Basic Stats:
10 yr R 7 yr MR
2 Step Ss (18 and 20)
2nd MR for both
Looking back I feel my H started his MLC about 3 yrs ago. I just didn't understand what was happening. Life had been very stressful with a crazy XW, ill/aging parents, job stress, kid stress, etc. I also started early into menopause (probably triggered by all the stress). When the pandemic began I asked if we could just put differences on hold and get through it. I thought we were doing okay, but hell, last year was a blur as menopause was not kind to me so I was exhausted and in a fog and barely functioning. I finally got the right help and started to feel better and my H gave me the Big D talk, but couldn't tell me why exactly. I asked if he was having an affair but he said no. He had been cheated on before so I never thought he'd do that to me, but I asked anyway. It all seemed so out of the blue to me that he had come to this point. I reacted badly due to the shock, cried, begged pleaded etc. He sort of said he'd consider it and left me hanging for a few weeks until he finally said he was done.
So I kicked him out. He said he was going to a mutual friends house, and I thought that would be good for him. He oddly seemed very cold and unemotional as he was leaving and kind of in a hurry. Long story short, I don't believe he actually went to the friends house, but rather to meet his OW (EA at this point I believe). He had talked to me about his other relationships and this one in particular had been hard for him as he almost married her. I'd never been a jealous type and totally trusted him, so when he said he had an opportunity to see her I said, yes, I think you need to get some closure on that one, so it would be good for you. He saw her and I thought nothing else of it. But again, I was in my own fog... When I discovered evidence of the affair, I texted him and said I knew what he was doing and only then did he admit to the OW, but claimed he had never cheated on me...and had been in this for at least six months. He didn't tell anyone, not even his friends until after I knew. Everyone told him he is crazy and this OW is just a fantasy and he should work on our relationship. I helped raise his kids with some very bad stuff from the XW and they said I didn't deserve this. But he's not listening to anyone.
They are still communicating, and he says he doesn't want to work on the marriage and still wants a divorce. Since then he's spent time away as well as spent time here at our home staying in the basement. I started a marriage saving program and have been doing some of the suggested things such as being positive, GAL, trying to connect without coming on too strong, not talking about problems or the affair, etc.
So things have been very nice and civil between us. I know he has filled out some stuff online through a divorce website, but he has not actually served me yet. As for the MLC, looking at the signs and the actions, he fits many of them to a T. I can see now why things in our relationship had become so hard...with walking on eggshells, criticism, judgement, and other odd behaviors. He seems like a totally different person. As for the OW, she is NOTHING like me, very religious and is married and has been for 20+ years. I don't even know if her husband knows. H does not believe in religion. And obviously she is a hypocrite to have an affair and pretend she is walking a pure path.
Anyway, if I saw that this woman fit him, I'd feel like maybe it was a WAS sitch, but I do think it's MLC and this relationship broke something that he is needing to fix. Anyway, right now she lives in another state, but he is still pushing hard for divorce. At this stage, I'm not sure if I should keep contact or go dark. I've not been needy, have made no demands, I just only pointed out that I won't help him divorce me and destroy our family; I need to know that I tried...and we really never did counseling or tried. We just got caught up in the stress of the last few years...and neglected to work on it...and obviously he was not even focused on us if he was having an EA. He's drained accounts and bought toys etc.
So, I am not sure how to protect myself other than divorce. I am going to see if he will sign an agreement about the funds he's spent come from his side of the assets, but the L is behind and I worry it won't get signed before I am served. Anyway, looking for any specific advice on how to proceed as well as I just need to communicate with others that understand what I am going through. Thank you for this forum and for the amazing information on it. It's really helped me a lot (as well as the heart's blessing MLC site).
Thanks.
Welcome! I am pasting in Cadet's Welcome posting for you. BTW, you may want to also pop over to the MLC Forum for additional information on MLC and visit some of the thread for additional assistance.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htmand Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Last edited by Cadet; Mon Jun 15 2020 07:23 AM.
Me-66, D33,S32
Hello and thank you! I’m glad to be here. I’ve already spent a lot of time on the site and have read all of the links provided above thus far. I feel in general terms I might be doing the right things, but hard to tell as every relationship is different. The other thing I struggle with is the marriage program I am doing says to be pleasant, show your best self, try to connect but not push too hard or be too lovey, but many MLC articles say pull away and be more detached, and make them engage with you. I fell like I’m doing both to a degree right now...depending on the day or his attitude...and not sure what is best for my scenario. Marriage fitness says be there, that once they come out of the affair they need to know you are there to stand a chance at reconciliation. But other articles I’ve read (including here) is to be more distant and detached and wait for him to engage. Both seem logical. Does his being in MLC crises determine the greater level of detachment I should do? Is he just pushing divorce to settle his guilt in the affair? Should I be cooperative in the divorce? Thanks for your advice.
I thought I replied but I don’t see it, so I’ll try again. I’ve been digging around the forum for a while so I have read the links you provided. Thank you for those, they’ve offered a lot of good information. I have ordered the books, but they have not arrived yet. I guess I’m wondering if there is any specific advice in my sitch. I’ve been civil, my best self, GAL, but trying to connect but not come on strong or make any demands. However, from the forum, if this is an MLC and not just an affair, is it better to be very detached and less pleasant? I don’t mean nasty, I mean more standoffish but nice, cool but not engaging unless he initiates, etc. if he’s deep in the fog and in luv with OW, does it really matter whether I am hot or cold at this point?
The books arrived today! I can’t wait to dig into them tonight. Staying hopeful. Read the threads from the veteran’s. Gives me lots of hope and good ideas.
Elbereth, wow, sorry you are going through so much. Marital issues, MLC, spouse, pandemic, menopause, work stress, worrying about the future, etc.
Your situation is very complex, more complex than most. My first and best piece of advice is to get into IC if you aren't. You need to be able to process your feelings and thoughts, and a good IC can help with that.
I also see a tendency to fixate on his MLC. If you have read and listened to Mort Fertel then you know from the WAS' standpoint they do not see the MLC as a crisis at all! They see it as an awakening, and epiphany. They see it that they've never thought more clearly before. Also, diagnosing it as a MLC is not a quick fix. So many LBSs take comfort in focusing on the fact that their WAS is going through a MLC, when in some ways that is the worst thing that could be happening. Most MLCs last years at a minimum. So if it is an MLC, you could be looking at a very very long haul.
So I encourage you to forget about OW. Stop focusing on your H, and turn that attention and focus to yourself. GAL, go out and live your best life. Reconnect with friends, pick up old hobbies you may have left behind, and be open to new friends and new hobbies. Get into IC, and focus on self-improvements. Try to become the best version of yourself that you can be. And finally work on detachment. Try to get to a place where his crazy has no emotional impact on you. You cannot control his crazy, so do your best to let it go and realize this is about him, not about you. We LBSs internalize so much that we forget that what the WAS is doing really has a lot less to do with us than we think. Detachment is a wonderful place to be, and will help you see and operate more clearly.
Hang in there. These things are marathons, not sprints. So focus on the one person you have full control over....yourself!
Hi Steve85,
Thank you for responding. I have fixated on his MLC, I can't deny that. I'm a very analytical person and actually digging into the details has also allowed me to remain as calm and detached as I have been--as I can understand better how I have no control over his actions or feelings as well as it helps to realize it's not about me (not that I was perfect partner for my part either).
I've not told him he is in crisis or anything, but yeah, I agree he is seeing things the way you describe. He does have a tendency to not finish things and to run, so this is another manifestation of those tendencies I think. I am doing my best to focus on myself and actually that has been so much easier now that I am physically feeling better and feel more like myself again now that I got the help I needed medically. I was suffering from some major stress and anxiety, so I've been getting my heart checked and other tests to ensure I am on track to being healthy again. So far so good. I've lost weight, I'm working out again, doing self-care, reading and doing a lot of things for growth and development and just trying to be the best me. I've actually done pretty well in not responding emotionally and not engaging in drama. Overall, he was actually acting better as a roommate than he'd been for the last few years as a H. Even when I told him I would not help with the D, he didn't respond with anger, which surprised me.
He has been staying here for weeks, but this week he says he's going to stay elsewhere. Odd, as now our S is over again, so you would think he would want to stay here while his S is here (he goes back and forth between bio-moms house and ours every 2 wks). Anyway, he is also taking a trip all of the followoing week as well...and I am assuming he is seeing the OW as he is again going to the other state. I just hope he does what I asked and if he sees her that he stays away until he's quarantined to protect me and our son from Covid. I have hardly even brought her up. I only asked that he not wear a ring from her in my presence and if he sees her to quarantine. That is it. No other questions, no R discussions in detail, nothing.
As for IC I was...until recently. But I started to feel like he wasn't doing exactly as you suggested and I want, dig into my feelings and thoughts and growth. So I am looking at other options. He also asked if I was interested in dating for the PT I am missing...I was like WHA? Weird.
No.
My first M almost 20yrs with 2 yrs of counseling. So it's important to me that I walk away feeling I did what I could to have my own closure if things do not work out. So that is my current goal, move forward with integrity, true to my principles, etc.
I guess what is hard, is if he serves me for a D, should I go along, or is being resistant to helping causing more harm than good? I do need to protect myself financially, as he has drained accounts, bought expensive toys, etc. He also wants to sell our home in a few months which is disrupting to our S who is having the 'worst Senior year' already due to Covid. So for now, I've just been trying to stall as well for S's stability. H thinks "he will be fine, he needs to know I need to be happy" but I worry that his boys will suffer in the future, and even though I am step-m, I want to remain in their life and hopefully show that commitments matter and you can have integrity and principles and still move on if its not working.
Anyway, I feel like I am rambling... Thank you all for listening and for the support.
ICs are like anything else. Shop around until you find the one that works for you. And I certainly agree with changing ICs. Am I understanding that HE, the IC, wanted to date you? Or was he just telling you should date? If the first, then yeah that is a violation of ethics. If the latter, then he is just giving bad advice. Either way, time to find a better IC.
As far as the D, my advice is to not help nor hinder. What does that mean? You make him do all the work. If he asks about documentation, you point him to where the documents are filed (or if kept online, the account to access) but let him dig through and find the document or go online and print it out. You do not actively "resist" the D, but you don't help move it forward either.
Keep moving forward!
That helps, I told him I wouldn't help, but wasn't as clear on the 'resist part'. Thanks for that!
As for the IC, I think it was his advice and it made me very uncomfortable. So, I'm on the hunt for a new one as well as I have been reading several books as well.
Moving forward one day at a time...
That helps, I told him I wouldn't help, but wasn't as clear on the 'resist part'. Thanks for that!
As for the IC, I think it was his advice and it made me very uncomfortable. So, I'm on the hunt for a new one as well as I have been reading several books as well.
Moving forward one day at a time...
One think I truly believe when it comes to IC is that you should find one that aligns with your beliefs. For me that meant a faith-based Christian IC. Some might prefer a different type of IC. But if the IC is antithetical to your principles then you should probably move on, and it sounds like this one was. Don't give up on IC, just give up on THAT IC.
Steve85, I'm in total agreement there. I do feel there is a lot of value in the process...but you are right that they have to be a good fit, and also pro-marriage.
I am new here and just read through your sitch. I see many comments about "friend zone". Could someone explain to me a little more about how this is different than being detached but also trying to connect with H/W?
My H hasn't served me D papers yet, but he is having a EA/PA. I've been detached but friendly, still discuss work and other non-essential things. We are separated but in same house.
I guess I'm trying to understand at what point I should shift to avoiding being in the "friend zone" and more cold and detached? Once H serves me papers? At this point, I've told H I want to work on M but he is resistant.
I work with him which makes it even more complicated.
I'm sorry NZkiwi for what you have gone through. You sound like such a great dad.
Pulling this from NZ's thread to answer here.
Elbereth, the FZ is largely a male position where women like certain men as friends but nothing more. I have read opinions that women know in the first minute of meeting a man if she could ever be intimate with him, or if he is just "friend" material. Men will sleep with just about anyone.
Men have their own quirks though. There are women that a man only wants sex with, those women that a man wants to be FWBs with, and then those women a man is willing to bring home to mom (relationship material).
So in your sitch Elbereth, I am less concerned about the FZ because MOST men aren't interested in being friends with an ex. In other words, if your H ends up leaving likely he won't be interested in talking to you. Or hanging out with you platonically. Men sometimes use friendship to try to have more with a woman (sex and/or R), so if he truly moves on from you likely he won't try to friend you because he won't be interested in trying for the sex and R part.
So Elbereth, your goal is to be friendly, upbeat, fulfilled and pleased around him. But not to let his words and actions cause you to react emotionally. Even if you get hurt, upset, shocked, etc on the inside, on the outside you are cool as a cucumber. Detachment is never cold. If you start getting cold toward him then you are doing it wrong.
As far as trying to connect with him, I caution you here. Trying to connect with him involves pressure and pursuit, which you are trying to avoid right now. Instead, continue to focus on yourself. GAL as much as possible, stay busy. Keep working on becoming the best version of yourself you can. And work on detaching more and more. Detachment is not like a flip you switch, it takes work and time to get good at. So keep working on it.
Hey Elbereth.
After being through my own D, I no longer believe that we should focus on saving the marriage. I know that's how we all ended up here, but it's a flawed approach.
It's flawed because what we had is broken. What we had is gone now. We really don't want it back. We lie and say we do, but what we really want is A GOOD MARRIAGE. And to be honest, what we had wasn't a good marriage. If it was, it would still be intact. Even if you were the perfect spouse 110%, you can't be responsible in the least for another human's shortcomings.
So now, instead of worrying about your spouse and their underhanded BS what you need to do is worry about yourself. Make yourself the priority. Too many LBS's worry about their waywards. Don't. Your husband is fine, trust me. He's doing exactly what he wants to do right now.
Crappy huh? That's hard to hear but it's the truth. He's doing what he wants right now. He's doing who he wants right now.
You need to detach. You do that however you need to. Detaching is for your protection. It doesn't matter if your STBX thinks you're being mean or rude or whatever. Trust me, they can gaslight and manipulate perception of reality to make you seem like the bad person REGARDLESS, no matter how compassionate or cordial you are. So protect yourself however you need to.
So from this point on and FOREVER, you have to live your life 100% for yourself. Nobody else. You are a strong and worthy person. You deserve peace and happiness. Make the decision to love yourself enough to put yourself first.
And one more thing: get yourself a good attorney. Don't negotiate with terrorists. Get a good attorney that has YOUR interests in mind. DO NOT use the same attorney and think you are being gracious, or saving money, or being a good person. There is no such thing as "GOODNESS" in a divorce. A divorce is a business transaction.
[quote=Elbereth]
So Elbereth, your goal is to be friendly, upbeat, fulfilled and pleased around him. But not to let his words and actions cause you to react emotionally. Even if you get hurt, upset, shocked, etc on the inside, on the outside you are cool as a cucumber. Detachment is never cold. If you start getting cold toward him then you are doing it wrong.
As far as trying to connect with him, I caution you here. Trying to connect with him involves pressure and pursuit, which you are trying to avoid right now. Instead, continue to focus on yourself. GAL as much as possible, stay busy. Keep working on becoming the best version of yourself you can. And work on detaching more and more. Detachment is not like a flip you switch, it takes work and time to get good at. So keep working on it.
The above really helps to clarify, thank you! I do feel like I'm generally doing most of those things, so I'm on the right track. When I say 'connect with him', I'm doing so in ways that I don't feel are pressuring. For example, when he stayed at a friends house, I made him a favorite food item, or I send him an article I think he will enjoy...things that show I know him well, but not very intimate or love things. Hopefully that is a good thing? Or do you think I'm pressuring him even when he's not acting like I am?
Hi Joe2017,
Thanks for your insight. I agree with you in many ways, but not all. I do agree that the MR we had was not good. So I have accepted that it is dead. What my hope is, is to have the opportunity to create a new relationship that is better than the old marriage. I know that what I hope to do is most likely not going to happen and I will most likely end up D'd. But in part of this process, I hope to better understand myself, understand what went wrong and know in my heart that I did everything I could to save the marriage. To me, the commitment I made is a serious thing. Not something I take lightly. And much of my current actions are for me. Sure, I want to the do the right things that might help in my situation, but my main focus is on myself. As that is all I have control over. And my kids. For me, I need to know that I tried, even if I don't get results. I can't move on if I don't do what I believe is the right thing for me to do.
I have set boundaries where necessary, and I think I'm detaching in a positive way. I am calm, getting healthy, GALing and yes, I am sad, but have a level of peace as I've accepted that this is where it's at. I also do have a lawyer and am taking precautions. Yes, divorce is messy, and I am no stranger to it...I've got one under my belt already.
Thank you for your honest words! The hard truth is good. I am moving forward with my eyes wide open!
[quote=Elbereth]
So Elbereth, your goal is to be friendly, upbeat, fulfilled and pleased around him. But not to let his words and actions cause you to react emotionally. Even if you get hurt, upset, shocked, etc on the inside, on the outside you are cool as a cucumber. Detachment is never cold. If you start getting cold toward him then you are doing it wrong.
As far as trying to connect with him, I caution you here. Trying to connect with him involves pressure and pursuit, which you are trying to avoid right now. Instead, continue to focus on yourself. GAL as much as possible, stay busy. Keep working on becoming the best version of yourself you can. And work on detaching more and more. Detachment is not like a flip you switch, it takes work and time to get good at. So keep working on it.
The above really helps to clarify, thank you! I do feel like I'm generally doing most of those things, so I'm on the right track. When I say 'connect with him', I'm doing so in ways that I don't feel are pressuring. For example, when he stayed at a friends house, I made him a favorite food item, or I send him an article I think he will enjoy...things that show I know him well, but not very intimate or love things. Hopefully that is a good thing? Or do you think I'm pressuring him even when he's not acting like I am?
If your H were simply a WAH and that was it, then yes I would say those are good subtle gestures. Similar to talk and touch charges. The problem is that he is after someone else. I know he said he never cheated and that it is just an EA. I am not buying that. He has met with her in person. I think we would be naive to assume that he is telling the truth. Especially since cheaters NEVER admit it even in the face of undeniable evidence.
So I would stop with the reconnection efforts for the time being. You are teaching him that you will be he backup plan in case OW decides to move on. That you are willing to tolerate him being with someone else and sit back and pathetically wait for him. Do you think that makes you look more or less attractive to him?
If your H were simply a WAH and that was it, then yes I would say those are good subtle gestures. Similar to talk and touch charges. The problem is that he is after someone else. I know he said he never cheated and that it is just an EA. I am not buying that. He has met with her in person. I think we would be naive to assume that he is telling the truth. Especially since cheaters NEVER admit it even in the face of undeniable evidence.
So I would stop with the reconnection efforts for the time being. You are teaching him that you will be he backup plan in case OW decides to move on. That you are willing to tolerate him being with someone else and sit back and pathetically wait for him. Do you think that makes you look more or less attractive to him?
I know for a fact they have seen each other, but are not able to on a regular basis due to distance. And he knows I know that too. And yes, I agree that I cannot believe what he tells me so I have evidence to back it up. I am doing talk charges exactly, but not too strong and not daily. And I also realize that in some ways it allows me to be his backup plan, as I truly believe the EA/PA will run its course and not last. My goal is to have the opportunity to reconcile. The doesn't mean I will take him back without some hard work on his part. But for my own growth and moving forward, I do feel I need to allow this opportunity to be there. I feel there will be plenty of time in the future to confront, deal with and disengage if that is what is to happen, so I don't want to do that right now. Plus, with the kids and my being a step-parent, as well as work related issues, I feel that keeping things on a positive note between us is important at this time. I am not intimate with him and I am not discussing R, and I am focusing on myself, I am setting boundaries where needed and if this is truly an MLC, he needs to go through what he is going through without pressure from me. At this point, I am just seeing how my gut feels each moment and trying to adjust my behavior for what feels like it's working or is working for myself and my own health.
It's confusing as my marriage program advises certain things and MLC forums advise certain things. I'm also reading the DB book. So, I'm taking in all of this information and then trying the things that feel right, with the focus on not causing more harm (if I can towards H) as well as putting my needs and my health and my growth first. For now, it feels right to me and I am calm, detached and feel a sense of peace and empowerment as I feel I am focusing on myself first and foremost. And my kids, that I still want in my life longterm.
All this advice is so helpful and keep it coming! I do really appreciate the different points of view and opinions!
I've said this before. I wish I could go out and get some side action, and have my W sit by and wait for me to be done. LOL Obviously, I would never do that, but it does amaze me how many people do not have a PA as a dealbreaker.
I've said this before. I wish I could go out and get some side action, and have my W sit by and wait for me to be done. LOL Obviously, I would never do that, but it does amaze me how many people do not have a PA as a dealbreaker.
Well it's amazing to some people how multiple EAs and sending nudies isn't a deal breaker. Everyone has their own boundaries.
And I also realize that in some ways it allows me to be his backup plan, as I truly believe the EA/PA will run its course and not last.
Just be prepared for the fact that it might not run its course, or as quickly as you like. My STBXW's is at 8 months, ask Ginger how long she would have been waiting. Google the Stockdale Paradox.
Yeah, I know. I won’t wait too long. Max in my head is a year, but it also may be time by summer. Taking it day by day. And the fact that H started a EA and then moved to PA is heartbreaking to me. Just because I’m standing doesn’t mean it’s ok.
Hi Elbereth,
I know this is an absolutely awful situation. However, you seem really strong, and you're handling this whole thing with dignity and thoughtfulness. To me, you seem fairly detached already and able to analyze the situation without letting your emotions get in the way. That is fantastic.
I had a few thoughts for you to take or leave:
When I say 'connect with him', I'm doing so in ways that I don't feel are pressuring. For example, when he stayed at a friends house, I made him a favorite food item, or I send him an article I think he will enjoy...things that show I know him well, but not very intimate or love things. Hopefully that is a good thing? Or do you think I'm pressuring him even when he's not acting like I am?
My take on this is that I'd probably cut most of this behavior out. It may not be major pressure, but you never really know how it is taken in the moment. I feel confident that he KNOWS the things you hope these actions to be communicating. You don't really need to keep telling him in different ways that you know him well, the opportunity for reconciliation exists, etc. You might put yourself in his shoes a bit and try to figure out how getting a favorite food item makes you feel, if you were him? I would imagine it might make him feel more guilty than "wow, my wife knows me so well." A lot of times these WSs (or MLCers) are terrible at handling emotions generally, so those feelings of guilt get shoved down and converted into making you out to be the bad guy. Cognitive dissonance is a big player here. In order to convince themselves that they're doing the right thing, they need to believe that a R with you will never work out.
Also, if you're the one always reaching out, then you never can see if he's making any effort on his own or not. I'd recommend not being the one to initiate any conversation but having a PMA when he does and you respond. You want to leave him wanting more, not annoyed at you. Sometimes that means not talking at all, if when you do reach out it makes him feel annoyed or guilty. If that is the case, he needs that time and space from you to start to recognize that you aren't the source of all his problems.
I'd also read up some on the pursuer/distancer dynamic. I see some similarities in our sitches (and recognize a fellow analyzer when I see one
) and once I cued into this, it was really, really interesting to observe.
I think Steve's advice about not helping nor hindering the D is good, but also totally agree you need to be sure you're protected. Sounds like you are set with your L but just remember that putting the D paperwork in place, if that is needed to ensure he doesn't drain all your accounts, won't stop a reconciliation if that comes down the road.
Finally, it sounds like you're already doing this, but you know yourself the best and your H the best. You need to do this in a way that feels right to you. As LH rightly notes, everyone has their own boundaries. You seem to know yourself really well and you're doing wonderfully with boundaries, GALing, and detachment. Keep it up and don't feel like you need to do any specific set of things (like automatically divorce him if you find proof it is a PA) because other people have that boundary in their own lives and relationships.
Hang in there. You've got this.
My take on this is that I'd probably cut most of this behavior out. It may not be major pressure, but you never really know how it is taken in the moment. I feel confident that he KNOWS the things you hope these actions to be communicating. You don't really need to keep telling him in different ways that you know him well, the opportunity for reconciliation exists, etc. You might put yourself in his shoes a bit and try to figure out how getting a favorite food item makes you feel, if you were him? I would imagine it might make him feel more guilty than "wow, my wife knows me so well." A lot of times these WSs (or MLCers) are terrible at handling emotions generally, so those feelings of guilt get shoved down and converted into making you out to be the bad guy. Cognitive dissonance is a big player here. In order to convince themselves that they're doing the right thing, they need to believe that a R with you will never work out.
Also, if you're the one always reaching out, then you never can see if he's making any effort on his own or not. I'd recommend not being the one to initiate any conversation but having a PMA when he does and you respond. You want to leave him wanting more, not annoyed at you. Sometimes that means not talking at all, if when you do reach out it makes him feel annoyed or guilty. If that is the case, he needs that time and space from you to start to recognize that you aren't the source of all his problems.
I don’t disagree with you and have been struggling with this area bit. So far my H has reacted well, thanks me, initiates communication and has been very easy to be around. We are most times in the same house, but he also stays at a friends house too. I give him space, make no demands, set boundaries where I’ve needed them. Yea, it is a bit of cake eating at the moment and I see that. But after a few very stressful years, I also need the calm and no drama so I can focus on my needs and my health. So it’s been working out at this time. The marriage program I’m doing advises doing gifts and talk charges. It says the PA will end and if you are not ‘there’ they just move on to another OW. So right now I’m trying to show I’m here, but also have said I won’t have a R with him until OW is out of picture. BD was just I months ago, so it’s still a bit new on where things might end up in regards to H wanting D. I do find that the less I do, the more he reaches out, so I realize there is pursuer/distancing behavior happening. I’ve been careful to allow distance when he initiates it. Hopefully I’m finding a good balance in my detachment level with the showing I’m still here and hoping to have opportunity to explore reconciliation?
I'd also read up some on the pursuer/distancer dynamic. I see some similarities in our sitches (and recognize a fellow analyzer when I see one
I think Steve's advice about not helping nor hindering the D is good, but also totally agree you need to be sure you're protected. Sounds like you are set with your L but just remember that putting the D paperwork in place, if that is needed to ensure he doesn't drain all your accounts, won't stop a reconciliation if that comes down the road.
Yep, I’m an analytical type! We can spot each other anywhere huh? Yes, spoke to L and of course he advises I initiate D but for now I’m working on protecting what I can and we’ve discussed how we can get down and dirty with discovery so that I can ensure I am able to get as much as I can of what is rightfully mine (and offset his MLC/OW spending/debts). So I know I’m taking a risk, but at this moment this is where my heart says to be.
I’ve spoken to his family and close friends and everyone thinks he’s crazy and no one understands. He also hasn’t made me out to be the bad person in this. In fact he called me “rock solid”. So I do feel that the way the past R with OW ended is part of what he’s trying to work out. He suffers from depression and I’ve been his rock, and he knows it, and so I think it’s been hard for him to push blame on me, at least outwardly to friends and family.
I have come to realize that at this moment, for my principals, for the kids, for the family, I need to try to do what I can to save the MR if possible. But I also see that my H has many flaws, that I feel he is damaged and he may never be the kind of man I need. I’ve accepted that as well and also feel that the moment I’m done, I’ll know it and can move forward on my own. As a step parent I committed to this R for H AND kids. I feel I’m the only sane parent they have and want to show them that integrity, principles, and morals matter, and that you just don’t drop people when the going gets tough like both this bio parents have.
Do you think I’m crazy? Ha! Sometimes I do as well!
The marriage program I’m doing advises doing gifts and talk charges. It says the PA will end and if you are not ‘there’ they just move on to another OW.
I do find that the less I do, the more he reaches out, so I realize there is pursuer/distancing behavior happening. I’ve been careful to allow distance when he initiates it.
So right now I’m trying to show I’m here, but also have said I won’t have a R with him until OW is out of picture.
Yes, often people tell themselves the OM/OW1 "stole" their partner, and so are shocked when they're quickly replaced with OM/OW2. Where the LBS is when the gap occurs is critical. It does sounds like you have some distancer/pursuer dynamics at play. Keen observations and a good boundary. Commendable.
In fact he called me “rock solid”. He suffers from depression and I’ve been his rock, and he knows it, and so I think it’s been hard for him to push blame on me, at least outwardly to friends and family.
You sound like a great partner.
I feel he is damaged and he may never be the kind of man I need. I’m the only sane parent they have and want to show them that integrity, principles, and morals matter, Do you think I’m crazy?
You sound like a great parent. You do not sound crazy at all.
No advice just now. Rock on!
I have come to realize that at this moment, for my principals, for the kids, for the family, I need to try to do what I can to save the MR if possible. But I also see that my H has many flaws, that I feel he is damaged and he may never be the kind of man I need. I’ve accepted that as well and also feel that the moment I’m done, I’ll know it and can move forward on my own. As a step parent I committed to this R for H AND kids. I feel I’m the only sane parent they have and want to show them that integrity, principles, and morals matter, and that you just don’t drop people when the going gets tough like both this bio parents have.
Do you think I’m crazy? Ha! Sometimes I do as well!
Nope, not at all! I agree 100% with everything you've said above. I feel with all my heart that when we had children we committed to being a family for them, even more so than when we were married. I'm with you completely on this.
You may want to check out the MLC board too. Hang in there!
Since my name was brought up, I thought maybe I would chime in. My ex cheated on me when I was pregnant with our first and only child. After going through IVF and a high risk pregnancy. He left me for her 6 months later. They will be married for 10 years on April fools day.
I am one of those situations where the affair
Never ended. My daughter is 13 now.
And yea, I tried to “connect”
By cooking his favorite meals and doing nice things for him.
All while he was deeply involved with this woman. Hoping I could nice him back to our family. Guess what. It didn’t work. Instead I lost most of my dignity doing nice things for a guy who was openly and actively cheating on me. And I knew he was with this woman! OMG, if I could do anything different it would be that. I still cringe at the thought
You cannot nice him back. He may accept your nice gestures while laughing behind your back with OW, but you won’t get him back. So save yourself some face and stop . Maybe some nice acts when there isn’t an active affair, but when he had 2 women vying for his attention, he is only going to bask in it, and no reconsider anything .
This, is not going to save your marriage. Your only chance for saving your marriage is showing your own value and self respect.
Stop doing nice things for him.
You want to know what it means to him? “I’ve got it made. I have my sexy girlfriend AND a doting wifey at home. I’m on top of the world!” You are really just showing him he can have cake and eat it too. He understands that you’re open to being plan B if his plan A doesn’t work out.
That’s the thing about reconciliation. There is a fine line between recon and the WAS just deciding that they will settle for the consolation prize of the spouse that has always been available to them.
My wayward came back to me. Twice. Each time it was for her own benefit, and not for any of the right reasons.
Thanks CWarrior! So far it seems to be working well, and if it stops working I’ll try something else. I’m grateful that things at home have been pleasant for my Step-son’s sake as losing his Senior Year experience due to the pandemic hasn’t been easy for him on top of everything happening with our M.
One day at a time, and lots of DBing, growth and GAL. That’s my current focus.
Hi Ginger1 and John2017,
Ginger1, I’m sorry that in your sitch it didn’t help, and I’m so sorry you went through that. I am in awe of his cruelty towards you.
I agree that “doing nice things” will NOT be what brings him back. I am DBing, while still detaching, and not being emotional towards him (which is also a 180). It’s those actions that I hope influence change in our dynamic. It doesn’t matter if I make him bread or do his laundry once in a while. Doing those things throughout our R sure didn’t stop him from having an EA. I don’t think those things really matter that much. Right now the OW lives in another state and I know they’ve met once at least but she isn’t here. I am. If I kick him out, it makes it harder on my step-son who lives with us half time and it’s harder to DB or have him see the changes in me if he’s not around. Also, there are impacts professionally for both of us, so another reason to remain as friendly as possible at this stage. So right now, he’s here and I’m doing the work on myself, GAL, doing 180s, detaching, giving him space as needed, etc. When and if the OW and H move in together, then I will ask him to leave. For all I know, their relationship could fall apart before they even get a chance to move in together. Right now I’m letting it run it’s course, while I’m doing what I’m doing.
My stance might change any day but this is where I am today. Don’t get me wrong, I won’t just accept him back if he ‘takes me as option 2’. What he’s done to our family, friends, and myself is awful. I’ll need to see some sincere hard work and changes to consider taking him back. At the very least, a chance at reconciliation is for a chance for closure as well if I do not want him back. But I am not at the point right now to just throw in the towel or I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing. Plus, we are in a pandemic. It’s safer to have him here due to that as well, as we already have two households involved (actually three as he stays with a guy friend sometimes too).
Anyway, I hope that helps to explain my sitch a bit better. Thank you so much for your opinions and I’m sorry your sitch’s didn’t end the way you had hoped. I am fully aware that mine may not either and I’ve accepted that as well.
Just be careful. I think you feel like you're in control and being strong "for the family". I did that too. It was not worth it and it almost cost me my job and reputation because of my x.
Reconciliation involves a lot. The WAS has to be put into a contract the LBS dictates, like: The wayward must take a STD test. The wayward must relinquish all passwords to all devices and accounts. The wayward must overtly break off all contact with the AP in the presence of the LBS. A whole litany of things that places the WAS under notice that they are always subject to audit by the LBS.
And my X did them. She did everything I asked, even the STD test. She called OM on the phone with me on speaker and told him she was done and to never contact her again. And she still relapsed and went back to being wayward, texting her F buddies, calling the OM, all kinds of bullst.
It is hard. Very very hard. I did everything I could AND MORE. Still failed because of her.
Don't worry so much about the step kids. They'll understand one day. And to be frank, if they are minors they're not even your responsibility unless you adopted them
But look, the kids EO understand. My stepson still calls me Dad and wants to call me on the phone 3 years after the D. He understands what happened and he figured out it was his mother's fault, and doesn't blame me for anything.
Kids can surprise you with their resilience and intelligence.
If I kick him out, it makes it harder on my step-son who lives with us half time and it’s harder to DB or have him see the changes in me if he’s not around.
The changes are for you, if you’re doing them for him they won’t stick nor will he believe them anyway.
I come to the board to share what I really wish I would hve done differently and why , and what I feel I have done right and why. And also what like is like now the muck is over.
I’m sorry you find yourself here and I know where you are right now, hearing anything that sounds like “not trying to save my family” won’t be heard or understood” DB is awfully counterintuitive. And really, the only way to have a chance at saving your family, is to save yourself, and then what’s meant to happen will. Either the WAS decides to change for the better themselves, or they don’t. Or you end up reconciling with the same old person who did you dirty in the first place, and will likely do you dirty again .
Your heart is in the right place like many of who came here who thought doing anything to save our families like you at with a marriage saving program that seems to tell you if you don’t treat your
Cheating spouse better than their affair partner you will lose him. I tried it, I still lost him. And some of my self respect along the way even if I told myself it was “for the family”
I don’t tell anyone to move out anymore. Because if you are dead set staying on the same roof , then you are. And I didn’t tell you to kick him out. I told you that might want to stop treating him like a husband when he is having an active affair. He can do his own laundry and feed himself while he is engaging in an extra marital affair. He is getting the best of both worlds right now. Why would he even consider stopping the affair if he could have his cake and eat it to? He has zero motivation for that.
But I know you will do what you will do. And I am very sorry you find yourself here and I wish you well.
Thank you. You have given me a lot to think about. I appreciate it.
If I’m not supposed to do nice things for him but we are living under the same roof, could you better describe to me how I should act towards him in your opinion? Are you saying I should not engage unless he speaks to me first, act distant and detached but friendly, tell him he cannot eat any of the food prepared in the house, etc?
If he’s not living with me, then it’s more cut and dry. But in living under the same roof I’m not as clear on what you all feel is the right behavior towards H?
As for my step son, I did not adopt and I do not have any legal requirements, but I am still their parent by choice.
If I kick him out, it makes it harder on my step-son who lives with us half time and it’s harder to DB or have him see the changes in me if he’s not around.
The changes are for you, if you’re doing them for him they won’t stick nor will he believe them anyway.
Yes, I understand. I am doing them for me as I want to be the best me as well as take what I’ve learned into my future with or without him. I guess I do see that I am also wanting him to see the changes, which shouldn’t matter huh?
They 'shouldn't' matter, but you might still want them to, and that's ok. Feelings follow actions. Just keep focusing on your goals - physical, mental, spiritual and you will want it to matter less and less.
I think it's important to be honest to ourselves what our true motives, feelings, thoughts are. We can't adjust our sails if we don't acknowledge where they are.
Elbereth, you're self-aware to acknowledge you want them to see your changes. Good stuff. Here's why I think it's a good idea to primarily choose goals that are for you, where him seeing them doesn't matter. First, if the motivation to "win them back" is driving you, what happens when that's gone--i.e., you reconcile and get comfortable or your hope wanes? Second, if this behavior is "for them" you are likely to slowly build resentment over how much you do "for them". Third, if you ultimately fail to reconcile, a change "for you" prepares you to move forward whereas a change "for them" sets you back to square one.
Hi E,
A few more thoughts for you to take or leave.
I know earlier you said you’d received the books and were reading them— what else did you get besides DB? If you haven’t read her affair book Healing from Infidelity, I definitely recommend you read that one as well. There is a chapter specifically aimed at how to handle a spouse who is in an active affair and still living in the home. (Spoiler— she says people will tell you he’s cake eating and you’re a doormat and that you shouldn’t listen to them. You’re simply fighting for your marriage in the smartest way possible.)
It seems on this board (newcomers in particular— MLC much less so) the majority of the posters recommend the Last Resort Technique, or even more frequently the Last Last Resort Technique (I think that is what it is called— can’t remember exactly!
) I think that is because it is felt that by time most posters get here, their sitches are extreme enough that the LRT is really the only appropriate route; that most of DBing is for people in much less dire situations.
However, I really think it has more to do with the attitude and ability of the LBS, that for most people, IHS is incredibly difficult, and it is very hard to detach and GAL while living with a spouse actively carrying on an affair. I do think that the long-distance nature of your H’s affair makes it easier to handle less emotionally than if she lived in your town. Every sitch is different and every poster is different in what they can handle.
I think it is important to spend time not just on thinking about how to interact (or not) with your H, but really dig into your own values and try to understand where your own boundaries lie. These will not be the same as those of other posters. Everyone needs to be true to their own value system, what matters most to them, what they are willing to tolerate, what they aren’t. That is OKAY. And know that every single poster here is posting out of goodwill and a sincere desire to support other LBSs through a very difficult time. I do believe that some folks have a difficult time separating their sitches and experiences from others; also some folks tend to assume everyone has (or should have) the same boundaries as they do. That’s okay, from my perspective. The LBS receiving advice just needs to be able to also understand where it is coming from, and apply it accordingly.
The other thing to think about, in addition to really understanding your own values and boundaries, is your H and whether or not this is a M worth saving, in the end. You do read about a lot of WSs on this board who seem to be full-on narcissists and are perhaps pathological. While I think that anyone who has an A obviously has some narcissistic tendencies and major entitlement issues, some people are probably worth standing for and some, especially the hard-core narcissists or emotional abusers, are probably not partner material and you’re better off without them. So once you feel you have a good understanding of where you are and what you are willing to accept, also think about whether or not you even want an M2.0 with this person, should it get there.
From what I have read of your situation and your attitude, I think you’re a good candidate to follow the IHS path, if that is what you choose. (Another point I want to make — you can’t force any of this. Everyone finds their own path towards acceptance/detachment differently. Every person I’ve followed here who has found that place has said they got to it honestly and even though they wish they had gotten there sooner, they know they couldn’t have done it without walking the path they walked. So don’t pressure yourself into doing something that you’re not ready for.)
I recommend looking up Wayfarer’s threads and reading through them. She was in a very similar situation to you, though her H’s AP was local. She was also a person from his past and WF was particularly motivated to stand because of her teenage step-daughter, whose bio mom is a wreck. She’s now six months or so into piecing and her H never left the house. She’s an absolute master DBer, IMO.
Finally, you’d asked for specific advice on how to behave with your H. I agree with Ginger— stop doing the wifely things. I stopped doing all those things too. We ate together but I didn’t go out of my way to do anything especially nice for him. It was really freeing. I stopped caring about his little likes or dislikes and just cooked what I wanted, planned things I wanted to do. I focused on my kids and myself. I was nice to him but I didn’t initiate interactions— if he texted me, I’d text him back, but I never initiated unless it was a kid thing. I noticed that he responded very positively to my own positivity, so if he did or said something nice, I’d be nice back, but again I worked hard not to be the first to engage. I stopped hanging out in same room as him after the kids went to bed and took a bath or read on my own, or went out with friends.
Sometimes it was super hard, especially when he was traveling and I knew he was in AP’s city, but I did my best to just LET GO of any illusion of control I might have had. I could control me, and that is it. This piece was huge for me and continues to be— I think it is something I will probably need to continue to work on for the rest of my life. The one thing I regret now is having so many R talks with him. I heard a lot of things I wish now that I could unhear.
Anyway— the more work you do on yourself, the better, regardless of where your H lives or not. You can’t control him or what he thinks. I personally think doing those nice little things for him is trying to get him to see you in a certain way— an attempt to subtly control his feelings— and it is futile. I’d take a good hard look at everything you’re doing and be sure it is all focused on YOU, and nothing is focused on trying to control him.
Best, May
OMG May, I am binge-reading (laughing, crying, cringing, power-fisting, crying, laughing, cheering, etc) ALL through Wayfarer's sitch. Thank you for suggesting that one. I see myself in her so much and in her situation...and I'm still reading my way through it...
I'll respond more later, but didn't want you to think I went dark.
PS. I'm buying that seduction book. lol
Elbereth,
What is the story on both of your 1st marriages? Length of time for both? Were you both D'd when you met? Any history of cheating in either of them?
OMG May, I am binge-reading (laughing, crying, cringing, power-fisting, crying, laughing, cheering, etc) ALL through Wayfarer's sitch. Thank you for suggesting that one. I see myself in her so much and in her situation...and I'm still reading my way through it...
LOL she is the best. Don't judge me when you get to the parts of me hiding out on her thread because I didn't want to post on my own.
Another couple of people who had/have somewhat similar situations-- Pommy99, also had a H with a long-distance EA. He left and then returned. She dropped off the board this summer while working through reconciliation (or not, it wasn't super clear what she wanted to do when she stopped posting) but I'm sure you will be able to relate. Sage4 (over on MLC)'s H had a long-distance EA too. They're separated now and talking D. Sage is AMAZING too. There are so many fabulous women on this board, honestly! You are in good company
xx M
Hi May,
Finally catching up here but still off reading WF sitch. Wow, that woman is one strong woman!
I know earlier you said you’d received the books and were reading them— what else did you get besides DB? If you haven’t read her affair book Healing from Infidelity, I definitely recommend you read that one as well. There is a chapter specifically aimed at how to handle a spouse who is in an active affair and still living in the home. (Spoiler— she says people will tell you he’s cake eating and you’re a doormat and that you shouldn’t listen to them. You’re simply fighting for your marriage in the smartest way possible.)
I did receive both DB/DR books, and halfway through DB then poked into DR when it was suggested I should refer to that one. I'm also reading a couple of boundary books (as I think I was very poor at handling my boundaries and got resentful when they didn't hold), that 'live in the Now' book you always hear Oprah talking about, some B Browne books, and a book on infidelity recovery. I'm kinda all over the place... ha! The DR book does include some of what you mentioned, but I will have to order her affair book as well...
It seems on this board (newcomers in particular— MLC much less so) the majority of the posters recommend the Last Resort Technique, or even more frequently the Last Last Resort Technique (I think that is what it is called— can’t remember exactly!
) I think that is because it is felt that by time most posters get here, their sitches are extreme enough that the LRT is really the only appropriate route; that most of DBing is for people in much less dire situations.
However, I really think it has more to do with the attitude and ability of the LBS, that for most people, IHS is incredibly difficult, and it is very hard to detach and GAL while living with a spouse actively carrying on an affair. I do think that the long-distance nature of your H’s affair makes it easier to handle less emotionally than if she lived in your town. Every sitch is different and every poster is different in what they can handle.
Yeah, when H first said he wanted a D, I kicked him out and was so confused that he was in a rush to leave. I felt I was doing it because my family said I should, but I was very confused and scared and once it happened, it just felt off. I see now that it actually pushed him to go meet up with his OW. No wonder he was in a hurry to leave...it was like I had given him permission in his mind. But after learning more about MLC and affairs, I learned so much and felt so differently than I would have thought I would about the affair. In the past I've always said I would never tolerate it and the guy would be so out of there. But when it happens to you, it's really different, as life is not that cut and dry. And I don't think he's been in his right mind the last few years. If it's really MLC, then maybe he's confused and lost. OW is in a different state right now, but I know they are trying to get her here within 'a year' as I was told by a friend of H. I also saw she posted a question about my city on social (yes, I do stalk on occasion and know I shouldn't). So, I'm guessing it's still in the works as of a couple of days ago. But, yeah, if she gets here, I suspect I'd feel totally different and not sure I could be in the same house while he's sleeping with her elsewhere at the same time. I do have the luxury of some time with OW being married and having it be more complicated for them to figure out. Not sure if that is good because I also worry that not having access to each other will drag it out as well. I read that EA are almost more difficult to get over.
I think it is important to spend time not just on thinking about how to interact (or not) with your H, but really dig into your own values and try to understand where your own boundaries lie. These will not be the same as those of other posters. Everyone needs to be true to their own value system, what matters most to them, what they are willing to tolerate, what they aren’t. That is OKAY.
I'm not as good at expressing myself like Wayfarer, but in many ways, I am so like her when it comes to my principles and values. I married this man and his kids for better and for worse. It's not in my nature to just walk away and give up. Not when I've committed to it and have been confused as h3ll what happened to us the last few years. For myself as well, I have to feel I did what I could to walk away and move forward. That is NOT saying I can't live without him, I know I can. This isn't my first rodeo. But I want to know I tried and learn what I can from the experience. Most people I know think I'm crazy. It's so hard when I feel like I have to defend my decisions to everyone in my life. Not one of them have been in my shoes. Not one has had someone in MLC to understand how insane it is. I don't feel like this guy is my H. Like WF said, he's a really poor photocopy of poor photocopy. I need to know if he will every be the man I need in M2.0. Because I agree, if we make it to that and do the work, it will be so much better. But if we don't, I will be able to move on with a clear conscious and heart.
(Another point I want to make — you can’t force any of this. Everyone finds their own path towards acceptance/detachment differently. Every person I’ve followed here who has found that place has said they got to it honestly and even though they wish they had gotten there sooner, they know they couldn’t have done it without walking the path they walked. So don’t pressure yourself into doing something that you’re not ready for.)
Thank you so much for explaining more how to be detached. And reading WF's story also helps. I do better with directions when I'm shown. lol I do see now that I've allowed more engagement than necessary. I have stepped back and he's reached out, so I know I just need to do more of that and less of the leaning in towards him. Like right now, he's out of town doing some skiing. I suspect with the OW. I saw him on a work zoom and he didn't have his ring on and he's been wearing his ring almost this entire time. He took it off at first, but then put it on. I did the same and have been wearing mine. So that is why I think he's with her. I didn't reach out to him at all the last couple of days and today he asked me for something he could have gotten from someone else. So I smiled thinking at least he's thinking of me while he is with her.
Yeah, I'll still be cooking and doing some laundry, but I will not buy his treats and other more personal things. Step back more...as I see now I wasn't doing it enough. Another thing that is hard is this week is also his birthday week...and I'm not sure if I should send him a message on the day of his bday. We are right now planning to celebrate both his and S20's next week at home. My bday was near the holidays and even though he was staying at his friends house during that time, he insisted on making me dinner and spending it as a family. When I said I wanted to do that same at first he harshly said no. Then I said okay. Then he softened and suggested the plan for next week. So now that he is with OW (and probably why he first responded harshly), I'm sort of confused on the best approach now? Just ignore it until he's back?
Some other details, when he first moved out and after I saw that he drained a shared account and I asked him where the money went, he said he was spending it on AirBnBs for February and the summer. So far, I'm not sure if this is the one for February or if he is moving out when he gets back from his trip. So if I act super detached, if that would give him more justification to move out. So confusing trying to read their minds and figure out the best way to be.
For me, what I have been doing has been working...because my health hasn't been good and I had so much anxiety and stress the last few years I thought I was having a heart attack. So having my emotions more steady and not having any negativity has been really good. It doesn't mean I am not hurting, but it has helped me to stay sane to not feel like I'm pushing myself to be colder or warmer than I feel comfortable with. That being said, I am in a better state of mind and physical health to start DBing proper while still taking care of myself and setting boundaries. So far he's been pretty easy going. But I have been careful to realize that the ugly side will show itself...so I'm prepared a bit for that as well when it comes.
I have to say though that GAL is so hard in this pandemic. And I have very few friends that are local. I do get out with my BFF and I have been doing lots of long walks and baths, and other things for myself. But I would love to get all dolled up and be all mysterious and out there doing stuff, but everything is closed up pretty much. I can't even go to a bar by myself! I may ask a family member if I can spend time in their second home, just to have somewhere else to be. I'm very much a homebody and he knows it, and it irritated him. I do want to do more things and I feel I neglected myself over the last few years, so that has been hard as it's not like I can take the classes I'd like right now or do some of the things I'd like. But for being a homebody, I think I am comfortable in my own skin...I can be alone with myself and be fine. I think he resented that so much because he is not as comfortable in his own skin. He's obviously been fighting some inner things. I faced a lot of my inner issue when I was D the last time...so I'm ahead there, even if I know I still have a lot to work on for myself.
What is the story on both of your 1st marriages? Length of time for both? Were you both D'd when you met? Any history of cheating in either of them?
I married too young in my early 20s, so was married 18yrs. Did 2yrs MC and moved on with a clear conscious. Nothing bad happened there, just married to young and grew to be different people. H's first marriage was 9 years. His W cheated on him. She is also a seriously ill narcissist. He was also cheated on in his next relationship, after a year and a half of dating and then continued to 'date her' while it was an open relationship. He also set his kids aside for this one as she didn't like kids. When I met him he'd been single for a bit, and had regrets about putting his kids aside and immediately mentioned them on first date. Made it clear that they were a priority. He also talked about how terrible he felt after that last relationship, how terrible he felt knowing she was going out with her other guys, sharing the same bed they were having sex in, etc. I think it really screwed him up a bit for a while. He even attempted suicide because of it. It really seemed that he had come through his difficult period and had done a lot of growth when we met. I never in a million years would have thought he'd cheat on me after how devastating it had been for him.
We had a lot of great years. Of course being a step mom has been hard, especially with a crazy XW. He's always been a bit controlling and not as strong of a person as I am. When I read about MLC, I look back on the last few years and it just clicks. The aging, the body not handling things, the stresses of work and home life, the crazy XW, the fixer upper home, etc. He's running from it all. But he created a lot of it. This is his life too. I'm the third wheel in his family (which I took on as my own even when I didn't get to have much choices in how things go with the kids and all). But I do feel like he's the love of my life. Being in his arms feels like home. Even when he is driving me crazy, I still love him. Our relationship was fast and rushed. We moved in together very quickly and under a lot of craziness...and made it. His family feels I saved him. But he also saved me as I never had known what love was until I met him. Even if we don't make it, I'm grateful that I got to feel that at least once in my life. And these boys? Well, I love them too, a lot, and they are the only kids I will ever have as I didn't have any bio kids of my own. I'm not ready to give up on them and they deserve better. Hell, their bio-parents are used to giving up and I don't want my boys growing up thinking that's how you roll with relationships and commitments.
LOL she is the best. Don't judge me when you get to the parts of me hiding out on her thread because I didn't want to post on my own. wink
I'd NEVER do that, and I've not read your sitch yet (its next), but I can tell you now that you are welcome to hide out on my thread any time you want!
I'm so grateful for this forum. Really, thank you to all of your for advice and your support.
They 'shouldn't' matter, but you might still want them to, and that's ok. Feelings follow actions. Just keep focusing on your goals - physical, mental, spiritual and you will want it to matter less and less.
I think it's important to be honest to ourselves what our true motives, feelings, thoughts are. We can't adjust our sails if we don't acknowledge where they are.
Elbereth, you're self-aware to acknowledge you want them to see your changes. Good stuff. Here's why I think it's a good idea to primarily choose goals that are for you, where him seeing them doesn't matter. First, if the motivation to "win them back" is driving you, what happens when that's gone--i.e., you reconcile and get comfortable or your hope wanes? Second, if this behavior is "for them" you are likely to slowly build resentment over how much you do "for them". Third, if you ultimately fail to reconcile, a change "for you" prepares you to move forward whereas a change "for them" sets you back to square one.
Yea, I am focused on only doing things that I feel are good for ME...as I agree that they have to be for ME to stick. But I also want him to notice! I can't help it. As I am standing! And DBing, and doing 180s etc. But I'm not doing anything that would only be for him and not myself. For example, he wants me to be more of a runner. I'm not doing that. If I do, I do it enough for cardio health for doing activities I enjoy, but I hate running. Sure, he'd love it if I became a runner. I tried it and I know I hate it. Ha!
So anyway, thanks for the reminders and yes, I will be sure to keep myself and my needs front and center.
Lastly, I keep always seeing a flashing envelope but when I click on it it brings me to a page and says no messages. What am I missing? ha
hi Elbereth,
I want to push you gently on something. A couple of baby 2x4s.
I do have the luxury of some time with OW being married and having it be more complicated for them to figure out. Not sure if that is good because I also worry that not having access to each other will drag it out as well. I read that EA are almost more difficult to get over.
Oh, I did this too. I read every book and all the reasons why his A was better or worse, how the distance played in to the length of the limerence phase, EA vs PA, blah blah blah.
Here's the thing. You have zero control over this. Zero. It truly does no good to spend any of your precious time and energy on how he feels about OW now or tomorrow or in a year. Try to spend as little time possible thinking about that and redirect that energy back into you and that which you can control.
And also, I feel that you (like me) might go to the literature and use it as a way to semi-detach, take yourself emotionally out of the game so that you can be more of an observer. But don't forget that what he is doing is NOT OKAY, even if you can label it. He may be a flawed human being who has made terrible mistakes but is worthy of forgiveness... but he is also a liar and a cheater who doesn't share your same values around marriage and family. Don't underestimate the righteous anger and the grief that might be building up inside of you with nowhere to go. I did that, and I don't recommend it.
Yea, I am focused on only doing things that I feel are good for ME...as I agree that they have to be for ME to stick. But I also want him to notice! I can't help it. As I am standing!
OK, you can admit you want him to notice. That's a good step! But try try try to stop. WSs can sniff that out immediately and it won't work. You really truly to your bones have to not care whether he notices or not. Otherwise, it smacks of the pick-me dance. And you don't want to play that game. It's rigged and you cannot win. You have to start playing your own game, not his.
I think you're doing great though, keep shoveling all your energy into you and the kids. Ruthlessly edit your behaviors and decide if it could be perceived as pursuing-- and if it is, cut it out. For his birthday-- is he going to be on a skiing vacation presumably with OW? If so I would probably not initiate any conversation. If he reaches out first on the day of, you might respond with whatever plus oh and happy birthday! and then leave it at that. You're busy and important.
Elbereth, thanks for the background.
So let me see if I get your H's history straight......
In both his marriage and his R after marriage he was an innocent victim. XW was a narcissist and horrible. R after D was a cheater that talked him into an open relationship. Then somehow through all of that he ends up cheating on you.
I find it hard to believe that he was innocent in the breakup of his marriage and in landing himself in the open R afterward. You make LOTS of excuses for him, do you realize that you do that? Look at how you rationalize his MLC: The aging, the body not handling things, the stresses of work and home life, the crazy XW, the fixer upper home, etc. He's running from it all. Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. He's not the first one to go through all of that, and in fact others have gone through worse. And yet didn't cheat on their wife Stop making excuses for him. You need HIM to own his stuff just like YOU own your stuff. I know you added that he created a lot of the above, and that's a good start. Remember, life is not what someone goes through, it is how they react to it. Do not make excuses for him, it isn't healthy.
I've told the story of our friends, Larry and Melissa (names changed to protect the innocent and the guilty). Larry had been cheated on in his first marriage. Melissa had been cheated on and abused by her first husband. They got married, seemed happy, were our dear friends. They had two kids whom we adored.
About 10 years in, Melissa cheated on Larry. Didn't tell him that was going on, but just said she wanted a D. There were some extenuating circumstances in their sitch that are not relevant for this discussion, but Larry eventually, at our behest (since Melissa was acting so weird) hired a PI and found out she was, and had been for months, having a PA with a coworker. And that they now were planning on leaving their spouses and marrying (last I heard she still was married to the AP). Larry found out, 12 years after believing everything Melissa said about her first marriage, that SHE had abused her first husband and had cheated on him, not the other way around. He found this out from Melissa's mother whom she claimed she was estranged from so that Larry had never met her or Melissa's father. Likely to hide the truth. (They lived several states away.)
Even if he is telling the truth, it may not be the whole truth. Remember, there are 3 sides to every story: Yours, Mine and The Truth.
Yes, you both have given me some small 2x4s and I needed that!
Here's the thing. You have zero control over this. Zero. It truly does no good to spend any of your precious time and energy on how he feels about OW now or tomorrow or in a year. Try to spend as little time possible thinking about that and redirect that energy back into you and that which you can control.
And also, I feel that you (like me) might go to the literature and use it as a way to semi-detach, take yourself emotionally out of the game so that you can be more of an observer. But don't forget that what he is doing is NOT OKAY, even if you can label it. He may be a flawed human being who has made terrible mistakes but is worthy of forgiveness... but he is also a liar and a cheater who doesn't share your same values around marriage and family. Don't underestimate the righteous anger and the grief that might be building up inside of you with nowhere to go. I did that, and I don't recommend it.
I do realize I have no control over this, but I do see how I am still hanging on to the idea of him noticing and making changes as a result. I DO need to let that go. And part of me has, but not all of me. That is something I have to work more on. I DO need to be where it doesn't really matter one way or another, that I can accept both endings fully. I logically feel that I can, but I also need to feel it and reflect it in my actions. Thanks for that. And, yes, I have concerns about detaching now and how the anger and grief that is building up inside will be let out. But I'm resolved that it will come later, if at all in our process. If it doesn't, I will have to find a way to work through it on my own. Right now, after not being well and being so stressed, I need to put those things on the back burner and just try to be the best me each day and do things that help me to feel good and positive. I need that for my own sanity and health at this moment. And I know, I do need to stop looking at the OW social...
In both his marriage and his R after marriage he was an innocent victim. XW was a narcissist and horrible. R after D was a cheater that talked him into an open relationship. Then somehow through all of that he ends up cheating on you.
I find it hard to believe that he was innocent in the breakup of his marriage and in landing himself in the open R afterward. You make LOTS of excuses for him, do you realize that you do that? Look at how you rationalize his MLC: The aging, the body not handling things, the stresses of work and home life, the crazy XW, the fixer upper home, etc. He's running from it all. Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. He's not the first one to go through all of that, and in fact others have gone through worse. And yet didn't cheat on their wife Stop making excuses for him. You need HIM to own his stuff just like YOU own your stuff. I know you added that he created a lot of the above, and that's a good start. Remember, life is not what someone goes through, it is how they react to it. Do not make excuses for him, it isn't healthy.
Just because I described his situations in limited detail, does not mean I see him as an innocent victim. I know he contributed to problems in his past M. I've had many a conversation with him and his family to have some idea of that dynamic. My H has his personality traits that were not helpful, but his XW is crazy and wasn't a good person as well. And I've witnessed her behaviors first hand. You can't reason with crazy. I have discussed her AP with her directly as she did have AP in her life on and off the last 10 years (and exposed to the boys). So it did happen. As for his other R, I know less about her, but I do know that what she did was cruel, and I also recognize that he is doing something very similar to me now. Don't think I don't know that he is a liar, cheater, selfish, etc. But I do recognize that if this is a MLC, he may be not himself or able to handle what he is feeling. Sure, he may not snap out of it and may be this jerk forever (if so, the OW can have him). But for now I am standing. You are right, difficult things happen to people and how you handle them is important. But he is not the strongest person. I know this about him. So his ammo is to run, avoid, shutdown. But most times he realizes that doesn't get him anywhere. I am hoping he faces his issues and grows from this experience. I am not making excuses for him by pointing out what he is running from. I live it every day. In fact, our lives were so stressful the last few years I became ill...and I'm a strong person. I am not giving it forever. I have in my head I'd give it a year. Maybe less if I decide I'm done sooner. He may very well have to D me and go live with OW before he realizes what his life with me was. I'm not wearing any rose-colored glasses about his faults and or the possible outcomes.
So, yes, feeling he is in MLC does make me to feel differently about his affair. I'm standing based on what I feel in this scenario as it is. Right now this is where I am at based on what I know/feel right now. He's not going to own his part in this moment, but I am owning mine...and much of my self-care is working on my side of the problems in our relationship and working to make myself the best version of me that I can be so that I am prepared for what happens next...with him or with someone else. But if every woman dumped her MLC spouse when he had an AP, there would be no busted Ds. So I refuse to feel bad about standing at this moment and seeing it as part of the MLC process. Sure, I may be wrong with him being in MLC, or he may not snap out of it, but either way I am doing what I feel is the right thing for myself and my situation at the moment.
Thank you both for the 2x4s, and keep them coming. I need to hear all sides . It does help me a lot and I appreciate it!
Elbereth, I was just pointing out to you that you were making excuses for him. You don't have to justify your waiting for him to me! That is completely up to you.
As far as MLCs, the problem is that sometimes other things get incorrectly categorized as MLCs. For instance, this is who the person really was all along and they were living a lie. Or sometimes it isn't a MLC as much as it is a change in personality/worldview/etc. We call it is "crisis" but many times the person going through it sees it as an epiphany. That they've never been happy and are now doing things to that make them happy. We like to try to diagnose it as a MLC because if we can diagnose, we think it can be healed.
I think in general you are approaching things pretty well, but you do need to make some tweaks. One being not to excuse his bad behavior, and two not trying to nice him back by being super-wife.
Hang in there!
Yes, you both have given me some small 2x4s and I needed that!
Here's the thing. You have zero control over this. Zero. It truly does no good to spend any of your precious time and energy on how he feels about OW now or tomorrow or in a year. Try to spend as little time possible thinking about that and redirect that energy back into you and that which you can control.
And also, I feel that you (like me) might go to the literature and use it as a way to semi-detach, take yourself emotionally out of the game so that you can be more of an observer. But don't forget that what he is doing is NOT OKAY, even if you can label it. He may be a flawed human being who has made terrible mistakes but is worthy of forgiveness... but he is also a liar and a cheater who doesn't share your same values around marriage and family. Don't underestimate the righteous anger and the grief that might be building up inside of you with nowhere to go. I did that, and I don't recommend it.
I do realize I have no control over this, but I do see how I am still hanging on to the idea of him noticing and making changes as a result. I DO need to let that go. And part of me has, but not all of me. That is something I have to work more on. I DO need to be where it doesn't really matter one way or another, that I can accept both endings fully. I logically feel that I can, but I also need to feel it and reflect it in my actions. Thanks for that. And, yes, I have concerns about detaching now and how the anger and grief that is building up inside will be let out. But I'm resolved that it will come later, if at all in our process. If it doesn't, I will have to find a way to work through it on my own. Right now, after not being well and being so stressed, I need to put those things on the back burner and just try to be the best me each day and do things that help me to feel good and positive. I need that for my own sanity and health at this moment. And I know, I do need to stop looking at the OW social...
All of this takes time. You're doing really well, I think. You see what is happening and are handling it the best way that you can. I didn't say this meaning that you needed to make changes today by any stretch, but just to make sure you were aware. In my own experience and from others here, it seems like detachment/acceptance/release of that-which-you-cannot-control is a slow and personal process. You can fake it til you make it, but that still doesn't change the fact that you can't force it. So keep working on that.
One thing I think that has set Wayfarer apart is that I think she totally dropped the rope early on. Her expectation was that he was going to walk and she was ok with that. You see as she gets farther along in her sitch that it is when he starts to lean in that she gets freaked out. From all the reading of various sitches on this site, I think that authentic dropping of the rope, letting go and letting God as she says, is the real key. Very difficult to do when you're living with the person which is part of the reason I think the CW on the board is to kick them out, but it is not impossible. I always figured it might be the harder path but one I was willing to walk if it protected my children from pain in any way. I had/have to constantly remind myself of that decision, which I'd make again in a heartbeat. I don't regret it at all.
In terms of dealing with your own pain and healing, that all makes sense and it sounds like you have a good handle on it. Compartmentalization can be a sanity-saver especially for those of us whose WSs are still in the house. It is just that I have had to deal recently with all the anger and grief I pushed down and it was really difficult. If you can find a way to express it in a healthy way now, even just bits of it, it may be beneficial to you.
Steve is another one whose S never moved out and he reconciled, so I think he's a good person to have on your thread and a great example of how to DB while in the same house, just like Wayfarer. There aren't many of us in that boat. (Though as Steve will be quick to remind you, his wife only had an EA, not a PA, or he'd have walked...
haha said with love, Steve!!)
You're doing great. Keep it up. Self care, detach, GAL. Remove your focus from him and place it squarely on yourself and the boys. Lather, rinse, repeat... as they say, a marathon not a sprint.
Steve and May, thank you. Really. I mean it. Lots for me to think about and I NEED to hear your guidance (along with all the other newbies out here). I'm a very blunt person, so don't take my blunt responses as I'm angry or defensive.
I fully agree that I can't make excuses for him and I do expect him to own what he's done at some point, especially if there is any chance at a reconciliation. And honestly, I lean towards the feeling that things will not get to that level more than I am hopeful they will. I'm realistic, but hopeful. And I know I will make it regardless.
I do have to let go. In fact, it's been my struggle the last week or so...really getting myself there in my heart. The fact that I think he is off spending the week with his OW, while his son is here (during our week), during a pandemic, really gets to me. It's deplorable. I've had to set only two boundaries so far. First that he take off her ring around me (that I saw him wearing on his pinky when he started to stay at the house again), and the other that if he went to see her, I'd not stop him, but he needs to quarantine and get tested to not expose the family to Covid. As I know he is planning to celebrate his and S20 birthday next week, it certainly doesn't appear he will do that. Of course, I don't have hard-core proof he is with OW. But in my gut I think he is.
We did have a R talk last week where he asked again about selling the house and getting a D. I told him I wanted to work on things. It went calmly, and ended on a friendly note (although not resolved), but since then I have acted a bit more detached and I think I will do my best to drop the rope completely now. Like WF, I think he thinks we can just be friends, but I can't imagine being friends with my XH who cheated on me. So I DO need to fully let go. It will be hard, but I know it's the right thing to do. I can't put the full focus on myself until I do. That is clear.
My lawyer finally got back to me with a post-nuptial agreement for some funds that he took out of our joint savings account to use for his own purposes. I will also need to present that next week and hope he is willing to sign it, but if not, then things will probably get a bit messy in the D process. I did make the suggestion weeks ago and then my lawyer went dark, so now I'm not exactly sure how to bring it up again. Especially as I did find evidence that he started an online D questionnaire, so there is a part of me just waiting for him to actually serve me, making my agreement pointless in the short term. He actually is one of those 'this can be an amicable D we can do online, and we can be friends!' types. Right. I don't think so.
As for sons, it's very hard to figure out how they really feel about all of this. I asked to be part of the conversation when he told them, but he ended up doing it on his own, although I did get to have a second family convo with them with him. At that point it was more about how I am still committed to them and such, and not why he is doing what he is doing. I believe he told them he just needs to be happy, but I really don't know what he said to them. But boys this age barely want to talk, and definitely do not want to talk to a female about relationships. I've gently asked and offered myself to talk, but they get all fidgety and don't want to talk and say they are 'cool with whatever we both need or want'. Sometimes I wish I had girls. Boys are harder I think. ha! I am grateful that they do love me, will still stay here with me even if he isn't here, and all of that. I just worry about how they will view relationships...its already so different for kids now then it was for myself at that age.
Anyway, I guess I'm just journalling and rambling now. Thanks for listening.
I've had to set only two boundaries so far. First that he take off her ring around me (that I saw him wearing on his pinky when he started to stay at the house again), and the other that if he went to see her, I'd not stop him, but he needs to quarantine and get tested to not expose the family to Covid. As I know he is planning to celebrate his and S20 birthday next week, it certainly doesn't appear he will do that. Of course, I don't have hard-core proof he is with OW. But in my gut I think he is.
Ugh, he's wearing her ring? I'm so sorry. That's gross. For some reason when I read this before I hadn't caught that.
But more importantly... if the testing/quarantine is a real boundary for you, how will you enforce that? Just not go? Not let him back in the house? Leave yourself? Remember that boundaries are about protecting you, not about controlling him.
May,
I don't know. It certainly makes things complicated, and with no proof he saw her what can I do? My MC said I could get a restraining order to protect myself, but with no proof? Seems that would stress me out even more and stress my son out. I haven't figured out what to do yet to enforce that one. How do you stop someone from coming into the home they own, with the child here that I have no legal rights to, and where all the alarms, keypads, etc are under their accounts? I have to just keep my distance, disinfect everything, get a hotel or pray?
Today I only texted him messages from XW from the parent portal about kid stuff. He responded to me as if I was asking so I just posted his responses on the portal. Very odd...as if he was distracted. I usually only pretend to be him when I manage expenses as I pay the bills.
Then he mentioned he may pop in tomorrow before he heads up for skiing in the pass. Which is odd; I thought that was where he was? And he was supposed to give me back the car he is using on Thursday not tomorrow? Believe nothing they say. It's so right. I have no idea or proof of where he has been the last few days. I'm hoping I am not around if he pops in tomorrow. He didn't ask me any questions, so I didn't respond to his texts. Not responding is odd for me, so he may ping me later to ask if I am okay or something.
Yeah, the ring on his pinky grossed me out too. I felt nauseated. Weirder that he was also wearing our ring too. When I saw it I said "is that your mistress's ring?". He scoffed as if thinking "she is my girlfriend, why are you using the word mistress", and said aloud "mistress?". I said "what else should I call her?". Then immediately said, "I'm not trying to argue with you, but if you would not wear that around me, I'd appreciate it. It makes me feel ill". He answered okay and that was that. I hadn't seen it since. I couldn't tell if he had it on on the zoom call as I didn't see his hands much, but it wasn't on the hand I saw.
Its so weird. Sometimes I feel like I am in some nightmare and I'm going to wake up. Thank goodness that we both have had our first doses of the vaccine, but I still don't feel safe. Her state is not doing as well as ours. The pandemic adds a whole new dimension to this experience. I'm also sad so many others are facing worse stuff than this. So I try to count my blessings. It could be worse. I'm not having a good night. Can you tell?
Hey Elbereth, hope you're taking care of yourself.
When we find out that our wayward spouse wants a divorce it hits us hard because it's a surprise. Then when we find out it's another person, it hits us hard because it is so counter to what we believed they were capable of. Well the truth is that they have been planning or thinking about it for a lot longer than you think. And they have been talking to the AP a lot longer than you think. They have done more things with the AP than you think and more frequently. And they enjoy the AP a whole lot more than you. Sorry to be blunt, but it is not easy to soften the blow.
I am 99% sure most wayward spouses exhibit the same patterns. Lies, cake eating, gaslighting... even displaying very blatantly that they are with the AP. Like that ring that your WH blatantly wears, my ex changed her OM's text ringtone to a very obnoxious sound. It would play all night at full volume for every text. They advertise this crap. They want us to leave. They want us to give up. They want to get in our heads. It took me a year to realize that the "girls trip" my ex went on was actually a trip with the OM... that happened about a year before the bomb drop. While I tried IHS, she left the OM's gifts around the house for me to see after she returned home at 3AM and 5AM in the morning. Very blatant, while spewing lies the entire time.
DBing is a really strange thing because it doesn't ever seem like the right thing to do when it comes to conflict resolution in a marriage. That's because it is not. You can't treat this like you used to when your marriage operated normally. All of those behaviors backfire every time. Being nice to them actually makes things worse. Don't believe anything positive that they say, it is almost always a lie.
DB and GAL is for you to reboot your life. It does not involve your spouse. It may involve some version of them in the future, or it may not. If you get good at DB then it won't matter. If you GAL your az off, it won't matter. DB and GAL is for you, and you alone.
Reading the LRT makes us believe that the wayward will see us in all our glory and change their mind if we GAL. This may work if your spouse is looking at the beach from the window of the hotel. But as soon as their toes touch the sand and the cool water splashes their legs, they are lost in the ocean and all of its promises. The reality is that if you are here on this message board, your spouse has probably already checked out and is on vacation.
So how do you treat them? Like a college roommate. Like the cashier at the grocery store. Like a bank teller. Like the person you have to work with that you put up with every day. Polite, but impersonal. Not rude, but not attentive. Professional, but not personal.
We all hoped that this community would be able to help us save our marriage. None of us can promise each other that result. But if you keep DB and GAL then we can promise that you will upgrade your life.
I am grateful that they do love me, will still stay here with me even if he isn't here, and all of that.
Elbereth, I do not mean to burst your bubble, but where else would they go? I know at 18-20 I didn't have a lot of options for where to live. I just want you to look realistically at EVERYTHING right now. Your emotions and rose-colored glasses will cloud your judgement, and you will put significance on things where there is none. I can completely relate.
For instance, just as an example, sometimes the WAS (one that is not in a PA) will want to scratch their sex-drive itch and will condescend to have sex with their LBS post-BD. We tell LBSs that it is okay to go ahead and do that (again as long as they are not in a PA!), but to have no expectations and affix no significance to it. I'd say 90% of LBSs cannot do that. I know I fell into that same trap. "She is willing and is actually initiating sex with me! It must mean she is changing her mind!" Yeah, no. Because the minute the R comes back up the LBS (mine included) made it clear that they still want to D.
So try to step back and look at things objectively. One of the best way to detach is to try to separate reality from what you want it to be. It is a constant struggle. The mind has coping mechanisms that will try to convince you that things are one way, when they are really another. Again, actions are more important than words. But even actions should be taken with a grain of salt.
Remember: Believe nothing he says, and only half of what he does.
Onward and upward!
Steve is another one whose S never moved out and he reconciled, so I think he's a good person to have on your thread and a great example of how to DB while in the same house, just like Wayfarer. There aren't many of us in that boat. (Though as Steve will be quick to remind you, his wife only had an EA, not a PA, or he'd have walked...
haha said with love, Steve!!)
may, love you too! LOL And please understand I know it is easier said than done. But I have religious reasons as well as personal reasons for having the line for that boundary/deal-breaker drawn where it is. (IE, I could move on and be free to remarry if a PA was involved.)
Steve is another one whose S never moved out and he reconciled, so I think he's a good person to have on your thread and a great example of how to DB while in the same house, just like Wayfarer. There aren't many of us in that boat. (Though as Steve will be quick to remind you, his wife only had an EA, not a PA, or he'd have walked...
haha said with love, Steve!!)
may, love you too! LOL And please understand I know it is easier said than done. But I have religious reasons as well as personal reasons for having the line for that boundary/deal-breaker drawn where it is. (IE, I could move on and be free to remarry if a PA was involved.)
May you made me spit my coffee.
So I am not religious so I do not know the answer does the bible distinguish between and EA and PA?
Steve is another one whose S never moved out and he reconciled, so I think he's a good person to have on your thread and a great example of how to DB while in the same house, just like Wayfarer. There aren't many of us in that boat. (Though as Steve will be quick to remind you, his wife only had an EA, not a PA, or he'd have walked...
haha said with love, Steve!!)
may, love you too! LOL And please understand I know it is easier said than done. But I have religious reasons as well as personal reasons for having the line for that boundary/deal-breaker drawn where it is. (IE, I could move on and be free to remarry if a PA was involved.)
May you made me spit my coffee.
So I am not religious so I do not know the answer does the bible distinguish between and EA and PA?
It talks about fornication being the only reason for D. EAs are a hotly debated subject about whether or not it qualifies. Regardless my personal line is drawn at a PA based on my personal beliefs on the issue.
It talks about fornication being the only reason for D. EAs are a hotly debated subject about whether or not it qualifies.
Well back in biblical times there were no computers and cell phones so the information is out dated. Just think if you wanted to send a nudey pic back then you had to hire a painter and then have them hand deliver it.
Regardless my personal line is drawn at a PA based on my personal beliefs on the issue.
This is where you run into trouble Steve. Everyone doesn't share your personal beliefs.
IMO EA/PA is all semantics. Once TRUST is broken and the genie is out of the bottle its hard to put back in.
Gottman talks about betrayal being on a spectrum. Here on this board we're mostly dealing with the most obvious and egregious of betrayals, but Gottman also talks about the tiny ways a partner can betray another, letting them down, choosing work over family time, the SSM. We all have to draw our own lines of what we'll accept and what we won't, and I'm sure none of us are totally innocent of some level of betrayal. I know my H considers the SSM a slow-motion act of betrayal, me turning away from him time after time for years. That adds up. Not to excuse him or anyone... but I do agree that the decision to stand or walk is a very personal one. I know a lot of LBSs (at least the ones here... I'm sure there are plenty who walked away without a second thought) have a total knee-jerk reaction to want things to go back the way they were. it is important to detach your emotions from the sitch (yes, I know! easier said than done) so that you can really think through what matters to you, your values, what kind of person your S is, all of that, before deciding whether to stand or not, and thinking through what standing might look like for you-- there is a whole lot of variety in that space as well.
For Elbereth-- you remind me a lot of myself. I said and felt a lot of the same things you're feeling and saying. For me, the control/boundaries thing was huge and I really didn't understand it. I want to dig into that a bit. (AlisonUK had some incredible posts on my thread on boundaries in the early summer, June/July I think? If you want to find them.)
"You can't come home and spend time with your son if you see OW without quarantining and testing before you return." This is not a boundary. This is an attempt to control his behavior. And it really seems impossible to enforce, anyway. I agree that a restraining order is probably a bit over the top. Also, is seeing OW the only way you think he'd be engaging in COVID-unsafe behaviors? Is it about OW for you, or the combination of his affair AND being an idiot about COVID that is really getting you? (I ask because if it was me, I *know* the affair part would have been a major portion of my feelings about it, even if I couched it even to myself in the COVID part only.... in fact, now thinking about it, I had a very similar situation last Feb., when my H went on a business trip to AP's city and I said if he didn't break it off with her then, he wasn't coming back home.)
Think about this. What if he weren't your husband? What if he was a family friend who wants to hang out? Once you decided you weren't comfortable seeing him for COVID-safe reasons, wouldn't you just... not see him? You wouldn't have to explain anything, even.
So maybe try this on for size:
"If you return from this trip and aren't prepared to quarantine in the house and get a COVID test after 3 days, I'll be at a hotel." The boundary protects YOU, it doesn't control his behavior.
The kids make it complicated, I think, especially because you don't have legal rights here. So I would balance it with what is in the best interests of the children. I think you said before he'd been living in the basement-- do you imagine he'll go back there? is that enough distance for you? Can you and the kids wear masks and stay 6 feet away from him at all times? open up all the windows so that you get a lot of cross-breeze? I'm sure you can figure something out. Just remember you only control you.
HUGS.
^^ Well-written by May on boundaries.
Working on not controlling (or being controlled) is part of almost all of our journeys.
Regardless my personal line is drawn at a PA based on my personal beliefs on the issue.
This is where you run into trouble Steve. Everyone doesn't share your personal beliefs.
IMO EA/PA is all semantics. Once TRUST is broken and the genie is out of the bottle its hard to put back in.
Agreed. All I can do is share my personal opinion....it is up to others to decide for themselves! Same with your advice. They can take or leave it. No sweat off our brows, right?
Think about this. What if he weren't your husband? What if he was a family friend who wants to hang out? Once you decided you weren't comfortable seeing him for COVID-safe reasons, wouldn't you just... not see him? You wouldn't have to explain anything, even.
So maybe try this on for size: "If you return from this trip and aren't prepared to quarantine in the house and get a COVID test after 3 days, I'll be at a hotel." The boundary protects YOU, it doesn't control his behavior.
Hello. If this was a family friend I could just say, yeah you can't come over to my home. But it's not. This is his home as much as it is mine. Don't get me wrong, I do recognize that there is a tiny bit of control in my boundary about him seeing OW and asking to protect me from Covid. But I feel sort of trapped in this one, because I am at risk no matter what I do unless I leave or get a restraining order. And my lawyer said I should avoid leaving the home for legal reasons. So as I recognize this one is hard to enforce and isn't solely the best type of boundary, I felt that at least putting it out there was the right thing to do...and I did say I am not asking you to not see the OW. Just keep the family safe just like you will avoid your friends if you are exposed to another pod. I feel it's really one of those boundaries that are very hard to enforce without also causing myself harm (disrupting my life, my sons life, my legal standing in the home). So I will just keep my distance and wear a mask. I can't control what he does in this scenario either.
I have another question for everyone. If I am "dropping the emotional rope" and embracing that, does that also mean I should NOT wear my wedding ring anymore? Does keeping it on, the WANT of keeping it on, not really emotionally letting go? I did have it sized for my opposite hand, and could wear it there as I love the ring (and it is not a classic diamond ring, its more unconventional). What are your thoughts on rings?
I have another question for everyone. If I am "dropping the emotional rope" and embracing that, does that also mean I should NOT wear my wedding ring anymore? Does keeping it on, the WANT of keeping it on, not really emotionally letting go? I did have it sized for my opposite hand, and could wear it there as I love the ring (and it is not a classic diamond ring, its more unconventional). What are your thoughts on rings?
Personally I believe you wear it because you are married. The day you are no longer married, you remove it. Others have differing opinions. You have to make the choice for yourself. I am not sure having a ring on your finger prevents you from moving forward with dropping the rope, but you have decide if it does or doesn't for yourself.
Dear Elbereth,
Just read your thread as well. Sorry you are here...
In regards to your wedding ring,
Follow your heart. If you want to wear it, then wear it. If you don’t, then take it off.
Simply do what you feel is right for you.
I removed mine the moment I saw her leaving hers at home. And guess who said something first about a wedding band not being worn? Not me. Waywards are weird like that.
Hello. If this was a family friend I could just say, yeah you can't come over to my home. But it's not. This is his home as much as it is mine. Don't get me wrong, I do recognize that there is a tiny bit of control in my boundary about him seeing OW and asking to protect me from Covid. But I feel sort of trapped in this one, because I am at risk no matter what I do unless I leave or get a restraining order. And my lawyer said I should avoid leaving the home for legal reasons. So as I recognize this one is hard to enforce and isn't solely the best type of boundary,
IDK, I think if you choose to go to a hotel because your H is putting you at risk of COVID and would not agree to safe behavior (quarantining and testing) I would be floored that it would impact your ability to keep the home in a D. Keep records of all of it. It isn't like you're moving out. You are protecting your own health. (That being said, I think it if was me, I'd do exactly what you're planning on doing-- wearing a mask and keeping your distance. It might be kinda fun to ostentatiously follow him around with a bottle of Clorox and paper towels too and wipe everything he touches, but that probably isn't exactly DBing.
)
I don't think there is anything wrong with asking him not quarantine and test. It is perfectly reasonable to ask someone who lives with you (H or not) to protect your health and that of your children. But I just wouldn't call that a boundary. It isn't. The boundary would be "I won't be around you if you refuse to quarantine" (and then you'd have to follow through by leaving). The control attempt is you must quarantine and test if you see OW on this trip before returning to (your) home and seeing (your) children. Do you see what I mean?
On the ring-- I agree 100% with the others. This is totally your call. I thought about this a LOT too. My H takes his ring on and off all the time for yoga and surfing, and I used to watch like a hawk (not say anything) to see when he took it off, how long it took him to put it back on, etc. Before the A, it was really rare for him to forget to put his ring back on. During the A it would be off more than it was on. He told me it didn't really mean anything, but admitted that because he wasn't feeling positive about our M (this was before I knew about the A, just that he wasn't "in love" with me anymore) he wasn't incredibly motivated to put it back on. I took some comfort in the fact he always wore it when he traveled-- somehow I felt like that meant something. Recently I asked him if he just took off his ring as soon as he got to AP's city and left it in his toiletry kit the whole time-- he said yes. So here I was reading into his wearing the ring as he left the house and thinking it meant something, when it meant nothing. Gross.
I wore my ring the whole time until this past September, when I finally was ready to D him. He was looking for an apartment, back in touch with AP, and I was done. I took off my ring then. I don't know if that meant anything to him, but I know he noticed. (And note-- I did not take it off to produce any response in him. I actually didn't think he would notice or care. I took it off because I was ready to D him.) When he changed his mind and wanted to try to R, he put his ring back on but I did not. I actually left it off for weeks, until I decided to put it back on for practical reasons (we were doing some renovations and I didn't want to leave my ring around the house with workers coming in and out all the time). Now, he always always wears his ring-- even if he goes surfing he sometimes gives it to me to hold for him rather than put it away.
The only thing I would add to the advice on the ring beyond doing what feels right to you, is not to force anything. Be patient with yourself. This is all hard, really hard, and takes time to properly process. Give yourself a break. One piece of advice that is repeated here a lot that I think is golden is to not react out of emotion on anything. Even when thrown into an unwanted R talk, just validate your way out of it and escape so that you have time to calm yourself, think rationally about what is happening, and decide how you want to respond. You have time on the ring question. Don't stress out about it.
((Elbereth))
Thanks all. I guess for now I think I will wear the ring as I'm still married and right now my heart says I should even if I can't explain why.
But thinking about all of this and about letting go/detaching/dropping the rope kind of had me pretty depressed last night. I had a good cry. Also, a friend called and was questioning my actions and I'm really getting tired trying to justify my behavior/feelings to others that do not understand my situation. So, even though I did discuss my feelings with her last night, I think more and more I am going to limit my discussing with most people. I hadn't done that prior to joining this forum, and realize that I really should have. Also, H has been open with people too about what is going on to. It seems more people than I prefer know what is going on, which won't help us if we do reconcile. It's very frustrating and I wish things had remained more private. I know they care and want to help. But I can't help feeling frustrated. And judged by some too.
H did pop in this morning to get some things and left. He wasn't wearing his ring. He was friendly, and I was as well, even though I avoided him as much as I could.
Reading Wayfarers posts really got to me as well. Her feelings about things ring so similar to myself but she is so much better at explaining it. Reading her words made me cry a lot, as if seeing the words to go with the feelings I am feeling and completely relating brought a lot to the surface. I'm reading your story now May starting a few threads back. You and I are both ones to struggle with control. I have to say how helpful this forum is to be able to see everyone's stories, struggles, etc, as well as triumphs (big and small). It really is helpful to learn and to grow, but also comforting to realize we are not alone. I do wish we could sit in a group setting and hug each other though!
Hugs to all of you...virtually.
Journaling mostly, but the last few days I've been a bit down and disconnected. It's really hard with the pandemic as it's hard to get out of the house to do new activities or see friends. I do get out to walk and exercise, but when the weather isn't so nice, I've not been outside a long as I would like. I am considering taking an intensive training course. It would give me something to focus on as well as something for my resume.
My H has not been here, and I haven't asked where he is staying. He had mentioned he would have an Airbnb this month, so he might be there or he might be at his friends house nearby. He still has things in the basement, whatever that means. During our last R talk (that he initiated), I stated "what is the rush to get a D?", and encouraged him to take some time to figure things out, so I'm giving him the space I said I would. Plus, with not knowing if he was with the OW earlier in the week, the space is good for the whole 'exposure to covid' issue.
I'm digging into DR book and setting goals and thinking about my own behaviors to change. Thinking back, I am my mother in many ways. It is true you learn from your parents and my parents marriage is not a good one. I see how some of my ways of communicating my desires were not aligned in the way that my H would respond to them. I'm very direct, blunt, and analytical, so to me explaining my feelings and expectations fully seems so logical. Well, reading the forum and the book is showing me that it's okay to be the way you are, but if it is not working, you need to change your approach. I just wish I had found this book before all of this happened. I do feel that the way we communicate and deal/not deal with issues was the main reason for our problems. I also recognize that it isn't just my ways, H has his own ways of communicating (and avoiding), so what we have been doing was not working. I'm hoping that as I drop the first dominoes that it helps to change the dynamic. And at least now I will learn tools for the future regardless of this MR or another.
S18 goes to his bio-Mom's house soon. He will pop in often as he does. I miss him when he's gone but also enjoy the time alone and not having to cook, clean, etc. But I do worry about him, he seems very unmotivated with school, frustrated about losing his senior year experience, and loss of sports. It's been hard to tell if what is happening between H and I is really affecting him or not on top of everything else. He's very closed off and doesn't want to talk to about things. I worry for his future, his motivations and drive, and his relationships.
I'm still reading others sitch's on the forum too. I've not added much responses yet, but I hope as I start to really feel like I'm 'walking the DB walk' I can also offer encouragement and advice like you all have for me. I guess that is enough rambling... I hope everyone has a weekend of positives.
Hi Elbereth,
I do get out to walk and exercise, but when the weather isn't so nice, I've not been outside a long as I would like.
I had to add gloves and ear warmers to my wardrobe--I agree, being outside on windy, chilly winter days is more challenging than in the summer. Luckily, it doesn't dip below 40 in the day where I am.
I'm digging into DR book and setting goals and thinking about my own behaviors to change. Thinking back, I am my mother in many ways. It is true you learn from your parents and my parents marriage is not a good one. I am considering taking an intensive training course.
Good plan and reflections. I try to balance GAL activity with inner work and acknowledging my feelings.
I'm still reading others sitch's on the forum too. I've not added much responses yet, but I hope as I start to really feel like I'm 'walking the DB walk' I can also offer encouragement and advice like you all have for me. I guess that is enough rambling... I hope everyone has a weekend of positives.
Wishing you the same! We are all works in progress! Namaste, Elbereth, keep up the solid work.
I had to add gloves and ear warmers to my wardrobe--I agree, being outside on windy, chilly winter days is more challenging than in the summer. Luckily, it doesn't dip below 40 in the day where I am.
Yeah, thankfully it doesn't get too cold where I am at too. I've bundled up and braved it, but sometimes when its cold, wet and gloomy, it gets harder to be motivated! But I am trying to go for at least an hour walk each day.
Good plan and reflections. I try to balance GAL activity with inner work and acknowledging my feelings.
Thanks, I see that doing that is important.
Wishing you the same! We are all works in progress! Namaste, Elbereth, keep up the solid work.
I definitely feel like a work in progress, but I know I am strong and will grow from this experience regardless. I do feel like I lost myself over the last few years, so even though I am sad, confused, and all from the turn my life has taken it has reminded me to focus on the things that are important to me again, and return a bit to putting myself first again. At least that is a goal!
H just popped in. Seems he is living in his "other" place now. An Airbnb. I was friendly, but I walked away first. He was friendly too. It's possible that was where he has been his whole time on vacation. I have no way of knowing...and not asking.
You seem to be handling the situation just fine Elbereth!
Good for you xxx
Eagle, I'm not so sure about that. But I am trying my best to focus on myself, detach and take one day at a time. Not much has occurred the last few days. H is living elsewhere and I've not reached out to him, but he has reached out to me once each day. Once was unnecessary, and once was about our son and his upcoming visit. I've been really sad. With the pandemic we were together so much, and now I feel his absence heavily. I'm trying to be strong and embrace the feelings so I can move through them while continuing self-care.
Thanks for the encouragement.
I agree with Eagle, as far as your handling of the situation. I understand you struggle with your feelings, but that is part of the process. The key, that you seem to have a handle on, is separating those feelings from your actions! IE, not letting your feelings tell you how to act. For instance, many LBSs struggle with missing their WAS, so they allow that to cause them to reach out to their WAS when they should be remaining NC. Or causes them to be overly accessible to their WAS when their WAS reaches out to try to keep the LBS attached.
From what you are telling us, you seem to be separating those emotions from your actions. That is the key. And why Eagle says you seem to be 'handling' your situation well.
We all take rides on the emotional rollercoaster. The key is to keep DBing through the ups and downs.
Hi Elbereth,
I agree with Steve and Eagle-- you're doing amazingly well. It would be strange *not* to feel down and emotional about what is happening-- it is enormously difficult. I've read that only the death of a spouse is harder to handle than what you're going through right now. But I have every ounce of faith you'll get through this. You're on the right path. You're driving the bus, not your emotions. (And I do think it is important to let yourself feel those emotions, even as you separate them from your actions. They are valid and you deserve to have them. Maybe use the time alone to give yourself a little wallowing time, express your anger and your grief in a safe and healthy way, so that you can be strong when your S comes back to your house?)
I was thinking (I know I have a lot of threads) but the time frame that is probably the most relevant to where you are right now is last year December-Feb and then again June-July. If that is helpful to you at all. Probably the most helpful part is that I was fortunate to have some incredible posters and so you can see all of their advice to me. (Also my H was/is a talker so there may be some windows there into what is going on in the WH's head.)
This particularly is great, I think:
I definitely feel like a work in progress, but I know I am strong and will grow from this experience regardless. I do feel like I lost myself over the last few years, so even though I am sad, confused, and all from the turn my life has taken it has reminded me to focus on the things that are important to me again, and return a bit to putting myself first again. At least that is a goal!
All of this is so healthy and you WILL grow from this experience. Stay strong. It will get easier. HUGS.
Thanks everyone. I've been spending a lot of time reading your story May and catching up on your sitch. Not much had been happening with mine the last few days...
But today, I'm freaking out. I was just googling my Hs name and that of his mistress and found that they started a llc together two months ago. He had also drained one of our investment accounts. I have a post-nuptial agreement based on that I have wanted to ask him to sign...but hadn't had the chance this week. Now I found this! I'm freaking out. I have no idea how someone you love can do such things. I have reached out to my L and am waiting to talk to him. I feel I will need to initiate divorce process even though it isn't what I wanted. I'm so sad and angry. I'm in shock. It's like a second BD. I'm so confused. And scared. A divorce could affect my job situation too.
Reading your sitch May, I realize how wonderful all of you are on this forum. The feedback and support from all of you is so amazing. I'm learning so much...and I'm so grateful. Please send some positive vibes my way today...I need the hugs.
HUGS.
And document everything. You did the right thing in calling your L. Are they experienced in these kinds of situations? Or just regular non-nutty Ds? You might spend some time on the MLC forum-- Gerda's situation comes to mind-- these MLC-ers will do things that are absolutely beyond the capacity of a normal human being to understand.
It may be time to buckle up and protect yourself. That may be separate from standing-- your M1.0 is dead now, a business deal gone wrong. Work on extracting yourself as safely and cleanly as you possibly can while remaining there for your stepchildren. That doesn't mean that there isn't a chance for M2.0 down the line. But right now, you need to protect yourself financially. Unfortunately, you may be only seeing the tip of the iceberg right now.
You can do this, Elbereth. It $ucks and isn't fair and makes no sense and all the rest. You've done such a great job of detaching your actions from your emotions... just keep moving forward.
(((Elbereth)))
Thanks May.
My L is not a D lawyer, but a lawyer referral from family. I may need to get a D lawyer and expect it to get ugly as I'm sure he's probably hiding more. I am in shock. I just don't know how someone can be so different from what they were. And I've done a lot for my H. Been there through some really tough "stuff" with him. And I've been so good for the kids. How can someone do this to someone who's been that loyal and not feel anything? I'm just blown away. I feel so bad for the OW spouse too. He probably has no idea. I feel so hopeless even thinking about reconciliation. At this point it's completely off the table.
I so hoped to just coast for a bit until S18 is off to school. Now, I think I need to move forward full steam, even if it means moving, etc. I've already gathered some documentation, but not really sure what all is needed in my situation.
I'll look up Gerda's sitch, I think I've seen pieces of it from before I joined this forum. Feeling so overwhelmed... One day at a time. One day at a time. One day at a time.
I know, it is so crazy that he is doing this. But as hard as it is to believe, he *is* and you just need to take it from there. One day, one step at a time. You have already shown yourself to be incredibly strong. You can do this.
Some additional advice I gleaned from the boards that might help:
-- set up consultations with the top three D lawyers in your town. Once they've consulted with you (normally a free hour on the phone or something) they can't represent your H due to conflict of interest, so you'll have your pick of the top Ls and he won't have access to any of them.
-- with him starting to clean out accounts, you need to immediately (if you haven't already) set up your own accounts where he does not have access and be sure your paychecks, etc. go there. I'd cancel joint credit card accounts. Some folks recommend moving half of your assets to an account he can't get into. I don't know about all of this but you should at least speak to an L and look into what is best for you right now, given his behavior.
-- in my state, if your H runs away and spends $$ on his "special friend" (as one of the Ls I spoke to called it) the judge will usually put those expenses exclusively on him. Debts run up in the same way can go to his side of the ledger. Document it all. Do you have a good handle on your entire financial situation? If you don't, that might be a decent way to spend the weekend while you wait for an appointment with an L.
I know you wanted to be able to provide stability for your stepson with all of this plus COVID and his senior year. Hopefully there are still ways you can communicate to him that you're always going to be there for him, will always be his family, he'll always have a home with you, etc. even as you go through this. (you might ask WF's advice specifically about this as she was really concerned about her teenage stepdaughter through her whole sitch too).
I'm so, so sorry this is happening. Stay strong.
Some additional advice I gleaned from the boards that might help:
-- set up consultations with the top three D lawyers in your town. Once they've consulted with you (normally a free hour on the phone or something) they can't represent your H due to conflict of interest, so you'll have your pick of the top Ls and he won't have access to any of them.
-- with him starting to clean out accounts, you need to immediately (if you haven't already) set up your own accounts where he does not have access and be sure your paychecks, etc. go there. I'd cancel joint credit card accounts. Some folks recommend moving half of your assets to an account he can't get into. I don't know about all of this but you should at least speak to an L and look into what is best for you right now, given his behavior.
-- in my state, if your H runs away and spends $$ on his "special friend" (as one of the Ls I spoke to called it) the judge will usually put those expenses exclusively on him. Debts run up in the same way can go to his side of the ledger. Document it all. Do you have a good handle on your entire financial situation? If you don't, that might be a decent way to spend the weekend while you wait for an appointment with an L.
I am fairly sure he started an online 'easy' process, as I saw documents and a billing issue, but he hasn't served me. My L did tell me to move what funds I could and I did. He didn't tell me to remove myself from joint cards, and not sure how to do that if I'm also managing the home expenses, and paying for food, etc. for the kids...his kids. All the bills and such come from joint account. As or the 'special friend' in my state it's no fault so the post-nuptial agreement was supposed to help with that issue...if I can even get him to sign. As for the rest, considering this isn't our first D rodeo and crazy XW, there is not a lot to share...some retirement, some assets. Not a lot of funds just sitting around. I don't know if that is good or bad.
He stopped by earlier and it took all my strength not to put a fork in his eye, I'm so angry and confused. But I acted normal. He didn't even notice I had been crying...he's so not engaged. I have a decent handle on the financial situation, but not sure of some recent changes on his end. But I've gathered what I can. Still waiting for my L to call me back, and good idea about interviewing with others in the area. I am looking for referrals now.
May, you and I are a lot alike, I can tell from reading your sitch. One thing in my favor is I have patience and I am detail oriented and he isn't, so I expect that he will feel overwhelmed by the upcoming process more than I will. My spreadsheets will drive him crazy. I'm very strong, but that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. A lot.
I'm keeping it quiet until I talk to my lawyer...only told my BFF. H is burning bridges with all friends and family, but I guess that is part of the MLC process...and obviously, my H is still in replay. I know I'll be fine without him, but it wasn't what I wanted.
Thanks for being there...it helps a lot!
Oh, and just read part of Gerda's story. Oh my. I hope he doesn't get that bad...but his XW is crazy like that. I'm not sure I could handle another few years dealing with crazy narcissists. Lord, help me!
I am in shock. I just don't know how someone can be so different from what they were. And I've done a lot for my H. Been there through some really tough "stuff" with him. And I've been so good for the kids. How can someone do this to someone who's been that loyal and not feel anything? I'm just blown away.
Hey El
I’m really sorry that you’re having to deal with this, I can understand how incomprehensible it is. Please know that it isn’t you, it’s him. Proof of this is how many of us here that go through the same feelings. When you’ve been through thick and thin with someone, been totally loyal, you really can’t understand how this is happening. But unfortunately it is, and accepting reality is the only way to deal with it. I’m sorry El, you have support here.
Thanks OnlyBent. I know I am not alone in my feelings and situation. Unfortunately. I know logically this is happening, but my heart is still a bit shell-shocked. I spent the weekend trying to get a grip on my feelings and accept it for what it is, and look to what I can do to help myself get through this. And how to protect myself financially. I took a look at your sitch and I'm sorry you are going through what you are, and with a young child. I appreciate you taking the time to drop on my thread and as lovingly as possible, gave me a much-needed "get a grip" whack with a 2x4.
Kind of a rough V-day. It was 11 years ago that I took the leap and joined an online dating site on this holiday...with the hope of meeting someone new and getting a new opportunity at love. Sad to think about that today, that the person I met on that site, and that I put my trust into, could discard me so easily...like an old sock. And be so deceitful. It hurts, but I'm a strong woman and I will find a way through. And I appreciate having this forum for support so much. Especially with the pandemic and isolation.
Anyway, Monday is a new week and my goal is to get all my financials in order to give to my L. I am also going to try to get my H to sign the post-nuptial agreement (that the funds he took from brokerage and funds he spent without my approval --on his OW, toys, Airbnbs-- come out of his portion of the assets), but since so much time has passed (L's fault) I hope he is willing. He gave me a verbal that he would...but now is the real ask. I'm not really sure how to bring it up. If anyone has had a sitch like this, how did it go? I had told him I would not "voluntarily" help him D me, so I wonder if "if you sign this, I will move forward with D" is something to try if he refuses initial ask?
Not sure that will work. He can D you whether you help him or not. You can try it, but if he is smart enough he won't fall for that.
Hi Steve85,
I know that he can still D me...I had just told him I would not help him with the process...but now I am gathering documents to most likely file myself or at least engage if he serves me first. Of course he is one of the MLCers that said "let's do this amicably and be best friends after". As I wanted to attempt reconciliation, I didn't want to make the D easy for him...but now that he's doing even more strange things with the financials, I feel I have no choice but to move forward with D. He had said he'd be open to this agreement when I confronted him about the money he took from our shared investment account, but I'm not sure he will stick with his response...get it notarized etc. But either way, my L has discussed my options and I will do what I can to get what is fair. Truth is, he doesn't deal with stress well, so I'll probably have the bandwidth and grit to get through the process more than he will.
Elbereth, I am not saying you shouldn't ask him to sign it, you should. But promising to "help" with the D if he does isn't really a power move. So I was answering that question directly.
The sooner you can get him to sign the better. And the sooner you ask him the more likely you will get him to do it. But I just want you to realize that he has to be willing, you cannot force him, and threatening and promising things likely will make him dig his heels in deeper if he refuses to sign it.
As far as how, I think a straight-forward approach would work. Call him and ask him when you could get together to "sign some paperwork related to the D"? Get a meeting time setup with him at where ever you are going to get it notarized, and have him sign it. Keep it all business.
I am a little confused though, if you have everything documented then you should be able to prove that he took the mutual funds and spent them on himself AFTER saying he wanted a D. Any divorce court worth its salt would rule in your favor if you have that properly documented. And WASs are typically very lazy about D anyway so he probably wouldn't even show up for the court date for that ruling anyway. I am surprised your L thinks this post-nuptial is necessary, but he is the expert so let's go with it.
Hi Elbereth,
It's a lot to take in. You've trusted and invested in this person for over 10yrs, and now they've betrayed you and are running in the opposite direction. I remember that feeling of wasted time/money/energy after BD#1. I still trust, but I extend less credit and ensure the "give and take" lie closer to a balance point.
You sound strong and I'm glad to see you taking steps to protect yourself such as asking your STBXH to sign a post-nuptial at your lawyer's recommendation. In my state, most financial protections set in at the moment one of you is served. It sounds like that hasn't happened yet, but you're close to it.
I see what you mean SteveLW. You are right that it comes across as a power move aka "controlling" which I am trying to work on.
I am a little confused though, if you have everything documented then you should be able to prove that he took the mutual funds and spent them on himself AFTER saying he wanted a D. Any divorce court worth its salt would rule in your favor if you have that properly documented. And WASs are typically very lazy about D anyway so he probably wouldn't even show up for the court date for that ruling anyway. I am surprised your L thinks this post-nuptial is necessary, but he is the expert so let's go with it.
Not sure, maybe it's differences in my state...but yeah, I do have documentation to show he withdrew the funds and the rest would probably come out in discovery. I'm hoping he will sign but he may not...as he is obviously hiding things...and may think he can get away with more than he will. My L thought it was worth a shot, especially as this was started before the new sitch occurred.
CWarrior, thanks. I think this sitch will change me forever. I've always been a trusting person. Now that my eyes are wide open to how 'fooled' I was, I won't be so trusting in the future. Not saying that there are not people out there that are trustworthy, more like I am struggling with how I can trust my judgement so fully in the future.
I didn't hear from H on Vday, big surprise, but every other day he's pinged me with something at least once. Tomorrow, H and both boys are coming over for dinner to celebrate some birthdays. I plan to try to be light, fun, and engaged, and try not to show how I want to cut his d*ck off. My goal is to keep things civil as I move forward in getting docs and such in place to file the D. Yeah, CWarrior, he has not served me D yet, but I know he had started an online 'quick' process..I saw a printout of some info he entered. So it could come any day.
One day at a time. One day at a time. Just keep moving right?
One foot in front of the other, one day at a time. You got this, Elbereth. It $ucks but you have it.
I know we have a lot of similarities and even in the thick of the worst of it for me, there was definitely something satisfying to checking something off of my to-do list... and getting all my financials in line and having consults with D attorneys was HUGE for me. I know you've been through this before but maybe not with someone who is acting as douche-y as your H is, so I will bet that as painful as that process is, it will help you to feel more empowered and OK.
On the post-nup, if you haven't already, I'd talk to your L first to see how necessary it is now given the changing circumstances. Also, I seem to remember that your L isn't necessarily an experienced D attorney, right? I'd be sure to have those consults with someone who has a lot of experience with this kind of thing, especially how to deal without spending an arm and a leg on an H who is clearing out accounts and may be trying to hide assets. I'd be wondering a bit if it could possibly backfire, like if he's stolen from other accounts that aren't listed in the agreement, he/his attorney could claim that since they weren't mentioned in this agreement, you were approving his use. Or, if there are assets that he's hidden and aren't addressed here, that their omission means you are giving up your rights to your half. I know there are ways to add language into agreements like this to protect yourself, but I just think it is worthwhile to have the conversation first with a knowledgeable D attorney before moving forward with it now that things have changed somewhat.
If they attorney still thinks it is a good idea, then I would ask him to do it. I like Steve's approach-- hey, I know we talked about this before, just moving along this path as we go forward. If he says no, maybe drop it and go back to the attorney before pushing anything, especially as you're wanting to keep things as civil as possible for now. I also live in a no-fault state, but mine is 'equitable division' and the judge can take fault into account when dividing property, like if one party runs up a lot of debt or spends $ on the AP. But I don't know that in every state it matters when he SAYS he wanted a D vs when the D is filed-- I think in my state what matters is when it is filed. Some states also have a legal S option (mine does but it wouldn't have been useful) and that could also be something you might want to look into if you want.
Hang in there! What's one self-care item you have on the list for either before or after you see your H tomorrow?
M
I know we have a lot of similarities and even in the thick of the worst of it for me, there was definitely something satisfying to checking something off of my to-do list... and getting all my financials in line and having consults with D attorneys was HUGE for me. I know you've been through this before but maybe not with someone who is acting as douche-y as your H is, so I will bet that as painful as that process is, it will help you to feel more empowered and OK.
Yes, I agree...it does feel empowering. My last D was pretty easy. This one is a lot harder for all the reasons you point out (and more), but I think I'm finally settling into the fact that this is what I need to do for ME. I can't let him also affect my financial future...so I have to put a stop to it asap. I am so angry, I can't even imagine reconciliation right now, but if I decide it's an option in the future, then it's still possible regardless. I don't think I will ever merge my finances with someone ever again.
On the post-nup, if you haven't already, I'd talk to your L first to see how necessary it is now given the changing circumstances. Also, I seem to remember that your L isn't necessarily an experienced D attorney, right? I'd be sure to have those consults with someone who has a lot of experience with this kind of thing, especially how to deal without spending an arm and a leg on an H who is clearing out accounts and may be trying to hide assets. I'd be wondering a bit if it could possibly backfire, like if he's stolen from other accounts that aren't listed in the agreement, he/his attorney could claim that since they weren't mentioned in this agreement, you were approving his use. Or, if there are assets that he's hidden and aren't addressed here, that their omission means you are giving up your rights to your half. I know there are ways to add language into agreements like this to protect yourself, but I just think it is worthwhile to have the conversation first with a knowledgeable D attorney before moving forward with it now that things have changed somewhat.
Thanks May. All good ideas. As my D was a family referral, I wasn't sure what his experience was with divorces previously. Also crazy ones that are not standard. So we discussed and turns out, he is very familiar with them and does half his business per year in divorces. And he deals with larger clients (celebs, wealthy, govt.), so that was a relief. He also said he 'knows how to find hidden money' so he felt secure in his experience for my situation. Mmmm. Ha. And the fact that he is connected with a family member helps (for a very long time). We did speak of the agreement and he encouraged me to move forward with it and if he declines, then that is another thing for the case. It's written in a way that points out specific things as well as a blanket for more to come. At this point, I'd be pleasantly surprised if he comes through with signing it. So I am looking at it as more evidence for the judge to review. And S can affect things in my state too, so it hasn't helped H that he moved out and I didn't. He is acting like we are not married but we still are. My L feels strongly that we have a case that can provide evidence for a 'equitable division' as you say...not exactly a 50/50 split.
Wish me luck tomorrow night when I have H and the boys over for dinner...Steak was the request...so I will try not to cut anyone (or any 'dingaling') with my steak knife. haha. Had to throw that in there!
Well, that didn't go to bad. And he still has his dingaling... hahaha
I showed H the agreement and he sort of was semi-resistant but also said he wasn't against it and part of it made sense. He tried to assure me he was going to be 'fair' to me, but I said I appreciate that but I can't trust that. I pointed out that with this agreement he could do more of what he 'needed to do' but not have me pay for it. So it was a win in that regard. He took the docs to look them over. Overall it was a nice 'family' night which was my goal. I kept the mood light and fun and enjoyed the evening, even if I am really upset about the recent discoveries. I am not ready yet with the D paperwork, so I feel better about keeping things closer to what they have been to avoid any new drama at the moment. I didn't want him to sense that I am going to move forward with filing. I felt very detached and not emotional about H this evening...which is sort of new. I usually have felt so sad and emotional after seeing him but tonight I felt detached and not sad at all. I think at this point, I feel I can take it or leave it. Actually, I don't want this person as he is. I want to get away from this person. If he changes into someone with integrity and character like I married, I might feel differently. But right now, to know he is lying to me and being deceitful and he's with some OW, I don't want him. Sure, I'm still hurt and angry, but I deserve more... Is this denial? Or am I hitting the level of indifference that I should be hitting to detach fully?
I'm supposed to see him tomorrow as we are go to an appointment together. He wants to talk more about the D, but I think I am going to try to avoid it if possible. I want to keep the focus on the agreement. Hopefully we won't get stuck for a couple of hours together. I'll probably see him on Friday as well before he takes our S back to school. Definitely the most I've seen him in a week or more and the most we have talked. I think he still feels like we can be great 'friends', but I do not think I want that once the D is finalized. I don't know how to do that with a man who is this person...but I've not verbalized that yet to him. Should I? Does it matter? Would it matter? I'm not sure. I definitely have pulled away and am doing less communication, and I think he wasn't sure how to read me when they first arrived, but I made the night fun for the family. I guess I'm worried about how this might confuse him, but tonight was for me and the kids...I needed it to be a fun family night. So, I got that. If he is confused at my detachment on other times, that I guess should be his issue?
All of this is so odd, and I'm just trying to go with my gut instincts and also trying to not make it uncomfortable for the boys...especially being with them half time as a step-mom.
You're doing great.
I will respond later to the questions about how to be with your H and whether or not to say X or Y or care or whatever but... I want to know about YOU.
What are you doing for yourself right now? GAL plans? Self-care? Put all his cr@p to the side for a sec and do something for yourself and tell us about it.
xoxo M
Ha! Thanks for making me smile May!
Actually, I just spent a bit of time trying to resolve an error on my MacBook. lol Gave up. Try again tomorrow.
So not much for self care at the moment when you posted, but I did meet up today with a friend I haven't seen in about 10 years for lunch (we have interacted on social, but I haven't "physically" seen her in a long time) and I took a nap before the family came over (not done that in a long while). So today was overall a good day for self-care and doing my own thing. I'm trying! Lately my self care has been yoga, walking, reading, baths, time with friends, and cleaning up my home office which was getting super messy. I'm considering taking a front-end development coding course, but not sure I should commit until after I get all the D stuff moving along. I'm in a creative field and do some light coding, but want to be able to do more creative website work than what I am able to do now...plus I think it will make me more marketable on top of the other digital/print creative I do.
I am guessing you are on the west side of the country too, since you replied kind of late for an east coaster?
Today I took a long walk and listened to a podcast I heard about via the NYTimes called Alone: A Love Story. It is about a woman who is betrayed by her H and it's her story. I've not finished it yet, and I'm in the part where she has been divorced and has met someone new. Anyway, in the story she speaks of a moment after the BD where she would just drink herself numb. She went to get more liquor and almost ran a car off the road. The older man in the car was yelling and cussing and followed her for a while, very angry. At some point, they had to both stop at a red light and he pulled up beside her, still yelling and screaming. When he looked in her face he could tell she was not well, or okay. He softened immediately and asked if she was okay. She said no. He told her, "lady, whatever you are going through, it will be okay". He promised. He made her say it, and he stayed saying it with her while cars were honking at them to go (when the light turned green). this moment, these words, this caring stranger, allowed her heart to start beating again, and she knew he was right. She would be okay.
The connection and the kindness of strangers. That is what she felt and what I see on this forum, even when we can't see in each others eyes. I've been reading about May, and now I'm reading about your story Sage, and I read Gerda's and Wayfarer's too, and bits and pieces of many others. I'm trying to get to all of them. I am learning so much from your stories, and I am so grateful. I no longer feel alone...the connection of strangers. I'm sorry all of you have had these stories too, but we are all going to be okay. Because we have each other...strangers but connected. And I feel more supported by you all then the people in my life who care about me, because you understand. I feel like you all are looking at me through the window and telling me it's going to be okay. I hope I can do the same for you.
((((Thank you))))
I feel like you all are looking at me through the window and telling me it's going to be okay. I hope I can do the same for you.
What a beautiful message. I'm here, listening, and care. Although, I promise not looking through your window--that would be creepy! I was glad you met up with an old friend yesterday. I hope your weekend is full of whatever self-care you need at the moment. A good walk and podcast sounds like a great start! ((Thank you)) to you, too, for the messages and support you've offered me.
What a beautiful message. I'm here, listening, and care. Although, I promise not looking through your window--that would be creepy!
Haha, I obviously did not mean a window in a creepy way like that! lol
((((CWarrior))))