Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: sleeper New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/05/09 07:40 PM
X called today, said she wanted to talk about the kids "afterschool stuff" as school is about to begin. The conversation quickly revealed what she was really wanted.

We have joint custody and exactly 50/50 domicile. We both have the kids every other week. What she wants is for me to pick up and take care of the kids the week she has them until she gets off work. She has abused this kindness in the past occasionally going to dinner with OM before calling me that she was off work (she works an irregular schedule.

She went on to say I didn't help her last year. This upset me as the truth is I did quite a bit but became less available to her after her and OM were engaged. Of course she remembers and focuses on the times I did not. DD was even saying from the backseat of the car, "Yes you did." during the phone convo with X. I asked, "What's the deal, has OM said he won't help you?" to which she became upset and said, "Are you saying he's an "*sshole" or something?"

The thing was left not completely resolved as she is considering two afterschool care options and my participation or lack thereof could have an impact upon her choice.

Right now I'm letting the sleeping dog lie.

Once again I feel in a no-win sitch as wither I will become the "*sshole" or dceny her of experiencing a life without my presence.

I think I need to be the "*sshole" for now.
Posted By: dncrm Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/05/09 07:50 PM
Yes you probably will be an a-hole but you'll probably be one whether you do what she wants in this instance or not. Maybe it's time that she felt the consequences of her actions. It's just not the reality of your current situation for her to expect that you owe her to be her backup. Just one of the many perks she will be giving up for her new life.

I've been kicking around here for quite for more years than I care to admit to and this is a very common scenario. The faces may change but the expectations on the part of our crazy spouses are pretty much the same.
Posted By: graceallday Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/05/09 09:26 PM
SLEEPER - its simple --- change the custody----she wants this you AGREE and with that we change the custody OFFICALLY and of course there is NO REASON to have this be an issue as SHE is asking YOU......should be a simple submit to the court that you both agree too......I assume someone is paying some one child support......????

I think the kids should be with you more anyway......so AGREE WITH HER...BUT WITH THE AGREEMENT COMES THE DOCUMENTS TO MODIFY ACCORDINGLY...REMEMBER SHE IS NOT MARRIED TO YOU ANYMORE AND THEY ARE BOTH YOUR KIDS...SO IT MUST BE DOCUMENTED WITH THE COURTS.....

I say this and in my case my 17 year old son....is always callin me for rides ( he gets license next week) on his Dads week cause his Dad just has him fend for himself......now if he was younger I would change custody......at his age I wont bother but you should set the tone you have years of this stuff left
Posted By: forward Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/06/09 01:07 AM
Her own remark about the a-hole is interesting. Something tells me that you're right on target and she knows it.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/06/09 05:18 AM
Bingo, forward.

I myself thought it was interesting that when I asked if OM won't help anymore she in effect referred to him as an "*sshole" in her response. I think they've struggled with this (and probably had the convo) before. As I said I backed off being quite so available after they got engaged and it must have become an issue between them.

X deffinately noticed as she said I didn't help last year (she only remembers the end of the school year after they were engaged) and continued by saying how tired she is at the end of her day and mentioned I get off earlier than she does and could easily pick the kids up for her. Yes I have no life and live only to serve........NOT !

Earlier this week she asked me to keep the kids for her two days next week so she can go on a trip with OM as he will be traveling out of town and she has the "opportunity" to go with him.

"I love the night life, I love to boogie...." Gloria Gainer

I was only a little surprised to find OM at her home with the kids a week ago when she called and asked me to take DS to the doctor for pink eye. He couldn't take him? She was very greatful and said she would call OM and he would take the kids from me later that day. Never happened. He is an arrogant sort of jerk and fond of telling others where they have gone wrong and what their responsibilities are so I can just hear him saying, "Those are Sleepers kids, he should be watching them whenever you need him to watch them, not me."

Early on in this X remarked, "He doesn't have kids and he's not a kid friendly kind of guy." And more recently DD said X told her, "OM is just trying to adjust to having children around." During most of the past 2 years he basically moved in with X the weeks I had kids and moved back to his place when she had the kids. He no longer has a place of his own as he has moved in with X.

When dropping off the kids I have heard X tell them to go straight to their rooms. That made me angry because it is THEIR HOUSE more than his and I wondered if it wasn't her attempt to keep them out of the way.

The hard thing is the kids would rather be with me most of the time and I would rather have them with me. However......

I'm about to become a big *sshole about this.
Posted By: fisherman Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/06/09 11:43 AM
Originally Posted By: sleeper
I'm about to become a big *sshole about this.


Stay firm Sleeper. Yes be the A-hole, but be the nicest, most cheerful, upbeat, confident A-hole you can be. smile
Posted By: forward Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/06/09 01:13 PM
Sleeper, Obviously OM didn't consider that the kids are part of the package.

Fantasy land is crumbling, and it has really only barely begun......
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/06/09 03:25 PM
Here's one for all you dream analysts out there......

I tossed and turned this AM and didn't want to get out of bed. I'm a little depressed because of all I've got on my plate with the recent nuptuals and decisions that must be made about my elderly, recently injured mother's longterm care.

I dreamed I wasn't completely moved out of my old apartment. There was quite a bit of stuff there, the little odds and ends that drive you crazy near the end of a move. I decided to take a shower but couldn't find any towels and remembered I had already moved them to my new apt.

A couple of maintainence men came in, both were a little miffed that I was there and my stuff was in their way as ther had orders to do some repairs. It was then I noticed some of my stuff was missing and I assumed they had taken it as they had obviously been in the apt before then.

Then X came to my old apt in my dream. It was obvious she was pregnant, about 5-6 months along. I mentioned it to her and her only reply was that she wished she had worn something different as the top she was wearing made it show. I followed her oustside and took out a NEW CELL PHONE I had bought earlier in the dream. I really wasn't happy with it as it was styled for a LITTLE GIRL with a lot of PINK and very decorative.

I walked up to X and began to whisper something in her ear (don't remember what). Just as I did OM walked up and immediately became very angry, and taking off his coat to fight me. I walked away and back into the apt. END OF DREAM.

I awoke this AM to DD (who had snuck into my bed) saying someone is at our door. I heard the very light knocking and told her it wasn't our apt. They knocked again and DD said, "Yes it is, dad." I got up with my eyes half close and walked to look out the peephole fully expecting nobody to be there. When I looked through it there was X!

I opened the door and she commented, "Late night?" as it was mid-morning and I hadn't answered the phone when she called or answered the door the first time. Half awake I responded, "Yeah?"

X then said I need DD CELL PHONE, OM has lost his. DD's phone is on her plan. The kids were up and heard and DD went to get it. X looked around the apt a bit while DD retrieved phone and commented positively saying the master bedroom is big, etc. after DD gave her the phone, a pretty PINK one, X left.

X was back knocking at the door just moments later. She said, "This isn't the phone I need, I need the other one that was OM"s because it has the numbers and contacts he needs." OM had given DD his old phone when they were on vacation, maybe it was a pre-paid or he was about to get a new one.

That's weird. I dream about X, OM and a CELL PHONE styled for a LITTLE GIRL and before I wake up X is at the door, OM is waiting in the car outside and they need a CELL PHONE the first of which was PINK from my DAUGHTER.
Posted By: frank_D Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/06/09 06:01 PM
Originally Posted By: forward
Her own remark about the a-hole is interesting. Something tells me that you're right on target and she knows it.

I got that too.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/06/09 06:39 PM
yeah. At the same time she came across as very defensive of OM. As if on some level she knows he is a ______ but is very much ready to defend him (and therefore her own choice of him).

A very good mutual friend said a year ago, "So is so defensive of him." This good friend noticed OM's negative qualities but whenever she attempted to point them out to X she defended him.

This same friend did not attend the wedding and thinks X will regret the marriage in 3-5 years.
Posted By: forward Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/07/09 12:05 AM
Old apartment w/things behind--you have not let go of the past situation.

W's pregnancy--something new is going on; she may be trying to hide it from you but you are still aware of it on some subconcious level.

Phone--could be just phone, but also possibly connection, talking....

There are lots of dream dictionaries out there.

I haven't had interesting dreams as of late.
Posted By: Andabelle Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/07/09 10:27 PM
That's pretty spooky.

Maybe what the other poster said about asking for more than 50% custody if she keeps wanting you to keep them on "her" days... something to consider?
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/08/09 02:01 AM
Just dropped X as a "friend" on my facebook page.

Should have done that a while back.
Posted By: forward Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/08/09 02:19 AM
I wonder what her reaction will be?

I can kind of guess.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/08/09 09:01 AM
I doubt she'll notice. At least she acted puzzled when I mentioned to her we were friends on facebook a couple of months ago.

But then again that was in front of OM.
Posted By: fisherman Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/08/09 12:41 PM
Originally Posted By: sleeper
Just dropped X as a "friend" on my facebook page.

Should have done that a while back.


I agree, I also have a few choice folks on my blocked list for now. I know for a fact they do some snooping of their own.

I have a feeling the further you drift apart, the more she is going to be hit with reality and it may not be pretty for a while. Stay the course, and most importantly do the distancing thing for you.
Posted By: job Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/08/09 12:53 PM
sleeper,
trapt has given you excellent advice. Please listen to him. The more you distance and not be readily available to bail her out of her many situations, the better. If she wants you to care for the children more hours than what has been stipulated on paper, I would go back and have the visitation/care giving issue revisited and go from there.

Blocking her in Facebook is an action that she will "hear" loud and clear. Actions always speak louder than words w/people in crisis or in the world of denial. Stay the course and do the distancing for you, not for a reaction from her.
Posted By: graceallday Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/08/09 03:07 PM
Sleeper yes agree with what everyone says....this game of "life" your wife thinks is all about HER....WELL.... NOT

Distance for YOU !

just keep thinking of the kids as you go forward....polite will be good so the kids can make the best of this crummy situation...past that...LET HER HAVE WHAT SHE WANTED

I think your future is BRIGHT
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/09/09 06:08 PM
I had another dream night before last and figured it out last night.

I was on a school bus and knew a nuclear attack was coming. I planned to get on the floor between the seats and cover myself with my coat as that was the only action I could take. I estimated how severe the blast would be and as it would be some distance away I figured I'd be OK.

When the blast did occur it was much worse than I estimated. My forearms were burned by radiant energy as they were on the seat and not as protected as the rest of my body even though they had been covered by my coat.

The dream was symbolic of the end of our M. I knew for some time it was inevitable and took some action to protect myself. The reality is that the event has been much more destructive than I predicted and I am "burned" worse than I thought I would be.

Bus = Symbolic of a journey
Nuclear blast = Divorce
Burns = Damage

When the dream ended I was still on the bus.

This journey ain't over.
Posted By: SoCo Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/09/09 06:18 PM
Yes, I have a lot of those symbolic dreams myself. Interesting how our mind works, even when we're sleeping, isn't it?
Posted By: Silver Fox Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/09/09 06:26 PM
I've read that it's not what exactly happens in the dream, but how you feel when you wake up that's important.
Posted By: forward Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/09/09 08:44 PM
SF, I think that's true. I have noticed that whatever I was dreaming tends to set the mood for the entire first half of the day! That's a lot.

Sleeper, Your own interpretations are the most important.
Posted By: Walking Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/09/09 09:41 PM
Quote:
When the dream ended I was still on the bus.

This journey ain't over.


So sunshine - you gonna wait for someone to come and get you off that bus and dress your wounds ....OR... are you going to drag yourself up, find the first aid kit, pull a couple of other injured people out and/or walk in the opposite direction from the blast to find a safe place to heal?

Take care, V
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/10/09 02:25 AM
Maybe I should have said, "My journey isn't over."

I had a lot of dreams for the first few months post bomb. Funny I'm having them again now. I found a really good dream interpretation site: DreamMoods.com with the best dream symbol dictionary I've ever seen.

To sum up the last two dreams:

1)I still have work to do on myself that wasn't completed while living in my last residence and there was some indication it will be completed while at my present one. (the towels that had already been moved to new apt preventing me from taking a shower at the old apt)

2)The damage is worse than I thought it would be. (the burns on my arms being more severe than expected)

3)I'm down on myself for handling things the same way I did in the past. (the coat I used to cover my arms (you have to go to a dream dictionary to figure that one out))

I'm not going to attempt to figure out X appearing to be pregnant or allowing me to whisper in her ear or OM wanting to fight me in the first dream. I do believe taking out my new phone which was pink in the dream is an indication that I have dealt too softly with her and in a feminine way.

"Friends, Romans, countrymen (and X-wives?) lend me your ear!" Don't ya love Billy Shakespeare?

I haven't put a lot of faith in dreams my entire life although I know I must sound as if I have. Waking up from a dream the other morning to find elements of it happening in reality has peaked my interest. Maybe that happened with dream #1 so I'd pay attention to dream #2.

"He's a loon. A great white loon flapping its wings and squalking all about!" Basil in Faulty Towers as played by John Gleese
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/10/09 01:22 PM
DS called on X'x cell last night. He was with X, OM and DD and they were leaving the lake. The purpose of his call was to tell me he learned how to water ski. After talkin with him for several minutes, DS wanted me to talk to X and handed the phone to her. It always sad when he does that as its obvious he still wants us to have some sort of R.

X and I talked about DS's accomplishment for a moment. X said she had taken pics of him sking and would send them to my Facebook page. I can't help but think she said that because I removed her as a friend a few nights ago and she can't do that anymore therefore it was her coded way of saying "I noticed you took me off your Facebook page as a friend." I made no comment other than, "Would you send them to my e-mail instead?" To which she responded, "Yes."

She then mentioned she has decided which after school care service to us this year. She went on to say I may used the service the weeks (every other) that I have the kids and, "I'll need your help picking them up the weeks I have them." Here we go again. I didn't engage her on this as we had a brief discussion a couple of weeks ago in which I suggested that was now OM's job. I guess I'm going to have to be more firm about it. This discussion was a little different as it wasn't "I'm going to need help" and more like she was suggesting she would trade the option of me using her service in exchange for me picking up the kids for her when she needed.

I've got to think this through and present it to her in a nice but firm manner that makes a set boundary clear.
Posted By: fisherman Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/10/09 01:38 PM
Originally Posted By: sleeper
X said she had taken pics of him sking and would send them to my Facebook page. I can't help but think she said that because I removed her as a friend a few nights ago and she can't do that anymore therefore it was her coded way of saying "I noticed you took me off your Facebook page as a friend." I made no comment other than, "Would you send them to my e-mail instead?" To which she responded, "Yes."


Perfect. That is exactly what she was getting at. I hear so much coded crap just like this as well. Good man for not saying anything.
Posted By: forward Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/11/09 12:40 AM
Sleeper, I think you are doing the right thing, too.

I TOLD you she would notice that you un-friended her!
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/11/09 01:32 AM
I'm doing better today, not sure why.

I was in the dentist's chair and X texted me while "OUR SONG" WAS PLAYING ON THE BLASTED RADIO!!!!! That REALLY _____ed me off! She reminded me there were back to school meetings today and she wanted to know if I planned to attend as she has the kids this week. I couldn't due to dentist/moving my mother home from rehab.

Lots of small talk about the kids. At one point she TM'ed me I "owe her big time" because she was at the parent meeting and it was "so" boring. I "owe her" for attending a back to school function which concerns our kids? I struggled but resisted responding with something snippy about her being their mother and I owe her NOTHING for performing her maternal duties. I would have attended had it been possible. Instead I responded with something funny to which she responded, "lol".

She said she wants me and Ladyfriend to go with her, our kids and OM to the lake next time so we can see DS ski. I don't think so. What's up with that? She probably thinks she is being magnaminous by suggesting that. I just think it's weird.

Does anyone else have an X that wants them to be one big happy family with the OP or is that her way of pointing out I have a significant other too?

Looks like a job for........

BOUNDARYMAN
Posted By: fisherman Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/11/09 01:55 AM
Originally Posted By: sleeper

Looks like a job for........

BOUNDARYMAN


LMAO!!

I'm dying right now man!!!
Posted By: fisherman Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/11/09 02:31 AM
Originally Posted By: sleeper
Does anyone else have an X that wants them to be one big happy family with the OP or is that her way of pointing out I have a significant other too?


I can't say I have that, but I will say going from 4 months of little or no contact (mainly because of me) and now having contact almost everyday is a trip.

I don't know HOW you do it man.

I honestly think that despite this mlc mess, somewhere deep down she can't be without you.

Posted By: Kettricken Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/11/09 04:17 AM
I LOVE BOUNDARYMAN!!!

You need to let her sleep in the bed she made and *really* feel it or even if she does somehow come back to you she won't have learned a damn thing and you'll be right back where you are now eventually.
Posted By: Bworl Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/11/09 12:19 PM
Sleeper,

I too had an ex-spouse who seemed convinced that our being divorced should have no effect on our ability to be a family. I distinctly remember an email from her the day after our divorce becoming final where she said that she saw no reason why we could not still go on trips together with the boys AND that she knew we would never be like some of those divorced couples who were so hateful towards each other.


When I read those words, I was convinced that she was just completely nuts. How could she not see that divorce meant separation, and separation meant SEPARATE lives?


Now, my ex has not persisted with these grandiose notions in the years that have followed. She never got the point of actually suggesting activities together, though I'm quite sure that she would be one like your wife who could envision her and her new husband and my wife and I attending an event for the kids together (not happening, by the way). Eventually I think reality DOES sink in a bit.


I am a firm believer that an AMIABLE relationship between ex-spouses should be a doable thing when there are children involved. But amiable to me simply means that we aren't hateful towards each other, that we try to agree on mutually beneficial arrangments regarding the kids, etc. It absolutely does NOT mean that we are friends.


My ex-wife is NOT my friend. Friends do not do some of the things that the ex'es or STBex'es do in the stories you read here.


But that does not mean that we cannot be amiable. And I think you are more than capable of being amiable in your relationship with your ex, even while I know that there is still a big part of you that wishes for another chance. Your ex-wife however still seems to be stuck on the two of you being good friends. I don't know, maybe YOU can do that, but I have found that I absolutely could not.


"Laying down the law" does not have to be confrontational. While I can certainly see the possibility that your ex will not respond favorably to you suggesting that your lives become a bit more, well, separate, I do think you are going to have to try to take her to that place. You might remind her that you are not living in a state where polygamy is allowed, and therefore you cannot continue to play the role of spouse for her.


When the kids are in her care, they are in her care. Arrangements that need to be made because of sudden changes in her circumstances should first be made within her OWN well of resources, NOT by turning to you and asking you to pull from YOUR well of resources. Even if that is how it worked in the past, the dynamics are different now.


I would even go so far as to say that visitation with the kids by one spouse, when they are with the other spouse, is a bad idea. It seems kind and friendly, but you will eventually find it to be intrusive and bothersome. And her constant invoking of your lady friend in to your activities with the kids smacks of disingenuousness. I'm sure your ladyfriend, if she were honest, is not keen on spending regular time with your ex-wife. I know for example that I have no desire to spend any time with my ex-wife's new husband.


In short, an amiable co-parenting relationship where both parents private lives are respected is a good and desireable thing. Continuing to use you as a second husband of sorts is not.


Just my two cents worth.


Blessings,

Bill
Posted By: graceallday Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/11/09 02:40 PM
sleeper --

I know from what i have gathered from another site that is very pro reconcilation is during the period the spuse remarrys, it is very important you do not become an OP.....sharing like an EA. I think it makes sense because how would they ever see that their new spouse actually isnt feeling all their needs....see they reserved that thought for us the left behind....THEY DONT MEET MY NEEDS MANTRA.....THEN THEY KEEP YOU AROUND AND HAVE THE OTHER PERSON TOO.....with you not so available they just may see.....hey it isnt even what they thought...but u have to leave them to themselves to find this out...you cant fix it....and being too available probably has the opposite affect....I am sure you get that...you are just trying to implement it with boundryman.....WHICH IS A GREAT IDEA
Posted By: graceallday Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/11/09 02:43 PM
OH MY GOSH...I JUST TYPE MY THOUGHTS THEN REREAD AND GO WHAT IS HAPPENING TO MY BRAIN IN MY OLD AGE ...I DO KNOW THE WORD IS FILLING NOT FEELING....WHEN YOU ARE FILLING A NEED NOT FEELING A NEED..O GOODNESS LOSING IT.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/11/09 03:14 PM
As always Bill your post is spot-on and stated more eloquently than I thought possible.

Post separation X said: "Just because we're divorced doesn't mean we have to stop being family."

Upon barging into the bathroom while I was naked in the bath: "Maybe we'll be one of those divorced couples that doesn't mind seeing each other naked."

While discussing the first approach of what had been a yearly vacation tradition for us after separation: "Of course we're still going on vacation together, I can't imagine us not going together." (I chose not to go at the last minute because the spew became vitrolic, infuriating her which resulted in her filing for D immediately upon their return)

Yes, my X is "nuts" and she has very non-conventional views of many family/relationship interactions. I've always thought that was because she had such a fractured/abusive family life and childhood. She also has no one she can rely on but me (and now OMH?) in her life and is no doubt unwilling to give that up.

X once mentioned to me how much she wants me and OMH to "get along" with each other. I responded dryly, "I really can't see us ever being best buds."

I too have sensed that her overtures to and about Ladyfriend and "disingenuous."

The other day she made the comment that I am, "A black and white kind of guy." in comparison to her interpretation of the sitch between us now as opposed to an unspoken "grey" interpretation she holds. Translation: There are no rules or boundaries as far as I'm concerned it's all about what I want and what works/makes it easy for me.

I unloaded on X once after she abused my courtesy of picking the kids up (there was an afterschool activity DS was in that I sponsored so it made sense) by going out for drinks with OM because she had "Such a horrible day" instead of coming straight home from work to meet me at the time we agreed I would bring kids to her. She immediately called me after I dropped the kids off to say, "That is why we are divorced." (She has made that comment a couple of times since we separated in reference to me becoming angry over her behavior). I replied, "No X, the reason we are divorced is because it is all about you. You don't care about anyone but yourself, not me, not your children. You don't treat a friend the way you treated me tonight." She was dumbfounded and had no response.

Here's a new trick. DD called a little while ago to let me know she and DS were going to be at day camp today. She went on to mention I might "need" to pick them up this afternoon (wonder where that suggestion came from?). I told DD I couldn't because I have a meeting this afternoon and that OMH would probably be the one picking them up if X can't.
Posted By: Andabelle Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/11/09 03:15 PM
That's alright, Grace-- I once had to send a text to a Dr. Pope, but typed Dr. Poop instead. Didn't notice until it was too late.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/15/09 07:26 PM
I find myself struggling lately. This summer has taken its toll on me with mom breaking her hip, me moving to a new apt, X marrying OM and yesterday I was informed my aunt died.
Posted By: SoCo Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/15/09 07:36 PM
Sorry sleeper that it's rough right now. It does seem like things love to crash down all at once. This poor woman I work with had her son and husband both die in the same month of two totally different causes this summer. Sometimes life just heaps it on...
Posted By: forward Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/16/09 10:38 PM
Sleeper, I too hope you see some good things coming your way.....

Your W wants to be a big happy family so she doesn't have to have a sense of guilt about what happened.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/17/09 01:40 AM
Maybe, maybe not.

I'm through trying to figure out why she does what she does.

I now look forward to the day when I don't think of her at all.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/17/09 10:43 AM
I awoke angry at X this morning.

I'm angry at what she has done to the children and I'm angry at what she has done to me.

I know that anger is closer to love than indifference but I feel it's a move in the right direction.

I'm looking forward to indifference.
Posted By: Dawn of Hope Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/17/09 11:08 AM
Originally Posted By: sleeper
I awoke angry at X this morning.

I'm with ya...I've been angry at my H for 2 years now, although I know it's not a good or healthy thing, and I keep fighting it, so it's been gradually diminishing. Last night I dreamed that I saw my FIL's phone list, and it had (H's name) & (OW's name), like they were M...even though no papers have been filed in my case.

I think it is perfectly normal for you to be angry at her...although hopefully you won't stay that way too long, since, as we all know, it's not good for YOU.

Originally Posted By: sleeper
I'm looking forward to indifference.

ME TOO! ME TOO!

...Now where did I put that detachment??! crazy

Peace,
Dawn
Posted By: Grace_O Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/17/09 12:57 PM
Quote:
I know that anger is closer to love than indifference but I feel it's a move in the right direction.


When my intuition tells me somethng is right, I listen (mostly). Often it is counter to what most would do/believe. Still, I find listening has helped me.

HUGS
Posted By: Andabelle Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/17/09 10:46 PM
Maybe your "anger" is just appropriate righteous indignation. Your X is a selfish twit.

I am so sorry about your Aunt. I know it's not the same, but I lost yet another dog last Monday (makes 5 pets shuffled off since H left). I wonder when the hits will stop coming.



Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/18/09 03:39 AM
I've confirmed a pattern of behavior but not quite sure how to respond.

I recieved a flurry of contact beginning yesterday from X. It started yesterday with back to school questions, comments. I dropped off the kids back to school supplies at her house when no one was there. She complemented me on my purchases and how much the kids loved the items. X had the kids and I agreed to her request to keep them one extra night so she could take them to school their first day back.

Today she TMed me and asked If she could keep them tonight also saying she would pick them up after school today if I agreed. I responded with a short "no, I'll keep them" as I'm trying to establish a clearer boundary about such matters. She responded, "Ok, hope you had a good first day back at school. :)"

Later in the afternoon she called and asked if she could meet us for dinner as she wanted to vist with the kids about their first day back. I thought about it and decided to agree as I have never denied her access to our children (even though she GREATLY feared I would at one point after I was served D papers). It has become a bit of a cliche' as I have often asked her, "Have I ever denied you your children?" Her response is always, "No" as I never have. To do so would also be denying the children their mother of course.

So we met for dinner (the four of us) at a favorite Chinese resturant. Kids were great, conversation was great. It was very relaxed. We talked a little old times, mutual friends, politics, personal finances, showed each other pics on our cell phones, etc. She never mentioned Ladyfriend and I never mentioned OMH although one time DS did address me by using his name and I calmly corected him by saying, "I'm not _____, I'm your dad." She was going to pick up the tab as it was her idea but I suggested we split the bill and we did.

She called me later but I couldn't get the phone in time as I was driving and she immediately called DD's phone. I don't even remember why now.

Here's the pattern: OMH is out of town.

Some will no doubt say I should not have met with her and let her be alone without OMH or her children. I thought the same thing at first but decided to go "with my intuition" on this one.

"Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer"?
Posted By: Andabelle Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/18/09 03:16 PM
I don't know. She needs to live with the ramifications of the divorce/marriage to OM, but you guys also need to coparent peacefully. Your call.
Posted By: forward Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/19/09 12:36 AM
Could be fun to the Other Other Man. OOM
Posted By: Andabelle Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/19/09 07:07 PM
OBM (Other BETTER Man)!
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/24/09 03:28 AM
I TMed X this afternoon to ask about kidswap this evening. Later she called me just prior to the time I would normally take kids to her. She said she had just taken a very bad fall while waterskiing and injured her back, was considering going to the hospital.

She called a few minutes later and asked me to stay on the phone with her. OM's boat was broken down (it often does) and she was "freaking out". X has a touch of hypochondria and is prone to go into a tissy when injured or sick. The boat was being towed to the dock by another but and I could hear OMH in the back from time to time. He wasn't being a major jerk but I don't think he was being as understanding as I was. She wanted me to stay on the phone with her.

I told her I'd keep the kids tonight as it seemed the logical thing to do. She repeated several time that she missed them and wished she could see them. We finally hung up.

Later she called to let me know she wasn't hurt too badly and asked if I could bring the kids by to see her. I declined as it was late.

There were some other nuances to this of course.

I couldn't help but wonder how OMH felt as his bride called me because she was worried she might be injured and asked me questions. I offered and kept kept the kids tonight. I later declined bringing the kids to her so she could "see them" (there is a limit).

Finally she called to thank me for keeping the kids tonight and chit-chatted about her back {a strain} and the kids first week at school, etc.
Posted By: graceallday Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/24/09 05:22 AM
she is emotionally connected to u ..has never let that go and the triangle is in tact..good u r holding some boundries...i do think if marrying more than one was legal...shed be all for it...
Posted By: forward Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/26/09 01:39 AM
Sleeper,

When the chips are down, she does not turn to him. This will be an issue with them. It clearly already has been.

If you continue to be her friend, you will see more progress, I believe.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/26/09 02:05 AM
X called me yesterday afternoon and asked questions related to kids and school starting. I had taken them to school that AM as I kept them for her because of her fall and she would have to pick them up. She was driving at the time.

There was a piece of furniture at her house she offered to me and she said that afternoon would be a good time for me to pick it up. OM would be there and he could help me load it onto my truck. When I arived shortly thereafter I was surprised to find her answering the door and mentioned I didn't expect her to be there. She invited me in and called for OM. After he came out the two of them retreated in the house for a moment. I could hear them talking low down the hallway. Then the three of us went outside to load the piece.

After loading it on my truck I took off my sportcoat as I was still in my work clothes and it was warm. X apologized for "making" me sweat. OMH and I say very little to each other, only what is absolutely necessary.

X called again this afternoon. I told her I was thinking of her just before she called. "What were you thinking?" she asked. "How your back is doing and if you are ok." I answered. I lied as I was also thinking of the very sexy shoes she was wearing the day before when I went by her house for the furniture.

Something weird (or dysfunctional) is going on. X is very quick to call me if she misses my call and calls unnecessarily fairly often. I have noticed she calls when she isn't around OMH (example: when she is driving alone in her car). When OMH is around she hardly says squat to me, but chit-chats on and on when he isn't. A couple of weeks ago she gave a sheepish wave when she and OMH picked up the kids early. I knew something seemed different about the wave and now realize it was behind his back while he was facing me. I can't help but think he was not happy I was at "their" house yesterday and that's what the whispering was about in the hallway. I wonder if he knew she was on the phone with me after she hurt her back Sunday. I have since learned he left her ALONE in his boat and was in the boat that was towing his while she was on the phone with me. He berrated her for a being such a "baby". She later apologized to him for HER behavior.

X still has an emotional attachment to me and OMH knows it. They fought about this while dating before they were married. One time X was angry with me because they were fighting about me. He is insecure. He is arrogant. He must be the center of attention.

For the first time I wonder if there is some sort of emotional abuse taking place.

I told the kids that in our new apartment (into which I am still settling) we will eat at the dining room table as a family rather than in front of the TV. When this comment was met with surprise I asked if that is not where they eat at X's house. "No, we eat in our bedrooms," they replied. "X gives you your food and sends you to your rooms?" I asked. "Yes" they replied together without disagreement.

I cannot help but wonder if that is not because of OMH as I recall X's comment that he is, "just going to have to adjust to having kids around."
Posted By: graceallday Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/26/09 02:26 AM
oh weird to make dinner and send kids to their room with it...i mean unless its a one time thing...or here and there but doesnt sound like it....

sad that your xw goes along with this...sad
Posted By: Grace_O Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/26/09 01:05 PM
Sends the kids to their rooms to eat? Ick. I can't imagine dating let alone being married to a man that even suggested that.

Sounds like they are both insecure and for lack of a better word desperate.

Hug those babies tight.
Posted By: Andabelle Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/26/09 03:57 PM
Maybe you should let your X know that the kids told you they have to eat in their rooms at her house. Not come across as angry about it, just concerned. It's her choice if she wants to be in an emotionally abusive R, but she can't allow the abuse to extend to the children-- they have been through too already, especially your little girl.

What do you think is the attraction of creepy OM for your X? You mentioned before that she was abused as a child-- might that have something to do with it?
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/26/09 09:32 PM
OMH doesn't come across as "creepy". The attraction (and R) he and X have is kinda odd, maybe codependent. He was on the rebound from a D when they met, her mlc had just begun and she was in full replay mode. It's always been as if he had some spell over her. After they settled into a R they fought a great deal and were on and off several times. I was surprised they became engaged and also a bit surprised they didn't call it off before marrying.

It makes me sick for the kids. DD once remarked, "I hope X and OM don't get divorced like you and mom did. I don't want to go through this again."
Posted By: forward Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/27/09 01:28 AM
I am really sorry about the kids having dinner in their rooms. That is awful. I try to have meals at table, too.

You have an interesting perspective w/emotional abuse.

Clearly she is attached to you...but she is married.

I think that if you get involved with someone while they are still married, you have to kind of expect that they are not going to be "over" the M. So an interesting situation: OM/H is jealous of YOU.

They will self-destruct, but it could take a very long time.

So what have you done for Sleeper lately?
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/27/09 10:58 AM
Quote:
Clearly she is attached to you...but she is married.


Yeah, seems that way. DD called last night, then X called back just a few minutes after we hung up the phone. We chit-chatted for about 45 minutes. I was surprised how long we talked. I'm thinking OMH wasn't home.

Quote:
They will self-destruct, but it could take a very long time.


Ain't that the truth. I'm thinking 3-5 years.

Quote:
So what have you done for sleeper lately?


I bought a new (used) vehicle late last spring and moved to a new apt this summer.

My short term goal is to get my antidepressant perscription filled.
Posted By: dl443322 Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/27/09 02:38 PM
Hey Sleeper, first of all, get the prescription filled today. That's an easy one.

I dont think buying a car and moving to a new apartment qualify for things you are doing for you. I guess technically they do. But what do you do for fun? What do you do just for you?
Posted By: Andabelle Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/28/09 03:08 PM
When their A started she must have told OM lots of horrible stuff about you, but now that he knows you somewhat, and can see that you're not a monster but a really nice guy, your friendly interractions with X must be incredibly threatening to him. You don't want to be too available to X (industrial-strength cake-eater that she is), but I would still help her out occasionally just to make OM squirm (but that's just evil me).

Now to beat Foward's drum: what fun plans do you have for yourself this weekend?
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/30/09 12:25 AM
Catching a show this weekend, bought sushi for dinner tonight, and realizing I generally DO have the power to mess with OMH's head.

I'll have to explain that last one when I have more time as I made an interesting observation at back to school night the other evening.

"This is not the woman you are looking for." Obi Wan using the Jedi mind control voice
Posted By: Andabelle Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/30/09 05:49 PM
Eggggcellent [steepling fingers and chuckling evilly]. Can't wait to hear it.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/30/09 06:23 PM
X TMed me middle of last week because it was back to school night and she had the kids. She wanted me to pick them up and meet her at work. I agreed because this concerned our children and I saw it as coparenting, not cake eating.

She and I had talked on the phone for a lengthy time a day or two earlier. When I picked up kids one of my suspicisions was confirmed as DS said OMH was "out of town". I posted earlier she has much more contact with me when he is not around. I must really be a threat to him or he is very insecure, or whatever.

After that TM she became angry because she tried to send me pics of the kids on facebook and noticed I had removed her as a friend. She TMed that was "Sh*tty" of me and she would pick up the kids and no longer needed my help. This totally caught me off guard as I did that about a month ago and thought she knew.

I struggled for a bit and decided to just TM her the truth (what the h*ll do I have to lose?);

"I didn't mean to upset you. I removed you as a friend from my facebook to prevent myself from looking at the love of my life's wedding pictures."

I continued with;

"While I'm confessing, when you called the other day and I said I was just thinking about you, I wasn't only thinking about how your injured back was feeling but also about those sexy shoes you were wearing when I came by the house Monday."

To make a long story short she didn't respond directly to my confessions but allowed me to pick up the kids and bring them. When I met her she said, "Now I feel a little self conscious because I'm wearing the same shoes I was Monday" (DRAWING MY ATTENTION TO THEM) I calmly responded, "It's OK for you to wear them, they're not red."

The four of us went to the program together. Later X and I were in DD's room sitting across from each other at a student sized table, passing notes and makind comments/faces to each other about the presentation when OMH came in and sat down at the back of the room (He must have come straight there when he arrived back in town). X acknowledged his presence and so did I. At one point I looked back to see him leaning back in his chair so he could look around someone and see me. He didn't have a very happy look on his face and quickly moved his head so our brief eye contact was broken.

"Oh and one more thing..." Peter Faulk as Columbo

I noticed flowers in X's office when I took kids to meet her. They were from OMH with a card that said, "Just because".

Because what?

He ignored her when she was hurt?
He rode in another boat leaving her alone in his?
Or because he's a jerk in general?

I'm thinking of sending her flowers annomously.

Any suggestions for the card?

"Guess who"?
Posted By: Kettricken Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/30/09 07:50 PM
If I was your current lady-friend and was aware of this conversation/dynamic, I'd dump you so fast your head would be spinning.

"Love of your life" or not, your x is now a MARRIED WOMAN. I guess marriage vows (however stupidly entered into or from what bad beginning) only matter if they're yours. So carry on with your flirtatious games. Never mind that they're probably the same ones she played with OM when you two were still married.....
Posted By: forward Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/30/09 09:52 PM
Sleeper, Don't mess w/OMH's head, tempting as it is.

It will just give them reason to bond further as you become the crazy X who won't leave them alone.

Ironically, you are much more threatening if you don't try, and you are even more interesting if you are less available. You need her to have time to digest and mull over the interactions you have had. And yes, you need boundaries.

Sleeper, I think you know you need more plans than filling an antidepressant prescription. Your assignment is to come up with some new interests in the next few weeks, K?
Posted By: graceallday Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/30/09 10:01 PM
that is a curious question.....till death do u part.....let no man "put us under" come between us? ..how many times do u say that and which one matters??? the last time or the first time?

While I agree if I was sleeper I would bow way out...and not let his wife play this game....but as far as she is a married woman..... idk...not that i dont have respect for marriage its actually the opposite....i have a huge amount ...its just after the first till death do u part.....( unless there is huge huge huge circumstances -- not we had a solid marriage and u got weak and tempted to look for greener grass)...what does that second marriage mean...to me thats the marriage that means about as much as the paper its written on....till something else happens and someone wants out again.....
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/30/09 11:28 PM
Kettricken I knew I would recieve and probably deserve many 2x4's for what I have done/posted. I make no excuses. I feel like i'm at a crossroads of sorts, don't know exactly why.

I know what you mean about ladyfriend. I've never professed love for her and she hasn't for me yet it's obvious we care deeply for one another and therefore have the power to hurt one another. I realize this. I sat in church with her this AM (another long story for another post) and experienced some unexpected feelings/thoughts (fortunate I have another therapy session soon).

"Love of my life" a married woman? Vows?

X is messed up (I think we refer to it as mlc). I give her the benefit of the doubt. OMH is a selfish jerk. I spoke to him man to man when this began. My mistake. He's not a "man".

I have made mistakes/poor choices in all this and am now pondering how to correct them and what course to take.

More and more I am seeing the value of what we commonly refer to as "the truth".

And if that is the only thing I have left when all this is over I will consider myself to be fortunate and a better person for having experienced this.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/30/09 11:30 PM
Yeah, I hear you.

You should have seen him this evening at kidswap when I called X back to my car saying I had something for her. He stood in the yard with his hands on his hips and watched.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/30/09 11:36 PM
That is: "Let no man (one) put assunder (apart)".....

Let's not discuss the biblical foundation (or lack thereof) for these mlc marriages. I experienced enough deep thoughts in church this AM.
Posted By: forward Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/31/09 12:48 AM
Sleeper, You are becoming the OOM. What a strange experience this must be.

You must resist all temptation to get involved in their marriage. He has every reason to be nervous. You don't need to do anything to become a sore point between them. If you mess with them, you will only send W back to OM and remind her of why she D'd you. You are a thousand times more intriguing when you do nothing.

It is going to take a long time for your X to disentangle her head from this mess, if she ever does. You need to get yourself together and be the best Sleeper that you can be now.

I am only three months behind you in terms of the whole situation, and I wonder if I will be facing the same situation as you at some point.
Posted By: frank_D Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/31/09 03:10 PM
Originally Posted By: graceallday
that is a curious question.....till death do u part.....let no man "put us under" come between us? ..how many times do u say that and which one matters??? the last time or the first time?


Sleeper, wasn't your XW married before she met you?

By the way, I do agree that you should not be 'messing' with OMH. What possible good can come of it? Plus you continue to let XW 'cake eat'. It's time to move on from that so she can live the life she has chosen.
Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/31/09 05:08 PM
Perfect symmetry when history repeats itself.

As the OM was to your marriage, so too are you to his. Common denominator: Your X-wife, his current wife.

(Almost) everyone here would have a hard time not wanting the OM/OW to suffer the same sorrow clenched sour throat, roiling stomach, dried out tear ducts and mewling sounds coming from the mouth of the bewildered LBS…especially if the former LBS could be the author and instrument of such pain.

You’re better than that. I take pleasure in knowing that my former OM’s life is pathetic. I am not that big not too. I’m smart enough to know I couldn’t be a part of that, but wise enough to know that particular POS would devolve down his path without any help from me or mine.

You’re X wife, is broken, a woman who thinks her self worth come from the attention of people who should know better than to give her attention. Perhaps a thrill of being important enough that others ignore social norms and standards.

Do what you will Sleeper.

But until she fixes herself, she will be the reason for her repeating pattern.

You take her back broken…and so will you.
Posted By: graceallday Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 08/31/09 11:33 PM
hey sleeper i know on the vows the correct version isnt let no man ( one ) put us under but rather assunder i just like to be dramatic sometimes.... and marriage vows get me going a little....

and yeah i am not a die hard no possible reason for divorce i know its not good and its true I have really strong beleifs against it..but I dont think there is never a case that it shouldnt be considered.......its just the MLC divorce is so pointless....and all i see is destruction and regret in most cases...so sad...

anyway hang in there keep up posted.....

what happened to u in church????
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/01/09 03:10 AM
I have tried mightly, albeit some may say failed, to move on and "get a life".

I have not attended church regularly for some time although once I was very active in church and a member of the music ministry. X told me a couple of days ago she mentioned to someone I was a professional musician at one time. I never thought of myself as one as that was not my primary source of income but I was paid when I performed outside of church.

Church has been/is a painful place for me because of what happened to my DD and the response or lack thereof by those in the church we attended as a family and in which I served. (Long story) We stopped attending church regularly after that and when we did attend it was for the kids. There was one particular church we attended fairly regularly toward the end but we never joined. I haven't touched my instrument since I put it down almost six years ago. I still own three which have remained in their cases to this day.

So Sunday I'm sitting in church with Ladyfriend at her invitation and behest. The sermon, by coincidence, was on the effects of divorce and single parenthood upon children. Can you dig it? That, ironically, is not what had such a great affect on me. As I sat there with ladyfriend I could not help but feel that is not where I am supposed to be. It was all wrong. This feeling had nothing to do with the sermon. It was surreal and very uncomfortable as I watched the orchestra play and listened to the music. I sang along with the congregation at one point even though I didn't see myself doing that when I agreed to go and thought I would be silent.

I experienced an overwhelming feeling that I should have been sitting beside the mother of my children, my wife, not Ladyfriend. This was such a strong emotion I am thinking of breaking it off with Ladyfriend. It's just not right, it's not where I'm supposed to be. It's not where my heart is.

So if I am to be true to myself I will be alone.

Funny thing happened tonight........

I let X have DD for a while to do girl stuff with DD while did guy stuff with DS. When I met X to get DD back as it is my week the topic of church came up in conversation. She said she would keep kids this Sat night and they could go to church with her if I wanted. She asked if I was going to church and I told her where I attended this past weekend. She also visited there at one time. She then asked why I stopped attending the church we attended sporatically as a family just before we split. I answered, "It just wasn't the same without you and the kids there."

She nodded.
Posted By: graceallday Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/01/09 03:09 PM
thanks for sharing that....yes interesting.....

i guess i didnt really understand the impact of what occurred with your DD....I think that may have been more significant for both of u than i relaized.....than maybe even u have realized maybe, maybe not

interesting about the church experience.....follow how you think God is leading.....or you could follow your will....which i think is what your wife did...her will....

this whole thing is a journey
Posted By: forward Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/02/09 01:59 AM
Sleeper,
You are still so very intertwined w/her.

Have you discussed GAL w/C?

You deserve to be happy, and if X is married, you need to consider how you can be happiest without her.
Posted By: peacetoday Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/02/09 01:00 PM
Sleeper
I read your last post
If ladyfriend is not right certainly follow your heart
but give it a few days ..not good to act on fleeting emotions
and being alone is fine too
if that is what youn feel is best
as for our souses
I think we all feel we SHOULD be together at church oe events school stuff like other families
BUT
for many of us this will Never be an option again
It isnt your fauly and Jack said it all
Our WAS will repaeat the behavior until some awakening, self insight happens
For my XH I see him going down the road blindly
following urges or childhood scripts with no inner reflection
further down to destruction
Im not sure its the wisest choice to wait for him at this point
You will have to decide for yourself
can you and xw share a connection
while you really move forward?
can you share a conection and stand still waiting hoping believing
the choice is really only yours and if it isnt time to let go then you wont
peace
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/03/09 01:23 AM
Quote:
i guess i didnt really understand the impact of what occurred with your DD....I think that may have been more significant for both of u than i relaized.....than maybe even u have realized maybe, maybe not


I think you're on to something, Grace.

Things were never the same between us after that happened to DD. Makes sense now, how could they be? X was sexually abused as a child and even once told me she wasn't sure if her father raped her or not when she was a child. I believe he did, I also believe she knows and couldn't verbalize it to me.

One of two counselors we saw together after DD was raped asked me in private session did I realize I was the EXACT AGE at that time that X's father was when he abused X.

Looking back we didn't stand a chance.

Nine months post-bomb, eight months post-separation and several months into X and OM's relationship, X asked me in a very emotional manner, "What happened to us Sleeper?" "__________ (pedophile rapist) happened to us, X" I responded.

For some reason this week I have read, heard and seen the message, "Don't give up", Never quit", "Never give in" several times. Once in a movie, once on a poster, and I forgot where I recieved it the third time.

I won't repeat how I felt in church.

Nevertheless I'm feeling today like it's a lost cause and I'm nothing short of a fool for hoping otherwise.
Posted By: fisherman Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/03/09 02:26 AM
Originally Posted By: sleeper
Looking back we didn't stand a chance.


The longer this goes on, the more our eyes are opened. We begin to realize how everything fits and most importantly how we had absolutely no control over this. It began way before we entered the picture.


Quote:
Nevertheless I'm feeling today like it's a lost cause and I'm nothing short of a fool for hoping otherwise.


You're the furthest thing from a fool.
Posted By: Kettricken Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/03/09 05:43 PM
I imagine it's crystal clear to her on some level that you are still, as a previous poster said, "intertwined" with her, above and beyond your role as co-parent. That being so, she will probably continue to use you as a whipping boy as it suits her and as a secondary flirtation device when *that* suits her. Is that healthy for either of you?

If it's really meant to be, it will be whether you detach and move on or not. If she *truly* can sense that you've *really* moved on, in the sense of doing you and letting her do her and you can manage to *stick with it* for awhile ... who knows.

Right now, there's zero incentive for a major shift on her part. She hasn't "lost you", and as long as you continue of your current mind, she won't, and she knows it. Why, then, admit that she made a massive trauma-driven mistake with OM and reverse herself so publicly? You have not provided enough counterweight in the form of authentic detachment to move her in that direction. IMHO.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/03/09 07:35 PM
Quote:
You're the furthest thing from a fool.


Are you suggesting there IS hope, or just stating in your opinion I'm not a "fool"?
Posted By: fisherman Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/03/09 07:55 PM
I feel as long as there is love, there is hope. You seem to have a lot of patience, understanding, and compassion for your ex.

You are also intellegent and insightful when it comes to her issues and life in general for that matter. You have a pretty good understanding as to why this happened.

Your life can not and should not stop though. You have to keep on moving and just be open to whatever comes your way.

It's all up to mlc'er when it comes to facing their issues. We are powerless in this respect.



Posted By: fisherman Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/03/09 08:12 PM
So....No, you're not anything close to a fool.

Hope?

You and only you can make that choice. The easiest way to go about it would be to be totally open to ANYTHING, even if it's not exactly how you have planned it. Live your life for you and your children right now and TRULY be open to anything. All things will still remain possible right?
Posted By: fisherman Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/03/09 08:24 PM
Originally Posted By: trapt
It's all up to mlc'er when it comes to facing their issues. We are powerless in this respect.


What's happening here? I am quoting myself. crazy

This isn't quite right, we do infact have the power to slow this process down by not letting go completely.
Posted By: forward Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/03/09 11:06 PM
Sleeper, I have seen compassion for your X, too.

But you need to form a new and healthier relationship with her now. She should not be able to dump on you when it is convenient for her. Maybe it would be best to work on forming that new and healthier R. Perhaps more dim would be good for you. I was quite dark and it helped me become more detached.

And you need to make the best life for yourself without her. That will make it more appealing to come back.

Again, if you are too clingy, you will be in a situation where you look needy at best and pathetic at worst.

As far as what to do...well, maybe the answer for now is nothing. You don't have to make any decisions at the moment, so don't.
Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/03/09 11:55 PM
Quote:

This isn't quite right, we do infact have the power to slow this process down by not letting go completely.


The power to impede!

Nice trapt. Very good.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/04/09 02:23 AM
I don't know if we even have the power to impede.

They're kinda like a cat that's been hit by a car. They can't be caught nor helped but you can sure make them more upset if you don't leave them be.
Posted By: graceallday Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/04/09 03:38 AM
Sleeper --
Here are some things to ponder

Remember we have to take care of ourselves mentally and physically, and spiritually:


when David was running from Saul, even though he trusted God completely, I wonder if he ever thought nothing is going to change. Well, it did and he became King. When Joseph was sold into slavery, I wonder if he ever thought nothing is going to change - but it did - it got better for a season, then got really bad. So, when he was in prison, I wonder if he again thought nothing is going to change - he had even been forgotten by the one who promised to tell Pharoah about him. Well, it did and he became second only to Pharoah. Naomi was so sure things nothing was going to change that she changed her name to Marah, which meant bitter, but something did happen and joy again filled her life. Gods Word speaks to us so many times about situations that seemed impossible, in some instances years of trials were involved, but though faith and obedience to God what appeared to be impossible became possible and things did happen.

God is always in control and when we get out of the way and let Him do His will for our lives, amazing blessing await us.
Posted By: graceallday Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/04/09 03:42 AM

do u ever just wonder.....is this our trial...if it is wouldnt u hate to miss it to go on your way to BE HAPPY.....i dont think seeking God's will you can ever go wrong and its never wasted time.....

I think keep going to church....let God show you the way to go

We also had a tragedy with a child.....statics arent good....but our Gods a big God...and God will also purpose in your heart his will....so I just think discernment is the big thing here....
Posted By: mountain_west Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/04/09 04:09 AM
I will offer up this ...

I know that many of us, myself included, think of our current situations as THEIR issue. I keep praying that God will act in THEIR life to do ... whatever. I'm not saying that this MLC isn't THIER issue, but maybe the work that God is doing is for us as well. Maybe we need to be open to the possibilty that in addition to our spouses, God is trying to get us to change, or address something within us that needs to be surrendered, or altered.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/07/09 03:40 PM
I had a dream this AM.

I had awakened and was feeling generally discontented. I even prayed, maybe I should say complained, a bit. I then fell back asleep and had a brief dream.

In the dream X had come to my place to pick up the kids (she gets them back for the week today). My son walked up to me and said, "Dad, mom wants some too." He held out a medium sized plate that was empty. I recognized the pattern, a set we used before we split that I took and have since discarded. There were three lines on the plate; orange, brown and green (I think).

Upon waking I immediately know what she "wants". She wants a family. She has never had one her entire life exept for the time we were married. The kids and I still have a rich family life when we are together and we can just "be" a family. X comments often how she misses the kids when I have them. I know this on a conscious level and also the sub-conscious as I can still read X's feelings, especially where our children are involved. I looked up "empty plate" in dream symbology and it can represent emotional emptyness, doh!

The three lines on the plate were a little more difficult to interpret but I finally got it. Two were parallel (green and brown) and one (orange) intersected the other two at a low angle. It obvious which represented X, me, and the OMH respectively. I believe it's also an indication that her emotional hunger is not just related to the children.

But what about Sleeper?

I've had a great Labor Day weekend with my kids. We cooked out, boated, fished (caught some) saw an otter and picked berries.

My short term goal is to get a better handle on my finances and stop letting them handle me. I am seriously considering filing bankruptcy as I have come out of the D much worse than I anticipated with quite a bit of debt at crushing interest rates. I'm not considering this lightly as I have been trying to work through this financial situation for 7 months.

Freedom really is "just another word for nothing left to lose."
Posted By: forward Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/10/09 01:59 AM
Sleeper, if possible do some nice things for yourself. Little things, even.

I am sorry about the financial situation; it must be very stressful.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/11/09 11:34 AM
I went to therapy the other day. The therapist knows our history all to well as he has known x for about 15 years and works with myself and X separately. (I didn't realize she had resumed therapy with him. He said there is a song that describes us too perfectly:

"Send in the Clowns"

Isn't it rich?
Aren't we a pair?
Me here at last on the ground,
You in mid-air..
Where are the clowns?
Posted By: Andabelle Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/11/09 06:48 PM
Hey, you're not a clown!
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/11/09 07:22 PM
I'm not a clown, but he's right, this song is us.

Isn't it rich?
Aren't we a pair?
Me here at last on the ground,
You in the mid-air...
Where are the clowns?

Isn't it bliss?
Don't you approve?
One who keeps tearing around,
One who can't move...
Where are the clowns?
There ought to be clowns.

Just when I'd stopped opening doors
Finally knowing the one I wanted was yours.
Making my entrance again with my usual flair
Sure of my lines...
No one is there.

Don't you love farce?
My fault I fear.
I thought you'd want what I want...
Sorry, my dear!
But where are the clowns
Send in the clowns
Don't bother, they're here.

Isn't it rich?
Isn't it queer?
Losing my timing this late in my career.
But where are the clowns?
There ought to be clowns...
Well, maybe next year.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/11/09 07:31 PM
Therapist told me that according to X there was a time about 5 months into our separation that she was open to reconcilliation. Problem was she never told me. I remember there was intermitent spew during this time. I was hurt as I had just had OM rubbed into my face for a few months. I'm human.

I refused to go on vacation with her and kids exactly 5 months after we separated. This infuriated her as I told he I would go and backed out just a couple of days before we were to leave. She filed for D immediately up their return.
Posted By: Kettricken Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/11/09 09:41 PM
Are you each, independently, in individual therapy with this same person?
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/11/09 11:12 PM
Yeah. As crazy as our sitch has been how could it be any other way? We both resumed therapy with him in the Spring. Had one joint session (kinda like conflict resolution) and both of us have independently decided to continue individually.

Her timing intrigues me. Why begin therapy just after she accepts his proposal and prepares for marriage with OM.

OM doesn't attend counseling with her as C has mentioned she has not introduced OM to him to this day even though they have known each other for many years, consider each other friends and X invited C and his wife to the wedding (C and his wife did not go). C finds that very odd.

From a layman's point of view if a C with his expierence finds something odd it must be odd indeed.
Posted By: Kettricken Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/11/09 11:55 PM
Originally Posted By: sleeper
Therapist told me that according to X there was a time about 5 months into our separation that she was open to reconcilliation. Problem was she never told me.


Professional-ethics-speaking, just wow.
Posted By: forward Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/12/09 01:01 AM
Yeah, that seems a breach of confidence there....
Posted By: frank_D Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/12/09 01:35 AM
Originally Posted By: forward
Yeah, that seems a breach of confidence there....


Agreed. Our IC had permission to tell STBXW anything she deemed relevant, and STBXW told her it was ok to tell me the same.

Be careful Sleeper.
Posted By: frank_D Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/12/09 01:40 AM
Originally Posted By: sleeper
Therapist told me that according to X there was a time about 5 months into our separation that she was open to reconcilliation. Problem was she never told me. I remember there was intermitent spew during this time.


The real problem here is that you are trying to use logic to solve an emotional / spiritual situation.

Stop. Just Stop.

You need to let her go. You need to stop the analyzing. You already know the answers. They have been presented to you over and over again.

You know this.

Really, you do.

I'll say it in case you aren't remembering....

Stop the cycle. Let her go. Don't answer the phone. Reply to voice mails with text if they warrant it. I.E. if the message is a 'just want you to know...' don't reply.

If it's about the kids, reply with text.

Lose the fear and be confident. This isn't over. However, you need to stop playing the game.

I believe in you.
Posted By: graceallday Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/12/09 03:38 AM
maybe because it sound like you therapist is more than just a therapist ...ie friend too...but I think i recall my C telling me it wasnt the greatest idea for us both to be in IC with the exact same C...I did go into C with his partner...she was a woman and my xh stayed with the male C, we did sign a paper that the C could share info....but we were dealing with some extreme things due to our older son...but anyway....I do remember when my h filed for D my xh C called me or I called him dont recall and now thinking about some of the things he told me....they probably were crossing the line...but I think that may be the thing...C are human...and I think at the end of the day..they try and just give you the tools to assist u...but they are ususally ethical people and have made some jusdgements about each persons heart..and I just imagine...their heart breaks a little too hearing the story u know.....and then they share some insights.....i think its human and bound to happen when they are involved in both sides......
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/13/09 03:46 AM
Now that it's been brought to my attention I think C did ask me not to repeat what he said. I was in shock about the whole thing, trying to assimilate the info and forgot.

Had a dream the other night. X was sitting looking at her wedding ring and crying. I was sitting near her looking at a picture of our D and crying. Made perfect sense to me.

Thanks Frank.
Posted By: frank_D Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/13/09 05:32 AM
Someone told me today that if you pray for something, and then obsess over it, then you don't have faith that your prayer will be answered.

A counselor told me that I have to 100% 'give' my stbx what she asked for - Divorce and all the things that come with it.

Stop answering the phone, let it go to voice mail. If she leaves a message that is a statement, like 'Don't forget to take D14 to counseling at 7' don't reply. You got the message.

If she leaves a message that requires a reply, send a text message.

If you have to talk on the phone, stay on topic. If the topic drifts, get back on topic.

In my case, and I think in yours, XW's do not want to break that connection with us because, in their heart, they know we were the best men for them and they fear not having that connection.

But, by allowing them to have it we are enabling them to put off the real consequences of their choices. We don't know what those are, only God does. But we aren't supposed to be part of that journey. In fact, our presence makes the journey take longer for them - and for us.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/14/09 02:21 AM
Once again I hear you, Frank and I agree with you.

I think they also desire to keep a lifeline of sorts so if things don't work out in their new life they might return to us. I guess that's what people are refering to when they say "drop the rope."

C tells me in his opinion X's M to OMH won't last. He also tells me to move on with my life. Moving on is a win/win choice for us.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/15/09 11:33 AM
I just love being divorced with children.

A couple of extended phone convos (trying to reduce contact) with X about kids last night resulted in another observation.

Basically DS has learned a new word, the kind you hope your child never uses. He told me he heard OM use it when just the two of them were in his car and a lady cut him off in traffic. DS even repeated the sentence. X called me to discuss an off-color website with a few choice words DS found while visiting
with Ladyfriend's kids. All totally normal stuff.

To make a long story short (impossible) OMH denies he ever usd the word in front of DS. I believe DS, X believes OMH, not that it really matters as I and X have used the word in front of the kids while arguing and the kids confirm that. I have made clear to DS that I believe him in the matter. He was in tgears about it last night.

What it does show (once again) is that OMH can do no wrong in X's eyes. What is even sicker is that OMH believes he can do no wrong. Of course he HAS done wrong as they broke up/got back together again several times during their courtship.

If he were a comic book character he'd be "The Teflon Turd".

I guess that makes me "The Magnet of Mayhem".
Posted By: graceallday Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/15/09 03:55 PM
sense of humor will get u through...keep it coming
Posted By: Andabelle Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/15/09 04:48 PM
So how does your boy feel about OMH now? It bothers me (I know it REALLY bothers you) that he is not very nice to your kids (and is a liar to boot).

Even though your X took Turd's side, she must see that DS is hurting. Do you think you could talk to her about it without it turning into a big fight? Your kids need a lot of reassuring, not exile to their bedrooms at dinner time. They can't always play second fiddle to OMH. Sometimes their needs will just have to come first. If approaching your X directly about it wouldn't work, maybe you could get it through to her via the IC back-channel.

I would watch the sitch over there very closely-- if it gets too unhealthy, you might have to pursue greater custody.

Why even care what X thinks about OMH? That's not important right now. Their drama is wearing you down.

I hope you are taking good care of yourself. You deserve a good life, and your kids need you.

Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/15/09 08:40 PM
Kids don't think OM is actually mean to them (neither do I). OMH is just a big kid himself and likes to have fun (the kids enjoy that part). When this happened and OMH denied it I could see him as the little kid he is saying, "I didn't do it". He's so full of himself he probably thinks someone as perfect as he is would not have said that in front of a child so it's not possible he did. Of course the kids would rather X and I were together and they were with both of us all the time.

Both kids have mentioned that OMH is harder on DS than he is on DD. From time to time he yells at DS when DS isn't doing what OMH believes he should be doing (homework, chores, etc.).

I've noticed when I have no contact with OMH I can get irritated by what he is and the things he has facilitated. However I was surprised that when I had contact with him a few weeks ago my opinion of him softened quite a bit. I guess that shows he has some kind of charm and makes it more understandable to me that X would see only his good points and none of the bad.

I don't really care what X thinks of him. If they are meant to be then they will be, if not then they won't be. For the longest I've not really given OMH a second thought (I may have been too successful in pursuing that goal). However there have been and sometimes still are times when it seems as though he can do no wrong and I can do no right. My goal for a long time was simply to be "the better man." I am.

One of the negative side effects of being a pleaser.

I deserve a good "Life"?

Is that magazine still in print?

Where might I get one?
Posted By: Grace_O Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/15/09 11:17 PM
Life isn't in print anymore, but I still see them from time to time at garage sales and in used book stores.

Dude, you are totally the better man. I've heard stories wink
Posted By: forward Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/16/09 12:49 AM
Sleeper, Hang in there for yourself. You are growing and changing now, yourself....
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/16/09 03:07 AM
We lifeguards manage to keep things to ourselves but those ____ pool boys talk too much.
Posted By: Grace_O Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/16/09 03:14 AM
Just remember, it's not gossiping....it's networking.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/17/09 02:19 AM
Or is it "networking"?

X called me on the phone this PM. She asked if I was OK with a girlfriend of hers "setting me up" with a third party for a date. She went on to say she told said girlfriend I was dating someone. I was in shock. I asked if it was the girlfriend herself who wanted a date with me and was this was her way of asking. She hessitatingly replied, "no".

She went on to mention her girlfriend could send me the info on facebook as X could not since I removed her from my "friends" list. I was surprised and couldn't help but ask if her feelings were still hurt by that and X replied, "yeah". I didn't mention my feelings were hurt when she picked out another man, screwed him in our bed (the one I bought and hauled home and assembled alone while she was pregnant with our son), divorced me and married him. I simply responded, "sorry".

This is the second time she has tried to fix me up on a date. The first time was while we were separated but still married, about 1.5 years ago. At that time it was X herself trying to fix me up AFTER I made a comment about one of her employees. This time I have no idea who this person is and X didn't even mention her name, let alone volunteer any info.

What is the deal? Other than this being a major boundary breech on her part what is goin on? My mind reaced through all the possibilities including the unmeasurably minute chance that the person X's friend may "fix me up" with is X herself (I wouldn't put it past her) and she was feeling me out to determine how serious I am with Ladyfriend.

Ironically I saw OMH driving alone a few hours later. He was on his cell and having an unpleasant conversation with someone by the expression on his face and the antimated way he was tapping the steering wheel with his thumb.
Posted By: fisherman Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/17/09 10:51 AM
Tell her thanks but no thanks. You're doing just on your own in regards to that.

You'll never know what her motives are, but when it comes to mlc'ers most of the time they are self serving and not in our best intrest.

Distance my friend....distance.
Posted By: Grace_O Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/17/09 12:53 PM
Ok.....

That's really odd IMO. Could be looking for intel, doesn't really matter.

I wouldn't touch that one with a really long pole though. Of course maybe I'm just cynical wink
Posted By: fisherman Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/17/09 12:57 PM
Originally Posted By: trapt
Tell her thanks but no thanks. You're doing just on your own in regards to that.


oops the word fine if added would have helped this make sense.

It's early. crazy
Posted By: Andabelle Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/17/09 07:38 PM
She keeps doing this... I would ask her politely to stay out of your personal business from now on. Major weird/icky.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/17/09 09:47 PM
Like I said, I was in shock. Possibilities:

She want to find out if Ladyfriend and I are serious.

And you know what, I've stopped right there. What other reason could there be? This "person" that is a friend of her friend doesn't have a name? I find that odd. If it was a real person she would have at least mentioned her name and some reason/reasons she thought we might like to go out, how she knows I exist. At least something we have in common or something about her...Nothing.

This really sounds like something her and her girlfriend cooked up to find out how serious I am with Ladyfriend.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/17/09 10:05 PM
By the way, my response was that I have a lot on my plate and am just to busy right now to consider going out with anyone.

Kurt, truthful, no information volunteered.
Posted By: Grace_O Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/17/09 10:11 PM
I like your response.

It does sound suspicious, but I have known D'd couples where one really tried to set the other one up. Either way, kinda creepy in my world.

You want to know something ask me. No such thing as a secret anyways.
Posted By: forward Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/18/09 01:17 AM
Sleeper, It is also possible that she cares about you and feels sorry for you. Guilt.
Posted By: forward Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/18/09 01:17 AM
And you should tell her to please not do this any more.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/18/09 01:51 AM
forward,

Your speculation was the situation 1.5 years ago as we were still legally married, I had dated no one and she was fully involved with OM. To fix me up with someone would have relieved her guilt. I didn't bite.

Now it's different. We are no longer married (legally D'ed for 16 months) and she knows I have been dating Ladyfriend.

Ladyfriend has kids and X doesn't like that as X grew up in blended families. She even confronted me and angrily commented that me becomming involved with someone like Ladyfriend was "exactly" what she did not want to happen. She went on at that time to threaten seeking full custody of our children (she has tried with some success to control every aspect of our divorce and the resulting situation). Another clue that this may be her motivation is that earlier this week X mentioned our kids and ladyfriend's kids might become step sisters and brothers one day.

Here's the other thing. X has control and boundary issues. Always has, probably always will. I believe this is in large part due to the abuse she suffered as a child. Her sibling has the same issues as her but much worse (she says her sibling was abused much more severely than she was). I once refered to her sibling as "______" (their name) and X as "_____-lite" (as in she has the exact same issues but just not quite as severe) when speaking to our C. He understood.

So now I think it's more about X attempting to control with whom I am involved.

And I told myself I wasn't going to waste any time trying to figure this out.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/18/09 02:01 AM

Quote:
You want to know something ask me.


So what happened with these "D'd couples" you knew?
Posted By: Grace_O Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/18/09 04:13 AM
I knew 2 couples who did this. One was a man that wanted to stop paying alimoney (back in the day). She didn't bite and probably collected until the day she died.

The other couple was different all the way around. They had a big "divorce party" and both proceeded to run amok for quite awhile. I think it was out of guilt that he kept trying to set her up with someone. I haven't heard from them in a very long time, but the last time I spoke with him (this was a good ten years after the divorce) he still felt bad about everything.

I was young(er) when I knew these people and the 1st couple he filed after Ca went to "no fault" divorces. I want to say that was very early 70's, but someimtes my brain leaks, so I'm not sure.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/19/09 05:27 AM
Speaking of boundaries....

I took DD to the doctor yesterday as there are many flu viruses making the rounds and she woke up ill. I called X but there was no answer so I texted her but recieved no immediate response.

After being admitted to an exam room and asked a few questions by the nurse I called X once again as she had taken DD to the doctor a few days earlier and there questions about medications that were administered at that time which I could not answer. X got a little freaked that we were at doctor's and even though I assured her DD was fine said she would be there as fast as she could. She called while on the way and told me not to let the doctor leave the room until she got there (yeah, right I thought).

X did indeed make it, appearing at the open door of the exam room before the doctor arrived. What surprised me was that OMH was following close behind. He came in the exam room also and sat down.

I really didn't have a chance to digest it at the time but the more I think about it the more I am irritated at OMH's presence during DD's doctor visit. It was all too surreal at the time but I may have gained some insight to X and OMH's relationship. He is like a little puppy that follows her around. She sees nothing wrong with his interjection into what were previously private family matters. More than ever I don't see their relationship as healthy. The only word I can think of is CODEPENDENT, "I hate the word as I hate hell, all Montagues and...(Tybalt, kinsman of Capulet, would understand).

This is how it has been since the beginning. His job affords him a great deal of free time and he spends it with her, even when she is at work (she owns her own business). He just sits in the room where she works (like a puppy). It is as if she is a queen and he is the only member of her entourage. I now know to what the counselor was refering when he validated my decision to not help her with something by saying, "You're not her b*tch." (apparently he is).

As sick and sad as all that sounds I am pissed. I feel violated. I feel that my D was violated by his presence in something as intimate as a doctor's exam. I am reminded of when my D was assaulted and I was refused admission to the room while she was examined by a doctor for the purpose of gathering evidence. I, not her mother was the person who had taken her to EVERY doctor's appointment since her birth and worried she would not understand why I wasn't there with her. The look on her face as we made eye contact confirmed she knew something was wrong as they carried her away to the exam room that day. I could have stopped them. I had the legal authority but didn't.

I am torn between fury at OMH for not removing himself the other day and pity for the pathetic piece of clingy sh*t he must be. There have been moments since this happened almost 48 hours ago I could easily do him great bodily harm. I really don't know what to think of X. She has lost herself as the woman I once knew would have never allowed this intrusion to happen and somehow become fused with OMH to the point that connection is now greater than her connection with her children. How else could her bringing OMH into the exam room with her now 10 yr old D be explained?

I have said nothing to either of them about this.

I don't really know what to do other than learn from it and ask OMH to wait in the waiting room if it ever happens again.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/19/09 05:47 PM
Kids had soccer today, X and OMH were there.

X has the music theme from the movie "American Beauty" as the ringtone on her cellphone.

I have lost my mind.
Posted By: Andabelle Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/19/09 06:33 PM
You're not the one whose brain has gone missing.

Don't let them make you crazy...
Posted By: Bworl Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/19/09 08:08 PM
Yes, next time you tell the SOB to leave the examination room while your daughter is being treated. It's a no brainer. If he were the only one around and it was an emergency situation, that's one thing. In this case he had absolutely no business being there.


I'm not sure why you continue to dwell on all the minutiae of your ex-wife's psychosis. If it is some strange hope inside of you that she will one day recover from this "sickness", divorce OM, and come running back to you, I can only say that I think you are far beyond deluded.


Who cares what music is on her cell phone? Why are you even making note of it, let alone pondering the implications of the type of music she chooses for a ringtone, or the movie that it comes from?


Acceptance is the first step to recapturing a life that might amount to something rewarding and fulfilling. You continue to choose to live HER life, hoping against hope that a reconciliation is still around the corner. As long as you do this, you continue to be stuck.


We aren't hearing things about your new life. You haven't moved to Surviving for example, where we might all begin to believe that you are finally working on truly surviving.


You are stuck Sleeper.


I appreciate that we all have to reach acceptance in our own time and our own way, and perhaps this is just where you still are. But understand at least that this is NOT what you want your life to continue being.


I'm looking forard to the day that you finally step out on your own.


Blessings,

Bill
Posted By: frank_D Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/20/09 02:50 AM
Originally Posted By: Bworl

Acceptance is the first step to recapturing a life that might amount to something rewarding and fulfilling. You continue to choose to live HER life, hoping against hope that a reconciliation is still around the corner. As long as you do this, you continue to be stuck.


Not only that but if she ever IS going to 'wake up' it's only going to be when she is jolted into the reality that Sleeper isn't living his life for HER.

Do what I am doing.

Don't take her calls. Ever. Unless you are expecting it and you know you need to have a conversation. Let her leave a message.

If the message is a question that isn't really important, send her a text message reply.

If the message is informational, there is no need to call back because you got the information.

If the message can't be easily resolved without a conversation, then call her but STAY ON TOPIC. Do not talk about personal things that do not have the kids as the topic.

You'll be amazed at how EMPOWERING this is. Think of her as the business associate you want to have minimal contact with. And you won't be trying to 'guess' what she's thinking because it doesn't matter.

And, what's really interesting, at least in my case, is that STBX is starting to come across as more uncomfortable / depressed when I do talk to her. She even left a message the other day and said "Well, I guess you can text me with your answer".

It's part of detaching. And moving on with your own life. It's not 'giving up'.

You have never let her feel what it's like to not have Sleeper at her beck and call.

It's funny that my STBX's OM is a 'puppy dog' also. No spine. No independent thoughts of his own.

You need to let go. Now.

And I agree with Bworl. If you are in a doctors office again, politely ask him to leave. He's not her father.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/20/09 06:46 AM
Bworl, frank-D,

I hear what you are saying and for the most part cannot disagree with your observations.

I know the state of my mind and soul. It is what it is. I am not sure I can will myself to feel otherwise no matter how hard I might try. Truth is I have tried and had no lasting success. My next thread may be titled; "Man of LaMancha". Why not?

I felt good today. There was a moment this AM when X started to give me grief because I didn't conform to her schedule concerning the kids last night. I didn't let her run over me like I did during spew when I would respond to her as if she was mentally ill (just listen but not respond).

I let her have the kids this afternoon because it fit into my schedule, not because I was trying to be the better person.

I stood my ground today as she repeatedly attempted to set me up on a date. She knew she was pushing it as she asked if she was making me angry. I laughed and told her, "no". Finally I did not answer the phone the last time she called. I laugh out loud a lot when we talk on the phone now.

I have reached a degree of detatchment as I tried to guess her motivation for such a bizzare idea as me going out with someone she suggested. Maybe she is experiencing a little guilt, maybe a little uneasy that Ladyfriend and I may be getting serious. She commented she didn't want me to "just settle" for the first person I dated after her to which I responded, "Isn't OMH the first person you've dated?" and, "Since you keep saying, "no", you and Ladyfriend must be serious", to which I gave no response as it's none of her business.

She also mentioned that she told suggested blind date lady that since we've split up I have gotten my act together and I'm very handsome. Whatever.

Someone tell me what the h*ll is wrong with going for what you want and know in your heart, no, your soul to be right? Tell me what is wrong with fighting (even if against all odds) for a family to be reunited? Tell me why you think a little girl who was raped at age 35 months and a son who was basically neglected from 1 to 3 years of age while his parents fought the judicial system, an indifferent district attorney and a family with political clout and financial resources to guarantee a pedophile (who later admitted to assaulting 13 children) would not go free do not deserve a healed nuclear family. This mlc stuff is NOTHING, and I repeat, NOTHING compared to what we have already been through.

That woman is my soulmate. She is majorly messed up and legally married to another man but she is my soulmate. She is the mother of my children and I the father of hers. They are the only children she or I will ever have in this life (we touched upon that subject today on the phone). She gave me a "high five" in front of her cardboard husband today because I noticed something relatively insignificant was broken at what is now her business and fixed it. She mentioned on the phone she has decided to pay several thousands in back taxes (yeah, our business bookkeeper robbed us blind while we were distracted with the trial of our D's rapist) but she didn't demand I pay her half, instead jokingly mentioned I "owe" her.

I've never been to hell (my daughter has) but I have looked into the into the eyes of a demon. I have stood before one and listened to his twisted sickness as he described his desire for little girls. The ONLY reason I didn't kill him where he sat is because I promised my X I wouldn't. That was my intention but I promised her I wouldn't on the way there. If I hadn't promised that to her there wouldn't have been a two-year trial, we wouldn't be where we are and I wouldn't be on this site. She has actually mentioned she wished she hadn't asked me to promise her that and I had killed him. She has also said she intends to kill him when he gets out of prison. She never mentioned that to me until AFTER her mlc began.

As I proof-read this I realize how shocking words like "kill" and "killed" must seem to some. Until you have (and I hope you never) experienced an assualt upon your own children you cannot understand.

I'm burned and I know it. You want to hear something funny? I have no desire to see or go to ANY movie with a horror theme. It's not a conscious decision, I'm just not interested. That is about as far as I can explain it.

I'm not posting this to say I'm right or anything. I want you guys and others to tell me what you think whenever you want. I give your opinions/observations great consideration.

You may be right about my approach and I may be all wrong.
Posted By: whitneypinch Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/20/09 01:07 PM
I have a 6 year old daughter and I can't imagine what you must have went through. I understand those words you use as well. I think I would feel like beating him within an inch of his life. I am sooooo sorry for the pain you and your family must feel.

I too no longer watch movies of negative or violent nature. I only want to see uplifting events.

Sending you thoughts of understanding !!!
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/20/09 05:04 PM

Quote:
...beating him within an inch of his life.


I did.
Posted By: frank_D Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/20/09 05:44 PM
All of your words in your post are valid. I too feel like my STBX is my 'Soulmate'. I believe God brought us together for a reason. Call it 'balance' if you like.

We just need to find our own souls purpose right now. If that happens then God may bring all of us back together.

The problem is that we can keep feeding the sickness. That's what you're doing. You keep feeding it instead of starving it. I did the same thing.

It is by truly disconnecting that you'll change the dynamic. You will. Honest.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to restore your family. What's wrong is that you think you have the power to do it. Only God can do that. You're getting in the way.

Stop the cycle. THAT you CAN do. When it stops the healing on both sides will begin.

Then the miracle will happen.
Posted By: Andabelle Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/20/09 07:48 PM
If you are unequivocally still standing, maybe you should rethink your R with LF.
Posted By: forward Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/20/09 11:21 PM
Sleeper,
Your situation is one of the most painful on this board and I do feel for you. However, I think I have to agree with others on this board that you must take care of yourself now, try to detach so that you can have some silence and peace to reflect on yourself.

You may feel your W is soulmate, but evidently she does not feel the same way. She might feel that way in the future, but you must give her more space, too.

Watch the movie "Scenes from a Marriage."
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/21/09 01:07 AM
Quote:
...maybe you should rethink your R with LF.


I am.

I had been separated for 23 months and divorced for for 7 when we first went out. Try as I might my heart is not with her. I do love her and she loves me just the same. There are many types of love. From time to time we have had R talks and I believe we need to have another one.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/21/09 01:17 AM
Quote:
...you must give her more space, too.


I've always wanted to visit, maybe live in Alaska. The closest I've come is Vancouver, British Columbia in Canada. Last spring I actually began to research communities in Alaska looking for one to which I might move. Then my mom fell and broke her hip and I feel plans such as that have been put on hold for a while.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/21/09 11:29 AM
Quote:
...unequivocally still standing,...


How do you balance "standing" against allowing the ultimate in cake eating? My first wife (it's not my first rodeo) became very upset when I began to date after we split up and actually said to me she thought she could put me "on a shelf" and I would still be there when and if she wanted me back. She was dating (of course) but in her mind I was supposed to sit and pine away for her ad infinitum.

X hasn't said such but became very upset when I began to date and as recently as this weekend one of her concerns sems to be that Ladtyfriend and I may be "serious" because we have been dating for a while. She verbalized that conclusion when I rejected her attempts to set up a blind date for me with the lady of her choosing. I think one goal of her overture was to determine if we are indeed serious, the other to control who I date and steer me toward someone who has no children of their own as she has said she doesn't want our kids in a "blended" family situation.

So how do you "stand" without sending the message that you are putting your ife on hold until and if they ever want to return to the marriage or begin a new R with you.

By doing so aren't you really living their life and not your own?
Posted By: fisherman Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/21/09 02:19 PM
Originally Posted By: sleeper
My first wife (it's not my first rodeo) became very upset when I began to date after we split up and actually said to me she thought she could put me "on a shelf" and I would still be there when and if she wanted me back.


That seems to be the way their warped minds work. This is on us however....So is it foward with life or sitting around collecting dust.

Quote:
she has said she doesn't want our kids in a "blended" family situation.


Don't take this the wrong way but.... tough shitt! She has no say in this whatsoever.

Quote:
So how do you "stand" without sending the message that you are putting your ife on hold until and if they ever want to return to the marriage or begin a new R with you.

By doing so aren't you really living their life and not your own?


You live your life for you and your children. You be the best man and father that you can possibly be. Live in the moment and stay open to whatever may come your way.

You stop putting any energy into the question of whether or not she will ever return. If it is meant to be it will happen and you will deal with it at the very moment.

Live for today, live for you and your children.

You hold that plate of cake my friend.
Posted By: frank_D Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/21/09 05:17 PM
Originally Posted By: sleeper

So how do you "stand" without sending the message that you are putting your life on hold until and if they ever want to return to the marriage or begin a new R with you.

By doing so aren't you really living their life and not your own?


Yes, you are living their life as their puppet.

In my opinion, 'standing' doesn't mean being their puppet. It means that I personally will not get into any other relationship until I am 100% sure I am not 'hoping against all hope'.

Second, you are confusing 'standing' for 'enabling'. You are both in this 'dance' that will only end when you end it. She isn't going to so you must be the one to do it. Think '180'.

I have a great counselor. She has always said to me that this relationship has to end before it can begin again. STBX has to live 100% without me before she can see what it means to not have me in her life. As do I.

I too have some hope for you and her, but only if it all ends first. I do know that nothing will happen until it all ends. Get off the leash you are on. Climb down from the shelf.

Read my signature.
Posted By: brandnewday Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/21/09 05:21 PM
Frank...

Are you still standing for your Marriage?

I thought you were done.
Posted By: fisherman Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/21/09 07:14 PM
Sleeper,

What I meant by you holding the cake was that you get to decide how much to give, and how available to be.

Do what is best for you. There is a way to move forward while still keeping an open mind.
Posted By: frank_D Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/21/09 07:51 PM
Originally Posted By: brandnewday
Frank...

Are you still standing for your Marriage?

I thought you were done.


I am standing back and allowing it to end, much like Sleeper has done. It's only be letting it all go that it has any possibility of starting over some day.

25yearsmlc told a story of her relatives who got divorced and after having other relationships and being nothing more than 'civil' were able to see they could be together once they had grown. This took 5 years.

Is that 'standing' or simply leaving the door open to possibilities while living your life?

BND, we don't really have a definition for 'standing'. My definition that works for me is simply this: I know in my heart I can't love someone else right now. I also know that I am enabling my STBX just as Sleeper is and in ANY situation that is not healthy.

You know that old saying, "If you love something set it free..."

I have set mine free. Whatever happens next will be because God chooses it.
Posted By: frank_D Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/21/09 07:51 PM
Originally Posted By: trapt
Sleeper,

What I meant by you holding the cake was that you get to decide how much to give, and how available to be.

Do what is best for you. There is a way to move forward while still keeping an open mind.


I like this
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/22/09 01:41 AM
Hey frank, I figured out what "standing" is......

"Im Still Standing" (Too Low For Zero, Elton John, 198?)

........
"Don't you know I'm still standing better than I ever did
Looking like a true survivor, feeling like a little kid
I'm still standing after all this time
Picking up the pieces of my life without you on my mind"
.....

Bernie Taupin

"PICKING UP THE PIECES OF MY LIFE WITHOUT YOU ON MY MIND" (What more could one say?)
Posted By: frank_D Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/22/09 02:03 AM
Originally Posted By: sleeper
Hey frank, I figured out what "standing" is......

"Im Still Standing" (Too Low For Zero, Elton John, 198?)

........
"Don't you know I'm still standing better than I ever did
Looking like a true survivor, feeling like a little kid
I'm still standing after all this time
Picking up the pieces of my life without you on my mind"
.....

Bernie Taupin

"PICKING UP THE PIECES OF MY LIFE WITHOUT YOU ON MY MIND" (What more could one say?)


WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY cool!
Posted By: frank_D Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/22/09 02:06 AM
Sleeper, I forgot what your job vocation is...
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/22/09 02:33 AM

Quote:
Sleeper, I forgot what your job vocation is...


Don't feel bad. So did I.

The earliest memory I have of knowing what I wanted to "be" was to be a "Renaisance man".

I often believe I've succeeded. I know very little about a lot and a lot about very little.

Student of history.
Collector of weapons.
Part-time musician (once upon a time).
Decent vocalist.
Have written poetry.

Born 100-200 years after my time.

(hate computers)
Posted By: frank_D Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/22/09 03:32 AM
Originally Posted By: sleeper

Quote:
Sleeper, I forgot what your job vocation is...


Don't feel bad. So did I.

The earliest memory I have of knowing what I wanted to "be" was to be a "Renaisance man".

I often believe I've succeeded. I know very little about a lot and a lot about very little.

Student of history.
Collector of weapons.
Part-time musician (once upon a time).
Decent vocalist.
Have written poetry.

Born 100-200 years after my time.

(hate computers)

That's not an answer.
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/22/09 10:59 AM

I didn't realize you were asking a serious question.

I'm a social studies (history) teacher at a public middle school.
Posted By: fisherman Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/22/09 02:02 PM
Originally Posted By: sleeper
"PICKING UP THE PIECES OF MY LIFE WITHOUT YOU ON MY MIND" (What more could one say?)


There you go!
Posted By: sleeper Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/24/09 01:55 AM
So back to the boundary thing.....

X called me last night and asked about the kid's sports uniforms (they left them at my place). I told her I would wash the uniforms and get them to her.

This AM on the way to work I dropped off the clean uniforms along with their equipment organized in a new sports bag I was providing at her place. I texted her the stuff was on OMH's car (hope it scratched it).

A couple of hours later she texted me "thank you!" (probably when he wasn't around to see her text me as that is her style).

So this afternoon she texted she would need help with getting them to practice tomorrow night (where's OMH?) and asked me to call her tonight to talk about it. I texted her to text me back the time of the practice and I would "see what I could do to help". She hasn't responded.

This is another one of those grey areas where she seems to cake eat as she doesn't help me when I have the kids (she's just "too busy") but expects me to help her when she does. I want to be with my kids whenever possible but I don't feel comfortable placing myself at her beck and call. If I did, it seems I provide her with "family" support (she commented to a mutual friend who told her she shouldn't expect me to do all the childcare, "just because we're divorced doesn't mean we should change the way we parent.") while she enjoys playboy playtime with OMH.

Any thoughts, suggestions?
Posted By: Grace_O Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/24/09 03:36 AM
sleeper,

I get what you're saying and while I don't have this specific problem (my D's live with me 24/7), I do think you are being used.

When omh married her, he was aware of the kids and taking on a new role right? If not, it is her role to fill and to find whatever support she needs to get the kids where they need to be.

I know you want to spend every minute with them, but at what cost to yourself? Do you feel good about your choice? If you do, I guess you have your answer. Since it's problematic for her, perhaps she should just give you full custody? Works for me.

HUGS
Posted By: fisherman Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/24/09 02:34 PM
Originally Posted By: sleeper
This is another one of those grey areas where she seems to cake eat as she doesn't help me when I have the kids (she's just "too busy") but expects me to help her when she does. I want to be with my kids whenever possible but I don't feel comfortable placing myself at her beck and call. If I did, it seems I provide her with "family" support (she commented to a mutual friend who told her she shouldn't expect me to do all the childcare, "just because we're divorced doesn't mean we should change the way we parent.") while she enjoys playboy playtime with OMH.

Any thoughts, suggestions?



You have summed this up perfectly. I too have struggled with this. You want to be there for your children, but at the same time you feel like you are being taken for granted, taken advantage of and almost like your allowing them to continue to have the "best of both worlds."

I don't know if there are any easy answers to this. I guess you have to consider the circumstances at the moment. How often it happens and most importantly what will take place with the children if you are not available to help at the time.

I usually try to be there for the kids when I can regardless.

One of two things will happen. They will wake up one day and realize they have missed out on many precious gifts that can never be replaced. Or they won't and they will continue to live in the land of the lost.

I wouldn't want to be in either of those positions. I feel sorry for them.
Posted By: forward Re: New Boundaries for the Bride - 09/25/09 12:35 AM
Sleeper,
I understand you want to be with your kids whenever you can. But it's important for them to see that you have a life, too.

I have to work on that myself.
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