Hi All
First timer here. I am from the UK. So apologies for British spelling!
I have been married 3 years, and with my wife for a total of 8 years.
Our relationship was very good. We both helped around the house, we cooked together, we had very similar tastes in music, film, tv, comedy, outlook on life etc. We were well matched. She was really good for me and brought me out of my shell to a degree (and improved my dress sense!). Our families and friends all got on.
She discovered in May 2019 that I have been using p**n sites since the start of our relationship. I started using the sites before I met her, around 2008. This progressed from looking, to signing up to a few free sites, to communicating with other users, to uploading things myself, to commenting on other user's material, to messaging/emailing 2 women from one of those sites. I paid them about £60 GBP to receive some photos from them. It then escalated to me sending some pics of my exes (normal, clothed) to one of the women, and also I sent a photo of her sister to one of the women and she commented on her in a vulgar way. I am not attracted to her sister in any way - she is really quite annoying and I've never really warmed to her - but of course my wife feels rejected about the whole thing.
It is essentially an addiction, going for a more and more outrageous 'buzz' each time. I hid it from her as I was ashamed. I never asked anyone for help.
I am seeing a therapist for this now. Things are going really well and I have really made some major leaps. The addiction stems from lack of self-esteem, fear of failure, low stress tolerance, fear of intimacy etc.
She was totally distressed when she discovered everything. Stupidly, I left the windows open on my iPad, and she happened to open it when I was out at work one morning (we share each other's iPads and know each other's passwords as we share apps etc.). She went to my friend's, then her brothers, then a friends, then up to her sister in Scotland.
She asked me to move my clothes out of the house. I'm living with my parents. She is living alone in our house.
In May we kept having long (2-3hour) phonecalls that didn't really end well; she'd ask for every gory detail. It was awful.
Then in June, I saw her for the first time on June 8th. For the next few weeks things were a bit more positive. She was more affectionate and we'd meet up a few times at the house, cook together, go out for dinner together etc. We even made love a couple of times and she was texting me at work saying she thought about me a lot. I even took a polygraph test to prove I never met up with anyone and that there was nothing more for her to discover. I passed the test with flying colours. I had also been sending her my phone bills/internet activity etc., to prove I had not been using the sites. I still haven't been using the sites.
In July she suddenly didn't contact me for 3 weeks. She wouldn't respond to any texts at all except for when I needed to go up to the house to collect things occasionally for work etc.
Then on 29 July she emailed me saying she doesn't love me anymore and wants a divorce. She says I have 'rubbished' her love and cannot trust me as I lied for the whole relationship. I had chances to stop (when we met, moved in, got engaged etc.) and I didn't. She believes I favoured the addiction compared to her. She agreed that she will not fight or play dirty, and everything will be 50/50. Having no kids makes the process easier it seems.
She has since texted me to say that she is very sad. She says "It's all very final, I'm so sad it has all had to end like this, I wish things were different and none of this ever happened." She has also said "I want a friendship from this as I care very deeply about you and your happiness" and "I would like to be friends."
It was our anniversary on 3 August. I left her a present and card. In the card I said I was sorry that things went the way they did, and that I accepted her decision. I then hoped her family/friends are ok and that I loved our life together. She texted me that evening to thank me and said it "meant a lot" to get that card.
I met her at the house on 17 August. We went through every room in the house and made a list as to who will get what. We agreed about finances etc. She also wants the house on the market very quickly.
She is finding the whole thing stressful and will move in with her brother and his wife. She runs a few businesses and needs to use machinery and tools (currently in our garage) but now that we'll sell the house she can't afford to buy somewhere herself yet and so her machinery may need to go to her parents' garage which is 200 miles away. Her work life is therefore all over the place.
I feel awful. We have not been fighting recently; everything has been calm and pleasant. We even had a few laughs at the weekend.
I am taking steps to improve myself - catching up on hobbies, exercising, talking to family and friends.
She has sent off online divorce application forms already. I am dreading receiving it. I would love her to reconsider but I think she's decided this is her stance - she's quite headstrong! - and that I have to deal with the consequences of my actions which I acknowledge.
I would really appreciate any thoughts you may have.
Thankyou.
Me - 36
W - 32
No kids
Met - 30 October 2010
Married - 3 Aug 2016
Day of discovery of betrayal - 14 May 2019
Separation - started 25 May 2019
Divorce announced - 29 July 2019
She sent off Online form - 18 August 2019
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Thank you - I have started reading the articles and links. These are helpful.
I am trying my best to stay positive. Most of the time it is successful but of course I have times where I feel sad every day which is natural. Nonetheless, I'm making good progress with things for myself.
The hard bit is having no expectations!
Of course the mind runs wild with fantasies about how things might turn out, good or bad, and it's hard to not let you go down those routes sometimes. But as I say, positive thoughts - as twee and it sounds - really does help.
Hey Dan, sorry to hear about your situation. Many of your W's comments are exactly what I've heard from mine. My sitch was different (worse) but the core issue (violation of trust) is the same. I'm not out of the woods yet and I'm not sure that I will be but I can share my experiences/thoughts.
I was in the same boat when it came to wanting to be friends, trying to be fair when dividing things up (I was willing to give her everything to prove that I was sorry and would do anything to get her back). It sounds like you are willing an capable of change so, assuming that's the case, then I would ask myself why you felt unable to share this with her? It sounds like there were communication issues from an early point in your relationship (which is typical) but that goes both ways. In my case, as one example, I was shamed for saying that I didn't care for my W's brother so I never felt comfortable sharing anything darker. Point is, while I own the cheating, the bad MR (and communications) ar partially owned by my W.
This isn't about blame, it's about understanding yourself and your relationship so that you can either improve them with W or someone else.
It sounds like you are already GALing and taking care of yourself so that's a positive - it is fortunate that you have friends and family around. The only other advice I'd share at this point is to validate when she's talking to you but also to keep those conversations to shorter timeframes. I can say from personal experience that trying to discuss tough topics in a new way (validating) for hours is mentally exhausting and you will undo all of the good work you do in the first 45 minutes when you snap at the 46 minute mark. As awkward and bad as it may be to break a conversation off that feels like it's going well, the alternative is worse.
Best of luck, I'm thinking positive thoughts in your direction.
It was down to me being too introverted. My family are quite quiet and we don't really express our emotions very much. However my wife's family is very much heart-on-sleeve, loud, opinionated, sweary, almost hot-headed. It was a shock when I met them all the first time, particularly her sister.
Her sister gave a really bad impression to me when I met her as she had a massive go at my wife when she was my girlfriend at the time, berating her for not having a good career or sorting her life out at 23 when she was already married with 2 kids. I thought it was inappropriate to fight back for her as I was in her parents' house with her entire family there! But I've always been weary of her since then. My wife is thankfully not like that, but is always seeking approval from her sister; she's always trying to tell her how to live her life and pressuring her to have kids etc. Perhaps that was why I uploaded the innocent photo of her sister in that chat, to take her down a peg or two...? Anyway that's done.
When I was younger I always got things right. When you get older of course, you make mistakes but I don't cope with that well, I hate failure. Therefore even tiny things I'd do wrong I'd dwell on. For example, we paid £140 for new blinds in our house and I measured the window frames incorrectly. So when it came to fitting, my wife discovered only 1 out of the 3 we ordered (bespoke) was correctly fitting! She had a go at me but I really dwelt on that for months after. Hence the use of p**n - I used it as an escapism, to get out of my negative states from building up lots of instances when I'd messed up, however irrelevant they may seem. Now, my therapist is working on my increasing my 'tolerance' for mistakes - it's OK to mess up! It's how you deal with it that counts. Using those sites meant I could project a 'fake' persona and do things totally out of character with no consequences (well, so I thought). You are anonymous and "using a fake username so it's ok". Then once you 'act out', you return to normal life and go about your daily business. But then a bad thing will happen again, and then you feel guilt about acting out, so you act out again to get rid of the negative state. The brain becomes 'wired' to always going down that path to escape feeling bad about yourself.
Interesting.
I am GALing (love all the abbreviations on this site!) certainly.
She has texted today asking me to get some estate agents to value the house this week (she is abroad on holiday with friends).
I've kept my wedding ring on. She's still my wife, so I'm wearing it. It feels wrong to take it off. I tried not wearing it for 1 day at work, and regretted it instantly.
Hello Dan, she's lost trust for you and that makes it very difficult for her to want a relationship with you again. I'm sure it seems like this has been dragging on forever, but it's only been a few months and it's going to take much longer than that for her to believe you really have changed. So you need to be very patient! It sounds like you've done all the right things- owned what happened, gone to IC to help you deal with it, were open with her about it, have been transparent with her since. So that's all good. Just stick to your changes and take a long-term view. Eventually she may very well decide that the M is worth a shot again.
I like to think that is what can happen, particularly as she is really pushing the "I really want a friendship."
Even her mum rang my mum yesterday afternoon and said "at least they will remain friends." My mum was in bits. I know I have really let her down. I gave her a hug yesterday and cried with her.
I think I will enjoy just getting through things and letting my changes be obvious to her. I hope we can give it another shot, but whether she'll want to go through it again is another matter. As you say, it's been 3 months from discovery to arguments to separation to divorce.
Well we've already got at least 2 estate agents coming to look value the house this Saturday 24th, and possibly another on Wednesday. I feel it's all just too fast, but that's what she wants.
I'm going to London tomorrow with my best friend from school for the day so that will be a nice day out to forget about things and just try to be happ and have a good time.
Hi Dan,
You definitely need different advise than most here. Most are dealing with infidelity of their spouse.
Your W is hurt and angry and you need to rebuild trust.
Do not send what I am writing, but use it as a guild line for future in person communication . I believe you should script out a "What will it take" speech. We can help if you want.
She has since texted me to say that she is very sad. She says "It's all very final, I'm so sad it has all had to end like this, I wish things were different and none of this ever happened."
H:"I am so sorry I hurt you. I wish I could change the past, but I can't. I wish I knew then what I know now. I can't believe I was so stupid"
She has also said "I want a friendship from this as I care very deeply about you and your happiness" and "I would like to be friends."
I cherish our relationship, but if we do divorce, there is no way I can just be your friend."
What are your thoughts?
Dan, things are moving fast for sure, I suspect she's got her parents or someone in her ear pushing her to end things ASAP. Don't help her along but don't interfere either. A lot of marriages end in divorce before starting over again in recon, so divorce doesn't necessarily mean the end of things. Sometimes a WAS has to divorce the "old spouse" before they can appreciate the new one. I've seen it a lot. Hang in there.
I have kind of done this.
To the first quote, she said "I'm sorry, this is horrible."
I texted back "It must have been so hard for you to go through the terrible process of filling in the divorce application form. This is all horrible. You don't need to apologise at all. I really am sorry."
She is going on holiday on Thursday 22nd for a week. I am writing her a letter where I'm explaining how I messed up and offering some empathy for her - i.e. make the letter about HER ("I'm sorry you feel like this etc.") instead of about me ("I will do anything to make it right.").
I don't like the thought of never seeing her again. I don't want to cut her out of my life.
Dan, things are moving fast for sure, I suspect she's got her parents or someone in her ear pushing her to end things ASAP.
I have a feeling it's her sister, some of her friends, and her work colleagues.
A lot of her work colleagues are separated or divorced. She even told me they have said to her, "Well I took my husband back and now I'm trapped, I regret it." etc. She says her parents haven't influenced her, and I do believe her. They have been very neutral and just said they'll support her with whatever she does. They are just sad about it and "hope that I can get better".
This is the letter I want to write her
**
I know you have heard me say sorry many times already, and I know that we are both so very sad that things have gone the way they have. I’m not intending to control or force you to do anything by writing this letter. I just want to say a few more things that I hope will help you heal a bit more.
When we got married in 2016 you believed I would make you feel cherished and loved for the rest of your life, and that you’d feel safe with me. However there have been times where I have made you feel neglected, and now - worse than that - rejected and betrayed. To discover that the man you had entrusted your life with had such a horrible part to him that he was too afraid to disclose it to anyone – not even you, the closest person he had – must have caused you so much distress.
I am horrified to see before me the depth of pain I have created. You have given so much in the 8 years we have been together, yet I do see how devastated you are now, and I cannot believe that I did what I did.
Whilst you gave yourself to me, and I totally loved being with you, in the background I was feeding an addiction that was debilitating and degrading because I was using it as escapism from other issues of mine instead of actually dealing with those issues in a mature way with your support. I know that your discovery of what I did was shocking and utterly devastating, since it was something that I had not addressed and instead brought into the relationship without you knowing. I understand how you would have felt so deceived by this.
As a result of inflicting such a trauma on you, I do not blame you for losing trust in me, and that your love for me has been affected so terribly. Words will never fully express the complete and abject remorse that I have for what I did, and how I was too weak-willed, ashamed, and scared to ask for any form of help before it was too late. Your husband became a threat to your self-worth and I am mortified to have done this.
I know that for all the times you have shared your thoughts with me – both good and bad – I did not reciprocate equally. You have not received the same openness from me that I got from you, and I was a fool to be so immature and closed off, to merely accept that I had created these emotional barriers and not seek to actively get rid of them so I could benefit from your loving support even more. When I felt I was in trouble I should have reached out to you, my wife, for guidance. I am sorry I did not do this. Please understand that, for all time, I want to be someone you feel you can speak to, as I would want to speak to you. Whenever you need someone to listen to your concerns or share any anxieties, I will be here.
In the last 8 years you have had such a life-affirming impact on me in so many ways, yet I am so remorseful for the way you have been treated. The love I have for you was something I felt very strongly; I was delighted to feel something that profoundly as I thought it would never come. But I did not have the decency to always let you know, nor did I have the strength to fight my underlying problems before they ended up contributing to your feeling completely drained emotionally and physically.
I think back over our life together often, and am amazed at just how much we’ve done in such a short space of time.
For years I accepted what I feel for you as simply a part of me, flowing through me. In addition, the love and affection I have received from you is something so gorgeous and uniquely precious.
As I said at the start of this letter, I am not trying to force you to do anything. I just wanted to offer you some empathy so you know how much regret I have for what I have done.
All I can say now is that you are still one of the most important people in my life. I will always care for you at a depth that is ‘without fathom’. [note 1]
“And in the hush, remember us.” [note 2]
You are - and will forever be - my soft. [note 3]
*****
NOTES
1. This is an in-joke - It's from the film Megamind which we saw on our first date and we always laugh about that line. A character cannot say the word unfathomable, so gives up and says "without fathom"
2. This is a line from a song by one of our favourite artists, Aqualung.
3. We used to call each other 'soft' - it was our pet name for each other.
No letters. NO LETTERS.
I will respond later why. Read my sitch if you want. In the meantime hold back on giving her any letter.
This might be the most important piece of advice I can give
Dan, please re-consider sending this. I didn't read anything that changes unchien's "No Letters!" It's a common desire to want to lay everything out in words. It's rarely a winning approach.
OK Dan I have a few more minutes here.
NO LETTERS. Do NOT send it. You can draft as many of these as you want, burn them and throw them in the trash or delete them.
I have never felt more strongly about any post I have made on this forum. If you want to argue why you should send it, go ahead and post here and I will try to respond.
There is a lot to unpack here. But if you want to earn back trust with your W, the only way to do that is through consistency in action. Words are empty at this point. This letter will dig you a much deeper hole, I can promise you that. It will be pored over and criticized to the Nth degree for everything it does or doesn't contain.
This all may sound harsh, but I firmly believe that this forum exists to help people and sometimes we need to strip away the politeness to really help. I'm sorry you are here, and I hope you keep posting. I've been here 4 months and this place has in many ways saved my life.
I am horrified to see before me the depth of pain I have created.. how devastated you are now.. must have caused you so much distress.. inflicting such a trauma on you.. contributing to your feeling completely drained emotionally and physically
Dan, if I'm reading correctly--you looked at porn (like 98% of men and 73% of women in the past 6mo), asked two women for pics, sent a pic of her sister without permission, and kept this hidden. Is that all? I'm not trying to be snarky. You did wrong, but her reaction's strong, almost like you shared about your life with those women (emotional affair) or let your wife's sex life suffer (getting satisfaction elsewhere).
You hint at deeper issues. You ordered the wrong size part and she "had a go at you", and you escaped into porn. What did "having a go at you" entail? If it was excessive, did she apologize and make up?
Unchein, I'd be interested to hear why you believe it is a bad idea? My reasoning is that it focuses on her, not me, and that I'm empathising with how betrayed she feels.
CWarrior - yes that is the situatoin. However, she says she cannot forgive that because "you took a marriage vow KNOWING you were doing this behind my back. It was not a clean slate."
I did not have emotional affairs with the 2 women. It was some dirty talk and some pictures. The only non-sexual thing was one of the women said something about her dog dying and I said I was sorry to hear that. But my W beleives that I'd "formed a relationship" with them.
Our sex life was up and down really. At the beginning it was fantastic. In the last couple of years or so less frequent. My W has a few illnesses and also often feels tired, so sometimes I would be in the mood for intimacy but then she'd say "I feel really tired" so I backed off. But then I wouldn't instigate anything for weeks, because she wasn't giving anything back either. She felt like she was "doing all the work". I just think it was lack fo communication; she didn't tell me there was a problem, and my male brain thought, "Oh she hasn't brought up a problem, so there can't be an issue."
Sex with her was always great.
By 'had a go' I just mean she was annoyed at me and had a bit of a rant, nothing abusive or anything, just a telling off really. I just mis-read the measuring instructions on the blind company website. She did apologise and things were then fine.
She feels that in doing all this in secret I "preferred this life to your life with me", or I "was more attracted to the porn girls than me" or "lied to me for 8 years".
Dan, most of us here have sent letters. I have read thousands and thousands of pages here and I am yet to read about anyone writing a letter and it went down well. 100% of the cases, it's made things worse. I'm no expert so I can't tell you exactly why but probably the too little too late thoughts in their mind.
Also, you need to remember - actions, not words. Nothing you can say or write will help. Your actions is what maybe will make them believe you have changed. And even then it will take a long time. You just have to accept that.
It's hard because I'm worried she feels I don't care how she is - of course I do as I'm the one who's caused this damage. She is just so headstrong and stubborn it makes it harder (she's half-Scottish and a redhead!).
I have acknowledged what I've done. She is very sad about how it's ended, so isn't being nasty to me. I suppose that is a ray of light in all this.
I do wish we could R. However, if that does happen it may have to happen after D. I have to show her the new me. It will be difficult as we'll be living 40miles apart. But I am hoping we can still meet up and talk.
What are people's thoughts?
Dan, like the others said, don't give her the letter. Writing letters can be therapeutic but it's for you, not her. Write it and burn it.
You've already apologized numerous times to her over this, STOP APOLOGIZING. Volume is not better than quality when it comes to apologies. Apologize from the heart, then let it go.
A lot of LBS's have gone to divorce court only to get slapped in the face with their very own letter of contrition. What seemed like a good way to apologize is now being used against them as proof that everything is their fault and that they should pay dearly in D court. And guess what, the judges do accept those letters as evidence of marital misconduct, and some LBS's have lost child custody and gained a significant alimony and child support burden as a result.
If your W brings the past up again in person then it's OK to humbly apologize again (VERBALLY), but don't initiate any more apologies.
Unchein, I'd be interested to hear why you believe it is a bad idea? My reasoning is that it focuses on her, not me, and that I'm empathising with how betrayed she feels.
Dan,
I completely understand this strong instinct to write an apology letter. I've been there. You are probably reading advice from people like myself and thinking... yeah yeah yeah these are disgruntled vets and things didn't go their way. There are people here who have reconciled... I have yet to find a case where a letter was the magic wand.
You don't have kids, you're going to split assets 50/50, I would not worry about the legal implications of the letter.
I am going to respond with a bit of a trick question for you:
How do you hope your W will respond to this letter?
When she brings up past hurt in person, then VERBALLY with your full attention and eye contact, you tell her you are sorry for hurting her.
In general, the less word, the more the impact. Use just enough to get the full message across.
I know you have heard me say sorry many times already, and I know that we are both so very sad that things have gone the way they have. I’m not intending to control or force you to do anything by writing this letter. I just want to say a few more things that I hope will help you heal a bit more.
When we got married in 2016 you believed I would make you feel cherished and loved for the rest of your life, and that you’d feel safe with me. However there have been times where I have made you feel neglected, and now - worse than that - rejected and betrayed. To discover that the man you had entrusted your life with had such a horrible part to him that he was too afraid to disclose it to anyone – not even you, the closest person he had – must have caused you so much distress.
I am horrified to see before me the depth of pain I have created. You have given so much in the 8 years we have been together, yet I do see how devastated you are now, and I cannot believe that I did what I did.
Whilst you gave yourself to me, and I totally loved being with you, in the background I was feeding an addiction that was debilitating and degrading because I was using it as escapism from other issues of mine instead of actually dealing with those issues in a mature way with your support. I know that your discovery of what I did was shocking and utterly devastating, since it was something that I had not addressed and instead brought into the relationship without you knowing. I understand how you would have felt so deceived by this.
As a result of inflicting such a trauma on you, I do not blame you for losing trust in me, and that your love for me has been affected so terribly. Words will never fully express the complete and abject remorse that I have for what I did, and how I was too weak-willed, ashamed, and scared to ask for any form of help before it was too late. Your husband became a threat to your self-worth and I am mortified to have done this.
I know that for all the times you have shared your thoughts with me – both good and bad – I did not reciprocate equally. You have not received the same openness from me that I got from you, and I was a fool to be so immature and closed off, to merely accept that I had created these emotional barriers and not seek to actively get rid of them so I could benefit from your loving support even more. When I felt I was in trouble I should have reached out to you, my wife, for guidance. I am sorry I did not do this. Please understand that, for all time, I want to be someone you feel you can speak to, as I would want to speak to you. Whenever you need someone to listen to your concerns or share any anxieties, I will be here.
In the last 8 years you have had such a life-affirming impact on me in so many ways, yet I am so remorseful for the way you have been treated. The love I have for you was something I felt very strongly; I was delighted to feel something that profoundly as I thought it would never come. But I did not have the decency to always let you know, nor did I have the strength to fight my underlying problems before they ended up contributing to your feeling completely drained emotionally and physically.
I think back over our life together often, and am amazed at just how much we’ve done in such a short space of time.
For years I accepted what I feel for you as simply a part of me, flowing through me. In addition, the love and affection I have received from you is something so gorgeous and uniquely precious.
As I said at the start of this letter, I am not trying to force you to do anything. I just wanted to offer you some empathy so you know how much regret I have for what I have done.
W:"H, bla bla bla porn bla bla bla"
H:"W, Words will never fully express the remorse that I have for hurting you. I regret what I have done."
W:"Bla bla bla bla "
H:"I am sorry. I wish I could change the past"
You listen to understand her feelings. Then acknowledged the feelings. She does most of the talking.
Hi Dan - I'm UK based also.
I've got a sackcloth and ashes you can borrow if you wish. You've apologised. I think she knows you're sorry but she isn't interested. Don't do that awful thing where you keep saying over and over, louder and louder, slower and slower because you haven't got a response from her.
I too am stubborn but I can promise you that she is going over and over in her head everything that you've said to her in relation to this. Also, when we're angry we rewrite history and everything that you ever did was wrong, immoral, insensitive etc etc It fades with time. Give her time and space.
However, what I really want to ask you is why are you facilitating the estate agents? Why have you responded to her requests to do so when she is on holiday. Let her do the hard work. Don't stand in her way but don't do it for her. You see in our sometimes complex female logic, we can turn round your nice guy actions in our heads and come to the conclusion that you don't want to be married either. Otherwise why would you be helping. If you pursue and are all sorry all the time we see you as weak. If you are nasty then it shows us that we were right about you all along.
The point is that you are very unlikely to get it right or choose the right option. It may seem unfair but because she has decided that she's done, whatever you do can be misconstrued.
The guys on here are often heard to say that you can't nice her back. You also can't force your remorse on her. It is her right to not accept it and to end the marriage if she wishes. At the moment she wishes to, so have some respect for that. It may turn out to be all hot headed celtic blood.
In the meanwhile do all the DB basics if only to stop yourself obsessing and definitely stop yourself from sending a letter.
She only needs to glance back once and see a strong, together man who obviously has remorse for it to sow a seed of doubt in her mind about what she wants in the future.
Do not panic. Gain yourself some time wherever you can.
She only needs to glance back once and see a strong, together man who obviously has remorse for it to sow a seed of doubt in her mind about what she wants in the future.
THIS
Focus on your personal growth. I did and do not regret it.
Take this time to work on you. Use your W's input as a spring board. Make positive changes in your beliefs and behaviors as well as how you respond to other peoples actions, including your W's.
Agree with the suggestions for personal growth. She's giving you the gift of space and time, make use of it. Who did she fall in love with? I'm guessing that it was someone who was confident, focused, and true to himself, not someone who was following her around like a lost lamb, begging and pleading. You don't have to go back to the person you were (he's gone anyway), get out, experiment, try new things, and find out who you want to be. If that turns out to be someone she wants to be with, great! And if not, well, do you want to be someone you are not?
Side note: agree with the advice to stop helping her to execute the divorce. I felt intense guilt at my transgressions and would have happily moved my W's stuff, piece by piece, by hand to prove my commitment and shame. I stopped doing anything I wasn't asked specifically to do (except, of course, anything that involved my daughter) and, even when she asked (which, as I'm finding, was rare - she has a sense of entitlement so it is usually more like "hey, someone needs to be here when the realtor comes to take pictures"), I generally had something [legitimately] better to do. In my mind, the divorce is my wife's project which I'm giving her the space to run as she sees fit. I will go to mediation sessions with her, I will review documents (e.g. house sale agreements) in a timely manner, but that's about it.
Now, to be fair (and R2C is probably thinking this) - I failed to heed advice from here, especially early on. I wanted to show what a good husband I was (and would be) by doing her laundry, giving her the holidays she wanted. And folks on this board said "you'll get nothing in return, she's vilified you." They were right. W was not happy that I didn't help with the divorce but I genuinely feel that she respects me now more than when she dropped the bomb, and probably more than she has in years. For what it's worth, I didn't even get a thank you for doing her laundry/picking up/etc./etc. So, learn from my mistakes as much as you can.
Finally, someone mentioned that this was due to you looking at porn and how your wife's response seems extreme. I have to agree - you should validate her emotions about this but the reality is that this betrayal is relatively light. What condition could your relationship have been in that this nudge would push it over the edge? I think that you need to look beyond the porn to understand the causes. Without a solid understanding of those getting back into an R w/ W will lead you to the same conclusion (and it is likely that an R with someone else may hit the same challenges - I suspect communication is an issue here).
As always, best of luck - I'm rooting for you.
She doesn't want to be in the house alone. She has been for 3 months and hates it. It's a big house.
So she wants it sold asap (I hate the fact that our house that we put so much effort in to is going - I hate that she's just casting it aside and not really seemingly thinking aabout what it represents).
So she's asked me to "get the ball rolling." She is also scared the house price value will plummet after Brexit (31 October).
I have done stuff around the house (mow the lawn, washing, cleaning etc.) and she does always thank me for it afterwads, usually a little text.
She was quite a fragile emotional person even though she puts on a 'front' of a real extrovert, life and soul of the party. I think she REALLY needs IC but she is adamant that she doesn't ("I've got my family and friends. I'll be fine."). Stubborn like I said before. She was also lovely and hilarious and was great for me.
She hates porn in any form, and says that me being on these sites and commenting in a vulgar manner on some of the models etc means that I hate women and don't value our marriage and prefer them to her. Weirdly although she has a bit of a potty mouth and jokes about sex all the time, she is quite a prude really. Possibly due to a staunch Christian upbringing and even now my W and her sister have talked about feeling 'guilty' about sex. The family aren't religious at all now. But it clearly has had effects on them.
I'm trying to be pleasant and helpful. She has thanked me for organising the estate agents. I really don't want to as I adore our house. It is such a waste to throw it all away. It was the summation of our 8 years together. Now it'll be a memory.
I went to London with my best friend today. Had a lovely time with him (mate from school, known each other 25 years), and I was distracted for most of the day.
Did you know she hated porn in any form before this happened?
Did you know she hated porn in any form before this happened?
Only several years after my addiction was in full swing.
There were times when Iwas 'tired' of the addictin, thinking, "why am i still doing this?"
That's when I should've got help. I was too proud to seek therapy and thought I could do it alone.
Hi Dan
Haven't got much time as rushing out to work so forgive if I come across blunt.
To her you look weak. Not the porn in itself, but the addiction. Now you're falling over yourself to be nice and helpful even if it goes against what you want. It looks weak.
Be really honest with yourself; what is the motivation for the helpfulness? Perhaps part guilt, part it'll win her back.
She's still in angry and knee jerk stage. She doesn't remember the good, just the deceit and betrayal.
You don't really understand or acknowledge her viewpoint. If you did you wouldn't have judged her as being a prude.
Nobody here is advising you to be a b****rd. You've got a fine line to walk. But take it from someone who has been in a much worse position in many ways; I looked for remorse and a sign from my husband that he was strong and prepared to roll up his sleeves and fight for the marriage. Helping me divorce / separate would not have done that. Instead he ran away and looked oh so weak. His continued weakness in the face of adversity was what ended our marriage.
Final point; if this house means so much to you, why are you going along with selling it and why aren't you living there?
She admits herself she is a prude. She's done this several times, in front of friends too.
She simply wants to not live in the house. I'm not there because she doesn't want me there.
I have been fighting; I keep telling her that we could perhaps just be separated and I work through my therapy and then we try. If a divorce happens after that, I'd at least understand. She even told me in June "I won't make any major decisions until you've got through your therapy." Then she changed her mind. When I picked her up on this she just said "Yeah. That was then. I've changed my mind now."
I am and have been remorseful. I want to help her as I hate seeing her look helpless and struggling.
I understand that she feels neglected and betrayed, and that she says the "whole relationship had an undercurrent of lies." I kept this addiction from her because of shame and I didn't have the bravery to seek help, either professionally or from her/my friends/my family.
She keeps saying how sad the whole situation is. She doesn't want it to happen and "wishes things were different". I want to show her I'm being strong and have a desire to save the marriage. I think she's so adamant that I can't change her mind she just isn't listening.
Also, when we're angry we rewrite history and everything that you ever did was wrong, immoral, insensitive etc etc
Yes I have experienced this. She once all of a sudden said "we don't have much in common." And I really took exception to that. She then texted an apology saying "I'm sorry if I say things out of anger, I don't mean them."
She only needs to glance back once and see a strong, together man who obviously has remorse for it to sow a seed of doubt in her mind about what she wants in the future.
I'm really hoping this happens. I am striving to be a better man and am achieving this slowly. The fact that I've not been on any adult sites since May is also increasing my confidence.
Well when it rains it pours it seems...
She is going on holiday tomorrow with 2 friends for a week to Portugal.
She texted me this morning saying that she fell on her shoulder, went to A & E and has sprained the ligaments so has her arm in a sling and can't move it much.
I replied saying that I was really sorry to hear that, it sounds painful, and asked if was there anything I could do to help as I'm worried for her.
I really want to pick her up and fix things.
Update - She said she'll be fine. Asked me to do a bit of hoovering and dusting before the estate agent comes round on Saturday.
I don't want the divorce but she has made this decision and I have to be seen to accept it. She knows I don't want it.
This is all moving too fast. I don't like it.
How do you hope your W will respond to this letter?
I am hoping she will thank me for it and be pleased that I have acknowledged and described how she felt so hurt. So far all that's happened is she's described how she's felt, and I've apologised and said that I regret it all and that I want to make things work. All 'don'ts' I realise, but I did it anyway as I wasn't aware of any sites like this one etc.
She has even said "I believe you can change." I'm somewhat insulted then that she's chosen to get a divorce.
I did not have emotional affairs with the 2 women. It was some dirty talk and some pictures. The only non-sexual thing was one of the women said something about her dog dying and I said I was sorry to hear that. But my W beleives that I'd "formed a relationship" with them.
I see them as emotional affairs. Sexting is cheating. You were walking down the path to a physical affair.
Porn....hhmmm. Not the end of the world to watch porn IMO, although it has been shown to be incredibly unhealthy for all people involved. You definitely crossed the line by paying for pics.
As for the home sale, why are you lining everything up on this? Doesn't your W want out? Let her do that work and have plans when she asks you to be there to meet the estate agent.
I have to show her the new me
It's going to take a long time before you are the new you. You are still a work in progress. Trust me, big changes take time. The best thing you can do is stay focused and humble.
She hates porn in any form, and says that me being on these sites and commenting in a vulgar manner on some of the models etc means that I hate women and don't value our marriage and prefer them to her.
I can see how she could feel that way, can you? Learn to validate these types of feelings she is having.
Quit fighting her on just trying separation. I don't think it's working, do you? She may be getting advice to end things, but you can't worry about it. It won't do a thing but hurt you. So let it go. I know you want to fix things and you know how to and you can fix them right now...but you can't. So let it go. She says lots of conflicting things, right? It's because she is emotionally hurt and has ups and downs. So let it go. Now go work on being strong and attractive.
Thanks for your reply ovrrnbw.
I've been asked to check the house is tidy for when the estate agents come round on Saturday morning.
Yes I definitely crossed the line re the addiction. The thing is, I think about it now and am *completely* turned off by the very idea of going on those sites now. This is making it much easier to stay off them! It's actually not even entered my head for ages now.
When I went to see her at our house lastSaturday she asked "How's therapy going?" and I said really well. She then said "No relapses then?" and I proudly said "None at all. It's really helped." She went silent.
I do appreciate big changes take time. I am hopeful that she will see them eventually. I'm just going to keep moving forward.
Yes she is up and down - that's how she is normally lol! Lots of mood swings.
I'm working on being stronger. I've bought new clothes, got a haircut recently, catching up on my hobbies/interests, reading.
I have ordered the Divorce Remedy book just now.
Did you know she hated porn in any form before this happened?
Only several years after my addiction was in full swing.
There were times when Iwas 'tired' of the addictin, thinking, "why am i still doing this?"
That's when I should've got help. I was too proud to seek therapy and thought I could do it alone.
OK. People have all kinds of ethical views on porn, I have my own views, but my follow-up point was that porn really becomes problematic in a relationship when the 2 partners have diverging views about it.
Had you known your W had a huge problem with porn, and you kept viewing it in secret, even if you thought it was completely harmless and valid, I would say there is something else to explore there. Sounds like this was not the case...
How do you hope your W will respond to this letter?
I am hoping she will thank me for it and be pleased that I have acknowledged and described how she felt so hurt. So far all that's happened is she's described how she's felt, and I've apologised and said that I regret it all and that I want to make things work. All 'don'ts' I realise, but I did it anyway as I wasn't aware of any sites like this one etc.
She has even said "I believe you can change." I'm somewhat insulted then that she's chosen to get a divorce.
OK you fell for my trap =D
You are hoping for a particular response. This never goes well. Letting go of expectations for your MR also includes becoming outcome-independent. What I mean is... you do nothing with an expectation that you will receive a particular outcome.
I can guarantee you she will not respond to the letter in a way you hoped for. It will be a gut punch.
I can go on and on about the pitfalls of letters.
I wrote letters like this, pretty much exactly how your letter went, and it had zero impact. In fact it had negative impact. You've apologized enough -- and frankly apologies are not going to fix things. I know it's hard to let go of this one - she may even spew at you later "You never wrote me an apology letter" - do NOT fall for it.
I'm going to press you a little harder on something, and I hope you don't take it as some sort of a judgmental attitude, because it's not. Your W is giving you a gift - she may never trust you or accept you back. This is the time in your life to pull yourself together and address all of your baggage. I'm not saying take her at her word for all your flaws, but also don't dismiss everything as "just an issue with the porn."
There are two levels to addressing your issues. One way is the surface way. Stop with the porn. Go to IC. OK. You are doing this. You could move on with your life.
The second way is deeper. Can you connect this to underlying issues, maybe from your childhood? Can you really feel it deep down and understand how you absolutely have to change, not for your W, but for your own happiness. Can you get to a point where you can have 2 coexisting and conflicting thoughts in your head:
1. My W may have overblown her accusations.
2. I have issues which drove my behavior, and if I don't address them at their core, I will be leaving happiness on the table.
When you make deep and lasting change, it becomes evident to other people. It may become evident to your W. Through consistent actions and integrity, you will have opportunities to earn back her trust. There is no guarantee this will happen. But it will be 10000 times more effective than a letter.
This stuff is a mess. You have to balance a lot of questions. You want to take your W's input seriously, and not minimize it, but also stand firmly with your core values. This is not easy.
She simply wants to not live in the house. I'm not there because she doesn't want me there....I want to show her I'm being strong and have a desire to save the marriage.
A strong man standing for his marriage will move back into the house and the master bedroom.
I think she's so adamant that I can't change her mind she just isn't listening.
It is not about your words...it is about your actions.
Yes my therapist and I have discussed this. I've mentioned it a bit further up the thread - it's to do with a fear of failure, low tolerance for whne things go wrong, however small; poor self-esteem; poor body image; not feeling masculine enough.
I am addressing these things with tasks my therapist is setting me. They're working. This in turn is increasing my confidence slowly but surely, and I've not looked at porn for 3 months.
She simply wants to not live in the house. I'm not there because she doesn't want me there....I want to show her I'm being strong and have a desire to save the marriage.
A strong man standing for his marriage will move back into the house and the master bedroom.
I think she's so adamant that I can't change her mind she just isn't listening.
It is not about your words...it is about your actions.
The issue is she simply doesn't want me in the house. I want to fight, but she's just not interested in reconciling.
A strong man standing for his marriage will move back into the house and the master bedroom.
I want to show her I'm being strong and have a desire to save the marriage. The issue is she simply doesn't want me in the house. I want to fight, but..
It's unclear how facilitating separation, the selling of the house, and divorce sends that message. You know, as compared to the typical DB line "It's not what I want, but I won't stand in your way."
I have said it's not what I want.
I suggested that we stay separated maybe whilst I@m in therapy and we keep in touch and try to make things work over several months.
Her response - "I don't want to spend a year checking up on you. I'd keep thinking you'd be lying or keeping something from me. I'm young. I can find someone else."
The issue is she simply doesn't want me in the house. I want to fight, but she's just not interested in reconciling.
She is testing you. You are failing the test.
What do you want? What is the right thing to do?
Do not fear control you. Face your fear.
I think you may be missing some things Dan, and I understand that b/c I often have to read a few times before fully absorbing.
"I don't want to spend a year checking up on you. I'd keep thinking you'd be lying or keeping something from me. I'm young. I can find someone else."
Respect her, hear her, validate her. I can see why she would think that. Hopefully you can too. Those are her feelings at the moment. Validate them.
She obviously still has feelings for you but you keep playing off of those to pressure her into making a firm and lasting decision. Take the pressure off, validate her feelings when she shares them, and give her the time and space she needs. And stop doing things to facilitate the divorce IMO.
Argh - what a mess!!!
What do I do now? She's paid for the divorce papers. They will arrive in the post at my door soon.
She's away for a week on holiday from tomorrow.
I really don't want this to be happening. I want her to see that I'm working on becoming trustworthy. I'm floundering here.
Yes my therapist and I have discussed this. I've mentioned it a bit further up the thread - it's to do with a fear of failure, low tolerance for whne things go wrong, however small; poor self-esteem; poor body image; not feeling masculine enough.
I am addressing these things with tasks my therapist is setting me. They're working. This in turn is increasing my confidence slowly but surely, and I've not looked at porn for 3 months.
This is great stuff and I'm glad to hear your therapist is helping you identify a plan of action. Some therapists can get stuck in "mirror" mode.
If it hasn't been suggested here yet, I suggest in addition to the DR book you check out No More Mr Nice Guy (NMMNG for short). I can't recommend both books strongly enough.
Unchein, just ordered NMMNG on Audible.
Yes my therapist is excellent. She says I'm making very good progress and I've 'immersed' myself in the therapy.
Update/Journal
I texted her tonight saying (a) hope her shoudler is feeling better and (b) hope she has a nice holiday.
I wanted to say "miss you" but didn't. That was hard.
She simply replied saying she will be fine, then asked me to hoover the house and empty the bins when she's gone!
I just replied "Yes I can do that." - is this ok validating?
I know she is being influenced by her sister and friends. I just hate that she's decided this in 3 months, ready to give up 8 years together and our beautiful house, and to willingly put herself in a really awkward position from a work point of view too.
(a) hope her shoudler is feeling better and (b) hope she has a nice holiday.
She simply replied saying she will be fine, then asked me to hoover the house and empty the bins when she's gone!
I just replied "Yes I can do that." - is this ok validating?
Validation.. means that when your partner tells you about their day, or shares their feelings, you stay with them in the moment, honoring their experience. ... It's a way of showing you understand and accept their thoughts and feelings just as they are.
Hi Dan,
Validation isn't about doing what your partner wants, it's about showing you understand them. Helping prepare the house for the real estate agent isn't validation, but is sensible if you want to sell the house.
That's a lovely little film. I enjoyed that.
My wife is the fox, and I want to be the bear.
I don't want the divorce at all. But I don't want to stand in her way. I will co-operate but it is hard to know what I should and shouldn't do as I'm scared it looks like I too don't want to save what we have.
She's left for her week in Portugal today.
I texted her tonight saying (a) hope her shoudler is feeling better and (b) hope she has a nice holiday.
I wanted to say "miss you" but didn't. That was hard.
She simply replied saying she will be fine, then asked me to hoover the house and empty the bins when she's gone!
I just replied "Yes I can do that." - is this ok validating?
OK well first of all, I get that you want to help her because of her hurt shoulder so go ahead and clean up her place but man, let that be the end of it. She isn't even giving you the friend-zone, she's giving you the housekeeper-zone. You absolutely, positively do not want to be her housekeeper. She already has no respect for you, do you think mopping and vacuuming and scrubbing her floors and taking out her trash are going to help her gain respect for you and see you as an alpha male?
Second I think you misunderstand what validation is. You might want to go back to the links Cadet sent you originally and read them again. Validation is seeking out someone's feelings and acknowledging and accepting them.
VALIDATION:
"I don't want to talk about it."
"You sound angry, is that how you feel?"
"No, I'm frustrated with you because of XYZ."
"Oh I can understand why that would frustrate you, I'm sorry you feel frustrated. Thank you for talking about it, I will work on being better about XYZ."
NOT validation:
"Clean my house."
"OK!"
Guys I am LOST. This is why I'm doing all this. I am confused, panicking, and flailing about.
I just don't know what I'm supposed to do. I've only been married 3 years and now I've put myself and my dear W in this mess.
I want her to stop being so stubborn, and take a step back so she can see how much she is willing to simply chuck away, without even wanting to try to make things work.
Yes, I absolutely am aware of the hurt I've caused her. I'm nto denying it wasn't a serious issue. I have betrayed her trust. I regret it completely and am taking steps to overcome my problems.
The NMMNG book is great. Listening to it on Audible whilst I'm at work (on Lunch now).
I don't want this divorce. I want to try. She's given up. She doesn't want to let me show her what I've done so far to improve myself. The frustrating thing is that already I know I've improved. But she is kind of resigned. She is willingly putting herself in a financially unstable position for the next few years, and I want to be there to support her. I know she doesn't trust me but it's so tricky as we've been so close up til this point.
Dan, like most of us your enemy early on is your lack of patience. You have got to find patience within yourself and embrace it. This situation is not going to resolve in a few days or weeks or probably even months. Realistically you're looking at a year or more of hard work. So roll up your sleeves and get to it. Drop the expectations.
She's given up, yes. For NOW. In a few months or a year she could very well change her mind. Happens all the time.
I've decided not to send the letter.
But it felt good to write down how I felt. It's just on my computer. I want to try and memorise parts of it so that if we do end up getting into a discussion, I will be able to use some of what I've put in it to validate how she feels about everything.
We have both said how sad we are at the situation. (I hear an Elton John song in the background subtly there!).
I am being impatient, I realise that. If she does rethink and consider a R, I guess that will need to happen after divorce/house sale/split of assets/loss of some money. Just don't know how she can stand by and instigate this and wipe the slate clean in just 3 months. It feels too sudden.
Putting my musician's hat on - where romanticising everything and anything is the norm - she will be on holiday and miss me and reconsider. But we're not in a movie.
I am not going to text her at all whilst she is on holiday unless she contacts me. Right thing to do?
Our sex life was up and down really. At the beginning it was fantastic. In the last couple of years or so less frequent. My W has a few illnesses and also often feels tired, so sometimes I would be in the mood for intimacy but then she'd say "I feel really tired" so I backed off. But then I wouldn't instigate anything for weeks, because she wasn't giving anything back either. She felt like she was "doing all the work". I just think it was lack fo communication; she didn't tell me there was a problem, and my male brain thought, "Oh she hasn't brought up a problem, so there can't be an issue."
Hi Dan, have these illnesses been identified/diagnosed by her doctor?
When you would approach her for sex, and she would tell you how tired she felt..........would you immediately leave her side and engage in the porn? Did you feel she was giving an excuse to not have sex?
But then I wouldn't instigate anything for weeks, because she wasn't giving anything back either. She felt like she was "doing all the work".
When you weren't instigating anything for weeks.........you were watching porn, right? You say it was b/c she wasn't give anything back "either". Please elaborate what you mean.
Do you know what she meant by "she was doing all the work"?
She hates porn in any form, and says that me being on these sites and commenting in a vulgar manner on some of the models etc means that I hate women and don't value our marriage and prefer them to her. Weirdly although she has a bit of a potty mouth and jokes about sex all the time, she is quite a prude really. Possibly due to a staunch Christian upbringing and even now my W and her sister have talked about feeling 'guilty' about sex. The family aren't religious at all now. But it clearly has had effects on them.
How soon did you discover your W was prudish? And by that, are we talking about trying something new........or just traditional sex, period.
You were "with" her for five years before tying the knot. Did you live together, or just having sex before M? Did she feel guilty about having sex before marriage?
Whether or not the family was very religious at that time, female pre-teens and teenagers can be taught by well-meaning parents that "good girls" do not engage in sex before M. It doesn't bother some girls, but others are guilty ridden if they have sex before M. I believe another taboo in the past (at least for girls) was looking at nude magazines, and of course, watching porn.
Going back to the old days, my mother told me that boys didn't marry girls who had sex with them before marriage. They would not bring
those girls to meet his family, etc., b/c he would want a "good girl" for wife material. So, my preparation before actually dating, was learning that girls were divided into two categories........good or bad. I was told by older girls that when the boy takes a girl on a date, he will test her to see if she was a good girl or a bad girl. So, most of my dating experience was spent watching the boy's hands.
I think some parents missed the mark in teaching moral or religious virtue. The parents wanted to keep their daughters sexually "pure" until marriage. Many parents taught that pregnancy outside of marriage was the ultimate shame a girl could bring her parents. I was told by some young girls that their parents implied that engaging in sex destroys the girl's
value and is, therefore, judged accordingly by others (b/c people talk and her reputation is ruined).
Society seems to have a much less rigid view these days. However, I think there are still a few ill-equipped mothers out there (or maybe fathers, too) trying to have that "talk" with their daughter, hoping to instill high standards/principles regarding everything that has to do with sex. I don't think parents or society has hit the right chord yet. Anyway.........I apologize for rambling.
She discovered in May 2019 that I have been using p**n sites since the start of our relationship. I started using the sites before I met her, around 2008. This progressed from looking, to signing up to a few free sites, to communicating with other users, to uploading things myself, to commenting on other user's material, to messaging/emailing 2 women from one of those sites. I paid them about £60 GBP to receive some photos from them. It then escalated to me sending some pics of my exes (normal, clothed) to one of the women, and also I sent a photo of her sister to one of the women and she commented on her in a vulgar way.
Why do you have pictures of your ex's, and what was the point of sending pictures of your SIL and ex's to women in porn? Were you making fun of your SIL & ex's? Do you feel that sending the photos were inappropriate?
The addiction stems from lack of self-esteem, fear of failure, low stress tolerance, fear of intimacy etc.
Okay, it's good that you can understand why you turned to porn, but you also need to grasp (as best you can) the affect it has on a wife to discover her H has been using porn. Since men & women are wired differently, it's safe to say she's not going to be able to set it over in some separate category as if it was not a factor in the MR. It will do no good to tell her it had nothing to do with her. I'm sorry she asked for so many gory details, b/c that will be very hard to erase from her brain.
I don't know how beautiful and sexy your W may be. IMHO, the average woman feels there is no way she can compete or measure up to a porn actress. Just as the average husband feels he cannot be like the hero lover in his W's romance novels.
Here's the thing, Dan, it went from some sex fantasy to being personal when you made contact with one of those women who engage in porn. I think your W may have over-reacted by sharing too much with her family too quickly, then again, I might have done the same thing, IDK. She was obviously very hurt, and whether you saw it as cheating.......your W did, apparently.
I encourage you to continue IC and improving yourself. Give your W the time and space she wants. Even if it comes to D, you may get back together once she has time to deal with this issue. I hope you will respond and answer my questions.
Post often, and continue reading.
Thank you sandi for a comprehensive response.
Ok I'll go through the points you raise.
Hi Dan, have these illnesses been identified/diagnosed by her doctor?
When you would approach her for sex, and she would tell you how tired she felt..........would you immediately leave her side and engage in the porn? Did you feel she was giving an excuse to not have sex?"
Yes. She initially had certain food allergies. Due to incompetent doctors they prescribed her useless medications. She eventually got a few proper tests done and that identified a few things. She adjusted her diet. She had had these problems from before we met. She seems better now, but still has a few reactions to certain foods.
Also she had a few skin conditions or other intermittent health things. I think it was because she constantly overworked herself. She'd often stay in her study working for hours and not eat or drink.
If she was tired, I wouldn't immediately leave and watch porn no. I tended to do it when (a) she was out or (b) was in her study working and I knew she wouldn't leave for half an hour or so. However, I did do it when she was in the house, even when we were on the sofas downstairs - e.g. I had my iPad and she was on the other sofa. I would message one of the women. Just for the buzz of doing it. Not because I missed those women or preferred to be speaking to them than my W. It was merely the act of sending them a message secretly that gave me a buzz. I never even saw their faces.
When you weren't instigating anything for weeks.........you were watching porn, right? You say it was b/c she wasn't give anything back "either". Please elaborate what you mean.
Do you know what she meant by "she was doing all the work"?
Yes, she was always feeling like she wanted to instigate. I was watching porn frequently - not every day, but often - and despite me knowing that we hadn't been intimate for weeks, she wasn't bringing it up. Additionally, she admitted that she stopped instigating because she wanted to see if I would do it myself.
How soon did you discover your W was prudish? And by that, are we talking about trying something new........or just traditional sex, period.
It was a few years into the relationship. She never mentioned this when we met. She is only interested in traditional sex. Without getting into too much unnecessary detail on this forum, let's just say nothing "adventurous". I am similar really - the porn I would look at was not 'extreme' or 'outrageous' in any way certainly.
You were "with" her for five years before tying the knot. Did you live together, or just having sex before M? Did she feel guilty about having sex before marriage?
She was not a virgin when we met. I was. I lost my virginity to her at age 27. Think she was 19/20 when she lost hers.
We were having sex before M. We got together end of 2010/start of 2011, and began living together as bf/gf from January 2012. We moved in 2013, then bought our first house in 2016.
Why do you have pictures of your ex's, and what was the point of sending pictures of your SIL and ex's to women in porn? Were you making fun of your SIL & ex's? Do you feel that sending the photos were inappropriate?
I was in a message chat with one of the women. They asked about my exes. I talked about them. She then asked if I had any pics of them. I remembered that I had some on a CD in my room. I had this CD from before I met my wife. I simply kept a few pics of my exes on there (clothed, innocent ones, but they still look nice in them). I think at the time of the breakup with each of those exes, I thought I might want to reminisce about them. In actual fact what happened was I put six photos on a CD and forgot about it.
That CD ended up in a box of my other writable CDs/DVDs with my work on them, and it just followed me round when I was in a relationship with my W. In all honesty I had completely forgotten about it. I do not hold torches for my exes at all. I have no 'left over love' for them. When the woman in the chat asked me about the pics, I thought "I wonder if I have that CD still?" I found it and sent them to the woman. It's a chat with a "non-downloadable" feature so she wasn't able to save/share them further; they could only be viewed by her. She commented on their bodies etc.
Same with my SIL. My therapist has said that the addiction means you want to keep seeking a more heightened 'buzz'; i.e. your used to simply looking at the sites, so you go further to contact women, then you chat with them, then share pics of people you know. It's the addiction escalating. Doing something more to get the next buzz.
I did say some derogatory things about my exes and SIL. Again this was to get a reaction from the woman in the chat; she enjoyed talking about my exes and said they were hot etc. I don't actually have feelings for my SIL (I've said before in my first post, I find her really irritating and never really liked her. I tolerate her), nor do I have feelings for my exes. I enjoyed reading the woman's comments on them. They didn't really comment on my SIL, just my exes. I wonder if my putting the pic of SIL up was to get my own back for her not being kind to my W a few times or being bossy etc. How immature. I look back at it now and am horrified at what I did.
My W saw ALL OF THIS.
I know that it was inappropriate. I just found myself in a situation where the addiction was escalating and blurring fantasy and reality. That was the buzz I was seeking at that time. However, I know that was WAY too far.
To be honest, there were times in the last year or so when I was feeling TIRED of the addiction. Thinking, "I should really stop this." But it had a hold of me and couldn't reach out for help, mainly due to pride. I thought I could deal with it alone, without professional help, or help from W or family or friends.
I don't know how beautiful and sexy your W may be. IMHO, the average woman feels there is no way she can compete or measure up to a porn actress. Just as the average husband feels he cannot be like the hero lover in his W's romance novels.
My W is gorgeous. I'm not just saying that as I'm married to her. Her hair isn't quite 100% red, nor is it strawberry blonde, it's a unique in-between colour that I've never seen before. Her face is lovely, very beautiful. Pale skin, not too short, lovely body, very sexy, lovely smile, and I loved her laugh. She has always thought she was unattractive. UI never understood why, as lots of guys would check her out - she never noticed!
This is the thing - I always felt unattractive too. I'm not very muscle-y for example. Even my W would jokingly say "You have the body of a 19 year old!" even when I was in my 30s. It'd upset me when a well-built guy would appear on TV and my W would say something like "ooh he's nice. I like a nice torso!" and I'd feel really awful and that I'd let her down. I KNOW - I should have just started going to the gym, but being stuck in the addiction phase meant I just accepted that I'm not that attractive etc. and just tried to be a nice guy instead for her.
I was always kind to my W. She even said this to me after she discovered all this "You are not a bad person" she has said several times. "You've been so kind to me." I would support her in her work/businesses and help round the house and do things for her to make her life easier. I wasn't lazy.
Here's the thing, Dan, it went from some sex fantasy to being personal when you made contact with one of those women who engage in porn. I think your W may have over-reacted by sharing too much with her family too quickly, then again, I might have done the same thing, IDK. She was obviously very hurt, and whether you saw it as cheating.......your W did, apparently.
Yes I understand this completely. The 2 women I contacted were simply random members of the public who did this "on the side". Yes I'm annoyed at my W for over-sharing everything with her family and some of her friends. To most she is simply saying I cheated and not going into detail.
I encourage you to continue IC and improving yourself. Give your W the time and space she wants. Even if it comes to D, you may get back together once she has time to deal with this issue. I hope you will respond and answer my questions.
I am giving her space. I am only contacting her if she contacts me.
Thank you for taking the time to analyse what I've said.
I do recognise that to outsiders reading this, it is shocking. I am ashamed of what I have done and to have hurt my W in this way.
I hate that I did it and never got help.
But, I am getting help now and it's WORKING. I have had no desire to look at any such sites for 3 months now and that is really helping me stay positive. I'm just getting into a state now where it doesn't even enter my head as a "well I could look, one little peek won't hurt anyone." I simply don't think about it.
Instead I read, catch up on my hobby (I write music and play), I talk to my mates on facebook or text (don't worry, I've hidden my W's profile!), exercise, go for walks, watch TV, help my sister walk her dog, etc.
I do recognise that to outsiders reading this, it is shocking. I am ashamed of what I have done and to have hurt my W in this way.
Dan,
It is not all that shocking. Don't beat yourself up, that mindset can limit your personal growth.
You mention feeling ashamed. Once you dig into NMMNG you will understand why I say what comes next. There is a fundamental difference between feeling shame, regret, and remorse. Those 3 are different emotions.
Shame: "I am fundamentally bad." -> very hard to make personal progress in this mindset
Regret: "I really wish I didn't do that."
Remorse: "I really wish I didn't do that, because I recognize how much I hurt that other person and the pain they must feel."
The most difficult aspect of remorse is empathizing with the other person's version of reality when you don't agree with it.
I hate that I did it and never got help.
Fair enough, but you will need to get over the self-loathing stage. I think you are taking some good steps now.
One of the key steps in forgiveness is first forgiving yourself. I hope you reach that point eventually. It will take time and hard work.
But, I am getting help now and it's WORKING. I have had no desire to look at any such sites for 3 months now and that is really helping me stay positive. I'm just getting into a state now where it doesn't even enter my head as a "well I could look, one little peek won't hurt anyone." I simply don't think about it.
Instead I read, catch up on my hobby (I write music and play), I talk to my mates on facebook or text (don't worry, I've hidden my W's profile!), exercise, go for walks, watch TV, help my sister walk her dog, etc.
I sense you feel we are giving you a hard time.
You've made some great progress and I applaud you for it.
I also feel like you are trying to convince us that you have changed, and now it is just a matter of earning back your W's trust. There is a hint of defensiveness in your posts, and some of the responses you are getting are pointing this out (as well as some concern that you are minimizing the impact to your W).
I'm not saying this to be hard on you, I'm just calling it as I see it. Many of us post here because we feel a duty to help others in the same way we have been helped before, and I know I take this seriously. This is not a frivolous hobby for me. I also understand I don't know you, or the nuances of your situation, so you can take anything posted here for what it's worth in that regard.
You've made some great progress, and I urge you to keep digging deeper and understand there is more work to be done. And in the process of doing that work, you will simultaneously:
1. Become a happier, healthier man.
2. Increase your chances of earning back your W's trust.
Being more patient with the process is a really hard step, but a necessary one.
Thanks Unchien.
I'm loving NMMNG - I'm not exactly like everything the author describes but a good number of features ring true certainly. Definitely the whole trying to please, and keeping secret anything that deviates from the outward 'nice guy' persona.
I do apologise if I'm coming across defensive. Like I said before, not liking failure! I do understand that it won't be a quick fix.
My W feels really hurt, and I miss her, I still ove her very much, I don't hate her at all, I rarely got annoyed with her in the 8 years we were together actually.
Yes of course she had her annoying quirks that she'd do round the house or certan things she'd say, but they were very minor.
I am remorseful of my actions. The shame has gone now I think - that was what was fuelling the addiction (act out, feel guilt, go back to normal life, when next alone feel shame, act out to remove that feeling of shame, and so on).
I understnad how hurt she is - she basically thought I was a certan type of guy, but then discovered I was cocnealing something. She even said "if you had got help or sorted it out, I'd have never known, and everything would be fine." I felt so stupid! Anyway - remorseful is where I feel I'm at.
I do appreciate everyone who's commented on here. It's been a great source of advice and a soundboard.
I do apologise if I'm coming across defensive. Like I said before, not liking failure! I do understand that it won't be a quick fix.
Stop apologizing!! That is your Nice Guy persona talking!!
Think of the forum as tough love. If we didn't care, we'd sugar-coat things.
Journal
Had a nice day yesterday. Saw my sister and her husband and the dog. Had a drink in a pub on the way home with them. They said I was looking well and seem positive. That helped.
I woke up feeling angry with my W this morning. How quickly she's decided to end things. How I know she hasn't decided this on her own; she's been pushed by others. But I didn't dwell on that for more than a couple of minutes.
I turned my thoughts to something else. I got up earlier than usual, did 20mins exercise then went to work early.
I found out I passed one of my accountancy exams yesterday too. I just have to wait for 1 more result then I get some letters after my name.
I feel a little lighter this week. It's tough of course; I'm not downplaying how much my marriage meant to me. She is still so important to me. But at the same time, I'm doing my thing and getting on. I've not found myself wallowing in a dark room crying myself to sleep every night. I honestly thought I would be there. But I'm not.
I've decided that I will not text her at all whilst she is on holiday.
Good, that all sounds spot-on. The anger, it's natural. Sounds like you've got healthy ways to process it so keep that up. The bad moments like that will become fewer over time and the good ones more numerous. Recovering from this is a slow process so be patient!
I'm usually very patient generally - it's my W who is the impatient impulsive one!
I am loving the No More Mr Nice Guy book. I've nearly finished it already.
I don't like how she is going all gung-ho on this, and I think she's thinking she can't turn back now as she would have told lots of people about what she's decided to do and doesn't want to appear weak. In reality I can't prove that and I don't want to ask her. I will simply carry on doing my thing and just keep moving forward.
I am finding it hard to not text her - I find myself looking at my phone every hour or so in case she's contacted me. I know, I know, I should stop that straight away. So I've taken my phone off my desk and stuck it in my bag so I can't see it.
She is still on my mind, but I'm not sure what the exact emotion is that I'm feeling. It's a weird mixture - love, loss, anger, frustration, remorse, affection. It's all churned up.
Just finished No More Mr Nice Guy.
Fantastic read. Please get it if you haven't yet.
The characteristics I relate to are:
- Hiding mistakes
- Trying to be different to other men who are more outwardly masculine
- Avoiding conflict
- Avoiding intense discussions about relationships, feelings etc.
- 'Clamming up' during serious conversations, afraid of saying something that others might disagree with
- Seeking approval - pointing out things I've done when the person I've done them for could easily find out themselves.
- Sacrifice personal power - often others would joke that my W 'was in charge' in the relationship
It is eye-opening to see this. Also it's massively saddening that I didn't become aware of this book when I met my wife in 2010!
I have work to do for sure, but I've started it and it's going well.
Dan -
It's even better on the second and third times through.
Don't beat yourself about not finding the book earlier. I actually did find it two years ago, when we were in the midst of a dead bedroom. I felt the impact of the words. The lessons sunk in, but not deep enough.
Hi Dan,
What are your plans/goals for the weekend?
Dan -
It's even better on the second and third times through.
Don't beat yourself about not finding the book earlier. I actually did find it two years ago, when we were in the midst of a dead bedroom. I felt the impact of the words. The lessons sunk in, but not deep enough.
Yes i want to actually relisten to it straightaway!
My therapist recently asked me to go through a list of my significant achievements over the last few years - I realise that I have downplayed them all and actually I should be proud of myself to a degree.
If you have hurt your dear S, remember also that you are not useless or worthless.
Journal
Went to the house today as I needed to pick up some post (parcels). Two estate agents came round to value the house too.
They both commented on what a lovely house it was. That made the whole thing worse!
I didn't enjoy them being there, nice as they were. It was horrible actually.
I then did a few things, watered the plants outside, and watched some TV and then some Family Guy on catch-up. Then I left for my parents' house.
I texted my W this evening to say she could put the alarm back on remotely. She asked how it went:
Me - "They valued it at £x. Said it was in fantastic condition. It wasn't nice hearing them talking about selling it though. I then just had some time ot myself in the house, watched some TV, then came back to my parents."
W - "OK, more than we thought. I know, it's not nice thinking about it. I still feel complicated about losing the house. Thanks for doing all that though. Enjoy the sunshine."
Haven't texted back.
[In the UK it's 32 degrees this weekend. My W is on holiday in Portugal where it's the same temperature.]
Already started re-listening to No More Mr Nice Guy.
So glad I didn't cancel my Audible subscription!
This is weird - I've realised I haven't thought about W for roughly 36-48 hours. Is that normal?
I feel guilty for that. I do still love her but this is a strange feeling.
Went to the house today as I needed to pick up some post (parcels). Two estate agents came round to value the house too.
They both commented on what a lovely house it was. That made the whole thing worse!
Yep, that's a tough one. Seeing the sign in my yard was a kick to my stomach. Then seeing the ads on social media made it worse. I can say that it gets better and it may be fairly quick. Like stubbing your toe, it hurts a lot and then you almost forget about it 5 min later. Having said that, it's painful, and I'm sorry to hear that you are hurting.
[quote=Dan35]
I texted my W this evening to say she could put the alarm back on remotely. She asked how it went:
Me - "They valued it at £x. Said it was in fantastic condition. It wasn't nice hearing them talking about selling it though. I then just had some time ot myself in the house, watched some TV, then came back to my parents."
W - "OK, more than we thought. I know, it's not nice thinking about it. I still feel complicated about losing the house. Thanks for doing all that though. Enjoy the sunshine."
/quote]
I've got to ask, why the extra info? How about this:
Me - "They valued it at £x.
Said it was in fantastic condition. It wasn't nice hearing them talking about selling it though. I then just had some time ot myself in the house, watched some TV, then came back to my parents."
W - "OK, more than we thought. I know, it's not nice thinking about it. I still feel complicated about losing the house. Thanks for doing all that though. Enjoy the sunshine."
(and then no reply)
I don't recall if you are in IC but the feelings you should save for them and/or trusted friends. That's not your W anymore, she's fired you. Stick with the facts with her, manage your personal matters with real friends, and go out of your way to help your real friends (i.e. those who haven't fired you). This detachment is good for both of you - you become more self-sufficient, build other relationships, and it's good for her, she's getting the space she needs.
Hi crdcheck
Thanks for your input.
Yes I'm in IC. Had a bit of a break as my therapist is on holiday. A lot has happened since my last session on 25 July!
I'm not sure why I put the extra info in. I thought she might be checking in on me using our alarm camera. She has done that before whilst she was up at her sister's house (She told me). I wanted to just let her know that I was in the house a bit longer. I didn't want to just leave after the estate agents left. I wanted to spend some time in my house so just sat in the lounge reading DR and watching TV.
It's very hard. The whole thing is so rubbish.
Journal
Just went for an evening walk with my mum (it's 8pm here in UK).
My parents have both been supportive. They have said they're sad and shocked of course but haven't disowned me for what I've done to my W, and are giving words of encouragement.
My mind did wander during the walk and I thought about my W and some of the memories I have of her. Nothing specific, just snapshot memories I have of us laughing ourselves silly, or her just smiling at me because she was happy. I felt a little sad, but then I was able to change the subject and spoke ot my mum about my accounting exams.
My sister and her husband also have been brilliant.
It's so important to surround yourself with family and friends at times like this.
Haven't had a text from W since Saturday re the house.
She's still abroad. She comes back tomorrow (Thursday).
Should I text her to say hope she has a safe journey back?
Hi Dan, no I wouldn’t text her at all. My XW went for her month long adventure holiday and I think she’s flying back now. One text from me the whole month as an FYI as our son was sick but getting better. Cheers DS
Good on you too for mastering your thought patterns about your wife. I wish i had your ability. It’s getting better for me, but I still have ruminating thoughts. I block thoughts of when we were happy because these still cause me pain. I’ve relied on willpower as I find the thought pattern lessons hard to get a grip on. Willpower is exhausting though. Can I ask your method?
Hi DS, thanks for your response.
So even though we aren't in the midst of D, just separated at the mo (although W has paid for D forms), don't text her at all?
This is what I find hard. I would constantly contact my W during the day, and she'd text me regularly when she was at work too. When she went away with friends, she'd often message me well into the early hours. One of the things I'm missing.
For thought patterns, I simply try to distract myself. I find myself thinking about something - it might just be a picture in my mind of my W smiling at me, or a nice memory we had together or an in-joke. I let myself have the thought - I don't hate my W at all. I hate the way she has reacted in such a small space of time, even though it is my problem/fault. But I know that i'm sorting myself out. I have hurt her, but I am remorseful. I'm fixing myself which is the most important thing.
Then after a minute I think: "what else makes me happy?" I think about my fave films, bands, listen to Spotify for an hour or so, watch some funny YouTube vids (I'm getting a bit obsessed with Hell's Kitchen and Kitchen Nightmares videos lately - they're so oddly compelling!). This makes me smile - laughter is really good in these situations - and then I feel ok again and can get on with my day a bit better.
Does that help?
Thanks Dan that helps mate. I think my struggle is I’m still foolishly trying to work out what went wrong and why my sitch happened.
Yes I wouldn’t text. That’s pressure potentially. Wait till she texts you. It’s part of the mantra in letting her go to get her back.I know it’s hard mate. I went from multiple multiple texts per day to basically zero, unless it was my XW asking me to do something.
Yes I have read about let her go to get her back. It was one of the most difficult things.
Reminds me of Red's monologue at the end of The Shawshank Redemption - "some birds aren't meant to be caged. Their feathers are just too bright. And when they fly away, the part of you that knows it was a sin to lock them up does rejoice. Still, the place you live in is that much more drab and empty that they're gone."
That's basically how I feel about my W. She is a very brightly coloured bird, a force of nature indeed. The house is empty without her; the house itself feels sad without both of us in it.
It will be natural to doubt yourself during the "let her go" thing. I have kept the pressure off recently certainly. It's been hard. She's injured herself physically recently (had a fall in the house and hurt her shoulder) so I'm of course worried about that. It feels uncaring not texting her about that.
I know what went wrong - listening to No More Mr Nice Guy really hit home why I'd been acting the way I have.
My IC is really useful too - should be resuming that next month when my therapist gets back from holiday.
Just find help from all angles. That really assisted me in pushing forward with GAL.
After work, got into my parents' house and there was a letter for me.
It was the divorce petition.
Really hit me hard.
Not sure if it's different for US users, but in the UK the person requesting the filing must 'apply' online. THey have to give a broad reason (in this case "unreasonable behaivour") and then give 4-5 paragraphs of why.
So my wife described my porn addiction in detail and what I'd done. It was horrible. I cried as she laid out in cold typed words what I'd done. I felt sick.
I then hated myself. I had a brief thought of committing suicide (mainly as if I did, my W would get the life insurance money and could pay off the mortgage). But then I immediately snapped out of it - I thought of my parents, my sister, my friends.
I have 7 days to respond by entering an online code saying I agree with the divorce.
Horrible end to an otherwise ok day.
Very sorry Dan, that does sound like a gut punch. I don't think your W was being vindictive, but rather just following the letter of the law. Here in the US typically the reason given is just "irreconcilable differences" and no further explanation is needed. Most states here are "no fault" when it comes to D, which means the courts don't even consider whose "fault" it might be, they are strictly interested in equitable splitting of marital assets. The reason for this is the courts used to get very bogged down in "he said she said". So for example, a man might file saying his wife had an affair, but then she counters that he was emotionally unavailable which pushed her into the affair, then he would argue back that he was unavailable because she quit having sex and back and forth it would go. The courts would get overwhelmed trying to sort it all out, so now most of them just don't. Anyway stay strong, getting served is a 2nd BD for sure but it all gets better from here I promise.
Thanks.
It's so hard. I keep fantasising about a text appearing on my phone from my W which says "I've been thinking. I think I've over-reacted. Can we talk?"
Yes she isn't being vindictive at all. It just is what you have to do in the UK.
These 7 days will be very hard. I might wait until the last day. I just want some time to think about it. This is worse than the email I got saying she wanted to start D proceedings in the first place. And yes that email did say ILYBINILWY.
She also said it in person when I turned up at the house the day after she sent it.
I remind myself - don't believe everything they do or say - but after receiving that letter, that is very tricky now.
I have 7 days to respond by entering an online code saying I agree with the divorce.
The legal system is all about making agreements. Do you have the option not to agree to the divorce? You made agreements when you got married, most likely forsaking all others. Was part of the agreement not watching porn?
I guess my point is you have a choice.
Yes I could 'contest' the divorce. But then we have to pay fees and neither of us can afford that.
In the UK you can do all of this without speaking to lawyers. You don't even have to go to court. It's all done for you.
I hate that this is happening. I know it's my fault. But I hate the nagging thought that my W's manipulative sister and her friends have just fed her the 'leave him' line for 3 months and that's all she's been hearing so she feels obliged to do it. Awful situation.
Hi Dan
You're right. You'd have to be a loon to defend a petition based on unreasonable behaviour. Lol my H is a loon; he said he would defend a petition on unreasonable behaviour but would admit to adultery; but he is a Lawyer! To be fair, we have a fault divorce system, you have to prove irreconcilable differences; adultery, behaviour or separation. There is a threshold to get over but they are pretty much rubber stamped by the judge. They barely read them. They figure that if the petitioner went to the trouble of filling it in, then they don't want to be in the marriage.
It hurts I'm sure, but it's not going to be passed round the court staff for a good bit of reading with the morning coffee. Now, the other thing to bear in mind is that due to job losses there is a massive backlog in the courts. My petition was served beginning of august and responded to by H in time. They haven't finished processing July's receipts yet.
The point is; it's not all over. It has to be processed, the nisi has to be issued and then it has to wait 6 weeks and 1 day for the absolute (thanks to the influence that the church has over our legal system) IF you have sorted the financial matters. if you haven't then don't proceed to absolute is the usual advice.
When that absolute is issued. It's still not over. There's no time limit on mind changing. The only limit is if you have both decided to move on. In the time that the Divorce process has gifted you there is time for her to realise that others may be writing her story for her.
Yes I could 'contest' the divorce. But then we have to pay fees and neither of us can afford that.
In the UK you can do all of this without speaking to lawyers. You don't even have to go to court. It's all done for you.
I hate that this is happening. I know it's my fault. But I hate the nagging thought that my W's manipulative sister and her friends have just fed her the 'leave him' line for 3 months and that's all she's been hearing so she feels obliged to do it. Awful situation.
Hi Dan
I'm sorry to hear about recent developments. One thing I learned pretty early is that the piece of paper that is the divorce order means nothing, relatively speaking, other than the upset it causes. What really matters is that it was precipitated when you lost your wife's heart. In my view, it is the heart of your wife you need to win back - that is the key.
Ask yourself - would it be a baby step to winning her heart back if you accepted her choice to divorce, or would it be a baby step to her heart if you resisted?
Ask yourself - would it be a baby step to winning her heart back if you accepted her choice to divorce, or would it be a baby step to her heart if you resisted?
Oooh that's a tough one!
I don't know.
One hand - if I accepted her choice, that means I'm not getting in her way and possibly shows I'm thinking about her feelings first. Downside: I don't care enough to fight.
Other hand - I resist (even thoug hwe have both agreed not to fight and keep everythign amicable) and she sees I'm fighting. Downside: she can see it as being deliberately obstructive, just to be petty or whatever.
Wow--so she goes away on holiday, you're dying to text her or see a text from her, and what you find on the day she gets back is a divorce petition citing Unreasonable Behavior.
In July she suddenly didn't contact me for 3 weeks. She wouldn't respond to any texts at all
Any idea what caused this transition from hanging out, sex, and texting daily to zero response? Your story's baffling in how quickly it turned from what you describe as a happy marriage (May) to divorce (August).
I don't know if you can win her back, but one of the below sounds more compelling. I hope you get your second shot. After 8yrs of you say a good marriage, her giving up over this is surprising.
One hand - if I accepted her choice, that means I'm not getting in her way and possibly shows I'm thinking about her feelings first. Downside: I don't care enough to fight.
"I love you, so I'm letting you go. I have not given up hope on you coming home."
Other hand - I resist (even thoug hwe have both agreed not to fight and keep everythign amicable) and she sees I'm fighting. Downside: she can see it as being deliberately obstructive, just to be petty or whatever.
"I love you, so I'm keeping you! You have to try harder if you want to get away from me."
Dan
What does fighting or resisting look like to you? If you mean contesting the Divorce, don't do it. It will cost you thousands in legal fees and you will still lose. Once she tells a judge that your previous porn addiction makes living with you untenable, he will grant the Divorce. You've caused aggro and it'll strengthen her belief that she's right.
Most of us here think that your marital problems were not insurmountable and that she may be overreacting BUT that is her right. It may seem unfair and she may have been influenced by others, but that is her choice to say enough is enough.
I know we chewed your ear off for being weak and helping her with the house etc. There is a vast world of difference between helping her divorce you and being obstructive and resisting. You can be pleasant and amicable without helping her out with this.
I cannot see that you have much choice here. You are not in a position to take aversive action and force anything. IF you get the opportunity then you can say that you think the M is worth saving. Otherwise you have to stand strong, be pleasant but not a push over and wait for an opportunity. It may never come, but then again it might.
Yes. I won't contest the form at all.
Your story's baffling in how quickly it turned from what you describe as a happy marriage (May) to divorce (August).
Yes. This is what is on my mind a lot. We were happy. She went from distraught (mid-May, on discovery) to anger (end of May), to calm and much more positive (June), to suddenly "I need space" (July) to "it's over" (end of July).
It's the speed of all this that I do not like. In 3 months she's decided to say goodbye to the last 8 years of her life. It is frustrating.
On the petition, she said that "he declined marriage counselling." I have NO recollection of her suggesting counselling. At all. If she did, I've forgotten it as it owuld have been a fleeting mention, not a lengthy discussion about it.
But as Yorkie says, I don't have much of a choice. Neither of us has the money to contest/fight the divorce.
"I love you, so I'm letting you go. I have not given up hope on you coming home."
I like this. I might send it to her after responding to the form.
Whatever this opportunity is, I hope it does come soon.
She's texted me this morning to ask "Did the estate agents get back to you?"
She is RUSHING!
She said "We should go with someone reasonable so they can sell the house quickly and make it painless. We have no chain so that's something."
I replied: "I hate the thought of some scummy family living in the nest [our word for the house]. Not looking after the garden or keeping the bathrooms up to scratch."
She said "Yes I know what you mean. I won't miss how hot it is though."
[It's such a well insulated house that it is VERY hot in the summer, even with windows open!]
I want to reply with this:
"I will miss a lot about it. The location. The kites and dragonflies swooping by. The bees in the garden. The The walks near the river and the curious cows in the fields nearby. The garage. The herbs we grow for cooking. The space. The little animal figurines we placed among the plants. The nice evenings we had with friends. The safe feeling I get when I walk into our bedroom. Being able to walk into town to get literally anything. Having the alarm. The knowledge of coming back after a trip away to a comforting evening of cop dramas on Netflix and chocolate. The fact we ended up with such a wonderful nest that we had never dreamed of getting. The extent that we put our stamp on it in 3 years."
Advice? Is this deemed 'pursuing'?
Advice? Is this deemed 'pursuing'?
Yes.
(see how I answered your question. This is how you want to answer her questions.)
This is almost as good:
"Yes. it is pursuing."
Do you have Divorce Remedy? Read the Last Resort Technique. It goes into greater depth, mainly telling you what pursuit is because the LBS dreams up 1,000 ways of pursuit lol.
LRT is:
1. Stop pursuing.
2. GAL
3. Wait and see.
She said "We should go with someone reasonable so they can sell the house quickly and make it painless. We have no chain so that's something."
I replied: "I hate the thought of some scummy family living in the nest [our word for the house]. Not looking after the garden or keeping the bathrooms up to scratch."
H:"W, When you have identified two that you like, get me their contact info and I will pick one."
I haven't sent it everyone. I've deleted the draft! It felt nice to write it out though.
She is coming back from holiday today. She'll be alone in the house tonight again and also tomorrow. Then she's going away again Saturday to Monday with a work thing.
I had to go to the house yesterday to sort out the smoke alarms (they were going off at 11pm and I was 40 miles away at my parents' house!). Once I'd sorted it, didn't get home til 1.30am.
She is pushing me to chase estate agents.
She also texted me this morning saying the "divorce application has been approved, so you'll get something in the post soon." I haven't told her that they arrived yesterday evening.
The letter says "respond within 7 days" but I called and the customer service person said "it's 30 days really. Nothing happens if you don't respond within 7 days. Only if you wait longer than a month will you need to pay additional fees."
I'm not going to text if she gets home safely. I will only respond if she texts first. I'm doing this more now. I'm only texting first if I have to get into the house (only she can access the alarm remotely now, and I no longer have a smart phone).
Urgh - this is so hard! If I went back to my 2018 self and were to tell them that this would happen a year later, they'd have laughed in my face!!