Turning the Page - DivorceBusting.com

So, I locked my own thread. Just number two for me.

Well, she peeked out of the tunnel this morning and spewed all over me before running back in. (EEEWwwww, I just showered.) She had her state mandated "parenting class" last night, I think that had a lot to do with it.

I'm kind of journaling here while it's fresh.

I was helping the boys get dressed, and S6 started crying over not having the socks he wanted. (really over fears and anxiety that he can't express.) I had him in my lap and was talking to him when she came into the room. She interrupted us and asked him why he was crying, I told her "It's nothing, it's taken care of." Lately she has been doing that when I am dealing with him, it's not concern so much as trying to take over what I am doing with him. This screws up what I am doing with him, so I am going to set my first boundary here. (another milestone.)

Anyway, I asked her to talk in the other room. I told her that I was handling the situation, and please don't interrupt what I am doing. Her reply was "you always do that to me." (not.) Then she said "I know you think I don't care about them, and that I don't think this D is going to hurt them, and that I don't think it's important, but I do."

I said "I think it's the most important thing there is, but I don't want to fight with you." I went back and finished getting them ready.

Later while I was making breakfast she approached me and said "I'm not trying to start a fight, but I have to say this. I think it is worse for children to grow up in a house where one spouse doesn't love the other one, and they are exposed to fighting all the time." (we almost never fought in front of them.)

I said "all right, I understand, but I have something to say as well."

"I understand that this is how you feel, and in some cases, I could say that's valid. But in our case, I don't believe that it is. I don't feel that there is anything in our marriage that is irreparable."

"I understand that you don't love me. I understand why you think that this is the best thing for you. I agree that this might be the best thing for you to do. I understand that you are going through a lot right now, and that you are unhappy. I know that there are a lot of things going on with you that you haven't told me about, but I know that these things exist and are hard for you."

"This is not what's best for me. I know that you think it is because you have said that in the past. But it is not. This is the worst thing for me. Please don't pretend that it is or say that to me or other people."

"I chose to love you. I still choose to love you. I haven't changed my mind about that. I believe that there is a lot of choice involved in love. I understand that you have chosen not to love me but that is your choice."

"The boys don't have a say in this decision. I know you think this is better for them, but I respectfully disagree. I believe that this is the worst thing possible for them."

I'm not trying to make you feel guilty, or change your mind. I don't think it would be better if you stayed out of guilt."

After that, it went straight downhill. She was accusing me of blaming her, and the alien spew started in earnest. Things like "You have never understood me," "you always disregard what I say," "you don't respect me."

I told her that I did respect who she was, that she is smart successful, and capable, and that I respected her more than anyone else I know. I realized that this was arguing, not listening, so I asked her what do I do that makes you feel I disregard you?

She broke it off and left the room.

I left it alone.

I think what she heard me say was "you're wrong and this is all your fault."

I need an MLC interpreter

I suppose that this was backsliding and pushing, but she initiated the subject twice, and I did feel like I needed to say those things calmly once and for all.

I write letters to her, edit them a few times, look for anger and other unwanted emotions in them, and tear them up.

Most of what I said was from a letter I have been editing lately. I think I would have done a better job if I could have given it to her instead of talking.

I don't think it was backsliding or pushing AT ALL. I think what you said was valid and she needed to hear it. Hopefully she didn't just hear it, but listened as well. Time will tell.

I hated the "I don't love you anymore" and I know how much that hurts. Wish I could give you a hug!!

Thanks RHW. I needed to say it for me at some point before the D happens. Calmly, not in a heated argument, so she could hear it.

She probably didn't, I think she had her MLC-Muffs on.

She was spoiling for a fight, (we all know our spouses signs for that,) but I didn't give in.

What a hateful phrase that is. I hope I never hurt anyone that badly.

What's the count? There should be a little ticker by your name counting down the time.

You're the bomb.

(((RHW)))

Happy Thanksgiving everyone. (In the US.

)

25 days to go! Having a rough time right now though -- more details over on my thread in Piecing, but I'll get over it/through it.

Hope you have a good turkey day too $\:\)$ We get off @ noon today and I am SO looking forward to a nap this afternoon w/ no children in the house $\:\)$

Just wanted to say again, though, that I think you did very well w/ the convo w/ your W!

theforlornhope,

There was no backslide there. If that dialogue is an accurate description of what happened I rather feel it is an excellent example of how to have a discussion, validate while disagreeing and show your spouse this is not what you want. Others shold read it to learn how to do it.

And backsliding, that's not always bad either...or what people think is backsliding. Sometimes oyu've got to push, you've got to vent at your spouse...because venting here isn't getting the message to them.

She reacted and you responded. Beautiful. Every action has an opposite and equal reaction. MLCers react; it is something done an autopilot. You responded with forethought. And her reactions were waht we can expect right now...of course she accused of not validating and such. Your job is to remain consistent through that. Reacting is biting the bait and allowing an argument to escalate. Responding is letting her stand there and argue while you don't. She will think you had an argument, but thse won't relaize she had one with her Self only.
Hopefully she will catch on and stop trying to push more to find your weak spot. She may then find someone else who will react or stop pushing and move on to other tactics.

You did well; ver well.

HUGS,
RCR

FH,

Nah man you did fine. You could have shortened it up a little bit, but heh, I'm arm chair quarterbacking here.

I detect a little pride in your confrontation?
It's ok we all feel that way when it happens.

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I'm not trying to start a fight, but

She opened the door, she put men on the border.

Your response was excellent, a bit wordy...you sure you were a marine? j/k man.

As for taking thoughts from you letter. That is actually a pretty good tactic, you have already crafted these thoughts and gone over them in your head, these are not spur of the moment words, if you are going to backslide, a controlled backslide is the best way to go. Logically rather than an emotionally fueld backslide that may take you to the base of the mountain.

And as RC said, I do not think this was a backslide.
If the MLC is going to open the door...
You can open it, or depending on the situation, come through with a room sweeper.

BTW, Bob Seger, or Metallica's cover? Nice title either way.

I would have to vote for Bob Seger

tfh, I agree with everyone. I had a similar convo with my W. She started seeing a C the following month and has gone every week since. Was it related to what I said to her? She had said the kids and I needed to see a therapist to get over this and I finally said you keep telling us to see a therapist when you are the one that has chosen an alternative lifestyle betraying your faith and leaving the husband and children that love you. You really need to see a therapist.

Was it wrong? Probably. But I was beat up so many times and she needs to see a therapist. Since then I am very quiet even when she is blaming me.

Just checking in. Hope you had a good day.

Checking in again. Where are you?

Sorry everyone, I should have posted that I was w/o internet while I was in St Louis. I was going to, but I was rushing around so much trying to beat an incoming ice storm, I missed it.

I just about went through withdrawal BTW.

Being with family was nice, yet also the expected downer, talk about the D sit. of course. I also really missed my kids and my wife. I did get to eat way too much great food though.

Visiting with my old USMC buddies was also awesome, ate too much, indulged a tiny hair too much, stayed up late and BSed WAY too much.

Thanks everyone for the replies. I really appreciate it. It's unbelieveable how much this board helps. You guys are the greatest.

RHW, thanks for the encouragement, (it really helps.) and checking up on me, I love hearing your positive outlook. I know exactly what you mean about a nap. My boys don't like to take them anymore, I wish I could trade them.

RCR, thank you, I really appreciate your help. That was as close to verbatim as I could remember. It would not have been anywhere near as well thought out, and constructive (or less-damaging?) if I hadn't been in the process of editing one of those letters I mentioned above. Most of what I said came from that. I think that the timing was about perfect there, but also, I had clarified my thoughts, and identified and removed angry / accusatory words and phrases. I could have done better, but past experience shows I could have done a LOT worse.

Jack, thanks man, and I could have shortened it up a LOT, but she didn't give me enough time to finish editing my letter. $\:D$

I think I did feel proud, (and frightened about pushing,) but I am mostly proud of the way that I conducted myself. THIS is who I am, not the "please don't do this to me and the kids" guy.

LMAO, a bit wordy, yeah, ESPECIALLY for a Marine. We usually speak fluent monosyllables and profanity.

I haven't heard Metallica's version yet, so Segar.

MMF, thanks, I think I need to keep quiet about it now too. I've said it as calmly and quietly as I can, more would probably just be pushing unless she opens the door on the subject with less anger.

I would love to see her begin counseling, but I also worry about her finding the "do what makes you feel good" type of counselor. I'm starting to expect that my S6 might need counseling after the D. I am considering a children's group or art therapy type approach if he does.

Thanks again to all four of you. I hope that you had an excellent holliday, as much as possible.

I know what you mean about counseling of some sort for the boys. I had the same thoughts when going through my sitch. I knew my oldest (S7) was going to need something. They are so much smarter and intuitive than we sometimes give them credit for.

As for me -- well, I don't know how positive I'm being of late. I'm just having a "down on Red" time right now for some reason. Hopefully it will get better in 3 wks time $\:\)$

The cordial friendliness seems to have disappeared since our separate Thanksgiving holidays. I'm not sure why, but it has gone back to anger / calm / anger, etc.

Yesterday I was in a great mood listening to music and fixing dinner when she came home. It seemed to put her in a bad mood. I tried to ignore it. She was nasty with S4 over lotion for his face, and I had to stop dinner and carry him around for a while to stop the crying. When he calmed down, I got his lotion and finished dinner. After dinner, it was a race to do the dishes. Normally my job, but as before with who gets them dressed, she has become possessive over their caretaking / housekeeping. I've always been proud to do AMAP, but recently it's a competition with her. Since she beat me to the dishes, I asked her "do you want to do the dishes or give them a bath. Her reply was a very loaded, "whatever you want to do." I opted for the bath. As I went into the master, (her,) bedroom, I saw the much guarded cell phone on the dresser. Alone. Unattended. Calling me like a still beating heart. Without her....... I left it there.

After their bath, I brought them downstairs for 30 min before bed. She fairly raced up the stairs and spent the next 15 Min in her bedroom. I wonder what I should have been snooping for that I missed.

I started watching television, and she went to bed about 15 min after the boys. Screw it, I watched a good western anyway. At least she said "goodnight" for once.

Anyway, this morning she was alternately angry and nice about every 5 min. Very weird. I ignored it and acted as-if. During breakfast she asked me about #####, (S4's namesake,) a Marine I saw last week. I said he was fine, then I said, "Actually he's not fine. He's having a very bad time right now because his fiance' is dumping him. He financed her new business, bought her a truck, and took the promotion to (other state,) on the understanding that she was coming out there. Since then, she has started hanging around with party friends, and esp. one guy who is 'just a friend' that she sees regularly. She has decided she doesn't "love him anymore," and he is having a hard time of it. He also has a $16,000 engagement ring that he doesn't know what to do with now."

This is our sit in a nutshell before kids, and why I started not to say anything.

She said, "he should have bought her a ring on the cheap."

Wow.

I said "##### doesn't do things on the cheap, he financed her business and bought her a car, he loves her." Then I went outside to start her car.

Wow.

I got S4 ready, (she takes him to daycare.) cleaned up, started her car for her, etc. She got angry about several things with the kids and me, but esp. about not being able to find her keys, (I started her car to melt ice and warm it up.) She managed to say "thank you," about warming up her car, but just barely.

Tonight she was pretty civil, but very distant / cold. I left for bed early, it was a long day at work and I'm too tired for that.

I wonder if we're not just exhibiting a muted version of our old vicious cycle of anger / withdrawal. I need to figure out a way not to continue that if that's what it is.

I am throwing myself wholeheartedly into GAL, and acting as-if, but it makes her angry.

It makes me feel so much better about myself. I am doing it for me, for my reasons. Truly acting as-if for the last few weeks makes me feel at peace. I'm doing what I can, the best I can, and I know it!

I do take some satisfaction that she is angry about it, since so many experienced people here say that anger is not bad, the opposite of love isn't anger, it is indifference.

I don't think I am doing this for the wrong reasons, but sometimes I doubt myself and wonder if I'm not "taking the high road" just to make her feel bad.

I don't think so, but her anger, (over guilt?) makes me feel guilty. Wierd, conceited, and paranoid, I suppose.

Anyway, it feels right, so I'm not stopping. I just wish I could break the cycle of one of us often avoiding the other in the evenings.

RHW, I hope that S6 won't need it, but I am afraid he will.

The cordial friendliness seems to have disappeared since our separate Thanksgiving holidays. I'm not sure why, but it has gone back to anger / calm / anger, etc.

Yesterday I was in a great mood listening to music and fixing dinner when she came home. It seemed to put her in a bad mood. I tried to ignore it. She was nasty with S4 over lotion for his face, and I had to stop dinner and carry him around for a while to stop the crying. When he calmed down, I got his lotion and finished dinner. After dinner, it was a race to do the dishes. Normally my job, but as before with who gets them dressed, she has become possessive over their caretaking / housekeeping. I've always been proud to do AMAP, but recently it's a competition with her. Since she beat me to the dishes, I asked her "do you want to do the dishes or give them a bath. Her reply was a very loaded, "whatever you want to do." I opted for the bath. As I went into the master, (her,) bedroom, I saw the much guarded cell phone on the dresser. Alone. Unattended. Calling me like a still beating heart. Without her....... I left it there.

After their bath, I brought them downstairs for 30 min before bed. She fairly raced up the stairs and spent the next 15 Min in her bedroom. I wonder what I should have been snooping for that I missed.

I started watching television, and she went to bed about 15 min after the boys. Screw it, I watched a good western anyway. At least she said "goodnight" for once.

Anyway, this morning she was alternately angry and nice about every 5 min. Very weird. I ignored it and acted as-if. During breakfast she asked me about #####, (S4's namesake,) a Marine I saw last week. I said he was fine, then I said, "Actually he's not fine. He's having a very bad time right now because his fiance' is dumping him. He financed her new business, bought her a truck, and took the promotion to (other state,) on the understanding that she was coming out there. Since then, she has started hanging around with party friends, and esp. one guy who is 'just a friend' that she sees regularly. She has decided she doesn't "love him anymore," and he is having a hard time of it. He also has a $16,000 engagement ring that he doesn't know what to do with now."

This is our sit in a nutshell before kids, and why I started not to say anything.

She said, "he should have bought her a ring on the cheap."

Wow.

I said "##### doesn't do things on the cheap, he financed her business and bought her a car, he loves her." Then I went outside to start her car.

Wow.

I got S4 ready, (she takes him to daycare.) cleaned up, started her car for her, etc. She got angry about several things with the kids and me, but esp. about not being able to find her keys, (I started her car to melt ice and warm it up.) She managed to say "thank you," about warming up her car, but just barely.

Tonight she was pretty civil, but very distant / cold. I left for bed early, it was a long day at work and I'm too tired for that.

I wonder if we're not just exhibiting a muted version of our old vicious cycle of anger / withdrawal. I need to figure out a way not to continue that if that's what it is.

I am throwing myself wholeheartedly into GAL, and acting as-if, but it makes her angry.

It makes me feel so much better about myself. I am doing it for me, for my reasons. Truly acting as-if for the last few weeks makes me feel at peace. I'm doing what I can, the best I can, and I know it!

I do take some satisfaction that she is angry about it, since so many experienced people here say that anger is not bad, the opposite of love isn't anger, it is indifference.

I don't think I am doing this for the wrong reasons, but sometimes I doubt myself and wonder if I'm not "taking the high road" just to make her feel bad.

I don't think so, but her anger, (over guilt?) makes me feel guilty. Wierd, conceited, and paranoid, I suppose.

Anyway, it feels right, so I'm not stopping. I just wish I could break the cycle of one of us often avoiding the other in the evenings.

oops

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I saw the much guarded cell phone on the dresser. Alone. Unattended. Calling me like a still beating heart. Without her....... I left it there.

Big HUGS for you! You didn't miss anything.

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She said, "he should have bought her a ring on the cheap."

Wow is right. It makes me wonder how little she things of herself esp right now.

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I do take some satisfaction that she is angry about it, since so many experienced people here say that anger is not bad, the opposite of love isn't anger, it is indifference.

Anger doesn't scare me...indifference does. It's nothing.

It's really hard when they don't respond or do it in an angry way that makes you feel like you're falling into old patterns. While my H and I didn't really argue or fight, one of the things I do now if he's angry is to ask him if he wants to talk about it. If he raises his voice to me, I calmly ask why he's yelling at me? It points out the behavior in a different way and while he usually withdraws, I feel good that I've taken a different action and one that works for me. I know he's thinking when he withdraws, I see the little wheels turning.

Fhope,

Hey Marine, you holding up well?

I have an affinity for you jar heads. Historically, the Coast Guards' only Medal of Honor recipient Douglas Munro:

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The landing craft had meanwhile been readied at Lunga Point Base. Again, virtually the same boats that had put the Marines on the beach were assembled to extract them. Douglas Munro, who had taken charge of the original landing, volunteered to lead the boats back to the beach. None of these boats were heavily armed or well protected. For instance, Munro's Higgin's boat had a plywood hull, it was slow, vulnerable to small arms fire, and was armed only with two air-cooled .30 caliber Lewis machine guns.

As Munro led the boats ashore the Japanese fired on the small craft from Point Cruz, the ridges abandoned by the Marines, and from positions east of the beach. This intense fire from three strong interlocking positions disrupted the landing and caused a number of casualties among the virtually defenseless crews in the boats. Despite the intense fire Munro led the boats ashore. Reaching the shore in waves, Munro led them to the beach two or three at a time to pick up the Marines. Munro and Petty Officer Raymond Evans provided covering fire from an exposed position on the beach.

As the Marines reembarked, the Japanese pressed toward the beach making the withdrawal more dangerous with each second. The Monssen and Leslie's Douglas "Dauntless" dive bomber provided additional cover for the withdrawing Marines. The Marines arrived on the beach to embark on the landing craft while the Japanese kept up a murderous fire from the ridges about 500 yards from the beach. Munro, seeing the dangerous situation, maneuvered his boat between the enemy and those withdrawing to protect the remnants of the battalion. Successfully providing cover, all the Marines including twenty-five wounded managed to escape.

With all the Marines safely in the small craft, Munro and Evans steered their LCP off shore. As they passed towards Point Cruz they noticed an LCT full of Marines grounded on the beach. Munro steered his craft and directed another tank lighter to pull it off. Twenty minutes later, the craft was free and heading to sea. Before they could get far from shore, the Japanese set up a machine gun and began firing at the boats. Evans saw the fire and shouted a warning to Munro. The roar of the boat's engine, however, prevented Munro from hearing and a single bullet hit him in the base of the skull. Petty Officer Munro died before reaching the operating base, but due to his extraordinary heroism, outstanding leadership and gallantry, Munro posthumously received the Medal of Honor.

Personally:

War games with you guys going up against the navy with our small boats and getting you undetected on some of the Navy Bases. : ) It was always fun to see your reactions to the fact that our side arms were hot. And our inability to understand why all your ammo clips had so much duct tape on them they looked like nerf footballs.

And while I suffered some pretty massive injuries from an incident in a bar that happened because of a Marine, it was also my Marine buddies that pulled me out. No, not a fight with a Marine, he just did something stupid and the locals thought I had done it.

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I wonder if we're not just exhibiting a muted version of our old vicious cycle of anger / withdrawal. I need to figure out a way not to continue that if that's what it is.

Good for you. Figure this out. It will be vital, realizing that there is a problem, or was is the first step to correcting it.

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I am throwing myself wholeheartedly into GAL, and acting as-if, but it makes her angry.

Her being angry is ok. You cannot control that. You might be able to mitigate it, but again, GAL is for you, as long as the responsibilites are still equal. Make sense?
If you GALing is leaving her to do everything...then, well that isn't exactly fair. No MLC is not fair, but do not take advantage of it. Remember you want to be an example of consitency and stability, what she is missing, not what she wants to get away from.

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It makes me feel so much better about myself. I am doing it for me, for my reasons. Truly acting as-if for the last few weeks makes me feel at peace. I'm doing what I can, the best I can, and I know it!

I do take some satisfaction that she is angry about it, since so many experienced people here say that anger is not bad, the opposite of love isn't anger, it is indifference.

Agreed. Anger is emotion, and passion in the wrong focus.

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I don't think I am doing this for the wrong reasons, but sometimes I doubt myself and wonder if I'm not "taking the high road" just to make her feel bad.

I don't think so, but her anger, (over guilt?) makes me feel guilty. Wierd, conceited, and paranoid, I suppose.

Are you going 'overboard' with the high road? Are you competing with her over the attention of the children? I speak from experience when I say I compared myself to my wife and yes to some degree there was a competition. I toned it down a little but kept having fun while still maintaining discipline with my boys. Be careful. Be very careful, it is an easy trap to fall into using our children as tools in this. Even if all you are doing is loving them more or paying more attention to them, looking over you shoulder to see if she notices.

Because if you do that...you have to keep it up, if you manage to increase your time with your children they sure as hell are going to notice if/when it slacks off because a gaol was achieved.

I am not saying you are doing this. This is just a heads up.

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Anyway, it feels right, so I'm not stopping. I just wish I could break the cycle of one of us often avoiding the other in the evenings.

Do you want to be alone or would you like some company?
Do you want to play backgammon? (insert game she likes)

Open a door, a small door. But expect nothing. Keep it light, watch one of her shows with her.

I do have a question.
Did/does you wife ever feel left out because of your brotherhood with your buddies? Has she ever felt slighted or second best to them?

Grace, thank you! I know that stupid thing shouldn't even tempt me, but it does. Clearly I have some work to do on detaching yet. Sometimes I feel very detached, sometimes I don't. Like that old almond joy commercial. Only it's sometimes I feel like I'm nuts, sometimes I don't.

I wonder too. I guess the self esteem issues are wrapped up with her feeling like she has no control over her own life. It doesn't make sense, but then I'm sane..... I think.

Occasionally she tries to act indifferent, and it scares the crap outta me when she does a good job with it.

We almost never fought until the IDLYA and OM bomb 2.5 yrs ago, fought a LOT for about 5 months, (my fault that,) and off and on since as the MLC behaviors / D bombs came up.

I'm finally getting to a good point with her anger, and not letting it push my buttons so much.

Me not letting her push my buttons is a BIG 180 for me.

How's your puppy Grace?

Thinking about her anger brings up a dilemma I'm facing.

We agree over next to nothing in the D settlement issues.

She wants over 3/4 of our nest egg, to keep her bonuses and stock options from this year, to sell the house at almost a loss, (Moving the kids out of their "home," not to mention me w/ no down payment, her with bonuses and the nest egg, $;\)$ ) to move both of us into town, to change the kid's school district, to keep the new car and leave me the one with 130000 miles on it. (at least it's paid for, but that hurts me in the balance sheet for the retirement money.)

Obviously I have a dramatically different view. Especially when it comes to moving the boys and changing school districts right now.

Anyway, she is angry over me not agreeing with her on all of this.

I think this is because she built up an idea in her head over several months about how all of this was going to pan out as her perfect little world, and my disagreement throws a MAJOR wrench into that.

I suppose she thought I was going to simply vanish after the D. No ideas about what's right for the kids, no retirement, no house, etc.

Besides the finances, if I can keep the boys here, and she does move into town, it's the opposite direction from her job which would mean about 1.5 hr commute each way for the weeks that she has the boys. I think this is the biggest part of it.

I'm the wrench thrower all right.

How on earth can I DB around that or minimize it? It will seem to her that I am wrecking her "world."

She's gonna be PIST after the next settlement conference. Probably next week.

I guess I'll just act as if and say "I'm sorry we disagree about what's best for the boys, and about what's equitable for us. I have to do what I think is best for them, also, my financial ability to take care of them is part of that."

Anybody got any other ideas on dealing with that? Or on validating her if / when I say this?

Jack, WOW, Petty Officer Munro was amazing. One man like that sure can make a difference. What a service to those Marines and this country.

Marines and bar-fights, like cookies and milk.

Sorry about a low G2 Marine starting it. I'm glad they helped out and nothing permanent happened.

Man your posts always make me THINK.

I think it is part of that cycle of withdrawal. I'm falling back into it again.

Last night I stayed up with her watching tv until she went to bed. She read a book, no conversation. I'll try again tonight.

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GAL is for you, as long as the responsibilites are still equal. Make sense?
If you GALing is leaving her to do everything...then, well that isn't exactly fair. No MLC is not fair, but do not take advantage of it. Remember you want to be an example of consitency and stability, what she is missing, not what she wants to get away from.

That makes perfect sense. Before she stopped going out cold turkey about 3 weeks ago, it was pretty balanced. Now I've cut back on being gone, Bible study one night, hunt or go out one night. I also try to take the boys out to do something at least one evening or weekend morning.

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Are you competing with her over the attention of the children? I speak from experience when I say I compared myself to my wife and yes to some degree there was a competition. I toned it down a little but kept having fun while still maintaining discipline with my boys. Be careful. Be very careful, it is an easy trap to fall into using our children as tools in this.

There is some of this competition, but it is mostly from her. Previously we've had pretty well defined roles with the boys, with some crossover. Lately, I feel like she's been competing with me to show she's a good mom, or to try to "win them over to her more." For example, I usually am the one who picks them up if they get hurt or emotional. Recently, she will interfere while I am dealing with it. This is something we rarely did to each other before. It's wierd too, because she sounds fake when she is doing it, like that aunt you could tell really didn't like kids, asking what's wrong. She doesn't sound like that when she is comforting them, just when she is interrupting me. Wierd.

I am already pretty close to them, but maybe I'm being different by being more patient and sensitive to them since I think S6 is starting to have trouble with the sit. (I still maintain discipline, but I have been trying to give more latitude for acting out.) Perhaps that is making her feel that I am being competitive.

Good heads up, I need to keep an eye on this. It's what started the "argument" last week.

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Do you want to be alone or would you like some company?
Do you want to play backgammon? (insert game she likes)

Open a door, a small door. But expect nothing. Keep it light, watch one of her shows with her.

I like this, we did a little of this a few weeks ago, like renting movies, but it has slacked off. I need to gently start back up on my end.

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I do have a question.
Did/does you wife ever feel left out because of your brotherhood with your buddies? Has she ever felt slighted or second best to them?

Oh boy, this might be a 2x4 moment.

I don't know. I never even considered the question.

I truly don't know. She has never indicated that she has felt that way or even broached the topic.

We've been pretty far geographically for them for the last 7 years, rare visits, phone calls, etc. Before that we did see them regularly.

But she definately knows how tight we are.

She doesn't have friends like that, in fact not too many friends at all. She has always seemed to have trouble making friends. Often, only with the wives of my friends.

Wow, you sure can make me think.

Thanks bro.

Hey buddy, I was catching up on your sitch and a lot of thoughts came to mind; direct personal experiences, experiences from other people I know, things I have read, classes I have taken, etc. I read like crazy. Always have. The sad thing was that I avoided the bible for a very long time. I have no idea why except maybe I wasn't ready to take in what it had to say. To me the bible is like the ultimate 2x4, wrapped in love.

tfh, I can almost accurately determine a person's character and if they are genuine during one or two conversations. Posting on an anonymous board makes it difficult because you cannot hear how a person speaks, what they say, the conviction and the hesitation that can occur either on the phone or in person. Our conversation the other day told me that you are a person that means what they say and that your concern for your wife is very real. What I mean is that you are not reacting to this situation simply because of the moment. You really care about her and what happens between you two. Let me know if I am wrong about this.

My point is that your wife and all of our spouses for that matter, live for the moment. None of them are planners. They think they are. They have these fantasies in their minds about how wonderful their lives would be if they could only dump their current spouse. We have caused all of their problems or so they believe. In most cases, the children are not directly included in this fantasy that their current situation is horrible and must be jettisoned at all costs. I say that the children are not "blamed" but in so many of the situations here, I have seen the children hurt over and over again. When the parent that has "lost their mind" makes their irrational choice to break up the family, the kids are simply collateral damage to the needs of the parent. Any which way you look at it, whether the parent ignores the children completely or if they are around the children, they are still not thinking of the children.

As our spouses "live for the moment" we need to think long term. That can be very challenging as our spouses can spew or do other things that are completely and morally objectionable. I know I feel like I need to defend myself, especially with the rewriting of history that is common. When I think about where I am going to be one year or more down the road, I think about how I would have wanted to handle the confrontations and other issues regarding my family. Even if my M is not restored, I know eventually that my W will think about how everything transpired and how I conducted myself.

I believe what I have read that the decision to permanently end the M rests on the LBS. So much evidence shows that most of the MLCers and other WAS eventually realize their mistakes and wish they could repair the damage to the R [b]BUT[/], in most cases, the LBS has "moved on" and is no longer available, either emotionally or physically.

TFH, I wanted to respond to some of your comments in several of your posts.

When you said that you are concerned that when you are taking the "high road" it may be for suspect reasons, I would not worry about it. I have heard from so many people that we could be considerd "holier-than-thou" or "controlling" or "superior" and that is typically a bunch of...well, you know! If you are doing the right thing, for the right reasons, there is nothing wrong with it. If you are taking the high road because you want to change and you love your family, you have nothing to worry about. Everyone can buy into their own press but don't worry if you momentarily feel proud of yourself. When that happens, put it into perspective that you are not doing it for yourself only but for your family, and forget about it.

Regarding the anger and indifference argument, there is a lot to be said about the accuracy of your comments and responses that you receive. For those out there where the spouse seems indifferent at times, don't let that make you think that your spouse is over you. They are all over the place emotionally and some are so depressed that they almost become a person that lacks nearly all emotions. So, even someone who seems indifferent may either be in a severe depression or they may have a lot of distractions removing you from their vision.

Sorry for the long post but I really admire you for handling things so well.

Quote:

I like this, we did a little of this a few weeks ago, like renting movies, but it has slacked off. I need to gently start back up on my end.

Be consitstent in your changes if they are good ones.

I cannot state how much I agree with Jack.

If I was changing to meet my Ws current desires, I would be sleeping around with many differnt women, getting tattoos (nothing wrong with tats -- just not for me $\:\)$ ), partying and even possibly a bizarre R with her.

I am making changes in my life that I need to make for myself by doing the right thing. Long term, I believe, she will appreciate that I didn't give into these types of temptations but for now, I believe it really aggravates her. I still am doing these things for myself and to be a role model for my children.

Quote:

Marines and bar-fights, like cookies and milk. Sorry about a low G2 Marine starting it. I'm glad they helped out and nothing permanent happened.

5 metal plates, 9.5 hours of reconstructive surgery, but I have my birthday still. : ) And honestly, if not for Pvt Windham I wouldn't be here today. He was too small to take on the four thugs, but he got reinforcements damn quick. : )

That incident made me re-evalute my life, so I cannot be angry about it, Karma and I am a better person for it. Plus I got to pull the best ever practical joke on my mom using a microwave because of it.

Holy cow man, you are one tuff SOB! That sounds like a lot more than a bar fight. That original low-G2 Marine must have said something REALLY stupid. Pvt Winham must have got that guy's share of intelligence, thank God. I hope the reinforcments were thorough.

I'm imagining the possibilities for that joke.

Quote:

Let me know if I am wrong about this.

You're not. If I'm wrong about the MLC, and she finds true happiness with someone else, I can accept that for me. I still have trouble swallowing it for my sons, but that is not my decision to make.

I guess part of what makes the whole thing tough for me is that I identify myself with the family unit. The family is greater than the sum of the parts. The good of the family is more important than what I want. I think that is what I can't understand about her thinking.

Quote:

They have these fantasies in their minds about how wonderful their lives would be if they could only dump their current spouse.

That's exactly what I meant when I said I suppose she thinks I'm just going to disappear after the D.

Quote:

the kids are simply collateral damage to the needs of the parent.

This is why I asked her to give me custody. I have no "real" grounds, but this is real to me, you, and most of us here. I'm their primary care-giver in the emotional sense, but she has developed a paranoia of what other people think. I believe she is terrified of what people would think of her if she gave up the kids. She almost lost it when her co-workers started asking her if she was having an affair with OM, accusing me of planting rumors. Pretty ironic considering the EA / OM happened at work.

Quote:

in most cases, the LBS has "moved on" and is no longer available, either emotionally or physically.

I don't know precisely how to think about this part. I know that I will be D in about 2 months. My focus now is on GAL for me, so I can be the man I was / want to be after that happens. For me, for my sons, for her if she comes back. I hope that this is something she wants, but I have no control over that. Done.

I intend to stand for my marriage. I hope that I can do this well, and for a long while. I worry about this sometimes, how long can I stand? How much can I take? What is right? I hope that by then I will be "hearing" better than before.

Quote:

Sorry for the long post but I really admire you for handling things so well.

No worries my friend, post as long as you like, I could use the help, and I'm trying to catch up to Jarhead.

I really appreciate your viewpoint, and thanks for the compliment.

I usually overanalyze and think I'm NOT handling things well.

Quote:

I know that I will be D in about 2 months.

No you don't. You think you will, and you should stop that as well. Belief is power.

Quote:

how long can I stand? How much can I take?

More than you ever imagined. It will surprise you and amaze you, honest. I know how proud of myself I was; as ragged and beat as I was, I was and am still proud, and I am willing to bet that you like me have some high measuring sticks to compare that to, both outside, role models, and inside, achievments.

BTW,

Thanks, tough SOB, yeah I'm kinnda hard to kill. : )

My W started the D process back in June and she started talking about it back in Sept of last year right when she dropped the bomb on me. I went from thinking my W was in love with me to D city in one 24 hour period. I am sure that is the same for most here.

Anyway, she and I are stalled at the parenting plan. I am not stalling her. I don't want the D but that is not what is stalling it. She wants me to sign a document that is not accurate. It states that we are sharing the children (I hate how that sounds -- sharing; like they are property) 50/50. I asked her if she was going to have the 50% of the time and she said no. She was going to stay with our current arrangement where the boys come over every other Friday night and sometimes the Saturday night too. Our D almost never goes over and she said that. I asked her for a document that reflects that and she said she couldnt because the kids would think she doesnt want them???? Funny, but I think actions speak louder than words. Anyway, I won't sign the document and she won't accept anything else. So about a month ago she commented I guess that you (me) will be married to me longer like you want. Sheesh! I say I will sign an accurate document and she thinks I am stalling. Maybe I am not the one who is stalling $;\)$

So, Jack is right. You may not be D in two months. Wait and see what happens.

TFH - My H will not be happy that I am not blindly accepting his property settlement proposal. He says it is fair and if we can not use lawyers - that would be better.

Right.

RCR gave me good advice. He will spew. He will react like a child who hasn't gotten his own way. Let him. Let my lawyer deal with this.

I understand wanting to DB...but you have to protect yourself. Let her be angry. Just don't reflect her emotion.

Jack,

Quote:

No you don't. You think you will, and you should stop that as well. Belief is power.

Of all the thought provoking things to say!

I've been struggling with this since I read it.

Really struggling. Believing that way was helping me cope. Helping me get through preparing for the D settlement logistics. I actually got a little irritated when I read it. $;\)$

The light bulb finally came on. When we used to plan missions, we would have tons of contingency plans. We never got bent or just went straight to end-game. (Like I have been.)

Something else that drew a strong parrallel, on our debriefing, we would NEVER say to G2, I saw such-and-such. We would say I saw what "appeared to be" such-and-such, and give a detailed description or sketch.

I would like to revise my post.

It appears that I will be divorced in several weeks.

The mission isn't over yet.

Man am I glad you're hard to kill. I wish I had had you on my team.

MMF,

Quote:

I went from thinking my W was in love with me to D city in one 24 hour period. I am sure that is the same for most here.

Oh man. I can't believe the amount of pain floating around out there.

Quote:

I asked her for a document that reflects that and she said she couldnt because the kids would think she doesnt want them???? Funny, but I think actions speak louder than words.

My W's (I'm not caling her STBXW anymore, see post above!) stated reason for leaving is to find that "romantic spark with someone else." I don't see where the boys fit into this.

I asked her for full custody with any visitation she wanted. She refused in a dramatic way. Our MC advised that the "societal pressures" on her probably prevented her from agreeing even if that is what she would like. Her parents, co-workers, friends and peers, etc. would look down on any "woman who gave up custody of her kids."

I put some weight to this since she is rabidly paranoid about what other people think as far as our divorce being caused by her and OM.

I am fortunate in my state that I will probably get 50% physical custody regardless. I hope that as things get more "time consuming" for her, I will have them more, regardless of the decree.

Quote:

So about a month ago she commented I guess that you (me) will be married to me longer like you want. Sheesh! I say I will sign an accurate document and she thinks I am stalling. Maybe I am not the one who is stalling

Ssswwwweeeeeeeeeeeeeettttttttt!

Does dragging feet count as baby steps???

Quote:

Wait and see what happens.

Check!

TFH - I read your post on my thread and took the liberty of changing your sig line. It sounded too hopeless. See how you like....

$;\)$

AmyC

W8ing,

I'm in the same boat as far as the settlement issues.

Quote:

My H will not be happy that I am not blindly accepting his property settlement proposal.

In the beginning, just after the D bomb, I was thinking like "her husband," and when she said "I want to keep my 401K and you keep yours," I assumed it was a matter of a few thousand dollars. I agreed.

My W has been keeping her 401K/retirement statements in her office for about 3 years, (feature this, about the same time as the OM/IDLYA bomb,) along with her cell phone records.

Then....

I asked her for full custody, it got ugly.

We tried to talk about transferring to either of our home states, it got ugly.

I let her cool off, and asked her how she wanted to proceed with the custody / logistics discussions since we can't talk about them on our own.

She was still pissed, and said "I want to let the lawyers handle it."

At the first settlement conference, we disclosed all assets & debts. I was SHOCKED. I said "no way, we split down the middle." It got ugly later.

If she had just lied to me and agreed to transfer (without meaning to,) I would have agreed to her version of the settlement without full disclosure.

I'm glad she was acting selfish. It saved me a TON.

Just read this:

Quote:

When we used to plan missions, we would have tons of contingency plans. We never got bent or just went straight to end-game.

I think I'm gonna run try to dig up a couple of my old posts that you might be able to relate to.

Standby...

From 3/07 1:06am

For the last week I have had one word keep popping up in my head.

Fortified.

I couldn't figure out why that word kept bugging me.

I looked it up for an official definition as opposed to my just thinking along the lines of vitamins.

Interesting.

It means "strengthened against attack".[/quote]

My post later that evening after I took my daughter to the battlefield at Yorktown:

Quote:

My daughter and I decided this afternoon that we were going to walk on the beach at Yorktown. Being raised here, we take that place for granted and although my kids have gone there on field trips, I can't say I have walked the battlefields with them other than to sit on the cannons when they were little.
We went onto the battlefield today and walked around. We found an old cemetary and walked around reading the tombstones that dated back to the 1800s.

At one point, I was in what I called a trench. I was down below and she was up a few feet higher than me. I looked over at the sign they had posted and a word caught my eye. The sign said "field fortification" and then went on to describe how the troops basically dug in and built mounds of dirt around themselves to be protected from enemy troops. That's when I looked around. I was standing basically in a huge oval area and all around me was a wall of dirt with grass on it.
No one on top, unless they were right there looking down, could have seen me. If I were in a war, the walls all around me would have protected me against attack.

Now here's my "holy crap" moment....

When I looked around this evening and saw the wall built around me, I was pretty much just dumbstruck.

No one in this world or even straight out of hell could convince me now that I haven't been being readied to make THIS very stand.

That word being in my mind and then me standing there like I did tonight was no coincidence.

So TFH - what I am saying to you is this, generally I believe that if a person ends up here, they have been strenghtened to stand. They just don't feel it most of the time because this is such a hard road. Even I, at my weakest, had to literally be shown what that meant - to be "fortified". You may or may not believe the same about yourself. But I felt led to show you that old post. There is also another one. Might take a couple minutes for me to track that one down...

Thanks AmyC.

Check out the emperors new clothes...

Quote:

I learned a new definition for the word filibustertoday. In Church. And it gave me something to think about and it can be applied to our situations very effectively. The definition is below....Keep reading if you want to know how it applies to us...

Filibuster is the historical name, used predominantly in the 19th century, for private individuals who settled in foreign states with the intent of eventually overthrowing the existing government

Any of us, while we were lost or even if we were just uneducated in the ways of matrimony, caught up in our own selfishness, too busy to notice the sad condition of our homes...whatever the source of our marital problems, we can be considered to have been residing at that time in a "foreign territory". The enemy's territory. Only his work was being done at that time: destroying the family from within. For example, it applies to me in that I was lost and deeply mired in the sin of adultery and all the other sin that entails....so I was residing in a foreign territory - wholly welcomed by it's 'government' - living in the enemy's domain. Accomplishing his work and destroying my family.

But soon there came another Another who represented a better Government. He set me free - opened my eyes - forgave me - and I joined HIS battle to take back all the enemy had taken from me while I was deceived.

And now it's war. What will you do? What will I do?
Will we fight for what we know is His WILL...that our marriages be brought back from the brink of divorce TO HIS GLORY?

It only takes one person to stand up and change things. Change the ENTIRE course of events. All throughout history there have been men and women who have done so for causes less than ours and causes EXACTLY like ours.
Our cause is His cause. So all of heaven is behind us and there's nothing in hell or from hell that will change that. Unless we lay down. We are called to stand. We have to stand there against everything that comes against us but we are not standing without protection. We have the Armor of God and He tells us to put it on...

Gird your loins with Truth
The Breastplate of Righteousness
Feet shod with preparation on the Gospel of Peace
The Shield of Faith
The Helmet of Salvation
The Sword of the Spirit

And so we fight.

Do we get tired? Yes.
Do we get disillusioned? Yes.
Do we give up? The truth is some will. I came close.

The more believers that gather, the stronger we are. And we have the only weapon we need. The Word. It doesn't matter what the circumstances say to us, or even what our spouses say....it only matters what God says but we have to claim it and KEEP CLAIMING IT until we see the manifestation of our faith. That is the restoration of our marriages. The facts may be that we and our spouses messed up really bad. The facts may be that we don't see any signs of reconciliation. The TRUTH is God said He will "restore the years the locust has eaten"...He did not say He MIGHT restore. He said He WILL. We are always asking Him for something. Maybe now He wants something from US. He wants to see faith. Yes, He wants us to believe in what we do not see. THAT'S what faith IS.

In the Gospel of Luke are several stories where Jesus said to someone "your faith has saved you", "your faith has made you whole". Another story tells of a man with palsy who's friends, trying to get him to Jesus, lowered him down from the roof into the house where Jesus was...they so believed He could heal their friend...the Bible says "when He saw their faith He said to the man 'your sins are forgiven'". It's about faith. And if faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain, we have what it takes, through Him, to save our marriages. He said in Luke 10:19 "Behold I give you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

We are in a battle. It doesn't matter if you THINK you are or not. Or if you WANT to be or not.
You ARE in it.
Everyone is.
It is only a question of which side.

You can take that post for what it is worth to you, TFH.
You can try to remove the spiritual aspects if you need to and still gain from it, only not as much in my opinion.

Hope you get something out of these!

AmyC

Originally Posted By: theforlornhope

Thanks AmyC.

Check out the emperors new clothes...

HA!
Why I love it, of course!!

Originally Posted By: tfh

My W's (I'm not caling her STBXW anymore, see post above!) stated reason for leaving is to find that "romantic spark with someone else."

I agree with you about simply calling our Ws, W. Also, my W said the same thing about wanting that "in love" feeling.

TFH,
Good for you. I'm sorry for what you had to find out and hope it wasn't too upsetting, but if it benefitted you, then by all means, right? Sometimes we have to think like business-people and not spouses who love.

AmyC, sorry, I lost my satellite internet over the weekend during the northern midwest ice storm.

I can't thank you enough for your posts. Your timeliness is impeccable, these two posts couldn't have made a bigger impact at any time other than right now. I can't remove the spiritual aspects, it's why I am here. There is a reason, and a time, for everything.

I can hardly read your posts without tears. Of pain, of fear, and of joy. You remind me of what I am called to do. (the softest 2x4 ever.) I pray that I am strong enough to do what is required.

Again, I don't know how to thank you. Redoubting ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redoubt ) a man's, (or woman's,) faith in his time of need is truly a work of the Word.

((((AmyC))))

MMF, thanks for watching me. I need to keep my mind right on calling her the W. She still is. She may not be soon, but even then, I hope to keep it right in my heart.

Best,

TFH

Jack,

Thank you for being here. Thank you for staying here even when you don't need to.

It's like having naval guns or arty still on the air when everything else goes to H#*.

Thanks for showing us it can be done, however difficult.

Thanks for being hard to kill.

W8ing, I hope that things are a going better for you lately. I hope that you get some offers to go out with people that don't include your H's D atty in the party. Or any other Atty's for that matter.

Folks are 'silly' everywhere.

Quote:

I understand wanting to DB...but you have to protect yourself. Let her be angry. Just don't reflect her emotion.

This is tough. I've been doing a pretty good job of DBing, (I think,) but this part will knock out my gains. I guess that is out of my control though, and I shouldn't worry about it. This is her choice, not mine.

Surprisingly, (to myself esp,) I've been doing well with anger for a while now. I expect that's what her emotion will be, anger, and I am preparing myself mentally to let it go.

Have you had any further dealings with your settlement issues? If so, how have you handled dealing with him?

HF7, thanks for keeping up with me. My internet access has been down lately due to ice storms.

Sadly, finding out her intentions was as big a blow as IDLYA. I suppose it just drove the point home. For real.

The good news is that it enabled me to get a little angry, and detach enough to make good "businesslike" decisions on the settlement issues for my sons, and myself.

Thank God. If that hadn't happened, then I might have allowed some more seriously messed up things to occur during our D.

It's sad for me not to be able to act like the spouse who loves, because I am, but anytime she wants that back, I'm here.

$\:\)$

Quote:

It's sad for me not to be able to act like the spouse who loves

You most certainly are the spouse that loves. You aren't giving up. Putting up with this crap is one of the most loving things I can think of, it is as close to unconditional love as we frail humans can get.

Edit - Thanks. Uneeded, pass it along, thats the way to pay here.

Originally Posted By: theforlornhope

AmyC, sorry, I lost my satellite internet over the weekend during the northern midwest ice storm.

I can't thank you enough for your posts. Your timeliness is impeccable, these two posts couldn't have made a bigger impact at any time other than right now. I can't remove the spiritual aspects, it's why I am here. There is a reason, and a time, for everything.

I can hardly read your posts without tears. Of pain, of fear, and of joy. You remind me of what I am called to do. (the softest 2x4 ever.) I pray that I am strong enough to do what is required.

Again, I don't know how to thank you. Redoubting ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redoubt ) a man's, (or woman's,) faith in his time of need is truly a work of the Word.

((((AmyC))))

Thanks for letting me know those old posts made a difference, TFH.

But be warned...

Now that you're on my radar, you are subject to receive my NOT SO "soft" 2x4s, as well! $;\)$

Amy

Oh crap!

That just means Amy likes you really. She is the type of friend who will tell you your acting like an a$$ hole.
Instead of going,
"What's wrong...are you ok sweetie?"

Jack and Amy, good advice, 2x4, tough love, if I had had enough foresight to seek input from you guys before 2.5 years ago, I might not be in this mess.

Bring it on!

Hindsight says PAY ATTENTION.

I'm hard, but not stupid...

Quote:

She is the type of friend who will tell you your acting like an a$$ hole.

You can't pipe that into the space between my ears and my mouth before I speak can you?.....

Honestly when you talk to her, learn to mentally count ot 10 or something that slows you down before answering or responding right way.

"Is what I am about to say going to hurt or help my marriage"
That is what I tried to think before I talked with my wife.

Still do actually.

please notice the tried, it is hard at times. Sometimes it was better to stop a conversation, and say look I am pretty sure this is not going the way either one of us wants it too. Can we do this when we are are calmer.

Originally Posted By: AmyC

[quote=theforlornhope]...Thanks for letting me know those old posts made a difference, TFH.

But be warned...

Now that you're on my radar, you are subject to receive my NOT SO "soft" 2x4s, as well! $;\)$

Amy

I would like to put in for an order of "tough love" Amy $;\)$

Be careful of what you wish for MMF.
: )

Amy is great though.

I have tried everything else. A nice 2x4 upside the head may be welcome $\:D$

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

Be careful of what you wish for MMF.
: )

Amy is great though.

Awww Jack, you're such a suck up.
You must still be swooning 'cause I liked your pirate outfit!

$;\)$

Pirate outfit? Sounds like a story to that...

Journaling here, it's been a while.

This weekend was pretty busy, and we spent a lot of time together with the kids. 2 of 3 nights we watched tv together after the boys went down. Very pleasant and enjoyable. We did hit a glitch when she was looking for Christmas decorations. She became upset because she couldn't find some of them, (I had moved them from the basement into a closet upstairs.) I went to the basement to look, and she followed me down. She asked if I was angry, (I don't think I was acting angry,) I said "no, but you are acting angry with me and I don't know why." Things definately took a turn for the better after I found them.

Saturday was a little uncomfortable. She took the boys to the mall to have their pictures taken. She wasn't wearing her ring.

Why do I even notice.

After she got back, I asked how it went, and she said fine, they were little monsters, but it went fine and she got their pictures done. I asked if she got some with her too, and she visibly became VERY uncomfortable, saying yes, she had gotten some "family" pics too. I was (I think,) pretty nonchalont about asking, so her reaction spoke volumes.

Ugh. Now I understand about the ring.

She does have trouble with the boys when she is alone. I backstop her as much as possible, warning them to be good for her, and correcting them with / for her if she asks me to. Lately S4 has been trying on some attitude for size with her.

I asked her if she wanted to go to church with us, and she said no, the boys jumped in and started asking her to come with us. I left it alone after that. I'll try not to offer in front of them again. I ask every couple of weeks, but I try not to make a big deal about it.

After church on Sunday, I told her that S6 and I would need to make cookies for next week, and the following week is the soup-potluck, so I would probably make navy bean soup to take in.

She seemed a little sad as we talked about it. One of her primary reasons for wanting us to belong to a church before was for the community. We are both pretty alone here. I think she is feeling a little left out in this area, but is still refusing to participate. I think she's also sad because she has trouble making friends, and she doesn't think I do.

Both the W and I are coming down with something, I have it pretty bad so I stayed home from work today.

This morning she looked in the microwave and said wow, this is dirty, I bet you wish your wife could clean it. (I do most of the kitchen cleaning, so that was kind of a joke.) I said I'm just glad my wife did the grocery shopping.

I was asleep when they got home, butI woke up in time to hug the boys at bedtime, and we watched some tv together. Pretty pleasant. She did say she was sorry I wasn't feeling well.

Pretty good weekend altogether, except the part about the ring.

Don't sweat the small stuff.
And in the grand scheme of things, rings are small.

Hey, just checking in on you, as I appreciate you checking in on me all the time $\:\)$ It's so weird how we make certain "friends" around here, you know?

I so wish and pray for you that your W comes around. I think it's so sad when it seems they are just keeping on w/ their plans out of pride and don't think they can *come back* b/c they've gone too far already. Sounds maybe like that's where your W is?

Maybe while you continue to do what you need to do for yourself & the boys, she will see what she's truly losing and will finally break through and allow herself to *feel* again.

I truly know how hard it is to maintain when they are still in the house! You are doing an awesome job -- for yourself and for your boys.

AmyC, I guess the ring is just a thing, like a D is just a piece of paper. Kind of caught me off guard added to the "family picture thing." Oh well, it is what it is, a tree not the forest. Now to work on the big picture, where's my chainsaw?

RHW, that pride thing is a tough nut, my W is Stubborn with a capital S. Probably from living with me.

I think the only way for me to impact that is to be humble yet confidant, and keep on making our home a pleasant environment. (It IS hard to be humble when you're me. )

This morning was interesting, she's getting back to expressing different attitudes every morning and evening. I can usually tell from the tone of her voice if / when she says good morning how it's going to go. Today was the "I'm angry" tone.

Her mood swings amaze me. Friendly and personable last night, angry and irritable this morning. What the heck happened between there that changed? I understand coming home from a hard day at the office grumpy, but sheesh, what happens at night to make you irritable?

Maybe she called OM and had an argument? $\:D$ Hahaha I should be so lucky. She has left her phone downstairs at night a few more times, and it doesn't seem to tempt me nearly as much lately. Aaahhh, relief.

She didn't take it out on me other than being sort of cross, but she was very impatient with the boys, raising her voice to them a lot over nothing. Esp S6. She must not be able to see how much it affects them when she is like that.

Fortunately I have S6 for about another half hour after she leaves with S4, so I can get his spirits back up before I take him to the bus stop.

I'm starting to feel good about where I am right now, I think I'm keeping a pretty even keel, and "acting as-if". I'm working on some contingency plans for interacting with her after the next settlement conference. I suspect the road might get bumpy.

I've been shopping for her Chritmas presents from the boys, I think I'll get her something small too, act as-if. I was considering getting her a set of luggage, $\:D$ Bad TFH, Bad. I guess a lump of coal is right out too.

One of the things I noticed with my H is that his mood would get bad after we danced together. It was like doing something fun and having a good time with me put him off. Needless to say we don't dance anymore. Sometimes it makes me wonder if having a "nice" time with us stirs stuff up.

Sorry you're not feeling well physically, but otherwise you sound good. Keep it up.

Like you I've been shopping for H from D's and I plan on getting him something...probably a sweater.

I had to laugh at your humble remark. Ever heard the humble song by Mac Davis? If you haven't you should look it up. $\:\)$

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I was considering getting her a set of luggage, Bad TFH, Bad.

Apparently you never heard the story about the man's body that washed up offshore here in Virginia a year or two ago. He had been chopped up and put in luggage.
A MLCer could have done it.
You never know...that's all I'm sayin'.

GOOD MORNIN'!!!

Grace, I was thinking of you yesterday, I was thinking about telling my boys about the D. UGH. If you guy's had that talk this weekend, I hope it went well.

I think you're right about it stirring stuff up. That makes it hard to DB. That probably explains some of her mood swings.

Thanks, except for this flu, I've been doing pretty well lately. Esp with PMA, I love that cause it brings my sense of humor back.

I get all kinds of crap from non-DB friends about planning on buying her something from me too, but I'll keep it small and non - pushing. No lingerie, no books on MLC, no gift cards for Match.com, Definately no luggage. Maybe something like oil-change gift certificates, or a Limited Edition Autographed Art Bagodi Bowling Plate, or a can of nuts where the snake pops out. OOH, maybe lingerie with the card addressed to "Michelle" or something. $\:D$

Ok, seriously, a sweater is about perfect here too.

I was thinking of that song when I wrote that. I looked up the lyrics just now,

wow.

AmyC, you made me snort my afternoon coffee! Ok, I crossed luggage and coal lumps off the list. We're too close to a big river.

I have a little too-much smart-a$$edness in me for my own good at times.

LOL,

I for a second actually thought you were serious about those gifts...

I was already highlighting and ready to say, bad idea.

Whew.

TFH, I was thinking of a digital picture frame for my W. She has really gotten into taking pictures with the digital camera I bought her last year. She could take the frame to her new job or have it at home. What do you think?

Man, that cracked me up all over again. Picturing myself actually doing that... I'll have to put more smileys on my tongue-in-cheek stuff.

I can come up with loads of smart-aleck stupid things like that, (like I said, my sense of humor is coming back,) but not one un-pushy yet thoughtful idea. I think I like Grace's idea of a sweater. Pretty neutral.

MMF, that sounds like a good idea. Those things have been dropping in price, and they're pretty nice. It'd be especially thoughtful since she has developed an interest in photography.

I think that's a great gift idea.

Thanks buddy! I like the sweater idea but for my W I am staying away from buying her clothes.

I know what you mean. I used to buy my wife clothes, but I stopped. She returned every single clothing item I ever bought her. Not most, ALL. I stopped after about 7-8 years. (NO, they weren't naughty or anything, well, most weren't.) I would raid her closet and check sizes, ask (my and her,)female friends to help me pick nice but neutral things, etc. No matter.

Anyway, she asked me once not long after the OM / IDLYA bomb why I don't buy her clothes. I said that she had returned every clothing item I had ever bought her. She denied this, and I challenged her to name one thing she has now or ever kept that I bought her. Stupid thing to say on my part, anyway, she couldn't, probably just contributed to making her feel bad / guilty.

I liked Grace's sweater idea because I can pick a neutral one with her college logo on it. If she doesn't like that one, she still just doesn't like anything from me. That's ok too, but that's her thing, not me.

Besides, a college logo sweater beats the heck out of my smart aleck ideas above.

They are tempting though.

She may end up cherishing the sweater since it seems like a bigger deal to her now. Unfortunately, the opposite may happen to make a point. My POV is to simply buy her something with the best intention and what she decides to do with it is up to her.

I found a sweatshirt of mine that she used to wear as a nightshirt in the winter. I hung it up in my closet for when she returns. She always looked so cute in it. (And out of it $;\)$ )

She has taken an unusually high interest in football since her new job / OM. Mostly NFL, but some college. I never followed football that much, preferring baseball and hocky, which we followed together a little bit.

Now "I don't like sports."

Whatever, that's one of those "always wrong" topics, so I leave it alone mostly.

I know she is fervent about her college team. If she decides to make a point with it, I can handle that. It's her team anyway.

Is it wrong for me to secretly root agaist her teams?

She wears special shirts for "this guy" at the gym when she loses a bet with him on football.

Ah well, not in my control.

This'll become something better, or not.

I'm gonna be the old bad-a44 SOB I was before this anyway.

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She always looked so cute in it. (And out of it )

And we're not romantic enough....

Okay guys you are missing the point. It is important to remember that our half of the population has the shopping gene. My H would give me weird gifts all the time. I didn't mind. Just return and shop. After all it is the shopping part that is fun. (A concept that sends most guys running, fast.) So, whatever it is you get make sure its returnable. Those after Xmas sales are great!

Of course, once in a while my H actually thought about what I really liked. That was great. Usually, I left pictures around the house with circles and arrows to help out.

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and hocky

I love you man.

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Ah well, not in my control.

actually that is why I love you.

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Is it wrong for me to secretly root agaist her teams?

Nope...

Last year at a Christmas party...now mind you this is last year and it was a bit rocky, still a big blow up fight at Halloween, and this Christmas party was like a first date in a long time sort of thing.

Well they had Sumo Suit Wrestling...
She REALLY wanted to Sumo fight me.
She however waited until I had wrestled like everyone in the company first...those suits are heavy, and truth be told I drank ALOT prior to going to the party to kind of lubricate the night with her.

Soooo...
All suited up she asks, "Are you ready?"

And I flattened her.

That felt great!

Sooooo...secretly rooting agaisnt your wife's team isn't sooo bad.

short1, I'll gladly admit to this,

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Okay guys you are missing the point.

Seems like I really was. A lot.

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Usually, I left pictures around the house with circles and arrows to help out.

Where were you when I was Christmas shopping? Circles and arrows are great!

Men like things like that! At least I would.

So, whatever it is you get make sure its returnable.

Check. It will be.

I always do.

I can't believe I mispelled Hockey!

Quote:

Well they had Sumo Suit Wrestling...
She REALLY wanted to Sumo fight me.
She however waited until I had wrestled like everyone in the company first...those suits are heavy, and truth be told I drank ALOT prior to going to the party to kind of lubricate the night with her.

Awesome, that's just awesome.

The problem for me is that she loves the Packers, and is in luuuuuve with Brett Favre. I actually like the Packers too.

Oh well, there are other teams out there who need a fan.

Maybe even some who can whip the Packers. $\:D$

I have had a smile on my face reading the last couple of pages of this thread.

Amy - I was giggling at your post. But I also wondered what made you think it was MLC? It very well could have been a LBS pushed to the breaking point........Not that I would know or anything..... $;\)$

I can't even imagine buying my H a Christmas gift or even receiving one from him....... But he will also not be here on Christmas morning. If he were here, it may be different....

I do think that the digital picture frame is a good idea. Just FYI, Target had some on sale this week....

TFH - you sound like you are doing well. My H seems to be going through the same type of mood swings....I never know what he will be like when I walk into work on a day to day basis.... I can't imagine living with that - I give you a lot of credit....

Hang in there! You are sounding strong!

Thanks w8ing for the Target suggestion!

W8ing, I love hearing from you. $\:\)$ I still think that you're in a tougher sit than me because of the work thing. I think about how hard it must be, esp. with the family business. Stay strong woman!

About the Christmas gift, I'm not looking for a reaction, I'm just trying to act as-if for me. Like RCR posted on my first thread.

It seems to be working for me, if not for her. She likely won't be coming if we go to St Louis to be with my family, and I doubt that she will stay if we have Christmas here. I'm still going to act as-if. I'll quietly invite her down there, or to stay here. Her decisions are her own.

Maybe it will add to the "safe environment for her later..."

Quote:

My H seems to be going through the same type of mood swings

We could use a magic 8-ball for this... I think it would be about as predictable.

Actually, TFH, I do okay at work. For some crazy reason, I can go in and be happy (please notice I did not say "act", I said "be"). What is strange is that I don't know who knows and who doesn't. Stranger yet, I don't care.... And to give credit to the in-laws.....all act like nothing is going on. You would never know......very wierd.......

Yesterday, H asked me to write something for him (normal part of my job). I wrote it up but didn't hear back from him. Today, he came in and asked me to write something else (again, a normal thing for me). I asked him about yesterday's thing and he said it was fine and he didn't have any changes. I wrote today's thing for him and gave it to him. He then started asking my advice on how to deal with a situation we now have. We talked about it and he is taking my advice.

All just normal. The old normal....not this new, crazy *ssed MLC normal.

But I don't read into it. Tonight the MLC fairy could hit him and he could be glaring at me tomorrow.

Someone asked me today if H will be with us on Christmas morning to see the girls open gifts. You know, I never even thought of it. You seem to be acting as if the marriage is still on, so to speak. I seem to be acting as if we are divorced......Why do I think that this isn't what I should be doing? Or is it just that your W is still there and my H isn't? I don't know. I know that, with the exception of the occasional spinning that I do when something new happens along the D lines, I am mostly at peace.

And it is a nice place to be after the last few months....

W8ing, you're sounding good.

Quote:

Amy - I was giggling at your post. But I also wondered what made you think it was MLC? It very well could have been a LBS pushed to the breaking point

Okay, Okay, no luggage. No coal, no mis-addressed lingerie, no bowling plates.

How about a pet rat? $\:D$

I know, just kidding.

I still think you're Tee Ewe Eff Eff. TUFF. To take our rollercoaster ride at work sounds so much more difficult... $\:\)$

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For some crazy reason, I can go in and be happy (please notice I did not say "act", I said "be").

Like I said TUFF!

At least I havetwo boys and a border collie at home who think I hung the moon. (and the B/C's frisbee.

)

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All just normal. The old normal....not this new, crazy *ssed MLC normal.

See, this is why I say you are so tuff. I can't imagine dealing with that guy around other people. (besides kids and border collies.) It would be too surreal, like a new episode of The Twilight Zone.

Quote:

You seem to be acting as if the marriage is still on, so to speak. I seem to be acting as if we are divorced......Why do I think that this isn't what I should be doing? Or is it just that your W is still there and my H isn't?

I don't think it's that she is still here, our interactions are pretty limited, about 2 hrs per day not incl kid time.

Really, until just recently I was doing that also, but I wasn't very pleased with my outlook. It was helping me cope, but it wasn't where I needed to be for me internally.

Jack, MMF, and AmyC posted some things that made me re-evaluate my stance. Some of that was spiritual in nature, some wasn't.

I often feel uncomfortable with pointing out the spiritual things that give me strength, I don't want to sound pushy and then turn someone away. I wish I had the correct words to describe it.

Anyway, I don't think you're off-line with DBing, we all need to detach, especially when it comes down to the line on the logistics of custody and finances. I don't think this means that we can't stand for our marriage, just that we aren't accepting the MLC disneyland that our spouses envisioned.

I went through an angry FU period after I saw what my W "intended" for me after our D. It helped me detach A LOT. It really helped me put into perspective the IDLYA aspect of what was going on.

I guess it made me realize that what my W really envisioned wasn't a D, but for me to just vanish. From her life, our sons lives, our financial sit, the planet.

Once I got that into my head, I began to think of what is best for my sons first, and then what is "equitable" for me / us. I don't really think about what she wants anymore, I can't think like her husband anymore in that respect, as much as I want to. (I think you might be at that place as well,)

I had a bit of trouble coming back to where I want to be after that.

Those posts I mentioned really helped me. Jack's posts have been a reality check for me in my threads all along, and AmyC's post that really woke me up about my attitude is on page 4 of this thread, 8 posts after your's $\:\)$

Quote:

And it is a nice place to be after the last few months....

I know, it really is. I'm glad you're there. I want so badly to hear from my friends here that things are going their way for once. Sometimes that's far enough. That's where I was when I got AmyC's post.

I hope that you can take some time to gather your strength and take a look at the question of standing. It took a lot for me to refocus on that. I know how awfully hard that idea is.

It isn't for everyone, (I'm still not 100% sure about me,) and your H has been a terrible Sh17. No-one would think poorly of you if you said to heck with him.

I definately had a hand in this at the beginning, so in my sit, I owe it to my sons, to her, and to me.

It really makes my day hearing from you.

So what ARE your plans for Christmas? Your house? Who's coming? (besides Santa,) More importantly, Turkey or Ham? MMMMmmmmm Christmas dinner...

Just a thought. Since she is unlikely to buy me a gift, I am also shopping for a gift for myself. Take a minute to spoil yourself this year and buy something for you from "Santa," that you wouldn't normally buy. Your Ds will love it, and you deserve it!

Maybe an expensive piece of jewelry that everyone at work will notice.

(I think you can safely ignore gift suggestions from me after my previous posts, fun, funny, not the smartest.)

Quote:

Tonight the MLC fairy could hit him and he could be glaring at me tomorrow.

I shoot fair trap / skeet, maybe we could arrange something for that fairy at her next visit here.... PULL... $\:D$

W8ing,

Quote:

Yesterday, H asked me to write something for him (normal part of my job). I wrote it up but didn't hear back from him. Today, he came in and asked me to write something else (again, a normal thing for me). I asked him about yesterday's thing and he said it was fine and he didn't have any changes. I wrote today's thing for him and gave it to him. He then started asking my advice on how to deal with a situation we now have. We talked about it and he is taking my advice.

The more I read that, the more surreal it seems. How can the guy just go on like you're a colleague and then change faces later.

Like Jeckyll and Hyde.

How weird.

Oops, this came out wrong.

Quote:

It isn't for everyone, (I'm still not 100% sure about me,)

I am sure it's what I want to do. My worry is simply time.

Believe it or not, I am patient, I'm just learning to apply it to a new part of my life.

I just posted this on open forums, Just for fun. Thought some of you might like these jokes.

How many MLCers does it take to change a light bulb?
.
.
.
.None;

The light bulb was never there. If it was, it never worked.

That light isn't good for me anymore. Take it out.

I hate that light. There are better lights everywhere but here. I don't like light anyway.

I'm leaving, there's no light here, there never has been. I'm going to find a better light, so I can really, truly see.

The kids will be fine, they'll learn to see in the dark. You stay here in the dark with the broken bulb, I'm taking the house and fixtures.

Look, I found a NEW light, this is the BEST LIGHT EVER, there has never been a TRUE light before now.

The kid's eyes will adjust, they'll be fine. They'll like this new light even more than the old one.

A couple more,

How many snipers does it take to screw in a light bulb?
.
.
...None, they wear ghillie suits.

How many dogs does it take to screw in a light bulb?

Golden Retriever: The sun is shining, the day is young, we've got our whole lives ahead of us, and you're worrying about a stupid burned out light bulb?

Border Collie: Just one. And then I'll replace any wiring that's not up to code.

Dachshund: You know I can't reach that stupid lamp!

Rottweiler: Make me.

Boxer: Who cares? I can play with my squeaky toys in the dark.

Lab: Oh, me, me!!! Pleeeze let me change the light bulb! Can I? Can I? Huh? Huh? Huh? Can I? Pleeeze, please, please, please!

German Shepherd: I'll change it as soon as I've led these people from the dark, check to make sure I haven't missed any, and make just one more perimeter patrol to see that no thieves have tried to take advantage of the situation.

Jack Russell Terrier: I'll just pop it in while I'm bouncing off the walls and furniture.

Old English Sheep Dog: Light bulb? I'm sorry, but I don't see a light bulb.

Cocker Spaniel: Why change it? I can still pee on the carpet in the dark.

Chihuahua: Yo quiero Taco Bulb.

Pointer: I see it, there it is, there it is, right there.

Greyhound: It isn't moving. Who cares?

Australian Shepherd: First, I'll put all the light bulbs in a little circle.

Poodle: I'll just blow in the Border Collie's ear and he'll do it. By the time he finishes rewiring the house, my nails will be dry.

$\:D$ that MLC lightbulb one is a great one.

I stole the dog one, but the other two are mine. Like I said, PMA brings back my sense of humor.

I'll admit my Christmas gift jokes were pretty dark, but.... Dark humor for dark times. I'm not assuming things anymore, it will be what it will be.

I joke about it to deal with it.

I'll probably have more after our settlement conference. My W's atty is one of those hateful people that you immediately dislike. No, seriously, I know A LOT of atty's, and this one came in with a CHIP on her shoulder. I don't hold it against her for being my W's atty, but she is one of those people that it is just hard to like.

Lawyer jokes....MMMmmmmm lots of those.

Gotta run to get D13, but love the jokes....

Great idea about buying myself a present. And I think I know exactly what I want......

I will go back and read some of the posts from the people you mentioned - a little later when my driving job is over. Gotta love these kid activities....

I don't know if I am detaching or if I am distancing. Either way, it is easier to wake up each morning...

No decisions now about standing. If I am uncertain, it means that I am not ready to decide. And I am uncertain.

I am also responsible for the marriage going bad. I will take a lot of blame for that. Hindsight....heck, I would change so much. I was lazy and did nothing to change our problems.

But I don't agree or take any responsibility for how he is choosing to "fix" things.

Okay, now I am really late! I will check in later!

W8ing, thanks. $\:\)$

Good for you. So what's the present?? Ok, you don't have to tell us if you would have to put the blushing smiley by it.

I haven't picked mine out yet. (I'm fairly certain I won't get one from her, esp if the settlement conference is before then. maybe I'll lock up all the sharp objects in the house too. $\:D$ )

Quote:

If I am uncertain, it means that I am not ready to decide. And I am uncertain.

I agree completely. That's not a decision to rush, it would just put you in more turmoil later. Either way there is no need to rush. You'll know when the time is right to decide.

I was uncertain and very angry after the first settlement conference. I couldn't make up my mind. I did a lot of thinking, reading, and praying, (that helps me.) AmyC's post put some things together for me at the right time for me to hear it.

So what's the gift already?

Is it frilly and lacey and glows in the dark? Wait, that's mine.

I agree that uncertainty makes for not deciding. Glad all seems to be going well over here.

Loved the jokes! I've got a lab/rott mix, so you can imagine her response....

Ok...I need to rethink my gift. It wasn't anywhere near the frilly and lacey thinking... I wasn't thinking personal, but more practical, I guess....

Good grief, I need to get a life.

Grace - glow in the dark? I laughed at that one. Maybe I need to start shopping in other places - I have never seen frilly, lacey and glowing....

TFH - what is yours?

I read through all the posts. I love the name "The Forlorn Hope.".

It's been really helpful to go through all this.
And I laughed because I have a Lab/collie mix--- so true abut their natures.

My best wishes to you in this holiday season.

Grace, that sounds veerrrryyy interesting.

Lab/rott mix, sounds like a good dog.

Check my next posts, I've run into a spot of trouble.

W8ing, practical is ok. Personal is more fun though. I say we take one small piece of this year and spoil ourselves just a little bit.

I don't guess I'll be thinking frilly and lacy for mine though. $\:D$

I am leaning strongly towards a new rifle-scope. I know, that sounds boring, but for me it would be like a 6 year old with a train set.

If only Santa would bring a new rifle to go with it.....

What trouble?

Bad news friends, it appears I'll have to change my identity on this board, my wife snooped.

I think I will have to start over with a new login name.

Dammit.

This is a gateway email address for my friends to contact so that you can find my new threads under my new login name.

woodworker1060@gmail.com

If I lose any of you, I'm very sorry.

Thank all of you for the support. You've kept me in the game.

Last night,

I thought I had logged off my laptop, but I didn't.

As we were finishing dinner, my aunt, who is one of my strongest spiritual advisors, called, and I excused myself from the table at about 1902.

I went into the spare bedroom and closed the door, because I wanted to talk to my aunt about my indecision previously, and my decision to stand.

We talked until about 1946. I washed up and returned to the living room. I took the boys upstairs, and put them to bed. I told her they wanted a kiss.

I returned downstairs and turned on the TV. I wanted to rectify not watching TV with her the night before because I had been angry with her.

I opened my laptop, (on an end table in the living room,) and the password screen didn't come up. The browser screen came up, not the password screen. I almost missed this. I realized that the password screen should have come up.

I opened the 'history' panel on the web browser, and it showed the several Word Documents that were opened. (I didn't know it recorded word docs too.)

These included my journal, address book, a saved post from AmyC, and some others.

I was looking at the times these documents were opened, when W came into the room. I had the TV on showing Christmas Vacation. She said, that is one of my favorite Christmas movies. I agreed, and said "It is a really funny movie." (We have always enjoyed watching this movie together.)

She went upstairs. I checked the documents' access times and my cell phone log again and again. I finally decided that these documents were opened while I was on the telephone and in the other room.

I went upstairs and knocked on her bedroom door. She was in the master bath, so I went downstairs and waited. After a few minutes I went back up and knocked, she was still occupied. I waited in the doorway. I didn't want to be "in" the room when she came out. A few minutes later she came out.

I asked her "did you use my computer?" She said "Maggie's ball hit it." (Maggie is our dog.) I said nothing and waited. She said "yes I did look at some files on your computer." "I'm sorry that was wrong."

I said "Why did you do that."

She said "because every time you agree to something you go back on it, and I was afraid."

I believe she was talking about me agreeing not to split our retirement nest egg, and me agreeing to move into town when I thought I had no other option financially. These issues are a big beef with her since I verbally agreed to them before I knew that there was enough money for me to keep the house, and also keep a sizeable part of our nest egg.

I pointed to her phone on the dresser by the bed and asked, "Do I look in there?" (Stupid Stupid ,thing to say.)

She said "Yes, you do, you admitted it." This refers to almost 3 years ago when I did snoop in her phone which convinced me of the Affair. I divulged this during MC when I was telling her why I thought she was having an affair.

I said "That was back when you first told me you loved someone else." She said "I never said that." I said, "Yes you did,"... I got a hold of myself, and said, "that's fine,... Goodnight." I was angry, but I conducted myself very calmly.

I wanted to argue several points here, but I stopped after a few seconds, I could tell I was getting mad and not thinking about what I was saying. After I said goodnight, I left closing the door.

I came downstairs to cool down, and turned the computer back on.

Before I could begin this journal, she came down as well.

She sat down in the living room, and I sat down as well.

She said "I'm sorry I looked at your computer that was uncool."

I said "I'm sorry too."

She said "I only looked at the first page of a couple of files, and then I closed it down."

I said "you opened several files."

She said "no, I only looked at your journal and it hurt my feelings."

(My journal isn�t rage and hate, it's as close to a narrative of events as I can remember, but I'm sure that the viewpoint difference still sucks.)

I was quiet for a few minutes; I was trying to decide what a constructive thing to say or do was. I was pretty hurt and angry. (I'm pretty sure I won't ever snoop now.)

She said "You have been mad at me for several days now, what are you mad about?"

I was angry with her Wednesday night over her treatment of the boys, but I had tried to swallow that and ignore it. I'm sure she noticed it though.

I was trying to compose a response when she said "I only saw a couple of files, and that is all."

I said "you didn't look at the file named AmyC?," (this was one of the later opened files, a saved post.)

She said "I didn't look at the Amy file, I assumed it was a letter to Amy. (My stepsister is named Amy,) I only opened those to cover my tracks. I didn't look at anything else."

I started to lose composure a little, and I said "I talk to people on there who help me get through this, who help me deal with what is going on. Now I can't talk to those people anymore. Now my support network is gone."

She said "I am sorry, I didn't look at that, I swear, I only looked at a couple of files."

I realized that my anger was getting the best of me, (Yay, I caught it way quicker than I used to.) so I said, "that's OK, I can fix that and email my friends. It's no big deal."

(Everything else aside, I'm damn proud I caught myself. I've been a lot better about anger lately, but this really pissed me off. I'm proud I stopped it here.)

She asked "why have you been mad at me, what did I do? You have seemed angry since Monday." I don't remember being or acting angry on Monday or Tuesday, so I was trying to think about my response. I couldn't think of any incidents that she could be referring to besides a short one last night. (Wednesday.) I couldn't come up with anything I acted angry about.

She asked me again, "why are you angry with me, have I done something else?"

Having no idea what she was talking about, I fell back on a response that I had been planning to use with her over the D sit. (THANKS JACK!) I said;

"I understand that what you are doing is the best thing for you. I don't fully understand why, but I believe you that it is the best thing for you. I disagree that this is the best thing for the boys. Also, it is not what I want or the best thing for me. Sometimes I get angry about that. Please bear with me if I sometimes seem angry about that. I think I am doing a damn good job of not getting angry about it. I started having anger and resentment problems when you first told me you loved someone else. I was an ass for the first 5 or 6 months after that. I am not blaming you for that, I should have acted better, but I didn't. Compared to that, I think I have done a damn good job of not acting angry about this for the past couple of months. Please bear with me as we go through this."

She nodded and was quiet for a few minutes.

She said, "I'm sorry I broke your trust, I would have been furious if you had done that to me. I won't do it again."

I said "that's Ok. I'm sorry that I tried to make you feel bad about my support group. I was just angry about it. I can fix that easily. It's really Ok."

We then went through several repetitions of her saying "I'm sorry, I broke your trust, I'd be furious with you, (etc.), and me saying "it's really Ok."

At one point I said to her, "I keep a journal to remind me of events that happened. Some people keep a journal to vent frustrations and anger. I don't do that. When I want to vent frustrations, I write letters expressing my anger, and I come back and look for reasons for my anger, and I edit them until I get the anger out of them. Then I delete them. I'm sorry if you saw one of those. I usually delete them as I go."

She said she hadn't seen anything like that, (thank God.)

Finally, after one of the repetitions, she said "but I'm the one who has to live with it," and went upstairs.

It is what it is.

I have no idea what I should have done here.

You handled it much better than I would have. You were able to see when your anger was rearing it's head and back off fom it. That's really a major thing. You should be proud of yourself.

I find it interesting that with her behavior she's the one that felt compelled to snoop. I don't think I would have told her "it's ok". It isn't. One think I've (finally) learned is that if someone apologizes to me I can just say "I understand" or "thank you". Somehow, it's ok seems to minimize the damage they've done.

Her "but I'm the one who has to live with it" just p!sses me off. It's selfish and she isn't looking and what the cost was to you. It's BS. You really have no idea what she got into and whether or not she's lying. I told you you did better than I would. $\:\)$

You're right that is is what it is. If you log on under a new name....we'll find you.

HUGS

Sounds like you did okay to me.

You have my email man...
and no offense, I'm glad if you change your name.
Something a little less...predestined for glorious failure.

You did amazingly fine.
When you look back at how you handled yourself, weeks, months or years, you'll see how well you did.

Quote:

"but I'm the one who has to live with it,"

I'm not sure that I want to put this in your head...
when my wife said stuff like this, I would correct her, the manner of how is important, no yelling or crying, but a simple fact:

Quote:

"We both live with it.

Anything more and it become guilt, not fact.

Jack - you are so right and I will remember that quote. I remember H saying this to me....where were you when I needed you!?!?! But they do think that it is all about them.....

TFH- what happened to you is something that I worry about with my H. I am so sorry that this happened to you. But I do think that you handled yourself amazingly well. Good job. I just cried (quietly) when H confessed to breaking into my email. All I could think about was the very personal emails and thank you to my parents for caring for me and supporting me. I was crushed and devastated.

And, like you....I just don't understand. I didn't leave him, I didn't do anything that warranted him doing this.

It is the MLC monster...or at least that is what I tell myself to try and excuse it.

But it is hard to forget.

I'm proud of you, TFH. You did well with this.

W8ing,

$\:\)$

(((((((HUGS)))))))

It's another step on this journey.

You're the best.

It is hard, but so are we.

Watch for my new thread.

Read your email. I'm going crazy...I think!

tfh, dude, you are doing well.

LMAO, non-taken, in retrospect, I fully agree. I guess you remember that I was in sad shape when I got here. I pulled that name out of my past experience as the situation apppeared at that time. I suppose that the word "forlorn" usually has a somewhat different (whinier,) meaning now than it did when that phrase was coined. I'm glad to change it, like I did with AmyC's suggestion for my tag line. I think you'll like the new one better.

Quote:

When you look back at how you handled yourself, weeks, months or years, you'll see how well you did.

Thanks Jack. I was on thin ice there. I was angry, but for the most part I was able to keep ahead of it. That feels pretty dang good.

Quote:

when my wife said stuff like this, I would correct her, the manner of how is important, no yelling or crying, but a simple fact:

Quote:

"We both live with it.

Anything more and it becomes guilt, not fact.

I'm working this like a dog with a bone. It might take me a while, and I might have to come back to it.

My delivery would be the real problem. Like you point out, making sure that I don't contribute to guilt will be the key to this.

Why are jacking with your sig line again, man?

$;\)$

DOH! I was trying to change my name and sig line together, b/c my wife was snooping on my computer, but it got all screwed up.

When I went to change it back, it was gone. DOH!

Anywhoo, I'll be changing to a whole new name and sig line soon.

I did like the old one though.

I'll try to drop you a line later, your insight and timing for me were critical. $\:\)$

Thanks AmyC

(((((hugs))))))

TFH, how are you doing?

HF7, I'm doing ok, things seem surreally normal at home. I know that this is better for my long term, but it can be very hard to walk away from a convo about Christmas gifts when what I want to do is hug her. I'm always fighting to keep my expectations at zero, but when we interact this normally, it is pretty tough. I feel like I'm always waiting for Rod Serling's voice to start up with the Twilight Zone speech.

This is a tough time of year for all of us, and I am constantly reminded how much better I have it than so many others.

I made cookies with S6 on Saturday, and we had a BLAST, cooking and singing along with blues music. (I can't sing, but S6 doesn;t know that yet.) We brought them to church today, and shocked most of the ladies...You can COOK?

I even had a request for a recipe. $\:D$

Like I said, I'm always waiting to hear Rod Serlings voice....

I always hoped that an annoucer would step out and say, "Congratualtions! You managed to survive the new reality TV show and stand by your marriage, you just won 1 million dollars."
Then I would have beaten him to a pulp and the TV crew and the producers.

FH,

Tools button
Internet Options button
General Tab
Clear History button
Delete Cookies button

This should remove your browsing history.

You can also click on your favorites button
Click History
Right Mouse click on the day and delete all web activity for that day.

That should also clean up you tracks on the computer.

: )

If you are going to underestimate someone, you best start with yourself.

Jack.. $\:\)$ $\:\)$ $\:\)$

FH, Maybe some well placed blow back..If she's snooping give her the right things to find $\:\)$

Hope,
Its already been said here but hey whats one more...
You did good!
Keep you chin up and sing Bro...Who cares if stray cats show up at the door while your doing it.

Quote:

I always hoped that an annoucer would step out and say, "Congratualtions! You managed to survive the new reality TV show and stand by your marriage, you just won 1 million dollars."
Then I would have beaten him to a pulp and the TV crew and the producers.

LMAO, if only.... I win? great, keep the cash bro, I just want a shot at the writers!

"If you are going to underestimate someone, you best start with yourself."

Too true. What a lesson to learn.

Shortstuff, there's so much she could have read that would have been positive, (it's not pushing if they snoop, right?) but from what I can tell, she picked a couple of parts of my journal that I think she would have felt insulted by. Well, Murphy lives here too I guess.

Gman, I'm hangin in there, but when I sing, even the alley cats slink away. I've got volume though.

I was so taken by your signature line that I copied it out and put it on the refrigerator. It's terrific!

So too bad you had to give it up. What are you posting under now?

Apple,

If you live in the same house as your wife, you might want to tone down the obvious signs of...pain and standing. I agree it is a good quote, but perhaps not so prominent, if you live in the same house.

FHope talks alot with Gman.

The style is still the same.

Hi J3B

I think I can get away with it. I've been a military history buff for all the time H has known me, and this sounds something like the charge of the light brigade.

H and I don't live in the same house, but he does visit here regularly. We are reconciling while separated, things going well, steadily forward.

I agree with you totally about not showing pain -- absolutely not good tactics. If you are still in pain, I have a lot of empathy. When this first started for me I felt like I'd had an amputation without benefit of anaesthetic. But this is the second time around for me, it happened twice in my first marriage. This time I decided to fight, to treat the thing as if it was a military campaign. Discipline, tactics, courage, willingness to take few flesh wounds to gain some ground -- it had the effect of removing me from my feelings quite a bit and I began enjoying the campaign after awhile. Also, I'm 63 years old -- there aren't many adventures still left at this age, so might as well enjoy whatever ones come my way!

Best wishes, J3B, and best of luck.

Since I know that FHope won't be back here. I'm not really hi-jacking his thread.

Not many adventures left?

Now, that's just crazy talk!

Life is what you make it.

I am glad that you and your H are reconciling. Of note: I am sorry that I got your gender wrong at first.

I am a military history buff too!

I'm finding that reconciliation is an adventure, J3B. So is surviving the fall-out of an EMA. There were plenty of times I felt like one of those people clinging to flimsy bits of lumber after the Titanic went down in the North Atlantic in winter.

I understand Apple. Been There Done That too. : )