place of weakness, and truly dishonor and disrespect YOURSELF.
This is a choice to honor and respect YOURSELF. To leave would be giving yourself over to fear and allowing yourself to continue this into your life.
You are on your own. Few recognize the honor in remaining true to your vows, few have the courage to endure the worst trials of a marriage.
I decide to go forward from a place of strength. To rebuild myself for me so I can be a better man and then for who will share my life-my wife,hopefully, for I...
...do think love is the greatest thing we can give. It is not selfish. It does not want. It hopes all things. It endures all things...it stands ON ITS OWN.
As I do.
This is a journey to honor myself. To reconcile the self with the truly committed love for another.
To love enough to let go.
To love enough to live for yourself
To love enough to let them live and grow too.
To love enough to be patient.
There is no anger
no regret
no shame
no dishonor
no blame
no disrespect
no fear
... when you love in this way. There is no loss or injury to you.
You are not a martyr for what you do for LOVE you do for YOURSELF.
Again, thanks for listening.
Grit- why do you think you play the martyr?
A martyr is one who suffers for the sake of principle...you are suffering because you love deeply. Do you really think that makes you a martyr?????
Lola did you you major in Western Religion History?
LOL!
I might not be using the right term in the classical (or religious) sense but what I meant was when someone takes on someone else's pain...
...and make exuses for their behavior
Not really a true martyr more like a camel I guess, packing your own emotional baggage and someone else's across the desert.
Putting yourself in harm's way for someone.
Continuing to endure emotional pain for someone.
Make sense?
Derivatives might be fixer, enabler, rescuer etc.
The W of an alcholic who stay in the M for the kids would be another example.
But your point is well made, and it is the one I was making is that you are not a martyr if you love as I described above.
We have control over the suffering, and letting it go.
Only we can allow ourselves to suffer.
LOL- furthest from Western Religion History...bio-chem major!!! not even close. ; )
But I do understand what you are saying. Have you heard from your W? When is enough enough?
I am having a panic attack tonight navigating my way thru refinance papers. It is so scary to take on such a huge financial responsibility alone. UGH!! My lifestyle is going to take a huge hit. I just need to figure out ways to cut corners and make the situation work.
H called tonight. I didn't even answer the phone. I am so not in the mood to discuss any of this although I know we need to. I am living in my house right now like nothing has changed. Eventually my H is going to come and raid half of what we built together. All of this is very very scary. Are we going to be bickering over screw drivers and wine glasses? I just don't know what to expect. Sorry to raid your post...just having a moment.
Hope you are still doing well?
But I do understand what you are saying. Have you heard from your W? When is enough enough?
Can't say when. I'll know when I think but it will be up to me.
Haven't heard from W.
I was telling my IC today cause she asked whether I thought W was assertive and whether I thought she wanted to save the M.
Honestly I don't see my W continuing with OM. She doesn't blame me for her unhappiness. Doesn't blame for M failing. She is just running. I don't think she knows how to unwind what she has done here. She has said that SHE has made a mess of things.
I know that I cannot put my faith in any of this but it is what I think. I don't let it rule my daily thoughts but I do have hope.
I am just living my life the strongest and best way I can for me.
W contacted me yesterday. As I have reported I have initiated no contact with her and have had very little from her for 15 days.
Also as reported earlier she contacted me on FB after seeing activity on my FB, GALing stuff and asked if we could talk this week.
She said she was going to be near my office and wanted to come over. Of course my mind starts going every direction and I think she wants to just come get the rest of her stuff that is at my office that she has mentioned in the past that she wanted to come get. Says she would be over sometime about 3
I am thrown into chaos. After detaching I have been able to handle all the crap and now with her finally breaking the limbo good or bad I find myself trying to hang on to the new truegritter. So that is what I focus on during my day until she comes over.
We sit and talk at my office. Her body language and her demeaner seems contrite to me. Small talk. Said she hope I had brought the dog so she could see him. I said I told you that you can take him for a visit any time. She said I know but that would be difficult that she misses him so much.
This launches into R talk from her. We talk about her FB message to me. I say:
I am trying to live what I told you in that email I sent (see up thread)
TG:I am trying to be joyful. I am trying to work hard and live my life. That is what I promised you. I shouldn't have to say this but you know that I am not being unfaithful to you or disrespecting our M
W: I know that
TG: I am here but you have to figure out what is going to make you happy. What path you want your life to take. If you tell me you want to go on some adventure and that you don't want to be married anymore then I will be sad but if that's what you want then just tell me.
W: I realize that I have been living in other people's shadows. That I need to stand on my own. It has been very difficult. I am trying to find work. I am in financial hardship. I have stopped taking my meds because I can't afford it.
TG: How's that going?
W: Sometimes ok sometimes not. I find I am very angry sometimes.
TG: Is it directed at me?
W: No just about everything.
TG: Well for what it's worth I am not angry anymore. My IC shared with me that they studied when this happens in a M people liken the pain to be worse than losing both your parents at the same time. I can understand someone describing it that way.
W: Yes.
She talks about when her alcoholic friend was living with us says that was crazy. Neighbor is a weirdo she realizes now and not stable. Says she doesn't drink really anymore. Basically a talking about things that were real problems in our M and letting me know she understands and agrees.
TG: I know this seems like there is so much that has happened and that it seems so difficult. All the crazy stuff that happened but it doesn't have to be that difficult. You just have to decide to find happiness.
Basically a very good convo and I was surpised I could keep my path of basically living my promise to myself and her that I made in my email to her.
Gave her some CD's I had since she mentioned she didn't have any entertainment. No TV, no Ipod, etc. Walked her to her car.
Gave her a hug that lasted for a while until I broke it off. During hug I say "are you ok?" W: Yes.
I said it takes 2 words.
W: What?
TG: I'm ready.
She smiles and I close the door to her car and walk back into my office.
W texts a few minutes later "Thank you for being so kind."
I text: You do not have to thank me. You know where I stand so you should know it is who I am.
I don't know what comes next but I am going to stay on my path. I am not going to initiate contact. I don't have any expectations. I am not going to mindread.
I feel good. And today is Friday!!!
True -
It is very nice to see your growth...very inspiring. As I read your thread I could not help but notice the class and diginity that you have demonstrated thru this process. You my friend are a class act!
BTW - Are you still horse riding?
God Bless,
Eric
Grit- I am soooooo proud of you. You really are a class act. I will write more later. xo
Eric and Lola thank you both!
It has been a very difficult time but I am in a much better place.
I have been enriched with the wisdom of the folks on here and the courage of the people who are walking this path with me.
Wow,
A very good job on your part.
You like this new guy you have in your head to become right?
And if that is so, then you'll know why many here say they do not regret what happened...they became the new person they wanted to be.
Like a cake you're still not done yet, and...sadly if she came back right now...today, you would never really get there.
You need more time on your own to become your own person.
You did an amazing job, with style and grace that many oldtimers would envy.
And your attitude reminds me of me, when I first got here. : )
Before I got thrown for a dozen loops or so. : )
Take care of yourself, and keep your goal sharp in your mind's eye.
Thanks Jack.
There was a moment that I had to catch myself. I wanted to reconnect and text her ...
But I know this is a long road and I don't want to be with her right now...
It would not be the best for either of us. She is not done with her journey and I am not done with mine.
But I did pass a HUGE growth milestone for ME. I am stronger and better but not the strongest and not the best I can be.
I am going to stay the course.
hey Grit- how is it going?
Crazy weekend! I am doing great. Nothing new on the R front still in NC but it definitely is much easier now.
I was able to control taking the emotional ride after seeing W last week.
I am so glad to hear that. Crazy weekend here as well. Keep it up!!!
Way to go True. So how Crazy of a weekend?
I just hung out with friends all weekend. Actually met a woman she hung out with us most of the weekend. I feel kind of weird about it.
I am trying to sort out my feelings about it. I don't really want to invest in any romantic type relationship right now. It felt like it was goiing there quick. Weird.
It is difficult because I haven't had any connection with someone since separation with W in early Dec. What is the LBS supposed to do? Question for myself I guess.
You've been at this longer. Have you had to deal with this issue?
I think I know the answer for me right now is not to get involved with anyone in any way. But I think that will change over time. But how long? I don't know.
Back to documenting my existential journey...
Some observations/problems I have been reconciling:
NIMF- (Not In My Family)This is the double standard applied by family members in the name of love and caring. They blame spouse for all your pain, think you do no wrong, say your M was a mistake, problems with spouse are too insurmountable, why would you want to be with someone who has done this to you?
I am getting this from both my parents and did get it from my sis until she entered MLC recently. I find my parents to be very compassionate towards a couple where the W has severe Bipolar disorder. Doing things for W saying H is so caring and understanding. My M speculated that my W was bipolar shortly after we were M but got no such caring and understanding from her as I see with this couple that are their friends.
I know that it is their fear that does this. They can stand detached from this couple and admire and support their struggle but they do not have to live it. Their friend is so admirable for how he stood by his wife during her illness.
More to come ...
I don't need my family to accept this decision I have made. I use to need that.
I have said to my mother now and in a very loving tone:
I don't need to you to like W or be friends with W anymore. I use to need that but I don't anymore. It is your choice to do that or not do that but she is my W and she is part of my family until I decide she is no longer.
I have learned and accepted that my W did not make decisions to hurt me. If I believed that I would not be here telling you this.
Her pain and self loathing is more powerful than her capacity to love herself and me. More powerful than her words of commitment. More powerful than her desire for a healthy and happy M. She is committed right now to the "worse" in for better or worse. I lived the worse with her and committed to it as well and that was our undoing...
What I have committed to now is the better. The better for me which may bring the better for our M and the better for her if she chooses it.
We enter a M with the highest expectations and hopes that everything will eventually be perfect and happy. So we pursue PERFECT.
We move down the road...and then things of course don't turn out perfect...
I believe my salvation is in what I do with my imperfect M and my imperfect life..
True
Your posts sound good IMO.
I don't really want to invest in any romantic type relationship right now.
What is the LBS supposed to do?
I guess the only way that I can answer this question is...Are you still really standing for your W? A couple of questions that you may want to ask yourself..1)How will this impact your current R? 2) What DO YOU really want in your life right now? 3)Will this help or hurt you? Only you can answer these questions. I would say it is normal to flirt and boost the ego - I know I have. Having said this, when will True really find TRUE...when will True know that it is time. Look inside buddy I think you know the answer. It may be something that you do not want to face right now and that is okay but you do know the answer.
Regarding your family....their emotions are to be expected. You cannot change them but YOU can control how you deal and interact with them. At the end of the day I believe everyone should be respectful towards each other. My in laws adore me and I them. Will this change in the future? Who knows. Take it day by day. Allow your family to vent just do not add fuel to the fire. Just listen.
I have learned and accepted that my W did not make decisions to hurt me.
A very good place to be. Very good. Sound like forgiveness. I have to assume that these feeling may change in the future i.e. you may feel differently one day and then go back to understanding. I think this is a process but I have to tell you I like where you are right now.
What I have committed to now is the better.
Fu**ing A man! You are committed to the better. A better you..a better life.
Spot on - If she chooses...you cannot choose for her but you can choose to live the better life for YOU.
I believe my salvation is in what I do with my imperfect M and my imperfect life
Well said my friend...well said...
God Bless,
Eric
Eric
I cannot express how grateful I am to be here and to have the wise people here steer me through this journey. But most of all I am grateful to have people like you who are on this journey with me...and are living it as I live it...
I identify so much with what you're going through and posting right now. Thank you for listening and being there.
I am gaining clarity and strength every day. I feel more hope than I have ever felt since my M began to fail.
I will be in a much better place however this plays out.
I know that in my heart.
OK
W has been reaching out to me. Email yesterday. The phone call today.
Her mother left to go home this a.m. after 4 months. She has stopped taking meds cause she can't afford it. She has no money and is telling me this and starts to cry. I tell her I'm sorry she having diificulty and say if you need anything call me and end the convo. I wasn't expecting that and I had someone in the car with me so couldn't talk anyway.
I was concerned about it all day and I called her back to tell her I didn't mean to end our conversation so abruptly that I had someone with me.
We start talking she gets into how she doesn't want to fall into deep depression we talk about my sis etc. I start to feel like I'm getting dragged into the drama...so I stop her...
Say I can't talk about this with you it is very emotional and I get upset about your sitch and our relationship isn't in a place where I feel comfortable with this...BOUNDARY
Mad-I shouldn't talk to you then about this- I don't understand why did you call me?
I didn't you called me and you started crying this a.m. and I was just calling you back cause I couldn't talk....
I say I don't know what you want from me. What am I supposed to do for you what can I do as your husband?
W:I don't know I have to get on my own two feet and take care of myself...
TG:Well if we were in a different place...
W:Where?
TG:Well I mean if we were working on our M. If you were committed to working on our M...
W:I can't commit to our M right now
OUCH! I felt like I was trying to get her to move in some direction get something out of her and BAM I got what I asked for. I knew I f#cked up as soon as it was coming out of my mouth but I couldn't stop it. I try to recover and say I have been working real hard on this stuff and that my anger is going away.
W: I'm still angry. I don't know if I can trust you and I'm sure you can't trrust me.
TG: Well that's a start if you didn't feel anything I'd be worried
We talk for a while longer and she calms down I validated when I could and tell her again that I am committed to our M and if she wants to talk just call. If she needs anything just call.
I think we're hanging up and she says I love you just as I hang up the phone.
I was not prepared for this convo as you can tell. I have been in my detachment and just fine.
Now I am all f#cked up. Lesson learned DON'T TALK JUST LISTEN.
Listening isn't cake eating, but I felt like I was losing my detachment I was getting involved again...
I know I'm not through with the feelings about this but wanted to get the initial crap out ...
I read through my whole thread and I think I know what has to be done. I think i know my feelings and why yesterday felt horrible.
I have detached and she was dragging me back in. Her crutch just left(MOM) and she needed to know I was there.
I need to communicate my boundary better. I am thinking of sending her this
I know that you are having a difficult time and that you are scared. I know that you have to get through this your own way and I have no control over this.
I want you to know that I am committed to our M and what that means right now is that I am working on the only thing I have control over and that is ME. I am working toward a better ME so we may have a better US and a better M.
What I was trying to say yesterday that got all jumbled up was that I know there will be no US until you figure out YOU. You said that to me and I agree.
I will be here for you to listen and be your friend IF you are committed to this process. This process can't begin unless you have ended any and all other romantic relationships.
If you want to communicate with me this has to happen at the very least.
Until then, I remain your H until you tell me you want something else. I remain committed to our M. I remain committed to a better ME. That you can have trust and faith in.
Your Loving H
Thoughts? I will not send until I get some feedback. I have to do this. I can't cycle back through this emotional attachment unless we are headed somewhere and even then at a purposeful distance.
As long as she's in this A she is still deep in the tunnel.
I think you have given yourself great advice. Read what you wrote and follow your own advice.
But
I wouldn't send it to your wife. At least not now. Maybe at a future date she can read it.
Now will she look at it as controlling? or pressuring? Probably.
OP
I think you're right. I get it. I felt yesterday that I was sounding controlling and I felt like I was riding a bronco.
I just felt like I was getting drawn into the drama again. I wasn't prepared for it.
I was just a happy little LBS going along my merry way with my little detachment shield and ...
...thwack! Shot in the ass from behind.
I won't send anything and if she wants to talk I'll just listen. Be the man I want to be and LISTEN. Not put forth my own time agenda or ultimatums. LISTEN
SHUTUP
and LISTEN.
That's how I left it with her anyway. Told her if she wanted to talk. I'm here.
I read through my whole thread and I think I know what has to be done. I think i know my feelings and why yesterday felt horrible.
I have detached and she was dragging me back in. Her crutch just left(MOM) and she needed to know I was there.
I need to communicate my boundary better. I am thinking of sending her this
I know that you are having a difficult time and that you are scared. I know that you have to get through this your own way and I have no control over this.
I want you to know that I am committed to our M and what that means right now is that I am working on the only thing I have control over and that is ME. I am working toward a better ME so we may have a better US and a better M.
What I was trying to say yesterday that got all jumbled up was that I know there will be no US until you figure out YOU. You said that to me and I agree.
I will be here for you to listen and be your friend IF you are committed to this process. This process can't begin unless you have ended any and all other romantic relationships.
If you want to communicate with me this has to happen at the very least.
Until then, I remain your H until you tell me you want something else. I remain committed to our M. I remain committed to a better ME. That you can have trust and faith in.
Your Loving H
Thoughts? I will not send until I get some feedback. I have to do this. I can't cycle back through this emotional attachment unless we are headed somewhere and even then at a purposeful distance.
As long as she's in this A she is still deep in the tunnel.
Thoughts ?
Guilt...
Expectations...
Pressure...
And those were the good qualities.
You want her to say she F'ed up and wants to come home...
Not gonna happen right now...
It's okay to feel that way....
You encapsulated standing very nicely.....
Now...
Run your monitor through the shredder.....
Mach
I love the way you put things! I recognize now when I f*ck up. How?
I feel like sh*t... I read on another thread you posted.Unfortunately I read it today:
Memories=Pressure=Expectations=Guilt
...for not being the person she wants to be and for being the person who could do terrible things...and ME for reacting horribly to them.
I heard all that from her yesterday.
I was not ready for this. I have had NC with her. We rarely talk about this stuff. AS IT SHOULD BE. So I am not yet good at fielding these fast balls that come flying at my head.
Here is a visual that best describes what I did:
She's moving through the tunnel and decides to poke her head out of a hole into the light of day. I was standing there with a hammer and bopped her on the head. BAM!
Back into the tunnel....
I don't want her to say she f*cked up. I want her to say "I'm ready"
I am ready to end the A. That is what I am fixated on. I admit it...I don't want her to come home yet. I'm not ready for that.
Hi my names is Truegritter and my W is still having an A.
Thanks for letting me ramble because I just figured out my problem...I am hurt and maybe still ...angry that this is still continuing...
I don't feel it everyday because I don't talk to her (detached).
This is my next hurdle...a clear vision of the man I am becoming and want to be...with the courage to STAND alone...and faith for what that brings.
If I had this in my heart- yesterday would not have happened.
If I had this in my heart- yesterday would not have happened.
Yes it would have.....
After it DID happen.....
It shouldn't happen again.
I think I get you...I had to experience this to know how it feels...
Rather than talking my game... I had to live it.
Pain is wonderful teacher.
Rather than talking my game... I had to live it.
There was a farmer who had a dog, and....
and....
and...
What was that damned dog's name ?
B I N G O ! ? ! ? ! ?
I know that you are having a difficult time and that you are scared. I know that you have to get through this your own way and I have no control over this.
I want you to know that I am committed to our M and what that means right now is that I am working on the only thing I have control over and that is ME. I am working toward a better ME so we may have a better US and a better M.
What I was trying to say yesterday that got all jumbled up was that I know there will be no US until you figure out YOU. You said that to me and I agree.
I will be here for you to listen and be your friend IF you are committed to this process. This process can't begin unless you have ended any and all other romantic relationships.
If you want to communicate with me this has to happen at the very least.
Until then, I remain your H until you tell me you want something else. I remain committed to our M. I remain committed to a better ME. That you can have trust and faith in.
Your Loving H
Lots of I's in there.
Lots of them.
I could retire if mining I's was profittable.
LOL!
Jack, check your Gmail.
Allright Jack I(dammit another one!)... get the "I" part.
This is the same thing I heard last time I was going to communicate boundary to W...
The A makes you want to control, fix, manipulate why?
Because in the back of your mind,that part with the ego comes creeping up and says why are you letting her get away with this? Why are you standing there and letting her kick you in the cowboys?
Because with all the progress you have made you are still focusing on your own pain. But buddy if you just spent a minute in her skin you would know that you have no concept of pain. Real pain. HER PAIN.
And BINGO was his name!
Some how I think I am missing something...????
Vauge...I LIKE it.
Your wallet?
OK...think...where did you see it last?
Hmmmm.... Just here scratching my head...wondering...
Why I want to use "I" ...not sure where this came from but I think you said it Jack.
It had to do with entitlement.
We enter these doors with a sense of entitlement.
I=entitlement=my=mine
My M
My W
I hurt
I need
If I don't get MY way
MY pain is telling me I need boundaries, No contact because contact is painful.
But you have to come through this. You can cry and piss and moan about the pain and it all is from the WAS. They gave the pain. YOUR PAIN.
So you do what's normal you recoil from the pain. You get as far away from it as possible or you try to control the source of it.
MANIPULATE
CONTROL
COERCE
ENFORCE
But it is still there YOUR PAIN. Maybe it doesn't show up as often because there is nothing to trigger it but it's there YOUR PAIN. And are still giving you YOUR PAIN.
But it is yours YOUR PAIN. You can do whatever you want with it. You can give back to S. They don't want it. You can hide it somewhere. But you forget where you put it and one day you'll find it. Why not, since it's yours, why not just...
... throw it away. Then you realize is it really that easy? I can just throw it away? Why did I hang on to it for so long? Hey why did I let someone give it to me? Why did I accept this pain?
Because you're ENTITLED to it.
I don't need boundaries to protect me when I can just throw the pain away. Hell I won't even take the pain. It is my choice to accept it in the first place...
I think I am moving to a new understanding thanks to you folks and my experience. All this crap we show up with ALL OF IT...we have control over and the sooner we realize that we do then the pain can go away...and YOU can make the choice what's best for YOU and then stand calmly...
confidently...
with dignity and grace...
and faith in yourself...
... and with knowledge...
for
...what you believe.
Grit....
You got all of that from one scratch of the head ?
Good lord......Don't bump it on anything.....
: )
Grit..
Great spot in your own head to be in....
You came from a place of self doubt, and crossed the bridge into self realization....
Somewhere in the middle, is the eye of the storm....
Safest place to be to protect that Noggin.....
All this crap we show up with ALL OF IT...we have control over and the sooner we realize that we do then the pain can go away...and YOU can make the choice what's best for YOU and then stand calmly...
Once you realize that you are doing this because you WANT to...
You got it Grit.
This is all you...even the painful parts it takes to learn that...everything is all your choice, your control.
I talked to W last week and forgot to mention she has reached out to my sis who is also in MLC and living away from H and kids and in an A. They had a falling out a year or so ago so I think this is a good development.
After last weeks "Control" convo from my part I sent W this:
I just wanted to say that as you move through this difficult time and try to find your way, that I will be here for whatever you need. If you need an ear I will listen. I will just LISTEN. I do have hopes that we can someday come back together and sometimes I let that desire get the better of me. Please understand that it is not meant to upset you when I try to make this happen. I don’t mean to push but sometimes I do. I am learning more patience every day. Every day I get a little stronger… and a little better.
I know it may be difficult for you to ask me to help but I want to say that if you need ANYTHING you can ask and it will come with NO strings. I am still your husband and still want to be. I know that for us to make it you have to make it on your own first. And when you look in the mirror and like who you see I hope you see me STANDING next to you. And that you want me there…
Your husband,
W sent this back:
I received you message, thank you very much. I truly appreciate your honesty and hope you know that no matter what happens between us that I do care very deeply for you. Please know that I am still very fearful and cautious about EVERYTHING in my life at this point. More than anything I am happy to know that we are forgiving each other for the past. It is very hard to ask for help, especially when there is fear of being refused or rejected. Let catch up next week.
xo
I don't know how I missed it but I never read the stages of MLCer by HB. My sitch is little confusing because I think I met W as she was entering denial and when we were apart when she lived in LA she told me she was in deep depression and couldn't leave her condo. Not sure and not sure it matters I know she is in replay now but I am seeing her coming to more self realizing POV. After reading the stages I was surprised at my own journey tracking the LBS's mentioned there as well. In some cases describing my own awakening in very similar terms as HB.
I really think I am in the right place now. I can definitely recognize rescuing and control when I feel and/or act on it. I feel completely detached now, I have no desire to contact her like I use to and now just wait for her to come out to me. She always seems to end her contact with me with "i'll talk to you later or let's catch up ..." Which is a change.
Anyway just catching up on my journaling and updating things for ya'll.
I'll be here patiently standing by...
Gritt, you commented on my thread and I have been reading your thread, and was wondering what you thought I should do. You contacted your W, should I contact my H and tell him that I didn't mean what I said on the text about only wanting M to work for our D13?
I think he knew I was waiting for him until I did stop contact for a couple of weeks and that's when he asked D13 if she liked my boyfriend and she said Mommy doesn't have a boyfriend. So I think he was guessing I had someone because I wasn't contacting him.
But now like you said I (we) messed up with what we do sometimes should I make it right? Do I contact him like you did your W above? I don't know what to do.
True - I am learning a great deal from your thread. Thank you Man. Thank you.
God Bless,
Eric
Grit- I am still following your post. xxx
Lola! Where have you been? I hope things a going well for you. I haven't seen that you've posted for a while.
It's good to take a break...I'll check your thread and visit you over there.
I need to sort something out.
I had a long talk with my best friend's W with whom I have a very good relationship. I have talked with her about W and our sitch in the past. Going back to when I was still with W.
She expressed concern for me and I explained what I was doing standing for my M. Told her W was having a very difficult time with transition at this point in her life basically describing her MLC. Finished by saying that these are not excuses for her behavior but they are reasons.
First response was you can't fix her.
I know that I already tried that...she has to fix herself.
Ok I'm going to challenge you on this and I don't want you to get offended. You are one of the best men I have ever met and you deserve to be happy. I am concerned that she has a problems that can't be fixed like maybe mental/emotional problems I don't know I'm not a doctor. I think she is extremely narcissistic. I don't think she is capable of being the kind of woman that you can be happy with. I'm sorry I am just being honest.
Where I am in this journey I am on is about me and my healing. Do I want my M. Yes. And I am not going to be unfaithful to my vows or disrespect my W or M. I don't know how long I will decide to do this. But that is my choice. I am going to ask you to trust that I am doing the best thing for me and that I will make choices that are the best for me. If W decides she wants the M then we begin a very difficult task of repairing our M. That would include me seeing very significant changes in her.
I see that you are very confident and you sound very sure and healthy about this.
End of convo
It did start a little self doubt in me. Everyone around me sees the problems W has and are very worried and concerned that I would choose to remain with her. She has been acting like an alien since before we got married.
Am I just blinded by love for this woman? When she is not acting out, when we are together alone or at home she is a very loving caring and stable person but am I just trying to make excuses or convince myself of somehting that I am afraid to admit?
Is this MLC or is she going to be this way forever?
The only thing I can say to myself is that I truly believe that there is so much more inside her than she is currently showing. She has shown me that in the past but it is less and less now that she is full blown MLC. Problem is most of the interaction with friends and family she has had incidents of alien behavior.
Her career and self image was based on her looks so she can appear narcissistic and self absorbed because quite frankly right now she is.
I don't know what I am asking here I guess just journaling and I think the answer is I will know if and when I get there whether I see a person I think is capable of being happy and leading an emotionally healthy life with me.
Right now that person isn't there. But who knows where her journey will take her....
After a week of nothing from W she texted me this morning to say she was going over to a fried of our house for M Day. Said she misses Dog and on day like today cause he's like our kid. Said she's trying to hang in there.
I texted her back that Dog said happy mother's day WOOF! Corny but she liked it. And that was it...
I just have this feeling she is trying to break through the fog. I might be just wishful thinking but I don't really attach anything to it. It's more just a feeling than I painful emotion.
That's all for now...
W texted again this evening to tell me she and my MLC sis have been trading phone calls and that sis was going to dinner with LBS BIL and she hoped they would have a good time.
I texted back That was good and I knew sis and H were having dinner tonight and said I was praying for them.
Then followed: and for us too... I probably shouldn't have sent the last part I know. I just thought of it and I blurted it out if you can do that on a text????
Got no response but thought it was good she texted twice in one day and I hadn't talked to her in over a week. The last time she called me. I am still not initiating contact. Also not sure what her reaching out to my sis means. I guess I'll know when I'm supposed to know.
Just being the happy old Truegritter...
Thanks for listening.
Journaling...
Woke up early this morning after a dream...not sure of details of the dream which is how dreams go I guess.
I just remember I was looking for W and it was dark, late at night, at a place like a club or hotel on the water, no one has seen W keep asking everyone, she hasn't called I look at my phone.
Then somehow I am in the water swimming toward a channel which goes toward the end of the hotel. The water gets more swift as I approach it and I'm a little frightened and then I start to feel the bottom under my feet...
The water runs into a dock-like structure and I begin to walk on the dock which leads back to the hotel but as I walk the dock gets narrower and then the planks become fatrher apart, smaller still and I can't keep my balance. Then I realize they stop alltogether and I have to get in the water again to make it over to the hotel, where I think W is. Where is W? I don't know I am worried and why hasn't she tried to contact me?
I wake up...
The dream reminds me of the feelings I have with W. She is caught up somewhere and doesn't care or can't see that I am trying to find her. She is so consumed with herself she doesn't undertsand or have the presence to care about my feelings. She is self absorbed. Our relationship is all me and has been for some time. I put the energy in she just takes it. Only responding to me but rarely initiating an unselfish or caring act.
She is like a child before it learns to share or sharing only because it has been told it's right. Her circumstance is all- consuming she has no room for another person.
I realize now that where she is I cannot be with her. Only if and only when she can see outside herself and see me as part of herself, as part of a whole relationship can I come back into this and engage in repairing our M.
This understanding brings more peace to my journey. I realize this has to take it's own course. It has its own time.
I just need to stand patiently and wait on the shore...where it is safe. Where I am not caught in the current.
Gritt,
Thanks for wishing me a Happy Mother's Day!
Gritt, you've got all of the above correct. They are so selfish. I wrote on my thread about Mother's Day. My D13 was upset because of course she didn't have any money and was with H the night before until 10:00 in the morning on Mother's Day and didn't even ask her if she wanted to get me a card from her.
I'm glad that you are more at peace with your journey. And you are right we can't do anything but sit and wait and not get caught up in their stuff.
Update. W texted me about passing my real estate exam. She knew I was taking the test from earlier communications. Nice exchange said I could handle any buyers for house if she wanted and since we are still M I would pass through the commission.
I playfully said we are still M?
She said we are deliberately not divorced.
I said I like that! She had said for a while she wanted to get her real estate license and so brought that up. I had offered way back when to pay for her to get the license she asked if I would still.
I said yes. I figured it was something I offered so not following through would not be consistent.
I also said that we need to talk about things don't you think?
She said yes we need to talk. She said I am not healthy right now and that is not good for our M. I said I understand but that I married for better or worse, sickness and health.I don't need to hear anything other than we are both working toward the same goal. We both got off track on that but it was important to start fresh.
Told her I would send over stuff on real estate which I did last evening and haven't heard from her since.
I feel like I am getting dragged in again. I stay detached with no contact and then she breaks in and we talk a little bit. I don't have any expectations but I feel like everytime I talk to her I get f*cked up. I get impatient all over again. It is just a big pile of WTF?
She resists anything I say with regards to trying to understand where we are headed. Honestly if she just said I want our M but we need time apart that would be all I need right now. I don't think we need to be together right now. I am not ready and she is not either. I just can't handle the limbo.
Or the limbo of her pulling me in when she wants to. It is beginning to get to me. I notice way more now what it does to me.
I think when she contacts me again I need to tell her
You have been trying to tell me in your own way that you are not ready to say you want our M. You have said this to me directly and indirectly over the past 3 months. I did not want to hear that so I have been trying to be patient in hopes of hearing something different from you.
I want you to know I hear you. I will pay for your real estate school as I said I would.
I will respect your decision about us and I will not contact you unless it is something we need to talk about to manage our affairs. I would ask that you do the same.
I am sad about this but I understand.
Your H
I think this is a boundary I need to set and I am comfortable with either outcome. Either way I will be fine.
I am much better when I am totally detached and if we are going to talk then I have to know that our M is the goal.
No more putting energy into LIMBO for me it saps me emotionally and pulls me back on MY journey.
I know I have been here before and I am back here again and it always is a result of W little by little pulling me back in with no commitment from her.
Thoughts from my wise audience?
What makes me so lucky?
Just having a bout of doubt...
I think when she contacts me again I need to tell her
You have been trying to tell me in your own way that you are not ready to say you want our M. You have said this to me directly and indirectly over the past 3 months. I did not want to hear that so I have been trying to be patient in hopes of hearing something different from you.
I want you to know I hear you. I will pay for your real estate school as I said I would.
I will respect your decision about us and I will not contact you unless it is something we need to talk about to manage our affairs. I would ask that you do the same.
I am sad about this but I understand.
Your H
I read your post this morning and I was hoping someone else would answer but IMHO do not send this letter.
I know it is what you would like to say but I do not think it is a good idea.
NC is better left unsaid. It is its own form of communication.
Your actions can do everything that was said in the letter without actually transmitting it.
Thats my .02
I either say what I said up there or I cannot have contact with her.
I am not trying to control her I am trying to control me.
Does that make sense?
I feel like I'm stuck.
I say to stay NC, just do it, don't tell her.
OP thanks
My post got cut off.
The first part was I was not going to send a letter. It just when she contacts me I get pulled in. I 'm detached and then I get attached after these brief interludes of communication.
What do i do when she contacts me? and she will, it happens-and i allow it.
The rest is ^^^
Grit,
So you are saying that there is no middle ground for you there.
There is nothing between Gilligan's Island and the Brady Bunch for you....
I'm still tryin to figure out exactly how real estate ties into a relationship talk.
THAT is what is keeping you stuck my friend.
You either allow, or initiate them at almost every opportunity.
Between light and dark is the balance.
She is coming to you some, yet you push things when she does.
What would happen if she could talk to you about anything, and you wouldn't mention the fact that you are married ?
Be her friend for now, and quit taking her temperature...
Capiche ?????
Grit, you get this , right ?
This monster called MLC ?
It is evident from your posts to others......
Now implement that knowledge that you have.....
Ever see the movie "Tin Cup " ?
When he hits the ball in the water 11 times ?
And Cheech tells him that this is the last ball in the bag ?
Cup says " I can make that shot.."
And Cheech says.." then stop F-ing around a do it !!! "
Grit, stop F-ing around and do it......
( I was kinda hopin that you would get this on your own...SMACK )
What do i do when she contacts me? and she will, it happens-and i allow it.
Validate, what she says, cut the conversation short and don't get swallowed up by the vacum cleaner. Until you are detached enough to have the conversation, or she acts differently.
You either allow, or initiate them at almost every opportunity.
Yes I do. I start out great and she says something that makes me want to draw a line in the sand. It is her cake eating I have a problem with. I am trying to be her friend but I am still not scabbed over enough to get myself through it. It is still hitting a nerve...
...and like I said I'm fine when I'm not in contact with her. And I guess it's not that bad it only happens every 7 days or so. Not bad at all when you consider ....like root canal or something.
Grit, you get this , right ?
Yes I get it in my head. I just forget in the moment usually because I don't know when it's coming.
Grit, stop F-ing around and do it......
That is what I needed to hear...
OP thanks. That is how I have to handle it.
I do like what she said to me:
"We are deliberately NOT divorced."
It is kind of like that not dark/ not light paradox
Right in the F*cking middle.
Truegritter are you married?
No.
I am deliberately not divorced.
Grit....
Why do you say she is cake eating ?
Stop putting the buttons out there and making it so easy for her to push them.....
That stops a lot of MLC BS...
You are allowing her to spin you out, she knows it, you know it, hell, I bet the Pope knows it....
Take your buttons and hide them , just like you did your crayons in kindergarten.
Just because you don't know it's coming doesn't excuse you from doing better...
This should be a different Grit making these impromptu choices...
I bet the Pope knows it....
I bet John Paul Two would. Not this new guy he's clueless.
Just because you don't know it's coming doesn't excuse you from doing better...
You are absolutely right how many times do i have to run into a wall to figure out it's there?
How many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop?
Just trying to keep to your reference to 70's era pop culture.
You probably know all the Schoolhouse Rock too right?
Thanks Mach I needed this.
How many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop?
Let's see.....
A one....
Twwwoooooo..
A Thrrrrreeee....
CRUNCH !!!
Thrrrrreeeee !!!!
I'd post a link , 'cept Boat would be around......
That is funny sh!t
I had some time to sleep on it. The cake eating is she is still in A with OM.
I know I should let this run its course but that is really what is sticking in my craw.
That is why I take her temperature. That is why a convo about me paying for her real estate school prompts me to say...
...we need to talk.
I don't need her to come back I just can't involve myself with her when I know someone else in the picture.
THAT is where I am stuck.
It is the folcrum to this whole deal.
I know that this sitch is going nowhere until that happens.
I know I should let this run its course but that is really what is sticking in my craw.
Ahhhh......I forgot ..
The "but" makes you the exception....
Of course you are allowed then, if there is a "but"
That is why I take her temperature. That is why a convo about me paying for her real estate school prompts me to say...
...we need to talk.
Maybe it should prompt a different response...
One that doesn't involve a relationship talk...
Maybe....
That offer stood until we reached the point we are at right now.
I'm no longer comfortable with that decision as long as you are with another man.....That is a boundary that you set for you.
It covers more than the subject at hand.
Boundaries need to be clear, and concise. Easy to understand.
They also need to be for you.
Enforcing them is a must.
When (if) the subject comes up again, then you can revert back to the boundary.
When it comes to boundaries though....
You have to enforce them.
You have to be tactful
And you cannot lay them for just any lame a$$ reason.
And I'm gonna spend a nickel here....
Tact is the ability to tell somebody to go to hell, and they look forward to the trip.
True
Sorry for not keeping up dude - sorry..
I agree with Mach and I also understand how you may be feeling dude so don't sweat the pulling your back in that she did. Having said this...
As you know my W remains in a R with OM. I know how thoughts of the OM can really just piss you off. We say if OM is in the picture then I will not be...we make committments that we don't want to break..we want to be "men of our word" - we do. Only problem is deep down inside, we still want W, we still think that maybe we can do something (like be a man of our word) that will make them realize what they are throwing away. Guess what? We have no control over them buddy. You know this - I know this - We just need to keep reminding ourselves this.
Although we say that if OM is still in the picture we will not be. We know we need to set boundaries but we don't. Why? Deep down inside is a little fear...a little boy who does not want to let completely go and he is the one who refuses to set the boundaries that we know we need.
True - I think I am speaking to both of us when I say this... You have committed to paying for RE school/classes for you W, this is nobel and maybe you should continue to do it. Hell maybe I should continue to live up to the committments that I made to my W. IMO the question that you and I must answer is...what DO WE really want to do - fear, insecurities, and anger aside. What is the right thing to do? What is it that the MEN that we have become would do? Can you and I live up to the committments and expect nothing in return? When I mean nothing I mean...Not even a convo about the R. Not even some small crumb that we may need to give us some hope. Nope - NADA (hey I'm a Rican so had to have at least one spanish work). Can we do it because we love them? Do it because we love them enough to let them go. Cause once we truly let go, we will have no expectations. We will not have the fear...make that need...to have any R discussions.
You my friend are still an inspiration and hopefully you do not take my post the wrong way. Your the still the fu*king man.
God Bless,
Eric
Maybe it should prompt a different response...
One that doesn't involve a relationship talk...
Yes! That is it!
That offer stood until we reached the point we are at right now.
I'm no longer comfortable with that decision as long as you are with another man.....
This is how I feel.
Eric and Mach
Thank you both. This is where I am stuck.
Deep down inside is a little fear...a little boy who does not want to let completely go and he is the one who refuses to set the boundaries that we know we need.
Yes I recognize that fear and that is where I have come from. From my earlier post I feel I DO need this boundary to completely detach.
Can you and I live up to the committments and expect nothing in return? When I mean nothing I mean...Not even a convo about the R.
I will pay for the RE school for this very reason. I have come from a fixer/rescuer to being able to do this with no expectations. I truly can do this and walk away with love.
I recognize now when I am strong and when I stumble. I stumble when she engages me and pulls me into the emotions or hope that our life may be heading foward together...but i know that it can't ...
Until OM is gone. This HAS to be her choice. She has to realize that love is not the excitement of new relationships and that it was an escape from her problems. That HAS to happen for us to have a mature committed R.
I understand that.
She has to be the one to make the choice to return to this M and also to recognize that the old one is dead and understand its loss and what that means. She has to experience that and as long as I let LIMBO go on she won't.
She is creeping her way back to me right now. Testing the waters. She emailed yesterday that she thinks she has job. Then again last night she said she was going to call me but her phone was dead and emailed asking me how my day was. So she is starting to engage me on a regular basis. Every few days.
This has not happened before. She is initiating the contact. For now I will just listen I think. I know I will get sucked in by it but I will try not to but if I can't then I know I need my boundary.
I know I will get sucked in by it but I will try not to but if I can't then I know I need my boundary.
Grit....
Maybe THAT is the boundary....
They are for you ya know...
Oh crap.....I didn't see the "but"
Sorry dude, you are the exception again....
Where are the "but" police when one needs them ?
Are you on FB ?
And But and Or can get you pretty far!
Conjuntion, Junction what's your function?...
...to make ME the exception to the rules!
Yes I am on FB how do I get hooked in with the crew here so W can't get here or know? Should I create another account?
We are still M on FB. Oh my God there is hope! We're still M on FB! She hasn't de-husbanded me!
Yes I am on FB how do I get hooked in with the crew here so W can't get here or know? Should I create another account?
That is one way to do it.
Then become a fan of DB and tell us when you have done it.
Yes I am on FB how do I get hooked in with the crew here so W can't get here or know? Should I create another account?
Up to you...
I use mine for both,
BUT it is blocked at work and I am rarely on now.
A lot of peeps create a new one, using their DB name
I'll let OP take charge of finding you : )
I am on FB same name as my DB name.
True - try no to let her suck you in. Its hard dude I know. Just be friendly and loving but don't try and rescue her (I do the same dude so I understand). Just be her friend. Listen and then listen some more. Balance this with a little NC and you will be fine.
Now pick yourself up and keep freaking moving forward.
God Bless
Eric
hey Grit
Just letting you know that I am reading along. I see your W is reaching out more...don't undo all the hard work you have done. I am also not sure if you should be paying for her Real Estate license..I know that you made a commitment but....I think it is enabling a bit and might be some 'doormat' behavior going on. She broke the most important commitment ever- I am not saying you need to stoop to her level..but I just would hate for you to be taken advantage of. You are just getting back on your feet yourself....she needs to take the necessary actions to get herself back on her feet as well. Don't bail her out. Just my opinion.
Eric Thank you so much. We are so close on all this stuff you get what's going on EXACTLY.
Thank you.
Lola it makes a lot of sense what you say and it is always good to get a woman's POV.
I really don't think she will follow through with me paying, She doesn't really take advantage even when I am dumb enough to offer. This is strange stuff....
True -
Yeah i get it dude. I go thru a lot of the same emotions man. Everytime I see her my heart still screams out. I still have moments where I want to shake her and tell her it is going to be okay and they I still love her. I want to tell her that we can work on this. Then I realize that she is gone...gone..she is on her own journey.
Reading your post I see some similarities. My W is pretty cordial, does not appear to be taking advantage of me. Does not argue, is not really a spender. The bottom line for both you and I (IMO of course)....is right now they feel the do not or cannot be with us. You and I need to realize that we cannot make them "feel it". We cannot make them realize how much we love them. You and I both know what we need to do...what we CAN do...which is.
GROW, LEARN, fix our own issues, detach and be them for them when we can. Not as enablers not as fixers but as MEN that love them. MEN that are so confident in who we are and what we stand for. MEN who finally know that WE control our destiny. Remember - we decide when it is over. We do!
Not sure what type of music you listen to. Personally, I am a big Creed fan. Listen to the song "TIME" on thier latest album...
"heads down your no friend of mine"...that right dude. Pick yourself up. Allow yourself to feel your love for her..then keep living.
God Bless,
Eric
Hi TG
Until OM is gone. This HAS to be her choice. She has to realize that love is not the excitement of new relationships and that it was an escape from her problems. That HAS to happen for us to have a mature committed R
We all know this yet we all struggle to find that balance of how to best relate to WS in the mean time.
Eric - great post, very insightful, resonates my feelings... accept in my case it is gender reversed.
I don't know what this means.
W called yesterday. Started telling me all this stuff that waas going on. Said everything is falling apart. Dishwasher is broken now. Air condtitoner is broken and she doesn't have money to fix anything. She did get the job but not real happy with it. It was just a pity party and then we both started laughing about it because it is so bad you HAVE to laugh.
That's how it started and then I said so now what?
She launched into all the struggles we've had since the beginning. She doesn't think she wants it. Can't think of being around my family or friends with what she did and how I reacted to it. Was mad about everybody in town knowing becasue of me when I left. Is pissed and embarrased. Mad that I am doing well and insulated from all the troubles she having. Leaned on her mother. Doesn't want to anymore. I tried to just listen.
She said "you think I have boyfriends and I don't" She said she may move out of state...etc.
I said so that's it? She got upset and said she couldn't talk about this now. I said I would like it if we talk face to face and suggested I come over sometime... she said not tonight cause she was heading out. That was weird I didn't say I would tonight??
I don't know what all this means I think she is really starting to think about everything and is now trying to reconcile the damage she has caused. She is still blaming me and angry with me. But that might not be a bad thing. At least it is something and she's talking about it which means she's thinking things through.
I texted her after and said: i know you have doubts and that things seem hopeless for us but I have really come so far. Please trust me when I say I am not the man I was. Don't give up on us. I haven't... even after everthing.
I don't know may be just poking her head out of the tunnel.
I've read this twice, and still, missed the part where you made her feel like her feelings were valid. (Even with my glasses on )
I DID however, see the part where you made light of her fears and feelings.
And the guilt...
And the pursuit...
And the focus on her...and how that affects you...
Her confusion is good Grit, her doubting her actions is good.
I'm not against an MLCer having guilt, I am however against guilt that is caused directly by the LBS.
Really Grit ?
Really ?
I'm not against an MLCer having guilt, I am however against guilt that is caused directly by the LBS.
Mach, while I totally agree with you maybe you could explain what happens when the LBS does this. Does it prolong the time in the tunnel? Or is it just cruel?
I'm not against an MLCer having guilt, I am however against guilt that is caused directly by the LBS.
Mach, while I totally agree with you maybe you could explain what happens when the LBS does this. Does it prolong the time in the tunnel? Or is it just cruel?
In a nutshell....
Throughout their time in this, we are taught that most of what they say, we are not supposed to believe.
Exception being, the things that sting, those are the things that have some truth to them.
Those are the things we work on. The MLCer, on the other hand, is LOOKING for a reason to make us the bad guy.
WE are the reason they have to get out.
When direct guilt is applied to them, we are actually validating the reasons they want to get away.
We come across as the martyr to them, or the person that can do no wrong.
We have done the work ( or most of us have )
That , in itself, pi$$es them off.
Not only are we a better person for what we have gone through. They notice that as well, and are not happy with their choice.............. ( Most know that it is wrong , but can do nothing to stop it, Hence their own guilt)
US......rubbing that in to their faces....
Well, you can imagine how YOU would feel....
So essentially, if we can step back, and just remain still, and let nature take its course, we are in a much better position to actually be better instead of spouting off that we are.
Nothing we can say will bring them out of the tunnel any faster than they are moving naturally....
But we sure as hell can keep them there by what we say...
We HAVE to remember that this is THEIR crisis, and act accordingly.
Thanks guys.
I know my response was a bit guilt laden. That was the only part of the convo I regreted- saying that.
For the most part it was a pleasant exchange and I did just listen. It seems the theme was her resentment of me for how much easier she feels it has been for me through this process.
She sent a text this a.m. that is going to call me this evening.
Mach I know I just hit another ball in the water...I have to be really careful of reacting to wht she is saying to me becasue she is just spewing at me sometimes and she doesn't see her part in it. Her anger is emotion and that IS progress.
I too am still angry I think. That's why I react. I have to process this or I won't be able to talk to her without f#cking up.
I have to be really careful of reacting to wht she is saying to me
Grit....
Why do you think you react this way ?
Which one of you IS reacting this way....????
The you that you used to be ?
Or the you that you aspire to be ?
Yes I am on FB how do I get hooked in with the crew here so W can't get here or know? Should I create another account?
Grit hows this going?
True
Said everything is falling apart.
Yes everything is falling apart. Why? Cause she is running!
She did get the job but not real happy with it.
Is she going to be happy about anything? Really - the only way SHE will find her happiness is by finally dealing with the issues at hand and than my friend you CANNOT help with. Oh..I'm sure you do think you help. Hell I still do but the reality is the only way for us to help is for US to become WHOLE again.
This is good...you had a chance to show her that YOU are happy.
Was mad about everybody in town knowing becasue of me when I left.
That is why we are not suppose to tell everyone what is going on. It make it that much difficult to reconcile later. She now is probably worried about what everyone is going to say if she decides to reverse course. You know what though...this is also her issue not yours. She owns it dude. IMO - if she really wants this to work then it really will not matter what anyone says. For mer personally, I want someone in my life that can stand on her own convictions.
Good.
I don't know what all this means I think she is really starting to think about everything and is now trying to reconcile the damage she has caused.
Yes it could be. Sounds like you are being sucked back in. Sounds like the old True can come in an save the day. Sounds like the True sees some hope and now is going full steam ahead.
i know you have doubts and that things seem hopeless for us but I have really come so far. Please trust me when I say I am not the man I was. Don't give up on us. I haven't... even after everthing.
Damn dude...why not just be open and honest and say..honey I am affraid..the chld in me is not readty to let go yet. So sweetie all you need to do is give me a crumb or two. Just know that I am here waiting for it.
True - your words to her may have been warranted...but honestly dude, why would you have text this? Seriously, why would you text something so deep and personal? Ask yourself this question..Sit still for a second..f-that make it an hour. Look inside you and ask why did you do this.
True - what is hope?
You are better than this man...
Look man.. I know you love this women..I know you want your R to work. Hell I do as well…but seriously we do not need to remind them of the work that we are doing. We do not need to remind them of the men that we have become. We do not. Do you know why?
Do you??? BECAUSE it does not matter. We become the MEN we are because WE wanted to. We do not need another person to acknowledge this. Does it make us feel good? Yes, should we expect it from our other half – NO.
By reminding her of the changes you have made you pretty told her that she could not see it…so YOU decided to help her. She does not need your help – she will see it or she will not.
Dude sorry for being hard on you man…that is not my intent but you need to examine why you need her validation.
Keep becoming the man that you are. Keep it up. I believe it but even I do not matter. YOU my friend…only YOU matter. YOU need to like who you have become.
God Bless,
Eric
Op
I'm going to set up a seperate account on FB I haven't done that yet. Willl let you know whe I do.
Guys
Thanks for the lumber. Yesterday was just inevitable as I read back over my posts. It is something I could have avoided if i was in a better place but i wasn't and am not- YET.
..honey I am affraid..the chld in me is not readty to let go yet. So sweetie all you need to do is give me a crumb or two. Just know that I am here waiting for it.
Totally right. When she started in on me and what I had done I got defensive. This is EXACTLY how I feel.
I haven't had much experience with this kind of convo with her yet becasue she has slowly started to contact me and the content is more angry and accusatory.
When she said she was thinking of moving out of state that just crushed me. That was the one that stung. That's what made me send the text....
I have some reflection to do and thinking to get myself through this and to a better place.
Stand up dust off.
You ain't one of the lost, don't be acting like it.
Be your own hero and example.
Why do you think you react this way ?
Which one of you IS reacting this way....????
The you that you used to be ?
Or the you that you aspire to be ?
I can quote myself too....
Look, "I knows" are only gonna take you so far....
LOOK DEEPER than a casual observer here Grit....
Glossing over the mirror work is what "buts" are made of...
Nut up and ask yourself the hard questions.
Real growth comes from real reflection.
Somewhere in the middle leaves you the Mayor of Stucktown, running for senate in the state of Bitterville...
Do the work Grit.....
Thanks Jack.
You're right I am not lost, I know better.
I just got stop f#cking around and do it.
Nut up and ask yourself the hard questions.
The tough one is that I struggled making a living and was "stuck" myself.
She was a in a worse place and so all the attention went on her and I didn't see what was happening to me. I got lost. I gost depressed. I got angry. I reacted badly to all the crap she was pulling. I regret it.
I have been struggling to get myself back to earning a decent living. A living that can support me and my family which is W. I felt inadequate and she brought it up yesterday-the fact that I have been struggling with my business since we've been together. I told her that it is different now, I am making money-
She pointed out I still live with my parents. This is true.
THAT is the crap I've been glossing over. It hurts to hear that from her because she's right. THAT is MY part in this. That is the old wound she opened up yesterday.
As long as I carry this around...I will be stuck.
I have to forgive myself first then I can truly be the stronger one of us.
Right now all she has to do is hit me with how I acted when this was going on and I'm a gonner. I am seeking validation through her.
I have to do this for ME. This is where my self doubt still lies. Lies to myself. That is the "nut up" question. That is my achilles heel.
Thank you for asking.
So....It's out there....
How are you going to deal with it?
What options do you have?
Look Grit, I'm not trying to put tacks in your saddle here...
Did your job , and money define who you were/are as a person ?
True
She was a in a worse place and so all the attention went on her and I didn't see what was happening to me.
We never see what is happening to us cause we are looking at them. We are looking at how to fix them, how to be heros, we NEED to do this because we need the validation. I'm just as guilt so don't feel alone in this.
I felt inadequate and she brought it up yesterday
Notice the "I"...you felt it. Did she say you were "inadequate"? No but you felt it. Feelings dude, as you know go and come. They change over time. WE CONTROL these feelings.
I have to forgive myself first then I can truly be the stronger one of us.
This my friend is HARD. You probably still spend some time thinkging about your role in this. You feel guilt. You feel remorse. Take these feelings and apply the energy to how you can fix it. Forgivness comes from GOd and it comes free of charge. Question for you is can you just accept it. Can you accept his grace and forgivness. Don't look for everyone to forgive you - that is up to them. As you have said focus on forgiving yourself. I think this takes time...a lot of time...another reason why the work we do goes on forever.
This is where my self doubt still lies. Lies to myself
.
That fu*king doubt... I hate it! It is in us though...can we carve it out.. can we kill it...or should we accepta it and learn how to deal with it. Is it lies or is it FEAR?
You can do this...you can reach deeper - I know you can.
Eric
Nut up and ask yourself the hard questions.
The tough one is that I struggled making a living and was "stuck" myself.
She was a in a worse place and so all the attention went on her and I didn't see what was happening to me. I got lost. I gost depressed. I got angry. I reacted badly to all the crap she was pulling. I regret it.
Grit,
This is what you did. This is something you are changing.
She pointed out I still live with my parents. This is true.
So do you plan on living there forever?
Somehow I doubt that.
So is this really what the wound is?
Right now all she has to do is hit me with how I acted when this was going on and I'm a gonner. I am seeking validation through her.
Stop living in the past.
Or you will be stuck.
Grit,
As a female, I don’t know if I can completely relate with the whole “supporter of the family” thing that men go through.
How it relates to their self esteem…
However, I can tell you, you could have a million dollars…
And that does NOT make you a better person than the garbage collector…
Dig deep Grit, it is hard, but you can do it…
We all have tons and tons of layers…
Don’t quit now..
When we start lying to ourselves...we are fukced.
When we start believing those lies, we have failed.
It is that simple.
Thank you all.
God I know when I am getting ready to move through another big growth spurt. I feel it coming intuitively. That's what I was posting last week. This sh!t was lying there just under the surface.
I have been very successful in business and I was in a new business that I started about 5 years ago and it was struggling. She couldn't work and we were in survival mode. It was Lazlo's heirarchy of needs we were really just trying to survive.
I have been self employed for 15 years so it was difficult for me to just -go get a job.
That's where she is right now survival- no money, can't even barely keep the electricity on. So she looks at me and knows I am finally turning it around largley due to work I've done here. So....
...she is resentful and angry now...and it's coming out of both barrels at me.
I didn't really know until today that this is my sticking point.
I'm digging, digging, digging...I hope I'm not digging a hole.
Cat thanks for coming by I hope you'll hang around... could use the perpective from the other gender.
As you can see we have all the testosterone we need around here.
I am not quitting! I want this for ME. I CAN be a better man. I know I am a BETTER man already.
Thank you for the insight and encouragement.
I'm not sure that Mach contributes to the testosterone level...fyi. : )
LMFAO! God you wear one pink shirt huh Mach?
You know T, I used to wish I had a magic pill to give to everyone to get to where they need to be without having to go through all the steps. And then I realized, you gotta go through the steps. No short cuts, no way around it.
The key to this is this. You've got to figure out what it is about you that you want to change and that includes things that you would have done differently in your marriage.
Once you have that figured out - each day, wake up and be that person. The one you would feel good to be. The man you would be proud of.
Try to live each day with dignity and honor and strength. Make your decisions with those characteristics in mind.
I promise you, that eventually, you will become that person.
Here's the other key. Do it all without thinking about who you think your wife wants you to be. That doesnt matter. It's who you want to be.
When dealing with your wife, remember the characteristics and be the person YOU want to be.
We have to live our lives everyday liking who we see in the mirror.
So, you can't change what you did or didn't say to your wife in that conversation. It's over and done with. But, you can learn from it.
And if you don't, then you can be angry with yourself. Right now, you did the best you could with the tools you had at the time. Next time, you'll do better because you know better.
This is tough stuff. Looking at oneself honestly and digging in and making the changes aint for the faint of heart.
But, oh boy, when you get there, it's life changing. It's invigorating. I promise.
So, think about you. What kind of person do you want to be?
Then get to gettin' on being that person.
She couldn't work and we were in survival mode. It was Lazlo's heirarchy of needs we were really just trying to survive.
I have been self employed for 15 years so it was difficult for me to just -go get a job.
That's where she is right now survival- no money, can't even barely keep the electricity on. So she looks at me and knows I am finally turning it around largley due to work I've done here. So....
...she is resentful and angry now...and it's coming out of both barrels at me.
So how do envision moving past this ?
For YOU ? F her for now man.....for YOU ?
A little quote that gets used around here often...
Actions.....not words.
You are never gonna talk your way out of something you acted your way into.
I didn't really know until today that this is my sticking point.
I'm digging, digging, digging...I hope I'm not digging a hole.
One usually has to , so that they can find deep answers....
Now that you know....
There are no excuses for that part of you again....
No "buts"
No " I know"
No " I coulda"
No " I shoulda"
No " I will"
Just ....Do better Grit...
Did OP find you yet ?
I have been self employed for 15 years so it was difficult for me to just -go get a job.
I actually do understand THIS. I have been self employed for 10+ years, there are days, when I long to go “just get a job”, but the drawbacks…
We do what we have to Grit…
Cat thanks for coming by I hope you'll hang around... could use the perpective from the other gender.
As you can see we have all the testosterone we need around here.
Be careful what you ask for Grit…
I tend to be the “angry blond” and the “playground bully”, or the ten foot tall Cat that will eat you with out blinking an eye…
All said with love of course…Actually makes me smile…
So…
Might not get that female perspective you are looking for but I can try…
I don’t tend to do girly really well…
Just ask…
Go ahead say "But" one more time...
the ten foot tall Cat that will eat you with out blinking an eye…
True, Cat just tells it like she sees it. She may seem tough on the outside, but, on the inside she's one of the best there is. And she'll always have your back.
True, dont believe Cat. She may come off a little tough, but, she's one of the best on the inside. She tells it like she sees it, but, she'll have your back, too.
Brooklyn,
Thank you my friend. You always manage to make me tear up...
Girly enough?
I'm not sure that Mach contributes to the testosterone level...fyi. : )
lmfao !!
LMFAO! God you wear one pink shirt huh Mach?
Yes....And J3B is jealous...
He threatened to come to the east coast, kick me with his Purple Pirate boot and take it from me though....
: )
Brooklyn...Darling....It is so nice to read your words of wisdom around here again....
; )
Brook
Here's the other key. Do it all without thinking about who you think your wife wants you to be. That doesnt matter. It's who you want to be.
I like this^^^ This makes a lot of sense. It is what tripped me up.
Brooklyn...Darling....It is so nice to read your words of wisdom around here again....
Really...?
Come on Mach, I thought we fixed your spelling problem...
It's Darlin'...
Or did you forget what your own accent sounds like?
; )
True, dont believe Cat. She may come off a little tough, but, she's one of the best on the inside. She tells it like she sees it, but, she'll have your back, too.
Brooklyn,
Thank you my friend. You always manage to make me tear up...
Girly enough?
Oh lord....
I think we just went from Chuck Norris to Richard Simmons.....
Ok True,
We have played enough for now...
Mach asked you some tough questions, and I for one, am interested in your response...
So keep talking...
Good on you, True. We have to be the person we were meant to be. And only we know who that is - no one else can tell us.
So, you've got some thinking to do. Take your wife out of it. What kind of man did you always wish you could be? Who do you admire and why? What characteristics or attributes in a person makes you smile, makes you feel good about them?
Mach, I know you know better than to say even one little thing that infers even the most miniscule negative about Cat, right?
Ok? just sayin'. Richard Simmons, sheesh.
And what the heck is up with the "darling" stuff? I leave for a little while and find out your brain turned to mush when I was gone.
Cat, you have no idea what kind of wonderful person you really are.
Cat just tells it like she sees it.
That's the truth!
Cat - thanks for today. I needed. (Sorry for the hijack True).
Eric
True
I am not quitting! I want this for ME. I CAN be a better man. I know I am a BETTER man already.
F*cking A. That's what I am talking about buddy. Now STFU and show yourself that man. Show it.
God Bless,
Eric
So....It's out there....
How are you going to deal with it?
What options do you have?
I am dealing with the money part. I have steady income now. I am waiting for a deal to close and then I will look for my own place.
This is getting better and better actually. I am back in the business I used to do which is mergers and acquisitions and I have moved back to the town where I have spent most of my career and am getting very good reception.
This part has been very healthy for me. I still need to get better at focusing on this because I do get bogged down with the emotional garbage with W.
I like what brooklyn said every day I need to decide that I am going to be that man. Get up and do it.
I need to not worry about W. You're right Mach F#ck her, I mean that in the most loving and detached way not with anger. I do. I want to be the confident truegritter again and I'm not going to get there using my W for a mirror.
Did your job , and money define who you were/are as a person ?
I guess if I'm honest I'll say this. I left a VERY lucrative career in investment banking where I was a principal in my own firm to start a business in beverage alcohol (yeah I know why not just try flying to the moon instead)
It has been a very long and difficult learning curve in the business. Of course a lot of people thought that I was crazy. I have invested a lot of money in it as well. It probably was my own MLC. I did attach a lot of my identity to it and its success I felt very much reflected on me personally. It is actually doing well now. Not making a lot but not losing money.
W only knew me when I was in alcohol biz she never knew me when I was a banker.
Now that I am back in M&A I really find I am much better at it. I have gained a different perpective I didn't have before. I don't have fear anymore. Looking utter finacial disaster right in the face and walking away does give you a different perpective on things. It's like having a near death experience.
I think I am goiong to embrace this part of me because it really is the best part of the new Grit. I can stand in a room with sharks and negotiate my way through and I can't handle a convo with W...????? WTF Grit? Really...?
Thank you for asking these questions because it is important for me to understand who I am and...
... who I want to be.
Op
If you're around I joined FB under my DB handle and I think joined the DB site by just clicking the "I like this" button or what else to I have to do?
Become a FAN.
Take a look at some of the other FANS.
I didn't see where to click to become a fan???
Ok Cat friended me so I'm hooked in.
Well......
W didn't call last night. I knew she wouldn't I would have bet on it.
She is entering a phase I think. OM must be phasing out. I just feel that is the case- no evidence.
She is really starting the blame game and saying things like Our personalities don't mesh. You and your family are always blaming. You know the drill. It's everybody else right? not what's inside her.
I am going to continue as I have been. Letting her contact me.
Her birthday is Sunday she will be 39. I got her a card which I will mail.
True
Thanks for the friend request. Good luck on the new endeavors. I as well work in the investment management field. Have so for about 17 years. The market if finally turing around so hopefully things will get back to the good old days.
Cheers,
Eric
You mean before socialism Eric?
Funny Jack ....you guys up North are a riot.
I just started reading the 5 Love Languages.
OMG what an a$$hole I must seem to W! With all her shannanigans we evolved (or I did) into a parent child relationship. Now I see the damage I did in my M and what I do when I talk to her now.
The f@cking light bulb just went on! I realize now how VERY important it is for me to keep my trap SHUT when and if I talk to her.
Ok so that is NOT the kind of man I want to be going forward.
The past is the past I can only do better in the future...
You know...Mach did say he thought you were on the cusp of self discovery enlightenment.
I am glad for you and man...I hate it when he is right...ok I don't hate it.
Oh yeah...and he most certainly did not use those big words.
Grit...
You're going to be tempted to 'tell' her you get it now...
Show her instead.
OK?
Jack, you be nice now, ya hear? No talking smack about Mach. LOL!
True, listen, don't beat yourself up for what you didn't realize in the past. That just saps your energy. Take it from someone who was the shoulda, coulda, woulda queen. Still happens from time to time, but, really, it serves no purpose. Use the new knowledge to propel you forward.
You now know something you want to change about yourself. Yippee! So, starting right now, begin to figure out what you can do differently.
And I know Jack hates it when people go on and on about him. But, as he often is, he's right. DO NOT go telling her you've had this epiphany. Just live it. You can do it.
I appreciate it ya'll (southern colloqialism).
BIG WORD ALERT! ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yeah I get the part about not sharing that. Mach already told me I can't talk my way out of something I acted my way into ...
...and it stuck.
Do you think most LBS's end up with controling behavior just because of circumstances? I don't think I was before? Maybe I was but God I will recognize that when I see it again.
Nope, I dont think most LBS's end up with controlling behavior. I think we all handle life in different ways for different reasons at different times.
Look, I know that right now it might seem important to understand why you have acted as you have in the past. And you can certainly try to figure it out - for a little while. But dont get so lost in the whys that the will bes get postponed, ya know?
The really important thing is that you recognize it now and you don't want to be that person anymore. Good for you. Become the person you were meant to be.
But dont get so lost in the whys that the will bes get postponed, ya know?
Focusing on the WILLBEES.
Now you're talkin'!
You'll see that this journey is one you were meant to go on.
You are doing great, True. Keep going.
I just started reading the 5 Love Languages.
What is your LL. You can wait to post this answer until you finish reading the book and take the test.
TG,
Looking good....Don't be afraid to let go of the controls. Put everything on autopilot, lean back, and breathe. You will find life to be more enjoyable when you are relaxed.
Remember that control is just a projection of inner weakness on others....truly strong self-confident people don't feel the need to control. They understand that things will work out as they will regardless of their actions.
Thanks Lost. I miss your posts. Hope you can hang around for a while.
Lost, I second what TG said.^^^^^^^
True,
Mach did say you were on the verge…
You have made a huge discovery…
Brooklyn is right about the whys…
They are really only important IF they keep you repeating the same old behavior…
However, (yes my fancy word for but), you need to see the WHAT’s…
The actual behavior…
What did you do? How did you act? In what situation did these actions occur? Where is the truth in things your W has said to you?
Identify them because unless you know what you want and need to avoid, erase, change, kill…
You won’t…you will keep repeating the behavior…
And I don’t mean “I was controlling”—HOW were you controlling, the specific actions? How were you the parent or the child? The specific actions?
Once you have identified those, and you find yourself repeating the behavior still, and you will, then you look at the whys for those issues…
Sometimes the answers are really simple if we just look, other times not so simple, and other times yet, we just have to say, that is what was and this is what will be…
I think I understand.
My "tyrant" behavior was mostly in reaction to her drinking or spending money we didn't have.
I took over the money. If she spent something that "I" considered not directly related to our survival like clothes she bought or spending $800 on her hair. Stuff like that. I would go ballistic.
Even when we only had limited income and we would have to spend on her meds, which we were paying for, I would get frustrated.
I see now how I just beat her little spirit down and it became a downward, ever tightening spiral.
My control was really related to the abuse she was doing to herself and frustration of our financial predicament.
It got even worse when her alcoholic friend came to live with us. As you might imagine, that was the preverbial last straw...
I feel a new sense of peace coming into my thoughts about W. I really think I understand now that I have to let go...
...I know I have detached but I mean really let go even further. We are in such different places and she has a long road to go. As do I. Before we can have ANY hope to moving toward a healthy relationship.
She still views me as the tyrant and blames me for everything. Right now that is all her own conciousness can do. So she is still the child in this. She needs to grow up on her own.
I am not going to be THAT guy. Anymore...
True
I just started reading the 5 Love Languages.
Great book. Personally it helped me realize the errors of my ways and the role I really played in the failure of the M. I's with OP - can't wait to find out what your LL is (FTR...you'll probably say the same thing that most men will say - keep searching and you may find that your LL is something else.)
The f@cking light bulb just went on!
The light bulb went on and is flickering...you need to keep pressing on you need to keep searching.
I realize now how VERY important it is for me to keep my trap SHUT when and if I talk to her.
Yep - how many times has Mach mentioned "pour yourself a big glass of STFU"? Not sure about you but I think he posted it to me...oh....1,000 times. So please dude - don't make my mistake.. pour yourself that glass and pour it often. When that fails...try a car bomb
The past is the past I can only do better in the future...
The past is important so remember that. You do not need to live in it but you do need to learn from it. I find that I need to look back in order to ensure that I am moving forward in the right direction. Never look back to dwell on what was, what could have been. As Brooklyn said - it will do no good but get you stuck. Will you feel sad, angry, fustrated knowing what you know now - yes. Must you feel these feelings. Yes! You need to feel them so that YOU and only YOU realize what YOU control ahead.
You're going to be tempted to 'tell' her you get it now. Show her instead.
DO NOT go telling her you've had this epiphany. Just live it.
True my friend...please read the above quotes several times. Please.
If you are anything like me...you will feel that you have "broken through" - that you have CHANGED - that you finally "get it". Then you will want to tell her and everyone else about it. Why? For me, I came to a new place in this journey and then wondered why no one noticed. The reality is that people will notice my friend. It will just take time.
If you are coming to this realization for her or for show then you may feel disappointed that W does not say something or that others do not say anything. What you will come to realize (and hey maybe it was just me) is that when you make changes really for YOU. It does not f@cking matter who say what. Who notices who doesn't - it will not make a freaking difference my friend....because you will finally accept and realize that this sh*t is really about YOU. You know what happens next....people notice. You feel better...you begin to feel whole...you begin to accept the pain..you begin to accept your faults and you really begin to know WHO YOU ARE. IMO - you my friend are one deep dude. Keep searching, don't stop. F - me and everyone else - do it for YOU.
As Brookly said (hey Brooklyn I was born and raised in NYC - shout out :))...
Use the new knowledge to propel you forward.
Finally....your quote below....
I am not going to be THAT guy.
Show me dude - don't tell me. Show the world in your actions. A simple quote my W once said to me...."actions speak louder than words"...It is a very simple quote but so true...so true...
Grit - your the man dude - keep pressing on.
God Bless,
Eric
Eric
Thanks my man. I am all about action. I am getting up each day with a sense of what I want to be and sh!t is coming together.
I am still digging though...
I realize I was full of alot of self doubt when I met W. I had been divorced for about 5 years but hadn't delt with the real issues. We both were the walking wounded and could barely hold eachother up.
Just a f@cking yard sale rolling down the hill- sh!t flying everywhere.
control is just a projection of inner weakness on others....truly strong self-confident people don't feel the need to control.
This is who I was ....and who I WANT to be.
In the mirror I see a guy
-Who felt extremely judged by his 1st W after she had multiple A
-Who never understood what he did wrong in his 1st M
-Who left his first M because he was hurt
-Who spent a good amount of time running away, behaving like a child
-Who lost his worries partying with his friends
-Who felt he was working for everyone elses approval
-Who felt stuck in a business working under his mentor
-Who felt unhappy where he was in life
-Who had the courage to take a chance and open a new business which was an expression of who he was.
-Who felt lonely and worried about whether he would ever meet someone.
-Who met a fun goodhearted woman in a lot of pain.
-Who tried to save his W and by his methods helped kill his M
-Who abandoned his W when the sh!t hit the fan
-Who wants a family but fears he is getting too old
-Who wants to understand his life
-Who wants to heal
-Who wants to forgive
-Who wants to be a better man
-Who knows he CAN do this!
There is more in that reflection I see...
I will keep digging.
I just started reading the 5 Love Languages.
It's a good read....
Maybe you should wait until you know yourself a little better though..
Should I stop reading?? Or read it again when I feel I will learn more...
The first 25 pages have already opened my eyes.
You can keep reading....
All I am saying is..
For me....The first time I read it...
It read more of a " What I DIDN'T do , and could have done" and was a twist of the knife still.
The second time, it meant a lot more to me...
Maybe what I am saying is....
Don't interpret it as a ploy to change for the sake of the Marriage alone.
Make sense ?
yes definitely...
That is not my focus anymore. It is icing on the cake. It is ancillary to my journey.
I am sure it will sting a little when I see myself in the pages but I am prepared for it. I welcome it.
W can stay in her tunnel for now...
I am BUSY!!!!
That, coupled with the fact that you say that you never really found you, so how could you know ?
You may find that your LL is quality time.....
And then, one day you may realize that it is PT, and hopefully , you wont be in the men's room at a Mets game when it comes to you...
THAT would be a b!tch......right Eric ?
You are finally healing bro....
One step each day for YOU...
That's all one can really do...
I will however tell you, that the minute by minute days are getting further behind you from what I can see....
Doesn't mean you are done, none of us really ever are....
Cause you are a DBer Grit...That means you aren't afraid of yourself.
And being a better person, only ends when they are chunkin' clay on you.
that the minute by minute days are getting further behind you
Yes I definitely feel that is true...
I am healing.
This is taking hold in all parts of my life.
And then, one day you may realize that it is PT, and hopefully , you wont be in the men's room at a Mets game when it comes to you...
THAT would be a b!tch......right Eric ?
Men's room - yes would be a bitch. Ladies room...well that's another story
On a serious note...Mach your comment about the LL book was spot on and I just realized that. I did feel like crap when I read it and may need to read it again. Right now I am engrossed in the Journey of Abondonment book, which is excellent.
True - your getting there my friend..from time to time you may slip and fall - remember to get up and get right back on the horse. Let nothing and I mean NOTHING divert your focus off of YOU. This is your show...this is YOUR life. You control the bus dude!
God Bless,
Eric
And then, one day you may realize that it is PT, and hopefully , you wont be in the men's room at a Mets game when it comes to you...
THAT would be a b!tch......right Eric ?
Men's room - yes would be a bitch. Ladies room...well that's another story
By context I guess PT means physical touch? No not good in a men's room unless...
...you own a pink shirt with sparkles on it.
you own a pink shirt with sparkles on it.
Hey - I own quite a few pink shirts...no sparkles though so what does that mean
I think Mach owns a purple one
Pastels were quite manly in the 80's. At least that's what I've heard....<hair flip>
Oh yeah I had one and wore it with khakis and bass weejun loafers with no socks...of course I had the collar flipped up in the back.
Still reading the 5 languages...
I more and more undertsand this:
Until you complete your own process of self examination (mirror work) you shouldn't say a f@cking word to your spouse. Except "I understand".
Because until you really do UNDERSTAND...
Everytime you open your mouth you confirm that you are the same person from the dead M.
You confirm that you are the person they want to leave.
You confirm their rationalization for having an A.
So just let them go...for now.
TG-
You needed a book to learn that concept? LOL...seriously, those are the steps we all need to take.
First understand yourself and then try to understand everything else.
You needed a book to learn that concept?
It wasn't the book it was
learning the concept,
not doing it,
Getting sh!t upon,
listening to concept again,
not doing it,
Getting sh!t upon,
Then...
Reading the book and actually undersatnding through experience and how my W maybe sees me.
Really it is just understanding that you can't talk your way out of something you acted your way into...
I remember reading a fortune cookie that said
"better for jackass to keep mouth shut, than to open it and remove all doubt."
Maybe I made that up...
Until you complete your own process of self examination (mirror work) you shouldn't say a f@cking word to your spouse. Except "I understand".
Because until you really do UNDERSTAND...
Grit,
It is after this point that you MAY be able to say something.
It is also after this point that you may not WANT to say too much anymore.
Please, don’t ever think the mirror work is done. It should slow down after a point, but it is something that SHOULD always remain a part of who you are becoming…
Reading the book and actually undersatnding through experience and how my W maybe sees me.
Really Grit ?
This early ?
Most people use an alarm clock, and you want a smack to the forehead....
This is FOR YOU......not how, what, when, where your W sees you.
Want controlling ? Change for her and she'll sniff you out like a K-9 dog on a Cheech and Chong movie set.
Cat
Thanks. I do realize that this will ALWAYS be a work in progress.
It is also after this point that you may not WANT to say too much anymore.
I see what you mean about this too. I am looking back at how I interact with W. The communications I have had with her since the bomb. I realize I come from a place that FORCES my own agenda. I get frustrated when my ideas are not understood. I want to fix, I don't want to listen. I solve problems...
...I don't create them???? <<<<<<< This is a problem for me.
I don't want to be the overbearing husband or friend. I don't want to be the fixer. And I think examining that is a goal for me and then maybe every morning I need to drink a big glass of...
...STFU!
And listen.
Mach
OK I'm awake now!
But isn't part of this examination to look outside yourself?
To look in the mirror you have to admit some things to yourself.
I am not saying I am changing my behavior for W.
I am only saying that I can see her POV.
I am squeezing out the sponge of self absorption.
I got lost in my R with W. I lost myself.
I see what you mean about this too. I am looking back at how I interact with W. The communications I have had with her since the bomb. I realize I come from a place that FORCES my own agenda. I get frustrated when my ideas are not understood. I want to fix, I don't want to listen. I solve problems...
This screams control.
Do you see that?
I am willing to bet this has been going on since before the bomb..
TG-
That should be a fortune cookie...LOL
Mach is right...You need to do the changes for yourself..or else they won't stick and everybody will know why. Keep reading...listening..and doing the right things for you everyday.
I am willing to bet this has been going on since before the bomb..
You bet ur sweet a$$ it was!
That is what I am saying...
So mirror work...
Pretty list, and while specific at times...vauge at others.
Which ones are you working on killing?
An example.
Old Jack was a slug who played computer games and ignored his family, including his wife and two boys.
Jack got active, limited his games to an Xbox 360 when he worked out.
Went hiking got into sword fighting involved himself more with his boys couldn't do much with his wife at the time. Became a better dad.
Old Jack used to let shite fester.
Jack got honest if he didn't like something, inclduing in himself.
"It's OK..." Passive Aggressive bullshit that follwed got replaced with:
"I'm not sure if you meant to insult me, however, this is how this seems to me."
Refine your mirror work to laser sights on your failings...find them, hunt them down and kill them.
Old Jack was a slug who played computer games and ignored his family, including his wife and two boys.
Jack got active, limited his games to an Xbox 360 when he worked out.
Went hiking got into sword fighting involved himself more with his boys couldn't do much with his wife at the time. Became a better dad.
Old Jack used to let shite fester.
Jack got honest if he didn't like something, inclduing in himself.
"It's OK..." Passive Aggressive bullshit that follwed got replaced with:
"I'm not sure if you meant to insult me, however, this is how this seems to me."
These are the kinds of WHATS I was talking about.
True - sorry for the hijack...
Jack - EXCELLENT POST. I needed this. I'm gonna take some time and post some specifics. I really needed this post. Once again. Thanks.
Eric
Wow! Now that is really a good map.
I can do that. Some I have started already.
I will get to work on drilling down on my list.
Hey True, still a little too much, my wife this and my wife that for my liking. Just sayin.
When you make the list, it has to be things you have realized about yourself that you don't like or want to change, ya know?
I know it gets exciting to think that all of this is coming together in your head. But really, it should come quietly, thoughtfully, not like a bolt of lightning.
Keep the focus on you. What are the some things you always wanted to try? In what ways could you be a better person?
And you really cant know your wife's point of view because, well, its her point of view.
You are doing great. Keep on keepin' on.
Thanks for all the guidance.
My list does need to be refined. It is only the first glance in the mirror so to speak.
I had a very interesting two days. As I have mentioned I moved back to a town that I have spent most of my professional career.
I am getting such a warm reception I cannot eeven believe it. My former partner in a firm I founded here 13 years ago has been making a lot of enemies so everyone has been very encouraging for me to be back in the community essentially competing...
...that is a GREAT feeling.
I've not heard from W...not really worried about that. Wha? Did i just say that?
Yes I did...
Grit
I'm happy for you dude! Bottle up the..."great feeling" and refer back to it on those days when you may feel a little down.
God Bless,
Eric
This isn't only to Grit....but to many watching his process, and going through this...
First of all...
I see you growing right now....
And for that ? I am happy for you. You really are taking a hard look at yourself.
BUT.....(not as "fancy" as the Cat )
I want you to understand something.
All of these new found things about yourself.
You need to be patient with you as well.
These discoveries you are having need to be "felt" to become real.
I have always said that you have to "own" your emotions, and this is no different. It is okay to realize that there is a problem with something, and learn what it is , and how to overcome.
HOWEVER....YOU need to own these things that you are finding.
You have to own it, feel it, embrace it, and take action on it.
AND....if you are sitting there shaking your head yes, and thinking "I know " , I'm coming to visit you with a real 2x4......
Real change takes courage in the face of the battle....fearing the unknown, yet reacting with a lack of fear.
And I'm not convinced that one can go into said battle with someone else's battle plan....
All of your realizations are great Grit.....They really are.....
Unless you own them for you, and actually live them, they will mean nothing to you in the end.
Sometimes I see you acknowledging things simply because someone here says to.
Slow down,and carefully examine you, feel these things as you go through them...
This is a process....
Processes take time....
Everything happens for a reason and by the grace of God, on HIS time.....
Nothing like hanging a $10k chandelier in an outhouse.....?????
The only way to do it , is through it.....( nickel Brooklyn)
Hey Mach, I am going to take that nickel, I need the cash - LOL!
True, this is a long, twisting, curvy road we are on. And it never really ends. We should always be learning about, adjusting and changing ourselves.
But, hopefully, one day we find the road is going straight. When we do, yippee! Then we get to walk straight towards the life we were meant to live.
You are doing great. Keep looking inward and keep walking.
Sometimes I see you acknowledging things simply because someone here says to.
AND
....if you are sitting there shaking your head yes, and thinking "I know " , I'm coming to visit you with a real 2x4......
This because I don't yet know. You know I don't yet know. What I do know is that as I have in the past I will eventually know. I acknowledge what you say because I hear it...
...it's like my dog he raises his ears looks at me and he is really trying to understand what I'm saying to him but really he only knows certain words like "biscuit" and then its happy tail wagging time...
Like everything I have learned here I go just go into the great unknown and then the light comes on.
I trust this process. I trust that I will make mistakes and that I will learn from them. And...
...I trust that you all have a stack of 2x4's at the ready.
Thank you kindly, Mach, you brat! - LOL!
True, if you start to think to yourself, man, these people are tough. Can't they give a guy a break? Then we are doing our job.
When I get like that, it's because I am getting excited for you. I can see that you are really trying to look inside and that you are seeing things.
But, we (hope I can speak for you here, Mach) want to be very sure that you don't miss any steps in the process because if you do, then you lose groung. We dont want that to happen and we will do whatever it takes to keep you on course.
Dont doubt for a minute that we dont see how hard you are trying and that you are moving in the right direction. But, we are not gonna let you rest on your laurels.
So, sweetie, remember always that our intent is to help where we can, because we have walked this walk and that we care.
Nothing like hanging a $10k chandelier in an outhouse.....?????
I have done this^^^^^^
What's the problem?
I call it sh!ttin in STYLE!
Oops, I meant lose ground. Anyway, anytime I can save someone from having to stay any longer than they have to onto this part of the journey, I will.
But, since I am a girl, I tend to try to soften the 2 x 4's with a little soft cushioning.
Mach, don't you dare go anywhere with that. With you, I dont need to use kid gloves and I wont. Just sayin'. LOL!
Grit,
I don't want you to think I am busting on you here....
And Thank You Brooklyn!
( I seem to have spent all my sensitivity class money giving out nickels)
You summed up my intentions really well Darlin....( as usual)
What I am beating into you is....
If you go to the Goodwill store and buy an old jacket....
One that fits you really well...
Looks really good...
And is priced right....
That jacket, although you have it for years, will never really be a part of you the way that your skin is...
So, although you may be recognized by it, and associated by it, you can still take it off at night and hang it in a closet...
It will never be you.....just an extension of you...
It's the you that you can't hang up that needs to be associated with you...
Personality is who the world sees...
Character is who you are when the lights are off...
These changes have to be your skin....not the jacket.
Make more sense ?
Bonehead....
Hey…
When did Grit get to join the bonehead club?
Grit,
I have spent the morning reading this thread. You have come a way. You have made a breakthrough.
But it appears that you are trying to skip steps.
I saw it yesterday (and I’m not the only one).
So here it is…
While I know your W wanted you to earn more money and your business was not doing so well…
And I know that you are now rebuilding your old career…(yea!!!)
And I know you seem to want to stand for your marriage…(another yea!)
You also mentioned an almost romantic weekend with a woman not so long ago…(
)
And you do report a lot of interaction with your W, some better than others…
Grit…
While these thing can build and break your self esteem…
And they should to a degree…
They do NOT determine who you are and your self worth…
Unless you allow them too…
Finding yourself, your REAL value, to yourself, is hard…
But necessary…
There are so many facets to this journey…don’t try to skip the steps because you will miss some big things…
Be patient with yourself…
I do have some questions for you, but they are gonna have to wait until later. Time to go to work.
You have plenty to digest right now anyway.
You have plenty to digest right now anyway.
Yes I know there has been a LOT of good stuff posted here and I have not had time yet to go back over and back over this stuff to really let it sink in.
I am planning on doing that this weekend.
You also mentioned an almost romantic weekend with a woman not so long ago…
Yes I did see that immediately for what is was - a little boost to the old self esteem, however(nice word Cat do I owe you a nickle?)this is not my first rodeo and that is what I indulged in after my 1st M. Tempting.....
.....not good for Grit's journey.
My buddies have taken to joking with me about tallying how many women I can run off...rather than the other way around...
and I am going for the record! Yes I AM still standing.
And you do report a lot of interaction with your W, some better than others
Notwithstanding the foregoing <<<<<<<<<this is my new euphamism for BUT and you owe me a nickel if you use it!
Notwithstanding the foregoing, the last conversation I had with W I think really did some damage. She is feeling all the pain now, she is off her meds, I would guess OM thing is cratering and she is just pissed as hell at happy little Grit.
She is back in the tunnel and I would not be surpised if I don't hear from her for a while. My friend called me to tell me she added her pre-me last name on her FB. I don't look at it so I didn't know.
Whatever that means...
Mach...
Personality is who the world sees...
Character is who you are when the lights are off...
So true...so true...
Grit - how you holding up dude?
Eric
Notwithstanding the foregoing
Fancy word for but…
Don’t think you are gonna slide if you use it in the wrong context
Cat -Not looking to slide....
I had a busy weekend pretty much non-stop social enagements. Didn't have much time to devote to looking over things and getting my sh!t together.
W's b-day was yesterday I had sent her a card. Then I texted her happy birthday. She responded that she enjoyed the card that is was very sweet....
That's it.
I will be journaling my progress here shortly on the BIG homework assigment I have for myself...
Ok number one on the list of things to kill:
1)I don't want to lose myself or escape from my troubles by partying with my friends. I don't want to go to bars, parties etc. where I may have too much to drink.
This does not serve my journey. This does not serve me. This does not fill me with a sense of courage, dignity and grace.
I will instead continue to pursue my horseback riding. Spend time with my niece and nephew, learn Italian, and hiking the many nature trails where i live.
That is the first thing about myself that is a failing that I intend to kill.
Attaboy, True.
Keep looking inward. Remember, changes take time. That's the only way they stick.
If I may True...
and I will.
1)I don't want to lose myself or escape from my troubles by partying with my friends. I don't want to go to bars, parties etc. where I may have too much to drink.
THAT is more of a syptom to stop...there is a reason for the syptom to kill.
Suggest...start doing things that make you proud of yourself, give yourself some pride.
When is the last time you took your parents out, gave back to the community or something like that? Get back your sense of self...and the 'escape' from you won't be needed.
Two birds...one stone...remember laser in on your weaknesses...things you hate kill those, not the effects of them.
PS - dress BUT up anyway you want...its still an excuse.
Ok number one on the list of things to kill:
1)I don't want to lose myself or escape from my troubles by partying with my friends. I don't want to go to bars, parties etc. where I may have too much to drink.
This does not serve my journey. This does not serve me. This does not fill me with a sense of courage, dignity and grace.
I will instead continue to pursue my horseback riding. Spend time with my niece and nephew, learn Italian, and hiking the many nature trails where i live.
That is the first thing about myself that is a failing that I intend to kill.
I like this. Especially the part about courage, dignity and grace. The mistakes we do or do not make while getting through this will help form the people we become.
A broken bone that isn't set correctly will be crooked and weak when it heals. We are the same way.
Good for you for seeing the bigger picture in dealing with your healing.
PS - dress BUT up anyway you want...its still an excuse.
What if it's simply the use of a preposition intended to show contrast rather than exception?
"The MLC forum is not keen on excuses, but would rather see some personal accountability followed by real and lasting change."
What if it's simply the use of a preposition intended to show contrast rather than exception?
: ) I LIKE you.
When that is the case, of course it is totally acceptable, but it is usually used to show exception.
What if it's simply the use of a preposition intended to show contrast rather than exception?
That is the the exception to the exception...
things you hate kill those, not the effects of them.
I guess you're right Jack. The first thing you notice is the effects though...
I like your suugestions though. Those are things that would make me feel more like a man who lives with courage dignity and grace.
Some other things I have been working on is also a symptom.
I wake up every morning and feel anxious. Maybe a little dread of the day ahead of me...
I don't like that symptom either but I am not sure I know the cause except that I need to have a purpose to my day and I need to look forward to that purpose. I need to like that purpose. And that purpose needs to be about me.
This stuff is HARD. I want a laser shot but it is hard to know what I'm aiming at.
I wouldn't mind living with Grace.
She's a pretty lady.
I wouldn't mind living with Grace.
She's a pretty lady.
Thanks Jack that helps! LOL!
Seriously now...
I just finished the 5 Love Languages and took the test and....
I failed.
No....Not really
I got that my language is quality time with an extremely close 2nd of Acts of service.
If I had to guess my W is probably Gifts or acts of service but that would just be just a wild a$$ guess.
So it says to share my score with my W so I called her up and I shared my score with her....
Just Kidding!
Grit, you're just full of --it. HS that is. Better than bull...
Just kidding, you're really growing and I'm impressed. Lots of good stuff there.
You have come a way. You have made a breakthrough.
But it appears that you are trying to skip steps.
I think I know what this means...
There was a part of the LBS stages that hasn't really been debated that I have seen on the recent threads on the topic. It got lost. And I didn't see it in my process until now...
THE TEMPTATION IN THE FACE OF COMPLETE REJECTION
It is that bargaining process between who you are. YOUR character. VS the EGO or self preservation.
Someone is doing things to you... so naturally you blame them and ask yourself why would I do this for them?
The tempatation is to leave the process...to leave your decision to stand. To leave or try to control your spouse. To attach outcomes to your decision to stand.
This is the step I was missing!
I willl post what I posted on another thread here so I can have it here for me.
This is what I want to say about it ...
This is a continuation of that ^^^^^^^^^^
IMO standing is an essential part of the healing process of the LBS. You will constantly questions this throughout. At least I have up to this point.
You will ask yourself questions like "WTF am I doing this for this person?"
In the beginning we want answers.
Why did this happen?
How could they do this?
Who am I?
What do I believe in?
What do my vows mean to me?
Why do I hurt?
And the BIG ONE...
What is it about ME that made them leave?
IMO you don't get answers unless you choose to take the hard road, STAND, and go on the journey.
At first you tend to look at it as a quid pro quo- I am willing to do this for a while until I see some progress. IOW you do it EXPECTING some outcome ...
As time goes on and your expectations aren't met you question again...
It is all part to of the journey. You may even have trouble articulating why you are doing this to other people or yourself.
Then you start to look inside....
Then you start to see who YOU are...
Then you realize that this is part of YOU
What you have chosen is part of YOU and your character. So what began out of a search for answers for why and what is wrong with you. Out of hurt for what someone did to you...
You see it all has to do with who YOU are. The best part of who YOU are and then...
It is no longer about what THEY choose or why.
It is about YOU.
Grit, I agree with you totally, and the above is why if the LBS chooses to do the work they can look at their journey as a blessing.
Seeking....
if the LBS chooses to do the work they can look at their journey as a blessing.
So true....so true....
I may just add that it is a TOUGH process, filled with ups and downs. For me a very slow process.
Hey Grit - looking good buddy...looking good. Keep digging and searching. As I monitor your progress I want you to know that your post are helping to PUSH me further. Thank you for your openess. Thank you.
God Bless,
Eric
more coming through...
I have been trying to figure out what is the source of
my wanting to escape,
my anxiousness,
my dread
my fear.
And it is the WHAT IF?
the conditions I place on my life.
What IF W doesn't come back THEN?
What IF I stand and W doesn't want M THEN?
What IF I make this decision THEN What?
If I place conditions/exceptions to my life then I compromise my life.
When I took my vows did I mean: I will love you all the days of my life, BUT if you get so scared and lose your way then I won't?
It's those damn BUTs! I am stuck because of BUTs
I am paralyzed because of BUTs.
I know what I need to kill now.
When I get up with fear and anxiousness it's because of the fear of what may happen. I want to escape from that fear. The self doubt that creates it.
If you walk out into the world everyday with your truth then there is only...
What was (and you have learned from it)
What is (Your truth)
What is to come (through living your truth)
There is no regret.
No second guessing.
No doubt.
The only way to fail is to fail yourself.
My head hurts after all this thinking...
It was worth your headache as far as I'm concerned (course you may not feel that way)... This was all very helpful to me right now... ;0)
Grit...
These epiphanies you have been having .....
They have been very difficult for you...
And they have taken TIME.......
THIS....is just the tip of the iceberg of what your spouse is going through right now....
Only thing is....most here are of rational mind and thought process...An MLC spouse isn't.
You didn't come to this place while there was a lot of contact with her...
That is exactly why the time, space , and distance is really what is best for them.
Detaching is what is best for the LBS....to get to this realization...
Good for you Grit.....
Nice step for you...
Grit my friend
I agree with Mach...I can see your growth your changes.
You my friend are an "Onion man" (okay bear with me here :))
How do onions taste? Sweet right?
Well before you can eat a nice cooked sweet onion it MUST BE PEELED.
That my friend is you.
You are peeling back the layers of YOU and what I think you are finding is a sweet guy.
Now FTR - don't take the sweet comment the wrong way.
Keep peeling back the layers!
God Bless
Eric
Now FTR - don't take the sweet comment the wrong way.
I won't my mojito makin, pink tutu wearing friend!
Thank you...
Hey sweetie,
I was the queen of the what ifs. Trust me on that one. Or just ask Mach or Cat.
But then I learned:
Faith is the absence of fear. Feed your faith and fear will starve.
Really, you can only control you. And the whatifs, they almost always seem much worse than the reality.
So, what if you figure out what makes you happy? What if you become the person you were meant to be?
Keep going. Dont get bogged down in whatifs cuz then you stop moving forward.
And I really want you to keep moving forward. One step, one moment at a time. There is no rush. You need to feel your feelings. You need to be the change you want to see.
Hang in there, my friend.
woo hoo!
A good friend of mine got in touch tonight and wanted to know what I was up to for the long weekend.
He has a house on the beach up in the panhandle of FLA.
We are going there tomorrow and I can bring my big brown puppy( he's 8 1/2 y/o and 115#'s so not really a pup)
We are going to fish for pompano on the beach and just hang. I am bringing my surf board.
Man I am so excited...
Going to my favorite beach. Strange we were talking about beaches on PEI's thread...
...maybe not that strange.
Little puppy is going to love the ocean!
I talked to W today.
She called.
Good convo. Laughed together and by actual count I said
"I understand" 10 times and didn't say anything stupid!
JACK I tried to invite my parents to dinner but their schedule is booked right now...SHeeez!
More going on than I do!
So tonight after I went to a party from which I got home early i brought them dessert -cannoli, strawberries dipped in choc, red velvelt cake cupcakes...
Man they loved it! And I felt good too...Good suggestion Jack.
Talk to ya'll in the morning...
Hi TG, catching up on your tread and noticing how great you are doing
Envy you your plans for the weekend...I need to escape somewhere soon....
Have lots of fun
Grit, You have come so far! Have a wonderful weekend!
Grit,
Been gone for a few days so I am back peddling a bit here.
Standing…
You are not doing it for her at all…
It is not a choice that you give to your crazy MLC spouse…
It is a gift you give to yourself…
To ensure that YOU don’t make mistakes in your decisions about YOUR life…
If you get your M back, that is wonderful and great and just well WOOPIE!!!
If you don’t, you are still a better man for it.
Which is an even bigger WOOPIE!!!!!!!!
So stop all of the buts...
You are right they are keeping you stuck, you are even using them as an excuse to not SEE what you want to really kill, and if you go back to your own words, where you say you can’t see what it is you want to zero in on, it is right there in the post….
There are no buts…you either do it or you don’t. If you do, you do it for YOU and no other reason…
Once you really realize that, you will not be stuck in that land anymore…
Yes Shel, when the buts are used for contrast only, totally acceptable, but when they are used to create an excuse by disguising it as a contrast or a “reason” like “I want to go in the pool, but it is green…” Well then there is something in that statement that is a variable, an excuse, something that can be changed. So change it or figure out a way to make it not be a problem so that you can continue on with what you want to do.
The more you pay attention to this, the more you will see it…
Anyway, Grit, have a great weekend, don’t party too much if that is truly something you want to stop. Alcohol, is something that can be used for recreation, or something that can be used to hide from things you don’t want to face. It is YOUR CHOICE how you want to use it.
Grit
Have a great weekend dude! Enjoy the beach! FTR - I call my 70lbs Golden Doodle (no comments please Mach) a puppy.
Eric
Thanks my friend...
My puppy is a chocolate lab.
You have a great one too!
ok comparing puppies now...
mine are a ten year old 69lb boxer shepard mix and an 8 year old 62 pound red Siberian Husky.
Yes a husky in Florida...
sigh...
I'm loving the last few pages of this thread. So much good stuff here! True, I appreciate so much what you wrote about the *buts* and *whatifs* holding you back. It's hard to not let your mind wander.
I'm reading Laura Munson's book about her LBS journey & she talks about "the end of suffering" and how it ends at the end of wanting. It's hard not to want something, not to want your W & M back, not want to make the pain go away, not want to make this all better. It's difficult to just live int he moment, to appreciate the here & now and not WANT to be in a different place. But this is what we have to do. I'm still learning, and I think you are doing great.
I'm betting that you are going to enjoy living in the moment this weekend. It sounds like a fantastic time! Have fun.
Cat, I hear ya. I got busted by the but police early on. And it is so true, it's the stuff after the buts you have to work on. I was just messing around with the but cops--I know I shouldn't, but it's so much fun!! (that one was intentional)
I still have to watch my but's. I has gotten alot better (ready?),
but I know I'll continue to keep a watchful eye out for the rest of my life. Just sayin'.
My question is....is it a long board? You realize you could be giving age away with the answer
Have a great weekend!
A Cat has dogs?
Mach is Pine Tree?
I am an Onion?
Eric has a golden doodle? (ok that one not such a stretch)
What's going on around here?????
Next thing ya know Jack will start being nice...
WTF?
My question is....is it a long board?
Yes it is... wink wink
Although when I surfed when I was younger(like 16 y/o) I had 5'7'' Twin Fin, double winger swallow tail by Local Motion
Totally Rad! I shredded those tiny Florida waves.
I haven't surfed in soooooo long it's been collecting dust for years.
You got a board Cali girl?
Alas, no longer. I'm in Nor Cal and what they call beaches up here.....well, technically they are.
I'd be such a greenhorn now, it would be a laugh. Laughter however, is always good. Nothing like watching a "goofyfoot" my age surfing again. People might think I was having a MLC. :0
Hey Grit- how is it going? are you back?
I'm sweet as peaches...
when you figure out that this if for you.
I'm downright nice as pie...
when you aren't saying it every 15 minutes to convince yourself of it. : )
People might think I was having a MLC. :0
Grace,
I know what you mean...when I'm dead standing in front of St. Peter I am sure as heck going to be worried about what strangers thought of me back when I was alive.
Come on Grace...F them. Go do for you and screw what MOST people may think.
Several of us, myself included, are moving through this journey and have encountered what I believe is a major sign post.
An essential step.
An understanding.
An awakening of sorts.
I am referring to that moment when one reconciles the dilemna of STANDING.
I have written already about the fact that as we begin this journey we decide to STAND.
We STAND because of what I will call BASE factors
We want our M back
We want our spouse to want us back
We want our spouse to see us as the more desirable option
We want to ease our own pain
We want our own self esteem back
We (may) want to punish spouse by appearing to be morally superior
We want ________ because we get _________ in return.
We STAND on these principles.
We communicate these principles and inevitably we meet with question and resistance.
From family, friends and
from ourselves.
Because it is hard for most people to imagine themselves making this decision.
It is a sacrifice of sorts at this stage.
We are looked on as victims of bad behavior, incongruent behavior to REAL LOVE.
So in that light we begin to feel like victims or that we are being taken advantage of in a sense and are perceived as such by the world. A DOORMAT if you will.
As time goes on and those who care about us begin to be more concerned about our mental and emotional health and question more emphatically why we choose to be a DOORMAT.
Or how long will you be a DOORMAT.
Then you begin to doubt yourself and your decision and the focus goes back to your beloved and now you look on them not with eyes of a scourned lover, a left behind, abandoned spouse, but with real scrutiny.
We begin to question why we would SACRIFICE our own happiness and endure such hardship to regain the love of a person who so obviously is not capable of the same for us or even anyone else.
It is then that the MIRACLE happens.
Through all the pain and seemingly fallow soil a sprout
of green punches through...
This growth is something new and it
is OURS, we planted it, we sowed it
For it is certain our seed was trampled upon many times before
it took root.
But it did take root and
it grows, upwardly reaching, toward the light.
The miracle is the love for yourself.
You are no longer the choices your spouse makes
You are no longer whether your M reconciles or not
You are no longer the failures you see in yourself
You are no longer a victim because only YOU can choose to be one.
Then you a FREE
Free to make the choice to STAND for YOURSELF.
This I believe can only be achieved through the decision to STAND in the first place.
Only through that decision can we experience the pain involved to know completely what it means to be free.
What is means to love.
Truegritter,
thank you for such a moving post - incredibly insightful and resonating with me as I sit here in a rainy corner of the UK!
Thank you
lalxx
Free to make the choice to STAND for YOURSELF.
This I believe can only be achieved through the decision to STAND in the first place.
Only through that decision can we experience the pain involved to know completely what it means to be free.
What is means to love.
omg...is there something in the freakin water around here? lol
I'm just going to be in tears all day, True. This is perfect. And so incredibly true. This is it.
We kept questioning it, and we kept getting told, "you'll know when you know". Now we know what that actually means. And we know.
I'm happy that you are here. I'm happy that I am here. I'm happy that there are more of us *right here*.
I'm sorry that any of us have known such heartache, but so grateful that I have learned such an important lesson about life, and love & myself.
Maybe this was necessary. Maybe my H & I were never meant to be together forever, I'll never know & I can't second guess God's plans for me. But if this had to end, then I will be eternally grateful for the gift I've been given in the process.
How many people ever, truly, know who they are?
I will not ever regret my M or my H--I have been blessed in every respect; having known such a wonderful love, my children, a real happiness and now this. It's been difficult and painful, but it's still a blessing.
Sometimes God's greatest gifts are the hardest ones to open.
(((hugs)))
I will be eternally grateful for the gift I've been given in the process.
YES!
YES!
yes...
you can only find it...
the way you found it.
And you found it my dear.
Trusting
I found when I got to this place there is a complete sense of peace and letting go.
It is so amazing after months and months of emotional turmoil. The hurt is healing. Even forgiveness is allowed to flourish.
The plans for the future with or without H appear raising excitement in my soul.
Life is good.
TG - your post on Awakening/Standing has really touched me....you have no idea how it helped me to organize my scattered thoughts and to look at the big picture. Thank you
We kept questioning it, and we kept getting told, "you'll know when you know". Now we know what that actually means. And we know.
Thats what I meant when I said that the answers that you were seeking , wouldn't matter as much, because the answers were inside of YOU....
Sometimes God's greatest gifts are the hardest ones to open.
Ya think ?
This really is a gift ya know....
And I am happy that you see that now...
Now that you have an idea of why, you can truly find out who....
Both of you.... Shel and Truebonehead....
Find out who you are now, now that you can see this for what it needs to be....
Hey True, I wanted to thank you again for what you wrote for me. It meant more than you know.
Everyone comes to this place in such pain, such turmoil and heartbreak. And I want so much to be able to fast forward everyone to the place they need to be - to the moment when they finally realize this is for them.
But to take a shortcut means they would bypass some of the most important parts.
I am so glad that you have figured out that happiness comes from within. And the only person we can control is ourselves.
Now you can continue on and figure out what makes True happy and who you want to be.
That's why we keep saying this journey is really about you.
So, it's time to live your life. As my son says, do it up!
Hey True, (I like that better than Grit) I just wanted to tell you that I think it's wonderful that you are posting and helping others.
How are you doing on your journey? Remember this is an ongoing process and one should never stop growing and changing and learning.
Hey Brookie!
Thank you for those words.
I am taking your advice from a while back.
I am trying to let these changes take root
And letting a peaceful calm process guide me through looking at myself and digging deeper.
There are some big questions coming up to the surface right now and I think I will need some help with them...
Atta boy, my friend! You navigate through this at your own pace.
I'll help in any way I can.
I had to go back and read through my thread from the past two weeks.
This stuff is really finally starting to take root. To be part of me.
Faith in myself is now part of my daily feeling rather than fleeting moments.
My sense of love of has become my faith.
My faith is my truth that pushes away all fears.
Pushes the fear of failure away.
That thing that I have been trying to find in myself that I want to kill I have found it.
It is the fear of failure. It is self doubt. I hate that in myself.
I hate that anyone questions my decisions. I hate that I have been told my choices were wrong. That my choices are still wrong. I hate that I allow people to assume a position of authority over my decisions by their judgement and advice.
People seem to offer their advice without you asking for it. It presumes that you need correction and it presumes they have higher understanding and knowledge than you.
So you doubt. Could they be right?
You question maybe I am not what I thought I was.
Maybe I am incapable of making decisions for myself.
Maybe it's easier just not to take chances.
Maybe it's easier just to take what people give me.
Because WHAT IF I'm wrong?
I WILL NO LONGER...
Take others criticism and judgement as a failure in myself or my choices.
Let actions or words of others affect my faith and my truth.
Let my failures (by my own assessment)keep me from living my life and my truth.
I WILL...
Be committed to myself.
Accept responsibility for my decisions
Wake up each day and live with the peace of knowing that I am who I choose to be.
That is a start and that is a promise to myself.
I wanted to post this separately from the above.
W took down her status of FB as married to me. I don't look at her stuff but I got an email notifying of the change in status so...
I was upset of course and called her about it.
Her final analysis was "Why should YOU care."
She stated she didn't know where she stood in our M, how she felt that we needed to talk etc.
We talked briefly on friday and basically she said she was not sure she wanted to be married to me because I have not offered to help her when I knew she was in dire financial circumstances.
I was aghast at the crazy logic behind this.
I guess I shouldn't have been she is MLC.
I responded in a not so calm fashion and told her don't make this about $ that I didn't know what the sitch was with OM, that I was just gving her space and living my promise to her to be patient reminded her of the email I sent 3 months ago that I posted at the beginning of my thread...
...that I will be patient and wait for her.
After much angst and sorting through I finally decided to send this and did send this that will be my creed for her going forward:
I wanted to remind you of the email below that I sent over a month ago. I meant every word I wrote.
I cannot give what you do not ask me for. I can give what I think is best. But that is not my role. That would be me assuming I know what is best for you. Only YOU know what is best for you and what YOU want. The only thing I have to give of my own free will, without you asking, is my love.
I give this freely and without any conditions.
Although I get upset, it is more due to the fact that I am not part of your equation right now. MY hope is to be part of the solution, not the problem. I am sorry for my part in the breakdown of us, and I hope that you continue to grow and heal as a person, and that one day, we can come together again.
In my heart, I know that cannot happen until you are ready for it to happen.
Love
True
ATTACHED MESSAGE BELOW SENT 5/5/10
I just wanted to say that as you move through this difficult time and try to find your way, that I will be here for whatever you need. If you need an ear I will listen. I will just LISTEN. I do have hopes that we can someday come back together and sometimes I let that desire get the better of me. Please understand that it is not meant to upset you when I try to make this happen. I don’t mean to push but sometimes I do. I am learning more patience every day. Every day I get a little stronger… and a little better.
I know it may be difficult for you to ask me to help but I want to say that if you need ANYTHING you can ask and it will come with NO strings. I am still your husband and still want to be. I know that for us to make it you have to make it on your own first. And when you look in the mirror and like who you see I hope you see me STANDING next to you. And that you want me there…
Your husband,
I wanted to remind her that I DID offer to help. That is not important though she will see this the way she sees it.
I can have no expectations here.
I see this now for what it is. It is HER journey.
I truly understand now that I can only be the light.
The constant glow in the distance.
And in that light is my truth, my love for her.
A love that I gave before with conditions...
Conditions based on expectations or outcomes or circumstances
That is not a constant light.
That is not a light to guide by in the dark.
In the dark where my W is and is so afraid.
And I turn the light on and she sees it for a moment and takes furtive steps toward me and then...
It goes out again.
That cannot be me. That cannot be how my light shines.
My light for her must ALWAYS be on.
In my weakness and confusion I allowed my light to go out.
And my love has lost her way...
My light is ME. It is WHO I am.
I will endeavor to embrace this truth and have it be part of me.
It is part of the miracle that has happened to me
I must trust this in myself.
Go pitch black true.
If she is going to grow, she has to do it on her own right now.
If you are going to finish growing, you are going to have to do it on your own right now.
Grit
I was somewhat torn on how to respond to you. I have just caught up with your thread. As I know you can appreciate – I am on an interesting journey as well and have not spent a great deal of time on the boards.
So how to I respond….
First off….
Eric has a golden doodle? (ok that one not such a stretch)
Yes he is the cutest thing…a golden doodle that is black.
I think Mach is a little more than a pine tree…I could think of a few choice descriptions 
Yes – it my book you are as am I. We just keeping peeling…and peeling…
Next thing ya know Jack will start being nice...
Jack is…..err…..very nice 
Okay…now on to the meat of my response….
Shelbel posted……”We kept questioning it, and we kept getting told, "you'll know when you know". Now we know what that actually means. And we know.”
Yes we finally understand that each of us is on our own journey. Each and every single one of us.
Sometimes God's greatest gifts are the hardest ones to open.
So true Shebel….so true….we see it….and are afraid to open it…we want guarentees, we want assurances, we want what we want when we want it..Then we realize that the gift is TRUST. We need to trust not only God but ourselves.
It is the fear of failure. It is self doubt. I hate that in myself.
Ahh….I soooo know this well and hate it about me as well. So how do we fix it? How do we rip it out? What is the cure for this? All of these questions have one answer IMO….We do it in God’s time. We do it slowly. We do it by accepting who WE are. We do it by coming to the realization that we cannot FIX another. We do it by…..LETTING GO.
So you doubt. Could they be right?
You question maybe I am not what I thought I was.
Maybe I am incapable of making decisions for myself.
Maybe it's easier just not to take chances.
Maybe it's easier just to take what people give me.
I WILL NO LONGER...
Take others criticism and judgment as a failure in myself or my choices.
Let actions or words of others affect my faith and my truth.
Let my failures (by my own assessment)keep me from living my life and my truth.
You know….I read the above, and realized that our MLC spouse must be going through the same turmoil/thought process. They clearly are questioning or recreating period(s) in their life. Are they dealing with the right way? Who really knows? What I do know is this…..(okay it is MO)…each of us is responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own moral compass. Each of us….well we justify our own position, when what we should do is….Love. Love not only our spouses, who have thrown us to the sea..but to also love ourselves and the things around us. Not easy…no…must be done though in order for us to continue the journey that is called LIFE.
I was upset of course and called her about it.
Why were you upset about it? What could you really do about it?
I responded in a not so calm fashion
Grit…we both need to feel and process this anger and hurt just not toward them. I am not sure what you meant by “not so calm fashion” so maybe I am reading too much into this. FTR….I was a hot blooded Puerto Rican so my interpretation of “not so calm” may be different than yours 
that I was just gving her space and living my promise to her to be patient reminded her of the email I sent 3 months ago
Maybe I have been reading too many of Cat’s posts (seriously Cat keep em coming)….I did not think that you needed to remind her of your email. This may have come across as condensending….”hi honey – I’m sure you forgot so let me be the better person and REMIND you of what I said”. I may be wrong here Grit…it is just how I read it.
FTR – I’ve done the same shiznit….like I said….Cat’s perspective from a women’s point of view has help me realize some of these behaviors.
I wanted to remind you of the email below that I sent over a month ago. I meant every word I wrote.
Once again…sounds to me like you are REMINDER her again. Does she have memory issues or is a part of you, maybe a small part…still trying to “get her to see it”. Someone once reminded me of my statements of……”It’s weird I am trying to get her to realize a logical point but she not thinking logically right now” (or something along those lines). My point is, you don’t have to remind her. She will see it and remember it when she wants to…if she ever wants to.
I see this now for what it is. It is HER journey.
Yes it is….while at the same time it is your journey as well my friend and you are walking and facing it like the the M***F***ing MAN that you are.
I truly understand now that I can only be the light.
The constant glow in the distance.
And in that light is my truth, my love for her.
A love that I gave before with conditions...
Conditions based on expectations or outcomes or circumstances
Yes, but now that light must remain dim for a bit, dim for her..dim UNTIL she turns on the switch…. Grit, I know how hard you are searching – I can see it – I can feel it….I know…I am in the same place….we both must LET THEM GO. When they are ready, if they ever are – they will flick the light switch on. A the light that really is your truth…your love my friend, will provide the light that she need. Only if she turns on the light.
In my weakness and confusion I allowed my light to go out.
No you did NOT! You may have felt that way…you may feel it now. True love my friend never dies – never! The dynamic of the situation may change, we may learn to live with it….but your love has not died!
IMO….know this…it is that LOVE that is in you that pulled her towards you to begin with. It is that Love that will pull her back again, if SHE so chooses to turn on the light. It is that LOVE in YOU…that will feel your soul…that makes you the MAN THAT YOU ARE.
You’re a good spirit dude. One hell of deep guy, open, giving and TRUE…and you are right….
It is part of the miracle that happened to you and yes YOU must trust yourself
God Bless and keep digging…don’t rush…continue to feel it….
Eric
Thanks for the posts guys.
I want to be clear on something that maybe got lost in my expression up above.
What I am speaking of really is love.
This is a choice.
As we move through this journey it is a process of self discovery. The LBS starts out with a lot of hurt and pain and self doubt.
I have already written about this transition from standing out of wanting answers and pain- to doing it as a choice for you.
To get to this point you must have detached completely and also to get here some may decide to go black as you have suggested Time.
I did have to do that for a time.
The choice to love is really to put yourself at risk and we have suffered the greatest pain of that risk in the betrayal that was returned.
When I speak of the light going on and off I mean that those are the conditions. ANY conditions. ANY behaviors that we have let play out from our own fears and weaknesses. These are the things we find in OURSELVES that we want to change. That we MUST change to be who we want to be.
Who we want to be is the LIGHT I speak of. It must be constant and it must be consistent. It cannot be contingent on some suffering that cannot be endured. It cannot be contingent on some action or non-action of your spouse.
To love (as we know it) is to suffer until you see what love is. This is so much part of who I am that it cannot be separated.
Love is the absence of suffering. But that absence of suffering comes from your OWN choice not because:
your spouse decided to come back
or decided to be nice to you
Or wasn't mean to you
Or agreed with you
or stopped seeing OP
or ANY F@CKING THING.
It is YOUR choice
That is the light that shines.
That is the miracle of which I speak
If you can get to THAT place then you see that your spouse is on their journey and you love them enough to be committed to their growth.
That growth means you step out of the way. You completely let go with love.
If they call you.
Why would you not answer that call?
Only if you still suffer. If you suffer then you are not there yet.
My W will continue to suffer and be in pain. I will no longer be part of that. I choose rather to be part of the solution.
For me that means love of the most extraordinary variety.
For me that means to be the man I am now becoming.
Ok, but why sending notes? Are they only responses?
I don't see anything wrong with responding or answering calls unless you have divorced and are now involved with somebody else.
Unconditional love has no attachment. It also says if your spouse divorces you and marries another that you know that is the path they have chosen and you let them go.
Hey True--just stopping by to see how you were doing. Looks like we are in the same current of waxing & wanning... Good & bad, strong & then doubtful.
No more notes or emails. If she wants to talk to you she will contact you. You know that nothing you say or write is going to come out the way you intend for it to, anyway. Not that you won't be clear--she just won't see it. So there is no point, right? If you need to put it down to work through it, then by all means. But only for that & don't ever send it.
I so honestly know what you mean about the light--and although I would LOVE for H to have felt that strongly about me, i can see another side of it.
You see the light as a miracle of love. True, True. It is.
But that light *might* be seen as something altogether different by her.
To her, in that MLC fog, that light that you want to keep lit as a beacon for her might just be far too glaring. You know how some oncoming cars have those annoying halogen headlights that blind you & make it difficult to see?
Like that. You can keep that light on, just make sure that it's not so glaring that it's blinding her, making it almost impossible to see to put one foot in front of the other and have an idea of where she is going.
Don't throw her off course by trying to light her way home, True.
In the meantime...(((big giant hugs)))
Very well said Shelbel! You are a natural!
Hang in there True!
(((hugs)))
True, I know how much it hurt to see her change her facebook status. I know because my h did the same thing. I did not call him about it. For a lot of reasons.
If we are to truly say that we are letting them go with love to figure out their journey and for us to figure out ours, then we have to follow that up with actions or they are just words, ya know?
Remember, this is how she feels right now. I know it hurts, I do. But, you can't talk her out of it, you can't guilt her out of it or reason her out of it.
As far at the email goes, you sent it once, she got it, right?
No need to bring it up again. Or resend it. You are telling her what she needs to feel and realize. Can't do that either.
Sweetie, this is hard stuff. There are days when you think you have it covered and days when you backslide. And that's ok. Just get back on the path.
So, no more emails, no more phone calls about facebook. She has to go through this in her own way. You have to let her. Let her walk it and you walk yours.
You write such beautiful words, True. But, you have to live them, my friend. You have to live them. Each and every day.
So, no more emails, no more phone calls about facebook. She has to go through this in her own way. You have to let her. Let her walk it and you walk yours.
I agree.
The email was to finish our conversation that we didn't finish because she had to get off the phone.
She was going to call me back and I didn't want to talk.
I figured I would give her my thoughts in email instead.
I don't email, text, phone, telekinisis, smoke signal, carrier pigeon, fedex,, mail, or courier by way of flying unicorns that crap rainbows.
I don't initiate anything.
The FB thing was emailed to me because it requested I confirm I was her husband so she obviously had taken it down and put it back up.
BUT
That is irrelevent. It initiated a convo that shouldn't have happened probably.
Or should have...now she wants to meet in person to discuss how she feels about our R.
I honestly don't know which way this will go.
Here is where I am.
Since Friday I have done a lot of thinking and soul searching and philosophizing...
I love my W.
I love her enough to know that she needs to make her own choices and go on her own journey.
Right now we are on different paths and as far as growth levels go we are not even in the same f@cking zip code right now.
The metaphor I tried to use was to describe that I am finally to a point that of the two (or maybe more) scenarios that can play out with this:
We reconcile or
We don't
I am ok with either because it still doesn't change the fact that I love my W. In fact it is because I love her that I have come to this realization.
This does not mean I don't want my M to reconcile, I do have that hope.
My GREATER hope is that she is able to grow and find peace. That is what I hope.
I have to accept the possibility that may be without me.
That is what I was trying to say in my post.
I will try to live this from this day forward...
Thank you all. This has been a hard lesson but an absolutely critical part of my journey.
I hate that anyone questions my decisions. I hate that I have been told my choices were wrong. That my choices are still wrong. I hate that I allow people to assume a position of authority over my decisions by their judgement and advice.
People seem to offer their advice without you asking for it. It presumes that you need correction and it presumes they have higher understanding and knowledge than you.
I feel I need to clarify this relates to friends and family NOT to my good friend on this board.
I had a little trouble communicating clearly today.
I wrote my post to you because these words concerned me:
I was upset of course and called her about it.
I was aghast at the crazy logic behind this.
I responded in a not so calm fashion
...that I will be patient and wait for her.
You should also know that my concern is out of genuine caring.
It's hard not to react to things our spouses do and say. But, they are in crisis. They are on their own journey and no amount of talking, explaining or anything else is going to hasten it.
If you really mean what you say, that you are going to love and let go, then you need to stop telling your wife you are going to be there patient and waiting because that is not what she is hearing. She is thinking, he is not hearing me. He is not getting it. Why can't he just get it?
So, my friend, if you have this conversation with her, keep your feelings and reactions in check. Listen to her, validate what she is saying. That's it. Anything else and she is hearing, blah, blah, blah.
I know I am not usually this blunt. I try really hard to be positive. But I am not above a soft tap when I need to give it. Especially when it is to someone who has come so far and I don't want to see lose any ground.
I know I am not usually this blunt. I try really hard to be positive. But I am not above a soft tap when I need to give it. Especially when it is to someone who has come so far and I don't want to see lose any ground.
Thank you.
I needed to hear that clarification because this is new to me.
This isn't about going, dark dim etc. Or pursuing messages.
I don't need protection or boundaries of no contact.
My communcations with her are her expressing things to me and my reactions to them.
He FB status change was a communication and an expression to me. Absolutely.
If you really mean what you say, that you are going to love and let go, then you need to stop telling your wife you are going to be there patient and waiting because that is not what she is hearing. She is thinking, he is not hearing me. He is not getting it. Why can't he just get it?
The waiting patient thing was communicated to her in early march and for the most part I have lived by that.
I am in a different place today. What is she trying to tell me I am not getting?
All the not communicating with her etc. she reads as me not wanting to help her or that I don't care?
You tell me and we will both know. NO WAY of knowing until she says it.
She says she wants to talk face to face.
I am ok with that.
And I am prepared for whatever comes out of her mouth.
I have to move this higher ground for ME.
Brook hit me f@cking hard my friend! I know where your heart is.
If you are saying it I need to hear it.
Honey, I know all the stuff below is heartfelt, but, to her it is you not getting that she doesn't want the marriage. Doesnt mean she really doesn't, doesn't mean she wont in the future, but right now, all the things she is saying and doing is her trying to tell you that. That doesnt mean she wont contradict herself because she is, after all, MLC. This stuff just pisses them off. She knows how you feel. Trust me, she knows. She doesnt think she has to heal. You telling her, will also piss her off. You've said it,written it, she heard it, now stop.
"I wanted to remind you of the email below that I sent over a month ago. I meant every word I wrote."
"The only thing I have to give of my own free will, without you asking, is my love."
"Although I get upset, it is more due to the fact that I am not part of your equation right now. MY hope is to be part of the solution, not the problem. I am sorry for my part in the breakdown of us, and I hope that you continue to grow and heal as a person, and that one day, we can come together again."
My friend, I know that you will get where you need to be. I know it. You are getting there. But, this is a process that takes time. You can't wish it, you can't rush it.
So, I am not telling you to go dark. That is your choice. I know you think that you are not pursuing, not pressuring. But, it subtle ways, you are. I dont want to see you have any setbacks.
Keep going.
to her it is you not getting that she doesn't want the marriage.
If this is true then this new information.
She has told me she doesn't want divorce.
She has told me "we are deliberately not divorced."
Now I know I am not supposed to believe what she says so maybe you're right.
Her recent actions are she went back to her pre M last name on FB.
Took me off as her H on FB
Said: I am not sure I want to be married to someone who won't help out when they know I have no money.
All this has been recent so yes this is new information and if you are right she is trying to tell me now that she doesn't want this M
Then my sitting here patiently is in and of itself an act of pressure.
Subtle as it is.
I think when we talk face to face I need to be prepared to hear those words directly from her lips.
I already know she is setting this up to put on me.
"you left me...twice."
"I don't want to be around your friends or your family"
Thank you Brook.
Thank you for being honest and direct in showing me this.
I am sad to hear it and to look at it BUT
I will be OK.
I really would rather hear the truth from her.
I feel I will be getting that very soon.
I'm sorry, sweetie, maybe I misspoke.
So, I should have said, she is not happy in the marriage. I think her actions and words have shown that.
Same advice stands, though. You are putting pressure on her by doing and saying the things you have been.
But, my friend, you arent just sitting here. If you just look back over my last couple of posts, I have told you why.
Look, you are in control here. You do what you feel is best. I can only tell you what I have learned and what has helped me.
I want the best for you. I want you to heal and grow and be happy and have peace. I feel the best way to get that is to just live your life.
True, I want to tell you something. I want to tell you how much I admire you for taking this journey. You have grown so much.
I know how hard this is. I know how much it hurts. I know that you want very much to save your marriage and to become the person you were meant to be.
We all try so hard each day to grow and learn and understand. We want so much to stay connected with our spouses and to learn what we need to and to get to where we need and want to be.
And in doing so, in trying so hard, we forget that sometimes it's best to just be still and listen to the quiet. Sometimes, it is best to not work on things for a little while and just be.
It is in the quiet that we find peace. It is in the stillness that we find love.
I wish so much that you do not feel the pain. I wish that for everyone on here. I wish that we could all fast forward to peace.
Please understand why I have posted what I have today to you. I want to be sure that in wanting so much, you do not lose what you have gained, that in trying so hard, you do not lose what you have learned.
So, my friend, find your center, your core. When you really do, you will find peace. I promise you that.
I fell asleep early last night.
All this growing is very exhausting.
I remember when my puppy was about 15 weeks old.
Being a little labrador he was very full of energy.
Eating my orchids, my couch, my shoes, playing with my ties, eating, peeing on everything...
Then one morning he just laid there.
He stayed on his bed sleeping most of the day
I knew he was ok cause he still wagged his tail and had a happy face.
He was just exhausted. From growing so fast.
I woke up early this morning and for the first time in I can't remember when I didn't feel anxious.
I feel peaceful.
I feel I know that I am in control of my life now.
I am ready to let go.
I have no anger.
I have no regret.
I am just ready to live.
Brooklyn
I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart.
I want to thank you for investing your time here to help me.
It is time and it is also part of you.
You see people here and you see the pain.
You want it just to go away.
Hit the fast forward button for them.
I didn't read your last post until this a.m. but I know you spent time thinking about me and just the right words to say.
And they were perfect.
Thank you to you and all (Mach, Cat, Jack, Lost)who take time and invest of themselves here.
And to my friends who are walking along side me (Eric, Shellybelly, Seeking, Mila, Missherlove to name a few)
This has been so far the most painful thing I have ever gone through
and also the most rewarding.
This has been so far the most painful thing I have ever gone through
and also the most rewarding.
(((Grit))) I feel the same.
to her it is you not getting that she doesn't want the marriage.
If this is true then this new information.
She has told me she doesn't want divorce.
She has told me "we are deliberately not divorced."
Now I know I am not supposed to believe what she says so maybe you're right.
Her recent actions are she went back to her pre M last name on FB.
Took me off as her H on FB
Said: I am not sure I want to be married to someone who won't help out when they know I have no money.
All this has been recent so yes this is new information and if you are right she is trying to tell me now that she doesn't want this M
Then my sitting here patiently is in and of itself an act of pressure.
Subtle as it is.
I think when we talk face to face I need to be prepared to hear those words directly from her lips.
I already know she is setting this up to put on me.
True,
Yes sitting patiently is a subtle act of pressure.
YOU are not sitting patiently.
You are growing, slowly some days, quickly others, but you are doing it.
Yes, prepare yourself to hear whatever may come out of her mouth, IF the meeting happens, because you honestly have no idea what she might say.
What you have seen, posted about above, really ISN'T new information if you think about it.
She had/has(?) OM. She has been living separatly from you. Even if she wasn't, she did sort of check out of the M.
However, she is still showing you confusion. She is trying on what her life without you might look like.
These are her choices. This is her path. She is going to test the waters and attempt to induce reactions from you.
Here comes the hard part now...
You accept either outcome, you have this meeting coming up...
What does TRUE want?
What does TRUE need IF she says she wants to reconcile...
What does that look like to YOU?
Are you ready for that?
Have you learned enough?
Because IF that is what she says and what YOU choose, YOU are going to have to be the leader...the strong one...ARE YOU that person yet?
On the flip side...
IF she wants D, what does that mean for YOU?
What is TRUE's life going to look like?
Who is TRUE?
What does TRUE need in HIS life to be true to himself?
You know what?
The answers to those questions, should be very similar...
Hard stuff my friend...
Then my sitting here patiently is in and of itself an act of pressure.
ONLY if you are doing it so that she KNOWS.
"Hey you over there! Look at me! Look at me sitting here waitng for you!! Did you see the size of that girls boobs? I sure didn''t!! Cause I only have eyes for you!!"
You do it for you...like in your post to BraveHeart then...it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
You stand so that she notices?
And you're doing it wrong, might as well have trick plastered all over it.
I want to be with the woman who wrote the words to me I posted way back in my thread.
The one that doesn't blame me for her pain.
The one who wants to work on herself.
The one who accepts responsibility for her own choices.
Who wants to be my partner. My equal partner.
Who is committed to her marriage
Who is no longer self absorbed
Who is at peace.
ALL OF THIS ^^^^^^^^^^ means she must grow and heal.
So what I want is for her to do that.
THAT is ALL I want right now.
What does TRUE need IF she says she wants to reconcile...
No more OM.
A serious expression of remorse for that choice.
An indication that she has begun a process of growth and healing
A commitment to work on the M.
A Heath candy bar.
What does that look like to YOU?
A flying unicorn that sh!ts rainbows (nickel jack?)
Maybe a blue one...
I will know when I see it. I know when my W is herself. When she is purposeful, calm and together. That person has been gone for a while.
I don't know how I will know that she has begun meaningful growth
Ideally I would like to have more time for me. Honestly I didn't really realize that was my answer. I shouldn't be pressing all this with her.
I am really busy with me right now (this is a fairly recent development)
I need time for the new me to be present and show up more in my life.
I need to feel comfortable in my skin. That is happening more and more every day but not nearly enough to where I am there when the lights go out.
I need time for this and I am still digging in.
It will never be enough. I took a huge jump this weekend.
I am truly ready to let her go on her journey and live my life for me.
I know that she has to grow at her own pace and at her own bidding and THAT she has to do without me.
THAT is what I realized.
THAT is the best thing for her
THAT is the best thing for me is to support that.
We do not have anything unless that happens.
Now answer the hard questions.
The ones about you.
At least for yourself.
I had to take a little breather
Sheeesh...
Be back a little later
Where's my candy bar?
IF she wants D, what does that mean for YOU?
I am not going to fight that. If she wants it then I'm sure she has done a lot of thinking about it.
I have decided I am not going to resist any of her perceptions because that is her reality and she should be able to live it.
I have been trying hard to work on this and yes I do want my M.
It's like she is pushing real hard against me, fighting me, if I let down my resistance where will her momentum carry her?
So it means I accept that she has to go on her way. I am excited about what lies ahead for me.
I want more of the peace I felt this a.m. when I woke up and that is a direct result of me focusing on my growth and what I want.
I will continue to let the new me take hold in my life.
What is TRUE's life going to look like?
I am going to focus on my business for starters. I am really excited about what is happening there. It is a part of me that I miss. It really is fulfulling and has brought my cinfidence back.
I am going to keep focusing on me and moving through the growth I know is still ahead of me.
Who is TRUE? What does TRUE need in HIS life to be true to himself?
I am a man committed his principles and I will try to never compromise them again for anyone.
My mistakes and regrets have come from losing my core. My core is what I am still trying to get back and know again.
I am still healing from these wounds.
It is important for me to be honest in everything now. Starting with myself.
I want to act with dignity.
I want to act with grace and charity
I want my faith to be strong
I want to love with the knowledge of it that I possess today.
I want courage
This hard to answer. What are you at your core and how do you live that? I can only express that by the words above and try to convert them into daily actions or reactions in my life.
With these things in my life and these things as part of my core I know my life will be full of joy and that I will live with peace in my heart.
I act with each of these each day in different measures and I want them to be pervasive in my life so that they are me.
I am committed to this process of continuing growth on my spiritual journey.
That is not who I am fully yet.
That is the man I am becoming.
It is important for me to be honest in everything now. Starting with myself.
I want to act with dignity.
I want to act with grace and charity
I want my faith to be strong
I want to love with the knowledge of it that I possess today.
I want courage
This hard to answer. What are you at your core and how do you live that? I can only express that by the words above and try to convert them into daily actions or reactions in my life.
With these things in my life and these things as part of my core I know my life will be full of joy and that I will live with peace in my heart.
I act with each of these each day in different measures and I want them to be pervasive in my life so that they are me.
I am committed to this process of continuing growth on my spiritual journey.
That is not who I am fully yet.
That is the man I am becoming.
Wow True...from your posts I have read, you are well on your way especially for someone so realitively new to all of this. I have been here a long time and I still can't articulating my thoughts nearly as well. Everything I post here just seems to be venting even though most of my thoughts run much deeper. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and inspiring even us "oldtimers".
Not that it needs to be said but, your W is not is not in her right mind if she doesn't appreciate your growth.
I wish you much success on your journey.
TG - you've been working hard and boy does it show
I am excited about what lies ahead for me
When I started to feel like that a little while ago, I knew that I have made it....A whole new world in opening up...so much to do, so much to learn. I'm still standing but I'm alive again.
Mila & Upside
Thanks it has been rough almost week now...
I am finding more and more strength from my knowledge.
Thanks it has been rough almost week now...
Hey Grit,
It gets better, it doesn't go away, but it does get better.
This too, shall pass and when it does the memory of the pain starts to fade.
This thing, this time, this week is just another step along the way. There will be more hard steps to take, this we all know, but you go into them with the knowledge that you will survive and come out on the otherside okay.
I am going to focus on my business for starters. I am really excited about what is happening there. It is a part of me that I miss. It really is fulfulling and has brought my cinfidence back.
I think when you start to think of and envision your future again and actively look forward to tomorrow is when it all comes together.
Life becomes fulfilling again, you get back in touch with that person inside that you miss, and the best part is this journey you are on will make that person you miss being an even better person.
I wanted to share this that I found.
It was written by a prophet ( I have never heard of this dude)
Kahlil Gilbran
But let there be spaces in your togetherness
And let the winds of the heavens dance between you
Love one another, but make not a bond of love:
Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls
Fill each other's cup but drink not from one cup.
Give one another your bread but eat not from the same loaf
Sing and dance together and be joyous,but let each one of you be alone,
Even as the strings of a lute are alone, though they quiver with the same music.
Give your hearts, but not into each other's keeping for
Only the hand of Life can contain your hearts.
And stand together yet not too near together:
For the pillars of the temple stand apart,
And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in
each other's shadow.
That is very cool TG...so true
Needed to put this down mostly for myself.
Yesterday was my 3 year wedding anniversary.
I debated whether or not to send card and decided to do it.
I found one under the section titled "difficult year"
I was really enthused that they had made a card section just for me!
There was only one card in the section so that's the one I got. The message was a good one. It acknowledged the challenges we are currently facing and had an upbeat finish to celebrate the memories that we have created together.
I mailed the card last week.
I had not talked to W since she had gone on NYC trip. She TM on her way back that she the trip had reminded her of a lot of good memories. We got engaged in NYC central park in front of the Bethesda fountain, the one with the angel.
I TM'd back that we will always have those memories.
She TM for fathers day becasue I am a dad to our choc. lab.
Thanked her.
She TM day before our anniversary that she rememebered the this day as being filled with excitement. I agreed and said that the best day was the next when we married. I said no one can take those memories and they good to have.
She got my card on monday and TM that it touched her heart.
I texted her happy anniversary yesterday and continued the theme of being thankful for good memories.
She TM'd "To you too."
I didn't expect anything more...
Grit,
I think that is awesome!!!
The shared memories are important, I am glad your W can recall those "Good" memories of the two of you together.
Good to hear from you, hope all else is going well with you.
Happy Little Friday, man!!!!
Cheers
You didn't find the MLC card ?
"Roses are red.
violets are blue;
They'll need dental records to properly ID you."
Oh wait...that is the card for the OM.
Awe...such a big sweetie-pie Grit getting her a card and all that chick stuff. : )
Hold the phones Chuck!
I just got a great money making idea...
I don't know but I think the cards would have a lot of f@cking profanity in them!
My Dearest F@ck-tard...
To my wonderful A$$hat...
For my loving B-terd on this special day...
Just sayin...
I LOVE it...
but if you knew me at all you knew I would.
Nah.....
On the cover, it says.....
LOOK INSIDE
When you open it, it says....
NO REALLY, LOOK INSIDE
Awe...such a big sweetie-pie Grit getting her a card and all that chick stuff. : )
I can't respond to this I am late for my mani-pedi appointment!
Hey how about MLC birthday card:
COVER
So you're turning another year older...
Look on the bright side...
INSIDE
Emotionally you're only 15!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
You write like me, you talk like me.
Then you do this:
You're like the female version of me. : )
"Happy Birthday to you, today is all about you!"
Inside:
"Not much different than the other 264 days in your Fukced up head!"
I only know about these because they use to show up on my credit statement....
4 times a month.
Sheeesh!
LMAO!!! I love them all. Especially the look inside part.
<~~~ the writer has nuthin'. go figure.
Ummm Jack ... what happened to the other 100 days??? Just sayin'.
Hmmmm ... lets add one for the OP ...
Cover:
Happy Anniversary ...
Inside:
Oh wait ... that's right, you're not married to him/her ... I AM!
Happy Little Friday!
PEI
hey Grit
How are things going?
May 29, 1995
That is the day I lost ME.
I was coming up on my 6 year anniversary to my W (1st M)
We were going to start to have a family.
We had just come back from visiting friends for the Memorial day weekend and I got the mail from our mailbox in front of the house.
Our phone bill had come and I tossed it along with the other mail on the counter.
Noticed when I walked by it again that the phone bill was gone.
Found it in W's purse.
Looked at it and my life has never been the same since...
All my innocence was lost in that moment.
Everything I thought I knew about my life and where I was going was torn from me when I ripped open that phone bill.
I was 29 years old.
It is 15 years later and I am fighting to find myself again.
ME
The core of ME.
For 15 years I have lived thinking I was the sum of the misery, pain and failures that were unleashed upon me that day.
I had a dream last evening that I was dying. I had some disease. So in my dream I drank something that would allow me to speed up the dying.
I was saying goodbye to friends and accepting my fate.
I don't know if I believe that dreams can translate into reality of the subconcious, but I did look up what it means.
Translation is you are ready to make significant positive changes in your life.
I wanted to even speed this up by dying sooner...
In my dream.
I will borrow this from the movie Magnolia
"We may be done with the past but the past is not done with us"
I realize that I have to go back to that day and build myself again.
To be the man I promised myself I would be
...and let no one compromise who I know I am.
Grit...
You keep winding the girls up here, and it may not just be a dream...
: )
.
You are finding your way through this, and this was the path that you were meant to walk, maybe after that happened.
You got sidetracked , and now you are finding your way again...
Keep taking those steps bro....
AND
If you would actually pay the dammmed bill, you may forget that date......Just sayin
What day is it ??????
Grit,
Honey, this rebuilding you speak of. You have been doing it.
That may be the day you lost you, but don't let it become the focus.
We can't undo or change the past, but we can see how events have changed us. So now, it is time to forgive yourself, let those events go, sound familiar?, and take a step forward...
Day by day, you will get stronger...
You are beginning to know yourself my friend...
Welcome to the beginning of the journey
That may be the day you lost you, but don't let it become the focus.
Yes you're right. I guess what I realized is that my pain and therefore my forgiveness had to go back that far...
I did not heal and I am living proof of why you have to go through this process or you will carry it forward.
Infidelity is the gift that keeps on giving...
Only YOU have the power to stop it.
When you give yourself the gift of forgiveness.
More to come...
Hey Grit,
Walking with you today man, 1 year anniversary of the bomb for me today.
I am choosing to celebrate today because it marks the beginning of a journey I will never finish.
A journey of growth. You too are on this journey and it is days like today that we stop and take a look over our shoulder.
We look back at the pain, and the turmoil and we taste it again to remind us to keep moving forward.
When you do look back, and you already know this, you see where you were and where you are now and you see just how far you have come.
So as we take a look back today we will have more clarity in our lives for doing so. Hopefully when we fix our eyes back on the future, the path we are on will become more clear as we continue on our journey.
Walking with you today man, 1 year anniversary of the bomb for me today.
Well, congrats then !!!
And it is on a Little Friday!!!
Hey man, it's just a day, and it is what you make it...
IF I would have told you then, looking forward, that you would learn so much on this journey, and be thankful for it, last year...you would have told me to pound sand...
Looking back ?
Doesn't seem that long now...
Happy Little Friday to you !!!
What's on the jukebox tonight?
Stealing my Thunder Mach, posting to my thread in a minute.
I think I am going to put the jukebox on "shuffle" tonight.
My Apologies Miss.....
I'm just used to things on Tutugritters thread happening ,
Ssssllllooooooooowwwwwlllyyyyy.......
: )
My man Grit
Yeah..you lost yourself…who the f doesn’t.
In my book you are NOW MAN enough to stand up and admit it.
Man enough to look hard at YOURSELF and make the changes that YOU want.
Man enough to walk the walk.
Man enough to know that May 1995 is in the PAST.
Man enough to know that right now you control what the future holds.
Man enough to make mistakes, correct them, and keep going
Man enough to throw your heart out for everyone to see
Man enough to get to a place of acceptance
Man enough to criticize a Puerto Rican from NY (sorry I had to inject a little humor here)…seriously……
Man enough to finally….be YOU.
You’re a good man – don’t forget it. You will make someone very happy one day..actually your doing it now and that someone is YOU.
peace
Eric
Man enough to criticize a Puerto Rican from NY (sorry I had to inject a little humor here)…seriously……
I only f@ck with you cause i like you really really alot!
Thanks for your thoughts and your friendship.
You guys need to get a room...LMAO.
Can't you just see them checking into the hotel in their matching I heart Beaver shirts ... LMAO!!!
Ok that's enough of that!
Can't you just see them checking into the hotel in their matching I heart Beaver shirts ... LMAO!!!
*snort*
With one pink straw & one lilac straw.
lmao!!
Seriously, True...
I'm proud of you. You have come so far. You are a good man, and if this journey has shown you that, then it was worth it.
I'm proud to *know* you. Tonight, sitting here, drinking Margaritas & avoiding writing my column, I will toast you.
You & MHL.
And everyone else who has made this journey & has made it easier for me.
I'm feeling a group hug coming on.
Unless Eric & True are still locked in one of their own.
True - FTR they have a special at the super 8 motel...
LMAO...totally LMAO....
Happy 4th everyone.
I doubt they are wearing I heart Beaver if they are hugging.
More like I heart Rooster.
Geez that was a layup Jack...
I have been thinking about a lot of this stuff today that has been posted on other's threads and I have a little perpective I'd like to share.
As I posted today I was married before my current W. I got married at 23. We dated through most of college.
She had the first A in 1995 as I posted. Three years later I found another communication from a different guy. Tried to get her to go to counseling. She went twice. Then said she didn't need to. Our M was just roomate status. We went to retrouveille. She left after a day and half...
Had a last valiant effort to get the M on track and went away for a weekend.. Well she ends up taking a call at 2 a.m. from another guy she met skiing while we are supposed to be working on our M. Gets out of our bed where we had just ML to go to another part of the house to finish the call. I heard the guy's voice when she answered the phone. She told me it was her girlfriend...well that was the end of the lying and the M.
WAW or MLC(kind of young for that) I don't know. Maybe just confused woman. I left and eventually we got a mutual uncontested divorce.
Now I didn't know about DB techniques but I don't remember pursuing etc. I wasn't mean just kind of let her do her thing, I did mine. She was the one who invited me on the last chance weekend to save the M.
My point is I guess I did do the expose the A thing, etc, and moved on with my life. Did that the first time and then it repeated. Gave her what she wanted after the second and third time. Space and all the time to carry on with whomever. I dated who I wanted and so there you go. The approach as directed in Newcomers. Not to the letter I admit.
All the talking in the world and she still did what she was going to do.
I know every case is different.
The difference is I never dealt with my anger and my doubts. It was easy to blame everything on her.
Well I am the poster child for the fact that you carry this crap forward.
This time is different. Coming here is different. It doesn't matter if my W is MLC or not.
Did I start out thinking my tactics would work?
Yes
Then, as I have posted, something changed. I learned about myself. I dealt with my pain and my anger.
IMO that part DOES NOT HAPPEN unless you stand for your M to begin with.
That is the time that you find out who you are. When you detach and look at yourself. You can't do that with anger and resentment in your heart.
THAT is the difference.
Doormat? I was in total control when I left my first W. No one was going to treat me that way and I walked off into the sunset with my swagger and bravado. No doormat when I left. With...
My anger.
IMO when you detach with love you have all the power in the world because you learned who you are.
You have learned that no one can take that from you.
That is real courage. That is real change.
You learn
Compassion
Charity
Faith
Honer
Grace
Dignity
Dignity? That is something you own yourself not what someone gives you.
None of these things does someone give you. Or refuse to give you.
YOU own them.
They are yours.
Anyone can react to the fire in their belly.
It takes a stronger person to stand there with courage. Steadfast in your own belief and character.
And learn a better way through your own pain.
Learn that YOU control how to react to another. That you are not a victim of another's actions.
Then you are no longer a burden to the world, but a contributor.
You are no longer part of the problem, but help in the solution.
I am one who has walked that other path.
I can only say that choosing this one has made all the difference.
Just sayin'
Just sayin' with all the confidence in the world...
Well, Grit.
That's all fine and well (loving detachment), and it's easier over time, but that doesn't mean you can't keep living your life and even move on if you are ready.
That's my two bits, anyway.
There's no point in being angry, there's no point in being supplicating and using a failed M was an excuse to walk around broken either.
Stuff happens. People make mistakes, life isn't always easy, so you heal, you get back up, and you keep on living, right?
And there in lies the difference between moving FORWARD and moving ON.
The first time, Grit moved on.
He didn't really heal, even if he might have thought he did.
He is learning that now. Curious how that may have affected this current M?
More than likely, it had some sort of negative impact.
This time, he may move on, but for now he is moving FORWARD.
Learning HOW to heal. WHAT it is that he needs to work on, so that this will NOT have anywhere near the impact on any future R that it could have had he followed the same path as his first M.
That's all fine and well (loving detachment), and it's easier over time, but that doesn't mean you can't keep living your life and even move on if you are ready.
Loving detatchment, is not just fine and well, it is something that is necessary, in order to really release the anger, hurt, and frustration that we LBS feel.
No one here ever says to stop living your life and simply wait for your wayward S to return. In fact, what we talk about is exactly the opposite.
The only thing that we don't advocate is dating, UNTIL you really are ready to move on.
It is game playing, a ploy, and basically something that in the end will end up hurting people who don't need to be hurt if you really aren't ready for it.
Loving detatchment, and moving FORWARD, allows the LBS to know when they truly are ready to move ON.
Grit, a huge day for you my friend.
(((Hugs)))
Oh crap, you made me be girly. Bonehead
Geez Grit ... hanging around me too long huh? Your posts are getting a little long winded ... turning into a bit of a 'mad typist' yourself! Lol ...
Oh, and Eric ... it's Happy 1st for we Canadians dude! But Happy 4th to all my American friends!
PEI
Cat-Thank you...
PEI- there was no short way to say that...
It was 15 years in the making.
It needed to be said though.
Thank you all for listening.
Are you implying I tell people to hold onto anger and resentment and get involved in relationships before they have at least worked through those feelings (and I would hope other issues as well)?
I think I sense an undercurrent in some of these posts of folks NOT really moving forward. I could be wrong.
I sense an almost need to hang onto something there.
Now... most folks can work through horrible grief in 2-6 months (nearly 70%), and I am not talking about cheating or failed marriages; I am talking about an earthquake that burries half the people you know in a city or the horror of real genocide. More than 2/3rds of the folks who go through those horrors are back to work and living life in 2-6 months.
About 15% of the people out there hold onto their greif like it's some kind of special treasure, like it is WHO they are. They do this for YEARS and YEARS (sometimes their whole life).
I worry about that 15%.
True, your first wife - well, all of that was her choices, her stuff and frankly, I get the feeling that you are wondering if you should have done things differently. Cant change the past - you can only learn from it.
Dont get hung up on it either. Every single step, every second of our life leads us to where we are in this moment - which is exactly where we are supposed to be. This is all unfolding as it should. Your job right now is to take it in, use it, and keep going.
Look in front of you. Follow the steps of the path you are on. You cannot go wrong if you do.
So, be the best True you can be. Do more, help more, learn more - be more. That is when our journey really kicks in.
You are a good man, my friend. This is tough stuff. Really tough. Do not count the years, only the moments. That's the stuff that matters. When you realize, when you see and hear and feel what you are supposed to, when you change and grow and learn -those moments, those moments are the real deal.
well, all of that was her choices, her stuff and frankly, I get the feeling that you are wondering if you should have done things differently.
Not wondering now. That is my point.
This is what have learned from my current sitch and now can apply it.
I did have to process this finally.
It was something I never got answers to.
I just moved on.
I didn't walk around like a zombie or anything. I never really thought about it conciously.
It was more deep down, something nagging me, undermining my sense of self.
It has come to the surface and needed to.
So now that I have the knowledge to look at myself I discoverd there is a wound there that I hadn't looked at for a long time.
I never went through the healing process I am going through now.
Did I detach from her? Yes. Did I detach with love? No.
Look in front of you. Follow the steps of the path you are on. You cannot go wrong if you do.
I am doing this.
This part came up from digging.
I am getting a very clear picture now of who I was and
Now who I want to be.
It is a PROCESS though
I am not focused on the time only on the daily steps forward.
Hey Grit ... didn't mean anything by it ...
I continue to learn a lot from your journey, your process ... and I agree with you about the LBS journey - how it must start with standing for your S and your M. While standing, some here will begin to really see their strength and character, perhaps for the first time, and then they will choose to take that next step forward, to really detach and focus on themselves and that's when their journey begins to evolve.
I too am seeing things come to the surface for the first time in my life, and I'm starting to understand that they are surfacing now because I am ready and able to deal with them. I am strong and getting stronger.
Anyone can react to the fire in their belly.
It takes a stronger person to stand there with courage. Steadfast in your own belief and character.
And learn a better way through your own pain.
Learn that YOU control how to react to another. That you are not a victim of another's actions.
Then you are no longer a burden to the world, but a contributor.
You are no longer part of the problem, but help in the solution.
I am one who has walked that other path.
I can only say that choosing this one has made all the difference.
Amen brotha.
PEI
Hey Grit ... didn't mean anything by it ...
I know that PEI! You know my sense of humor...
I understood how you meant it
And there in lies the difference between moving FORWARD and moving ON.
No one here ever says to stop living your life and simply wait for your wayward S to return. In fact, what we talk about is exactly the opposite.
The only thing that we don't advocate is dating, UNTIL you really are ready to move on.
Loving detatchment, and moving FORWARD, allows the LBS to know when they truly are ready to move ON.
I think that so many friends and family want to see some sort of outward expression that we the LBS are okay, that we have "accepted" what the WAW/MLCer has done or choosen.
Dating or "Moving On" to someone else is definitely an outward expression and they can say to themselves " LBS is okay, I don't have to worry about them anymore".
The thought never occured to them that you may not be interested in "moving on". It could be that we the LBS, lovingly detatch and don't move on to someone else not because we are waiting on the WAS but because we don't feel the need to have an R with another person right now.
I agree with Grit that it is a process to get to that point where you are truly ready to move on.
I think my point is that just because you get to that point of being ready to move on doesn't mean you have to move on to another person.
Hey Grit ... didn't mean anything by it ...
I know that PEI! You know my sense of humor...
I understood how you meant it
I know ... just throwing it out there ... if you feel like a chuckle, read my latest post on my thread ....
Did I detach from her? Yes. Did I detach with love? No.
^^^^^^ yep.
So important. So very important. And the difference between the person who moves on & harbors no resentment towards the other person, and someone who moves on & still can't stand their ex 20 years later.
Big difference.
I'm s'posed to be writing my column right now--and it just so happens it's on the power of forgiveness. Good timing, huh? It's important for US, not for them. Forgiving is never about the other person. And if someone thinks it is, they aren't truly letting themselves heal.
I might get 2x4d for this one... but...
I am actually looking forward to dating again. I don't know if *dating* is the right word. I am looking forward to getting to know someone, to trust someone, to take a chance on life again. And on love. It's knowing that my life isn't over. That I have so much to offer & that I deserve to be happy. It's believing in the power of love. And believing that it can, and will, happen to me again. Someday.
I'm not saying that I'm going to go off the deep end with the first man who comes along. If that were the case, I'd have been gone a long time ago. (and as a result, would probably NEVER found my way here).
Before the separation, and before these boards & the people on them, I vehemently denied that I would EVER even consider getting married again.
Now I truly believe that marriage can work. With two people who are dedicated to making it work. Together.
I'm not a hopeless romantic.
I'm a hopeful one.
Grounded in reality, but still believing.
There is something I need to put down here.
I didn't undertsand that I had come through a major part of my journey until I recently looked back.
We start this journey by deciding on which path to take.
The one that leads us here is covered in briars and brambles. It is the tougher road.
What is it we seek at the end?
In the beginning it is to R our M.
And to heal ourselves.
To understand.
Along the way we do get answers
And we grow and understand.
Now at this point is where we just feel joy at our new found self. Our pain is manageable and we have confidence and courage in ourselves and so we look down the path and keep walking. And now the path is open and the sun shines down on us.
It is this part of the journey that we RECEIVE grace.
I know this has a mystical religious connotation. To me it is the capacity and ability to understand compassion and love.
And in my mind it can be given and received.
Receiving grace is wonderful and it makes us feel like we can go do anything.
When this happened for me I was overcome with joy.
Then I looked back at my W and wondered could she ever get to where I am.
She is really lost, I can't imagine spending my life with someone knowing what I know now, that doesn't get it. That isn't where I am.
What is the upside to me waiting?
Here is where the path diverges again in the wood.
He is where we feel we can choose the path with our new self and live a joyous life. We have finally found the path to happiness.
Was our goal to only come here and heal? To grow and find our new self?
I say to you all thank you for the GRACE you have GIVEN me. I'll be on my way.
Bye MLC/WAS. I know you are just confused and scared and well I really don't think you are capable of being a person I can be with now...
...Now that I am confident and the opposite of the way you made me feel.
Then if I do THAT what makes me any different than what she did to me?
She saw fault in me that she believed could not be changed.
But I am different aren't I?
The temptation in the face of complete rejection?
My spouse continues to reject themselves.
Or
Is this an opportunity for me to live what I believe.
To give the GRACE I have been given.
By leaving my spouse I confirm to them all the doubt they have in themselves, all the doubt they have about love and our M.
I have an opportunity, NOT an obligation.
An opportunity to live the true expression of what I believe it means to love another.
To give grace, to express love with no expectation...
of anything in return.
For me that is standing for my M in the face all doubt.
I know I do not have to say this to her.
My decision and my actions will speak this to her.
Until I have gone long enough so that I am whole.
I don't know how long that is.
I think I will know.
Grit,
I hope with all my heart that your W, my H, and all our spouses can get to that place you so poignantly spoke of. That place of joy and happiness.
I want my H to find that for himself whether our M survives or not.
Thank you for your thoughts and words. You are gifted.
In what way....I'm not sure about...
That's kinda what I was thinkin too...
LMFAO!
I love you guys!(platonically not in a Mach sorta way)
TG, I have been exploring grace a lot lately as well. It was really driven home a few months ago in church and the subject was grace. Not sure if any of you are Lost fans, but they showed the clip where Ilana was chasing after Ben. Ben was going to join Locke's clan (evil) because he had done so much bad stuff that he thought the bad people were the only ones who would have him. Ilana (representing the good side) responded with "I'll have you."
That clip reminded me in many ways of how I feel toward my H. Regardless of all the crap that we have both brought to our marriage, if we can work through that, I'll have him. To realize that I had that mindset of grace the whole time helped me to receive grace from the Lord even more.
Perhaps that is a little too soft and spiritual, but it was a significant even along my journey and I just wanted to share!
[quote=J3B]Little bus sort of way
LMFAO!
I love you guys!(platonically not in a Mach sorta way) [/quote
Thanks for the laughs!!!
One of these days I am going to learn how to do the quote thing!
If this is for me...you might want to re-think the whole holding your breath thing!
platonically not in a Mach sorta way
can someone expand on this? Hey did I just say expand? I meant clarify...
ROLFLMAO...."in a Mach sort of way"....in a Mach sort of way...
On a serious note..
Grit your words are real man...You my friend rock! BTW can I borrow the pink beaver shirt that PEI sent ya
Just askin...
Eric
Grit your words are real man...
Eric
ok...I just got some instructions on how to quote...here goes...
yeah for me!!! You can breath now Jack!
Good for you on learning the quote thing, CW!
Breathe Jack. Inhale through the nose until it fills up your lungs and belly. Exhale slowly through the mouth. Great for calming oneself down, lowering blood pressure and oh yeah, labor.
ummm ... where's my nickle? .... just sayin' ...
Good for you, Mach.
You can only do what you feel is right.
It sounds like you are in a better place now.
Cheers, my friend.
Good for you, Mach.
You can only do what you feel is right.
It sounds like you are in a better place now.
Cheers, my friend.
Wow I've been here way too long. Or I'm just really sleepy.
It's like when you call your kids by each other's names...
MachGritEricJack...whoeverthehellyouare, get over here!
lol sorry dude
Well spoken, Grit.
After reading through your thread, it seems like you and I DO have some similarities......
Especially the carrying of the baggage from the previous relationship, into this one. I still remember first discovering that state of grace I found when I was finally able to realize that I was carrying the crap forward. And seeing clearly how I had been looking to my xw for validation of me....and how the only person that could truly fufill that role was ME. Not her.
Well done, brother.