My H said he wants a D, I'm devastated!

Divorcebusting.com

Hello.

My DBing and coaching sessions had, I thought, been working well. My H was responding to my being light, breezy, coming up with little things we could do together and me not talking 'R'. My H seemed more relaxed and since he dropped the bomb on May 16th that he wanted out things seemed to be improving. On Saturday a.m. ran a couple of errands and when I got back H said we needed to talk. He has never said this and at first I was hopeful but the look on his face quickly told me I was not going to like the conversation. H indicated we needed to stop being in denial and realize that H had every intention of leaving and had spoke with an attorney and would like us to fill out the paperwork and being our situation is not financially complicated no children, no house to deal with we could be officially divorced within 3 to 4 weeks. This would put it around our wedding anniversary August 6th. He also indicated he has signed up to rent a place in August and would like to move out at the end of July. We live in Minnesota he is moving to Montreal, Canada. We both live and work together and I've got family coming to stay here the first week of August and I am going to Denver to see family the second week in July.

I completely imploded with this news. I thought things were getting better; however, I knew that H not agreeing to any type of counseling or working on our marriage that things would not improve simply on our own. I was distraught but put myself back together that evening for a family birthday on his side of the family. The next day after the party H's sister called him and told him that both she, her husband and their mother were very concerned about his health. He has lost a lot of weight and seems very down. He did not like this assessment.

Question, do I tell his sister what is happening? I really do not think this is my business; however, I too am concerned not only as his wife but friend that he is in a self destruct mode. Telling him this however would go over like a lead balloon. H honestly said that he could send a couple of UPS boxes from here to Canada and that would be all he would need. H wants to leave everything else with me and he said he simply doesn't care what happens to it. In effect, H wants to leave and leave me with everything, including staying at the job we work together and have to tell everyone what is going on - very confused and sorry to be so choppy.

I think my H is in MLC after reading the stages and his own behavior. It seems he is regressing. He indicates there is no OW and I have absolutely no reason to believe there is. H did tell me he loves me very much but has not passion or interest, that being married is too restrictive and that I am boring and just too good of a person. I am just to good for him and he feels I need someone who can better appreciate who I am and take better care of me. He also says he is so tormented he wishes he had the ability to end his life. When I inquire as to how he is so down, but yet wants to just pack up and leave and trade in everything for a completely new life, he states Hope Springs Eternal.

This morning he is going for a vasectomy consult, had not knows it was scheduled and he plans to squeeze in that procedure during everything else happening this month. I understand he is fragile and depressed but how much can one person take and still try to be light, breezy and DB at the same time.

Any advice is welcome on how to proceed, what boundaries should not crossed and how to keep not only my sanity but dignity at this stage.

Thanks for listening,

Michele
M 42
H 41
Married 1993
Together 22 years
Bomb dropped 5/16
Going on 1 yr. with him telling me he wants out

ok hun.....This is MLC probably for sure.....but put that aside for a moment.....becuase whatever you call it .....it is a long road..and hard....and I hate to break it to you....If I could place a bet on the fact about another person...I would say 99.9% chance there is one.......oh my gosh he has all the standard lines.......and he is going for a vasectomy consult.......BIG RED FLAG HELLLLOOOOOO but even if you take that out......everything he is saying SCREAMS ANOTHER PERSON.....it sounds like you are doing all the right things with DB....sometimes no matter what you do ....in MLC it wont matter becuase they have to walk the path...that takes them to the train wreck........you just have to decide what you want for you.....are you going to go through seeing if reconcilation will be possible...more than likely that will not occur until the other relationhip ends......2- 4 years....

I would probably confide in his family.....I would probably verify there is another person...if he is that good at hiding it that you really cant tell....than hire a pi...but if you look....chances are you can find something....cell phone history....assuming you have all his cell phones....usually they talk on the cell even if they try not too......

there is a site i think its marriagebuilders dot com and they go over the choices of blowing the affair wide open or not.....you read and decide......it sounds like he is really guilty about that and wants no one to know.....so if you can find out speak the truth in love....I would consider blowing it wide open once you get the facts.....

so sorry you are going through this...keep posting.....

Thanks Grace,

Your honesty is refreshing and you are right. By chance I was so ready to dial and speak with my sister-in-law as she is concerned also about his demeanor, weight loss, etc. I know she would eventually ask if I knew what was with him. She called me this afternoon and it just kind of poured out of me.

Of course, what I told her she was not expecting and I explained I had been keeping all this to myself because I felt it was not my business and had hoped the DB'ing would work and we could put this behind us.

As you so aptly stated, this is going to continue for sometime and I simply need to decide to stay in or go dark. Either way there are no guarantees. He is obviously hiding the OW so well, because everything points to this and will do some research within my grasp at the moment.

I am quite exhausted from taking this on alone and I really hate to say this I have no one in particular I can turn to right now so that isolates me even more and gives H space to spin his web...

Thanks so much for replying and I hope to keep you informed and will value your advice.

It does hurt unbearably some days but some days like today where I unloaded my burden and was met with kindness, honesty and advice I can sigh with relief and know how many good people are in this world.

Take care,
Michele

Me 42
H 41
M 1993
Bomb dropped 5/16/09, still here

Michele I am sitting here with my mouth "WIDE OPEN".
I have read MANY sitch's on this board for the past 8 months or so but YOURS is almost IDENTICAL to mine, right down to the age of us and the years we were married. I can not believe it.
My xh, yes we divorced, said almost the EXACT same things. In my threads I know I forgot some things and reading your thread brings them back to mind.

"we needed to stop being in denial "
XH said the same thing. He also said he was tired of leading me on.

"H wants to leave everything else with me and he said he simply doesn't care what happens to it"
XH said this also. He basically only took his clothes, said he could care less what I did with his stuff he left.

"He also says he is so tormented he wishes he had the ability to end his life."
My xh told me he had thought about suicide. He cried while telling me this.

"a vasectomy consult"
Yep mine did this too. Scheduled the appt. but I dont think he ever went. Was determined to get one. He had been talking about this for about a year. (probably when he started going out on me)

I dont know if your h did this, but mine started working out like crazy and and laying in the tanning bed. Wanted to get tanned to show off his muscles.
He has also said, "We can always get remarried". He said this early on in the sitch.

Michele, it has been over 8 months for me, more like 9 I guess.
We have been divorced for 6 months, almost 7.
My xh did have ow. He is now living with a DIFFERENT gf, and planning to get married in Aug.
He is VERY angry and refuses to talk with me. He speaks to our son every day, but doesnt ask about me.
I am having a hard time dealing with his anger. That, I have to say, is/was very hard for me.
He left me but HE is the one that is the angriest.
We did speak some until the gf moved in.

I know its heartbreaking. It seems like a bad dream.
This is a loooonng road and you have to take one day at a time.
If you want to wait this out, that is great, but dont sit around, like I did at first, and watch the clock. It will drive you crazy.
They are NOT the same people.

I will check back in later. I am here and I TOTALLY know what you are going thru, as does everyone else here. Please feel free to ask me anything. I asked a billion of questions and still do.
You will sometimes get mixed opinions, but basically everyone says the same thing, just in a different way.

Take Care,
Renee

A man will seldom leave unless there is an OW waiting in the wings. It's guilt that's making your H leave everything for you, his comments about suicide, not letting his family know, etc. Just guilt.

Find a friend who can be your confidante --- someone you trust. That's what I did anyway. Just to get some release from the stress of it all. Don't go to family.

When does he intend to leave? It could be time to use the LRT. There are a lot of hints to what's bothering him in what he is saying. For instance, he says you are boring. Perhaps, he just feels he is bored with his life and it includes you and everything/everyone in it. Is there something you can do that will shake things up? Maybe being light and breezy justified his feeling of being bored. So, that didn't work --- what else can you try? How about dressing sexy and going out with some friends to a club? You need the break anyway, need to GAL, so why not try this. Make sure he sees what he will be missing. That's just an example, and I am sure you can come up with better ideas.

Remember the time you first met --- what attracted him to you then?

Once he leaves for Montreal, there won't be much you can do (unless he realises on his own that it's not what he wants), so now is your time to show him that you are the greener grass.

Take care.

Quote:

The next day after the party H's sister called him and told him that both she, her husband and their mother were very concerned about his health. He has lost a lot of weight and seems very down. He did not like this assessment.

Considering this ---- perhaps it would be a good idea to let them know the basics. You don't have to pour your soul out to them, but you can tell them that he has asked for a D, and is considering leaving, and how distraught you have been and unable to change his mind. Ask them to pray for you and your M. No more than that, I would think. This is your business too ---- this is your M and these people are his family and your family too, who love him and deserve to, at least, know that he's leaving the country and know why he is losing weight and looking so bad.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. Think about it, and go with your gut feeling on this.

Renee,

I got goosebumps reading your note. Thoughts, questions, comments flood my mind. Don't have time to post but will be back shortly. Any more details to share are encouraged. I live in Minnesota, how about you, because I just want to give you a real hug!

Take care,
Michele

Me 42
H 41
Married 1993
No Kids
Bomb dropped 5/16/09

C
welcome..sorry you find yourself here though

Your H said/did the basics that a lot of other mlcers/was do

1. they deny OW
mine denied OW for 2 years until I found a lease agreement
2. They move out taking very little
mine left in a few large plastic bags with clothes
leaving a 4 bedroom home and everything in it
3. they say we are in denial
they dont understand why we are being so nice?
4. they spend a lot of money..they will create huge debt
so be aware and protect your credit, property, investments, bank accounts
5. they lie about everything under the sun
do not expect any truth from him at this point6
6. they refuse MC or they go for a few sessions then stop saying they M is over and they tried but it cant be repaired
7. they say things you will find someone better
I never really loved you or
you really dont love me anyway and will be better off
they rewrite history to suit their new purposes

I would also find a support group or therapy to help get thru this
this isnt your fault
this is a crises
you cant change it And CHANCES ARE HE WILL HAVE TO RIDE IT OUT
db helps you and helps keep the door open while your H tries to figure it out

they say NO R talks--it wont help
no begging whining crying in front of the MLCer
It takes time but you will see then deteriorate
they run in replay for a while 1-2 years then
you see it the crash
they lose it all
and they never find the happiness they seek
they are miserable
mine is a lost soul st this point
peace

peace- good recap....and I second that...lost soul ...my x has never looked worse......does not look happy at all

So true, Peace!

Peace, thanks for your post and spelling out the steps. They hit home and are so true.

I had been DB'ing and doing well, obviously slipped off the bandwagon after being told he had a place ready to move to in August. I know it is naive but just find it incredible this has occurred with others. H thinking he can take a few things and go, no cares that I would be stuck with everything else! WOW!!! It is a complete disconnect with reality. H said he has divorce papers and would like us to complete together. I told him I was not ready for that step and H said it would be very difficult but really there is nothing left and would not be fair to me to just separate at this point. Too much had happened and it was time for him to go. H made me feel guilty that I may not go along and therefore causing us to waste more of our money. I told him spending money and dragging it out was not my intent; however, divorcing was not my intent either. Our marriage contract is important to me and I don't feel like filing for irreconcilable differences when he absolutely refused to even talk for a half hour on the telephone with me and a counselor. We have 20 years together most of them awesome and somehow that does not warrant any potential for putting any in effort or towards a goal of 20 more. I cannot wrap my head around this he can open the door walk out and never come back.

As for my sister-in-law, first and foremost I would consider her a friend and I do consider her opinion and concern for H as very important in this instance. I have spilled the beans to her and she is sad, but supportive. She told me to get my finances in order and to protect myself as she also believes H is not thinking rationally and that money could go quickly. If H leaves, he will leave his sister alone in the care of their mother and she will be abandoned also. She is H's oldest sibling and his only sister who basically took care of him and included him in her life growing up. So she is hurt and disappointed that H is close to walking away from everyone in his life, no care no responsibility or conscience.

I had told H that his sister and mother were very concerned about him and they had reached out to me to find out what was wrong and at this point I told him that I agreed with them I was very concerned with his mental state/depression also and he would need to tell them something soon because I was now stuck in the middle. H said he supposed he had to do something soon. Absolutely no concern the added layer of stress this puts on me. H actually said I am sure there is nothing more than both yourself and my sister would like to do than put a butterfly net over my head. I did not respond, because whatever I say is wrong or doesn't matter.

I freely admit I am still in shock and hoping this is just a dream, but reading these posts it clearly is not and there is a super long road ahead. I don't know right now what tact I am going to take. I have been DB'ing and the positive I get from this is taking care of ourselves first. You have got to, you have got to protect yourself and you have got to work on a life for yourself because the life of being with an MLC'er is not reality. We deserve to live in reality and to understand none of this is our fault and we basically are at the mercy of whatever is happening in any given stage how they handle it and proceed. The DB'ing worked somewhat I put my best face forward, no R talk, trying to do things for me; however, right now I feel there are things I need to tell H and this does involve R talk. These are things he may not listen to now, but maybe they will sink in later. H loves to say he is crazy, insane; but of course, this is for him being a wild man, living life, etc.

I also cannot put the cat in the bag because his sister knows and she has volunteered to speak with him out of concern for their mother and to also tell him she is concerned about me. She would offer H help or to let him speak, she of course, would not bias the conversation with telling him she knows she understands this would be destructive and send him into thinking everyone is against him. She understands that his renting a place, scheduling a vasectomy, speaking with an attorney, etc. are all signs of putting things in order to leave. I feel grateful but also sad to say these things about someone we both love and care for deeply.

H continually tells me what will be best for me and I've told him he has no right to feel for me or tell me what is best. In fact, when he leaves I will be in a job that requires two people and he feels our boss will simply keep me on and just find someone else to fill his position, no problem. I can just stay here with everything from our life together left here and just continue on and no doubt my life will just be a happy ray of sunshine in short order and will be so glad we divorced. I told H that it seems like everything for me just stays the same I am just taking an eraser and erasing him out of the picture. I told H I don't want to stay working here so everybody (there would be a large amount of people) who would wonder what happened, where H had gone, etc. I cannot get over there complete lack of empathy for what they are leaving behind.

H also says there is no OW, but there are friends he cares deeply about and find so fascinating. H did state though of course the potential of meeting other women and having sex was very appealing. He felt they were less judgmental, less puritanical and less likely to get involved in possessive relationships.

Today I plan to get copies of all my finances and possibly contact an attorney in the next two days so I know my rights. I've also thought about filing for divorce myself because I don't want to aid and abet anymore of his twisted logic.

I would welcome comments/thoughts on how you have proceeded and handled yourselves or steps you've taken at this stage in the game.

I certainly love H will all my heart and feel awful for what must be going through his mind, but feeling so frustrated and unsure of how to handle myself next.

THANK YOU & HUGS TO ALL,
Michele

M 42
H 41
M 1993
No kids
Bomb dropped 5/16/09, H says he has divorce papers

To: sunshinelewis

There are so many similarities. He is definitely obsessed with his body image. He has been going out a lunch time to catch a few rays. He also says we could easily get remarried. He says being with one person all your life is just no realistic. He is going through with the vasectomy on July 15th. He will go through with it because they are going to put him completely under so hey, he was almost relieved.

Did you DB? Did you have success? Honestly at this point the DB'ing had worked but he comments "who is that girl and where has she been"? And than, the "it's too late" people cannot change and it won't last. He keeps saying I am too good for him and deserve better. At first he would get as emotional as I would and hoped things would work out; however, he would never ever just talk to a counselor not even on the phone for 30 minutes. Absolutely states there is nothing anyone can illuminate for us, if we couldn't make it work together than we've got to split. Of course, predicts by fall I'll be much happier alone.

Ahhh, back to my DB point. I do agree DB techniques are positive and the main thing is that they teach you to take care of yourself, to explore yourself and to reach the conclusion that you need to always like and take care of numero uno first. However, I do question DB techniques when it reaches this stage where the fantasy land they are living in and the justifying they do is such twisted logic, is there a chance they are going to notice "us" and feel remorse. I get the feeling at this stage of the roller coaster they are going for a ride. I usually would fall off the wagon and within 24 hours could be DB'ing, but this time I am quite low. I am going to contact an attorney just to know my rights and get my financial paperwork in order.

I totally hurt that he has directed so much anger at you, but the anger I would still suspect maybe guilt. My best guess is he is not all that happy either and getting married again so soon may be a disaster for him. It is good he talks with your son but that doesn't make it easy to be ignored.

You sound so strong and I would really like to hear more of your story and watch for more parallels.

Thanks,
Michele

M 42
H 41
Married 1993
Together 1986
No Kids
Bomb 5/16/09
Wants D, not yet filed

Beingme,

Thanks for your post. Seeing your location is Canada, I could not help but wonder what all the wonderfulness is about being my H wants to move there and become a citizen...H explains that Canadians do not seem so hung up on marriage, are able to relax and enjoy their time more and overall have a better quality of life. H claims there are many beautiful women in Montreal. Anyway, just ribbing you a bit...

I think it is time to use LRT, but not sure how best to employ this tactic, any ideas? I've tried as you suggested the sexy going out, stepping out of my comfort zone in many ways and H was quite happy but everything led to the same statement "it's too late, you cannot change, etc."

Your right when H leaves for Montreal there is not much hope because H is going to burn his bridges with friends and family if he chooses to leave all responsibility behind and take off, eh! So, all my DB'ing has probably just been delaying the inevitable in my best estimation but I know it will make it much more difficult for H to walk out the door. I can tell H has stepped up his delusional thinking and is rationalizing everything that he is making plans to go and he must go through with it, he would not want to disappoint his new friends. And, the new friends have now saved a unit in their co-op building for August.

His sister knows the story and she will be left with taking care of their mother. My H is very bitter about his mother and feels she doesn't care about him, etc. Telling the sister only came about again as she and her mother noticed his physical self and his withdrawn look, and concerns of severe depression. Of course, H acts like a mope when he is around them so in one way it looks as though he is almost looking for sympathy and concern, but when they have told them they are, he doesn't believe they care.

At this point, I understand our M may fail but I do feel that I should point out to H that he should not blow it with his family because they want to be there for him and they always have been. Not a terrifically great relationship but H has never suffered more than annoyance.

The stress is really ratcheting up and I am back to the bitter, angry stage and trying to put my best face forward is something I've done with limited ability over the past couple of days. How did you or others suck it up when it appears the end is coming for real this time?

Thanks,
Michele

M 42
H 41
Married 16 yrs.
Together 20 yrs.
No kids, 1 cat
Bomb dropped 5/16/09 and now seriously talking D

Hi Chel,

I am not on these boards very much anymore but I read your thread and wanted to let you know that I have been where you are. My H did everything yours is doing, or is going to do.

My H had an OW and lied about it, he fell off the face of the earth and didn't see his children, he spent money like water and racked up major debt, he filed for divorce told me he never loved me and our marriage was over.

Throughout this time, I DB'd my butt off, at times H would see me but the majority of the time I did it for me. I was doing ok as a single mom, paying the bills and working. I would go out with my friends and I had a huge support system, my biggest supporters being my brother and sister in law (H's brother).

The day we went to court, I was a ROCK. I didn't yell, scream, cry....nothing. I was very businesslike and we settled on an agreement. Mind you, this was a great act because I was ready to rip his eyes out.

Even after all this and the divorce in process, H came back! He stopped the process of the D and wanted to come home. I said I would try but on my terms...we went to counseling and lived apart while we reconnected. H became very involved with the kids and was being the best father he had been in a long time.

All of this was over two years ago. We just celebrated our 9th anniversary yesterday and our marriage is stronger. We do still talk about what happened and attend counseling once every few months.

My advice to you is to get your finances in order, talk to a lawyer to see what your rights are but DO NOT FILE if you are not ready to be divorced!! The one thing I kept saying to my H while we were S, was if you want it, do it yourself, I am not helping you.

The things your H is saying are so typical! I was also blamed for everything...You have the fact that your H is still at home on your side...SHOW him what he will be missing!!

My H totally shocked me and dumped the news that he wasn't happy and didn't want to be married while we were on vacation!

You are not alone in all this! Like I said, I have lived your story! I will continue to check up on you!

MIchelle

the choice is yours about how you handle D
seeking an attorny to get the facts though is an excellent idea

You can comply to D
or you can stall it
some even contest it
but talk to the L--sometimes it is so expensive to drag it all out
MY L got 350- an hour--he was great but so costly

I have read to treat the D process like a business deal
I chose to stall it as long as possible
that worked for me to a point because I realized H was busting out business and had I not I may have lost the business and any means of support
so be realistic about your assets--this is so important and put H second to this for now
I was left with 2 kids..
and not working
so I tried to get as much property, support,money as possible
half way thru the D , I realized MY H was running our business into the ground and had created huge debt
he had spent so much money..on the oW

so I got control of the business and have restored it with my brothers help
now we all work together..I am H secretary( really)
so I personaaly would get everyrhing financially possible especially since he is moving
and afetr you get thru the hurdle of deciding how to handle D or seperation
you can decide how to handle H
continue with your DBing but know things get a little hairy during D with the L
I had the luxery of DB for over a year before H filed( I told him to file)
so do whatever you can to take care of yourself
find therapy and get support
the other side of the journey is amaxing for us LBS
the rewards of doing the work are huge for us
many of us find reaL HAPPINESS
r WITH ALL OTHER PEOPLE INCLING xh IMPROVE
we get it all --the inward stuff the peace the love
it is ours
so know this road is not for the weak..I believe we are called
and the lucky ones
peace

Hi Chel! Montreal is a long way from where I live, and another world. I have a friend from there and she says it is very cosmopolitan. Most people speak French, and they are not inclined to like english speakers. If one is not used to it, it may become overwhelming after awhile --- you know, like when you're on vacation, and it's great fun, but after a couple of weeks you just want to go home.

As for M --- the divorce rate in Canada is 30%, so that says it all. I know you were just ribbing me, but I just wanted to point it out.

Mom and Peace are right in so many ways, but I want to point out (and I have been on this board a looooonnnng time), that it is quite rare to get a MLC spouse back, and if you do, to get back the spouse you had or want (at least, in my case where I got my friend back, but not my husband). So, be prepared for that too. I would stress to your H that you are going out and having fun for yourself and not because you are 'changing for him', so it's not 'too late', but just in time for YOU. You might even thank him for waking you up to the fact that you were in a rut. But, be sure to make him see that it's not for him, because it's not. Of course, this is if he brings up any R talk. This is a time where you can look at yourself and see what's missing, where you can improve, whether you've been holding out on yourself.

The big thing with DB, is detaching. Try and find a way to detach from the drama of his life. You cannot do a thing for him now. His R with his mother and sister is up to him now. Don't try and make it better for him. He has to face every consequence of his actions. And, just because he's in Montreal, doesn't mean he won't be thinking of them.

The more you try and hold him back, the more he will justify his leaving. Let go! At least, try. It will be better for you, and it will leave him with no excuses. Anger does help with detachment, by the way.

Definitely, get to that L, take care of your finances, etc. I agree, do not start the proceedings --- let him do it, if he wants it so bad.

Just a side note --- don't y'all think Governor Stanford is going through MLC? Key word to his mistress --- she is my 'soul mate'. I feel so sorry for the wives who have to play this out in public.

YES...the Governor has a bit of MLC!! I heard someone on TV even see it!

I just want to clarify something that BeingMe said. She is right that getting an MLCer back is a rarity. I did not get back the same man that left. When I DB'd I did it for me, but H tells me all the time how it drove him crazy that he didn't know what i was doing, who I was with etc...

DB for you!! It really does make you feel better!

Hey MOM....I know you said it drove your H crazy wondering what you're doing but did he tell you at the time that he wanted you to do and he was glad you were going out...
my H told me I needed to date that if I found someone he would shake his hand....so that made me sad....that just told me he was truly done...or is it just another MLC Phrase?

and the email I got yesterday (it was so cold and businesslike) was gutwrenching....didn't say much but what it did say tore my heart out...then I talked to him on the phone and he wants us to sit down and talk this over in person...he says he wants to take careof me and the kids....WTF? He may be getting pressure from OW....I don't know...but he is so calm and claims he's doing whats best for me and the kids...wants to sit down and discuss money and what I should receive...I said I could not do that, that I would contact my attorney,.then he got mad that I was wasting what little money we had, that I will never get more than half of his money...it's just the law he said....well....the law SUCKS!! We chose for me to stay home and I want to live the same way I've lived for the past 30 years....this was HIS choice not mine...I tried to explain that but it was like talking to a brick....

He did admit however that he can't think about our girls not talking to him because it does hurt him, and if he dwelled on it he wouldn't be able to function....

I'm so confused.....

Treese

treese,

YES, my H did say I should date and he knew that I would meet someone and get remarried someday. He also said he would be very happy for me...

CRAZY talk!! Once we began talking about what went on while he was in MLC land, he said it was his way of making himself feel better because he knew I wasn't sitting home.

WTF??? Ignore what they say and do.

Greetings BeingMe,

Yes, H said Montreal is very cosmopolitan. H had been taking french lessons and is enamored with the french speaking women and in general their laid back views on judging others, morals, sex, etc. H wants out of the USA in addition to me. H actually said today if our country had shown any promise after electing Obama he would have stayed! YIKES. Now it is the politicians fault he is leaving my marriage. And as for Gov. Sanford, H just goes crazy when that is on the news. He agrees how hypocritical the guy is, etc. but of course he claims the media and everyone talking about should get out of peoples private lives and realize that marriage is hard and a commitment that some cannot keep. Such as his case, H has tried to be my husband and accept the things he would like to change about me but he is done. I feel so sorry for Mrs. Sanford and her children to go through this s&*t in public would be too much to bear.

H told me today he would like to get D paperwork going and have me drive him close to the Canadian border mid-August and his new friends in Montreal will drive from Thunder Bay to get him. It just sounds so wonderful. Today I am being reminded that if I don't agree to the divorce we will waste money with my getting an attorney of my own and I am already ruining his summer with dragging this out and staying in denial that H wants out.

Believe me I've DB'd my butt off and my C said (my sessions with her have ended) I was doing awesome and this sounded like I may be successful. Well I had thought the same and even began to be lulled into this DB'ing stuff is working. It is not and you are right H needs to go because we cannot just work this thing out if H won't meet me half way. And, more importantly I know H and once he goes he is gone...

I have got to the little strength left and detach that is all I have is my dignity because the man I married is gone. I only hope things for you get better I realized that not long ago if H did not leave the house and stayed we would be in the same boat as before and even though I love him deeply and feel he is the family I've only ever wanted I cannot stand living like this.

Thanks for your help, keep the honesty coming,
Michele

M 42
H 41
M 16 yrs.
Together 20 yrs.
No Kids
Bomb 5/16/09
D papers in house, H wants us to do paperwork together
Hope is fading...I am tired!

Hi Chel,

IMHO, I would only sign any D papers (or any other, for that matter) if I completely agree with what's written in it. Wise to get your own attorney to go over any legal stuff. If he wants the D, he must deal with the hassle of dealing with your legal counsel, etc. Just what I think.

Do not drive him to the border. He wants to go, then he should find his own way there. Yeah, no, I don't think any of the French women in Canada will be so laid back if they were in the same sitch as you. He's fooling himself if he thinks so. Many are close to family and are guided pretty much by Catholic morals. He may've hooked up with some younger people, but they also grow up.

Anyway, just my feelings on this. I think he is really trying to find the greener grass, and it just isn't there. Home is where that will be .... true home.

Have a lovely July 4!

Michelle
so sorry there are no real answers
our H seem to change overnight
many seem to get pulled into their new life and looking back on my situation, my xh had litle to no control of himself to stop it
now he is a shell of a man
being me is right--they think thwey will find the greener grass
but 2 plus years later I can tell you thery dont as my H looks worse than when he left
he is broke in debt and gave up everything to live with a 28 year OW
who will probably leave him sooner or later and then nothing
so hard as it is we are powerless over them
we have to take care of ourselves grieve heal and move on
some return but the process is still the same for so many it takes years to realize the greener grass is here
peace

BeingMe,

I told H I would be talking with an attorney on Monday. H was not happy, he had found an attorney for us and he would be absolutely fair, everything down the middle so no need to get two attorneys involved. I remarked I was too emotional to handle this on my own and we could deduct attorney fees off of our half cash, so to speak. I am most concerned about upcoming taxes and H moving to another country.

Woke up with H laying next to me, but as soon as I stirred he crept back over to his side. We have been cordial today but basically the long weekend and 4th stink. Just feel like I'm biding time in a prison. We had sex a lot and have not for a couple of days since things got so tense. I know he wants sex and I know it is a stress reliever but I am torn. Does that diminish my dignity, I can guarantee it won't mean anything to him but if I don't won't I be risking the label of me being boring? Is it possible to DB without sex? Is DB'ing worth it now or is detaching more useful?

How to carry oneself at this stage is confusing...

Please everyone enjoy the 4th, will be lighting some fireworks of my own!

Michele

M 42
H 41
M 16 yrs.
Together 20 yrs.
No kids
Bomb 5/16/09
Divorce papers in house

Easy to say this, but maybe hard to do....
IMO, you need to be strong, whether you give him physical affection or not. You being in charge is important in the sense that you can give him what he wants or you can withhold it, but you are holding the reigns. I don't know what choice is better, as I have heard it both ways.... be his girlfriend, act like his girlfriend and lover, or withhold it, be nice to him, but no physical!

Either way, you can be strong, and in control.
I have not read your whole story yet, but I will have to.
Sorry for your sitch!!!
Happy 4th!!!!

MIchelle
Glad you are getting your own attorney
I have heard other posters wanting to share one attorney
but my best friend told me to NOT be cheap when it came to an attorney and I thionk that was good advice in my case

It is so difficult while they are still living at home
when my XH finally moved out after 4 months of withdrawl, hardly tlking and staying out till all hours of night, it was so peaceful with him gone
that part of the nightmare was over,,he was gone
My XH did not want any physical contact post bomb
slept on couch or elsewhere
so I cant help you there
But I might suggest you listen to your gut
pray about it and do what is best for you right now
put yourself before the DB efforts
peace

Thanks Peace,

It was a very tough day with H on Friday, divorce/attorney talk. Yesterday started tense and than we started to relax around each other, I threw together a picnic, bought a couple of fireworks. And, last night we went up to the roof of our building and saw 6 different fireworks shows. It lead to us having sex and I awoke to him staring at me.

Today we watched Wimbledon Tennis together and than went for a walk. H was weepy the whole walk, I DB'd and remained up beat, talking about anything about R. When I got back I saw H had put out the divorce papers on the table. I saw them and went back to the bedroom to lay down for a quick nap before dinner. Lo and behold H came back and lay next to me. He started to touch me and asked if we could have sex again and I asked if he had divorce papers waiting for me after the fact. H said "yes" and again told me I needed to stop being in denial. That we could still care about each other and be intimate; but, his mind would not be changing. H said he did not know how to make this any easier for me and that I was selfish because I did not understand how difficult this is for him.

Wow! Again, H doesn't get it. I had told him I wanted to speak to an attorney of my own and again he puts the papers out there. By the way, his attorney he has not spoken to, the attorney has no idea he will be leaving the country, etc.
Also, I am leaving for Denver on Tuesday morning, she H intends to retain an attorney while I am gone. That will make it easier because I won't be around. H claims the timing is coincidental but how can I believe him?

This is a once a year family get together with its own emotional times and now on top of this I will be wondering what is going on while I am gone.

I don't want D to happen and I know once they are gone it would be difficult to come back, at least for a very long time. So, I am struggling between DB'ing and LRT/going dark.

I want him to feel like he is leaving a wonderful friend/person behind if he goes - on the other hand I feel that way I am condoning it and playing into the delusion. But, if I make waves H will blame me and that will close the door.

I really need advice how others proceeded up and until the day their loved one walked out the door.

By the way, my H is admiring his body all the time, did anyone else experience that?

One more thing to throw in. Being H doesn't believe his mother has genuine concern over his health (physical and mental) do I ask his mother to tell him that she loves him. Would that do absolutely any good?

Thanks,
Michele

M 42
H 41
Married 16 yrs.
Together 20 yrs.
No Kids, 1 cat
Bomb drop 5/16/09
D papers in my court

Hi Chel. So sorry you find yourself here.

At this point, I would stop worrying about making him mad. You don't have a lot of time to pussyfoot around with the various DB tactics, so put the brakes on.

He is trying to railroad you into signing away your rights, he is insulting you, rejecting you at every turn except sex, and you are playing right into it.

Put your foot down and tell him you are not comfortable with rushing into a D. Repeat this to him like a mantra. And I am not kidding. Each time he starts in on it, hold up your hand and say, "Please stop. I have made up my mind to get my own legal counsel."

What is with the big rush anyway? Doesn't that make you wonder? Slow down! Once he is out of the country, you will be S.O.L. and very sorry that you didn't stand up for yourself.

A 20 year marriage is not something you dissolve by signing some ridiculous paper drawn up by a self-serving jerk with his concern about "wasting money."

Get an atty fast and skip Denver. Who knows what he will pull while you are gone? Protect yourself. You have been shown what he is capable of, and this is just the tip of the iceberg.

When I started my LRT, I stopped sex and I told H there was no way we could be 'friends' after the D ---- friends don't cause such pain. It is almost ridiculous to expect friendship after leaving you and just shunting off to another country, betraying you and leaving you with the mess to deal with. I also think you should postpone your trip until H has actually left and everything has been sorted out --- he is not himself.

Be careful.

Originally Posted By: Chel

He started to touch me and asked if we could have sex again and I asked if he had divorce papers waiting for me after the fact. H said "yes" and again told me I needed to stop being in denial. That we could still care about each other and be intimate; but, his mind would not be changing.

Are you blinkin' kidding me?? He wants you to have sex with him and then sign divorce papers for him before you've even taken a shower? The person in denial here is NOT you!! What does he think D is all about, huh, sunshine and roses and sweet romance with the person he is D'ing? Can we all say "delusional"?? ...yes, I thought we could.

My H never expressed any interest in having sex with me post-bomb, so it wasn't an issue for me, but if I were in your sitch, I would be tempted to tell him that I am a package deal. The sex and the M go together, and if he doesn't want the latter, the former is not an option. You also have to be wary about STD's. This is a complicated issue, and there are plenty of comments on this topic on the forums.

Originally Posted By: Chel

H said he did not know how to make this any easier for me and that I was selfish because I did not understand how difficult this is for him.

See if you can get that man into one of those dunking booths and take away the cage. Maybe a few good smacks with the ball and getting dumped into cold water will help him to correct his definition of the word "selfish," which actually applies to him rather than to you because he is the one who throws his little hissy fits if you don't give him exactly what he wants. He sounds like a 5-year-old. I am seriously running out of patience with these insane MLCers; they truly seem fit for straitjackets sometimes.

Originally Posted By: Chel

I really need advice how others proceeded up and until the day their loved one walked out the door.

For me, during the 13 months between the bomb and when my H chose to move out, the key was being as kind and cheerful when he was around as I could manage. If I couldn't at least be pleasant to him, I got out of there until I got my emotions under control. I am not the one to talk to about boundaries, because I never really set any (he wasn't being rude or vindictive, or asking me for stuff I didn't want to give him, so I just lived with the other stuff, like his ongoing torrid R with OW). It was NOT at all fun or easy, but I was trying very hard to live in a way that would allow me to KNOW that I had done absolutely everything I could to facilitate reconciliation, and that I had lived with integrity despite his actions...and I do know this, and it means a great deal to me. I am able to look myself in the mirror every day and know that even though I have many flaws, I truly did the right thing in response to his antics, and I have nothing to be ashamed of or question myself about.

My thinking was that I couldn't do anything about my past actions, but I was NOT going to give him anything post-bomb that he could point at and say, "I left because she kept doing _________." All his reasons would have to be from things that happened pre-bomb (or that he _thought_ happened), and were no longer applicable, so he wouldn't have a good CURRENT rationale for walking. My goal was to be the sort of W he would have to be crazy to leave.

He did leave, eventually (I think it had something to do with the fact that I actually crossed his wishes once in those 13 months, two weeks before he left [he wanted me to stay away from the community theatre where he was performing {playing a H whose W cheats on him, no less!

} so that OW could attend his performance without having to worry about being in the same room with me, and I politely refused to comply]. I am still waiting for my reconciliation miracle, but I do feel that the way I have treated him since the bomb has helped reduce the amount of friction and nastiness, and that this was the right thing for _me_ to do. I can't speak to what is right for you, though.

Please note: I also think that you need to protect yourself...just think defense, not offense (I am sure some here will encourage a more agressive agenda, and I am not going to argue about that; I don't feel qualified). If he is filing papers against you, you need to get your own lawyer and figure out what your best options are, given that you don't want to burn bridges but you _must_ deal with him in the legal arena. Also, I have no personal knowledge about this, but it is my understanding that given that you don't want a D, it is reasonable for you to request in your paperwork that all of your legal fees be paid by him. Your L will be able to advise you better on that.

Originally Posted By: Chel

H doesn't believe his mother has genuine concern over his health (physical and mental) do I ask his mother to tell him that she loves him. Would that do absolutely any good?

NO, NO, NO! Do not get in the middle of your H's R with his mother. Absolutely stay out of it. If you have a decent R with her, great, but don't try to mediate between them or tell either of them how to behave with the other--it will come back and bite you on the butt. And there's no call to lie, but don't bad-mouth either of them to each other or other family members--if you sling any mud around, some of it is guaranteed to land on you.

Take care of yourself. Read (and practice) everything you can about detaching.

Peace and blessings,
Dawn

Yes, yes, yes --- what Dawn said so awesomely!

Your H is so selfish --- having sex, knowing he is leaving you. Obviously, most women would keep hoping for reconciliation given the intimacy of making love.

Do not sign those papers. It would definitely get him out the door faster if you do, but also, it's not what you want. If he wants a D then he has to go through the whole nasty process and pay for it, IMHO. He should learn that nothing in life is that easy, especially throwing away a 22 yr marriage. You know, just sign a piece of paper then 'cheerio'. It should be, "if you want to get rid of me, baby cheeks, then you're going to have to pay the piper --- I'm not going to just disappear with a quick signature." Well, that's what I would've said to my H if I had been presented with the same scenario. Ha! You are a lot kinder than I am.

Also, I agree with Dawn about getting involved with H's R with his mom. It's theirs to mend or not. You've got enough to contend with your own R with him. It looks to me like he is using every little thing to justify his leaving, even his mother, so it would be pointless to get involved.

Again, I agree with Dawn about detaching. Make that your mantra. Your H is not himself --- he has been taken over by some 'alien' or another, so detach yourself because you're not communicating with your H anymore. Hopefully, he will dig himself out of this one day, but in the meantime, he will say hurtful things that you must learn not to respond to.

Detach and set boundaries and don't do anything you do not want to do.

I got my H back, but you know, he's still not completely 'back' after 4 years. So, it really is a long process. I have my best friend back, but there is still so much missing. I am not saying this will happen to you in the event that your H does reconcile, but whatever the outcome ---- it is going to be a long, hard road. Prepare for it, like you would a cross country road trip. Take things that you will need or anticipate possible needs:
water if you get thirsty = GAL because you will thirst for something to keep you going and this is the best thing
gas in the tank = positive attitude
sandwiches for the trip = possibly see a counsellor to get you through some bumps - sometimes we need extra support
make sure the car is roadworthy - you gotta protect yourself
If you lose your co-driver on the trip, you still have to keep driving. You are a unique person in your own right, and you will be okay and even happy, with or without your H. Learn that you don't need him, you just want him. None of us should need people emotionally --- that gives away our power to control our own destinies (and you cannot control him, which is also why you should leave it up to him to work for the D, if he wants it that badly). But, if you love them and have done so for 22 yrs, then you certainly would want them. One can only hope to influence or inspire our loved ones, but not control them, and that works in the reverse for you too. Your H is trying to control you, and he has no right to do that.

Anyway, I hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to say, I hope. So, in a nutshell:

GAL
Detach lovingly
practice self control
Be independent
Positive attitude
Let him do the work of D
Protect yourself
Know that if there is no reconciliation, you will be okay
Be prepared for long, difficult process

These are just ideas I'm throwing out there, that I hope may inspire you. You know your sitch best though, so follow your gut feelings. There is no one solution for every sitch. Sometimes, nothing we do will rectify the M, then you just have to let go and walk another path, knowing you've done all you can (as Dawn says, "I had done absolutely everything I could to facilitate reconciliation, and that I had lived with integrity despite his actions."

Okay, this is long enough, I guess. I have a lot of time on my hands right now.

Hey BeingMe, Dawn, Peace, Kimmie, et al.

Thanks for being here and thanks for every post. I truly rely on the strength and power of this group to keep me honest and to keep me from going crazy! I am so sorry that anyone has to go through this but I do know that this journey shows you how many wonderful, caring people are out there - each of you so special and so undeserving of this roller coaster ride from hell.

Well, I am in Denver. I hesitated but felt I needed to get away and live for a few days in a normal real world and to be as fun and loving as I could to my family. H had wanted me to complete the financial D paperwork before I left Tuesday a.m. so he would mail that along with retainer fee for the attorney H choose. It did not happen for reasons to follow; however, I would not have done it anyway. Why? Because you all are right I need my own L and have no reason to simply trust H or to let H make me feel like a money grubbing, whore. I had told him Sunday night that I intended to contact an attorney and was not onboard with his idea of how to D. I also matter of fact told H that if he was so concerned with money we could D on our own (lots and lots of paperwork). H declared we could not D on our own because we had been married more than 8 yrs; however, I had done some initial research and I truly believed he was wrong.

Monday, day before Denver trip, H began the day with a chip on his shoulder and was quite hostile and grouchy. H started blaming me for stuff not getting done at work, etc. I had had enough, I told him that he could have taken care of it himself if it was so important and I was not accepting his blame. About an hour later H came into the room with tears running down his face. H looked so sad and broken. At lunch I found him laying in bed, still weeping. I sat next to him and asked him if he would be able to work or if I needed to cancel my trip. He said to go, I told him that I was very concerned with his mental state and told him for just a moment to trust me as his friend. I told him that he seems to be severely depressed and I think he is running away to try and get away from the depression but it would follow him. We have had this conversation before, but this time H said you may be right but it was just too late. H got up and left the room. I did not pursue, in fact, I just felt sad for him.

I had so much to do in the afternoon that I did not see H again until dinner time. H was still weepy. I told him I was going to run a couple of errands. I brought back some dinner and H was just sitting in the livingroom staring off into space when I got back. He ate like a maniac. I kept waiting for H to ask if I had finished the paperwork, etc. He layed on the couch just watching me go back and forth washing clothes, packing, etc. Again I found him weeping, I walked over to him and gave him a hug and just rubbed his back. I had so much to say but I kept it brief. I told H that I really did feel bad as his friend that whatever was going on inside him was causing so much pain. I had asked if he would consent to a doctor's visit to check his fluid levels. H indicated right away that he was not interested in taking any depression medication, etc. I told him I truly could not help him, he needed to come to the realization he is in crisis and needs to seek help or he will continue to feel like this and will end up if he continues his plans/path for the future worse off. I told him that couples do D and we have had so much between us that I did not expect any miracles at this point but again as his friend I was so concerned! I asked when I get back if we could get a mental health checkup and he just said snidely sure. H told me that I was the only reason that he was half the human being that he is and how the back rub had felt so wonderful, the power of touch so strong. Than I walked away to get ready for bed.

I was exhausted and sure enough just as I got up to leave H asks if the D paperwork was mostly completed. I said no and in fact was nowhere near ready. H replied no problem and I went to bed. H came back to bed shortly after and rubbed my back.

The next morning I was up early getting ready and picked up the D papers to move them off the kitchen table. I noticed the attorney retainer agreement was not signed but he had a blank check attached to it. My heart sank but I said nothing. BTW, H told me the day before he would not mail any paperwork or retain an attorney while I was gone. Of course, I want to believe him but a big part of me says stop being a chump. So I left and will not know until I get back Sunday. I am trying hard not to try and guess. But guess what cannot shut down my mind...

H took me to the airport and kissed me goodbye. H said I love you (no it was not romantic or bonding moment; in fact he was back to his indifferent self). When I got to Denver I checked in with my SIL and she remarked she had seen H on Sunday night at their mother's place and H kept asking questions of my SIL about her friend whose husband had left her and her kids for a younger woman two years ago. Neither of us knew what that meant if anything so I just let her know where I could be reached if anything came up. I checked my e-mail and had a note from my potential L that she would look over the financial paperwork when complete if I wished and I also rec'd an e-mail from my 4th District Court stating we could do divorce on our own (again stating much paperwork and probably going before a judge if we did it alone). I have not shared this information with H and do not intend to while on vacation. I have some hope but with him being so all over the place with his emotions I do not doubt there is a big possibility he will go ahead and retain an attorney while I am gone, even though he promised he would not.

I do want to detach and I know that is the step I need to take. What I do not know is if my H is playing me or if he is really starting to realize he cannot fix on his own what is happening to him. Or, if the time apart will just help solidify his plans and need to go forward. I can only imagine a man doesn't want to appear weak and needy so he will continue on the path of self destruction.

H has called me each night, very detached, but said at the end of the conversation love ya and to wish me a good time with family. I have been obsessing about what will happen when I get back. Will he acknowledge his depression or will he just go back to his old ways and start pushing filling out D papers again. I was driving myself nuts until I finally decided this morning that either way I have no control. Either way when I get back it will be a difficult road ahead. Best case scenario he admits he needs some help, worst case scenario he pushes D. I decided if he pushes D I will retain my own attorney no matter the consequences. I will also at that point tell him no more physical contact.

Does this match anyone else's experiences? If so, any advice or guess on his next move would be very appreciated. Does my plan on how to act when I get back seem sound or am I in lala land?

Thanks for listening,
Chel

M 42
H 41
M 16 yrs.
Together 20 yrs.
No kids, 1 cat
Bomb 5/16/09
Divorce papers in the middle of our lives just waiting to be completed...trying to detach

Michelle
every situation has some similarities and differences
MY xh was very mixed in the beginning..he still lives at home 4 months after bomb although he was secretly sleeping with OW
MY x thought he was honest about his choice since he Told me he wanted out even though we were still M and living together
my X had swings during these 2 years especially the first year of calling, visiting frequently and not picking up calls and withdrawing
only TIME will really tell if your H is going to seek help
you planted the seeds thats really all you can do
and you handled him well
your choice to retain attorney is an excellent choice
and stopping physical contact is also also a wise choice at this time to help you detatch
if you can start your own therapy that will help
good luck
you re doing great
peace

Quote:

Best case scenario he admits he needs some help, worst case scenario he pushes D. I decided if he pushes D I will retain my own attorney no matter the consequences. I will also at that point tell him no more physical contact.

Good way of looking at this, Chel. Your H is sure putting you through an emotional rollercoaster, but I feel that you are starting to detach. When all is said and done, your H certainly has not been the worse MLC'er, actually, one of the better ones, but the emotions involved are no less painful. Sometimes, when they go completely crazy it makes it easier to detach and let go. But, when they're like your H, it's difficult.

Perhaps it was a good idea to go to Denver (only you know what's good for you and it seems this is) --- maybe give your H a chance to see what life is without you, and give you an emotional battery recharge, familywise.

My H and I are going camping today until Saturday morning. It's going to be interesting to see what camping is like without our children.

Enjoy your break!

Hey thanks,

I think your camping trip will go well, just relax, smile and 'be you' let the beauty of nature do the rest. You have a perfect back drop for being together.

It was good to hear how you phrased that my MLC'er is better than most because I felt after reading some posts just awful at how the complete disconnect both mentally, verbally and physically took place all at the same time and so abruptly. However, at times I wished H would have just done that because he vacilates between being loving and cruel. Even today H called to make sure I was having a good time and if I needed him to do anything around the house. That was nice and you would expect it from someone who is acting as an appropriate spouse; however, it has the power to lull myself into a false sense of security and I just cannot do that anymore.

Well, anyway. As I said doesn't appear as though I will really know until I get back.

So I wish us both well and will be anxious to hear about your camping trip.

One day at a time, right?

Chel

M 42
H 41
M 16 yrs. Together 20 yrs.
No kids, 1 cat
Bomb 5/16/09
D papers unsigned in H's hands

Peace,

So true, my H too believes that being he has told me he no longer wants to be married that no matter how he acts, loving, sexual it in no way means there is a chance to stay together. If I have ever felt there was some real progress with my DB'ing and H was responding well; he would no sooner make it clear that he still wanted a divorce. Sometimes I think H is convinced that I will wake up, accept what is happening be his friend and still hang out in the future with our new mates. He feels our bond is strong enough to endure this and remain best friends, that I agree this will be the best outcome for both of us and I indeed will be happier on my own. And, on my end I keep thinking the longer he stays and acts loving toward me he won't be able to walk out that door.

I guess we both are just knocking our heads against the wall, so detahing is really the healthy way to go forward. No doubt my roller coaster ride is going to make me sick soon unless I get off.

Take care and thanks for writing,
Chel
M 42
H 41
M 16 ys.
Togeher 20 yrs.
No kids, 1 cat
Bomb 5/16/09
D papers unsigned in H's corner

michelle
the Mlcer is so confused
I saw acts of kindness my x also wanted to be friends and we were for the past few years
after I found out he ha dbeen living with OW for practically the whole time since he left
I decided to detach more
the D also made us distant
now we work together so we speak a lot
and we get along well
I am into new things with friends and I no longer want
to restore M
so yes
they want our friendship..maybe that relieves guilt maybe that helps them let go knowing we still are here in some form
some will and do return
friendship keeps the door open
you really only know what to do in time
it isnt over when they move out
when they file
when the D is final
we can do some of the deciding too
what course of action will we take
how long we will stand
when we will move on
if we want a friendship or not
if we want to go dark
we make decisions try things see if anything works then try something else
I can tell you I tried it all to the best of my ability
I have only reaslly let go dince the D in March and probably I only let go b/c I met a man and became somewhat involverd in Emotional R
so buckle up
you are doing great
peace

Hey,

Okay, back from vacation. As soon as plane landed tears welled up in my eyes and by the time I got home I could not stop crying. It was so empty to come home to H's rejection and go back into this roller coaster hell life again.

Of course, H was just fine. I told him that I was not on board with D and would not be going along with his D schedule. Also, I told H I would not drive him anywhere to help start his new life. H indicated I could go away for the weekend H wants to leave and H would have his friends?? come and pickup him up and load the car. I told H I was going nowhere and did not want his friends?? to come into our home.

However, I did drive H to his vasectomy, stay through the procedure and drive him home and make him something to eat. I also am working in his place so he can rest. The nurses at the Hospital just thought my H was so funny and really the whole process was nauseating. They said his vitals were so good he must be a runner. Just what he needed to hear, feeds into his ego... Of course, the night before the vasectomy I also cried and explained to him that not only does my H want to D me but H has also now made an appointment to make sure that I know H does not want to have kids with me. I also told H that once Vasectomy is done H is free to run around and be free with all the potential beautiful ladies in Montreal. H of course, did not understand how any of this could make me feel. In fact, H said I know I am the [censored], blah, blah, blah. H also said see this is why we just need to split because this endless back and forth is just too hard. Those comments no longer bother me, so I kept hitting him over the head with it until he finally just said do you want me to cancel the appointment? I replied hey, don't start taking me into account now... So all went well, H was a hit with nurses/doctors and I just sat there and took it over and over again. He also said I never said I did not want to married to you anymore as the D papers were about 2 feet away from us as were talking/arguing. No doubt more words just to confuse.

Since I have been home for a couple of days H has not mentioned D at all, but no doubt he needs to heal from vasectomy and needs my full attention so no doubt that won't be brought up again for another couple of days. I know it will have to fit his schedule of needs. And, H reminded me last night that when we got home from Hospital that I left him alone for 2 hours without checking on him. He indicated that I used to always pay more attention to him, but of course, no understanding why those doting/loving acts may have waned.

I am back on the wagon and will talk no R anymore, but I am completely exhausted/frazzled. If H talks no D than I will pursue no D and have decided instead to go look at a new place to rent for myself, because H has given no indication whatsoever his plans have changed. I am going to say on Saturday very casually I am going to look at a couple of places to live when he leaves. Have decided I am not staying here either (not really sure) but don't want him to think I am going to stay here with all our stuff while H packs a few things and takes off.

Is this a good strategy?

Also, frazzled because I have our nephew, age 7, coming August 2nd for a week (has been planned for months); and, I don't know what the hell I can expect from H. H is going to need to cover for me at work and I would hope be good to my nephew. On top of that, I am sure my mother will be coming and that adds another layer of disfunction. I am so anxious and just never no what to expect one moment to the next.

I know no R talk is the right thing to do; but, at this point I just want to give him an ultimatum either he enters counseling or he moves out immediately. On the other hand that is not realistic because we work together and our job is tied to our condo, etc. This living in a make believe world has caught up with me and I do intend to Detach but man is this so difficult. I am living so many lies, lying to myself and wondering why would I want someone in my life who makes me feel like this? What if H doesn't leave than what, if he won't agree to counseling, what's left? Will he drive me to D? How do/did you guys overcome this stage of MLC?

Help?

Michele

M 42
H 41
M 16 yrs.
Together 20 yrs.
1 cat, no kids
Bomb 5/16/09
D papers on kitchen counter, staring me in the face but unsigned

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger"?

wow There is alot in that post...

Let me get this right....you have been married 16 years, together 20, you are 42, he is 41 and the BIG V -- Had you thinking now you wont have kids with him????? I was just wondering did you think you were going to still have kids had this MLC Bomb never hit? I am more just wondering if he has been the type of guy that said ...you know not now but we can think about it later....and you kept waiting or was it just that you are now just looking at the finality if this means no kids with him???

He does not want kids and has made that decision and did not include you.......maybe its alwasy been that way????

While I dont believe in D and it should be avoided at all costs...when there are no kids.....looking back dont be worried about the divorce..yes its hell...but with no kids...its only u two and at least their are no kids to get devasted and tossed back and forth, or worse abandoned my one.....

I would really work on detaching from him.....

Maybe another DB session would help

Dear Chel, you may not welcome any POV from a person who was almost a WAW. I won't say a lot except that I have read your entire thread and it seems that you "mother" your H very much and very often. He appears to be a "mamma's boy" to you more than a H who has the b@lls to be the man he should. It's been said he wasn't the worst MLCer but yet, I don't know how you've dealt with him as long as you have. I know you are in much pain and probably think that your life is over, but I think you sound like a very educated lady who can do about anything she decides. I believe that the shock of all of this pain has caused you to lose sight of how classy and talented you are and maybe even how much you have to give as a woman. I hear this in your post, Chel.....I believe you are that lady!

When I said that you mother your H, I do not mean that as an insult. It happens all the time with W's and we don't even realize what we are doing. He not only sounds very selfish, but very spoiled. I am glad you have a good R with his mother and family, but please don't make any more decisions for him or try to "fix" the R with his family. Also, be warned the blood is thicker than water and you will probably be seen as "outside" the family if there is a D. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but when it is "our" pain....it is hard to see our stitch as it often is.

I wish you all the best. Please take care of yourself.

Sandi

Back from Denver, took my H for vasectomy and now that H is feeling better he brought up D papers. H asked what my plans for the future were last night during dinner and I asked what he meant.

H said time was passing quickly and that we both again his favorite slogan "need to stop the denial of us divorcing". I indicated I had not brought up the issue and he had not brought up the issue for awhile so had hoped he was willing to work on our marriage. Nope! I was the one dragging my feet filling out the financial paperwork and again when I brought up myself retaining an attorney he just went off. He said I was going to make things ugly, that I had been dragging my feet on the paperwork to keep him there and I would do anything to make him feel guilty and drag this out. He emphatically stated he wanted to move to Montreal and start meeting new flesh to bite into. H said some harsh things and it took me a long time to recoup last night, the pain resurfaced, I did not think I could get this emotional anymore after these months.

Of course, I fully intend to retain an attorney for myself, I think I have found someone who is compatible. I have got family coming August 2nd through August 11th and again we live and work together. I don't know who this man is anymore and I cannot DB anymore - right now I feel just maintaining my sanity will be about as good as I can get.

I've obviously been and am a doormat - H said last night after I told him I would miss him and had hoped our marriage would have survived that I was pathetic to still care or love him. Again, as you have all said the things they say is so out of the norm and so hurtful it is hard not to be hurt deeply when those comments are made.

He won't move out, I've got nowhere to go with family coming and H is not going to tell any of his family/friends what he is planning until right before he goes because he said last night that everyone will shun him, that no one will understand that he needs to go and explore and discover a new life. That they will all judge him to be mean to me and crazy to pack up and run away. My SIL knows sitch from me (she caught me at a very low moment) and she already feels abandoned. Than late last night H actually said well, you know, it might not work out and than he would come back and beg forgiveness. I know DB says to say goodbye, wish him well, and tell him you will miss him. In DB you want to keep the door open, but man is that healthy in my particular case.

I feel just crazy inside, I told him it was so unfair for him to not tell anyone what is happening and to make me carry the burden alone, he obviously just does not care.

I know I will make it through this, but no longer sure I want my marriage to survive...

Anyone have success at this stage?

Thanks,
Michele

M 42
H 41
M 16 yrs.
Together 20 yrs.
No kids, 1 cat
Bomb 5.16.09
D papers in my lap

Hi Chel! So sorry you're having such a bad time. I know how one's feelings can get hurt, where your stomach hurts, your heart beats painfully, and you just don't know what to do. Been there, done that, got the coffee mug.

Look, I did get my H back to a degree, but it's not the person I married. It's more like the best friend came back, but the H didn't. And, I think it was because I was too easy on him. Perhaps if I had been harder, stronger, less willing to accommodate him and his needs at that time ('cause now, none of my needs are being met except those of a friend).

So, here is my advice (and I am going according to my experience ---- your H may react differently) ---- tell him to go to Montreal, do whatever he wants, but you are going to take your time with the D no matter what he does. The papers can be sent there. Tell him he is a damned coward for not telling his family and quite frankly you are not interested him anymore as a husband (since he's not the same man you married), but you are still going to take your time, because this is not something one rushes. You will require at least 6 months (or whatever time you think is best) to settle things with your attorney's assistance. If that doesn't fit in with his schedule then tough luck. You aren't here to wipe his feet on. Also, tell him that if he does go to Montreal and bites into any new flesh, then there will be no coming back ('cause you don't know what disease he would pick up), no friendship coming from you 'cause a friend doesn't cause this sort of pain.

Anyway, what I am trying to say here is you have to toughen up, don't let him see you cry, don't give in to his anger and manipulations, his little tantrums. Decide on what you're going to do and stay the course. I get the feeling that your H has had his way most of your M which is fine if it's benign and you're happy, but now is not the time to let him pout and you go, "aw, I'm sorry, okay I'll do it." Tough love, I think is what it's called.

Take care.

C
I also was too easy on my XH
I tend to agree with Being me
the truth is they are going to go in most cases no matter what we do
we db and it sets the road for friendship which is most likely what most of these MLCERS want..
that is ok. it keeps the door open, but usually H do not return
IN fact, Ive read we have to fully move on before they may think of return

I agree..get a good L
take your Time
get everything you need to get
let your H go

Once he moves out, you will be able to heal
the house will be quiwt and you can dediacte your energy to the grieving and healing process which takes time
after that is completed, you are
free
changed
reborn
and anything is possible
so hang on
the rewards you will get has nothing to do with your H returning or not
peace

BeingMe & Peace,

When I read your posts I just say to myself, so true, so right, yes that is exactly how I feel. Today the pain from the comments, actions/etc., is gone.

I have been spacing out so much lately just trying to picture my life alone or H staying or H coming back. And, at this point to just be alone for a little while would be a welcome luxury. Right now I don't want H to stay because so much has been said, done, emotions/pain is raw. No doubt both yourself and Peace have been there done that...

Both you and Peace raised very good points. Peace raised the issue of results of our DB'ing, that it really kind of allows the H to know we will be there if nothing else - as friends. I, myself, am totally starting to question this whole DB in and of itself after reading several posts. I do believe DB in general is good, it certainly makes you feel as though you are not alone, it certainly gives you hope your marriage can survive and it does tell you to take care of yourself, change things about yourself, etc. These are all positives. However, at a certain point, if DB'ing has not produced results and the spouse continues to exhibit behavior that is inappropriate in a marriage, talk D, threaten to leave, etc. do we just allow them to have their affair, run away and seek out their lost youth? Or, do we say "look this is inappropriate behavior, I have done everything possible within reason to reach out, admit my faults, be supportive and to let you know I would like the marriage to work; however, up until this point you have done absolutely nothing positive to improve any aspects of our marriage and frankly your behaviors/actions are totally hurtful, inappropriate and unacceptable". I don't know the answer but I feel like labeling the spouse as MLC almost gives them license to behave this way. It certainly helps for this group to understand the behaviors and recognize them but as my Telephone Counselor once said when I was telling her I thought my H was in MLC, she just said it doesn't really matter. She later on did indicate that yes, H seemed to be exhibiting these behaviors, but I keep going back to that statement am I treating H with kid gloves because I feel sorry he is going through MLC and would like to be supportive if he does crash and burn and want to come back? Does labeling them MLC somehow give them an illness where we feel the need to take care of them or allow them to act in such a manner? At some point, I just feel like hey, many women would just have drawn a line in the sand said get out! Again, don't know the answer and maybe that would damage any ability for them to come home.

I just get to the point where I start to think why do women have to be so strong, and why do these white males get by with so much inappropriate behavior and forgiven? Don't get me wrong I love my H very much and for the majority of our marriage have been very happy. I also know marriages can survive OW and can come back together and am hoping myself that is the end result; however, knowing in advance it may take years and all the extra work that is required of us to make this happen is it reasonable and really in our best interest?

Sorry, rambling as thoughts pop in and out. Just questions I have and no doubt you both have probably thought about.

I had hoped BeingMe your camping trip had produced a more intimate exchange with your H and I can understand how you are anxious for that part of your marriage to be back. You are also correct when you commented I have been, well I'll just say it, mothering of my H. I am guilty of being the one everyone can depend on, a caring/nurturer. And, I am basically comfortable with that role as long as someone doesn't take advantage of my kindness and laid back approach to life. But H is and has been and I believe it contributed to getting to this juncture in our marriage. I honestly think I would have been better off months ago to give an ultimatum. Again, will never know or if I did and that went badly I would be sorry I handles it that way. I just feel H knows how forgiving and loving I am and cannot really understand the consequences if he leaves. He probably feels like I will be there waiting so what the heck I'll go and do what I want and if it doesn't work than Chel will take me back.

So ladies, advice do I give an ultimatum (leave without D or go to 2-day counseling session with Michelle in Boulder);or, do I continue not to show him how upset he makes me, don't bring up any R or D talk unless H brings up? This also includes me making plans for my future on my own.

And, you both may have already answered this question but I am a slow learner and unbelievably still looking for hope. But, to-date have never given H an ultimatum as with DB this has not been advised.

Slowing going dark,
Chel

M 42
H 41
M 16 yrs.
Together 20 yrs.
Bomb 5/16/09
Working on financial D papers

No looking back or having regrets because we cannot change anything, no sense beating ourselves up.

So, at this juncture I have an appt. with potential attorney on Friday and I have the financial paperwork 75% complete and if I feel comfortable with the attorney I will retain her and give her the financial paperwork to review on my behalf. In the meantime, my H figured out we could do D paperwork ourselves. I had told him repeatedly we could D without attorneys at all; because H was adamant we only needed one attorney (of course the one H picked for himself). H has put that information in the pile of D paperwork without saying anythings but it was clearly added to the pile and no doubt he is aware I've seen them.

So, now my current issue is whether I just confront this head on or continue to dance around any R or D talk as long as I can and just continue to make plans for my future without H?
Half of me wants to sit down tonight and say the following:
Look, you have put money down on an apt. in Montreal, you obviously want a D and you will not agree to any counseling and for all purposes are done with this marriage. So, here is the deal - if you want to D without attorneys than you are going to do the D filing, etc. I will complete information where required and will sign without dragging this out; or, if we go the other route we will both retain our own attorneys. My big concern is our joint mutual funds and any future tax consequences that is why I would be in favor of attorney route. Also, this means that any wifely duties I may have been doing up and until this time is over. There will be no meals, no sleeping together, no grocery shopping, etc. for your benefit. So, if you would like to get going now, as BeingMe mentioned let H go to Montreal and worry about D later because there is no way this will resolved wrapped up before his target leave date of late August. Also, if H has intention of still changing his mind he would need to agree to the 2 day Therapy session in Boulder with Michelle Weiner-Davis. H needs to know when he goes I will be considering this a loss, will grieve and than will have to get on with a life alone. I will have to get a new job, a new place to live and new friends, etc. I would indicate I would not ignore him if he did contact me and if there were every any chance he had made a mistake, wanted to come back and I was in agreement with that, he would have to make the appointment with Michelle in Boulder first and we would have to date, start all over again.

I think an ultimatum would be fine, as long as you mean it. Also, be prepared for the anger, but just stay strong and laugh it off.

WAS's think we are so ridiculous when we dare to stand up for ourselves. Nevermind that their demands are so reasonable.....

Hi Chel!

No ultimatum, until he starts getting nasty, and bringing up D talk again. You tried everything you knew to save your M, and that is so commendable. DBing says, though, that if something isn't working then try something else. Pointless doing the same thing over and over without results. I think if your H is in MLC then he will not heal or come back until he has 'crashed and burned' ---- he will have to go through the process. But, if this is just him spouting off, just bored and needing a 'something' different, then I say call his bluff. If he brings up D and leaving, walk to the door, open it and tell him he's welcome to use this facility anytime. You're done with this emotional blackmail so if he wants out then "get out now." This toughness could be a 180 for you since I think you are more the gentler kind of person who doesn't want to hurt his feelings. He may go or he may stay and work it out. But, how long can you last on this emotional rollercoaster? Whatever you're doing isn't working, it seems, so try something else. Oh, and definitely, cut off all wifely 'duties' --- if he doesn't even feel guilty about ML when he knows he's leaving (my H felt very guilty about this) then he has really detached himself from you. I'm sorry to say it, but I think he's just using your body until it's replaced with another one. This could also be another 180 for you.

Definitely, make plans for your future without him --- get excited about it. I did and I was almost sorry when my H begged me to come back. There's a big, wide world out there just waiting to be explored and not having to deal with your H's issues would be a huge burden off your shoulders. Perhaps you should go back to Colorado (I get the impression that's your home state) where you have family? (That's if you have to get another job.) If he wants you back then he's going to have to work for it, and that will mean he would have to live where you live, if it comes to that.

Feel the pain or not, but don't let him see that anything he says or does has any affect. Because then he controls you, and he knows it. He's using your pain to manipulate you into giving him what he wants. I am so glad that you haven't given in to signing the papers yet. You see! You can be tough.

As for friendship --- if they're in MLC, they won't care about your being their friend. Pointless even mentioning it. Half of what he says or you say will have been forgotten. My H said some really awful things that he has no memory of, and denies saying it, that, "I would never have said something like that to you." There you go --- how do you argue against that, 'eh?

If he hits bottom, then he will come out and see if you're still there. If this is not MLC, then I think one has to wait awhile before mentioning your always being a friend, etc., at least until he has made up his mind what he's going to do and actually does it. Then, as a last resort, you can tell him 'the door may not be open, but I'll leave a crack in the window, but I don't know how long that window will remain open. I will, however, always care for you as a friend.' If you are still saying ILU --- stop!

If/when it comes to this point, I suggest you say as little as possible --- keep it as succinct as possible and firmly state your words so that he can have no question that you mean what you say.

Here is a statement you could follow if he starts up with the demands for D papers, etc., being mean, demanding, etc.:

Put your hand up like a policeman stopping a car, and say, "stop, enough, I will speak now." Point to the front door and say, "you are free, anytime, to walk right out that door. No-one is holding you back. I will take my time with D and will not be bullied into anything. I am done with this emotional blackmail and deem my wifely duties, therefore, are no longer required since you want to end the M. So, if you're not leaving immediately, then sleep in another bed, do your own laundry, make your own meals (and anything else you do for him). I will be moving on with my life and I know that no matter what, I will be okay. Do you understand what I am saying? (If he answers in the affirmative) Good, so I feel there is nothing more to discuss unless it's to say good-bye or you are willing to work on the M --- those are your two options right now, and I don't want to hear anything else coming out of your mouth." Turn around and walk away to your bedroom or somewhere private, and cry, breath, swear, punch the pillows (or all of the above). IMHO, it's time for you to take control of your life and this sitch. He's been pulling the strings for long enough.

Well, this is my opinion, anyway. Stay strong and remember that this too shall pass. I know how hard this will be. For instance, I could barely sleep when my H was in the other bedroom. I just wanted him to rush into mine and say that it was all a mistake, yadda yadda. You know, all that romantic stuff, but it didn't happen --- not for quite a long time. I sure cried a lot during those days. Everyone is different though, so you have to do what you are comfortable doing.

If nothing else, the message is --- do something different.

Take care.

Awesome post beingme.
I wish so much I had found this site when my xh was bullying me into a quick divorce. He promised me everything under the sun to just get it over with and I fell into his trap. I get NOTHING from him but a mean look when passing.

ow I really like your idea being me
I dont have the answers but
all I know is that all my niceness and waiting and availability got me nothing but D
maybe we have nothing to lose to giving him the choice like BMe said
wither work on thwe M or walk now or soon and no other talk
definitely see the L
take your time
cover everything legally
and if your H goes to Montreal and you are still Leagaaly M
check on this
credit cards
bank accounts ect
they all seem to rack up lots of debt
so cover yourslef
and I agree let him walk
peace

Chel, come to Colorado anytime and you have a place to stay! I live in Broomfield and my h and I went to Michele one time. He acted like he was going to try to work on our marriage and then he moved out within a month. Would love to meet you!

Hey Golfgirl1,

Thanks for the invite! My dad lives in Denver, that is why I thought it may be possible to get my husband to Boulder; however, he has zero interest to-date. My H won't agree to anything I suggest to save our marriage. He wants a D but still has not filed and still will not leave. I am doing a 180 of trying to ignore him and not interact but I have to tell you it is very difficult. After I met my potential attorney on Friday afternoon H was just sweet as pie. I told H when I got home okay here is my attorney's business card so go ahead and file with your attorney. H said he was having second thoughts and actually seemed human. Of course, after a couple of days I was assured that second thoughts only pertained to difficulty of next step on his part but in no way indicated he was changing his mind. So here we go, have family coming for 10 days starting August 2nd and H said he won't file during the visit as to not upset me but was very angry that my family was ruining his timeline of wanting to leave end of August.

Anyway, I am still on the roller coaster ride of emotions and doing my best to distance myself even while living and working with H. I must admit I am doing a horrible job of this because I am so confused by mood swings that it is extremely difficult to be cold/unavailable.

I, however, at some point will be visiting Denver or possibly will move there if this whole fiasco ever ends in D. I will let you know when I visit next and also would enjoy meeting and talking with you.

Take care,
Michele

M 42
H 41
M 16 yrs.
Together 20 yrs.
Bomb 5/16/09
D papers sitting on table ready for filing, but H has taken no action

Hi Chel! I am glad that you are being more assertive with your H. You have nothing to lose at this point, I think. Yes, the rollercoaster ride ---- awful feeling, and that constant cement block in your stomach that won't allow you to eat (in my experience, anyway).

Take care of you and be at peace knowing that you are doing all you can to work on your M.

Well I am back and quite discouraged. I tried ignoring H before my family arrived and H still never talked R nor did H do anything positive or negative. While family was here H participated for the most part and actually seemed to enjoy being with most of my family. After family left last week I was so exhausted. Our wedding anniversary occurred over family trip and H simply ignored it which really hurt but had my cry alone and had enough family around to keep spirits up. After they left I was at an all time low, no more distractions just back to the roller coaster ride. At end of last week H put his arms around me and wondered if we could have sex. I told him that if he was leaving me no. I asked when he was going to leave and he said he did not know and asked if we could still make it together after everything he has said and done. I told I had the capacity for forgiveness but we had a lot of work to do and would not be turning back to the marriage we had - it would have to be new. H said nothing. In fact, H told me he wished he could stay but H thinks I deserve better and too much has transpired so he should go; however, he doesn't want to do the work involved to leave. So again, I am twisting in the wind. Again, I let myself have hope and thought being he was staying and had not brought up D he may have changed his mind. However, I was wrong and could not help myself but cry in front of H and tell him how much it hurt. He actually asked if it did not work out for him if he could come back. I asked him how could he say that when he won't even go to one counseling session but yet I should still be open to reconciliation. I told him I thought that was unfair but could not predict the future.

He is going to go isn't he, why the torture...he is making it so difficult and awful that we will have nothing left. And, H won't leave!

Help,

Michele
M 42
H 41
Married 16 years
Together 20 yrs.
No kids
D papers still on table
Bomb dropped 5/16/09

Michelle
I am so sorry for your pain
I understand how hard it is
how hard you are trying
and how painful it is
seems like your H is still on the fence and undecided

Im not sure if you have tried the tough love approach
was that you?
and then your H said he wasnt sure he wanted D?
Is he willing to go to therapy?
I dont know what to tell you
just follow your gut
you can go to therapy alone
take care of yourself
you are doing an amazing job of keeping it together
peace

Hi Chel! I am so glad you had a good time with your family. Your H is a dufus for ignoring your anniversary, but I guess it was to be expected given the circumstances.

He is also lazy and an emotional coward. Does this sound like the H you had before? You've said before that you have enabled him. This is his MO. He is not going to change for you. He wants you to do all the work of dismantling a M you want to save. He wants sex even though he is leaving. He won't go to counselling. He gives you hope with wondering if you could forgive him, but then says no, he still wants a D. He is spinning you in the wind because he can. So, you have to stop the R talk. Stop the crying in front of him (I know you know this, but no harm in repeating).

Two things we know here ---- he says he wants to leave, yet he hasn't left. Say nothing until he has his bags packed and is walking out the door. Then say, "goodbye". But, you know, I wonder if he has the guts to do it, for real. I think he's hoping you'll do it for him. So, do nothing, but continue with your life --- GAL activities, be pleasant but distant to him, act 'as if'. Do nothing to assist his departure or the D which you don't want.

In the middle of my sitch, I used to pray every morning in my car just before going into work. And, one day, a very clear word was said to me in my head. It was, "patience". I understood then, that I should be patient and wait this out. I think you should be too. I know how hard this is, but keep trying.

Take care.

Hey Being Me & Peace,

Thanks for your reply. I spoke with a DB telephone counselor and she indicated I needed at this point to possibly help him get his bags packed and on his way because his indecision is laziness. Again she reiterated to GAL and truly I am trying my best. She said to leave after work, not say anything and just try to do as many activities without H as I can. Again she said say nothing, no R talk, and if H asks why I am coming and going without saying anything I can just tell him that he has decided to leave me and that I am getting on with my life and that life does not include being/acting like his wife.

The weekends are just so difficult - on Sunday a.m. woke up and H was again laying next to me with tears in his eyes. He started to touch me and I flat out told him his mixed signals (tells me one thing, but is still here and still wants physical touch, etc) are more than I can bear and I cannot take it any longer. He indicated that he had not changed his mind and H said he wanted more than anyone for our marriage to work and for his mind to change but it won't. Again, H absolutely refuses to go to a counselor, H refuses anything I suggest. H says if we weren't able to fix our M on our own no one else will be able to help. H said he is not going to pour out his personal feelings to anyone. H also said that is the one thing he will probably regret the most, not talking to someone but yet refuses to do it. So I again politely asked him to go now but he won't. This weekend H told me he plans to leave at the end of September because now he has a supposed small job at the coop he is going to live at - some type of co-manager. Of course, I had not heard about that, but H claims he told me a couple of months ago; anyway, I did not bring up D. I tried not to get into any conversations but I honestly just feel sick to my stomach. There is no end...

Question, how did each of you handle H's leaving?

I know I need patience and I am trying to have that, plus GAL and still keep myself from throwing up. Just looking at his face makes me so sad, because H still wants to hang out with me as H has basically cut (I mean not communicating at all) with anyone here so I am it. H did mention enjoying the things we had done over the past few months and again reiterated why had I not been so fun before. H also said matter of fact that I am who I am and I am not a passionate person about anything. H indicated that I never jumped on top of him in the early a.m., never snuggled at night and was never intellectually passionate. Ouch!!!

H said the people in Montreal are all those things, H just hopes that he doesn't make a mistake and find he really craves the stability, kindness and love I give. At this point I am positive there must be another woman.

One last question. Isn't almost a reality that we need to be apart at this point. If there is no give and take and H has decided for both of us our M cannot be saved, than there is really nothing I can do, can I? I cannot think of anything so I am going to work on my resume and try and look for a place to live and try with all my might to live in the real world.

Again, I am basically at this point just regurgitating what I've said in the past but your comments really do keep me going...knowing I am not alone accounts for a lot.

I will just really miss H and my heart is broken.

Thanks for listening,
Michele

M 42
H 41
M 16 years
Togther 22 yrs.
Bomb 5/16/09
D papers drawn up not signed to-date

Quote:

H indicated that I never jumped on top of him in the early a.m., never snuggled at night and was never intellectually passionate.

Was he ever like that? Stability, kindness and love was good enough all the years you were married and now he wants something different. Did he give as good as he got? He wants you to change? What the heck is intellectually passionate, anyway? Definitely sounds like OW, I'm afraid. Sounds like an early R, where one would be jumping on top of one another and snuggling at night (which is weird for a man to want, the snuggling I mean, but oh well).

You were probably always fun --- he just didn't appreciate it before and now that there is a possible parting of the ways, he is seeing there is more to you then he realised. So, I very much agree with the DBC --- he is lazy and needs to face the world on his own. If he comes back and wants to go into counselling then you know he means it. If you lose him for good, then you know it was inevitable and at least you had control of your life by giving him his. Hope I make sense here. (The ol' "if you set a bird free, etc. .....)

My H never actually left the house before wanting a reconciliation. He was in another bedroom, however. So, I can't tell you how that felt. Ask yourself though ---- how much worse can you feel? Perhaps having him outside the house will give you some peace (I have heard other DBers mention this, that they felt better not having to deal with the constant emotions having them in the house).

Quote:

If there is no give and take and H has decided for both of us our M cannot be saved, than there is really nothing I can do, can I?

I get the impression from other posts of yours, that your H isn't much of a give and take person anyway. He has decided he wants to end the M, but he wants you to do the grunt work. He wants to go to Montreal, but either you have to drop him off at the border or his "friends" must come pick him up. He doesn't seem to be a very independent man? You could use this to your advantage if you wanted to, but then how will you truly know he's committed? Take the coaches advice and stick to it for as long as you can and then a bit more. By the end of September, some other idea or situation may present itself.

Just some thoughts. Take care and good luck!!!!

Sorry Chel, but I am stuck on this "intellectually passionate" phrase. It seems like such an oxymoronic thing to say. Intellectual implies cool, rational steadfast thinking. Whereas, passion is a type of frenzied excitement evoking images of unthinking desire. Makes no sense to me. The only way it does make sense is that it is a mechanical lust, driven by eroticism, rather than love and affection.

But, that's just me. Given the description above, I would not feel insulted in the least. This just shows the level of his confusion, further clarified by thinking he's told you things which he has not (rewriting history).

...continued ....

He follows on to say that, "the people in Montreal are all those things." What! He knows that the other men are also experiencing their women jumping on them in the middle of the night and snuggling, whilst being "intellectually passionate?" I thing "people" in Montreal = OW. And, perhaps he had a bit of a titillating experience then he returns home thinking he has found his "soul mate" (they all call them that) and finds himself unsure what to do. Let's face it, all this so-called passion takes a lot of work and effort, and we all know he is a somewhat lazy person, emotionally and romantically. So .... you know where I'm going with this, I'm sure.

Take heart, you know your H better than he knows himself. Get through the pain, and see this for what it is. Try and look at it as objectively as possible. Hard, I know, but try.

Odds are, he's not moving to Canada any time soon or ever. That's my opinion, if I were a gambler. He keeps moving the date and making some excuse or another to not leave.

Sorry, for all the posts, but I keep thinking about it and realising stuff.

Chel
from the many posts Ive read here on this site, it does seem like the majority of WAS do eventually move out
some never leave but most do go
I remember my XH stayed in the house 4 months post bomb
I also never thought he would go
he talked about it
but
my xh was never intimate with me again after bomb
he slept on the couch and stayed out every night till 2am or later
there was OW..at that point I wasnt sure as my xh always seemed stable and comitted to M
When he did finally leave, he just packed some plastic bags of clothes and left
I think he said he wasnt coming back and sleeping at Bill's House

My house became very peacful
the energy shifted from tension, anxiety fear scare
to
Peace
I started being more available to kids and worked on healing m,uself
I meditated and journeled daily
I went to therapy weekly the whole time
MY xh never came home
He M ow and is now depressed and in debt
he is on prescription drugs-I would describe him as a mess
I am grateful we are D

Your H may get upo and leave one day whjen you least expect it
or he may chose to ride this out at home
the ones who never move out are more likely to reconcile later
so its your call what to do
If you can ride it out with him at home
or if you want to ride it out a part
It does seem from the boards and the MLC Reading that it is a real journey that takes time and ther eis no way to rush H thru the tunnel
try to take care of yourself
and you will know what to do
trust yourself
peace

Being Me & Peace,

You guys are awesome! I appreciate your analysis so much. I am a slow processor of information and have for the most part in my life needed to step back and look at things before making the next move. Whatever this "is" is no exception and on top of that my vision is clouded with love, pity and disbelief.

However, I am finally starting to process, with your help, these behaviors and what you each have experienced to understand what I am up against. There seems to be absolutely nothing more I can do for us so I really put my efforts into GAL'ing this week. I have been out twice this week and last night when I came home I can honestly say I genuinely had fun (couple glasses of wine helps). When I got home H immediately mentioned you look like you had a good time and I replied, yes I did. I could tell H wanted to feed off my happiness and was trying in his own way to make me laugh, etc. For the first time though I really did not want to interact with H and just really wanted to get ready for bed and think about how nice the evening had gone. It just reinforces the lesson of being upbeat and not letting them see you cry, unhappy. For once H had no control over my emotions and it must have showed.

Today, H brought up Gov. Sanford again, as he was asked to resign by the Lieutenant Governor and refused. H had read about Gov. Sanford's wife how smart and capable she is; and, H started to wonder why these high profile women, Hillary Clinton, Silda Spitzer, Jenny Sanford, Elizabeth Edwards, etc. would stand by their man. I really did not want to go there, but I stated matter of fact maybe they wanted their marriages to survive, maybe they had the capacity to forgive or maybe they were overachievers themselves and did not want to fail at marriage. I started to think, bingo, maybe I don't want to let go not just because of love but because of feeling like I failed. I did ask H though why he thought these guys did not do the right thing and divorce before the affair and why they did not D their wives? I told him I thought even though they cheated they still want stability, love, and companionship. They want to fool around and ask for forgiveness later. I could be totally wrong but it did strike me as odd H initiated this conversation.

It is close to another week of no D talk and I was sure something would come up as he had set his next deadline or leaving at the end of September. No D talk. We even went out to dinner the other night and it was nice, even laughed a couple of times. This whole thing just gets creepier and creepier and these last couple of days I am starting to feel that I perhaps may start detaching from him as it has just gone on too long.

I really feel it in my gut that there is an OW in Montreal; however, I don't think it is cut and dried - I feel as though OW might not be totally free, even though she may be a free spirit. Could be completely wrong on that issue altogether but you both are correct there has got to be an OW or this drive in H to go could not be so strong.

I also agree that it would be good to be alone right now, but it won't happen on my terms of a small break from each other. H is adamant he wants to go and H is adamant that he wants to D before he goes. I already know H is lazy but I am starting to wonder if he is making excuses and doesn't want to give up control over me. I also wonder deep down inside if this wild/crazy/passionate affair is something H knows is just a fad and he would eventually regret leaving the love/stability/companionship?

So many questions, not enough answers but discussing these issues with both of you is so helpful.

My next hump is the weekend, I am drawn to stick around with H and know that will bring chaos and hurt; however, I just cannot seem to make other plans to avoid this cycle. Why? I can prevent this and I am going to try and dig deep to leave for the whole day with very little information of where I am going.

Any more thoughts or analysis are welcome. I was also trying to keep my mouth shut by writing H a letter. If I actually complete would it be okay to give him. At this point I know no R talk is going to result in anything positive, but in some ways I just feel I need to put everything down I am thinking so he can read and process alone without interruption or the subject being changed. Thoughts?

Thanks again girls,
Michele

M 42
H 41
M 16 years
Together 22 years
No kids
Bomb 5/16/09
D papers half complete but unsigned
H set date at end of Sept. to leave

Hi Chel! I don't think you should give H any letters. However, someone on this bb, kept letters she wrote in a binder and I would advise that. It would be a good way of sorting your thoughts out, venting your anger, etc. You could even "send" him birthday cards, V cards or anniversary cards if it's awkward at those times.

You are doing well. Love that you're GAL and being somewhat mysterious. Think about what the DBC said. Not sure if she is right in asking your H to leave, but I would definitely give it some serious thought.

Take care.

I agree..for now -dont give your H the letter
But write it
get everything out
edit it
dont give it to him
save it
you can always decide to give H a letter later

good job with no R talks
H was interested in your energy after you went out
be unpredictable
I would make plans
or figure out something to do this weekend at least part of the time
even if you go to a movie alone
volunteer somewhere
get involved at church
join a book club

or call a girl friend

I started taking dance lessons early on in the crises
and that gave me a social life
It wa fun and still is
I made friends danced every thursday and saturday
I became a decent dancer and I love it
never thought about dancing before this time in my life
met a guy adventually
but I didnt go for that reason..I went to get my mind off things and experience life as a single person because I was
be a little mysterious and continue as hard as it is
to be upbeat to H
smile at him
act forgiving no R talks
IF he has a ow in canada that may be better than having one around the corner
it could end before it gets to far
see if you can stick this out a little longer
and just practice taking care of yourself
You will know more later
and remember whatever H does, you will be ok
we have all survivied this and come out better, happier and nore enlightened
you will too
trust God and yourself
you are wise and capable
you were chosen to weather this because you can
peace
peace

Being Me & Peace,

I think I am totally losing either my sanity or my dignity. Was dreading upcoming weekend because H just hangs around so I was bound and determined no R this weekend so I just thought of a couple of things to do and would say how the day progressed as things needed to do at home. Anyway, H did not bring anything up this weekend. H asked if I wanted to go to the Minnesota State Fair, pretty big deal every year. So we went, and had a good time. It was fun trying different foods, people watching, etc. Today, the tension was there and we did activities apart and a couple of times I just thought he was going to say, I am going to sign D papers but he did not. We grilled out together for dinner and the tension rose back somewhat and right now I am on computer and H is visiting his mom so a good time to ask well-grounded individuals where do I go from here?

Deep down inside I am ready for any R talk but I am not going to be the one to do it...H was no doubt expecting this from me and he did not get this weekend.

What I am totally unsure of - is H just a cake eater and none of this makes any difference or could the tactic of being friendly and low key work? Should I continue including him in activities again or, is this foolish and should I stay with my tactic of GAL and being more aloof?

Brutally honest answers are welcome.

Take care,
Michele

M 42
H 41
M 16 yrs.
Together 22 yrs.
No Kids
Bomb 5/16/09
D papers in house/unsigned
Waiting to exhale!

Don't change what is working! Keep the aloofness, no R talk, and GAL. I don't think it was a problem attending the fair and having some fun as long as there was no R discussion. I feel you should keep your distance emotionally from him. Whatever is to happen, he should be the one who should be initiating it.

Quote:

Should I continue including him in activities again?

Definitely NOT.

Look, don't think of DBing as a tactic, a way to manipulate your H back. NO! It is a way of saving yourself, putting YOU first. Letting go of his issues and working on yours. He is an adult and must work out his own happiness on his own. Then, once you are whole, he may see that you are the greener grass. However, he too should be whole, so it is a lot of work. But, this is the GAL part. Finding you. See this as a huge opportunity of having the space to be you and not an enabler. The 'piecing it together' part comes so much later.

You are doing great in my opinion!

Chel
I think you did great this weekend
IT is hard--so hard

It is a tough call what to do
you guys had fun together, so that is good
maybe find a balance
having more gal time and finding fun things on your own and this taked time
making single girl friends to do stuff with
taking a class
ect
as far as including him
maybe if he initiates an activity you can go if you want
and just be light fun and upbeat
lookm and dress as best as you can
do something different buy some heals and a sexy dress and go out with a girl friend
and then continue to focus on you try Yoga
peace

Being Me & Peace,

You both are so right, take care of me first, make myself whole I know there is nothing I can do to help bring H back whatever happens he does need to do on his own.

I will GAL this week and not include H in activities, I knew this was wrong but could not stop myself.

Will get back on track thanks for the feedback.

Michele

M 42
H 41
M 16 yrs.
Together 22 yrs.
No kids
Bomb 5/16/09
D papers in home unsigned

We have all had this struggle, Chel. As you say, ya just have to get back on track. It is difficult when you love someone and you have fun and then the expectations are heightened. But, you have learned over and over that this means nothing to your H. So, I am so pleased that you will keep trying the GAL which will help you no matter what happens.

Have a good week.

I rarely chime in here any more but this sitch caught me and I think I am caught up. If you ask me he has been taking advantage of you and your hope. It may be to his advantage to slow things down. This is an international thing and visas are involved. There has to be an OW. But the most important thing I have heard is that you feel you might be losing your dignity. I will tell you from a similar experience that I chose myself in a very difficult emotional battle that could have killed me. Take care of yourself. This person is not thinking like you. If he has said the marriage is over most likely that is his truth. Believe it and face it. This does not mean you have to do anything.

Personally I waited for my x to file for divorce and it took a long time. Same old MLC plus international drama story. Wonder

Wonder,

Yeah, being H has said he was going to go months ago he basically has cut off all his social interactions here anyway and just kinda hangs out. H also complains, is negative and really tonight I could not keep quiet and just said a couple of times quit being such a negative creep and keep it to yourself. WOW!! Couldn't believe I said it but said it just matter of fact and went on to something else. The tension is so thick tonight you could cut it with a knife.

You are right he is done I can feel it and his depression keeps him doing nothing therefore he has hitched along with me probably out of boredom. H had said he could go to Montreal for 6 months as a visitor and would work on getting his citizenship there; however, maybe there is something to what you are saying.
His leave dates keeps changing supposedly now it is end of Sept.

Wow, it just takes so much guts to tell someone your marriage is done and than just keep hanging around and making life miserable. To be that self-absorbed is unfathomable to me after all these years together to be discounted really hurts.

This emotional battle feels like hell to me but it sounds like you had a battle royal.

If you would care to share more I would welcome your story and/or advice.

Thanks again for speaking out it was no doubt difficult.

Michele

M 42
H 41
M 16 yrs.
Together 22 yrs.
No Kids
Bomb 5/16/09
D papers in home unsigned

Being Me, Peace & Wonder,

Well, H just brought up R talk and said he wants to sign D papers tomorrow and he wants me to just use his attorney. Even though we have nothing complicated I said he could have his attorney contact mine and he blew a gasket. He said you are going to finally get back at me for how I treated you and hire an attorney to waste more money and to go after me. I told him nothing could be further from the truth I just felt I should have a representative for myself but would not contest, etc.

He was not happy. We made love this weekend and he is D'ing me, of which he responded. "Our love is so special that we will always be kind, loving and continue to talk with each other". And, I got the you'll be better off without me speech too.

I just went to bed and cried. I hate that he makes me feel vindictive, that hurt.

Chel, I hope you have had yourself tested for any sexually transmitted diseases, since you are continuing to ML with him. You just don't know what he might have been exposed to in Montreal. Just thought of that tonight ... several other women on these boards have done that just to keep themselves safe.

Also, unless he has skills that are needed in Canada, it is very unlikely that he will get a work permit, let alone citizenship. We are immigrants from another country, and are now citizens, so we have been through the procedure. It's a little easier for USA citizens since they get a different work visa, but not a whole lot because they still require needed skills.

Don't 'let him make' you do anything or feel any way that you know is untrue. You have control over your feelings, and you know you are not a vindictive person. This is just he being an a$$hole, and sucking you into being his enabler. He is manipulating you, and you shouldn't let him. But, I do know how difficult it is when you love someone and they express even the smallest kind word to you, and how much hope one pins onto that.

Maybe, it's time to take the D papers to your lawyer, and let him go over it. If it all looks okay, then sign them. You can always remarry later, if he ever comes back. I just feel that he needs to have his space to grow.

Just some thoughts.

Chel, how are you today? You are doing the right thing by having your own lawyer, you have to do that. It is very important.

What I think might be happening is this. These people meaning your husband and the ow are living in a fantasy land. You do not live there, and neither does the US or Canadian governments. And because he lives in this fantasy that all should have gone the way they wanted it to and has not he has to stick it out at home. He can't afford to live anywhere else right now. He may be depressed, but he may also be stuck and blaming you for his own mistakes and bad choices.

What I can say about my own experience is that I lived with my x for a while when he did not want me. It was hell on earth. I would not wish it on my worst enemy. Without going into the details I chose me. The hardest choice I ever had to make, to leave to person I loved most in the world to his own choice which was not me.

In my sitch though I had another home to go to. If you ask me, consult your lawyer, get a PSA, and get him out of there. This is a toxic situation for you. Wonder

Being Me, Peace & Wonder,

Well, H signed the D papers this afternoon and I am going to retain my attorney tomorrow. Had thought there was a small opening but that has closed. H is now trying to be my buddy, saying we can D as friends and we are different than others and H wants to live together until divorce is final and than he is going to leave for Montreal.

Being H is not going to leave, I am strongly thinking about moving out, possible to an extended stay hotel so I've got a small kitchen and a space to use computer, etc. To stop the direction of trying to save my marriage, trying to hope and to try and start my new life as positively as I can.

I am kind of ashamed but I do not have any really close friends so (with the exception of family and a couple of casual friends) I find myself for the first time facing life utterly alone. Yes, there is some sense of excitement - on the other hand it so scary. I know all have been through and it can be done but darn I just cannot believe I'm at this point.

H is still in denial about all that is about to transpire and the dread and reality that I have been trying to keep at bay is HERE!!!

Words of encouragement or thoughts on me moving out until divorce is final would be greatly appreciated. I have no plans to drag out divorce and do not want ugliness but H just being so casual and non-plused by this is upsetting.

Do they understand the consequences? For the first time yesterday, after the lead up to D papers being signed, I could see the emotional/control abuse and I think H believes if he had to come back he could convince me to come back.

Anyway, things may not be as I had hoped but I will make it and again any advice (please hard cold truth) is more than needed.

Take care,
Michele

M 42
H 41
M 16 yrs.
Together 23 yrs.
D papers filed by H 9/13/09
One cat about to be in a single parent household, will never be able to rub enough...

Hi Chel! Sorry about all this, but it was expected, wasn't it!? Your H seems to be really unrealistic about how this will all play out. But, at this point, the ball is in your court.

Some questions you might like to ask yourself:

When will you sign, based on your attorneys advice?
Do you want to be friends post-D? Or, even now? (Some try for that, but usually only because there are kids involved, so your sitch is a tad different.)
Given all that's happened, would you give him another chance if he went off to Montreal and found the grass wasn't greener on the other side?
If you moved out, how would you feel if he had his possible OW come for a visit and stay in your apartment?
Being friendly is not being friends ---- always be aware of this because the way your H treated you, is not being a friend. So, just because he smiles at you and there's less stress, does not mean it is a true friendship.

I hope you are able to detach and move on because I think that would, ultimately, be the best thing for you. If he, one day, comes out of the fog, you could re-assess, but until then, hanging on to what may be a fantasy hope will not do you any good. Work on you, GAL, figure what is best for you, not him.

Good luck!

Chel
The WASA/MLCER definitely wants to be friends at least in the beginning
to ease the guilt
Later in the crises after D and when they crash, they are nastier
at the beginning they think it will all be great..leaving and starting new life with usually a very sick, needy OW
rarelt do they seem to pick enlightened partners to grow with
they decend to what appears like a living hell
at least mine did
friendly and cordial is probably all that is needed at this point since D is looming and H is leaving
Do whatever you can to focus on you eat, exercise, pray, rest
freinds will come
there is a whole new world out there and It takes time b/c many of us LOST ourselves in our M
othwer D women are usually looking to be a freind and do fun stuff together
I have had more fun this past year than I think in my whole M life
first take the time to care for yourself, couseling, and healing
and at the same time starting over
it will be OK
peace

Being Me & Peace,

As usual you've given me good advice and strength. I retained my attorney yesterday and my H said he could not believe I had done that and in turn H felt like I had hurt him deeply and proved that I did not trust him. H said he would rather kill himself than for me to think that he would do anything but split everything right down the middle. In fact, he said that our potential for reconciliation in the future would be in jeopardy and I just asked if he was threatening me if I kept my attorney and he said yes.

This is just one more dagger thrown my way and if I continue I am going to have to live with the short term consequences of no more communication and for him to vilify me even when I know I am doing the right thing for myself. The sad part is I really had hoped there would be a small opening for that potential but bullying me into going along with him doesn't seem right.

Even if I moved out right now, he will not, I am going to have to work with him during the day...very, very torn.

Is this crazy talk or should I just let him file with his attorney and go along with it to just get this over with or to hope that he changes his mind? If I keep my attorney no doubt H will use that against me, in the short-term, to say that I must not want any chance of reconciliation.

Wow, it had not been up until the last couple of days that I realized how much H had controlled the situation and how crazy he went by me going out and talking to the attorney. I witnessed how much it bothered him that I did something that threatened his hold. That personally felt good but made me feel bad that he has had such a grip on me over these many months. I started thinking there was a fine line between DB'ing and self-respect and I had crossed that line.

That is my dilemna and will have to reach a definitive answer within the next couple of days and live with the consequences either way.

Any advice on how to handle H in this situation and still keep my cool? Communicating with them in this state of MLC is pretty much impossible.

Thanks for listening,
Michele

M 42
H 41
M 16 yrs.
Together 23 yrs.
D papers filed 9/14
What is normal?

chel
This is my experience with MLCer xh and D
this is my opinion
please you will have to read this and then make your own choices:

The mlcer does not want Wife to get an attorney ot to fight back in any way
they want to be in control and want to think we will be waiting forever as they explore their new R with OW
My xh kept everything a secreat, secret credit cards, gaMBLING. OW
they cant be trusted.
when my xh saw I retained a L far superior in intelligence and power to his , he freaked out
thats when the problems with us began..he took it out on the kids
they dont like boundries they are teens
I say keep the attorney and let H spin
he is leaving either way
this will not stop him if he wants to try to Reconcile
this is a legal business deal and 2 L are needed one to protect Your and one to protect him
I say get everything written as you want it and let him go
He is threatening you because he wants everythjing to go his way
but in reality everything will not go his way and he will destruct more and more
he will take you down with him if you let him
save yourself
peace

Chel, I am sorry I didn't see this sooner and I do not have a lot of time right this moment for all the niceties of communication. Your husband was being nice to you so that things would go his way, it was his best shot. You are seeing now the reality of how he will behave. My advice is under no circumstances should you go through a divorce without your own legal counsel. You cannot trust this person, you cannot predict that he will think what the law actually says you deserve is fair! You don't have to tell him all this. All you have to do is retain your own lawyer and tell him it's for the best for everyone, tell him it's in his best interest as well and leave it at that.

I don't think you should move out unless your attorney recommends it--there may be long term implications until you have a property settlement agreement in place and trust me that could take a while. I my case I was able to leave because we had two homes and there were no implications for me.

I will try to get back here later this evening but in the meantime I hope I have given you some information that is helpful. You are talking about financial impact here that will last the rest of your life. I wouldn't put that future in the hands of someone who has betrayed you so much already. Stay strong. Wonder

Michelle, I have a few more words. I truly feel for you being isolated with few friends at this time. I was in the same boat, in fact for a few months while I was trying to save my marriage I was in a different country and did not know a soul. It was horribly lonely, frankly the hell on earth you may be experiencing.

I managed by trying to get a life there, I found volunteer work in two places and just had to spill to strangers who seemed nice! When I got home I also was lonely, I had dedicated myself to my career which I did not have any more and had to make much better acquaintance with my neighbors and ask for help. For you it's different as your husband is still around the house and you have to be careful not to spill every piece of personal business to people who live around you.

But you do need an outlet for your feelings. Can you get a therapist to talk to weekly about this? I don't know your financial situation, there are church groups, divorce care, other things too, but if you can get someone in your area to help you in a clinical way it would be good.

I know you have no intention of dragging anything out. Neither did I. Be emotionally and mentally prepared that your husband could do so. He might not of course, but the way things have gone so far--he's going, he's not, etc makes me think he could try to manipulate the situation to meet his international visa and financial needs. I know my husband did that to me and it took three years from the time he filed to the time we got divorced and I never in any way tried to stop or hold up a single thing.

Find some support, it will be everywhere if you are open and ask, and take the high road. Keep your dignity, that is your strength in knowing when that boundary is crossed. Good luck, and if you have a good lawyer he or she will also be helpful. Wonder

Peace & Wonder,

You are so right on H's behaviors. I hired L on Monday of this past week and on Tuesday I fired L. My L indicated on Monday she would contact H's L and she did and H's L contacted him. Unbelievably, H had not been in contact with his L in quite some time as he could not even recall my H at first. My L also must have done more than simply introduce herself she gave the background of our sitch...this freaked my H out and he quickly indicated things would be very rocky and unpleasant from then on as I choose to hire a shark L. I was freaked out that my L had got into financials etc. so early on, when I left that day I was very hesitant but gave L approval to just touch base with H's L to let him know she was representing me. I needed to step back because we both live and work together and to be honest I don't want to get ugly and drag this out. I want my fair share half and H agreed. Actually now that I look back it may be to my advantage as all the balls are now in H's court and I can lean back and wait for him to pursue D. I am not naive however and will have an L look over anything I receive and won't sign anything until I absolutely know what is happening.

All week I have been going out and when I shaved my legs yesterday, H was wondering if I was seeing someone. I did not play into his controlling nature and just laughed it off and went out for the afternoon. I bought myself a computer so I can use it whenever I want and am hiding it in a storage so this is something that is just for me.

H seems to be off balance because I did not get upset per usual this weekend and am jut acting casual and GAL'ing.

H said he dreamed last night that he was sleeping in our first apartment after we were married and I was holding a gun to his head. Hmmm, would love to know what that means.

Well never know what to expect anymore except that H is adamant about leaving so I am just trying to focus on myself.

Do you leave any room for coming back when they finally leave or do you treat this as the end?

Thanks again for listening,
Michele

M 42
H 41
M 16 yrs.
Together 23 yrs.
Bomb 5/16/09
D papers in motion

Wonder,

I am really freaked out about the similarities of our situations. I have been meaning to ask how yours played out and how you are doing today. You had incredible strength and I understand how you said you were emotionally spent. I replied to both you and Peace about the L situation and how that is going. H is getting freaked out, crying one minute, lashing out the next. I bought myself a computer so I can head to the coffee shops and hook to free WIFI and just that has been freeing. H is freaking out about moving to another country, learning a new language, etc. H indicated he would work on getting his visa when he is physically there as you can visit for 6 months. I still don't know how the border crossing will go for him with his stuff, but not my problem.

I will take your advice and work on volunterring or taking some classes. That will be a good start to meeting people.

How did you handle the goodbye when he finally left? Did you leave any doors open? Did H contact you when gone?

It broke my heart to hear how isolated you were, and how your H took advantage of that situation.

My H is bound and determined that I keep the job we share and has indicated when he goes he won't be taking all his stuff. He said I can throw or give to his sister. I feel that by him making sure I stay at the job and keeping his stuff he is trying to keep the home firest burning for a return. Does this make sense?

Gotta go, but cannot tell you how much I value your words and life experience.

Take care,
Michele

M 42
H 41
M 16 yrs.
Together 23 yrs.
Bomb 5/16/09
D papers in motion
Trying to keep sanity

Gosh! Your H is such a control freak. And that dream ... he didn't have it ... he's just using the story to make you feel guilty.

I don't think you should leave any doors open for him if he wants to come back. He's going to have to ring and ring and ring at your door and earn his way back, I think. And why should he care about what job you have after he leaves? He really is very controlling.

Why should you be concerned about his move to another country --- all the ins and outs, learning a new language, etc? He is so clueless about how that would make you feel.

Good for you, buying the computer and going out. Awesome job. You took back control of your life.

Michelle, to make a long story short I am healthy and happy now. It was a long road, the ex had a baby with the Ow long before we were divorced and it was not fun.

What your lawyer did is what good lawyers do with each other. In my case the x's lawyer almost fired his client for lack of cooperation and he is the one who filed. Something to keep in mind. Wonder

Wonder,

Glad to hear you are healthy and happy, no doubt this is eventually possible but your road to it was HELL.

You are right about lawyers, I am sure my H's lawyer was shocked to hear what the real deal was and it will be interesting going forward...I know after reading the brief letter from H's attorney to him with questions that his L might be concerned; however, he did accept him as his client.

This was the first time H saw his plans in writing and the first time someone other than us heard what he plans to do and it probably did not come across as sound. I mean, if H is excited about his future than why doesn't he tell anyone? He is certainly in no hurry to tell our employer he is leaving, or his family, etc.

Again, thanks for sharing because there is no doubt one could go insane living in H's delusional world and it affects a persons psyche and health.

I am going for a general checkup today and contemplating asking about some anti-depressants or general referrals for counseling. The Divorce Busting counselors have been pretty good; however, I think it is important that you are face to face. I also am going to look into separation/divorce groups.

Take care,
Michele

M 42
H 41
M 16 yrs.
Together 23 yrs.
Bomb 5/16/09
D papers in progress

Being Me,

You are so right and continue to hit the nail on the head. The 'controlling' issue is becoming very apparent and no doubt has been a theme of our marriage. Feeling stupid but looking forward to change. H is consumed with making sure I stay at this job and H continually tells me that even though this is a package job for us that our employer would do anything to keep me here and would rework the job description so I could stay. H also is adamant that he will be bringing a few things with him when he goes, he doesn't plan any trailers/trucks, still just what he can take in a car. This may be a no-brainer moment for some but I am starting to believe he wants me to kind of hang around here and keep some of his stuff available in case this were not to work out for him. I know for sure he is not doing this for my benefit. I certainly may stay at present job if they will allow for a time (just because I don't think I can handle a new job and divorce stress at the same time); however, I do not intend to work/live here in the long term.

Of course, this continues to make no sense to me because all along I had indicated he should just go, separate, and find out what life would really be like before D, but he has absolutely refused that approach.

On the other hand, the drama of D talk this week sadly has in some ways me looking forward to the end, no matter what...I am exhausted and anxious to live!

Another note, saddened to read about John Edwards wife Elizabeth Edwards...and the hell she is going through publicly with stories about his OW. Why does she stay?

How are things going with you and your H? I hope you can have butterflies again...

Sorry all over the place today, my scattered mind cannot focus.

Thanks again for absolutely everything.
Michele

M 42
H 41
M 16 yrs.
Together 23 yrs.
Bomb 5/16/09
D papers in progress

I suspect that Elizabeth Edwards stays because she has terminal breast cancer, and that brings a different perspective to life. She loves her H, and for the time she has left, I think she is willing to just ignore the bad and live with her kids and H as best she can. I just lost a friend to terminal breast cancer and it she was such an inspiration to me. Terminal, of course, means there isn't much they can do for you except make you comfortable - at least, that's how I understand it.

I think you should let your H know (if the subject comes up) that your home is not a storage unit, and you will keep nothing of his --- he can leave it in a real storage unit. You will be divorced and moving on with your own life. Why would you want to be loaded with the remnants of the old life?

You are right --- it all doesn't make sense unless he is hoping to be able to slip right back into his old life and wife if it doesn't work out. Maybe some OW is insisting he be D'ed? It's all very weird. Don't you feel like there is a whole bunch of stuff that he's not telling you?

As for my H and I --- no butterflies yet, but we are good friends, and I regard him as family, if not a fully functioning H.

Take care.

Being Me,

That does make sense for Elizabeth. Boy, my heart just breaks to have this drug through public. I know my sister when dying of a brain tumor was the most courageous selfless person I have ever known and that is why I will get through this, no matter what.

I just want to move out but I will still have to come back everyday for work so right now I am toughing it out. I do have a bag packed in case I just need to leave and daily that becomes more of an option.

Yes, there is so much to H's life that I don't know and any bit or piece I can pick up on just seem to make it worse. I was going back to my e-mails and I found in February an e-mail from a counselor when I was trying to get us to counseling. This has been going on far too long. It was pointed out today that I maybe spending too much time on wondering what is happening, why it is happening and trying to keep our marriage together because I will feel like a failure. The main thing is "what am I going to do", even if H stayed he is not well and has abused his husband privilges.

I wish you the best and for you to know how special you are for sharing and listening.

Thanks,
Michele

Hey, you are completely on the right track but do not move out without legal counsel. Same with the job and his stuff if it has serious value. I do not know if he has a plan but you should have one. You are doing well. Take care of yourself. Wonder

Chel! How are you doing? Been thinking about you.

Being Me,

Hello. Thank you for thinking of me, I too have been thinking of you and just recently reading posts.

Don't know if good or bad but H is still here and D papers in progress, albeit slow. I'm doing my best to GAL, trying not to talk R and not to become a doormat. Trying to work towards acceptance.

The D paperwork slowed down when I told H I would not sign anymore paperwork unless he made sure I would be able to keep my job (we were hired as a twosome) and my home. H did not like the thought and huffed and puffed but has not yet spoke with our employer or given notice. It's been almost a month and papers still unsigned. H gave a leave date of Oct. 23rd after he announced for the umpteenth time these past few months that he was leaving, things had gone too far, he needed a change, no passion, etc. However, H only announced to me and had told no one else. Within the next 24 hours we got a call his brother from Florida was coming for a long weekend to celebrate their mother's 80th birthday, on none other than Oct. 23rd. H was angry and felt everyone was out to rob him of his happiness. Of course, never once did H ever say he would not be leaving and today is Oct. 23rd and he and his brother are over visiting their mother. It hurts, and is confusing.

My next horror is my dad, he had a very intense surgery and had suffered trauma preceding for a couple of years due to our horrible health insurance system. I have no choice but I am going to have to fly and visit him/help him next week.

And, our job is at the height of work overload and high stress demands.

Last but not least, H's sister told me today, H had mentioned to their mother we were having problems. My sister-in-law knows pretty much what is happening and frankly feels sorry for me because of the way her brother is behaving. She told me her mother was concerned and wondered if she knew anything. She downplayed it as it was their mother's upcoming birthday, visit with family and she is in assisted living. This is the first of anything my H has said to his family and he picks his frail mom. His sister is pissed and we both figured he was taking the wimpy way out by telling her and neither she nor I would confront him.

Anyway, we were given as a gift concert tickets for November 15th and H's face just fell. That led me to believe H has another departure date soon and is again not being honest.

H is really in a stage of feeling sorry for himself and he has felt he has stuck around too long after bomb, but he was just trying to help my transition, to help me with work, etc. I've been pretty good at ignoring that behavior.

I am taking adult ed classes and trying to shape my future, slowly, but I know this is the only thing in my life where I have control. His behavior is immature but he feels he is so smart.

So am kind of all over the place, detatching, denying, accepting, GALing, and trying not to be a doormat.

I would appreciate hearing about you and again your advice is always most welcome. I am running out of gas, laughing a lot so I don't cry and frankly the stress has caused some behaviors I don't particularly care for to rear their head. Trying to makde grass greener is something I have no ability to do anymore. H just always thinks when I am out I am meeting other men, how silly.

Anyway that is the long of it and again thanks for checking in on me.

Take care,
Michele
M 42
H 41
M 16 yrs.
Together 23 yrs.
Bomb 5/16/09
D papers in progress
To Stand or not to Stand

Next time he comes up with seeing other men, or a leaving date, why dontcha tell him he's becoming a real bore.

You are so strong. Keep it up.

chel
it seems like the journey takes so long
they say they are leaving seems like forever
most finally do..but ir takes time
your paptience will pay off for you and your changes
hang in theree
you seem like you are doing all the right things to move forward and taking care of yourssekf especially with D papers
peace

Being Me & Peace,

This is the last straw...

I've hit a major, major bump in the road and I am scared I may be going into a major depression.

I did go visit my dad in Colorado and had hoped the time apart would be conducive to something, anything...my trip to Colorado was very stressful would be impossible to elaborate. Anyway, on the way to the airport my H asks me out of the blue if my family had ever stayed at a good hotel near the airport? I said no. But, this question nagged me. Yes, I snooped in his notebook a couple of days before I left and found a completed application to take 3 of his bonsai trees to Montreal and date expected to leave the U.S. was November 17th. I did nothing with this information as I too do not approve of snooping but H had given a leave date of October 23rd and that came and went without so much as a word to me. So I just needed to know if H was planning another date without asking. H also had asked me a couple of days before I left if my ticket was around $220, which it was but I had never told him that so another oddity...anyway when I got to Colorado I focused on the trip and myself. However, H kept calling and saying I love you (had not said in a couple of months)...another oddity. On Friday, H called and said he was going to wrap up early in the office that afternoon and go for a walk, etc. By that time I had in my mind that possibly H was going to purchase a one-way ticket from Montreal to here by one of the friends and than he would rent a car and they would leave November 17th. I thought he was going to put them up in a hotel near airport. So, with that I assumed that H would probably be buying the plane ticket. These thoughts flooded my mind and only briefly thought of confronting him but thought better of this, did not want to push or back him in the corner. I just needed to decide what if another date for leaving would go past and than what would I do?

Well, it nagged me so much that I decided when I got back to check his credit card transactions to see if my suspicions of a purchased plane ticket was right...well I found something but it took a very big twist. There were 3 recent transactions on his card while I was gone, one was for $88 at a nice restaurant we've gone to for celebrations, the next was a charge of $93 at Comfort Inn Airport and the other for $44 at another favorite restaurant of ours. My heart was racing and I did not know what to do with the information. I absolutely did not know what course of action to take and so I pulled myself together this morning and stuffed it, I stuffed it with everything else and my emotional gas tank is at an all time low.

H never mentioned any relationship stuff today, neither did I, but he was very short with me. Now the first dinner and hotel were for Friday night, the second dinner was Saturday night (my plane came in at 10:00 pm and H was late to pick me up). He immediately kissed me out of the blue and wished me a Happy Anniversary, I said nothing I was just stunned. We met Halloween 1986 and have been together ever since. As the day has worn on H told me the cat had thrown up earlier in the day on Saturday and he had to wash the bedding, if the dinner charge was on Saturday does that mean a stranger was in my home???

I just really need help!!! I know this incident has absolutely nothing to do with Montreal and I know sex is very important in his life, so did he feel as though he needed a treat for himself or is this something he is going to try out instead so there is not so much work, as in leaving? I do know there were 15 voice mail messages from Friday afternoon and no doubt he is leaving me to clean up his mess because I take the office shift first in the morning.

I find myself still so much caring and even though angry I still love him and want us to remain a family; however, I know I have reached a crossroads on whether to stand or to quit my job and get out and find a new place to live. H will never go...

Any advice on how to proceed is critical at this juncture as I cannot hold onto this information long without it showing all across my face, it is almost impossible now to look him in the eye...what if there was a stranger in my home, with him at our favorite restaurants...how much do I turn a blind eye...

Do I confront him?

Michele
M 42
H 41
Married 16 yrs
Together 23 yrs.
D papers moving slowly
Gas tank is empty

Well, if you don't confront him, who will? How will you find out what is going on?

IM not sure
I heard you say you were depressed
I think counseling will be crucial for you
I cant tell you waht to do
only suggest to take care of yopur self
Listen to yourself

I know how painful it is
If he is with someone having sex and dinners
His leaving looming over your head

If you can keep it professional niot emaotional
and you want to ask him when he is leaving i see it as ok
if you can keep it professional
when my H left
I didnt know until the day after
he came back to see kids
and said he is staying at Bills house
(TRanslation living with OW, 26)
i only said I do not agree with your choice
Families need to work things out
he said nothing and left
there is nothing we can really do
ONLY
take care of the finances
the house
the credit cards
seperate everything
get the L in order
document
he may/will begin a large journey into debt many of them do

seek therapy to deal with the apin of this so you wont stuff it
if he does leave,,,there may be rel;ief for you as it was for me
no more concerns walking on eggshells
let him go
you will become everything you wanted
he may return later
you will heal and be happt agin
we all have passed thru this and many of the LBS can attest to this
peace

Damn! This sucks! I'm sorry to say this, but like everyone else's H here, yours also sucks in this time and place. Try not to be depressed; rather angry and proactive. This is not the time to give him anymore of yourself than you have already. If he slept with someone else in the bed where he made love to you, then I think (besides the fact that that is really low and a freaking insult to you in a long line of other insults) he needs to find out what it's like to be without you in that bed. No more 'nice Chel'. He has walked all over your feelings, scr*wed around with your head. He is going to do what he is going to do; you cannot control him. But, you can control you. Maybe, he is sending you a message --- he wants you to be the one to walk away? I don't know --- I've said before that your H is a coward (sorry, I know you love him, but this is my opinion, and the man you loved is not present anymore), but he does seem to hit you with one thing after another. He blames everyone for his issues except himself. I can't help but think there is another person guiding him at this time, influencing him to do things that, maybe, he wouldn't normally do.

Peacetoday gave good advice in that you should protect yourself financially and find a therapist to unload all this stuff onto --- someone with a face.

What I would do, if it were me? Place the bed outside, and change the locks. And start looking for another job (back in CO would be a good choice, far from his possible MLC). Take half the money out of the accounts and put it in your own personal one. If you can, get out of being accountable for any of his credit card spending. But, that's me. To me, he has run out of opportunities for hurting you --- don't let him carry on doing it. He has to go on his own personal journey, wherever that leads (and if this is MLC, it will be dark places and it's best if you weren't there then), and you on yours where you have control over your own life. Perhaps, down the line, your journeys may come together again, when he has sorted out his head. Where he can find out what it's like to live his life without depending on you and others in his family. Believe me, as Dr Phil says, if the OW will do it with him, they'll do it to them.

Anyway, this is my humble opinion. I hope whatever happens, that it is a soft landing for you. You deserve better than this. Take care of yourself first now.

To sum up:
Detach and get legal counsel
Detach and get personal counselling
Detach and protect yourself financially
Detach and get some personal boundaries in place

Peace, Being Me, Lotus,

Thanks girls! Your responses made sense and give me strength.

I am going to approach this with as much calm and class as I can muster, I am going to get both legal and personal counseling. In the meantime I am preparing to leave and plan on if I can remain calm to simply ask H if there is something he would like to tell me and I will assume the answer will be no. So I will ask if he had someone in our condo while I was gone...will let things fall where they may and even if he says no, the feeling I've got in my gut is just too strong.

I am checking out as soon as I can and focus on myself, I am going to start driving this ship...and stand now for me and me only.

Just wish I could buy you all a nice drink with a tiny umbrella in it...

Cannot again express my gratitude for the wonderful support you've provided and you know I'll be back for more. Hope to be able to be there for you guys someday.

Could not still be standing if I did not get this awesome support.

Take care and I'll let you know which road I'll travel next.

Michele
M 42
H 41
Married 16 yrs
Together 23 yrs
D papers slow to progress
Taking many deep breaths and trying to keep eyes focused forward

How are you, Michele? Just thinking about ya.

Happy Thanksgiving, Chel!

Hi BeingMe,

I hope you had a good Thanksgiving. It was really nice to see a quick note from you...the last couple of weeks have been not so great.

H made his plane ticket reservation for Dec. 9th and is headed to Montreal. Yesterday we went and had our signatures notarized on D settlement papers to be filed with court. H signed over title of the car to me and I've been doing my absolute best to detach and GAL. I've had some slip ups as we are unbelievably still living and working together. He also has not yet told his mom and sister he is leaving. Of course the drama queen picks the holidays but from reading some posts it appears this is a popular time. The countdown is on...I am not even sure if he will give the proper 2 weeks notice at work and I am dreading this upcoming week more than anything.

I've been very brief with my answers and have not initiated any R talk and told him many times "I'm sorry you feel that way", etc. Just trying to hold it all inside. My nephew is coming to stay for a week at the end of December so am focusing on the visit and over the weekend have put up some holiday decorations, tree, etc to make it festive for him as I know after Dec. 9th probably won't feel like doing much.

H has just turned a blind eye to anything and just blames everyone else and is putting all his hopes that this will make him happy. He hopes I can be happy one day too.

I been kind of at the point where there seems no other alternative to him leaving because he won't see a counselor, he won't give our marriage a try so just sitting around here together is not going to do any good. I believe he needs to take the journey it is just so difficult that it will be so far away. That makes it so permanent. However, I truly do need some alone time and no doubt there will be some relief not to walk on eggshells for awhile...we'll see.

I think of you off and on and it seems odd but at times we kind of feel like friends and can hang out once and awhile but that ugly, side of him frequents his personality now more often than not.

Take care and let me know how things are going in your world,
Michele

M 42
H 41
Together 23 yrs
M 16 yrs.
D papers signed 11/28/09
Date of Departure 12/9/09
Taking it 1 hr at a time

Oh Chel. Things have really moved along quite fast. Perhaps this is a good thing. I think you are right, that he needs to go on this journey to see if it will make him happy or not. He doesn't realise how different Canada (and particularly Quebec) is to middle America. I lived in St. Louis, and in the 3 cities across Canada (I am also an immigrant to Canada from overseas). It is a culture shock, and it has taken me years to integrate, and having my family here helped me, while he is on his own. Who knows how much greener the grass is on the other side? Quebec is extremely cold too and it rains a lot.

I am glad that you are leaving it up to him to inform people, like his boss, and family. Although, they may ask you why you didn't warn them --- be prepared to answer them.

Our Thanksgiving is in early October, but thanks for the good wishes. I have so much for which to be thankful.

I am also glad you will someone with you over Christmas. It gives you someone else to focus on.

Take care.

How did your Christmas go, Chel? Hope you had some fun with your young visitor.