I am new here but my problem isn't. My wife and I have been married for 7 years and have had problems with our sex life in the last 6 years. We have had ups and down, periods of frequent sex and long periods of no sex. Some of it due to having two kids, the rest due to stress from financial issues.
It is to the point that she has lost interest in sex and although she says she wishes things were better, she is reluctant to make any effort to make changes. She won't read books, no research, and refuses to do anything because she just doesn't like it.
How do I encourage her to want to make an honest effort to change?
Hi and welcome!
I suggest you post on the Sex Starved Marriage forum. There are some excellent people on there that could help you,
Happy New Year!
K
Usually the first thing is to check for any physical causes.
Your wife says she wishes things were better, but her actions don't back that up. If she won't read, will she let you read to her?
Sometimes one is more interested once one starts having sex. As Michelle has said in the past - Just Do It!
Discuss your wife's fantasies to see if anything at all turns her on. Let her be as free as she wants to as far as what she can say. If her fantasy is being with another man, or even with a woman, let her share that and try to enjoy exploring the fantasy with her. Just talking about it may turn her on.
Redefine sex. Sex is what turns you on "in bed", which can obviously be done out of the bedroom at all. My point is, don't emphasize sex as being vaginal intercourse. It can be oral, or anal, or just touching. You can bring yourself to an orgasm and/or she could do the same. The process isn't really the issue. Sharing sexual moments is what is most important right now and there can be modest goals.
If you are convinced that you REALLY have given everything a chance, then you have to decide whether you want to live the rest of your life without sex. If the answer is no, then you need to tell her that and see how she would prefer to deal with that. Does she want you to see other women and if so, would she rather not hear about it?
She does not have the right to demand or expect chastity for virtual chastity for the rest of your life.
You will have a much better idea of where to go after those discussions. If she refuses to discuss this with you, then you may be at a dead end. And I, for one, would not at all blame you for committing adultery. I think you get a free pass if she doesn't meet you part way here.
bob
EDITED - inappropriate content.
This user has been banned
Dear trinity:
I am a pessimist in this sense. My experience is similar to yours. I like the mention above that:
"She does not have the right to demand or expect chastity for virtual chastity for the rest of your life. "
Unfortunately, there is no answer for you and me. I sense that you are in this "virtual chastity" and it probably is a topic you both avoid even mentioning, while you hurt inside. Welcome to a reality where women dictate how much sex (if any at all) while expecting fidelity from the male. I, just like you am mad and faithful. Can we be any dumber? I think the only savior in this situation is that past 50 your drive will slow down a bit too, and while the pain and anger will still be there, slowly they will subside and if your marriage still holds together for other reasons you will begin to forgive and maybe someday - forget - what was taken away.
Maybe the other people in this forum will give us ideas and advice, but my experience has been that "they don't know my wife". It's true that different people (wife) have other ways of loving and showing it. But for me sex is critical and should be number one on her list. I stand as your brother in all this hopelessness, but at least you and me can write about it.
I would really like to hear an open discussion and thought from the girls present here.
C
I really want to believe that the lower desire spouse is not purposely creating a life that makes their partner miserable. I believe there must have been something in the relationship that brought about a change in the sexual relationship and even the lower desire spouse would like it to be different but doesn't know how to get there. The "just do it" approach does not always work, especially if there is a reason that the spouse has pulled away in the first place. As you might guess, I am the lower desire spouse in my relationship and I would like to have a healthy sex life, but it is more complicated for me than just having sex more often. I tried the just do it, I tried to be compassionate and understanding of his needs, but he did not reciprocate and I became more and more resentful. In order to bring about change, I believe that both partners have to be compassionate towards one another and both have to be willing to alter expectations, try a different approach and be paitent and supportive of the other in their efforts. Unfortunately, my partner is not on board with me in this belief and I feel like my own relationship is hanging by a thread.
Thank you all for your responses. I decided to return to the board and give an update. Things haven't changed since I first posted my issue here. I have now been unemployed for the last 13 months and have been on receiving umemployment. Financially, I have structured things to where we can pay all our expenses each month and have a little money left over.
For my wife, she really loves shopping, sometimes just for the fact of doing it. I say this because she will go shopping and purchase a few things only to say she has nothing to wear the following day.
Last month, she went on her first vacation from work and I noticed that she didn't worry as much. She even initiated sex on one of those days and stated afterwards that she felt she was falling back in love with me. When she returned back to work, the stress returned and she wasn't that in love anymore.
My wife has controlled our sex life since we have been married it has decreased to us have bad sex 3-4 times a month and good sex once every 1-2 months. Just this past weekend, I brought up the topic of the 7 Day Sex Challenge in order to make our relationship a priority for 7 days. She became very defensive and didn't care to hear of any benefits that can come from the challenge, but rather focused on the issue of her having sex for 7 days and afraid she won't enjoy it everyday (have an orgasm).
It was at that point, I decided to stop arguing with her about sex since she has made it pretty clear that our relationship is not a priority to her. She tells me often that she wants to change, but doesn't know how. My wife will not read books, listen to others, research and isn't concerned with putting energy in something she has no interest in (sex).
I also just read an article by Michelle entitled, "Don't Forget About You". I realize now that I have done just that and will no longer continue to invest my all into her. I also heard about a spouse making the other the scape goat for their own problems. Here is a brief outline that has caused me to stop fighting;
1. When we married, my wife couldn't wait to stop working.
2. After our 1st child together, he became her priority.
3. I endured verbal and emotional abuse because I did't make what she considered enough money.
4. She made money and our children her priority and lost interest in our relationship.
5. She isn't thankful for much and constantly complains.
6. She hates working for anyone stays stressed out about it.
7. she avoids sex at all costs, even going to sleep early.
8. The majority of our marriage has been spent with me trying to please her financially while I endure the lost of affection and intimacy.
9. She feels she shouldn't have sex with me until she gets the financial security she desires.
10. I am tired of arguing and am willing to seperate until she decided to make us a priority in her life.
Bottom line, I am taking a stand for me and my emotional well being. I have given up friends and a social life to make her happy. Now, I am going to focus on me.
I'm not sure where I am suppose to post..a little embarrased and not sure how to start this conversation.I have been married for several years and have been discouraged and miserable with the lack of intimacy "sex" none (as maybe if I am lucky 2 to 3 times a year..First of all I knew all this before marriage..I thought he was a gentleman for starts and through 3 years of dating the same..(I know your all saying why did you marry him..) I fell in love with him..(I guess I was not smart) well after we were married for less than the first year I suspected him doing something on his computer..he would close windows as soon as I walked into the office..well low and behold I found out a lot about my husband..he was a porn addict..been doing this for years..also he goes through vaseline like its candy..anyhow that was 5 years ago..we have sought counceling..books..and more..and the anger in me is building up even more..I am yearning for physical and emotional connection with my husband..but it's not there..I have told him that I have been contiplating moving into our spare bedroom or leaving..he keeps saying things will get better..but after 8 years of the same talk and behavior..what does one do..the importance of this lack of physical and emotional part of our marriage just isn't there..what does one do?
Dear Cerulean,
I'm also a member of your club. I identify with all that you say. I puzzle how what I've said peacefully and in anger seems to be heard on one level, but to lead to no change. I accept that my wife suffers from many of the indicators for low sex drive... I've tried to be loving and patient and caring. A sex therapist had the gall to tell us that there was a simple chemical answer - but that my post-menopausal partner couldn't take, since she's also had breast cancer... What baffles me is that she seems to show no desire to re-discover desire. I bought SSM, and hoped that it would help. I'm now on my second reading, but she's stalled half-way through. I don't have the book to hand - there's a - for me - terrible passage near the end, where she says there may still be no change, and you can still decide to stay, and that's a strong choice, not a weak one. Indeed there are many shared years, interests, friendship, pleasures - but NOT SEX! Today I feel in total despair.
Sbrass - I am going to be a little controversial here. My personal feelings are that just as one promised to be faithful in marriage, so did one promise by implication that one would continue to engage in a mutually satisfactory sex life. In a sense, suddenly not having sex is a form of cheating too.
I can understand why you wouldn't want to throw away a life and a partner in that life because of sex. But having sex taken away from you may well do that anyway.
There are many potential solutions to your problem, depending on where you and your wife stand on this matter. It is not uncommon for a spouse with a low sex drive to wish that their partner would just secretly find some other outlet - be it porn or another playmate from time to time.
I don't know what you are willing to deal with, but if you are willing to explore other options, then you should discuss this with your wife. You may want to do that with a SEX POSITIVE therapist as a sort of referee.
Your wife's reluctance to rediscover those desires is not surprising. When someone has no desire for sex, one frequently has no wish to have the desire. It just doesn't make sense to them. I've been there myself, and I can attest to that.
While you may want to tread carefully and slowly, opening up your relationship may offer some surprising opportunities. I know it's unconventional, and may have others on this board up in arms. But there have been many people (myself included) who have found that a well regulated opening of a relationship can revitalize someone's sex life. And at the very least, will give the one missing their sex life some kind of satisfaction without the guilt of cheating and without hurting the person they love.
While this may sound terrible to some of the readers here, it is a whole lot better than trashing a marriage that both partners value.
I have heard of many women who have faced this issue. What is not clear to me is whether you are upset that your husband is attracted to porn or that he is not giving you the attention you desire and deserve.
Some women view porn as the equivalent of adultery. I think that is misguided. But if a man believes that you view porn that way, he will probably keep his activities secret.
The worst part about porn is that it can seem so convenient and allow the user so much control over their sexuality, that it can make real sex seem complicated and burdensome.
While many women think that men look at porn because they find the women in them more attractive, I believe that the attraction is more a matter of control. They can imagine these women doing just what they (husband) wants them to do and when they want to do it.
I have heard that many women have had some success sharing their porn experiences with their wives. Is there any problem with the two of you looking at porn together? If he begins to sense that you share some of the same sexual excitement, you may find that you will rediscover your initial enthusiasm.
after we were married for less than the first year I suspected him doing something on his computer..he would close windows as soon as I walked into the office..well low and behold I found out a lot about my husband..he was a porn addict..been doing this for years..also he goes through vaseline like its candy..anyhow that was 5 years ago..we have sought counseling..books..and more..and the anger in me is building up even more..I am yearning for physical and emotional connection with my husband..but it's not there..I have told him that I have been contemplating moving into our spare bedroom or leaving..he keeps saying things will get better..but after 8 years of the same talk and behavior..what does one do..the importance of this lack of physical and emotional part of our marriage just isn't there..what does one do?
I'm not going to say adultery is fine. I mean, we're on a site called Div Busting so Bob, have you read the books? It's NOT into open m's. And I don't think many m's would survive an ongoing A.
As for porn, I think there are 2 schools of thought among my girlfriends and sisters. On one hand, I have a friend who says, "I don't care where my h gets his appetite, as long as he comes home for dinner." In HER Situation her h and she both had similar sex drives and she was fine with it, but they had sex!
The other view is women who feel threatened. My h and I have not had the porn issue (that I know of). But I have to say, I'd probably feel threatened by it in 3 ways, I THINK...1) I'd feel comparatively unattractive since most women in porn have perfect bodies and no stretch marks from childbirth. Watching it is not a turn on to me, mainly b/c it's all about the women and I"m not attracted to other women. (Plus the dialogue is so bad, I usually laugh, and there are some that just freak me out b/c they are sooo, violent or demeaning to women. I guess there are some porn films not like that, but...)
And 2) I'd worry that maybe h was thinking of them, instead of me/us, while we were ML....do you get why that would bother me?
AND 3) if my h were using porn INSTEAD of ml to me, I'd feel he was being selfish. He'd deny ME, but serve himself? Geez, that's a huge turn off. Seems lazy and sooo not loving. It would be a red flag to me.
But I agree that any spouse who withholds sex from their partner for long periods of time, without some medical excuse, is taking a big risk. I have a friend who lost her h to an OW and was so sad. She told me she "knew there were SOME issues in their SL, but didn't know he was so unhappy." Turns out they had not had sex in 4 years...Wow, I had to ask her what she thought would happen after no sex for 4 years. She was devastated b/c she genuinely didn't seem to know how important it was to her h and I wonder if he really didn't tell her enough. She sure was shocked.
I think the spouse who feels "unattended to" has to explore other options, OTHER than adultery. To me at least. And for DB purposes.
ALso, what about when men face ED? Some of them cannot take viagra b/c of heart issues. Or they simply don't know that their w's are affected by their "in between" status...What would you say to the wife of that man? And what about the man who "needs" viagra, but hasn't made the effort? How can a woman gently suggest that her h pursue some aids, b/c it's very awkward for her. At first she'll think it's her fault, eg she's less desirable to him, or she'll fear he's having an A, but if the h is decent, he'll reassure her. Still, what's she to do?
As for menopause and libido in women, I can tell you that after the birth of our 3rd child, at the age of 37, for whatever reason, I completely lost my sex drive. This bothered me a lot. We still ML b/c I love the intimacy.
But after maybe over a year or so, it came back, thank God. While it was going on, I initiated ML much less, but I did not deny my h that, b/c even when the libido is low or gone, the desire for touch, and intimacy remained.
Can you give your w's back rubs without reciprocity? Foot rubs? Something without pressure? I think it can lead to the desire for more physical intimacy on the w's part and at least you'd be touching...
Today, I find I am working hard to get back to where I once was, in terms of libido. Here's my problem, I have libido but it's harder to access. My "engine" takes longer to turn over and get warmed up, so to speak. But once it's warmed up, It runs just FINE!...I have explained to h that I need more time to "warm up the engine" but he gets impatient. (I'm not talking more than 15-20 min, fyi) I think it's b/c HE is having issues physically too. And b/c it takes longer and we don't always have the time to make it good, I end up feeling less interested.
I will say that sex isn't just about a physical release. It can be celebratory (like at your kids' college graduation or wedding), comforting, (like when my mil died) forgiving or apologizing, after an argument, or just to connect. I mean, the lusty physical release is less frequent for many women, but there are all those other "Functions" of sex. Connecting...
I am on hormones b/c I want to feel like I used to. It's helped some. I have gf's who won't go on hormones b/c of cancer risks....I don't blame them.
But it is a legitimate issue for debate.
I wish I had answers for you all. But as for porn, that's my .02.
dear 25: First and foremost, I am not advocating "adultery", at least not in the sense of cheating. Cheating is wrong in poker and wrong in sex. What I am suggesting is that the possibility of a more open relationship can and should be discussed. It's an option, not a directive. And having an open relationship with rules that both parties can live with is a hell of a lot better than divorce.
As for porn - hmmm. Well, let's put it this way, if you are married to a man then chances are you are married to someone who enjoys porn to some extent.
While porn CAN become a substitute for sex, it can also be an instigator of sex. I find it amusing that some women claim that pornography causes sexual crimes while other women say that men use porn to replace their wives. Bit of a contradiction.
I think porn is a perfectly acceptable form of recreation. I also think that it is a bit of a stretch to think that your husband needs to think about you when he's having sex. I am more of a pragmatist (which I think is a very DB point of view). If it works, then do it. If your husband is choosing to have sex with you, then he's thinking of you quite enough. Controlling his thoughts steps over the line.
Some people have had their sex lives boosted by porn - especially if both h & w condone, accept and even better participate in it. Does that ignore the fact that some people become obsessed with it? No - not any more than the enjoyment of a candy bar refute the fact that there are people who eat too much candy.
Yes, men too have their issues with sex. E.D. can be a very difficult problem. But, as one prominent psychologist and marriage counselor wrote - if you can't get your penis hard, you shouldn't have the same problem with your finger. I can satisfy my wife completely (and frequently do) without ever having traditional intercourse.
So, the issue is, does one want to save their marriage, and do they love the person they are with enough to make the kind of changes that they need to make? Are they willing to cast off old notions of right and wrong in order to fulfill each other's needs?
As for your husband not willing to take 15 minutes or so? Sorry, I don't buy his excuses at all. Personally, I think that if he's not interested in spending 15 or 20 minutes bringing you up to speed, then it's time to lay down the law. You deserve the time and attention.
bob
Bob48,
Hmm, I am not really posting here except I thought you guys wanted some female input. Did you read my note in full? I said there were 2 schools of thought on porn and you only addressed the latter. I am sure my h enjoys some porn and I am mainly of the first school of thought ("as long as he comes home for dinner"). I don't mind him looking at it, within reason, whatever that means. I admit however that porn doesn't turn me on, partly bc I review films and the "dialogue"...never mind. But I think we all have some insecurities about our bodies and when a 20 y/o is there and in some cases, ONLY THEN do the h's show interest, of course that feels threatening to some women.
Rather than judging the feelings, or arguing about why they're wrong to feel that way, why not simply take in the information as being one woman's views?
I didn't say
I wanted to control my h's thoughts while ML. How'd you get that out of my words? I just admitted the fears many women have. I do not think i can or should control his thoughts while ML... we all have fantasy lives. Enough said.
But what I think you are advocating is an open m, & it just isn't in line with DBing. That's my main point. This site is a DB site.
People might actually argue that divorce is better than an open m. Why? B/C SOME prefer monogamy and a stable safe family life, and an open m, arguably, prevents that b/c you can't meet someone new and monogamous.
Are you only advocating this for those who deny their spouses sex, or who have different sex drives, and or - for those who's partners cannot physically have sex?
Yes some friends say porn is an aid to their sex lives. But I've had friends who claim thats porn wrecked their sex lives b/c their h's with held from them, instead, they were getting their pleasure from porn NOT their wives. It was easier to just please themselves...yes I would mind that. You didn't address that. See, sure It's one thing to use it as an aid, quite another to use it as a substitute when you have a willing partner. Make sense?
As for my h, the reason he doesn't always do the 15-20 min, is b/c lately, he cannot...it's a developing problem I am concerned about. That was why I asked the question about how to raise this matter. I take the point about fingers, etc but if the man isn't ready to see that he's not what he used to be, he may not yet realize that we feel the difference...AND OR, some men won't go for it at all if the are not going to "get their cookies". I assume the Same goes for women I guess.
And for MY sitch, which I wasn't really wanting to get into here, I feel he is just entering an in between gray area where he usually is fine and like old times, but lately I have noticed his ability has been...diminished. He's mortified, and very sensitive b/c we have always had an active sex life and I know he's prided himself on being good in bed, and rightly so. He's only just confronting it now, I believe. So, we're in a delicate place but we laugh about the commercials, ("for those with erections over 4 hours", I SAY I'LL CALL MY FRIENDS.
..)
But we have realized that at SOME point, we're going to be older and still want to have a sex life...and I think we'll be willing to do what it takes. Problem is...getting closer in time. Not a decade from now.
Also I talk about my doctor visits with the idea that I'm saying "hey, I am doing what I can do, to be as active and enjoyable as possible so...ahem." and he did mention the concept of a prescription the other day. I was enthusiastic but tactful, I think/hope.
Back to you, I asked about whether you had read the DB books. What do you think of their approach to this? (I think divorce Remedy had more info on it, as I recall). And your w?
just so I know, what's your signature block mean? Did you remarry your ex w or what?
Thanks, Bob48. But I need help to understand quite what you're suggesting, when you say:
Sbrass -While you may want to tread carefully and slowly, opening up your relationship may offer some surprising opportunities. I know it's unconventional, and may have others on this board up in arms. But there have been many people (myself included) who have found that a well regulated opening of a relationship can revitalize someone's sex life. And at the very least, will give the one missing their sex life some kind of satisfaction without the guilt of cheating and without hurting the person they love.
I'm ready for the unconventional. But I confess that I'm seeing no hope of change for the better.
I'm still puzzled. We live in such sexualized societies; articles, programmes, films. I would have thought that any person without desire would be wondering what they're missing out on, and what they can do to catch up! One suspicion that I have - this is the first time I put it into words - is that my wife went through a long psycho-therapy, partly revolving around her desire to be free of lesbian tendencies or temptations. My fear is that her fear of lesbian desire has killed all desire.
Bob48,
Hmm, I am not really posting here except I thought you guys wanted some female input. Did you read my note in full? I said there were 2 schools of thought on porn and you only addressed the latter. I am sure my h enjoys some porn and I am mainly of the first school of thought ("as long as he comes home for dinner"). I don't mind him looking at it, within reason, whatever that means. I admit however that porn doesn't turn me on, partly bc I review films and the "dialogue"...never mind. But I think we all have some insecurities about our bodies and when a 20 y/o is there and in some cases, ONLY THEN do the h's show interest, of course that feels threatening to some women.
Firstly, yes, I have read almost all of Ms. Weiner-Davis' books, and loved them. I don't recall any of them addressing open marriages, but it's been a while since I've read them.
Porn, like food, candy, alcohol, sex, gambling, etc can add to your quality of life or destroy it - depending on how they are used. If someone is addicted to porn, and using it to avoid intimacy and sex with their spouse, then that is obviously a problem. But MOST people use porn constructively and it can be a very nice addition to a couple's sex life.
Rather than judging the feelings, or arguing about why they're wrong to feel that way, why not simply take in the information as being one woman's views?
I didn't say I wanted to control my h's thoughts while ML. How'd you get that out of my words? I just admitted the fears many women have. I do not think i can or should control his thoughts while ML... we all have fantasy lives. Enough said.
Ok, fair enough. I don't think it's appropriate to judge someone's feelings. However, feelings and beliefs/thoughts are two different things. You can't control your feelings, but you do get to decide what your beliefs are. If your husband is fantasizing about another woman while making love to you, it is still an act of love on your part to share in his pleasure, and an act of love on his part to take the time to give you pleasure. Some people need/want/enjoy fantasies when they are with their spouse to get the kind of pleasure out of making love that they are striving for.
I understand the insecurities you are referring to. If it helps you at all, let me tell you that my experience is that while seeing very attractive women having and enjoying sex is a turn on, that doesn't detract in the least from the excitement I feel in experiencing my wife's womanhood. I am lucky in that my wife is a very sexy woman with a very fit body, but my prior wife was far from that, and I still wanted her just as much. I think that you will find that most men who love their wives find them sexy and attractive despite their less than perfect bodies. And even my wife, as hot as she is, doesn't look like a porn star! But she looks that way to me, because I am very much in love with her.
People might actually argue that divorce is better than an open m. Why? B/C SOME prefer monogamy and a stable safe family life, and an open m, arguably, prevents that b/c you can't meet someone new and monogamous.
Are you only advocating this for those who deny their spouses sex, or who have different sex drives, and or - for those who's partners cannot physically have sex?
You misunderstand my comments about an open marriage. I didn't mean to suggest that having an open marriage shoved down your throat is better than a divorce. I advocate discussing it, and its MANY variations, and seeing if that will work for both parties.
I know that if I felt that I had a much lower sex life than my wife and saw that it really saddened her and upset her, I would be willing to discuss the possibility of her having an occasional fling to fulfill her, rather than for her to be emotionally impacted by my lack of interest.
Incidentally, most people who have experimented with open marriages in one of it's many forms have found that they have that their own sex life together had improved exponentially. Both my wife and I would agree that it had that impact with us.
So, under THOSE circumstances, I believe that an open relationship is better than divorce.
It also forces the person with less desire to confront the issue head on and understand that he/she needs to do something about it. I don't believe that any one has the right to hold their spouses sex life hostage. In my mind, it is just not acceptable to say, "I am not interested in sex, so you will no longer have sex with anyone."
Faced with the alternative of having some outside activities, within negotiated limits and respectful of the needs of the lower driven partner on one hand, and divorce on the other, I would think the former would be more in accord with DB beliefs, don't you?
And for MY sitch, which I wasn't really wanting to get into here, I feel he is just entering an in between gray area where he usually is fine and like old times, but lately I have noticed his ability has been...diminished. He's mortified, and very sensitive b/c we have always had an active sex life and I know he's prided himself on being good in bed, and rightly so.
Yes, your husband may need your help in understanding that some of his abilities may be declining. What he needs to know is that his tongue and fingers are just as thrilling to you as his erections were/are. Beyond that, it is a matter of time to adjust.
Back to you, I asked about whether you had read the DB books. What do you think of their approach to this? (I think divorce Remedy had more info on it, as I recall). And your w?
I think that a lot of the suggestions made in the DB books to deal with sexual dysfunction are excellent. I haven't had that kind of issue for the most part. My wife and I have an amazing sex life, which is further bolstered by some outside activities.
.....But I confess that I'm seeing no hope of change for the better.
....One suspicion that I have - this is the first time I put it into words - is that my wife went through a long psycho-therapy, partly revolving around her desire to be free of lesbian tendencies or temptations. My fear is that her fear of lesbian desire has killed all desire.
There is an interesting book that my wife's sex therapist had her read and that my wife suggested that I read. It was titled Still Sexy After All These Years. It is a book that summarizes the interviews of literally thousands of women who were all over 50 in the US. It is about their libido's, and how they find love and intimacy as they age. It is scary (in the beginning) and uplifting (near the middle and end). You might want to get a copy from the library and read it.
Another thought, as corny as it may sound, is to not "give up hope." Being optimistic and visualizing success is (in my opinion) really important. One of the things that I like about MWD, her books and her approach is that she tries to get people to focus on the positive and give them hope through examples of one person being able to change the dynamics in a relationship so that the relationship is ultimately saved.
However, if you do finally give up hope, then figure out your own Plan B for moving on with your life.
Good luck to you.
...As for my h, the reason he doesn't always do the 15-20 min, is b/c lately, he cannot...it's a developing problem I am concerned about. That was why I asked the question about how to raise this matter. I take the point about fingers, etc but if the man isn't ready to see that he's not what he used to be, he may not yet realize that we feel the difference...AND OR, some men won't go for it at all if the are not going to "get their cookies". I assume the Same goes for women I guess.
And for MY sitch, which I wasn't really wanting to get into here, I feel he is just entering an in between gray area where he usually is fine and like old times, but lately I have noticed his ability has been...diminished. He's mortified, and very sensitive b/c we have always had an active sex life and I know he's prided himself on being good in bed, and rightly so. He's only just confronting it now, I believe. So, we're in a delicate place but we laugh about the commercials, ("for those with erections over 4 hours", I SAY I'LL CALL MY FRIENDS.
..)
But we have realized that at SOME point, we're going to be older and still want to have a sex life...and I think we'll be willing to do what it takes. Problem is...getting closer in time. Not a decade from now.....
Wow, my heart goes out to you.
I so identify with your comment about wanting to get close now, prior to the aging process and health issues putting more stress on the relationship between a wife her husband.
I suggested the book Still Sexy After All These Years to sbass, I would also like to suggest it to you. It relays interviews with women who have lost husbands, whose husbands have become impotent, whose husbands minds have been lost to Alzheimers, and relays how those women have been able to incorporate sensuality, intimacy, and sometimes sexuality into their lives.
My SSM wife really didn't want to go to a doctor to get checked out. But after the battery of tests and a few surprises, she indicated that she was really glad as now she feels her health has been protected and she looks forward to many years with me. That is my way of saying to you to keep encouraging your husband to go to the doctor to get checked out. It could be a simple as low testosterone levels or as complicated as heart disease or type 2 diabetes. In any even, just about anything is better dealt with sooner rather than later.
Good luck to you and I hope you find the happiness you are looking for.
YAH,
I already consider myself to be happy, and happily m. I'm simply trying to anticipate what might happen if this worsens (it's not a "frequent" problem yet, but it went from NEVER happening to maybe 1/4 of the time and yes, he "compensates"). And I have also started back on hormonal therapy so I know I'm "doing my part"...
My question is how to encourage an h to explore things like Viagra, while he doesn't yet "need" it. Seems better than waiting til he's already upset. And btw, he recently had atrial fibrillation despite being a runner and in shape and military. This shocked us both. WTH? So I don't know how that will affect things. He's now on meds for it but it freaked us out as he had to be "paddled" into a regular rhythym...sheesh, this aging thing could stink big time.
But I'll get the book you suggested. Thanks
....My question is how to encourage an h to explore things like Viagra, while he doesn't yet "need" it. Seems better than waiting til he's already upset.
...And btw, he recently had atrial fibrillation despite being a runner and in shape and military. This shocked us both. WTH? So I don't know how that will affect things. He's now on meds for it but it freaked us out as he had to be "paddled" into a regular rhythym...sheesh, this aging thing could stink big time...
First, if that happened to my wife (paddled back to life/normal heart beat) I would be so scared of loosing her. Take good care of yourself.
As to "premptive" medical options, well I have two thoughts.
The first is bribery. You are his wife and know him better than anyone else, including all his weaknesses. You can always ask him or give him some choices as to his reward.
Viagra and its sister drugs are sometimes sold as recreational sex drugs to people who don't really need them. You can tease him that you want to give him the Hugh Hefner all night treatment one night.
One of the best Dr. Laura episodes I ever heard was about Dr. Laura talking about helping your spouse loose weight. A woman called in and said she had figured out a sure fired way to help her husband loose a lot of weight. She told her husband that for every 5 pounds he lost, he would get to pick an outfit out of a Fredricks of Hollywood catalong(or some such internet website) that she would wear for her husband in the bedroom. She told him that for each five pounds of weight he lost, she would wear anything he choose, anything. She explained that her husband was now really motivated to loose weight and it he was getting really healthy. This was a woman who knew her husband and knew how to help him reach a goal.
I realize that your problem is different, but you also know your husband and probably what motivates him better than anyone else. So bribe him to go to a doctor and bring home a sample of Viagra or some such thing, if that is what you want and as long as it will not harm his heart.
Who knows you may find out he has a kinky side you didn't know existed (or that you or he pretended didn't exist). His ultimate fantasy might even be home cooked Sunday night dinners.
My second thought is to talk to him about it as ackward as it may be. After you read the book Still Sexy After All These Years, you could share with him some of the stories of women who have impotent husbands and how they have found ways to keep sensuality and sexuality alive with their husbands and how important that was to them. You could even just mark the story and have him read it and talk to him about it.
Tell him that you are committed to being with him until the very end and that intimacy between the two of you is very importantto you. You want to enjoy traditional intercourse with him while the two of you still can, as you understand that age and illness may get in the way of that at some point.
You might also tell him that you understand that there could be medical conditions that may make "traditional intercourse" impossible, and that you want to work with him prior to anything happening so that the two of you have explored a lot of options as possible.
I have had a few discussions with my wife about this topic. It was a topic that I brought up with our sex therapist that she could mediate for us. The therapist whose husband had died during a running race, told my wife that life is short and you need to enjoy what time you have together and either use it or loose it.
My wife, as the LD partner, really didn't understand my need and the importance to me of sex, but our sex therapist helped explain to my wife why it was so important to me. I also used the books Chapmans 5LL and Sue Johnsons Book, Hold Me Tight to try to explain to my wife why touch and sex from her is so incredibly important to me.
As my tag-line says, I am getting older and concerned about what health problems we may have over the next 20 years and want to have as strong a relationship as possible to handle the stress of aging in a youth oriented society. Until then I will exercise my butt off to stay as fit and healthy as I can.
Good luck to you. It sounds like you have a good man for a husband who keeps himself in shape. I hope that you find the love, sex, and intimacy you need.
I'll get the book, but h is an MD and seems tuned into things physically. He was surprised he was in A-Fib and it came up on a random physical (he's in the Reserves). Other than a cough, he was asymptomatic. Don't think I wasn't freaked, I was there with him to drive him home from the physical, when INSTEAD of that, he got admitted to the cardiac ward, and suddenly he went into respiratory arrest while they were trying to do a test...WTH??
A lot of slow motion recall...
Turns out his father has it too, although fil has it much worse. Anyway, h says that viagra won't hurt his condition but he has to monitor it. I think it's a bit of an ego blow to him b/c he's a health nut and is in the best shape of any man I know his age.... (well, except for this!)
But hey, I will get the book. And when my libido drops, as it has a handful of times in our m,
I notice. And I don't like it. To me it's like I'm not tasting my food anymore, and only eating "for fuel" purposes.
Forget that. I want to enjoy the food AND the "rest" of what life has.
I get it, YAH, trust me, I get it.
I may be a little thick or a little slow, but I've not understood your post of May 17, your slightly 'controversial' suggestion.
There are good days and bad days. It's a bad day. We've just celebrated her birthday. A romantic supper in a nice restaurant. And I ask, 'What are your hopes and dreams for this new year?' And there's noting related to our inexistent sexual relationship. How many times do I have to express my hurt, my despair, my unhappiness, my sense of failure and of being unloved and unloveable? What do I have to do to be heard?
I need some hope, some sense of even minimal change for the better, and I have none. But I still can't bring myself to accept that this is the way it will be, unless I chose to walk away - and for me that is not an option.
You don't shock me, but I'd like to ask you to spell out a little more clearly what you mean by 'opening up your relationship'.
I feel like a pressure cooker that builds up steam and then blows. For a while there's at least reality after the anger, and a little more cuddling, but that's as far as it goes. No real change. So the steam builds up for another bang. The latest being that she saw one of the books I've tried to get her to read lying on my desk. She says that she's ready to try to satisfy my needs more often. But my need is not just for sex. It's for 'making love'. Feeling loved and desired, and making my partner feel loved and desired.
You don't shock me, but I'd like to ask you to spell out a little more clearly what you mean by 'opening up your relationship'.
I feel like a pressure cooker that builds up steam and then blows. For a while there's at least reality after the anger, and a little more cuddling, but that's as far as it goes. No real change. So the steam builds up for another bang. The latest being that she saw one of the books I've tried to get her to read lying on my desk. She says that she's ready to try to satisfy my needs more often. But my need is not just for sex. It's for 'making love'. Feeling loved and desired, and making my partner feel loved and desired.
You have the same complaint many women have. Why not try improving your desireability and attractiviness outside of your wife. Do it for yourself.
You don't shock me, but I'd like to ask you to spell out a little more clearly what you mean by 'opening up your relationship'.
I feel like a pressure cooker that builds up steam and then blows. For a while there's at least reality after the anger, and a little more cuddling, but that's as far as it goes. No real change. So the steam builds up for another bang. The latest being that she saw one of the books I've tried to get her to read lying on my desk. She says that she's ready to try to satisfy my needs more often. But my need is not just for sex. It's for 'making love'. Feeling loved and desired, and making my partner feel loved and desired.
You have the same complaint many women have. Why not try improving your desireability and attractiviness outside of your wife. Do it for yourself.
We need to lighten up things on these depressing forums, so I decided it may ease your mind to laugh a little bit.
So a husband initiates sexual intercourse with his wife that night and she responds "not tonight, I have a headache". The husband says "ok honey, please forgive me". So the next night the husband initates sexual intercourse with his wife, being a little more patient and tender and she responds, "honey my head is hurting. The husband, embarrassingly not wanting to feel selfish says "ok, honey I understand, it's ok" and backs off.
The husband with his desire growing, initiates several more nights, being more patient and more tender each time, as he attempts to engage his own wife.
So the next week the wife comes early, she hears bed springs squeeking, and muffled sounds in her bedroom.
The wife realizes, her husband is having sex with someone else!
The wife bursts into the room and demands "WHO IS THIS?"
The husband says "honey, don't worry. This is your headache medicine"
Oh,
My friend who told me the joke, he said his wife never has headaches. I thought that was pretty funny.
I'm sadly coming to your same pessimistic position. I believe in marriage; I've taken my vows seriously. I've been faithful over 30 years. The sex is non-existent. I've tried everything I know. Michele's book gave me real hope, it spoke to me. But my wife says she just doesn't want to read it all, it doesn't speak to her. She's just told me that she thinks that she's basically a lesbian, that all her deep passions have gone that way, though she's never acted on them, and done her best to fight against them, which she now starts to regret. I suspect that her efforts to kill her lesbian desires have killed all desire. She does perhaps still love me, but she doesn't and can't DESIRE me, and I so deeply long to be desired... So what can I do to change that? Nothing, as far as I can see. I'm deeply despondent, shaken in my masculinity. The only possible glimmer of light is that we're both talking about it, and both seeking (separately) outside help.
Have you considered radical suggestions to shake her up? For example, suggesting, or even just wondering out loud, if you two should consider an open marriage? Tell her she could explore other women while you have a female friend with benefits? Even though both of you may not want that, I have found that just "wondering out loud" if the other person would want that can be enough to shake them up and make them value what they now have.
I once asked my wife if, since we aren't having any sex and she had refused to have it or talk about it, would it be OK if I had a female friend with benefits? It wasn't something I was planning to do, but the logic of the question was inescapable and seemed to make her realize she really couldn't support an answer which basically said I couldn't have sex with anybody at all indefinitely.
Thanks ssmguy. I jotted down in my diary just this thought this morning.
It's coming clear that in our marriage (of 30 years+), increasingly sex-starved, the problem isn't and never has been my wife's low or non-existent desire. My diagnosis for many frustrating years. The problem is that she is a lesbian who has long lived in denial and struggle against her lesbian attractions. So she cannot desire me, feel for me the desire that I long to feel from another, from my partner. We're talking things out; she's happier, more at peace now that she named and faced the problem. She wants to stay; we want to keep on together. We have a good relationship in every way but sexual, and the sex is seriously important to me, and currently non-existent. But how to carry on? Any ideas? Any others out there with experiences to share?
At least I feel slightly relieved that this is not about me, about my failure as a man, as a lover. What a lot of pain and suffering. But at times like this, it seems important to recall all the good times and the good things - other than sex!
It's coming clear that in our marriage (of 30 years+), increasingly sex-starved, the problem isn't and never has been my wife's low or non-existent desire. My diagnosis for many frustrating years. The problem is that she is a lesbian who has long lived in denial and struggle against her lesbian attractions. So she cannot desire me, feel for me the desire that I long to feel from another, from my partner. We're talking things out; she's happier, more at peace now that she named and faced the problem. She wants to stay; we want to keep on together. We have a good relationship in every way but sexual, and the sex is seriously important to me, and currently non-existent. But how to carry on? Any ideas? Any others out there with experiences to share?
Like I tell people, most things are completely "logical". They might not like it and it may not make sense to them, but it makes sense in the minds of the others.
Now the question remains, is that the wife probably likes you as her partner as her male representative. That she is attracted and desires the female and female form, you cannot fight this.
Can she come to appreciate you and learn to hug you and maybe small doses of affection that you would reciprocate to someone you know loves you through thick and thin?
Can she really not allow you access inside of her? Perhaps its not her favorite thing to do, but you can minimize your time... She can feel like she's giving that to you, if that's what she wants to do. Can she learn this?
If you don't want to divorce and you see no logical real reason you should remain sexless and without the affections of a woman, what other alternatives do you have? Outside relationship partner? If you have to do this, then why be married?
These are some of the tought things people brought into these spaces are forced to think about.
I'd love to hear about any others out there, whose wives find that they're really lesbian. Is it possible to find a way of living together that is satisfactory to both parties? I want and need help and encouragement that something's possible, that we could/can find a way forward together, and that leads out of this sexless desert that has so long depressed and discouraged me.
But what look so hopeless to me, at present, is that I don't just want sex. I want to make love, to be in a loving relationship, with someone who desires me, not just find sexual relief. And I just don't see how I can hope for that, when up until now, I've never felt able to force the issue of sex just for my satisfaction, when there wasn't any desire on my partner's side.
I'm troubled and discouraged. But perhaps I just need to be patient and give time to time. Only I feel that I've been far too patient for far too long...
I'd love to hear about any others out there, whose wives find that they're really lesbian. Is it possible to find a way of living together that is satisfactory to both parties? I want and need help and encouragement that something's possible, that we could/can find a way forward together, and that leads out of this sexless desert that has so long depressed and discouraged me.
Your wife has accepted she is lesbian ( sexually attracted to women, desires women and not men ) and you have accepted it too. It means she can physically have sex with you, she will not desire it and it may not even do anything for her making her feel invaded. You can possbibly make her orgasm orally.
But what look so hopeless to me, at present, is that I don't just want sex. I want to make love, to be in a loving relationship, with someone who desires me, not just find sexual relief. And I just don't see how I can hope for that, when up until now, I've never felt able to force the issue of sex just for my satisfaction, when there wasn't any desire on my partner's side.
Why is your desire for preferring to have a woman desire you adn want to make love to you wrong? If a woman feels the same way anyone on the earth would be able to understand it. I do think you should be able to get what you desire. For now, sexual releif is much better than nothing though.
I'm troubled and discouraged. But perhaps I just need to be patient and give time to time. Only I feel that I've been far too patient for far too long...
Yes, nice guying these things only builds up the comfort level in a position that you really do not like. I don't think it's reasonable to expect a lady to "put out" after a 3rd date for example. It's a great player rule that keeps men from being stretched out for dates, but if this is someone you love and care about - who says they might not want to wait until marriage or to make sure that you where the one they wanted to allow inside their body?
In a marriage however... How are you goint to marry a man ro woman and expect their sexual desire and need for intimacy to not be met?
No-one has anything to share that might help or encourage me?! Is there no-one who can help? I feel utterly hopeless.
I may be a little thick or a little slow, but I've not understood your post of May 17, your slightly 'controversial' suggestion.
There are good days and bad days. It's a bad day. We've just celebrated her birthday. A romantic supper in a nice restaurant. And I ask, 'What are your hopes and dreams for this new year?' And there's noting related to our inexistent sexual relationship. How many times do I have to express my hurt, my despair, my unhappiness, my sense of failure and of being unloved and unloveable? What do I have to do to be heard?
I need some hope, some sense of even minimal change for the better, and I have none. But I still can't bring myself to accept that this is the way it will be, unless I chose to walk away - and for me that is not an option.
sbrass,
I did help you... I gave some statements which may be construed as being cynical regarding the position.
It's a bad position. I've always been a "nice guy", even when I was a half way "bad boy"...
I still remember saying "what you won't do someone else will", when my then wife was attempting to justify shutting down my sex rate which at the time was not astronimical at 3-5 times per week.
I was being nice... Because I didn't want to cheat on her at the time and I didn't want us to have any problems, plus I wasn't lying.
If two people go into a relation where intimacy and sex is normal for them, there is really no good reason to shut it down barring health concerns. If one loses "interest" in the other, perhaps they shouldn't be married.
Everytime there is sexual copulation, there isn't going to be an elaborate ritual and hurdle hopping and hoop jumping. Sometimes you may not really have a huge desire at the moment, but you will not keep rejecting your husband or wife unless you want them to go elsewhere.
What else can you expect?
At least I feel slightly relieved that this is not about me, about my failure as a man, as a lover. What a lot of pain and suffering. But at times like this, it seems important to recall all the good times and the good things - other than sex!
You haven't experienced a failure as a man. You experienced a rough spot or possibly a dead spot, which has been known to plague relationships.
It can diminish your masculinity, as some of your masculinity was likely captured within your capability of pleasing a woman and being desired as a man.
No-one has anything to share that might help or encourage me?! Is there no-one who can help? I feel utterly hopeless.
The hope is that, there is no failure in you as a man. There is nothing wrong.
Your wifes sexuality and old desire of you, her viewpoint of you... It all injected in you as a man... Your comfort level within your own masculinity.
In any of us who don't have this filled by an outside source if it has been removed, we would be stripped, diminished...
Any self-respecting man or self-respecting woman for that matter, should achieve a moderate sexual rate within their own spouse. If the spouse had a physical anamoly preventing copulation, they would pleasure their love in some other way.
If it was real bad, if people wanted to stay together - they would advise their spouse to take on a lover. Sometimes this is the reasonable compromise.
None of us are on these boards because we want to cheat our spouses or leave our obolligations unfulfilled.
At some point if you will not take on a lover, and your souse continues to refuse you... You will have to move on with your life. There are plenty of women who would love to sustain a man like yourself, it would make them feel great about themself. They would do it like breathing air or breathing water. They would need you in that way.
No-one has anything to share that might help or encourage me?! Is there no-one who can help? I feel utterly hopeless.
Sometimes they cheated on you or shut you out for power and control. This is what it was always about to them, and they will usually never say a word.
You definitely need some professional assistance to help you get clarity on what your goal is. There are a couple of Michele's DBcoaches that could help you in this situation, as they have worked with many couples that discover down the line that their partner is gay. There isn't an easy answer, as you have to decide what you can life with (or without. I would be happy to discuss the coaching with you. Take good care.
All these years, all this time, all the books read, the hopes raised, the prayers made. The frustration. The fresh ideas: massages, sex-toys… but no interest. The therapy, the money spent on it. The anguish, the questioning, the doubts, the sleepless nights, the black thoughts. To get where? From a low-sex marriage to a no-sex one, but with the understanding why: the same sex attractions of my wife, and an asexual lesbian at that. So I just don’t have the right equipment!
We’ve tried to seriously look at divorce, separation, an open marriage, with our therapist. But both those roads go against all the values that we’ve lived for all our adult lives. We’ve examined the past, looked at our past history, tried to understand ourselves better. Listed and named all the good times and the good things that we share. Decided to stay together. To mourn together the passionate loves that neither of us have ever known. But it’s not easy to do! To hear your partner say that they have no physical desire for you at all, that anything beyond cuddles and hugs makes it a really difficult effort to make… (sex a sacrifice, a burden, a misery?) There’s no happy end to this story, and absolutely no sense of progress, just a better understanding of how we got to this uncomfortable place. So I have to make do with affection, tenderness, the odd caress.
There’s a lot of anger and some bitterness here, and elsewhere on the Web: marriage vows betrayed, lies, promises broken. That’s not my case. Though perhaps there is shared anger at ‘God’, who seemed to lead us to this place of pain. But I would really value hearing from other men in my position, who are trying to make their relationship work, who’ve not gone for divorce. I’m amazed at how quickly, after feeling up-tight and in despair, a simple caress from her can calm me down. Perhaps I just need more of this low-level closeness, a sense that she understands at least in part my frustrations.
I know that I cannot changer her; I can only change myself.
All these years, all this time, all the books read, the hopes raised, the prayers made. The frustration. The fresh ideas: massages, sex-toys… but no interest. The therapy, the money spent on it. The anguish, the questioning, the doubts, the sleepless nights, the black thoughts. To get where? From a low-sex marriage to a no-sex one, but with the understanding why: the same sex attractions of my wife, and an asexual lesbian at that. So I just don’t have the right equipment!
We’ve tried to seriously look at divorce, separation, an open marriage, with our therapist. But both those roads go against all the values that we’ve lived for all our adult lives. We’ve examined the past, looked at our past history, tried to understand ourselves better. Listed and named all the good times and the good things that we share. Decided to stay together. To mourn together the passionate loves that neither of us have ever known. But it’s not easy to do! To hear your partner say that they have no physical desire for you at all, that anything beyond cuddles and hugs makes it a really difficult effort to make… (sex a sacrifice, a burden, a misery?) There’s no happy end to this story, and absolutely no sense of progress, just a better understanding of how we got to this uncomfortable place. So I have to make do with affection, tenderness, the odd caress.
There’s a lot of anger and some bitterness here, and elsewhere on the Web: marriage vows betrayed, lies, promises broken. That’s not my case. Though perhaps there is shared anger at ‘God’, who seemed to lead us to this place of pain. But I would really value hearing from other men in my position, who are trying to make their relationship work, who’ve not gone for divorce. I’m amazed at how quickly, after feeling up-tight and in despair, a simple caress from her can calm me down. Perhaps I just need more of this low-level closeness, a sense that she understands at least in part my frustrations.
I know that I cannot changer her; I can only change myself.
I feel your pain. One thing though, you are getting older. Do you really want to leave this world having left the last X years of your life sexless and affectionless and just taking it?
Even if your wife is attracted to the same sex, she still as a wife, as a friend can allow you to occasionally feel sexual intimacy. She could look at it as a massage, that she provides to you. It might not be the way she wants to feel but it's not going to kill her.
If she will not take care of these needs, at some point you will have to decide to get it elsewhere.
Kindest Regards.
Sexless, yes, but not affection-less. That's not fair to her. There is affection. And she's ready to offer some sex, but cannot offer desire. And I - for now - have a real problem with just taking my pleasure when there is no exchange of desire.
The saga rolls on. Slowly. My lesbian wife says that she's ready for some sex - but I've discovered (or confirmed what I already knew) that I want to 'make love'. For me, sex isn't just about me having an orgasm. It's about an exchange of love and desire and pleasure. And she has clearly said that she simply cannot offer this: she has no desire, and no pleasure.
So now I'm really up against the wall. She reaches out and holds my hand as we watch television, and I am ultra-sensitive to all these small signs of affection, tenderness and closeness. But it's not sex. Up until now, I have been hoping that we could find together some 'modus vivendi', some compromise. She's clearly said that she's ready to make an effort - but it is an effort, not pleasure! So can I accept to live in an a sexless marriage, with someone that I still love, and with whom I've shared so much, and enjoyed so much with? Am I going to be able to mourn what I've missed out on and let it go? Or am I going to find that I am forced to look elsewhere - and see if she can live with that? And see if the significant other can also live with that?
My wife is strongly pressing me to do more things on my own, to make my own friends - and it's true that most of our friendships and interests have been shared. But she's not keen on climbing, and IF I spend more time away, I may meet someone else... one of my questions inside has been where would I ever meet anyone else... has she thought of that? Or is that what she's encouraging me towards? We do talk about just about everything, so at the right point, I will just ask her, if that's what she has in mind.
I still can't help feeling that there's some blockage in her that could still be unblocked, that her long battle against her lesbian desires has helped her to cut herself off from ALL desire. And that the therapy she's still having might, just might, still free her up. Even if that means she heads off for a lesbian love, I would rejoice, I think.
One day at a time; one week at a time.
The saga rolls on. Slowly. My lesbian wife says that she's ready for some sex - but I've discovered (or confirmed what I already knew) that I want to 'make love'. For me, sex isn't just about me having an orgasm. It's about an exchange of love and desire and pleasure. And she has clearly said that she simply cannot offer this: she has no desire, and no pleasure.
So now I'm really up against the wall. She reaches out and holds my hand as we watch television, and I am ultra-sensitive to all these small signs of affection, tenderness and closeness. But it's not sex. Up until now, I have been hoping that we could find together some 'modus vivendi', some compromise. She's clearly said that she's ready to make an effort - but it is an effort, not pleasure! So can I accept to live in an a sexless marriage, with someone that I still love, and with whom I've shared so much, and enjoyed so much with? Am I going to be able to mourn what I've missed out on and let it go? Or am I going to find that I am forced to look elsewhere - and see if she can live with that? And see if the significant other can also live with that?
My wife is strongly pressing me to do more things on my own, to make my own friends - and it's true that most of our friendships and interests have been shared. But she's not keen on climbing, and IF I spend more time away, I may meet someone else... one of my questions inside has been where would I ever meet anyone else... has she thought of that? Or is that what she's encouraging me towards? We do talk about just about everything, so at the right point, I will just ask her, if that's what she has in mind.
I still can't help feeling that there's some blockage in her that could still be unblocked, that her long battle against her lesbian desires has helped her to cut herself off from ALL desire. And that the therapy she's still having might, just might, still free her up. Even if that means she heads off for a lesbian love, I would rejoice, I think.
One day at a time; one week at a time.
There probably is a small percentage inside of her that is still straight. Work with her willingness to please you and take the sex. It might be the best thing you ever did regarding your relationship. It will change the way she looks at you, you look at you and she looks at herself as she allows PIV intercourse. I'd do all the sex acts that she would allow, do not overdo it or be inconsiderate to her feelings. So if she wants to put time delays on you, respect it. I now have hope for your situation, through SEX you can actually better the relationship you have with your wife.
It seems you don't know what YOU want.
Rather than looking at her willingness as an " effort ", why don't you accept it as the gift of love that it is?
Why not act " as if " she is making love? For it is coming from her heart, giving to you from her, and let that be for now.
If you analyze her sexual giving in the moment, then now matter WHAT she does, she cannot win.
Just do it, and be still.
Give it time and let her guide you with her sexual needs. Ask her what it is that helps her climax. Then DO it!
If everything is good outside of this, YOU need to come to terms with allowing someone to give for the sake of giving.
If you NEED to be needed in this area, ask yourself why?
If you feel close and connected everywhere else, why not allow this to be different, instead of having an expectation.
Exercise in thought:
What if you find a woman who you click with sexually, and then decide to divorce and marry her. What if she loses interest in sex, because of hormones down the road. You would have given up a whole relationship ( which you admit is good ) chasing something that may not last and be in the same boat, yet without the previous emotional history, love and connection? Is this what you want?
Also just curious...she's 67 and JUST coming out now?
How does she know? Has she acted on it? Or does she think she is due to low libido? Has she tried HRT?
Could she just be saying this because her libido is gone and she's confused about it?
Could she be saying she is because she just didn't enjoy sex?
Or doesn't want to work on herself in this area?
Just wondering for this is a Looooong time to be harboring those feelings without acting upon them. And at 67 what would be the point now?
It seems you don't know what YOU want.
Rather than looking at her willingness as an " effort ", why don't you accept it as the gift of love that it is?
Why not act " as if " she is making love? For it is coming from her heart, giving to you from her, and let that be for now.
If you analyze her sexual giving in the moment, then now matter WHAT she does, she cannot win.
Just do it, and be still.
Give it time and let her guide you with her sexual needs. Ask her what it is that helps her climax. Then DO it!
If everything is good outside of this, YOU need to come to terms with allowing someone to give for the sake of giving.
If you NEED to be needed in this area, ask yourself why?
If you feel close and connected everywhere else, why not allow this to be different, instead of having an expectation.
Exercise in thought:
What if you find a woman who you click with sexually, and then decide to divorce and marry her. What if she loses interest in sex, because of hormones down the road. You would have given up a whole relationship ( which you admit is good ) chasing something that may not last and be in the same boat, yet without the previous emotional history, love and connection? Is this what you want?
Her willingness and desire to accept you for PIV intercourse is a great start. Imagine if you will, that you could have the happy relationship that you desire and starting out a moderate sexual life. No cheating. What more can you ask for after having gone so long sexless.
I've had almost exactly the same encouragement and advice from a lesbian in a difficult low/no-desire relationship with her wife. And it rings bells. I think I have been setting my wife and myself the wrong hurdle. If she's ready to make an effort, it is out of love, and I should accept it as such.
She has struggled with same-sex attractions since adolescence, has had one brief lesbian affair, and several passionate attractions never acted upon.
I don't know whether this is true of makes sense, but I've said several times, and think, that her long and fruitless struggles against her same-sex attractions lead her to kill all desire, so she is now basically asexual. But it was an immense relief for her simply to 'come out', without acting on it.
I'm glad you have come to accept her giving out of love.
For there were times when I had to deal with the giving out of love situation with MY h. Rather than accepting, and embracing what I was giving at the time, he chose to analyze it. Ultimately he didn't see it as me trying to please him, but me just being a vessel. This was NOT the intent at all.
Sometimes one has to stop looking for the negative and just live the moment as it is. Things change if you allow them to.
I was judged and found guilty of not desiring him, when it wasn't him, it was me!
It set up sex with him as a no win situation. It added to my insecurity in this area, as well as feeling inadequate.
I would love to tell him this now, but alas he is in MLC and there is NOTHING I can say or do at this point. I pray he see's my changes, and that I love him enough to let him go do what he needs to do.
I am frustrated now, for I want him sexually and emotionally. I can get a sense of how he must have felt at times. Eventually I'll share, just not now.
Love her, accept her gestures and please her the way she needs. She will give you back the same. She has stayed with YOU for many years, because she loves YOU!
She trusted you to share something she has been hiding a very long time. That is saying something. I wish you well.
I wish you another level of intimacy and enduring affection.
<3
Sorry, I see that I failed to answer your questions. I'm taking some quiet time to look at blogs, fora and e-mails, and check any such loose ends.
As you say, curious. I think I posted somewhere else that when she 'came out' she said that she had, after our marriage, had one brief lesbian affair, not out of real love or attraction, but more to confirm her orientation. She then in following years had several passionate attractions to other women, not acted on. And never really enjoyed sex with me.
You ask 'what is the point now'? For her, it seems to be enough just to come out to herself, to me, and to a very small number of close friends, without looking for a lesbian lover. She seems to be happy and at peace, without any sex.
I am not. We've gone from low-sex to no-sex, and it's very, very hard to know what to do. How do you approach a lesbian who has clearly told you that they have absolutely no desire for you, and no desire for sex (at least with a man)? She has said that she would try to offer some form of non-penetrative intimacy, but so far no signs of that. Some hugs and cuddles, but no more.
We have recognized, put into words, a change in our marriage vows: 'for now, we stay together, until either one of us meets another love'. I am seriously thinking of looking for a str8 wife of a gay man, a mirror image or us. A couple wanting to stay together, but where the wide wants and needs some sexual intimacy, as I do.
So we'll see. As usual with mixed orientation marriages, up and down, and just now, I'm down. I see no signs of any change, though we've been talking very honestly and openly.
Sorry, I see that I failed to answer your questions. I'm taking some quiet time to look at blogs, fora and e-mails, and check any such loose ends.
As you say, curious. I think I posted somewhere else that when she 'came out' she said that she had, after our marriage, had one brief lesbian affair, not out of real love or attraction, but more to confirm her orientation. She then in following years had several passionate attractions to other women, not acted on. And never really enjoyed sex with me.
You ask 'what is the point now'? For her, it seems to be enough just to come out to herself, to me, and to a very small number of close friends, without looking for a lesbian lover. She seems to be happy and at peace, without any sex.
I am not. We've gone from low-sex to no-sex, and it's very, very hard to know what to do. How do you approach a lesbian who has clearly told you that they have absolutely no desire for you, and no desire for sex (at least with a man)? She has said that she would try to offer some form of non-penetrative intimacy, but so far no signs of that. Some hugs and cuddles, but no more.
We have recognized, put into words, a change in our marriage vows: 'for now, we stay together, until either one of us meets another love'. I am seriously thinking of looking for a str8 wife of a gay man, a mirror image or us. A couple wanting to stay together, but where the wide wants and needs some sexual intimacy, as I do.
So we'll see. As usual with mixed orientation marriages, up and down, and just now, I'm down. I see no signs of any change, though we've been talking very honestly and openly.
In another post you mentioned that your wife was going to allow you to copulate the relationship. That she won't necessarily get anything out of it, but would allow penetration to occur out of her kindness to you.
All of us are saying that you should take it. If someone step by step, walked over the the lesbian side of things, through development. They can also step by step, walk back to a more feminine straight side. It won't happen over night. But if she will allow you appropriate male-female interactions, over time she will be better for a wife for a man who knows he needs a woman.
I wouldn't overdo the sex. I would have enough so you guys are knowing you are having sex. So starting aroudn 2 times a week is a great start.
Once a month would be a great start! We've not had sex for nearly a year. And it is a great libido-reducer to know that your partner has no desire. But that said, we are both - I think - determine to try. And my ideas of what goes for 'sex' may change, may have to change. But some form of intimacy that satisfies us both...
Once a month would be a great start! We've not had sex for nearly a year. And it is a great libido-reducer to know that your partner has no desire. But that said, we are both - I think - determine to try. And my ideas of what goes for 'sex' may change, may have to change. But some form of intimacy that satisfies us both...
Imagine all the controlling people who think you are "wrong" or "childish" for wanting intimacy with your wife. They would literally provide you a life of servitude if you listened.
You know you deserve better, you have one life to live, and the sex life bleeds into every compartment of your life. You know it will make you feel more validated as a man, more confident in your abilities, less easily stress and chipped down, etc, etc.
To be fair, the 'controlling people' were mostly those saying that I should get out of my marriage. That there's no way of making a mixed orientation marriage work. I don't think anyone has simply preached abstinence and accepting a sexless relationship.
Although there are still few signs of change, there are some. And I am more at peace. I know that I really want to stay with this woman that I love, I want to make it work, though it may never (be honest: will never) be the sexual fireworks and the passionate desire that I always longed for. I'm glad we've not rushed and are not rushing, we are taking our time. At least I am now far clearer on what I expect and hope for with our therapist.
Thanks. And best wishes for the season and the New Year to all here. May 2014 bring us all a bit of new life, some unexpected joys, some pieces of healing.
To be fair, the 'controlling people' were mostly those saying that I should get out of my marriage. That there's no way of making a mixed orientation marriage work. I don't think anyone has simply preached abstinence and accepting a sexless relationship.
Although there are still few signs of change, there are some. And I am more at peace. I know that I really want to stay with this woman that I love, I want to make it work, though it may never (be honest: will never) be the sexual fireworks and the passionate desire that I always longed for. I'm glad we've not rushed and are not rushing, we are taking our time. At least I am now far clearer on what I expect and hope for with our therapist.
Thanks. And best wishes for the season and the New Year to all here. May 2014 bring us all a bit of new life, some unexpected joys, some pieces of healing.
You are right! It may never be the sexual fireworkds you desire, but it sounds like you will be able to have sex. And like I said, if you can boost her self esteem in it, she may really like doing it for you. I think that's worth enjoying.
To be fair, the 'controlling people' were mostly those saying that I should get out of my marriage. That there's no way of making a mixed orientation marriage work. I don't think anyone has simply preached abstinence and accepting a sexless relationship.
Although there are still few signs of change, there are some. And I am more at peace. I know that I really want to stay with this woman that I love, I want to make it work, though it may never (be honest: will never) be the sexual fireworks and the passionate desire that I always longed for. I'm glad we've not rushed and are not rushing, we are taking our time. At least I am now far clearer on what I expect and hope for with our therapist.
Thanks. And best wishes for the season and the New Year to all here. May 2014 bring us all a bit of new life, some unexpected joys, some pieces of healing.
I was assuming that you had many around you that could not sympathize with you on a sexless and affectionless position.
There's people out there in this world, completely isolated, no one around them cares because the other person is their favorite.
Imagine that?
She's trying to show more affection, cuddles and kisses. But I find it seriously difficult to know how to handle this, when I know, she's said it again and again, she feels absolutely no desire for me, no desire for sex. So in turn, I am cold. I need to work on this from my side. We have an excellent relationship in every way bar the sexual. And there, I have the pain, the devaluation of my sexual identity, of knowing that she will never feel the passion for me that she has felt for other women. She wishes that I would simply get over the gay thing and accept a happy sexless relationship.
O for some little, modest sign of some possible change for the better!
She's trying to show more affection, cuddles and kisses. But I find it seriously difficult to know how to handle this, when I know, she's said it again and again, she feels absolutely no desire for me, no desire for sex. So in turn, I am cold. I need to work on this from my side. We have an excellent relationship in every way bar the sexual. And there, I have the pain, the devaluation of my sexual identity, of knowing that she will never feel the passion for me that she has felt for other women. She wishes that I would simply get over the gay thing and accept a happy sexless relationship.
O for some little, modest sign of some possible change for the better!
Enjoy that. I'd work on building your desire for sexy and beautiful females in general. Restore this and then you can direct some towards her if she is receptive.
She has been your "wall" for so long, that it can keep you cold. You have to release the blocks and free that side of yourself.
I also coined the term "sexual identity". It must be fed and taken care of. It has it's own confidence and ego and maturity and skill.
I would let her do it, and perhaps encourage her to provide manual stimulation. Just let her feel competent and enjoy pleasing you and kissing you. Her feelings and confidence in it can become stronger.
March, now. No progress at all. I've said to myself, and to her, that there should be no major decisions before the end of the first year after her coming out - so May. But it's getting closer, and I can see no signs of change. Can I accept celibacy to stay with her?
March, now. No progress at all. I've said to myself, and to her, that there should be no major decisions before the end of the first year after her coming out - so May. But it's getting closer, and I can see no signs of change. Can I accept celibacy to stay with her?
No you do not. She doesn't get to define you that way. Take your life back. She doesn't have to be a lover of yours, but a good friend instead since that's the role she has chosen to fill.
No change at all; not a glimmer. She's entirely content with a sexless marriage; and I am not. There are days when I wish for an accident that would castrate me, and remove the problem! O for some progress and some peace!
No change at all; not a glimmer. She's entirely content with a sexless marriage; and I am not. There are days when I wish for an accident that would castrate me, and remove the problem! O for some progress and some peace!
Don't do that!
Why would she have sex? What is she going to get out of it that she isn't getting today?
I think your getting to a point where you can say "Well if things don't change I'm going to be forced to cheat or leave. now if I cheat, I will not sneak around. I'm going to have a sexual life, and your not allowed to control that. Me taking on a sexual partner or lover does not in any way mean I'm a swinger. If you decide to take on a man, I will leave you. Right away. I'm doing this because you forced me into the position. I no longer want it from you anyway"
You ask 'what is she going to get out of it?'. She could get a sense of being cherished and loved, and perhaps even a little pleasure! Such is my on-going dream. We have a long car journey ahead of us tomorrow, just the two of us, so time to talk!
Is this as good as it gets? This is a successful MOM!
Perhaps this is as good as it gets. After all, what is ‘a successful Mixed orientation Marriage’? Early next month we will come to the first anniversary of her coming out. And we’re still together, still exclusive and faithful to each other, and intending to continue that way.
What a year of trauma it has been, mostly for me, but some for her too. The ‘d’ word has been spoken, divorce. We’ve looked at all the other options: an open marriage, one side or both. Perhaps we’re going for the hardest one, or perhaps it’s the easiest, the one involving the least change. We both felt too old to start new lives. After all, there’s no guarantee of finding a better, more compatible partner if we separate. We’ve invested a lot, most of our lives, in THIS relationship. And there’s a lot of good in it. We like each other; we talk together, we do things together (and apart). But we’ve never had much of a sex life, and now we have none.
We’ve agreed on a weekly cuddle, on a fixed time and day, and being the eternal optimist that I am, I can’t help hoping that this may become a little more… But I think that for now, she simply isn’t able to give any more. Her long (30 years!!) struggles against her ssa have left her asexual. So there’s very little of the intimacy that for me is such an important part of a marriage. The total giving and opening up, the vulnerability, the no hold-back, the intimacy, the desire for the beloved other. And we’re both mourning the hot sex that we’ve never known and will never know.
But there’s a very deep intimacy all the same. She trusted me, she shared with me her deepest struggle, her darkest secret. We are friends and perhaps even lovers, but without the sex. Can this be enough for me? We’ll see. But it’s already a lot. But I have to learn to live with the present, with what I have, rather than dreaming of some future and improbable miracle change. This is a good day, with lots of good things in it, even without sex. Perhaps this is as good as it gets, and this is success, not the miracle that I was searching for on the web in someone else’s experience. With some magical way of arousing a lesbian who has no desire for me at all, but a lot of tenderness and affection. And there are no secrets, and there is trust. That’s a pretty rare and precious gift too. There are no guarantees for the future – but that’s true of every marriage. Ours are just lived with a far greater realism about the fragility of all relationships.
I am grateful for all the long-distance support of friends that I've never met in person, via the Web. My one regret is not having met in person with any of those I've found on the Web, and not met with any MOM partners in person here in Switzerland.
Is this as good as it gets? This is a successful MOM!
Perhaps this is as good as it gets. After all, what is ‘a successful Mixed orientation Marriage’? Early next month we will come to the first anniversary of her coming out. And we’re still together, still exclusive and faithful to each other, and intending to continue that way.
What a year of trauma it has been, mostly for me, but some for her too.
At least you get to accept that you mostly have to accept the proposition of male-female and penetrative sex with your current wife is over. It's humane versus leaving you in there with the prospect of it happening.
My problem I keep encountering is that even though it is not someone's personal preference, and even if they are not ATTRACTED, does it really kill them to share sexuality and GIVE it to someone that they care about?
I do know that allowing penetration by you, may kill or subside some of this lesbian strength which has built up over the years, and there is likely tons of maleness in you that will be restored by interacting closely with someone who see's you for the man you are and desires that man.
The ‘d’ word has been spoken, divorce. We’ve looked at all the other options: an open marriage, one side or both. Perhaps we’re going for the hardest one, or perhaps it’s the easiest, the one involving the least change. We both felt too old to start new lives. After all, there’s no guarantee of finding a better, more compatible partner if we separate. We’ve invested a lot, most of our lives, in THIS relationship. And there’s a lot of good in it. We like each other; we talk together, we do things together (and apart). But we’ve never had much of a sex life, and now we have none.
Not an easy propisition. I'm not happy for you that you had this denied to you for so long and now completely out of limits ( with this particular person ).
We’ve agreed on a weekly cuddle, on a fixed time and day, and being the eternal optimist that I am, I can’t help hoping that this may become a little more…
We all hope this. Does this cuddle "feel" good to her, even though you are a man? Do you feel restraint by her, or pained in the cuddle, or does it really feel like something she wants to share with you?
But I think that for now, she simply isn’t able to give any more. Her long (30 years!!) struggles against her ssa have left her asexual. So there’s very little of the intimacy that for me is such an important part of a marriage. The total giving and opening up, the vulnerability, the no hold-back, the intimacy, the desire for the beloved other. And we’re both mourning the hot sex that we’ve never known and will never know.
I fully believe that it is possible she has been asexualized or even a lesbian. No desire nor sexual attraction from a man. Actually it could even be a repulsion, the same as if you could sexually desire another MAN! Wow.
But there’s a very deep intimacy all the same. She trusted me, she shared with me her deepest struggle, her darkest secret. We are friends and perhaps even lovers, but without the sex. Can this be enough for me? We’ll see. But it’s already a lot. But I have to learn to live with the present, with what I have, rather than dreaming of some future and improbable miracle change. This is a good day, with lots of good things in it, even without sex.
Optimizm and overanalysis killing you, and taking you in. This is your image as a result of a reflection from her, an asexual or lesbian woman who has no sexual desire for a man. One who has grown comfortable with you in the position you are in.
Perhaps this is as good as it gets, and this is success, not the miracle that I was searching for on the web in someone else’s experience. With some magical way of arousing a lesbian who has no desire for me at all,
After all these years reading your posts, I also accept it. If she is asexual or lesbian, it is possible she has absolutely ZERO desire for a male, ANY male. That it is analogous to you having sexual desire for another male. A fit male, an unfit male, a alpha male, a bad boy. You will not sexually desire it no matter who it is, and sexually it may even disgust you to consider it!
but a lot of tenderness and affection.
Hugs holds and sweet kisses? I can't imagine tihs if you have to organize a weekly cuddle moment. If you have hugs holds and kisses from your now asexual or lesbian wife you have more than many of us sexless people are getting.
And there are no secrets, and there is trust. That’s a pretty rare and precious gift too. There are no guarantees for the future – but that’s true of every marriage. Ours are just lived with a far greater realism about the fragility of all relationships.
Yours is where an open relationship where you take on a lover is a sympathetic and loving guesture. Maybe she could find you a female for the role and it would be a loving thing for her to do.
I am grateful for all the long-distance support of friends that I've never met in person, via the Web. My one regret is not having met in person with any of those I've found on the Web, and not met with any MOM partners in person here in Switzerland.
Hi, DaddyLongShanks. You've been a faithful responder to my posts and my pains.
I'm moving towards retirement, and now don't work on Fridays, so Friday morning is hug and cuddle morning. Of course, I hope and dream that it may go further, but for now, I'm pleasantly surprised how much we both seem to enjoy this non-sexual time of bonding.
I am puzzled that for her 'coming out' was just the label, putting into words her lesbian desires. I can't help feeling that she's gone back into the closet, since she refuses to explore what being a lesbian could mean, even if it means staying in a relationship with a str8 man. But I am feeling at peace. I have made my choices, which were not imposed on me. But I'm not closing the door on more changes down the road. The only permanence is change!
Hi, DaddyLongShanks. You've been a faithful responder to my posts and my pains.
I'm moving towards retirement, and now don't work on Fridays, so Friday morning is hug and cuddle morning. Of course, I hope and dream that it may go further, but for now, I'm pleasantly surprised how much we both seem to enjoy this non-sexual time of bonding.
I am puzzled that for her 'coming out' was just the label, putting into words her lesbian desires. I can't help feeling that she's gone back into the closet, since she refuses to explore what being a lesbian could mean, even if it means staying in a relationship with a str8 man. But I am feeling at peace. I have made my choices, which were not imposed on me. But I'm not closing the door on more changes down the road. The only permanence is change!
You just like the challenge. Many of the wives who have went the direction of yours will allow the male to have a sex partner to fill that need. I know it will make you feel much better to have that part of yourself taken care of, and it may trigger something in your wife to see it.
We'll see. It's not wholly off the cards. She's said several times, more in anger than as a seriou suggestion: 'If sex is so important to you, why don't you look elsewhere?' But I do puzzle over the ethics of looking for a lover who could/would accept sex and not a relationship.
We'll see. It's not wholly off the cards. She's said several times, more in anger than as a seriou suggestion: 'If sex is so important to you, why don't you look elsewhere?' But I do puzzle over the ethics of looking for a lover who could/would accept sex and not a relationship.
In your situation, she has given you the green light and most people in this society could "forgive" you for taking care of your wife, while also taking care of your sexuality outside of her because of her becoming more asexual/lesbian.
I wouldn't wait around for her to do anything. I would observe what she is attracted to in OTHER men to see if there is anything that she's liking in others. I wouldn't be trying to catch her with the circumstances as they exist.
Free your mind by giving yourself the possibility of the entire world. There are 3 billion or more eligible women on this earth who could take on your sexual needs and be happy to do so.
As far as having a lesbian/asexual wife, attempting to feel a draw of attraction from her, or to feel the lust from a woman who desires you is not going to happen. So you are missing that type of attention. It's interesting she has it in her to do the cuddle sessions with you, especially if she enjoys the closeness with a MAN. It would normally be weird in your situation.
We all wish you the best.
I would get the wife to re-iterate that she does want you to take on the sexual and intimate portion from outside of her.
Then open your mind to the true possibilities which are ALL AROUND YOU. It will be freeing.
We'll see. It's not wholly off the cards. She's said several times, more in anger than as a seriou suggestion: 'If sex is so important to you, why don't you look elsewhere?' But I do puzzle over the ethics of looking for a lover who could/would accept sex and not a relationship.
"Ethically", you don't have a problem as long as you aren't sneaking around and she is aware of it. Considering the position you are forced into, it is a rather humane choice.
The problem is not mine alone. What do I have to offer another partner? Sex but NOT a relationship? A third person and their needs and respect for them, that's also in the ethical stew.
With great sadness, I’ve returned to Michele's book, ‘The Sex-Starved Marriage’. If nothing changes, she sees three possible outcomes: to stay together and keep complaining and stay angry and frustrated; to divorce or have an affair, or finally ‘to try a little acceptance’: ‘Three: you can decide to accept what isn’t changeable about your marriage. You can deliberately choose to let go of your ideal notion about your sexual relationship. If your marriage is basically a good one other than your sexual relationship, you can tell yourself, “I love my spouse. She is a good person. Other than our sexual relationship, our marriage means a lot to me. I’m not going anywhere. I wish things would be different, but I am going to accept him or her the way s/he is. I will not take his or her lack of interest in sex personally. It’s about him or her, not me. From now on, I won’t make sex an issue between us. I will focus on the strengths in our marriage and work hard at letting go of the rest.”’
That’s where we’re at. I’ve tried everything. We’ve been in therapy, together and apart. This book gave me great hope when I first read it – but my pushing for change only lead my wife to come out as a lesbian. And who can expect a lesbian to feel any desire for a straight man? I have so been hoping that we could find some form of compromise, some way of incorporating some gayness into our love-making. But my wife is really an asexual lesbian, with seemingly no ability to try anything, make any efforts (other than staying with me, and not look for a lesbian partner, no small compromise on her part). So with immense sadness, I am trying to mourn the sex-life I’ve never had and now will never have, and as Michele suggests, focus on the good things that we do have and share.
I do plead for greater awareness and visibility for Mixed Orientation Couples, and notably this minority of a minority of which I am part: the straight men married to lesbians, and wanting to stay with them, and try to make this hellishly difficult dynamic ‘work’.
Hi sbrass,
‘Three: you can decide to accept what isn’t changeable about your marriage. You can deliberately choose to let go of your ideal notion about your sexual relationship. If your marriage is basically a good one other than your sexual relationship, you can tell yourself, “I love my spouse. She is a good person. Other than our sexual relationship, our marriage means a lot to me. I’m not going anywhere. I wish things would be different, but I am going to accept him or her the way s/he is. I will not take his or her lack of interest in sex personally. It’s about him or her, not me. From now on, I won’t make sex an issue between us. I will focus on the strengths in our marriage and work hard at letting go of the rest.”’
This is where I'm at, except I still feel it can change as W works through her crisis, and learns to trust me again. The fact that she doesn't have an OM and is still in the M means a lot to me. I can't see myself bailing on her just because she's not interested in, or ready for, a sexual relationship. The rest of our relationship is worth too much to me.
That’s where we’re at. I’ve tried everything. We’ve been in therapy, together and apart. This book gave me great hope when I first read it – but my pushing for change only lead my wife to come out as a lesbian. And who can expect a lesbian to feel any desire for a straight man? I have so been hoping that we could find some form of compromise, some way of incorporating some gayness into our love-making. But my wife is really an asexual lesbian, with seemingly no ability to try anything, make any efforts (other than staying with me, and not look for a lesbian partner, no small compromise on her part). So with immense sadness, I am trying to mourn the sex-life I’ve never had and now will never have, and as Michele suggests, focus on the good things that we do have and share.
I do plead for greater awareness and visibility for Mixed Orientation Couples, and notably this minority of a minority of which I am part: the straight men married to lesbians, and wanting to stay with them, and try to make this hellishly difficult dynamic ‘work’.
I applaud you for sticking it out and "trying everything". I question how long you'll be able to accept a situation that you see as a "hellishly difficult dynamic". If you can't find a way to see it in a more healthy light, it will not work well for you.
As good as it can be, sex really is only one part of a M. How important of a part we allow it to be is up to us.
I'm working to really, deeply accept the reality of our situation, as it is. A church minister friend challenged me some time back to see ‘paix et plénitude’. I had an hour with him two days ago. I said that I could see some glimpses of peace, but none of plenitude, though of course I’d accept the gift it was given.
He rightly says that these things have to be found alone, cannot depend on what others give or don’t give. But his picture of marriage seems to be (is he just saying this for me?) pretty minimalist. A companion in life can be cherry on the cake, a nice extra, on top of the peace and plenitude found elsewhere. He talked of Mandela, who found spaces of freedom within the prison, and said that I too can find places of freedom, within a partial prison. Yes. He said that he heard in me several different voices, and that’s normal (head, heart) but that it might help to try to separate these different voices are saying. Yes again.
He wonders if I don’t need to undertake a serious psychotherapy. Perhaps. I said I’d keep the thought in mind, but that I have a feeling that I’ve just taken an important step, not just one in the head, but head and heart, of giving up all hope of change, and mourning what I will never have. He didn’t like the word ‘mourn’ at all. He wanted to call it a parenthesis. But I insisted. I’m giving up all hope of change. I feel that’s important; that’s what I need to do. The hope of peace lies in giving up any hope of change, if that makes any sense?
Still no real change, but more peaceful now that I've accepted that she won't/can't change, just isn't able to, for whatever reasons. I suspect that there's a real danger that IF she reconnected with her sexual self, she'd leave me for another woman.
Starting with a new therapist next week... In English. (I live in Switzerland, and all therapy thus far has been in French.)
Still no real change, but more peaceful now that I've accepted that she won't/can't change, just isn't able to, for whatever reasons. I suspect that there's a real danger that IF she reconnected with her sexual self, she'd leave me for another woman.
You should be thanking her in that case, you guys can be best buddies, and you can find someone else to use as lover and sex partner on towards the 2nd half of your life...
Starting with a new therapist next week... In English. (I live in Switzerland, and all therapy thus far has been in French.) [/quote]