Wow. I have never locked a thread before. You'd think that I would have early on, and by now just have one of those sporadic ones going.
Odd that I have not settled into anything by now.
I do think that this thread will be used to gain acceptance of the situation. Though it was said that my XH was moving towards something, I really don't think it is me. My instinct tells me that he was just too scared to tell me that it was over, so he strung me along because it makes his life easiest when we are friendly. Granted, I take responsibility for allowing it to happen, even though there were red flags. I wanted to see the postives. I was really banking on those darn things.
I am going to copy 2 posts from the old thread.
Still no word from XH. He did call son yesterday.
From BND:
Why do you ask the questions that keep pushing him away?
Why do you keep sabotaging things by your own hand?
I am sorry to say this but you are your own worst enemy.
IF you can not be still and can not keep your mouth shut then you will NOT have a future with this Man.
I am not trying to hurt your feelings, but your text messages are just plain stupid.
Sometimes it is best to go with the old adage....If you have nothing nice to say then don't say anything at all.
Forgiveness is the key to reconcilliation.
If you don't want to be with this Man again then go pitch black.
Cut off completely if you can't trust him, and want to move on with your life, but don't be a see-saw.
My last post from old thread:
OK, I have not contacted him. May not sound like a big deal, but for me it is. I usually back down and start to apologize by now...
I will continue to work on forgiving myself for my role in this, and reminding myself that I have done what I knew to do to get closer to him. It comforts me to know that there is part of him that really wants to be here, but the part that doesn't know how/doesn't want to do the work has won out.
I am thinking that I really blew a chance with him by cutting off contact (keep re-reading BND's post about if I want to lose this man to go pitch black), but I have sat back and allowed myself to get hurt for far too long.
I really don't know any other way to still keep hopes of reconciliation open--- unless I look the other way with his (maybe/maybe not) developing relationship. Now that it is really out there (Perhaps I shouldn't have asked the question?), I can't.
Of course I should have asked the question! I mean, anything I should be building would be upon a friendship first. And, friends shouldn't lie to one another.
Just wishing I wasn't here. 2 weeks ago at this time all was well. I can't believe how they have changed.
I really miss him. But, I won't contact.
Granted, I take responsibility for allowing it to happen, even though there were red flags.
Well of course you would, you take responsibility that isn't yours. : )
No it is a big deal, if it is different. It is actually huge.
I am thinking that I really blew a chance with him by cutting off contact (keep re-reading BND's post about if I want to lose this man to go pitch black), but I have sat back and allowed myself to get hurt for far too long.
C,
A question for you.
You wanted advice, BND and I said similar things...
I'm just curious why you picked no contact?
For the record BTW you had no contact before and he came back around...so I don't think you have blown anything.
First of all Mazol Tov on the locked thread!!!
Secondly, I don't think you guys know how to communicate with each other. It seems to me that because you don't trust him you immediately think the worst.
So, when he says something innocent, you instantly jump into defense mode and jump down his throat.
He knows your pattern of behavior and is also defensive.
Time to change the dance.
Hi guys.
First off, thank you again. You are keeping me grounded.
Yes, it is a fact we have a huge problem with communication, and you have summed it up very accurately. Short of counseling, I don't know how to fix it! I try, I really do. Believe it or not, I have gotten lots better. But yes, the trust thing is a huge problem for me, and yes, I assume the worst. And, he doesn't answer, yea,neigh,or otherwise, so I then assume that the words I have supplied are the right ones.
OK, so my last text to him was:
As long as you are in a relationship I cannot be your friend.
So...let's say that was a mistake. How do I undo it? Do I wait to hear from him? This is such a basic question...I feel dumb for asking it. But, I continually mess things up, so I feel it is best to now ask first.
Why did I go dark? I was hurt. Really, really hurt. I felt as if he was asking me to do for him (be there as a friend) while he did whatever he wanted to do. I hope that I would feel differently if things were not the way they have been (him leading me to belive that he was working on opening up to me and communicating better). It killed me to learn that he was still lying.
Sigh. I really am not good at this!!!
Pam
I don't think it was a mistake.
You have seen how this affects you, being his friend while he is with another woman.
You were honest.
Why undo that?
Boundary, and consequence all on him.
Granted, I take responsibility for allowing it to happen, even though there were red flags.
Well of course you would, you take responsibility that isn't yours. : )
OK, this was really funny. True, but funny all the same.
And now this is where I really show my uh, stupidity for lack of a better word...
(I hear my son in my head saying "Noob") ("Newbie" for those who are not gamers or do not have teenagers)
How in the world do I keep those boundaries and still have some kind of contact now? I mean, i do believe I screwed myself out of it. Which, I don't know is such a bad thing, since if nothing else this is a big 180 for me. I have never been able to stand silence (duh, obviously), so I would have backtracked by now. Or put out some kind of olive branch. Then things would resume to "normal" and we would go back to ignoring the big elephant in the room.
OK, I am wondering...
Did I really overthink this that much? Fact- he admitted to a "date" on Saturday (yet still said we'd do something when he got back from his trip). Fact- he said he got a ride to the airport. Since he offered no name, I assumed it was from the same person, which immediately made me think that the date was more than a date...it was more of a relationship. Believe me, my crazymaking mind had her sleeping over and staying all day until she had to drive him to the airport at about 3 or so.
Still odd to me that he texted me (according to the time the text came in) pretty much right after he got checked in.
I don't really think I made too much of this. Yeah, I supplied some details...but, even in its most innocent form this is NOT GOOD.
I guess I just wait and see what he does? Or doesn't do?
OK, so my last text to him was:
As long as you are in a relationship I cannot be your friend.
THAT was a boundary.
How in the world do I keep those boundaries and still have some kind of contact now? I mean, i do believe I screwed myself out of it.
You cannot have contact now if he is in another relationship, not any friendship contact. Which leaves business, bi tch, or booty-call contact.
You laid down the boundary, if you go back on it, you are a doormat, and he can walk all over you anytime you say you want or need something from him in the future. If you establish another boundary he knows it means nothing.
Screwed yourself out of it?
Nah...you stood up for yourself, boundaries are about getting your self esteem back, you remember what self esteem looks like right? : )
I guess I just wait and see what he does? Or doesn't do?
Kinnda. Right now since you haven't heard back form him you have your answer. Live that way, now if poo-poo head calls and says I want to be friends, you verify that he understood your boundary and move forward from there as friends. : )
OK,
just got a text from XH:
Hello. Are we going to split for the phone for (son)?
It is son's b-day this weekend. He wants a new cell phone, one that costs more than what we would normally spend on a b-day. It is definately not something that just one of us would give him (while the other bought other gifts).
Distance for me does not include joint gifts. I am tired of portraying this happy family that we are not.
My instinct is to just tell him that we can each give son half of the money in our own cards so that he can buy the phone himself.
BUT,
since my instincts, much like those of George Costanza's, are usually wrong...my plan is now to run things through here before I act. It seems that sometimes I seem really bitchy when it is not my intent. And, I tend to overexplain in my answers.
SO? Any input? It is a mundane thing, but I have learned my lesson to think before acting.
Joint gifts do not mean that you are portraying a happy family. It means that you are both contributing to a gift that your son wants.
What were you planning on giving your son for a gift? Does your h's request make sense or is it unreasonable?
If it's what YOU want to do then do it. If it isn't what YOU want then nicely let your h know that you have already purchased gifts for s, but thanks for asking.
Keep it simple!
OK, once again I will be honest here. It pains me, because I am such a complete and utter idiot. But, maybe all of my mistakes will help someone else eventually. 2X4 me all ya want, but you can do no worse than what I am doing to myself.
CMNM is NOT the name for me (Crazy Maker no more) as I fell right back into crazy making mode, full force.
Here's the deal:
I guess I obsessed for too long on all that was going on. Yes, I am divorced, and NO, I had no right to think any of the things I was thinking much less to act in the way I acted.
I was sitting here on my laptop, wondering what my XH was REALLY up to. I thought about the hotmail address that is attached to his IM account, and I wondered if I could get into it. Turns out I could. A simple password change is all it took.
I found several emails from a particular woman. He had nothing in his outbox. But, obviously there was something going on, as her emails (from March of last year up until this weekend- even though there were only 12 total) were full of professions of love, and signed with a nickname he had obviously given her.
The one in March of last year? Well, it was written only weeks after he sat me down and said he wanted to start fresh with me, with total honesty.
One in the fall? It was obvious he was sleeping with her. Even though he voluntarily told me he had dated someone but had NOT slept with her.
Another was sent at the time we were "dating" just in the last months.
Anyway, I read them and then had nothing to do but come clean. A simple text:
Your new password to your hotmail acc't is XXXXXXX. I am sorry. I had to know the truth.
Him: You are unbelievable. That was none of your business. Goodbye.
Still in full-on crazymaking mode, I called him. It went to voicemail, and I apologized for the dishonesty. I said that I had no excuses, other than I just wanted the truth once and for all. I asked him to please talk to me.
(I just wanted it all out there, so I can FINALLY get it thru my big head to move on already)
He texted me:
We can talk tomorrow.
Me: Why not now?
Him: Because I am too angry and too tired. I will be no good to you.
And, that's that.
I guess there is nothing to say tomorrow, is there? I suppose I could apologize more, but I don't need to hear the truth anymore. It is out there. Now that I have it, well, I wish I didn't. Of course I didn't want to see the things I did.
I wanted to believe him when he was telling me that he is working on himself, that he is no good to anyone the way that he is. I wanted to, but I knew better. You could say that I already knew something was up (the date night), but I guess I wanted to shock myself out of caring/holding on. I was always looking for that little ray of hope.
Anyway,
I guess I will see tomorrow how I feel, or if he even offers to talk. Is there anything to say? I feel so foolish and so regretful. I knew better.
No wonder he found someone else.
I let myself and my kids down. I don't think I have ever felt this low.
I let myself and my kids down. I don't think I have ever felt this low.
Is this the same CNMN that I have been reading for so long and admiring how strong she is? Are you kidding with this statement?
I wonder what you would say if I posted the same exact thing for you to read?
You know what, sometimes we have a feeling. Sometimes we verify that gut instinct. Sometimes our gut is verified. So is it a bigger let down to your kids that you snooped or would it be a bigger let down to your kids to reconcile within a web of deceit? Ultimately you and I both know that would have led to a second failure which would be devastating for you and your kids.
I want to remind you of something that will seem simplistic and maybe you will even say no shitt Ian.
You are a divorced woman who has moved on with her life. For goodness sakes why have you forgotten this. You know the drill here, allow him to pursue. Maintain your boundaries. Only do what you want to do and nothing more. You are an I not a we.
You are questioning things that should be second nature to you at this point. I for one know that in your mind they are second nature because you are quick and forthright in your posts to others regarding the exact same issues that you are trying to address. I could cut and paste this thread to mine if you would like and you can respond to yourself
Stand up CNMN, pick yourself up and quit wallowing in your own self pity here. This is not said to be heartless or not compassionate. It is said because it is what you need to do here. You are allowing yourself to fall back into a way of living that you suffered through for way to long to begin with.
He has lied and deceived you once again, how many strikes does he get? Talking tomorrow, I am not sure what good that does you. Seems to me that now that the cat is out of the bag, he is the one who has some talking to do. If you speak tomorrow it will be you apologizing for learning the truth and he will use it to deflect his lies and poor behavior. What does this accomplish for you?
You said you were sorry, do not apologize again. Do not call him. Let him call you and if he tries to bring up the snooping simply tell him you already apologized for that and you two can talk when he is ready to explain what you read. Other than that there is nothing to discuss. You have two obligations here, one being to only work on a relationship with someone if it is a healthy relationship for you. The other is to only work towards a reconciliation if it is in the best interest of your family. Lies and deceit are not what makes for a successful family.
Ian
Ian,
Thank You.
The first sentence nearly knocked me out of my chair. When I look at myself it is as someone who was too weak, too scared to say "if you don't want me, plenty of men will!" Somehow I got so stuck into believing that if he didn't want me there must be something so wrong that no one would. And, the truth is, i didn't want to want anyone else anyway. It would have meant giving up my dream of my family.
Thank you sincerely for the advice. You are right, I apologized and do not need to continue doing so. I know that he has a right to his life and it is no business of mine- I am angry with myself for wedging myself in there.
What is the point for him to explain what I read? Again, he owed me nothing. Believe me, I have been over it thousands of times. Yes, he never let go. Yes, we could say that he led me on with promises of learning to communicate, learning to let go of his old (and admittedly wrong) impressions of me, etc. But, still, there was no promise, no ring, no committment. Yes, I deserved honesty. It was the least he could have offered. He knew full well that it was always in my heart to start over and leave behind the mistakes of the past. If anything, that is what hurts me the most. He knew how I felt yet he strung me along. And, I do take responsibility for allowing it to happen. I thought that as long as he was doing it that there were some feelings there. He happily sat here- only 2 weeks ago tomorrow- and ate steak and told me how much he missed me. I am so angry!
3.5 years and I am still in the same f'ing spot. Is this where I finally grieve this? I feel sick to my stomach and just want to run away!
I know I have control over being the person I want to be. The person I want to be does not do stupid things like snoop. I wish I had a do-over on this whole day.
Thanks again, Ian. I have also read your threads, but never felt comfortable jumping in your well-established group. Your words have been a comfort to me on this really rough evening.
3.5 years and I am still in the same f'ing spot. Is this where I finally grieve this? I feel sick to my stomach and just want to run away!
Simplicity at it's finest. Yes, it is the time when you finally grieve this, allthough I believe you already have to a point.
Running away is not necessary, you are right where you belong. You will continue to be an independent woman and a mother. You need to remember that your life has moved on. Because you did not start dating others or fall in love does not mean that you have not moved forward with your life. Many people end relationships and take a very long time to find another one, it does not for one minute mean that they have been stagnant for that entire time.
What is the point for him to explain what I read? Again, he owed me nothing.
Let me tell you one thing, he owed you honesty. A man who ends a marriage and then begins the journey back must be held accountable for his behaviors. After all he knows the hurt and damage that was caused by the same behaviors so long ago. What he doesn't owe you is commitment, he hasn't done that. However honesty is owed. It is the same with any relationship and you know that. If your son was in high school and began dating his first girlfriend you would teach him to always be honest with her. To never try and deceive someone he is involved with right? It is no different for your ex husband, except that after what he has been through he should no better, shame on him.
You will be sad and hurt for a bit, knocked down from the clouds for a short time, but in the end you and I both know you will soar again and move on. You deserve better than what you have received.
I have also read your threads, but never felt comfortable jumping in your well-established group.
Never ever hesitate to post to me. I do not believe that anyones words around here fall on deaf ears. I cannot tell you how many times it has been a random poster that has brought the most clarity to me, and not for nothing, but how long has it been since I posted on one of your threads? What if I had decided not to share my views with you?
Take care of yourself CM....
Ian
Hey,
Well, I have a message that I wrote before you went snooping regarding your suspicions, etc...
-------
"I'm not sure why you call that crazymaking. Your guess at events sounds quite reasonable to me. A guy who is divorced and dating is extremely unlikely to be celibate.
Going dark and taking space for yourself is fine, it certainly will not make X forget you.
Unless you are at peace with friendship with X while he is seeing and sexing others, trying to be his friend probably isn't good for anyone.
Friendships don't have strings that try to control one's romantic life...
Quit focusing on what is going to trigger the "right" behavior in X. Focus on what makes for a good life for you now."
--------
So, all that pretty much stands.
I agree, you apologized, enough said. But quit snooping and don't try to excuse the snooping. It pretty much amounts to stalking at this point. He is your EX-husband. You are not in a committed, monogomous R with him. His private life is his business.
If he wants it to be otherwise, he will have to bring A LOT to the table, and like I said weeks ago, he has barely begun to be honest with you about a huge list of deep dark secrets.
As for talking it through with him, what is the point? You apologized, there really is nothing else to talk about unless he plans to meet your terms for an R or unless you decide you are OK being just friends. (Which, clearly you aren't. Friends don't stalk friends.)
If he wants to come clean, if he wants to try an exclusive romantic R with you, HE WILL MAKE THIS VERY CLEAR. If that is not where he is, then he will not be clear on it, precisely because it is not his intent.
P.S. Yes, I agree that he owed you honesty if he said that he was trying to reconcile with you and was not seeing other people or sleeping with them. It seems he has even been working on being more honest. He has, for instance, told you that he is dating and that he has deep dark secrets. He surely has not treated you well as a friend or as a romantic interest.
But this still does not mean the past lies are worth talking about. They are in the past. Unless the two of you choose friendship or a romantic R, there is no R right now in virtue of which the two of you need to work through those lies together.
Until and unless there is a relevant personal R between the two of you, it is pretty much your work to work through your pain on your own, and it whatever future Rs come your way (because the issues won't go away, you will work them out sometime with someone, or you'll be stuck). Same for him. But between the two of you, there is nothing to work out right now because there is not a personal R there right now.
Hi CMNM,
Just want to say I hope you're feeling a lil' better today.
(((Hugs)))
'Trust but verify'
You verified that he was not worth the trust.
Him: You are unbelievable. That was none of your business. Goodbye.
Another was sent at the time we were "dating" just in the last months.
The old ones, are just that old.
The newer one, thats a hammer blow.*
Ian and oldtimer are right C. Get your head on straight.
*You know him better than we do. In regard to my wife. The OM kept 'bugging' her. Her words. Kept calling kept knocking on her door. She would tell me when this happened, because I told if she wanted me to trust she had to, otherwise II would form my own conclusion if I found out without her telling me.
She also had cards, letters, cds and gifts, and she is not the most organized person, so they were randomly scattered in her stuff where I would find them...because I would look. I do not consider it snooping with you are piecing. It is verifying. I would also check her email and phone.
I told her I would be doing this, I told her this was part of rebuilding trust, I wanted to trust her but I didn't, I would in time as trust begets trust. I also told her that finding that crap hurt. And I started to make a small pile of it in her closet when I found it. To which she threw it out, eventually.
In her defense, most of it she forgot about. Except the CD's. There was some good music on there : ) But she did get rid of them, broke them in half in front of me.
In order to get through this my wife had to want to and she knew I would sructinize all her actions...and inactions. I knew that in some areas, I need NOT to jump to conclusions, to swallow some hurts, but to let her know what hurt. I had to bite my tongue at times for things that no longer mattered, old things old hurts old ways old pain.
Either one of us could have fallen off that razor's edge and taken our marriage with it.
C,
Him: You are unbelievable. That was none of your business. Goodbye.
He made it your business when he started 'dating' you again. When he started coming around and talking.
Your only failing in this (perhaps, because maybe you did warn him)was not warning him that you couldn't afford to trust but you wanted to rebuild that trust with him, and until such a day, you would be verifying that your trust was not misplaced or foolish.
C, Ian and oldtimer have it right with their advice to you. Part of your old support group if I am not mistaken, and they know you better than I. : )
Hi OT.
Well, I didn't get half the beating I expected.
Stalker huh? Well, I have had better moments, that is for sure. It was dumb. Beyond dumb. I have no excuses. I would take it back if I could- and no, not because of what was there.
Jack, you are right- I know him better than anyone here. Which is ridiculous to say, seeing I prove again and again that I don't know anything! What I do know is that he does not like himself very much. What I do know is that he does love me, in some way. I also know that I scare him (his words), and that he doesn't feel adequate around me (his words again).
What
you know is that I take responsibility for everything, so of course I have spent endless amounts of time trying to pump him up. He tells me he is not my equal intellectually (get up off the floor, when I am not being a complete dumbass I am actually a pretty smart chick). He is slow and methodical; I am quick. I am the girl you want on your trivial pursuit team...which, I might add is pretty useless in real life, but he seems to respect it greatly. I do think he is the smartest man I know, but he doesn't believe that. He thinks I am patronizing him when I say this.
What I also know is that it is easier for him to walk away than to do the work he needs to do. I admit, I am guilty of trying to save him from himself. I listened when he told me that he wakes up in the mornings and gets that awful feeling in his stomach when he thinks about what he has done to his life and family. I heard those things and just wanted so badly to help him. Yes, a mistake. A big one.
I need to read the rest of the replies, so I will post today's interaction in a sec. I need you guys, so I hope you are there.
Pam
OT, you said this:
Yes, I agree that he owed you honesty if he said that he was trying to reconcile with you and was not seeing other people or sleeping with them. It seems he has even been working on being more honest. He has, for instance, told you that he is dating and that he has deep dark secrets. He surely has not treated you well as a friend or as a romantic interest.
No, he has NOT been working on being more honest. He has simply talked about needing to, but there has been no action. And no, he did not tell me he was dating...his words to me were, "I have plans this weekend, how about when I get home from my trip?" I pushed it to get the "date" word out there. He wouldn't have told me, I guarantee you this. Why this is important for me to say- I don't know. But I am saying it, and maybe you all can find yet another flaw in my makeup that you can point out to me. That sounded really sarcastic; I assure you it was not meant in that way a bit. My first time thru here I was honest, but I did withhold. This time I am not. I am serious about changing my ways. It hurts, but I need to hear some things about myself to make this possible.
2gthr-
Thanks for the support. A simple sentence like the one you offered is much appreciated.
Ian-
You are right about jumping onto threads regardless. And I am very happy that you did so. Thank you again.
OK,
on to today.
Maybe there is nothing to discuss, but my sleepless night told me otherwise. I went back and forth about it--- let him bring it up...make the arrangements. I am telling you, I slept for all of an hour- I just prayed for some peace and for the voices in my head to stop.
Ultimately, I decided that I needed the closure. Chances were very good that he would not contact me, but would be here when I got back from my exercise class (a Monday ritual). I didn't want that.
So, I texted:
Good morning. I hope you slept better than I. May I come talk to you this afternoon? (Son) is supposed to go to your house tonight, and, well, I'd really like a chance to speak with you.
Him: What is it that you want to talk about?
Me: I just need an ending. May I have that?
Him: OK, what time?
Me: 12:30?
Him: I am in meetings, how about 3?
Me: OK, see you then.
About an hour later he called me. I was at work, but able to pick up the phone. I am sure he expected voicemail.
Him:
I got called into a work meeting and am on my way downtown (he primarily works from home). I am not going to be able to make it at 3.
Me: I would really like to talk to you.
Him: We can do it later. I can call you on my way home. Can I ask what you want to talk about?
Me: Well, I have already apologized and I hope you believe me when I say I know I was wrong. There is just so much unfinished between us, and I just want to be able to put some things to rest. This is not about me needing to yell at you.
Him: (Surprised) It's not?
Me: No. You have your own life and I need to understand that.
I do think that I understand why you do the things you do.
Him: (really surprised) You understand?
Me: Yes. I think that I do. Can I ask you one question?
Him: Sure
Me: When you told me you had plans before your trip, but that we would do something when you got back, did you mean it? Or were you just going to blow it off when it got closer?
Him: I meant it.
me: That may seem insignificant to you, but it was important for me to know that.
(side note: I just wanted to establish in my own head that I wasn't making things up...that he was sending very mixed messages.)
Him: I went on vacation to think. I had a lot of soul searching to do. (This then turned into a rant about work, and how they called him every single day, and how he hates his job more than I could ever understand.)
I said I was sorry.
That seemed to embarrass him, and he quickly told me that he was not telling me for my pity.
Me: It is not about pity. I know how hard you work and how badly you needed that vacation. I am sorry you didn't get that.
We talked for another minute or so, then he said he would call me on his way home. He asked about son going to his house (as I said, Xh always comes here on Mondays, but I ended that option when the dating came to light.) As I suspected, he was surprised that he was not coming over. He said he would talk to son. He said, "so you told him then?" I said not in so many words, actually that it was a family time that I was opting out of, and that I wanted him to still see his dad as often as possible, so he could drive over to his house.
2X4 ready? Good, you'll need it.
I then said that I would see him later. I told him that I missed him while he was gone, and that it was hard to not call or text.
He said that he was surprised to hear this, and then he sighed very loudly and said, "this is where I get into trouble. If I tell you how I was feeling you will run with it."
(meaning, he missed me too, and wanted to talk with me also)
I said that he didn't need to say anything.
He once again said he'd call on his way home. Then we hung up.
Can I be his ongoing friend? No. Do I want to go out as enemies? No.
So, that's where I am. No where....everywhere.....
People who aren't trying to be more honest don't agonize over it and tell people they are hiding things. He did not have to tell you he was dating. He could have lied about that as well as lying about the sex.
Good luck on "closure." I doubt you'll get it. It seems instead that you are using this as an excuse to do more of the same. You're already extracting what you call "mixed signals" from him.
Here is his signal. It has been pretty darn clear from what you have written PRIOR to your last snooping. It is not confusing. Do not run with it. HE DOES NOT KNOW WHAT HE WANTS. HE IS UNWILLING TO BE THE ONE TO CANCEL HIS BACKUP PLAN. HE WANTS YOU IN THE WINGS WHILE HE CONTINUES TO DATE AND HAVE SEX WITH OTHER WOMEN. HE WANTS HIS PERSONAL LIFE TO BE NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.
If you accept that role, well, then maybe you have "unfinished business." Otherwise, there is really no business to be finished right now.
You have not gone dark. You are making excuses to connect with him. You are trying to extract something from him that you have to find for yourself -- peace with his lies, peace with ending your recent illusions of an exclusive R with him, peace with choosing not to be his friend, when friendship doesn't include the details of his personal calendar or bedroom.
X will tell you what you want to hear to get back into his comfort zone. Will you join him there?
"'Trust but verify'
You verified that he was not worth the trust."
Ya know, I'm not actually all that much against snooping. Indeed, I think some people should snoop.
However, at best snooping is justified in the context of what is supposed to be a committed monogomous relationship. You don't get to hack into the email of an ex-spouse who is dating other people just because you can guess the password.
Can I be his ongoing friend? No. Do I want to go out as enemies? No.
One is love one is hate, neither you can or want to do, based on your No answer.
Apathy is the middle ground. Don't care. Relearn how not to care.
OT,
Snooping at the begining of this becomes a habit and its like self inflicting pain on yourself when you keep finding more and more evidence of an affair. Self mutilation...
I agree with you though. Snooping is useful as long as it doesn't become an addiction.
So now what?
What is it your truly want from this Man?
First of all,
I realize I am making a lot of mistakes. Those of you posting to me are well beyond these times, and YES, I should be too, but there is the part of me that just wants my family together so badly that I make the dumb choices. I am not excusing myself- I just want you to try to understand when you think of how much this hurts when you are in the middle of it. You canot beat me up as badly as I am doing it to myself.
Yes, OT, you are right. Going is just going to give me hope- its going to allow me to hold back onto that thread that I say I so desperately want to detach from. Notice I am still at home. I have not gone. I know that I want answers, but I probably just want the answers that I want. Please understand that I came here to be honest, and also to get input. YES, I SHOULD KNOW BETTER. I know this. Anything I can say to that is just an excuse as to why I can't. So, I won't do that. It is frustrating; I know.
BND- what do I truly want from this man? My most humble and honest answer--- I want him to be someone he is not. I want him to love me. I want him to be the dad that he used to be. I want him to get help for his depression and to heal.
None of those are in my control. And all the words in the world won't make them. I do understand that. Now I just need to keep working on shutting the hell up.
And, hopefully you will help me thru this until I get strong enough to stop needing the input.
Thank you all.
Pam,
Wow. I missed out on a lot that was going on with you this past week. (I'm keeping my fingers crossed that my internet problems are fixed.)
My heart is hurting for you right now. I can imagine how painful this is. OT and Jack and BND and others had some great words of insight and advice.
I think I'm very much in the same boat with you. We still love our x's and want so much for them to be the good guys that we knew for so long, that we keep asking the questions and having the discussions---all the while hoping for the good guy responses---even though we know deep down that our x's are not capable of that yet.
You hit the nail on the head, for me as well as for yourself. We need to work on shutting the hell up.
IMO, don't meet with him. You don't need to talk about it anymore. You verified that he was lying to you, then you apologized for the snooping way that you got the info. Now leave it. You've already told him you can't be his friend while he's in another relationship. You stated your boundary, so stick to it. Any further discussion is pursuing behavior and clouds the boundary. No more wishy-washy.
We know you love him. He knows you love him. He's not ready to love you, so leave him alone.
TP!
I have missed you!
Well, a vigorous workout and I feel tons better. Like a different person, actually. I think I will be able to sleep tonight. I need to shut down all my thoughts and get some much needed rest.
I don't have a lot to say, except I really regret my actions and even thoughts of the last 2 days. But, I can't change it, so I will forge on and chalk it up as an experience that I wish to never repeat!
My mind is in a good place right now, and while I would be silly to think it will last, I will go with it.
Let this be a lesson as what not to do! No matter how much you think you know the other person better (than the people on the board offering advice based on experience), no matter how much you want to convince yourself that your situation is different...there is no reinventing the wheel here.
I doubt that my story is over- however, any parts that have to do with XH will have to be written by him. Maybe that will happen and maybe it won't. I will go back to my crazy busy life and stop fixating on it all.
Oh, and I plan to continue on working on that part of me that feels just not good enough. I have no reason to feel embarrassed (and I have, believe me, I have) for my XH moving on.
A work in progress. Yep, that's me.
My most humble and honest answer--- I want him to be someone he is not. I want him to love me. I want him to be the dad that he used to be. I want him to get help for his depression and to heal.
Then let him go Pam. You have to truly let him go and if he makes those changes for real and reenters your life, great. That is if you have not found something else that takes your heart by then. Otherwise why would you pursue something that does not currently meet your criteria for healthy?
Right now, stop the talking. Stop trying to look for the magical button that will fix him, it's not your job and you have not the power to heal him.
I see far to many times people that search so hard for the person that they fell in love with that they overlook the distinct possibility that he/she is actually gone. You want so bad to see the good that you are willing to tolerate things that you would bitch slap others for tolerating, this is the definition of self destruction.
I absolutely hate watching solid, good hearted, and intelligent people suddenly turn into exactly what they never wanted to be. Pam, step back from this, change the names in the story and see what you are really looking at here. Take the personal out of it and strictly look at this factually and see what you would recommend to someone else.
None of those are in my control. And all the words in the world won't make them. I do understand that. Now I just need to keep working on shutting the hell up.
YEP, and moving forward at the same time. Do not simply shut the hell up and stand still, thats like watching the train coming and not getting off the tracks....doesnt make sense right?
Ian
Bravo Ian!
CNMN, stop the chatter that is going on inside your head. I know this is hard...trust me, i fall for it plenty.
It is time to move forward girl...
I had to look at my STBXH and realize that he was not coming back either...and that if he ever does, then I wish him all the best...but I had to let go of the dream of yesterday...
So ask yourself, what do you see in YOUR future? What will it take to make YOU happy? We are all responsible for our own happiness...strive to find your balance again.
I'm rooting for ya!
Valentine
Ian,
Your common sense and kindness have been a real blessing. (Not to say that OT, BND, Jack, and TP haven't been lifesavers.)
Then let him go Pam. You have to truly let him go and if he makes those changes for real and reenters your life, great. That is if you have not found something else that takes your heart by then. Otherwise why would you pursue something that does not currently meet your criteria for healthy?
You're right, of course. Funny, Ian, I read this earlier today and now again, and in between I thought about it lots. It is almost curious to me that I am not fixating on the words "and reenters your life." I think that I so wanted to believe in the possibility of that happening that I would have only seen those words and thought "there is a chance!"
Kinda like something out of the movie
Dumb and Dumber.
So, it is a good thing that I am not questioning this- as in: Do you think it is possible? How long may it take? You know, all those things you want to believe.
My criteria for healthy.... Hmm, I should have one of those? Ha ha. Funny that it never occured to me that I should be discerning. Nope, I was only focused on getting him back- healthy, not healthy~ it mattered little. Thank you for reminding me that my decision making is not the best right now! I mean this sincerely. How could I have gone so long putting my own wants/needs on the back burner? It is astounding to me.
I like your last reminder- yeah, shut the hell up, but remember to keep moving ahead. I think that this has been another problem. Believe it or not, there were more times than not that I was able to shut the hell up, but I stood still while doing so.
I just got back from dinner from a friend. She said, "You seem very different today. I don't mean this in a mean way, but things were getting really bad with you. You were bordering on pathetic."
She went on to say, "I feel a shift. Am I off here?"
No, she isn't. Guys, I may seem impossible and hard-headed, but I do listen. And, if nothing else, I strive to be a better person at all times. (Granted, when I screw up I tend to do it in a big way, but, whatever...) The words here at times are harsh, but I appreciate them.
Were it as easy as simply taking the personal out of it, Ian, I would have been on the right track a long time ago. Wouldn't we all! Even so, I needed that reminder.
So, another successful day. One at a time, right?
Valentine,
Thank you for your kind post. Sometimes this board frustrates me, sometimes it amazes me. This is one of the days I am amazed by it. Thanks for saying you're rooting for me. That is so good to hear!
Pam,
You sound really good---positive and strong! :-)
It is almost curious to me that I am not fixating on the words "and reenters your life." I think that I so wanted to believe in the possibility of that happening that I would have only seen those words and thought "there is a chance!" Kinda like something out of the movie Dumb and Dumber.
LOL! I think Valentine called it the chatter that goes on in our own heads. I can SO relate to that. I am sometimes still consumed by those kind of thoughts, and by questions and longings, and sometimes I still just really MISS him (the guy that he used to be, that is), but it happens sooo much less now than it did even 2 months ago.
And I think it's in part because of this....
My criteria for healthy.... Hmm, I should have one of those? Ha ha. Funny that it never occured to me that I should be discerning. Nope, I was only focused on getting him back- healthy, not healthy~ it mattered little. Thank you for reminding me that my decision making is not the best right now! I mean this sincerely. How could I have gone so long putting my own wants/needs on the back burner? It is astounding to me.
I finally reached this same point a couple of months back.
Up until this past fall (18 months or so post bomb), I would have taken ex back---no questions asked. I would have tried to be SuperWoman---SuperWife, SuperMom---in order to keep him happy. I would have taken on all the blame and tried to change everything about myself that he complained about and put up with his crap in order to keep him home. Then I got to a point where I realized that being that kind of doormat wouldn't be healthy for me, and thought that I would let him return home "as is" as long as he agreed to counseling and comitted to working on our problems
together. I thought if he would just come home, I could help "fix" him.
Now I realize---him coming home before he's fixed himself probably wouldn't work.
I don't want ex coming home because his relationship with OW tanks, or because it's easier than dealing with all the fallout from the D (financial issues, kid issues, etc.) I don't want to be the "default" option.
We got where we are now in large part because he refuses to deal with his own low self-esteem, his feelings of insecurity and inadequacy, and his love/hate relationship with his parents. If he came home before dealing with all that, he might never get around to facing those issues. If he came home too soon, he could still blame me for all of his negative feelings and not have to examine his own feelings and subsequent behaviors.
(Doesn't mean that I would say no if he asked to come back home. Just means that I am much more realistic now about what it would take for that to happen.)
While I don't believe I HAVE to have a man in my life in order to be complete, I do miss being married. I miss having a partner to share my life with. But---I don't want to be ANY man's back-up plan.
I want a man who wants me enough to pursue me. I want him to love me enough to woo me. I want him to WANT to be married to me. If someday in the future that man turns out to be ex, great. But if ex takes too long getting his act together and someone else comes along and loves me that way, and I love him the same way, then too bad for ex.
I can still try to be the greener grass, but I need to be that "greener grass person" for my own health and happiness and for my kids, not just to try and lure ex back home. And if my green grass ends up attracting a new love interest, yay! ;-) That is what I want for you, too.
Hmm...maybe I got too bogged down in the metaphor there, but I hope you know what I mean!
Hope you are having a great day!
Hey Sweet TP!
Thanks for the post. Yes, doing better each day.
Up until this past fall (18 months or so post bomb), I would have taken ex back---no questions asked. I would have tried to be SuperWoman---SuperWife, SuperMom---in order to keep him happy. I would have taken on all the blame and tried to change everything about myself that he complained about and put up with his crap in order to keep him home.
I have been thinking about this (about myself of course) for the last few days... a lot. Jack made me laugh when he made a comment about me taking responsibility for everything. A few days later...while it is still a funny comment, it is not as funny to me! It is sad. I, too, tried to be superwoman...and when what I did didn't "work" I just tried the same thing harder! Like, those words didn't work...so I'll use different (and more, more, MORE!) words. I couldn't see that I was doing nothing to change the dynamic that just doesn't work between the 2 of us.
He did text me today. Just a simple "How are you doing?" I said "Great! Thanks." He told me he was working tonight and I wished him well and said I'd see him this weekend (son's b-day dinner). And guess what? My phone is in my purse and if he had anything to say to that I guess I will see it tomorrow. I don't feel angry..I am coming to terms with the fact that it wasn't really my right to think that I had any claim to his personal life. I think about what OT said about "fair" and I see that I was looking for fair. Life ain't so, is it?
I guess I will continue to wonder why so many marriages break up...there are many people on here that I really thought had such a shot at reconciliation and I end up shocked when the "it's really over" post pops up.
I must be getting stronger though... my support group has moved on! : ) That's cool-- I know ya'll will be back the next time I shake my crazymaker...
Just kidding. I am looking at it like a relapse of some sort. I am in day 4 of honesty and integrity. Oh, and that is just something I need to prove to
myself.... do not be alarmed! Not a statistic I plan to share with a certain someone. It has also occured to me lately that he knows who I am. I don't need to keep jumping up and down wanting him to notice me and my changes. The changes have been in place for a long enough time. He knows.
Back to boring old Pam. Sorry Folks.
Wow. Long time since I have posted. I've just been laying low and trying to reevaluate.
I have actually been talking to XH a bit more lately. I had to think long and hard as to whether or not I could handle it. I was acting like a scorned wife, and, well, I don't own that title. I needed to remind myself that he is free to do what he wants. And, I needed to take a good look at myself and admit that I was not someone that anyone would have really wanted to be around. Two tough truths.
In the last 2 weeks I have been over to his house twice. These are the only two times since he had owned it. I am glad that I waited this long to go. I was not in a place to be able to handle it. Each time I stayed only about an hour. I knew he was not the same guy I married, but, man! This really drove the point home.
Oddly enough for the first time I could look around and see things not as "things he is doing without me," but instead as "things that make him who he is." I hope that makes sense. Before I would look at the fact that he bought say, a picture for the wall, and would think "He's NEVER coming back...he's really decorating here!" Everything was in terms of "Is he coming back....what does this sign mean???" For the first time in all of this I was able to see something like that and marvel at his taste in things. It was always me that did the buying, so it is interesting to see what he is made of. 20+ years together and I really didn't know so many things about him...
It was a step we never had together. I went right from my parents house to an apartment with him. It was very strange to have him in his own space, offering me a drink. That has never been my experience with him.
I put it out there:
I told him that I was intrigued, seeing him on his own like that.
I gave this a lot of thought before I said it- I DO NOT want to fall back into the same old patterns. For once I did not pound him over the head with this info. I said it and then backed the hell off.
In a nutshell, I am ready to admit that he is not the same person anymore. I have been trying to make him so, and it has been frustrating for both of us. More importantly, I am open to the idea that I may get to know him as a single guy, and I may not even like him. I don't know. It is mind boggling to me that I pushed these thoughts so far out of my head. I wanted my old life back so badly that I was willing to do this.
So,I am sitting and being quiet. What happens will happen.
I did have to run my son over to his house yesterday. I fully planned on dropping him off and going. XH texted me and asked if I would like to join them for a bit...he said he'd have a cold beer waiting for me. I stayed for a short while, declined on beer #2, and thanked him for a nice time. He walked me to my car and asked if we could do the same thing next Monday.
I know that this changes nothing right now, perhaps never. I think this is the attitude I needed to have the whole time--- and I fear that it is too late. I am proud of myself for not feeling the need to explain to him how I am feeling and why.
So, that's that. I really don't know what will happen next. All I know is that I am sleeping at night now. And that is a much needed change in my life.
Sounding good.
FWIW, anytime you have to say something defensive like "I said it and then backed the hell off," it probably means that you were shooting yourself in the foot, knew you were shooting yourself in the foot, and did it anyway. ;P
OT,
You crack me up.
The comment about shutting the hell up came from the fact that I say things, then say them again, then again for good measure. And then I find new things to add to the same thing that I said. He has complained many times about this.
It isn't so much that I shouldn't say things, it is that I should give him enough credit that his silence does not mean that he doesn't understand. It usually means he is thinking. And, a lot of times it probably means he is thinking, "shut the hell up!"
I don't regret putting it out there that I was intrigued. It was a new feeling for me, and probably just as surprising to him as me.
I was really expecting "What happened to DARK, Pam?"
I guess I only get that when I initiate those really stupid conversations!!!!
Hey Lady....
Ya done good!!!!!
(((((hugs)))))
Why Thank ya, BND, thank ya very much!
Just got back from shopping with my son. Before we left, XH called to chat. He mentioned that he would be near the mall, so I suggested dinner. We met and the three of us had a great time.
As we were getting ready to leave the restaurant he hugged me and whispered in my ear, "I just bought a new suit. I know how much you like men in suits, so maybe we should go out Saturday night."
(Not as if we'd go out that dressed up normally-- we actually have a funeral to attend this weekend)
A date? Yikes. We have not been on one since January.
So, I will see what happens. I am not going to worry/think about what else is going on with his life. For now, I am going to be the better choice. That is something that I have not done with my depressed, mopey, and always-questioning self since this whole thing began. The thing is, I always thought that I felt I was the better choice...but I see now that it was more of a needy thing, as in "I
have to be the better choice- we've been together for so long and we have a family!!! Now I feel good enough to think "I am the best choice, and if you don't see that, well, too bad for you!"
I know I have my ups and downs, but I think that I am getting closer and closer to adopting that as my constant attitude. I have let this situation dictate my attitude in a bad way for far too long.
I want to test out my own feelings. Then I will figure out what comes next. Not being so desperate to get him back for the sake of getting him back gives me a better perspective! Right now, I need to get to know this guy. And both of us need to believe that I like him. Yep, I see the importance of this. FOR BOTH OF US.
Lets not question why it took me so long to consider these things! Lets just be happy I got here.
Happy you got here...
So any phone calls? : ) Little birds and all that...
Amazing Jack! You're like a mind reader or something!
Phone calls, you ask?
Let's see....
Thurs., Fri.(plus a visit), Sat.(plus was here all day until about 1 a.m.), Sun., Mon. (plus was here at night), A couple today...and just a bit ago a message that ended with, "I hope I can see you tomorrow."
I am not looking too far into it. I am curious, that's for sure. But, I am doing my best to continue to work on our communication issues. I don't know why this is happening, and to be honest, based on the past, almost anything can happen in the days to come. I honestly fear something really bad happening, so I probably won't relax for quite a while.
My most recent goals were to have him call me for no reason (check!), and for him to ask me over or out on a date. We were supposed to go out to a movie on Friday night, but a very close friend had a death in the family and needed me to help her out with some things that night. We haven't talked about rescheduling yet.
So, we'll see what happens. I don't know what I really want, other than the chance to build better communication and to go back to being the old me...not the one consumed by this situation.
On a good note, a VERY young guy (I should say "kid") asked me out yesterday. Not going, of course, but it was good on the PMA. I have been living far too long in the "I'm not good enough" mode.
Take Care, Jack. Ta Ta (ha ha!)
Hey cmnm, just wanna throw one thing in here. Going dark for the experienced DBer is a little different in my opinion.
You have to be able to judge the timing on it better because you are (supposed to be anyway) thinking more rationally and not out of fear or sadness.
I think "dark" takes on a different meaning. I like to look at it as more of a state of selfishness. Not contacting because it is what makes us better functionally and we are selfish enough to put our needs above all else.
Spitting out a blurb here and there, throwing out questions, straight talk, and candor, to me these are all signs of our own personal maturity through this process. Things are different for us this far into the situations.
I think you did well, and I think you should continue to (for lack of a better term) do what you want. Say what you feel like saying. Go dark to whatever extent you want.
Just my 1cent...........
Ian
(1) "Then I will figure out what comes next. Not being so desperate to get him back for the sake of getting him back gives me a better perspective! Right now, I need to get to know this guy. And both of us need to believe that I like him. Yep, I see the importance of this. FOR BOTH OF US."
This is part of why detachment allows for much deeper and more authentic intimacy.
(2) "I honestly fear something really bad happening, so I probably won't relax for quite a while."
How about this... Accept that you are making choices for your own reasons that come with some significant risks. Your choice to embrace those risks. Should an outcome other than what you desired occur, it was your choice to put yourself in that position. Such an outcome would not be something that just "happens," like a hurricane. If the potential costs are too great, then get out of the game now. If they are acceptable, then accept them and let go of the fear, you've already decided a poor outcome is acceptable.
(3) Give him more space to pursue you.
We haven't talked about rescheduling yet.
Well, you cancelled, you should be the one to see if there is interest still.
Yes.....
Pick up the bloody phone and call already!!!
((((hugs))))
On the contrary, let him come to you.
First off,
I couldn't ask for a better gang to hang out here!
Well, I did throw it out there that I'd like to do something this weekend, so we will see what happens. I left it in a message- we've been playing phone tag- so I just said something to the effect of, "maybe we can see that movie this weekend." Last message I got was this afternoon- he said he was going to stop by this evening. I don't know if he'll make plans for the weekend or not. It's out there- now I will do as OT says and let him pursue me. Looks like I was able to make you all happy in one fell swoop! That's a first!
There is something that has been bothering me for a few days. Last week when he was here the whole family played a board game after dinner. I later made the remark that the best times to me are the times we are all together. He agreed and said, "We're a fivesome, you know."
Well, no. I don't know that. Usually fivesomes stick together. I never know what to say to that kind of thing. I am not putting a lot into it. It doesn't make me hopeful, after all. Just uncomfortable.
Thanks again, you guys. You're the best.
Pam
Sorry OT I disagree she is the one who cancelled, I'm not say she beg for a date but that she be the one to remind him about it and see if there is the interest.
This is another place where I am stuck, Jack. I am trying really hard to treat him as if he were a new guy I am interested in. With all of the baggage, well, I tend to assume the worst. So, I am vague. "Maybe we can see that movie.." instead of "Want to go out on Saturday night?" lessens the chance of outright rejection.
This is a case of would I be better off ripping off that bandage? -In other words, would I be better off getting the straight story (perhaps rejection)? The thing is, for him it would be a rejection for that night, with the possibility of doing something at a later time. For me it has turned into "Well, if you don't have the time for me, then I don't need to talk to you EVER AGAIN." Yeah, I'm working on that black and white thing.
I am trying so hard to build the friendship and the communication. It is going to take time. Of course he isn't going to commit to me before that (if ever). So,I rely on vague to keep me on track for the time being.
I really don't know if it is right or wrong. It seems to be what I need for right now.
Does that make any sense?
Well, one thing that strikes me is the "lessens the chance of outright rejection " it seems to me that this is your own doing. I believe you may need to change your expectations in order to minimize your opportunity for pain. In other words if you go into it with a clear mind and the understanding that you expect no for an answer, then anything else is "icing" on the cake wouldn't you say.
The one thing that bothers me about you is that you tend to focus to much on the negatives. Don't get me wrong, I understand the fresh wounds and how we try to not put salt in them. But, this is a choice you are making to see what will come of things and when you do that you cannot go into with gauze and bandages in tow ready to be used because you "just know" that you are going to need them. I can remember when my daughter was very young and she touched the stove when it was still hot. Carrie started watching her all the time, not allowing her in the kitchen, that sort of thing. I told her, if she is dumb enough to touch that stove again, then she deserves to feel the burn.
Now understand I am not saying I wanted my kid to get hurt. I was saying that I want my child to learn from getting hurt. I didn't want her to never go in the kitchen again, just to think twice before touching the stove and look for the red lights saying it's still hot.
P, I think that sometimes we make what we are trying to do here much harder for ourselves than it has to be. I think we look at things and seek the negative rather than the positive ie: "We make a great fivesome" you looked at that with anger, reality is it's nice that he even had that thought. Many WAS would not and certainly many would never say it. Perspective, postive forward thinking, self fulfilling prophecy with a positive outcome, these are the things you need to keep cycling through your brain. You are in control here right?
Ian
((((hugs))))
Thank you for your post on my thread.
I answered you over there......
Ian,
Thanks for that. You're right, I am stuck in a very negative place. I think it is my safe place, which is why I revert to it. I am aware of it, but I do need reminders. Especially the thing about the fivesome. I should have looked at that in a better way. I guess the part of me that wants to be a real fivesome hears those words as so hollow.
I think too much. (I can almost hear the collective sarcastic gasp~ at the very least one from Jack!) I want to believe things, but then again I don't want to blindly believe.
Let me give you quick examples from the last couple of days:
On Saturday we celebrated Easter, as 2 of the kids had to work on Sunday. He left here very late Sat. night, and when I offered him some leftovers he said, "no, that's my rat hat." That is a Seinfeld reference--- George left a hat behind in a woman's apartment so he could guarantee a return visit. I won't go into why we say it is a rat hat- if you've seen the episode you'd know. Anyway... he called here on Sunday about noon. He said he would be over later- that he had some work to do in the house (very extensive renovations). All was positive and nice.
By 7:30 I had not heard from him. Middle child had been home from work and was preparing to go back to school. So, I texted him: Just wanted to let you know that (youngest child) is not here and (middle child) is getting ready to leave soon.
He called our son and basically said, "sorry I missed you- I will try to come visit this week."
OK, I admit, I was put off. Hurt, angry...call it what you will. He called my phone but I was off helping my son get his stuff together and I missed the call. Basically he said the same thing- "I'm sorry I missed you guys." He also asked for me to call.
Well, I didn't call. I figured I would say something dumb and I didn't want to go down that route. So, I did nothing. About an hour later I got a text: "sorry I missed you guys."
OK, now I was upset. He didn't "miss" us. He didn't show up! Isn't that different? I do have to say, when he called in the afternoon he really only talked about putting up some framing. I don't know if it was wrong to assume it wouldn't take too long...not 7+ hours.
I didn't answer the text. I needed time away from the sitch.
The next day I texted: I don't know what happened.
Him: Me either! I wanted to talk to you.
Me: I didn't know what to say. We went from you'd be over later to "sorry I missed you." There was really nothing to say to that.
He called me later, and the first thing he said was that when he got my text he was all ready to come over---he said, "I had dark jeans and a new shirt on and everything!" (something he knew I would like)
I said that I didn't know why he didn't come then.
He said that he got really involved in what he was doing and didn't realize it was so late. When he got my text he thought it meant I didn't want him to come.
I asked why he thought that, since all I did was inform him of what was happening.
He said that is just how he works--- assuming the worst.
I said I understood, since when he just answered with "sorry I missed you" it meant he didn't want to come.
In the end, he said that he doesn't know why he doesn't think like a "normal" person- that he sees now that he should have picked up the phone to say "hey, time got away from me!" but that the thought honestly never occured to him. He was getting a lot done and he just didn't think.
He said that after he texted he just went back to work. He said something two times about being really depressed over what happened. I mention this only because that is a really taboo word for him.
I said it sounded like we both made assumptions that we shouldn't have. We agreed to just let it go (instead of me talking it to death as I tend to do).
So, on Monday he came here, on Tuesday he said he would be here but called to say that he wasn't feeling well and would see me Wed. He did come last night, and we had a nice time together. We sat together on a chair and talked for quite a while.
At one point he said, "oh, I know you asked about doing something this weekend- can we do it later? I have got to get that bathroom done, and I just don't have the time (on Sat. he is going to be with son all day and night working on his car). He told me that his dad was coming (from out of state next weekend) to help him gut the kitchen and that he cannot start on that while the bathroom still isn't done.
I was disappointed, but I tried to not act too upset. I do understand that this is how he works....but I also don't want to make excuses for him. In other words, I don't want to be the dummy thinking that he is working on the house when he is really out doing something else. I have offered to help him, yet he really never takes me up on that. His reasoning has been that he wants this to be all his own- that we have always gone with my taste and ideas and he wants to do this alone.
He asked if I was mad and I said "no." That was honest. I said that I understood, but that I was just disappointed since I was looking forward to it. We still sat and talked for a bit until it was time for him to go.
I guess I shouldn't have added the "disappointed" part. I just didn't want him to read "mad" into it.
So, everything is neatly explained away....but I fear believing it.
I guess we can focus on the positives:
We have talked every day since early last week (I was trying to pinpoint it but couldn't- it's been so long).
He is calling daily.
We sat together last night and talked for a good hour.
He brought up the weekend instead of avoiding it.
So, that's where I am. Trying not to be negative, but being cautious. I guess there's a thin line between those two things for me. That's why I come here- to put it out there and get the perspective of people who understand where I am coming from. Most people around me would say, "you're too good for him! Why are you doing this to yourself???"
Most people...pppfft...most people give up.
More in a few.
You have every single right to "feel" the way you do.
The trick is to somehow find a way to verbalize things without making him defensive and without you having to keep it bottled up.
Take this advice from the hypocrite.....I do the same thing!!!
Just like we tell our kids....use your words!
I think I mentioned in an earlier post to you, you guys seem to lack in the area of communication. Not to be funny, but there really are classes and books on this stuff.
Maybe it could be something you both could do together one day.
Lower that barbed wire fence you have built around your heart a little.....I think it's time.
You know... the chances of him hurting you again are 50/50.
The chances of rekindling your Marriage are also 50/50.
(((((hugs)))))
When my wife and I started piecing, I knew that assumptions could kill or poison hard work, she agreed.
So we establshed a simple rule, no more assumptions and to speak plainly.
If I said something and it could be taken one of two ways and one of those ways was bad...That was not my intention. Why would I do that, if I wanted that I would say the bad thing plainly.
C, you realize you 'overthink' things. But when do you realize that? In hindsight? Later? the next day? Or hopefully do you realize it AS you are overthinking? If that is the case you can stop it. Laugh at yourself if you have too but stop and engage yourself in something else.
Look, are you guys piecing?
If No, then disregard the following.
If yes, then...
He called me later, and the first thing he said was that when he got my text he was all ready to come over---he said, "I had dark jeans and a new shirt on and everything!" (something he knew I would like)
I said that I didn't know why he didn't come then.
He said that he got really involved in what he was doing and didn't realize it was so late. When he got my text he thought it meant I didn't want him to come.
I asked why he thought that, since all I did was inform him of what was happening.
He said that is just how he works--- assuming the worst.
I said I understood, since when he just answered with "sorry I missed you" it meant he didn't want to come.
In the end, he said that he doesn't know why he doesn't think like a "normal" person- that he sees now that he should have picked up the phone to say "hey, time got away from me!" but that the thought honestly never occured to him. He was getting a lot done and he just didn't think.
This is OPEN and VITAL communication, you have learned the hard way how to talk...now you just need to learn WHEN.
See where I'm going with this?
How much angst yours and his could have been avoided if this conversation happened much earlier? Your night might have much different indeed.
Piecing...is about being brave all over again...and more so.
You have to brave enough to speak up, when you have trained yourself not too. You have to be brave enough to allow yourself to be gutted by a person you now know CAN and has hurt you before.
This isn't for whimps. This is a minefield. Strangely its a minefield you choose to walk through. This is your choice, and in order to get across you have to be brave.
Speak plainly. Speak up. Speak sooner.
Jack calls it Piercing......for a reason
I would love to do something about our communication problems. As it stands, he always goes back to, "you should be able to be yourself." He says that it is as if I have to purge every feeling as I am having it- and he cannot handle that because he feels responsible for my feelings. He always says, "I know this is MY issue, and YOU shouldn't have to change."
I always say back,"there are some things that i need to change. You have to trust that I am making decisions based on what I want for my life, not solely to fit better into YOURS."
For instance, I do not think of myself as a negative person. But, if you guys are telling me that i am coming off that way, well, then I want to work on fixing it. It is not because i want so desperately to fit in with you all, but because I do strive to be a better person. Don't get me wrong, you are a really cool group of people.....
Jack-
I will get back to you later. I need to think. Ha ha. I mean, overthink.
Actually I am off to the gym. On a full stomach after a steak dinner. Shouldn't be gone long!!!
I always say back,"there are some things that i need to change. You have to trust that I am making decisions based on what I want for my life, not solely to fit better into YOURS."
Simple:
"I'm changing for me not you."
Piecing? I wish. But, no, I couldn't call it that. In my mind, to be piecing a couple would have had to verbalize the intent in some way, shape, or form. That has not been done here.
Do I think he lives with regret? Yes.
Do I think that part of him wants this relationship? Again, yes.
Do I think he will follow through with the work that it will take for him to have a healthy relationship? Jury is out on that one. I see him taking the easy way out- the quick fix, the adoring "girlfriends." Heck, I don't even know where he stands with that. He could actually be busy working on his house, or he could just have other plans that he isn't going to admit to. I suppose if I were anywhere near piecing this would not be an issue.
C, you realize you 'overthink' things. But when do you realize that? In hindsight? Later? the next day? Or hopefully do you realize it AS you are overthinking? If that is the case you can stop it. Laugh at yourself if you have too but stop and engage yourself in something else.
I suppose the problem is that I usually realize it later. Like, I don't know why I didn't call him back on Sunday. He asked me to, and instead of taking it as his desire to talk to me I backed away from it because I was afraid of giving it away that I was hurt. I should have just called in the first place, instead of the text. I know that I just wanted to know that he was coming here for me, too. That if the kids were gone and he knew it, he must really want to see me if he'd still make the trip. That is just too much thought wrapped up in a simple act. At the time, I thought I was doing the right thing by staying out of the conversation. I didn't think about the many ways I could have handled it that did not include assuming and hurt feelings.
Sigh, I guess the problem isn't overthinking as much as it is worst-case-scenario thinking.
Speak up, speak plainly, speak sooner. All that without pursuing. Damn, this is hard!!!!
I wonder if I will ever feel confident that he is "in," as in really and truly. We've had so many false starts and stops. I can't help but wonder if the stops were caused by my negativity or the fact that he just wasn't that into it. Each time I regroup and then tell myself that I could have done better. And then we get here again.
Hmmm. Looks like I am spinning again. Oh great.
I always say back,"there are some things that i need to change. You have to trust that I am making decisions based on what I want for my life, not solely to fit better into YOURS."
Simple:
"I'm changing for me not you."
But your way isn't nearly as wordy! And we know that I go for the most words...almost as if I were getting paid for each one!
CMNM where can I read your thread from the start of your story?
I looked in the MLC Archives but couldnt find you.
SL,
My last thread is the only one that ever locked. I mostly posted on the threads of my friends. I used to be in the infidelity forum, I think. My last thread contains a recap.
Update:
XH called me last night and we talked for a bit before bed. (OK, it was 12 minutes, I just happened to look on my phone log.)
He texted me today a simple "How are you today?" He had told me that he had to watch his texts (work phone), so I called him back instead of texting. We talked for a good half hour.
He is going to be taking a new certification test for his job, so we talked about how I used to help him study. He said he is having a hard time studying this time around. I told him that he should leave the study guide here and we could make a daily time for me to ask him questions, say 10:00 - 10:15. We were laughing about this and then he said, "I really like this idea. Maybe we could even set up the webcams and do it that way." He said he was going to think some more about it, but that he hoped I was serious because it sounded like a plan.
So, that is my positive for the day.
I'll just keep racking these babies up!
Pam
Almost makes you nervous doesn't it? : )
Pam great weekend to you.
Nope! Well, nervously wondering if wearing only a thong if we webcam study is too much....
You have a great weekend as well!!!!!
Or you could start by being dressed like a eskimo and eliminate a piece of clothing per correct answer...... at least make him earn it CMNM.......
Ian
AHA! That's why I need you and Jack, Ian. Much better idea!!!
Well, it has been a nice weekend.
On Saturday XH was here all day long, working with son on his car. We had a nice lunch together and he was in and out of the house all day--- usually not passing by without a hug. He didn't leave until about 1 a.m.
Today he called me at about 12:00. I was in the grocery store. We talked for a few minutes and then I asked if there was anything he needed while I was there. He asked, "are you serious?" I said, "sure, why not?" He asked for a couple of items- no big deal. I said it would be no problem at all, and we actually were still chatting as I located the things and put them in my cart. He thanked me, even choking up a bit as he said, "You are......the best."
He was here when I got home- he stayed for a couple hours then said he needed to get back to work on his house.
I asked him what he got done this weekend and listened as he told me all about it and described what he still needed to do. I have offered before to help, but he never really replies. A couple of weeks ago when I offered to drive son over there for their Monday night together he said something like, "You better watch it! I might have to put you to work in here!" But, it never happened.
I would like to help--- it would be a good thing for us because in our marriage I didn't like to do house projects. Mind you, I didn't mind the work, I just didn't like how he did them. If we worked in the yard, for example, he would try to be efficient and work in the back while I worked in the front--- while I would want to work side by side. If you haven't gotten it yet, I like to talk! So, working alone in the yard was never fun for me if he was out there, too. I would usually end up just doing the inside things while he was out there. I figured there was no point in following his schedule if we weren't going to be together anyway.
So, now this would be a chance to just be an efficient worker-- no need to talk. I am better at that now, seeing as I am alone so much now.
The one bad thing I did this weekend was to push that a little. When he complained about all of the work I said, "you know, I would be happy to help you."
He was noncommital.
So, I said, "is there a reason you don't want my help?"
He didn't really answer, so I said, "I'm serious."
He said he didn't know.
I should have let it go, but I just don't understand this. So, I told him that I would do my best work (he is very particular), or if need be just do clean-up while he and son worked. He said, "actually, that's not a bad idea- the three of us working together could get a lot done."
I dropped it then. I shouldn't have taken it that far, I know. I just don't understand his reluctance for the help- judging by how much he is here.
In some ways I am feeling a little burnt out on this--- I feel as though I am working so hard to change this, change that (mind you, I realize I needed to change some things), keep up my PMA...and I give, give, give without asking for anything in return. (I was just reminded of a line from one of my favorite movies, Bull Durham: "What's in it for me?) I don't actually feel as if I am owed something, but I would like a gesture like a movie or dinner or something.
This is why I mess this up over and over. I get to this point and get impatient. Don't worry-- since I know this I will be careful not to. Maybe if I ride this out a bit I can see if something comes next, seeing I never make it this far.
OK, I just reached another goal. XH just called me as he was on his way home from a weekly sporting event. Early on in our separation he would call as he drove home. He stopped doing that. It is funny, because I looked at the clock a couple of hours ago and thought about that. I was thinking about my desire to have those days back again-- with no real hope of it being anytime soon. About a half hour ago he called as he was driving home- "just to say hi." We had a nice chat and he said he'd talk to me tomorrow.
I feel like I am getting back to the days where he is thinking about me when we are apart.
So, my goal this week is to not blow this again by getting all needy and demanding. I have lots of things on my agenda this week, so that should not be a problem.
All in all, a good weekend.
This should all sound pretty familiar...
FWIW, anytime you have to say something defensive like "I dropped it then. I shouldn't have taken it that far, I know. I just don't understand..." it probably means that you were shooting yourself in the foot, knew you were shooting yourself in the foot, and did it anyway. ;P
If he wants to come clean, if he wants to try an exclusive romantic R with you, HE WILL MAKE THIS VERY CLEAR. If that is not where he is, then he will not be clear on it, precisely because it is not his intent.
Quit pursuing XH so heavily, I feel crowded by you lol. One of the easiest ways for XH to feel the space he needs from you, BTW, when you won't make it for him, is for him to create it by reaching out to OW.
Finally, if you don't feel like you are getting anything out of his companionship, then you should probably just let go and move on...
One of the easiest ways for XH to feel the space he needs from you, BTW, when you won't make it for him, is for him to create it by reaching out to OW.
Oldtimer can you please explain this further.
CMNM hang in there!
Also oldtimer have you read my thread? Would love to here your take on my sitch, if you have the time.
OT!
Came around to administer the the light slap, eh?
Yeah, I hear ya. And I did know better. At that moment, part of me just wanted a little bit of truth. Something, anything. I spend a lot of time avoiding the truth when it comes to him, so I took a deep breath and decided that in that moment I could take it. Not saying it was the right choice....just my reasoning.
I do have to stick up for myself on the "quit pursuing him so heavily" thing. 90% of the time he calls or texts me. He comes HERE. When he is here I do my own thing, unless he has come specifically to see me. We started to slip back into our old patterns, with him hanging out here, and last night I told him that son can take my car to drive over there for their Monday night together. I don't think it is good for me for him to come hang out here so much when things are so up in the air. I didn't explain why (a positive for me)- I just let him know that's how we would do it.
Your last line--- believe me, I think a lot about that. It is not as if I get nothing from his companionship, however, I do give a lot more than I get. I would entertain the thought of a date with someone else if the right person asked. I think this would be a good thing. I do believe he needs to see that I am not going to hang out here forever. It is not a ploy, either. I have a lot to give and I am sure there is someone out there who may appreciate this a little more.
You sure don't sound as if this has much hope. It plays on the part of me that entertains that thought, too. I guess all I can say is that I am not as dumb as the person who you are seeing/reading. I am not naive and I am not living in some fantasy world. I guess all I can say is that I have made so many mistakes that I want to know that I cleared those up, and THEN if it still doesn't work I can walk away knowing I did all that I could.
Thanks,
P.
It is not as if I get nothing from his companionship, however, I do give a lot more than I get. I would entertain the thought of a date with someone else if the right person asked. I think this would be a good thing. I do believe he needs to see that I am not going to hang out here forever. It is not a ploy, either. I have a lot to give and I am sure there is someone out there who may appreciate this a little more.
You sure don't sound as if this has much hope. It plays on the part of me that entertains that thought, too. I guess all I can say is that I am not as dumb as the person who you are seeing/reading. I am not naive and I am not living in some fantasy world. I guess all I can say is that I have made so many mistakes that I want to know that I cleared those up, and THEN if it still doesn't work I can walk away knowing I did all that I could.
Thanks,
P.
Pam,
Hey, girl! How are ya? My house (and therefore, my life) is in upheaval right now! I hate remodeling! And why is it that the different contractors and repairmen always tell you their specific project will only take one or two days, and then every single one ends up taking a week or more!!?? I can't wait for it to be finished. I'm at the end of my rope financially, and need this house to sell quickly!
So, got a coupla comments for ya. Please forgive me if I sound like a broken record. And...Umm...I maybe have a little hand slap for ya? Hrmm hrmm. <clearing my throat>
You are NOT a dumb, naive person living in a fantasy world, and no one here thinks so! (Well, I can't speak for
everyone, obviously, but I haven't read anyone here who says that.) I don't know you in person, but we've corresponded long enough that I can tell you are a loving, loyal, generous, committed woman who made/makes mistakes but who still loved/loves her husband. I completely understand and totally agree that you should make sure you've done what you can to correct the mistakes you've made, and let your exH know you are changing for the better and you still care about him.
But you've done that, and now you ARE still pursuing. Stop it, stop it, stop it! (Imagine a childish foot stomp for emphasis.) ;-)
It's great that he is the one who calls and texts you most of the time, but sometimes you say things that you KNOW are pursuing, and you do it anyway. Quit it.
You say that sometimes you just need some truth or some answers. Well, right now you're not going to get the answers you want in most cases, so quit it. And even if he says something that could be taken as a positive, it could be because he's feeling pressured to say it, so it turns to a negative.
OT (or Jack?) said that if he wants a real, committed, monogamous relationship with you, he will absolutely, unequivocally let you know it. So unless you're at the point of a "final ultimatum" talk, where you absolutely 100% mean that you are done, and if he came back 3 months from that point you really would say NO to him, then quit it. Quit trying to get answers or understand. Quit asking him questions he probably doesn't know the answer to yet. Bite your tongue HARD if you have to. Pinch yourself. Put a rubber band around your wrist and snap it!
Oh, believe me, I know how hard it is! And I'm preaching the "do as I say, not as I do" sermon! Cuz you and me? We're control freaks. We need answers, and we need to understand. We also talk too much and overexplain. We think that if we could just find the right way to say something, or the right way to express our feelings, or the right way to apologize, or the right way to do something, we could make the sitch all better. We could make our exes see the light that much quicker. But ya know what? WE CAN'T.
Oops. This is turning into a novel, as usual. <sigh> I'm gonna split it up into a couple of posts.
Next part:
Personally, I do NOT think you are at the "final ultimatum" point (where you refuse to have any further non-kid-related contact with him if he's not interested in reconciling.) And since you are not ready to give up on him completely, stop pursuing him and START PURSUING YOUR OWN LIFE.
This does NOT mean giving up on him. I think it DOES mean allowing yourself to see that there are other attractive options for your life besides reconciling with your exH. (And by "attractive options" I don't only mean men. Lol!) I know you do some social things, but do something new! And if you are starting to consider dating, go to a singles mixer in your area. Attend a Singles class or event at your church. Just get out and meet NEW people. You could even do the free trial period on one of the online dating sites! You don't have to actually go out with any of them. Just give yourself permission to look and consider the possibilities! (Good Lord, I sound like a commercial, don't I? Lol!)
And now that we're on the subject of dating, here's the hand slap:
You do NOT go out on a date because your exH
needs to see that you won't hang out there forever. !!!
If you go out on a date, it's because you've met someone you like that you want to get to know better!
If you do say yes to a date, it should just be about you and that person. ExH shouldn't factor into the equation at all, because that's not fair to the person you're going on the date with. (Oh, I know it will be impossible to keep from comparing someone new to exH, at least in the beginning, but that's normal. Hopefully, the new person will compare quite favorably!)
But teaching exH a lesson, or proving something to him, should not be the motivating factor for you saying yes to a date with someone new.
IMO, you need to be secure (in the knowledge that you have options and you don't have to hang around waiting for exH forever) BEFORE you start dating!!
Okay, okay, maybe that's a little too cut and dried. You don't have to have all the answers from the very beginning. I do think it's okay in the early stages if you go out with someone very casually just to prove to yourself that you can do it and that there are interesting men out there who are interested in you.
But in that case, YOUR wants, YOUR needs, YOUR curiosity, should be the motivating factor for going on the date, NOT because exH
needs to see that you won't hang out there forever. !!!!!
Again, it doesn't mean you are giving up on exH. It just means that at this point he is only one of your options.
TP,
You take that hand slap back right now!
You obviously missed where I said "not as a ploy," after discussing dating.
Sigh, I know I have been here too long to make some of the mistakes that I do. But that is certainly not one of them. If so, I would have done that by now. It is the VERY reason I have not dated. I knew that I had way too much baggage.
I realize I need to get past this "the whole thing is my fault" issue that I have.
Just please guys, don't lecture me on GAL! I work full time, I go to the gym 3-4 times a week, I have a standing dinner date every Tuesday with friends, I have a standing drink date with a group once a week, and the weekends are usually full with something. This weekend I am going out with friends from college and I just accepted an invitation for cocktails with another group. I hate that I am typing this, but I just feel as if I am not telling you who I really am in some way.
Please don't get me wrong, I am not mad. This is just a lot to absorb. I was trying to focus on "what would things look like if they were getting better?" and a big one for me is the calls at night just to talk. I feel I need those if I am to go anywhere with this.
Yes, I made a mistake with the helping around the house thing. I will not bring it up again. The movie we were supposed to see together? I will go see it with someone else, since I see no time to see it with our schedules before it is taken out of the theaters.
I am smart enough to know that because I am feeling defensive I need to think on this some more. But, I have to say, all in all I really thought I was doing things better.
Off to make dinner.
Hey Pam!!
I don't think you have done anything wrong.
Perhaps your expectations are just a little high...
Listen, and this is just my opinion....
You want a brand new relationship with your Husband, not more of the same.
Yes there are some good things that you want back from the relationship, but ultimately the "old" Marriage is dead.
You have to be patient as both of you have to learn how to trust one another again, and this takes time.
I wish you could enjoy this time, and take it slowly and look at it as an adventure, a journey of sorts.
Neither of you is the same person, try to remember that.
I know you can do this!
(((((hugs hugs)))))
Conflicting advice...on reaching out. It seems? Maybe I'm ready that wrong.
The way I see it...if he takes several steps toward you in a manner you want him too, he should be rewarded by seeing you take at least one step toward him as well. Not running all the way back to him however.
This tentative talking and such, this is hard. Who knows where it will go...this is fragile right now, it could be so easy to destroy this tiny possibly growing communication and relationship that seems to be budding... C, don't ever get me wrong this is hard stuff lots of second guessing and worry. Lots of feeling stupid, like how could I do this again? If you want to be married you simpy do.
C, what people see here is what we present to them. Hard to see the REAL us. Am I this much of a d i ck in RL? : ) Sometimes, but then I don't usually have my friends in RL complaining about the same issue day in and day out...no not you C.
It's only a mistake if you don't learn from it.
I realize I need to get past this "the whole thing is my fault" issue that I have.
That'd be cool. : )
I'm not sure that hand slap needs to be taken back by the way...if it wasn't on your mind...then you wouldn't have taken the time to write it. : ) food for thought. Everyone has baggage, eveyone, the difference lies in whether you carry it or if someone else has too.
By my book, you REALLY are doing better.
BND,
Good points there. You are absolutely right...this needs to be a new relationship. I know that I am the one who keeps one foot stuck in the old one. I need to think on that.
Jack,
Thank you for describing what I am going thru so well! I do not want to start spinning again with all of this conflicting advice. But, I am trying to be really careful to not pick out the things that I want to hear and to discard the ones that strike a nerve.
Ha ha... I am quite sure you are this much of a D in real life.
Actually, I have never thought of you in that way. You are concise and witty. You say it like you see it. And, you do things that make me laugh, like calling SL "Lewis." I laugh everytime I see that for some silly reason. BTW, thanks for adding "no, not you C" in reference to people complaining about the same thing day in and day out.
Yeah, I know that you guys only see the neurotic me. So, I should expect what I get at times. And, though it stings at times, I really do need to hear these things.
Quote:
I realize I need to get past this "the whole thing is my fault" issue that I have.
That'd be cool. : )
See? concise. Acknowledged and appreciated.
I still will disagree on the dating thing. Yeah, I took the time for the disclaimer--- only cuz I know how people think around here. I am curious about dating--- kind of. If I am honest, when XH talked about dating exclusively in the fall I was kind of mad at myself for not exploring that option when I had the chance. It is not out of the question. I just really haven't had many offers. People say it is because I am not open to it--- that if I opened myself up people would come. I don't know about that. I just know that I am not the online dating type and my profession is one that I don't see many men in a given day.
By my book, you REALLY are doing better.
Thanks for that. I really do appreciate it.
TP, if you are reading this please don't think you upset me. I know you will! It is just a frustrating place to be. I want to learn to trust, yet I don't want to blindly do so. I try to put things in the past, but every once in a while something pops into my head and I don't know if I should allow it the headspace or let it go. Learn from the past/ forget the past and move on.... yikes! What's a girl to do?
I am going to lay low. Which is pretty much where I have been for awhile now. BARRING SOME MISTAKES, of course. He is to the point of calling, coming by, or texting each day. I try my best to keep these as short and positive interactions. I will drive myself crazy if I analyze why he takes the time to do this, or worse yet, remind myself that we have been here before only to find out that there was lots going on behind the scenes of which I was completely ignorant.
I know that I have to get boundaries back in place, and I will do that despite my fear of jeopardizing the postive steps that have been taken. Hopefully I will do it with love and tact.
Sheesh. Why does this have to be so complicated????
Yes, I can see why you wouldn't be the online dating type. After all, the last time you were trying to date, the online dating thing didn't work for you at all. May as well keep the door closed on that option.
OT,
???
I'm ignorant here...
Are you being snide? Do you have me confused with someone else? What am I not getting?
Pam,
No, I don't think you're upset with me. I know you are getting lots of conflicting advice, and I know how confusing this is!
You are getting a lot of positive baby steps from him, and that's awesome! I would just like to see you take the focus off of him a bit and put it on YOU and what YOU really want and need. You are focused on exH, thinking about what he's thinking, what he's feeling, what he's planning, how he'll react to your reactions to his reactions to your reactions......... LOL! You know what I mean.
I know how hurt you were a few weeks back when you found out he was still dating someone else. So, has that ended? You have said several times you couldn't go through all of this again while he was still dating other people. So has he committed to not seeing anyone else while the two of you try to figure out what you have together? Or have you softened your stance on that? I don't remember seeing that, but I have been largely computer-less for a couple of weeks now and may have missed it. I just don't want to see you go through pain and disappointment again if he has NOT stopped seeing other people.
And if he is still seeing other people, I still don't think you should "give up" on him. I would never encourage you to shut him down if he was trying to make a reconnection to you, even if he WAS still dating others. My fondest wish and greatest hope for everyone on this board is that they renew their marriages, if that's what they want! Hey, as big an a&& as my ex is, and as many doubts and questions as I have about him right now, reconciling with him is still my prayer! I've just decided that I'm not going to sit and wait and let life pass me by on the off-chance that he might someday finally be ready for that.
I just don't want you to get your hopes up again, only to find out that your exH is not ready to make a decision yet. If you are still willing to ride the rollercoaster, it would at least be helpful to know that you ARE still ON the rollercoaster! If he's not ready to explore a new relationship with you, and you are still on the rollercoaster for a few more turns, I would encourage you to branch out. Put him on the back burner for a while! Don't put all of your eggs in his basket! (How many other worthy cliche's can I throw in here? Nah, I'm sure you get the point.)
Honestly, I'm not trying to encourage you to date! It's just that you have mentioned it more than once, so I assumed it was on your mind.
And I agree with Jack---I do NOT take back the hand slap!
You were the one who said "exH needs to see that I won't be hanging out forever." And yes, I did catch that you followed it up by saying it's not just a ploy. I understand. I'm in a similar spot right now! (Trying to decide if I really want to date, or if I'd just be using it to try to get my ex's attention. I'm torn. It really is a bit of both.) You just have to be so careful to make sure that it would be for the right reasons.
I want you to make sure you are focusing on YOU and what's best for YOU. Oftentimes we DB'ers focus so much energy on our ex's and trying to save or renew our marriages, that we don't stop and take stock of where we are in our lives, to really examine the new person we are now, to see if reconciling with our ex is really what is best and healthiest for us at this point in time.
Take care of YOU.
we DB'ers focus so much energy on our ex's and trying to save or renew our marriages, that we don't stop and take stock of where we are in our lives, to really examine the new person we are now, to see if reconciling with our ex is really what is best and healthiest for us at this point in time.
Take care of YOU.
Maybe I should explain my reasoning for this---I have a friend with a WAH, 45ish, 3 kids, much younger OW, the whole 9 yards. They went through a very difficult and acrimonious divorce. She was a stander throughout their divorce and for over two years afterwards. Finally got to the point where she realized life was passing her by while she was sitting around waiting on her ex to get a clue, and she decided that enough was enough.
She got on with the getting on. She pursued her own life. Went back to school and finished her degree. Met a great guy in the process and started dating. ExH sat up and took notice. Started coming around and showing interest in her. Soon said he wanted to get back together.
She thought about it really, really, really hard. Realized she wasn't ready for that, and finally said, no thank you. Her ex couldn't believe it. Her kids hated her guts for a while.
But she is adamant in her belief that if they had tried to get back together at that point in time, it wouldn't have worked. Her ex was curious and jealous, but he hadn't yet faced all his demons or finished doing the work on himself.
Two more years went by. Ex had a life-changing, revealing experience that humbled him. She was there to be a friend and talk to him when he needed it. At that point, when exH asked again if they could try again, she knew he had done the work on himself and it would be worth the risk.
They recently remarried after over 5 years apart. :-)
I get what you're saying, TP. I do.
And you are correct, the whole "stance" is muddled. I really have no idea what he is doing when he is not here. It is muddled mainly because he has been spending so much time around here and if not, accounting for time away. However, I do know that doesn't mean much, as it really hasn't in the past.
I kind of don't know how to get myself out of this right now. On one hand, I want to continue the positive steps, as he has attempted them before and when we get so far I get way impatient and create some major drama. I would like to see what happens when I don't do that for a change. However, I can see why it plays out that way as I just get tired of this whole situation.
I was thinking last night though that this is his "safe" place. His house is a wreck, and he works from home most of the time and HATES his job right now. I think he likes to leave there and come here. I, however, like getting to know him there.
I don't know if I continue taking his calls and visits or what if this doesn't really progress. I am already getting weary of the calls because there is so much unsaid.
All in all, I am in a place that I don't like.
So, you say, remove yourself from it.
Yes, indeed. I do talk about it, after all, that's what this forum is for. Does it consume my every thought and feeling? No, not really. Of course I want this relationship. It is just really tricky right now. I know I need to drop the worry. That's why I come here- to be reminded of that.
Last night I got home from the gym and he was here. I sat in the living room a bit, doing some work on my laptop. After a while I went up to bed (quite early). When he went to leave he came up to my room to ask me if everything was ok. I assured him that it was. He talked to son a bit and then came back in, hugged me, and said, "tomorrow will be better."
So, here it is, tomorrow.
It will be better. I have dinner plans and a good attitude. OK, semi-good attitude.
I don't want to be hurt anymore either, TP. I am trying really hard to prevent that.
Thanks for your kind words.
Pam
Pam,
Sorry, wasn't meaning to sound snide. I was really just teasing you a little in a friendly, smiling, winking way, even though I see that it didn't sound like that.
Trust me, from this perspective, it is pretty clear that you are a place that lies a bit of a way from really being ready to date. The automatic, uninformed "not an online dater" comment is pretty standard from people in that place. Kind of like a sex-toy hater who rejects them as dirty, stupid, pointless, ineffective, etc... until she gets one. Odd analogy, but I'm in a hurry, lol.
OT Your analogy was awesome. Thanks for making me smile today.
OT,
Ahhhh! I get it now. And, yes, I had to smile.
I think I am just a walking contradiction.
What I am ready for is to allow myself to see that there are men out there who will treat me better. I didn't want to admit that to myself- I wanted to keep fooling myself into believing that despite all, XH is a great guy.
Well, he's not. RIGHT NOW, he is not honest, he is not giving, he complains a LOT, and he is selfish. There. I said it out loud. OK, not really. But in print. If you go thru everything that I have ever written you will see that it is pretty rare that I speak badly of him. It is still really hard for me to say the word "Liar." I don't know why it is so hard to come to terms with that.
The online dating thing comes more from my lack of confidence in putting myself out there. I don't think I want anyone looking at my pic and judging me on it. Actually, I am sure I don't want that. I don't see that ever changing. I am sure there are great guys to be had out there, but it will never be the way I could go about it.
People reject sex toys?
Sheesh. What kind of world are we living in?
Pam
The really suck part...really...is realizing that your spouse might not ever have treated you as well as you deserve. Might never in fact. Seriously, has been a topic of conversation for a few of us.
And while that may be true in some cases...the treatment after the MLC is a whole ton better than the treatment during the MLC. Hell it would have to be.
WAIT a second... C, honest, you are a fox. You'd catch my eye on the street, so I'm not sure where this lack of confidence is coming from...unless you're just doing that to garner some compliments...which fine you got one.
Yes, Jack, it really does suck. I wonder if he will treat the next person better?
But I will stop wondering that...
too much energy in the wrong place and all.
A fox--- I am laughing out loud. I did not say that to get a compliment...and you have no idea how "icky" it is to me that you, BND, etc. have seen me! I don't know if all of this has taken just too heavy of a toll on my self esteem. Which, of course, is ZERO attractive.
But, anyway, thanks for the compliment. It made my day, actually. As did the word fox, which I haven't heard since Andy Gibb was still alive, I think.
Been hagning out with the wrong crowds then, the pinky in the air tea sipping types my dear. Andy Gibb...hahaha...
The Brothers Gibb speak of a sickness that only strikes on Saturday night....
Well, hell, Jack. Get out your platform shoes and let's hit the disco!
Maybe I'll have more luck there than online.
If not, I hear tell of certain toys that sound interesting.....
I suck.
No, I didn't do anything too stupid. But, I realize that I just need to be alone- I don't have it in me to try to bust anything.
After letting everything go (no pursuit, OT!) my XH called and very tentatively and sweetly asked, "Do you think you could come over on Saturday and help me paint?"
Of course I agreed. I wanted that....right?
Uh, no. Now I see why he has kept me out of there.
I simply can't handle it.
I did well, for the most part (on Sunday, BTW, because he lost power after a big storm on Saturday). I got all of the priming and painting done that he wanted. The problem was that I was so uncomfortable there that he surely noticed.
See, last time I went I went to get a beer in the fridge and there were Mike's hard Lemonades in there. Let's just say HE doesn't drink those. Either do I. 'Nuff said.
So, I vowed to steer clear of the fridge...which wasn't easy, since I took food there. I kind of worked my way around it- asking him to hand me this or that, or asking him to put this or that in the fridge. I doubt he caught on to what was going on, though. I was just doing what I do best--- avoidance.
After that, I did pretty well. Like I said, I worked hard and got things done- laughing and having fun while I was doing it.
I noticed lots of odd things in the house that I knew didn't come from him, and I tried my best to avoid thinking about any of it. Fake it til ya make it, they say.
It wasn't perfect, but the best I could fake until the very end. UNTIL,
I went to pick up my containers that he had from food I had made him, and right there on the counter was a postcard. Now, I admit, I have no idea who it was from. All I know is that in all the years I lived with him we never received a postcard from anyone. The rest of the time is kind of a blur. I think everything I had surpressed kind of came rushing at me. I mumbled a quick goodbye and got out of there. I didn't do anything nutty (or say anything), but it was an awkward exit. I am sure he saw what I was looking at before I left.
I haven't heard from him. He had asked me to go back tonight (earlier before I freaked), and I have no idea what is up with that at this point.
I know that I need to build these good times with him in order to show him that I am not the same old person, but as long as someone else is in the picture, I just can't.
I know it sounds like speculation, but he did admit to dating, and he hasn't said anything different since then. Yeah, I knew that going in to it. I guess I wanted to believe that something had changed, based on his last 2 weekends being completely free (I knew what he was doing F, Sat, and Sun of last week and this week).
I am not sure what to say if he calls. I don't know if he thinks I am still going there, or if he felt that there was an issue. I don't think I will go into any explanation, just say, "I'm sorry, I can't make it after all."
It hurts because I do believe we were moving towards something. I really tried to just be the better option, but the cost is too high for me. I just don't think that I can believe him, and lots of things around there just reminded me of all of the lies he told me.
I just don't think I can go back to that--- a lot would have to change. I am stuck in a horrible cycle, and right now only he can break it. I don't see that happening.
So, that's that. He knows who I am. He knows how much I have changed. He hasn't. If he is dating (one particular person), the fact is that he is still hanging on me, calling me, and inviting me over. No, he hasn't changed. And, this is a prize I don't want to win. AS MUCH AS IT HURTS.
C,
It is so difficult being in his home, and realizing it has NOTHING of you in it. No memories...except of people not you.
It is speculation. Simple. but he said...yes in the past...its still speculation...would I bet against you? No.
Be honest with him...cripe!
All this fails, talk to BND. Be honest, tell him why tell him what and tell him how, tell him that you trying your best, but there are going to be things that will rip your guts outs if you see them, things that you are going to jump to conclusions about in this home of his.
You job after telling him this, is to try level out your emotions, and be calm when talking to him about a postcard. His job if he wants you around is to try to make this house more CNMC Friendly.
You, despite your best specualtions are not a mind reader...and he sure as sure isn't either. And thank God we are not.
"Do these jeans make me look fat?"
"REALLY?"
Thank God we cannot read minds.
Honesty is the ONLY path if you are looking to piercing it is the only way and REALISTIC expectations with open communication, gone are the days of silent brooding and harboring hurt feelings...you cannot afford that crap.
He knows who you are...
Are you sure? Or is that an assumption? One that will kill a relationship?
Thanks Jack.
At the risk of being a noob,
do I wait for him to bring all of this up? I thought my job was to avoid R talks!
Things that confuse me:
I went out with friends on Friday night.
XH made a comment that he wanted so badly to go to that bar. He said, "I wanted to be a fly on that wall." He also said a few times that he hoped that I would call him. I just said, "I didn't know that was an option." He said, "Of course it is. I am always here for you."
I talked to him about training for my triathalon. I mentioned that I am going to begin riding my bike to work each day. He said wistfully, "You have become my dream girl."
And, lets not forget that he invited me into the fortress of solitude. (Well, that's not the right name anymore! I guess I will go with fortress.)
Please, don't give me the "you are focusing on HIM too much." Yes, I am right now. I need to figure all of this out. I DON'T WANT TO GIVE UP. I will, however, I do not want to. I just want to go out knowing that I did all I could.
Oh, one more thing: He is currently talking to a mutual friend who is now separated. He is talking to him about TRYING EVERYTHING BEFORE DIVORCE.
And this way I preach. This honesty holy crap is it scary. We aren't used to this, we are used to disembling when we talk. No more...this is scary stuff.
At first almost every time you talk, it feels like this is it. She is going to walk away, I'm going to say I can't handle this and I need you to stop and she is going to say, 'no'.
It almost seems easier not to say anything, and just assume they will say no...so this way...it's your choice the relationship failed.
Its a cowards way.
All your relationships will improve for speaking honestly, this one included. And I will say this...honestly but with tact. Jack? Really he said use tact...yes he f-ing did if you want to be married.
C,
CMNM
Member
Registered: 11/17/03
If you guys are talking nicely, he wants you around and you want to be around...then you are piercing.
When do you have this talk? Sooner is better and whenever you want too. you want a way to broach the subject?
"I felt a little weird at your place...it's strange this whole part of you I had nothing to do with."
Thanks again Jack.
I am off to the gym. I don't know what is going on for tonight yet, but I'll go burn off some calories while waiting! I will let you know how it goes.
Tact and honesty. And no emotion!
A tall order, but I will do it!!!
And I have been thinking him the coward...
Seems I am no better
I posted your register date for two reasons.
Not A Newb.
Well past the no R talks 5 years later and where you are at in your head.
Do you have a FB account?
You should REALLY become a Divorce Busting Fan on Face Book.
Absolutely....
Everyone here should have a FB account and become a DB fan to show your support.
BND,
Of course I have a FB account, silly rabbit. But of course you knew that since I am on your list of peeps. A fan of DBing? What am I missing? A group? I really try to keep it all separate, as there are real life friends on there that I don't want to see all of this stuff or make a link to it.
Oh Jack, I know I am not a newb. I was just making reference to the fact that I act like one so much of the time. Most of that is grounded in fear. Also, I am so conflicted. Do i press on? Do I give up? Am I settling? I could go on with 80 million questions and make you all nuts but I won't.
BND, what are you thinking?
Did you know that sometimes it is really hard to figure out who is who on FB because on DB we are not allowed to use our real names or give out contact information as it is against the rules.
You aren't piecing a marriage back together. You are divorced. You are not dating exclusively. It is not even clear that you are dating. Going in for the big R talk when only one of you is in that R is not advisable. It is pursuit, intrusive, presumptive, and suffocating in a big way.
That being said, I'm all for being direct and honest:
"Sorry XH, I've been fooling myself. This "just friends" or "casual dating" or whatever we are doing doesn't work for me. Instead, I need either more or less of an R. Given I will no longer be more into our R than you, it will have to be less of an R. For now, let's keep things strictly business. I sincerely wish you all the best. Time for me to find all the best for myself too. So, enough said. Ciao."
Of course, a third alternative is to simply match his level of commitment/effort/involvement with respect to your R and accept the way things are. But, you've said that you don't want to do that. And frankly, I don't think it would go much of anywhere.
Like you said, you are simply repeating the same cycle. Why? Because you choose to keep playing the same role. You are wrong that he is the only one who can break the cycle.
Your life, your choices. Step away from the cycle, and quit blaming YOUR choice to spin on him.
OT,
I respectfully disagree with the fact that you don't think that she is piecing a Marriage together.
Yes, they are Divorced, BUT, they also have a history together, children, etc.
Divorce is just a piece of paper.
I do however agree with the fact that there is a huge lack of communication and that is the area she needs to be working on.
bnd,
Sure, two people who are divorced could be piecing, unless someone is being a real nitpicker. But, piecing takes two people invested in working on a long-term committed R. That is not happening.
A lot of people on these boards push things and jump into the piecing forum and attitude when they are the only person really in that kind of R. (Which, of course, means that they aren't really in that kind of R.) This hasty move both undermines their chances of reconciliation and tends to keep them stuck in old ways of thinking/doing.
Just because they can have fun together does not mean that they are at the point where trying to pull together a long-term exclusive, committed, romantic R is on the table. I don't think it will serve Pam well to act like that's what it means. That just keeps her firmly in her standard place in this cycle of hers. And, it very much crowds out the space XH needs to genuinely figure out what he wants.
Hey, I think I will weigh in on this, if that's o.k.
Off to reread first.
Did you get my message?
American Idol starts in one hour and 20 minutes!!
You aren't piecing a marriage back together. You are divorced.
I do believe I was clear on this one when I said:
Piecing? I wish. But, no, I couldn't call it that. In my mind, to be piecing a couple would have had to verbalize the intent in some way, shape, or form. That has not been done here.
Do I think he lives with regret? Yes.
Do I think that part of him wants this relationship? Again, yes.
Do I think he will follow through with the work that it will take for him to have a healthy relationship? Jury is out on that one.
I'm not a dumb girl. I'm not even a naive girl. I hate reading the kind of thing you wrote because it seems designed to make a fool of me. Since I don't think that people are usually hurtful on purpose, I will take it as your intention to be real with me and not offer up false hopes. I am fully aware that I am divorced. I didn't show up to court and all, but I have never denied that it happened and I don't think that a reminder is a necessity at this point.
OT, you said:
Going in for the big R talk when only one of you is in that R is not advisable.
I can understand that you think that I am the only one in this R. And, in reading some of the things that I write, I can see why you would say that. The thing is, when I try to talk about the positive things that happen I get hit with "You are suffocating him...you are focused only on him.....GAL." So,I don't post a lot of that.
Actually, most problems stem from
me having a hard time moving forward. He has tried, time and time again. I am the one who gets stuck, or wants to rush things along. It reinforces his view of me as the girl who is too emotional, who won't listen.
I back off, he backs off, then one of us comes calling and the whole thing starts again.
Is it healthy? Absolutely NOT.
It is what I am trying to change by coming here.
Let me tell you a dumb story about myself to give you an idea of the person I am:
This morning my son took my car keys to school by accident. (At the time I didn't know this, all I knew was that I could not find them) I didn't have a way to work. I was beyond pissed. Luckily, I live close and can walk, though it would make me late.
I had something very large to take to work with me. It could have waited until tomorrow. But, the "cut off her nose to spite her face" Pam made the brilliant decision to not only walk, but to lug this huge thing that I didn't need to lug. Why? Because I was already mad and miserable and feeling alone.
That is the type of stuff I do. I act rashly and think later. As I left work I pictured how dumb I must have looked in the morning and I had to laugh. It is so typical of who I can be at times. I think it was HappyAgain who once said, "I smell burning martyr." It wasn't about me, but that could easily be said!
I know this side of me exists, and it is what XH does not like the most. It is also what I am trying to change. So, I come here and focus on those things so that I can get input on them. I focus on the negative, in other words.
Now, please don't throw my old words back at me. I do understand that my XH hasn't been the most honest man in the world. I understand that I have no business taking the blame in all of this.
I do know that I need to change this dance in the ways that I can. So, when I post something that is bothering me, it is to learn how to react in a
normal way, not the Pam way.
It may come across as "he's an ass, I hate him..."
I don't. I don't agree with everything he has done, but I understand his reluctance to talk to me. I OVER-REACT. I scare him. So, he keeps me at arm's length.
I could tell him that since I am more in the R than him that I want out, but I know that this will make neither of us happy.
Why do I have to make us both miserable?
In a given day, I am not a miserable person. Yes, I get sad. Yes, I get lonely. Yes, I miss him. Right now, though, I see that building on the positives and quitting the pressure has been what is working. Do I slip up? Yes. But not nearly as often as before.
It may not be what most agree with, but I know myself enough to know that if I go out with the "it will have to be less of an R" speech I will always wonder what could have been.
Right now he is calling, coming by, and actually inviting me into his home. He wanted me to make myself at home--- it was ME who had the problem. I feel that I need to learn to relax around him, and the only way to do that is to be around him more! It is not as if I show up there or anything. Heck, I rarely call him. Contact has been primarily by him.
OT, you are correct that this hasn't been working for me. A lot of what hasn't worked are the things I have been doing though!
Example: he asks me out. We have a great time- even make out like teenagers in the driveway before coming in. Then when he gets ready to leave I pout because I want more. He says,"but we had a good time! You make me feel like no matter what I do I cannot make you happy." That didn't always make sense to me, but it does now.
I ruin my own happiness. It isn't exactly what I wanted, the way I wanted it, so I go for the worst scenario. Kind of like pushing aside a pleasant walk to work in favor of an uncomfortable walk with an awkward item.
I do agree that I am not piecing. BUT, I do believe if I could stop sabotaging things I could have been,many times over.
I don't want to argue where I am. Or what XH wants/doesn't want from me. I don't think I will know that until I can learn to change some behaviors. THINGS I NEED TO CHANGE, things I WANT to change. For me. For my own peace and health. Just because he is the person who pointed these things out to me doesn't mean I am changing them for HIM. If I were, I would have done it a long time ago. I had to get to a place of more confidence.
The other day he remarked, "you are my dream girl."
I fully believe he meant it. Am I resizing my wedding band? No. I know this is just another piece of this puzzle.
Perhaps it will come back to bite me, but I am not ready to give him the big goodbye. I will keep living my life as if he is never coming back, but I will not push him away any more. If he steps away for good it needs to be his doing, not my pushing him away. I do it again and again. I do it out of fear. I do it to keep from getting hurt. I will not do that anymore.
Hey,
Sorry -- I should have been more clear.
I didn't think that you thought you were piecing, I agree that you seem on pretty solid ground there. I was more saying, "noooooooo!!! don't fall into the trap of thinking you are piecing again," because it seemed to me that you were getting encouragement to do so.
As for the rest, you had recently said pretty much that playing the "just friends" or "casual date" role wasn't working for you and that you were not going to do it anymore. If so, then it is best to simply be direct and honest about it.
If instead you want to accept things as they are and give the R a chance to grow, well then, give it a chance to grow by stepping back to a level of commitment/interest that matches that of XH. That doesn't mean giving up, it means accepting reality and building an R based on that reality, and giving XH some space to invest in the R himself.
You carried the big thing to work yourself and didn't give anyone a chance to help. If you carry the R yourself, you don't give XH a place to make it his R too.
P.S. " We have a great time- even make out like teenagers in the driveway before coming in. Then when he gets ready to leave I pout because I want more. He says,"but we had a good time! You make me feel like no matter what I do I cannot make you happy."
FWIW, this sounds totally like he is withholding because he is not free to be in an R with you, probably because of his other Rs. So, his "but we had a good time! You make me feel like no matter what I do I cannot make you happy," sounds a lot like changing the subject/shifting blame to me. He isn't there for you because he isn't there for you, not because you are too demanding. Or, put otherwise, you are too demanding for him because he isn't free, mentally, to give you what you want. Of course, this is just conjecture. But not many men who aren't getting sex are going to put the brakes on heavy petting and say -- oh, enough of that, let's stop now -- unless someone else is holding them back.
She was getting encourgement from me to do so OT. Still will until she tells me to stop.
You don't post here because you want to be divorce, you post here because you want to still be married.
From my point of view Pam has communications problems and so does her husband, and without communication there is no relationship. If both of them are too timid to speak up...then one of them must...and I'm going for the one I can talk to...unless someone wants to drop me her H's email?
OT,
See? I do have communication problems! The rest of the story was that we make out like teenagers in the driveway, go in the house and have sex, and then I pout when he has to leave, or when he leaves without making new plans. I tend to stay away from the TMI.
I don't think this really changes much--
other than to give ya'll another reason to 2x4 me- but we actually have had a pretty good sex life all along. I have stopped because of the other circumstances...if I hadn't it would be a 2, 3, 4+ times a week thing, I am sure.
Yes, communication is at the root of most of our problems. We fall victim to so many misconceptions- both of us. We have both sabatoged many good times because we didn't clear up a MAJOR misconception.
My fear always takes me back to the place of:
What if he really meant this or that and he is using the misconception thing as an excuse? So, things stay very muddied between us.
I am just going to be bold and see where it takes me.
I sent a VERY bold text today.
Very.
So much so that it may take a day or two for him to respond- if he does.
We'll see what happens.
Sooooooooooo..........
What did the text say?
BND!
I am shocked at you! You know my issues with privacy!
As they say-
In for a penny, in for a pound....
(Easy on the 2x4's, all. It is time- that's all I have to say.)Here you go:
I need you to know this, because I don't think you believe it:
I know no other man like you. You have so many qualities that I adore. The past is the past. It is forgiven and that is the truth. I love you, (XH).
No reply yet. I know him. It will take some time. And I am ok with that. Precisely why I sent it. I can wait this time. No expectations, and that is the truth. Matter of fact, I had to run out to my car (in the rain!) to get my phone so I could copy the wording for you here. The old Pam would have been watching that phone like the proverbial pot that never boils....
BND, you have given me a lot to think about. I appreciate your time, patience, and honesty.
(((((((((hugs))))))))))
That was so very brave of you and I am proud of you.
Have no expectations, as this is all new to both of you.
You are changing the steps of the dance!!!!
You go girl!!!!
Bold?
In one aspect yes very , and good for you...I ws thinking more like:
Clothes: floor, you: bed, Don't plan on doing anything else for a few hours.
Well, if it makes you feel better, Jack, I did call yesterday after he had offered me a ride to work (that I declined) to say:
If that ride includes a nooner, I would like to ammend my refusal.
The one thing we have going for this is most certainly this:
He is NOT going to get it anywhere near as good somewhere else as he does here. I am completely confident that he knows this, too. And, that says a lot, since I have little confidence in anything.
Bold?
Clothes: floor, you: bed, Don't plan on doing anything else for a few hours.
I will, however, hold onto this one for future use...
Oh, and one more thing, for my naysayers...
YES, this does change the dance. The dance I have been doing has included not putting myself out there more than he is willing to.
Plain and simple,
I scare him.
It is time to be the safe place.
Jack,
Get your mind out of the gutter......
It's not always about sex!!
OK it's always about sex,
BUT..........
BUT you certainly are in a playful mood. : )
She said Bold...
And then she said no VERY bold...
Of course my mind went to sex.
Yes I am in a good mood.
I start a new job on Monday.
And have spent the past few days relaxing in the sunshine.
And today I took D9 for her last test at the Children's Hospital.
And last night I spoke to Pam who was a delightful Woman.
And Matt got kicked off American Idol.
And I found my brand of smokes for $3.35 a pack.
And I ordered pizza for dinner.
I have nothing to complain about!!
I quit smoking : )
Going out to see the Young Dubliners tonight, going to Nino's for dinner before hand. No kids. : )
Tomorrow going to 'marry' my best friends. Renew their vows.
Congrats on all your good stuff.
except the smoking. :p
Yes I am in a good mood.
Yay, you! I start a new job on Monday.
Now I have to go search where you referenced this. And you were worried???? Congrats!!! And have spent the past few days relaxing in the sunshine.
Pouring rain here... And today I took D9 for her last test at the Children's Hospital.
Fingers crossed for nothing but great news And last night I spoke to Pam who was a delightful Woman.
Back at ya. And Matt got kicked off American Idol.
As long as Danny is still around, it's all good. Wonder how he would feel about the text Jack suggested? And I found my brand of smokes for $3.35 a pack.
The bargain hunter in me still can't condone this! And I ordered pizza for dinner.
Now there's a good idea! I have nothing to complain about!!
Life is good, BND. Today I really, truly mean that. And, still no reply.
Hey Pam, I read through all of this to catch up and have much to say, but very little time. I am trying to get a weeks worth of schoolwork done in 3 days because of musicfest here in Memphis this weekend. I hope to catch you on the flip side at some point and maybe share some thoughts with you. You are in great hands with BND and Jack, so hang in there and stay positive. At the very latest I will catch up with you by Tuesday.
Ian
IAN!
I've been missing you!
(OK, that felt weird, but whatever. I'm all about the honesty now I guess!)
Get your schoolwork done, though I am anxious to hear from you.
Unless its full of 2x4's. I'm a bit sore, you know.
Happy Friday!
Not much going on here. Got a reply to my text, and I look at it as a positive. His reply makes sense to me, anyway.
XH is busy with his dad in town this weekend. Son is going there tomorrow to see his grandpa (no relationship there at all, never has been one), so I am gonna kill 'em with kindness.
The old CMNM would get all weird and touchy with XFIL in town. Now the new one! I am gonna send son with a homemade lemon meringue pie for X-FIL (his favorite) and a treat for XH. They are working hard, after all, and deserve a treat.
I don't expect to see any of them this weekend, and that is fine. When XFIL leaves, XH will call. This time I will listen all about the work they got done, instead of getting all weirded out by him improving his house.
I am not doing this as a scheme, mind you. I am doing it because I was wrong. And I don't want to be the person I was.
Pam...
Yoo hoo....
Where did the old Pam go?
Keep her there...wherever she went, because this new improved version is pretty cool!!!
And lemon meringue pie is my favorite in case you want to drop one off here.
BND,
If I had a way to get them there, you deserve about a million lemon meringue pies from me!!!
Off to the store for ingredients...
Oh, and ya'll better stay on stand-by. The new CMNM is pretty cool, but she tends toward the drama...
Just kidding!!!
Well, I sent over the goodies yesterday (pie for the x-FIL, cookies for XH, and deviled eggs for both). I received a nice thank you call this afternoon (a message- I was in the shower).
Last night I went to a party and then we all made our way to a bar. Remembering last week when XH said he was "on call" for me when I was out, I sent him a text that said, "I'm sooooo drunk. I wish you were here!"
Within minutes he texted back and we went back and forth with some pretty steamy texts. He said if his dad wasn't there he'd be with me in no time.
Our texting ended at about 1 a.m. He called at about noon to thank me for the food and to tell me he hoped I was feeling o.k.
Nothing major to report. Just plugging away at erasing the memories of the old CMNM. Not that I was that bad, but I could have done many things differently.
So, I am getting out and doing things- but I am still working on repairing some things. I think it is best for me to maintain this mix. Indefinitely.
I think that I deserve an A from you, Jack. I know you are all about the sexy texts!
First off,
Hey, Ian, it's WEDNESDAY!
Where are ya, man?
Still feeling a little unsettled, but that is due to my major issue of overanalyzing everything to death. (No, really, Jack, I do that!)
FIL is gone-
XH was here last night for a few hours. He was busy with our youngest, so I didn't talk to him a lot. He was on only 4 hours of sleep from the night before, so keeping my distance was the only wise thing to do.
During the times we did talk, I felt myself pushing a little too much at times (just too many comments that showed I was into this more than him), but I recognized it and knocked it off.
He just called a little bit ago on his way home from work. We talked for about 20 minutes, and I kept it as light as possible. We discussed getting together "soon," but no definite plans were made.
So, the plan for the next million days or so is to stop assuming. I can not live my life wondering what (or who) he is up to! We're gonna have to clear the air at some point--- I guess I will worry about that when the time comes, if it comes. I realize I have to keep up with these nice interactions if that time has any hope of materializing!
One good thing, we talked about him getting a bike (I am beginning bike training) so we can ride together. That would be great. Oh, also, I was getting ready to tell him about a great idea I had of something we could do together, when our son interrupted. As XH got ready to leave, he leaned in and said, "I want to hear about those plans." He correctly assumed that it was something that needed to be said in privacy...
Honestly......
You are making FABULOUS progress!!!!!
I am so darn proud of you...sniff, sniff!
Go me!!!
OK, not yet, but, I am doing lots better. I have gotten here before, only to mess it up, so I am really trying to get a hold on my bad tendencies.
Good news: Last night at about 10:15 p.m. he called me "just to talk." We talked for 45 minutes, and it was really nice. We made plans to go get him a bike this weekend.I am REALLY excited about this. You see, this is something we would have never done before. I am sure he would have wanted to, but when it comes to sports/fitness, I am really intimidated by him, so I tend to not join him (knowing that he will just show me up, or I will just slow him down). These last few years have been all about me getting over irrational fears. That is why I am signed up for a triathalon this summer. I want to quiet the voice in my head that tells me I can't do those things.
Yes, I will slow him down on the bike ride(s), but I bet he won't mind as much as I tell myself he will. So, I will get over it.
I am just thrilled about this happening, and I can't believe that it is me doing it!!!!
Are ya even more proudly teary-eyed now, BND?
SMOOCH!
I want to quiet the voice in my head that tells me I can't do those things.
Quiet it? Why not kill that little sucker? Hunt it down and wear its head as a trophy to scare the next little voice that tries to say you can't do something?
BTW A, and good for you on all of this.
Now is the time for slow methodical and deliberate walking on the path your find yourself on.
First off,
Hey, Ian, it's WEDNESDAY! Where are ya, man?
Well, to be honest still recovering from a weekend of drinking, watching the likes of Elvis Costello, Los Lobos, George Clinton and the parliament Funkadelic, SNOOP DOGG, G-love and the special sauce, and Rise Against in the pouring rain. I have been sick and a bit hungover for about 4 days.
Still feeling a little unsettled, but that is due to my major issue of overanalyzing everything to death.
Please go read what I posted to Trapt and change the names to match your sitch.......
So, the plan for the next million days or so is to stop assuming.
And this my dear is what my main topic of discussion was going to be with you. I have meant to say this before to you because every post of yours that I was reading had some form or another of assumption or self fulfilling prophecy encased in it. Your tendency is to not be able to stay in the moment and focus on the task at hand. You seem to over analyze your actions to death rather than simply doing what you feel is right and dealing with the results as they come up.
I also want to make sure that you keep in mind the delicate pendulum of pursuit. Make sure it is going both ways evenly and that you are not always the one initiating. You have earned for him to be pursuing more to be honest. He should be the one suggesting things that the two of you can do together and initiating time together.
Do not lose yourself in the quest, that would be a horrible thing to lose.......
Ian
Well, to be honest still recovering from a weekend of drinking, watching the likes of Elvis Costello, Los Lobos, George Clinton and the parliament Funkadelic, SNOOP DOGG, G-love and the special sauce, and Rise Against in the pouring rain. I have been sick and a bit hungover for about 4 days.
Pshhht. What kind of excuse is this?
Well, I read your post to Trapt, and if i disregard the times you called him the P word (I try not to say that one, unless...well, nevermind) and the advice to grow a pair, I guess you're right, it's what I needed to hear.
Honestly, Ian, it is so hard for me to not let the littlest thing affect my attitude. But, I am very aware of what this has done for me, and I am trying very hard to change this about myself. I know that I assume way too many things. I am sure that what I am assuming is rarely even close to the truth. I take the worst case scenario to the next level at times! I am quite sure there is a way to stay aware (not too naive), yet not conjure up horrible ideas of what
could happen.
I hear you on the pursuit thing, and I appreciate your concern. He needs to ask me out, I know this. I will wait and see this weekend if he brings up the bike shopping. It's not much, but it's a start. I need to be able to be happy Pam around him--- I haven't been that person in a long time. I just want to hang out, talk about nothing, and enjoy each other's company. I have been putting far too much weight on each interaction. I have lost myself in trying to be perfect.
Ian, thank you.
I really think I am on my way to something much better. And I am saying that, and meaning it, even though there is no guarantee that XH is included.