Hello all,
I am so glad that I found this group. I have been struggling for so long. As the title of my post says, I am heartbroken and struggling.
Over a year ago, the most important person in my life told me that she was unhappy with certain things in our marriage. Then at the end of 2018, she told me that she loves me, but is not in love with me and doesn't know if we can fix our relationship. I was totally blindsided that she didn't love me. I was also blindsided that we were having serious marriage problems. I always thought that we had a good marriage. We have three beautiful children and have been married for 22 years. Now we are in marriage counseling.
I have been really struggling since the beginning of this year. I have lost 50 pounds and am suffering from depression. I am crying about an hour or two a day where I am leaving work and driving around crying. Once I get home, I act as if nothing is wrong, because I don't want my kids to know about our marriage problems.
My wife and I get along really well. We almost never fight, never have during our marriage. We have almost no relationship talks outside of counseling sessions. I think she is going through a midlife crisis, and she is rewriting the history of our relationship. She says she has been unhappy for a long time, but I sure didn't know it.
So that is my situation. Please pray for me and my family. I try to turn this over to God, but I haven't been able to do it.
Thanks for listening to my story.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Destryd, sorry. Been there. Done that. didn't like it.
But the good news is you have a lot going for you. Hang in there. DB your butt off, and you might be able to pull off saving your MR.
Do you have DR? Did you read it? If not start there.
Do all of the reading Cadet linked.
See my signature, and please add one for yourself, it will help us when we advise you.
You came to the right place, we can help.
Welcome,
Sorry to read your so familiar story. You have found a great place for support.
This is all about you and your personal growth. We grow during the difficult periods of our lives. Take all your focus off of your wife and put it on you and your children.
Start by understand what is attractive to woman. Then become attractive. Start here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2846984#Post2846984Read as much as you can during this difficult time of your life.
I had an absolute terrible marriage counseling session today. I have tried to make so many 180s, but I have not made any progress in winning back my wife's love. I know this shouldn't be my expectation from the advice on this site, but it is so counterintuitive.
I love my wife and kids so much. I just don't want my family destroyed.
During the counseling session she said that she has been unhappy and lonely for so many years and is just done. I never in a million years would have thought that she has been this unhappy. I have always thought we got along really well. Sure, there were reoccurring problems by both of us, but not to the extent that I thought our marriage was in trouble. PLEASE GOD HELP ME.
Have you heard this one?
A person in an emergency (say a flood) who gets a message from God that he will rescue them.
They wait on top of the roof of their house for rescue and refuse the help of three different services offering rescue.
When they get to heaven they complain to God that he promised to rescue them and did not do it.
What does God say?
I sent you the Red Cross, then the police boat, then your neighbors…and you wouldn’t go with any of them!
This place is the top of the roof and the people posting to you are ..... the ones he is sending.
DB'ing is counter intuitive
Thanks Cadet. I really struggle with the DBing. It goes completely against my personality, but I am trying.
I read here that you have to start doing what you want to do and living the life you want to live. My problem is that I have lost myself. I don't know what I want out of life. I always thought that I wanted a loving family of 5 who I could come home to after a hard day's work and enjoy them. Now this life is being turned upside down, and I have no control over it. Somehow, I need to find myself in all of this mess.
MC sessions are pretty much just a place for the WAS to vent.
I am so sorry you are in this position Destroyd. Its a very hurtful and hard thing to deal with. Its ok that you cry and you allow yourself to be emotional. Don't bottle that up. Nothing is wrong with that.
Just remember, now its time to focus on yourself. Focus on your kids. Time to better yourself. Stop taking action trying to save your MR. Take action to better yourself for yourself and your kids. Your W may see this or she may not. But in the end you will be a much better person.
My MR did not survive. I am in the final stage of moving on with my life. I am moving out of our dream house on June 1st. I am very sad, but I know that I am the best I can be. I know that my future will be bright because I decided that it will be.
I will not let what my EXWW did to our family hold me back one bit. I will not allow her justifications interfere with my life.
This is a true test of yourself as a person. I was married for 18 years. 22 year relationship total with my EXWW. I have known nothing else besides living with my EXWW and my kids. Being a father and a husband was all I knew and I was good at it. I had my failures but I addressed them.
Take it one day at a time. Detach yourself from your WAS. Sit down and make small goals for yourself and for your kids. What are you going to do today that will better yourself and make you happy? What are you going to do today to make your kids happy?
One day at a time. Thats it. Small steps, slow progress. You got this.
Thanks Cadet. I really struggle with the DBing. It goes completely against my personality, but I am trying.
I read here that you have to start doing what you want to do and living the life you want to live. My problem is that I have lost myself. I don't know what I want out of life. I always thought that I wanted a loving family of 5 who I could come home to after a hard day's work and enjoy them. Now this life is being turned upside down, and I have no control over it. Somehow, I need to find myself in all of this mess.
Understanding that you have no control is a good, first step. This IS out of your control It takes two to make a marriage, only 1 to get a divorce. So, yes, if your W wants to you will end up D. It is time to man up, and face that as a potential reality.
So what can you control?
There is only one right answer and that is YOU! This is why the advice here is to go out and GAL. Like a madman. You should be rediscovering old hobbies you've ignored. You should be meeting new friends and trying new things. You should be going out and finding yourself, just as you say!
But you need to work on detachment. Please study what that is. You need to be emotionally in control around your W. No crying, begging, pleading. No walking around being sad, and withdrawn. But upbeat. Pleased. Confident. Even happy! Detachment is about controlling your emotions and getting to a new emotional balance. And think about it, no one should have control over your emotions, not even your W!
You mention 180s. I am afraid you are probably 180ing in the wrong ways. We all do that at first. 180s are about self-improvement, They are not about becoming a maid for your W. Or following her around professing your love. That stuff may have worked pre-BD, now they make you look sad and pathetic. Wives lose attraction for their Hs because they lose respect for their Hs. Doing her dishes, laundry, clothes washing will not cause her to respect you. Following her around like a lost puppy dog, professing your love and being sad over what she is doing to you will not cause her to respect you. So do things that command respect, and attraction will follow.
Find that alpha. Even in your posts I am detected an omega. Be an alpha. Go out and GAL. Take care of yourself and your needs.
Oh, and one thing that I would HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY suggest it to stop the MC. Today go to her confidently, not angrily or sadly, and say:
"I do not think MC is effective for me. However, I feel that I need to work on myself so I am going to stop MC and start IC."
Do not ask if you should. Just state it that you have already made the decision. Become that alpha male that is decisive, and interested in self improvement.
Now Destroyd, I am going to give you one of the things I learned in the first week after my BD that changed my outlook. It is a simple catch phrase that is very deep in its meaning and wisdom:
"Let her go to get her back."
Think about that. You can't control her. You can't stop the D. So just let go, accept it, and start to move on emotionally.
So GAL. Work on detaching. And 180 in the right, healthy ways.
Steve85,
You are completely right that I am doing the 180s wrong. I am doing everything that I think my wife will like. I am buying here massages, flowers, doing the dishes, etc. I am in the denial stage and still think that I can win back her love like I was dating her again. I also don't feel I am in the right frame of mind to let her go. I know I need to, but boy that is hard. I won her love doing certain things, and it is so counterintuitive to think that I shouldn't keep doing those things. It is also confusing because they say what you didn't do in you marriage that got you to this point, so you want to correct those complaints.
Steve, how were you able to focus on working? I am having such a hard time focusing. I am just so sad.
Have you ever tried to hold on to a wet bar of soap?
The harder you squeeze the harder it is to hold on to it.
Steve85,
You are completely right that I am doing the 180s wrong. I am doing everything that I think my wife will like. I am buying here massages, flowers, doing the dishes, etc. I am in the denial stage and still think that I can win back her love like I was dating her again. I also don't feel I am in the right frame of mind to let her go. I know I need to, but boy that is hard. I won her love doing certain things, and it is so counterintuitive to think that I shouldn't keep doing those things. It is also confusing because they say what you didn't do in you marriage that got you to this point, so you want to correct those complaints.
Steve, how were you able to focus on working? I am having such a hard time focusing. I am just so sad.
I didn't. My work suffered bad for weeks. It was hard because I had just come off a stellar year where I was a top performer performer and rewarded handsomely for it.
If you have a good relationship with your boss I would tell them you're going through some things personally and will do your best to but let it affect your work. But that you may need some flexibility.
Destroyd
Mine suffered for months. I just wanted to stare at a wall. I lead 450 people and I just wanted to sit in a corner most days. I had to tell the boss because they needed to know. I told a few select folks at work I could trust that I needed time and space and some help covering my load. Everyone stepped up to the plate to help, especially those that had been through a divorce before.
I'd encourage you to at least inform someone in your supervisory structure what is going on. You don't have to give them all the gory details, but it may help get some space, some grace for you from them, and you may find that people come out of the woodwork to empathize when you are ready.
Sorry that you are here, this is just the worst. We are here for each other, im glad you are posting here, it has helped me tremendously just to vent and learn where I need to improve.
Unfortunately, my company has just been bought out. As I go through this, I am scared of getting laid off. My boss has been let go, and I don't have anyone to go to. The timing couldn't be worse. I feel like I have been barely performing since January.
The first day back to work after the bomb drop felt like it lasted for about a week. Everything was in SLOW MOTION. I should have been fired.
Start to compartmentalize. Focus on work at work. If you catch yourself drifting to personal stuff, "I will deal with that this evening".
Definitely focus on the most important parts of your job first. Prioritize. Let the less important things slide if needed.
Today go to her confidently, not angrily or sadly, and say:
"I do not think MC is effective for me. However, I feel that I need to work on myself so I am going to stop MC and start IC."
Practice this alone if needed.
Direct eye contact. Hold it until she breaks contact. Two tones deeper than you normal speak. Slower pace.
You should become a man of few words and much action around your W. Think Clint Eastwood.
I feel that it would really be a step backwards for me to stop MC. It seems really important to my wife, even though I don't think that it is really helping anything. In her mind, it is a safe space to talk. She is afraid of conflict, so she likes have the mediator in the room.
I feel that it would really be a step backwards for me to stop MC. It seems really important to my wife, even though I don't think that it is really helping anything. In her mind, it is a safe space to talk. She is afraid of conflict, so she likes have the mediator in the room.
You know why it's important to her? So that she can tell her kids later "we tried everything, even MC". I think deep down you know this is true. This is the only reason a woman that is "done" attends MC.
Destroyed, you know what worked in my sitch? Doing the opposite of what my W expected. The day I told her I had spoken to a lawyer she looked like she had seen a ghost. She never expected me to do something that seemingly moved towards divorce, not away from it. When I was behaving the way she expected she ran headlong towards leaving me and getting a D. When I started DBing, as counter intuitive as it was, was when I'd see her start back tracking on her resolve to leave.
Destroyd, many have tried to do what is intuitive, but hey few find success that way.
I feel that it would really be a step backwards for me to stop MC. It seems really important to my wife, even though I don't think that it is really helping anything. In her mind, it is a safe space to talk. She is afraid of conflict, so she likes have the mediator in the room.
Two things stand out:
"This is not helping anything." Then you, as the man, need to "decided" not to go.
You need to be safe to talk to. That means shut up and listen with full attention on her and validate when she comes to you to talk. Follow all the DB rules and do not initiate. Do not let her disrespect you.
If your wife has already dropped the bomb, can using the love languages still help?
As long as you do them in a non-needy way, maybe.
The biggest issue 99% of the time is there is OM. Or at least a fantasy of one.
The best thing you can do is increase Alpha male traits. Change your behavior. Change your look. Change your beliefs. Change your thought processes. Change your voice.
I feel that it would really be a step backwards for me to stop MC. It seems really important to my wife, even though I don't think that it is really helping anything. In her mind, it is a safe space to talk. She is afraid of conflict, so she likes have the mediator in the room.
You know why it's important to her? So that she can tell her kids later "we tried everything, even MC". I think deep down you know this is true. This is the only reason a woman that is "done" attends MC.
I am scared that you are right Steve, but why do you think I will be better off stopping the MC? Even though I don't think it is really helping, I am not sure why stopping is better. I think in her eyes, it will look like I am not trying and this will give her further justification for D.
Journaling:
The last few nights have been so lonely in my house. I keep going to sleep around 9:30PM because I am emotionally exhausted. I feel like my wife is going through a MLC and is a WAS both at the same time. She is dressing differently, listening to pop music and rap, and focused obsessively on exercising. All she thinks about each day is getting her two hour exercise in. If she doesn't, she is miserable.
I still don't think she is having an affair, but when I read these forums, it sure seems like you guys would think she is. Even though I am still living in the same house with my wife, I sure do miss her.
I feel that it would really be a step backwards for me to stop MC. It seems really important to my wife, even though I don't think that it is really helping anything. In her mind, it is a safe space to talk. She is afraid of conflict, so she likes have the mediator in the room.
You know why it's important to her? So that she can tell her kids later "we tried everything, even MC". I think deep down you know this is true. This is the only reason a woman that is "done" attends MC.
I am scared that you are right Steve, but why do you think I will be better off stopping the MC? Even though I don't think it is really helping, I am not sure why stopping is better. I think in her eyes, it will look like I am not trying and this will give her further justification for D.
Typical LBS fear. You answered your own question: "Even though I don't think it is really helping"
Remember, do what works, don't do what doesn't work. Going to MC with a WAW going through motions never works. Remember what I said about doing things she doesn't expect. She expects that you will continue MC. So think about how it will surprise her.....and it will make her curious, if you stop it. And it will make her even more curious when you say "I need to work on myself so I am going to start IC" will make her even more curious. Curiosity breeds interest. Interest is how attraction starts.
Remember, this stuff is counter-intuitive, but what is intuitive in these sitches have a very small chance of working. Think 5%. The counter-intuitive gives you a better chance. No guarantees, as there are no such thing in these things. Remember, saving your marriage is out of your hands. It is not in your control. So work on saving yourself.....and maybe the marriage will come along as well.
Destroyd, one other thing.
When I got hit with BD I went into full research mode. I found a lot of anti-D, save your marriage experts and authors. MWD being one of them. They agreed on some things, they disagreed on some things. But universally, all of them, whether they were the "don't pressure or pursue type", or the "reconnect and work on showing love type", agreed one thing: DO NOT DO MC.
MC has a very low success rate. In fact, most of the experts said that the one thing that virtually guaranteed a D was MC.
Now if you read my threads you'll see that my W and I did MC. However, I should point out that the MC we did was less MC and more IC for me with her present. MC should be reserved for couples with both people committed to saving the marriage. Once she got on board then our sessions transitioned to more traditional MC.
Steve, and others, what makes you think his W is going through the motions? I didn't read that she mentioned divorce.
I had an absolute terrible marriage counseling session today. I have tried to make so many 180s, but I have not made any progress in winning back my wife's love. I know this shouldn't be my expectation from the advice on this site, but it is so counterintuitive.
I love my wife and kids so much. I just don't want my family destroyed.
During the counseling session she said that she has been unhappy and lonely for so many years and is just done.I never in a million years would have thought that she has been this unhappy. I have always thought we got along really well. Sure, there were reoccurring problems by both of us, but not to the extent that I thought our marriage was in trouble. PLEASE GOD HELP ME.
Ovr, see bolded line.
I had an absolute terrible marriage counseling session today. I have tried to make so many 180s, but I have not made any progress in winning back my wife's love. I know this shouldn't be my expectation from the advice on this site, but it is so counterintuitive.
I love my wife and kids so much. I just don't want my family destroyed.
During the counseling session she said that she has been unhappy and lonely for so many years and is just done.I never in a million years would have thought that she has been this unhappy. I have always thought we got along really well. Sure, there were reoccurring problems by both of us, but not to the extent that I thought our marriage was in trouble. PLEASE GOD HELP ME.
Ovr, see bolded line.
In more plain English this is a sign of depression,
you did not break her and you can not fix her.
Getting divorced will not make her more happy,
she must do that herself.
All you can do is FIX yourself and make yourself into a person only a FOOL would leave.
You might be married to a FOOL but that is out of your control.
Concentrate on the things you can control. YOU!
I had an absolute terrible marriage counseling session today. I have tried to make so many 180s, but I have not made any progress in winning back my wife's love. I know this shouldn't be my expectation from the advice on this site, but it is so counterintuitive.
I love my wife and kids so much. I just don't want my family destroyed.
During the counseling session she said that she has been unhappy and lonely for so many years and is just done.I never in a million years would have thought that she has been this unhappy. I have always thought we got along really well. Sure, there were reoccurring problems by both of us, but not to the extent that I thought our marriage was in trouble. PLEASE GOD HELP ME.
Ovr, see bolded line.
In more plain English this is a sign of depression,
you did not break her and you can not fix her.
Getting divorced will not make her more happy,
she must do that herself.
All you can do is FIX yourself and make yourself into a person only a FOOL would leave.
You might be married to a FOOL but that is out of your control.
Concentrate on the things you can control. YOU!
Cadet,
I think you are so right. She is depressed. She always hated being a SAHM, but she was scared to actually get a job. Then she says that she is the only adult in the relationship. Meanwhile I am a highly functioning executive. Unbelievable.
I need a plan for fixing myself. I have lost 50 pounds so far, but I really need to get interests outside of the house. I love watching football, but I don't have many hobbies that don't involve just reading.
I think you are so right. She is depressed. She always hated being a SAHM, but she was scared to actually get a job. Then she says that she is the only adult in the relationship. Meanwhile I am a highly functioning executive. Unbelievable.
Let's get a show of hands. Who has heard this one before?
I really need to get interests outside of the house. I love watching football, but I don't have many hobbies that don't involve just reading.
I love football and all sports myself.
Here are some things I have done that just involve reading.
Read over 30 books about this stage of life.
Including all of MWD's books, DB/DR/SSM/SSW.
Took about 7 courses on coursera, including 3 genetics classes and some others on the History of Rock, Beatles, Rolling Stones.
Read years worth of posts, here on DB.
So my point is you can GAL lots of ways, you can volunteer, get a new hobby or do anything else you want to do.
Widen your horizons, try new things, what do you have to lose?
Thanks for the ideas Cadet! I guess I am still trying to GAL to impress my wife to win back her love. That is always my focus, and I know that is the wrong idea.
I have a question for you guys. How common is it for a WW to be both a walk away spouse and having a midlife crisis. I feel like her midlife crisis in some ways is causing her to create a new narrative of being unhappy for so long in our marriage. I know she has been depressed at being a SAHM, but I didn't think she was unhappy with me and our marriage. Now she makes it sound like I have never been a partner. This crushes me.
Journaling:
I pray everyday that God will open my wife's heart to my love and that I have the wisdom and discipline to do what I can to win her back. I am trying to convince myself that I can't control any of this. I try to turn everything over to God, but I struggle every day to do this. God please let me turn this over to you. Please let me feel your love and presence. I want so bad to feel your arms wrapped around me like a loving father.
I need to be honest with this forum that I am not sure that it is within my personality to successfully DB. I am trying, but it goes completely against my nature. I am not sure I can detach, GAL and live my life for me. But, I think that being here and knowing that I need to be focusing on this is a good first step. For now, I will try to muddle through this working with the knowledge I am gaining here and knowing who I am and what I can do.
It is so hard for me not to pursue. My pastor is a strong believer in the 5 Love Languages book, and I am trying to speak to my wife in her love language, acts of service. I feel like this is totally against what DBing is all about, but like I said I am muddling through trying to figure all of this out.
I have learned that I need to stop pursuing. I need to stop saying I love you. I need to stop putting pressure on my wife. Every time I do this, I can sense that it pulls her further away from me. It is just so tough because we are living together, and except for marriage counseling, acting as if we have a normal family. We are sleeping in the same bed, but she rarely touches me. I feel like she is both a walk away spouse and having a midlife crisis.
I have a question for you guys. How common is it for a WW to be both a walk away spouse and having a midlife crisis. I feel like her midlife crisis in some ways is causing her to create a new narrative of being unhappy for so long in our marriage. I know she has been depressed at being a SAHM, but I didn't think she was unhappy with me and our marriage. Now she makes it sound like I have never been a partner. This crushes me.
First of all it matters little what the definition of her is.
You do the same things.
What you have written above is the definition of a MLC
She is unhappy with herself, so there is no room for you.
Until she is healed and whole she is in no shape to be in a marriage/relationship.
So you take this GIFT of TIME that she is giving you and improve yourself so that you can be the best
YOU that you could possible be.
Stop pressuring her and let go - if she is truly yours then she will be back, if she does not then she
was really never yours to begin with.
5LL is for two committed partners. When one jumps off the cliff it goes out the window.
You know pressure doesn't work, but your emotions want instant gratification. Think with your head.
And one more thing, you'll feel better when you stop worrying about want you can't control (her) and go have some fun.
5LL is for two committed partners. When one jumps off the cliff it goes out the window.
You know pressure doesn't work, but your emotions want instant gratification. Think with your head.
And one more thing, you'll feel better when you stop worrying about want you can't control (her) and go have some fun.
You are so right that I want instant gratification. I always have with her. I feel like I NEED her love. I am dependent on it. I have not been that way with anyone else in my life, but I just feel that way with her. I don't know why, and I am working on that with my IC.
I pray everyday that I can stop worrying about what I can't control. I ask God to take over this for me. For Him to do His work, but I just can't let go. But I will keep asking and keep trying. I know that I have to do that for my own sanity.
There is a part of me that knows that the 5LL won't work. It just fits my personality so much. In fact, the funny thing is that I think for the most part I have followed the 5LLs pretty well throughout my marriage. When I look back on my marriage I think I have actually been a pretty good husband. I have been a good provider, put her on a pedestal, been a good dad, and was never mean to my wife. That is what is so confusing.
But I know that I need to stop blaming myself and convince myself that this is her not me. She needs to fix her. And now I need to find the strength to fix me now that I feel so destroyed. I have been a pretty strong man throughout my life. It is just this event that is bringing me to my knees. 6 plus months of crying everyday is terrible suffering to go through. My depression feels like it is stopping me from having fun.
I feel like I have forgotten how to have fun.
I have learned that I need to stop pursuing. I need to stop saying I love you. I need to stop putting pressure on my wife. Every time I do this, I can sense that it pulls her further away from me. It is just so tough because we are living together, and except for marriage counseling, acting as if we have a normal family. We are sleeping in the same bed, but she rarely touches me. I feel like she is both a walk away spouse and having a midlife crisis.
Destroyd, your sitch is very similar to mine. MLC. WAW. WW. Living together. Normal other than knowing she wanted out and wanted a D. Slept in the same bed, though she was so far to the other edge I have no idea how she didn't fall out of it.
Have you read DR? Because many of your questions come across as naive. Everyone of us whether we had a WAW and/or a WW and/or a W in a MLC heard history writing. My W told me point blank,on BD, that she hadn't been happy a single day in the nearly 19 years we had been married. Something that simply was not true!
But here is the thing Detroyd, perception IS reality. IE, someone's perception is their reality. If she truly believes the rewriting of history there is nothing you can do to snap her out of that. It is out of your control. And until you accept that you have no control over her I feel you will continue to struggle.
Control is at the root of a lot of posters' that claim they can't DB issue. You still think you can woe her. That you can nice her and love her back. That you can court her and do the things you did when you were dating her to get her to fall back in love with you. That worked back when you were dating, there is too much water under the bridge for that to ever be successful again.
So your choice is simple:continue to try to control and push her further away. Or let go of control, focus on you, and let her deal with her own stuff. We all come here because our W's asked for time and space, and we are struggling giving them that time and space. WAWs are like a cat. If you approach the cat....pick up the cat.....try to hang on to the cat and make it let you hold it....it will fight, struggle, and claw to get away. If you let the cat approach you, jump up in your lap, then it will lay there for a long time. WAWs need to be the one to come back of their own volition, or else they will secretly be plotting their getaway the entire time.
5LL is for two committed partners. When one jumps off the cliff it goes out the window.
You know pressure doesn't work, but your emotions want instant gratification. Think with your head.
And one more thing, you'll feel better when you stop worrying about want you can't control (her) and go have some fun.
You are so right that I want instant gratification. I always have with her. I feel like I NEED her love. I am dependent on it. I have not been that way with anyone else in my life, but I just feel that way with her. I don't know why, and I am working on that with my IC.
I pray everyday that I can stop worrying about what I can't control. I ask God to take over this for me. For Him to do His work, but I just can't let go. But I will keep asking and keep trying. I know that I have to do that for my own sanity.
There is a part of me that knows that the 5LL won't work. It just fits my personality so much. In fact, the funny thing is that I think for the most part I have followed the 5LLs pretty well throughout my marriage. When I look back on my marriage I think I have actually been a pretty good husband. I have been a good provider, put her on a pedestal, been a good dad, and was never mean to my wife. That is what is so confusing.
But I know that I need to stop blaming myself and convince myself that this is her not me. She needs to fix her. And now I need to find the strength to fix me now that I feel so destroyed. I have been a pretty strong man throughout my life. It is just this event that is bringing me to my knees. 6 plus months of crying everyday is terrible suffering to go through. My depression feels like it is stopping me from having fun.
I feel like I have forgotten how to have fun.
This is the best post you've made since you've been here. Insightful, introspective, starting to understand the truth of your situation. Keep this up because this is how you eventually get to DBing well.
Like many newbies you are struggling in limbo. But limbo is the gift of time! So many get BD'd as the WAS is actually physically walking out the door. If you think your sitch is rough imagine being in that situation. Where they don't tell you who they are with, where they are going, many times they don't even provide contact information! So your sitch could be a lot worse. Maybe that is God working in your sitch. You seem to have faith, so put your faith in him. That no matter what happens he has a plan for you and you will be ok. Maybe he is showing you that your codependency on your W was not healthy. Life is full of things that make that unhealthy. Serious illness and death could come at anytime to anyone, and keeping things in perspective and having the right attitude is so important. Life is 10% what happens to us and 90% how we react to it. And as a Bible student myself from essentially birth, I truly believe the Bible teaches us that principle as well. (Read Job sometime for example!)
You will survive Destroyd. And that should become your new perspective, that no matter what she decides, you will thrive and live!
Thanks Steve. I really am trying to accept the advice here, but I will admit that it is very difficult for me. I am not trying to just be stubborn. I just need to develop a plan that I will actually be able to carry through with.
I think I need to plan out what my life will be like if this sitch doesn't go the way I want it to. That way I know that I will survive.
Journaling:
The guilt and regret of all the things I should have done differently really depress me. I will just never know if I could have prevented this. I still think this is all about her, and I didn't know about her unhappiness until too late. But the regrets do really get you down. I talked to a coworker today, and she was really taking the woman's side. This got me down when I was just looking for a friend.
Destroyed if you are looking for validation. Look for it in the same sex first. Then try the woman's side they feel and think, process, and perceive things way differently then we do. If I can recommend a good book to many others here. Should I Stay or Should I Go, or I think its called Too Bad To Stay Too Good To Leave. A lot of insight from a woman's perspective, but I warn you, it may bring up a lot of guilt and shame when it points our some of the things we were, or were not doing,
Journaling:
The guilt and regret of all the things I should have done differently really depress me. I will just never know if I could have prevented this. I still think this is all about her, and I didn't know about her unhappiness until too late. But the regrets do really get you down. I talked to a coworker today, and she was really taking the woman's side. This got me down when I was just looking for a friend.
The past is past. You can't change it. You can only resolve to do better from this point forward. So don't dwell on the past. Look to the future and how you want the future Destroyd to behave! This is why our sitches are such a huge opportunity. To improve and be the best we can be from this point forward. The guy I am today is so much better than the guy I was 2 years ago.
Journaling:
It was a tough weekend with my wife away for the weekend. I surrounded myself and kids with family, so that was nice. I did not text wife all weekend, except to respond to her texts. I wanted her to get a weekend away. Now it is the struggle of a new week. I pray for focus and productivity.
Remember, the texting rule is:
Texts that are not questions do not need to be responded to. Texted questions should be answered in as few words as possible. Yes or no questions get yes or no answers.
This helps from saying too much.
How did you guys deal with the loneliness and depression? It is so difficult to cope with.
Yoga (there are lots of Youtube videos but a real life class is better)
exercise, I run a lot but also went back to swimming, I found that quite soothing
Reading (be careful what you read)
Go out with friends and do stuff even if it feels pointless
Go new places and do new things
Listen to podcasts
Get out in nature
I think I'm a few months ahead of you (BD last September) and it's probably only quite recently that I've actually started feeling like life is sometimes worth living. That dark place doesn't last forever thank goodness, though there are still some bad moments. Look back sometimes and see how far you've come and how much stronger you are now than when you started.
How did you guys deal with the loneliness and depression? It is so difficult to cope with.
This exactly what get a like addresses. For me it was the gun range. I forgot everything else while I was in that shooting lane.
How did you guys deal with the loneliness and depression? It is so difficult to cope with.
Drugs, alcohol and questionable women. KIDDING! I reached out to old friends I hadn't talked to in a while. Talked to them, texted, made lunch and dinner dates. Found out many of them had been through the same thing, it was cathartic talking to people face-to-face that really understood. Tried making some new friends too. Worked out religiously, it was great for taking my mind off of things and making me tired enough to sleep. Threw myself into hobbies that had been dormant for a while. Took the kids to the park or movies or out to eat or whatever. Just tried getting out of the house as much as I could. Even with all of that it still takes time to adjust, so you have to be patient with yourself.
I have to figure out some new hobbies that I can do while still living with my spouse. I am still living my life being Mr. husband and dad. The truth is I love that life. Unfortunately, it is out of my control as to whether I can still have that life.
I have to figure out some new hobbies that I can do while still living with my spouse.
Have you ever tried remote controlled planes? It's a lot of fun and would give you a good excuse to leave and go to the park. These days you can buy ready-to-fly setups for pretty cheap, and they fly quite nicely. I'm a very advanced R/C pilot, have been doing it 30 years and fly anything you can imagine from hexicoptors to planes to powered kites to ornithopters. It's really therapeutic.
That sounds like a lot of fun. Ever since I was a kid I wanted a remote control airplane. Maybe I will try that. I used to have a string plane when I was a kid.
Destroyd,
I'm sorry you are dealing with loneliness. It can be challenging finding GAL activities but I've been trying everything suggested to me until something sticks. That in itself has been a GAL activity....finding a GAL activity.
Podcasts work for me in the car so I don't get hit with a song bomb! I listen to sermons every morning and that has been a lifeline for me.
It's ok if nothing sounds like fun. Start small if you have to, just find something that doesn't make you want to barf and try it. I was putting so much pressure on myself that I was waiting until something sounded awesome, when I really needed to just try anything.
In the meantime, I've found that focusing on my S17 has been the best for me. They grow up fast and time spent with them is never wasted.
Keep your head up.
Thank you for all of the GAL suggestions. I think part of my problem is that I am trying to find activities that will impress my wife. That is probably stupid, but it seemed to me that these key 180s. But I need to just make myself happy first.
If there is one good thing that has come from this, it is I have become much more empathetic. I see that so many people are suffering, so many good people are suffering. Divorce really is the worst thing that individuals can go through. The abandonment by a loved one is just torture to a human soul. I hope that this experience will make me a better human and Christian.
Journaling:
For the first four months after the BD, I did a great job in losing weight and exercising. Then, I started to gain my appetite back. I have lost 50 pounds so far, but I need to lose 40 more. I need to get serious about getting back on track. I know that this goes against the DB philosophy, but I need to do this to re-attract my wife. On the other hand, it is a pretty good GAL activity. I know I shouldn't be doing this for her, and in part I am just doing it for myself. But I know in my heart that she is my motivation. But I am focused on making myself the motivation. I need to love me. I need to find me again. I need to care about me.
I have been listening to and reading a lot of marriage help books. Boy, do I regret not reading these before the BD. Now, I just cry over what I should have done. I do not believe that I am the main cause of this breakdown in the MR. I strongly believe that it is her, but that doesn't stop the regret. I couldn't make the most important person in my life happy. I pray that won't haunt me the rest of my life. I know I am unhealthily dependent on her love. I don't know why. I will keep working with my therapist to end this dependency. I will love myself again.
I hate sharing with this forum how bad I am at the DBing. But I will be honest with everyone. I will not lie. I know that my terrible DBing frustrates many of you, and I feel like I am letting myself down and you down. But I will be honest. AND I WILL KEEP WORKING TO IMPROVE MYSELF. And for that, I am thankful to everyone on this forum.
It is only frustrating because we know you could be so much more at peace if you let go of the rope, concentrated on GAL and detachment, and really just become the best person and man you can be. She'll either take notice.... Or she won't. That isn't in your control. But by realizing that and letting go of control you realize that you can and will thrive. No matter what.
Think about how you'd move on if your wife were to die. You realize that you'd have work to do and things to take care of for yourself and your kids to move forward. We can't control what happens but we can control how we handle ourselves in the aftermath.
Losing weight and getting in shape to become more attractive is not against DB philosophy at all. No worries there. You are doing it to be attractive, not just attractive to her though (whether or not you realize it). I would not worry about being "bad at DB". You just got started, so it's actually called a "starting point". Keep working, no one is perfect.
Now get yourself back out in the world and get busy living.
I know that this goes against the DB philosophy, but I need to do this to re-attract my wife. On the other hand, it is a pretty good GAL activity.
That's OK, you don't just flip a switch and are suddenly doing everything for you rather than your W. It's more like a rheostat that you slowly turn up over time. We mention a lot to be patient with your W, but it's just as important to be patient with yourself.
I know I shouldn't be doing this for her, and in part I am just doing it for myself. But I know in my heart that she is my motivation. But I am focused on making myself the motivation. I need to love me. I need to find me again. I need to care about me.
Yes exactly. BD is one heck of a blow to one's self-esteem. It takes a while to build that back up again.
I have been listening to and reading a lot of marriage help books. Boy, do I regret not reading these before the BD. Now, I just cry over what I should have done.
It's normal to go through a "regret" phase. At the end of the day you will be better prepared for your next R though, whether it's with your W or someone else. The LBS's here usually emerge a much stronger, more independent person with clearer values and more sensitivity to their partner's needs. The WAS? Yeah not so much.
I will comment later. On lunch, I can relate to all of you. Simply put guys, its like this, maybe not immediately, but eventually you will get so fed up of the compulsive thinking, the worrying, the emotional instability, the limbo, the moving, the petty arguments and perception differences, the petty division of lifestyles, difference differences in thinking, justifying, etc, that you eventually will have no more Fu@k$ left to give. You will slowly start to regain your sense of self doing things independently by yourself and for yourself, you will change for yourself and your thinking will change too and you will be happier for it because you're not constantly feeling all these emotional inconsistencies. This in its essence is dropping the rope. You won't care what she does what she thinks or how she perceives you.
You will eventually stop dwelling on the past, letting go of guilt and regrets, pick your @$$ up by the boot straps, and keep moving forward with logic on what is right for you. Emotions and feelings will occasionally resurface and you will have to deal with them process them and then turn off. Not push it down but turn it off and get back to current reality.
It is almost as if the only way to reattract them is by accident. You no longer matter to them, so they no longer matter to you. There is absolutely nothing you can do to convince, talk them through it, or change their minds they have to do it for them for what they see and what they value or what they don't value. Let them go and start planning your life and your future. All the manipulatuve BS that they impose in us, and don't even realize they're doing it, using children as leverage, cake eating, Tit for Tat tectonic thinking, trying to play family when separated. Its not worth the stress or the emotional discontention. Cut them lose. Trust me you will feel much better when you start negotiating I'm taking actions on things on your own terms.
According to everyone here they most likely will not see their regrets until years later, and by then the LBS has already walked away. Give them their space in their freedom and open the cage door and let them go. We all deserve a life where someone wants us whether it is W or some one else.
Steve, Ovr and Another, thank you all so much for your support. It is amazing that there is the group of people who are supporting each other and total strangers. Thank you.
Destroyd, i know one of the tendencies we as LBSs have is to ask: "WHy is she doing this?"
I know that question popped into my mind in the hours and days following BD. Especially us LBHs we think if can get a why....then we can fix it. Like a car? Why is it making that noise? If we can figure out the why, then we can fix it.
But here is deal. Likely she doesn't even know why she is doing it. WAS are emotionally driven creatures. "I feel right this minute I should do X." Five minutes later: "I feel right this minute I should do Y."
I found another anti-divorce author (not MWD) that said that if you look at it from the WAS's standpoint it is very simple. They are unhappy, either about something we were doing or not doing, or for some other reason. (We had one poster here from Great Britain for a while whose WAW had flaked out over the Brexit eletion!) But the key was understanding that they were trying to find happiness.
A lot of posters come here convinced their WAS is having a "Midlife Crisis". However, the worst thing you can do is say that to them. Because they wouldn't categorize it like that at all. It isn't a crisis to them. From their perspective they've never been thinking more clearly! To them it is an awakening! An epiphany. Whether it is based in fact or fiction, they feel like they've been unhappy for years, and suddenly the answers to their unhappiness is clear to them.
In my sitch, as conflicted as my W was about should she stay or should she go, one thing was clear to here almost all of the time until near the end right before she decided to R: staying would mean she remained miserable, and leaving would mean that should would leave healthily and happily. I do not think any of that was true, but that her perception. And a person' perception is their reality.
I am a very devout Christian. I pray a lot and did so through my sitch too. One thing I never prayed for was for God to change her mind. God doesn't mess with free will. What I did prayed for was for, if it was possible, for something to help her see things differently. And for wisdom and understanding for me no matter what she ultimately decided. The temptation is to pray for God to "make her do this" or "make her do that". It is never going to happen that way.
As much as you hate what your W is doing, try to understand that it is her trying to be happy. Obviously you wish she tried a different way, but ultimately it is for her to decide. After all, our happiness here is our own responsibility, not anyone else's. Including God's. God never promised us happiness in this life. In fact, he sent his Son for 1 reason. To die on the cross for the remission of all our sins! So God leaves it up to us to find our own happiness. And we can do that when we focus on the right things no matter what happens around us. As a Christian you know the story of Peter walking on the water. As long as Peter was focused on Christ, he walked on the water. Only the second person after Jesus to do that. When he let the raging wind and sea and howling storm divert his attention, that is when he began to sink.
Keep your focus on Christ. And you will overcome!
God bless you Steve. I needed to hear all of that.
Amen to that Steve85. Best post I've seen yet.
I had a pretty good day yesterday. I still had trouble focusing on work, but I played tennis for an hour and a half yesterday. I burned a ton of calories, and I feel that I am in the best shape I have been in a long time. I still have a lot more weight to lose, but I am seeing results.
I still question whether my situation is different than a lot of people here. My wife and I get along very well together. We cook dinner with each other every night, and we talk a lot. But the BD did drop, and I don't see the R improving. So, I know that things aren't right. I bet all of us here drive ourselves crazy trying to convince ourselves that our situation is different. No matter what, I need to find happiness for myself. I will keep taking steps every day to do this. What a slog!
I still question whether my situation is different than a lot of people here. My wife and I get along very well together. We cook dinner with each other every night, and we talk a lot. But the BD did drop, and I don't see the R improving. So, I know that things aren't right. I bet all of us here drive ourselves crazy trying to convince ourselves that our situation is different. No matter what, I need to find happiness for myself. I will keep taking steps every day to do this. What a slog!
My sitch was just like that. Except for the cooking every night. Regardless, it doesn't matter what your sitch is like. GAL, detaching (please Google self-differentiation in marriage as this is the healthy way to be in an R even if it is a good R, as codependency is always a bad thing), and 180ing on bad behavior.
My sitch didn't improve until I started doing that well and consistent.
I still question whether my situation is different than a lot of people here. My wife and I get along very well together. We cook dinner with each other every night, and we talk a lot. But the BD did drop, and I don't see the R improving. So, I know that things aren't right. I bet all of us here drive ourselves crazy trying to convince ourselves that our situation is different. No matter what, I need to find happiness for myself. I will keep taking steps every day to do this. What a slog!
You are right, a lot of LBS's do think their sitch is unique and they use that as an excuse to do things they shouldn't (especially pursuit behavior). It is true that every sitch is unique in some ways, but by and large there are a lot of similarities and there's hardly ever a sitch where DB'ing doesn't apply or doesn't improve things with time.
My XW and I got along great after BD, to the point that I often wondered if BD was a fluke and she had changed her mind. We continued having sex, doing kid events together (sporting events and such), having meals together, etc. But every time I temp checked it was just a big slap in the face that nothing had changed for her and she was still full steam ahead on S and D. The only thing that helped delay it was when I STOPPED the temp checks!
Good morning all. Boy I hate counselors. I went to my IC yesterday # and she almost tried to convince me just to give up on my marriage. If I am getting that, after all she knows about how much I love my wife and want to save my marriage, I can only imagine the advice my wife is getting from her therapist. I have my MC session coming up, and I hate these. I feel like I just sit there and here over and over again a distorted version of our marriage and how she fell out of love with me. I know you guys recommend stopping MC, but do you have any advice for getting the most out of MC?
Dear Lord, I pray that you open my wife's heart to my love. I know that she is struggling and knows that this is not the best thing for our kids. Please talk to her Lord and guide her to keep our beautiful family in tact.
Lord, please give me the strength, discipline and wisdom to do the right things to save my marriage. You know how much I love her and my kids Lord. Please work a miracle for me.
Lord, every day I try to turn this situation over to you to handle, but I struggle to do so. On one hand, I know that this is her issue that she needs to work through. On the other hand, I keep trying to win back her love, blame myself for everything that I could have done better as a husband. Lord, please take this situation over from me. Allow me to give it to you for you to do your work. Allow me to have peace.
Lord, please allow me to feel your love. I know that you are walking beside me in this journey, but I so very much want to feel the arms of my loving Father wrapped around me. My suffering is so oppressive Lord, please dive me comfort. Please help me to end the sadness.
Lord, my wife might have a job opportunity, and I think it might be great for her to get out of the house into the working world again. Please Lord, if this is the best thing for her and our marriage, please help her to pursue this opportunity. She is struggling with it. I am trying to be supportive, because I think she needs to stop being a SAHM.
Lord, please look after my job. I don't want to have the additional stress of needing to find a new job in the middle of the turmoil I am already going through.
Lord, please be with our counselors during our counseling sessions. Please give them the wisdom necessary to help the two of us and save our marriage. I know that you hate divorce. Please use these counselors the best you can to help us reconcile.
Lord, please be with everyone on this forum who are struggling every day with the most heartbreaking of situations. If I have learned anything from this experience, it is the great amount of suffering that so many people are going through as relationships break down. I know you hate divorce Lord, and I see the scars here. Please put your arms around us all. Let us feel your presence and comfort. We and our spouses need your love Lord. We need your wisdom and guidance. Please be with us.
In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.
Boy I hate counselors. I went to my IC yesterday # and she almost tried to convince me just to give up on my marriage.
Most traditional IC's and MC's are just divorce facilitators. You should look for a new IC that is more compatible with your interests.
I feel like I just sit there and here over and over again a distorted version of our marriage and how she fell out of love with me. I know you guys recommend stopping MC, but do you have any advice for getting the most out of MC?
You're not going to get anything out of it. That stuff that you hate sitting there hearing is all you will ever hear as long as you keep going. This is your W's mindset now and it's not going to change for a long time, and definitely not until after you can remove all pressure from her, and MC is just another form of pressure. You've got to quit doing what YOU want (desperately trying to save the M) and start doing what SHE wants (give her time and space and quit pressuring her about the M). We always tell people not to drag a WAS into MC but they think they know better. They think it'll result in a miracle transformation, that their WAS will see the light and suddenly decide to work on the M. It just never happens. You need to save the MC for when she eventually has a change of heart, and you will know when she does.
Destroyd, in my case, MC became essentially IC for me with my wife there. She seemed very receptive to that. As I owned my issues, and worked through the whys, and talked about changes I was making to remedy it. I think I mentioned this before. If you can work with the MC to go that route it might be better. I would fire any IC that was not promarriage. That's just me. I tell people all the time to not settle for a C, find one that works. IE shop around.
Another, I am not dragging my W to MC. She is the one asking for it. That is what makes this difficult. She seems to like going. But, I do agree with you that I don't think it is helping, and I am doubtful that it is going to help. I completely agree with you, but at the same time, I am scared that if I tell her that we should stop, she will use that as a reason to fast forward a D decision. I DO NOT WANT THAT!!!! There has been no mention of divorce, just talking around the edges of the topic. She has never said, I want a divorce.
Destroyd, in my case, MC became essentially IC for me with my wife there. She seemed very receptive to that. As I owned my issues, and worked through the whys, and talked about changes I was making to remedy it. I think I mentioned this before. If you can work with the MC to go that route it might be better. I would fire any IC that was not promarriage. That's just me. I tell people all the time to not settle for a C, find one that works. IE shop around.
Steve, I wouldn't say that my IC is not promarriage. I just think she is asking me some tough questions, like, why do you want to continue to be married to a person that doesn't love you? Why do you want to be married to a person that seems to have changed from the person that you married? She knows my reasons. But, she is definitely not anti-divorce.
I am thinking about trying a different Christian counselor, but man, how many counselors can I go to lol! My wife and I are spending a fortune in MC, IC for each of us. Sad.
By the way Steve, every day I have been reading through your main post.
Another, I am not dragging my W to MC. She is the one asking for it. That is what makes this difficult. She seems to like going. But, I do agree with you that I don't think it is helping, and I am doubtful that it is going to help.
Yeah sometimes the WAS is the one that wants to go to MC but it's not to work on the M. It's to facilitate separation and divorce, and to check it off their list of "how I tried everything to save the M but it just proved it was already over".
I completely agree with you, but at the same time, I am scared that if I tell her that we should stop, she will use that as a reason to fast forward a D decision. I DO NOT WANT THAT!!!!
I hear you. You're painted into a corner though because she is just as likely to use the MC as a reason to push for D. This is the way it usually goes-
MC- I'll give you some exercises to work on the M blah blah etc.
WAS- I've tried everything though. The love is gone, I just don't love him anymore because A, B C and D as well as a thousand other things but you get the point, he's a lost cause.
MC- I see, well perhaps the two of you should consider separation.
WAS- OMG!!!!! That's a fantastic idea!!! WOW I knew I liked you! How can we make this happen as soon as possible?
This is what happened to me and many others here. The WAS uses the counselor as the "bad guy" to initiate S and/ or D. It becomes "well the MC said we should" as if it's ALL the counselor's idea and not what the WAS wanted.
There has been no mention of divorce, just talking around the edges of the topic. She has never said, I want a divorce.
Right, because she's waiting for you or the MC to float the idea. Whenever someone does she will latch onto it like it's the greatest idea ever. And the real beauty for her is it's not her fault because she didn't suggest it, she's just going along with someone else's suggestion.
I pray you are wrong, AnotherStander, but I am afraid that you are right. This has always been my worst fear that my W is just using MC as a means to not feel guilty about not "trying" everything.
D,
Always look at her actions not her words.
By the way Steve, every day I have been reading through your main post.
Which one is that? My threads?
Yes, your threads when you were starting to go through your BD.
Yes, your threads when you were starting to go through your BD.
Ah ok. I didn't find this until several weeks in, but I remembered DBing on day 2 after BD. Since I had gone through it in 2005 too. But then I made the same mistakes.
Another, I am not dragging my W to MC. She is the one asking for it. That is what makes this difficult. She seems to like going. But, I do agree with you that I don't think it is helping, and I am doubtful that it is going to help.
Yeah sometimes the WAS is the one that wants to go to MC but it's not to work on the M. It's to facilitate separation and divorce, and to check it off their list of "how I tried everything to save the M but it just proved it was already over".
I completely agree with you, but at the same time, I am scared that if I tell her that we should stop, she will use that as a reason to fast forward a D decision. I DO NOT WANT THAT!!!!
I hear you. You're painted into a corner though because she is just as likely to use the MC as a reason to push for D. This is the way it usually goes-
MC- I'll give you some exercises to work on the M blah blah etc.
WAS- I've tried everything though. The love is gone, I just don't love him anymore because A, B C and D as well as a thousand other things but you get the point, he's a lost cause.
MC- I see, well perhaps the two of you should consider separation.
WAS- OMG!!!!! That's a fantastic idea!!! WOW I knew I liked you! How can we make this happen as soon as possible?
This is what happened to me and many others here. The WAS uses the counselor as the "bad guy" to initiate S and/ or D. It becomes "well the MC said we should" as if it's ALL the counselor's idea and not what the WAS wanted.
There has been no mention of divorce, just talking around the edges of the topic. She has never said, I want a divorce.
Right, because she's waiting for you or the MC to float the idea. Whenever someone does she will latch onto it like it's the greatest idea ever. And the real beauty for her is it's not her fault because she didn't suggest it, she's just going along with someone else's suggestion.
Sorry I'm sounding like a misogynist here. Not all, but some...It's funny how most women won't take responsibility or accountability to be assertive, direct, or decisive on their own accord, account or merit, but gratuitously seek validation from others and other like-minded to facilitate something they cannot be decisive on, but actually want, but don't want ownership of. Talk about hive mind mentality.
So I had my MC today, and my W made it completely obvious that she wants SPACE and I need to give it to her. She said that I am putting too much pressure on her to fix the marriage and she is not there yet. To date, I have been one foot in the DBing bucket and one foot in the show my love bucket. It is clear to me that DBing is the way I need to go, however, she has asked me to continue to show her that I am her partner. I am having trouble reconciling this with DBing, so be gentle with me as I work through this.
We had our MC session, and then a LONG R talk where I cried many times throughout the conversation. Here is what I learned.
1. She needs space to make up her mind on her own. She wants me to quit making family plans. Life is too busy, and she needs time to think. I will need to make family plans without her, so that I can still have fun.
2. She has complained that some of the things that got her to be unhappy with our M is that she has felt alone in performing household tasks and taking care of the kids. So, she wants me to continue to do these things with her. She wants me to continue to cook dinner and talk with her during this time. She wants me to continue to do house chores with her as a team.
3. She wants me to stop pursuing her in any romantic way. I have done almost none of this, but I will stop any type of physical contact.
4. I learned that she has told her parents about our situation, and I told her that I told my mother and brother. I really wish that this didn't come out today. I thought she wasn't telling her parents because of the guilt, and I didn't want her to know that I told my mom and brother, because I wanted that guilt to keep her from asking for a divorce.
5. I promised her that I would give her space, but to continue to show that I am a new man (the partner that she has wanted). I would continue to be the partner she has wanted me to be. I know this is against the DBing, but how do I make this work with the DBing methodology?
By the way, I feel that I have been a pretty good partner throughout our marriage, and she is rewriting history here.
6. If I am going to give her space, I need to get more of a life. I hate this!! I feel like I am not able to live the family life that I want to live this way. I like being at home after working all day. But, I am going to try to do more things with my kids. I am going to have to do more things with friends, all the while showing that I am the good, reliable partner.
7. As I was telling her that I was committed to being a new man, she asked why I kept saying this and it sounded like I wanted something from her. I said that I wanted her to be 100% committed to fixing the relationship, even though she didn't know whether it could be fixed. She promised me that she was trying to be 100% committed to fixing the relationship, but she reiterated that she didn't know whether it could be fixed. She loves me, but doesn't have romantic feelings for me. I thought the commitment to try to fix the R was a good sign.
8. I made a terrible mistake in our conversation where I said that this was very unfair to the kids. This was the worst mistake I made. I told her that it was unfair to them and that we would be hurting them financially. This made her angry, but I thought it had to be said. She said that she also had to be happy. I am sure that this really pushed her away from me, so I bet you guys are really going to hit me with 2x4s for this one.
9. So now I have to commit to giving as much space as possible, while still showing that I am a good partner. Do you have any advice on how to walk this fine line? I really do think this is a line that I need to walk. I know that it doesn't jive 100% with DBing, but in my situation, I think I have to modify some things here.
I still don't think she is having an affair. But at this point who knows.
So now I have to commit to giving as much space as possible, while still showing that I am a good partner. Do you have any advice on how to walk this fine line?
I would not walk the line. It looks like she wants to cake eat. If you do this she will only lose more respect for you IMO. Give her space but start detaching.
We had our MC session, and then a LONG R talk where I cried many times throughout the conversation. Here is what I learned.
D you have to learn to control your emotions. Crying in front of your W is very unattractive. You have to be the rock where nothing sways you. Just listen and validate.
1. She needs space to make up her mind on her own. She wants me to quit making family plans. Life is too busy, and she needs time to think. I will need to make family plans without her, so that I can still have fun.
Listen to what she is saying.
2. She has complained that some of the things that got her to be unhappy with our M is that she has felt alone in performing household tasks and taking care of the kids. So, she wants me to continue to do these things with her. She wants me to continue to cook dinner and talk with her during this time. She wants me to continue to do house chores with her as a team.
Do your fair share of the cooking and cleaning. No more. No less.
3. She wants me to stop pursuing her in any romantic way. I have done almost none of this, but I will stop any type of physical contact.
Absolutely no pursuit.
4. I learned that she has told her parents about our situation, and I told her that I told my mother and brother. I really wish that this didn't come out today. I thought she wasn't telling her parents because of the guilt, and I didn't want her to know that I told my mom and brother, because I wanted that guilt to keep her from asking for a divorce.
You don't want her to stay because she feels guilty.
5. I promised her that I would give her space, but to continue to show that I am a new man (the partner that she has wanted). I would continue to be the partner she has wanted me to be. I know this is against the DBing, but how do I make this work with the DBing methodology?
You know what a good partner does? Listens! Give her space and then give her even more space then that.
6. If I am going to give her space, I need to get more of a life. I hate this!! I feel like I am not able to live the family life that I want to live this way. I like being at home after working all day. But, I am going to try to do more things with my kids. I am going to have to do more things with friends, all the while showing that I am the good, reliable partner.
A good reliable partner gives her the space she asks for. Get out and reconnect with old friends.
7. As I was telling her that I was committed to being a new man, she asked why I kept saying this and it sounded like I wanted something from her. I said that I wanted her to be 100% committed to fixing the relationship, even though she didn't know whether it could be fixed. She promised me that she was trying to be 100% committed to fixing the relationship, but she reiterated that she didn't know whether it could be fixed. She loves me, but doesn't have romantic feelings for me. I thought the commitment to try to fix the R was a good sign.
Stop pressuring her looking for reassurance. She can't give it to you right now.
8. I made a terrible mistake in our conversation where I said that this was very unfair to the kids. This was the worst mistake I made. I told her that it was unfair to them and that we would be hurting them financially. This made her angry, but I thought it had to be said. She said that she also had to be happy. I am sure that this really pushed her away from me, so I bet you guys are really going to hit me with 2x4s for this one.
More pressure. You are digging yourself a hole you may not be able to get out of if you keep this up.
9. So now I have to commit to giving as much space as possible, while still showing that I am a good partner. Do you have any advice on how to walk this fine line? I really do think this is a line that I need to walk. I know that it doesn't jive 100% with DBing, but in my situation, I think I have to modify some things here.
I will say it one more time. A good partner listens. Give her space. Do your share of the chores and the child care.
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Thanks LH19. You are right. Now tonight, she asked if I want to go for a walk with her later. Man this is confusing. I will go for that walk since she initiated it. We are going on a date tomorrow night, dinner and a movie. I will stop initiating these things. She is so damn nice, except for the pain she is causing me, that she continues to treat me like her partner even though she tells me she isn't in love with me anymore.
My WAS has herself convinced that our family is not going to by financially strapped after a divorce. It is crazy. I pray that I can keep our marital home. I want it because the kids will always view it as their home. I don't want to be the dad in the terrible apartment. But, I am not sure that after alimony and child support I could afford it. My wife is a SAHM. Divorce is so evil. I am convinced that it is the Devil's work.
I am not a chick, but I yesterday I read The Christian Chick's Guide to Surviving Divorce. It is a really good book. In order for me to get through my day-to-day life during this limbo period, I think I need to get comfortable with the idea of life after divorce. I have terrible feelings of embarrassment, failure, guilt, and shame. I never in a million years would have thought that I would lose my wife's love.
One really important section of the book that hit home was putting my wife above God and making her an idol. I think that I have done this throughout my marriage. And at times, I have lost my connection with God by being too focused on my wife. I need to reconnect with God during this time. If my faith grows during this time of turmoil that will be a great positive to come out of this. I also hope to use this experience to help others how are suffering from divorce and to help people build stronger marriages.
Throughout most of my life I consistently said that divorce is one of the only crosses that I can't bear. It is eery how divorce has consistently been one of my biggest fears in life, and now it might actually happen to me. The feeling of abandonment is such a dreadful feeling. I would not wish this on my worst enemy. God please give comfort to all of us suffering here on this forum and those suffering through relationship issues around the world.
May God bless you and keep you!
Goals for the day:
1. Keep giving space and more space.
2. Do chores alongside my wife to show that I am a good partner, but as soon as done give space.
3. Work out
4. Talk to wife about reducing MC to once a month
Destroyed. From a religious and spiritual perspective, Divorce is evil. It is encouraged by our society through no fault divorces, lawyers, media, mediators, courts, celebrities, and selfishness as individuals, whether well intending or not. There is no sense of sacrifice or honor in it whatsoever. There is way too much encouragement and emphasis in western society IMO that you have to be self empowered, you have to find your purpose, and you have to be happy to have a fruitful life. If that life involves leaving your spouse then so be it. Not that there's anything wrong with pursuing these things in life, but at what cost? Typically the cost of the potentiality of our children.
I can't speak for everyone, but I am confidant that some of us would rather be miserable and keep the family intact to see if things can be worked out, and the fog cleared over time. If there's one thing I've learned from this forum and many other sources is that most people think happiness comes from achievement, experiences, inner work, confidence and purpose. This is true to an extent. But then what? What's next? What comes next? The relationship that we have with happiness needs to be a balance one. We need happiness to remain motivated with purpose. What most people don't realize what the cost is in a long-term when severing a marriage or family.
What I find absolutely fascinating is, women are great planners as far as social occasions, entertainment, achievement, self improvement, intuition, and planning on moving forward in getting away from us and on with their lives moving forward. They are not happy so they need to do something or change something with their lives. They no longer derive happiness in their perception from their marriage so it must be the marriage? Right? Even though happiness brings contention and satisfaction? What most of our WAW do not recognize is that happiness is fleeting like any other emotion. It is only temporary. Its supposed to come and go despite it motivating us to do bigger and better things. Like a child temporary fascinated with a new toy, and then within hours, throwing it into a corner out of boredom. Happiness has its place to an individual, but we must recognised its value and pitfalls, pros and cons, for what it is from a balanced perspective.
I've mistakenly at times tried bargain with God and I stopped that. I know that we all have free will and God cannot control my wife's decisions. I just hope that one day she sees things as they are one day with a dose of humility. Divorced, separated or not... I think we all just want to be validated and understood.
God wants us to be happy, but first and foremost God calls us to be obedient, commited, and disciplined first, My W is a Christian. She says she prays every night, and I believe her. But she takes a no interest in the bible, its stories, meaning, parables, its application, despite being given to her by her minister of a grandfather. She also has a book for women on daily devotionals for people of separation and divorce. She probably only read about 15 pages in the last 7 months. My take on things is the Heart Wants What It Wants. But the heart can be deceived and misled through emotions. I'm willing to bet that most of our spouses have only read about the direction that they think they should take, about thriving after divorce, about self-empowerment, self improvement, etc. They are continually looking for encouragement beyond the the marriage for themselves, but I'm willing to bet they never investigate the consequences.
I'm willing to bet that they haven't read or investigated the other side of divorce. How it mentally affects our children, their upbringing, and their behaviors as a result of divorce, effects some of their potential outcomes in life. How most likely that's someone that our WAS dates after us, there is an exponentially higher chance of foul play, molestation at worse, and family dynamic confusion at best with blended families. MWD even states these statistics in her book. (Think of a five-year-old yelling to to anex spouses new boyfriend yelling YOUR NOT MY DADDY!! Or to a GF YOUR NOT MY MOMMY.) LOL. Nothing but tension and competition between personal relationships and children. It's a freaking mess.
Im going to make a battle of the sexes, political and media argument here and am probably going to get roasted for it, but whatever.
I think men in general in today's western society need to grow up (including myself) and study the ways of old dynamics from the past 70 years of values, what it means to be a man, a father, and a husband, despite it not fitting very well into today's model of reality. The nuclear family is a thing of the past unfortunately, along with Its stability, because of economics, current culture, and propaganda. Its practically impossible to carry on traditional gender roles in today's relationships, marriages, and families without a backlash. I have noticed within my own M the double standards that my W has, and has tried to demasculate me and challenge me on certain things, which i have stood on. Some of these things have caused the dissolution of my marriage. But I won't compromise my traditional principles and values. I think that we cherry pick on both sides of ideals, what should be traditional and what should be current. I agree that marriage should be an equal partnership of value, commitment, understanding, and growth, but men and women will never be equals. Its very egalitarian. When you think about it I mean really think about it we are not even equal to ourselves, because we are always changing. We are never static. Not that either sex is superior to their opposite. Just different. They should compliment one another. But it is my HO that feminism has sold a bunch of lies to women falsely empowering them they can have it all. That they can be strong and independent, be single moms, that they should never need a man, but want one for their own benefit, that comes with such a high list of expectations that no human can fulfil thanks to Disney, movies, and media. They are easily influenced by fiction, novels, media, trends, social dynamics, etc.
While going out the door yesterday, I actually caught my W filling out a survey of what Disney Princess she equivilates to go post on FB. They want the fantasy. Rarely do they with objectivities explore the realities of seperating, and the pit falls of it. They just want to escape from being unhappy, they want to run, they want to explore, they want rebuild themselves and trust themselves. I get that.
Men of today need a kick in the behind too, with the pornography (guilty) the immaturity, the expectations, arrogance, etc. (By all means please point out to me how you think men can be better today, if I am not seeing it at this time.) A lot of them have NGS. Lack of purpose, fortitude, etc.
Where I'm going with this is these are all divisions created by Satan. Men are asked to act more like women and women are asked to act more like men today. Its unnatural. Add support of groups of either extremists, that support the role reversals, and you wonder why there is conflict and confusion, within the family, the marriage, and society from the societal values of old. If you ever noticed these days everything is about the self. Self-empowerment self-improvement self-help self independence, and the like. Satan has been very successful in sowing discord within our Western Society because of the freedoms that we have in it, are slowly losing, and has gone from a nation of great value to a nation of self entitlement and promiscuity. Community starts with the family, not the other way around IMO.
IH,
The only problem I have with this is that this is men vs. women. And whether one sex is more prone to this or not, both sexes are equally effected. Let me give you two recent examples:
My W and I are good friends with another couple. Recently, (last 5-6 months) we have noticed a definite pullback by the W of this friend couple. She engages less with my W, is less responsive, less willing to do thing with her. Etc. So obviously this woman is going through something in her own life that is causing this, but if my W was invested in that friendship more than she is for her happiness, I think you could see the effect that has.
Secondly, my daughter has been best friends with a girl in her class for about a year now. They were good friends before that, but have been best friends since then. This girl has called my W and I her second parents. Jokes about moving into one of our spare bedrooms, needing a key to her home, etc. But in the last week or so she has started to flake out on my daughter including posting something on social media about needing to find a new BF for the summer. My daughter has been distraught. And I've tried to have discussions with her about finding happiness from within, that friendships at her stage of life are fluid, and that no one I know in my peer group is still "best friends" with their best friend from high school.
I'll also add that males can have this phenomenon too. I've had many friends that I was close to suddenly start ghosting me (including one recently who I think is angry that I wouldn't skip mid-week Bible study to attend a concert with him).
Obviously, this forum is marriage focused and therefore has microscope on the male-female relationship dynamic. And rightfully so. And IH while you hit on some good topics here, especially Satan's role in turning upside down a hierarchy that God put into place, I think to primarily blame women is probably misguided. Our society makes it so it seems more of a issue with women, however, many other societies in the world do not have the same dynamic.
I think your words are very misogynistic IH. My H is in some ways acting very much like your W. It's about POWER, not about gender. There are elements of gender to it and people's assumptions about how people should behave, but fundamentally the WAS is the one with the power.
If I'm honest, I read some of the stuff you write about your W and about women on here IH and I think that I too would not want to be married to you, I know here is where you unload but if a fraction of that seeps into RL, then just ugh, no. Stop reading and spouting sexist guff on the internet and take a good look at yourself, quit the anger and blaming. It's never going to attract your W back or a new woman to you. And that statement is gender neutral, I promise you, anger and blaming is unattractive in anyone! I'm not saying there are no differences between the sexes, but from reading most sitches here both men and women behave very similarly and as the LBS we suffer the same pain.
ALSO, one thing I've noticed a lot on here is that men mostly comment on men's sitches and women on women's sitches. It's weird, we have a LOT to learn from the other sex. But honestly I don't feel that comfortable coming onto threads like this with misogynistic rants on them, and perhaps us women are unconsciously doing something more subtle but similar. I have 2 sons so I am very careful not to label men in negative ways, but these things are insidious.
dillydaf, I tend to post in men's threads only because I can relate much better to a LBH than I can a LBW. To help a LBW more I feel I would have needed to have been a WAH at some point, but I never have been. Obviously there are differences based on gender, whether we like to admit it or not.
Also, please go easy on IH. My guess is that he is jaded due to dealing with his WAW. My guess is that most of his ranting is due to the pain and hurt from that experience. Bitterness is clearly something we LBSs can deal with in a myriad of directions. Pain is pain, and IH ranting occasionally, I think, is his outlet for trying to reduce his pain.
Anyway, back to Destroyd sitch, Destroyd, I see you moving to a much healthier place in your recent posts and I think that is to be commended.
Steve: I agree that there are differences based on gender, which is why it's valuable to get different perspectives. Otherwise we end up with segregated threads and entrenched views, and entrenched views are partly how we got here! I think that part of the problem in my M is that my H is a ridiculously hard working breadwinner and I ended up as an unappreciated SAHM, and we lived such separate lives both of us felt resentful of each other and unvalued and lacking in understanding of the other person's perspective. In any M there are inequalities and misunderstandings and these creep in and multiply over time, sometimes these are gender-based and sometimes they're power-based, and the two interact.
Steve: I valued reading your thread because your description of your behaviour pre BD was very like my H's, and it gave me hope in him changing. Getting a male perspective is good even if it's a LBH instead of a WAH, because there are certain ways of looking at a situation that you might understand differently from a woman. For example, my H has said to me frequently that his ego is everything, and that embarrassment is the one thing he cannot tolerate. He works in a hugely competitive environment (of mostly men) and it is really hard for me to understand from a female perspective, because it is SO male-oriented.
And oh, the bitterness is so hard to avoid isn't it? But I want IH to be better, not bitter. I found it empowering to step out of blaming and bitterness (though I have to admit to a right old pity party on the phone to a friend this morning though, thank goodness I didn't ring my H then!) because bitterness gives all the power to your spouse. So I'm sorry if I was a bit blunt earlier IH, I like Steve's explanation of you ranting to decrease pain. Natural, but ultimately unproductive I think. And it's so much easier to see bitterness and victim behaviour in other people than in ourselves, I usually have to spot it in someone else to make me reflect how I'm doing it myself.
Sorry for the thread hijack Destroyd
Dilly, I wrote a similar post to yours to IH but ended up deleting it since this isn't his thread. Plus I don't want anyone here to feel I'm attacking them so instead I will share a personal story of where that chosen path leads. My friend's XW cheated on him and left him. This was before my sitch so I knew nothing of DBing and did not have the equipment to help him through it, which I regret. He handled it poorly, turned to drinking, gained a lot of weight, lost his zest for life. They've been divorced a good 10 years now and he has never dated again. He is still extremely anger and bitter about his divorce. He now lumps all women into one category, they are all liars, cheaters, they think XYZ while men think ABC, men and women aren't compatible, etc. etc. etc. It has affected his personal life, his work life, his relationship with his kids, everything. He doesn't take care of himself or his kids or his home or his cars because he just doesn't care about anything, his whole attitude is "what's the point". And of course even though it's 10 years later it's his ex's fault for every bad thing that continues to happen in his life.
I would just implore anyone going through this misery to work hard to be optimistic about your future. You may not be able to choose to stay with your spouse, but you CAN choose whether to be happy and positive (after getting through the grief after BD of course) or angry and pessimistic. Whichever path you choose, don't blame your spouse, YOU chose that path. I've said it before but the end of my M wasn't the end of my "book" even though I thought for a long time that it would be. It was the close of one chapter of that book and the opening of another. Most of us have many chapters in our life, how boring would your book be if it was just one chapter long? This may be happening against your will but you have 100% control of your future. You control your own destiny.
I responded to dilly in her thread. However, I have to shout a loud "AMEN" to what AS posted here. LBSs should get into IC, in my opinion, THE DAY AFTER BD. Moving forward healthy and happy is the most important thing.
We've had posters here that bucked that. "I don't have time." "I can't afford it." "I don't like counseling." Where there is a will there is a way. Further, you cannot afford NOT to deal with this in a proper way.
Also want to note - if you are lucky, some employers offer programs (sometimes called Employee Assistance Program) which offer free counseling sessions if affordability is a problem.
AS: I have a friend who got Ded 10 years ago and is similarly crushed and bitter and unable to enjoy her life. It is very sad to see and makes me determined not to end up there, she is such a victim and it's such a poor place to be. Yes, we all need to grieve our M and suffer through the pain of BD, but once that pain has lessened somewhat (that pain doesn't last forever thank goodness), then I agree that you have to make active efforts to choose life and to reject bitterness. It's difficult, because bitterness is such a natural response, it's so EASY to blame the person you trusted for betraying that trust. But the older you get the more you realise that with everything in life it's a case of picking yourself up after setbacks and continuing with a PMA. And some days you wallow and then you decide to move forwards and be a better person.
AS: I have a friend who got Ded 10 years ago and is similarly crushed and bitter and unable to enjoy her life. It is very sad to see and makes me determined not to end up there, she is such a victim and it's such a poor place to be. Yes, we all need to grieve our M and suffer through the pain of BD, but once that pain has lessened somewhat (that pain doesn't last forever thank goodness), then I agree that you have to make active efforts to choose life and to reject bitterness. It's difficult, because bitterness is such a natural response, it's so EASY to blame the person you trusted for betraying that trust. But the older you get the more you realise that with everything in life it's a case of picking yourself up after setbacks and continuing with a PMA. And some days you wallow and then you decide to move forwards and be a better person.
Man I pray that I am not still terribly bitter after 10 years. That is no way to live. God hates divorce. It is such a terrible experience. I read someone recently say it was like licking the floor of Hell. I think that is such a true statement.
Hi Destroyed, it's amazing you've hung in so long while feeling that heartbroken! Take care.
When and how did you guys tell your kids? Did you tell that that there were marriage problems before separation?
Hey Dillydaf. I just read your posts on here about being misogynistic.
Dillydaf: "We lived such separate lives both of us felt resentful of each other and unvalued and lacking in understanding of the other person's perspective. In any M there are inequalities and misunderstandings and these creep in and multiply over time, sometimes these are gender-based and sometimes they're power-based, and the two interact."
This statement about sums it up. Its not that I am hurt, resentful, totally bitter, or jaded completely torwards my W (Yes it is am emotion that comes and goes because of the division of the family.) But I try my hardest not to act that way torwards her, and realize that's some of the things that she is experiencing has absolutely nothing to do with me, and is her own personal issues that she has to work on and then there are some of the things I do have to do with me. Which I've done my best to acknowledge address and validate.
What I am having a problem with the ideologies of the feminist community the arm one hand promoting some good encouraging things for women and on the other hand are promoting false teachings, and toxic extremities, what do you want to research it and acknowledge it or not. Granted these are all theories to some men who are also considered extremist, and are bitter and jaded as well, but they have a lot of very valid points when it comes to bitter influential feminism, some false teachings, and what they are promoting to women. That is what is making me jaded and bitter. Because I see it as a general pattern in society in the relationships between men and women as well as all of my own relationships. Now you can argue with me on whether it's me or not, and whether I need to adjust my attitude and some of my own beliefs. Which is partially true. But I'm honestly trying to see reality for what it is and what's a societal standards and beliefs are encouraging. It's not that I'm putting down women. It is that I am calling not all of them, but a lot of them out on the double standards that they impose on us men within relationships because of current social conditioning and feminism. You can honestly say the same thing about the current state of affairs with us mend and that there's too much toxic masculinity going around. The truth is we all need to start looking to the past and how things work and how things were better and start improving our own behaviors and stop completely blaming the other sex for it. Another words we both need to take accountability for the way things are in society today we're not going to have a society left. Maybe my viewpoint and opinions are too generalized. I'll see what I can do to broaden them. Thanks for the 2 x 4 and your input
You guys need to take this philosophical dispute into its own thread. How and when did you tell your kids about your marriage problems?
When and how did you guys tell your kids? Did you tell that that there were marriage problems before separation?
A few weeks before XW was scheduled to move out. We both sat down with them, explained that XW was moving out because she needed some space but that it had nothing to do with the kids and that we both still loved them and would be there for them and to support them no matter what happened. We explained logistics to them, that they would have rooms at my house and XW's, that they would still go to the same school, that they would come home to my house after school on her weeks, etc. etc. We assured them that the change to their lives would be as minimal as we could make it other than them living with her in a different house every other week. We did not get into why we were separating and we did not mention a future divorce. Kids don't seem to be interested in explanations, they are more worried about logistics and they are irrationally afraid that the split is their fault. So that was our focus.
EDIT- just noticed you're over 10 pages, time for a new thread!
Please start a new thread and link both threads together.