First time poster. In fact, I avoid forums, but I ran across the book and the forums seem to have a nice community about them. Always up to try something new! I'll keep this brief. Haha, maybe not!
Last year I started to attend therapy in response to a traumatic life event. After a couple of months of therapy, I realized I suffered from Childhood Emotional Neglect (CEN). As a child I learned to suppress my emotions and as an adult I just avoid confrontation, passively taking out my frustration. Understanding this was an absolute eye opener. I always felt I was just born weird, but all this time it was simply a lack of understanding emotions. On dealing with this I was reborn and literally awoke to life.
However, before I finished my therapy, my wife initiated separation. She felt neglected and now that the children were older she had enough. She always threatened this but this time she did it. I didn't blame her. I really didn't give her the intimacy she craved and fully understood exactly how I contributed to that isolation. However, I also felt cheated in that I wasn't given the opportunity to finish my transformation and subsequently rectify my contribution to separation.
After separation and during the end of my transformation, I really came out of my emotional shell. I saw my partner in a new light. As a worthy person, whom I don't resent, and deserving of my full love that was always inside but never came out. It didn't matter that we separated. I started expressing myself and attempting affection (but to no avail). It started to look like we'd come around until she then pulled back. Close, yet not there. Maybe I'm being perceived as trying too hard and being needy but from my point of view I'm acting on my feelings. This new me has been around for 6 months and I still live under the same roof as my wife, just in different rooms.
I should point out that finally understand that happiness is my responsibility and despite my situation, which I regard as the worst in my life, I'm actually the happiest I've ever been in my life. My kids are my reason to live, and I see them as my project to ensure they learn to have a healthy outlook on emotions.
About a month ago, I stumbled across a blog that went into deep detail on toxic behaviours and something snapped. I realised that because of CEN I was avoidant and that all my previous relationships were to anxious people. Despite my recovery, I did not recognise and address the boundary violations that occurred (Somehow all this got missed with my psychologist so go figure). I knew I wasn't at fault, but I could never describe why. Now I could. Relationship scorecard, projection, holding the relationship hostage and blaming me for her emotions are the tricks of the anxious. The tragedy is that my children experience some of these tactics too something I'm subtly addressing.
WIth this new revelation I can now stand my ground and no longer feel like sh$t. The corresponding anger and manipulation cycles with civility and almost the hope of being together. I'm always calm in these generated conflicts and confidently deflect all her tricks. When she has a point, I even acknowledge it. Sometimes the arguments are just ridiculous and inside I just laugh. Gotta see the positive.
I'm still not at the point where I can confidentially bust up my family by walking away (She already tried to manipulate me to do that, and I stood my ground). She has so many other great attributes like bringing joy to life in a way I can't. I could almost accept her silly tricks if I knew she was putting in an effort to change. I know can't make her change, but she has noticed my transformation. I can see she backs off on some of her toxic behaviour even though she won't admit it.
But here is my point. I have to wonder, does the Last Resort Technique apply here? Could it ever? Does the LRT even make sense if the other is anxious? I've seriously thought of implementing this. I was already doing different things long before I even discovered LRT interestingly enough and LRT seems compelling enough to try. But I'm unsure how it would work if we are still under the same roof. Seems to me "going dark" would only heighten the anxiety and prove that I can't communicate. I can avoid relationship talk and I need not act happy as I already am. But I can't just snub her.
Deep down I know an anxious person is not for me and ultimately if she doesn't change I must leave. But let's assume that she is capable of change and I am strong enough and willing to put up with fending off her manipulations.
What do you all think? Thoughts? Comments?
If you have questions, just ask. One hundred percent transparent here. No avoidance.
-j
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Which bedroom are you staying in?
After separation and during the end of my transformation, I really came out of my emotional shell. I saw my partner in a new light. As a worthy person, whom I don't resent, and deserving of my full love that was always inside but never came out. It didn't matter that we separated. I started expressing myself and attempting affection (but to no avail). It started to look like we'd come around until she then pulled back.
It's good that you've made these changes, but I'd not think they are solidified just yet. Continue to work to make those positive changes part of the rest of your life.
When she has a point, I even acknowledge it. Sometimes the arguments are just ridiculous and inside I just laugh. Gotta see the positive.
Awesome!
But here is my point. I have to wonder, does the Last Resort Technique apply here? Could it ever? Does the LRT even make sense if the other is anxious? I've seriously thought of implementing this. I was already doing different things long before I even discovered LRT interestingly enough and LRT seems compelling enough to try.
LRT worked great for my situation, which is much different than yours. LRT gave me the space to calm down, relax, and breathe a little. It did the same for my spouse. Michele says the LRT is when your spouse says they want a divorce and they are serious. So I dunno, it's tough to say whether or not you should do this yet. Are you considering filing for divorce? Maybe this is the last resort before you file then.
Seems to me "going dark" would only heighten the anxiety and prove that I can't communicate.
But, through her request of separation, hasn't she indicated that she doesn't want to communicate with you in that way?
Going dark means no communication, no contact whatsoever. I don't think you are there yet.
I came from a similar household where my father didn't allow people to feel free and open to be themselves and communicate in healthy ways. It takes a looonnnnggggg time to change that . Your W is used to interacting with you in a certain way. If you are changing that dynamic, she is going to have trouble adjusting - but she will adjust one way or the other. It takes a lot of time for her to figure this out. You need to be patient and not engage in fights. She may even try to change things back to how they were (probably not on purpose or consciously) b/c that is what she is familiar with. She is just used to that old dynamic.
However, before I finished my therapy, my wife initiated separation.
Please let us know you're basic info- ages of you, W and the kids, how long you were married, when was BD. How long do you feel you were neglecting her? She may have been done and planning her exit long before you started therapy.
She always threatened this but this time she did it.
Going back how far? What did she cite as the reasons?
However, I also felt cheated in that I wasn't given the opportunity to finish my transformation and subsequently rectify my contribution to separation.
This is the reason I'm asking for dates, if she's been enduring a decade or more of neglect and threatening to leave for that long, and you've just now started changing then I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect her to wait around to see what happens. Right now she has no reason to believe you will change, or that your changes will be permanent. She needs time to see and believe that.
It didn't matter that we separated. I started expressing myself and attempting affection (but to no avail).
Of course it mattered that you had separated. The whole idea of separation is to give her time and space, and instead you were trying to smother her with affection. Try and imagine what that looked like to her. She probably hated it.
Maybe I'm being perceived as trying too hard and being needy but from my point of view I'm acting on my feelings.
DB'ing is setting aside your own point of view and trying to see things from hers. And yes you are probably correct that you just looked needy, desperate and clingy to her.
despite my situation, which I regard as the worst in my life, I'm actually the happiest I've ever been in my life. My kids are my reason to live, and I see them as my project to ensure they learn to have a healthy outlook on emotions.
Good! Keep moving in that direction.
WIth this new revelation I can now stand my ground and no longer feel like sh$t. The corresponding anger and manipulation cycles with civility and almost the hope of being together. I'm always calm in these generated conflicts and confidently deflect all her tricks. When she has a point, I even acknowledge it. Sometimes the arguments are just ridiculous and inside I just laugh.
What do you mean by stand your ground and "deflect all her tricks"? Have you read Cadet's links, especially the one on validation? What are these "anger and manipulation cycles" you are referring to? Sounds like there's a lot about the dynamic between the two of you that you are brushing off. You need to become the master of keeping your cool, listening and validating.
I could almost accept her silly tricks if I knew she was putting in an effort to change.
What do you think she needs to change? Sounds like you're the one that needs to change, and that your actions and inactions are responsible for the trauma to the M. What do you mean by "silly tricks"?
Deep down I know an anxious person is not for me and ultimately if she doesn't change I must leave.
You started out accepting blame for things but you slowly transitioned to blaming her. Don't you think all those years of neglect and ignoring her needs may be what made her "anxious"?
Helpful replies, thank you. Some answer to questions:
I'm in the master bedroom; she is in spare. We've been together for 10 years, married for 9. I'm 44, she's 40. Kids 8 and 5 and both highly sensitive. I would have been neglectful to my wife probably from the point we moved in together. And the reason was that (and this is me looking back) she was and is emotionally abusive, what I refer to as tricks. This triggered my CEN so I just shutdown. Behavioural examples would be to move my things and argue that she needs space and that I'm too OCD. Or complain that I didn't do something properly, but she either never explained to me she liked it that way or change her position. Or to interrupt vulnerable conversations by reflecting the conversations back to her. The worst is that any negative feedback is already treated as an attack so full arguments and hurtful manipulation ensures. For sure my reactions only expounded her anxiety but I wouldn't say I created it. She has a few times admitted she is an anxious person.
Yes, she has been planning her exit. She told me as such. And about 4 years ago she started to say she will after any argument. A warning sign in hindsight but she always talks in extremes so I just ignored.
Yes, I've read about validation, and this is something I started doing about 8 months ago as part of my transformation. Not something I've done before since, well, I felt scared to speak up.
Yes, she picks fights, but less so since separation. But when she does pick a fight I spend a LOT of enegry to not be dragged down, to stay distant, and to stick to the situation. She loses steam and then typically ends the flight with "I just can't live with you". One a week ago was where my daughter came to me upset that wife wouldn't stop pushing her on a swing even when my daughter said stop. I just causually told my wife that the daughter was upset that you didn't stop when she said stop. Oh boy. A 30 minute tirade of excuses, complaints about the daughter, sarcasm, and blaming my daughter for "playing me". I also stopped her many times from bringing up the past. I told my wife that she is choosing to react this way and that she could have said "that's not what happened", "I'm sorry I'll talk to her", or "thank you". Two days later the same fight happens again. Which is odd. I know she felted shameful and did apologise to my daughter.
Just recently she started to avoid me and said point blank I phyiscally make her ill, and I'm a nice guy, but there is no chance of reconciliation. She said she dreds me coming home each day. But then I can say with confidence in a couple days time she will be happy that i'm looking after the kids. I just see this as the polarised extremes which I'm told anxious people have. I always tell her my love is unconditional and will stay that way regardless of how we end up.
In any event I see LRT is not appropriate here and that I should just keep spending time with kids and doing my own thing and give her space. I see that. I'm also coming to terms that what's probably best for me is not getting back together. Perhaps if I really am moving out or she does then LRT makes sense.
All advices are helpful, thank you. I don't mind the critisim because it puts things into perspective and helps me to understand how I contributed to things and what I can change.
Why are you considering moving out? She wants to separate then she should be the one to move.
"And the reason was that (and this is me looking back) she was and is emotionally abusive"
So if this is true then why are you not demanding she gets help OR you will D her? Toxic behavior should be a deal breaker unless the one behavingin a toxic manner is willing to recognize it and get help for it.
Have you read sandi's rules? You should, and institute them immediately.
Good points. Why do I feel I should move out? She should! Guess feeling a bit defeated at the moment. Actually this came up a month ago and I flatly refused even though her logic was sound. "You will be close to work" she said. I said I'd be crushed if I couldn't see my kids every day. Never came up again.
Not sure if I'm willing yet to bring up her seeking help. Maybe if things got better because it's certainly a boundary that can no longer be crossed.
Yeah, I've certainly messed up a few of Sandi's rules. I vow to start immediately, they are good advices. Feel energised to keep at it.
Thanks Steve85.
In the future, nothing will crush you. Instead, you'll deal with things and make the best of them.
I wouldn't bring up her seeking help if I were in your shoes. She's going to tell you to kiss her you know what.
Want to thank you for pointing me to sandi's list. I stopped the behaviour that was deemed "needy" and I have to say I've noticed the difference. I also read someone on this forum who pointed out about being the first to end a conversation or to leave a room. I've adopted some of that too. And lastly, do something different. I love it and I have. I hate cooking but I forced myself. The validation was when the kids said it was better than Mum's. Different indeed!
I've noticed repeated attempts to bring up the future (without me of course) but I avoid all talk or just agree with her feelings. In any event I read the list every morning so I'm conscious of what I need to do.
In any event I love everyones advice here. Thank you so much for helping me push through. It's exhausting to continually plan my actions knowing it mightn't even work out. But there are always little signs I can see which gives hope.
Yes, she picks fights, but less so since separation. But when she does pick a fight I spend a LOT of enegry to not be dragged down, to stay distant, and to stick to the situation. She loses steam and then typically ends the flight with "I just can't live with you". One a week ago was where my daughter came to me upset that wife wouldn't stop pushing her on a swing even when my daughter said stop. I just causually told my wife that the daughter was upset that you didn't stop when she said stop. Oh boy. A 30 minute tirade of excuses, complaints about the daughter, sarcasm, and blaming my daughter for "playing me". I also stopped her many times from bringing up the past. I told my wife that she is choosing to react this way and that she could have said "that's not what happened", "I'm sorry I'll talk to her", or "thank you". Two days later the same fight happens again. Which is odd. I know she felted shameful and did apologise to my daughter.
Wow OK so she clearly has some issues! Sometimes I read stuff like this and wonder why the LBS wasn't the one that dropped the bomb!
Just recently she started to avoid me and said point blank I phyiscally make her ill, and I'm a nice guy, but there is no chance of reconciliation.
Believe it or not this is not at all unusual. Sometimes it shocks people here when we tell them their WAS doesn't like them, may hate them, and probably even finds them repulsive. But that's a reflection on how she feels at this moment in time, it can and will change with time. However, you have to act and speak now with this in mind. Obviously you don't want to pursue and be needy to someone that feels ill at the sight of you. The ONLY thing that works against that mindset is pulling back and giving her lots of time and space.
She said she dreds me coming home each day. But then I can say with confidence in a couple days time she will be happy that i'm looking after the kids. I just see this as the polarised extremes which I'm told anxious people have.
I'm not saying she is or isn't anxious, but it's actually pretty typical for a WAS to despise the LBS and want nothing to do with him, but at the same time enjoy some cake-eating of letting him do things for her. Don't be confused though, she's not waffling between pushing you away and pulling you back. She is DONE right now and that isn't changing (but it may much later).
I always tell her my love is unconditional and will stay that way regardless of how we end up.
Try not to say things like that anymore, saying things like that is pressure on her and she wants zero pressure right now.
Sounds like Boarderline Personality Disorder or BPD to me. It's emotional regulation issues ranging from characteristics or benign to malignant. The anxiety is caused by fast paced thoughts, not having enough emotional release, compulsive thinking , and extreme thinking and thought hopping which is going on in the back of the person's mind even though it may not be relevant to the situation at hand and time. People with mild forms of ADD also have this. Hence "The Jeckyl and Hyde Effect"
I've read the no more Mr. Nice Guy book. Wow, so many behaviours that relate to who I was and so many more I need to fix. I can really relate, especially the avoiding sex part. That was the biggest complaint from my W and I could never figure out why. Now I'm really craving it.
Wonder about thoughts on my current sitch. Things have been well since I backed off all affectionate touching and hugs. No more thinking about you sms or nice postits before work. It feels like we are married sans anything physical. I'm on a family holiday and we've been sharing a bed. First time in 9 months. W has been dropping little barbs like I snore too much, forgot how that ruined my life. My POV is she never set the boundary. No touching in bed, nice chats, all good. Well today at dinner she said she hates it, I have to sleep on the couch, it's been stressing me this trip, thats why im eating lots of chocolate. Oh and we are friends and "I'm single". She's mentioned the friend thing before, but first time she said single. She also reminded me (again) she wants to move out with kids.
I'm detached outside (but hurting inside). I say ok, I understand, no Im not upset, your choice, out of my control, you know how I feel. Felt like she was trying for an argument. I said I was going out and I'll be late (you know GAL. Since I'm single according to her, why not? I didn't know where to go because I'm in a foreign city but I had a fun night having ended up in a bar and chatted up some locals).
Feels to me she wants an argument. She admitted again I've changed and I wonder if she's fishing for an argument so she can justify her decision. I also admitted I'm happy while I see her not.
I'm really going up and down in emotions because I don't think I've fully detached. I feel removing my wedding ring (she did so months ago) might be a symbolic effort to show detachment. GAL for me is hard because I dont have friends anymore and I just go out solo.
Any advice or comments?
Wonder about thoughts on my current sitch. Things have been well since I backed off all affectionate touching and hugs. No more thinking about you sms or nice postits before work. It feels like we are married sans anything physical. I'm on a family holiday and we've been sharing a bed. First time in 9 months. W has been dropping little barbs like I snore too much, forgot how that ruined my life. My POV is she never set the boundary. No touching in bed, nice chats, all good. Well today at dinner she said she hates it, I have to sleep on the couch, it's been stressing me this trip, thats why im eating lots of chocolate. Oh and we are friends and "I'm single". She's mentioned the friend thing before, but first time she said single. She also reminded me (again) she wants to move out with kids.
First of all, detach. Don't let her get to you, and stay cool. Lots of people snore, so what? Some are also flatulent...
If she hates it, she can sleep on the couch. She's the one with the problem, so she should be doing something to fix it, not making you work around her. So you stay in the bed, be calm, and prepare for her to be mad about this. Don't let it stress you, reread the detachment thread, go for a walk, do something fun. Forget her. Really, forget her. Do things for you. Enjoy your holiday. Holiday is how y'all say vacation right?
As far as her saying she's single I would just use that moment to boot her out of the bedroom and tell her that she isn't your "friend". Of course she wants to argue, she needs you to be mean to justify all her crap. Don't serve it up. Don't worry about not being fully detached, you probably aren't but just keep on working! I am an advocate for removing the wedding ring. It shows her something, but more importantly it removes a burden from your head. Put it somewhere out of sight and leave it be IMO. If she's in rebellion mode, saying she's single and y'all are friends, wearing that ring shows her you're still trying, hoping, wishing....don't give her that.
I think you're doing a great job detaching and GAL. Good on you.
Wonder about thoughts on my current sitch. Things have been well since I backed off all affectionate touching and hugs.
One of Michele's basic rules is keep doing what works and stop doing what doesn't work! If things are going well then maintain the status quo on that front.
I'm on a family holiday and we've been sharing a bed. First time in 9 months. W has been dropping little barbs like I snore too much, forgot how that ruined my life. My POV is she never set the boundary. No touching in bed, nice chats, all good. Well today at dinner she said she hates it, I have to sleep on the couch, it's been stressing me this trip, thats why im eating lots of chocolate. Oh and we are friends and "I'm single". She's mentioned the friend thing before, but first time she said single. She also reminded me (again) she wants to move out with kids.
Family holidays are just too much pressure on a WAS. She doesn't like you right now, she may even hate you. Every little thing rubs her the wrong way. So a family vacation will have you in front of her WAY too much. Don't plan anymore such events. That will have to wait until such time that she starts to like you again, which is a long ways off.
I'm detached outside (but hurting inside). I say ok, I understand, no Im not upset, your choice, out of my control, you know how I feel. Felt like she was trying for an argument.
Sounds like you are listening and validating, so good job! She more than likely is looking to start a fight, so that's a good way to defuse things.
I'm really going up and down in emotions because I don't think I've fully detached.
It takes a while, be patient with yourself! It took over a year after separation for me to really detach. There were many times along the way that I THOUGHT I was detached, but realized later I still wasn't.
GAL for me is hard because I dont have friends anymore and I just go out solo.
Check into Meetup.com, many LBS's here swear by it. It's a good way to meet new people and do things you've always wanted to try. But that said, there's no harm in having solo GAL activities (you should strive for a mix of both). GAL is anything to get you away and get your mind on other things.
Well I'm on the couch since I got home late. I'm too nice, yeah, she should sleep on the couch! Still work needed to shed Mr. Nice guy I see. Ring disappears tomorrow and should be interesting because I also bought some new clothes. I'm going to ask for her to sleep on the couch tomorrow night since she has the problem. Nicely put, and I'm going to use those words. That level of assertiveness would also be a 180 for me. And I'll be vague about what I've been up to last night. You know "I'm reflecting".That would be a 180 too. Last time I was vague about going out the curiosity just killed her!
Unfortunately this trip was planned before she announced the separation. In two days we move on to another city and she wants to have it so one kid sleeps with an adult. Fine by me.
Meet ups was mentioned to me by a local crisis line which I used once. I'll give that a go.
Someone commented why LBS (me) didn't walkaway earlier. Well, because I had no concept of boundaries nor emotional intelligence. Yeah, i should have addressed that years ago but I simply did not have the ability. Only now after 3 failed relationships and pending 2nd failed marriage, do I realise that Mr. Nice Guy is a consequence of emotional neglect. And Mr. Nice Guy liked unstable, emotional women because he had none of that in his life (first time I describe myself in 3rd person!) I don't blame myself for this, just glad I found it out now. And you know what? I'm not sure if W is really suitable for who I now am becoming. IC warned me of this. I really feel now that unless she can make enough changes (so far minimal) my needs need to be filled elsewhere. In otherwords she can't satisfy what I now need in a relationship. And I see her thinking about my boundaries too. First time I see she caught herself about to blame the kids on something she did. Was quite proud because the last time she did that I said you can't have our kids own your emotions, that's your problem!
Anyhow, helpful to get such quick responses. Feel more positive and energised to take on the day. This is why I like this forum!
Sounds like Boarderline Personality Disorder or BPD to me. It's emotional regulation issues ranging from characteristics or benign to malignant. The anxiety is caused by fast paced thoughts, not having enough emotional release, compulsive thinking , and extreme thinking and thought hopping which is going on in the back of the person's mind even though it may not be relevant to the situation at hand and time. People with mild forms of ADD also have this. Hence "The Jeckyl and Hyde Effect"
Looked up impulsive borderline personality and that has a pretty good description of W. She's definately anxious and with narcissistic tendencies but she does not have all characteristics so who knows. Never would I bring it up, she didn't talk to me for two weeks when I suggested years ago she had PND (which she did and admitted years later).
I'm going to ask for her to sleep on the couch tomorrow night since she has the problem. Nicely put, and I'm going to use those words. That level of assertiveness would also be a 180 for me.
I wouldn't ask her anything, just sleep in the bed. If she complains then listen and validate, but stand your ground that you're sleeping in the bed.
"I'm sorry my snoring bothers you."
"Then you'll sleep on the couch?"
"Heh heh! No I'm sleeping here."
Unfortunately this trip was planned before she announced the separation. In two days we move on to another city and she wants to have it so one kid sleeps with an adult.
Ahhh yes. After BD my XW found a thousand reasons that she HAD to sleep with one of the kids. I imagine that's what's going on, it's an excuse for her not to sleep in the same bed as you.
I really feel now that unless she can make enough changes (so far minimal) my needs need to be filled elsewhere. In other words she can't satisfy what I now need in a relationship.
If that's the case then so be it. Just make sure you do something to break the pattern next time!
Josh, you cannot nice her back. All being "nice" will do is make you look weak and unworthy of respect. Which means she won't be reattracted to you. Women's attraction follows respect.
I wouldn't ask her anything, just sleep in the bed. If she complains then listen and validate, but stand your ground that you're sleeping in the bed.
"I'm sorry my snoring bothers you."
"Then you'll sleep on the couch?"
"Heh heh! No I'm sleeping here."
Love it! I need to think more like that! Makes the point in a very assertive way! And quite a 180 from Mr. Nice guy!
Josh, you cannot nice her back. All being "nice" will do is make you look weak and unworthy of respect. Which means she won't be reattracted to you. Women's attraction follows respect.
I know. It's like instinct. I'm reflecting on two things I did today where instantly offered to do something nice so W wasn't inconvenienced. The positive is that not being nice is a healthy change for me and demonstrates a 180. My current WIP. Not to be so nice and to enforce more boundaries.
Wife's birthday in two weeks. Old Josh says get a card, write you are the most important relationship to me, and get her a gift certificate to a spa.
Not so nice Josh thinks this is pursuing and that W needs to know what it will be like "as friends". He suggests an SMS on the day or a verbal happy birthday should they see each other in the morning. Plus a card from the kids.
Seriously though, what's appropriate? Over the years I gave nice thoughtful gifts and hers were not thoughtful and even IOUs that never materialised.
Thinking out loud, maybe I could just ask what she wants to do and take it from there...
Get up that morning. When you pass her in the house say happily and cheerily: "Happy Birthday!"
That's it.
She fired you as her husband. Don't do what a H would do.
Seriously though, what's appropriate? Over the years I gave nice thoughtful gifts and hers were not thoughtful and even IOUs that never materialised.
Wow, seriously??? Man that is so messed up. How old are your kids? Are they to the age where her birthday would be a big deal to them and THEY would be upset if they didn't get her something? If so then help them pick something out. If they don't care then don't bother given her past behavior.
Thinking out loud, maybe I could just ask what she wants to do and take it from there...
And do you think that would be alpha or beta behavior?
D8, S5. No I don't think they'd be upset. They can make her a card. That's it.
Interestingly, W seems to forget I have shared access to her calendar. There is a date in Oct to "Hire a lawyer, work out a creative coparenting arrangement, and make it official. A future of non-Disney enchantments awaits!" followed by a week-long trip to Bali. Then there is another entry a month later to move out and Josh moves nearby. Interesting how that would work since I've said I'm not moving out.
So my takeways are, besides Sandi's list which are gold, is think and act like an alpha-male friend. Helpful when I'm faced with a Nice Guy scenario.
Thanks guys for advice. I need work to do on dumping the H mindset and Mr Nice Guy boundaries.
So I tried the, I'm sleeping in the bed, you take the couch. I just got into bed and she asked when are you going to tell me? I said now. I wad on couch last night. Not happy but stood my ground. Remember I'm in vacation atm and it isn't fun. Then she talks about a deadline to do a property settlement. And wow, talk about eating cake. Family beach home goes in trust to kids with goal to turn into duplex, we split the halves and use until we die. Major city investment property to her and minor out of state to me. Which suits her because she can live in the city unit and use her half of beach house. Which doesn't suit me because I don't want to live near her and she winds up with more in her name! And if I ever want to repartner I don't have access to capital.
So this to me doesn't sound like a confused WAW. I've stalled but her rationale is she brought more to the marriage even though law doesn't see it that way. I always said I would look after family but now that my eyes are open to Mr. Nice Guy I see this as more selfishness. I do want to look after my kids but not at the expense of my future.
I feel DB isn't working and the more I get sucked into these conversations the further reconciliation seems. I feel her acceptance of my boundaries is more resignation. There is no OP AFAIK (just brief EA lasting couple weeks).
Let me rephrase, DB is working for me. I have expectation that we could be back together. And there lies my problem I guess.
Thoughts?
A future of non-Disney enchantments awaits!
Oh my gosh you've got to be kidding! Wow, the fantasy world some WAS's live in just blows my mind. A couple in my neighborhood split up, the woman was a WAS. She left, got her own place, engaged in a GGW lifestyle and got a tattoo of a dragonfly on her lower back with text in Latin that translated to "She's Finally Free!" 6 months later she was back at home like nothing ever happened.
So I tried the, I'm sleeping in the bed, you take the couch. I just got into bed and she asked when are you going to tell me? I said now. I wad on couch last night. Not happy but stood my ground.
Good. And no, don't expect her to like it. It's all about gaining back respect which she absolutely will NOT like giving you. You're laying the groundwork for her to see you and respect you and admire you as a person at some point down the road, not right now.
Family beach home goes in trust to kids with goal to turn into duplex, we split the halves and use until we die. Major city investment property to her and minor out of state to me. Which suits her because she can live in the city unit and use her half of beach house. Which doesn't suit me because I don't want to live near her and she winds up with more in her name! And if I ever want to repartner I don't have access to capital.
If it doesn't suit you then flat out tell her you do not find it acceptable. If she asks what you do find acceptable then tell her whatever it is- selling everything and splitting the proceeds, or her buying you out or whatever it is. Don't buy into HER fantasy break-up. Stand your ground and fight for your rights.
I feel DB isn't working and the more I get sucked into these conversations the further reconciliation seems.
I've read so many sitches over the years, and of those that reconciled almost without exception it didn't happen until the LBS said they were convinced it was impossible and they completely let go. You know that saying "it's always darkest just before the dawn", there's a lot of truth in it when it comes to recon.
Josh, do not give up the MBR or marital bed. Period. Do not get into a "tonight I sleep on the couch, tomorrow you do" arrangement.
When you are ready, get ready, and go get in bed. Even if she is in there first. When she protests, calmly say: "I understand how you feel, however, this is my bed and I am going to sleep here. If you'd prefer to sleep elsewhere that is up to you." Then turn over and go to sleep.
On the property plan. Listen to AS. Solid advice. I'd also talk to a D attorney, ASAP. Trust me on this, it is one of the best moves I made in my sitch! When she brings it up remember a response like this: "There is a lot to consider and I am not ready to give you any answers right now." If she pushes, listen and validate.
DB isn't working? So many LBSs fall into the trap of "I did this DB technique, and my W threatened to file for D. It doesn't work." Let me ask you, other than talking, what actions has she taken? Has she filed? Moved out? Hired an attorney? My W loved to throw out her "plans" in my sitch. I remember the night I told her that in order to stay together we would need complete transparency. She said "Ok, I need to work on my resume and get things moving." As in she was moving forward with the D. She worked on it that night and the next morning, then abandoned it. I had a bad moment where I asked her to see her phone, she handed it over and then came back that she was going to file for D because it was never going to work. When you do something she doesn't like she will talk. But what are her actions? Believe nothing she says. Nothing. Positive or negative. And believe only have of what she does.
Josh, you make one DBing move (taking back the MBR) and then declare DB a failure. These things take time. Some of the best advice I got in my sitch was to not gauge her temperature every minute, hour, or day. Our sitches are like the stock market. There will be minute to minute, hour to hour, day to day fluctuations. Judge things by trend over time. Take stock once a month, or every other month. Ask yourself how well you DB'd (GAL, 180s, detachment). Then see what effect it may have had on your sitch. Not just with her, but with you.
You got this man!
Get a lawyer as soon as possible. She thinks, based on all of your prior interactions, that you'll just fold and accept whatever she says the settlement will be. Disabuse her of that notion. Do this with respect to your marital property and your future custody rights.
Do you think she's planning to go to Bali by herself?
Thanks guys. Yeah she is full of talk. Only real action to date was to leave MBR and announce separation. No other action has been taken. I was thinking of finding a D lawyer so I'm prepared but if no action has been taken l yet what is the advantage now? To know realistically what could happen? If she finds out wouldn't that just escalate things? If she handed me something to sign I'd totally be getting a lawyer. But now?
Her view is to secure property before moving out. She doesn't want to rent so clearly not that desperate to move out. Her period is coming up and heavy talks seem to always arise around that time. Which is now, of course.
My DB actions have included GAL and 180s and when we are back home (remember im on vacation atm) I'll be doing more GAL including a weekend away.
Yeah I've been thinking about the property thing over and over and will think of something. She tried to guilt about my promise to keep family house, but nothing was said about this new fantasy. I'll think of something but for sure I'm not letting her bully me into what she wants. Her D, she suffers the consequences. Kids are out of control today, don't think she realises how it will be when physically separated. Her fantasy is for me to move close by so that I can rescue her when kids are crazy. I've always said no when this talk comes up. It's weird how she is so sure how things need to end up. I'm really calm with kids and she isn't.
Anyway, thanks for reminding me, actions are what count. And no serious actions yet. I think back month by month and really not much has happened. Good reminder, this is just a blip.
Bali is most likely solo. I don't believe there is OM, as I haven't seen any scurrying into her bedroom in the evening like with her brief EA. What won't be happening is her asking me to take my leave so I can stay home with kids. That happened on her trip to Europe a few months back.
Your W sounds a lot like mine. She had it all planned out. Quickie online cheap D. Wanted none of "my" money. Just maybe some furniture. If keep house, she'd have an apartment nearby. She'd have a key to help with dogs, have dinner at the house a couple times a week. D would live with me and come for visits. She'd host dinners at the apartment occasionally.
She'd get a job to enable her life. Oh and we'd go out on dates.
The one thing that always went through my head was the words that women don't need their own place to find or work on themselves or on the marriage. They need their own place to sleep with other people.
I'd dispel that fairy tale whenever I could. I told her we'd sell the house and split the equity and all other assets. If move in with a friend of mine. Etc. She'd balk at that. I would tell her "it's no fair you get to go out and start I new life but expect that I don't as well."
That seemed to make an impact. Notice I wasn't saying "I'm going to fight for the marriage at all costs." I was actually embracing what she wanted, and pointing out that is be moving on too.
It also hit her with guilt. Over the splitting of money, and D losing her family home.
Steve,
Funny you jogged my memory on her Fantasty where I live nearby and she comes over to cook me dinner with kids. You know, whilst the duplex is being built. Very good point about apartment and living a life.
You've nailed what I've been feeling but could not articulate. I need to start my life without her. And that means living not close, not in a duplex, and having the means to buy a new place when I repartner. I need to start a new life, not livd her fantasy. Thanks, something I might say when she pressures on action.
When I'm back from vacation, I'm going to do a different GAL. We do tend to watch TV together after kids are in bed. I'm intending to just leave for gym or concert or whatever. No goodbyes, just leave. Alternative is to just go to my room, play guitar, practice a new language, whatever. I feel I'm not GALing enough to make a difference for me and for my W to take notice. I'm still too present for it to sink it that I'm not her H.
So I'm back from vacation. The last few days she had trouble sleeping. And I know why. She is rattled when I said I'm not going to support her. Her wheels are turning because her fantasy property settlement isn't possible. I recall her words about "promising to support me" (which I didn't, I promised to support keeping the family home) and "is there something I should be worried about?". Which I said "no" but probably should have said "I don't know how you feel, that is up to you".
I confirmed with some quick math that any split will involve a complete breakup of the family if she wishes to indulge in her apartment fantasy. So this could be an interesting escalation.
Here's my question to y'all. We had great family time, with ups and downs, on our trip. I went out and did my own thing a few times but other than that it felt like a normal family relationship except intimacy. So moving forward, if I recall from DB, any family times I should be present, but otherwise no? What about things like family dinners at her parents? Obviously I attend my Son's birthday party, but what about her family get togethers? Or if She wants to go out for a birthday dinner? I'm just wanting to know what the appropriate DB line to draw here.
The next big test is GAL this week. I'm dropping all time together after kids go to bed. I'm going out each night to gym or just faking it and smoking in the car. I'm just going to tell her "I'm going out" and that's it.
What about SMSs in the daytime? Sometimes there are complaints and things that are not child related. Ignore, reply, or just tell her to not do it any more? I read somewhere that encouraging SMS just keeps me in the friend zone and it should strictly be "business" only.
I'm looking to ratchet up the DB as I feel it needs to go to the next level. Just trying to understand the boundaries since I still live with her and we have young kids.
So I'm back from vacation. The last few days she had trouble sleeping. And I know why. She is rattled when I said I'm not going to support her.
Good! Let her sweat a little.
I recall her words about "promising to support me" (which I didn't, I promised to support keeping the family home)
Yes and she promised to love, honor and cherish until death do you part. Next time she decides to hold you to a promise you made, you might want to remind her of that one. Promises are not legally binding.
Here's my question to y'all. We had great family time, with ups and downs, on our trip. I went out and did my own thing a few times but other than that it felt like a normal family relationship except intimacy. So moving forward, if I recall from DB, any family times I should be present, but otherwise no? What about things like family dinners at her parents? Obviously I attend my Son's birthday party, but what about her family get togethers? Or if She wants to go out for a birthday dinner? I'm just wanting to know what the appropriate DB line to draw here.
Personally I think it's OK to do kid-focused stuff jointly such as birthday parties, but some here would argue that you should not even do that. So that's kind of your call. But I definitely would not go to dinner with her parents, or any other visits with her parents. It's going to seem really awkward cutting out the cake-eating at first, but it needs to be done.
The next big test is GAL this week. I'm dropping all time together after kids go to bed. I'm going out each night to gym or just faking it and smoking in the car. I'm just going to tell her "I'm going out" and that's it.
I wouldn't fake it, and I wouldn't force it. If you don't have something to do then stay home. You shouldn't avoid the home just because she is there, remember that the home is your castle and you shouldn't let her mess that up for you. So sometimes stay, sometimes go. Don't "dump" the kids on her either, you should be sharing with responsibilities in taking care of them. And you don't want them to wonder why you're just disappearing every evening. Sometimes involve them in GAL, maybe you take them to the park to do something, or take them to a movie.
What about SMSs in the daytime? Sometimes there are complaints and things that are not child related. Ignore, reply, or just tell her to not do it any more? I read somewhere that encouraging SMS just keeps me in the friend zone and it should strictly be "business" only.
The rule is sometimes reply right away, sometimes wait a while, and sometimes (if it's not important) don't reply at all. The idea is to portray that you are busy, moving on and not hovering over your phone waiting for her messages.
I'm not dropping any home responsibilities and will either leave after kids in bed or arrange to come home late with permission of course.
Man, family lunches are like twice a month and I'm really close to the inlaws. There has been no formal announcement of BD but they aren't stupid and see we've not been in the same bed for almost a year. Giving that up is going to be way tough and will probably initiate family questions as it will be out of character. I'm the inlaw that is there the most. Will put pressure on W that's for sure.
This evening she wanted to watch TV together (after kids in bed). I declined and stayed in my room practising guitar all evening. No goodnight (she put herself to bed). Would have been awkward as we just came off a great last day of a family trip.
Curious if Steve85 or anyone else have an opinion on family lunches.
Ok, so I've got my head around no visits to inlaws. I still think doing kids things, like school pickups, birthdays, events like soccer still must happen. They need Dad support.
What about when asked to do odd things around the house, like help cook or some other thing I normally don't do?
Still can't get my head around going cold turkey with regards to in-laws.
I still think doing kids things, like school pickups, birthdays, events like soccer still must happen. They need Dad support.
Oh yes, absolutely.
What about when asked to do odd things around the house, like help cook or some other thing I normally don't do?
Honestly it probably doesn't matter one way or the other. Most of us ended up here through death-by-a-thousand-papercuts. We didn't do any one thing terribly wrong, but our wives felt alone and neglected emotionally for months or years and finally broke. There's no one thing that got you here and no one thing that'll get you out of it. For now nothing you do is going to have much impact on her or change her mind. But changed behavior over a long period of time might do that. If you do end up separating then you can get serious about detaching, but while living together it's tough to implement a lot of this stuff. So help her, or don't help her, it's really your choice. But if you do help her then just try to keep in mind it's not going to change anything for now.
Still can't get my head around going cold turkey with regards to in-laws.
Same as above, go or don't go, it's your choice. It's not going to change anything either way. If she leaves then I would definitely use that as an opportunity to cut back on contact and "group" activities though.
I had a last minute meet up with a friend. Did let W know I'm going out but not with whom. I get panic afternoon email that son got mad and hit her (he's six). I ignore. I get SMS about when I'm coming home. I already said, but reply two hours later restating time. I get another SMS about something boring happened to her. I ignore. She asks if I read her email. I ignore and then come home at the time I said.
I get rage about my Son but definately validate her feelings. Sounded traumatic. Then I get the corresponding relationship rage. "Do I know its over?" (I say I know), do you know Ive been waiting 10 years for this (married for 9, go figure, I say nothing), "I must sell the house now!" (she doesn't want to but given i said im not suppoting her she probably realises now it's the only way. I say nothing), "I'm trapped and need to move out!" (she hasn't made the effort. Complains, but no action, I say I understand), "You must feel miserable too!" (i say no, im fine).
I go back to my room and 10 minutes later she calls me to watch tv. I declined yesterday, but today i accept. She's just been browsing apartment listings on her phone, obviously making a statement. Tv show is fine, we have good time.
Night ends with W showing some nice pics of kids taken today. I leave for bed and she asks where I've been. I say out and then good night.
Yeah this is getting real tough. She's starts her period any day and that usually means rage. Indeed she initiated BD in thst frame of mind. Is this form of GAL effective? It's clear she's rattled, I'm not normally out, and certainly not vague. I can't see how totally ghosting her and being holed up in my room is effective. I mean wouldn't completely ignoring her just reinforce her feeling to separate? I don't like the idea of ignoring her birthday. But do I ever do that for friends? No way. I'm torn.
In all honesty I am feeling more detached than ever. I just realised how awesome separation will be. No pessimistic, emotionally abusive wife, a couple nights to myself, and no kids 24/7. I thought I wanted to save the marriage. Now I don't care. Because she won't change and I doubt she'd accept the strings (boundaries) that would be attached to piecing.
I'm not saying I'm defeated. I'd take her back if the topic came up and we agreed to work on it. But I'm not sure how much of her anger I can take. I feel she's upset that I'm stealing her cake. And I do feel a bit dodgy for being evasive. I can only wait and see I guess.
No pessimistic, emotionally abusive wife, a couple nights to myself, and no kids 24/7. I thought I wanted to save the marriage. Now I don't care. Because she won't change and I doubt she'd accept the strings (boundaries) that would be attached to piecing.
Its strange how this just hits you when the rose coloured glasses finally fall off.. I loved my WW, but once i detached, i really started to see how emotionally abusive she was.. Lots of blackmail and rows if i didnt get her own way... Her favourite was "Why did you never listen to me?" - I always listened but refused to back down on stupid irrational decissions - what she really meant was "why did you never let me do x y z"... My WW would never change / accept boundaries either, so it made my decission to walk away easier. Keep it up
In all honesty I am feeling more detached than ever. I just realised how awesome separation will be. No pessimistic, emotionally abusive wife, a couple nights to myself, and no kids 24/7. I thought I wanted to save the marriage. Now I don't care. Because she won't change and I doubt she'd accept the strings (boundaries) that would be attached to piecing.
I think what you mean is... you are willing to R, but you won't go back to the old MR. It has to be a new MR.
The advantages of separation you outline are definitely there. There are also disadvantages - loneliness (at times) for one.
I apologize if you have answered these questions before -- what has your W stated are the goals of separation? Separation is another form of limbo and without clear goals I think it's inevitable that D is not far behind. In my case I am handling the emotional piece of separation as, essentially, a divorce filing. The logistical pieces less so (not getting legal documentation for all our agreements, etc.). We are going to "MC" (essentially a separation counselor) - the first few sessions have been to help sort out the logistics of the separation and learn how to communicate better, but I have made clear that long-term I will only continue to go if we are working on the MR.
I highly suggest you think about what changes you would need to see in your W in order to take her back. Like you I also said for awhile "I would take her back if things changed" but then I had trouble outlining specifically what needed to change. I don't think this needs to be a list of every complaint, but an honest list of "if she checked off every box, I would consider R". You may look at the list and realize it is completely unrealistic for your W to change in that way. If anything, this will be therapeutic. And will also help focus you on your own needs (common NG problem). And will help you think about the qualities you would seek in a future partner. And will help you gauge whether there is any progress during the separation...
Hi Josh, I've been away a few days, so just trying to catch up on your thread. Your sitch is very familiar to me, so I am going to talk extremely straight with you. You've recently had a breakthrough in therapy. I think that's terrific, and I can understand how you would be eager to approach your MR with a better sense of the man you should have been all along. Sadly, your W feels the results of your nice guy syndrome. After ten years, she has a lot of anger. I'm not sure if you really understand what it does to a woman who does not have her emotional needs met by her H, but it usually turns her into an unattractive person........unless she happens to be exceptional. Even if there are no personality disorder or some other mental issue, just being a W with a somewhat strong personality can cause a bad dynamic when she has a H with NGS.
She has a lot of anger b/c she feels you neglected her
emotional intimacy needs. Now, maybe some guys automatically assume when the word "intimate" is used it means "sexually", but that's not always the case. Being the complex creature that she is, it has more to do with how you make love to her by communicating how she is valued, special, feminine, sexy, smart, beautiful, loved, etc. It is, also, you communicating how she makes
you feel like a confident man, fulfills you sexually, inspires you, etc. These are expressions that make women feel great, and I would think it makes the man feel pretty good, as well. This is another way of making love, and I think every spouse has certain emotional needs they want their mate to fill. A lot of men simply don't know how to express these things, or don't understand how important it is to a woman for her H to communicate these messages in a loving, intimate manner. Maybe she never told you what she needed. Whatever her emotional needs were, she felt they were neglected for a long time, so now........she's fed up and feels done. Let me add something else. It's natural for a wife to look to her H to fill these needs, just as it is for him to want her to fill his EN. The trick is to learn what she needs. If she won't tell you, then you have to try different things, and watch her response.
It's unfortunate that the two of you are currently in different emotional time zones. Just as you feel "reborn", she feels like she's
dead. You want to show her affection, but she is not in the same time zone. The harder you try to show her how much you love her and want to make up for lost time.......the more you'll push her away. So, you will have to deal with things in different approach than you might have originally thought.
Living under the same roof in an "in-house separation" is extremely challenging. IMHO, the spouses don't have clear house rules and don't understand their roles in this arrangement. The spouse who wanted the separation wants to play family when it's convenient or when it means going on vacation, sharing holidays or other special events. However, that spouse wants certain freedom, and if their mate gets too close then they scream
foul. Did you & your W discuss any time limit for this separation? Will the two of you be seeking any type of guidance or assistance to help reconcile the MR? Were there any ground rules discussed? I gather that not much has been determined, since there was a family vacation, and you aren't sure where you'll be sleeping. Here's the problem. You are really separated, so you don't know what to do from day to day activities. She's basically not sleeping with you, while still benefiting from being M to you, right?
I'm still not at the point where I can confidentially bust up my family by walking away (She already tried to manipulate me to do that, and I stood my ground). She has so many other great attributes like bringing joy to life in a way I can't. I could almost accept her silly tricks if I knew she was putting in an effort to change. I know can't make her change, but she has noticed my transformation. I can see she backs off on some of her toxic behaviour even though she won't admit it.
By "silly tricks" are you saying she is very manipulative? If that's true, then it will require a lot of toughness from you, if you intend to stay in a MR with her. Standing up to her, instead of cowing down and submitting to a bullying W, will likely earn her respect. Calling her out of her b.s., sh't behavior, trying to treat you like cr@p........is a must, if you want to see change in her. I don't know her, or the personal issues she may have, but I think a lot of unattractive behavior comes when the W feels the H is not being the man (leader, protector, provider, parent, etc.) he needs to be and she has to step up to get the "job" done. This causes huge resentment and disrespect in her. Once her disrespect for you as a man is gone, then she doesn't feel the loving emotions for you. Getting the respect back, is your starting point. Being consistent is key.
Deep down I know an anxious person is not for me and ultimately if she doesn't change I must leave.
Why wouldn't she feel anxious, if you always avoided things? If you would not confront certain matters, or didn't discuss relationship issues, or concerns she might have had........then why wouldn't she feel uncertain, worried, and anxious?
For sure my reactions only expounded her anxiety but I wouldn't say I created it. She has a few times admitted she is an anxious person.
Yes, she has been planning her exit. She told me as such. And about 4 years ago she started to say she will after any argument. A warning sign in hindsight but she always talks in extremes so I just ignored.
Yes, I've read about validation, and this is something I started doing about 8 months ago as part of my transformation. Not something I've done before since, well, I felt scared to speak up.
Yes, she picks fights, but less so since separation. But when she does pick a fight I spend a LOT of enegry to not be dragged down, to stay distant, and to stick to the situation. She loses steam and then typically ends the flight with "I just can't live with you".
Has it ever occurred to you that she might be doing this to see if you would speak up (stand up) to her? When a H acts like nothing the W says to him can prompt any action, she will speak in extremes and threaten.......just to see if it will pull him out of that distant, weak, closed lip, subdued behavior. Do you understand how unattractive that type of behavior in a male is to a woman? Women want their H's to be stronger than they are! Therefore, she's going to test you to see if you really are stronger than she. And, stonewalling her is not the type of reaction (or lack there of) she wanted to see in the man who was suppose to be in charge of her family. If she bullies you, it is b/c you allowed it. That's true anywhere you go. The schoolyard, the workplace, within families, or intimate relationships.
One a week ago was where my daughter came to me upset that wife wouldn't stop pushing her on a swing even when my daughter said stop. I just causually told my wife that the daughter was upset that you didn't stop when she said stop. Oh boy. A 30 minute tirade of excuses, complaints about the daughter, sarcasm, and blaming my daughter for "playing me".
Then I would suspect there was much more at a deeper level than just the fact your daughter reported her mother to you. Maybe she's right. Mothers can usually see when their little girls "play" their father, even though the father can't. I've seen it happen many times, just like sons can play their moms. But aside from that, I'd guess your W didn't feel supported, and not just this time but in general. That's another one of those EN.
I will continue in next post.
Sandy can you kindly explain what goes through a woman's mind when they want to play family with their H in Social Circles with all of their friends. And family with H? The only thing I see about it being that friend zone is they only do it for the sake of co-parenting. I really don't see any respect their for the H. Like he's good enough to take out on social occasions, just not all of them, because the WAW/WW wants their freedom and Independence to do their own thing in life without any control or oversight, which may include sleeping with other men and looking for love in all the wrong places. I just still don't get it? If they are totally done why are they keeping the H around as a friend other than for the sake of the kids and being plan b if their break for freedom fails? I just don't get it? My WAW does this a lot. It doesn't matter now we've decided on divorce in my sich but? Other than child-related co-parenting family occasions. I just don't get it I can't wrap my head around it. What is the benefit to them? It's like we're good enough to go out to social occasions together, go out for ice cream and go see family members which I put a stop to a while back, but I am going to partake in my son's 2nd birthday, and not do anything separate. I can't understand is that they call us scary and controlling and manipulative and they hate us and don't want to be around us and they want their space from us, they undermine our parenting abilities, constant disrespect, and on the other same hand within the same moment they say we are awesome parents. They don't want to spend any time with us they constantly ignore us and they use us just for the logistics. but then they want to keep us around for social occasions. No self-respecting man should even entertain this BS. On the other hand what if it is some form of connection or a social demonstration for a 180? Why do they want us there?
Sandi,
All you say is true. It's hard to know if her anxiety was always there, I created it, or, as I suspect, I brought out what was already there. Indeed, I vividly recall the moment 10 years ago when I avoided the first big issue of her boundary violation. I never stood up, and the issues started then. Because of NCS, I resented her even though I didn't know it. And I just went on passively through life, avoiding sex, doing what she said, and building the foundation for resentment that she has now. I'm very aware of how I did this and how my emotional neglect messed up every prior relationship in pretty much the same way.
I also know what kind of woman I seem to attract and, unfortunately, I doubt the changes I need from W would be accepted for a new MR. I'm not being negative, for sure if there was reconciliation a positive feedback loop could occur. She could change enough when accepting my changes as she has grudgingly admitted three months ago I've changed and am the H she wants. But right now I could go either way and I'm fine with that.
My POV on separation is that she initiated it, she needs to define what the boundaries are. Six months in separation we almost reconnected. She admitted it didn't feel like a separation. It got to the point where I was mentioning sex a lot and wanted to initiate. She was warming up (In hindsight I pursued too much I have to say). Eventually we tried. And she stopped midway to say she couldn't do it. She apologised, dressed up, and that was the start of a colder W leading to where I am now.
I'm DBing since then. All pursuit has ceased. And yeah, shes uncomfortable because she hasn't fully articulated her separation boundaries. But at the same time, she complains about how aweful living with me is and blows up. But t hasn't actually moved out. So when she's calm, it's like 80% of how when we were married. In other words, she has bren all talk so far. I believe she is capable of moving out. Maybe she's waiting on property settlement to secure her future. Which I'm stalling on. I don't know. Her separation, her move.
Right now I'm DBing and its effing hard. It feels aweful to know I'm creating short term negativity by delaying sms responses, or disappearing after dinner without chatting. It's so 180 from who I was. And I admit the space I love. I remind myself if it doesn't work to try something different. But you know what? Before BD she would sometimes do the same. Isolate herself. In any event I'm at peace in a way like never before and she is depressed and upset like never before. And that's OK for now.
I've been waiting for your valuable insights Sandi, thank you.
IHCLACS,
Yup same sitch as me. I think Sandi discussed this on a post way back. WAW is selfish. So she eats her cake. My W cares about what people think (myself included, she worries I'll hate her post D). She wants both freedom and comfort from H. Best of both worlds.
In my case she needs me to co-parent. She wears wedding ring at work, worried what they might think. She needs someone to vent to when her gay friend isn't available. I'm her comfort blanket when needed because Mr. Nice guy is always there. The great thing about being in the friend zone I guess. Not any more actually, poor W, I can imagine the pain and anger she feels.
Today I hope my W realised there will be messed up times with theckids and I'm not available. That I'm not there to share a laugh or to hear her complaints. And I know she can't stand not knowing where I go. I worry I only feed her anxiety further. But I'm no longer her H, not my role any more.
It feels like we are married sans anything physical. I'm on a family holiday and we've been sharing a bed. First time in 9 months.
What!? I'm confused. So, the only way you're really separated is sexually?
W has been dropping little barbs like I snore too much, forgot how that ruined my life. My POV is she never set the boundary. No touching in bed, nice chats, all good. Well today at dinner she said she hates it, I have to sleep on the couch, it's been stressing me this trip, thats why im eating lots of chocolate. Oh and we are friends and "I'm single". She's mentioned the friend thing before, but first time she said single. She also reminded me (again) she wants to move out with kids.
And again, she's trying to get you to stand up to her. What did you say? What did you do, beside eat chocolate?
I'm detached outside (but hurting inside).
But isn't that the picture you've always given? You are hurt inside, but God forbid you say or do anything that might go against something she says. You just do whatever she dictates. Hasn't your pattern been to crawl in your shell and say nothing back? I think she's seen you emotionally detached for most of your M, and that's one of the problems. She has felt your detachment for ten years.
I'm really going up and down in emotions because I don't think I've fully detached. I feel removing my wedding ring (she did so months ago) might be a symbolic effort to show detachment.
What is your goal.......to save the M or show her how detached you are? I don't think you should make some symbolic show of detachment.
Josh, don't confuse detachment to mean you act cold or angry.
I'm not sure if W is really suitable for who I now am becoming. IC warned me of this. I really feel now that unless she can make enough changes (so far minimal) my needs need to be filled elsewhere. In otherwords she can't satisfy what I now need in a relationship. And I see her thinking about my boundaries too.
So, do you want to be married to her, or married to a better version of her? The two of you may not be suitable for each other, after ten years of an unhappy MR. I'm still reading through your thread, and maybe I'll find something that changes my opinion, but right now I think your new found self could be overshadowed by something a little less admirable if you aren't careful and stay self aware. She may be Jezebel incarnated for all I know, but I don't think you can leave this MR pointing all fingers at her for its demise. You can call her anxious or whatever, but until I read more, she sounds like a woman who did not get the emotional support she needed.
It's hard to know if her anxiety was always there, I created it, or, as I suspect, I brought out what was already there.
Conditions can develop in relationships. Couples usually feed off each other. If one is negative, has had emotional difficulties or needs certain emotional support from the other spouse......it can go south in a MR if the other spouse doesn't know exactly what to do (and that's not counting big problems that crop up). Obviously, all of us here experienced a MR that was lacking some tools needed. Some were able to find out what to do in time to save the M, and some didn't. And, it's not that DB didn't work, but that it was too late by the time the newcomer arrived to get the information.
Indeed, I vividly recall the moment 10 years ago when I avoided the first big issue of her boundary violation.
Can you explain?
I'm very aware of how I did this and how my emotional neglect messed up every prior relationship in pretty much the same way.
Although it's sad, be glad that you can see and are on track to change the future.
I doubt the changes I need from W would be accepted for a new MR.
What do you mean?
I'm not being negative, for sure if there was reconciliation a positive feedback loop could occur. She could change enough when accepting my changes as she has grudgingly admitted three months ago I've changed and am the H she wants. But right now I could go either way and I'm fine with that.
When someone goes through a major transformation, they see they can no longer settle for what they took in the past. In other words, if you know you can no longer live with the woman your W has become, then you need to know within yourself what you want in a relationship/wife. Perhaps one day this subject can be discussed between you & W. Right now, neither of you seem too sure of wanting one another. I agree that both of you need to change. It's hard and takes a lot of work......and a lot of "want to".
People change in a MR. Sometimes it's for the better and sometimes it's not. ((hugs))
Sandy can you kindly explain what goes through a woman's mind when they want to play family with their H in Social Circles with all of their friends. And family with H? The only thing I see about it being that friend zone is they only do it for the sake of co-parenting. I really don't see any respect their for the H.
No, it isn't out of any respect she feels for the H. IMHO, she wants to play family in social circles kind of like saving face, but not exactly. She uses the H more as an escort than anything else. She doesn't want to show up to public events alone, or have people asking uncomfortable questions. As for playing family with H, I think it comes under the heading of cake eating. She benefits from both worlds, so to speak. I never desired to play house with my H, but
endured it when around other people, b/c I knew they expected to see us together at certain events.
Like he's good enough to take out on social occasions, just not all of them, because the WAW/WW wants their freedom and Independence to do their own thing in life without any control or oversight, which may include sleeping with other men and looking for love in all the wrong places. I just still don't get it? If they are totally done why are they keeping the H around as a friend other than for the sake of the kids and being plan b if their break for freedom fails? I just don't get it?
You don't get it b/c you are trying to apply logic to that which is illogical. ((hugs)) It has nothing to do with the H being good enough to take some places and not all of them. It's all about her and what she wants/feels at any given moment. If she has a better offer, she'll turn H down and go with the other offer. It's her selfishness and arrogance. Yes, she wants to play family when it suits her and is convenient for her, and only then. Her freedom is priority in most cases. I don't even think she is looking for love in all the wrong places, to be quite honest. For some who have gone wild, it's just about spreading their wings and sowing their wild oats (even if they are somewhat late in the game). They are like rebellious teenagers who are determined to do everything they've been told is inappropriate, bad or wrong.
Why are they keeping H around as a friend? That's a good question and I wish I had a good answer. I think she wants to play friends in order to use him. She'll take advantage and use him for whatever she may need at the time. Bottom line is her ego, and I think she wants to believe the H can't love anyone the way he loves her. She wants to believe he is sitting home alone, pining away for her. I don't believe it is for the sake of the kids, whatsoever. She isn't going to do what's best for the kids! Don't forget, it's all about
her and how she benefits emotionally, financially, or physically. That's not to say she is smart about it, but that's how she views everything. For example, her H may be able to give her more financially, but he doesn't give her what she desires emotionally, so she goes with the dud (OM) who feeds her ego. Even if she likes to sleep with Joe Blow, she will try to keep her H as her backup plan.....until she knows for certain Joe Blow will follow through. By that, I mean if everything falls through and nothing works out like she thought, then she'll always have ole hubby who will take care of her. In her head, she thinks he would be grateful to get her back! That's why I feel that dropping the rope and moving forward is the right way for the H to go. It has a shock value to it when she sees that he isn't going to stop living just b/c she wants a D. However, I think he really has to stop the
friends act, and after the D he can be friend-
ly in his interactions, but not real
friends. Know what I mean? Why would you want to be friends with someone who divorced you? I could find better people to have for a BFF!
I just don't get it I can't wrap my head around it. What is the benefit to them? It's like we're good enough to go out to social occasions together, go out for ice cream and go see family members which I put a stop to a while back, but I am going to partake in my son's 2nd birthday, and not do anything separate.
She wants to keep attending the family events, holiday activities, traditional festivities, etc. See, reality has not dawned on her yet. She wants to keep one foot in and one foot out. Some women may miss parts of the family stuff, like going for ice cream or celebrating son's birthday.........and I've read where some WW even want to continue physical affection, but they want to go through with the S/D.
You can figure out crazy! I go back to the selfishness and the fantasy. It shows how far removed from reality she is.
I can't understand is that they call us scary and controlling and manipulative and they hate us and don't want to be around us and they want their space from us, they undermine our parenting abilities, constant disrespect, and on the other same hand within the same moment they say we are awesome parents. They don't want to spend any time with us they constantly ignore us and they use us just for the logistics. but then they want to keep us around for social occasions. No self-respecting man should even entertain this BS. On the other hand what if it is some form of connection or a social demonstration for a 180? Why do they want us there?
It depends on what you mean by making a connection. She wants to make a connection when she sleeps with another guy, too. She could show up on your doorstep late some night, crying and wanting you to take her back. By morning, she's ready to split again. I want you to listen very carefully to me, b/c I have read your question from a lot of other LBH's........"What if she is trying to make a connection?" It does not matter if she wants some type of connection, b/c that is the theme of this entire post from you. Don't you see it? She doesn't want to give up her position and/or connection she has with you, the family, relatives, etc........but she wants it on her terms. Now, when she stops trying to manipulate, lie & deceive, act like GGW, and all the other disrespectful behaviors, and she genuinely shows that she wants to do whatever is necessary to make her M work.......THEN you can think about the possibility of her being serious. But there are ways she needs to show she means it, and one way is by demonstrating respect for her H and being willing to do what he says he needs to heal & reconcile. Do you know how many H's have taken back their WW too quickly and too easily, only to experience the same ordeal over again? In fact, I think it was my second thread on my WW series I wrote on this very subject....in case you want to check it out.
If you trust anything I say, I hope you take this to heart. Reconciliation with a WW, should cover a considerable amount of time and a ton of work. She should be required to meet several realistic qualifications set by the H. If he takes her back on face value, then he's probably in for more pain.
There have some WW's who really changed from the heart outward in a positive and loving way. It's hard, I'm not going to lie. She has to undergo an emotional heart operation, if she really does it right.
The WW that does not learn life lessons from her experience, and is not willing to find the information & guidance they need to change and to save their M, is not a W you need to consider taking back.
((hugs))
Hi Sandi,
Let me clarify: We've been in separate beds for 9 months. On a pre-planned vacation we were in the same bed for 2 nights. She was uncomfortable and said it felt like backwards steps. I was going out for the evening and agreed on the couch for that night. The next night I stayed in the bed. She asked if I was going to the couch. I said no, I'm staying in bed because you are the one who has the problem of being in the same bed. She said when are you going to tell me this. I said right now. Ten minutes later, I presume because she was rattled, she came back and asked about dividing up property. I said it really isn't the right time. She was upset about a previous conversation where I asked her how will she afford to be in an apartment without a job? Well I said I asked her that because I'm not supporting her. She was in a panic. "Are you going to support me? Should I be nervous about anything?". I just said no, but all options are on the table.
So to summarise, when she announced that "she is single", I didn't say anything other then "OK, I can understand that is how you feel". Just validation.
But now I'm really confused about DB. So yeah, I've been detached for a long period of time in the marriage. Not standing up, keeping conflict away. But that is not what I'm doing now. I'm still emotionally detached, but now I'm validating and setting boundaries when they are crossed. So the difference is there is validation now and boundary setting. I'm not angry and never escalated any argument. She is the one angry ATM. I just validate and avoid R talk. Cold? We laugh at times, we have good convos between her angry outbursts. It genuinely feels at times like we are married. I don't talk about deep things, but then I never did. I don't reach out for emotional support. When she does I just validate. Given that I've been emotionally blunted is that the appropriate response now? Maybe I need to be more emotionally involved? Be more vulnerable?
In terms of what I want: Originally to keep the M. But the more I go down this DB hole the more I'm not so sure. I would like to still keep the M, but with strings attached (e.g. we go to counselling, I agree to be more emotionally connected, she agrees to work on less emotional abusive behaviour). I believe this is achievable as I've seen the positive feedback loop. She already has dialed down the abusive behaviour and even once apologised, something I've never seen in 10 years. But then if she won't change I'm not sure if that would be enough for me. Confused? Yeah for sure! I'm aware I played a BIG part in the demise of M. And for all purposes her behaviour is a direct reflection of that and not her true self. But since it started so early, I'm not so sure.
So consider my answer on the fence, I'm more comfortable for it to go either way. I kept my wedding ring on for so long as I felt hope. I just removed it last week after she was very clear that "I'm single". I felt, OK. That's clear. I'm really fired as H. Why keep the ring?
To clarify, the defining moment of going downhill was when we first moved in. She wanted something in a particular closet. I disagreed. She went off. I tried to explain but all I got was justification on why she was right. This pattern continued on until I felt I didn't want to argue. Happened so much with the birth of our first baby. If I didn't heat the bottle exactly right I got criticised. I just fell back into my CEN behaviour which is to say nothing, avoid conflict, build resentment. And the sex started to fall away, further generating complaints. As a Mr. Nice Guy I felt it extremely difficult to initiate sex in this situation. And she mostly didn't either as she considered it begging). But she was happy to complain that it wasn't her job to initiate.
In any event, I accept that I might be way to late to the DB party. And I accept there might be nothing I can do to save M. GAL has really made a difference to boost my mood.
She asked if I was going to the couch. I said no, I'm staying in bed because you are the one who has the problem of being in the same bed. She said when are you going to tell me this. I said right now. Ten minutes later, I presume because she was rattled, she came back and asked about dividing up property. I said it really isn't the right time.
You handled that situation correctly. Whenever you say these type things to her, say it in a way she knows you mean it, and don't be snide about it. She has threatened and bluffed about leaving for so long, now you are forcing her to show
She was upset about a previous conversation where I asked her how will she afford to be in an apartment without a job? Well I said I asked her that because I'm not supporting her. She was in a panic. "Are you going to support me? Should I be nervous about anything?". I just said no, but all options are on the table.
her cards and it rattles her.
The more reality that is thrown at her, the better. She fantasizes about living in a nice apartment with all her new freedom, and you picking up the tab. And she doesn't even work? Yeah, she needs to know you will not be supporting her. Before you say too much, check it out with a lawyer to see where you stand and what you would have to do financially should she D you.
But now I'm really confused about DB. So yeah, I've been detached for a long period of time in the marriage. Not standing up, keeping conflict away. But that is not what I'm doing now. I'm still emotionally detached, but now I'm validating and setting boundaries when they are crossed. So the difference is there is validation now and boundary setting. I'm not angry and never escalated any argument. She is the one angry ATM. I just validate and avoid R talk. Cold? We laugh at times, we have good convos between her angry outbursts. It genuinely feels at times like we are married. I don't talk about deep things, but then I never did. I don't reach out for emotional support. When she does I just validate. Given that I've been emotionally blunted is that the appropriate response now? Maybe I need to be more emotionally involved? Be more vulnerable?
I think detaching is the most misunderstood part in DBing. It is talked much more on the board than in the book. DBing detachment doesn't mean you don't stand up for yourself. It does not mean you necessarily avoid conflict, b/c you don't shy away it. But if she's just a drama queen, then you don't get emotionally involved in all of that stuff. But if she comes at you angrily, then you stand your ground and deal with the issue like a strong, confident man who is not afraid to stand up to her nose to nose. Don't argue, just state whatever you need to say and be done with it if she won't shut up. But don't crawl in a shell and roll up in a ball. She needs to see a man who has found his b@lls, and is not afraid to put her in her place. Sometimes, that's what you have to do in order for her to shut up and listen. I'm not advocating anything physical. I think a man can say things in an authoritative voice, and most women will calm down. Sometimes he can speak in a soft voice, but look straight into her eyes, and she knows he means business. You are the man of the house, so put your rightful pants on.
Now, if she is off her rocker, then nothing is going to work, except treatment. However, if you have seen her respond positively to some things already, then I think she wants to see masculine leadership, strength, confidence, etc. in you. I think she threatens about leaving, b/c it's all she has to hold over your head. She has not job, so she is totally dependent on you for her welfare. I don't know how you manage the finances, or if there has been any problems, but that can cause a lot of anxiousness for the one dependent on you. The most important thing to remember (if she truly is a bully) is show no fear. If she wants to leave, then fine, but she doesn't get to get up in your face screaming & threatening.
I think she went for years needing a lot of validation, reassurance, and emotional intimacy. When she didn't get it, she turned on you in an aggressive manner, and you retreated. She lost respect for you, and that kills her attraction and feeling in love. So, as I said previously, you have to get her respect for you, first. You do that by being the
man in the home, in the relationship, dealing with the kids, business, whatever area of life.
I did not mean to confuse you when I asked you if you were showing the same picture she had seen in you the past ten years. If you tend to get caught up in her drama, then of course you need to detach from it. However, it doesn't mean to craw up in a shell, either. It doesn't mean you snub her, treat her badly, cold, or act as if you are mad all the time. I'm going to copy & paste a short version of DBing Detaching.
I'm not sure how she treats you. You've said she was anxious, and I think you said she emotionally bullied you or were manipulative. Can you tell me more about this?
If she is an emotional abuser and you don't want to deal with it anymore, then pull all the way back and have nothing to do with her. I don't think it will resolve the MR, nor do I think she'll change, without her getting professional therapy. I am not sure where you stand with the M, if you want in or out. If you want in.....based on her changing, then I think how you approach her needs to be in such a way that it sends that message to her......that you are not going to tolerate bad behavior anymore.
Another key is to show consistency. In other words, know within yourself where you stand, and reflect that message to her through the methods you use in approach and response.
You mentioned she had an EA at one time. Did you learn much about this EA, and did you confront her about it? How did it end?
Definition of Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)
I. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.
When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.
When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love (known as to lovingly detach*), we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flip-side, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.
It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.
We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).
We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)
PART II Detachment (found around here)
Detachment is the:
* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.
* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.
* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.
* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my duty/job to do so.
* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.
* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.
* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanding or controlling.
* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).
* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.
* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
* Ability to allow S to be who he/she really is rather than who I want him/her to be.
IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -
We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.
All, I can't tell you how much your advice means to me. I've learnt as much here on DB and reading Mr. Nice Guy as a year of IC. My IC wraps up (I'm told no longer needed) and this fourm has just been great.
I feel I have taken DB a bit too far and I think Sandi you eluded to that. Today I've opened up a bit more with W. We had a nice evening of fun with kids, TV together, a few good laughs, and chats about all sorts of things other than R.
Man up indeed, and I've seen the small changes in response. Even today asking for my opinion on something as mundane as what take away dinner for a family birthday. The thing is I normally would hold back my opinion and claim whatever, I'm easy. Instead that jerk isn't there and I've been more assertive. I think being too vague about GAL is not good for the anxious. But yeah, smashing post D fantasies and not reacting to emotinal bursts has been good detachment.
Emotional abuse. I don't use the term lightly and I'll provide some examples.
Relationship Scorecard: Always bringing up the past to hurt or to guilt, usually in a barrage of multiple complaints. I end up feeling ashamed (Nice Guy shame), guilty, or profess I'll do better. A no win scenario for me because there is always something that could be brought up. In highly emotive states, especially during her period, my sins have bordered on the ludicrous. Once I was even accused of not laughing. Not sure why I should be laughing during her complaining monologues (Maybe I should). In fact there actually was a hilarious moment in one where I did almost laugh. She complained I was too hairy "down there" which made sex "ALWAYS repulsive" . I validated and then stated it bothered me too so I now I shave. The shock on her face: priceless. Last time this sort of outburst happened I cooly responded but never got angry. Now I didn't know about boundaries then so I didn't assert a consequence.
Inability to handle criticism, even if "trivial". Rections are either reflecting back to me things I do wrong, justification for her actions, or just plain "why are you mean to me?". Usually escalates into other issues if not checked. Can escalate into literal stares of hatred which is truely confronting.
Interfering when not asked and if rebuffed, will respond as if critisized. Example might be cooking (and she is better). If i rebuke her unwanted help it can burst into comments like "I've cooked longer, I'm better than you, ill just do it". Once I asked to just let me fail, but the point was lost on her. Now if it ever happens again, ill validate and just state i need to learn my way.
Relationship Hostage: before BD, arguments can escalate to "i don't feel close you", "I can't be with someone who is mean to me", "I will leave when the kids are older"
Blaming Others for her Emotions: "You make me angry", "You make me eat carbs because I'm stressed". Worst part is that this has been directed to the kids and I never stepped in. To her credit, she caught herself doing this the other day so she's learning. Which I say is because of me since I've directly told her many times that her emotional reactions are her choice only.
Some of these have improved since I've been setting boundaries. The one thing i dont know is if she's aware of her reaction to critism. I'm not willing to test that now and have held back any critism for months in order to ensure no angry reactions or risk any chance of her feeling that nothing changes.
Hope this clarifies what I mean. There is one other thing but I don't think it's toxic and that is she sees the negative side of past events. I see that as just a normal reaction to her current state of mind. I do try to point out the positive when that sort of reflecting comes up ...
I also have to say that dealing with these toxic behaviours would form an R condition if there will ever be any talk of piecing.
I love reading this board as i then realise i'm not alone in the rubbish that the WW throw our way...
In your case Josh, the Relationship Scorecard, not handling critisism, interfering etc.. Ive had all of this, and the same scenarious ( plus many more )
I actually listed a lot of this stuff as points for improvement during my first MC session. From that the counciler brought up ( not in the session, but on a call before another MC session ) that the WW may have a cluster b disorder - ( BPD or Vunerable narsasism ) ...
Some of these have improved since I've been setting boundaries. The one thing i dont know is if she's aware of her reaction to critism. I'm not willing to test that now and have held back any critism for months in order to ensure no angry reactions or risk any chance of her feeling that nothing changes.
My WW actually told me once to never ever critisise her, as she will never forget it...
I read on a post somewhere that many a LBS assumes his WW is BPD or has vunerable narsasism..
One things for sure, your WW shows a lot of the traits mine had.. maybe she ticks other BPD boxes ?
Forgot to mention EA. She wanted to travel by herself post BD. I said yes and foolishly took time off to take care of kids. I wish I set that boundary but I didn't know you all here then. Anyway.
She came back and I was still hoping we could reconcile. In one of her angry monologues she said she didn't love me amd she was in love with someone she met overseas. I knew something was up because since she got home it was always after dinner she'd retreat to her bedroom. I actually said that is pretty normal and when in a stressful relationship, we naturally can look elsewhere. I even stated I was contemplating looking up an old friend with benefits. She didn't expect that reply. Her monologue continued in that she was feeling pressure with our R and pressure from OM for her to visit him. W is a smart girl but sometimes her fantasies are just dumb. Move overseas? Leave kids? WTF? How could this possibly work? A few days later the retreat to the bedroom stopped. It's possible it's still going on and it's possible she is just more discreet. Based on current state of mind, my gut says no. But who knows.
At the end of this outburst she said she loved me and we cried together.
All, I can't tell you how much your advice means to me. I've learnt as much here on DB and reading Mr. Nice Guy as a year of IC. My IC wraps up (I'm told no longer needed) and this fourm has just been great.
I feel I have taken DB a bit too far and I think Sandi you eluded to that. Today I've opened up a bit more with W. We had a nice evening of fun with kids, TV together, a few good laughs, and chats about all sorts of things other than R.
Man up indeed, and I've seen the small changes in response. Even today asking for my opinion on something as mundane as what take away dinner for a family birthday. The thing is I normally would hold back my opinion and claim whatever, I'm easy. Instead that jerk isn't there and I've been more assertive. I think being too vague about GAL is not good for the anxious. But yeah, smashing post D fantasies and not reacting to emotinal bursts has been good detachment.
Emotional abuse. I don't use the term lightly and I'll provide some examples.
Relationship Scorecard: Always bringing up the past to hurt or to guilt, usually in a barrage of multiple complaints. I end up feeling ashamed (Nice Guy shame), guilty, or profess I'll do better. A no win scenario for me because there is always something that could be brought up. In highly emotive states, especially during her period, my sins have bordered on the ludicrous. Once I was even accused of not laughing. Not sure why I should be laughing during her complaining monologues (Maybe I should). In fact there actually was a hilarious moment in one where I did almost laugh. She complained I was too hairy "down there" which made sex "ALWAYS repulsive" . I validated and then stated it bothered me too so I now I shave. The shock on her face: priceless. Last time this sort of outburst happened I cooly responded but never got angry. Now I didn't know about boundaries then so I didn't assert a consequence.
Inability to handle criticism, even if "trivial". Rections are either reflecting back to me things I do wrong, justification for her actions, or just plain "why are you mean to me?". Usually escalates into other issues if not checked. Can escalate into literal stares of hatred which is truely confronting.
Interfering when not asked and if rebuffed, will respond as if critisized. Example might be cooking (and she is better). If i rebuke her unwanted help it can burst into comments like "I've cooked longer, I'm better than you, ill just do it". Once I asked to just let me fail, but the point was lost on her. Now if it ever happens again, ill validate and just state i need to learn my way.
Relationship Hostage: before BD, arguments can escalate to "i don't feel close you", "I can't be with someone who is mean to me", "I will leave when the kids are older"
Blaming Others for her Emotions: "You make me angry", "You make me eat carbs because I'm stressed". Worst part is that this has been directed to the kids and I never stepped in. To her credit, she caught herself doing this the other day so she's learning. Which I say is because of me since I've directly told her many times that her emotional reactions are her choice only.
Some of these have improved since I've been setting boundaries. The one thing i dont know is if she's aware of her reaction to critism. I'm not willing to test that now and have held back any critism for months in order to ensure no angry reactions or risk any chance of her feeling that nothing changes.
Hope this clarifies what I mean. There is one other thing but I don't think it's toxic and that is she sees the negative side of past events. I see that as just a normal reaction to her current state of mind. I do try to point out the positive when that sort of reflecting comes up ...
I also have to say that dealing with these toxic behaviours would form an R condition if there will ever be any talk of piecing.
I am not sure I agree with the Emotional Abuse tag for these things. To me emotional abuse has intent behind it. Gas-lighting is a perfect example of this. It is awfully hard to gaslight someone without actually setting out to gaslight them.
A lot of what you describe is someone that has issues trying to deal with those issues in unhealthy ways. It doesn't make her a bad person. It makes her a flawed person.
Emotional baggage is a better label. Or emotional immaturity. Or even emotional damage. I know my W has dealt with all three of those due to her childhood. I never felt she was emotionally abusive (IE she wasn't doing it on purpose).
Anyway, I think emotional abuse is greatly over used, especially when dealing with some one with emotional issues just trying to protect themselves.
One things for sure, your WW shows a lot of the traits mine had.. maybe she ticks other BPD boxes ?
BPD was brought up by someone else on this thread. She has over half of the traits so yeah maybe... Narcissism is definately her forte too.
Control, shame, blaming others, and threats are all abuse in my books.
Control, shame, blaming others, and threats are all abuse in my books.
Agreeing to disagree!
Josh - I struggle to organize my posts because I have so many thoughts running around, but here goes:
The topic of labeling words and actions as Emotional Abuse, or classifying people as BPD or NPD, strikes a nerve with me.
For us NG's, I think this is a trap. Obviously there is real Emotional Abuse, and your W does sound extreme in some cases where maybe it qualifies. But....... NG's allow this to happen. And to some of Sandi's points, NG's actually cause this to happen (and a NG will react to this accusation with extreme defensiveness). A classic NG will say "I am innocent, I was just going along, pleasing my W" when in actuality we are DRIVING our W's to behave in this way. Especially when it comes to control. I know my W is by nature kinda controlling - I also completely played into it by allowing her to become more controlling over the years, by ceding control, by not being a man when I needed to be.
My W works in the mental health field. The tendency to label (or diagnose) words, actions, and people drives me absolutely nuts. I think it can be useful as a starting point to understand someone else better, or learn healthier strategies for interacting with that person, but it can lead down a dark hole. "So-and-so is such a narcissist" etc. I strongly resist labeling, it is only useful to point you towards resources (books, articles, podcasts, etc.) to help learn more. And one should always have a healthy skepticism - once you pick up a book on Emotional Abuse, you will immediately start identifying with every single little detail, but if you step back you will be able to differentiate what is truly abusive, and what is more "normal" relationship conflict.
I have been accused of Emotional Abuse (and worse). I have bought books on Emotional Abuse, from both perspectives. I bought "Should you leave him?" books from the abused female's perspective. One of these books had different chapters for the Abused, the Abuser, and the Mutually Abusive Relationship. Guess what?! You could match the behaviors in my MR to all 3 cases! Or none of them! I could be abused, the abuser, or we could both be abusing the heck out of each other! It's all a matter of degrees. If there is a 15-item questionnaire "Is your relationship Emotionally Abusive?" I guarantee you that every single relationship will tick off some of those boxes. And the more I read these books, the more I realized we are both engaging in many of these behaviors, neither of us in a way that really qualifies us as abusers, and real change would require both of us to change. I've never called my W a bad name, I've never hit her, I've never intentionally gaslighted. The more I read about Emotional Abuse, the more confused I get, the more gaslit I feel, because it has so much gray area.
To Steve's point, a lot of this behavior qualifies as emotional immaturity, baggage or damage. In extreme cases, it is definitely abuse. In the same way, many people exhibit traits of BPD or NPD, but few actually meet the criteria. And whether or not they meet the criteria, it doesn't really change that much how to interact with them. And just because someone has a label or does not, they both can change. The "5 out of 9" criteria in the DSM or whatever they have changed it to doesn't matter - BPD/NPD is an extremely controversial diagnosis precisely because it is so confusing and so many people exhibit some traits but not all, or a mix of several things, and yada yada... my point is all you should care about is what does your W's emotional immaturity mean to you?
Validation and detachment, for example: This is EXACTLY what you are supposed to do interacting with a BPD or NPD. It's also a good way to distance yourself from a WAS, or anybody who is emotionally erratic, or someone you are emotionally tethered to in an unhealthy way. So in some ways learning how to interact with a BPD/NPD is similar to how to interact with a WAW, but that does not necessarily mean the WAW is diagnosable. And again... I think it doesn't really matter what the label or diagnosis is. I don't even like talking about "how to interact with a BPD" - labeling is very reductive and kind of patronizing. So again, I agree with Steve that I view this more as "that person has emotional baggage, just like every single person on the planet."
I do think Emotional Abuse can exist without malicious intent. But it's really really really easy to call something "emotional abuse" when it's really just "relationship conflict." My W called me "financially controlling" because she didn't understand our finances. She never asked! I never withheld money. She has business accounts I have never had access to, nor do I know the value. The day she accused me I printed out all our passwords and account values, and she didn't even look at it for 4 months. Was she gaslighting me? I don't think so. What she felt was a lack of control herself because we moved and she stopped working. So I try to understand the source of her accusation without taking it at face value.
Now, I will say, your W sounds more extreme than mine. My MR issues really started 2-3 years ago, whereas you seem to have had conflict with your W from Day 1.
So going back to my original point -- I've spent over a year now in IC, reading books, listening to podcasts, really trying to understand my own baggage and what's going on in my sitch. Emotional Abuse, BPD, NPD -- all labels. Useful for educating one's self, but don't get overly consumed with deciding whether the label fits or not. I've decided there are only 2 things that matter:
1. NGS is real. Work on myself and fix it.
2. Abuse, BPD, NPD - the labels don't matter. The only thing that matters now is whether my W is willing to work on her baggage.
Baggage in the form of (using your list):
Relationship Scorecard - the barrage of complaints (someone once told me this is called the s@#$ tsunami) where you end up feeling like crap no matter how much validation you employ. Awful way to communicate. I've raised this in MC, it is a condition for R. New Year's Eve she went off with 12 different complaints in a 30 minute barrage.
Interference/Control - Check. Example My W complained our first time in MC last year. about household chores. Then when I agreed to do them, she said I would not hold up my end of the bargain - she actually resisted allowing me to attempt to do them! So we started small: I ended up doing the dishes every day (so she could leave the dish full of dirty dishes and not worry about them), and even then, she would complain I was too noisy, or doing it at the wrong time. I told her, "Listen, this is my task now, as long as I am not waking the kids up or being overly disruptive, please allow me to do the dishes the way I want". That helped. I'm only saying that surmounting the hurdle of extremely controlling behavior can be difficult, but it is is possible. You just have to assert yourself.
Relationship Hostage - Mine has been more subtle, in the form of her distancing herself and stopping communication. Again, a communication style that does not work for me.
Blaming Others - "You make me..." Anytime I hear this now, I always call my W out. I can't make anybody feel a certain way, or make them do anything.
I think it's very healthy to identify the things you would like to see change. Whether or not you call it abuse, you want your W to change those behaviors. Whether or not your W has malicious intent with these behavior also does not matter - you just want your W to change those behaviors.
TLDR: Focus on the behavior changes, not the diagnosis or intent behind the behaviors.
Excellent insight unchien - thanks
Unchien, thanks. I agree with you actually. Me, the NG drove a lot of that behaviour and I admit that. NG play victim and I agree I fall in that trap still. You reminded me that my psy in IC doesn't like labels and yeah, whilst it helps me to make sense of my confusing world ultimately, leave it to the professionals for diagnisis.
Those are old behaviours driven by different people in a relationship that is now dead. As a recovering NG asserting boundaries and detaching this emotional baggage has not surfaced much for months. And that genuinely makes me happy, driving a positive feedback loop. And my emotinal baggage is, over time, being dealt with.
I'll take a page from No More Mr. NG and say that my W (STBXW, XW or whatever) is a gift, a gift to learn to be a better man and a better person. S is what was needed to break co-dependency and to learn how to live, through GAL and through spending time alone. I meant it when I say despite the sh*tty sitch, and that I'm not emotionally satisfied, I'm actually at the most happiest place in my life. And I can thank her for starting that journey for me.
Josh_T - 100% agree with the gift, I read that book a year and a half ago and didn't understand. I re-read it last month and I thought "this guy just explained exactly how I feel."
I am going to re read these last 6-10 posts here. Generate a list, and identify and work on these things. This is by far the best informative post I have seen yet on here. It really brings together all the mindsets, proper validation techniques, composure, behavioral, and idendification of healthy and unhealthy R dynamics.
Unchien,
Re-read your post, as it was insightful...
And you seem to have done the research / reading up on this.. Appologies for the hyjack to Josh's post, but i do have a question about this statement...
1. NGS is real. Work on myself and fix it.
2. Abuse, BPD, NPD - the labels don't matter. The only thing that matters now is whether my W is willing to work on her baggage.
Label or not, i believe my WW emotionally abused me and suffered BPD / NPD... I walked into my first councilling session with a list of issues that i felt needed addressing. At this point i had never heard of cluster B disorders, BPD or Vunerable NPD ( i'd heard the term narsasist, but related it to a poser like Lex Luger from WWF when i was like 10 ), but VNPD had never entered my head.
It was the counciler who mentioned this before our second session from memory - This was based off what i had written down as issues in session 1.. Out of my 8 issues with my WW, 7 fall into the BPD / NPD box..
My WW had baggage... I see that now, and i definetly had / have NGS - Ive just reread my intro post on this board from January and i list 5 times when she overstepped the mark and i just ignored / bent over the accomidate...
But my point / question being, baggage is one thing... and if the WW is prepared to work on it, great - .. But from my own research and from everything ive read, it is very very hard to get people with BPD / VNPD to even accept they have issues, let alone work on it. The general advice online seems to be walk away from BPD, VNPD people...
thoughts on this ?
BPD takes planned responses and exercises, counciling, and emotional regulation. At least one year of therapy. I have BPD characteristics cross linked with mild ADD. Basically my experience has been low frustration tolerance. Repeaded boundary crossing. Thoughts that manifest into active emotional responses that may or may not be relevant to the current situation. So it lends credibility to others having experienced the Dr. Jeckyl/Mr. Hyde affect. The thoughts precede the emotions. Its a spectrum ranging from benign to malignant. Some people have anxiety, compulsive thoughts, and are "a little high strung" sensitive, and reactionary. Make sense?
Helpme12, don't worry about hijacking this post. All good stuff because I'm interested too in BPD since many of those behaviours are relatable. Seems to me NGS and BPD are a natural combo like anxious/avoidant attachment. In any event, I think its about what you can live with. If my W's new norm is to try to cross a boundary once a month, cooling down the same day, I could live with that. If it's complaining about things because she has low tolerance (and she does) but doesn't direct that frustration to me or the kids, I could live with that.
It's something I need to wait and see because I don't know how much of this she brought to R versus NGS created by me. Maybe nothing of W will change even thought NGS is no more. I can only hope that is not true and stay positive that my changes will impact her in some way. MWD even talks about this in her "Takes One to Tango" concept.
There is so much on BPD online, i can relate to what unchein says about labelling..
From my personal context ( the the bits that ive read that relate to my sitch )
Lovebombing - i got hit with Major love bombs from the day i met her ( might have been the week later when i asked her out ) - she added me on Facebook and sent me txt after txt. I had never had any previous GF give me this level of attention.. And they say "crazy in head, crazy in bed" - I felt like i was living with a porn star.
She always used to compliment me as well - excessivelly..
She would also make "off the wall" comments about me leaving her once we found out she was pregnant... Used to confuse me.
I've read a lot of references to extreme jealousy - This should have been a major red flag, as she used to go crazy if females messaged me - friends or ex GFs - with 12 months i had ceased all contact with any old female friends as it wasnt worth the ex getting upset..
The need for attention was off the scale and i found her flirting / deleting messages from her ex BF, just after D1 was born..
Another biggy was never being in the wrong. She would never appologise and it was always somebody elses fault.. 100% of the time, even if it was 100% obvious it was her mess up - she could never accept it.
Probably the biggest was the emotional blackmail. If she didnt get own way, i was accused of abuse or being controlling...
Some of the worst examples were..
2015 - 8 weeks pregnant and we got offered a low offer on our house which was for sale. I refused to accept it. We had agreed a figure and we both agreed we wouldnt go any lower. Once we got offered the lower figure, she wanted to accept it.. I refused so she booked an abortion and said she would have it unless i accepted the lower offer. By this time, the buyers own sale had falled through, so she was livid that we couldnt sell. She then found a new build that offered "part ex" - the deal was terrible and the house wasnt suitable.. So she went ahead and had the abortion.. 4 weeks later we moved into rented accomidation and she was happy - and wanted to try for a baby again..
2017 - Moved into our "dream home" and decided she wanted a boob job - just like that.... I said we couldnt afford as we had just moved house.. Her solution was to tell our children we were no longer going on holiday ( which was booked and paid for ).. She didnt care that the eldest was upset... she decided if she couldnt have the boob job, we werent going away.. Again NGS kicked in and i paid for it with my bonus.
There are a lot more.. But this isnt normal.
Once she went WW, all this went 10 fold and the lies and gaslighting came into full force... And of course everything got put back on me..
What i find ironic in all this is that before WW left, i heard some of the conversations / read lots of messages between her and OM... Talk about love bombing the poor guy.. and her joking about having sex 6 times last night.. She also bombed him with compliments and how she has never met a guy like him... Oh and frequent references to "after ive move out ( ie from our home ) you will probably not want me any more"...Basically in my eyes, she is showing the exact same traits she showed when we got together.
H If my W's new norm is to try to cross a boundary once a month, cooling down the same day, I could live with that.
Depends on the boundary.. My WW started to message an ex BF after D1 was born... She never saw anything wrong with flirting... I should have walked then.. Healthy people dont do that kind of thing..
Helpme12, thats pretty extreme. I can relate but on a less severe scale. Here are the boundaries I let her get away with:
Pick the house we bought together
Control all aspects of raising new born
Let her complain that not supporting her with a new born was the worst thing that ever happened to her
Let her remind me at least 10x a year that not supporting her with a new born was the worst thing that happened to her
Go to free R counselling which was totally ineffective (duh)
Go to govt backed R counselling which was ineffective, but lie that I'm a lowly office worker to save $
Let her have sex with OM because I obviously had no sex drive
Let her violate the don't ask don't tell boundary on sex with OM because her OM moved overseas and now she wants to put effort back to having sex
Sleep in another room off and on for years because "she needs space"
Let her pout in front of my mother and call her a snake for nothing other than being around
Ask me to lie on taxes and say we're separated in order to get govt benefits
Let her shout at kids
Let her blame kids for her emotions
Let her say within earshot of daughter that she sometimes hates her
Almost let her move family out of house, put possessions in storage, and move into in-laws to make $ on Air BnB during XMas
Tried to rationalisate a Big D property settlement where she gets the apartment, kids get family house in trust, I get SFA
Going over this list now. Wow. I'm not saying i hate myself. But WTF was I thinking? How little self respect I had. No wonder I am where I am now. God. Makes me a bit angry actually to read this. In any event, it's the past and I didn't kniw any better. For sure this sort of thing isn't happening again!
Yeah,acceptance depends on the boundary for sure. I was thinking just of things like blaming others, or relationship scorecard. Any of your examples or any my list are not acceptable in my books.
Out of all the stuff i just read, the words that hit me were "self respect"
IMO, its all about self respect.
I have known for years that her behaviour isnt normal..
Our relationship shared similar issues to yours.
Pick the house we bought together - plus everything in it - granite, kitchen, carpets, etc
Control all aspects of raising new born - very routine based - would never switch from the routine..
Let her complain that not supporting her with a new born was the worst thing that ever happened to her - heard it a million times.
These are just at a glance.. I look back now and think "dude WTF !!!! why did you let her do this"
I know the reason.. The family - our children - their stability...
At the expense of my own self respect...
My personal take on my WW - she wont change.. Boundaries wouldnt make a difference.. So i'll never put myself in a position where i lose that self repect again.. Reading your sitch, you are in a similar sitch - question is.. do you really want the hassle.. look at it as a set of scales.. One side hassle and stress.. Self respect on the other.. To me , its important that the balance tips towards self respect.
If you have read my thread at one point I said I'm fine for it to go either way. The realisation of what exactly divorce looks like is pretty good. I get to buy a new apartment or keep the house. I get kids less than half the week and can discipline them my way. I get time to myself and get to experiance the thrill of finding someome who respects boundaries, has secure attachment, and mature enough to take criticism and work through conflict.
Having said that, because I've seen what is possible with my W due to positive improvements made (yeah I'm taking credit here), I'm willing to stick it out. My plan now is to be more unavailable (GAL), keep enforcing all major boundaries, and to keep validating. But I'm also engaging an atty just in case.
I believe this is true detachment. At least it feels that way for me.
Unchien,
Re-read your post, as it was insightful...
And you seem to have done the research / reading up on this.. Appologies for the hyjack to Josh's post, but i do have a question about this statement...
1. NGS is real. Work on myself and fix it.
2. Abuse, BPD, NPD - the labels don't matter. The only thing that matters now is whether my W is willing to work on her baggage.
Label or not, i believe my WW emotionally abused me and suffered BPD / NPD... I walked into my first councilling session with a list of issues that i felt needed addressing. At this point i had never heard of cluster B disorders, BPD or Vunerable NPD ( i'd heard the term narsasist, but related it to a poser like Lex Luger from WWF when i was like 10 ), but VNPD had never entered my head.
It was the counciler who mentioned this before our second session from memory - This was based off what i had written down as issues in session 1.. Out of my 8 issues with my WW, 7 fall into the BPD / NPD box..
My WW had baggage... I see that now, and i definetly had / have NGS - Ive just reread my intro post on this board from January and i list 5 times when she overstepped the mark and i just ignored / bent over the accomidate...
But my point / question being, baggage is one thing... and if the WW is prepared to work on it, great - .. But from my own research and from everything ive read, it is very very hard to get people with BPD / VNPD to even accept they have issues, let alone work on it. The general advice online seems to be walk away from BPD, VNPD people...
thoughts on this ?
helpme - First of all, I am not a qualified mental health professional. I have a lot of history looking into this stuff but won't bore you.
Regarding your question -- isn't the classic NGS response to a challenging person to throw your hands up and walk away? Instead of deal with it constructively? I want to challenge you here not because I think you are wrong, but I think you should maybe dig a little deeper first. Perhaps your situation, regardless of outcome, is perfectly engineered to help you address your NGS. Or you could be completely right that your W is so toxic that you should truly walk away. I'm only suggesting that perhaps if you change yourself, you could change some of the dynamic with your W.
Also, you are falling into the trap that bothers me. "Here's the list of 9 BPD criteria, let's see how many my spouse satisfies." Well first of all, I know for a fact you yourself satisfy at least one of the 9: Fear of Abandonment. And by being on this forum, you likely have some trouble regulating your emotions and responses. I'm not accusing you of BPD, I'm only pointing out that all people can improve their emotional regulation and it will benefit you in all aspects of your life.
Yes, BPDs are known to walk away from treatment. I am considering firing our MC. Does that make me BPD? Wait, I am sticking with my IC... does that make me not BPD? But in IC, I am working on some DBT coping strategies, which were originally developed for BPD - am I again back to being BPD? Does it matter?
BPD in my mind is all about emotional regulation. Anyone can improve their emotional regulation, including NGs with their toxic shame.
Your W certainly does sound extreme. I am not denying that. I think the important question to consider is whether she is capable of change. BPDs can change. I think there are a few key steps to any change (not just BPD):
1. Accept there is a problem.
2. Stop the problematic behavior.
3. Address the underlying thoughts and attitudes that are driving the problematic behavior.
#1 is the "BPD hurdle" you read about online. #2 is good but not sufficient. #3 is what it's all about. Are they capable of true change? Well.. it takes a lot of work and motivation.
On the topic of emotional abuse -- there are truly awful people who you should run away from, full stop. But just like BPD, the term is bandied about often recklessly. Also, emotionally abusive relationships are often about the dynamic between two people and not just one individual being abusive and the other the poor victim. As a NG, I am sure I have enabled abusive behavior or even unknowingly encouraged it. Perhaps laying down some appropriate boundaries would reduce the symptoms. Do you feel counter-accused? Look at step #1 above. Again, these are meant to be light challenges just to get you thinking before jumping too quickly to conclusions - your initial conclusion may be completely right.
Anyways, all the labels are useful and can lead you to finding great material online. I just heavily resist the labeling aspect. Even the "NG" label is problematic. It's a good gateway into learning, just don't identify too heavily with the label.
Steve85 said it very succinctly - mostly this is about a spouse's emotional issues and baggage. And it is also about your own baggage as well. You have to decide whether or not you believe she is capable of change, and be at peace with your decision, but also investigate your own role and any personal changes you feel are necessary.
One last comment on walking away from BPD. My mom has some sort of a cluster B BPD/NPD mix of issues. About three years ago she severed our relationship. It is really sad to see my kids grow up and no longer know their grandparents. I have accepted it, and feel relief not dealing with the anxiety and constant stress of trying to manage that relationship. But... in the back of my mind, sometimes I feel like I have taken the easy way out just accepting this. Perhaps I can try to salvage something. Perhaps I could set some healthy boundaries up front, even ask my parents to go to counseling themselves, and try to make something work, because they are family after all. Maybe it wouldn't work. Maybe regardless of the outcome, it would be a step in healing my NGS...
You guys might want to read OrangeK's first few threads. His WW met some descriptions of the B cluster personality. OrangeK had a terrible time accepting it and detaching, and still has to work on it, I think. Anyway, it might be enlightening to see his own struggles while dealing with her.
Seems to me NGS and BPD are a natural combo like anxious/avoidant attachment.
You might be right to an extent, IDK. I said some time ago that WW's tend to have some narcissistic traits. I'm not saying all WW are narcissists. However, I think when their wayward behavior spikes, they certainly imitate a woman with NPD. That's just MHO.
I observed for quite a while the LBH's who would come & go on the DB board. Back then, I devoted many hours every week to the board, and kept up with many threads. That's when it became obvious to me that the majority of the threads I read from LBH's all had something in common, other than a W who wanted out of the M. These H's showed tendencies of being a Nice-Guy and seem to be M to women who showed their own brand of similarities. Now I won't say every single man with NGS on the board has a WW, but IMHO, the majority do. In my own mind, I haven't come to the full conclusion that all WW's have a H with NGS, but I think it's more common.......which makes sense when you consider the foundation for her wayward mindset. She needs him to be stronger than she is, and has to respect him in order to love him.
It may have been your thread I've previously made this statement, so forgive me for repeating. I believe it is so difficult for the H to accept that his W is wayward (mainly, b/c he does not fully understand the mindset behind it) that he tries to label her having hormonal imbalance, a MLC, or is a WAW, has a personality disorder, or any number of issues from her past. In many cases, it's
true.......but in many other cases it is waywardness. It's a woman who is M to a man who has been too weak (for whatever reason) too nice, and has spoiled her by allowing her to pout, threaten, manipulate, play the victim, or roughshod her way through their M. It's all about
her, and she calls the shots. Waywardness is serious, but it's totally within her power to change whenever she wants. The key is her "want to". It is not a mental disease, although it might resemble someone being possessed by demons at times. Her wayward mindset does not develop overnight, and by the time she has dropped the bomb (if she does), her H wonders who in the world is this woman.
Please don't misunderstand and think I am trying to discredit anyone who has mental issues or emotional problems. Goodness knows there are many people today who suffer with all sorts of issues......and their spouse/family suffers, too. I'm simply using this post to express my personal observations during the years I've been here and trying to learn and share with others.
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I can relate but on a less severe scale. Here are the boundaries I let her get away with:
Pick the house we bought together
Control all aspects of raising new born
Let her complain that not supporting her with a new born was the worst thing that ever happened to her
Let her remind me at least 10x a year that not supporting her with a new born was the worst thing that happened to her
Go to free R counselling which was totally ineffective (duh)
Go to govt backed R counselling which was ineffective, but lie that I'm a lowly office worker to save $
Let her have sex with OM because I obviously had no sex drive
Let her violate the don't ask don't tell boundary on sex with OM because her OM moved overseas and now she wants to put effort back to having sex
Sleep in another room off and on for years because "she needs space"
Let her pout in front of my mother and call her a snake for nothing other than being around
Ask me to lie on taxes and say we're separated in order to get govt benefits
Let her shout at kids
Let her blame kids for her emotions
Let her say within earshot of daughter that she sometimes hates her
Almost let her move family out of house, put possessions in storage, and move into in-laws to make $ on Air BnB during XMas
Tried to rationalisate a Big D property settlement where she gets the apartment, kids get family house in trust, I get SFA
Josh, I am trying to understand what you mean when you say, "Boundaries I let her get away with". Yes,
you allowed her to do these actions without any consequences, apparently. But were they boundaries you already had in place? I kind of doubt it. I think you knew it was wrong to allow it, and especially in hindsight, you see what a terrible mistake it was to let her have complete reign of your lives. You may not have agreed in your heart, but you went along with whatever she did, even if you tried to just avoid confrontation......it put your stamp of approval on her actions! Boundaries without consequences, are not boundaries at all.
A woman who does not respect her H will get worse in her behavior, not better. Her behavior will never improve, until he decides to be a alpha male and take charge and put a stop to this inexcusable behavior under his own roof and within his own relationships. None of those actions on that list can be excused away by labeling it as a disorder or whatever. She sounds extremely spoiled and has been allowed to treat her family in very bad, selfish and immature ways. Yes, you are to blame for allowing it, b/c you are the head of the home/family and there were no boundaries set at all, from what I can tell. You should have said "no", and put a stop to it. You just let her do anything she wanted, whether it was ethically or legally wrong and/or emotionally damaging to your relationship and your kids. When a woman is allowed to continue this type of selfish and just horrible behavior, it may eventually lead her into a downward spiral until she develops some type of mental issues as the results, but frankly.......all these behaviors above spells one thing, WAYWARD. She may have been wayward when you married her, IDK, but she is certainly worse now!
Josh, do you have a plan of action?
Sandi,
Well spoken. Yes, they are not boundaries. Just fear of stepping up. And my observation having stepped up is that it works. For now W is in a bit of shock that she isn't getting her way. And ruminating on the consequences.
My plan:
GAL. I'm being a bit more scarce at home and plan to ramp it up.
Still spend some time with W, but only if she asks AND I have no plans
Still silently take care of cleaning house, kids school prep
Get an atty to understand my options but not to escalate unless W does
Go to gym more
Plan potential R topics that might come up and think how to respond like Steve
Stand up to shouting at kids by enforcing a boundary with consequences
Stand up to interference
Slow or no response to SMS
Wait for her to initiate action, be it moving out or legal
Cook a bit on weekends even though I'm terrible
Continue to be positive and happy (I am anyway)
Be open that things can go either way
ATM she's in a talkative friendly state. Went with kids to visit a friend's farm for 24 hours. She even is quick to invite me the minute I ask when she's back. But I said I'm doing my own thing.
My mental state is that I have no fear. Of her, or the future.
One question for all is, she constantly comments about being tired of "doing everything". Not true. Was true, years ago, not now. I dont respond usually although sometime I will validate. Thoughts?
I know Sandi talks alot about detachment strategies and Steve talks alot about alpha male strategies for WW who are actively in an EA or PA. For a WW who has bluntly said it's over and I'm single I'm wondering how hard of an approach to take. I have no evidence of anything and sure if I look, anxiety could suggest anything. Let's assume no.
I talk about ramping things up and think if she's my roommate (which is the logical conclusion since shes single in her eyes) then I should:
Minimise contact with inlaws (hard! I'll organise GAL so they conflict)
Dont do her laundry
Always do family things
Book lots of GAL time away
Don't initiate conversations
Minimal phone contact and sms are short
Minimal time together watching tv (i feel she's lonely and when in the mood she asks)
Don't ask about her nights out even if she insists they are with her gay friend
All bad behaviour is promptly addressed
All complaining is validated, but nothing more
No compliments, no initiating physical contact
Right now things are stable. And at the risk of sounding sexist, surprising since she is on her period (she initiates most conflict during this time of month).
Josh_T - OK so... the forum is going to tend to give you hard-line advice. Most of your plan sounds find except it all sounds very strict "Don't do this, No that". Just make sure you do this with a PMA. Let me try to rewrite them:
I notice you mentioned your W complained about being tired of doing everything.
I know Sandi talks alot about detachment strategies and Steve talks alot about alpha male strategies for WW who are actively in an EA or PA. For a WW who has bluntly said it's over and I'm single I'm wondering how hard of an approach to take. I have no evidence of anything and sure if I look, anxiety could suggest anything. Let's assume no.
I talk about ramping things up and think if she's my roommate (which is the logical conclusion since shes single in her eyes) then I should:
Minimise contact with inlaws (hard! I'll organise GAL so they conflict)
Dont do her laundry
Always do family things
Book lots of GAL time away
Don't initiate conversations
Minimal phone contact and sms are short
Minimal time together watching tv (i feel she's lonely and when in the mood she asks)
Don't ask about her nights out even if she insists they are with her gay friend
All bad behaviour is promptly addressed
All complaining is validated, but nothing more
No compliments, no initiating physical contact
Right now things are stable. And at the risk of sounding sexist, surprising since she is on her period (she initiates most conflict during this time of month).
Josh_T - Sorry the above post was an accidental post before I finished
OK so... the forum is going to tend to give you hard-line advice. Most of your plan sounds find except it all sounds very strict "Don't do this, No that". Just make sure you do this with a PMA. Let me try to rewrite them:
Be friendly when she initiates conversation, mostly validate, no R talk, limit phone/text to logistics
Let her live her life without interference
Live my own life, own my own happiness
Set boundaries with appropriate consequences
For some soft-line advice - I may post more later. I hesitate because it would put focus back on your W, and most of us LBS's need to be over-corrected hard in the opposite direction. All I will say now is I don't believe her "doing everything" complaint... because you addressed it, and it changed nothing. I've been through this. What happened later is I found out there were deeper issues at play, and I think it is valid for me to at least consider addressing the issues in a way that respects my own values (i.e., I don't just try to solve my W's problems). Otherwise I will bring the same baggage into my future.
Thanks unchien. Much simpler view of what I need to do. Feel free to elaborate. Don't worry about focus on W. Any insight on me or W is helpful.
Funny how right off the bat today I didn't live up to the sms bit. She was to be out all evening but something changed. She sms that she'd be home in 20 and I said I'd be at a restaurant with the kids. She attempted to divert me home so she could make dinner but I wasn't going to have a bar of it. She arrived at tbe restaurant, complained about various things in her life, complained she wasn't eating because it was junk food (Italian pizza), took a small swipe at me to say I know you wouldn't cook (I said they are my responsibility and it's up to me to feed them as I see fit). We left the restaurant and the kids wanted to drive home with me. She actually looked dejected.
I'm in my room, avoiding, and will be going out soon. It's dangerous to be around her tonight as there's a high risk of depressive R talk.
It's strange because I know she's on her period and usually her moods are dreadful and she tends to start fights. None of that so far. Taking a hard look at her future? Keeping me happy so she has a stable life until big D? Who knows. I'm over analysing. Whatever. I feel free not worrying about her well being.
So I spoke too soon. W decides that she's bored and calls a friend to go out to dinner. I guess she didn't want to cook. I'm to look after the kids, which I know. Bath time after movie. But she starts drawing the water and tells me to put the youngest in the bath. "The movie is over already?" She says "no". "Well I thought bath was after movie?" I say. "Fine you do it then!". She stops the bath and storms off.
So what exactly is going on here? She's lonely and mad that she didn't have the dinner she imaged with the family because her dinner plan not eventuate? Then she's upset because I go to my room and ignore her? I actually think this is it. Her poor attempt at a fight is actually much lamer than what I'm used to. Is that just an attempt to hurt me?
I do think something is going on in her head. This morning she locked herself in her room until I left with my S to go shopping. Probably crying because her phone was on the kitchen table. At least she isn't taking it out on me and keeping it contained. I'm just waiting for the "I can't live with you anymore" line or the "I need to sell the house". It's so true rule #32 "Do not believe anything they say and 50% of what they do. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared". My W, at the end of the day, hasn't done anything other than move to a different bedroom. Only action thus far . . .
Forgot to mention EA. She wanted to travel by herself post BD. I said yes and foolishly took time off to take care of kids. I wish I set that boundary but I didn't know you all here then. Anyway.
She came back and I was still hoping we could reconcile. In one of her angry monologues she said she didn't love me amd she was in love with someone she met overseas.
So, there's the affair. Is she still in contact with OM, or do you know?
My plan:
GAL. I'm being a bit more scarce at home and plan to ramp it up. Great! Fill up your calendar, so you will always "have plans".
Still spend some time with W, but only if she asks AND I have no plans Good, but I think you'll need to find the strength to tell her you have already made plans.
Still silently take care of cleaning house, kids school prep
Get an atty to understand my options but not to escalate unless W does
Go to gym more You have to schedule and make it one of your priorities, or you'll never have time for it.
Plan potential R topics that might come up and think how to respond like Steve
Stand up to shouting at kids by enforcing a boundary with consequences Okay, good! What will be her consequences? You have to know in advance, not wait until the shouting begins.
Stand up to interference How?
Slow or no response to SMS Are you tough enough to send no response when she asks no questions?
Wait for her to initiate action, be it moving out or legal
Cook a bit on weekends even though I'm terrible Okay, but what is your reason?
Continue to be positive and happy (I am anyway)
Be open that things can go either way
Looks good.
ATM she's in a talkative friendly state. Went with kids to visit a friend's farm for 24 hours. She even is quick to invite me the minute I ask when she's back. But I said I'm doing my own thing.
Great!
One question for all is, she constantly comments about being tired of "doing everything". Not true. Was true, years ago, not now. I dont respond usually although sometime I will validate. Thoughts?
Humm, I wonder who would do the work if she lived alone? As I told another poster yesterday, I don't have a lot of empathy for spoiled women. It sounds as if you are already carrying the burden of keeping the house clean, tending to the kids' needs, etc. IDK if she is hinting for you to do more, so she'll have more playtime, or if she needs to take B12 shot.
Maybe you could say, "What do you suggest is a more equal division of chores?"
I've had to work all my married life, raising kids, taking care of everything except some of the major outside jobs. The only time my H offered to cook or sweep a floor was if I was sick in bed. He would watch the kids, as long as they stayed in room with the tv. A few times, I felt sorry for myself and sometimes I resented that he didn't help at all. It was usually when I was so tired when I would come home from my job, I would be on the verge of tears. That's tired! His excuse was that his work was more physically draining than mine. In today's young families, most men know they need to help the working wife/mom b/c of the fast pace in which we live. I am against a man having to take care of the entire home & kids when he has a WW who is a SAHM and she is spoiled, lazy, selfish, with a sense of entitlement. There's a difference in
sharing the workload, and doing
everything just b/c she complains. That's JMHO.
Sandi,
Don't know if she is still in contact. My feeling is not or not much because I don't see her holed up in her room like before. However if I look at her provacation where she attempts to reassert her position as single, it's possible she's still in contact. Pushing me away to feel better and ease her mind. Honestly I don't know, I don't want to get worked up about it. She is wayward, her mind is all over the place. And the EA is a completely unrealistic fantasy. True or mit it changes nothing.
We had an agreement where I cook on weekends. Sometimes she breaks that plan to do something she likes. Then will turn around and say I'm not honouring my agreement. She's about to do it tomorrow. I plan let her cook if she wants but if she later says I've dropped the ball, I'll bloody remind her that this reaction is manipulative.
To be fair she cooks on weekdays and does some cleaning. It wasn't always split so she would harbour resentment over that. But I do feel her complaining is a proxy for her unhappiness. What I'm saying is that housework is split and her nature is just to complaim no matter what I do.
Last night she outGALed me with two last minute plans. She must have been feeling low. I had a great evening with kids so happy about that.
SMS, well so far no im not strong enough. I'm going to try. But her nose will be way out of joint. Oh well.
I saw on another thread you talk about family time as cake eating? I get the point about family vacays as I just came bsck from an aweful one. But can you elaborate? It it the case, only things for kids, nothing else? Or are you advocating no family outings with WW? Like no family dinners out? That wouldn't make sense because I understood kid time and family time were the one thing we should put focus on. Or maybe that was LRT where i read that.
Pushing me away to feel better and ease her mind.
That's not why she pushes you away.
Honestly I don't know, I don't want to get worked up about it. She is wayward, her mind is all over the place. And the EA is a completely unrealistic fantasy. True or mit it changes nothing.
My reason for asking if she's still in contact with OM, is due to its addictive nature.
We had an agreement where I cook on weekends. Sometimes she breaks that plan to do something she likes. Then will turn around and say I'm not honouring my agreement. She's about to do it tomorrow. I plan let her cook if she wants but if she later says I've dropped the ball, I'll bloody remind her that this reaction is manipulative.
Yep! That's what a man should do when his W tries to pull this mess. Call her out on it, and use a firm voice. Get up from the table and leave the house, but don't pretend she didn't say anything. The more you choose to "overlook" this behavior, the more she'll do it. I think if she said something about me not honoring my agreement, I'd have to say, "Maybe I don't understand. Why don't you explain honoring agreements?" Then let her hang herself when she starts talking about doing what one promises or agrees. She may not even make the connection with her own promises to love and honor. WW's are usually so full of themselves they don't see the irony of their own words.
What I'm saying is that housework is split and her nature is just to complaim no matter what I do.
Did she act this way before you married her? It is an unattractive attitude and very negative habit. I think you might be just too nice, and let her get away with it. You try to pick up the slack and do whatever to make her happy, but she doesn't stop with the complaining. Have you ever imitated her? Let her see what it's like to live with a chronic complainer. Beat her at her own game by extremely complaining until she can't get a word in edgewise. So what if she doesn't like? Who cares, if she is driving everyone nuts.
Perhaps she doesn't know, or believe, that everyone is responsible for their own happiness.
Last night she outGALed me with two last minute plans.
And pray tell, Mr. Nice Guy, how did she outGALed you? Look, she may be queen of complaining & manipulating, but no more so than your too nice-guy ways. You justify it like all the other nice guy newcomers who are stuck at home keeping the kids, b/c WW outGALed them.......and you are JUST SO HAPPY ABOUT IT, b/c you enjoy your kids. That's great Josh, but you let her outGALed you (if I'm understanding this language correctly). You really think she was feeling so low is why she outGALed you? People who are truly depressed/low aren't usually out GAL. No more "last minute plans" that work keeping you home. Keep your calendar full so you'll always have plans, and outGAL her.
SMS, well so far no im not strong enough. I'm going to try. But her nose will be way out of joint. Oh well.
Will you listen to me? When you reach the place that it doesn't bother you that her nose is way out of joint, it will change your life.......and I'm pretty sure it will change your MR. The problem is that you are always trying to
accommodate your WW. In a relationship where both spouses are unselfish and caring toward each other, that's fine. But that's not your MR. Your W is wayward, and one thing waywards have in common are their men have NGS, and have spoiled them. By spoiling, I mean you let her get away with this crap. Why do you feel you have to carry her around on a feather pillow? It's b/c she's made you feel responsible for her unhappiness! That's how she works, and will continue working you until the day you get fed up and decide you don't have to take it anymore. So, get over it, and start new behavior patterns. ((hugs))
I saw on another thread you talk about family time as cake eating? I get the point about family vacays as I just came bsck from an aweful one. But can you elaborate? It it the case, only things for kids, nothing else? Or are you advocating no family outings with WW? Like no family dinners out? That wouldn't make sense because I understood kid time and family time were the one thing we should put focus on. Or maybe that was LRT where i read that.
In my opinion, the most effective method to use with a WW is to drop her. I have been here long enough to know that extremely nice guys are not likely to drop her right away. I feel that's where they make their mistake, by taking too long and taking so much disrespect that it destroys any chance of reconciliation. So, I will break this down more by suggesting that whenever the couple is sleeping in separate bedrooms, calling themselves in-house separated, or physically separated........the H should immediately stop family activities or family outings. For one thing, if she is wayward and they are separated, she's probably in some type of an affair or GGW activity. Therefore, he really needs to dump her for the affair and her lack of respect.
As I said in the other thread, the WW will use the M for whatever benefits her most. Vacations, family outings, holiday and special events, dinner with the relatives, shopping together, having her H escort her to social or public gatherings..........these are benefits for her. She isn't thinking about working on the M or getting closer to him! When she doesn't want him along, she has no problem with letting him know, or ditching him at home. But, he continues to tell himself that all this family togetherness will bring them closer together. Maybe in the movies, but in real life with a
wayward W, it doesn't work. She has lost her respect and feelings of love for him, but it can turn around if he is strong enough to stop putting up with her waywardness. I use the word waywardness in that sentence, to cover several things a WW can develop over the period of her wayward heart/mindset.
Family activities may be defined as when they sit down for dinner at home. I have no problem with it, just as long as the WW is not showing disrespect toward her H. While certain aspects of the home life may carry on (until separation/divorce, or reconciliation), they don't have to attend other type of family activities. Sometimes there may be a rare exception, like the children's birthday party, b/c if the parents aren't separated then both of them need to be with the kids for their birthday celebration. However, if they are separated, then they should have two or more birthday celebrations. I may be forgetting something, b/c this off the top of my head as I type, but maybe the general idea has been explained.
It's always hard when children are involved. I've read so many posts where a LBH will say he is doing it for his kids (whatever "it" may be). I have a hard time believing it's all for the kids, knowing how the NGS operates. Is it better if the kids go for a while without these "family" activities, or for the rest of their lives? Is it better to miss Christmas at the grandparents one year, or forever? People can survive missing vacations or eating dinner out.
These are not some random thoughts I've had. For a long time, I have observed both personal and impersonal situations involving a WW, whether with kids or without kids. The times where the MR was reconciled and continued successfully, involved this tough love that I've tried to explain above.
So I spoke too soon. W decides that she's bored and calls a friend to go out to dinner. I guess she didn't want to cook. I'm to look after the kids, which I know. Bath time after movie. But she starts drawing the water and tells me to put the youngest in the bath. "The movie is over already?" She says "no". "Well I thought bath was after movie?" I say. "Fine you do it then!". She stops the bath and storms off.
So what exactly is going on here? She's lonely and mad that she didn't have the dinner she imaged with the family because her dinner plan not eventuate? Then she's upset because I go to my room and ignore her? I actually think this is it. Her poor attempt at a fight is actually much lamer than what I'm used to. Is that just an attempt to hurt me?
It's a power struggle of who is in charge, and she intends to be on top. Combine that with her thoughts mainly on herself, and you have a very unattractive female. She is impetuous.
I do think something is going on in her head. This morning she locked herself in her room until I left with my S to go shopping. Probably crying because her phone was on the kitchen table. At least she isn't taking it out on me and keeping it contained. I'm just waiting for the "I can't live with you anymore" line or the "I need to sell the house".
The words in bold speaks loudly to me. Has this mostly been the personality you've seen in your W since marrying her?
You are so right. I look at today and whilst I stood my ground on some s*tty behaviour, yeah I was bothered by my inability to stop being nice. She talked a lot to me today, about how so and so wants us to come over. As if we were married. She talked about how she still felt worry about how we bought the house (we bought, before sold) and doesn't like the house. I talked her down because I knew where this was heading (into a tirade about our relationship). Ten minutes later, she says she loves living here.
Sandi, You've clarified what I know deep down I've had to do all along. Because I hate this sitch and I know if it drags on, I'm the one who will leave. Which saves her the work of course. I've been too chicken.
It's Monday tomorrow. A new week. I'm going to make this promise. I don't care if the s*t will fly. It's going to hit her hard and I need to do something.
I promise that:
- SMS and phone rules are in force, exception being kids logistics
- All family events stop, barring Sons Bday which is in two weeks. This includes family get togethers on the weekend. If asked why I reply: "I'm not your husband, you fired me remember? I'm single and have no desire to be friends with someone who disrespects me" (to quote her lines)
- I will book my calendar
- I will pop on DB Forums in a week to post an update
- You can put me in my place if I don't follow through
Wish me luck
I actually physically feel sick. First day I keep chats to minimal. She already picks up on the change and snaps that I don't want to be with her. I book in three GALs this week though! I come home and she's cold as ice. Because probably I never asked about her day. I'm going out tonight and for whatever reason she's decided not to make dinner. Something about can't make spaghetti bol because I didn't make the sauce on the weekend. I said of course not, you wanted to cook on the w/e so I never made it. I ask her if she is asking me to cook now. She says no. Fine.
So she's picking a fight. I'm killing time with my son before kids complain of being hungry. I can't help think this is a ploy to guilt me to cook so I miss my GAL. She's just reading a book. But I know kids will watch YouTube until well after I'm gone. She never asked me to cook, her problem.
Wow, first day, didn't think it'd be this hard. Don't mean to be sexist, bur I know she's on her period so emotions are running high. I'm putting on a cheery front. But ef me. Wait when I decline family time. It's going to be just aweful that convo.
But you know, i feel relief. Relief that I'm doing the right thing for me. And it will end one way or another.
Man i did a pretty bad job today. She totally rattled me. Like she saw me coming. I stayed cheerful, but it was clear i was avoiding her. I reread Sandi's rules. Number 19, show her your someone to hang around. Really hard when you're to be sparse on the talk and avoiding. Always another day. Think of her as a good housemate I guess.
But glad GAL worked out today. Lifted my mood. Got another one later in the week, can't wait.
Man i did a pretty bad job today. She totally rattled me. Like she saw me coming. I stayed cheerful, but it was clear i was avoiding her. I reread Sandi's rules. Number 19, show her your someone to hang around. Really hard when you're to be sparse on the talk and avoiding. Always another day. Think of her as a good housemate I guess.
But glad GAL worked out today. Lifted my mood. Got another one later in the week, can't wait.
I am not sure why LBSs are so blind to nuance. Not starting conversations, not being around her all the time, and in general "avoiding her" (though I think that is a false characterization of what we advocate) doesn't mean you aren't "hanging" around. Not hanging around is kicking her out of the house or moving out yourself. Filing for D, and moving on completely. As in that you give-up at the first sign of marital problems. Leaving for good is not the same as giving her the time and space that SHE ASKED FOR.
Wow. What an evening. She already detected my lack of response to sms today. Said she doesn't like how we're communicating. Then said she's lonely and why don't you spend time with me. I said it's no longer my obligation as you fired me as husband. Then comes the twist. "At least a flatmate cares, i cant live with you". I said well you can move out (she got me). Then comes an attempt at discussing selling the house because "don't you know the law? It doesn't work that way." I'm calm. I said come back with a proposal and then we'll talk. I then said I'm leaving. Which I did.
My god. What sort of person is this? I was really happy at dinner. Chatty and it was friendly. Suddenly it degenerates to this. Anyhow I'm in my car, calming down. I pull the cake away and what a tantrum. Petulant indeed.
I'd actually be happy if she moved out. I can't take her attitude much longer. And I'm curious about "her proposal". If she'll follow through with something. Should be interesting because it won't be fair. I can't say if she'll follow through or not. Let's see.
I admit yesterday i was avoidant and she picked up on that like a hawk. Today i wasn't. All friendly. Just avoiding sms.
I also like how she said "but we wont use lawyers because we can work it out". Dunny phrase to say.
Anyhow i need to vent. I'm too agitated.
I come back home. She's lockes in her room. I joke with the kids. She eventually comes out, friendly. Complains about her job, complains about something else, she's about to cry, throws in a barb about me being mean. I validate her "terrible situation". She's thankful, says she won't remember this in six months, than disappears to have a bath.
Standard "mean to me" response when people say things they don't like.
I'm guessing she's way off kilter with things? I didn't throw a big fight, still positive and friendly.
I feel I'm WAY out of my depth here. I'd never do this, I've never felt this sick in the stomach before. Deep down I feel this is right. Maybe it's too late to stand up. Maybe she has to move out and LRT kicks in. But in a weird way thi feels right. I've pulled the cake from the spoiled WAW. What friend fantasy world is she living in?
It's absolutely #$&%ed how i feel my sitch is but everyone here, thank you for giving me the courage to step up. I've changed tremendously before I came here and I feel more so since. I noticed the other day I was driving more assertively, a reflection of how I'm feeling inside.
I will get through this one way or another. And I know this is just the beginning. I'm not apologising for the back to back posts, only NG would do that.
Josh I'm nearing towards the beginning of the end phase of the whole selling the house/mediators/lawyers thing. We had these kind of snarky conversations months ago. Now I understand that their mindset is they don't want to use lawyers for whatever reasons whether it be due to financial constraints or because they're cheating. Mine is aware that I'm seeking lawyers council and consultation, because I was adamant not to proceed forward with mediation until I know my rights with regards to child custody and division of assets and home to make best informed decision on whether we should use mediation services or not.. She made it a point last night that of we use a L it will get more expensive. But of course only if it goes to trial. She has already met with a L/mediator which wants a retainer of $4000-$5000 just for mediation services. We are still price shopping for mediators.
She made it another point that most L consultations are not free (This is where I kept my mouth shut because I'm paying for time with the lawyer this Wednesday.) So I can figure out how to proceed forward with house cell division of assets by out refinance and child custody. We got in an argument months ago about equally dividing our time with our child and she started throwing remarks about the law at me. I would challenge her asking her will how do you know that and she couldn't answer.
For most of you on here why do they Advocate going to Easy Peasy route without the L. Is it because of money or is it because they're hiding something and don't want to get caught? What's the general scenarios with everyone on this?
My POV is that she's cheap and has this allusion that we are going to be friendly about it. My sitch is that she had this fantasy about me living near by, she keeps the rental unit, house goes into trust for kids, blah blah. So no L needed right? Well it could also be more devious in that she knows its a rotten deal for me. I'm giving her the benefit that she's just cheap. In any event she needs to do the work and and I'll be oh so friendly about it, but in the back end, you bet l will be using an L for advise. I will keep L from her best I can, at least until we agree and I need something drawn up. But let's see. Ball is with her. My first real 48hr of hard DB (rather soft until now) so I have NFI if she is all talk or will actually walk.
Last funny bit. Just before bed she temp checks AGAIN. "Will you do this errand for me tomorrow?". Me: "no, good night". She then does "some laundry?" and goes to bed. I feel aweful inside but find it funny because she is way off with my assertiveness. And I haven't blinked. I feel proud actually, that I actually did it.
Yeah its hard to understand their minds because just like us they are all over the place with emotion and logic proceeding forward. This whole thing is like 4D chess emotionally financially physically logistically etc. Have to play on multiple chess boards. Its exhausting.
One of the things I did that sobered my WAW/WW fast was contact a lawyer. The "quick and easy" D is a delusion of the WAW/WW. Don't fall for it. Think logically, not financially. People make terrible decisions in the name of trying save a buck. D is expensive no matter which way you go. Get a lawyer and make sure your bases are covered.
Steve,
I'm in the process and I'm not silly. I know I need to protect myself. I have no worries that I'll end up with something fair.
So on another note, things just keep getting weirder. Day three of hard DBing and she is really reacting. Trying to pick fights but I'm not having a bar. Tried to get me to do an errand. I said "no". Said she is "depressed". I said I'm sorry she feels that way, she says "don't ever say sorry again". But then . . .
I get a very polite, soft SMS to pick her and the kids on the way home from work. I delay but respond yes (I feel like an ahole if I don't, it's really on the way home". And then I see this email:
"I’ve been thinking we should talk about our marriage together. I’ve been frustrated and I’m sure you are too that every or many conversation we have is either rushed interrupted or late at night which doesn’t do our marriage any justice. Are you willing to have a scheduled conversation over dinner. I have nothing I really feel like discussing just a sense of no communication for a long time, do you agree?"
She's angry and picking fights, we aren't rushed! I'm GALing and she's going to bed early so, of course, no time! And I didn't realise we still have a marriage anymore since she said clearly to me "I'm single". If she has nothing to discuss then why dinner?
Now I'm surprised about this. I will not respond right away and I will feign ignorance if she asks "Did you read my email?" when I pick her up. My thoughts on responses are:
- What? We have a marriage still? I thought you said we are separated and you are single?
- If you have nothing to talk about then what is the point of dinner?
- How about an agenda on discussion points so I know what we will talk about? (Her pro-D IC told her this one)
- I'll think about it
- No
- Yes
- Yes, a good idea. Communication is always good.
- OK
A good sign I guess, but I feel it needs to be "played" or addressed carefully. I know what I want (marriage) and I know what conditions are required (respect from W, W must attend IC, MC for us). But I feel it also risks going pear-shaped as well.
Thoughts peoples on how I should respond?
[*]What? We have a marriage still? I thought you said we are separated and you are single?
[*]If you have nothing to talk about then what is the point of dinner?
These sound overly aggressive, implying faults (she said single then married, her proposal has no point).
[*]How about an agenda on discussion points so I know what we will talk about? (Her pro-D IC told her this one)
I like this! (Caveat -- I'm no expert.)
Well, I just said good idea, nominated a date, and a restaurant with one alternative. You know, I'm telling her this, not asking where she wants to go.
So I have no expectations about what she "doesn't want to discuss" and no idea where this is heading. It could very well be about Big D details and W presents property settlement details. It could be about trying to piece because she now realizes what Big D means. Who knows? I'm not reading into any of her positive or negative behaviors in the past week. No expectations right? All I know is that she has suddenly gone soft in her communication.
What I'm clear about is that if I'm staying in the friend zone, then it means I continue to DB. It means that if she moves out, I go dark. It means I want to keep the house. I will be perfectly clear if the convo goes down that path where I want to go.
If it means piecing, then the convo is about that which is not negotiable.
Does anyone have any other advice?
Josh - My Spidey senses are tingling but I don't want to project my sitch onto yours. Below will be a bunch of random disorganized thoughts:
As best as you can, try to go into this conversation with an open mind. It's impossible to script out every possible scenario, so the more comfortable you are in your own skin, and how you feel, you will respond naturally.
Do more listening than talking.
If the topic is D, keep it simple, along the lines of "I understand you want to D, that is not what I want, I prefer to work on the MR, but I will not stand in your way." Then, you are free to walk out. I used this line when my W asked for trial separation, it was really good to have this one script so I did not fall apart. You also don't even need to prepare now for this scenario.
If she brings up details about the D, I would also walk. She stated she had nothing specific to talk about. This would be catching her in a lie. You don't need to be bombarded.
It might just be she senses your DB'ing and is trying to feel out what is going on with you. Here is where I will bring in my sitch. I ended up DB'ing for about 6 weeks before I got the official BD. During that time, my W assumed I was mad, angry, losing my mind (for spending my time on hobbies)... all kinds of things. My W thought I was going to BD her with a D request! You can't control it. So be prepared your W may come out of left field with some crazy stuff. Rather than get offended, or try to correct her -- listen, validate, and, most importantly, maintain a PMA. You could even say, "Yeah, I've been trying to sort things out and work on my happiness and be the best Josh I can be" -- maybe that's too corny, but my point is spin it as positive, but also as *not about her*. Just be positive and don't defend. And don't go off on a wordy tangent about how badly you want to work on the MR and save things. Keep it short and simple.
If she brings up piecing, I would make sure not to be over-eager. I also suggest you don't go very far, perhaps just suggest going to MC full stop. I fear if you ask for MC + W in IC + W respects you, that's going to completely drive her away. You can request she goes to IC later, if you end up in MC. And respect is commanded not demanded, and would come much much later. Anyhow, I would spend the least amount of time thinking about this -- if she wants to work on things, say you do too but think you need the help of MC.
Finally, one of the more likely scenarios, she just wants to talk about the lack of communication the last few days. You could say, "Yeah, honey, I also feel like there has been a distance between us. How does it make you feel? I feel kind of sad about it." This might end up a little bit of a dance, because you don't know where she stands in the MR. It's really up to you... you could say "Yeah I feel like we are having unnecessary conflict" (i.e., she is picking fights). I don't know... if she shows some sort of willingness to WORK on communication, I think that is an opportunity to reconnect. If she's just there to complain about YOU not communicating, that's different. If communication has been a huge problem, use the opportunity, but I think you are right to be wary about her intentions.
Final piece of advice: Relax. Don't go into this thinking "This is a huge moment" even though it could be. You can handle anything that comes your way, Josh. That is AMOAFWL.
unchien,
Some great advice and yeah I need mentally to prepare. Been running through all the scenarios in my head, questions, and responses without expectations.
Then something happened that I didn't expect . . .
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