Am I doing this right?? - DivorceBusting.com

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Hey all! Apologies in advance it's a long one.

I am new to posting but have been reading, lurking, and learning here for months. I have read both DB and DR. I have also read heartsblessing site backwards and forwards many times along with Cadets welcome message post. I have been working on myself since the very begining. At first it was like we all seem to do and was a mad dash to fix all our "issues" according to our spouse. But then i started to really look inward. Boy she was a mess

I was depressed, feeling neglected, resentful and unappreciated. I had no self esteem and legitimately did not see myself as attractive. (Theres a childhood issue right there lol) Right after bomb drop I lost 30 lbs. That put me back down into teenage pre kid weight. Luckily I got my stuff together and stopped loosing and regained my appetite. Started eating better and working out. I have maintained my 180's in most places. Backslid a tiny bit into emotional shopping territory but knowing its an issue so it makes it easier to pull myself up short. Which is good considering one of his BD complaints is only being with him for the money... Which is total BS. I have been a SAHM almost our entire marriage. I don't regret it for a minute but guess who does.

As far as our MR went it had its issues clearly but for the past decade things were good. We never fought ( red flag i know) always loving and affectionate. Fantastic sex life. Partners and a team in every sense. I was always the main parent but he backed me up fluidly. Kids love and respect him. I think the only reason this isnt harder on them is they are used to him being gone for training and deployments. So H moving out in Jan hasnt been a bigger deal to them. At this point they do not know about OW and I hope they never do.

So on to the confusing part. He told me about the OW(and recent physical nature) in Nov. I had suspected due to his phone behavior but didnt know for sure. Prior to that I had gotten all the classic MLC drivel. From "I can't do this anymore" to a very brief and taken back ILYBNILWY. Made vague references to separation but never straight out asked for divorced. Very tighted lipped on anything. Still has only mentioned divorce one other time in Dec around the time OW went out of country. Oh they know each other from work. Well she was physically out of the picture for about 5 months. This seemed to take tremendous pressure off H. He was nicer to me again. Having normal conversations and no longer looking at me like the enemy. We sold the house (something we'd been talking about prior to BD) and bought a new one in the area we'd been wanting to move. He helped move. Began coming around and hanging out at the house. Which seemed to make him anxious with how much he liked it and felt comfortable. He has been much more involved and helpful with the kids and their activities whereas before that always fell on me. I feel without pursuit and pressure from me and implementing my 180's and GALwK we were able to rebuild a little. Then May arrives and along comes OW again. Whelp I got set aside so fast my head spun. Our conversation dwindled during the days leading up to her arrival(Ive been No initiating contact since the begining of his runaway replay behaviour in Sept) then I didnt hear boo feom him for 5 days. Then my first official temp check asking how my exam went. WOW! Then another 5 days after the weekend kid visit dropoff. I completely ignored the next two temp checks. One was midnight this past friday Asking why I was ignoring him lol. Clearly NC from me makes him anxious. So my question is am I handling this whole thing right? I know MLC is on their timeline and I do truly hope he finds peace in himself. I am willing to give him time and space. I know i have no control over anything but myself. I also know that i can't do anything about the affair. I just dont want to make things worse.

If you've read this far thank you. Any and all questions, comments and 2x4's welcome and appreciated.

Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon

Welcome,

Glad you posted. Let us know how we came help.

Goddess8,

I am so sorry that you are here. If there is one thing that I have learned since my wife dropped the bomb, it is empathy. I can't believe how many people are suffering in the world. I pray that God brings you peace and comfort. I hope that the community here can help us to get through this terrible time.

Thanks Destroyd I really appreciate any and all positive thoughts and prayers.

R2C I am trying to make sure my DBing right. I havent made any noise about the A or OW. Minus early on after a few drinks when we were hanging out. And even then it was along the lines of "I know I cant change your mind or control what you do, but you know you'll have to make a choice" paraphrasing as its been months. He was attempting to cake eat for sure. Even called me his "ride or die" saying he'd always be there for me no matter what. And I was his best friend. Well ya I always had been. I guess I worry about coming off ambivalent to the affair. I refuse to be actively labeled as his plan B, but I also worry that its blatantly obvious since I still wear my rings.

Goddess,

I like your statement about not wanting to appear ambivalent to the affair, many here come off that way. But how do you show that you won't tolerate it?

I said F it and stopped worrying about wearing my ring 6 months ago. I haven't touched it physically, and more important mentally, since then. I was tired of being played.

Are you really going to be his ride or die if he has affairs forever? Is it fair to hurt your ride or die like this?

I also needed to go NC a couple times. The BS was just too much. I hope you are getting out and having fun. What's your GAL like?

And there in lies my problem. I don't know. I set a boundry on him talking to her on the phone in my house before the move. I will not tolerate that disrespect. I refuse to discuss her at all with him. I know its only to alleviate his guilt. I set a boundry on him driving her car to my house(long story). Aside from those things that directly affect me and or my kids since he's moved out i just dont know.

I feel like my rings are my symbol to my commitment to my marriage. Which he knows. BUT I'm still married so... I know ultimately he can think what he wants.

I have always been a bit of an introvert homebody so GAL activies are challenging. Ive gone to all the kids sporting events etc. I have attempted to hang out with friends(minute social circle). I went to school for something I've wanted to do for awhile. Mainly it's been things he's been disinclined to do over the years ie the beach. I read a lot and have been working on writing. I've been disenchanted with the gym but really need to suck it up since it would be a 180.

Overall my postive metal attitude has been very good. There are days that arent so good, but i push through.

you sound like you're doing ok Goddess8, keep up with the GAL, particularly stuff he never wanted to do!

I too get the whole 'you're with me because of money' thing because I've been a SAHM. It's rewriting history. I earnt more than my H for a few years and we've been broke together and we've been rich together and I would swap every single penny we have to get my H back. When my H was going through a hellish time at work and was worried about losing his job, I told him that I didn't care about money, that we would be ok no matter what happened with his job and that he was more important to me than any amount of money.
Guess what he throws in my face now about that time?
I WASN'T SUPPORTIVE ENOUGH
This makes me utterly spit with rage, but at the same time I know that it's my H's way of saying he doesn't feel appreciated for earning lots of money, and that at the time I should have validated my socks off instead of saying this stuff. I disrespected his feelings, and I still don't understand this but I accept it. I also think there is a LOT of jealousy there, because I have a very flexible life now the kids are older, and he is stuck working 14 hour days. But there's not much to do about that, his jealousy is his own business.

Sorry, I made this all about me, but I can see a few parallels in our sitches (other than I don't think my H is having an A but who really knows). I think maybe you let him back too early the first time, he got lonely when the OW went and was using you as his plan B till plan A arrived back on the scene.

Dillydaf and Goddess8,

My wife is a SAHM too, and boy I wish we didn't go down that route. We were lucky to be able to afford it, but she never liked it. Then I would feel that she was ungrateful. I felt like I was working all the time, and then I would come home and the house would be a mess and nothing got done. I felt like I was being used. I really regret these feelings now, because I am sure these feelings lead to her resentment. I love her so much, but I am scared her resentment will never leave her now. I am scared that I will have this regret and guilt the rest of my life. I am so scared that I will never be happy again.

Hey dilly,

Yes! I have gotten the I wasnt there for him too. Spitting rage is a good way to decribe it. And yes the jealousy is very accurate. I came to the conclusion mine was projecting and resentful of me "getting" to stay home. Forget the fact that being a SAHM comes with its own set of emotional issues. He'd lose his mind. But that is the difference; in his ugly moments he felt i didn't do anything or contribute because I didnt have a 9-5 income producing job. A job is actually one of the draws of the OW. But in true damaged hypocrite style he'd hamstrung me through the years about getting work with his jealous controlling behavior.

He hasnt moved back. Sorry if my post was confusing and rambled on. But I do agree with the lonely part. He's never lived on his own. He went from living at home to military and being married young with a family.

Needing clarification... H text me yesterday out of the blue with a rather benign question about my potential future job. I was out and about around town and didnt answer right away. Debated whether I shouldnt answer at all. Ended up responding about 30 mins later since he'd asked the same question last week. Gave a straight to the point response and left it at that.

Was this the classic temp checking? Did I handle it right?

I may have this wrong but to me this doesn't sound like temp checking. Temp checking is when they do or say something and then gauge your reaction to see if you are still plan B or to do or say just enough to keep you as plan B.

Examples:

1. You look really nice today, is that a new dress. It suits you.
2. Touching you in a familiar, husbandly way (could be sexual in nature, or could be as subtle as a hand held to your shoulder for slightly too long)
3. Asking if you want to join him on family things (when he has avoided it for months)

Temp checks are OK as long as you don't have any expectations that they will lead to R. When they happen, you just have to not react to them either negatively or positively.

It is difficult to work out if a temp check is a temp check or a genuine but tentative step towards R. If it is a temp check, then as soon as he is confident that you are still Plan B, then he will revert to his pre-temp check behavior. If it is a genuine attempt at R, then the behavior will manifest consistently over a long period.

I read the question about your job as controlling or manipulative. He still wants to be consulted on things. My H was the same when I started making changes to the house. He would ask who I was getting to do it, how much it was costing, whether I had shopped around blah blah blah. Your response was the correct one (IMHO).

Thanks for the feedback. This part of things is new for me. I feel we were having small baby steps forward in the months OW was gone, but since she's been back we are at square one. Minus the negativity and him blaming me for everything. He quit saying they were just friends months ago and apologized for the affair and hurting me. Considering it was over text and pretty sure he'd been drinking I chalked it up to guilt and manipulation and took it with a grain of salt.

I know for a fact she is controlling and jealous which I find poetically hilarious since he's been that way off and on for years. Its an issue he needs to overcome(assuming he ever does the personal work). Is it safe to say since the bright shiney new toy is back in town I should remain completely backed off and do not initiate any contact unless an emergency? Then if he reaches out when is it ok to respond?

Hi Goddess, Is OW married or do you know? Seems like when the WAS isn't pressing for D even though an OP is in the picture, it's usually because the OP is married as well.

Originally Posted by Goddess8

We sold the house (something we'd been talking about prior to BD) and bought a new one in the area we'd been wanting to move. He helped move. Began coming around and hanging out at the house.

But he's never lived there? I'm curious how all that went down, did the two of you buy the new house under the presumption that you would both be living there or was the house specifically for you and the kids?

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Then May arrives and along comes OW again.

Where had she been until then? Did they break up or was she deployed elsewhere?

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Whelp I got set aside so fast my head spun. Our conversation dwindled during the days leading up to her arrival(Ive been No initiating contact since the begining of his runaway replay behaviour in Sept) then I didnt hear boo feom him for 5 days.

OK sounds like she was just gone for a while, so he probably never let up with her, but she wasn't immediately available so he reverted back to Plan B (you) temporarily.

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I completely ignored the next two temp checks. One was midnight this past friday Asking why I was ignoring him lol. Clearly NC from me makes him anxious. So my question is am I handling this whole thing right?

Yes I think so. I think you need to go as dark on him as you can, keeping contact limited to discussions about finances or the kids. You need to protect yourself financially, but you've got to stop his cake-eating.

AS,

OW is not married. From what I can tell she is younger. More towards the mid 20's if not a little younger.

No he's never lived at the current house. Kids and I have only been in it a few months. I agreed to selling the previous house since its something we'd been talking about doing for a couple years because i knew taking care of an older house on land by myself would be hard. But it was with the express understanding that he would help us get a place like we'd talked about previously. He had tried to show me too small cheap rentals in less than great parts of town. Big no on that. He had already moved out a month prior to us closing on the new house.

She was deployed dec-may. I know they kept in contact the whole time. I did find out she had broken up with him multiple times because he was still talking to me. Go figure. The most recent breakup was a week or so prior to her getting back.

Yes since she came back and he completely ignored my existence on Mother's Day he made his choice well known I haven't spoken to him. I go for the "friendly cashier" approach when he comes to pick up the kids. In person when he's being friendly and engaging it takes conscious effort not to slip back into normal.

Well in a way you're lucky having moved house like this and not having had him live there. I find my current house excruciating sometimes, because we have lived there together almost all our married lives. Sometimes I want nothing more than to sell up and move somewhere with no memories. You know, like my H has done, he hasn't even let me see his flat.

I hadn't seen FS's definition of a temp check before, I kind of assumed it was any non-essential contact. I would have taken that text as temp checking myself. You sound like you're doing ok, if he's busy having an A then you're plan B and you are too good to be plan B.

The SAHM and breadwinner dynamic is interesting, I think fundamentally it's about power imbalances and living very different lives. I agree that being a SAHM with small children is incredibly hard, and also the difficulty is impossible for the spouse to appreciate. Similarly, working a stressful job with long hours is also hard. I never, ever wanted to end up living an unequal marriage, but my H worked such ridiculous hours that I figured one of us had to be at home to be a parent. You do lose confidence being at home, but then if you're at work all the time you feel like you're not part of the family, I feel like that's what happened to my H, especially as the kids got older. And the less you engage with your family, the less they engage with you and you have a vicious circle of disconnected lives.

Hi Goddess........(love the name!)

I don't know that I can add anything to the great advice you have already received. Just going to share some thoughts. The first thing I would suggest is stop trying to fix your MR. Let go of your H. I'm not telling you to divorce him, I'm saying to drop that tight emotional rope you have around him. Trust me, he feels it. It's pressure to him, and works like garlic to a vampire.

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Luckily I got my stuff together and stopped loosing and regained my appetite. Started eating better and working out. I have maintained my 180's in most places.

Good, focus on being fit & healthy......not skinny.

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Backslid a tiny bit into emotional shopping territory but knowing its an issue so it makes it easier to pull myself up short.

I understand how you probably had to buy a new wardrobe after so much weight loss. However, emotional shopping is an addiction, which can lead to hording and other problems. It can destroy relationships, especially if the W is spending her H's money on her addiction. So, if you need IC or whatever to help you in this area, I hope you will follow through. You've shown you "can" control it, but those moments of relapse can be a deal breaker in some R's.

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Still has only mentioned divorce one other time in Dec around the time OW went out of country. Oh they know each other from work. Well she was physically out of the picture for about 5 months. This seemed to take tremendous pressure off H. He was nicer to me again. Having normal conversations and no longer looking at me like the enemy.

He is/was getting pressure from two women. Both were making demands, in their own way. So, when OW was gone, he felt relieved and turned to you......b/c by then, you felt the threat of OW ease, and you probably let up on the pressure from your end. However, he is addicted to the thrill that OW provided........much like the feeling you get through shopping.

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So my question is am I handling this whole thing right? I know MLC is on their timeline and I do truly hope he finds peace in himself. I am willing to give him time and space. I know i have no control over anything but myself. I also know that i can't do anything about the affair. I just dont want to make things worse.

Is he still financially providing for you and the kids?

Well, here's what I would do.

He would never know I lost a wink's sleep thinking about him and his OW. I would NEVER make any reference to her. I would find my own employment (part time, anyway) for my own self esteem purposes. My GAL would keep me so busy that he would find it difficult to get me into a texting conversation. If it's about business or the kids, I would keep it short and have a professional tone. I'd learn to not be chatty-Cathy with text responses. I wouldn't be cold, but just nonchalant. You know, when a gal is filling her life with new experiences and letting go of things she can't control.......well, there's just a different air about her.

I would always look good. No, I'd look hot! (I'd make him regret leaving me!)

Actually, others may tell you that's not a good attitude......but I'm just saying it would give a lot of motivation for "me time" at the gym, the spa, beauty shop, etc. Instead of the "mom look", I'd update it, and who knows......he might not even recognize me the next time at kid swap.

It is rare to have a woman on the board who was wayward, WAW, or MLC. It is even more rare to hear from a man who had that experience. The few I remember giving their story, said how they were drawn back to their LBW. It was when he felt she was truly moving on and leaving him behind. She would be nice, she wouldn't bad talk him, try to hook him by finding excuses to have him come to her place, etc. He's see her wearing new hair styles, maybe change color, looking fit, dressing nice, etc. But there was no pressure from her.

Goddess, this is true when the shoes are on the other feet. The spouse that wants out, or can't make up their mind what to do........will always wake up and sense they are really loosing the one they want. That means, you've got to do the walk, know what I mean? Stop hanging out with him. You don't need to be talking to him, when you've been drinking.

Okay, so does he ever go to the house to spend time with the kids? If so, do you get dolled up and leave? Try it and be a little mysterious. He doesn't need to know about your personal life. There's a contact number, should there be an emergency.

Here's the thing. He needs to miss you! He can't miss you, if your presence is with him. If you are texting......he has your presence. If he sees you, he has your presence. LBW's are afraid of removing themselves, b/c of their fear of losing the H & MR. Don't let him more than just glimpses of you, b/c you need to give him that space from you. The tough part is to let him get all of OW he can stand. Let him get so sick of her he'll puke at the sound of her voice. You let off the pressure, no nagging, no insecurity, no critical talk. He will get sick of the OW's jealousy, insecurity, pettiness, and emotional pressure. In the meantime, the Goddess is building a new life, and she's going to be just fine.

Working on a response for you sandi and dilly but H just text me again! Last night was about kids finals this week but since he was actively texting them too i didnt respond. Just now is about a class he is taking and apparently looking for sympathy for how difficult it is. Do I respond at all? Wait a while first? Why the heck is he texting me if she's there for him?? Ugh

Hey Sandi,

I appreciate the response. I highly respect your option and journey and willingness to share it with the rest of us.

Yes emotional shopping is an addiction and just as hard to break as any other. It can be more insidious though, because going to the store is unavoidable. Everyone needs to eat and kids need stuff lol In my case it was never a conscious decision. Never an "I feel like crap lets go buy something". I was always I'd already be depressed and next thing i knew we'd be fighting about the money spent. Most of the time it all went back. Since moving it has been an even bigger effort to tell myself no. Being in town makes it SOOO easy to just pop in and see whats new. And yes losing weight and needed new clothes didn't help. Neither did needing things for the new house.

I will readily admit to unintentional pursuit after bomb drop before finding info like here. TBH it was when he'd be home instead of running away out to bars before I found out about OW and we would hang out with alcohol. Stupid I know. Being no new and hurting I scarfed up those crumbs he threw every time. That all stopped in Nov when I'm guessing guilt got the better of him after things went physical with the OW and he called me while they were out at a bar. I did the opposite of what would have been expected. I didn't react. No yelling or crying. I honestly expected it just didn't know when or how I'd find out. At that point he still claimed they were just friends. That "she got him" and their "personalities were just alike". I had a "whoop there it is" moment in my head lol By that point I'd already found this site and heartsblessing's sermons. I was more prepared than if I'd gotten the affair knowledge at bomb drop in July. I was still devastated but after a good crying jag by myself it honestly helped trigger growth in me personally. I had already been gaining strength emotionally and finding my self-confidence for the first time ever so this just gave me more resolve to be the better person. Not to stoop down to their level. Be the better person for me and my kids. To know that no matter what I handled everything with grace and dignity.

Yes he is still paying for everything. I get the lion share of the paycheck and he's got an small amount going to a separate account that he uses. I have suspicions that the OW has been helping with his rent while shes been gone. Obviously have no proof just my intuition.

I have to say other than the very beginning I haven't lost sleep over all this. There has been the occasional toss and turn night with dreams processing everything but for the most part I sleep like a baby

I do not talk about her at all with him. I don't make any noise about her whatsoever. That is his emotional ticking time bomb not mine. To the point that a week after she came back and I hadnt heard from him his second message to me was "Oh btw incase you care OW is back..." my response was OK. Then "how will this affect kids" lol. I'm not 100% sure why he felt the need to tell me other than to get a reaction. It's like dude what did you expect???

I literally LOL'd at the looking hot comments. I have to say that has been part of my 180's and I've never felt better. I have always been a jeans a tshirt kinda girl, but making the effort to wear a blouse with my jeans and cute shoes makes a huge difference. Making myself do something besides a ponytail with my hair and put on my makeup goes along way to feeling better about myself. And I know he's noticed because he's complemented me. You could have knocked me over with a feather the first time he told me my hair looked nice a couple months ago. He was actively flirting with me. To the point the kids noticed. And we have talked at great length about what their dad is going through. Minus OW. That is his can of worms to open or not.

While I was doing night classes he was coming over and helping with the kids picking up from practices and such. I was already gone by that point. But on the weekends when he'd drop off or pick up I always made sure I looked great and so did the house. (That was a big 180 after my depression keeping the house properly) But I would make plans to hang out with friends with kids which he would find out about from D11 and it would make him so nosy. Asking all sorts of questions lol Where ya at? What ya doing? When ya gonna be home? At x house. Hanging out. IDK

He has shown and expressed confusion. He has told my SIL a few times he didnt know what to do. That he loved us both. He gets "fed up" with OW BS. Tired of the lies. He has told me a few times he feels crazy and doesnt know whats wrong with him. He knows he's f ing up. He has even gone so far as to get full panel blood work done and testing for early onset alzheimer's. He's been convinced he might have some kind of cancer. Obviously nothing like that and all test came back normal. I know I cant say anything about MLC. About all ive done is say stress and depression can be rough on the mind and body. He is on anti-d meds because of sleep issues. So those might be helping him a little.

Yes! When I got a big ol goose egg for acknowledgement on mothers day because OW had just gotten back I took a deep breath and said Ok. I said ok Goddess

if thats his choice then there is your answer. Step back. I needed to pull up my emotional big girl panties and give him ALL the space. And get mine too. The first couple times after that when he sent random texts i had mild panic attacks. Now less than three weeks later I don't anymore. Just the mild confusion on the best way to handle those random text

And yes I will be just fine. He is the one losing the best thing to ever happen to him.

No contact is so hard. Especially when they arent spewing and seem to want to talk, but it is inconsequential. H keeps sending me random text. Last most recent was a sad face emoji. He also asks the kids what I'm up to. Ugh

That sounds really hard for you. I'm sure he'll get over the OW soon, it already sounds like the shine is fading on that relationship, no wonder because it's built on lies and immorality. It almost sounds like you feel sorry for him in a weird way?

I really do have a lot of compassion and empathy for him. I know I cant know everything from his childhood but I know a lot. I see the pain and confusion. It makes it a bit easier to step back and breath if he starts projecting( now that i know what that is

) I get confused on how to handle things sometimes, but the best bet all around is just to remove myself from the line of fire.

Funny thing... he text the kids this morning asking if they wanted to get lunch today. He drove over and hung out for a few then asked me if I wanted to join them. I agreed. Didnt accure to me to that maybe I might shouldn't... Oh well. I'm not going to play games. If he asks me he better plan on possibly getting a yes lol. We'll see how he continues from here. He was talkative and a little reminiscent. Laughed at the kids shenanigans. Last year he would have griped at them singing along to music at an empty restaurant. Small steps I guess. He also wasn't on his phone very much and didn't seem to be texting so who knows where the OW stands. Somewhere far away would be nice

Hi Goddess - just checking in with you.

I think the SAHM or D thing has a huge effect on a marriage. I wonder if it's just a very unnatural way to live - traditional, sure, but in our modern society it means one partner needs to work like crazy, and the other is fairly isolated at home, and there's such a disconnect in roles that resentment builds on both sides.

My experience is a bit more unusual for a woman but I was always the breadwinner in our marriage, and H was either the SAHD or taking a very very long professional qualification that he is just on the brink of finishing. I share it here in case it is useful to you. During his SAHD days, he did absolutely everything, I worked a lot, and I took him totally for granted. He became very fussy and anxious and controlling over the way things were done in the house - because I think he felt like his work was invisible (and that's on me) and that turned into him being just constantly moaning and critical and I hated it and we were very very distant. Once he started this qualification, we split the household work more evenly, but he still acted like he was 'in charge' of all domestic and childrearing matters, and I really resented this because not only was I still earning 100% of the money, but was also doing half of the childcare and domestic stuff, and still getting criticism for it. And this professional qualification was incredibly demanding of his time, stressful, emotionally taxing (he's in medicine) and I failed to validate the pressures he was under, and just lashed back at his controlling and behaviour in really unhealthy ways. A healthier set of people could have coped with the uneven division on labour and money in a better way - and it was something I agreed to (I love my job and didn't want to be a SAHP) but hindsight is a wonderful thing. I know from my point of view, H could have done more to change his circumstances - he could have worked if he didn't want to SAHD and we could have paid for childcare. He could have spent the time the kids were at school / nursery working on his own social life and let the housework fall back a bit in favour of his own mental health. I couldn't do that for him. It's a very tangled situation.

I hope you're well and will check in on your situation soon.

Goddess,

if you're going NC, then going to lunch with him and the kids seems strange. What was the reason you wanted to go NC in the first place?

I think if you go NC, try to send the kids out when he gets there. I wouldn't even want to see him. You don't have to go NC for any reason other than to protect yourself IMO. So do it when you have to and then if you're ready for small communication then you cease NC. But inconsistency is no good IMO.

I started NC to process my feelings and protect myself. Three weeks ago I found out OW was finally coming back from deployment. That was mothers day weekend. He pretty much forgot my existence. I was PISSED. I gave you three children and the last 17 years. Wtf repeated on a loop in my brain all day. I had not detached. I had been doing all this work on me and I was STILL affected by his BS. Sad part is I knew better. I didn't go NC as a punishment to him. But I will admit he hadnt yet to truely feel the potential loss of me. I know better than to allow myself to be manipulated by him.

As far as the lunch went I agreed because it was an honest invitation. I don't know what the status of the OW is. I know its been ugly and volatile from the git go. I didn't go with any expectations other than food

Just a bit of an update.

H text me yesterday with an update on his test that has been stressing him out. He passed with a 90! I knew he could do it. He has never had confidence in himself when it came to school stuff. I've always tried to encourage him otherwise. He is smart enough but can't see it. I did learn something about myself recently when he started this new class for work. That even though I have been bis biggest cheerleader I was also an unintentional enabler. If he was too busy or too stressed I would help him or flat out do the work. I thought I was helping. Contributing to the growth of his career to help the family in turn. And why shouldn't help? I was ONLY staying home with the kids...

Fast forward to last week. He has a paper due. I get it 6-8 pages about stuff you find uninteresting [censored]. Yes I can under the right circumstances write that much in a couple hours. BUT he had the b*lls to offer to pay me a couple hundred bucks to write it for him! I laughed and said NO. He of course tried buttering me up with compliments. I just want to say dude you fired me as your wife. The handholding for schoolwork is over. Heck I don't even do that for the kids!! Guess he'll really get a dose of who's had his back all these years. 'Cause if the OW is still around he sure isnt asking her for help.

Wow, that's funny! I guess NOW your brains are worth something hey?

I had that exact thought.

Being able to step back from the situation and see things as an "outsider looking in" sometimes it is comical the stuff they pull. Other times just sad. He hasnt text at all today. Oh well.

I did get great news that I can take the next step on my new career today! Full steam ahead.

Again with the random text updates from H yesterday. School isnt going well. He is of course freaking out. Not sure what he expects me to do. I validated a little, but since his comments seemed more pitty party it was fairly limited. He had told the girls he had to study this weekend so "hanging out is probably a bad idea this weekend". I hope he's truely studying. Id say his consequences are his own if he's not, but the truth is if he lost his career after all these years it would be a huge blow to the family. In all honesty it's probably good we are all used to him being gone for deployments.

Overall I feel I'm doing pretty well with detachment. I talk about the situation with us but its with limited or no emotion involved. I might have a fleeting thought about him and the OW, buts its just that. I don't spare them two brain cells. Its easier to put them out of my mind now.

The kids are officially out for the summer. I've been GALing with a couple friends and the kids. A semi new friend asked me to a local pub tomorrow for a live band playing during the day. No idea what the music is gonna be like but sounds like a good change of pace. She's also trying to get me to join the rugby team...

I've been debating posting this convo from sat night. I have been rereading the archives and trying to understand and wondering if I handled the whole thing right. At the time it felt right... But in the light of day i worried I was too dismissive and not enough of a "soft landing spot". I do also worry about posting too much detail in case he begins searching the net for his own answers. I don't want to betray confidneces but I really need some help.

This all took place after H picked up the kids for father's day weekend visit. I didnt respond to his selfies with the kids even though I saw them. I was Gal'ing with a friend at the time and it was supposed to be dad kid time. I have them all the time. While I appreciated the pics and they were cute I wasn't sure why he was sharing them. Especially after hardly talking to me the past few weeks. I have remained dim with no initiating contact. I guess I am worried that in protecting myself from getting hurt I may cut off my nose to spite my face. I have read conflicting opinions on reconnection and when it happens. True remorse vs guilt. I know I've gotten the guilt apologies in the past. What frustrates me is this stuff is never said face to face. Does that come later? Is this feeling me out? There has definitely been small baby steps towards forward growth and his willingness to own his part of the marriage. This is the first time he's spoken in absolutes of loving me in months. Before is was "mights" and "maybes". I did not reciprocate the ILY. It didnt feel right in this context. Of course I still love him. I never stopped. I have made that choice every day for years. Ups and downs. Unconditionally. That's never been an issue. But him realizing he still loves me and never stopped seems big. What he does with that knowledge is of course yet to be seen. So any pointers going forward in furture interactions is much appreciated.

H: I Think more of you than you know
I do appreciate everything you do for our kids I hope you know that

Me: Thank you

H: Ur welcome
: I mean it
:Might not mean anything or you might not believe me , but I do love you I hope you know that
:I may have said otherwise in the past but that wasn't true
:Always feel like you ignore me now

Me: Im sorry you feel that way.
: Ignoring you isnt my intent, but pulling back to protect myself while you made your choices felt best for me to heal

H: I do
: Made my choices of what
: I dont even know what my choices are any more

Me: You chose another life besides the family. You chose another woman

H: I never have or never will chose another family
: An I dont want you to think i chose another woman or anyone or anything
: You really think I've gave up everything??
: Think I'd be upset that you ignore me
: Think I'd still think about you an us

Me: It definitely seems like you gave us up and chose someone else
: Thats how it felt

H: Well I'm sorry
: I do love you though I just want you to know that
: I know I said at one time I didn't
: An maybe even thought it but truth is I really do
: For whatever its worth

Goddess, I am posting through what I have learned from others here, rather than my own experience. I've not done so well at DBing until more recently, and my situation is different from yours.

But I think words are cheap, texts are even cheaper, and if he was choosing you, you would know it through action. He can tell you he thinks highly of you and that he loves you and that he didn't choose another woman or family, but what do his actions suggest?

I think he's spooked that you're not as responsive as he wants you to be. He can no longer count on you to be plan B. If he wanted to repair things, he would be actively repairing them from his side, though actions.

Goddess, Alison is right, it's all just cheap talk to try and keep you on the hook as Plan B. Be much more brief in your replies:

H: I Think more of you than you know
I do appreciate everything you do for our kids I hope you know that

Me: Thank you (this is good)

H: Ur welcome
: I mean it
:Might not mean anything or you might not believe me , but I do love you I hope you know that
:I may have said otherwise in the past but that wasn't true
:Always feel like you ignore me now

Me: Im sorry you feel that way.
: Ignoring you isnt my intent, but pulling back to protect myself while you made your choices felt best for me to heal

(first part is OK, second part unneeded)

H: I do
: Made my choices of what
: I dont even know what my choices are any more

Me: You chose another life besides the family. You chose another woman

(don't reply to junk like this, just silence)

H: I never have or never will chose another family
: An I dont want you to think i chose another woman or anyone or anything
: You really think I've gave up everything??
: Think I'd be upset that you ignore me
: Think I'd still think about you an us

Me: It definitely seems like you gave us up and chose someone else
: Thats how it felt

(Again, not worth replying to)

Keep your responses brief, to the point, businesslike, unemotional. Try and limit to discussions to coparenting topics and nothing more. If he includes emotional spew then just ignore it.

Hi Goddess,

I just read your thread. I don't post much, but I still read along often. I have some thoughts, but know that they are influenced by my own experience, and I have not read many sitches like mine on these boards (as most of the time the S does not return). My H started an EA 5-6 years ago, then left the house for OW for 10 months, then returned and has been back over 4 years. We also have 3 kids. ... Side note: you mentioned MLC, but I don't see that (and personally don't like that term), and your H appears to be completely wayward and in limerance. I tend to think that the spouses that are more likely to return to the M are the waywards and it seems (I have no science to back this) that the Hs return back to the M more often than the Ws. Basically, from my perspective, out of all the folks that leave their M, the Hs that left to pursue OW, are the ones most likely to come back. The WWs seem less so. And the Walkaways (Hs and Ws) seem the least. Again, that is based on my own readings and research. I have no evidence :-)

Based on your last convo, it does read that he is pondering coming back. He has shown some signs of doubt, remorse and guilt all along. That is a good thing! I think they are more likely to come back with those elements verses when they run out the door chalked full of anger and resentment. That was also the case in my sitch. Even tho my H left for an A and told me he wanted D, he also felt tremendous guilt and was remorseful all along. He would still initiate contact and temp check. He would also tell me he knew it was a mistake or that he was confused, depressed, etc. He would do this even before the turning point came. His turning point did not come until I started to really follow the rules. You sound like you have been doing a much better job at that all along! I spent a long time lashing out, begging/pleading, and then lashing out again .... I am very impressed at how level headed you are and how you have been handling this!

So the others are telling you that talk is cheap. I agree, but only sort of. I am sensing that he really is starting to come around. He is also wanting to keep communication going, wanting you to know he is not w/ OW and he is inquiring about where you are at. I recall this happening in my own sitch, and I could just feel a shift -- in his words, his affect and in the way he wanted info from me. I am reading that in your interaction and it feels similar to my Hs first signs of coming back. I could be wrong, but I am just telling you that this feels really similar to me. I use the words "feel" because more than words, it was my SENSE and INTUITION that knew he was coming back. I can't exactly describe it, because like I tell other posters-- when they are coming back, you will just know it, and if you don't know it or are confused, then they are not coming back (yet). I am gathering that you are feeling a shift as well and I think you should trust your own gut. What does it tell you?

So what do you DO or SAY now? I agree with AS. Less is more! Continue to follow the 37 rules, your GAL, and keep up those 180s. Simply listen and validate only. Offer very little info. DO NOT MAKE CHANGES YET. If anything, steadily pull back a little bit more and more. Why? Because this is a critical time and you do not have enough info yet. Also, I am sorry, but your H is a jerk. He left his W and kids for a younger woman at work. Boo on him! He is going to have to work A LOT harder than that to get you back. You are a goddess! And a goddess deserves to be treated like gold!!!

This might be the beginning of his turn around. I caution that it can be very difficult and emotionally triggering. You might even find yourself not wanting him and being resentful as he tries harder. Please take this as slowly and carefully as possibly and keep posting here. Head over heart. We can help you through this!

Blu

Bump ...

I am really hoping Goddess keeps us updated. You mentioned a concern of him finding this. I think it would be highly unlikely -- even if he saw this site -- that he could find your threads and identify you among the 100s of posters and active threads.

Also, to our UK ladies that I keep swinging 2*4s at, please read her thread! Read her words carefully from the beginning and note some differences, in how her H has acted, but more so in how she is responding. ... This is the type of thread and model DBing that could have helped me years ago in my own sitch. It is possible to allow healthy detachment ... it also can lead to them coming back ...

Blu

This is perfect, thanks for pointing it out, Blu!

Hey Blu!

Thank you responding. Your note about MLC rings true as I have been having the exact same thoughts. Mlc or wayward... After all my research and knowing his history MLC seemed the most logical. He seemed to be reading from a pocket edition MLC guide for dummies

Is it possible the two share traits and overlap? I know he left to pursue the OW moving out at her insistence due to insecurity of us being around each other while she was deployed and out of the picture. Jokes on her because he was over at my house 4 days a week(no overnights) and we talked daily. I really FEEL like those months were benificial for us to rebuild the tattered bridges of our relationship.

I know the OW is still in the picture based on conversation he had this past week with my SiL. He said things were bad and they always fought. That she didnt trust him about anything(can't imagine why lol) It was also relayed to me that after getting called on his BS he admitted that yes we were good before he met OW( I know we had underlying issues). SiL also asked him whats stopping him from going home if he's so unhappy with the OW and the situation. He responded with a quiet I dont know. Now mind you the last time months ago she asked H a similar question he said he was never moving back. I agree with you with the sense even with the ow still hanging around that he is considering coming home.

One thing that makes me belly laugh is his choice of decor for his apt. He has filled it with things that remind him of home. If not straight up things I was getting rid of. He had specifically sought out items in brands I love and shop for. I know not to read into it I just think it's hilarious.

Yes! The shift in mood for lack of a better word. It feels different. I think that was my main reason for posting the whole convo. I was struggling with the thoughts that I'd said too much and not wanting to read to much into things. H has always been a man of little words. But first to call BS on someone. After months in the begining of spew then cold silence with patches of normal conversation then the more normal while ow was gone. Then a couple months back getting the maybe I love you and maybe I miss you and maybe I made a mistake. Then saying he loves someone else in the same conversation. To which I responded ok

I don't think Ive ever responded how he expected me too. Minus the first few weeks after BD. Yikes those were rough. But I digress... Yes he's said he was very confused and depressed. Loved both me and ow and didnt know what to do. Thats why after she came back and he didnt talk to me for days the NC decision was an easy one. Like i said Sat to him, he made his choice I respected his right to chose and removed myself from the situation. I am not second best or an after thought. I WILL be number one or nothing. I have proved my worth time and again over numerous deployments and kids and houses. I SEE myself clearer and truer than ever before. I am not perfect but I am worth it.

And don't be sorry H is a jerk. A total a$$. I am pleased to note though he's been better with the kids and more interested and involved(prior to this last month of ow being back) than he's ever been. H is having meaningful bonding with S15 which they very much need.

I can totally see how him making effort can be emotionally exhausting. I've spent months living my life for myself and my kids. Adding him back into the mix while the preferred goal for the family will definitely be filled with ups and downs and a whole different sent of issues.

I think between the talk with my SiL (hearing Ow was laying next to him while they talked and it not bothering me) and his texting Saturday night not actively immediately getting my hopes ups. I have been able to detach more than i realized. Even my mom commented last week how Ive been talking less and less about our sitch.
Less him and more me. Isn't that the ultimate LBS goal lol

Zero expectations, goddess. Keep your head high and keep doing what you're doing and if he comes back then let him do so slowly and earning his way back. For starters OW needs to be out of the picture, surely? My sitch is more complicated because if there's an OW she is unbelievably well hidden. Or as Alison has said, my H's work is the OW (which is ridiculously complicated to deal with...)

dilly, I would bet my house (and it's a pretty nice one) that your H has or had at least 1 OW. Honestly. Here are the main things H's having As do, and your H has done them ALL. 1. He moved out of the family home. 2. He has a flat you cannot see and other "secretive" behavior, 3. He is moody and hot/cold with you, even tho at times he wants to keep you as plan B. That is all I need to know to be 100% certain there is OW. Sorry to be blunt, my dear, but I want you to accept it. I think accepting it will help you detach. I see you taking responsibility for your M issues, but I think It's time to get mad! MAD at him for leaving his W and family. ... ok, sorry, hijack over. ...

Goddess, ooohhhh, I have so many thoughts about your sitch. And I will preface them by saying that I have a bit of a different twist on DB technique when it comes to the wayward H, as evidenced by my advice to dilly above. I tend to lean the focus less towards positive validation and more towards indifference and detachment, even if at times it comes across as cold. Yes, it is a fine line, but one that can be walked if you are careful and delicate. From what I read in your sitch, you have done a good job at this, I would suggest you start to pull back further and further on him now. Let him pursue, and you distance. It is okay if he starts to think it might be too late and he is losing you. Good! He needs to make some changes and get on with them! You are not sitting there waiting for him.

Quite simply, these fools (WHs) need to see what they are losing. We gotta flip the script on them! It pains me that I read so many women here trying so hard to get their Hs to come back around, work on the R with them, take responsibility for the M problems, and worse, validating their Hs cr4ppy behaviors! What happens is the result is that they are becoming doormats and not strong and confident women that he even wants to come home to. No, no, no ladies, YOU are the prize (and the Goddess) and these guys need to SEE what they are going to miss out on and also they need to start to FEEL the loss of you! So I ask you now, what kind of woman does he see in front of him? ..... At times it can feel like a silly game, but it's actually not a game, it's more of a truth, a truth that your wounded selves struggle to see right now. YOU ARE THE PRIZE AND YOU DESERVE MORE THAN THIS. Do not lower your standards because of your past mistakes. We all make mistakes.

In terms of MLC, I am just going to say (again, this is my opinion) that it is a BS term. In fact, It think using the term can cause harm because it creates an excuse or explanation for bad behavior, as if it cannot be corrected. All behavior can be changed. The term Midlife Crisis is also not a medical diagnosis or condition that is even recognized by psychology. People can have a crisis at any point in their life and there could be 100 reasons for it, and it's not as if age alone determines that (which the title suggests). Also, if a person is having a crisis, they are ultimately still responsible for the way they treat their S and their children. I read too many people here wanting to explain their S's poor choices on a MLC and my thought is it doesn't really matter, because it is still up to you (and me) to let them know how we expect them to treat us. If they want to be selfish, cheat, lie, and neglect their families, then they are free to leave. Bye, bye now. If they want to show respect and have honest conversations, then we can listen and validate until the cows come home. And if they want to reenter the M and have an intimate R with us, then they need to do the HARD work first.

The M will not survive and the piecing will not last, unless both people take responsibility for their part in it. Them showing signs of wanting to come back is just that -- the first signs. So why not spend less energy on trying to read the signs, and more energy on yourself. That way, if they do come back -- solid, remorseful, committed, and deserving of a chance -- you will be slightly more prepared to tackle the next uphill battle.

Have a wonderful day, goddesses. Let's all go out and treat ourselves the way we know we deserve to be treated, shall we?

Blu

I have to admit that I probably would have went darker a lot sooner if A: he wasnt paying for EVERYTHING. And continues to do so. Being a SAHM without a pot to p... in is a hard pill. Especially when you spent your entire adult life thus far caring for your family. B: If he hadnt been soooo nice and NORMAL during conversations and interactions after OW left. Him reaching out to me. Him flirting. Noticing my changes and liking them even though they were for me. (On that note one of the last times we had sex he made mention of how thin I was. Almost too thin... I laughed in his face. Said "F you I look f'ing amazing" and continued what I was doing.) Lol You dont get to harass me for my mommy tummy for 14 years then tell me I'm too skinny.

I KNOW I was facilitating cake eating at the worst and compartmentalization at the best for him. I never wanted to be jealous, vindictive or spiteful. I have the OW entire name, car info and work info and I have never looked her up. There have been moments of temptation but I also know that nothing I learn of her will help me in any way. She could be beautiful, but I am too.(Recent post bomb drop realization) Yes I bet money she's a lot younger. Well people think I'm my kids college sister all the time. So she has a job...so do monkeys. And I am actively building a business. One of my 180's is house keeping. Very 1950's I know but I was slack. I enjoy the pride of a clean house now more than ever before. I have actually had the Ah Ha moment of knowing how he's felt coming home to a mess. It [censored]. BUT no its no reason to have an affair and run away.

I've had to find my self. Respect and otherwise. Seeing me and realizing she's pretty bad a$$. I didnt give up my youth. I CHOSE to raise my kids. The universe or whatever you call it put me on this path because I am strong enough to handle it and him. Blu you are right, mistakes aside I am the goddess prize and the better greener grass. He WILL realize this eventually. I will keep my distance and keep being me. IF he seriously wants to be with me he knows where I live.

Originally Posted by Goddess8

Big hugs here. I only worked when I put H through professional school. And mine is paying for everything AS HE SHOULD. I'm over being scared of my future and I'm over feeling like his crumbs are enough.

How is it going so far on going dark?

Hey Hope,

Not talking to H is pretty easy on the daily. I had to text him about vehicle registration stuff yesterday but it was to the point. I know if he's not saying anything to me the OW is around. The thought of her bothers me less and less. Knowing she is a stall tactic for him dealing with his actual issues makes it easier to remeber she is his problem to deal with. It is actually pretty comical that he whines about me "ignoring" him and what is he doing to me? Oh Ya! Ignoring me! Out of sight out of mind. And the OW is so jealous and insecure about me its amazing. And not the least bit surprising he doest say anything to me around her. It blows my mind that no one has realized that as the mother of his kids I am NEVER going away.

I've been putting some thought into the whole MLC vs not debate. And whether H is more wayward(thats definitely in there). I think based on my own observations of H and reading till my eyes are dry of other peoples sitches MLC is a real thing. Yes the name isnt very consistent with when people can actually go through it. But it isnt suprising that people are coming into it younger. With SM bombarding us constanting on what a perfect life is like people feel that pressure earlier. With my H being mil we have always lived a fast life. When life can literally be taken at any point its hard not to try to squeeze as much in as possible. I think in regards to MLC it is a misnomer people abuse. They can use it as an excuse to rationalize away their S bad behavior. There is no excuse for how we let people treat us. If your S is going through an emotional readjustment phase and acting out out of pain and fear the best thing to do is let them be. Use your boundries for what is done directly to you, ie: no physical violence or verbal abuse. If he stomps around the house being a jerk to the air...let him. The air doesnt care. If he looks you in the face and trys cussing or throwing insults call him out calmly and say you won't tolerate the nasty. Then walk off. People are allowed to feel things. Understand most of the spew is directed at themselves and they are projecting at a convenient receptacle. But handling them with sympathy and empathy not only shows them we care about their pain but how to treat people IN pain. Showing them how to treat us in turn. I definitely did my share of crying, begging and pursuing in the begining but even at his nastiest did allow him to be an a$$. I call him on it Every. Single. Time. I understand depression. I have been there. BD actually pulled me out of one of my worst ever. People who have never experienced depression don't believe it's real or as bad as people say. When you are depressed you dont see the world as it really is. You see the world through your pain. The worse the pain the worse everything looks. I think this is why MLC and waywardness can and do hold hands. The wayward behaviors like A's give them the feel goods that the depression steal away. It is absolutely an artificial high but the spouse in crisis doesnt get that yet. I think its why the advice is to leave the A alone. Ever try to take a toy from a toddler? Or a phone from a teen? Ya...

Sorry if I rambledand been thinking a lot since 5am. Guess I'll go have more coffee

Doing some thinking and reading....

I am probably going to catch flack for this thought since we focus so much on healing ourselves as LBS's.

BUT once we are on our path of healing and working on our own emotional journey is there ever a time to reflect on our S's pain? It seems what they are going through gets disregarded because of their behavior. But people are not their behavior. If at the heart of their anger, nasty spew, and rebellious antics is someone deaply hurt and struggling then once we are healing ourselves shouldn't we show them kindness and compassion? If they begin treating us LBS kindly again consistently is it really a manipulation? Is it automatically to be viewed as malicious? Or self serving? Is there ever a point in their behavior that begins to signal they are seeing reality and begining to cautiously peek out and see how they are going to be received? If as an LBS you have worked hard to lovingly detach and their antics no longer emotionally affect you does having a conversation automatically keep setting you up as plan b? If you are still married, still wear your ring but they are still having an affair doesn't that still send the subconscious message that you are still here? Still plan b?

We as LBS have been hurt by our spouses, but when do we consider their feelings? Is that the true point of validation? To listen and consider what they are saying they feel with open mind and heart? Not to let them continually beat us over the head with our wrong doings and also not do the same to them? Is it possible we've DB'd so hard to heal ourselves and misunderstood detaching practices that when and if the S figures out they do want the marriage they are terrified of being emotionally flayed. They are already raw by that point surely. If they are at the point of "oh crap" they KNOW they messed up big. Depending on what stage they are in they could be starting OP withdrawl or in the middle of it.

I think as an LBS part of being the greener grass is less about our physical appearances and or our emotional growth(both hugely important) but our unconditional love held for our spouses. We know they messed up. They know they messed up. Isn't true unconditional love seeing a person for all their flaws and mistakes and bad behavior and loving the person anyway? Especially if they want to change?

Is it possible potential begining reconciliation attempts are made with a very small whisper that most miss? The DR book says watch for small steps forward. Do we get so busy seeing the big picture and trying to protect our own hearts that we miss the small cracks in the cement they encased theirs with? I'd hate to miss the forest for the trees.

I have gently tried talking to H about his journey a few times, but so far H just says things like "I got what I deserve", "I'm depressed", etc. In spite of everything that has occurred throughout our marriage (and there is PLENTY, I assure you), I still believe he is redeemable with God's love and Grace, and that we could have a good life together if God can reach him. H just hasn't found a way to accept it yet. I believe that our brief interactions are my opportunity to show God's love and Grace through my actions, validation, and positive attitude. I have found an inner happiness on this journey, and I believe he sees it. It�s his choice whether he will receive it.

As far as missing potential small signs or attempts as reconciliation, only you would know how to respond on a case by case basis. For me, I choose to just take things at face value � such as the invite to dinner. I just looked at it as a single event. And it was pleasant. I�m trying very hard to let him give what he can, and ask nothing of him emotionally. He will find himself ready, or not, at some point in the future. If he is never ready, and stays in limbo indefinitely, at some point I will have to decide if it�s time for me to move on.

In the early months, I wore my ring, and even pointed it out a few times to him. I thought about whether it came across to H as 'plan B'. Who knows. Doesn't really matter what they think. Ultimately you are only plan b if YOU choose to be plan B. I have since taken my ring off about 2 months ago. Just wort of morphed into not wearing it. I've been thinking about my stand lately, and felt compelled to wear them a bit over the weekend. This surprised me.

Anyway, good luck on your journey.

Grace

So H apparently did a thing...

He text me last night to tell me he ordered me an authorized user card on his new credit card acct. What????!??! I don't understand this at all. He canceled me off a long time card months ago because "I was only with him for the money". I just said OK because I don't even know what to do with this.

Goddess,

I like what you wrote and I have no flack to give (surprise, surprise, haha). I know that there are a lot of mixed opinions and advice on these 2 issues specifically (1. the relevance of the term MLC and 2. how much understanding and "kindness" we should extend to our S). I completely value and respect others' positions, even if they differ from mine. We wouldn't need this forum or these conversations if it was all set in stone! I appreciate the dialogues and at times debates on the various threads here. There have been times when someone has left a 2*4 or criticism for me, that I might have initially dismissed, only to later think more deeply about it and then found some real usefulness in it. We can all learn from one another if we choose to.

Some of the reasons I swing hard 2*4s at LBW here, is because I cannot go back in time and swing them at myself when I was initially post-BD. I really could have benefited from some myself because I made a lot of mistakes after H left. I can see now that those mistakes caused him to stay away much longer. We have talked about all this because he has now been back over 4 years. He was scared of me and my emotional outbursts. I was also needy. But much more important than him and what he thought, I can see how I kept myself in my own tailspin and caused a lot of my own hurt. I blamed him, but really I was hurting myself, and my own integrity, by hanging on so tight. I see a lot of LBWs making my same mistakes.

I tend to call BS on LBWs blaming their Hs behavior on MLC and I tell the Ws to toughen up, because I can read their "weakened" position all over their posts. I do not mean "weak" as in there is any character flaw, not at all! I mean weak in the sense that they have been beaten down to a pulp -- they are hurt, fearful and raw -- by their Hs treatment and abandoning them. So when she is reacting and interacting with her H from a place of vulnerability and fear, she is not showing him her true (goddess) strong self. She is fearful and needy. The H can sense that all over her! So he will only run away faster. The LBWs that come from a position of more confidence, strength and even at times guarded and indifferent, tends to have a different outcome. She is demanding respect! This is what men are attracted to.

In these cases, the H tends to realize that he is losing her and she is not plan B. And as all of us humans are flawed; we want what we cannot have. If he knows she will put up with his neglect, abuse or affairs, he will continue on and selfishly do what he wants. Does MLC, alcohol or depression play a role? Sure. Maybe, but maybe not. I tend to think the reasons don't matter that much because WE AS THE LBW STILL HAVE TO DO THE SAME THING. We have to let go of the toxic person, drop the rope, go dark, LOVE OURSELVES, and invest in a healthier and happier life. Hanging on to them does not serve us in any way. Understanding them does not fix the problem. We cannot fix them, but we can work on fixing ourselves.

And if these Hs want no part of a strong W and mother of their kids? WELL THEN IT IS THEIR LOSS ....We can love them and try to understand them from a distance -- we don't have to be rude or disrespectful to them -- but we can certainly remove ourselves from their poor treatment of us and give our attention to the things and people that deserve it. They don't deserve it right now.

Blu

Goddess: I resonate with so much of what you wrote there.
And Blu, thanks for that. I know I need to take this on board, but I still find it so so so hard to let go. It's ridiculous, it's been nearly 10 months now since H left and still I feel so attached. Last week was a good week where I felt pretty calm and kept busy, but this weekend I am really suffering so much and forcing myself not to text or call. Like I say, ridiculous.

So went out with a female friend to a pub tonight. Had fun met some of her teammates. Drank a couple beers. Was very mellow. Night wore on and more people showed up. Realized I was getting checked out a few times from across the patio. To be honest it was a little flattering but it mostly pissed me off. They couldn't see my rings from where they were so it was purely me. Thats the flattering part. But inside it pisses me off because I want my H. I talked about things with my friend but mostly enjoyed being out around other grown people. Didnt talk to guys at all. Didnt wonder once what H was currently up to. But I do miss him. Coming up on a year since BD so... D@#n beer

Was told by family this afternoon H went out of town about an hour away this weekend with friends and of course OW. Had a moment to be annoyed that he's wasting the money on her when he claims he's unhappy and thinks about breaking up with her. But then I reminded myself I went out last night and had a great time. And if he wanted to be with me he'd make the choice and be here. What really made me laugh was no more than 15-20 mins after talking to sil (and i know she didnt say anything to him about talking to me) H text me asking if kids needed anything from the mall. I said no. It reminded me of when he used to leave last year at the begining of all this. He'd go be with OW (before i knew about A) be gone for a couple days and of course no contact. Then whenever he'd be on the way home he'd text asking if we needed anything from town. Most of the time I said no. But sometimes I did need something so I'd have him get it. There was even a couple times he'd come home with a surprise for me. Nothing major but something he'd seen that he thought I'd like.

Been reading a lot about "wayward fog" and how it pertains to the affair. Is there ever a point the LBS can or should speak to the wayward to say "hey you have another choice."? Or is the best advice to still leave them to their own devices let go and "hope" they make the choice to turn back? I definitely love the phrase my marriage may be in limbo but I am not.

I�m not sure, but my gut reaction says that once you let them know you know about it, leave it alone and work hard on yourself to be the person you want to be. Hopefully that will also be the person they want to be with, too.

Originally Posted by Goddess8

Had a moment to be annoyed that he's wasting the money on her when he claims he's unhappy and thinks about breaking up with her. But then I reminded myself I went out last night and had a great time. And if he wanted to be with me he'd make the choice and be here.

If he doesn't like being around her then things will continue to deteriorate the more he sees her. So I wouldn't sweat that too much. The fact that he sees her at all is reason enough for you to want nothing to do with him right now.

Quote

Been reading a lot about "wayward fog" and how it pertains to the affair. Is there ever a point the LBS can or should speak to the wayward to say "hey you have another choice."?

No, that's a "temperature check" and just reassures him you are still Plan B. Plan B never gets moved to Plan A. You have to cease to be an option before he realizes what he's lost.

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Or is the best advice to still leave them to their own devices let go and "hope" they make the choice to turn back?

Yes.

Quote

I definitely love the phrase my marriage may be in limbo but I am not.

Right! That's a great mantra to have.

Thanks AS for the affirmation. KNOWING something is the right move and FEELING it is can be two different things entirely. I've been a bit emotionally up and down this weekend. Being able to come here and let all the what if's and maybes out is very helpful. I know I'm not plan B. I am plan ONLY. Being plan A implies there is still an alternative. He's just got his head in the sand. Or up his.....

I agree with AS. It sounds like there is drama with OW and that will only get worse in time! OW often tend to be jealous and insecure. They know there is a W in the picture that he chose initially and didn't have this crap-y adulterous R with.

That was certainly the case in my sitch! OW and I had been "friends" (obvi she was never a friend) for years and she knew how my H felt about me and our family. She was always jealous. She knew that he was just using the A to escape our difficult and stressful life (we had a lot going on). She also knew (as they both did) that they could not trust each other, as they were both capable of cheating. He found her needy and annoying, but also she became the only friend that supported him during this messy time. She also flattered him and tried very hard to "get him" in a real R with her. It was a huge mess and all drama. He felt stuck with his bad decision (there was pride too), and thought I would never truly forgive him, and he was afraid he had ruined any chance with me. But he also found her increasingly annoying, which caused him to miss me more. It eventually all spiraled downhill and he couldn't stand her anymore. This happened around the time that I dropped the rope and started to move on. He flipped and did a very fast turnaround when he realized I wasn't waiting anymore ...

Goddess, I think you know what to do here and you seem to be naturally following the DB rules. No, it's not easy tho! I can relate to those feelings of anger -- even when you are out GAL, and realizing there are other options or men, but you know that you only want H. It svcks and feels bad. I even tried to go on a few dates during my separation, but it just didn't feel right to me and I knew I was using it (them) as a distraction. Meanwhile, H had a full on relationship with OW and here I was feeling bad about some meaningless dates. Ugh.

It can be confusing to send two opposite messages simultaneously -- 1. I am not plan B and am moving on with my life, and 2. if you end your A, I might be willing to give you another chance. .... I think you can only go with the first. If, and only if, he comes to you and has ended the A, shows you proof and remorse, and is asking for another chance, then you can entertain the second. ... In the mean time, keep pulling further and further back. His drama with OW should eventually spiral. You get to hold your head up high and remain plan A, that may or may not even want him later. ...

My only real regrets are that I let them (him and OW) control my emotions so much. I hate that I gave them that power over me. I wish that I had held my head up and taken the higher road. There were so many times I lost my cool. You seem to have a better grasp on that.

Blu

Need a quick opinion.

H just text me for the first time in days. First was about the new cc. I answered that with a simple no since it is technically financial. Then asked about my job prospect. I didnt respond to that. Now he just sent a message about his final class grade. Do I ignore? Or send a simple congrats? I don't want to play games but I don't want him cake eating either. I don't want to burn bridges.

I haven't said anything to him yet. One side of me says this is a huge accomplishment for him and he's been working towards this promotion for years. The other side says let tbe OW validate him.

Originally Posted by Goddess8

I haven't said anything to him yet. One side of me says this is a huge accomplishment for him and he's been working towards this promotion for years. The other side says let tbe OW validate him.

I can't tell you the right answer; that is in your heart and head.

Me personally tells my W when she has some great achievement something to the effect of "That is really great." She fishes for compliments a lot, always has, but im not going to stroke her ego with effusive praise at this time. Just give her a simple acknowledgement of her achievement without giving an ego boost. That is what I do.

Validate feelings, not things. So he sent you a grade for his class. No validation needed, but acknowledgement that he accomplished something is appropriate I think. Hope that is helpful!

Well I decided to congratulate him. It came from a place of sincerity. I would rather be able to look back and know I did the right thing for me than regret it. If we were divorced I'd still be proud of him and would say so. No matter the personal hurt he's caused he still worked hard and earned this promotion. So the higher road I'll walk. And besides not feeling appreciated was a complaint early on.... 180 maybe from me? Although I believe most of his emotional complaints were justifications for OW.

On the flip side of that he text me more in the last couple of days than the last week. No expectations of course just observations.

I agree with LB; you probably know the right answer somewhere in your head and heart. If it was a 180 for you, then it seems like the right move. I find it hard to advise people on the specifics because I cannot take into account the nuances that exist in their interpersonal dynamic. Sometimes these subtle differences between our sitches can get lost here; because let's face it, none of us really know each other, our personalities, details in our M histories, etc. My advice is slightly generic based on DB principles, and of course it is biased due to my own sitch.

My best advice I have, is that when in doubt of what to do, less is always more, and no response at all is better than the one you cannot decide on. Second, when deciding on how to respond, put your head above your heart. Why? Because your heart is broken right now! When we respond based on emotion, it is often coming from a place of fear. It is also from a place of expectations. It is much safer to respond using your head -- the logic without emotions -- and your most reasonable self knows this if you can access that.

When I didn't know how to respond to H after DB, I gave myself some time. I learned that there were a few things I did that led to me feeling better about my responses. Those things were 1. giving time in formulating the response, 2. responding in a genuine way and without expectations of how he should receive it or respond back, 3. making sure there was zero cake involved, 4. not showing my cards (emotions, thoughts or plans), 5. Taking back my integrity, not being petty, so that I could hold my head up high and have less regrets. ... maybe see if this works for you next time.

So he is texting you more now? Of course he is. WHs are so predictable. Classic. SMH.

Blu

Thanks y'all I appreciate the sounding board. I know it can be hard to advise online. To pull a classic card I blame monthly hormones :)~ Feeling much more me today thankfully.

Blu your last sentence made me lol for sure. They really do seem to follow a script in so many ways. I have to say I think overall it's easier to deal in these situations with the S out of the house. At least in my sitch. WAY less drama.

So update for today.

H was texting D11 asking what we were up to(not sure who started the convo). We were out to lunch with a friend and her kids. Well he was in old town at mechanic shop and was going to head to our town and asking if we wanted to meet him. Well curiosity might kill the cat, but ok I'll bite. Meet up at store after lunch. Picked up a few things H paid. Drove back to my house in separate cars. He proceeded to hang out for a couple hours. Joked with kids and dogs. Joked with me and had nornal conversation. My new cc came in and he set that all up. Curiouser and couriouser. Then when he finally left about 20 mins ago he hugged the kids and said by love y'all. He lingered at the door STARING AT ME until I looked up and he said see y'all later.

I have no expectations at this point. But wow.

Oh and tranfered most of his education benefits to the kids and ME. w t f.... I swear I am going to change my name to Alice because I have just fell down a rabbit hole.

I think the only thing to say to that is curiouser and curiouser!
Hopefully his A is falling apart, keep being your goddess self

Originally Posted by Goddess8

Drove back to my house in separate cars. He proceeded to hang out for a couple hours. Joked with kids and dogs. Joked with me and had nornal conversation. My new cc came in and he set that all up. Curiouser and couriouser. Then when he finally left about 20 mins ago he hugged the kids and said by love y'all. He lingered at the door STARING AT ME until I looked up and he said see y'all later.

I have no expectations at this point. But wow.

Very predictable behavior. This is classic "cake-eating". He's missing the old family life a little and wants to get a "hit" of it before he goes back to his adulterous ways.

Blu said this earlier and it is spot on:

Quote

It can be confusing to send two opposite messages simultaneously -- 1. I am not plan B and am moving on with my life, and 2. if you end your A, I might be willing to give you another chance. .... I think you can only go with the first. If, and only if, he comes to you and has ended the A, shows you proof and remorse, and is asking for another chance, then you can entertain the second. ... In the mean time, keep pulling further and further back.

Next time he wants to come over to "hang out" then tell him you don't feel comfortable with him doing that anymore. You've got to shut down the cake-eating or it will go on indefinitely and he will never learn to miss you.

Goddess: what happened before when you pulled back? Pretty sure you're cementing that you're plan B if you're encouraging him to come over and play happy families and then go back to his mistress. Shouldn't you be tripping out the door in a cloud of eau de goddess? By all means let him see what he's missing but that might have been too much...
(says dilly who is seriously crap at this but can at least see it in others)

Morning dilly.

Whenever I pull back he comes closer. Since May when OW came home that was when I went at least dim. I don't talk to him. I dont initiate conversation or reach out to him. Ive posted here pretty much everytime he's said something to me since then. Minus the absolutely useless

If I'm supposed to do more of whats working and avoid cheeseless tunnels then me not talking to him works. If I am supposed to sit quietly and watch to see if his renewed interest is genuine then I am. It seems to be slow but positive movement forward. Clearly something has to be shifting in him if he's been texting me more this past week. Maybe I'm being nieve. Hope can be a cruel mistress. Everyone says actions over words. Well if his LL is gifts and he's been doing all these things then... Do people who want to divorce usually give their LBS a new opened ended amex? Do they tranfer mil edu benefits to not only the kids but LBS as well? I don't want to be obtuse here but I also don't want to miss a small effort from him.

He came to my town and house out of the blue. It didnt make me uncomfortable. Him being there didnt stop me from doing my own thing around the house. Just because he showed up doesnt mean I am going to be chased out of my own house mid day when I'd just gotten back from town and a GALing lunch with a friend. It had been about two weeks since he'd seen the kids. I don't see how allowing that is cake eating. I was casual accountant like. Friendly but detached. Isnt that the goal? To be lovingly detached? And isn't detachement for our personal emotional health? If his shenanigans don't bother me isnt that good? I did at least look good while he was around. I was casual but I'd done my makeup and curled my hair(which I don't usually do). I know I looked good.

Idk Maybe I have too much hope. Maybe I am being naive. Everyone says only talk to them if it's about kids or finances. Well I have been dealing almost solely with both for years. So as long as there is money in the account I don't have a need to contact him. Am I supposed to stop ALL conversation at this point? I thought that level of dark was for once they get their divorce and still try to draw the LBS into their drama. I know he's moved out and has OW still as far as I know. I don't talk about her or mention anything to do with her. I am just doing me. 180's galing and all. Building my emotional strength. Isn't dropping the rope letting go of the idea of control and not letting their emotional bs affect us? Is it essentially being done to the point of not caring if we get back together? Is that my problem? Am I not apathetic? I do still care and I do hope. And I know if the work is put in the new marriage would be worth it.

It would be so much easier for me to handle if he was being an a$$. But he's not. He's "just" still in an affair. And thats another thing. There are conflicting options and advice about them coming back. Some say the affair has to be completely over and the ow withdrawl processed. Others says they could lack the strength to fully leave the ow until making attempts to return home. The monkey branch analogy but in reverse. No wonder its so confusing. LBS want to do what "works" but what works in one sitch might be different in another.

Gah! Y'all if I need a 2x4 please give it to me. I'm trying not to read anything into his behavior but at the same time watch for any signs of improvement.

Sorry for the ramblimg and sideways tangent Dilly. I've been doing a lot of thinking the last couple of days.

It is awfully confusing isn't it? Because on the one hand maybe he's not feeling like coming back, maybe he's just temp checking and seeing that you're still there for him. But I agree that it must be hard for them to ditch the OW and be alone in the hope that you'll have them back. That's a big risk, to be alone, so at some stage if he wants to come back then he will creep towards you and you don't want to be too rejecting that he feels like there's no chance.

I have no advice, I'm CADG remember, but I just want you to be careful, I'm sure you are thinking hard about all this and won't keep your expectations too high xx

dilly, I actually LOL when I read your posts about realizing it in others but still being CAGD. "(says dilly who is seriously crap at this but can at least see it in others)" HAHA. I actually know what you mean. We have all experienced that at one time or another. I think the great thing about posting here is that as we read other posters' sitches and give them advice, it does force us to look at our own sitch and if we are taking our own advice. On that note, I just left you a giant 2*4 on your thread. You're welcome for that :-)

And I will remind you all that I did not even post during my separation. I read here daily, but could not bring myself to create an account and open myself up. I was a huge mess and I am sure would have been whacked over the head daily. My struggles were different tho. I only allowed cake eating in the very beginning. Then when I realized what I was doing (serving cake) by allowing family time and showing my vulnerability (allowing R talks and showing my emotions), while he was having an A, I then did a 180. And I swung far in the other direction to the point of ignoring him at times and even being cold or indifferent. It took me some time again, to readjust, to actually following the rules.

And I believe it was me finally following the DB philosophy that led to him ending his A and coming back. I showed hm that I was moving on and would be fine without him, but I was pleasant and detached when he initiated contact. He had to see that he was losing me before wanting me again. That is a theme I have read here again and again. You cannot nice them back or show them what they are losing -- you have to start to detach and move on, while remaining strong and confident that you don't need them.

There has been some talk lately about when to go dark (minimal to no contact) verses allowing more pleasant interactions in hopes that they will "see what they are missing." This can be difficult to address because there are variations in our sitches. It is a fine line, but I do think there is a way to do both. I believe that I was able to do this, but the timing is everything. It also depends on the dynamic in our sitches and little nuances. However, I am reading more cake eating than anything in most of the posters here. You do not have to SHOW them anything, but as you detach, 180, GAL on your own, they will become curious and peek over their shoulder. You do not need to have family time or time together to remind them of anything -- that is FALSE! That is CAKE. They know what they had before! They have not forgotten. They just rewrite history to justify their cr-p behaviors. ... They need to actually lose it to miss it ...

Goddess, you said "It would be so much easier for me to handle if he was being an a$$. But he's not. He's "just" still in an affair." .... In my opinion him being in an affair is honestly the worst assault on his M. It is not a simple distraction, it is a HUGE breach of trust, a broken commitment, and he tore apart his family over it. He left his W for some OW. My H was actually quite pleasant and kind in our interactions too and really wasn't an a$$ either. It didn't change the fact that he was a lying, cheating, selfish, jerk! Him being "nice" did not outweigh the bigger picture. I actually think it was all a part of his Nice Guy personality and those guys are dangerous. His mom hit the nail on the head when he was having his A -- she said "he is a wolf in sheep's clothing."

So I reserve my position that you are still in the LRT and you should continue to go dark and pull back. It is okay for him to start thinking he is losing you. He needs to miss you before he realizes what he could stand lose.

Blu

Yes, I like to keep you chuckling, Blu

I agree that 'just' being in an affair is unacceptable. You deserve better, after all you are a goddess, right? And you're right about detachment, you need to be detached enough to be ok no matter what, but not so detached that you shut the door on him forever.

So yes, accept his gifts with thanks and the kind of gratitude you'd give anyone else, but don't read too much into it, you'll only end up disappointed if it's just a temp check. At some stage he might keep giving more and more and make it obvious that he wants R rather than to check in on plan B, but he's not there yet is he? For starters you're assuming the OW is still in the picture...

Blu,

Can you give me some advice on how to limit contact while still living together? We play family every day, because we are a family. We still make dinner together, do the dished together, put the kids to bed together. These are my 180s, even though I think I was pulling my weight before, and she is using this stuff to justify her desire to leave. I think that is her rewriting the history of our marriage.

Originally Posted by Destroyd

I need help with this too

That's great advice from Blu, I was formulating a reply in my head but she pretty much said everything I was going to

DB'ing isn't a once-size-fits-all approach. You have to tinker with it to make it work for your particular sitch. But at the same time you have to be very careful not to use that personal modifying as an excuse to pursue. It's fine to be polite and friendly but don't cross the line into constantly confirming to him that you are Plan B. You don't have to be cold/ rude/ indifferent but at the same time he needs to feel he is losing you. Like Blu said it's a balancing act. That's why these forums are so helpful, we can let you know if you're going too far

Originally Posted by Destroyd

It is very, very difficult to go dim or dark while living under the same roof. I don't want to say it's "impossible" because TXHubby did it. But in his case he finally got fed up with his cheating wife and said "forget her, I'm going to live and enjoy my life and I am completely excluding her from it" and that's exactly what he did. Note that he made no announcement to her, did not tell her he had an epiphany, did not threaten to leave her, did not give her an ultimatum. He simply quit caring about her and changed his life THROUGH HIS ACTIONS. 99% of LBS's here simply don't have the intestinal fortitude to do it. Even he didn't for quite some time, but when he finally did it he was all in. He went out and GAL'd and lost weight and dressed better and never said one word to her about any of it. The more he did it the more she got curious and temp checked him. He did not so much as acknowledge her temp checks. He was DONE. Eventually she dropped OM and begged him to take her back. He had a hard time with that, he really was truly done with her by then. They did reconcile but he maintained his new alpha status even after they did.

I feel for all of you in IHS's. It's absolutely miserable. It's hard as hell to DB while under the same roof, eating the same meals, taking care of the kids together, etc. All I can tell you is forget about going dim or dark, you just can't. So while you're under the same roof just keep trying to show them what they will be missing. If and when they leave don't fight it, because even though it may not feel like it they are doing you a favor. That's when the real DB'ing and growth begins.

Ok y'all confession time... I was horribly hung over yesterday. Went out Saturday night to support a friend whose H is also exhibiting GGW wayward behavior. Well to make a long story short a lightweight like myself should pay attention to how many inperial pints they drink. Ahem 4 later. Ouch. To add a little funny to the story I had several guys actively hitting on me throughout the night. One guy even went so far as to tell me he thought I was pretty. Thanks guy. He was butt hurt I didnt reciprocate. Too bad love, life is full of disappointment. I never gave the I'm interested vibe. But overall I felt better being out this time. We were able to laugh and talk to people. So yay going out and being around adults boo hangover.

I am honestly starting to think my biggest issue is overthinking. I worry how H percieves something I do or say or dont say. How is he reacting to my going dark(ish). What is going to make him come out of the fog? Is he wayward or MLC? Does it matter? Do I have months or years? Does it matter? I have made huge inroads to myself this past year. I think at this point what I fear most in detaching completely, dropping the rope, letting go and all that isnt that he might not come back it's that once I am DONE that's it for me. I'm standing and not done done. And yes I absolutely agree the affair is the worst. I was being facetious with the "just" part. Sometimes i feel as if I haven't made my feeling about it known. Then the other side of my says he darn well knows I am not ok with him having an affair. He's apologized for it in past months. But we know the difference between guilt and true remorse. Can't be too remorseful if you are still with the OW. Yes I do wish I'd gone dark when he'd moved out. Sometimes I feel like we feed each other cake.

Speaking of cake and the current "what my H bought me" thread. He has been asking what the kids and I had planned for the fourth. He was thinking of doing something with them but didnt want to get in the way of anything I had planned. I didn't really have anything but had thought of a beach day. Well he sent a two night hotel option. Well I didnt say anything but ok. Saturday night he asked if I'd thought about the beach and sent the hotel again. I bit and asked for who. He said either. I responded with an ok. Didn't say anything else as I was GALing as mentioned above. Then yesterday blah... Today he asked AGAIN. Well tbh if he wants to pay with points or whatever for the kids and me to have a small beach trip then coolbeans. Then even offered to watch the dogs. Got a little grumpy when I said I hadnt wanted to assume he'd want to drive the hour one way here a couple times a day or spend the night here. Apparently I did assume it was just negative... Really? I can't imagine. I just responded I didnt like to impose. Shoulda left it alone I'm sure. But if you don't want me putting words in your mouth don't do it to me. I chalk it up to wanting to be seen as the good guy. Thats the first even remotely negative thing he's said in months to me.

Would it be redundant to tell him no one but him is allowed at my house while he's watching the dogs? As a normal rational person I would say it was understood. But...

I'm glad to hear about the fun evening out with adults, the hangover isn't so good!
I think we all overthink on here, trying not to overthink is really hard and not something I have got a handle on yet. I'm naturally a thinker, I like to understand how things work and am used to always analysing everything. Trying to switch that off and just accept things is difficult! Maybe stupid people are lucky, lol.

Has he been to your house alone before? Do you have an alternative dog sitter? I don't know, the paying for you to go away is a bit weird. What is his LL? Is he a controlling person? There could be LOTS of explanations for his behaviour, including some negative ones. How do we stop the mind reading?

Man, I wish I could stop overthinking! I feel like I am playing a never ending game of three dimensional chess. This is because in the back of my mind, I still think that I can "fix" my wife. I see that she is confused and depressed. Everything in my being wants to help her, but I don't know how. I am the LAST person she wants help from, and I don't really know why that is the case. So, you are not alone in the overthinking. I think every one of us on these forums does it. We wouldn't be here if we weren't overthinkers.

I read the reddit divorce sub reddit, and I am amazed at how different of a place it is compared to here. On that sub reddit, once a spouse says ILYBIANILWY, the LBS immediately accepts divorce. It seems like there is no fighting for the marriage. That is so different from this forum. We are all standing. We are all overthinking.

Well the kids and I made it to the beach. H showed up very early this morning. Was chatty and hovering while I did my hair. In The. Bathroom. Weird. Talked about how the bathroom could be remodeled. Its 1970's but at least decent. Did his typical wonder around the house. Made coffee. All very comfortable behaviour for someone thats never lived in this house. I guess as a mil family we've lived in a lot of places and adjust pretty easy. Apparently he referred to me as his wife when calling the hotel to make sure my name was on the reservation. Not sure if he could have called me anything else... who knows. He's been texting me all day off and on while working on the truck. All I know is Im going to enjoy this gifted time with my kids.

Enjoy your break, goddess. I trust you are giggling away at all his clumsy temp checking and not taking it too seriously

Goddess - I feel you are in a good place with this. I am new to the forum and will be posting my story soon. I too question how to interact in a positive manner. It's easy to keep doing the same thing but that is not how you facilitate change. I also share your fear of detaching too much to the point where I can't go back from all that has happened.

Hey all.

It's been a bit since I posted. The last couple of weeks have been interesting. I hardly even know where to start. Short version he asked to come HOME on Sunday after picking the kids up for a glamping trip. After a very emotional week and being triggered on my end I had taken off my rings. I didnt do it to get a reaction out of him but because I had started to feel like it was a lie. He'd come over hang out be helpful then go back to the OW. My hope was begining to be questioned. I got tired of the random texts that meant nothing. I quit responding again. So after days of me not responding to him and then coming over and seeing no rings he seemed to have an epiphany. Or lost his mind as the kids called it. He spent hours talking to them, reminiscing about us. Crying in front of them out of loss and fear. Telling them about the affair. Although he seemed to minimize it with them. He said he made the biggest mistake of his life and didnt think I would want him back and didnt deserve to be allowed back. He was terried of asking me and talking. He wanted the kids to talk to me for him. Of course they said no. Again long story short him and I ended up talking on the phone. We spent 3 hours plus on the phone talking. He apologized more times than i can count. Said ILY more than I've heard in a year. Asked if I could forgive him. Asked if he could come home. I of course told him it would require work on both our parts. NC with ow. That if he wasn't ready for that he wasnt ready. He listened to me and validated MY anger. It felt like a very productive conversation. OW called and or text him the entire time we were on the phone. He ignored her completely and even got pissed she wouldnt take a hint and leave him alone. He told me she is very affraid because he talks about me and the kids to her all the time. Says he's made a terrible mistake and how much he loves and misses me. He spoke so positively and proudly of our upcoming 17 year anniversary and being together for 18. He told me he has come to realize over the last few months how much he loves me. Even though at one point he thought he didnt. He told me he has never and will never love anyone more than he loves me. That out of everyone in the world I know him the best. That if he could go back he would never get himself in a position like he did.

I don't know how to handle things from here. Him and S15 are at his apt for the rest of the week hanging out. He borrowed a tv from here (if I never mentioned it he has been using ow tv and game console) when he brought the kids back from their trip Wednesday. Eventually said he had to get back to make sure all his stuff was still there. I aksed what he meant. He claimed he'd had an inspection while he was gone. Could be. Or could have been worried ow took or broke stuff. Heck could have been both. Then like I said come back yesterday to pick up son. Him having any of the kids more than a day since she's been back is unheard of. He's been talking to me daily since Sunday. Confessed to me last night he thinks he's an alcoholic. Apparently he drank over half a bottle of vodka the night before and still "crushed" the gym yesterday with S15. He's always been a drinker. Military life kinda dictates that. I think he's struggling with what he knows is right and what he wants (His family and marriage) and the limerant affair fog feelings for the OW.

He signed a lease for the apt but should be able to get out of it if he choses. He obviously needs to pack up the apt and sell or donate furniture (cause that bed isnt comimg here). I guess my most pressing question is how long do I give him before bringing moving home back up? I put my rings back on and am all in, but I wont be made a fool of. No fence sitting allowed. I told him I know he can't just turn off emotions and is going to have to work through them. I told him we need to work through what lead him down the affair path in the first place. I hope I didn't overwhelm him, but he was so earnest and receptive. The was a little attempt on his part to minimize things but I shut it down. Told him if he's going to lie to just shut his mouth. But I knew the truth and what I've been dealing with the past year. He needed to start by at least being honest with himself. I didnt need the lying and minimizing. He did immediately stop and didnt try again. I heard him say everything I've wanted to hear since all this started. I've been working on healing me. I made the choice to forgive him months ago. It's a long road. I feel emotionally lighter since our talk and finally being able to put voice to anger about the affair. Now no matter what he KNOWS how I felt. No more feeling like I've been complacent about his involvement with the ow. I feel now the real healing for me can begin because I can own my anger.

My kids have been handling the OW revelation remarkably well. Like I said he's minimized it in what im guessing is his attempt to not be completely the bad guy to them. Bless them they were more worried about protecting me from it. They are still processing. Little things have connected like dots for them. Like the tv and her car. As a family I still believe we can come back from all this. With time and work.

On a silly final note. When they were leaving for their trip we were standing in the foyer talking waiting for D11. The teens were joking around about S15 chin hair and how bad it looks. He of course tried playing it cool and acting like it was an epic beard. My H currently has some scruffy stubble (Ive always found it sexy). Well I took both hands and rubbed his cheeks. Still joking with S15 saying his isnt as cool as dad's. I wasn't paying attention to H. Or apparently to his reaction. I havent voluntarily touched him directly in months. As I was told later my him and the kids (who called him out for his reaction) he melted under my touch. He said he was shaking. Kids said his eyes were huge and be looked like he was going to faint. In the words of D14 Dad was shook. I never even noticed.

Wow. It definitely sounds like he is starting to change his tune. I recall those early days and the excitement/relief/fear and surreal experience. I am traveling today and not able to sit at a computer and give a thorough reply, but I wanted to at least say a couple things.

Please read the piecing thread that Sandi started. There are some valuable points in there, even if you are not piecing yet. Maybe read it several times.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2832573

I am getting a sense that you are moving too quickly and allowing him close to you far, far too quickly. I think that is the most common mistake that people make and I did the same thing, unfortunately. In hindsight, I can see how much that hurt me and our situation. In fact, over time, that is what caused more obstacles and ultimately set us back.

Your H betrayed you in the worst way possible. Honestly, it is the one of the worst things a man can do to his wife and children. He is starting to realize that and is overcome with emotions and guilt. He should be!!! .... Here is the thing tho � his overwhelming feelings of regret and shame does not translate into him becoming a better husband. Not at all! Look at his actions in the last couple years. What actions and changes has he made to be a good person now and for how long has he made these changes??? Really, really let that sink in.

The way to recover a marriage (well, decide to start over really, while shoveling through the damage) is basically just hard work. It is daily blood, sweat and tears. It is a decision each morning to wake up and work. By work I mean be the best person you can be, exercise extreme patience, keep your emotional roller coaster in check (the good and bad), learn to handle triggers (they are everywhere), learn to listen to him and continue to validate, keep your standards of what you expect from him high. Because I�m telling you now, once you get comfortable with him back, you will be piszed off in ways and to extremes you didn�t know possible ... and if you�re not, well then that is just strange.

Basically, you can�t just jump back into it. That will backfire! You may both be feeling strongly, perhaps magnetically, at the prospect of being together again, but those feelings of relief are short lived. Maybe a couple weeks or months. You cannot ignore the past and that he is not trustworthy. His actions cannot be erased. He has to show you a man that deserves your trust and love FIRST before you interact with him in loving ways. Do not lower yourself and your standards in that way. Demand that he show you his changes before giving yourself back to him. So he feels like a royal POS for having an A and leaving you. He should, but does that mean you just take him back? And he was trying to use the kids to get the message across? I�m sorry, but that is cowardly.

I would never advise putting your rings back on, talking to him and spending time with him frequently, or planning any future together. He has to SHOW you he has changed FIRST. And that takes a long time or consistent actions, not tears. He has shown you remorse and that is the first step. But he has to show you why he is ready to be trusted and forgiven. Him crying to you and ignoring OW is just that � him crying and ignoring her.

Blu

Hey Blu! Always solid advice and very much appreciated. I have read and reread your post and also the entire piecing thread. I had looked for something on here but couldnt seem to find it. I knew there had to be somerhing on piecing. Is there anything more in depth on how to handle reconciliation? I understant its all about patience. I can also see how easy it is to get impatient. As the LBS we've been working on ourselves (hopefully) and standing for months if not way longer. Its so easy to want to push things along.

I am begining to come to the conclusion that I naturally have more empathy for others than most. I am more introspective and self aware than most. I hope those traits work to my benefit and not detriment. Yes he cheated and it's horrible. And I will never minimize the impact of an affair. I am dealing with triggers daily( I'll come back to that). But I also think that as an LBS that chose to stand we have made the decision to forgive our spouse. At least that's how I see it. We KNOW they are having or have had an affair. Therefore we know there is going to have to be forgiveness in our hearts and minds toward them. That is for us more than them. So we can let go. They have a ton of work to do on themselves and so do we. We all have choices to make. I am chosing to forgive and start purging my anger and resentments. I don't like feeling ugly and torn up inside. I know I have to give myself time. Don't try to deflect and minimize what I feel. Face it head on and feel things and process it fully. Then accpet I felt that way and let it go. Maybe it seems I am oversimplifying things. I'm just long since ready to be done being angry.

Back to being triggered... I found out from S15 last night while talking about H revelations to them that S15 has meet OW. Its been nearly 2 months back. She came over to the apt while son was visiting H. She was introduced as a friend and son didnt think anything of it. Bless his trusting naive heart. I was so ANGRY at H for having the audacity to bring her around one of our kids. I told him from the git go that was a big no no. But after processing I realized two things...A) I have no idea the context of how she came over. Did she show up unannounced and H didnt want to make a seen? Did she manipulate H into being allowed over? The point is I have no idea. Which leads into...B) As much as it pisses me off I was almost 2 months ago. To H it's long since gone. Sunday's epiphanies are recent and fresh. But me learning about something after the fact triggered great feelings of anger and betrayal. I cried I raged I ranted. I purged. Now today I feel annoyance. But going to him with this would I feel not help. Like in Sandi's piecing thread the S seems to see the whole situation as one big fubar session. While the LBS does seem to feel things like the death of 1000 cuts. We feel things differently because we experience things differently.

I know there is a lot of feelings and opinions about rings. I had put my rings back on prior to talking to him Sunday night. I was wearing them while talking to him and he didnt know. My rings are about me. My commitment to my marriage. My symbol of hope and love. Minus for the occasional cleaning I have never taken them off in 17 years. I was able to wear them throughout all three pregnancies. Due to his job he's spent more time without them than with them. Obviously me taking mine off affected him a lot. As much as it svcks and I have to remind myself; he has to process his feelings for the OW. He might have come to realize he never stopped loving me and loves me more than anyone and doesnt want a divorce but like it gets said all over...breaking up is hard. Limerant feelings dont just disappear. But I do believe because he moved out and left and they've had to deal with reality together its a different dynamic than if it had remained an emotional fantasy affair. Not trying to mind read him or the situation just trying to put together what I read here and other sites.

Any pearls of wisdom dealing with wayward H falling out of limerant affair fog?

It's been 48 hours since any communication with H. I am 100% sure he got wasted Saturday night. No clue if he's back in communication with OW after their falling out last week. He's yet to tell me whether or not he's broken up with her. I really don't understand how the wayward mind when it's a man works. I've read all the sitches with WW but no idea how to apply any of that to me. I don't know if it does. I sometimes feel I've wasted months thinking he was MLC. Only to figure out it's limerant waywardness. I know I am a better stronger person now than I was last year. The kids and I are so OK most days it's almost scary. To many deployments I suppose. We are used to getting along without him being around.

Is there ever an appropriate point to tell him to $#!+ or get off the pot? He's said he doesn't want a divorce. Misses his family. Wants me. Knows he f'd up big time. Didn't know if id take him back or want him at all after everything. Well now he knows where I stand. What it's going to take... No more OW period, counciling, working on past marriage problems, figuring out what lead to him having the affair. Transparency. I kinda worry I overwhelmed him. But at the same time I feel like it's a very reasonable list and normal things to ask for. He agreed to everything at the time. I know he's depressed and hates himself. Guilt is eating him alive. I know he's been drinking way too much. I can't help him he's got to be willing to help himself.

Hold your boundaries. Make him work hard to regain your trust.

This one seems important right now:
"I want to be with someone who stays sober."

Yes I agree. While I don't have any issues with the occasional drink having more than a couple at a time and doing it daily isn't good.

Is it too late after the fact to enforce a boundry previously stated about the OW contact with the kids? I feel like it might be but I just found out about it. And apparently he thinks he needs to come over to help with kids while I start new job. Should I decline his help and continue to act as if I am a single parent?

Hey!

Do you have any recent updates? Is he still telling you he is no contact with OW and wants to reconcile with you? What has he done to SHOW you that with actions? Has he offered full transparency that he is no contact with her? Has he been consistent in his commitment to do anything to make it work with you? Does he remain open and vulnerable?

The reason I told you that you are moving far, far too quickly is because I got the impression you agreed to take him back at his first signs of guilt and remorse. Yes, he came to you crying and vulnerable. Yes, he told you he made a terrible mistake and regrets it. Yes, he told you he will leave OW and wants you and his family back. ... While that appears to be a complete 180 and a shock to your system, it is really only a sign that he could come back and work on reconciling.

He has to show you he has changed first and before you agree to take him back. I get the sense from your post that he knew he could come back easily. Perhaps when he first came to you and broke down, you were not weary of his efforts? Wouldn't that be the normal reaction given that he left you for OW? I think it would have been better to let him continue to call you, express his remorse, and pursue you repeatedly for several weeks before thinking about giving him another chance. Don't you want to know that he really means what he says?

In terms of your "boundary" with him introducing the kids to OW, well what I am reading is not what a boundary is. What you are describing is more how can you control him. Yes, he introduced the kids to OW and that is terribly painful for you. I 100% agree and I would have struggled with that one too -- in fact I told my H straight up when he left that if he ever brought my kids around his A, he would never get me back. .... here is the reality tho; they do all kinds of dumb cr-p when they are limerant! You cannot go back in time and change that. You also will be learning many more dumb and disturbing things he did with her. You cannot control that. What you can do, and what you can control, is if those are dealbreakers for you now. Yes, he brought kids around OW. He might have even kissed her, held hands with her or even showed obvious signs of affection to her in front of them. Let's just assume he did all of the above. Does that mean you will not take him back now? That is all you can control -- what you do now, not what he does now or what he did back then.

You say he is still heavily drinking. I personally think you should not consider taking him back. If he were remorseful enough that he would do anything to R with you, then he should be focused on showing you his positive changes. I don't think that is possible if he is binge drinking. That is just my opinion.

You also mentioned you thought he was having a MLC verses being wayward. This is another example of why I wish these board would do away with the term MLC. It has no meaning and it is not recognized by the DSM or medical psychiatry. It is a term that we LBS use because it makes us feel better about the fact that someone up and left us. They are having a MLC. Sure, maybe they are having a crisis. But that doesn't change the reality of what they have done or excuse it. It is not even an explanation. Anyone can have a crisis for various reasons, at any point in their life time, and they may or may not leave their S because of it. It also does not make their egregious behavior any more understandable. So why even use the term at all?

He left you for OW, crisis or not. Period. It doesn't sound like he is ready to do the hard work of fixing this. I hope one day he will. In the meant time, you can continue to go dark and take care of yourself. You can also think about why him calling you can crying was enough for you to want to take him back.

Decide how you want to be treated by him now, and then until that happens, he gets nothing from you. You also have to decide that you are going to learn and accept a lot of things that will upset you and disturb you that you cannot control. If you cannot accept those things, that is your choice and you do not have to take him back.

Hugs. I feel you, sister. I don't even know how I survived. Reconciling and piecing was much harder work than Dbing IMO!

Blu