Hi everyone. While I can't say I'm happy to be here given the circumstances, glad to see there's such an active and empathetic forum for people to give and receive advice. Thanks in advance.
For background: I'm 37M, she's 31F. Together for a little over seven years, married for a little over two. We met through mutual friends; we went to the same university and generally, my younger friends were her old friends. We hit it off quickly and I thought for sure I had found the one. We met and live in NYC.
We're both the children of difficult upbringings. I was adopted into a very loveless marriage, full of fighting and obvious tension. My mom was an alcoholic, my dad completely unable to express an emotion other than anger - on top of that, they were both grieving the loss of their then 18-year-old son to a car accident a few years before I was adopted. They fought all the time, didn't sleep in the same bed, and basically appeared to despise each other, clearly only staying "together" for the sake of my brother and I. Long story short, I learned very quickly to be independent and only rely on myself, to hide from tension and anger and compartmentalize it, and to be a people pleaser in order to not exacerbate things. These are all things I work on with my personal therapist.
My wife is an only child, with a father that was there physically but at all emotionally, up to the point of literally telling her that he never wanted children. Her mom is a nice person, but very prim and proper, super judgmental. The various difficulties of that upbringing, I'm sure she works on with her therapist.
Anyway, as I said, my wife and I met, we hit it off and fell in love quickly. We had so much in common; both ambitious in our professional lives, in harmony on politics and religion and other key aspects of compatibility, with a large dose of physical attraction built in. It wasn't without ups and downs, but I was so excited and hopeful for the future when we got married.
Fast forward to today, a little over two years later, and we're separating. Her choice, terming it a "trial separation". It's hurting very badly, but I've read just about every article on here and elsewhere on the topic, and I'm taking the approach that my best move is to grant her the space that she needs, work on myself, not to overstep boundaries, and be patient. But it's hard, coming home and realizing that she's packed up her books into boxes, seeing her not wearing her wedding ring, things like that.
As for why, there's a few paper cuts but nothing huge: no affairs that I know of, no abuse. We are in different places in our professional lives: I've risen to the C-suite of my company, and she chose to remove herself from the working world in order to follow her lifelong passions of art and community organization. This created a difficult power imbalance, which was compounded by lack of seeing eye-to-eye on finances; she would ask for more safety in terms of saving, and for lifestyle changes in order to feel more comfortable. I was reticent and stubborn to change my behavior - damn my independence - which made her feel not heard, and not in a true partnership. There have also been instances of trust violations: no affairs, but little lies about stupid things that built up a wall.
On her side, I think the dropping out of the working world is a bit of a function of a mid-life crisis, not knowing what she wants out of life, not feeling fulfilled by her current direction. She's thrown herself headlong into her volunteer and political work, causing us to spend less time together. Also playing out in the background is while she's always been upfront about being bisexual, the #metoo movement and Kavanaugh and everything has made her more aware of her queerness.
We've been attending marriage counseling for about a year and a half, with mixed success. In the early stages, it was a lot about the emotional labor of her having to manage our lives, our household, and so on. Later it was about finances, security, and our sex life. Again with the benefit of hindsight, I can point to a few areas in which I wasn't hearing her, wasn't a true partner. I'm just surprised and embarrassed at how quickly the bond we had has turned; two years is not a long time. But the past six months have been tough, not communicating well, not spending as much time together as we used to. I thought we'd work on it, that we were married and loved each other and committed to counseling and we'd fight through it. I guess she reached her breaking point, and I took that bond for granted. I feel like I didn't do enough.
We had a healthy sex life up until about a year ago, when it tailed off and over the past six months, basically nothing. We both have healthy libidos and when we were really aligned, if I didn't make a move on her a few days, she'd either pounce on me or ask me if anything was on my mind. Over time it's trailed off, partially because of the routineness (both to blame) and partially because of a lack of focus on my end to her needs. The dropoff has made me feel awful about myself, and in talking about in couple's therapy I made it about me - why aren't we having sex, why don't you find me attractive, etc. There were obviously root causes to it that we didn't get to and/or I didn't internalize, and again, I feel bad about that. Lots of things I'd do differently.
She's moving out in two weeks, and since the news, we've been cordial and kind to each other, but awkward and distant. Right after she told me, I had a work trip overseas during which I was a wreck, making the mistake of calling her to talk through some of the pain I was feeling. I also wrote her a long letter explaining some of the areas in which I feel I've failed her, and committing towards fixing them together and to her. At the very least, she can't say she doesn't know how I feel, or that I don't recognize areas in which I've hurt her. Since then, I've been emotionally upset but deadset on asking her for reassurance or relying on her to solve things. We have committed to keeping going to marriage counseling, and she's forthright enough overall that if she really were done, she wouldn't be separating, she'd be serving me papers. So there's a little hope there.
I love her very, very much and my goal is to reconcile. But I know there's no letter I can write to convince her, no action I can perform to turn the tide. She's hurting too (and I know she loves me), and she's sad and upset that things didn't work out the way she thought they would, either. She's framing the separation as removing the dark cloud that was surrounding us living together, and giving us both space to understand what we want. The most painful thing is to see photos of our wedding day around the house and thinking about the goals and optimism we had on that day.
Anyway, I'm sure there's more to it to share, but that's probably enough of a wall-of-text for now. For the time being, the most loving thing I can do is hear her when she says she needs space, to be mindful of her boundaries, commit to working on myself, and in time, remind her of the man she fell in love with. It's scary to detach without any security of her reaching back out to me again, but I can't control that.
Thanks for reading and listening. Open to any advice.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Hi Steve, have you read DR yet?
Fast forward to today, a little over two years later, and we're separating. Her choice, terming it a "trial separation". It's hurting very badly, but I've read just about every article on here and elsewhere on the topic, and I'm taking the approach that my best move is to grant her the space that she needs, work on myself, not to overstep boundaries, and be patient.
Yes, exactly.
As for why, there's a few paper cuts but nothing huge: no affairs that I know of, no abuse. We are in different places in our professional lives: I've risen to the C-suite of my company, and she chose to remove herself from the working world in order to follow her lifelong passions of art and community organization. This created a difficult power imbalance, which was compounded by lack of seeing eye-to-eye on finances; she would ask for more safety in terms of saving, and for lifestyle changes in order to feel more comfortable. I was reticent and stubborn to change my behavior - damn my independence - which made her feel not heard, and not in a true partnership. There have also been instances of trust violations: no affairs, but little lies about stupid things that built up a wall.
Well a lot of times the LBS sees it as minor stuff, but what we don't realize is it's having a bigger impact on the WAS than the realize. She may have been deeply hurting for a long time over not being heard and not feeling like she was in an R. Do take her seriously and don't try to dismiss it as "no big deal, she must be crazy instead". We men, we think that if we're a good parent and a good provider and keep the yard mowed and help with something now and then that that's enough to keep our W happy. But she wants to feel an emotional connection, she wants to be nurtured and listened to and since we don't value that ourselves, we don't see why someone else would. So we starve them of affection without even realizing it.
In the early stages, it was a lot about the emotional labor of her having to manage our lives, our household, and so on. Later it was about finances, security, and our sex life.
The problem with a WAS is when they bring this stuff up it's not because they want it fixed. Their heart has already left the M. So all they're doing is explaining why it's over. So if she gives you a list and you fix those things, then she gives you another list. There is no winning her back by checking off boxes from her list. That's not to say you shouldn't do 180's, you should. But you have to do them for yourself to be a better person because it's not going to have an immediate impact on her. With time she may come to appreciate your changes, and THEN maybe you can start a new R with her.
She's moving out in two weeks, and since the news, we've been cordial and kind to each other, but awkward and distant. Right after she told me, I had a work trip overseas during which I was a wreck, making the mistake of calling her to talk through some of the pain I was feeling. I also wrote her a long letter explaining some of the areas in which I feel I've failed her, and committing towards fixing them together and to her. At the very least, she can't say she doesn't know how I feel, or that I don't recognize areas in which I've hurt her.
No more letters or calls or begging and pleading. You are correct, she knows how you feel. No need to remind her, that's just putting pressure on her and right now she wants zero pressure.
Hi Steve, have you read DR yet?
Not yet. On my list of to-dos for this weekend.
Well a lot of times the LBS sees it as minor stuff, but what we don't realize is it's having a bigger impact on the WAS than the realize. She may have been deeply hurting for a long time over not being heard and not feeling like she was in an R. Do take her seriously and don't try to dismiss it as "no big deal, she must be crazy instead". We men, we think that if we're a good parent and a good provider and keep the yard mowed and help with something now and then that that's enough to keep our W happy. But she wants to feel an emotional connection, she wants to be nurtured and listened to and since we don't value that ourselves, we don't see why someone else would. So we starve them of affection without even realizing it.
Yes, this was a very painful realization that I've come to over the past week. I think about it similarly to the clarity someone must feel when they're peering over the edge of a bridge.
She said in counseling that she was feeling very guilty, because she knows I'm hurting and while she is hurting too, she is most upset by thinking about the pain I'm in. I replied that I feel very guilty as well, because I didn't do enough to hear her and to be a partner to her. I'm incredibly remorseful. It's so clear to me now, and it's an awful feeling to think that it might be too late.
Anyway, thank you for the thoughtful reply. I guess I'm in a bit of denial, telling myself that a trial separation as opposed to divorce, her wanting to remain in counseling, and her general cordialness to me is a positive sign overall. Some very tough days ahead.
I learned very quickly to be independent and only rely on myself, to hide from tension and anger and compartmentalize it, and to be a people pleaser in order to not exacerbate things.
This sounds like Nice Guy Syndrome (NGS). Check out the book No More Mr. Nice Guy. It is an excellent companion to DR.
We've been attending marriage counseling for about a year and a half, with mixed success. In the early stages, it was a lot about the emotional labor of her having to manage our lives, our household, and so on. Later it was about finances, security, and our sex life. Again with the benefit of hindsight, I can point to a few areas in which I wasn't hearing her, wasn't a true partner. I'm just surprised and embarrassed at how quickly the bond we had has turned; two years is not a long time. But the past six months have been tough, not communicating well, not spending as much time together as we used to. I thought we'd work on it, that we were married and loved each other and committed to counseling and we'd fight through it. I guess she reached her breaking point, and I took that bond for granted. I feel like I didn't do enough.
The familiarity of this stings. And I agree with AS that it's hard to know if this was ever fixable.
The dropoff has made me feel awful about myself, and in talking about in couple's therapy I made it about me - why aren't we having sex, why don't you find me attractive, etc. There were obviously root causes to it that we didn't get to and/or I didn't internalize, and again, I feel bad about that. Lots of things I'd do differently.
I did this too. Did you go to the same MC as us?
Honestly your situation resonates deeply with me for so many common factors. And the fact that it sounds hard to pin point exactly where things went wrong. Rest assured it is not all your fault, nor is it all your W's. So you can feel regret, but don't feel bad like it's all your fault.
I had a work trip overseas during which I was a wreck, making the mistake of calling her to talk through some of the pain I was feeling. I also wrote her a long letter explaining some of the areas in which I feel I've failed her, and committing towards fixing them together and to her. At the very least, she can't say she doesn't know how I feel, or that I don't recognize areas in which I've hurt her. Since then, I've been emotionally upset but deadset on asking her for reassurance or relying on her to solve things. We have committed to keeping going to marriage counseling, and she's forthright enough overall that if she really were done, she wouldn't be separating, she'd be serving me papers. So there's a little hope there.
Stop the letters. If you want to know why, read my thread. Expressing remorse is great but also probably too late at this point. Don't overdo it. It will likely only reinforce her reasons for leaving.
I think you mean you are deadset on NOT asking her for reassurance. That is the right approach. By the way, seeking reassurance is another NGS symptom.
I'm just an internet stranger bringing my own baggage, and reading a brief posting of yours, then opining strongly on what you should do
. So take this for what it is:
Have you considered changing to a different MC? With a different style? 1.5 years is a long time to go to MC with little to no progress. I would say this is a MUST.
Also I'm a little wary about your W being nice and cordial. She expressed guilt about your feelings. If I was in your W's shoes and I felt that way, and I also wanted a D, I might plan to separate first, go to MC, and let you down easy. I'm not saying I know definitively what's in her head, I'm just saying be careful about connecting dots. You have NO CLUE what she is really thinking. It is hard to accept, because when times were good you two were probably in sync, so you may think you understand how her brain works. At this point, assume you don't know.
Hi Steve, from another Steve. I am older and been through this twice with my W, able to save it both times. I have read (studied really) dozens of sitches here on top of my prior two sitches. And I have started to see a lot of patterns.
First sorry you are here, but what you will find here are caring people, people that are willing to talk straight to you (please do not wither from that, the truth sometimes hurts but you have to hear it), and empathy from those of us that have been through.
First, you are doing some things right after making some classic mistakes. AS and unchien both gave you some really good feedback already. But I want to talk about the patterns I am seeing.
1st, I am seeing you with some denial. Remember, you cannot fix what you do not acknowledge. Putting hope in MC with a spouse that is moving out (more on that in a moment), Putting hope in the face that she is only separating and not filing (more on that in a moment). Almost all of us come here in some state of denial. Denial will cause you to put stock in the wrong things, do the wrong things, and not see your sitch clearly.
2nd, I see a very common pattern with your WAW. Letting you down easy. "I am not completely done or I would just file, instead of move out." This is a line. Be sure she is done. At least right now. That can change. (My W was convinced she was done and nothing could change her mind.) Women do not move out to find themselves, or to work on the MR. They move out to be free to do whatever they want to do, most of the time that is sleep with other people. I chose that word people carefully because in your sitch it could be either male or female.
3rd, your W has agreed to continue MC, partly to let you down easy, but also because WAWs like to point back to MC and say "see we tried everything, including counseling". This is a truth you have to understand and I will get to why this clarity is so important for you.
Before I go on, I have a question for you to ponder. NYC is one of the most expensive cities in the U.S. to live. You said she gave up her career for art and community work. How is she moving out? There has to be someone that is willing to support her. And people typically don't do that for a non-lover.
So Steve, you have a pretty good plan. Give her space. Let her find her way. Let her deal with her stuff. She may decide that you and the MR is what she wants........she may not. But you will need to accept that. Saving your marriage is NOT in your control. So you concentrate on saving yourself.
The first thing you should do is cancel MC. MC is a waste of time and money with a WAW. MC isn't even that great when both spouses are committed to the MR, depending on the C. So you need to stop that. If for no other reason than MC IS NOT giving her space. And this is why you need clarity on WHY she agreed to continue MC, because if you don't you will continue to delude yourself that there is hope because of MC. MC will not save your marraige, at least at this point in your sitch.
How is your GAL? Are you out staying busy? Why are you coming home to watch her pack her books? Why are you staring at the wedding photos? Take them down if they annoy you. But you should be out getting a life. Workout. Hangout with friends. Be busy busy busy. She asked for space. Give it to her. But continue to stay active and busy even after she leaves.
180 on the bad behavior that got you here. You need to start preparing for your next relationship......whether that is with her or someone new. Take this opportunity to work on you. While you are getting out of MC, double down on your personal therapy. Do not sacrifice IC for MC. You can tell her like this: "I've decided that for now we need to stop MC, I need to focus on myself and dealing with all of this in IC."
Finally, detach. You need to get to a place of emotional stability. Do not be sad and mopey and woe is me. Be upbeat, present, pleased around her. You need to get to a place where she could come to you and tell you something awful. Something like "I had a gangbang with 100 other people (that word again)" and it would roll off your back like water off a duck.
Steve, this is all difficult. Read DR, study it. Know it. You can use that learning and apply it to your sitch, and give yourself a chance, if there is a chance, at what you want.
1st, I am seeing you with some denial. Remember, you cannot fix what you do not acknowledge. Putting hope in MC with a spouse that is moving out (more on that in a moment), Putting hope in the face that she is only separating and not filing (more on that in a moment). Almost all of us come here in some state of denial. Denial will cause you to put stock in the wrong things, do the wrong things, and not see your sitch clearly.
Fair enough. I do believe in positive visualization and generally think that having a negative, pessimistic view of things will not help my situation, but I take your point.
2nd, I see a very common pattern with your WAW. Letting you down easy. "I am not completely done or I would just file, instead of move out." This is a line. Be sure she is done. At least right now. That can change. (My W was convinced she was done and nothing could change her mind.) Women do not move out to find themselves, or to work on the MR. They move out to be free to do whatever they want to do, most of the time that is sleep with other people. I chose that word people carefully because in your sitch it could be either male or female.
I don't have much evidence of this, but you've been to this rodeo and not me. Painful.
Before I go on, I have a question for you to ponder. NYC is one of the most expensive cities in the U.S. to live. You said she gave up her career for art and community work. How is she moving out? There has to be someone that is willing to support her. And people typically don't do that for a non-lover.
She's gone back to the working world, accepting a full-time job with strong salary that starts next week. The prospect of living on her own has obviously changed around her finances, and now she's being more pragmatic. To be clear, I had no issues with supporting her on the things that she loved. I did however use it as a baton to make her feel like her opinions on finances were not important to me. So clear in retrospect.
So Steve, you have a pretty good plan. Give her space. Let her find her way. Let her deal with her stuff. She may decide that you and the MR is what she wants........she may not. But you will need to accept that. Saving your marriage is NOT in your control. So you concentrate on saving yourself.
The first thing you should do is cancel MC. MC is a waste of time and money with a WAW. MC isn't even that great when both spouses are committed to the MR, depending on the C. So you need to stop that. If for no other reason than MC IS NOT giving her space. And this is why you need clarity on WHY she agreed to continue MC, because if you don't you will continue to delude yourself that there is hope because of MC. MC will not save your marraige, at least at this point in your sitch.
I don't remember the exact context, but in talking through the various aspects of the separation (such as contact frequency, finances, etc.), everything was generally mutual, including that. My recollection was that she legitimately wanted to maintain a dialogue about what went wrong, in a safe space that is facilitated by neutral, experienced proctor.
How is your GAL? Are you out staying busy? Why are you coming home to watch her pack her books? Why are you staring at the wedding photos? Take them down if they annoy you. But you should be out getting a life. Workout. Hangout with friends. Be busy busy busy. She asked for space. Give it to her. But continue to stay active and busy even after she leaves.
It's been good - I'm working out five days a week, typically out with friends and getting home later she does. I've made a point to never initiate conversation - always her first. She's done so three times this week, once to send me a link to a volunteer group she thought I'd enjoy, and twice to start a conversation about the basketball game that she was watching at home and I was watching at a sports bar.
As far as the books, I only noticed it when I got home - she must have done it during the day. I would never sit around and watch that. But yes, totally agree - I've reconnected with a few friends, joined two sports leagues through my company - exactly the sort of thing she liked about me when we first got together.[/quote]
180 on the bad behavior that got you here. You need to start preparing for your next relationship......whether that is with her or someone new. Take this opportunity to work on you. While you are getting out of MC, double down on your personal therapy. Do not sacrifice IC for MC. You can tell her like this: "I've decided that for now we need to stop MC, I need to focus on myself and dealing with all of this in IC."
Finally, detach. You need to get to a place of emotional stability. Do not be sad and mopey and woe is me. Be upbeat, present, pleased around her. You need to get to a place where she could come to you and tell you something awful. Something like "I had a gangbang with 100 other people (that word again)" and it would roll off your back like water off a duck.
Steve, this is all difficult. Read DR, study it. Know it. You can use that learning and apply it to your sitch, and give yourself a chance, if there is a chance, at what you want.
Good advice, thank you. I will see what I can figure out about her motivation for continuing MC. Maybe I'm being in denial or naive or both, but I really do think she's more confused than anything else. I'm paraphrasing what she told me when she first brought up the idea of trial separation, but to her us continuing the way we were was a sure-fire, beeline towards divorce. She wasn't happy, I wasn't happy, we weren't communicating, there was a dark cloud over everything. Through a certain lens - and again, from her perspective based on what she told me - separating was the best way to communicate that it wasn't over, but something needed to charge in order for both of us to get a new perspective.
And, FWIW, being direct bordering on judgmental is her typical MO; "letting me down easy" is not typically in her repetoire. But you've been there and done that, so I'll take some to internalize that.
Thanks.
I don't have much evidence of this, but you've been to this rodeo and not me. Painful.
Steve, when I caught my W's EA I had no evidence. I had a gut feeling. An instinct. That said "something ain't right". So search in your gut. You wrote the "her queerness" paragraph above. My guess is that you already suspect something. Even if it is just an EA at this point in time. We have a saying around here: a monkey doesn't jump from the branch it is on until it has identified another branch that can support it.
Good advice, thank you. I will see what I can figure out about her motivation for continuing MC. Maybe I'm being in denial or naive or both, but I really do think she's more confused than anything else. I'm paraphrasing what she told me when she first brought up the idea of trial separation, but to her us continuing the way we were was a sure-fire, beeline towards divorce. She wasn't happy, I wasn't happy, we weren't communicating, there was a dark cloud over everything. Through a certain lens - and again, from her perspective based on what she told me - separating was the best way to communicate that it wasn't over, but something needed to charge in order for both of us to get a new perspective.
Living together before marriage is often referred to as "trying it out before getting married". I am anti-shacking up, but this has been the rationale for living together for as long as I can remember. "Trial separation." What do you think that is a "trial" for? I don't know the stats but I would say that the statistics for those that separate would show a pretty high D rate for those that go that route. "but something needed to charge in order for both of us to get a new perspective." I agree with that statement. But my point is why is separating the change? Why is her not sleeping in another bedroom (ok this is NYC so you might only have one, but there is the couch!)?
Now here is the thing. You have no control over that. "I would prefer if we remained together while we work through this. However, I cannot stop you from moving out so if you feel that is what you need to do I will not try to stop you." However, I have to say, that packing up books sounds pretty permanent. And what about leases, assuming she is moving into her own place (do you even know this)?
Hi Steve,
I divorced 10 years ago. I have learned a lot since then.
Almost everything that works in counter-intuitive.
You need to adopt Alpha Male traits ASAP.
I would let W know that if she moves out, you will conciser it permanent,. It is not a trial.
Your Mantras:
"I do not want to be with a woman who does not want to be with me"
"I do not share my woman with other people"
"set her free"
Read as many of these quotes as you can:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2846984#Post2846984Ask questions and we will give you or opinions. You can then make educated choices and live with the consequences.
We have seen almost everything and most behavior is predictable.
Hi everyone, thanks for the thoughts and advice. I appreciate it.
More of a journal entry than anything else, a few tough days since I wrote the first message. WAW is with her family, a bachelorette party for her cousin in Charlottesville. She's texted me twice and emailed once over the past two days, both her initiating contact, with me being friendly but very much "clerk in a store".
As far as GAL, last two nights have been spent with friends, watching the NHL and then NBA, just shooting the breeze. It's nice that I've got a good support network to work with. I've also been going to the gym very regularly (~4-5/times a week), including twice with a trainer. I'm 6'5" and about 210 with average body fat, want to get back to my fitness as I used to run track at the collegiate level. My goal isn't to be strong in terms of buff, but lean, swimmer-style strength. I mix that in with a softball and flag football team through work, and pick up tennis as the mood strikes me.
On the topic of my mood, it's been tough. This weekend I plan to get a box and put all of our wedding photos, different bits of memorabilia hanging on the wall, etc. away for the time being. Definitely feeling very lonely, definitely mourning the situation. Privately, of course, and with my IC. I don't doubt that she knows how I feel, so I've been playing it aloof and cool around her. If we interact, it's pleasant, friendly.
WAW did indeed sign a lease, she'll be ten minutes away, one neighborhood over from where we live in NYC. Moves out in about two weeks, boxes piling up in our second bedroom. We have many mutual friends, a few of which have been proactive in telling me that she's been telling them - she's upset, and genuinely confused and unsure if there's a way forward. I know, I know - believe none of what she says.
Plan remains the same. Live my best life, let her contact me, be the most attractive person I can be, and give her the space that she needs. No pressure. I'm back and forth on whether continuing MC is a good idea; I understand the perspectives on here, but I'm also wary of the downside risk of it appearing like I'm giving up.
Steve, when I caught my W's EA I had no evidence. I had a gut feeling. An instinct. That said "something ain't right". So search in your gut. You wrote the "her queerness" paragraph above. My guess is that you already suspect something. Even if it is just an EA at this point in time. We have a saying around here: a monkey doesn't jump from the branch it is on until it has identified another branch that can support it.
Fair call out - she identifies as bisexual, but with the rise of #metoo and everything, I think it's made her a lot more sensitive to feminist issues. As a result - and probably as a function of us having problems - she joined a female-heavy volunteer group that works locally to put progressive candidates onto community boards. That group is also very heavily aligned with the LGBTQ community.
I don't think she's had an EA/PA, but I can agree that the pieces don't add up and the timing is very coincidental.
Living together before marriage is often referred to as "trying it out before getting married". I am anti-shacking up, but this has been the rationale for living together for as long as I can remember. "Trial separation." What do you think that is a "trial" for? I don't know the stats but I would say that the statistics for those that separate would show a pretty high D rate for those that go that route. "but something needed to charge in order for both of us to get a new perspective." I agree with that statement. But my point is why is separating the change? Why is her not sleeping in another bedroom (ok this is NYC so you might only have one, but there is the couch!)?
Now here is the thing. You have no control over that. "I would prefer if we remained together while we work through this. However, I cannot stop you from moving out so if you feel that is what you need to do I will not try to stop you." However, I have to say, that packing up books sounds pretty permanent. And what about leases, assuming she is moving into her own place (do you even know this)?
I definitely said something along those lines, but I think she's dead set on changing the perspective. I'm paraphrasing what she's told me, but her opinion is that things between us having gotten so bad and it was so upsetting to her to have our alliance in such a place that it caused everything to be colored black, making it impossible for us to see the good in each other. The only way (and again, I'm paraphrasing her here) for her to regain perspective and attempt to view things differently is the change the situation, as painful as that might be.
I understand the logic. It [censored] and is painful, but I understand it. I do believe that she's been upset for months, and feels like I wasn't hearing her, that I wasn't putting the homework from MC in place in our day-to-day life, and that I took for granted that she'd always be there. And I can't say she's wrong about most of it.
Not sure what vows you guys took on your wedding day. Most of us said something along the lines:
"I take you to be my <spouse>, to have and to hold from this day forth. For better or worse, for richer and for poorer, in sickness and in health, forsaking all others, til death do us part."
Notice it does say "unless you don't hear me, do MC homwork in day-to-day life and aren't there for me!"
None of us were perfect spouses. That doesn't give the walkaway an excuse for the choices they've made.
Remember, believe nothing she says. Thre are reasons for everything the walkaway utters.
Just a random thought: I've been poring through thread after thread on this board, and something caught my eye: Never be a Plan B, the longer you are, the longer the purgatory lasts.
It made me think of a time where we had a relatively large fight - I was in the wrong, she caught me in a very dumb lie the details of which are not worth getting into - but when she said something along the lines of "I can't ever trust you, it's over", I literally did a 180 in the street and started walking in the other direction. This called her bluff and she ran to me, saying she was sorry she said that.
Given that and above maxim, wouldn't the logical continuation of that line of thinking be to serve *her* D papers as a consequence of her asking for a separation? It sounds risky as hell, but it's same principle, right?
SteveS - I caution you to avoid targeting specific outcomes. That is classic NGS behavior - doing something in the hopes of achieving a certain outcome from another person.
That being said, if I was in your shoes (and I kind of am if you read my sitch), I would want to reach a point where I was calm and collected and confident in saying: "I am filing for D, because whether we R (my hope) or D, I will be a happier healthier version of myself." Yes, filing is alpha behavior and may be best for your sitch... you are the expert on your sitch, tailor advice as needed.
I guess the other reason would be that you feel this is your only remaining shot at R, in which the separation is a waste of your time and emotional energy. Again, you are the expert on your sitch... and honestly even in that case I don't think anyone can know whether R is possible.
SteveS - I caution you to avoid targeting specific outcomes. That is classic NGS behavior - doing something in the hopes of achieving a certain outcome from another person.
That being said, if I was in your shoes (and I kind of am if you read my sitch), I would want to reach a point where I was calm and collected and confident in saying: "I am filing for D, because whether we R (my hope) or D, I will be a happier healthier version of myself." Yes, filing is alpha behavior and may be best for your sitch... you are the expert on your sitch, tailor advice as needed.
I guess the other reason would be that you feel this is your only remaining shot at R, in which the separation is a waste of your time and emotional energy. Again, you are the expert on your sitch... and honestly even in that case I don't think anyone can know whether R is possible.
Thanks for the thoughts. I don't think I'm in the place yet to make any definitive decisions - BD was only three weeks ago and we're not separated yet - but I'm certainly giving everything a whole lot of thought right now.
NGS is something I definitely need to work on.
Just some journaling today.
Not sure if I mentioned it before, but WAW is in Virginia on a bachelorette party for her cousin. That must be a bit weird, celebrating someone else's upcoming wedding while hers/ours is on the ropes. She sent me a text Thursday that she got in safely, but nothing last night. This is one of the harder areas - almost constant contact for seven years, and now entire days with none. Last Saturday was probably the first day in seven years in which we didn't talk at all. It's probably negative behavior to pay attention to these things, but it's meaningful to me right now that she's still initiating contact. I will admit in the safe space of this forum that when my phone buzzes, I am hopeful it is from her. Again, I know that's not helpful for me right now but there's no value in being dishonest about it. It is what it is.
Given the weekend to myself, I drew up a plan of what I wanted to accomplish. Go out and get some new jeans to accommodate the weight I've lost from working out, put a lot of old memorabilia of our R into a box so I don't have to see it anymore, hit the gym twice, do a 180 on some leadership-related behaviors (work out a fixed budget during the S, get my/our various financial affairs in order and in a central location, etc.), and see friends. I'm also going to start making a long-term plan for a potential R - not in the NGS way of "if I do this, she'll do that", but more written reminders to myself about GAL, validating, not initiating, and so on.
Still very much on the fence about MC. IC will continue for both of us. I've read enough on here that what works is often counter-intuitive, and that while MC will be a fixed opportunity for us to meet, work together, and re-form as a team, I also recognize that it might not be giving her the space that she needs and ultimately end up adding pressure. Maybe the right strategy here is to go to our next session, see how it goes, and then decide.
Also on the fence about wearing my ring. She hasn't since the BD, and I have to say that's one of more hurtful things about all of this, noticing that. I feel sheepish wearing mine when she doesn't, but I also feel like we're still married, so it's an external signal to everyone about my intentions. I haven't worn mine the past few days and it's very felt strange.
Been thinking a lot about perspective, and how to maintain it. One thing that my friends are very good about is pointing out things that are true in a vacuum: I'm young (37), I have a lot of physically attractive qualities (6'5", in good shape), and have had lots of professional success: started a company, sold that company, now C-suite at a 1000-person company. These things are objectively true, and I know they are right that in the worst-case scenario, there are plenty of fishes in the sea, particularly here in NYC. That's obviously not what I want, but it's good to have that baseline. I need to remind myself of that.
The other aspect of perspective I'm trying to keep is that I have a good friend of mine, actually an ex-hookup from my college days, who is now a single mother and suffering from Stage 2 cancer. It's awful and she's such a fighter. I check in with her every few weeks just to see how she is doing, and one of the things she told me when we talked last is that at the end of the day, your health is what matters. Worrying about the things that are small in comparison to your health will seem so minor when you're up against something like she is.
Anyway, step by step, one day at a time, moving forward.
Hey Steve,
Just been reading your sitch and the wedding ring thing is right where I am.
She kept hers on post BD for a while but after a couple of months she went much colder on me (likely OM) and took it off. I still wear mine a) out of habit and b) to show my intentions to anyone else who is paying attention.
I’m starting to feel like it may be time to take it off but, whether W does or not, I believe in the sanctity of marriage and that it isn’t over until it’s over. Maybe that’s hopelessly naive and shows that I am still to attached, I don’t know.
Anyway, good luck, brother. Keep up the good work.
R
I'd take the ring off and forget about her. Lots of advice here on wearing the ring to show your commitment. I think that's anti DB bc we always take about how old R is dead and how you don't want to be plan B and you don't want to look weak. Everyone's sitch is different, and I'm a bit more intense of a person, so when I finally started letting go I took the ring off. I haven't put it back on yet and we've been back together for a couple months now.
Last year I was right where you are with the ring and hoping every text would be from her. That's normal, I'd try something to retrain your mind there.
I also stopped bringing up MC. I don't think it works for everyone. Therapy in my sitch is connecting, listening, understanding, leading by not fighting, little dates, wine nights. MC is a lot of pressure IMO.
Reminding yourself of success is great, but if you're like me you want to make sure you don't become arrogant. You probably are more successful than I am, but totally different lifestyles from where you are to here. I wouldn't want to work in that environment either, too much politics for me and I like wearing golf clothes to work. Kudos to you on that.
Quick update:
Just packed up all of our wedding and relationship memorabilia into a box. Really, really painful. So hard to look at the happy photos, putting myself mentally back into that tux. It was only two years ago.
I can't live in the past though and seeing it around the house every day would only drag that out. Empty shelves and walls are just as sad, just in a different way. Plenty of time ahead to fill them with my own adventures.
One day at a time.
Hey Steve,
Just been reading your sitch and the wedding ring thing is right where I am.
She kept hers on post BD for a while but after a couple of months she went much colder on me (likely OM) and took it off. I still wear mine a) out of habit and b) to show my intentions to anyone else who is paying attention.
I’m starting to feel like it may be time to take it off but, whether W does or not, I believe in the sanctity of marriage and that it isn’t over until it’s over. Maybe that’s hopelessly naive and shows that I am still to attached, I don’t know.
Anyway, good luck, brother. Keep up the good work.
R
Thanks both for the advice. The wound is still pretty fresh so I think I'm just going to do what feels right until I have more clarity and a more level head. I'm not even one month in, WAW hasn't separated yet. This is a marathon, not a sprint.
More journaling.
I've read a TON of posts on here and having lots of ambivalent thoughts. I recognize deeply that I have NGS - passive-aggressiveness, covert contracts, validation from others, lack of conflict resolution, everything. It hasn't affected my professional life much and I don't think it's hindered my progress there, but it's very clearly led my WAW to a place of great frustration and a loss of respect. That breakdown of the trust between us I believe is what it's driving our upcoming S.
We haven't talked in too much depth about the mechanics of the actual S, other than her reciting things that I'm reading on here are very scripted - she's confused about what she wants, she needs space, and so on. I absolutely believe that she needs space but I get the sense that many veterans here would push back on the first point: if she were confused about what she wanted, she'd stay and dig in her heels as opposed to separating. Instead she is walking away and likely getting her ducks in a row, swimming into the deep end of the pool to see what the water is like. She may not be 100% sure if she wants to D, but she wants to S: now I'm left to wonder if the S is more about adjustment, or a sincere lack of clarity on her part. I don't want limbo, I don't want to be a Plan B - it is not productive, nor fair. But I also know I likely cannot confront her on this topic.
It's painful for me to absorb that (and I have to admit, there's a bit of misogyny/assume the worst from women in the subtext that I find troublesome) but the healthiest thing for me is likely to assume that it's over, learn to emotionally detach, and work on myself. These are no-risk things that I am doing to put myself in a better position regardless of her next move because I cannot control her or base my life around her.
GAL won't be much of a problem for me, but I'm having some trouble with 180s. A lot of her complaints historically have been that I've been self-centered, unwilling to truly hear her or understanding her positions, which led to her feeling like an unequal partner in the relationship. This played itself out a number of ways: in our finances, in our sex life, and in our domestic day-to-day. Doing a 180 here feels somewhat against principles though: how can I simultaneously lovingly detach, while also showing her that I value her partnership?
I am a little worried about cake eating on her part as well. She has stated that she prefers the general way we handle our finances to not change: still use joint accounts, and for me to help her with rent on her new place. I'm getting increasingly uncomfortable with both, but more so on the latter. She is leaving me: why should I make that easy for her? She's talked to a lawyer about D, in her words to understand the economics of it. This certainly is a strike against her statement of what knowing what she wants, and a strike for this just being an intermediate step. But again, is this worth a confrontation? NGS tells me that it's not worth the conflict, DB tells me to be Alpha and stand my ground, but also not to pressure her or detach. Maybe I'm misunderstanding things.
What's frustrating for me about this is that she clearly sees me as someone who is emotionally fragile. This is certainly very painful for me right now, but I don't believe that to be true. I survived an abusive childhood to be an imperfect but well-liked, successful man. I guess the only thing I can do now is that show that, for myself, and let things happen as they come.
It made me think of a time where we had a relatively large fight - I was in the wrong, she caught me in a very dumb lie the details of which are not worth getting into - but when she said something along the lines of "I can't ever trust you, it's over", I literally did a 180 in the street and started walking in the other direction. This called her bluff and she ran to me, saying she was sorry she said that.
Given that and above maxim, wouldn't the logical continuation of that line of thinking be to serve *her* D papers as a consequence of her asking for a separation? It sounds risky as hell, but it's same principle, right?
It's not uncommon for LBS's to come up with similar thoughts, but the factor that you're not including is that in your earlier example, she was your loving wife and you were having an argument. In the later example she is a WAS and no longer wants to have ANYTHING to do with you. So if the two of you were walking along NOW arguing and you turned and walked the other direction, she would keep on walking and never look back. Her way of thinking has changed that much.
Unchien is right, don't do anything just to get a reaction out of your W. That is exactly what a covert contract is, which as you already pointed out is a NGS trait that you need to work to get rid of.
It made me think of a time where we had a relatively large fight - I was in the wrong, she caught me in a very dumb lie the details of which are not worth getting into - but when she said something along the lines of "I can't ever trust you, it's over", I literally did a 180 in the street and started walking in the other direction. This called her bluff and she ran to me, saying she was sorry she said that.
Given that and above maxim, wouldn't the logical continuation of that line of thinking be to serve *her* D papers as a consequence of her asking for a separation? It sounds risky as hell, but it's same principle, right?
It's not uncommon for LBS's to come up with similar thoughts, but the factor that you're not including is that in your earlier example, she was your loving wife and you were having an argument. In the later example she is a WAS and no longer wants to have ANYTHING to do with you. So if the two of you were walking along NOW arguing and you turned and walked the other direction, she would keep on walking and never look back. Her way of thinking has changed that much.
Unchien is right, don't do anything just to get a reaction out of your W. That is exactly what a covert contract is, which as you already pointed out is a NGS trait that you need to work to get rid of.
Fair enough. Thank you.
One thing that troubles me: a lot of the conversation on here seems to be very black and white, as if it's either "she's in love and everything is great" or "she no longer wants to have anything to do with you". Surely there exists a lot of situations in the middle, no?
To be clear, I don't disagree at all that the #1 thing I should be doing (and am doing) is getting a life, working on myself, and letting her go. That is true agnostic of the situation. But I also feel like in the seven years we've spent together, I know her like the back of my hand, and if she was truly 100% done, she'd be done.
SteveS,
Yes we talk in absolutes here because to do other is to mind-read, and mind-reading will get you no where. After BD it is safest to assume that your spouse is 100% done and then to act accordingly. To not do that means you will sabotage you DBing efforts in the name of not realizing the seriousness of her desire to leave.
A few months back I wrote a long post about the thoughts, attitudes, and timing that leads up to BD. The problem for most LBSs is that things were going along pretty well until BD. Then BD hits and they think every thing changed. This is a misconception. The truth is that while you thought everything was going along well, behind the scenes she was unhappy and looking for an escape route LONG before BD. The only thing that changed on BD was your knowledge of how truly unhappy she was, and your knowledge of the fact that she has been looking for an exit. Usually that takes about a year before a WAW will verbalize that desire. It takes them a long time because they are not sure, and they don't want to hurt their LBH. But rest assured, she is more done than not, and to treat her as anything other than 100% done risks applying pressure and pursuit that will push her to 100% in no time.
If you need to believe she is less than 100% done to have hope, then believe it. As long as you are realistic that she is likely well over 90% done, like 98% or higher. WAWs typically do not initiate BD until they are that sure they are done.
In my sitch, I realized something had changed and I initiated BD. But even my case she was probably at 95% minimum of being sure she was done.
Don't delude yourself, the chances are you will be getting a D. DBing gives you the best chance at turning it around, but there are no guarantees.
One thing that troubles me: a lot of the conversation on here seems to be very black and white, as if it's either "she's in love and everything is great" or "she no longer wants to have anything to do with you". Surely there exists a lot of situations in the middle, no?
I know this will surprise you if not shock you, but no, there aren't any situations "in the middle". People who come here have already been BD'd. Once a WAS reaches the point of BD, they are well and truly done with their spouse. They have been suffering in silence for months or years and planning their escape, and once they get up the nerve to BD they have basically transformed into someone else. Someone who doesn't like their spouse and may even hate or despise them. Someone who is more interested in themselves than in the thoughts, feelings and needs of others.
But I also feel like in the seven years we've spent together, I know her like the back of my hand, and if she was truly 100% done, she'd be done.
You knew who she WAS, you don't know who she IS. A lot of LBS's struggle with this concept, they think they know their spouse better and that the advice given here is subject to personal modification to better fit their particular sitch. But the truth is WE know your wife better than YOU do. We know who she is NOW. And the person she is now is more than likely a stranger to you. A lot of LBS's say it's like "invasion of the bodysnatchers" has happened and a different personality has been transplanted into their old spouse's body. That's not far off the mark. Trust DB'ing, don't assume you know a better way or you may find yourself in even deeper.
One thing that troubles me: a lot of the conversation on here seems to be very black and white, as if it's either "she's in love and everything is great" or "she no longer wants to have anything to do with you". Surely there exists a lot of situations in the middle, no?
I know this will surprise you if not shock you, but no, there aren't any situations "in the middle". People who come here have already been BD'd. Once a WAS reaches the point of BD, they are well and truly done with their spouse. They have been suffering in silence for months or years and planning their escape, and once they get up the nerve to BD they have basically transformed into someone else. Someone who doesn't like their spouse and may even hate or despise them. Someone who is more interested in themselves than in the thoughts, feelings and needs of others.
But I also feel like in the seven years we've spent together, I know her like the back of my hand, and if she was truly 100% done, she'd be done.
You knew who she WAS, you don't know who she IS. A lot of LBS's struggle with this concept, they think they know their spouse better and that the advice given here is subject to personal modification to better fit their particular sitch. But the truth is WE know your wife better than YOU do. We know who she is NOW. And the person she is now is more than likely a stranger to you. A lot of LBS's say it's like "invasion of the bodysnatchers" has happened and a different personality has been transplanted into their old spouse's body. That's not far off the mark. Trust DB'ing, don't assume you know a better way or you may find yourself in even deeper.
OK. I appreciate the honesty. I guess I'm just reading too much into things. She texts me first, pretty much every day. She went on a trip, she brings me back a small gift. I come home, she's made me fresh squeezed juice. I see her going about her day, she's obviously troubled and looking upset.
But I get your point. I can't mind read. I can't assume anything other than what is in front of me, which is that by this time next week, she will be moved in to her new place and we will be separated. The truth hurts.
OK. I appreciate the honesty. I guess I'm just reading too much into things. She texts me first, pretty much every day. She went on a trip, she brings me back a small gift. I come home, she's made me fresh squeezed juice. I see her going about her day, she's obviously troubled and looking upset.
But I get your point. I can't mind read. I can't assume anything other than what is in front of me, which is that by this time next week, she will be moved in to her new place and we will be separated. The truth hurts.
All done out of guilt for what she is doing to you. We see this a lot, where a WAW/WW will become nicer to the LBH has their departure is closer. It is called "not burning bridges", and "making sure plan B is firmly in place". This is why DBing is so effective. When she sees you moving on she more than likely will panic. You are her safety net, DBing will show her she is about to jump onto a trapeze without her safety net to catch her.
GAL like madman. Detach (make sure you know what this really means.) Then show her your 180s at every chance you get (just don't go out of your way to make opportunities). NO EXPECTATIONS!
OK. I appreciate the honesty. I guess I'm just reading too much into things. She texts me first, pretty much every day. She went on a trip, she brings me back a small gift. I come home, she's made me fresh squeezed juice. I see her going about her day, she's obviously troubled and looking upset.
But I get your point. I can't mind read. I can't assume anything other than what is in front of me, which is that by this time next week, she will be moved in to her new place and we will be separated. The truth hurts.
All done out of guilt for what she is doing to you. We see this a lot, where a WAW/WW will become nicer to the LBH has their departure is closer. It is called "not burning bridges", and "making sure plan B is firmly in place". This is why DBing is so effective. When she sees you moving on she more than likely will panic. You are her safety net, DBing will show her she is about to jump onto a trapeze without her safety net to catch her.
GAL like madman. Detach (make sure you know what this really means.) Then show her your 180s at every chance you get (just don't go out of your way to make opportunities). NO EXPECTATIONS!
Fair enough. Denial is a powerful thing.
I know in my head that everything I'm learning here is true. I need to use this time to improve myself, GAL, and become a better man regardless of what happens. This will not defeat me. It will make me stronger, and a better partner.
I will study as much as I can about detachment as a to-do. One thing I distinctly recall is that back in my college days, when the girl I thought was the one at the time (amazing how things change!) and I broke up, I went completely radio silent and licked my wounds. Over time, she reached out multiple times over to check-in, see how I was doing, and even invite me to hang out. By that time I was over it and moved on, but the power of that detachment made her curious and turned the power dynamic to the other side.
Any specific tips on detachment are greatly appreciated. Separation is in a few days, and it's going to get worse before it gets better.
I will study as much as I can about detachment as a to-do. One thing I distinctly recall is that back in my college days, when the girl I thought was the one at the time (amazing how things change!) and I broke up, I went completely radio silent and licked my wounds. Over time, she reached out multiple times over to check-in, see how I was doing, and even invite me to hang out. By that time I was over it and moved on, but the power of that detachment made her curious and turned the power dynamic to the other side.
This is seriously true, and statistically the best way. There's a website out there that goes super in depth about it called exgfrecovery. I found it very interesting.
One thing that troubles me: a lot of the conversation on here seems to be very black and white, as if it's either "she's in love and everything is great" or "she no longer wants to have anything to do with you". Surely there exists a lot of situations in the middle, no?
I don't understand what Steve85 and AS were saying as far as things being black and white. When my W, Steve's W, or Blu's H came back and decided to patch things up wtih us it wasn't like we jumped back into this wonderful world where we were in love and everything is great like you said. So again I'm not sure what they meant. In my opinion, most relationships are somewhere in between. The 5LL's author stated that the average in love experience lasts less than 2 years.
Is your W conflicted? Clearly. Is she still doing nice things for you? Yes. Maybe out of habit, love, or wanting to keep you as plan B like they mentioned. Hard to say. You are there, you've seen her, and if she looksshaky emotionally than you probably are right. We just don't know what her biggest concerns are.
A lot of people here say the walkaway spouse has to hit "rock bottom", but Sandi said it wasn't rock bottom for her, rather it was "just enough" pain to make her change. Everyone has a different tolerance, so to speak.
I don't understand what Steve85 and AS were saying as far as things being black and white. When my W, Steve's W, or Blu's H came back and decided to patch things up wtih us it wasn't like we jumped back into this wonderful world where we were in love and everything is great like you said. So again I'm not sure what they meant.
Well I don't think I said anything was black and white, but what I was referring to is that once a WAS goes rogue, she's all-out of the M. She's not half in and half out which I think is what Steve was asking. BEFORE BD is when they are half in and half out, they may be like that for months or even years. They are hanging on, hoping that something will change, silently suffering. When they finally decide enough is enough and they drop the bomb, then they are all out. That's what DB'ing is specifically about- dealing with a spouse that is completely checked out of the M.
And that's one thing everyone that comes here has in common, their spouse is over, done, kaput. But as I also like to point out, that is how they feel right now. That can and will change in months or years. But initially after BD there is zero chance that pursuit or begging/ pleading/ negotiating/ gift-buying/ etc. will bring them back. Once they are done, then you're dealing with a consistent recipe of giving them time and space while working on yourself, there's just no other way that works.
^^^That's what I was talking about. A lot of LBS's think they can mix a cocktail of DB'ing and other techniques and their own brand of pursuing because they think they know their wives better than anyone else and that their version is what will work for her. I can relate to that, I thought the same thing. But any of us that have been down this road can tell you, we were wrong! I was wrong! The woman I knew 25 years was no longer who I was dealing with, and the people here who were counseling me were SPOT ON in their suggestions whereas the stuff I tried early on just backfired big time. A lot of us vets are on here because we are hoping others can hear what we did right and what we did wrong, and hopefully they will learn from us and just do the right stuff
Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. Appreciate the perspective.
WAW moves out on Friday. We have MC tomorrow, where I think I will bring up that I don't believe MC will be helpful while we are separated as we both need time and space to process, heal, and grow.
We also have time carved out on Wednesday to go through our finances together. Her current position is that I should help her with a chunk of the rent of the new place, and that we should maintain the current status of a shared bank account, and shared cards that we use for things. I don't have much of an opinion on the former, but on the latter I feel it is obvious that if we are to separate effectively, we have to separate financially as well.
Beyond that, plan is the same. Minimal contact now, only when she initiates it. Always leave the conversation first. No pleading, begging, or emotion. No discussing the R. After Friday, no contact.
In the safe space of this forum, I will admit to being scared. And hurt. But I know what I have to do.
I don't understand what Steve85 and AS were saying as far as things being black and white. When my W, Steve's W, or Blu's H came back and decided to patch things up wtih us it wasn't like we jumped back into this wonderful world where we were in love and everything is great like you said. So again I'm not sure what they meant.
Well I don't think I said anything was black and white, but what I was referring to is that once a WAS goes rogue, she's all-out of the M. She's not half in and half out which I think is what Steve was asking. BEFORE BD is when they are half in and half out, they may be like that for months or even years. They are hanging on, hoping that something will change, silently suffering. When they finally decide enough is enough and they drop the bomb, then they are all out. That's what DB'ing is specifically about- dealing with a spouse that is completely checked out of the M.
And that's one thing everyone that comes here has in common, their spouse is over, done, kaput. But as I also like to point out, that is how they feel right now. That can and will change in months or years. But initially after BD there is zero chance that pursuit or begging/ pleading/ negotiating/ gift-buying/ etc. will bring them back. Once they are done, then you're dealing with a consistent recipe of giving them time and space while working on yourself, there's just no other way that works.
^^^That's what I was talking about. A lot of LBS's think they can mix a cocktail of DB'ing and other techniques and their own brand of pursuing because they think they know their wives better than anyone else and that their version is what will work for her. I can relate to that, I thought the same thing. But any of us that have been down this road can tell you, we were wrong! I was wrong! The woman I knew 25 years was no longer who I was dealing with, and the people here who were counseling me were SPOT ON in their suggestions whereas the stuff I tried early on just backfired big time. A lot of us vets are on here because we are hoping others can hear what we did right and what we did wrong, and hopefully they will learn from us and just do the right stuff
Yep, this is what I meant to. If the WAW initiates BD they are done by then. They may have been done before then for some length of time too, but on BD they certainly are. It is fool's gold to get into the game of guessing "are they really done? or aren't they?" I struggled more than most with that because I initiated BD, but for 99.5% of posters that come here that have been BD'd, there spouse is black and white done at that moment.
Yep, this is what I meant to. If the WAW initiates BD they are done by then. They may have been done before then for some length of time too, but on BD they certainly are. It is fool's gold to get into the game of guessing "are they really done? or aren't they?" I struggled more than most with that because I initiated BD, but for 99.5% of posters that come here that have been BD'd, there spouse is black and white done at that moment.
Ultimately, I guess it doesn't matter because either way the next step is the same: detach. She says she needs space, give her the space.
Get your own bacnk account setup. Get your paycheck going into it.
Use the joint account to pay off debt. Pay joint bills. Split the remaining 50/50. After she moves out, you pay your bills, she pays hers.
If she wants to discuss finances and her position is that you should cover some of her expenses still just keep it brief when responding. Have a phrase or two worked out already. This is her choice to separate, what does your paying for her choice and eliminating the consequences of her choice say?
If she wants to discuss finances and her position is that you should cover some of her expenses still just keep it brief when responding. Have a phrase or two worked out already. This is her choice to separate, what does your paying for her choice and eliminating the consequences of her choice say?
I agree, but playing devil's advocate, it's the equivalent of paying the spousal support if we got divorced, no? I assume that's the argument she would make.
So, just got back from MC. Probably going to need some 2x4s.
WAW moves out Friday. Going to be super tough, but I will survive. I've been reading No More Mr. Nice Guy and identify with just about everything in it. Lots to do, lots to talk about with my IC. Starting to put some plans in place, too: reconnected with friends, joined to sports leagues, reached out about two volunteer opportunities. Time to be the best me.
In MC, we talked a bit about what our expectations are around contact post S. WAW wants to play it by ear, see what comes naturally. I let slip that I preferred for us to get as much space as we need to gain clarity on our situation. I'm concerned I played my card, which is no contact and GAL. If she's expecting it, I gain no value from it, right?
She also mentioned that she's valued the kindness we've showed each other in the run up to the actual S. I'm paraphrasing, but she said that it reminds her that we can be friends and joke around with each other, because we've built up a history of in-jokes and just knowing the other person. I'm growing concerned that this guarantees a friendzone outcome, where she's closed the door on our romantic life together and is only interested in opening it back up for a platonic friendship.
The other side of this argument is that after we S and I go no contact, GAL, work on myself, etc., if there truly is a future for us, it's going to be Phase 2, not Phase 1. Phase 1 is over, that part of our lives is dead. It seems unlikely that Phase 2 will be just like where we left off, so wouldn't that basically mean that it has to start over again the same way our original relationship did, which was a friendship that turned into more?
The plan however does not change. Detach, work on myself, put on 10 pounds of muscle, get my jump shot back, get them whites as pearly as they can be. In the meantime, hold my line and a boundary on the finances, and cut MC.
So, just got back from MC. Probably going to need some 2x4s.
WAW moves out Friday. Going to be super tough, but I will survive. I've been reading No More Mr. Nice Guy and identify with just about everything in it. Lots to do, lots to talk about with my IC. Starting to put some plans in place, too: reconnected with friends, joined to sports leagues, reached out about two volunteer opportunities. Time to be the best me.
What are your plans for Friday? Is your NGS going have you helping her move? I hope not. She is moving. She is on her own. You are busy that day.
In MC, we talked a bit about what our expectations are around contact post S. WAW wants to play it by ear, see what comes naturally. I let slip that I preferred for us to get as much space as we need to gain clarity on our situation. I'm concerned I played my card, which is no contact and GAL. If she's expecting it, I gain no value from it, right?
Wrong. GAL and no contact is for you. Not for her. It helps you detach. If you are DBing to "gain value with her" then you are doing it wrong. Forget her. DB for you. Not her.
She also mentioned that she's valued the kindness we've showed each other in the run up to the actual S. I'm paraphrasing, but she said that it reminds her that we can be friends and joke around with each other, because we've built up a history of in-jokes and just knowing the other person. I'm growing concerned that this guarantees a friendzone outcome, where she's closed the door on our romantic life together and is only interested in opening it back up for a platonic friendship.
Yep. Right now that is true. However, do you want to get back with her? Than accept what she is willing to give you. There is a difference in being friends and being "friend-zoned." My W is my best friend, but I am not friend-zoned by her.
I've told this story a few times. Near the end of my W's waywardness, when she was getting ready to move towards staying and Ring, we were on road trip together. We stopped a drive-thru to grab a bite, and while we were waiting she made a silly noise. I laughed......mimicked the noise she made, and laughed again. She stopped, looked me dead in the eyes and say "WHO ARE YOU?" Her implication that just a few months earlier her silly noise would have annoyed me and I would have made disapproving body language movements, and maybe even chastised her publicly. Being fun and friendly is what you should be doing. Not settling for being friend-zoned doesn't mean not being friends with her, it means not holding out hope and waiting for her after you've been friend-zoned. You are a long way away from worrying about that.
The other side of this argument is that after we S and I go no contact, GAL, work on myself, etc., if there truly is a future for us, it's going to be Phase 2, not Phase 1. Phase 1 is over, that part of our lives is dead. It seems unlikely that Phase 2 will be just like where we left off, so wouldn't that basically mean that it has to start over again the same way our original relationship did, which was a friendship that turned into more?
Exactly.
The plan however does not change. Detach, work on myself, put on 10 pounds of muscle, get my jump shot back, get them whites as pearly as they can be. In the meantime, hold my line and a boundary on the finances, and cut MC.
AWESOME! What are you doing on Friday. And if you say "helping her move" I am going to hit you with a 2x4!
Spousal support, y'all have been married 2 years with no kids, right? Has a lawyer told you she'd get alimony?
If she's expecting it, I gain no value from it, right?
Don't sweat it, it's better to show than to tell but if you stay consistent you'll be fine.
I'm growing concerned that this guarantees a friendzone outcome,
Companionship and friendship are important, you really can't ask for anything right now. NMMNG talks about letting go of what you can't control to focus your energy where you can be productive. You already know this in business, but you have to apply it here even though your emotions don't want to.
The plan however does not change. Detach, work on myself, put on 10 pounds of muscle, get my jump shot back, get them whites as pearly as they can be. In the meantime, hold my line and a boundary on the finances, and cut MC.
Boom. Love it!
What are your plans for Friday? Is your NGS going have you helping her move? I hope not. She is moving. She is on her own. You are busy that day.
Getting out of town. One of my friends has a house up on the Hudson, going to leave mid-day and spend the weekend up there with some buddies grilling, having beers, tossing around a football and such. I will say goodbye to WAW that morning though, going to be hard but I can do it. No R talk, no pressure.
Wrong. GAL and no contact is for you. Not for her. It helps you detach. If you are DBing to "gain value with her" then you are doing it wrong. Forget her. DB for you. Not her.
Good reminder. Thank you.
Yep. Right now that is true. However, do you want to get back with her? Than accept what she is willing to give you. There is a difference in being friends and being "friend-zoned." My W is my best friend, but I am not friend-zoned by her.
I've told this story a few times. Near the end of my W's waywardness, when she was getting ready to move towards staying and Ring, we were on road trip together. We stopped a drive-thru to grab a bite, and while we were waiting she made a silly noise. I laughed......mimicked the noise she made, and laughed again. She stopped, looked me dead in the eyes and say "WHO ARE YOU?" Her implication that just a few months earlier her silly noise would have annoyed me and I would have made disapproving body language movements, and maybe even chastised her publicly. Being fun and friendly is what you should be doing. Not settling for being friend-zoned doesn't mean not being friends with her, it means not holding out hope and waiting for her after you've been friend-zoned. You are a long way away from worrying about that.
Got it. Yeah, I guess I'm feeling a bit more optimistic that I really don't see a scenario where we come out on the other side of this with any hostility. She will always want me in her life. She said as much - I'm not giving up on you, I'm giving up on the way we were communicating and the way the R was going.
That is better than the alternative, even if it's not what I want just yet. And what I want can change dramatically as I do the work I have to do to better myself! But it feels like there's going to be a base level to work from. I guess this is where the outcome-agnostic mindset has to come in. I'll need to learn how to be friends and be OK with that, if it's just that. Having ulterior motives, that's just covert contract stuff. It'll be transparent.
I will politely disagree with Steve85. I would project that you are "excited" to have your own place and freedom. I would be moving her stuff out of my way and making your place "manly". I would be excited about all the "new space" I have available. Ask her when she will be done? I have people coming over tonight. Let me help you with this.
Ask a few buddy's over for a beer and painting party.
You do not want to be friend zoned. You want W to see you as Alpha.
We also have time carved out on Wednesday to go through our finances together. Her current position is that I should help her with a chunk of the rent of the new place, and that we should maintain the current status of a shared bank account, and shared cards that we use for things. I don't have much of an opinion on the former, but on the latter I feel it is obvious that if we are to separate effectively, we have to separate financially as well.
Just to reiterate what R2C said, get everything separated ASAP. No joint account, no joint CC's. You've got to protect yourself and if she is MLC or GGW-prone (which you won't know until it's too late) then she can quickly rack up some serious debt that you will be half responsible for. If you come to some kind of agreement that you'll be paying for part of her rent or bills then establish what the fixed dollar amount is up front and transfer it to her account each month and let her pay her bills herself. Don't fall for the "oh but this is just temporary so let's leave the joint accounts in place" BS. She fully intends for it to be permanent. She may change her mind later, but for now that's what she's thinking. Also, hopefully this goes without saying but her new place and bills need to ALL be in her name. Don't cosign!
Also I'm not sure what her financial status is, does she work? Is her income comparable to yours? If so then you shouldn't be paying her a cent. Don't fall into the trap of thinking if you give her money it will earn you a spot in her good graces. It won't. I loved my XW very much and would have done anything to keep her in the M. But when she decided to separate I (thanks to advice from here) refused to leave the house, refused to accept less than 50-50 custody of the kids, and refused to give her a penny in support even though I made more than her. You can't buy a WAS back. By standing by my conditions I took some control back in a situation that felt completely beyond my control. And I earned some respect back too, she knew she couldn't just walk all over me.
Starting to put some plans in place, too: reconnected with friends, joined to sports leagues, reached out about two volunteer opportunities. Time to be the best me.
Awesome!
I let slip that I preferred for us to get as much space as we need to gain clarity on our situation. I'm concerned I played my card, which is no contact and GAL. If she's expecting it, I gain no value from it, right?
No I don't think telling her matters much, don't sweat it. But it IS important to back it up with actions. She'll believe your actions much more than your words. By the way the "value" is to you, not her. It will help you learn to cope with the situation. It's going to be hard at first but after a while you are going to start feeling much better about yourself. In-house separation is absolute hell to go through, physical separation is actually easier.
I'm growing concerned that this guarantees a friendzone outcome, where she's closed the door on our romantic life together and is only interested in opening it back up for a platonic friendship.
If you do what you say and go dark, then it'll become clear to her that you're not interested in being her buddy.
The other side of this argument is that after we S and I go no contact, GAL, work on myself, etc., if there truly is a future for us, it's going to be Phase 2, not Phase 1. Phase 1 is over, that part of our lives is dead. It seems unlikely that Phase 2 will be just like where we left off, so wouldn't that basically mean that it has to start over again the same way our original relationship did, which was a friendship that turned into more?
Yes that is exactly right. Your old M is dead and gone. You might have a new R with her in the distant future though, only time will tell.
Yes that is exactly right. Your old M is dead and gone. You might have a new R with her in the distant future though, only time will tell.
I'm sure I'm not saying anything here that people don't know or haven't felt themselves, but this is the hardest truth of them all. My heart tells me to think about the 90% of our relationship that was positive, and not the 10% nosedive that has gotten us here, but that's not going to help any. It's like a sugar high before the crash. My head knows that the memories remain, they exist in pictures, they'll stay with me. But that door is closed, and it's one-way. It's OK to mourn that.
Thanks for all of the real talk regarding the finances. I'm going to hold the line. She does work - after a prolonged period of consulting part-time and trying to make a career of her art - but her income is significantly less than mine. I have no interest in punishing her or being petty, but I also have no interest in being a pushover and leaving myself unprotected. There is a middle ground here that we need to find.
Just journaling a little bit. On the subway home, I started thinking about the finances again. It was hard not to get emotional, because like many people, the topic of budgets and spending were at the core of some of our biggest impasses during the M. It just really reinforced to me, again, that the M as I knew it is over. It's so hard just to be OK with that right now. The dreams we had, the excitement we had for what was ahead of us. I don't know how people do it. It's just so painful right now. That was only two years ago.
I also realized that I still don't have a great explanation for why this is happening, although I guess it's irrelevant because it's happening whether I like it or not. It was originally brought up to me as a trial separation in order to have space and gain clarity - hence the subject of the thread - but she is holding firm that it needs to be a legal separation. I'm speaking to a lawyer on Thursday, but to me there is a big difference there. My understanding is that a legal separation is the equivalent of a divorce, in that you come to a legal agreement regarding support and how assets are divided, yet you are not formally divorced and thus can retain some of the marriage benefits, such as health insurance.
I don't want to talk M or R with her, but I feel like I need to get clarity here. If she is only going the S route to maintain something like health insurance, I can't go along with that.
SteveS -
I think you are right to dig into why she wants legal S vs trial S. It sounds suspect.
In my sitch, my WAS wants the TS, whereas I would prefer LS if it didn't poison the waters.
I don't know how people do it. It's just so painful right now. That was only two years ago.
It is hard and painful. More painful when you think about how we see all this happening but are helpless to stop it with no control
I also realized that I still don't have a great explanation for why this is happening, although I guess it's irrelevant because it's happening whether I like it or not.
This is the hardest part. In my sitch exW herself does not have an explanation for why this is happening except that she is unhappy and feels the need to get away from me to be happy again
My understanding is that a legal separation is the equivalent of a divorce, in that you come to a legal agreement regarding support and how assets are divided, yet you are not formally divorced and thus can retain some of the marriage benefits, such as health insurance.
In their mind the MR is dead. It is surprising how they can almost be cold hearted in approaching things with the split with respect to money. Almost as if all there is no emotion left for all these years of love and togetherness in the MR
I don't know how people do it. It's just so painful right now. That was only two years ago.
It is hard and painful. More painful when you think about how we see all this happening but are helpless to stop it with no control
I also realized that I still don't have a great explanation for why this is happening, although I guess it's irrelevant because it's happening whether I like it or not.
This is the hardest part. In my sitch exW herself does not have an explanation for why this is happening except that she is unhappy and feels the need to get away from me to be happy again
My understanding is that a legal separation is the equivalent of a divorce, in that you come to a legal agreement regarding support and how assets are divided, yet you are not formally divorced and thus can retain some of the marriage benefits, such as health insurance.
In their mind the MR is dead. It is surprising how they can almost be cold hearted in approaching things with the split with respect to money. Almost as if all there is no emotion left for all these years of love and togetherness in the MR
RIGHT? Trust me it gets pettier and pettier once the finances split. Once that snowball gets rolling its going to get tit for tat with everything from the garbage to the dishes to the lawn care to the recycling to the food and to the child care. You feel so removed and things being so petty and cold by their actions while they attempt to maintain niceties to your face that you will start to ask yourself? Does she treat her family, friends, strangers with more compassion? DONT LET THEM CAKE EAT. LIKE FOR LIKE TRADE FOR TRADE WORTH FOR WORTH.
Steve, I want to assure you that you are not alone in thinking this feels like the worst thing a human can go through. I feel like I am licking the floor of Hell. For the past three nights, I have woken up to dreams about reconnecting with my wife. It feels so good, and then I wake up looking at the two feet of space between us in the bed. Those two feet feel so close but also a million miles away. She has always been the love of my life, and to my shock and surprise she doesn't feel the same way about me. Hang in there buddy. Know that there are others like us out here who are suffering alongside each other. Stay strong.
Thanks for all of the real talk regarding the finances. I'm going to hold the line. She does work - after a prolonged period of consulting part-time and trying to make a career of her art - but her income is significantly less than mine. I have no interest in punishing her or being petty, but I also have no interest in being a pushover and leaving myself unprotected. There is a middle ground here that we need to find.
Yes exactly. Be fair, but don't be generous. Because regardless, she more than likely will not appreciate it. WAS's are like the government's new 1040 tax form- "Line 1- how much did you make last year? Line 2- send it in."
It just really reinforced to me, again, that the M as I knew it is over. It's so hard just to be OK with that right now. The dreams we had, the excitement we had for what was ahead of us. I don't know how people do it. It's just so painful right now. That was only two years ago.
It is an absolutely terrible thing to go through. But once you do, you'll really feel like you can get through anything. You'll be stronger and more independent. And there is always the chance that you will reconcile, it'll probably just take a lot longer than you would like.
I also realized that I still don't have a great explanation for why this is happening, although I guess it's irrelevant because it's happening whether I like it or not.
You'll never get a good explanation because most of the time the WAS is not really sure why they are doing it themselves. They are confused, yet resolute.
It was originally brought up to me as a trial separation in order to have space and gain clarity - hence the subject of the thread - but she is holding firm that it needs to be a legal separation.
And when I say "resolute", I mean resolute that they are done and want out of the M. Calling it a "trial separation" is just their way of letting the LBS down slowly, and also dangling the carrot of "hope" out there so the LBS will be more open to giving them everything they want. If you don't give her exactly what she wants then just be ready for the monster to come out. Whoever your wife used to be, she's not that person anymore.
I'm speaking to a lawyer on Thursday, but to me there is a big difference there. My understanding is that a legal separation is the equivalent of a divorce, in that you come to a legal agreement regarding support and how assets are divided, yet you are not formally divorced and thus can retain some of the marriage benefits, such as health insurance.
Yeah in states that have legal separation that's pretty accurate. Some states like mine (TX) don't recognize separation.
RIGHT? Trust me it gets pettier and pettier once the finances split. Once that snowball gets rolling its going to get tit for tat with everything from the garbage to the dishes to the lawn care to the recycling to the food and to the child care.
Amen! So true. I think I shocked people on here back during my sitch when I came here to report that my XW took half the paper towels and even took a bottle and poured half a bottle of dishwashing liquid into it. I AM NOT JOKING. If you had told me anytime before BD that this would be happening I would have laughed in your face, I would have told you my W was the most caring, generous person in the world and would never do such a thing. That's the hardest thing for most LBS's to grasp- this ain't the W you knew.
Thank you all for the replies, I can't quote and respond to them all but they've all be extremely helpful.
Before I left for work today, we had a quick chat and decided that tonight was going to be clear for us to talk through the remaining things before the S on Friday. It's really, really hard to keep an even keel when I see her putting things into boxes, but I've been doing my best. I will admit lots of failure though: at MC, I choked up a few times talking about how I'm feeling and I know tonight is going to be just as hard. I'm not begging, pleading, or anything like that; I'm just hurting.
I'm not having any trouble with GAL, and tonight I think we'll get to..a reasonable place so far as the finances. I'd like some advice on how to address the actual S, because as I said in previous posts, I'm confused and we haven't discussed it much at all.
I don't have the capacity to say "F you, if you want to leave, there's the door" because that's not how I feel, and she'd also immediately know that it's me putting on a front. I don't however have a great understanding of her complaints (and thus not sure how to 180), nor do I have an understanding of how she's approaching the S. Is this really about getting space to gain clarity, or is this just purgatory because we're too afraid to D? When we had the initial BD about a month back, I completely shut down and left the house. It was too overwhelming. But now I don't have much insight or clarity into how she's thinking about it.
It feels like just leaving it completely open-ended is disastrous, particularly combined with my plans of going completely NC and cutting off MC. Tonight I'll have more clarity on why LS vs TS but apart from that, how much of this stuff is worth talking about? I know I want to project indifference and excitement at the opportunity to better myself, but there's so much uncertainty here. I don't expect her to say "In n months, I'll know" but there has to be least some structure, right?
I'm not begging, pleading, or anything like that; I'm just hurting.
Of course you are! And she knows that, but just try to hold it together as best you can.
I'd like some advice on how to address the actual S, because as I said in previous posts, I'm confused and we haven't discussed it much at all.
You don't have children, right? So that makes S a lot less complicated. Really all there is to resolve is what she is taking versus leaving, and how much you will pay her if you choose to do so. I asked my XW to make a list of everything she planned on taking so I could review it to see if I agreed with it all (note that I made her do all the legwork for S). Then we sat down together and reviewed the list and negotiated back and forth a bit. Remember what I said before, don't agree to anything you don't feel is fair just because you hope to appease her because there is no appeasing her right now.
I don't however have a great understanding of her complaints (and thus not sure how to 180)
My XW never told me anything she wanted me to change, when we did MC she had no complaints about me, just said she didn't want to be married anymore. To this day she never has said much about it. But DB'ing gives you a lot of tips on 180's- listening and validating, controlling your anger, getting rid of NGS, getting out and GALing, etc. So focus on that.
nor do I have an understanding of how she's approaching the S. Is this really about getting space to gain clarity, or is this just purgatory because we're too afraid to D?
Right now she's planning to D later, I don't think there's any question of that. But if you leave her alone and remove all pressure that may very well go on hold indefinitely.
how much of this stuff is worth talking about?
Don't talk, just listen and validate. If you're asked questions then answer briefly. Try to keep the focus on W.
I don't expect her to say "In n months, I'll know" but there has to be least some structure, right?
No, because anything she says right now no matter how permanent-sounding is simply a reflection of her current feelings. They will change in a year, or a month, or even in 5 minutes. That's why we call it "script" and "spew" and why Sandi says believe nothing they say and only half of what they do. She's acting emotionally right now and there's no making sense out of it.
Listen to AS.
I firmly believe that WAWs do not need their own place to find themselves or work on the MR. In fact, that is best done while staying in the marital home, IMHO. However, they need their own place to pursue other people. This is difficult to hear, I know. But unless you are an overbearing warlord, then the only thing she needs "freedom" for is to pursue, date and sleep with other people. All other freedom can be had while still cohabiting.
So do exactly as AS suggests. Focus on you. Become the best you you can be!
Don't talk, just listen and validate. If you're asked questions then answer briefly. Try to keep the focus on W.
This is smart - instead of framing it as "*I* need to understand how you're thinking about this", maybe it's instead "Help me understand how I can meet *your* needs for the S". I really do want to listen, because she holds her cards so close to the vest and I just don't have a read at all on her right now.
Oh, and I know there was some disagreement on this, but make yourself scarce on Friday. You are busy. Be out of the house until you know she is gone. This is HER move, not yours. I firmly stand against helping a WAW leave.
Oh, and I know there was some disagreement on this, but make yourself scarce on Friday. You are busy. Be out of the house until you know she is gone. This is HER move, not yours. I firmly stand against helping a WAW leave.
Yep, no worries. I haven't helped her with anything, other than donating some stuff that both had in the corner for awhile to go to Goodwill, and I sure as hell don't plan to now.
Don't talk, just listen and validate.
Read this thread again:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566&page=allIf you're asked questions then answer briefly.
Short and vague if possible.
"I am not sure"
"I have not thought about that"
"I will have to think about that more before I can answer"
"I need time to think about that"
"yes"
"no"
"maybe"
"possibly"
Other phrases that may help:
"I understand you feel that way"
"I am sorry. I can't change the past"
"I want us both to be happy"
Just a quick journal before I head off.
Mixed bag. I certainly let her lead the conversations and validated. She opened to me quite a bit about how she was thinking and got emotional. Unfortunately, so did I. Probably too much. It's really, really tough. The love of my life is leaving, and it's impossible for me not to get choked up when I think about things like our wedding day.
She's dead set on a separation agreement, which she is framing under the logic of "I want it out of the way so we can focus on the more important work, which is healing and understanding what we want." Sure, I can somewhat buy that. I did point back that it's basically a D, just without the file, to which she said she's not thinking about that right now, only what's in front of us.
There's a huge sticking point ahead of us though: she pointed out that when we were naive and in the throes of love, I had said that I viewed marriage as a partnership and everything gets split 50/50, and would be willing to get pre/post-nups as such. I honestly did not know at the time that the split is only for assets gained during the marriage - because why else would Anna Nicole Smith marry that old dude - and now I do. Of course, she is still expecting that and I just can't grant that with the level-headed clarity I have today. Without getting into unnecessary detail, I sold my company right before we got engaged (I know what you're thinking -- they're unrelated), one that I started before I even met her. This is going to be a huge fight, and I don't see how it's not going to destroy all chances of reconciliation.
S day is Friday. It's going to be a tough ride for the near future.
She wants half of your successes prior to the marriage...thinks she should be able to go to another man with half of your money...let that fuel your detachment.
My W thought she should get more than half. I stood firm on the legal advice I had gotten but didn't argue. You're putting yourself first from here out.
Don't give her that power over you.
Anyways, I'm sorry for you. I've been there too and I felt like garbage. I even considered my W the love of my life too.
You'll make it through and be better for it.
She's dead set on a separation agreement, which she is framing under the logic of "I want it out of the way so we can focus on the more important work, which is healing and understanding what we want." Sure, I can somewhat buy that. I did point back that it's basically a D, just without the file, to which she said she's not thinking about that right now, only what's in front of us.
Yes D is her goal for now, but she wants to dangle the carrot of hope out there so you'll be more compliant in the separation agreement.
There's a huge sticking point ahead of us though: she pointed out that when we were naive and in the throes of love, I had said that I viewed marriage as a partnership and everything gets split 50/50, and would be willing to get pre/post-nups as such.
Oh I see, so let me get this straight, she wants to hold you to a statement you made all googly-eyed in love before marriage but she doesn't want to be held to statements that she made IN THE WEDDING TO GOD, FAMILY AND THE WORLD promising to love, honor and cherish until death do you part? Yeah, funny how WAS logic works. Look, what you said doesn't matter, it's not legally binding. Fight for what is yours. I fully believe in being fair in division of assets, but what is "fair" (and legal) is that any pre-M assets do not get split. Period.
I honestly did not know at the time that the split is only for assets gained during the marriage
It doesn't matter, it wasn't a legally binding agreement. No lawyer or judge will think it was. She contributed nothing to whatever assets you accumulated before M.
This is going to be a huge fight, and I don't see how it's not going to destroy all chances of reconciliation.
It won't be a huge fight because there's really nothing to fight about. Your L will laugh at the prospect that she would even attempt to go for pre-marital assets. That aside, you and others on this forum need to quit saying this statement- "XYZ will destroy all chances of reconciliation" because that is ridiculous. No one thing you did got you to this point and no one thing is going to fix it or ruin it. If you think fighting for what is yours (pre-marital assets, child custody, unfair child support and/ or alimony) is going to hurt your chances of a future with your W you are WRONG. If anything she will gain MORE respect for you when you stand up and fight for your rights instead of just being a wuss and giving her everything she wants.
Read this and live this-
QUIT GIVING HER ALL THE POWER!!!!!
It doesn't matter, it wasn't a legally binding agreement. No lawyer or judge will think it was. She contributed nothing to whatever assets you accumulated before M.
She abjectly will not see it that way. She will say that she was there when I sold my company, stood by me, provided emotional support, and so on. And she did. I can't argue any of that. But I don't know how and if that translates to anything financial.
It won't be a huge fight because there's really nothing to fight about. Your L will laugh at the prospect that she would even attempt to go for pre-marital assets. That aside, you and others on this forum need to quit saying this statement- "XYZ will destroy all chances of reconciliation" because that is ridiculous. No one thing you did got you to this point and no one thing is going to fix it or ruin it. If you think fighting for what is yours (pre-marital assets, child custody, unfair child support and/ or alimony) is going to hurt your chances of a future with your W you are WRONG. If anything she will gain MORE respect for you when you stand up and fight for your rights instead of just being a wuss and giving her everything she wants.
Read this and live this- QUIT GIVING HER ALL THE POWER!!!!!
Thank you for the reality check.
She's moving out tomorrow. I've been an absolute wreck all day. I just can't believe how quickly everything changed. I'm trying my best to hold it together, but this hurts more than anything I've ever felt. Nothing is even close.
Finished NMMNG, it felt like I was reading a damn autobiography. I have so much to work on.
Just an addendum to the last post.
I know in a few different threads, people have strongly, strongly advocated not crying or being emotional in front of the WAW. I am trying my best, but it is impossible. I get choked up talking about it with friends, I get choked up talking about it with my IC, I get choked up just seeing her right now.
One day at a time, one foot in front of the other. Tomorrow will be worse than today, but the day after will be better. And the day after, and the day after.
You can’t avoid the grief process. Try to find safe places to be emotional just not in front of your WAW. It does improve but takes time. I’m about 2.5 months in and stopped breaking down maybe 2-3 weeks ago. The emotion is still there but I find a way through it.
Steve,
I've been there man...I seriously thought my life was over and I didn't care about anything without my W. I lost it a lot, I could barely talk to the people who were there to listen. I was choking on words, pain in my head, heart, stomach and throat. Tears waiting on standby for the wrong song to play on the radio... I'm really sorry. I promise you things will get better.
Hey Steve just finished reading your sitch,
Sounds like I am about a month ahead of you, granted my time between BD and S was a bit longer. I know it won’t help but just know that the emotions will lessen day by day. I had breakdowns in my car often after BD. But it seemed that everyday it got a bit easier. This really is a roller coaster of ups and downs but know that eventually those lows won’t be such a dramatic fall and the depths of the downs become less painful.
For me S day was actually quite good. I had expectations that coming home after work to an empty house would be terrible. But when I arrived home I felt calmness. I think it is terribly painful to be IHS and have to see your loved one everyday and know things are bad. But when physical separation happens the space can also be really good for the LBS. it absolutely progressed my detachment. I implore you to stay very busy with GAL and you will find you don’t have the time to be worrying about what W is up to.
She abjectly will not see it that way. She will say that she was there when I sold my company, stood by me, provided emotional support, and so on. And she did. I can't argue any of that. But I don't know how and if that translates to anything financial.
It doesn't matter how she sees it. It matters how the court sees it. From a legal perspective, whatever happened before the marriage isn't legally binding unless it's something you put both your names on. For example, My XW and I lived together for years before we got married. We owned a home. The home was in both our names. I bought a motorcycle about a month before we got married, it was in my name. When we divorced, the home was divided equally, the motorcycle was not. It was my XW's lawyer that advised her that property acquired before the date of the wedding was not community property unless in both of our names. Now your W can rant and rave and make threats but at the end of the day she does not have a legal claim to the business you sold before marriage. It doesn't matter if she was there supporting you, it doesn't matter if you had googly eyes and told her you would happily give half of it to her. Again let me remind you, SHE told YOU that she would remain by your side forever. SHE BROKE THAT PROMISE. Why would she expect you to keep your promise. You promised that in MARRIAGE what's yours is hers. But now she's violated her agreement and destroyed the marriage.
Quit playing by her rules and start protecting yourself. This goes for every single LBS on here.
She's moving out tomorrow. I've been an absolute wreck all day. I just can't believe how quickly everything changed. I'm trying my best to hold it together, but this hurts more than anything I've ever felt. Nothing is even close.
We have a saying in Crossfit- "embrace the suck". Sometimes life hands you a heaping helping of misery, trying to fight it only makes it come back worse later. So feel it, live it, let it happen. Another book for your reading list is "The Happiness Trap", it really delves into the subject of feelings and emotions and how to deal with them. I read it when I was about where you are in my sitch and it really helped a lot.
I know in a few different threads, people have strongly, strongly advocated not crying or being emotional in front of the WAW. I am trying my best, but it is impossible. I get choked up talking about it with friends, I get choked up talking about it with my IC, I get choked up just seeing her right now.
Cry in private. I cried on my 30+ minute commute to work, then pulled it together to work. Then I cried all the way home. Would pull it together in the garage, go in and talk to W and the kids and ask about their day and such, then excuse myself to change clothes and lock myself in the bedroom crying some more. It's OK to cry, but do it in private. The more you let it out in private the easier it is to keep it together in front of others.
One day at a time, one foot in front of the other. Tomorrow will be worse than today, but the day after will be better. And the day after, and the day after.
Exactly right. Don't worry about tomorrow, just deal with today. And if that's too much then just deal with an hour. Or 15 minutes. Everything outside of that block of time you can deal with when it arrives. Try not to spin on what the future looks like, because you don't know. A year from now you could be happily reconciled. I'm divorced but all that just seems like a bad dream now, almost like it never really happened. Whether you reconcile or divorce your future is going to be fantastic, so even though you're in a lot of pain right now, there's no need to worry. Things will work out no matter what happens to your M, I promise.
I know it won’t help but just know that the emotions will lessen day by day. I had breakdowns in my car often after BD. But it seemed that everyday it got a bit easier. This really is a roller coaster of ups and downs but know that eventually those lows won’t be such a dramatic fall and the depths of the downs become less painful.
For me S day was actually quite good. I had expectations that coming home after work to an empty house would be terrible. But when I arrived home I felt calmness. I think it is terribly painful to be IHS and have to see your loved one everyday and know things are bad. But when physical separation happens the space can also be really good for the LBS. it absolutely progressed my detachment. I implore you to stay very busy with GAL and you will find you don’t have the time to be worrying about what W is up to.
Yes, great advice!
Just an addendum to the last post.
I know in a few different threads, people have strongly, strongly advocated not crying or being emotional in front of the WAW. I am trying my best, but it is impossible. I get choked up talking about it with friends, I get choked up talking about it with my IC, I get choked up just seeing her right now.
One day at a time, one foot in front of the other. Tomorrow will be worse than today, but the day after will be better. And the day after, and the day after.
When not in front of her, cry 100% of the time if you have to. In front of her, you are an alpha male. YOU ARE TOO GOOD FOR HER! That is how you should feel, and conduct yourself. There is nothing respectful or attractive about a crying, weepy guy. So in front of her you are a rock. You should be taking the attitude that "you are leaving me? YOUR LOSS!" It is hard to cry with that perspective.
Get angry if you have to (internally, not outwardly). Have an attitude of how dare you blame me for your mess! Use that to keep from being the sad, "woe is me" guy.
Steve, you got this. Dudes with our name are strong. Independent. We don't need a woman to know our worth! So find your worth internally. You are awesome, whether she stays or goes! BE AWESOME!
Steve,
I've been there man...I seriously thought my life was over and I didn't care about anything without my W. I lost it a lot, I could barely talk to the people who were there to listen. I was choking on words, pain in my head, heart, stomach and throat. Tears waiting on standby for the wrong song to play on the radio... I'm really sorry. I promise you things will get better.
Thanks for your perspective. S just happened, we said our goodbyes and now I'm at work. I'll come home to a dramatically different house.
I'm devastated, but it is what it is. I'd love to sit here and say that I took steve85's advice and presented myself as a rock, but I didn't. I couldn't hold it together at all.
She's rewriting so much history, it's almost scary. Misinterpreting things that I've done and said, assigning feelings to me that simply aren't there. She's doing that while simultaneously accusing me of rewriting history, romanticizing our relationship and ignoring the problems. She's probably right about that, though.
The acceleration towards the BD and S still surprises me, but she says she's been unhappy for a while and I just didn't read it or take it seriously. I was operating under the view that she must have had a PA or EA to really kickstart things, but she pushed back again against that, really hard. I've never, ever caught her in a lie so I think she's being honest here. It doesn't make it any easier though - she's been unhappy and our communication patterns weren't enough to resolve it. And that really hurts.
As I've said before, the plan doesn't change. GAL, detach, be the best man I can be. But today is going to be the bottom of the valley.
Hey Steve just finished reading your sitch,
Sounds like I am about a month ahead of you, granted my time between BD and S was a bit longer. I know it won’t help but just know that the emotions will lessen day by day. I had breakdowns in my car often after BD. But it seemed that everyday it got a bit easier. This really is a roller coaster of ups and downs but know that eventually those lows won’t be such a dramatic fall and the depths of the downs become less painful.
For me S day was actually quite good. I had expectations that coming home after work to an empty house would be terrible. But when I arrived home I felt calmness. I think it is terribly painful to be IHS and have to see your loved one everyday and know things are bad. But when physical separation happens the space can also be really good for the LBS. it absolutely progressed my detachment. I implore you to stay very busy with GAL and you will find you don’t have the time to be worrying about what W is up to.
Thank you - I'm very thankful for the empathy and listening and support I've found here.
I'll dig through your posts and see if I can learn anything.
When not in front of her, cry 100% of the time if you have to. In front of her, you are an alpha male. YOU ARE TOO GOOD FOR HER! That is how you should feel, and conduct yourself. There is nothing respectful or attractive about a crying, weepy guy. So in front of her you are a rock. You should be taking the attitude that "you are leaving me? YOUR LOSS!" It is hard to cry with that perspective.
Get angry if you have to (internally, not outwardly). Have an attitude of how dare you blame me for your mess! Use that to keep from being the sad, "woe is me" guy.
Steve, you got this. Dudes with our name are strong. Independent. We don't need a woman to know our worth! So find your worth internally. You are awesome, whether she stays or goes! BE AWESOME!
I definitely don't feel that way right now, but I know you're right. I feel like a failure.
Things will get better.
When not in front of her, cry 100% of the time if you have to. In front of her, you are an alpha male. YOU ARE TOO GOOD FOR HER! That is how you should feel, and conduct yourself. There is nothing respectful or attractive about a crying, weepy guy. So in front of her you are a rock. You should be taking the attitude that "you are leaving me? YOUR LOSS!" It is hard to cry with that perspective.
Get angry if you have to (internally, not outwardly). Have an attitude of how dare you blame me for your mess! Use that to keep from being the sad, "woe is me" guy.
Steve, you got this. Dudes with our name are strong. Independent. We don't need a woman to know our worth! So find your worth internally. You are awesome, whether she stays or goes! BE AWESOME!
I definitely don't feel that way right now, but I know you're right. I feel like a failure.
Things will get better.
Steve, you are 37. You have been out of high school for 20 years now, right?
Are you still friends with the people you were in high school? I am assuming like the rest of us the answer is no, except in a few very rare cases. Are you a failure for that?
It takes two to make a marriage. Only one to make a divorce. There have been spouses that did everything right and still got left by their spouse and D'd. There is only one person you can control on this blue ball hurdling through space, and she ain't it.
Change the locks.
Stay sober.
Go dark.
Do not get baited into ANY interactions. You have one chance to do this right. Give her what she wants. Separation.
It is extremely important that she misses you. That she worries about you.
Do not get baited into ANY interactions. You have one chance to do this right. Give her what she wants. Separation.
It is extremely important that she misses you. That she worries about you.
This will be tough, because we need to finalize and agree on the separation agreement. I'm not sure how to do that without having a conversation in person.
Do not get baited into ANY interactions. You have one chance to do this right. Give her what she wants. Separation.
It is extremely important that she misses you. That she worries about you.
This will be tough, because we need to finalize and agree on the separation agreement. I'm not sure how to do that without having a conversation in person.
Let her own it. She is the one separating.
What are your GAL plans tonight? Tomorrow? Sunday?
I'm not sure how to do that without having a conversation in person.
That is why we are here.
Memorize this:
H:"W, I don't have time right now. If it is important, send me an Email and I will review it when I get a chance. Bye!"
Post her emails here and we can give you guidance on responses.
What are your GAL plans tonight? Tomorrow? Sunday?
Tonight, going to the gym and getting a drink and a bite with friends.
Tomorrow, I see my trainer, and then heading upstate to a friend's lakehouse with a few guys, having a boys weekend type thing. I'll head straight there to the airport, flying to Europe on some business.
Do not get baited into ANY interactions. You have one chance to do this right. Give her what she wants. Separation.
It is extremely important that she misses you. That she worries about you.
This will be tough, because we need to finalize and agree on the separation agreement. I'm not sure how to do that without having a conversation in person.
Let her own it. She is the one separating.
I'm not sure that's possible - there are going to be things that she won't be able to access. Additionally, I have to BD her that I am sticking firm that she has zero rights to anything pre-M.
I don't see her until Friday. When we went through the first parts of the agreement, we both realized that there's data that we both need to chase down in order to come to the table with everything that we need.
Her view is that we should get through the agreement as soon as possible, so that we can have it behind us and move on with creating space. I have zero doubt that I can fully detach and go no-contact at that point.
Hey SteveS just getting updated on your sich. Im sorry you're hurting buddy. But on the upside, it sounds like you have great GAL plans. I know its not the same without your W. Its going to take some time to get used to life readjusting. I can't even say the same yet, im still IHS on my sich. I can say that when things get so far, there is a part of you that lets go, and a part of you that holds on. One day you are thinking "Ahh freedom!" and another day you're thinking "I miss things the way they used to be." There is another side and Im sure you will eventually get there.
I have zero doubt that I can fully detach and go no-contact at that point.
It is all your choice.
Just some journaling.
Friday was really, really hard. I was out with friends until about 11, and came home - emptiness. It was surreal, like a different place altogether. It doesn't feel like my home anymore. I went straight to bed to avoid thinking about it. I woke up, reminded myself I was still alive, and then went to the gym. Another set of friends were nice enough to organize a guys weekend at a lake house upstate, and that's where I'm at right now.
The biggest thing for me right now is dealing with the loneliness. Everything feels so different and so empty. No text messages on my phone, no one checking in to say hello. (Other than the friends I'm currently hanging out with, of course!) It's just a huge, huge difference than the past seven years of my life. I'm sure I'll adjust but it's a heavy emotion right now. I'm trying to tell myself not to be too self-critical, not to beat myself up too much for thinking about her, or even having a dream last night that she was in. The wound is still fresh and this is going to happen, I can't force myself to stop having love for her.
The BD has certainly achieved for me what she set out for it to achieve: I have lots of clarity right now about what's been happening in our MR. Between having time to reflect, reading NMMNG, and talking to my IC, I realized two big things: I've been living a double life with seeking external validation from women, which has caused me - even if I didn't realize it - to not be able to truly connect and be intimate with my WAW. Second, because of my nice-guy tendencies, I avoided conflict and told lots of dumb, white lies that over time completely eroded the trust in the MR. Both of those things are fatal blows. I know I can't change the past but right now I am feeling overwhelming regret and guilt over my behavior and not recognizing these things earlier.
I also know however that all I can do is work on myself, GAL, and be the best version of myself I can be.
I still have no idea how I'm going to handle the separation agreement. It feels like I'm marching towards D-Day.
Steve, the loneliness is natural after so many years of married life. You will get used to coming home to an empty house and probably even start appreciating being able to do what you want. It takes time to get used to change but you will get there. We live in an age of Netflix, Hulu etc. Pick a show and start binge watching it. Or pick up a hobby you always wanted to try. Or get some games on your phone or a video game console. Listen to podcasts. Watch YouTube videos. Go for a walk. Keep your kind distracted and it makes it easy to get past the loneliness. Time and space will help you heal. Take it one day or one minute at a time
It doesn't feel like my home anymore.
Make it yours. Start in the bedroom. Make it "Manly". Then the living room, then the kitchen. New (or different) things. Rearrange things. Put on good music while you do this. Paint the walls.
The biggest thing for me right now is dealing with the loneliness.
Learn to be content alone. Dinners out alone. Doing things alone. Being home alone.
Focus on personal growth. This is one of those areas.
My wife did this to our home when I moved out. She took down all of our family pictures and put up pictures of her and our son. She was the one that initiated the BD.
Is that what she was doing?
It doesn't feel like my home anymore.
Make it yours. Start in the bedroom. Make it "Manly". Then the living room, then the kitchen. New (or different) things. Rearrange things. Put on good music while you do this. Paint the walls.
The biggest thing for me right now is dealing with the loneliness.
Learn to be content alone. Dinners out alone. Doing things alone. Being home alone.
Focus on personal growth. This is one of those areas.
THIS^^^^^^
You can't be happy in a R until you are happy with yourself.
Steve, read up on the LRT. I think it might be time for that in your sitch.
THIS^^^^^^
You can't be happy in a R until you are happy with yourself.
Steve, read up on the LRT. I think it might be time for that in your sitch.
Just did. Looks that way.
It feels kind of petty, but open question: WAW still follows me on all social media (I've unfollowed/muted her); is it a better idea to go completely silent on sharing what I'm doing and leave her wondering, or fill my timeline with shots of me doing something fun?
Also, by way of update, meeting with a lawyer on Thursday to discuss the separation agreement and my plan to hold the line on assets. Not sure what WAW had in mind for when/where we talk on Friday, but I propose a neutral, quiet location like a library, where I can set the tone and be the first one to leave, per LRT. I'd like to avoid having it at my place, since I haven't had a chance to furnish it nor would I be able to be the one to pre-emptively leave.
Just journaling.
Been in Dublin for about 36 hours now, keeping myself busy with work, hitting the gym, and going out to take some photos.
I've been reading about LRT and it appears that's definitely the boat I'm in. I wish I could have been more detached after the BD and the lead up to the S but what's done is done, I can't undo that. I didn't beg, plead, or try to bargain, but I definitely let my emotions get the best of me in front of her. I do however have some concerns that I won't really have much of a way to visibly show 180s, that I went ahead and GAL, etc. now that we're separated.
If there's one thing I know about her, it's that she's extremely attracted to confidence - but then again, who isn't? It's obviously hard to keep my confidence up right now but I have to remember I'm still the man she fell in love with: I'm still tall, strong, funny, and driven in my professional life. If anything my attributes are even better than they were back then.
In the meantime, she emailed about a couch that doesn't fit in her apartment, wanted to see if I wanted it back. I haven't responded yet. We're also seeing each other Friday to talk about the separation agreement.
Other than just doing things for me, I'm sort of at a loss.
Showing 180s is tough bc you risk looking like a peacock. Your 180s probably need more time to firm up so keep working. I have a feeling you haven't seen or heard the last of her.
Have you considering making plans for Friday and telling her to email you a proposal? Why is the face to face necessary? It seems like you are only going to be worse for wear after that. Isn't your time better spent elsewhere? What is so pressing about this separation agreement?
Showing 180s is tough bc you risk looking like a peacock. Your 180s probably need more time to firm up so keep working. I have a feeling you haven't seen or heard the last of her.
Have you considering making plans for Friday and telling her to email you a proposal? Why is the face to face necessary? It seems like you are only going to be worse for wear after that. Isn't your time better spent elsewhere? What is so pressing about this separation agreement?
There's a bunch of things she's not going to be able to access or have insight to, such as my various illiquid assets through the sale of my company. The goal of the meeting is just to bring everything to the table, and hopefully have as productive of a conversation as possible about it. But yes, I do agree - there's no way the conversation ends with us in a better emotional place than we were before.
Y'all are married, what is the separation meeting bringing to the table that she isn't already aware of?
Y'all are married, what is the separation meeting bringing to the table that she isn't already aware of?
It's a question of clarity. For example, she knows I sold my company before we got married. But since she generally trusted me to handle the finances, she has a rough idea for how much, but nothing explicit. She doesn't know how that equity converted into equity in the new company, nor does she know how that equity is currently valued, and so on.
This is one of the paper cuts that caused the S; not feeling like a true partner on things.
I see. I'm hoping someone else chimes in, but I think you just disclose it to her in email so it's documented and give the explicit figures she would need to move forward. Honest, straightforward, the right thing to do.
What are you thoughts Steve? Has your lawyer given any advice on this?
I see. I'm hoping someone else chimes in, but I think you just disclose it to her in email so it's documented and give the explicit figures she would need to move forward. Honest, straightforward, the right thing to do.
What are you thoughts Steve? Has your lawyer given any advice on this?
I'm speaking with my lawyer tomorrow, and getting the lay of the land. WAW will not be happy about the hardline I'm taking w/r/t pre-marital assets, but I have to prepare for my own future and as Steve85 said, I can't buy her back right now.
I hear you that an email would be better as to avoid the unpleasantness, but I'm also hoping that a productive, in-person session where everything is honestly disclosed will show a 180 and an indication of understanding one of her frustrations.
I'm speaking with my lawyer tomorrow, and getting the lay of the land. WAW will not be happy about the hardline I'm taking w/r/t pre-marital assets, but I have to prepare for my own future and as Steve85 said, I can't buy her back right now.
EXACTLY. And I will say again, if she wants to cling to the notion that you gave her some kind of promise, then politely remind her she promised to stick with you "until death do us part." She can't violate the biggest marital agreement of all and expect to hold you to a secondary marital agreement.
I hear you that an email would be better as to avoid the unpleasantness, but I'm also hoping that a productive, in-person session where everything is honestly disclosed will show a 180 and an indication of understanding one of her frustrations.
Don't agree to anything. Just listen and validate. If she asks you to agree to something just state that you will need to discuss it with your lawyer first. I would not disclose ANYTHING about the proceeds from your pre-marital business. If she asks, just remind her that that was pre-marriage and is not subject to division. If she rants and raves and complains then just listen and validate. "I understand this must be very difficult for you."
WAW sent me a quick message earlier today, ahead of our meeting:
"btw don't worry about having everything done tomorrow, we'll work through what we work through!"
Dreading the conversation today, but it is what it is.
One thing I see some mixed messages on where I read other threads is the idea of friendship. I see some people advocating clarity around "I have no interest in being your friend", and other who advocate that friendship is at the heart of any relationship, and once you get to the level of friendship-level meetups, it offers an opportunity to demonstrate the 180s and so on.
I'm obviously a long way from that, but any thoughts? I'd have a very hard time being her friend right now or anytime soon because of the hurt of the S, but I do want to keep doors open if I can.
There is a difference in being friendly 'friendship is at the heart of any relationship, and once you get to the level of friendship-level meetups, it offers an opportunity to demonstrate the 180s and so on.' AND being friend-zoned! "I have no interest in being your friend".
So you have to walk that fine-line. If she starts talking to you about her latest dates with other guys, guess what?
If spouse is actively cheating on you and leaving you for an affair partner:
"I absolutely have no intention on being your friend"
My lady is my lover, not a friend. I have many friends, only one lover. There are many layers to attractions. Focus on being attractive to her. Even if that means not being her friend. Do not get put in the friend zone.
There is a difference in being friendly 'friendship is at the heart of any relationship, and once you get to the level of friendship-level meetups, it offers an opportunity to demonstrate the 180s and so on.' AND being friend-zoned! "I have no interest in being your friend".
So you have to walk that fine-line. If she starts talking to you about her latest dates with other guys, guess what?
Absolutely. I have zero interest in the latter. And I think she knows that.
If spouse is actively cheating on you and leaving you for an affair partner:
"I absolutely have no intention on being your friend"
My lady is my lover, not a friend. I have many friends, only one lover. There are many layers to attractions. Focus on being attractive to her. Even if that means not being her friend. Do not get put in the friend zone.
Well, call me naive, but I have zero evidence of an affair. But yes, at the point in which she is dating someone else, I have very little interest in being a Plan B and/or being around to witness it.
Just a quick journal and an update.
Had a chat with my NMMNG coach right beforehand, just to make sure I was in the right frame of mind.
Got there a bit earlier than her. When she sat down, immediately said I had a hard stop in an hour. I then set a boundary that while I was happy to work through our separation agreement, I would not agree to anything without consulting my lawyer and that I would strongly prefer that we discuss the logistics of our near-term budget as opposed to anything long-term.
Knowing that one of her chief complaints in the MR was a lack of follow-through on things that I said would do, as well as lack of cooperation, I came prepared with documentation of everything she had questions about in regards to the agreement. Easy 180. She was not prepared, which she assigned to being busy at work.
After getting through the documents, I asked her how things were going in her life, and practiced validating and really actively listening. She mentioned in the context of the discussion and how she was doing that if she was sure of what she wanted, she would have just served me papers, and that my continuing to follow-through and cooperate was meaningful for her, as that was one of her biggest complaints during the R. (For some background, I made/make significantly more money than her, and I routinely made decisions without consulting her and actively resisted making changed to our budget, such as saving more, etc., all of which made her feel like a non-partner. She's right about this one.)
Didn't need to get into anything argumentative or non-constructive regarding asset separation, although I assume that since she now knows I've met with counsel, that I also now know what the law says.
Instead, we mostly just chatted and had a friendly light meal at the local diner. I projected confidence and we fell into a very easy rapport, mostly talking about one of our friends who is going through a really, really ugly break up, as opposed to us, which has been amicable to date. Didn't design it this year, but this dude makes me look amazing in comparison.
So, all in all, not bad. I firmly set my boundaries up front, set the expectation that I had to leave, kept somewhat mysterious of what my plans were, and otherwise tried to visibly show 180s and validate. Also, weirdly, she showed up kind of frumpy and not put together, whereas I made sure to look and smell sharp. I was still attracted to her but it was..not the same. Anyway, probably reading too much into it.
Feel good about it. One day at a time.
Please start a new thread
Steve, well done. Dropping NGS and being assertive are keys to earning back respect!
New Thread:
My story, trial separation for now, Part 2