Separated 1 Year: Detaching - DivorceBusting.com

I'm not sure why, can anyone help?

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It looks like you had 98 postings/replies. I can unlock it for you...but you can only have two more postings/replies before you will reached the official 100 posting/reply lock. Do you want me to unlock it or do you want to change the title of this particular thread and start it as a new one and I can link this one to the one that is locked, etc.?

Originally Posted by job

It looks like you had 98 postings/replies. I can unlock it for you...but you can only have two more postings/replies before you will reached the official 100 posting/reply lock. Do you want me to unlock it or do you want to change the title of this particular thread and start it as a new one and I can link this one to the one that is locked, etc.?

I unlocked it but I agree with job, let us know how you want to proceed and we can make this the next thread with a new title and links.

Oh sure, if you could just make this the new one and link to the old one that would be great.
All I need to do is change the title of this one?

Originally Posted by HopeCA

Oh sure, if you could just make this the new one and link to the old one that would be great.
All I need to do is change the title of this one?

Sure what would you like to name it?

You can use Full editor and change the next post, then I will change the others

I have been separated for a little over a year now. I can not believe I am saying that, but there it is. I need to focus on detachment; gently reminding myself that I am dropping the rope, and that internally that means trying to stop all the mind reading and dissecting my interactions with my H for meaning. I am accepting that none of that actually means much, and that if he wants to come back I will know it (thank you Bluwave for this wisdom!!!) I have FINALLY accepted the oft mentioned DB fact that my detaching and dropping the rope is the only small hope for reconciliation at this point, and the healthiest thing for me regardless. I am really sad. But I also feel myself getting stronger. I�m finally taking active steps to get my life as a single mother in order; I�m actively seeking job opportunities that will allow me some flexibility to be around for my daughter as much as possible. I�m grateful for the fact that we are living in a world where it is quite possible to work from home and build a schedule somewhat around parenting. I�m working on reality checks for myself, and now trying to find the magical balance of being lovingly detached from my husband. I�ve always been the type to come across as cold when I am being protective of myself, so I�m trying to figure out the line between that and allowing for cake eating by my H. Not sure how I will figure that out, but I will.

We got into a bit of a silly argument last night and afterward I sent him a text to explain my feelings in a business like manner and to apologize for my half. He responded in kind and said some things that shows a level of self awareness that I be never seen from him. I felt very relieved and very sad at once. I wish so badly he could have applied that in our relationship. I�m trying to focus on being grateful that my daughters father may be starting to evolve as a human, because it will greatly benefit her. Here I am! I�m doing my best and trying to be kind to myself along the way. It hurts. But I�ll be ok.

You will be okay Hope. It�s just going to take time, patience and focus on you and your beautiful daughter. It will get easier. Remind yourself that the MR you had before is no more. It is important you really understand that. He has walked away from it. If you chase him, he will only walk faster. You have to turn around and look the other direction and then take some steps. Work on you. Build a life without him. IF he returns in the future, the ball will be in your court and you will get to decide if you want him in your life or not. If you do the work, detach and drop the rope, you may be really surprised how you feel. Once I truly dropped the rope in my sitch, I was able to see my MR very clearly and I realized I had been putting up with to so much CRAP that I did not deserve. My XH was a complete neglectful, emotionally abandoning jerk...as AnotherStander said... King Douche of Douchebag Land. My only regret is that I didn�t see it sooner. TBH...it still hurts sometimes...no one gets married to get divorced...but it is a hurt I can deal with and it is way less painful than my marriage was for the last four years. Anyway...every sitch is different but I absolutely believe in GAL and detaching...it is the only way to save yourself...if you save your marriage in the process, that is just a bonus. Hang in there Hope. You can do this!!! (((HUGS)))

Thanks DV. Every time I start to feel like I will be ok something knocks me down. Today is my husbands day with our daughter, and I just ran into them at the grocery store. She is only 3. She was so excited to see me and of course thought it meant we would all hang out together. She was clinging to me and asking to come home and crying. It was one of the lowest moments yet. My heart was breaking for her, and I just wanted to say yes of course, whatever you want. But I knew the best thing was to comfort her and let her know she will have fun with daddy and I�ll see her so soon. My h was quiet and impossible to read during the whole thing. He was trying to urge her on and I softly but firmly told him that this was hard for her, for us, even if not for him, and to give it a minute. I suspect he was uncomfortable and just wanted the moment to be over. I probably could have handled it better in regards to him, but I knew my daughter needed a moment. I could have left the dig out of it, but it was painful and I resent him trying to pretend it isn�t. I can�t imagine this part of all this ever not being awful.
I�m feeling angry at my H and just baffled that anyone would choose this path, inflict this unnecessary pain on our child and ruin our family. Im now trying to guide myself back to loving detachment, I wish I knew how.

HopeCA, that sounds really hard.

Is it any comfort to think that it was almost certainly harder on you than it was on your daughter? Both of my kids clung and cried like that when I left them with family or the childminder, and they were always fine 5 minutes afterwards. She loves spending time with you, she loves spending time with her daddy, and yes, in that moment she didn't want to let go of you - but she's only three. She'll have been okay. She probably doesn't remember you all living together. I know that's hard, but it's probably better to separate your own feelings from hers in that situation. Anger and grief and sadness is okay. And loving detachment will come and go.

Yes, I�d like to believe it was harder on me than it was on her. And I do struggle with separations from her in general, I�ve been at home with her for 4 years and I�m just used to being with her. And I know it�s normal for young children to cry at being separated, that�s not really what got me in this case. It�s more the very sad fact of running into my own 3 year old child on a Saturday afternoon, during a day when I would almost definitely be with her given the chance. To me it�s devastating to bump into my own child around town and say hi and be forced to leave without her. It�s just not right and it feels like the part of this that isn�t tolerable and that will always, always be horrible. That terrifies me. I know it�s usless to think of the �shoulds�, but we should be together. This is just not the way of things.

That does sound really hard Hope. I have yet to run into my XH and my kids when he has them and I am thankful for it. They would be fine probably but it would feel really wrong to me as well...especially if I run into them with him and his affair. Ugh...not looking forward to that and I�m sure it will happen one day. I feel better knowing that I�m not the one who should be feeling shame in that situation. I did run into him and her last year...when he was still insisting she was �just a roommate�...she looked terrified...lol. He just looked uncomfortable and guilty. It was very surreal to be out shopping and run into your husband and some strange woman, who, btw, is definitely an affair down. Anyway... sounds like you handled it well. I am sure your H was not unaffected by your daughter�s confusion. He was probably feeling a boatload of guilt...and so he should. Hang in there. Alison is right...it was probably way harder on you than it was on her. (((HUGS)))

Ugh. That sounds horrible DV. I don�t know how you could ever deal with that. The idea of running into my H with another woman is pretty high on my list of things I dread. Surreal is the perfect word for all of this; running into your own husband, your own children around town. The separateness. It comes up again and again, always trying to figure out who gets to do what with our daughter when. I�m angry about it. Im angry about a lot of things lately. All the things I feel my H has taken from me and from our daughter by breaking up our family this way. I think a big part of my detachment process needs to be dealing with these feelings on my one in therapy, and making sure not to let them leak over into my interactions with my H.

Having a rough and confusing morning. As I mentioned in previous post, my H and I had a conversation a few weeks back about needed increase in boundaries in our situation. For the most part it all sticking; I leave when H comes here on his scheduled days to see D3, or he takes her to dinner out or at his place. Another one was Saturday mornings; he comes to pick her up first thing, and for a long time they would make a pancake breakfast and we�d all eat together before they left. During our boundaries talk I brought this up, and said as sad as it is for D3, we have to stop doing that as it sends a confusing message to her, it isn�t sustainable and just doesn�t make sense any more. (What I didn�t say, but I�d quite relevant, is that it also makes me incredible sad to have a pretend family breakfast and then send them off for the day.) He agreed and we decided to stop doing it. That stuck for a couple of Saturdays. Then last Saturday he texted before he arrived to ask if it would be ok to mane pancakes with her. I said fine, thinking it would be an occasional one off and that he�d ask first. Then this morning he came in and she asked to make pancakes (as she always does) and he said sure and headed into my kitchen with her.
I have SO many feelings. 1) on some level it�s nice and familiar and safe feeling to have them doing that BUT 2) it isnt real and it is unfair to me and to D3 to keep digging the rut of that routine if he truly wants D.
3) I�m extremely sad, having had breakfast with my H and young child and then watching them pack up to go on a beach day to which I�m not invited.
4)I�m really annoyed because now I feel I have to bring it up and have that painful, scary conversation about these boundaries again, and I don�t think it�s fair that I�m in this position. I had that talk already. I thought this problem was taken care of.
There is no consistency with H. Nothing sticks. We have these conversations in which he states being 100% sure about moving forward with D and then nothing changes. We had what felt like this big, turning point conversation about boundaries in our relationship and then he just slips back into the old ways. And it�s all on ME to police it and maintain the lines for my sake and the sake of my daughter. I suppose it�s just more cake eating on his part? In taking the path of least resistance for himself regardless of what we decide is best for all? And now I have to decide whether to let it slide or to muster up and talk about it all over again.
I�d appreciate advice or input on this

As an outsider to your situation, but going through one of my own, I feel that he is cake eating and you are allowing it.

I know how hard it is to not let that happen, though. We just want our families back together

Originally Posted by HopeCA

Having a rough and confusing morning. As I mentioned in previous post, my H and I had a conversation a few weeks back about needed increase in boundaries in our situation. For the most part it all sticking; I leave when H comes here on his scheduled days to see D3, or he takes her to dinner out or at his place. Another one was Saturday mornings; he comes to pick her up first thing, and for a long time they would make a pancake breakfast and we�d all eat together before they left. During our boundaries talk I brought this up, and said as sad as it is for D3, we have to stop doing that as it sends a confusing message to her, it isn�t sustainable and just doesn�t make sense any more. (What I didn�t say, but I�d quite relevant, is that it also makes me incredible sad to have a pretend family breakfast and then send them off for the day.) He agreed and we decided to stop doing it. That stuck for a couple of Saturdays. Then last Saturday he texted before he arrived to ask if it would be ok to mane pancakes with her. I said fine, thinking it would be an occasional one off and that he�d ask first. Then this morning he came in and she asked to make pancakes (as she always does) and he said sure and headed into my kitchen with her.
I have SO many feelings. 1) on some level it�s nice and familiar and safe feeling to have them doing that BUT 2) it isnt real and it is unfair to me and to D3 to keep digging the rut of that routine if he truly wants D.
3) I�m extremely sad, having had breakfast with my H and young child and then watching them pack up to go on a beach day to which I�m not invited.
4)I�m really annoyed because now I feel I have to bring it up and have that painful, scary conversation about these boundaries again, and I don�t think it�s fair that I�m in this position. I had that talk already. I thought this problem was taken care of.
There is no consistency with H. Nothing sticks. We have these conversations in which he states being 100% sure about moving forward with D and then nothing changes. We had what felt like this big, turning point conversation about boundaries in our relationship and then he just slips back into the old ways. And it�s all on ME to police it and maintain the lines for my sake and the sake of my daughter. I suppose it�s just more cake eating on his part? In taking the path of least resistance for himself regardless of what we decide is best for all? And now I have to decide whether to let it slide or to muster up and talk about it all over again.
I�d appreciate advice or input on this

Thanks for that Hrt. I do feel like it�s cake eating on his part, and I wonder if others see it that way as well? I don�t know what else I can do about it, I suppose I need to have the boundaries conversation again. I sort of hate the idea of having to bring it up over and over again; it feels so negative and it takes so much out of me to have those talks. But I do want things to move out of this mode, whatever that may mean.

Hi Hope. I notice that you have boundary 'talks'. Could you just have boundaries for yourself and if he skirts the line, address is as it happens? But don't make it an R talk - for instance - since you said he could make pancakes - just let him and D have breakfast together and don't join in?

Maybe next time just say, this isn't a good time? Everything I've read says not to initiate the R talks, in my mind that would include boundaries. Actions speak louder than words. If you've come across the line, I can see where he thinks it's ok. I might be projecting here - if I allow my H to do one thing, he's in his underwear in my kitchen making himself at home the next tuesday!!

Just a thought. It also might seem confusing if you say he can do something and then have a big talk about it. Just going forward, remember that pancakes aren't something you feel comfortable doing at this time and head it off if you know it will be painful for you later.

That�s a really good point! I don�t need to make a big talk out of it, I can just take him aside briefly (or talk pit of ear shot of D3) and let him know when I feel he�s crossing boundaries. It�s so simple and yet somehow I hadn�t thought of it that way. It makes it simpler, takes some of the �R talk� weight out of it and makes it feel less heavy and negative. It also feels like a more detached way to approach it. That was super helpful, thank you 97!

Hi HopeCA,

I just read quite a bit of your sitch. I can certainly relate to your feelings around cake-eating vs preserving that small amount of quality time together (in some hope that it will trigger him wanting to put things back together and remind him of what he will be missing). I actually struggled with that one for a long time -- many months -- and I would allow H to have family dinners, holidays together and even tried to "save face" in front of the kids. It was especially hard for me tho because I knew about OW and that he was running right back to her when he left. I cringe now to think I allowed any of that. I feel I should have axed off all family time as soon as he moved out and see myself as a doormat. This is me looking back on it years later through a different lens. UGH. I was weak.

Why wasn't I stronger than that? I let him leave me for OW and then do whatever he wanted -- pretend to play family and then live a single life? Why didn't I simply let him be, go dark and hold my head up high? HIS LOSS, OH WELL! (or at least act that way)> He chose to have an A and then chose OW and left me, so he deserved NOTHING from me -- no time together, no attention, no sympathy -- I should have gone dark been indifferent around him and saved my emotional process for safe friends/support. Instead, I cycled between angry/lashing out and then became needy/desperate. I think the strong position would have been to simply let him go -- H doesn't get to control me or my emotions and quite frankly, he chose to break apart this family, so there is no more family time. Period. Oh how I wish I could go back and advise my freshly scorned self!

I also tend to take a much firmer stance than a lot of posters here. Partly because I think that is what works to "win" back a WH and also, more importantly, because I think it serves us better as the LBW and our own integrity. I can see your struggle with allowing the cake eating and I read it in your first posts. It doesn't feel good. I can read that you feel you are compromising yourself. Your husband walked out on you with a little girl, tells you he wants D, and now you guys are having pancake breakfasts on Saturdays as if everything is fine. Of course you are hurting and confused by this! Each time you are together, you feel hope. When he gives you that glance, you feel hope. When you see your D3s little face light up, you feel hope. Could it be that your not so much feeding him cake as you are giving yourself too much hope? Is this "hope" making it harder to let go?

So if you decide, no more cake eating, and you are ready to let it go, then do just that. You do not have to talk about it. You do not need anymore R talks. Boundaries do not need to be discussed or even stated. They are simply the actions you take moving forward. He shows up, you leave. They start making pancakes, you look confused and let him know you have other plans. Do not let his reactions or wanting to talk about it change your course. You are a strong woman and mother, you make your own choices about who makes pancakes in your kitchen and you have your own weekend plans.

DROP THE ROPE. TODAY. YOU CAN DO IT.

And while this may or may not help you -- I will say it -- and that is that men to not leave their Ws to be alone, they leave them for OW. That comes up in almost everyone sitch here and posters will deny, deny, and only to come back months or years later and say yes, there was OW. I know it makes people mad or irritated that I assume that, but it's true and it's a reality that deserves to fuel a little more anger and detachment than I see from the LBWs .... All Ms have issues. As are never justified.

Drop the rope, my dear, you deserve sooooo much more than his cr-p pancake breakfasts ....

Blu

HopeCA - just chiming in very quickly to say that in my experience, boundaries aren't really boundaries if you have to get someone's agreement for them, or need to discuss them, or need to bargain for them. You just live them. Boundaries are what happens through action, rather than conversation.

I've begged and pleaded and threatened and all sorts in an attempt to get H to stop verbally abusing me. It never worked. So now, I just don't talk to him. We exchange pleasantries at the door if he's in a civil mood, and if he isn't, I ignore him, make a fuss of Youngest, and close the door on him with relief. My boundary is 'I will not be in conversations where I am not spoken to with respect' and I am just living it, rather than trying to get him to participate in it.

Blu�Thank you!!! I LOVE reading your firm stance posts, and I�m really grateful that you took the time to give me one. I welcome it, always!!! I am in tears reading it, for so many different reasons. Yes, I absolutely have allowed H to eat cake because those moments fuel my hope. I can see that is why it scares me so much to set the very boundaries that I want, need and deserve. It�s why I�m so conflicted; I am angry and resentful of his cake eating, and terrified to truly put my foot down and stop allowing it. I am ready to drop the rope. I wish I could have done it sooner, but I wasn�t ready. I felt I needed to exhaust all other approaches, and I have done that. Thank you for that actionable advice: I don�t need to have boundary/R talks. I just need to live my boundaries. As for possible OW, I know that he was seeing someone shortly after he left, because he told me so. He swears up and down that he didn�t meet her until a few months after he left. I am probably as skeptical, assume-he�s- lying-always as a person can be (that�s actually one of the things H didn�t like about our marriage) and I did ultimately believe him. But I also know that it is entirely possible that it�s a lie. But, you are certainly right in that knowing that it is even a possibility that he had an affair or left me when he met someone else, I can most definitely use that to fuel my detachment fire. Blu, from my heart, thank you so much. This is what I�m here for, and you are more than welcome to come back and smack me over the head any time!!

Thank you as well Alison, living our boundaries, not stating them! I suddenly remember my therapist telling me long ago that boundaries are not set for others, you set them for yourself. Thank you both for reminding me!

My H will be here to pick up D3 in a few hours. I plan to be looking amazing, on my way out the door.

The less empowering result of this path of thinking is that I�m realizing I�ve been completely blocking out the possibility/reality that he very well may be seeing someone now. Now that I�m allowing those thoughts in I realize that I am not detached at all because I feel that old heart broken feeling I haven�t felt ( or let myself face reality enough to feel) in a long time. That thought sickens me and it breaks my heart all over again. I know I need to use this pain to fuel my resolve to detach, like Blu said. I wish I knew just how to do that.

Blu� This is going to sound weird, but this last exchange we had was an actual, cosmic/spiritual/psychic/very powerful thing. After I read what you wrote I experienced almost a film reel in fast forward through my head. I thought about what you said about the anger and resentment we LBS would feel if we accepted that our H was probably having an affair. Well, as it happens, the girl I thought was a fling my H had after he moved out, he�s been dating her for the last 10 months. I had to know, so I broke the rules and pressed a bit and now I know. I�m nearly shattered. But not quite. I was meant to have this information now. It�s what I needed. In some way you directed me to it and despite the immense pain I�m in right now, I�m truly grateful for it. It scares me to realize that I could allow myself to be in such denial. It blows my mind. All this time. All this time. All I want is the strength to drop this rope. I deserve so much better than this. I�ve been a fool, but I will not beat myself up for it. I just need to use it to drop. This. Rope. If you have anything more for me Blu, I�ll take anything. Thank you for guiding me to where I needed to be.

And the part I can not wrap my head around is why hasn�t this man divorced me?? Maybe this is just me fooling myself again, but I feel like if could understand that part than could let go faster. I feel like that this is the piece that has kept me hanging on, had kept me thinking �he must still XYZ�. Any insight?

HopeCA

There are so many reasons why this may be the case:

He doesn't want to stick the knife in
Doesn't want to do the hard work
Isn't yet getting pressure from the OW
The reality of D might shatter his lovely fantasy world
It doesn't make any difference to him - why bother
He wants to force you to be the 'bad guy' so he can tell everyone that it was your idea
He wants to see how things work out with OW before he gives you up totally - a firm plan B
etc

The point is; we don't know and it is likely he doesn't know. Does it matter? No. Because what you do is not going to be dependent on what he is or isn't doing.

This is one of the main purposes of GAL. To make you see that you are strong enough to say 'I matter' I am not an accessory or a safe option to his narcissism.

Let's be really honest with ourselves. He thought so little of you and your M that he found his sexual gratification elsewhere. His personal pleasure was the only important thing. That's narcissism in my book. So, leave him to it.

We hear a lot here about not being able to control other people you can only control yourself etc. This is usually aimed at the LBS who wants to fix things and make them see the error of their ways. But don't forget that it applies to you as well; ie you are letting him control you. Is that what you want? Is that what you, or anybody, deserves?

You are fooling yourself if you believe this is about you. It is all about him. But only if you let it.

I'm furious on your behalf. He sees someone else behind your back all this time and he comes into your house and makes PANCAKES?! What a shabby, shabby way to treat someone you're married to.
I think it's a good thing you know, it will give you the determination to let go of him. Hugs, that must have been a shock but denial is a very natural reaction. You're a good person, you expect other people to be good as well. He's not, he's rotten inside.

oh HopeCA - I am so sorry to hear that. It must be crushing. I can see that you're shocked and also perhaps not surprised - and I second everything Yorkie has said. He might have any number of reasons for what he's done and the way he's failed to communicate to you about it. Any number. And none of them make it okay, and none of them change what is the healthiest thing for you to do next.

Perhaps now is the time to let yourself be angry. It can be damaging and corrosive and ugly, but it can also put the fire in your belly needed to get yourself out of a bad situation, set some boundaries, and make some positive changes for yourself.

Thank you all. You are all completely right. I�m absolutely perplexed that I could have been so stupid and blind. I am many many things but nobody would ever call me naive. I feel like I�ve let myself down. All this time everything that was happening was against the backdrop of him being in a relationship with someone else. How could I not know. How could my insurance fail me so completely.
Hi could he get out of bed with someone else and then come into my house and make breakfast? How could he treat me and put perfect daughter like disposable waste? How can this be real. I want to be mad at him, and I am, but I�m much angrier at myself at the moment.

AND right before this revelation was made he invited me to go with him and our daughter to his best friends sons birthday party. Why in the name of god would he want me to be there? Is he trying to humiliate me?
I�m totally thrown.

(((Hope))) HUGS!!! BIG HUGS! I feel you, sister! I have been here before and it is soooo confusing and a whirlwind of emotions ... We are all here for you and in your corner. You are not alone. It hurts to know the truth, but I believe it will eventually set you free. I am glad that you now know. There are others here that do not know, or may never know, but I am certain there are OW in their sitches too. And it really does change how we want to handle things when we have been betrayed in this way . ....

I have so much I want to tell you, but I am having a busy morning at work and can't sit at the computer. I will do as soon as I can. Hopefully in a few hours or right after work.

In the mean time. Read my words, please! I have been in this same spot.

- This will not break you; you are a strong woman and mother. You are going to come out of this stronger than before with him or without him. I promise you!

- This is not your fault and you have not caused this. All Ms and Rs have issues that come and go. None of this ever justifies or excuses the choice he made to have an A and to leave his family. He is making bad choices.

- You do not have to make any sudden moves or changes. You may want to, but don't. Wake up every morning and read Sandi's rules and then read them at bed. Try your best to follow them -- trust those words -- they are your guide. They will preserve your integrity.

- Start tip toeing back from him and remove yourself. LESS you do or say is MORE. Do not share your thoughts, feelings or plans with him. Keep that ALL safe to your vest. Share only with your close and very trusted IC, friends and family. If he tries to talk, explain or push you -- mostly listen and say very little.

- If you are in a corner and are forced to talk, you can say. "I have a lot to think about right now." "I need to focus on what is best for me and D3 right now." "I am not ready to talk about this right now." Poker face. EXIT convo. It is better that you take a giant step back from him now. You can also have all communications be in email about D and finances.

- I promise things will not stay this way.

- It hurts like h3ll. The worst pain. Cry, scream, yell. Let is out. Only with your safe people.

- Then you allow a break from the pain. You can stick it in a jar and shove it in the back of the cupboard and come back to it. Then, you take care of you.

- Most important now. SELF CARE. GAL and do what you need to do to love yourself and cherish yourself right now. No one else can heal this but you. Start today. Learning to love and heal yourself is the greatest silver linining in this cr-p situation.

Blu

There�s lots I want to say to you but either other people have said it better or I cannot express it properly. Your words and kindness here and HONESTY has shown what a great person you are . The pain of your thoughts won�t last forever and soon this will be behind you . BIG MAN hugs from me

Thank you so much for this Blu. Knowing you have been just where I am now and reading your words is really helpful to me. I was feeling strong and suddenly I feel adrift in a sea of pain. But your advice and assurance is something to hang on to and stay afloat. I made an emergency appointment with my IC. I�m going to follow your advice, and I look forward to hearing what else you have to say! Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Thank you so much Tryhard. That really means a lot to me. I appreciate the recognition and support so much.

(((Hope))) You give me too much credit, I promise! I only know what I went through and I read here. Sadly, there are so many commonalities: I can read a LBW thread and just know what her H is up to, and I am usually right :-(

How are you today? How are you feeling and what is changing for you now? ... I hope the LBWs are reading along. I want them to see that when you learn that your H not only left you --but leaves you for OW -- it does change things. The betrayal of a man taking our love and giving it to another cuts deep, and especially when we are left at home with THEIR children ....

He might start to do the distancer/pursuer dance as he feels you pulling back. Just continue on your own path forward! Only show him your strong self. Let him be and he will fall on his own in one way or another, and the A rarely works out. In time, this will fall apart. One day, he will see things more clearly. It might be many months, or even years, but the truth (his and yours) will shine through. ... You don't actually want THIS man right here, even if it doesn't feel that way ..

What else can I say to you? It just svcks. The worst pain! I don't even know how I got through it. But the thing is -- I did. In fact, when I forced myself to GAL, I did make some nice and comforting memories in a terrible time. I am now grateful for those -- and I learned who my true friends are. We had some awesome road trips! I have amazing women in my life that stand by me.

This might not matter to you right now, but I will say it anyways because I really mean it. If you can trust that things will be okay eventually (with or without him), if you can learn to be independent and strong during this craziness, and if you can give yourself the love/care/attention you deserve, then one day, you might be able to say that all of this pain was worth it. I am getting there, Hope. I never thought I would. This has nothing to do with my H coming back. He could come/go tomorrow, and I know I would be just fine. But the strength, resolve, and integrity I have gained in fighting my way out of this h3ll hole, is something that no one can take away from me. Ever. ... I like myself more now because of it.

On another note, without sharing too much, maybe a hint, where about/approx are you? I have a feeling we are close.

Blu

Hope I'm so sorry. Everything Blu wrote is exactly on point. I'm glad you are sharing here and that Blu is too. You can see the other side of the mountain from someone who climbed over. She got through this, and so will you, and by doing so in the way you are will make you stronger.
I'm praying for you, for strength and peace.

Thank you both very much. I really do feel so supported when I read these messages, it�s a gift.

Blu�today was interesting. I was a mess this morning, I could hardly control the tears. I barely slept last night despite medicating myself. Thankfully my D3 was signed up for day camp today. I�m a stay at home mom, and I so needed that tome alone to be sad and not have to hold it together for her. I spoke on the phone with my closest friend who had been amazing throughout my sitch. I also managed to get in to see my IC who is amazing, and I felt a bit better after that. Tomorrow morning D3 and I are going away for the weekend with one of my best friends and her husband and kids. Prior to yesterday I was super excited about it. Last night as I lay awake crying I was dreading it. At this point I�m really looking forward to getting away with people who truly love me and my daughter and just have some fun. My H came this evening to be with D3. I read and re-read your messages before he came Blu, and re read Sandis rules. I also put ice packs on my swollen puffy eyes, because I don�t feel powerful when I know I look like I�ve been crying.

When he showed up I focused on remaining cordial but distant. I struggle with this part of things; I have always been a person who can not hide my feelings. They are just written on my face. I also struggle to find a mid point between friendly and straight up cold. I did my best but didn�t worry too much about it. I was probably more distant than cordial, and that�s ok. Mainly I did not want him thinking I was sad and crying all day. He took D3 out to dinner and I packed for tomorrow. He was trying to make small talk and inside jokes with me. I was not responsive. He left after D3 went to bed, and I feel exhausted, drained, sad and a bit empowered because I did my best to take control of my feelings and my interaction with my H. If I�m honest I�m also feeling a bit disgusted. Who the f*** is this person?

I believe what you say about the possibility that this all may feel worthwhile someday, regardless of my H. My IC told me today that she sees that I have truly transformed through all of this, and that she can see that I will continue to do so. I know I�m a better person now than I was a year ago, I can feel it. And I am trying to believe that someday I will be able to really enjoy that fact. As night is falling though, I feel the pain and the heartbreak and the horrible, horrible thoughts entering my mind. I find dusk to be the worst time of day. My daughter is in bed and it�s just very sad and lonely right now. I�m really, really grateful for the support I�m finding from being on this board.

Blu, I�m in Northern California, in the San Francisco Bay Area. I�m very curious what tips you off that we might be close?

Actually, I do not recall what even tipped me off -- perhaps an intuition as I read your posts and the CA in your name -- but I was indeed correct :-)

I am sorry you are struggling. I also wear my heart on my sleeve and "acting" detached around my H after BD felt impossible most days. Perhaps the best thing for you now is limiting your arrangements so you don't have to cross paths. Can you make it so you only see him when you absolutely have to? Your D3 will adjust. Can you only communicate in email? I think both of those things will help start your healing process. The less you have to see him or hear from him the better.

You might feel worse before you start feeling better. This is really hard news to accept. Just allow your feelings and process them. Continue the self care and GAL. Give yourself permission to also have fun and enjoy moments. It helps. I promise in time things will get improve.

Blu

Have some hugs for the lonely dusks. It's difficult to not think about the future but to also trust that you will be ok eventually no matter what. Holding those two things side by side is hard! And you have to believe that things will be ok in the end, even though you don't know what that might look like. I've had those feelings a few times and they were comforting.
For a month after BD when I couldn't sleep I did a yoga video every night before bed, it helped me a lot though I stopped doing it for some reason. Maybe you could try this when the dusks get lonely?

Originally Posted by "HopeCA"

Thank you both very much. I really do feel so supported when I read these messages, it�s a gift.

Awww, I feel your pain. I am 30 minutes away. There are AMAZING support groups near you--if you check MEETUP for BAY AREA SINGLE PARENTS groups. I lead the largest one. Shhh! What I've shared here is very personal, but there are SINGLE PARENTS with kids who would be in AWE of how hard you are trying to make this work. Sorry the outcome is not what your might hope from all your efforts...

I've got a list on my phone of books I want to read, films I want to watch, things I want to do or arrange or find out about. And in the evenings, once the kids are finally in bed, if I happen to be feeling bored or lonely, I get out that list and see if I can treat myself to some of it. It really helps. Last night I researched day spas in my area for a trip in the summer. Tonight I have a movie to watch, and I'm going to write a few old-fashioned letters to friends that I don't see as often as I would like. It helps me to have that ready on my phone, so I can add to it during the day when ideas occur to me, and don't have to wrack my brains for something to do with myself when I am feeling exhausted and low.

Well, I�ve had a very strange last few days. I feel like the timing of the events is a clear message from the universe, and I�m experiencing a major shift. My daughter and I went away for the weekend with one of my best friends and her husband and kids, as well as a bunch of other families they are friends with. The kids played and I got hang with the adults who were all incredibly lovely. I watched these couples and the way they went about their time, and I watched these husbands and fathers and was just struck incredibly hard with the realization that I am in a place now where I have the opportunity to have what they have. There was one man there on his own; he is married but his wife had to work and couldn�t come. He was very much someone I would have been very interested in had he not been married. He was just lovely and warm and solid seeming. He had lovely things to say about his wife and he was effortlessly amazing and helpful with all the kids (including mine) even though none of them were his. We talked a lot, and he asked me lots of questions about what had happened to my marriage. There were lots of times during the weekend at which all the dads were taking over with the kids so the moms could relax. Most of those times this man swept in and watched my daughter so I could relax with the other moms (mine was the youngest child there and I was the only one with out a partner to hep me, so this was a gift. And it made me realize that I want that for myself, and that my current husband will never be the kind of partner I want. This man (in the most appropriate, married man way) felt compelled to have a heart to heart with me about what he sees in me as a person and as a mom. It was incredibly validating. I know it seems crazy, but it feels like it was the exact push forward that I�ve been waiting for. I think I�d gotten myself feeling so deeply that I am damaged goods with a ton of baggage that nobody would want. I see the opposite now. The man I married is not worthy of what I have to offer. Plain and simple. I think that what I thought was a longing for him all this time was actually plain, simple loneliness. All of this being on the heels of finding out that my husband did not take a single second of this past year to figure anything out or do any work on himself in any way, and instead he ran into the arms of the first woman he could find. All these things combined at just the right time.

This small, innocent bit of attention, support and validation from a lovely man made me realize that I know the kind of partner that I want, and my husband is not it. I�ve been a bit of a mess ever since, because I am realizing how lonely I�ve been for so, so long. And because I�m realizing that I don�t actually miss my husband that much. That he is not the kind of partner that I want. I am ready to get a divorce and move forward, to free up my heart and energy for someone who deserves it. I�m ready to be free.

YES! Hold onto that, hope! You will waver, your H might come crawling back offering you crumbs and you might weaken and think about taking him back. But you definitely do deserve so much better than this pancake-making cheater. I identify with the loneliness, I was lonely when H lived here, because he spent years working longer and longer hours and giving his family less time and attention and love and retreating from us. It was lonely and I was lonely. And now we are confronted with being properly alone it brings attention to our loneliness, but it was there all along because our Hs were not meeting our needs. Good men are out there. Not perfect men, but good enough men. Right now our Hs are not good enough for us. There's a possibility if they put in the hard work that that could change, but we have to drop the rope and live our lives as if they won't.
You are an amazing mum, a strong woman, and a good person. You're right, your H does not deserve your love xx

Thank you Dilly!! It�s so interesting, it feels like I legitimately didn�t realize how lonely I�ve been until now, and it�s hitting me hard. BUT, it does not feel like missing my husband. It feels like pure loneliness, and missing the affection and intimacy and companionship of being with someone. It�s been over a year since I�ve had ANY part of that (since H moved out) , and much longer than that with not a whole lot more (while we were still together). I guess getting a tiny taste of attention from a man I found attractive really brought it to my attention.

I know, as you say, that some of the husbands we discuss here have the capability and desire to do the hard work deep down. I believe with every ounce of myself that mine does not. And I think I�ve known that for a long, long time. This weekend I realized that a big part of why I�ve hung on is because of my fear that it�s not possible for someone else to love me and my daughter as a package deal. I saw a glimpse of the possibility of that, I saw us through the eyes of other people, and saw that I am not damaged goods. The right man for me will love my daughter as much as I do. I won�t settle for anything less. But at least I know that it�s possible.
I�m feeling a bit heartbroken. But not over my husband. It�s the loneliness, and the fact that I spent a year of my life waiting for someone who didn�t deserve it. And if I�m honest, it�s a bit that I met someone who saw me the way I want to be seen, right at the moment I became ready to meet someone, but he isn�t available.
I want to be open and available to meet someone if they come along. But I want to be careful not to transfer my focus from my H to trying to find someone new. I want to remain focused on my daughter, and myself and making our life great again.

You're doing so well, Hope. That loneliness is hard - I feel it too - but the reality for lots of us is that we were very lonely in our marriages too, for a long time, and going backwards isn't going to make us feel any better. It seems that having that innocent connection with someone else has helped you see yourself through someone else's eyes - as a young and vibrant woman with plenty to offer to the right person, when the right time comes. I'm not there myself yet, but I am certainly seeing my H through healthier and clearer eyes, and that's been an incredible amount of help in getting me to detach and move on. I don't particularly want to find someone new either!

I haven�t been on this board for quite some time. It�s been a roller coaster this month.
A couple of days after my last post, H and I got into a small argument after we put D3 to bed. He was doing his thing in which he knows he being an obstinate jerk, and throws a tantrum when I call him on it. His behavior was so ridiculous I calmly asked him to leave. When he was gone I texted him that I couldn�t deal with that kind of stuff from him anymore, and that we need to be able to have reasonable conversations. He texted back �I�m a piece of [censored] ok? You should be thanking me for leaving�. I didn�t respond. 3 days later, I was served with divorce papers.
The papers had been filed a month before he served me.

The first week or two I was fine. I was sad, but I was ready and I felt strong and I even felt somewhat relieved. Since then I had to file my response to his filing (within 30 days in CA) and I�ve felt a major shift backwards since then. It obviously made it feel very real, and Ive found myself considering starting to try DB strategies again. I�m embarrassed to even be saying that. I�m not na�ve enough to have thought that these types of emotions wouldn�t come up again. I can say that I have to completely gone backwards; my feelings about H and my marriage are much more conflicted, the rose colored glasses are off, and I am definitely in a much stronger place then I was a few months ago. But I am struggling. I am having a very hard time accepting the idea of ending my marriage without my H having put in any effort to see if it could be saved first. It goes against all my principles. I know I can�t control him and he is not the same kind of person as me. I�m also having a lot of anxiety and general upset feeling like I pushed him to file. I have to be fair with myself, it was a year of limbo and his saying he had no desire to reconcile, but also taking no action, then finding out he�d been dating someone since 2 months after he left. I felt I�d waited long enough and he needed to take action, so I pushed. I can�t help but feel something like regret about that now.
I�m feeling heartbroken nonetheless, and I can�t help but be drawn to the idea of �trying� again. Please help!

Ugh. I feel like I�ve gone so far backwards. But yet I also feel like I want to DB again, even though divorce papers have been filed. I guess I feel like I need to keep fighting for my family despite all my hurt. I just don�t know. I�m feeling confused, sad and lost.

I�ve been pondering starting to DB again, and have gone back and forth a lot. One thing that is nagging me is the fact that it feels like when I really dropped the rope (and I really did, for a period of time there) and subsequently told my husband that if he wants a divorce then he should hurry up and do it (regrettably I said this in the heat of a moment, and not in a DB manner at all) a month or so later, that�s exactly what he did. Perhaps that should be a clear sign that my DBing efforts had no effect on my marriage or on my H. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Hope... if your H has decided he wants to end the marriage, there is nothing you can do about it. Your H didn�t file because of anything you said or did not say. He had already made up his mind. Also... if you had truly dropped the rope, you would not have told him to hurry up in the heat of the moment because your H would not affect you that way emotionally. When you drop the rope, you let the other person go. Really let them go. DBing is not about strategizing to get your H back... if is for you to get you back.

My H made no effort to save our marriage either. He lied, ran away and created and then hung onto every possible resentment he could to justify his actions...and then he found OW so he would have a soft place to land. And THEN I found out about it. There was NOTHING I could do about any of it except pick myself up, see my marriage and my H for what it/he was/is and start to build a new life for myself and my kids. It wasn�t what I wanted and it wasn�t what I had planned but it is what I have and I am okay. I KNOW how much it hurts. I promise you...the hurt will fade with time.

(((HUGS)))

Thank you for responding. I guess I know you�re right. And you make a very good point about what I thought was me being detached. I was angry and I felt stronger for a while there, but I was clearly not detached and was still holding the rope. And I still am. I do wonder why after a whole year of not filing he finally did only after I pushed him to....
And now he is cycling through treating me like dirt and gaslighting me to being strangely warm and almost affectionate at times. And I don�t feel strong right now. Not at all. I should be DBing again. So that I will get where I need to be emotionally and stop focusing on him.
Even if just for my own sake, how should I act toward him? My DBing brain tells me I need to be lovingly detached. My natural default at this point is cold and distant. I feel lost, like I�m right back at the beginning and I don�t know what to do.

Just journaling...H just came to pick up D4. I�m trying to transition out of my recent cold/angry manner toward him. It�s hard in practice, but also because I can�t decide if it�s right for me. Though when I think about it, I realize the only reason cold/angry feels �right� is because I worry that if I�m not that I�m letting him off the hook somehow. And that�s not being detached. If I were detached there would be no hook to keep him on. So I think I might have answered this question as I posted about it here, haha. I should fake kind detachment until it becomes real...I think?
THIS IS HARD.
I�ve done a bit of reading on Nice Guy Syndrome as well as on Negative Sentiment Overdrive (if I�m remembering it correctly). Both are most definitely at play in this situation. That may or may not matter at all, but there is something comforting about seeing what you are experiencing written out and identified. And something heart breaking about it as well. It makes it seem more solvable, �if only...� which is not a helpful line of thinking. Detach detach detach detach.

Hope, I'm wondering if you are grieving........or maybe you are fighting the process of grieving.

How much did finding out about this woman he has dated, cause this conflict in considering whether or not to DB and fight for the M?

I don't mean to sound judgmental, and I hope I can word my question right. Is it the desire to be a whole family for your daughter that drives this urge to continue the fight...........or is it b/c you love him so strongly?

Originally Posted by HopeCA

I�ve done a bit of reading on Nice Guy Syndrome as well as on Negative Sentiment Overdrive (if I�m remembering it correctly). Both are most definitely at play in this situation. That may or may not matter at all, but there is something comforting about seeing what you are experiencing written out and identified. And something heart breaking about it as well. It makes it seem more solvable, �if only...� which is not a helpful line of thinking. Detach detach detach detach.

Hope -

Regarding how to act towards him, I like the "friendly neighbor" analogy, it makes things simple. Treat him like a neighbor. Cordial, and that's about it. No emotional attachment. Easier said than done, I know...

Regarding feeling lost and confused: I think there is a misconception in DB that feeling the desire to be cold or distant or angry is somehow wrong or bad, that you are "doing it wrong." All it means is that you have something going on emotionally that suggests you are still holding onto the rope. I don't think that means you should have an aversion to those feelings or push them away. What helps me with anger is to just sit with it. Don't think about it, but also don't push it away. Meditation helps a lot. It doesn't make sense to me rationally, but it works for me. I also recognize more quickly when I am reacting on pure emotion, it helps the DB process a lot.

Regarding NGS (I believe you are saying your H is a NG...) - as a recovering NG I can tell you that it is unlikely he will change without hitting some sort of rock bottom. I discovered NGS 2 years ago when trying to figure out how to resolve some dead bedroom issues with my W, and recognizing I needed to change. Great, right? Nope. It didn't stick. I thought I understood covert contracts, etc., but the lessons were not sewn into the fabric of my being. I did not do the hard work. I took it for granted. It took my W essentially leaving for me to pull my sh*t together. It took a rock bottom.

I'm glad NGS helps you to understand, but I suggest you definitely drop the hope that NGS is "solvable."

Thank you both so much for your responses.

Sandi�I do think I have been grieving actively this year. It�s possible that I�ve recently started to fight that process more. I�ve been in IC since H left, and I remember telling her directly that I sometimes worried that I was in denial/not grieving properly because my hope and hanging on instinct would pop up so much. She helped me see that my hope and denial were parts of my grief, and that when the waves of heartbreak got to be too much I latched on to them like a life raft so I could catch a breath. She assured me that she had no doubt that I was actively grieving, so I took her word for it. All that said, I may be resisting it currently? It�s food for thought!

Finding out that he is/was dating the same woman this whole time was actually what pushed me over the line into truly feeling done with him and with the MR. That was the point at which I honestly *thought* I had dropped the rope, as it was the first time I felt ready to accept D and move forward. It felt like a bucket of ice water over my head�it completely changed the context of everything that happened over the past year, and I felt DONE. I did not think for a second that I would consider fighting for my MR again. That was just before July 4th. In the last week or two I�ve started to feel conflicted about whether to fight for it again or not.

Your last question is a good one, and not a super easy one to answer. I�ve asked myself many times, and sometimes I�m not sure. What I do know for sure is that I believe that it is 100% possible that if my H were to decide he wanted to meet me half way and do his part that I COULD be totally in love with him again, because my love has been buried under so much pain and anger distrust, and that feels like enough to fight for...?
I don�t feel at all judged by your questions, I welcome them and any and all thoughts you have!

Unchien�you are right that my default cold and distant mode contributes to my confusion. There�s a strong part of me that feels like, given what has transpired recently, that is what he truly deserves from me. I know the feelings are valid, but I�m pretty sure that feeling like he deserves that from me doesn�t align with DB. But again, you�re right�it means I haven�t dropped the rope. I read about your meditation on your thread or someone else�s, and I KNOW I need to try it.

Yes I believe my H is a major NG. And I know that only he can do anything about it. When I read what you said, my thought was �you�d think facing divorce and losing your family would be a rock bottom, even if it was your choice�. But of course, that isn�t how that works. And he put a layer of leaves down by bringing OW into this, so his fall to rock bottom would be just cushioned enough not to hurt too badly. I�m just not sure what else a rock bottom could look like for him.

Originally Posted by HopeCA

Unchien�you are right that my default cold and distant mode contributes to my confusion. There�s a strong part of me that feels like, given what has transpired recently, that is what he truly deserves from me. I know the feelings are valid, but I�m pretty sure that feeling like he deserves that from me doesn�t align with DB. But again, you�re right�it means I haven�t dropped the rope. I read about your meditation on your thread or someone else�s, and I KNOW I need to try it.

Hope - Yes, I have become a meditation fanatic in the last month or so. So you may have read about it on my thread.

I won't go on and on about meditation, other than I strongly believe in the value of guided meditations through an app (rather than sitting quiet for 10 minutes focusing on the breath). I just finished one tonight on emotional awareness that really helped me achieve some calmness (frustration is dominant lately for me).

DB will point you towards the end goal of detachment. But I think one can end up trying too hard to "achieve" detachment. For instance, I know I'm not supposed to be frustrated right now. But I am. So rather than push it away because DB says I need to detach, I'm just sitting with it, being aware of it, noticing how it feels. Somehow, this helps. I don't know why, but it does. I am a rational, logical person, and none of this makes any sense.

Originally Posted by HopeCA

Yes I believe my H is a major NG. And I know that only he can do anything about it. When I read what you said, my thought was �you�d think facing divorce and losing your family would be a rock bottom, even if it was your choice�. But, of course, that isn�t how that works. And he put a layer of leaves down by bringing OW into this, so his fall to rock bottom would be just cushioned enough not to hurt too badly. I�m just not sure what else a rock bottom could look like for him.

Maybe "rock bottom" was a poor choice of words.

What I meant to imply was that it takes A LOT for people to make true meaningful change. You may think divorce and losing his family is enough... it probably is not.

I did not really address my NGS until I truly understood how destructive it was to my life. It was not as simple as realizing I was losing my family or my W. It was realizing that if I did not address my issues, I was potentially going to fall into a depressive spiral and be a miserable, unhappy, lonely person for the rest of my life. It felt like life or death. I had panic attacks, I couldn't function at work, I was crying when I drove to work and when I drove home every day. I was a complete wreck. I didn't tell any friends for a month. I felt alone, scared, sometimes paranoid.

I had gone to IC for years before this. I had run across NGS 2 years ago. I went through estrangement with my parents. NONE of those things helped me work on my issues.

In any case, true change takes a lot. Think about what you have had to go through in order to change yourself.

Finally I caution you not to spend too much energy worrying about whether your H has NGS. That's his problem, not yours, and the more you worry about his problems, the harder it will be to detach. I like to think of it as the difference between detached curiosity (good) vs. diagnosis and frustration (bad). "How strange, H has twisted the past yet again. Hmmm... I'm going to go GAL it up right now."

Yes, various ICs have recommended meditation to me over the years. Though I�m also a very logical, analytical person, I�m also open to almost anything that will help me be a better version of myself, for me and for my daughter. I�m committing to trying an app, because I need guided sessions. I can NOT focus or quiet my own mind effectively at this point.

It�s really interesting to read what you say about your experience with emotional spiraling with NGS. A lot of what you list here, I�ve watched my H experience on and off over the years. Of course, in his mind, all the depression and anxiety and misery and hiding it from his friends�well that�s all my fault. Of course. You should be proud of yourself for being capable of introspection to recognize what you were dealing with. And you are right; there is no reason for me to focus on this in regards to my H at all. It will get me nowhere.
Thank you for all of this!

A true NG would believe everything was his own fault. He may not give off that appearance to others. He will do things to hide his toxic shame about this.

I use 10% happier. I am fortunate to get it free through work, don�t know the cost.

Oh yes, I believe with complete certainty that my H is wracked with a huge amount of shame, and it is intolerable to him. His line is that it�s all my fault, but his shame is extremely obvious. In dark moments he�ll say things like �I�m a piece of s*** and you should be thanking me for leaving�

Thank you for the app tip! I�ll check it out!

Ah yes.... shame. The timeless way to absolve oneself of responsibility.

�I�m a piece of s$&@� = it�s fundamental to my character = I feel really guilty and awful but there is nothing I can do.

Getting D papers really helped me with detaching. I could never really detach while I still had hope, and for me, getting those papers killed my hope. It allowed me to move on. It freed me up to doing some actions that hurt the chance of R, but would help me going forward. As far as how to act, I've gone as dark as possible with kids. Your mood doesn't matter nearly as much when all you say is "Hi. Ok. Bye"

Unchien-you�re right! I actually never thought about those �I�m a piece of s***� comments that way before. He�s made them several times over the years (notably at times when he�s acted horrifically and I�ve managed to keep my cool) and I�ve always thought of them as brief moments of accountability. But they really aren�t. They are the opposite, a total cop out. UGH

Hi Sunset� I just read your entire thread, and it honestly took my breath away. I�m in awe of your strength. Its so interesting�I find myself really wishing I had something to offer you by way of support. But I�ve been on this board for a lot longer than you, and I feel like you�re leaps and bounds ahead of me in your progress. That could be for a multitude of reasons, but I�m impressed. Thanks for replying here, I�ll write more on your thread

Hope -

Exactly. I don't think your H is doing this intentionally, but as long as he thinks this way he will never be able to address his issues.

I know you feel some anger towards your H about this. It's really common to think "Why won't person X just change?" I hope you can view his behavior not as a cop-out, but just as an issue that he has not yet fully recognized is blocking him from becoming a healthier person. That way, HIS problem is not affecting YOUR emotions, and you can let go of some of the anger.

I'm suggesting more of an empathic stance, recognizing his toxic shame prevents him from having healthy relationships. Perhaps it will help you heal somewhat. Maybe he will have an aha moment and make changes. It's really not your problem.

As a side note, recognizing the difference between shame and remorse is really helpful when dealing with apologies (and also has taught me how to be much more honest and authentic with other people when apologizing to them). One of the other components of someone really owning up to their behavior is if they ask YOU how you are feeling about their transgression. "I'm really sorry I hurt you, I imagine you are kind of angry at me. Are you willing to share more about your feelings?"

Hope... a couple of things stood out for me in the recent posts. The first is what you referred to as your H putting a layer of leaves (OW) to cushion his fall to rock bottom. That is EXACTLY what my XH did. He used her to avoid facing himself and he is still doing it only he thinks it is true love. It isn�t. Not sure my XH is capable of really loving someone else as he does not love himself. He loves her because he gets to be whoever he wants to be in her presence and he has convinced himself that he is a new man. He is not. He is the same person who is trying to take a short cut to healing. It will only work for so long. You can�t divorce yourself. The second thing is your H�s �I�m a piece of sh*t� comments. My XH made many of those to me but they did not come from a place of remorse. You are correct, I think. Your H�s comments are not about being accountable but more about making excuses and claiming helplessness over his own behaviour. Sad and very �victim-like�. You deserve better. xo

U�I wish I could say that I�ve even received a shame based apology from him, let alone a truly remorseful one. I could count on one hand the amount of apologies I�ve received from him in the 9 years we�ve been together. Almost all of them were rescinded shortly after delivery. He believes that he is just an easy going guy and that I�m a monster who ruined his left. He has zero accountability.

I�m feeling really emotional and angry today. I�m feeling really resentful that he tried to act like we are just two friends and that everything is ok. It hurts and it makes me really mad. The last time we argued, my H tried to argue with me about how long we�ve been together, how long we were engaged before we got married...as if I don�t know?! It feels like he is trying to minimize our marriage and our life together to assuage his guilt and make it all seem disposable. It�s so insulting. And then he wants to be all �how was your day? It�s good to see you� when he picks up D3.
It makes it really hard (impossible so far) to behave the way I would like to in his presence. And then I feel mad at myself.

Originally Posted by HopeCA

U�I wish I could say that I�ve even received a shame based apology from him, let alone a truly remorseful one. I could count on one hand the amount of apologies I�ve received from him in the 9 years we�ve been together. Almost all of them were rescinded shortly after delivery. He believes that he is just an easy going guy and that I�m a monster who ruined his left. He has zero accountability.

Shame is really powerful. Your H may really believe he is easy-going and you are a monster... OR... those may simply be coping mechanisms that he has developed to try to handle his shame. He may not even be aware of the shame. Either way, if he cannot get over his shame and progress towards regret and remorse, he will be stuck in his ways. Not your problem.

Originally Posted by HopeCA

The last time we argued, my H tried to argue with me about how long we�ve been together, how long we were engaged before we got married...as if I don�t know?! It feels like he is trying to minimize our marriage and our life together to assuage his guilt and make it all seem disposable. It�s so insulting. And then he wants to be all �how was your day? It�s good to see you� when he picks up D3.
It makes it really hard (impossible so far) to behave the way I would like to in his presence. And then I feel mad at myself.

I hear you struggling with anger and being frustrated at yourself about having your emotions tethered to your H.

He could say the sky is red. Would that upset you?

This is really really really hard. But all these arguments and situations where you feel insulted are baiting you into emotional traps. Forget what he thinks. It doesn't matter. Feel secure in your own reality. You know how long you were married. Who cares if he claims something else? He could say 2+2=5.

This comes down to Detachment. You can know all the basic scripts and how to behave, but the actual process of emotionally detaching takes time and hard work. Your emotions are signals that you are still quite attached. You are being tossed around by the waves -- find your anchor.

I'm not suggesting you ignore your anger or frustration. In fact I think you should work on regaining control of those feelings, rather than having the sense that your anger or frustration are being driven by your H. These are your feelings to own. The more self-differentiated you are, the more you will be able to experience a full set of emotions without feeling pulled around by outside forces.

You have no choice but to move through this emotional minefield. You can either run wildly with a blindfold on and hope you get through unscathed, or you can walk calmly and be fully aware of all the mines surrounding you. Work on that awareness and calmness. The mines are still there, but you don't have to step on them, and you don't have to rush.

Sorry if this came across as harsh... As with any anonymous internet post, I advise you take what you want from it and ignore the rest =)

I know everything you�re saying is right. Detachment is (clearly) by far my biggest struggle in this. I thought I was further along in the detachment process that I am, a lot further. I wonder if following Sandis rules in an attempt to �fake it til I make it� would help it along?

The rules and FITYMI are great. They are concrete things to do amid the swirl of emotions.

Long-term it's all about getting a handle on our own emotions. Then detachment and the DB rules should come naturally (for the most part).

Example:

Old way: I just got triggered, my anxiety and anger are at 8/10. I would like to reduce them to a 5/10.

New way: I just got triggered, my anxiety and anger are at 8/10. That means I'm going to feel my heartbeat racing, blood rush to my head, and I'll get fidgety. It will subside at some point.

Does that make sense? I struggle to explain what I am trying to say.

Yes, I completely understand. It�s about mindfulness and noticing the signs of feeling anxious and triggered. Allowing them to exist without fighting them and without giving in to them. My therapist talks to me about this a lot. I�m learning, but slowly.

One positive is that you�ll get plenty of practice!

Hang in there and have compassion for yourself. There are no mistakes, there are only learning opportunities.

Thank you so much. It�s been a really hard, lonely, sad day for me, and your words have helped a bit.

You're welcome, I'm glad if it helped at all. Thank you for sharing your story -- I get as much out of reading and responding to other people's threads as I do from my own thread.

One other thing that's helped me: Anger, frustration, anxiety, sadness, loneliness, melancholy, depression -- I used to think of these as negative emotions. Bad emotions! Shoo! Go away! Try to get back to a happy place. That struggle just never led anywhere useful.

They are difficult emotions, but they are just emotions.

I would like to get to a place where I look at these experiences as gifts. "I am experiencing the full emotional spectrum of what life has to offer." I would be lying if I said I am at that place.

I set the goal to try to start to get to a place of feeling lovingly detached toward H when he came to get D4 this afternoon. I�m struggling quite a bit with detachment these days, so I re-read some of DR, as well as the words of you fine people, and decided that I am capable of this, and that fake it til I make it is going to have to be my initial jumping off point. I�ve thought a lot about why I struggle so much with the idea of giving H more than he deserved from me right now (which is why it�s hard for me not to be cold toward him) It�s multi faceted, some of it very obvious/universal and some more convoluted/specific to me. Ive always been triggered by any kind of perceived rejection by loved ones, and that is (obviously) at its height right now. Unfortunately, I�ve let that get in the way of my goals for my M. So it behooves me, for personal growth as well as for any chance there might be to rebuild my M, to strengthen my ability to absorb rejection triggers and not react to them in ways I will always regret later. I think that if I focus there in my interactions with my H, I will feel better about myself, and I will treat him more kindly as a natural side effect. At the end of the day, I want to be able to rise above my old self and treat him well despite the fact that he has not treated me well. I want that to be on the list of things I can tell my daughter I strived for when she is grown. And yes, I want to be able to know in my heart that I actually did what I could for this marriage. I know I can only do that if I let go of my attachments to all the things he may or may not do or say.
I felt very triggered a couple of times this evening, and I�m pretty proud of my ability to breathe deep and not react. It�s a baby step for me.

Originally Posted by HopeCA

I felt very triggered a couple of times this evening, and I�m pretty proud of my ability to breathe deep and not react. It�s a baby step for me.

Awesome post! You�ll be walking soon!

I�m having a particularly hard day. Really missing the family feeling, when H and D4 and I used to get up on weekends and figure out what we wanted to do and go on adventures. Yes, I still can and do do this with D4, but right now I really miss when it was the 3 of us.

As a result, I�m really struggling (again) with the feeling of regret about the degree to which I may have pushed H to file the D papers. It had been a year and I was fed up with him continuing to threaten it and not doing it. I guess I hit my patience limit in that moment. But now I question why I couldn�t have just continued to be patient, and wishing I had. I do not want D, so I should not have pushed it. It�s confusing, because I really did feel that way at that point, and now I get a feeling of dread to think that maybe things would be different had I not pushed it.
I know there�s nothing I can do about it now but detach and work on myself, but this is really bothering me. Was I just being impatient and blew it? Or was I doing what needed to be done? I�m jus not sure anymore.

No real updates, I�m just really struggling and feeling isolated, so I came here.
I got some advice here on my concerns about having pushed my H to file (thanks Blu and DV6) so I�m deciding to let go of the concern that I pushed him to do something he wasn�t already going to do.
I�ve been in a bad place the last couple of days. I�ve been crying a LOT, and feeling depressed and lonely and desperate and just so sad. Feels like old times, post BD. I don�t know if it�s acceptance or just another wave of grief or what. Maybe those are one in the same.
I�m using all the energy I have to be a good mom. I�m haply to say that D4 is doing really well and seems to have adjusted nicely to this situation. I�m putting in a lot of effort to be cordial to H, and I think that helps her feel secure. I�m proud of the fact that I�ve been a really good mom through all of this.
I am not showing a bit of sadness or anger or neediness to H. But I have no poker face, and even when I smile through, I wonder if he feels it from me. I don�t even know what I project anymore. I�m really trying to detach and LRT and I�m really having a hard time.
My H shared with me a dream he had a couple of weeks ago. I won�t go into it, but the point was that he is afraid of me (we had MAJOR pursuer/withdrawer issues and when I got triggered and desperate for connection I often yelled and had emotional outbursts). I�ve been thinking a lot about the dream and the fact that he shared it. He told me that what it meant to him is that he is afraid of me and that even though he feels badly about what�s happening, his fear makes him conflicted. This info came during an emotionally charged evening and it triggered me at the time. But now I see I missed a major opportunity to validate his feelings.
It also makes me see that it�s very possible that the biggest thing standing between us is his fear. And I don�t know what I can do to heal that fear if he won�t give me a chance to do so...

Originally Posted by HopeCA

But now I see I missed a major opportunity to validate his feelings.

There will always be more opportunities. Show me a perfect validator and I'll show you a liar.

Originally Posted by HopeCA

It also makes me see that it�s very possible that the biggest thing standing between us is his fear. And I don�t know what I can do to heal that fear if he won�t give me a chance to do so...

Hope, you can't heal his fear. Only he can do that.

What you *can* do is work on your emotional awareness and finding your equilibrium. You have a lot of strong emotions cycling, and I sense that you are fighting them, that you have an aversion to them. Accept them. They are real, and they are just as valid as any other emotion. Also, don't worry about what you are projecting. Unless you are Meryl Streep, you aren't going to be a good enough actress -- so the more you find your emotional center, the less you will have to worry about what you are projecting because everything will come naturally.

I'm sorry you are going through a rough phase. It's so difficult to be in those valleys and feel anything but hopelessness and sorrow.

I think your H's dream and the fact he shared it is interesting. It could be blame and shame. Or it could be that he's giving you some valuable input. Either way, all of the above about working on your emotional balance would still be the right thing to do I think.

I am really trying to stop autobiographically hijacking threads, but I thought this might be useful: My W and I have hit a point where it is clear her fear is preventing any further progress in our MR. The reason her fear has been exposed as the main blocker is because of the months of work I have done on myself: Detaching, DB'ing, GAL'ing, not getting triggered, and finding my emotional center. I am more authentic.

If you want him to handle his fear, strip everything else away. Then, and only then, he might deal with facing his fear directly.

Thank you, unchien. It�s well said and I think it�s good advice. My IC and I have talked about this a lot, and I need to focus on it more.
When all this started, I thought that being brave enough to show my love and vulnerability despite my pain would allow him to do the same. It�s been a long, painful road, discovering over and over again that it isn�t the case. I withdrew from that and cycled through trying to be kind/being triggered and getting upset. I may have done too much damage, it may be too late. He may be too scared to ever turn toward me again. I hope that isn�t the case. . But finding my center and being my authentic self, without fear or anger, is still the way.
Thank you for your reply, and for sharing in regards to your sitch.

Originally Posted by HopeCA

When all this started, I thought that being brave enough to show my love and vulnerability despite my pain would allow him to do the same. It�s been a long, painful road, discovering over and over again that it isn�t the case.

I totally get this. It hurts when you bare your soul and it goes unnoticed, ignored, and/or misinterpreted. Especially when the response from your partner is fear.

I think we often confuse vulnerability in our situations. We have this big old suitcase of emotional baggage - some of it clean, some of it dirty. When we are vulnerable, it all comes out, the good and bad, and looks like emotional puking to the recipient.

Once we sort out our laundry, it is easier to have a healthy vulnerability.

(This is all learnings from NGS).

Yes, it�s incredibly painful. My H told me many times that he didn�t believe me (this was all before I discovered DBing so I was apologizing, telling him I love him, etc) and that was so, so hard to hear. When I cried he told me he thought it was inauthentic, and when I held it together he told me that my lack of tears was a sign I didn�t mean what I was saying. It gutted me. I�ve never experienced being told that someone I love doesn�t trust me before all of this. It�s been really difficult.

That suitcase analogy for vulnerability is a really good one! I�ll be thinking that one over for a while.

I was told I was �emotionally labile�. I had to look it up. Same thing you describe basically except with a dose of diagnosis. Maybe the most patronizing condescending thing I have ever heard.

You feel like you can do nothing right, including emotionally. It�s the worst.

You can choose to think your H is just a jerk.
You can choose to believe your H is right.
Or you can choose that you are receiving signals that whatever you have been doing isn�t working, and you can reframe your life in a different way (not always in relation to the input you receive from your H). And that this is a gift.

Another hard day. I do not feel detached at all. I feel very attached to wanting to do whatever I can to rebuild my M. I know it�s not where I need to be, but it�s where I am and I�m trying to be kind to myself about it. I�m thinking a lot (too much) about the balance between detachment and my personal 180s, and coming from my authentic self. It all feels at odds. I feel my H needs to see that he doesn�t need to fear me, and that I can be a friend to him. But I also have yet to succeed at any level of detachment when I treat him as a friend. It�s like my emotional floodgates open when I treat him in a cordial manner (as I have been the last few days).
Perhaps if I just focus on being centered, it will fall into place.

Yes Hope, that is exactly the problem with trying to be friends. In the months after BD we want to jump on every crumb as a sign that things are turning around, and what better sign then our WAS being friendly to us? That's got to be the ultimate sign that a recon is imminent! So every time they say something nice we get all fired up, maybe temp check and get slapped right back down again. Over and over. THIS is why we say not to let things get into the friendzone, because it really spoils your detachment and messes with your zen! There is ample time later for the friendzone, but for now you need time and space as much as he does. Just FYI I spent a good year detached from my XW before opening the door to being friends, and we've been friendly ever since. Once you've detached you can do it successfully I think, but you've got to give yourself a solid year to detach.

Yeah that all makes sense. To be clear, when I say friend, I meant something different....one of my Hs complaints was that he felt I wasn�t a friend to him in our marriage, as his wife. I�m not trying to actually be JUST friends. I know I�m not even close to being capable of that.
I�m trying to balance detachment with allowing him to see the parts of me that could be his friend if we rebuilt a marriage.

Hope -

Let me know if I misread your situation. You have mentioned the pursuer/distancer dynamic (also called anxious/avoidant). It's common for both partners to feel disconnected from the other in these relationships.

I'm fairly certain you identify as the pursuer/anxious one. When the distant partner says they don't feel emotionally close to the pursuer, it is confusing. "What do you mean? I've been trying so hard."

You don't need to balanced detachment with allowing your H to see the parts of you that could be his friend. Detachment alone will lead you there. Once you become a secure, emotionally aware, stable, resilient person, you will naturally draw others closer to you for connection and friendship. It's part of the Zen paradox of DB.

UGH you�re right again Unchien. I�m waaaaayyyyyy in my head and spinning out. I�m gonna avoid H this evening when he comes for D4 and go do some head clearing.

H wants to discuss some stuff related to D4 this evening.
Question: if he brings up stuff specific to the D (papers have been filed) is it appropriate or crazy to stick to �I need more time to think� style delay responses? Are those only recommended for when legal action hasn�t been taken yet?

Does he want to discuss these things when he comes to pick up D4?

If so, pick-ups and drop-offs are not good places to have serious discussions about anything. That is very disruptive to kids. I'd suggest having a phone call or a separate 1:1 if discussions veer into serious territory.

Of course if he just wants to discuss some minor things about D4 and you know what those things are ahead of time, maybe it's okay.

If he wants to discuss the D, saying you would like time to think is completely valid. In fact, I would say even if you thought your H was offering more than a fair compromise, you should *still* say you need more time. You are not on his timeline, this is completely ok.

Thanks unchien. We always wait until after D4 is in bed to have any talks about this stuff

Should I still be using phrases like �I don�t think divorce is the solution but I won�t try to stop you� or is that no longer appropriate in LRT mode?

I think it only needs to be said once (assuming it was heard). After that it's all about the actions you take (or don't take).

WHEW. That was intense.
H wanted to talk about starting to pick D4 up at school on his days with her, rather than at my house. I�m proud to say that despite feeling intensely triggered, I talked about it calmly, validated a bunch and casually agreed to what he proposed. He looked very surprised. Major 180 for me.
He then brought up that he wants to attend the welcome back to school picnic. Again, triggering, as he never came to those kinds of things when we were together. He asked �is that weird?� I told him I�m surprised, because it�s new and different, so it�s weird in that way, but that I understand why he�d want to go. He seemed surprised again. He asked if it was awkward for me. I was honest, and said yes it is and I got a tiny but teary eyed. (That was not detached and I�m kind of annoyed at myself about it). He also got a bit teary talking about how he wants to be more involved in D4s life.
He talked more about wanting to pick her up from school as she gets older (triggered). I was cool, calm and ALMOST �acted as if� the whole time. I�m proud of myself.
Right after he left I got a very strong urge to text him about how he is welcome to be unlocked dinner D4s life every single day if he would just stop this. Don�t worry, I didn�t

I feel a combination of very sad, relieved it didn�t turn into a big D convo, and proud of how I handled it.

...and now I�m second guessing myself. Did I just let myself get pulled into a mini R talk and the show too much attachment? Was that a temp check? F***

HopeCA, it sounds like you handled a difficult conversation well.

Rest well and second guess yourself tomorrow.

Originally Posted by HopeCA

...and now I�m second guessing myself. Did I just let myself get pulled into a mini R talk and the show too much attachment? Was that a temp check? F***

No I think you handled it all quite well. When it comes to D4 then by all means if he wants to be more involved by going to school activities and such then you should back that completely no matter how uncomfortable you might feel around him. Now if he's wanting to do family stuff with you, like the two of you take D4 to the zoo for example, that's a different matter. But if he's just going to something at the school and you'll be there as well then yes, that's fine.

Thanks AS. I feel a tiny bit better in the light of day. I know it�s a good thing that he wants to attend these things; it makes our daughter very happy, and that is what matters.

I guess I wondered if his asking me if it was weird for me if he comes was a temp check? It only matters because if it was I messed it up, so I want to be able to ID any future ones...

He�s coming to pick up D4 again this evening. I�m going to remain cordial but pull back more; I�m messing with my path to detachment by being as friendly as I�ve been and getting pulled into the small talk thing.

Originally Posted by HopeCA

I guess I wondered if his asking me if it was weird for me if he comes was a temp check? It only matters because if it was I messed it up, so I want to be able to ID any future ones..

I don't see it as one, and I think your response was a good one. Yes it feels weird but you're still OK with him being there. That's a great response really, it shows detachment.

Hope,

Agreed these are not temp checks.

You handled it really well. Your H was probably assuming you would get triggered and lash out, instead you stayed calm, admitted it was a little awkward, but that you were okay. It's not always wrong to share a little emotion here and there - you showed that you have emotions, you didn't overshare, and you can handle them. You even got feedback from your H that he was surprised! There will be times you get zero feedback, or even negative feedback. Enjoy the small victories!

Whatever your personal history aside, I think it's normal for your H to show increased interest in D4's life. It's going to be difficult to go through. I think you have the right mindset to focus on how it impacts D4.

Thanks you guys!!

Journaling

Warning, these are not good detached thoughts. I�m trying to purge them out before I see H this afternoon.
I sense him being extra careful around me lately, my guess is that he is trying to make sure not to give me any false hope.
Some people here have said that I didn�t push him to file D papers, that his doing it shows that it was inevitable and I just may have sped it along. I guess that�s a good thing, but it doesn�t feel like it now. He probably could have gone on in limbo for years. I couldn�t have. But, maybe I could have or should have been more patient. Part of me misses the mixed signals, they gave me hope. But my hope was only hurting me, and keeping me hanging on. Not that I�ve let go yet, obviously. But I believe what everyone says, that letting go is the only possibility for a chance at recon. I�m trying. I wish I were stronger. I wish I had that �his loss� feeling. And honestly I wish he did too.

(((Hope))) It does get easier over time. I have the �his loss� feeling about 90% of the time and the other 10% comes in short waves that I just ride out. The bottom line is that you cannot control what other people do or say or feel... you can only control yourself. So that is where you need to put your efforts. It is okay to have hope...you don�t want to lose that ever. But hope for a better you and a better future and a better relationship...regardless of who it is with. Keep working on GAL and your PMA. (((HUGS)))

Hope, one tiny word of warning. It's about your last sentence.

"I wish I had that "his loss" feeling. And honestly I wish he did too."

I know that feeling well. But don't wrap your head in knots with what you assume he is or isn't feeling. You do have clues, and know how to read him probably better than anyone else. I get that. But you only have to review Blu's story to know that we don't actually know what the WAS is thinking during these times. The either A) Absence of emotion or B) Abundance of emotion makes it very difficult to read them in any "normal" way that we are used to.

I don't care if a relationship splits because of MLC, because of an affair, because it was just the "right thing" to do - it's major for ANY relationship to be on the rocks. And he is feeling something in his own way - but it's not his normal thought process because this is not a normal situation. So you can't read him like you maybe always have.

When I stopped guessing what my WAS was thinking I was able to let go just a bit more. I was able to shrug my shoulders and just say, "You know? I don't know what she's thinking. I only know how I feel and what I'm thinking". And that really helps reframe things. It stops the cycling to a certain degree, and I find it a good practice to constantly remind oneself of this fact.

You�re right, it�s really hard for me to stop mind reading attempts. It�s just another way I try to soothe my anxiety with control and information. I also use it to try to keep my hopes in check. But I end up all over the place. And it�s so true, I have no idea what H is thinking at this point. I�m trying really hard to detach from my desire to figure it out. It�s so hard right now; this divorce process has been started, and I don�t want it to happen, so I�m back again to anxiously waiting to see what will happen next. My anxiety level is very high and I�m desperately trying to soothe myself, in all the wrong ways.

Last night H texted me before he got here to see D4. He said he had a bad day and he was stressed and had no energy, and asked if it was ok if he and D4 came back here a little earlier than usual. Kind of strange for sure. I just told him I�m sorry he is stressed and no I don�t mind. Not sure what that was about.

D4 and I are going with 2 moms and their kids to a lake cabin for a few days. I�m really looking forward to some time away and some relaxation.

Originally Posted by HopeCA

Last night H texted me before he got here to see D4. He said he had a bad day and he was stressed and had no energy, and asked if it was ok if he and D4 came back here a little earlier than usual. Kind of strange for sure. I just told him I�m sorry he is stressed and no I don�t mind. Not sure what that was about.

Nice validation!

On the mind-reading, I drove myself so crazy early in my sitch that I developed a method to stop it. If I assumed my W was thinking something, I would mentally list out all the alternative options. And then I would look at the list and realize I had no clue which one was right, so may as well stop trying to mind-read.

Example, your H wanted to drop off D4, he had a bad day:

- He is questioning the decision to D
- He had a bad day at work
- He didn't get enough sleep and he was cranky
- The barometric pressure in the atmosphere exerted extra pressure on his neck, giving him a mild headache throughout the day.
- D4 wore him out
- He was lying about being stressed, and really just wanted a break
- He was going to meet someone else
- He was feeling guilty about the D and wanted you to have extra time with D4 because he recognized how you were feeling
- He was trying to soothe his own guilt
- A driver honked at him putting him in a foul mood
- He cut himself shaving in the morning
- He ate something that upset his stomach

... and on and on

YES. I caught myself instantly getting caught up in mind reading, because the text was so out of the ordinary. And then I did exactly y what you are saying. I went through all of the possibilities I might be hoping for it to mean, and then a bunch of the other possibilities that are equally as...possible. I questioned whether he was just kind of lazily cake eating by wanting my help with D4 rather than being on his own with her (he didn�t drop her off early�he brought her to my home earlier than usual and stayed until after she went to bed as he usually does) That possibility annoyed me, so I was proud of myself for still validating and for letting it cross my mind, because it�s completely possible that�s all it was. I guess I feel proud when I am conscious of not fooling myself into being overly optimistic about his weird, unexpected actions.

Also, that moment gave me an interesting realization about validation with WAS. Up until last night I thought the validation piece of all of this was sort of the outlier part that really was meant to benefit the relationship with WAS. But in that moment, in the swirl of hope and anxiety and annoyance and confusion, I think I was able to detach for just a moment and just respond to the simple message being communicated from someone I care about; �I am stressed�. For that moment I was able to filter my feelings (strip the other stuff away, as you have said Unchien) and yes that was kind and emotionally generous to H, but it was also very empowering for me. I finally got that the validation is powerful for ME. THAT is a step toward detachment, and that is actually caring about another person. Taking my triggers and swirling emotions out of it and just responding to the message. I swear I am actually a really intelligent person, but this stuff makes me feel S L O W.

Please start a new thread and link both of them together.

Link to new thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2862763#Post2862763