Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: Gomez Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/11/19 10:45 PM
Hi all. I'm new to the forum and could do with some advice from you lovely people please.

So last year my wife said she wanted a divorce. We've had trouble for years. She was a fairly crappy housewife and spent way to much and in response I was cold and unloving towards her. This made her even more miserable so she did less and spent more so I was less inclined to be loving towards her and so we spiralled.

The thing is, when she said she wanted a divorce I knew I'd messed up and did all the things you're not supposed to do (telling her I can change, phone calls, gifts etc) and of course it didn't work.

Early this year she said that was definitely it and filed. I subsequently found out she'd been messaging a friend of a friend with some very explicit messages. She says it didn't go physical and I believe her. I don't think they're still in regular contact but she does get the occasional message and i think she still thinks about him sometimes, maybe as a potential lover, maybe just as a friend. During this time I got myself together and GAL. So much so I was starting to look forward to a single life with joint shared custody of our two boys. Then about a month ago she had family troubles and I was there for her (we still live together as the sale of our home has collapsed twice). She said she wanted to try again. Hallelujah! Except I said I didn't know. I didn't know if I could forgive her all that and if that was the life I wanted. By the time I though it through and said yes, she'd changed her mind. So now I'm back wanting her again and she's even more determined to push it over the line this time. What do I do? I've bought Divorce Remedies and am reading through it but Idont know where to start. She's given me the ILYBINILWY speach. Her biggest hurdle seems to be she dreads me coming home as she's been conditioned over the years to expect me to moan at the state of the house (which she acknowledges I don't now do and ive been so much better but she can't get over it). She acknowledges I've changed and I'm unrecognizable in a good way (more loving, less snappy, more patient, less controlling etc) but the damage is done. There's so much more detail I could add, so much more background but it would turn into an essay! Happy to answer any more info you need.

Any and all advice welcome!

Thanks
Posted By: Cadet Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/11/19 10:49 PM
Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/12/19 05:09 AM
What to do? Last Resort Technique:

1. Stop Pursuing.
2. Get a Life.
3. Wait and see.

Quote
She acknowledges I've changed and I'm unrecognizable in a good way


If you're asking her if she sees changes, that is adding pressure. If you're doing this, I would advise you to stop. Have you seen R2C's posts about attraction?
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/12/19 07:14 AM
Thanks for the reply. I haven’t seen that and I can’t find it through the search function. Could you possibly post a link please?
Posted By: CanBird Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/12/19 08:39 AM
You still live together, so you've got that going for you. What are your sleeping arrangements?

Maybe plan some special things with the boys? Take your mind off of her.
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/12/19 08:50 AM
Separate rooms but we have had sex a couple of times within the last 3 months. She said straight away it shouldn’t have happened though. One thing I probably need to add is she’s always on her phone. I know she’s on social media but don’t know what she’s doing and I can’t help but think she’s messaging him but asking her doesn’t help anything. Just adds to her pressure and makes me look insecure (which TBF I am!)
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/12/19 12:11 PM
A quick question about 180/ detaching. We currently do somethings together like tennis. Should I stop that? It seems counter intuitive to not do things together we enjoy. Also, I do most of the cooking-it would just p!ss her off to say I’ll cook for the boys but not you. Finally I assume when she says things like “ when we have our own places” or “when we’re divorced” I shouldn’t balk but presumably join in and seem enthused by it?
Posted By: Cadet Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/12/19 12:44 PM
Originally Posted by Gomez
Thanks for the reply. I haven’t seen that and I can’t find it through the search function. Could you possibly post a link please?


Start here

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=62199&Number=2846984#Post2846984

it has the links for a lot of really good posts.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/12/19 12:44 PM
Hi Gomez, sorry you are here but welcome to the forums! Wow you two have quite the pursuit/ distance dynamic going on. I'll highlight below:

Originally Posted by Gomez
She was a fairly crappy housewife and spent way to much and in response I was cold and unloving towards her. This made her even more miserable so she did less and spent more so I was less inclined to be loving towards her and so we spiralled.

The thing is, when she said she wanted a divorce I knew I'd messed up and did all the things you're not supposed to do (telling her I can change, phone calls, gifts etc) and of course it didn't work.


So she's a crappy wife that you were no doubt thinking about leaving yourself, but because SHE BD'd first it suddenly threw you into thinking you couldn't live without her. Here's the problem, she's still the same wife as before. If you thought she was crappy then you will again. You need to take off the rose-colored glasses that you put on at BD and realize that. If you work your tail off and win her back then 6 months later you're going to be in the same place, resentful of how crappy you think she is and being cold and unloving towards her hoping it'll snap her out of it (it won't). Anyway this was the start of the pursuit/distance cycle. BD is the ultimate form of distancing, so you pursued in a big way in response, which as you now know is the wrong thing to do.

Quote
She says it didn't go physical and I believe her.


Oh man if I had a dollar for every LBS who said that and later learned his W was sleeping around all over the place. Don't believe anything she says right now.

Quote
I don't think they're still in regular contact but she does get the occasional message


Then they're still in contact, you can bet on it. This is what we refer to as an EA (emotional affair) and even if it isn't physical, it is STILL an affair, it is STILL a betrayal.

Quote
So much so I was starting to look forward to a single life with joint shared custody of our two boys. Then about a month ago she had family troubles and I was there for her (we still live together as the sale of our home has collapsed twice). She said she wanted to try again.


So you were starting to distance and what happened? BOOM she wants to try again, so now she is pursuing.

Quote
Except I said I didn't know. I didn't know if I could forgive her all that and if that was the life I wanted. By the time I though it through and said yes, she'd changed her mind.


First of all you did the right thing in saying that you weren't sure. The WAS should be made to do a LOT of work to earn their way back into the marriage. The fact that she "changed her mind" tells me she was never really committed. So you tested her and she failed the test. The key here is you did nothing wrong, SHE did.

Quote
So now I'm back wanting her again


Right, because she distanced and now you're pursuing again. So what's the lesson? STOP PURSUING! You need to distance, and distance some more. You keep distancing until she pursues, and then you KEEP distancing.

Quote
Her biggest hurdle seems to be she dreads me coming home as she's been conditioned over the years to expect me to moan at the state of the house (which she acknowledges I don't now do and ive been so much better but she can't get over it).


New behavior + time = change she can believe in. You haven't given it the time yet. She has to see changed behavior over a long period of time before she'll believe it's not just tricks to get her back.

Quote
A quick question about 180/ detaching. We currently do somethings together like tennis. Should I stop that? It seems counter intuitive to not do things together we enjoy. Also, I do most of the cooking-it would just p!ss her off to say I’ll cook for the boys but not you.


I wouldn't stop any of that for now but don't expect it to change anything. Just keep doing what you're doing. If and when you separate then you can change a lot of that to be more focused on you and the kids.


Quote
Finally I assume when she says things like “ when we have our own places” or “when we’re divorced” I shouldn’t balk but presumably join in and seem enthused by it?


No don't act enthused. Your attitude should be "I want you to stay and work on the M, but if leaving is what you want then I won't stand in your way." So don't be excited, but don't sulk either. If she talks about life after D then just show zero interest.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/12/19 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by Gomez
Hi all. I'm new to the forum and could do with some advice from you lovely people please.

So last year my wife said she wanted a divorce. We've had trouble for years. She was a fairly crappy housewife and spent way to much and in response I was cold and unloving towards her. This made her even more miserable so she did less and spent more so I was less inclined to be loving towards her and so we spiralled.

The thing is, when she said she wanted a divorce I knew I'd messed up and did all the things you're not supposed to do (telling her I can change, phone calls, gifts etc) and of course it didn't work.

Early this year she said that was definitely it and filed. I subsequently found out she'd been messaging a friend of a friend with some very explicit messages. She says it didn't go physical and I believe her. I don't think they're still in regular contact but she does get the occasional message and i think she still thinks about him sometimes, maybe as a potential lover, maybe just as a friend. During this time I got myself together and GAL. So much so I was starting to look forward to a single life with joint shared custody of our two boys. Then about a month ago she had family troubles and I was there for her (we still live together as the sale of our home has collapsed twice). She said she wanted to try again. Hallelujah! Except I said I didn't know. I didn't know if I could forgive her all that and if that was the life I wanted. By the time I though it through and said yes, she'd changed her mind. So now I'm back wanting her again and she's even more determined to push it over the line this time. What do I do? I've bought Divorce Remedies and am reading through it but Idont know where to start. She's given me the ILYBINILWY speach. Her biggest hurdle seems to be she dreads me coming home as she's been conditioned over the years to expect me to moan at the state of the house (which she acknowledges I don't now do and ive been so much better but she can't get over it). She acknowledges I've changed and I'm unrecognizable in a good way (more loving, less snappy, more patient, less controlling etc) but the damage is done. There's so much more detail I could add, so much more background but it would turn into an essay! Happy to answer any more info you need.

Any and all advice welcome!

Thanks


" She says it didn't go physical and I believe her. "

This jumped out at me. Remember, BELIEVE NOTHING SHE SAYS. Nothing. Assume the worst, hope for the best. I had evidence of my W's EA and she still denied it. I also had proof (I found the pictures and had copies!) of her sending nude photos to the OM, and she still denied it. The minute you start to believe anything she says you will start to make bad decisions.

"Her biggest hurdle seems to be she dreads me coming home as she's been conditioned over the years to expect me to moan at the state of the house (which she acknowledges I don't now do and ive been so much better but she can't get over it). She acknowledges I've changed and I'm unrecognizable in a good way (more loving, less snappy, more patient, less controlling etc) but the damage is done."

This was my sitch...to a tee! Gomez, all you can do is be consistent with your 180s on this. The moment you slip up and fall back on this you will be back to square one. For me to 180 on this I had to get myself in the right state of mind on entering the house. I often would come in singing, this made me happy and put my W and D at ease that I wasn't in my brooding, "WHY IS THE HOUSE TRASHED?!" state of mind. But this takes a long time. I think sometimes my W still doesn't trust it and I haven't been like that in over a year and a half!

I saw your follow-up. Why can't you find a new tennis partner? Here is the thing Gomez, WAWs, and WWs in particular, like to cake eat. They like to be able to do whatever they want and still get all the benefits of having a husband. Start to break that. Start to show her what life without you will look like.

As far as cooking. Cook for you and the boys. If she eats it too, fine. But don't "include" her. As in when it is ready, call the boys to eat. If she comes to eat too, don't stop her but start showing her that you are moving forward for you and the boys. SHe's welcome to come along for the ride but you are not going to go out of your way to include her.
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/12/19 01:15 PM
Wow! I want to know which wardrobe you’ve been hiding in!!!! smile I could’ve walked years ago but couldn’t leave her and the kids. There’s some great advice there! I know there’s rose tinted goggles, I just don’t want to break up the family.
Posted By: Destroyd Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/12/19 01:17 PM
Quote
WAWs, and WWs in particular, like to cake eat. They like to be able to do whatever they want and still get all the benefits of having a husband. Start to break that. Start to show her what life without you will look like.


Steve, what is your advice on breaking the habit of giving your W the benefits of having a husband when it is a 180 that you need to prove that you have changed? I think a ton of us on the forum struggle with this.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/12/19 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by Gomez
Wow! I want to know which wardrobe you’ve been hiding in!!!! smile I could’ve walked years ago but couldn’t leave her and the kids. There’s some great advice there! I know there’s rose tinted goggles, I just don’t want to break up the family.


AS is dead on here. I was the same way. Leading up to BD I thought about leaving and Ding her quite often. Then she BD'd me and I went into desperation mode.

Here is the thing. If you are not careful you'll be right back to that. If your W came to you today and said "I am sorry, let's fix this." would you be content with going back to where things were pre-BD? I hope not.

How many of these things can you check off the list:

- Are you in IC?
-Are you GAL? As in out doing things with other people or alone anytime you are not spending time with the boys?
-Have you talked to a D lawyer to make sure you understand what is involved and how you should be preparing?
-Are you actively working on detachment? Not just talking about it. Thinking about it. But actually striving to detach as much as possible?
-Are you reading as much as you can, trying to improve yourself? Not for her or the MR but for yourself?

Gomez, like I said, I was a lot like it sounds like you were. IC was so important to help cement my changes. To change my thinking so that I could be healthy enough to understand why I behaved the way I did, and how to really change it.

This is the opportunity to be the best Gomez you can be. For yourself. For your boys. And for your next R, whether that is with your W or someone else.
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/12/19 04:16 PM


- Are you in IC? Yes- my therapist has been amazing

-Are you GAL? As in out doing things with other people or alone anytime you are not spending time with the boys? Kind of. I go out for drinks with friends. Play PlayStation at home. Go to the gym but to be fair when I get home from work, do the housework she hasn't, make a meal there's not an awful lot of time let for anything else.

-Have you talked to a D lawyer to make sure you understand what is involved and how you should be preparing? Yes

-Are you actively working on detachment? Not just talking about it. Thinking about it. But actually striving to detach as much as possible? Does that mean admitting i still want to have sex with her, rubbing her feet or back, worrying about where she's with, who's she's with, who she's messaging etc? If yes then I'm doing great smile But seriously no, I'm doing all those things, I really need to work on this.


-Are you reading as much as you can, trying to improve yourself? Not for her or the MR but for yourself? Reading not very much ( suggested material would be greatly appreciated). Improving myself- absolutely. I got new clothes in styles I never tried, going to the gym, trying to correct all the traits she said she never liked.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/12/19 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by Destroyd
Quote
WAWs, and WWs in particular, like to cake eat. They like to be able to do whatever they want and still get all the benefits of having a husband. Start to break that. Start to show her what life without you will look like.


Steve, what is your advice on breaking the habit of giving your W the benefits of having a husband when it is a 180 that you need to prove that you have changed? I think a ton of us on the forum struggle with this.


This is where I like to use the analogy of a car.

When you have a car that is running properly, it is important to do routine maintenance. Keep it clean. Change the oil and filters. Rotate the tires. If you fail to do the routine maintenance, eventually you will have a breakdown. Once you have a breakdown, doing the routine maintenance become superfluous. If your engine is blown, what good will it do to change the oil?

Your MR is like that. Doing routine maintenance can help you avoid BD. After BD doing routine maintenance doesn't help anything and is in fact a waste of time. So while it seems intuitive after BD to start doing the things you should have done before (hugging, communicating better, 5 LLs, etc), it isn't going to help at that point. It is too late for those tactics.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/12/19 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by Gomez
( suggested material would be greatly appreciated).


http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/13/19 08:24 AM
Thanks for all the advice so far. A bit more advice needed please. Last night she went out with friends. She was driving so didn't drink. When she got home, I was in the hot tub chilling and she joined me. We ended up having sex in the hot tub. She said afterwards she worries its giving me false hope but tbh I just enjoyed the sex for what it was. My question is really that is probably the polar opposite of detaching- should I be saying no? She was up and out for work this morning so I haven't seen her, but I just intend to not mention it when she gets hone, if she mentions it, play it down. Thoughts please?
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/13/19 11:18 AM
G,

You will get different opinions here but I don’t have a problem with it as long as you realize it means ABSOLUTELY nothing.
Posted By: Destroyd Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/13/19 11:22 AM
I think if she is willing to have sex and you can handle it emotionally, then go for it.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/13/19 01:21 PM
Sex is okay with zero expectations or meaning applied to it.

If you can't do it without attaching significance then don't do it.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/13/19 05:14 PM
^^^What they said^^^

Michele says in one of her books that she thinks it's OK to continue having sex as long as it doesn't cause you emotional trauma. If it does then stop. So basically it's your choice.

Quote
She said afterwards she worries its giving me false hope


Great opportunity to listen and validate. "Yes I can understand why you might think that." Then if she actually asks you if it's giving you false hope you can reply with something like "no I understand your position, I would rather we work on the M but I will honor your decision and I understand that sex isn't going to change your mind."

Quote
but I just intend to not mention it when she gets hone, if she mentions it, play it down.


Exactly, just go on like it never happened.
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/14/19 09:27 PM
I'm really struggling to stay strong and do the detachment/ 180. We had a lovely day at the beach with the youngest, we get on better than we have done in years, we can talk, she laughs when I tease her and vice versa. Shell punch me on the arm (playfully) and she held me saying I was warm and she was trying to warm up. But she's still adamant it's over. Talk about mixed signals. She's never off her phone so I wonder if it's the other guy but I know she isn't seeing him because he isn't local and she's never out long enough (plus I know she goes where she says shes been). Maybe it's the thought of being able to meet up with him or someone else that's driving her to split?
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/15/19 01:10 AM
Why are you playing happy family when she wants out and is most likely in an affair?
Posted By: CSL Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/15/19 01:36 AM
This is something I struggle with as well. The attention feels nice, but it's so confusing. One minute I think we are moving towards reconciling, the next my H is telling me it's too much and he needs space. He is the one who reaches out, but then pulls away when things start to go well. The mixed signals are painful. I feel for you.

It feels terrible, but I finally had to set a boundary with my H. He requested space, so I had to remind him that he asked for space, but he is not taking it. My C told me to tell him that we should refrain from the constant texting, checking in, and checking on one another. Our spouses are cake eating any chance they get. My C reminded me that my H needs to feel the anxiety of not contacting me, of not knowing, and deal with it. I am not giving him the chance to miss me if I'm still acting as if we are together. My H was happy with living on his own, doing his own thing and keeping tabs on me all the time. He is definitely not happy with the boundary I have set. We will see what happens.

This is so hard Gomez. Continue to work on yourself. I wish you the best of luck.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/15/19 02:36 AM
When she wants to reconcile you will know. When she doesn't, you will be confused.
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/15/19 07:13 AM
Because I have no clue what I'm doing! I tried this morning- she thought I was being off with her. "We had a lovely day at the beach yesterday, why are you being off with me now?" How do I respond to that? I have no proof she's still messaging the other guy and she is certainly not going to admit to it. What if I'm wrong? I know shes cake eating but surely our relationship deteriorating if she thinks I'm constantly off with her isnt going to help things?
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/15/19 10:38 AM
G,

I have news for you. Your relationship is already deteriorated. You can't reconcile while she's messaging other men. She's manipulating you right now. She will play nice with you until she solidifies a relationship with OM and then will D you.

Just say " I'm fine maybe just a little tired". You may have a chance here if you can show her YOU are not sure what You want and You need time and space to think.
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/15/19 12:55 PM
It’s a fair point you make. My question is practicalities. She knew straight away I was being short with her. How do I explain a sudden change from cordial to aloof? I can’t say “because you’re messaging other guys”- I have no proof, just a gut feeling and she will say I’m being paranoid.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/15/19 01:02 PM
Originally Posted by Gomez
It’s a fair point you make. My question is practicalities. She knew straight away I was being short with her. How do I explain a sudden change from cordial to aloof? I can’t say “because you’re messaging other guys”- I have no proof, just a gut feeling and she will say I’m being paranoid.


Why are you being "short" with her? Is that what you think detachment is? That's not it. Are you familiar with Sandi's rules?
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/15/19 01:15 PM
So I re-read your first post and am confused. Did she file? Are you currently working on the relationship?
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/15/19 01:31 PM
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by Gomez
It’s a fair point you make. My question is practicalities. She knew straight away I was being short with her. How do I explain a sudden change from cordial to aloof? I can’t say “because you’re messaging other guys”- I have no proof, just a gut feeling and she will say I’m being paranoid.


Why are you being "short" with her? Is that what you think detachment is? That's not it. Are you familiar with Sandi's rules?


Yes- rule 15. Don’t start conversations. Don’t be overly talkative.
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/15/19 01:34 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
So I re-read your first post and am confused. Did she file? Are you currently working on the relationship?


Yes she filed. I want to work on it. She’s decided she’s better off on her own. We still live together as house sale has collapsed twice.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/15/19 01:41 PM
Ok so then why are you playing happy family with her? Why do you have to explain your moods to her? You should be as scarce as scarce can be.
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/15/19 02:05 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Ok so then why are you playing happy family with her? Why do you have to explain your moods to her? You should be as scarce as scarce can be.


We still live together so I don’t want it to be a war zone for the boys. Similarly, if we both play the “go out as much as you can” game it’s the boys that suffer. I did think (mistakenly) that being close would lead to a reconciliation. But similarly, if I do want a reconciliation appearing moody or “off” with her with an explanation of “because you want to D” or similar doesn’t feel like a good tactic either. Don’t get me wrong though, I’ve changed a massive amount and her not at all- if she isn’t willing to change (and I’m not convinced she wants to or thinks she needs to), the marriage won’t last either.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/15/19 02:24 PM
Ok so first off your marriage won’t last because your W has filed. Second off once you’re divorced you will be single parenting so your boys will have to get use to it. It doesn’t have to be a war zone unless you want it to be. I’m glad you realized you can’t nice her back. It’s all about respect.
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/15/19 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Ok so first off your marriage won’t last because your W has filed


I thought that was the whole point of DBing? She said she wanted to try again about a month ago- why is it impossible? I appreciate its highly likely to end in D now but surely the whole point of Michelle’s books is there is still a chance?
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/15/19 02:45 PM
G,

Who said it was impossible? Sure there is a chance. Where in the book does it say pretend to be a happy family?
Posted By: SoTorn Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/15/19 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by Gomez
Originally Posted by LH19
Ok so first off your marriage won’t last because your W has filed


I thought that was the whole point of DBing? She said she wanted to try again about a month ago- why is it impossible? I appreciate its highly likely to end in D now but surely the whole point of Michelle’s books is there is still a chance?


The whole point of DBing is to focus on yourself. To make yourself a better person. You being a better person will impact your children positively.

DBing is essentially working on yourself. Being the best version of yourself, realizing that you will most likely end up single.

DBing properly will get you to a point where you are emotionally detached from your WAS. The improvements in yourself and the distance created may give your spouse a different perspective where they may decide to pursue you and show you that the M is important.

You need to accept that your M is over. Get to a point where you are happy with yourself and only focusing on you and the kids.

There is nothing you can do to save your marriage besides letting go.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/15/19 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by Gomez
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by Gomez
It’s a fair point you make. My question is practicalities. She knew straight away I was being short with her. How do I explain a sudden change from cordial to aloof? I can’t say “because you’re messaging other guys”- I have no proof, just a gut feeling and she will say I’m being paranoid.


Why are you being "short" with her? Is that what you think detachment is? That's not it. Are you familiar with Sandi's rules?


Yes- rule 15. Don’t start conversations. Don’t be overly talkative.


OK well there is a difference between giving her time and space, which you SHOULD be doing, and being cold/ indifferent/ short which you should NOT be doing. The key is you shouldn't be initiating convos, but if she starts one it's OK to reply. And when you do reply, you should be warm and friendly. A lot of people here call it being like a "friendly neighbor". IE, you wouldn't have a serious conversation talk with a neighbor, you would just talk about the weather and such.
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/15/19 09:22 PM
Thanks sotorn and anotherstander. That makes sense. I’m REALLY struggling with the detachment. I understand the theory. When she’s not around, I can give myself all sorts of mental pep talks. But when I’m around her I just can’t see it through. Where the hell do you get that mental toughness from? I just feel so lonely, I really regret not jumping at the chance to try again when she offered it. I just wish I knew what was going on in her head- we get on now better than we have done in such a long time, it doesn’t make sense!
Posted By: Hallzy9 Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/15/19 11:09 PM
Hey Gomez,

I know it seems tough to act happy and positive given your situation. It will get easier. Once you have taken care of your boys I would really recommend getting out of the house and doing things. Start a new sport or hobby if you can. It will help you to take your mind off your W.

Like LH said I think it’s time to stop playing family. She doesn’t want to be M any more and so you shouldn’t let her indulge in family time. Treat her with kindness but try to get to a place where you don’t worry about her thoughts or actions.
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/17/19 10:57 AM
God damn it I keep messing up!!!!!🤬 I had a sales meeting out of town which went really well so I thought I’d call in at home on the way back to the office. She had a friend around for coffee and just said “Checking up on me?”. Completely backfired! Probably doesn’t help I asked who she was messaging last night which turned into a full blown discussion (thankfully not an argument) about the OM and how she’s not in contact with him. The sad thing was I’d decided to stop the distrust and just roll with it. I was genuinely calling in to say hi and give her good news ☹️
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/17/19 11:52 AM
Yep. Set back. She filed for D she doesn’t get to celebrate with you anymore. None of your business who she’s messaging.

Get back up on the horse.
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/18/19 07:15 PM
One for the psychiatrists amongst you. The house is a tip because she’d rather see friends or go out than tidy. She’s never off her phone. So why the hell do I want it to work so much when any logical person would think it a lucky escape?
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/18/19 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by Gomez
God damn it I keep messing up!!!!!🤬 I had a sales meeting out of town which went really well so I thought I’d call in at home on the way back to the office. She had a friend around for coffee and just said “Checking up on me?”. Completely backfired! Probably doesn’t help I asked who she was messaging last night which turned into a full blown discussion (thankfully not an argument) about the OM and how she’s not in contact with him. The sad thing was I’d decided to stop the distrust and just roll with it. I was genuinely calling in to say hi and give her good news ☹️


This is what you should have done with the phone call:

Her: "Hello?"

You: "Hey its me! Just wanted to call to let you know that I am super stoked about the sales meeting I just left. It went really well. I sold them X for a hefty profit, and it will translate into a great commission! Anyway, don't want to keep you from what you were doing, just wanted to share. Gotta run, talk later!"

Then hang-up.

My guess you called. She answered. Her hello sounded like "What do you want?" to your ears. That made you start asking what she was doing. Made her feel checked up on. You double-down on pressure and pursuit by asking who she was messaging last night.

Hello Gomez, let me introduce you to DBing....because the quoted post above IS NOT IT.
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/18/19 07:56 PM
I actually called in at home (ie in person) not a phone call. But your point is well made.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/18/19 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by Gomez
I actually called in at home (ie in person) not a phone call. But your point is well made.


OH! I misunderstood your language. So Gomez, I want to you to look deep down inside....and tell the truth. Were you checking up on her? I mean, calling her on the phone to share the good news could have been done just as easily! Remember, I used to be in your shoes. I know how the LBH's mind thinks. And yes on more than one occasion I checked up on her.

Drop the rope. Let her go to get her back.
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/18/19 08:47 PM
I honestly wasn’t checking up on her. But I was being clingy and needy. I was thinking one day I’ll walk in and she’ll be pleased to see me. Stupid I know. Since then I haven’t asked her where she’s been or about her day. I’ve paid no interest to her phone usage and if she goes to another room I don’t follow or show any interest. I don’t phone, go home during the workday or message unless it’s in response to her.

My biggest question is still about stopping doing things for her. I normally cook for her and the boys. I do my share of tidying the house. I’ll take my turn to load the dishwasher or wash clothes. If I suddenly stop all that, how do I explain it, other than “you want a divorce so I’m not doing it anymore” which will come across as petty and spiteful.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/19/19 06:10 PM
Hi Gomez, I caught your message on Sandi's Reflections and decided to come to your thread. Here's a copy of part of your post you sent me:

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My W and I still live together with our 2 boys as the house sale has fallen through twice. She filed 6 months ago. Throughout the latter years of our R, my wife has said I was cold, unloving and didn’t respect her and I agree this is how I was. So to try to fix it, I tried to be more loving and caring. However, I know she had feelings for a friend of a friend and this went as far as sexting, so an EA. I know it didn’t go physical (I don’t want to say how I know but I know, not think). She’s always on her phone but she says she’s not in contact with him anymore. I’ve seen the last message was a couple of months ago but theoretically she could be deleting them. My question is, do I still treat her as a WW? It seems to me the way to treat a WW is different to a W that has been starved of love and affection for so long.


When I read your introductory post, you described how her not attending to her homemaking duties had really worn on your attitude toward her. (I gather she is not employed.) She spends her time mostly on her phone or spending money. You come home from work and basically do the housework and cooking, b/c she doesn't care to do it. Sounds like another very spoiled W. frown Between being spoiled to no responsibilities and the addiction to cell phones, I am greatly concerned not only for your family, but for many others who need to wake up and see the breakdown this is causing in MR's and families. My first question would be if she was not made to do any chores when she was growing up (spoiled by her parents), and if you didn't know how lazy she was until after you M her? Did you contribute to spoiling her after M, or is she just selfish, lazy, & entitled (which are usually the results of spoiling). Sorry, I just don't have much empathy for healthy women who sit around all day on their phones and let everything else slide. Just wondered when this started.

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She was a fairly crappy housewife and spent way to much and in response I was cold and unloving towards her. This made her even more miserable so she did less and spent more so I was less inclined to be loving towards her and so we spiralled.


It sounds as if the two of you were in a cold war, and nobody was winning. Would it be fair to say the lack of housekeeping originally led to your feelings of disrespect for her? Is there any reason you believe her habits would change if she doesn't get a divorce?

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The thing is, when she said she wanted a divorce I knew I'd messed up and did all the things you're not supposed to do (telling her I can change, phone calls, gifts etc) and of course it didn't work.


Are you saying that you had no idea you would be messing up by treating her coldly and unloving? Why do you suppose her announcement of wanting a D snapped your head around and you suddenly wanted her.......regardless of her crappy housekeeping and overspending?

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I subsequently found out she'd been messaging a friend of a friend with some very explicit messages. She says it didn't go physical and I believe her. I don't think they're still in regular contact but she does get the occasional message and i think she still thinks about him sometimes, maybe as a potential lover, maybe just as a friend.


So, you did confront her about what you found out? She said nothing physical, and that was kind of how things were left, other than an occasional message from her OM? Now you found out about the OM after she said she wanted a D, right? Did you start buying her gifts and showing her affection after you learned about OM?

Okay, so let me just come out and say that your W is still wayward. It does not matter if she had a PA, or not. She was involved in very inappropriate behavior for a M woman. Waywardness is not just about having an affair. It begins in the heart of resentment & disrespect and leads to other negative attitudes and behavior. It didn't come about overnight, and it won't be resolved/recovered overnight. The WW, on her own accord, is seldom motivated to end and start doing that which is the right thing to do. However, she can definitely be motivated by other things, and that's partly what I want to talk about. She will never be motivated to fight for her M, when you are willing to sit back and take whatever leftovers you can get. You have not required anything from her, that I can tell. Were there even any consequences for her sexting, and still having contact with OM? If not, then why should she be concerned about her actions? Better yet, why would she respect you as a man? Whose idea was it to sleep in separate bedrooms? Was this before or after OM? Who initiated sex after separating bedrooms? Was it after you discovered activity with OM?

You and your W have this push-pull thing going on. If one of you want the M, the other one doesn't......or so it may appear. You can't seem to get in the same frame of mind at the same time. First of all, you need to know why your own feelings have run cold, hot, and to not sure of what you want. Was it b/c you discovered another guy was interested in her, or were you concerned you'd be left alone? You were adjusting to the idea of being single, so what changed your feelings? Emotions can be very fickle, just like a cheating wife, so try to figure yourself out and don't let emotions dictate your immediate decisions while you are learning more about what to do.

A lot of what I tell you may sound pro-divorce, but actually, I'm not. It just takes me a while to get it all said, and for the H to start seeing the picture. If you want the MR to work, then you need to know what isn't effective with a WW and what is. I can tell you this much, she doesn't tell you she wants a D in order to signal you to turn on the affection & romance. Maybe in the past she would have expressed her unhappiness, but I doubt she would have jumped straight for D, unless she was dabbling somewhere else. When OM didn't prove to be a solid Plan A, then she would lean back toward you to secure her Plan B. She did not want to work on the MR, nor did she suddenly realize how much she loved you. I hate to tell you, but I think she's playing games with you, and like most H's you are completely confused at her giving mixed signals. I suggest you stop trying to read her signals, b/c they are not honest. In order for this M to have a chance at being saved, you need to adapt a new method that may sound & feel totally opposite of what you thought one would do in this case.

To save time, you can read some threads where I wrote about the WW, her mindset, and what the H should/shouldn't do. Hopefully, it will answer some questions you may have. There are several, and here is the first one:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Whenever there has been behavior that indicates a wayward heart, the H should have a no nonsense policy where he tolerates none of her b.s.; ping-pong indecisiveness about the MR; sense of entitlement; texting/messaging any other men; disrespectful treatment/behavior, and anything else he finds to be unacceptable in a MR. Her values/standards seem to be lacking at the moment. Therefore, you need to double down on your own standards, instead of trying to watch her signals in order to judge your next move. One reason you need to know your own values, is so that you have a guide to set boundaries.

When dealing with a WW, one of the most necessary things the H needs to learn is setting effective boundaries. There is link in Cadet's first post about boundaries. Please read it, b/c many people assume they know what boundaries are, but they do not grasp how or why to set boundaries, the purpose, or how to enforce them. Boundaries are necessary in protecting your feelings from anyone who does not show you respect.

Waywardness calls for tough love, and if you are a guy who is trying to nice back his WW, my advice is to toughen up and start respecting yourself. I can tell you this much. She does not value her MR or her family, or she wouldn't be dabbling in the game of sexual thrills........and that is exactly what she is doing! Flirty emails, nude photos, sexting, phone sex.........whatever she's doing........it's for the sexual thrill. But what some people don't know is that it is very addictive, and the more she does....the more she'll need, to get the thrill. It's just like a drug. Sadly, there's no telling how long she has conducted this type of activity. These men are not her "friends", and don't kid yourself into thinking she can just continue talking to some guy like he's just a friend, after they have had phone sex. He's not interested if she doesn't want to play along. And, furthermore, she isn't that interested in just being a friend, either. She'll move on to someone else. So, it's time that you get real about this situation. ((hugs))

I've got to stop here, but I'll post again. Can't get it all down in one post. smile
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/20/19 04:11 PM
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-Are you actively working on detachment? Not just talking about it. Thinking about it. But actually striving to detach as much as possible? Does that mean admitting i still want to have sex with her, rubbing her feet or back, worrying about where she's with, who's she's with, who she's messaging etc? If yes then I'm doing great smile But seriously no, I'm doing all those things, I really need to work on this.


The people who were successful in getting through this most awful period, have said that GAL is absolutely key to detaching and finding happiness & emotional strength to press forward.......with or without your W.

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A bit more advice needed please. Last night she went out with friends. She was driving so didn't drink. When she got home, I was in the hot tub chilling and she joined me. We ended up having sex in the hot tub. She said afterwards she worries its giving me false hope but tbh I just enjoyed the sex for what it was. My question is really that is probably the polar opposite of detaching- should I be saying no? She was up and out for work this morning so I haven't seen her, but I just intend to not mention it when she gets hone, if she mentions it, play it down. Thoughts please?


Why didn't you get out of the hot tub when she got in it? Boy, that would have sent a clear message you weren't interested in anything from a wayward. Maybe I've missed one or two, but I don't recall a single male poster telling a newcomer that he shouldn't have sex with his wayward W......or any other type of W. The forum ladies usually keep quiet, except for me. So, if you have a wayward W, does it justify having sex just for the sake of enjoying sex? Obviously, the men think so. IMHO, it can get real complicated. Sex is one of main things that a WW uses to temp check her H. Makes no difference if he enjoys it without any strings attached (which I don't think a LBH really does, in the first place), b/c she is manipulating him. Whether he initiates or she does, he's going to start wondering if this is "a good sign". Oh, I've heard the same excuse dozens of time from newcomers........"I had no expectations". Oh, really? Wasn't it you that were confused at her mixed signals? That's what I'm saying here. Then, there are the stories where the WW gets pregnant by OM, and she has to make sure she covers herself.......just in case things don't work out with OM. Hello, sex with LBH! So, if hubby gets suspicious, she can say, "Yes, don't you remember the night in the hot tub? Of course it's your baby!" smirk

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She said afterwards she worries its giving me false hope


Well, there you go. And you are already thinking what to do if she mentions it. Oddly enough, the very next day you posted that you were really struggling to stay strong & detached.....and having mixed signals. So, go figure.

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How do I explain a sudden change from cordial to aloof? I can’t say “because you’re messaging other guys”- I have no proof, just a gut feeling and she will say I’m being paranoid.


Having sex and playing like happy family on the beach is more than just being cordial, don't you think? Of course she's going to notice if you suddenly go into this aloof stance. The problem I have seen common in LBH's (with NGS) is that they don't seem to know how to balance very well. They can't find the middle ground. If we suggest they are being too involved, then they jump into the extreme opposite and act like a polar bear.

Let me ask you something about your personal views about marriage. Is it okay for your W to have inappropriate communication or an EA with other men, and you will be fine having sex and continue to play happy couple/family when she happens to be in a good mood? If so, then I won't bring it up again. But if you are grasping at the crumbs she's throwing your way, b/c you are afraid to lose her, then please see it for what it really is. I can speak from WW experience when I say that there is much more that should be required in order for her to get back in your good graces again. My second thread on WW's is about not letting the WW back too easily. Having sex and a good day at the beach, is not work for her. But it is a short preview of how easily the WW can sliver under the door to get back into the MR, without having to change her wayward mindset or behavior. It doesn't last, b/c the root issue has not changed.

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Yes- rule 15. Don’t start conversations. Don’t be overly talkative.


It doesn't say you cannot speak or talk. Think about the LBS who is trying to hold their partner's attention/interest captive (so to speak) by drawing them into conversations. It can be a form of manipulation, and some LBS's try to keep the conversation going on & on & on.....as a means of emotionally holding their partner (think of phone calls). However, this rule does not mean the spouse cannot speak to the partner. It doesn't mean he can say nothing! It does not mean he should act cold, rude, sullen, or whatever. I see how it could be misunderstood, so asking questions about something is the thing to do. smile

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Yes she filed. I want to work on it. She’s decided she’s better off on her own.

Similarly, if we both play the “go out as much as you can” game it’s the boys that suffer. I did think (mistakenly) that being close would lead to a reconciliation. But similarly, if I do want a reconciliation appearing moody or “off” with her with an explanation of “because you want to D” or similar doesn’t feel like a good tactic either. Don’t get me wrong though, I’ve changed a massive amount and her not at all- if she isn’t willing to change (and I’m not convinced she wants to or thinks she needs to), the marriage won’t last either.


Okay, what you say makes sense, until you realize you are dealing with a WW. It's all about her not feeling respect for you as a man, or as her H. That's where you need to start. Nobody has told you to act moody or sullen. That was your interpretation. That was you jumping to the opposite end of the spectrum.

Have you read the WW series yet? It talks about how a man deals with a WW. Trying to play happy family, having sex, fun days on the beach, taking vacations, and acting as if she has not betrayed the MR and that she wants out........is NOT how to reconcile properly with a WW. Yes, you want to work on the M, but she doesn't. When someone doesn't want you, then you don't keep pursuing, thinking it will change their mind. At least, it doesn't work with a woman who doesn't respect you. Without respect, her ability to feel those in-love emotions and admiration is gone. In marriage, a woman's desire is emotionally tied to the respect she feels for her H. Men aren't built that way, but women are. So, you can play around it all day long, but the bottom line is she doesn't admire you as a man. How do you change that? First, start respecting yourself as a man.
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/20/19 05:16 PM
Thanks for all that advice Sandi. Wow, that's a lot to take in and its hard to know where to start with a reply! smile

So the sitch between us is generally that she doesn't show signs of stepping up her game in terms of being a housewife (she works p/t BTW) and we're getting on better because I'm not picking her up on it (I used to moan a lot about the state of the house and she's said its one of things she cant get over (I know this gives her a very easy out to do F-all!)). We do get on so much better because of this, but the fact she still wants to D suggests if she isn't still in contact with the OM (she's sworn on the boys lives she isn't FWIW) he's still in her thoughts. Maybe not but that's my gut feel. Do I assume she is still messaging him and behave accordingly or something else?

My understanding now is I need to 180, but this isn't the freezing cold approach I thought it was, more stop being there so much. My question is if I stop (for example) making her a coffee when I have one or going to the beach with her and the boys or going in the hot tub with her or similar, she's going to notice (yes I know that is the point) and ask why I'm being off with her. Why have you stopped making me a coffee, or spending time with your sons and I, or why do you refuse to help me when I ask for your help? How do I answer that question? I sure cant say "because you're still messaging the OM" because I'll get "you're paranoid, its in the past, you need to get over this" etc. In other words, surely there has to be some justification for the "tough love"? Do I still treat her as wayward even though she now says she isn't?

I've been frank with her and just asked her to be honest with me about the OM. She knows if were to have any sort of R, I wouldn't tolerate any communication with them but since we're already D'ing she can be honest and tell me if she is in comms with him, intends to meet up etc- I dont approve of it and I certainly wouldn't tolerate a relationship with it but I rather know than have it happen behind my back. To specifically answer your question, if she said she did want to communicate with him, meet up, have sex with him, whatever then there would be no 'us', I would be done. Maybe this is why she wouldn't tell me if she was? She has apologised about the messaging, that it was stupid, she regrets it, it was just a thrill etc etc. I probably should have busted her balls (metaphorically speaking grin) more than I did. Apologies if this sounds incredibly naïve!

Which leads nicely on to boundaries. I've read the threads, I think I understand them. I just have no clue how to implement them. For example, she is lazy around the house. She spends to much time on her phone. I cant control that so how do I turn that into a boundary for me?

She's away with my youngest boy at her sisters for a week whilst I have the eldest. I haven't called her or messaged her yet (she went on Thursday). I'm trying to use the time to read, get perspective and start the GAL.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/20/19 05:55 PM
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I’m REALLY struggling with the detachment. I understand the theory. When she’s not around, I can give myself all sorts of mental pep talks. But when I’m around her I just can’t see it through. Where the hell do you get that mental toughness from? I just feel so lonely, I really regret not jumping at the chance to try again when she offered it.


I ended my previous post by saying you start by respecting yourself as a man. Look at the above quote. This is not, IMHO, a self-respecting man who thinks he should have jumped at the chance to take his wayward W's offer. Why do you think so little of yourself that you would not expect her to make necessary changes before you'd ever consider staying M to her? You said the attention feels good. Well, so what? She's giving other men attention and making them feel good, too. I go back to what I said about her temp checking you. This woman is nowhere close to wanting to change her ways, b/c she knows she can have you back without doing any changes. Trust me, it will take more than a little hot time in the tub and a day at the beach. That is nothing for her! Nothing! Changing her mindset & behavior patterns, and respecting her M........that's the real work for a WW. Ending all her inappropriate communication with OM.....cold turkey......that's real work. And guess what? When she gets SERIOUS about wanting to save her MR......she'll do whatever is necessary, and you will see her change. Until then, you aren't going to persuade her to reconsider ending the M, unless you are prepared to do what you should have done when she first said she wanted a D. Currently, you aren't there, but hopefully you are listening to us and will be able to learn how to change for a stronger version of yourself. I hope you don't take my words offensively, b/c I'm not trying to insult you. I simply want to help by sharing what I've learned.

You have to fight for the M, but you do in a way most LBH's with NGS resist until it's too late. Yes, I'm talking about tough love. You have to be willing and ready to give her up, if you hope to get her back. Don't settle for what she's doing, just b/c you turn to mush when she comes around you. Do you have any idea of what I'm referring to as tough love?

You think it's hard to detach, so I'll tell you what do. Just forget about detaching, until you learn how to apply tough love. I had to apply tough love to a couple of my kids and I wasn't detached from the love I felt for them.......but I loved them enough it mattered what kind of people they turned out to be. So, I had to let them learn there are consequences for choices/actions. There are actually men out there in the world who love their W's very much and have to use tough love methods. It wouldn't be "tough" if there were no feelings of love. What about your boys? Will you be able to apply tough love, if they rebel against the right thing to do? Will you hold them accountable for their actions? I wonder, b/c you have not held your WW accountable, or appear to expect more in a W than she is currently giving you. Frankly, I don't think this woman has magical powers that bewitch you. I think you are too afraid of losing her, and that fear has cost you her respect. Until you change your mental attitude, you will not have the MR....or love, from a woman that you want or deserve.

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I thought that was the whole point of DBing? She said she wanted to try again about a month ago- why is it impossible? I appreciate its highly likely to end in D now but surely the whole point of Michelle’s books is there is still a chance?


Yes, there's a chance, but only if you change into a stronger man. Women don't want a H who is weaker than she is, so why do you think she tests him? Your W tested you, and you flunked. Try a different method. You can't nice a WW back. Am I saying to be a jerk? No, I am saying to find your b@lls and stop being like melty-cheese stick. No woman wants a melty-cheese stick for a husband.

She already knows you regret not jumping at her offer, b/c she's temp checked you. So now, you need to get a firm grip and start enforcing some boundaries. You are the faithful spouse, right? No inappropriate behavior with other women? Know your values and standards and don't compromise your integrity. Don't drop your standards, just b/c she has dropped hers. Study the boundaries link. Set you boundaries and be prepared to enforce those boundaries if they were dishonored. If the offending party does not experience some type of consequences, then it is unlikely they will start honoring your boundaries. It's that simple. So, be true to yourself.

The one thing a WW respects more than anything......is strength. If she sees you are a man of honor and strength, she'll want to be with you......if she has any remaining brain cells left in her head. Holding her accountable for her actions is critical, if this M has a chance for a future together. Calling her out if she treats you disrespectfully (even though you are in-house separated, bad treatment is not tolerated), enforcing boundaries, being prepared to take the next step toward ending the M......if she continues her current direction. These are a few ways you can show tough love. Sure, she may act mad or whatever at the time, but stick to your guns. She may NEVER admit it, but she will respect you if you do it in a way that represents strength & honor, instead of just being an a$$. Know what I mean?

She wants out of the M? Why is she still staying with you? What's her holdup? I don't think she's as ready as she claims. I think she wants one foot out and one foot inside. It's easy cake eating for her. The WW will eat lots & lots of cake if you serve it up. Playing happy family is serving cake. Having sex is serving cake, IMHO......and may be a life sentence if she sleeps with some other guy. Taking family vacations with the WW, is serving cake. Now, stay balanced when you start thinking about other ways she's getting cake. Whenever living under the same roof, there is going to be a certain amount of cake eating.... no way around it. In other words, she is going to benefit from being legally M to you and living in the marital home. Whether she sleeps with you or not, she benefits from the M. See what I mean? I point this out to explain that that is usually why a WW stays under the same roof or legally M once she gives the bomb drop. She wants to continue benefiting from his provisions, until she secures something else. Having sex while separated, is just another benefit for some women, without the responsibilities and honor that should come in the MR.

Please don't take any drastic measures without checking with the board first. I'm merely trying to show you a few things, okay? Don't get crazy and think you can't sit at the same dinning table or ride in the same car. Stay balanced here. ((hugs))
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/20/19 07:59 PM
Thanks for the guidance and absolutely nothing taken personally smile

So how does all this work in real terms? Take the OM for example: I can’t forbid her to communicate with him: a) that’s controlling and b) I have no way of knowing if she does it or not. My terms of continuing the R would be no contact, but she doesn’t want that anyway. Since I have no way of knowing who she’s messaging, it seems I can’t set boundaries around it. With the state of the house, walking in and complaining would be being an a$$ and rile her the wrong way. I don’t have any leverage (for want of a better word) in terms of containing the R so what do I say?

Stopping doing nice things for her is an option, but with the boys “tough love” is being cruel to be kind: they think we’re the enemy because we try to teach them right from wrong. How does this work with a WW?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/20/19 08:26 PM
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So the sitch between us is generally that she doesn't show signs of stepping up her game in terms of being a housewife (she works p/t BTW)


Ah, well that may explain the IHS. Has she tried to get you to finance her a place to live? Don't agree to anything without first checking with a lawyer.

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(I used to moan a lot about the state of the house and she's said its one of things she cant get over (I know this gives her a very easy out to do F-all!)). We do get on so much better because of this, but the fact she still wants to D suggests if she isn't still in contact with the OM (she's sworn on the boys lives she isn't FWIW) he's still in her thoughts. Maybe not but that's my gut feel. Do I assume she is still messaging him and behave accordingly or something else?


Sadly, a WW will swear on her kids lives or her mother's grace, etc......but it's lie & deceive. That's her mantra while she is wayward and contacting any man who is not related to her.

Consider something. Are you really getting along better as a result of you dropping the complaining about her crappy housekeeping........or is b/c you have pretty much let her do whatever the heck she wants, basically releasing her of any wifely and motherly duties? I strongly suggest the latter. Your suspicious feelings that OM is still in her head is closer to the truth than you may realize. I spoke yesterday about how this becomes an addiction. (If you'll research PEA's it will explain the science behind it.) Just as with any other addiction, if she quits she will experience a sense of withdrawal. Every time she gets some type of contact with OM (written, orally, photo, social media, indirectly/directly) it acts as a "hit" and it cancels out any ground covered when she was going through withdrawals. I know it sounds crazy. I had never heard about it, until I came to the board. I certainly went through the withdrawals, myself.

Until your WW shows remorse, or at the least, presents authentic desire to get help in reconciliation......I think you need to assume she still has a wayward mindset. Even if she's pulled back on her previous inappropriate behavior, she's still thinking like a wayward. How do I know? You are still living IHS, right? Has she ever gone to you and expressed how wrong she was and how sorry she was for the pain and mistrust she's caused? If not, then I would assume her feelings have not changed. She only works part time, so she has a lot of time on her hands (which is not used in house keeping). With so many modern apps available these days, it would be pretty remarkable if she stopped cold turkey without any help from some type of information that gave guidance & encouragement. Most times, the WW has to experience the downfall of any fantasies she holds about getting a D and living the single life. Reality can be a tough teacher, but effective. Another reason for not serving a steady diet of cake to the WW.

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My question is if I stop (for example) making her a coffee when I have one or going to the beach with her and the boys or going in the hot tub with her or similar, she's going to notice (yes I know that is the point) and ask why I'm being off with her. Why have you stopped making me a coffee, or spending time with your sons and I, or why do you refuse to help me when I ask for your help? How do I answer that question? I sure cant say "because you're still messaging the OM" because I'll get "you're paranoid, its in the past, you need to get over this" etc. In other words, surely there has to be some justification for the "tough love"? Do I still treat her as wayward even though she now says she isn't?


You can't just go by what she says, nor by just what she does. Her attitude, words, and actions must harmonize, in order for you to believe she is sincere about not being wayward. She has to get her heart right and have a sweet & respectful behavior toward her H. I'm afraid you have barely seen the tip of what's really going on, but that's not to say it can't change. If I thought otherwise, I would not be spending my Saturday talking to a LBH. smile The WW can be quick with comeback words. Just understand that tough love from her H was justified the second she stepped over the line and started communicating with men in that fashion. You are not required to justify to her why you are changing how you respond or handle the situation that now exists in the MR, thanks to her bad choices. Look, she knows, okay? Nobody knows any better than the WW that she deserves to be kicked out on her rear. (I'm not telling you to kick her out.) I'm just saying that she knows she is wrong. In her heart, she knows the truth. She knows she has and still continues to be deceitful.

To answer your question about making her a coffee.........do you make one cup at a time? If you make a pot full at a time, then continue doing it. That's not to mean you should carry her a cup a coffee, unless she does personal things for you. If she does, then don't make a big deal about carrying her a cup. I wouldn't like serve her a cup of coffee in bed, since she's sleeping in a separate bedroom, but that's just my opinion. If she asks why you stopped, then simply say, "I haven't received a copy of the ground rules for IHS". You could say something safer, like, "I don't think spoiling comes under IHS". Don't say it with an angry tone, nor say it jokingly. Use a stoic face and tone of voice. Will it pi$$ her off? Probably, but anything that doesn't serve her sense of entitlement will do the same. I don't think you should go out of your way to serve her, nor go out of your way to make her mad. I just think people who have a sense of entitlement, or as I like to call them.....spoiled, believe you SHOULD go out of your way to serve them. Whether you spoiled her willingly or she pressured it, you can stop doing it. When something is spoiled, it stinks!

If she throws your sons in your face when you aren't spending time around the house or with her, then tell her not to worry about how you spend your time or your relationship with the boys. Don't say it in a rude manner, but say it firmly enough she knows to lay off that type of manipulation. That's what it is, you know. You are so used to it that you can already anticipate some of her reactions.

If she is arrogant enough to ever tell you that you "need to get over it", then tell her that nothing would give you more relief than to see her making amends and the two of you working to put the MR on the road to recovery. Again, say it firmly but in a calm, confident and respectful tone. Don't be self-righteous, but don't let her get off by sounding as if the problem lies with you. She's done nothing that I've seen that looks like a WW who wants to do the right thing. She has controlled you all these years, and she wants to continue controlling. As long as she can manipulate you with her crafty use of words, she won't respect you. You don't have to accuse her of messaging the OM. Just learn to say reply to her needless questions in a way that gives her the message you are not stupid, and you won't accept a sorry excuse for a wife. (Well, not in those exact words.) Remember what I said about staying balanced in your thoughts and how you see yourself approaching her. I don't know how you hear my written words, but don't bite back at her just b/c she asks why you didn't bring her a cup of coffee. Find the middle ground, while you are learning a new way. Don't jump off into the deep end today. Learn to swim a little bit, first. Most of all, don't let her trap you into a relationship discussion, b/c you aren't ready for it. When you say something, keep moving.

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To specifically answer your question, if she said she did want to communicate with him, meet up, have sex with him, whatever then there would be no 'us', I would be done. Maybe this is why she wouldn't tell me if she was? She has apologised about the messaging, that it was stupid, she regrets it, it was just a thrill etc etc. I probably should have busted her balls (metaphorically speaking grin) more than I did. Apologies if this sounds incredibly naïve!


It would have helped, if you'd told us this in the first post. You said she told you she wanted to try again, but you didn't say all that other stuff was included. Actually, I still don't believe her, unless there is more you haven't told. Something just doesn't ring true. She changed her mind too fast/easily, which sounds like it was a temp check originally. She still wants a divorce, and she appears to be playing games and more temp checking. What about you and not knowing if you can forgive her? See, this goes back to that push-pull syndrome you two have.

Yes, you should have busted her b@lls, I agree.

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Which leads nicely on to boundaries. I've read the threads, I think I understand them. I just have no clue how to implement them. For example, she is lazy around the house. She spends to much time on her phone. I cant control that so how do I turn that into a boundary for me?


You tell me. What are you willing to tolerate and what means the most? Does an orderly house mean more, or living with her laziness? Does she even know how to organize and clean a house? Some gals don't get experience before marriage, so if the H does it for them......why learn? If she's on her phone and shopping most of the time, my guess is she doesn't want to spend her time cleaning. Would it be worth your money to pay someone to come in and clean the house? Maybe, take the money out of the house running budget to pay the cleaners. But, you said she spent lots of money, so she'll ignore a budget, unless you set up new house rules. Excuse me, I mean new financial guidelines. This would be a good time to tell her that if you two are going to be IHS then some financial guidelines need to be observed. After all, she wants to be on her own, yet she's living there while you finance everything. What about equality? She should pay for half, don't you think? smirk

When setting boundaries, you have to think in terms of protecting you......not so much about controlling the other person. As for consequences for her not honoring your boundaries, it has to be something that comes as the result of dishonoring your boundary and the protecting action you took. In other words, the objective is not you punishing her, but enforcing protection for your feelings, moral standards, etc. For instance, if your boundary was "I will not stay in an open MR", and she would not stop an affair.....then you would divorce to protect yourself from the destruction of an open M. Maybe she would feel the sting of the action you took, maybe she wouldn't. The point is that you decided you would not live that way, so you took action to protect yourself. She had to deal with the results of your action. Make sense?

You know what is most important to your happiness and peace of mind. You have values and principles by which you live your life. I think that's where you have to start. Knowing what you absolutely cannot tolerate in your life, and what you will do to protect yourself from the pain, aggravation, contempt, unrest, or whatever feelings are experienced from that type of situation. It's similar to property boundaries. We don't let just let someone come on our property and start causing damage to our home or land. We have laws in place to protect us, but we have to take action. Make sense?

The thing about your sitch that concerns me is how you both want what appears to be unavailable at the time. Funny how that works with people, don't you agree? If she approached you today, wanting to reconcile, how would you feel this time? Would you take her at face value, or have some conditions you needed to see? I'm just asking, b/c I think you need to think deeply about it.
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/20/19 11:32 PM
Just a quick reply before I turn in (will reply fully tomorrow) about the EA/ OM.

She met him at a housewarming party. They began messaging and then sexting after that. I know whilst I was on a fishing trip with the boys she basically put it on a plate for him and he stood her up (I saw the messages before and after). After that, we had our tete-a-tete and she said she regretted it, been stupid etc. However, I know she has met up with him since (she claims just as friends and her messages to him confirmed that, she made it clear to him nothing would happen that day) but after that he went quiet on her again and she’s now said she’s realised he only wanted one thing so she’s not messaging him. Like I said, I saw messages between them that corroborated her story but I can’t do that anymore so I can’t be sure what’s being said between them if anything. I have another fishing trip with the boys later this month and I do worry what will happen when my back is turned but I guess there’s nothing I can do to stop her if she wants to.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/21/19 11:51 AM
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She met him at a housewarming party. They began messaging and then sexting after that. I know whilst I was on a fishing trip with the boys she basically put it on a plate for him and he stood her up (I saw the messages before and after). After that, we had our tete-a-tete and she said she regretted it, been stupid etc. However, I know she has met up with him since (she claims just as friends and her messages to him confirmed that, she made it clear to him nothing would happen that day) but after that he went quiet on her again and she’s now said she’s realised he only wanted one thing so she’s not messaging him. Like I said, I saw messages between them that corroborated her story but I can’t do that anymore so I can’t be sure what’s being said between them if anything. I have another fishing trip with the boys later this month and I do worry what will happen when my back is turned but I guess there’s nothing I can do to stop her if she wants to.


It really angers me that women seem to believe they can have inappropriate contact with another guy and then try to pass it off to their H that they are "just friends" afterwards. This is not acceptable, and the H should make it clear that there will be no future contact or the M is over.

Before my EA, I was contacting guys on line (long story). I never met up with anyone in person. They wanted to, but I would make up some excuse that I couldn't get away. It wasn't long before I had a long list of guys I would "chat" with every night. In a short time, this led to an EA with OM. It was the thrill I had not felt in a very long time, and it was intoxicating. It embarrasses me like you couldn't believe to even type these words out. I know how it affected me and my M, and I was a very straight-laced type of woman who previously would had looked down on anyone who participated in such behavior. So, yes, I was one of those women who "was not the type to get involved with OM". Enough time and under the right circumstances, I think any woman who has unfilled emotional needs can become vulnerable to some other guy's sweet words & attention. Once she crosses that line, it gets easier to do other things.

The first time my H found my messaging, he confronted me. I couldn't even look at him, and I cried. He told me to delete all the contacts, and I did. You would have thought I was cutting off my right arm when I was deleting those contacts. My nice-guy H was sweet and did not come down on me hard, as he should have. The second time he discovered my messaging to OM, I saw a side of my H I had never seen before, and he wasn't sweet about any of it! He was furious, but he did not tell me to leave or that he would D me. If he would have told me he was dumping me, b/c he deserved a wife who gave him the love he needed.........I honestly believe it would have jerked my head out of my a$$ into the reality I had caused. But, that didn't happen and I continued the EA.

Didn't have all the apps that's available today, but I got a burner phone and took the EA deeper under ground, and my H & I had no connection. We just existed under the same roof. We never said we were separated or anything. We had not slept together in years, so we just avoided each other. We tried to go on with our lives, but I was living a double life with my EA. I was preparing to leave and get an apartment, which I saw as a step toward moving in with OM later. I went as far as to tell one of my adult kids that their dad & I was having problems. My plan was to ease OM into the lives of my family, and thought they would eventually accept him. But, I was in for a shock. One of my other kids had accidentally discovered OM & my messaging on the computer. WW's can be in such a thick fog, they do stupid things.......like, forgetting to close out the screen, delete computer history, etc. Plus, while my adult daughter was on my home computer, OM thought it was me and his message popped up on the screen! Now, how stupid is that? Anyway, my daughter confronted me........and I knew I was busted. My fantasy crumbled. I found the DB board, and had wonderful mentors that gave me solid information about how affairs (or any type of inappropriate activity of that nature) are addictive. I knew in the bottom of my heart that I did not love this OM, but I wanted to feel that excitement. It was hard to let go.

I had a ton of negative feelings about my MR, and was not ready to commit to it. Finally, one of my mentors had me to just focus on ending all contact with OM. She explained what I could expect. There was something said that really hit hard. She asked if I could just do the right thing. I was raised to do the right thing, so her question pierced my heart. She pretty much held my hand as I focused, not on my M, but just ending my EA. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done, and it embarrasses me to admit that b/c, I've had some tough experiences in my life. You see, the whole EA had fueled my ego......which was starving, so I didn't want to give up the source of that emotional high. I felt as if I had cut my life line. Yeah, I know I am sounding dramatic, but it felt pretty drastic while going through it. It took me months to get through the withdrawals. I was so depressed and had no energy, no interest in my home/family or M, and my future felt so empty & hopeless. I don't know where I would be today if it had not been for the information I received from the board at that point in my life. That's why I'm still here today, trying to help newcomers as they struggle with their own WW's. BTW, my H & I are still together. Piecing was hard, and I had a lot of work to do on my heart, but when my heart got right then I was finally able to do the work my H needed to see me put forth in our relationship.

My H changed after that period in our lives. He is no longer the H with NGS, at least not in his relationship with me. Anyone can change for the better, if they really want it.
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/21/19 12:50 PM
Thanks again Sandi. Your scenario sounds very very similar to mine. My W was always straight as an arrow and I’d stake my life she never did anything like this when we were happy. She always said if I cheated on her I was cheating on the boys too. She thought people who had affairs were scum. But things haven’t been right for years now and very similar to you she admitted it was the ego boost, the flattery, the buzz, the fix. She said at first she wouldn’t send him any pics but once she’d done one it became easier and they became more graphic.

She has admitted she fancies him but knows he is a POS and there is no long term there. She’s even said many times to me, friends and family that she can see us getting back together in the future. WTF???? Maybe she just wants to have some fun, some meaningless sex and then come back to me when she’s done. I’ve said it won’t happen.

Everything you have said rings true with her. The depression, the lack of energy and drive. I think the guy is a player and probably only wanted some guilt free no strings sex and deep down she thinks the same (at least that’s what she said, don’t know if she truly believes that).

Any advice how I deal with the thoughts she may be with him whilst I am away with the boys fishing? Just the thought of it makes me feel sick.
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/22/19 01:49 AM
Okay massive update here. Before she was sexting the OM, she actually liked his BF but he had a girlfriend. Just found a load of new recent messages to the BF. He’s split up with his GF and she’s now messaging him! She doesn’t know I’ve seen the messages. How do I deal with this when she gets back?
Posted By: joejoe1 Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/22/19 03:59 AM
Gomez,

It's time!!!!!! Time to let go, drop the rope, detach with love. You are too wrapped up in her to fix and love yourself. You have to love yourself, more than the craziness she is carrying on with.

How do you deal with it? Show her you won't tolerate it. Start to distance yourself. You don't need words, you need actions.

You need to research tough love. It has nothing to do with being cruel. It has everything to do with not allowing disrespect and respecting yourself.

Get the book, "love must be tough", by James Dobson.

Reread what Sandi said, about, if her husband had did certain things, it would of jerked her out of her fantasy. She mentioned what her husband actions were a few times, and focus on her actions when you reread her post to you.
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/22/19 06:20 AM
Thanks Joejoe. Dropping the rope and tough love is a given. I was more talking about specifics. Do I tell her I know what she’s been doing or is knowing for myself all I need? Do I lose my sh!t and tell her what a lying, cheating wh*re I think she is or do I simply detach without anger or fanfare and go back to looking after me and the boys. Do I tell her not to even think about meeting up with him whilst I’m away or do I go with a “do what you want I don’t give a sh!t anymore” attitude?

I’m not as upset as I was the first time I found out. This time I already thought it was happening, it just confirmed my gut feeling was right and helped me make sense of why we couldn’t make it work. Doesn’t me I don’t loathe her for it though!
Posted By: Hallzy9 Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/22/19 07:51 AM
Hey Gomez, sorry I don’t remember every detail of your sitch. Are you still sleeping in the MBR. If not, take the MBR back. Either way tough love should be used, especially if you have proof. Take her shyt and move it out of the MBR. If she asks why, “I will not share my bed with a cheater.”

Filing for D would be the harshest form of tough love but you may not want to do that currently. If not, don’t put up with her shyt. She is showing immense disrespect towards you. Do her no favors. Have a PMA and don’t act cold to her, but start to distance yourself from her. You should not be easily available to her right now. Go GAL as much as possible and show her that you don’t need her in your life. You deserve better.
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/22/19 08:32 AM
Hi hallzy,

I moved out of the MBR some time ago- the bed in the guest room is bigger and softer and there’s none of her crap in there. Should I take in back just as a point of principle or remain as we are?

FYI she filed 6 months ago.

As I said to Sandi, I didn’t bust her balls the first time I found out, maybe I should now?
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/22/19 10:38 AM
So given that she is currently away, I figure I wait until she returns before having a conversation. I plan to say something like

"Before you went away, I asked you to be honest with me about guys you were messaging. I now know you haven't done that. I'm not willing to discuss what I know or how:frankly it doesn't matter. What matters is you haven't shown the respect that I, our relationship or our sons deserve. So I'm done. I don't want to spend time with you anymore and you are free to do whatever you want with whomever you want so long as it does not happen in our home. I want to get the house sold ASAP so we can be physically separate"

I thought about adding "I am still open to making this marriage work if you were willing to show respect and regret, cut off all contact with the other guys and work at the marriage with me. Until then, I will assume you dont want to and proceed as I have said" but not sure.

Thoughts?
Posted By: ballast Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/22/19 10:46 AM
Gomez...so correct me if I'm wrong...she filed 6 months ago and now you are planning to tell her "you are done"?

Your most recent post...dude I mean if she's filed that long ago, what's the point in saying what you just wrote? Better play to me would be that if you know the above to be true, then instead of telling her, just take the actions on your end to move along to your new life.

Again maybe I'm mis-reading, but given the timing what you plan to say seems weak to me. also if she has filed, do you not have an agreement that already defines how/when the house will be sold?

you need to look at what is best for YOU going forward and I just don't see this as it.

-B
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/22/19 11:39 AM
Its a fair point I suppose. My logic was as recently as a month ago, she said she wanted to try again. Since then, I've tried to detach but I still asked and expected her to tell me if she was in contact with any of the OM. I guess now I'm trying to say I'm done worrying about what you do and who with. I suppose the alternative is JFDI with my reasoning (if she questions why I'm behaving so differently than before she left (when I wanted to spend time with her) is I'm looking after myself. I just thought the words above made it clear I'm onto her little game and I'm done with her disrespect- its stating my boundaries clearly and why they are there as opposed to her just assuming they have appeared and not knowing why.

Best for me? I'd still like the M to work, but I see that as a long way off and a sea-change needed from her for that to happen. So, the realistic best for me is look after myself and sons and move on.
Posted By: ballast Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/22/19 12:04 PM
One thing I learned a long time ago..logic has ABSOLUTELY no place when dealing with what you are going through. You shouldn't ask and for sure not expect her to tell you if she was in contact with an OM. Do you think she would really tell you the whole truth if you asked her? If you are done worrying, then that is great. Express it solely in the actions you take for yourself as a man who has accepted her decisions. Especially if it's a game, you keep being the man in going where you need to go in life. If at ever game she takes you here and there, that's weak looking for you. Defining boundaries you should definitely do, but act on them not tell her about them.

That is great that you want the M to work. Keep that hope. Realize that it is on your wife to come to the same feeling as you. If/when she comes to you and says exactly that then by all means communicate with her, but unless/until she does you should be looking after what is best for yourself and your sons and be living your life as if she's not going to change. You NEVER know when or if she might change her mind so keep that hope. Just realize that it is out of your control if it happens.

Let your wife see a strong, confident man and father moving his life forward. Totally up to her if she wants to let such a good man go then.

Hang in there!

-B
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/22/19 01:23 PM
I do like the sound of that. Just one question though. As part of her seedy little conversation, she said they could meet up whilst I am away with the boys (as I feared she would). By not saying anything, it effectively makes her feel like she’s “getting away with it” and gives her free reign to do whatever she wants behind my back. That’s doesn’t sit right with me. I want her to know I’m onto her and that whilst I can’t stop her, she’s not getting away with it behind my back: her dirty little secret is out.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/22/19 02:11 PM
Gomez, you are talking too much and doing too little. WWs respond to action, not words. Let me give you an example.

In my sitch I kept telling my W that we couldn't, and that I wouldn't, do a quickie divorce. She was deluded into believing that despite having a minor child, we could do a $400 online D, and have it done quickly and painlessly. I told her that couldn't happen. She ignored me. Until I spoke to a lawyer, and suddenly her easy-peazy lemon squeezee divorce delusion was shattered.

So don't say any of that to her. Stop spending time with her. Don't tell her she is free to do whatever she wants, just stop keeping tabs on her. Don't tell her that you want to sell the house ASAP, contact a realtor and get the ball rolling on selling the house! See the difference.

Gomez, the problem is you think you are going to go on the above diatribe with the hope she will go "OH NO! That's not what I want! I will stop messaging guys. And I will recommit to the marriage. Please give me another chance!"

Those expectations will kill you because likely she'll say "Ok." And keep right on doing what she is doing.

ACTION. Not words.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/22/19 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by Gomez


Best for me? I'd still like the M to work, but I see that as a long way off and a sea-change needed from her for that to happen. So, the realistic best for me is look after myself and sons and move on.


When she wants to come back to the MR, you will know. When she doesn't, you will be confused.
Posted By: ballast Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/22/19 02:34 PM
Gomez...listen to Steve.

<eom>
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/22/19 03:47 PM
Thanks chaps. As usual makes A LOT of sense. Will do!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/22/19 04:27 PM
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So how does all this work in real terms? Take the OM for example: I can’t forbid her to communicate with him: a) that’s controlling and b) I have no way of knowing if she does it or not. My terms of continuing the R would be no contact, but she doesn’t want that anyway. Since I have no way of knowing who she’s messaging, it seems I can’t set boundaries around it.


Really? You either have standards/principles for the MR, or you don't. What measures have been taken to protect the MR from falling into this very state? If she refuses to live by the same moral code, then you need to S/D. Isn't that what the M vows were about? The MR should have boundaries to protect it, just like you have personal boundaries, but your W has ignored any such boundaries......or excused it away by claiming there has been no physical affair.

I get what you are saying about controlling her. We try to point out to newcomers they can't control anyone but themselves. However, stay balanced in your thinking about it, b/c it doesn't mean you have to sit back and take whatever unacceptable act she pulls. It's your life, and your M, too. That's why it is necessary to have personal boundaries to protect yourself. You now see that she doesn't care about protecting the M. If she did, she would not have engaged in such communication with someone who was not her H.

As long as the M is moving toward D procedures, I don't think you can currently do much about who she contacts, especially when you aren't sure if they still communicate. No use wasting your breath on your terms for R at this time, b/c she is not interested in hearing it. However, if & when she ever asks what it would take to get back together, you can be ready to lay it out. Full transparency plan-----no secret "friendships" or private time/communication spent with other men, no mysterious trips or overnights. Attend couples therapy. Anything you feel you need in order to heal, that would be the time to tell her, when she asks about another chance. If she won't agree to cooperate in doing these things you need, then you'd probably go through this pain again. Allowing a WW to come back and pick up the MR where it left off, is a big mistake.

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With the state of the house, walking in and complaining would be being an a$$ and rile her the wrong way. I don’t have any leverage (for want of a better word) in terms of containing the R so what do I say?


This situation reminds of raising children. You have to start training them you. Training includes discipline, and you can't wait until they are in their teens and then try to crack down. As I've said before, you have to make up your mind as to which is most important to you.......having a clean house, or having your W. I mean, you include this in your terms for reconciliation, but she's not going to stick to it.....unless you can figure out how to motivate her. I had a relative who grew up in an extremely clean/organized home. He M a woman who never made a bed, washed a dish, or swept a floor. I felt so sorry for him and the kids. There was no changing her. She laid around reading books all day, and that's all she did. He would come home from work, cook for the kids, and do what he could with laundry. She was very strong willed, and she was the one who called the shots in that household! Guess what he was?

Are you sure you and Josh T are not the same man? smile Your situations are very similar.

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Stopping doing nice things for her is an option, but with the boys “tough love” is being cruel to be kind: they think we’re the enemy because we try to teach them right from wrong. How does this work with a WW?


I think there is some differences in doing a few nice things occasionally, and accommodating her on a regular basis. Your NGS is dictating your life here. This goes back to me telling you to stay balanced in your thinking process while taking in this new information. Tough love doesn't mean you turn into a monster. It takes strength is applying tough love, and when you've waited as long you have........I'm not going to lie and tell you it will easy. I'm not saying you can't ever be polite, when possible. You can even pick something up at the store on your way home from work if she asks. You can even hand her a cup of coffee sometimes. Stay in the middle ground here, and stop jumping to polar opposite. What I want you to understand is that your NGS has turned you into a H she doesn't respect and the M is seeing the results. You won't get her respect by playing nicey-nice, afraid of not accommodating her while she cheats behind your back.

How old are your boys? Look, if your boys are big enough they are telling their parents how they can be disciplined or not.........then I question what type of consequences they faced when they were disobedient. No offense. It's hard raising kids, and today someone will report you for child abuse if you smack your kid's hand. No father came any more strict than my dad, and I respected him more any man I knew. He was strict, but never abusive. He just had that presence that spoke "authority" and everyone he met sensed it. He not only talked the walk, but he walked it, if you know what I mean. I think I was eight when I got my last spanking from him. I don't know how he would have handled it if I had acted inappropriately after I was in my teens, but I was convinced it would not be a pleasant experience......so I didn't give my parents any trouble.

Tough love is not being cruel. The parent doesn't relish the idea of his children having to face consequences for their bad behavior, but it's b/c he wants them to be responsible, respectful, and loving people that he must enforce some type discipline when necessary. I would have NEVER told my father that he was cruel. He was strict, but not cruel. I didn't like it, but what kid does? So many kids are undisciplined, rowdy, selfish, rude, spoiled rotten, a sense of entitlement, and they are so smart in knowing how to manipulate their parents. Kids and WW's have similar behaviors, did you know it? You have to start in the early years----with WW and children---to train them up right. wink Here's the thing. You should not have to "explain" to your WW or your boys that you have to apply tough love, or explain the definition of it. Just do the action. They don't have to like it. The offender or guilty party doesn't get to cherry pick what type of consequences that have to face.

Of course, I would not dare use the discipline word when referring to dealing with a WW. smirk However, I will use the tough love words. Have you ever read the tough love subject from a certain Christian psychologist? (hint--hint)

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Okay massive update here. Before she was sexting the OM, she actually liked his BF but he had a girlfriend. Just found a load of new recent messages to the BF. He’s split up with his GF and she’s now messaging him! She doesn’t know I’ve seen the messages. How do I deal with this when she gets back?


Does this change anything? Will you be more divorced or less divorced, since she was messaging two men, instead of one? I think I've already said that the WW should experience the feeling of being dumped by her H, b/c of her waywardness. So, if you confront her about having information that she has been in touch with another man.....then be sure you have the guts to immediately dump her. It's important that you not reveal your source of information. She'll try her best to find out how much you know. If she knows you've dug through her messages, then she is going to turn the tables and scream about how she can no longer trust you b/c you've invaded her privacy. (This a favorite technique of WW's.) Unless you have reached your limit and you just don't care what she thinks, says, or does.......then I'm concerned you will walk away from the confrontation like a whipped pup. You cannot look weak. I tell H's they need to have a plan before they confront. Don't just confront for the sake of confronting her. Don't do it to see how she'll look when she finds out you know. Don't do it to see if she'll come clean. Although you may desire those things, confrontation is not always effective getting those results. Don't underestimate her power to throw you for a loop, leaving you speechless and not knowing what to do. Be very prepared before confronting a WW. Know what action you will take after you tell her you know she's been inappropriate with more than one man.

I think the advice you've received from Ballast & Steve are voices of experience. Think it over carefully.

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By not saying anything, it effectively makes her feel like she’s “getting away with it” and gives her free reign to do whatever she wants behind my back. That’s doesn’t sit right with me. I want her to know I’m onto her and that whilst I can’t stop her, she’s not getting away with it behind my back: her dirty little secret is out.


From what I have observed in betrayed H's, this ^^^^^^^^ is the driving force behind the confrontation. He wants her to know that he knows what she's been doing. As for as telling her you can't stop her and that she's not getting away with it behind your back.........does that work for you? I'm not suggesting you lie to cover up her dirty secret, but my message is focused on you telling her you can't do anything to stop her. That part should not be included. Although we say it on the board, you don't have to repeat it in a confrontation. See what I mean? You aren't trying to control her, you are telling her you are aware that she lied about inappropriate communication with OM2.

That leads me to another concern you seem to hold, and that's her telling you a month ago she wanted to try. Truthfully, she hasn't really tried, now has she? She's given some temp checks that you wanted to believe were her attempts at working, but it was all lies & deceit........which should make you as angry as her contacts with OM2. So why does it bother you? I think it ties to what Steve said about your expectations in confronting her. Deep down, you hope it brings her to her senses and she'll remorsefully apologize and declare she is ready to commit to saving the M. ((hugs)) I wish I could report that we see those results on the board all the time, but we don't. There are a lot of pros & cons about confronting. Bottom line is to be real with yourself. Know why you are doing it and know what you intend to do after the confrontation. Ask yourself if it is worth it, and could it make things any worse. Have no expectations in how she'll respond. Whatever you do, DON'T tell her you still want to save the M! That's not what you tell a WW during confrontation. She should worry that she has gone too far and now she's lost you forever! Don't reassure her that you are still clinging to the slightest chance she'll want to try again (even it's the truth).
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/22/19 08:34 PM
Okay so I think I’m going to fight my urges to confront her about all this and JFDI. I think it will make things worse confronting her although the way I feel right Now I don’t really care- I really feel like I just want rid of her (if only I could bottle this feeling for those weak moments).

When she gets back I’ll be pushing her to get the house back together so it can go back up for sale. There’ll be no more family times (although I won’t cut off my nose to spite my face when it comes to spending time with the boys) and I’ll cut back what I do do her as far as is reasonably practical. I’ll also be pushing for mediation to get a financial settlement- might actually book it myself!

I’ve already stopped contacting her during the day down to the bare minimum when I need to.
Posted By: Gomez Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/24/19 02:59 PM
Anyone got any tips for when you’re feeling low? Self help, things that cheered you up, suggested reading etc? Feeling as low as I have done in a long time right now- REALLY lonely. I don’t want to move house and lose the one I’ve got, I don’t want to not see my boys everyday, i don’t want them to not be in a loving family with mummy and daddy around. Not sure how I feel about W- I hate her right now for what she’s done, and the messages she’s sent and the thoughts of what she’s done or will do kill me. I know it’s over, what she would need to do to reconcile she won’t do in a million years, I doubt she even thinks she’s in the wrong. But I worry there won’t be anyone else- irrational I know but doesn’t stop the thoughts. Don’t really feel like I have anyone to turn to- I don’t want my family knowing what she’s done and I don’t want friends thinking I’m just miserable to be around.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Need Some Advice Please!! - 07/24/19 06:32 PM
I know the feeling. In DR, Michele talks about the Stop Sign technique. I used that a lot. I also had conversations with others. I went out and talked to women. In the late August 18, I had 4 different women approach me in one night out. Huge ego boost at a time when I desperately needed it. So get out, get busy, and interact with people.
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