Old ThreadHi All, I'm not happy to be here but I'm happy that everyone here exists because it does help.
Quick Recap:
Dec 9/18 wife drops ILYBINILWY bomb. Says she wants to run from responsibilities and has been emotionally numb for 3 years (when her dad was first diagnosed with cancer)
Dec/Jan - behaviour was crazy. Going out and staying out late with work friends (group of 4 guys) on Friday nights. Super attached to phone. Didn't buy any gifts for me or our son for Christmas.
Feb 1/19 she moves out renting a condo
Late March - Her Dad passes away after battling lung and brain cancer
April/May, half of June - spends most nights back in our house. She'd go back to her condo 1x or 2x each week for some "space".
We never had any problems except our sex life had become a little stale. Married for 4 years with a 2.5 year old boy.
One other note: She did get a new job when she was done maternity leave - she basically 4x'd her other income from before.
Current Situation:
Early July she said she needed more separation as being around the house more wasn't changing anything. I initiated the conversation. I told her if she wants to do that then no more staying over here and no more family outings.
This past Sunday I initiated more conversation as I've just been tired of all of this crap and I felt like she was just stringing me along. I told her that I loved her and have always supported her. I was willing to do counselling or whatever else it would take to work on our marriage.
She said: "I'm just not feeling anything. I thought I would miss you more if I moved out but I've realized I'm happier on my own. I don't feel like putting the effort in and I don't think it will change".
Me: "So are you telling me you would sign divorce papers right now if they were in front of you?"
Her: (cries) "I don't know , blah blah blah"
I then brought up a separation agreement. Currently I'm still paying for everything for our son and all the house expenses. I also have my son with me at our house every night. I take him to school and pick him up every day except Wednesday nights. I had to rearrange my whole business in order to look after our son (thrilled to do that) but that has cost me about 50% of my normal income.
So I brought up the finances and mentioned shed probably be paying about $2,000/month in child support and she got pissed and said: "that's not going to make me love you any more" (manipulative).
We also discussed arrangements for my son. I said he would stay with me and she can continue to pick him up on Wednesdays and she could see him Saturday from 8am until dinner time. She was fine with that.
We kind of left the conversation at we'd talk to out lawyers and figure out the financial side. I'm seeing my lawyer this Thursday.
Any thoughts/advice?
I'm still open to working on our marriage but I also need to move forward with my life as I dont' want to feel like a Plan B. She's given me no indication that she wants to be with me.
Thanks all.
I think I've been way too soft leading up to this but my thought was that the patience I was showing was also strength. Keep the waters calm and give her time to figure out her feelings.
She has said she's been depressed at some level since high school. At one point this past couple months she mentioned maybe she was bi-polar because she was saying things that she wasn't feeling or hadn't been feeling. She's waiting on an appointment with a psychiatrist (apparently may take 4-6 months). I'm pretty sure she had some post-partum depression and then in December she found out her dad had brain cancer and 3 months to live. My point being she's had a lot going on so I was patient thinking that we/she would be able to sort through these things.
I need to show more strength and have her realize that she WILL lose me. Or maybe I've already lost her anyways. Not sure why I keep holding on.
Jac, I am so sorry that you are going through this. Unfortunately, you are not alone. I am not sure I have any answers for you, but I am also of the mind that loving patience shows strength. I cannot detach. Everyone here says that I need to, but I am struggling with it. So instead, I just give loving patience. I really try not to pursue or pressure. I fail at this too many times for my own good. But when I stop all pursuit and pressure and just engage in loving patience, I do see my situation improve. I pray that your wife and mine come back to us.
jac - You are sacrificing a lot of your time and money for this situation. You have been very patient (I'm new here since you last posted, so just read a bit of your sitch).
Also being new here, take my advice for what it's worth.
Your W literally told you she does not want to put in effort, and doesn't think it would change. At this point, I think a separation agreement makes sense given your sacrifices. It also shows her she cannot just come and go as she please, and expect you to sacrifice on your end so she can make 4x income on her side. It shows strength, while leaving open the door a crack.
I'm basing this off one post, but you went through a lot in a single conversation. It sounds like money is a huge trigger for your W - not saying you should avoid the topic, but I would leave it to 3rd parties to work out rather than state what you think she should pay you. She will feel manipulated and controlled no matter how fair or accurate your number is. I know in my state all the calculations are just guidelines and ultimately if 2 parties can work out a fair number the judge will sign off 99% of the time.
It sounds like the timeshare arrangement with your son was less emotional for her. I would consider documenting your agreement (or at least keeping a journal record to yourself of what you agreed to). She may decide she wants more time when she consults a lawyer and realizes the impact to support payments.
Lawyers are going to make this more annoying, but at the same time, I think these things work out best if both parties feel like they were not railroaded into an agreement they later regret.
Also... if she's willing to wait 4-6 months to get psych help, that shows she is not serious. I'm appalled by this. Is she only looking at psych's who are covered by insurance? (I'm not suggesting you ask her this, but maybe you already know). In my area, almost none of the psych's take insurance, but I can get reimbursed 70% on the back-end by handling the paperwork by myself and submitting to insurance. She can also call around and when people are booked out ask them for referrals. There are TONS of ways to get help. Maybe her employer has an assistance program (EAP?) where they provide a few sessions for free - AND help with locating available doctors.
I don't know if her getting mental health treatment is a condition for you. I only want to point out that she seems to be paying it lip service only.
Unchien - thanks for your reply. Yes, I do feel like I have sacrificed a lot but that's what you do for your family and your loved ones right? I worry that by showing some strength she will take that as a I sign that I'm done. Am I done? No. I'm leaving the door open a crack but doing what I can to move forward on my own with my son.
You are 100% right about the money being a trigger. I will leave that up to the L's and my hope is that I can propose something to her that is fair. I don't want the full payments as I don't need it all but I want to make sure I'm keeping the house so my son has a good place to grow up and my investments (90k). Yes, I'll leave the discussions to the L's.
I don't know why she's waiting to get psych help. My gut says she just doesn't want to deal with difficult things. Easier for her right now to just do what she wants and have fun. For a registered Psychiatrist the timelines are long, which is unfortunate. Her work also has an assistance program if needed and a couple months ago she said she would look into it. She said she was bi-polar possibly and definitely has dealt with some depression since high school (but she says "who hasn't").
It's so hard to understand why she doesn't want to fight for our child. I mean to spend more time with him. How can I respect that? Why would I want to be with someone that won't fight for her family?
It's not easy.
Tonight - came home and she was looking after our son (wednesdays). I asked her if she thought about our chat from Sunday and she said "no, not really". I asked her if she's contacted a lawyer: "no, not yet. Have you?". I told her I have a meeting tomorrow morning and that my lawyer will want to know who is representing her so we can get a separation agreement done. She said: "ok, I better get on that then". She then left. She also wasn't wearing her wedding band. I'm keeping mine on so she knows the door is open a crack and this is her decision. Should I take it off?
Destroyed: Thanks for the input. I'm hoping for the best but expecting the worst.
Unchien - thanks for your reply. Yes, I do feel like I have sacrificed a lot but that's what you do for your family and your loved ones right? I worry that by showing some strength she will take that as a I sign that I'm done. Am I done? No. I'm leaving the door open a crack but doing what I can to move forward on my own with my son.
I think you are making the right move. If she cannot handle you standing up for yourself, your MR is doomed to failure anyhow. You would not be happy always sacrificing.
I used to watch the show Intervention a lot with my wife, and what you wrote above sounds a lot like the family members enabling addicts.
I don't know why she's waiting to get psych help. My gut says she just doesn't want to deal with difficult things. Easier for her right now to just do what she wants and have fun. For a registered Psychiatrist the timelines are long, which is unfortunate. Her work also has an assistance program if needed and a couple months ago she said she would look into it. She said she was bi-polar possibly and definitely has dealt with some depression since high school (but she says "who hasn't").
I call BS. She could call her EAP and locate help within a week. How do I know this? Because I have called my EAP (for MC) and I live in an area where timelines are long, and what do you know they have a selection of 5 people I can choose from, available within a day.
It's so hard to understand why she doesn't want to fight for our child. I mean to spend more time with him. How can I respect that? Why would I want to be with someone that won't fight for her family?
Yeah, that part struck me from your first post, I didn't say anything because I didn't know how you felt. I work FT and my W is a SAHM for now, and I fought for more time than your W is getting. This sounds like a pretty strong difference in values, something to think about as well.
Tonight - came home and she was looking after our son (wednesdays). I asked her if she thought about our chat from Sunday and she said "no, not really". I asked her if she's contacted a lawyer: "no, not yet. Have you?". I told her I have a meeting tomorrow morning and that my lawyer will want to know who is representing her so we can get a separation agreement done. She said: "ok, I better get on that then". She then left. She also wasn't wearing her wedding band. I'm keeping mine on so she knows the door is open a crack and this is her decision. Should I take it off?
Sounds like she drags her feet on everything involving your sitch...
I just had a wedding band thing this week myself. Rings are symbols, and they can be signals too. My only advice is don't make your decision in response to your W. Do what you want to do. If you feel like you want to keep it on as a symbol of your commitment, keep it on. If you're not feeling it, take it off.
You didn't file for divorce... she knows the door is open.
Thanks for the responses Unchien. It's much appreciated and you give me things to think about.
I sometimes think that she'll snap out of this fog. I've read it on here enough that a flip can switch and it's like they didn't even know who they were. This is 9 months in now which isn't really that long but I think I should stop believing that it will happen with her.
And to be clear...I have full confidence that I would meet someone else and take what I've learned in this to have an even better relationship. But...I do love me wife and if the old one came back I'd try to rebuild the marriage.
I feel exactly the same way as you do. I'm confident in myself in finding a future partner, but would prefer building a new MR with my W. I think only you can decide how long to hold out, it is a very personal decision.
I can't remember where I heard this, but some comedian said all therapists should just have one piece of advice: "Snap out of it!" Here you are, sitting, waiting for your W to snap out of it. With no signs that she is going to.
Anyways, I fully support the move to a more formal separation to protect yourself. It will also give your W a more accurate picture of what D'd life will look like. It may feel like a step away from R, I would look at it as a step towards your future, whatever that holds. From what you posted she has not shown signs of change.
Don't judge yourself on time either. Some people never find this forum because they get fed up and move on quickly. Others will wait years and years. I've said in my sitch: I thought pre-BD Limbo lasted 3 months, but on further reflection I realize we had been slipping into limbo for about 2-3 years. It's probably true for most sitches here.
I saw my L today to go over what's likely to happen.
She'd be paying approx $4500/month in child and spousal support but I'm hoping to keep the house and my investments instead of getting spousal support. Just because she makes good money doesn't mean I need it all. I just want financial stability and a decent house to grow up in for my son.
I'm hoping that when she sees her L and sees the figure close to that number I'll be able to offer less/month in return for keeping the house and my investments and she may see that as a fair compromise. Then hopefully it stays a little more amicable for my kids sake. The lawyer also mentioned that when she sees the numbers it may be a bit of a wake up call to her that fantasy land could be over.
I've decided to keep my ring on for now - my dad mentioned it might still show her that I'm committed to this marriage in the event she is going back and forth. It may help her to speak up and initiate a convo. However, I'm not really banking on that happening. Part of me also just feels like until we actually divorce I'm still married. No PA or EA has been confirmed (yet) so I'm still thinking she's struggling mentally whether she fully realizes it or not.
That said, she's being cold again like she was in December/January but this time she's not texting me or sending me things on instagram. Maybe she believes it's over now. I can't worry about all the ups and downs - I need to stay neutral.
A couple of things.
First: "The lawyer also mentioned that when she sees the numbers it may be a bit of a wake up call to her that fantasy land could be over." So let me ask you a question, are you okay with that? Do you want her to stay with you because it is cheaper to stay with you than to leave you? Lots of LBSs have fallen into this trap. That would be a temporary bandage on a gaping wound. If she doesn't stay for the right reason then you are setting yourself up for BD #2.
Second: "It may help her to speak up and initiate a convo." This is manipulation. Wear your ring for you. (I advocate wearing your ring until the D is final because YOU are still married until then.) But don't do it because she may notice and say something. Most WASs see right through that kind of thing.
Third: I know you think there is no EA and PA. However, very few people walkaway from a marriage for any other reason than another person. It is sad to say but I look at your sitch, I've seen this before. I also was told something when my WW was looking at moving out: Women don't need their own place to find themselves or work on the marriage. They need their own place to sleep with other people. Also along these lines, you say she got a job making 4x what she used to make. Can you tell us a little about your career? I assume she is college educated based on her earnings, are you? Is she the breadwinner in the house?
I initiated the conversation. I told her if she wants to do that then no more staying over here and no more family outings.
Good! Now stick to your guns on this! Don't let her cake-eat.
This past Sunday I initiated more conversation as I've just been tired of all of this crap and I felt like she was just stringing me along. I told her that I loved her and have always supported her. I was willing to do counselling or whatever else it would take to work on our marriage.
She said: "I'm just not feeling anything. I thought I would miss you more if I moved out but I've realized I'm happier on my own. I don't feel like putting the effort in and I don't think it will change".
This is why we say not to temp check, because you always get this kind of wishy-washy response from a WAS. That is a reflection of how she feels at this moment in time, and even though she is speaking in absolutes her feelings towards you can and probably will change down the road.
So I brought up the finances and mentioned shed probably be paying about $2,000/month in child support and she got pissed and said: "that's not going to make me love you any more" (manipulative).
Reality checks are usually not welcomed by the WAS. You probably won't get any financial relief voluntarily from her, you will have to pursue it legally.
Give her no quarter on this. You've had to hamstring your business to take over her half of the parenting duties. Your income is suffering because of it. Don't compromise on what you are due from her in the hopes that it will placate her (it won't). She's going to HATE paying you ANYTHING whether it's 100 a month or 10,000.
I'm still open to working on our marriage but I also need to move forward with my life as I dont' want to feel like a Plan B. She's given me no indication that she wants to be with me.
She doesn't right now and probably won't for quite some time. Do what you need to do to protect yourself and provide for S. What happens later is unknown, you may very well reconcile but until that happens you've got to get your life in order without her.
Steve85:
1) No, I don't want her back if it's just because of the money. My thinking is that right now she seems out to lunch and hasn't really been hit with any reality check or sense of loss when it comes to me or our family. I've been very patient with her. I've read many times that eventually the loss hits the WAS and it can get them to actually think of what they are doing.
2) I'm wearing the ring since I feel it's the right thing to do but I do always look for a way to get a response from her and I need to stop that. I find that to be the hardest thing - becoming detached to this woman I married and had a good life with. I want her to know I care about her and am willing to work on our marriage and myself. I think I need to understand that I don't need to show her that anymore. She knows it already. I need to move on and focus on myself and my son.
3) I'm about 50/50 on the PA/EA. I totally understand what you are saying and at times I've been 90% certain that there is someone else involved. But then she moved back in for 2 months and was spending weekends here with me or watching our son. Just didn't seem like there was any time for her to be with someone else. Since she left 3 weeks ago I've come to think that there likely is someone else but I've had no proof of anything. Listen, it wouldn't surprise me at this point. Often I'll just assume that's what she's doing and it allows me to move on a bit easier. Mostly I'm just resentful that she seems to have decided she doesn't want to be an active mom to her son.
I'm a golf pro. I ran a good business making a good living and I've had to cut that in half since April so I could be around full time for my son when he's not in daycare. I'll build it back up but in the meantime I do need her to help out financially. I used to pay ALL of our bills/daycare/groceries and still put some away in investments. She had it pretty easy from that standpoint.
Thanks for your time!
AS - thanks for taking the time.
I hope you're right but I understand that I need to move forward and protect myself and more importantly my son.
In a way I feel lucky that she doesn't want to spend her time with him. I'd be crushed if I only saw him half the time. She mentioned a few weeks back that she wasn't emotionally ready to look after our son for an extended period of time so he'd stay with me.
She was a great mother before all of this and that makes me think there is some depression/mental disorder of some sorts going on. Losing her father certainly wouldn't help that either.
I'll keep my head up as I need to make sure I'm there for my son. I know in the end no matter what things will be ok.
Steve85 - sorry, we are both college graduates. I was the breadwinner up until last year when she went back to work and got this job. She went from 50k to 200k. I would float around 75k-80k.
Guys I'm in need of some advice:
I'm ready to admit to myself that my wife has been having and has had an affair over the past 6 months. I don't have any concrete proof but lots has happened to suggest otherwise. Biggest one being getting her own place.
I've been reading an ebook on women's infidelity and it kind of explains what my wife has been going through. 31 years old - hormonal changes occurring and entering her sexual prime at a time when our marriage is past the honeymoon phase. She's wondering why she's not interested in sex with her husband (honeymoon phase has ended) and is seeking that feeling in general. She probably was feeling this for awhile leading up to her dads brain cancer diagnosis which may have pushed her over the edge and she finally acted on her feelings.
During this time I've been a complete pushover and essentially have enabled this behaviour. She's riding on the high of getting caught, the new experience, and whatever else. She feels confused because she knows Id' be a great life partner but she's feeling more intense feelings during her affair. So she distances herself further from our family to relieve her of the guilt. For now.
Anyways - the author suggests that the only way to have any chance is to confront her and take away the excitement of the affair. Only then will she "maybe" come to her senses and realize the effects of what she's done.
I plan to talk to her about this tonight. Here is a basic script I will say in a non threatening tone:
"W. It's come to my attention that you have had an affair and are currently having an affair. While this certainly upsets me I think it's important for you to know that I don't think this makes you a bad person and I don't think this defines you as a person. I will be able to forgive you if you are willing to be open and discuss this as two mature adults who care about each other. If there is any chance of us deepening our connection and moving forward then we will have to do this together. If we can get through this I will give you my 100% best effort and will not make you feel guilty for your past. "
Then we'll see if she has a response.
Either way I will have to move forward with a separation agreement. I will move forward with that this week and set that boundary. Let her know that yes I'm willing to walk away from this - I'm not afraid of losing her.
Thoughts?
jac12 - I am not an expert on WWs so don't take my advice as strong as what the vets here say:
1. Actions, not words. Ditch the script (or shorten it up). All of the "I will give you my effort, I will be able to forgive you" stuff - drop it. It won't register with her, words will just fly over her head. Wordiness implies weakness at a time you are trying to show strength. It muddies up the message.
"I am proceeding with S agreement because it has come to my attention you are having an A. When you are ready to work on the MR, let me know."
Don't use my words as a script, I'm just giving you an alternative to think about.
2. I also suggest you limit the time you spend trying to understand her behavior (although I know it can be helpful to some degree).
I am in complete agreement about setting hard boundaries.
I'm ready to admit to myself that my wife has been having and has had an affair over the past 6 months. I don't have any concrete proof but lots has happened to suggest otherwise. Biggest one being getting her own place.
Anyways - the author suggests that the only way to have any chance is to confront her and take away the excitement of the affair. Only then will she "maybe" come to her senses and realize the effects of what she's done.
Jac, you said you have no proof there's been an affair. The two of you are currently living in separate houses, right? Therefore, confronting her about an affair that, at best, is only suspicion.......plus the fact she has already left the marital home, is going to make you look like a nutcase. This is not going to shake her up!
"W. It's come to my attention that you have had an affair and are currently having an affair. What has come to your attention, other than she moved out of the marital home? Do you have intell from some source? While this certainly upsets me I think it's important for you to know that I don't think this makes you a bad person and I don't think this defines you as a person. No, don't say this, b/c it just sounds too much like the nice-guy stuff. I will be able to forgive you if you are willing to be open and discuss this as two mature adults who care about each other. BIG MISTAKE......and it's more nice-guy stuff. If there is any chance of us deepening our connection and moving forward then we will have to do this together. Emotional pressure. You don't get it. She doesn't want you or the MR right now. If we can get through this I will give you my 100% best effort and will not make you feel guilty for your past. She KNOWS you'd take her back, and give it your best effort........but that's not tempting, exciting, or even interesting enough to change her mind. To her, it's not about what you think, feel, do, or say. It's all about her. "
I plan to talk to her about this tonight.
Please don't. Even if she went back home, it would be a matter of time before she left again.
Thanks guys, I appreciate the feedback.
The evidence is certainly circumstantial but here's a few tidbits:
1) moving out to her own place seems to be a pretty clear indicator
2) spending money on botox, other surgeries, makeup and hair like crazy trying to look younger
3) Her behaviour when this all first started was nuts: out until 3am with the guys every friday for 8 weeks straight. Not answering or responding to my calls/texts asking if she's ok. She has an apple watch so there should be no excuse for not getting my calls. She called back once and said she was at the bar but it was dead silent in the background.
4) Hiding her phone or putting it face down around her.
5) Bra or underwear in her purse
6) One night we were out for Sister in laws bday and she said she needed to go to the bathroom. She took awhile so I went to go see what she was up to (this was the height of crazy time) and she was standing in the middle of the floor texting someone. When I walked up to her she looked guilty of something and kissed me right away (she hadn't initiated a kiss in a month).
7) on her bday she was late to meet me and even when she got there she walked across the street to meet me but I couldn't see her at the corner. It took her like 30 seconds to finally get from the corner to the restaurant when it should take 3 seconds. It just felt like she was wrapping up a text with someone and didn't want me to see.
There are other things too but putting everything together any vets on here would also suggest she's had an affair. So how can I confront her about it so it's no longer a secret? If part of her is worried that she won't be able to move forward with me with all the guilt then it's destined to be final no matter what. What's wrong with her knowing that I don't agree with it but I think we can get past it if she chooses to open up and work on things?
I'm just trying to get a better understanding of human behaviour and I'm open to the idea that she may not even fully understand why she's doing these things. Humans are complex and I know she's had a lot going on. Didn't Michelle also say that women are more likely to have affairs after losing their fathers? I said something like this to her back in December when we were talking and her response was : "that's interesting, hmmm".
It's possible to work through an affair but part of me does think that a lot of women would think it's just easier to walk away and start fresh even though they may not really want that. The guilt is too much to bear when facing your own family.
I feel stuck. I want to move forward either on my own or with her but I'm tired of being in limbo.
Quick Question:
My wife just asked if she could have another day with our son this week after work. We had previously agreed on Wednesday's after work and Saturdays 8am-dinner.
This past Saturday she chose to do something else rather than spend the day with her son.
How do I respond?
jac12 - Is a PA a deal-breaker for you? For some (like me) it is, for other it is not.
Although I agree the circumstantial evidence does not look great, I don't think you have hard evidence and hence a confrontation may turn sideways for you.
Are you wanting the S agreement because of your PA suspicions?
I would say it's not a deal breaker for me. I'm open to understanding her reasons and working through them. I do feel like she's had a lot going on in her life that would make her unhappy and she's likely seeking happiness from easy places.
I want the S agreement because financially I need her help and she's been unwilling to contribute. I guess I also hope that some tough realizations may break her out of her fog. There are consequences to her behaviour.
I ended up telling W that she was free to come see our S on Monday. I will come back in time for his bedtime routine but otherwise I'm going to give them some space to connect and have some fun.
Thanks to Sandi, I won't chat with my wife tonight about her possible affair. What's the point in the end? If she is going to turn things around and come back she'll need to realize that on her own. I've been nothing but supportive and patient to this point and she knows I'm willing to work through our challenges. In order to show strength I'm just going to go on with my life.
I'll stay positive as best I can and keep interactions pleasant.
I will also be seeing my lawyer tomorrow to get the S agreement drawn up and sent later this week. She'll be pissed I think but if she says anything what's the best response? This was her choice and I need to make sure our son is looked after?
I ended up telling W that she was free to come see our S on Monday. I will come back in time for his bedtime routine but otherwise I'm going to give them some space to connect and have some fun.
Good for you, clearly you thought about your W's request and decided to accommodate. I think it's healthy to demonstrate you are not digging your heels in on everything, and also that you recognize the importance of the relationship between your W and S. That is good modeling.
Thanks to Sandi, I won't chat with my wife tonight about her possible affair. What's the point in the end? If she is going to turn things around and come back she'll need to realize that on her own. I've been nothing but supportive and patient to this point and she knows I'm willing to work through our challenges. In order to show strength I'm just going to go on with my life.
I'll stay positive as best I can and keep interactions pleasant.
Did you end up chatting?
I will also be seeing my lawyer tomorrow to get the S agreement drawn up and sent later this week. She'll be pissed I think but if she says anything what's the best response? This was her choice and I need to make sure our son is looked after?
The S agreement is your choice, not hers.
I know what the vets will say... if she says anything, just listen, validate, etc. No need to explain or justify.
I completely understand the impulse to provide some reason. Part of the problem with doing this is the conversation can quickly go off script. If you were to say "I need this to make sure our son is looked after," your W may want to change the timeshare arrangements with your S. Are you okay with this? Especially if her motivation appears financial? She may accuse you of having purely financial motives for caring for your S.
I'm only suggesting that mixing the financial piece with caring for your son is likely to heighten emotions and trigger both of you. This is one of the reasons to just listen, validate, etc.
Jac, I know this all is miserable to go through and you feel the need to do SOMETHING to shake things up. But even if your W is having a go at the local football team, she wouldn't consider it an "affair" because she's already moved out and essentially fired you as H. Sure there's some paper filed somewhere saying you're still married, but to her that's just a pesky detail. So in her eyes if she's having no sex, a little sex, a lot of sex or an insane amount of sex, it's "NUNYA" (that's our office shorthand, if someone asks where we're going to lunch we say "nunya" which is short for "nunya business"
) So if you confront her she is very likely to set the record straight for you, that you are divorced in everyway except that pesky piece of paper, that you have no right to pry into what she is doing and in fact HOW DARE YOU snoop and make accusations etc. etc. You see where I'm going, it'll all just blow up in your face and you'll end up looking like the bad guy for even bringing it up.
Unchien - I didn't end up having a chat with her. I've done what I can and although it's taken some time i realize she needs to work through this on her own. I'm here if she needs me and she knows that.
As for the finances - at this point I just don't have many options. I don't want to take the money out of our investments. She should be helping us out and I'm only asking for the help so I can make sure I can stay in this house for my son. I'm doing what I can to make more and I'll keep trying.
No, I don't want to share the time with our son. She knows me well enough to know that the money has never been an issue to me and I just want my son. She hasn't shown an interest in being his mom over the past 6 months - her needs over his, and right now I'm doing the better job at parenting. She was a great mom before all of this and I hope she changes things around to be better in the future.
When I came home tonight she did ask if I met up with friends. Instead of lying I told her the truth: I went out to dinner on my own so she could have some quality time with our son and I could have some quiet time for myself. She appreciated that. I asked about her day and she shared how work was. When she left, she gave me a hug.
She also noticed a few times that I was still wearing my ring. I caught her looking twice.
Anyways, overall a good day. Thanks for following up.
AS - point taken. I have to remember that right now she's not herself. I wonder if her sexual assault from high school (she never dealt with it) has any lingering effects to any of this. I guess its up to her to figure out.
She's making some new friends at work and they are girls for once. She brought that up and made a point to tell me she's making friends with girls and she seemed happy about that. I just said :"that's great".
I was in a bad spot for a couple days but with everyone's help on here I feel a little bit better regardless of what she's doing.
This weekend I'm taking my Son to a friends cottage for a few days so we'll enjoy that.
Also - it appears she has yet to contact a lawyer regarding our S agreement. Apparently a friend of hers recommended she use my lawyer and try to do this amicably. Her brother called to tell me this. We talked about this a week ago and she still hasn't moved forward.
My BIL wants to give her a reality check. Her father would have but he never got a chance so he sees this as his role. I'm staying out of it.
Jac, I know this all is miserable to go through and you feel the need to do SOMETHING to shake things up. But even if your W is having a go at the local football team, she wouldn't consider it an "affair" because she's already moved out and essentially fired you as H. Sure there's some paper filed somewhere saying you're still married, but to her that's just a pesky detail. So in her eyes if she's having no sex, a little sex, a lot of sex or an insane amount of sex, it's "NUNYA" (that's our office shorthand, if someone asks where we're going to lunch we say "nunya" which is short for "nunya business"
) So if you confront her she is very likely to set the record straight for you, that you are divorced in everyway except that pesky piece of paper, that you have no right to pry into what she is doing and in fact HOW DARE YOU snoop and make accusations etc. etc. You see where I'm going, it'll all just blow up in your face and you'll end up looking like the bad guy for even bringing it up.
An example of this sort of reaction was my EXWW when I confronted her with proof from the PI I hired. She literally told me "I cant be with a man I cant trust, how dare you have me followed "
Ahhh.. The old double standard. Priceless. Watch their actions and not their words.
I wonder if her sexual assault from high school (she never dealt with it) has any lingering effects to any of this. I guess its up to her to figure out.
Here's my attitude about that- almost everyone goes through some kind of traumatic event growing up. If she went on to a successful career and a happy marriage for many years afterwards then she chose for it not to shape her life, and GOOD FOR HER. So no, it probably has nothing to do with your current situation. My XW was heavily abused by a boyfriend when she was in college including numerous death threats and waking up in the middle of the night to him standing over her with a steak knife poised over her chest. Despite that we had a wonderful relationship for over 20 years and I feel it had no bearing on BD, S or D.
The two of you are living in separate houses, right?
Hi Sandi,
Yes, we are living separate since Feb 1/19. She was here for two months after her dad died late March but she would go back to her place 1 or 2x/week if it was convenient (appointment in the morn or baseball game late).
Quick update:
W texted me early in the day to see if I was able to be home by 8pm tonight (her night with our S, at my house) so she could take a last minute cancelation with a psychiatrist she was hoping to see.
So, she's currently (unless she's lying) in her first session with a psychiatrist.
10 days ago she said she only had "issues" when she was with me and she didn't think she needed to see anyone. She said she was happier on her own. I guess this is why one of the rules is believe nothing they say and half of what they do.
Does anyone have experience with a WW who leaves behind a child? This has to be pretty rare right? Especially for someone who was an involved mother previously, and a good one.
I suppose we may see a lot of it on this forum but this is a small subset of the actual population.
Does anyone have experience with a WW who leaves behind a child? This has to be pretty rare right? Especially for someone who was an involved mother previously, and a good one.
We
do read about from time to time. It is difficult to understand how a mother could not want to be with her small child, but didn't she tell you she did not want any responsibilities? Here's the thing about WW's.......they want to be free from whatever they see holds them down. Maybe it is their MR, their child, their church, their parent(s), or whatever requires their obligation. In other words, they shun whatever/whoever cramps their style.
What does your lawyer advise, should your W refuse to sign separation agreement?
Thanks Sandi...we didn't talk about what would happen if she doesn't sign. I'll ask once they send me the proposal.
I understand what you are saying about the WW. And she's disregarding all of her previous close relationships. Her mom is a recent widow and was upset the other day bc my W never calls her to check in on her. Yes, my W did say she wanted to run from responsibilities.
I'll continue to be the lighthouse. The only reason we are doing the S agreement (and after 2 weeks she is still yet to see a L) is bc she hasn't been contributing a fair amount during this.
Yes as Sandi said it happens. Previously doting and loving mothers (fathers too) suddenly wanting nothing to do with their children. It can be extremely difficult to come to terms with, it just really highlights how your W is not the same person you knew and loved. She may come out of it or she may not, it can't be predicted. I can't remember if Michele said this in her books or if it was one of the vets here, but when they disconnect the go in this order- spouse, children, family, friends. When they reconnect (if they ever do) they do so in the opposite order.
Does anyone have experience with a WW who leaves behind a child? This has to be pretty rare right? Especially for someone who was an involved mother previously, and a good one.
I suppose we may see a lot of it on this forum but this is a small subset of the actual population.
Not as rare as you might think. WWs are especially susceptible to this phenomenon.
My EXWW almost ditched us all. The pull from OM was so strong she was going to up and move to his home state, where he lives with his wife, using the guise of "work wants me to move".
This was when she thought I didnt know she was cheating. She was going to work in his home state and come "visit" us every two weeks for a weekend.
I had not confirmed her A yet but I knew what was going on. I told her that I felt she would be choosing work over her family. I told her my feelings that she would essentially be ditching her family for work. It royally pissed her off that I was not on board with that.
Before OM she always planned on us moving as a family if her work afforded such an opportunity.
Of course now, even though we are D, her kids know why we are D so she decided to stay in our home town.
I honestly wish that she would just leave and give me full custody. But she wont.
Yes as Sandi said it happens. Previously doting and loving mothers (fathers too) suddenly wanting nothing to do with their children. It can be extremely difficult to come to terms with, it just really highlights how your W is not the same person you knew and loved. She may come out of it or she may not, it can't be predicted. I can't remember if Michele said this in her books or if it was one of the vets here, but when they disconnect the go in this order- spouse, children, family, friends. When they reconnect (if they ever do) they do so in the opposite order.
that's interesting and the order in how she disconnected was pretty spot on.
Just got back from a nice weekend at my friends cottage. Took my son and we had a great time - he loved riding on the Jet Ski.
W sent a text the morning of the day we were driving up: "Hope you guys have loads of fun this weekend. Have a safe drive".
I just sent back "We Will. Thanks".
It was nice to be away from the madness for a few days. Busy week ahead, including the S Agreement Proposal being sent to her at some point during the week.
My W just sent me a text reminding me that "Bachelor in Paradise" starts tonight. We used to watch this show together for some unwinding but I have no interest in it on my own. She did the same thing a week ago about the Bachelor Finale. Last week I texted back: "Thanks for thinking of me"...I know I should have just let it go but I thought I'd be nice since she was thinking of me.
I won't respond to this one but why isn't it nice to just say "thanks" back? Also, I'm in the process of reading No More Mr. Nice Guy in case anyone was going to suggest that
I won't respond to this one but why isn't it nice to just say "thanks" back? Also, I'm in the process of reading No More Mr. Nice Guy in case anyone was going to suggest that
Don't skip around and/or rush through the book. Read all of it, slowly. Then give us the answer to your question.
Sandi - is it because I'm saying it in order to get some sort of reaction out of her? Or to make her feel good? Basically it has nothing to do with me and my feelings and putting my own needs first.
Well...I had a chat with my WW this evening. I wanted to be up front with my feelings as this was something I wasn't good at before all this happened. Basically talked about some things I had learned about myself and how it may have contributed to our marriage going downhill - a lot of nice guy syndrome things. She seemed to appreciate me doing some introspection and said maybe she should be doing the same thing.
But....she has no feelings for me. She thinks there are too many little things that have added up and she has no interest in working on the marriage. She said she would likely be dating in the near future (I think she's seeing someone now, just a hunch though). She thought she was clear a few weeks ago when we chatted about it being over. I asked her then why she said she wouldn't sign the divorce papers and she said because it seems so final. But she reiterated that she's done and she doens't care if I was with someone else.
So since the BD dec 9/18 she has done nearly zero to work on our marriage and keep our family together. We have a beautiful little boy who one day will ask his mom if she tried and she said "I'm comfortable telling him no, I didn't feel it anymore". WTF. I am beyond hurt and angry and sad.
I told her tonight that I haven't recognized this person for the last 9 months. She said people change. I said you used to be a great mom and now you'd rather go to Toronto with friends than spend the day with your son who you only see twice a week. I don't know this W, the old W was a great person. I also said she should continue to see an IC bc this isn't you. I don't know this person.
So it looks like we will be getting a D. She'll get the S agreement proposal this week which is pretty much what they'll use in the D.
I'm asking for full child support of course. I'm asking that my son lives with me and I am the custodial parent. She can visit on certain days and I'll be cooperative with giving her some time. In lieu of full spousal support I've asked to keep our house and my investments.
She won't be happy as basically it works out to $2400/month and she's off the house and can't touch my investments. But...that probably beats her paying $4000/month. My L thinks I'll get what I am asking for.
I thought she was the love of my life. I loved her completely. I don't know what happened.
This is why we say "no R talks". Most LBHs can't handle getting their grapes crushed like this. R talks get you no where and only set you back further.
To other LBSs, use jac's experience as a valuable lesson.
This is why we say "no R talks". Most LBHs can't handle getting their grapes crushed like this. R talks get you no where and only set you back further.
To other LBSs, use jac's experience as a valuable lesson.
Steve, I think this outcome was coming right from the very start. She has had no intention of trying to work things out in our marriage. She's a ghost of her former self. She said she wants me in her life, just not romantically.
I'm actually doing better than I thought I would. I've probably been expecting this and I'm not attracted to the person she is now.
Also, I couldn't let this continue the way it's been going as she's been neglecting her responsibilities to her son. Saturday's are supposed to be her days and 2 Saturdays ago she chose to go to Toronto with her friends instead of spending it with her son. She isn't paying any financial support and I've had to change my job so I could look after our son while she goes through her mess. I'm at a point where that can't continue and she would have dragged it on so she can spend her money however she wants.
Maybe she would have come around, or still may, but she's not doing any personal growth work on her end or trying to see how she contributed to anything. She'd rather take her issues onto the next relationship.
I'll still let her handle the actual D filing as that isn't what I want (however, I'm getting closer to that myself). I'm not ready to be in another relationship at this point but it looks like seeing other people is now on the table.
How can I have any respect for someone who left their child? I really believed there were some mental issues going on but she's not addressing them and really doesn't believe that to be the case. It's just how she feels. Are you suggesting those feelings can actually change?
How do I move forward now as far as our interactions go?
Jac it's called riding the storm out. You don't try to do busy renovations in the middle of a hurricane. All of our wives were done with their marriage after BD. All of them neglected their responsibilities of they were wayward. All of them said things similar to your wife. The key is patience. Your sitch is no different now than it was before this discussion. The only thing that changed was your entire emotions based on her words. You've broken two DB principles:
Don't start R discussions.
Believe nothing she says.
Just like before she is likely to do nothing and sign nothing that moves S or D forward. We say this all the time, that usually the LBS has to do that. WAS are notoriously lazy about that kind of thing.
Jac, when you have the urge to do something usually the best course of action is to do nothing. As Cadet says, in DBing doing nothing IS doing something.
Take a deep breath. Step back. Calm down. Stop trying to control the sitch and her.
This is why we say "no R talks". Most LBHs can't handle getting their grapes crushed like this. R talks get you no where and only set you back further.
To other LBSs, use jac's experience as a valuable lesson.
^^^YUP^^^
Steve, I think this outcome was coming right from the very start. She has had no intention of trying to work things out in our marriage. She's a ghost of her former self. She said she wants me in her life, just not romantically.
Jac, everything she is saying to you is "script". Why do we call it that? Because they all say it. It's another reason we say no R talks, because you are just going to get a big earful of script. It is simply a reflection of what she feels at that one moment in time and really doesn't mean anything.
Also, stop with the blaming and accusations. Telling her she's a bad mom who would rather be partying than taking care of her son is not going to make a good impression on her. You know the old saying you can't attract a bee with vinegar? Same with a WAS, yet you're pouring on the vinegar, expecting what? That she'll say "oh wow Jac is right I need to snap out of it and get my life back on track!" No she's thinking "how dare he say such things, HE is why this is happening, HE is the bad guy here, HE is why I feel this way" etc. etc. Right now it's all your fault. So don't add fuel to her fire.
Maybe she would have come around, or still may, but she's not doing any personal growth work on her end or trying to see how she contributed to anything.
Your recent comments are full of this kind of stuff. That's an "expectation" and you need to drop them all. She's not meeting your expectations, well OF COURSE NOT. It's far too soon for her to be having a change of heart. That will take many more months, maybe years.
How can I have any respect for someone who left their child? I really believed there were some mental issues going on but she's not addressing them and really doesn't believe that to be the case. It's just how she feels. Are you suggesting those feelings can actually change?
Have you read Steve's sitch? If so, then you already know the answer to this. If not, spend a few hours reading it.
How do I move forward now as far as our interactions go?
Detach. GAL. All interactions should be 100% business- kid dropoffs and pickups, bills, period. Treat her like you would a client. NO MORE R TALKS EVER PERIOD.
Steve85- I appreciate your feedback. I know you are correct. But what am I supposed to do about her financial obligations? I risk taking on debt just so she can have her freedom and contribute nothing to the family?
How would you suggest I handle that part?
AS - I do understand what you're saying and I feel like I've been doing that but I also have to look after my son and make sure we are doing ok financially. If I didn't need her to contribute I'd be ok giving her more space but I've been handling everything on my own for 6 months and I'm near the end of my rope.
I guess I'm not doing as good a job as I thought I was. I see that the scripts are all similar but I'm obviously way too attached still to her behaviour.
I'll read Steve's sitch again.
So the question is: should I move forward with the S agreement? It's business and I can move on and let her be to sort herself out.
There is obviously a risk of this upsetting her but does this go against DB principles?
Listen to Steve Jac. Nothing has changed. Your MR was over. Its still over. No more R talks as it does nothing but show pursuit. When you talk about R it pushes her away further. When you tell her things like she isnt the same person and you show disappointment it just causes her to self justify even more.
Keep working on yourself. Remove all expectations you have of your WW and your MR. Its time for Jac to improve himself. Its time for Jac to do everything he has ever wanted to do. Its time for Jac to step up and take care of his own happiness. That is all you are responsible for. Being a good father and being good to yourself. that is literally all that matters right now.
The more you detach and the more you work on yourself the less you will even care about what she is doing. You will get to a point where you may go file for D because youre done and ready to walk your path and set yourself up for your own happiness.
Its hard yes. It hurts yes. But there will be a time where your emotions are not affected by your WW.
I hurt for a while. I still hurt because I miss the comfort of my family and being with my kids all the time. But I do not hurt, nor miss my EXWW. I decided that I need to love me and my children. Thats it. Thats all that matters. We deserve much better than what our WWs decided. So go get that much better. Its in your hands now.
Steve85- I appreciate your feedback. I know you are correct. But what am I supposed to do about her financial obligations? I risk taking on debt just so she can have her freedom and contribute nothing to the family?
How would you suggest I handle that part?
So the question is: should I move forward with the S agreement? It's business and I can move on and let her be to sort herself out.
There is obviously a risk of this upsetting her but does this go against DB principles?
I do not blame any LBS for trying to protect themselves financially and legally. The problem is that a lot of LBS use financial concerns and legalities as an excuse to try to control or manipulate their WAS. "Maybe if I separate finances then she'll wake up!" "Maybe if I present her with a S agreement she'll wake up!"
This almost never works. So yes talk to a lawyer. Yes create a S agreement and get her to agree to it. Yes separate finances so that you are protected financially. But do it for the RIGHT reason, to protect yourself legally and financially. Not as some grand action to get her to wake up and come back to the MR.
Remember jac, most of the time no action is the best action at all. The LBSs that struggle the most are the impulsive ones that have little patience. If you are normally an impatient person, use this opportunity to learn and practice patience.
There is obviously a risk of this upsetting her but does this go against DB principles?
What goes against DB principles is worrying about upsetting her or not. You cannot control her reactions and emotions. Stop trying. Do what you need to do. How she reacts is how she reacts. Remember, her actions and words should have zero effect on you emotionally. That is what you are trying to achieve.
AS - I do understand what you're saying and I feel like I've been doing that but I also have to look after my son and make sure we are doing ok financially. If I didn't need her to contribute I'd be ok giving her more space but I've been handling everything on my own for 6 months and I'm near the end of my rope.
Do what you must to protect yourself. If you need to file a formal S or D agreement to get the support you need then do it. But don't have an R talk with her first because she is DONE (for now) and there's no point. Just proceed with the legal side of it and be done with it.
I'll read Steve's sitch again.
If you've read it then you don't have to go back, my point is just that Steve's wife said all the same stuff as yours and now he's reconciled. She spewed script with the best of them. But she still changed her mind later. MANY of them DO change their mind. Will yours? We can't tell you with certainty, and we can't tell you when it will happen if it does. But like many LBS's, you seem to take everything she says as permanent. "Well she said XYZ so it really is over, there's no chance". I hear it around here so much, but the fact is you do not know the future. I've seen marriages come back from situations that seemed virtually impossible, much farther off the deep end than yours.
I'll read Steve's sitch again.
If you've read it then you don't have to go back, my point is just that Steve's wife said all the same stuff as yours and now he's reconciled. She spewed script with the best of them. But she still changed her mind later. MANY of them DO change their mind. Will yours? We can't tell you with certainty, and we can't tell you when it will happen if it does. But like many LBS's, you seem to take everything she says as permanent. "Well she said XYZ so it really is over, there's no chance". I hear it around here so much, but the fact is you do not know the future. I've seen marriages come back from situations that seemed virtually impossible, much farther off the deep end than yours.
Listen to AS here. This is good stuff. I should quote this in R2C's quote thread.
jac, here is the thing. WASs/WSs do not like to give up on the "dream" they had. They will not let it go easily. ESPECIALLY VERBALLY.
In my sitch, My W's actions started to change. She was initiating sex....a lot. She start cooking family dinners again. She started making future plans for us as a family. She even started keeping the house much better, which was a common point of contention between us, and she completely stopped doing housework once her EA started.
But if I had asked her early on (and I made this mistake a couple of times if you read my threads), she still would say she wanted to be D'd and on her own. Once that switch flipped in her where she no longer wanted to be married, she didn't want to give that up...and even when her actions started showing she was changing her mind, her words didn't match that.
Jac and other LBSs........words have NO meaning. DO NOT BELIEVE ANYTHING THEY SAY. NOTHING. Negative or positive.
Ok guys I really appreciate your advice and comments. I consider myself to be a very patient person (friends also say that) but in this situation I'm realizing that I haven't been as patient as I need to be.
I also worry about every little interaction and try to guess what the hell she's thinking. For example, we had that chat Tuesday night and then Wednesday she was super pleasant and cheery - almost as if she doesn't realize the destruction that she's caused up until this point.
I obviously hope that we can reunite although I do not like the person she's been and I fully believe that this isn't the real W.
In order to protect me and our Son I'll have my L send the separation agreement proposal. I'll work hard on doing my own thing and being a great dad. Give her space. Be pleasant and positive during interactions AND I will do my best to let whatever she is saying or doing roll off my back. Validate as needed.
I do believe that deep down she knows something isn't right with her but until she's ready to do some work on her end there is nothing I can do.
I'll be sure to post here as needed, especially if I'm faced with an issue that I'm not sure how to handle.
Mentally - it helps me to just think of her as somebody else right now. I wouldn't really care what they were up to but I'd be pleasant during interactions.
Steve - this comment hit home with me: jac, here is the thing. WASs/WSs do not like to give up on the "dream" they had. They will not let it go easily. ESPECIALLY VERBALLY.
She has said many things and then acted differently in the days after. I follow you.
My wife received the S agreement proposal today. She texted me after she received it with some questions and she seemed pretty ok with everything...not necessarily what was in it as we didn't really discuss it but she just seemed ok with this part of the process.
Any thoughts on this?
I'm going to detach hard and not let her affect my emotional state. The goal is that in a few months or so from now I'll either be ready to move on by myself or maybe she decides she wants to try and work things out. Hopefully I didn't do too much damage over the past few weeks but I need to protect myself and my son.
My wife received the S agreement proposal today. She texted me after she received it with some questions and she seemed pretty ok with everything...not necessarily what was in it as we didn't really discuss it but she just seemed ok with this part of the process.
Any thoughts on this?
My thought is you should completely ignore her reaction.
You could have said "She texted me after saying she was going to elope with another woman" or "She texted me after saying she wanted to come over and jump into my arms and fix everything" and I would tell you the same thing. Ignore it.
People have reconciled 20 years after D. During these situations, we all hit major milestones from time to time. Bomb drop. Legal filing. Evidence of EA/PA. My opinion is that these are all gut punches, and also they should ideally have zero impact to what you are doing. This has to feel like a big step, I know.
I'm going to detach hard and not let her affect my emotional state. The goal is that in a few months or so from now I'll either be ready to move on by myself or maybe she decides she wants to try and work things out. Hopefully I didn't do too much damage over the past few weeks but I need to protect myself and my son.
Minor quibble - take the timeline out of it. Just keep working on yourself. I am guilty of setting timelines in my head and generally it just adds to frustration. I suggest you focus on yourself, thinking in your head that at some future point in time you may be ready to move on.
Unchien,
Thanks for the response. Intuitively I know I should ignore her reactions...hard to do right now but I am working on it.
I'm going to focus on my business and build that back up to where it was before I had to change everything so I could look after my son. Mission now is to go on and be strong - be a great dad for my boy.
I hope you're finding great advice in your situation too...we both suffer from NGS and I'll be trying to fix that too.
"I do believe that deep down she knows something isn't right with her but until she's ready to do some work on her end there is nothing I can do."
jac12 - there is always something you can do. I obsess about my ex all the time and it doesn't matter what I want her to do, I cannot force it. All I can change is me. I have acted in a number of ways recently that I would not have considered before. I don't recognise myself - I've changed. No success yet with her but I know she has noticed. Think outside your box and increase your chances. You may get it wrong or right but she will notice and she may choose the path you want. If she communicates surprise at your behaviour you open new avenues and you can always modify it. Good luck.
I hear you Family Man. I'm on it.
That is all incredibly rough with a 2.5 yo. I've got two small kids at home, and the idea of someone breaking up a young family without even trying to fix it is so hard to accept! I also understand that it is harder to be in limbo when you have a toddler. Waiting around for someone to make up their mind is brutal when you have to figure out childcare, and watching a toddler doesn't leave much room at all for GAL.
As long as you get the S agreement in place, I wouldn't push for a D. But ask for everything you want! This is legal, not emotional. Don't worry about upsetting her. Ask for as much money as you can get - you can always decrease it in the future. Some of the things I'll go after in my D will likely destroy any chance of R (not a big loss at this point), but my priority has to be taking care of myself and my kids for the future.
Thanks Sunset3, that's the plan moving forward.
I've started to ask myself if losing someone who is willing to walk away from their family such a bad thing?
Thanks Sunset3, that's the plan moving forward.
I've started to ask myself if losing someone who is willing to walk away from their family such a bad thing?
jac12 this is defeatist talk and damages your cause. I know it's hard but if you treat this like a game of chess and try to enjoy trying new tactics that will surprise her that is your best hope of influencing her. Keep playing the same old game and she will only see the same old problems that got you here. Change the perspective. What more have you got to lose?
Yes, we will get the S agreement done and as you said I'm going to work on myself, try some new things that I've wanted to do and we will see what happens from here. I'm confident I can lovingly detach - and if she chooses to D, then I'll be in a better place mentally to handle that once I'm detached.
Plan is to golf, see friends, and find a cooking class to go to when she's with our son. I'd also like to start kayaking.
Today was her day with our son. She came at 7:30am and brought coffee for me. I thanked her, we had small chit chat and then I said I had to shower and get going. The chit chat was mostly me validating her challenges at work and a bit about our son.
Today my W looked after our S until I got home around 8pm (I was out doing things - golf, shopping, dinner). I was doing my thing and giving her space to be with our S since they hang out at our joint house.
After my W took him to bed she came downstairs and was crying.
Me: What's wrong?
W: I just miss him so much. He says goodnight mommy and it breaks my heart.
Me: I can imagine that would be difficult for you.
W: yeaaaaah. It's hard.
Me: You had a nice time with him though right?
W: Yes we did. We had a really nice time.
Me: I'm glad.
She grabbed her things and made a point to give me a hug (lately that hasn't happened). I said drive safe and carried on.
Have a nice weekend planned with S. Going to take him to see some horses at a friends place and then go swimming with some friends.
My W has him on Sunday so I'll be out golfing with friends and maybe go on a bike ride.
Nice job on the validation! I love the “I can imagine...” starter phrase. You got close to the edge there with the rest of it but I think it was fine. You acknowledged she enjoyed the time with S.
Ignore the hug.
Today is my W's day to be with our S. We agreed on Wednesday she would come for 8am.
It's now after 9am and she's still not here - text convo:
Me: Where are you? you ok?
W: Hey I'm still at my place, just getting up. I'm ok thanks.
W: I didn't think I was needed super early. Oh no, is that no the case?
Me: When you left on on Wednesday we are agreed on 8am. What time will you get here?
W: Oh my god I don't remember that, I'm so sorry. Do you have somewhere to be?
Me: Nowhere specific anymore. I was supposed to play golf at 9:30
W: Goddamnit I'm sorry
No further response from me. Even if I didn't have anywhere to be she was crying on Wednesday because she misses our S so much. Now she's going to be 2 hours late - it doesn't appear as though he's a priority to her.
Any suggestions on how to handle this when I see her soon? I definitely will not be asking what she was doing.
I have experienced similar things with my H on his mornings to pick up D4. For what it’s worth, he has been a very dedicated, involved dad throughout. That said, I find this kind of thing super triggering. My head always goes to thinking he “slept in” because he’s in bed with someone, and the idea of that making him late to see D3 fills me with rage.
I’ve reacted in a variety of ways to this over time. And my advice is, just don’t. If I could go back, I would not show any reaction at all. Then perhaps in a later convo revisit and let her know that it’s important for your sons sake that you both be consistent and show up for him at the expected time?
The reason doesn’t matter... it is disrespectful to agree to a time and then not follow through.
I’d suggest you separate the what from the why in your mind.
Then think about how to handle it. Consider being firm about dates and times. Coparenting doesn’t work well if both parties can’t agree to follow through on those basic commitments.
Also document these events. Never know if you may find it useful down the road (“agreed to 8am. No response until after 9am.”)
And Hope is right... number one consistency is important for your child’s sake.
Thanks guys - yes at this point I really don't care why she was late. In my head I just assume that she's with someone else and it helps me to move forward without her.
That said, I still hope she's healthy in general and I worry that she's not taking care of her mental health.
When she eventually came by (2.5 hours late) she apologized and looked like she felt bad. I told her I enjoyed my time with our son but moving forward we need to be consistent. I had to change my plans because of this.This was our convo:
W: I'm so sorry, I feel so bad.
Me: No big deal, I enjoyed my time. I'd rather spend my time with S than go golfing but we need to be consistent.
W: I don't remember us agreeing on a time. I'm worried about my memory now.
Me: Yeah we agreed on 8am but even if you forgot I'm concerned that you didn't come early to spend time with your son. You basically missed out on 3 hours with him and last Wednesday you were crying that you didn't get to see him enough. I know you don't want to hear it from me but I know you. You are a great Mom and but you're not acting like yourself. Are you doing ok?
W: Yeah, I think so
Me: Ok, well I hope you have someone to talk to about your thoughts because you may not want to be part of this family, or be my wife, but you're still a mom to Kai and he needs his mom to be healthy.
W: Yeah....
I know I said too much so no need for any 2x4's. She still won't open up at all. She thinks her world is perfect and all her physical changes are making her a better person. She is so wrong. She's becoming more and more awful. And she also asked if she could spend Sunday's with him instead of Saturdays because she wants to go out with friends on Saturdays.
Also, still has not seen her L about the Separation agreement. Says its been busy at work.
Face palm and shake of the head.
Face palm and shake of the head.
For me talking too much?
Yes and not validating. Plus you reminded her again that she doesn’t want to be your wife. You need to brush up on DB 101.
Yes and not validating. Plus you reminded her again that she doesn’t want to be your wife. You need to brush up on DB 101.
I see...I did have many opportunities to validate and I was so focused on her faults that I didn't even recognize it.
Part of my problem is that I'm just tired of all this crap and I'm truly starting to be less interested in her. But I see that that attitude will fully shut the door and I'm not ready for that just yet.
I'll brush up on DB101 and get back at it. Overall I feel like I'm doing decent with it - I don't text her and don't ask about her whereabouts. I validate as often as I can ( but clearly missing opportunities). I'm positive when I'm around her and I'm doing things with my life that I enjoy. However, I make my mistakes and can be better.
Thanks LH19
LH19 (and others as well)—
what do you think about validating after the fact? Is it ever appropriate to go back and validate something after you’ve missed an opportunity? Or is that too pursuant/weird?
Yep. When you miss the opportunity just move on and wait until the next opportunity. It will surely come.
Hi Guys,
It's been two weeks since my wife received the separation proposal and she's still yet to contact a lawyer (says she's been busy at work).
I'd like to text her or talk to her Sunday when I see her about this. As a reminder, we need to get this done so I can make sure me and my son are ok financially so I'd prefer not to wait this out.
Any advice on what to say in a text? Or best way to approach this?
Thanks
Short direct and to the point.
Curious as to why you are trying to push this along.
She isn't helping out financially in any way. Our child is with me 100% of the time (she visits here twice a week) and I'm going into more debt each month as my income (self employed) has been cut by 40% since I changed my schedule so I could look after my son.
I'm not ready to go down the D path yet but this separation should be fair to both sides financially. She avoids everything and I worry this could drag on even further and next thing you know I'm in much deeper debt.
Ok. Understand. Makes sense to push it through.
Jac, you may have gone over this already but are you in the US, and if so, are you in a state that has legal separation? Was what you sent her an actual legal document or just a proposal? If wherever you live there is no "legal" separation (like here in TX), then you're in a tough spot. If you need financial support from her and she continues to ignore you on it then you will have to file for D and force her hand.
If you have legal separation then I would talk to your L about filing through legal channels if you haven't already done so.
Then after you talk to him, tell your W that you need a response by XX date or you will be filing.
Look into default judgements. I don't know how much house and investment value you're talking about, but I think its a big mistake not to get any spousal. You can document income loss because you have your son full-time. In the future she may and probably will fight get 50-50 and your child support is gone, but don't expect her to ever pay for any of his expenses and you will still be taking up all the slack with your time. In that case you are in trouble.
I suggest you talk to your L about going straight to filing with spousal at the value of your forfeited income. Usually these become default judgements if she doesn't respond in 30 or 60 days. File and never say a word about it to her again.
I absolutely guarantee you that she is seeing someone and is totally in limerence based on her behavior. I can also guarantee you that it wont last and she will go from ignoring jac to hating jac very soon. You want to get everything final before that happens.
And you know what, if you still want to reconcile with whatever it is she becomes through this...think about what she can gain in reconciliation versus how she will end up divorced. People who get bulldozed in the divorce are always more open to reconciliation than those who make out like bandits.
Thanks Guys - good input.
I'm in Canada and we have legal separation here. I'm asking for the house and my investments instead of full spousal because I really don't need her to pay full spousal and I'd rather have the house and my investments. Plus if she loses her job down the road then I don't have to worry about that part.
But yes, I will talk to my L about setting a date and filing the legal separation if I haven't heard from her.
I'm about 75% that she's seeing someone and I'm quite certain it won't last, especially once we finalize these payments as she is currently living above her means even without paying us anything. In my head though I just assume she's with someone else as otherwise her behaviour would really not make sense. Helps me to move on on my own too. Would I be open to reconciliation? I think so - but as others have noted, that door closes more each month. I'm certainly not attracted to the person she is right now but I do believe she's in there somewhere.
I appreciate the input!
W came by this morning to pick up our S2 for the day. We ended up chatting for awhile, started with her asking about the separation agreement.
W: I just don't see how either of us can afford to live on our own in our current places (she's worried she'll be making far less than she was last year).
Me: Yes, I see that it would be more difficult.
I then made the mistake of suggesting we could actually work on our marriage and see if we can turn this back around.
W: We shouldn't be doing it for financial reasons though.
Me: I completely agree. For me there are other reasons if you're interested in hearing them.
W: (sits down) Sure what are the reasons?
Me: We have a child together. And most importantly I think we've been going through the toughest stage in our relationship and we werent equipped with the knowledge of how to handle it. I think we can get back there if we both choose to want that.
W: I see that but I'm not sure if you were ever passionate about me.
Me: I can assure you I was but didn't really know how to express myself, especially as I felt you pulling away. I just thought we'd get through it. I can't go back in time but I understand how that made you feel.
W: I felt like you were judging me and I couldn't be myself (starts getting teary) and I don't want that for the rest of my life.
Me: I see I made you feel bad. I agree that I've been too judgmental in the past and I didn't realize how that affected you. I certainly don't want you to feel that way either and I think I've made improvements in that area and I want to love and accept you for who you are, warts and all. I'm sorry I made you feel that way.
She also said there hasn't been any EA or PA's but she admitted that she was liking the attention she was getting from other men (mostly even from her work friends) and it made her feel appreciated and special. I again said I was sorry that I didn't do enough to make her feel that way. Having a baby and dealing with her dad's illness maybe got in the way of us connecting like we used to.
We kind of left it at that so we will see if she thinks about this further...I don't think she will at this point so I'm not getting my hopes up.
But I took the following from the conversation:
1) She's maybe not as finished as I thought she was but it's still looking bleak.
2) The root of the problem was her not feeling special, loved, and accepted. Combined with everything going on around us and in our lives she felt trapped in her current situation.
Moving forward:
1) No expectations but I'll continue to detach with love.
2) I'll invite her out to the odd family outing. She can choose whether to accept or not. (I did this last week, just invited her to the park with us, and although she said she was stuck at work she said: "thanks for thinking of me, have fun, heart).
3) I will do the odd thing that makes her feel special and loved (unless you guys say that's a bad idea). Im not going over the top but even just something little here and there to let her know I'm trying to make her life easier and more enjoyable.
4) I will continue to move forward with the S agreement as really nothing has changed in the situation and she needs to start helping out.
As always, I appreciate any thoughts.
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Slow and Steady