Hi all,
New here and looking for help. 2 weeks ago my wife told me she wants a divorce. We have been married 13 years, together 18. We have one child, a 6 year old daughter. I bought the DR book and am about halfway through it.
She has been unhappy for a while and we've tried counseling, once a few years ago and then again last fall. Neither were really helpful and the more recent counselor seemed more to convince her that she should divorce me. We are still living together but she plans to move out soon with our daughter. I know I haven't been a great husband and have not met her needs. We both work full time, she works from home with a good amount of travel (has increased a lot the last year) and doesn't have much time for the family. Her main complaints are I'm not good with affection, I have a lot of hobbies that take time away from the family (although that has decreased a lot the last couple of years) and I don't help enough around the house and support her busy schedule. I don't think shes having an affair but I could see her getting close to a co-worker or perhaps someone else is giving her the attention that I didn't and that is helping solidify her decision.
I want nothing more than to save the marriage but it's a one way street. I know I could change to meet her needs but she is done giving me chances and any effort to our marriage. Although I haven't finished the book I'm far enough along that I know I need to work on detaching and GAL. The thing I'm having trouble with is I believe the root cause of her unhappiness is my detachment and my outside interests away from the family. I don't see how continuing that is going to help in any way but I don't really have any other options. We aren't fighting (we never really "fought" per say, I would typically shut down and ignore the problem and her needs) and she is not open to any kind of affection or talks of reconciliation.
I know my situation is not unique but I'm really lost here. I can give a lot more details if necessary although I feel there is no way forward. Appreciate any advice or help.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
How can you be a better DAD?
How can you be a better DAD?
What do you mean, to my daughter? I’m pretty confident that I am a great dad. Just need to be more patient with her at times so I’m working on that. Also trying to spend a lot of time with her now as that will inevitably decrease if wife moves out.
Do you know what stopped you being present and affectionate earlier on, if this has been addressed in your counselling before? Without blaming your wife for her shortcomings, is there something about you that makes it difficult for you to show love and affection, to give time and attention to someone else, to bury yourself in work? If there is, then is that something you can work on?
Now isn't the right time to shower your wife with affection and attention. But it is the right time to look at the roots of those problems in yourself.
I wish you well. It's a hard place we're in but you're not alone.
Do you know what stopped you being present and affectionate earlier on, if this has been addressed in your counselling before? Without blaming your wife for her shortcomings, is there something about you that makes it difficult for you to show love and affection, to give time and attention to someone else, to bury yourself in work? If there is, then is that something you can work on?
Now isn't the right time to shower your wife with affection and attention. But it is the right time to look at the roots of those problems in yourself.
I wish you well. It's a hard place we're in but you're not alone.
I’ve never been affectionate in our relationship, it’s just not how I show my love. My wife acknowledges this and says she was ok with it initially in our marriage but now needs more. She says she can’t expect me to change or keep hoping I will change. I know I can change and am working on myself. As stupid as it sounds I think it makes me feel vulnerable when I show affection that way, not sure why. Ironically, there’s nothing more than I want right now than to hold my wife and tell her I love her but it’s too late for that.
Might be a good idea to look into love languages and what yours is along with others.
Sounds like you speak a different one from what your wife hears.
Might be a good idea to look into love languages and what yours is along with others.
Sounds like you speak a different one from what your wife hears.
For sure. I’ve read the book, unfortunately it’s far too late for that at this point.
But the information is important to have, even if you can't put it into action right now. It will serve you for a R or for a future relationship.
Perhaps self care (GAL and detaching) need to be a higher priority. But sometimes our 180s can come from the feedback we've had from our spouses.
My H's LL is 'acts of service' and while I can't do too much for him in that department - we're not in piecing and not living together - I do try to bear in mind he's an 'actions speak louder than words' kind of guy, which means me speaking a bit less, and watching how he acts towards me.
If you can, I'd do a call (or calls) with the phone coaches.
You need a plan of attack, and you need change.
This doesn't sound like a WW or MLC, so at least she's sane (all the other people just want some sanity and we'd be golden).
It sounds like she's a regular woman with some emotional problems and got fed up.
The good thing is you know what you want, you know you have problems, and she's still there.
Here's what I would do.... you need to wooo her. You need to bend over backwards and sacrifice. AND you need to make it permanent. That means, you "change" for a little while, and go back to being what you were..... forget it, you're done (and I wouldn't blame her).
Now if it was a MLC W, don't do any of this, that's suicide. But for a real woman..... heck ya.
And the other thing.... this is VERY important. Enjoy it. Now about enjoyment: What you enjoy, everything..... is a CHOICE.
You may HATE doing dishes... do them and choose to enjoy it.
You don't like cleaning toilets..... do it, and choose to enjoy it.
Find out what she doesn't like doing the most, and DO IT. Did you neglect something which is important to her? Get on it, right now. Then do it again, and do it again, and do it again. Change your behavior.
Don't point it out to her. Don't say look at me. You need to HUMBLE yourself. You also need to pray for your wife, for yourself and for your marriage. Humble yourself. Change. Be the best man you can be. Then talk to her, probe her mind, start interesting conversation. Bring up good memories...... LISTEN and more importantly, HEAR. Shut your mount and don't try to fix her problems. Only act if she asks. Other than that, listen and hear. Women need their sounding board, and they need to know you care. Ask questions but do not try and solve their stuff yourself.
Make her happiness worth more to you then your own.
You still have a chance. Use it. It's not just time to man up, it's time to Husband up.
You can do it. Take action, not words.
-SoloFlex
Dad, sorry you are here and welcome.
I see you already struggling with detaching and GAL because of your wife's list of complaints. We all buck against that.
Think of your marriage alike a car. If all is going well, you do the routing maintenance. Changing the oil, tuneups etc. However, if you neglect the routine maintenance you will have a breakdown. After the breakdown it is too late to do the routine maintenance, and in fact, doing the routine maintenance would be a waste of time. An oil change isn't going to fix a blown engine.
So yeah, the temptation when she makes those complaints is to "180" on those and do the opposite of what you should do. Detachment and GAL doesn't mean you can't make some improvements. For me GAL was not a problem due to my hobbies, just like you. But detaching doesn't mean ignoring or being absent, quite the opposite. It means you don't react emotionally to what she says and does. So you can detach, continue to stay active and busy, but be present and alert, when you ARE around her.
Keep reading. Keep learning. My W was very much where yours was, and I was able to turn it around and save my MR with consistent DBing. I struggled for the first 4 weeks, but then got much better about it. DB, and save yourself! If your MR is saved too, then bonus.
If you can, I'd do a call (or calls) with the phone coaches.
You need a plan of attack, and you need change.
This doesn't sound like a WW or MLC, so at least she's sane (all the other people just want some sanity and we'd be golden).
It sounds like she's a regular woman with some emotional problems and got fed up.
The good thing is you know what you want, you know you have problems, and she's still there.
Here's what I would do.... you need to wooo her. You need to bend over backwards and sacrifice. AND you need to make it permanent. That means, you "change" for a little while, and go back to being what you were..... forget it, you're done (and I wouldn't blame her).
Now if it was a MLC W, don't do any of this, that's suicide. But for a real woman..... heck ya.
And the other thing.... this is VERY important. Enjoy it. Now about enjoyment: What you enjoy, everything..... is a CHOICE.
You may HATE doing dishes... do them and choose to enjoy it.
You don't like cleaning toilets..... do it, and choose to enjoy it.
Find out what she doesn't like doing the most, and DO IT. Did you neglect something which is important to her? Get on it, right now. Then do it again, and do it again, and do it again. Change your behavior.
Don't point it out to her. Don't say look at me. You need to HUMBLE yourself. You also need to pray for your wife, for yourself and for your marriage. Humble yourself. Change. Be the best man you can be. Then talk to her, probe her mind, start interesting conversation. Bring up good memories...... LISTEN and more importantly, HEAR. Shut your mount and don't try to fix her problems. Only act if she asks. Other than that, listen and hear. Women need their sounding board, and they need to know you care. Ask questions but do not try and solve their stuff yourself.
Make her happiness worth more to you then your own.
You still have a chance. Use it. It's not just time to man up, it's time to Husband up.
You can do it. Take action, not words.
-SoloFlex
Thanks soloflex. That’s pretty much what I’ve been doing. Helping out around the house, dinner, dishes, laundry, etc. I know she appreciates the help, I should have done this long ago. Unfortunately, she’s already given me chances to do this and I’ve failed. There’s something different about her this time. She talks about our future apart so matter-of-factly. She’s told her friends and mom (not her dad yet, her parents are divorced) that we are getting divorced. I’ve been doing my best to “detach” and talk about the future apart with her but it crushes my soul inside. I’m out of chances and ideas. I’m pretty humble but I’m also very successful and driven, I’ve been able to accomplish pretty much everything I’ve put my mind to but this may be where I fail. I don’t think I’d have any trouble finding love elsewhere but I’m not interested in that. I love my wife, the mother of my child, and that’s all I want.
DH,
If you aren't religious, or are agnostic.... I don't want this to offend. Skip if you want to....
Do you two go to church? IF you go (or used to go) to church, (and I only say this because she's sane and not a MLC/WW).... I'd try this: I'd ask her if she would pray with you. Get somewhere quiet, take her by both hands..... and lead the prayer. Don't be shy, and what is in there you tell God. She will hear and maybe reciprocate for the second half.
Now, this is important. IF she agrees to this, you have to do it every night. Every night. No exceptions.
She won't believe at first, she has to see this is real. God will do the rest.
You are soooo lucky to still have a sane wife. So lucky.
Now, if you two don't go to church, and aren't religious. Then the other part below applies.
Here's the other part, you have to pray for your wife, everyday. Multiple times a day. I would ask God to soften her heart so she may forgive you. There's a good book, it's called "The Power of a Praying Husband" by Stormie Omartian. That is a good place to start. Actually you may need to do this first before praying with her because you need to get close to God first. God does and will lead you if you ask him.... let God lead you, and as the man of the house, you lead her in prayer.
I can tell you 100% without a doubt, doing this is changing me for the better, I believe it is helping my MLC'er (although she still has to go thru the process, this isn't a cure) and I'm going to be a better man/husband for doing it. It is life changing. The commitment must be permanent and total. Realize too, that if you do this, you will probably be called to attend church. When this happens..... go. Go and go and go. Ask her to join you. God does miracles for those who humble themselves before him.
I sooooo wish I could do this with my MCL'er, but she's rebelling. No interest. Doesn't matter, her rebellion can't stop me from praying, and it can't stop God from doing his work in her.
You can DB like crazy and pray in secret (like crazy) for your W. That is a one-two punch.
I really wish the best for you,
-SoloFlex
Thanks soloflex. Neither of us are particularly religious so I don’t think praying together is an option. I may find religion here though because I could use something! We had a long talk last night. I could really feel all the hurt I have caused her by my actions/inactions and general lack of commitment to our marriage. She is too hurt to give me another chance. She asked a couple of times of how I could expect her to want to stay. I don’t, I can see she is so sad and is just looking for relief. I made it clear I still want our marriage to work but did not pressure her at all or ask for another chance. That was hard to do. She wants me to move out, I don’t think it’s a good idea to fight her on it. I also feel that separation will make it harder to show her changes but maybe some time away will be good for both of us.
Do not move out. Common mistake. Dad, you can't nice her back to the marriage. This is about respect now and there is no earning respect by moving out.
Next the she brings it up, say to her calmly: "After thinking it over I think it's best if I stay. I can't stop you from leaving however. I'd like for us to continue cohabitating until the divorced is worked out but that is up to you."
Moving out is usually a bad move. Even legally. An attorney would advise against it.
I agree don't move out.
Just make sure you are doing 180 on any and all toxic behaviors.
I know you said you felt detached when you were doing hobbies. But like it has been said before, there is a way to do hobbies and not ignore. No, you don't need to go run and try and pursue her.
Please don't go full charge like you are trying to date for the first time. You need to show that you can manage your hobbies and your family. You can't just drop your hobbies, because like steve says, this is about respect.
If you dropped your hobbies and went into super husband mode, she will feel its fake. So you need to make sure that you are taking care of yourself as well. Do you workout? If not, do it.
You just need to be present. If you are in a room and she is there, or even if she isnt there, and something needs to be done, just do it. Dishes etc, whatever needs to be done.
Are you affectionate with your daughter? You said you are a good dad, and I believe you are. But are you lovey dubby with your little girl? You are now focusing on yourself and your daughter. You need to make her feel like a princess. Make her feel loved, supported, comfortable, secure. Be super dad. Beyond super dad.
You will be bettering yourself and your relationship with your daughter. That is the point of DB. Then, this type of loving detachment from your W, will get noticed by her. Then, she may, just maybe decide its worth working on the M.
Just rememeber, you truly need to go from the thought of "I am going to do this so she notices so she loves me more" to "I am going to make this change or do XXX for me because that will make me a better person and will make me happy"
Or "I am going to make this change or take this action because my baby girl is going to love it and it will make her happy, and will show that I am a great father and will always be her dad and will always be there for her"
Its hard man. This is going to test your will more than anything in your entire life. But you will come out the end of it as a better person. You will come out of the end being a better father.
Thanks for the replies. More about the moving out though - initially she agreed to stay together in the family home while we worked through the divorce. After talking to one of her old friends one night she changed or mind on it, she said it will be too difficult emotionally and too confusing. She wants my daughter to stay with her and feels it would be easier on her to be in a familiar place once we split. I don’t want to move out but I also want what’s best for my daughter. Also, a couple of nights ago I went out with some friends for dinner/drinks (GAL) and ended up staying at their place for the night. My wife said my daughter was asking when I was going to go be home when she was putting her to bed at 8pm (I had already told her I would be out late) and she didn’t have an answer and my daughter was confused/worried. I think my wife was exaggerating this story some but used it as a anther reason why I need to move out. I agreed to start looking for a nearby place to rent, I’m nervous about reneging on that. Additional thoughts?
One more thing on me moving out - my wife works from home with a good amount of travel, she can live anywhere. She has been unhappy living in our town for a while, especially this last year after our neighbors moved away and she lost some support. In the last year, I have been actively seeking another job to allow us to move. Ironically, I just landed an interview for our dream job plan A a week after the BD. Plan B is for her to stay in our town for one more school year, after which we will both move to the same city and be able to co-parent our daughter. She said that if I stayed it the family house and she moved out she might as well move states with my daughter now so she doesn’t have to move her twice. Basically a veiled threat of taking my daughter away if I don’t move out. Even if I land the job I won’t be ready to move for at least a year so I’m in a tough spot here. May need to consult with an attorney.
Normally we do not tell people to move out,
I would not do it unless you are ordered to do it by a judge.
Yes consult with a lawyer, it is the #1 mistake men make in a divorce.
One more thing on me moving out - my wife works from home with a good amount of travel, she can live anywhere. She has been unhappy living in our town for a while, especially this last year after our neighbors moved away and she lost some support. In the last year, I have been actively seeking another job to allow us to move. Ironically, I just landed an interview for our dream job plan A a week after the BD. Plan B is for her to stay in our town for one more school year, after which we will both move to the same city and be able to co-parent our daughter. She said that if I stayed it the family house and she moved out she might as well move states with my daughter now so she doesn’t have to move her twice. Basically a veiled threat of taking my daughter away if I don’t move out. Even if I land the job I won’t be ready to move for at least a year so I’m in a tough spot here. May need to consult with an attorney.
Dadhurt, Cadet nailed it with his response. Yes, please consult an attorney.
As far as her veiled threat.........in general you should always DB from a position of strength, not of fear. Acting out of fear will cause you do do things that are detrimental to your efforts, not helpful. So don't move out because you are afraid she will move to another state. Know your rights. Knowledge is power.
Now I am going to tell you some other things to consider..................
Dad, I will write more later. I had typed out a long response and it got lost. I will try to recreate it in a little bit........
Dad, I was thinking about your sitch on my drive into work. It reminds me of a lot of my own sitch. As I said above in my analogy of the car. After BD, 180ing on my W's complaints would have gotten me no where. Not that I didn't need 180s, I did. But suddenly becoming super attentive, and becoming Mr. Mom around the house would not have got me to where I wanted to be. The routine maintenance that would have worked prior to BD would no longer work. Changing the oil of a blown engine is a waste of time and oil.
However, I did institute the below, and I think they might pay dividends in your sitch too. I am a huge proponent of detachment (in a healthy marriage called "self differentiation", I would google that because it can help with understanding), GAL, and 180s. And those should be your focus because they focus on you not her. The temptation right now is to be hyper-focused on her, and that will just apply pressure to her and cause her to run even further away. But here some other things I learned and did:
1) Learn to be a good listner. Prior to BD I was a horrible listener. I, like you, had a ton of hobbies. And I was a huge sports fanatic. i wouldn't even look up from what I was doing no matter how important or serious the conversation she was trying to have was. And if she asked me to pause what I was watching or doing, I did so with a huge amount of attitude, sighing heavily, and making her feel like a huge interruption. After BD I came across some advice on active listening to my spouse and went like this: STOP what you are doing. TURN to her. MAKE eye contact with her. CONCENTRATE on what she is saying. STOP TURN MAKE CONCENTRATE. Learn that and remember it. Use it at every opportunity that she gives you from here on out. After I practiced this and got good at it, I got really good at pausing, muting, or better yet, turning off the TV to listen to her. Also, I would do the same with anything else I was doing. After all, nothing I could be watching or doing could be more important to me than her! And remembering that made it much easier to do.
2) Learn to empathize. I was watching Spiderman 3 this weekend. And there is a great scene where Mary Jane comes to Peter's apartment wanting to confide in him about a bad review a critic had written about her Broadway performance. Peter launched into typical guy "trying to fix it mode". What Mary Jane really wanted from him was for him to listen and empathize with how she was feeling. Around here we call it "validation". For me it was a struggle. I am a fix it guy. If she comes to me and says her step-sister was mean, I want to go into remediation mode. What I learned to do was SHUT-UP first (see #1)....LISTEN.......and VALIDATE. As guys we like to launch into advice, or telling them not feel what they are feeling, or how we would handle it. Most of the time our wives don't want that. That want to be HEARD and EMPATHIZED with. We have a thread here called The Validation Thread. Dad, have you read it? It goes along with the active listening technique very well. "Oh wow, I can understand how that would make you feel." Things like that. Do not fix. Do not advise. Do not tell her how you would handle it. Let her know you understand what she is going through.
3) Institute talk charges. This one is controversial because many see it as pressure and pursuit. But I think it can be done without pressuring or pursuing. Once a day, find something small to tell her. Something interesting. Or somthing funny. Or something she can relate to. Call her up and just go like this: "Hey, I was driving to work this morning and this news item came on the radio. Apparently if you mix 1 part apple cider vinegar to 1 part water, you can clean the dogs' ears with it and it will prevent ear infections! Thought that was a neat tip. Okay, talk to you later." and hang up. This can even be done on VOICEMAIL! When was the last time you did that to her? Just gave her a quick fact, or funny story, or something, and then hung up. Do not get into any thing logistical. Do not try to fix a problem for her. And certainly do not get into anything relationship oriented. But just keep it quick, fun, and then hang on. Continue to do this, and not only will she come to expect it, she will look forward to it. Eventually my W, who on BD wanted nothing to do with me, started reciprocating. I couldn't believe it. And believe it or not we started to connect over these "talk charges".
4) Optional: Touch charge. Similar to talk charges. As you pass her in the kitchen just lightly brush up against her. Maybe she is at the sink and you have to pass behind her, put your hand lightly on the small of her back and you scoot past. Be careful with this one. No sexual touching. Be discrete and subtle with these. And don't go out of your wait to create them, just as you get the opportunity.
In your sitch, be careful with that last one. My W was resistant to touch, but over time it slowly broke the ice.
Remember, avoid R talks like the plague. Obviously, never start one. If she starts one, listen (see #1!), validate. If she asks questions feel free to give her answer like "There is so much to consider, I am still thinking things over and needs some time to respond to that." Things like that. When there is no question, listen and validate. Validation is great because it isn't agreement. You aren't agreeing with what she is saying you are just letting her know you hear, and that you understand her perspective. That's it.
Dad, I know it seems dire. My sitch seemed dire too. But as I instituted self-improvements, once I did #1 and #2 at every opportunity I had, as I broke the ice with her with talk charges, and reintroduced my touch with touch charges that were subtle and discrete, she started to warm back up to me. I think you have a similar opportunity using a similar formula.
Dad, I was thinking about your sitch on my drive into work. It reminds me of a lot of my own sitch. As I said above in my analogy of the car. After BD, 180ing on my W's complaints would have gotten me no where. Not that I didn't need 180s, I did. But suddenly becoming super attentive, and becoming Mr. Mom around the house would not have got me to where I wanted to be. The routine maintenance that would have worked prior to BD would no longer work. Changing the oil of a blown engine is a waste of time and oil.
However, I did institute the below, and I think they might pay dividends in your sitch too. I am a huge proponent of detachment (in a healthy marriage called "self differentiation", I would google that because it can help with understanding), GAL, and 180s. And those should be your focus because they focus on you not her. The temptation right now is to be hyper-focused on her, and that will just apply pressure to her and cause her to run even further away. But here some other things I learned and did:
1) Learn to be a good listner. Prior to BD I was a horrible listener. I, like you, had a ton of hobbies. And I was a huge sports fanatic. i wouldn't even look up from what I was doing no matter how important or serious the conversation she was trying to have was. And if she asked me to pause what I was watching or doing, I did so with a huge amount of attitude, sighing heavily, and making her feel like a huge interruption. After BD I came across some advice on active listening to my spouse and went like this: STOP what you are doing. TURN to her. MAKE eye contact with her. CONCENTRATE on what she is saying. STOP TURN MAKE CONCENTRATE. Learn that and remember it. Use it at every opportunity that she gives you from here on out. After I practiced this and got good at it, I got really good at pausing, muting, or better yet, turning off the TV to listen to her. Also, I would do the same with anything else I was doing. After all, nothing I could be watching or doing could be more important to me than her! And remembering that made it much easier to do.
2) Learn to empathize. I was watching Spiderman 3 this weekend. And there is a great scene where Mary Jane comes to Peter's apartment wanting to confide in him about a bad review a critic had written about her Broadway performance. Peter launched into typical guy "trying to fix it mode". What Mary Jane really wanted from him was for him to listen and empathize with how she was feeling. Around here we call it "validation". For me it was a struggle. I am a fix it guy. If she comes to me and says her step-sister was mean, I want to go into remediation mode. What I learned to do was SHUT-UP first (see #1)....LISTEN.......and VALIDATE. As guys we like to launch into advice, or telling them not feel what they are feeling, or how we would handle it. Most of the time our wives don't want that. That want to be HEARD and EMPATHIZED with. We have a thread here called The Validation Thread. Dad, have you read it? It goes along with the active listening technique very well. "Oh wow, I can understand how that would make you feel." Things like that. Do not fix. Do not advise. Do not tell her how you would handle it. Let her know you understand what she is going through.
3) Institute talk charges. This one is controversial because many see it as pressure and pursuit. But I think it can be done without pressuring or pursuing. Once a day, find something small to tell her. Something interesting. Or somthing funny. Or something she can relate to. Call her up and just go like this: "Hey, I was driving to work this morning and this news item came on the radio. Apparently if you mix 1 part apple cider vinegar to 1 part water, you can clean the dogs' ears with it and it will prevent ear infections! Thought that was a neat tip. Okay, talk to you later." and hang up. This can even be done on VOICEMAIL! When was the last time you did that to her? Just gave her a quick fact, or funny story, or something, and then hung up. Do not get into any thing logistical. Do not try to fix a problem for her. And certainly do not get into anything relationship oriented. But just keep it quick, fun, and then hang on. Continue to do this, and not only will she come to expect it, she will look forward to it. Eventually my W, who on BD wanted nothing to do with me, started reciprocating. I couldn't believe it. And believe it or not we started to connect over these "talk charges".
4) Optional: Touch charge. Similar to talk charges. As you pass her in the kitchen just lightly brush up against her. Maybe she is at the sink and you have to pass behind her, put your hand lightly on the small of her back and you scoot past. Be careful with this one. No sexual touching. Be discrete and subtle with these. And don't go out of your wait to create them, just as you get the opportunity.
In your sitch, be careful with that last one. My W was resistant to touch, but over time it slowly broke the ice.
Remember, avoid R talks like the plague. Obviously, never start one. If she starts one, listen (see #1!), validate. If she asks questions feel free to give her answer like "There is so much to consider, I am still thinking things over and needs some time to respond to that." Things like that. When there is no question, listen and validate. Validation is great because it isn't agreement. You aren't agreeing with what she is saying you are just letting her know you hear, and that you understand her perspective. That's it.
Dad, I know it seems dire. My sitch seemed dire too. But as I instituted self-improvements, once I did #1 and #2 at every opportunity I had, as I broke the ice with her with talk charges, and reintroduced my touch with touch charges that were subtle and discrete, she started to warm back up to me. I think you have a similar opportunity using a similar formula.
Steve,
Thank you so much for the thoughtful post. You are absolutely right with the car analogy. The car is totaled and I’m trying to give it a detail by helping out more. I also have not been a good listener. We had a good discussion yesterday when she brought up a difficult situation at her work. I listened intently and validated, also gave some advice but she did directly ask what I would do. I also asked for some advice on my upcoming job interview. We are still in a place where we can discuss stuff like that. She also likes to discuss the separation etc. so I have to do that too.
I’ll keep the touch stuff in mind too. That is the kind of minor affection that she would have loved previously. I’ll have to be very careful though as you said.
I’m also going to look in to a consult with an attorney.
That’s pretty much what I’ve been doing. Helping out around the house, dinner, dishes, laundry, etc. I know she appreciates the help, I should have done this long ago.
A lot of us became the world's greatest housekeeper after BD. It's like Steve said though, that's like getting an oil change after you've thrown a rod through the side of the block. Some beta behavior (in combination with alpha) is great in a happy marriage, but after your M crashes and burns then doubling down on beta behavior just looks weak and pathetic to the WAS. You've got to get back in touch with your alpha side. The sooner the better.
There’s something different about her this time. She talks about our future apart so matter-of-factly. She’s told her friends and mom (not her dad yet, her parents are divorced) that we are getting divorced.
Yes, BD is different than anything you've been through before. This isn't just another fight that you can sooth over with some flowers. She is DONE. For now anyway. With time that may change, but there is no quick fix to "get things back to normal". She is following the typical pattern. Believe us when we say you have a long road ahead.
I’m out of chances and ideas. I’m pretty humble but I’m also very successful and driven, I’ve been able to accomplish pretty much everything I’ve put my mind to but this may be where I fail.
You haven't even been at this a month!!! And you're out of chances and ideas? Brother you are still standing at the starting line of the marathon waiting for the gun to go off! You have not even STARTED the hard work! Everyone comes here wanting to know what magic spell to chant to make the nightmare go away. There isn't one. You've got a lot of hard work ahead, and this will test your patience like nothing you've been through. Buckle yourself in!
Alright, a few updates on my sitch:
I took the advice given and consulted with an attorney (my wife does not know this). He said it was ok to move out of the house if I had to, better to do it that way rather then forcing her to file and try to get a court order for me to move. Also got a better idea of how the divorce would proceed if amicable.
I also had a phone consult with DB coach Lani, I purchased 3. Most of time was spent with me getting her up to speed. She thinks my wife is potentially depressed, having a minor MLC, peri-minipausual or some combination of all 3. There is also a minor emotional affair blossoming with someone in her work industry that isn't helping. Lani's advice is to stay in the house if at all possible and give her space while treating her like an appreciated houseguest. That's pretty much what I've been doing. I plan to have another consult next week.
Wife and I had an interesting conversation last night as she was going to bed. She asked if "we were still friends". She said that she knows I'm angry and she's worried that I'm going to file some sort of papers to undermine the divorce and/or custody. I wanted to scream at her "you are the one that wants a divorce, WTF would I file and get the ball rolling" but I remained calm and validated. I admitted that I am angry but that is overshadowed by the hurt and sadness that she has given up on our marriage. I told her that I need to work on myself and improve. She said that she's noticed how I've stepped up as a father and that is what she always wanted. She also said that I'm a great guy with so much to offer and I will be able to make someone else very happy. There was a little more to the conversation but I think those are the important points. Very hard to remember everything as I've slept so poorly since BD 2.5 weeks ago and I'm exausted.
So no real progress, we'll see how the weekend goes. I expect we will end up doing seperate activites this weekend with our daughter and she will bring up me moving out again. If I end up moving out I suspect I'll have to go full up LRT but hope to get some more insight from my DB coach if/when it comes to that.
Thoughts?
D,
You are very smart for getting legal advice. What would not be smart of you to do is move out. If she is not happy then she should move out.
No mentioned no real progress. What kind of progress are you expecting so early in the process?
D,
You are very smart for getting legal advice. What would not be smart of you to do is move out. If she is not happy then she should move out.
No mentioned no real progress. What kind of progress are you expecting so early in the process?
The reason for me moving out is she wants our daughter to stay with her and in the house so there is less change for her. I agree this is probably better for our daughter, but I also think that regardless of how we explain it I will look like the bad guy as daddy is leaving.
I'm not expecting any progress but still trying to be hopeful!
Why can't your daughter stay in the house with you?
Whats best for the daughter is having both parents in the same home. Whats best is you not moving and staying put.
Yes I am moving. But my MR is over. D was finalized. So my last move is me moving out. Kids 50 50.
You are very early in your sitch. You need to set the pace. If smyour W wants out she can leave. If she wants no change for your D, she can stay or leave D with you.
Dont move out.
Can you guys explain what is so disadvantageous about me moving out? Part of me thinks it would be good for us to both have some space. Although she thinks I don’t do enough around the house I think she’s in for a rude awakening on her own. Also, one of my buddies was 2 weeks from his divorce being finalized when he reconciled, he said him moving out and them being apart made them realize what they had. Sample of 1 I know.
Why can't your daughter stay in the house with you?
My wife is the primary caretaker and attorney said our local judges will always order the child stays with primary caretaker (especially if it is the mother) during a court ordered separation.
Because we've seen it before where the guy moved out and it just amped up his WAW's disrespect for him. Remember you are trying to get her to respect you now. Even when she doesn't like you. Make her respect you. Tucking your tail and leaving does that how?
You're buddy got lucky. Listen to the coach.
Because we've seen it before where the guy moved out and it just amped up his WAW's disrespect for him. Remember you are trying to get her to respect you now. Even when she doesn't like you. Make her respect you. Tucking your tail and leaving does that how?
You're buddy got lucky. Listen to the coach.
I’ve always worn the pants in the marriage. I don’t think there’s a lack of respect from her, if anything I didn’t show enough respect to her a lot of times. I’m not trying to argue, I’m just not sure if this is the sword to fall on with more of the same behavior that pushed her away.
Because we've seen it before where the guy moved out and it just amped up his WAW's disrespect for him. Remember you are trying to get her to respect you now. Even when she doesn't like you. Make her respect you. Tucking your tail and leaving does that how?
You're buddy got lucky. Listen to the coach.
I’ve always worn the pants in the marriage. I don’t think there’s a lack of respect from her, if anything I didn’t show enough respect to her a lot of times. I’m not trying to argue, I’m just not sure if this is the sword to fall on with more of the same behavior that pushed her away.
Dad, we tell posters here what works. What you do is entirely up to you. However, DBing is about doing what is counter-intuitive. One thing I would do when I started DBing was to think what my instincts told me, and then do the opposite. I mean if you are just going to do what comes naturally then why do you need this site? Or DBing? Or advice based on all of that?
Wives don't D men they are attracted to. And they aren't attracted to men they don't respect. So believe it or not it is about respect. I mean how is all of this a show of respect on her part?!
And a judge isnt going to order your daughter to stay with the mom. You are a parent, you have equal rights to your daughter. Custody is always 50 50 unless there is abuse. Leaving your daughter is not a good idea. Its not more stable for you to leave her. Its more stable for you to be in her life and live with her.
Like Steve said, your W is acting like this because she lost respect for you. Its all about respect. My EXWW wouldnt have cheated on me with her boss who a foot shorter than her, bald and 20 years older if she respected me.
Ok, got it. Thanks Steve. Next question, what to do about about blossoming emotional affair? OM is in same industry, lives 1500 miles away. Gives her lots of praise about her job performance, lots of small talk about weekend plans, traveling, etc. Wife suggests FaceTime with wine to discuss work stuff. Great. Obviously she likes the attention and praise that she wasn’t getting from me and it hurts. Tough to compete with as I can’t do any of that now. She plays the victim to her family and friends about how she gave everything to our marriage and I just wouldn’t change and she’s not the “bad guy”. Think they might have a different opinion if they knew what she was doing.
Nothing. You do nothing.
Remember when you were a kid. And someone told you not do something. "Don't go into that room." "Stay out of the cookies." "Don't watch that movie." It made you want to do it more than ever, didn't it?
WAWs are like rebellious teenagers. The minute you make something taboo, or tell them not to do it, or show displeasure at it the more she will want to do it. Besides, this guy is not your problem. We tend to focus on the OM. Your problem is trying to regain respect, and therefore attraction from your W. And you do that by leaving her alone, giving her space, and foscusing on yourself, your GAL, your detachment, your 180s. Leave her to figure her stuff out.
The more you try to control her the more she will want to do things you don't approve of. You have to back off and leave her alone. As hard as that is to do.
Can you guys explain what is so disadvantageous about me moving out?
The family home is the castle. The marital bed is the throne. Cede either to your W and she will have even less respect for you. To make matters worse, she may quickly have an OM visiting and doing overnights in YOUR house sleeping in YOUR bed. Or she may very well move OM right in. We've seen it happen before. How would you like going to your house to pick up your kids and having OM answer the door in pajamas with a drink in his hand? I really hope you have more respect for yourself than that. If she can't stand you then fine, SHE can move out. That's her choice to make.
Also the family home is the "safe place" the kids need during this rough time. You will have to be their anchor because your W will probably be a loose cannon for a while. So be their anchor in their safe place.
Although she thinks I don’t do enough around the house I think she’s in for a rude awakening on her own.
It is a classic LBS mistake to move out thinking it will "wake her up". I assure you that is not how it will play out. She will like having you gone, but at the same time she will resent that you are still not doing enough. She will expect you to mow, fix things, etc. all while she plays house with someone else.
Also, one of my buddies was 2 weeks from his divorce being finalized when he reconciled, he said him moving out and them being apart made them realize what they had. Sample of 1 I know.
I'm sure that's true, but I've been here a long time and I've never seen it play out that way. More often that not it backfires.
Thanks for all the advice - here's an update, or really just some journaling:
Weekend was as expected, we ended up doing separate activities with my daughter. I thought I was maybe making some headway as I heard her vacillating a little to a friend about the D decision on Friday. I may have made a mistake that evening - my dad had sent a long email to the both of us earlier that day - it was heartfelt and supportive for the both of us but it was obvious that both he and my mom are hurting, my mom has some health problems and news of the D hasn't helped. That really got to me, I ended up having some drinks that evening and talking to an old friend that I've lost contact with over the years - I made plans to visit him and my parents and after a brief consultation with the wife I bought a plane ticket for Saturday, felt I really needed to get away and need some support. I could tell she was upset but said it was fine. The next morning I realized it was a rash decision so I canceled the ticket, decided to stay and spend time with my daughter.
Wife asked me last night if I'd looked any more at moving out. I stated that I don't see moving out as beneficial for our daughter and that I will end up looking like I'm abandoning her regardless of how we explain it. She stated that we need to provide a united front and explain to her that it's a mutual decision - I said "so you want me to lie to her?" This set her off - she says we can't remain in the house together due to setting a bad example of marriage to our daughter. She used the example of me planning to leave on Saturday and from the previous weekend when I stayed at a friends house after going out for the evening - I was out GAL and she was upset that I didn't inform her exactly where and what I was doing and she didn't have an explanation for why I wasn't home.
I've done my best not to start any R conversations or plead, etc. but when she brings up the future I've also made it clear that I'm not giving up on the marriage and am making improvements for myself. This seems to anger her - she feels I gave up on the marriage years ago and I should be agreeing with everything she wants. She actually wants me to file for divorce. She's worried about how she appears to our family and friends, that she's the "bad guy" for wanting out when she deserves more and I haven't met her needs. This really is mostly my fault but I cant give up on her and our family. I know I could make her happy if she could forgive. She says she forgives me but can't be married to me - then goes on to bring up ways in which I've hurt her. She's rewriting the past a bit by only remembering the bad times. I haven't argued and have validated but then she says I'm shaming her. She says she changed herself to provide what she thought I wanted, she gave up on affection and intimacy, cooked, cleaned and provided etc. while giving me my space for hobbies. The thing is that's not what I wanted - I want the same things she does we just lost our connection along the way and haven't been able to get it back. She's also been in to a lot of self help stuff lately, Ted talks, empowering women to deserve love, etc.
Since we can't decide on a way forward she wants to meet with a separation counselor to help us make decisions about living arrangements, how to tell our daughter and co-parent, etc. I've agreed to do this,just not sure how to find the correct person. Still flailing and reeling here, trying my best to DB.
I made plans to visit him and my parents and after a brief consultation with the wife I bought a plane ticket for Saturday, felt I really needed to get away and need some support. I could tell she was upset but said it was fine. The next morning I realized it was a rash decision so I canceled the ticket, decided to stay and spend time with my daughter.
I understand you're going through a lot of crazy emotions right now but try to avoid drinking and making hasty decisions because inconsistency and vacillation are just going to make things worse. You need to be the rock right now.
Wife asked me last night if I'd looked any more at moving out. I stated that I don't see moving out as beneficial for our daughter and that I will end up looking like I'm abandoning her regardless of how we explain it.
There is no need to make excuses, just tell her you thought about it and you're definitely, 100% not moving out. Period. Tell her if she chooses to move out then that's her decision. Stand strong and firm.
She used the example of me planning to leave on Saturday and from the previous weekend when I stayed at a friends house after going out for the evening - I was out GAL and she was upset that I didn't inform her exactly where and what I was doing and she didn't have an explanation for why I wasn't home.
A lot of LBS's get tripped up on this, they think GAL means just disappear and don't tell your W anything. If you are under the same roof and sharing parental responsibilities then don't just disappear, that is very disrespectful. You don't have to give her all the details but do let her know if you make plans to do something so she knows she has to watch D.
She actually wants me to file for divorce. She's worried about how she appears to our family and friends, that she's the "bad guy" for wanting out when she deserves more and I haven't met her needs.
"W, I do not want a divorce. I want to work on the M with you. But I understand that is not what you want and that you wish to pursue D. I will not try to stop you, I will respect your wishes. But don't ask me to do the work for you, I most certainly will not as it is not what I want."
I know I could make her happy if she could forgive. She says she forgives me but can't be married to me - then goes on to bring up ways in which I've hurt her. She's rewriting the past a bit by only remembering the bad times.
Very typical. But that is the way she sees things now so you have to be mindful of that. She's not lying or making it up, this really is how she remembers things. It will change with time.
Since we can't decide on a way forward she wants to meet with a separation counselor to help us make decisions about living arrangements, how to tell our daughter and co-parent, etc. I've agreed to do this,just not sure how to find the correct person.
Again, DON'T DO THE WORK FOR HER. If she wants to meet with a separation counselor that's fine but SHE needs to set it up, not you.
Thanks anotherstander, that all makes sense. I did attempt to find a separation counselor before I read your post but didn’t have any luck so I will leave it up to her.
I wouldn't go to a separation counselor. That's just weird to me and I think a lot of LBS will "do anything" to get the WAS back. That attitude doesn't serve the LBS well though.
I wouldn't go telling her you want to work on the marriage either - she already knows that right? So change it up IMO.
I wouldn't go to a separation counselor. That's just weird to me and I think a lot of LBS will "do anything" to get the WAS back. That attitude doesn't serve the LBS well though.
I wouldn't go telling her you want to work on the marriage either - she already knows that right? So change it up IMO.
I think you're right, I need to change it up.
Not much has changed in the sitch - we've been civil and hadn't talked more about moving out. Wife started IC yesterday with a young married female counselor. Wife said she likes her and is going to continue to see her. I'm sure this isn't going to help the sitch as wife will only tell her of all the lonely times and look for conformation that she's making the right decision which I'm sure the IC will do.
Someone asked me "why do you want to be with someone who has made it clear that they don't want to be with you?" This made me really stop and think. The obvious answer is that I love my wife and child, think we could be a happy successful family if she would forgive and give me a chance to make her happy. But how long am I going to hold out?
The GAL concept is interesting - some of the problems in my marriage stem from me having too much of a life outside of the family. For me, I think GAL is going to be me moving toward a life without my wife as my wife. I'm tired of feeling sad, hurt, and guilty for not being the husband I could be. I can't live in the past mistakes, only improve for the future.
I told my wife this morning that I'm open to seperation counseling and a "nesting seperation". This is where we get a seperate place and take turns living in the old family home with daughter. This gives us equal time with our daughter and does not make it look like one of us is the bad person or abondoning her. I think this is the most fair if she wants seperation. I'm sure she will discuss with her IC.
Not sure if this is in line with DB but basically I'm tired of waiting in limbo for her to push me out of the house, file, etc. I want to take back some control of my life and make it clear that I'm moving on with my life, with or without her. She's not going to be the one deciding everything.
Thoughts?
Ok - an update and journaling for some thoughts -
Wife and I had a couple of long talks last night after me bringing up "nesting separation" and using a separation counselor yesterday morning. I had sent her a couple of articles on the benefits of nesting. I have a job interview in July that if successful will require me to attend training for 6 weeks and then I will be traveling a lot. She stated that if I get the job I won't be around much and it would make more sense for both of us to just stay in the house rather than having an additional place that isn't getting used much. This was my suggestion all along but somehow she now seems agreeable to it. Not sure why.
I also told her that I have been having some good introspection and I am "ready to move on". That's not entirely true and I didn't mean for it to come out that way. After I said that she became obviously upset and said something to the effect of "lets get things rolling then, you're ready, I'm ready, etc." Not sure why she was upset as this is what she wants but we then talked about splitting finances, bills, etc while living together. The conversation got interrupted by daughter coming inside from playing.
After daughter went to bed we continued the conversation. I stated that "I'm ready to move on" came out wrong and that I'm just trying do what's best in a difficult situation and not be selfish by respecting her choice while making decisions on what's best for our daughter. We talked for a while about what the future may look like, near term and after moving. It was a good exercise on detaching as I was able to speak mostly matter-of-factly on the in-house separation and what co-parenting will look like after divorce. Of course she became defensive at times and brought up a few marriage problems while teary eyed, I did my best to validate and not argue with her perception.
Not sure if this is progress or not, and I know I shouldn't be trying to analyse every conversation. The good news is I'm able to talk with her about our futures after a potential divorce and not feel totally lost and hurt, a small step toward detachment but I'm still very far away from that. Just taking it day by day.
1) No R talks mean NO R talks. Why would you bring up nesting? That is her thing. Rule #2 after NO R TALKS, is DO NOT DO THE WAS's dirty work for them! Do not start R talks unless you like having your teeth kicked in. If she starts one you listen...validate....and then end it as soon as you can. "We will need to finish this later, I have to.......<insert something you need to go do>. If she asks questions: "So have you considered the nesting suggestion?" You answer like this: "I need more time to consider everything, there is a lot to process."
2) Nesting never works. Read the sitches here that have tried it. The LBS ends up miserable. Jay is going through it right now. Nesting causes more problems then it solves. She wants to walk away, your position should be: "I can't stop you from leaving and I won't try. But I am not going anywhere."
3) Why would you back down from your statement on being ready? So she got upset. BOO HOO. Walkaways do this all the time. "I want out." "Ok, I can't stop you. I will move on." "Wait! What? You aren't sad, crying, begging, pleading? When you behave in ways the WAS doesn't anticipate sometimes they don't like it. That is why DBing is so effective!! It makes you behave in ways they don't expect. If you read sitches where people handled BD properly out of the gate, those sitches have a high % of Ring. You should not have backed down from it. The fact is you are ready to move on, because the alternative is NOT move on. How is that a thing? Not moving on? What are you going to start talking to yourself, eating out of dumpsters and sleeping on park benches? What does NOT moving on look like? It isn't really even an option.
4) Stop trying to gauge progress. Progress is consistent behavior where she is trying to R over a long period of time. Being okay with you being away so much is not progress! Even if it made her back down from nesting. But the fact that you have thermometer out all the time taking her temperature is not DBing. It is not not asserting pressure. It IS a subtle form of pursuit. "I said this, she reacted this way...." "I said that, she reacted that way....." It is like be observed from above all the time. And WASs will rebel against that. And this is why starting R talks, and engaging in them if she does, is a bad idea. Because it nets you nothing.
Stop talking. Start acting. ACTION....not words. And the best thing you can do is NOT start R talks. Not engage in them. And certainly do not entertain her hairbrained schemes.....like nesting.
Not sure what articles you've read on the benefits of nesting, but they are bunk. Sorry to be blunt. Anyone that writes a pro-nesting article either is clueless, or is not anti-divorce.
I had sent her a couple of articles on the benefits of nesting.
DON'T DO THE WORK FOR HER. Your job is to give her time and space. If she wants S or D then fine, let her deal with that. NOT YOU.
I also told her that I have been having some good introspection and I am "ready to move on".
Really. So you got BD'd in mid-May and here you are 3 weeks later ready to move on and split. You think you might be rushing things just a teeny bit? Or trying to get some kind of reaction out of W? A lot of people do this, they try to "nice" their spouse back through begging, pleading, negotiating and gift-giving and when it doesn't work they resort to trying to "mean" them back by threats of S or D or being "ready to move on". That doesn't work either, so then usually it's back to begging and pleading.
After I said that she became obviously upset and said something to the effect of "lets get things rolling then, you're ready, I'm ready, etc." Not sure why she was upset as this is what she wants
She's upset because you're applying pressure. Whether you are begging to get back together or insisting it's time to split it is STILL a relationship talk and it is STILL pressure. Remove all pressure!
I stated that "I'm ready to move on" came out wrong and that I'm just trying do what's best in a difficult situation and not be selfish by respecting her choice while making decisions on what's best for our daughter. We talked for a while about what the future may look like, near term and after moving. It was a good exercise on detaching as I was able to speak mostly matter-of-factly on the in-house separation and what co-parenting will look like after divorce.
I think maybe you misunderstand detachment. Detachment is not initiating convos like that AT ALL.
If you're truly ready to move on it will be important to show rather than tell. Now if you don't show her that you are moving on then you're doing the same as her and just throwing out words b/c you're hurt.
Thanks for the advice guys. I thought I was applying some techniques out of the DR book by trying different approaches and seeing the reaction to guage progress. True I'm not ready to move on but I am able to see the posibility of life without being married so I think that's a start. I didn't see my words/actions as pursuit but can see how it might be a form of pressure. I'm just a little worried that her seeing a IC is going to accerlate things when her decisions and feelings are going to be vaildated, especially with only one side of the story.
You can't control that. So you have to let it go to be what ever it is. She may decide to follow through. She may not. There are many varied things that are influencing her. One may or may not be this IC.
One of the things we LBSs struggle with the most is giving up control of things we can't control. She is going to see this IC whether you like it or not. Now she may stop seeing the IC if she doesn't like it. But that is outside of your control.
Focus on what YOU can control, and that is you. The worst thing you can do is to DB while looking over your shoulder to see if she is noticing. And if she is noticing how she is reacting.
Have you heard the analogy of the picnic? Where you are having a picnic. By yourself. Your W may or may not join you. May or may not even notice you are having a picnic. But you don't care, because you are enjoying your own picnic.
I wrote this post to another poster a while back that was struggling with this concept. You can find the original here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2816570#Post2816570But this is what I wrote:
Your picnic is like this:
"Should I start eating or wait for her? Is she coming? Is that her? No that was a tree limb blowing in the breeze. Maybe she will come from the other direction. No I don't see her over there either. Okay I guess I will eat this sandwich. Boy this sandwich would taste so much better if she was sitting on this blanket next to me. Is that her? Nope, Bummer. I guess I will have to eat these cupcakes without her. Shucks, I brought 2, one for each of us."
Your picnic is centered around her........not you.
Detachment is about not reacting emotionally to anything she says or does. It takes time. It takes effort. But once you achieve it the relief is incredible, and the effects on her can be huge.
You control yourself D. Only yourself.
No fear!
Thanks for the thoughts everyone - some updates from the weekend:
Wife changed her mind on the seperation, nesting, etc. options and agreed to stay together in the house for the time being.
We actually had a good weekend together. On Saturday we went to the pool together as a family. She had some friends there who she hung out with, I spent time with my daugther and wife and I chatted alone a little too. We went home and I barbequed for the family and we watched TV together after daughter went to bed.
On Sunday my wife had plans to take our daugther to lunch and a movie. As they were about to leave she invited me to come along. I was really suprised but I didn't have any other plans so I went along. It was pleasant, we made dinner together after the movie and again watched TV after daughter went to bed. So nothing remarkable really but we spent some time together as a family which was nice, really for our daughter I think. Defininitely no R talks by either of us but some bit of semi-normalcy after BD a month ago.
I did my 3rd coaching session with my DB coach on Monday. She recommeded I write an apology letter which I've been working on. Also saw an IC for help with more of the emotional side - he thinks my wife and I both have some issues from pervious relationships and/or childhood that have led to our problems. I'm sure we'll get much deeper in to that next time.
Question mainly for Steve85 but if others are familiar - anyone used Mort Fertels Marriage fitness material? I started working on some of it and it's pretty similar to DB techniques with a few key differences. I ask Steve85 specifically becuase he recommended "talk charges" and "touch charges" and I think that's where he got it from.
The main difference I see is when you get to the pursuit part. Mort recommends tableing problems, rebuilding connection and then tackling past problems - something easier to do if you are both open to it. Mort doesn't recommend giving a ton of space when you have an "obstinate spouse" (WAS) because he believes you are giving them what they want and clearing their concience to proceed with the divorce. He says the WAS will do everything in their power to get you to go along with their agenda, and by not backing down in pursuit (with some caveats) and instituting change with actions not words you will keep them conflicted in their decisions. Basically similar to BAMOAFWL but still initiating contact with the WAS.
Curious on others thoughts or experiences with these types of ideas that are similar but slighty different than strict DB.
Yes, I bought Mort's program not long after my BD. And there is a lot of wisdom and logic in it. However, I think Mort's program is better suited to the situation where one spouse feels the other puling away. Once you get to BD it is too late for many of Mort's techniques. For example, date night. Most obstinate spouses are not interested in dating the spouse they just BD'd.
I also think that you have to be careful with some of the techniques. Pursuit and pressure DO NOT work in in 99.99999% of post-BD sitches. But some of his wisdom on the thoughts and feelings of the walkaway (obstinate) spouse are spot on and insightful.
I got value from his program listening to the material, doing the exercises. The Q&A was outstanding.I started doing the talk charges right away. I worked touch charges in, subtly. Date night was saved until after our MC got us to a point and suggested it. I do like how he kept hammering home that that there were no guarantees. That you couldn't control the obstinate spouse and that you had to focus one what you can control, yourself. But you have to be careful because some of the tactics are pursuit and pressure.
I used some of his tactics but really skewed more towards DBing. Where they agreed I absolutely did them Where they deviated I trended more towards DBing.
I am very interested to hear more about this Mort course. I get very mixed messages from my wife on needing space. She wants me to continue to be her partner, i.e. cook dinner and do the dished WITH her, other chores TOGETHER, and put the kids to bed. When she says that she wants space, she seems to suggest no romantic pursuit or manufacturing family events like outings and vacations.
She says that she is not mad at me and isn't resentful. She just doesn't have romantic feelings. Man I don't want to lose her!
I am very interested to hear more about this Mort course. I get very mixed messages from my wife on needing space. She wants me to continue to be her partner, i.e. cook dinner and do the dished WITH her, other chores TOGETHER, and put the kids to bed. When she says that she wants space, she seems to suggest no romantic pursuit or manufacturing family events like outings and vacations.
She says that she is not mad at me and isn't resentful. She just doesn't have romantic feelings. Man I don't want to lose her!
Destroyd - if you google his name you can find his site, don't want to post a link to a competing program here. I'm only in the beginning of his course but I think there is some helpful stuff. A lot similar to DB but some is different. I think you have to critically think and apply what would work best for your sitch.
Speaking of your sitch, I've been following your thread and I really feel for you - I haven't commented because I have no good advice. I'm out here flailing just like you, looking for something to turn my marriage around. I know there is no magic action to make it happen. I'm just trying to use all available resources to put my best effort forward for one last chance.
Well Dadhurt, we will flail together. I am sitting in my work office crying right now with my window shades pulled down. I never thought life would hurt this bad. But, I am feeling better than I did 1 month ago, so I am feeling progress.
I am very interested to hear more about this Mort course. I get very mixed messages from my wife on needing space. She wants me to continue to be her partner, i.e. cook dinner and do the dished WITH her, other chores TOGETHER, and put the kids to bed. When she says that she wants space, she seems to suggest no romantic pursuit or manufacturing family events like outings and vacations.
She says that she is not mad at me and isn't resentful. She just doesn't have romantic feelings. Man I don't want to lose her!
Hell no!
That's the friendzone. Just go do your thing and give her space. Nothing wrong with maintaining the home but don't plan out doing chores together.
Destroyd, you have to get up and jump around, make yourself happy!!!!!! Do not sulk!
Well, update to my sitch. Last night I really screwed up.
W, D6 and I went to pool together, had a good day. Had some drinks at pool and back home, BBQ, etc. good family day. Ended up talking to an old friend on the phone who went through a divorce several years ago. He basically said “hate to tell you but if she is having an EA then she is done with you, you need to lawyer up, protect yourself and file and move on.”
I’ve been holding so much anger in due to the (texting) EA, I confronted my wife last night and let it all out. I really let her have it verbally. At first she denied it, then when I told her I had gone through her work phone she admitted it apologized. I yelled at her about the disrespect and betrayal. I told her we need to tell our daughter, she needs to move out and I’m going to file.
After sobering up this morning I realize how much I screwed up and let my anger take over after drinking. We talked more about the EA and she confirmed that she was just looking for attention, apologized and told me she would stop texting him. She now is considering moving from the state when previously she was going to stay for a year.
I feel terrible. Part of me is glad I confronted her on the EA but I did it in such an angry way, any small goodwill I built over the last couple of weeks is undone and then some.
I so regret this- please help!
You can’t undo what is already done but you can resolve to do better moving forward. A well-worded apology for yelling at her and drinking too much wouldn’t hurt either. Then pick yourself up and make today a really good Father’s Day with your daughter. And maybe stay away from drinking too much until you are feeling more grounded and less emotional. Nothing good comes from drinking too much when you are going through something like this. It just lowers your inhibitions and you really need those right now. (((HUGS)))
You can’t undo what is already done but you can resolve to do better moving forward. A well-worded apology for yelling at her and drinking too much wouldn’t hurt either. Then pick yourself up and make today a really good Father’s Day with your daughter. And maybe stay away from drinking too much until you are feeling more grounded and less emotional. Nothing good comes from drinking too much when you are going through something like this. It just lowers your inhibitions and you really need those right now. (((HUGS)))
You are absolutely right - no more drinking like that. I’m actually not much of a drinker anymore but I’m just trying to numb the pain and be able to act “natural” and friendly with the wife. Totally backfired. I did apologize this morning and renig on her moving out and me filing- not good DB but that’s not what I want.
I am so sorry you are going through this Dadhurt. It is hard not to lose your temper when your spouse betrays your trust. Don't beat yourself up too much. While you might not have helped your sitch, you were justified in losing your temper.
I am so sorry you are going through this Dadhurt. It is hard not to lose your temper when your spouse betrays your trust. Don't beat yourself up too much. While you might not have helped your sitch, you were justified in losing your temper.
Thanks destroyd. DBing is sooo hard with all the emotions you are supposed to act counter to. I need to be stronger if I’m going to have any chance.
Hang in there buddy. You and I will encourage each other through this!
This is such a difficult thing to go through, DadHurt.
I will share this with you. Last year I discovered my H in an emotional affair. He'd already pulled away from me, was very distant and hostile and withdrawn, and was extremely critical of me. My self esteem was in total tatters but I'd managed to convince myself that a) he was just pressured at work and b) if I worked on being a better wife, he'd want me more. He didn't confess to the EA, I discovered it by looking at his phone, and he denied the extent of it and gaslit me until I went into his email account and found more evidence. It was one of the most painful things I'd ever experienced. I get where you are.
I was living on anger and fear for months. Months. I dragged us to therapy but we made no progress because I was so hurt and furious and just wanted him to jump through hoops to comfort me. Whatever he did didn't comfort me, because deep down I knew he was just placating me and because we never dealt with the ways we were both responsible for our marriage getting to the place where he had so many unmet emotional needs that an EA became a viable option for him. BD didn't happen until a good few months after the EA was discovered, and I am sure it happened in part because of the way I was unable to handle my pain and anger.
You are allowed to be angry and hurt. Your feelings of betrayal are totally justified. It's what you do with them here on out that matters. Even if she were to offer complete remorse, you are still going to have to process those feelings - she can't do it for you. I've had to learn that the very hard way. You may decide, once you've processed your feelings, that there's nothing left to save. She may decide that while she's remorseful for her EA, she still needs to be out of the marriage that wasn't meeting her needs. There are no guarantees. But right now you need to concentrate on yourself. I really wish I'd done things differently in the aftermath of the EA - I did my best, but I didn't have the emotional resources to really look inwards and handle my own feelings in a healthy way.
I think the advice you've been given to stay away from drink for the time being is very wise.
Thanks for your thoughts Alison. We talked more about it last night. She said that it’s not what I think but she still admitted it was wrong. She said he’s just a client that is nice to her and makes her feel good when she hasn’t felt good about herself in a while. She claimed she has never cheated on me in our almost 20 years together. I believe her but there’s still the huge weight of hurt and betrayal that’s is so difficult to process.
We’re now back to up in air on remaining in the house together. The advice here has been to stay but think it’s going to be hard due to lack of trust on both sides - I violated her privacy and she had a pretty minor EA. Even though she says she is going to stop, I’m always going to be wondering when she’s on the couch or in her room if she’s texting him and she’s going to be wondering if I’m snooping. It’s going to be tough. She also says she is angry that I’m changing and bettering myself. She’s angry and hurt because she has tried to get me to change for years and I’m only now doing it when she is leaving- says I will now be a great partner for someone else but couldn’t do it for her. She is right, I feel terrible for how I’ve been in our marriage. I will be a better person and so wish it could be with her but she has given up.
We’re now back to up in air on remaining in the house together. The advice here has been to stay but think it’s going to be hard due to lack of trust on both sides - I violated her privacy and she had a pretty minor EA. Even though she says she is going to stop, I’m always going to be wondering when she’s on the couch or in her room if she’s texting him and she’s going to be wondering if I’m snooping. It’s going to be tough. She also says she is angry that I’m changing and bettering myself. She’s angry and hurt because she has tried to get me to change for years and I’m only now doing it when she is leaving- says I will now be a great partner for someone else but couldn’t do it for her. She is right, I feel terrible for how I’ve been in our marriage. I will be a better person and so wish it could be with her but she has given up.
I know exactly what you mean. If I'd had my time over again (hindsight is a wonderful thing) I'd have taken and allowed a LOT more space in the aftermath of the EA. I wish I'd have done DB in the aftermath in order to concentrate on healing myself. An injured, damaged, mistrustful and deeply hurt person is in no fit state to do the delicate and often painful work of repairing a marriage. For me, I was in no place to accept any responsibility for the hurt I'd caused my H, or I was so eager to have his love and attention again that I accepted too much responsibility. Both are unhealthy and more importantly, ineffective. It does you no good to leap into repairing a relationship while you're still understandably hurt and betrayed. And perhaps this applies to your wife too. However minor or otherwise the EA was, your feelings are your feelings (and I hate to say it, but you may not have the full truth - bits and pieces were still trickling out in my situation for months after my initial discovery) and that needs to be the most important.
If you feel you can do this healing and introspection while living with your wife, I think it is better to do that. I couldn't. If you can't, then perhaps a more physical separation is best. Are you in the UK? I went to a solicitor when my H left and my solictor told me that while he could argue he'd been primary carer in the past, and so would be the obvious choice for residency of the kids should we divorce, given that he'd left and over the months since he'd left the kids had been with me and I had been doing all the school runs, that it was clear I was their primary carer and he was unlikely to be granted residency of them should be want to apply for it. I think that's worth bearing in mind too.
If you feel you can do this healing and introspection while living with your wife, I think it is better to do that. I couldn't. If you can't, then perhaps a more physical separation is best. Are you in the UK? I went to a solicitor when my H left and my solictor told me that while he could argue he'd been primary carer in the past, and so would be the obvious choice for residency of the kids should we divorce, given that he'd left and over the months since he'd left the kids had been with me and I had been doing all the school runs, that it was clear I was their primary carer and he was unlikely to be granted residency of them should be want to apply for it. I think that's worth bearing in mind too.
That is the true question, Alison. I’m not sure I’m strong enough to do that while living with the wife. Obviously I want to R, she is not in a place to do that now and is probably a lot farther from any change of R after I unleashed all my hurt and anger on her Saturday night. We haven’t told our D6 yet and a separation will force that. I know there is a small part of her that wants our marriage to work but she is so far down the path of D by telling our friends and family about her choice and plans that I don’t see her turning back. I feel so guilty and so much regret for not being the husband I could have been but I do know some of this is her fault too. I could have fixed this years ago but I wasn’t ready. I’m ready now but have no control and it’s scary.
It really really is.
People wiser and more experienced than I am will have better advice for you - I can only give you my experience of being the person on the receiving end of an EA. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I'm not sure I was capable of doing what it took in those months. There's no shame in that. Perhaps we'd have a much better marriage now if I had have been able to. Perhaps we would have separated more decisively and more quickly, and I'd be much further along the path to recovery than I am now, if I had. I don't know. And regret is futile. The only right answer is to focus on yourself, and as far as you can remove yourself from behaviour that is unacceptable. If she's not out and out abusive to you, perhaps you can manage your feelings by having as much time and space away from her, and no R talks, and no booze (!) until things become clearer.
Well, update to my sitch. Last night I really screwed up.
W, D6 and I went to pool together, had a good day. Had some drinks at pool and back home, BBQ, etc. good family day. Ended up talking to an old friend on the phone who went through a divorce several years ago. He basically said “hate to tell you but if she is having an EA then she is done with you, you need to lawyer up, protect yourself and file and move on.”
I’ve been holding so much anger in due to the (texting) EA, I confronted my wife last night and let it all out. I really let her have it verbally. At first she denied it, then when I told her I had gone through her work phone she admitted it apologized. I yelled at her about the disrespect and betrayal. I told her we need to tell our daughter, she needs to move out and I’m going to file.
After sobering up this morning I realize how much I screwed up and let my anger take over after drinking. We talked more about the EA and she confirmed that she was just looking for attention, apologized and told me she would stop texting him. She now is considering moving from the state when previously she was going to stay for a year.
I feel terrible. Part of me is glad I confronted her on the EA but I did it in such an angry way, any small goodwill I built over the last couple of weeks is undone and then some.
I so regret this- please help!
Not the end of the world. Just move forward and show consistent actions.
Don't try to teach her everything you are learning, she's not ready and she doesn't want to hear it from you.
Not the end of the world. Just move forward and show consistent actions.
Don't try to teach her everything you are learning, she's not ready and she doesn't want to hear it from you.
Thanks. Not trying to teach her anything but she knows I’m serious about being a better man and is angry that it’s not for her. 2 steps forward 3 steps back.
The “cake eating” stuff is interesting though. All the stay in the house together and play family while she is determined to leave. She says it’s for the benefit of our daughter and I agree with that, but can’t help feel it’s a little bit of cake eating while she feels out how we are going to get along or how things with the minor EA (that supposedly is now over) plays out.
I struggle with the concept of cake-eating myself. It feels very transactional to me (I'll only be nice to you if you do what I want you to do!) and totally opposite to the way I think love and care work.
For me, I guess, a helpful definition of cake-eating is where you give someone something that you don't want to give them - when it's part of a secret manipulation tactic and isn't given freely.
If I do some wifely service for my husband (I don't know - like cooking and looking after him when he was sick) knowing full well he's an abusive so and so who doesn't respect me, I am feeding him cake. I am giving him the benefit of my care and attention when he offers little in return. But it isn't about him - it's about me. Because when I did that, it was clearly a pretty manipulative move on my part. I'm angry with him. I don't like him much at the moment, and instead of withdrawing and acting with honesty - making my actions congruent with my feelings and the facts of our relationship - I pretended to be a nice wife. I stuffed all that down and played nice in the hope that it would make him be nice to me. It's grim and unhealthy.
If she was determined to leave she would. She's legally, probably, entitled to be in the house. So perhaps you just work on making sure that your actions are congruent with your feelings, and anything kind you offer to her is offered freely, whether or not she is cheating, whether or not she wants to divorce you.
I no longer share any finances with my H and I don't financially enable or support him in any way. We did that while we were together because we were working towards a shared future. Now we aren't working towards a shared future, so my responsibility is to support my children and myself. That feels honest and realistic to me, though obviously to him it feels like punishment (he still wants me to pay some of his bills) his feelings about what I'm doing or not doing with my money aren't my concern.
If she was determined to leave she would. She's legally, probably, entitled to be in the house. So perhaps you just work on making sure that your actions are congruent with your feelings, and anything kind you offer to her is offered freely, whether or not she is cheating, whether or not she wants to divorce you.
Thanks Alison. That's different than I was defining it - I was thinking of cake eating as her dangling litte bits here and there to keep my hope alive while she evaluates the strength of her EA and keeps me as plan B. Seems to me that DB is not really keeping your actions congruent with feelings. I let my true feelings out on her Saturday night when I told her to get out and laid in to her about her betrayal and my distrust for her. This would be so much easier if we didn't have a D6, she wants to move out of state with her in a year.
Anyway, had a unusual (so far) interaction with wife this morning. I was in my room with door closed working on some job app stuff, she came in and asked me if anything was wrong. I said no, she said I had given her a dirty look. I said I didn't mean too, then she broke down in tears. She talked about how she was so sad about everything. I told her I was sad too. She said she wished we could have a do over and asked me if I thought she was having a MLC. I said I didn't know and did my best to validate the rest of her statements. This is the first time she has shown any hint of remorse for her actions. I know the mantra is believe nothing she says and only half of what she does, but still trying to make some sense of it.
I know she's no where near any kind of R and she will probably regret the things she said to me this morning, she frequently flip flops her thinking and desires. I also know I just need to keep DB'ing. Even if there was an attempt to R, the fact that there was and EA (or worse, who knows) will make it much harder for me. Appreciate any advice from anyone who has been through this.
Well, I am not very good at DBing... And I do think there's a lot of benefit in the 'fake it until you make it' type of attitude. And I think even if you feel like shouting at someone and calling them names (not suggesting this is what you did...) then it is better to talk to them calmly, even if you don't feel calm.
I guess the congruent thing to do with anger is to say 'I can't interact with you respectfully right now so I am going out,' or something like that?
I also think that sometimes we LBS seem to attribute a lot more planning and control to the WS than they actually have. It's probably not accurate, and it also keeps us as victims. My H has treated me appallingly and I have allowed it, for reasons of my own (and that's on me) - but I really don't think he ever planned to 'throw some crumbs and keep her as plan B until I decide what I want' - I just think he's confused and flailing and doesn't have the self control or emotional intelligence or relationship skills to take responsibility, say what he wants and move towards it. None of that makes his behaviour acceptable, of course - but if the cake-eating has happened in my situation, it's because I've been feeding him, not because he's been engineering the situation. The worst thing is - I'm not even really a LBS, I kicked him out!
So I don't feed him things I don't want to give him. Right now that means I am basically civil when I open the door to him, but nothing else.
It sounds like your wife is really sad about the situation. It is sad. She'll no doubt be in pain and confusion. So are you. I think you don't have a responsibility to comfort her or shield her from the consequences of her decisions and where you are both at now. She feels insecure about your affections and seems to want reassurance, and that's because you are very uncertain.
Another way of looking at cake-eating that has been helpful to me is that cake-eating denies the facts of the situation. The facts of my situation are that I don't like how my H treats me and it isn't acceptable. I won't accept it. I don't enjoy his company and I don't believe him when he says he wants to work on things. Those things are true, and I try to keep my actions consistent with those facts.
You’re probably right Alison. She doesn’t have some master plan that she’s executing and is just flailing around like me. What makes it so hard is the loss of control. Not that I was ever a controlling husband but once they give you the BD you are basically done. I know the answer is to let go and work on yourself but that is sooo much easier said than done, especially in the midst of in house separation. I’m also so torn between detaching and doing 180’s. I was already pretty detached in our R which was a lot of the problem. Remaining detached is more of the same. Communicating concern and interest in her with stuff like “have a good day”, “how was your day, how was work, etc.” would be 180’s and is exactly what the OM is doing but I don’t feel that is detaching.
DH,
What does detaching mean to you?
DH,
What does detaching mean to you?
To me it means not reacting emotionally to her words and actions, even on the inside. Not trying to interpret her words/actions and determine what she really means. Letting her go.
So hard to do when we interact every day but I do want to stay together in house for the benefit of our daughter.
Here's an update to my sitch - quite a bit has happened since my last post.
After I confronted wife about her EA a couple of weeks ago I sensed a change in her. Contrary to DB techniques and advice, I laid it all out in a R talk several days later. I asked for 1 year of effort to be "all in" for our marriage. She said she had to think about it. Almost a week went by without an answer but her actions were telling me that she wanted to move forward with an attempt at R - spending time together on the weekends and planning a family trip together for the 4th. Finally she told me last week that she "thinks she wants to work on the marriage" but she is scared. She thinks we need to both continue to work on ourselves in IC and then eventually MC, I agree. Right now we have agreed to "date" and try to rebuild trust and connection, I know this is going to be hard.
On Saturday we got a babysitter and went out together for the evening. We had a great time until the end - we started talking about the R and our friends opinions, etc. One of the things I'm going to have to get past is the hurt of her EA - previously I was very "emotionally unavailable" so I thought it would be a good idea to open up about how I'm currently feeling about it. I told her I can't be "all in" if she is continuing to text the OM, she said that he has texted her once since our R talk and she did not respond. I started to press for more details on the EA, she didn't want to give them and I said I need to know more in order to move past it. She said it was too soon to be discussing this, I disagreed and everything spiraled down from there - a great night ended in a fight.
We discussed it the next morning as I apologized for continuing to press after she said no, she reiterated that she's not texting with him anymore and I agreed to not bring it up again until we are both in a place where we can agree to discuss it. Hopefully not too much damage was done.
So I don't think I'm quite at the piecing stage but certainly not DBing anymore either. I'm looking for advice from others that have been at this stage on how to move forward, maybe Steve85? I'm very thankful that there seems to be a chance for our marriage but things are so fragile that I want to make sure I do everything right to give us the best chance of R.
Appreciate any advice others can give who have been through this.
Your trying to control her. You're treating her like a child. If you read my threads you'll see I struggled with this too.
Here's the thing, what you said to her above IS NOT TRUE. Stop with the controlling, that's what pushed get into the EA to begin with. So what if she's still in contact with him? Your goal is to be the better option, not control who she's texting with.
And what the heck good is knowing the details of the EA going to do? How is that possibly going to help you get past it?!?
Here's the deal. She's says she wants to work on it. Better yet her actions are showing that. 180 on the controlling behavior and let the EA go. Work on you so that MR 2.0 will have a fair chance with a new Dadhurt. If you do that, there is a good chance the texting of OM will die a slow death. The problem we sometimes fall into as LBHs is trying to find solely on things out of our control. She could stop texting OM today, and start a new EA tomorrow with another OM! What you can control is becoming AMOAFWL! That's how you end EA#1 and prevent future EAs.
And being a whiny wuss about EA#1 ain't being AMOAFWL!
My advice, keep up the dating, stop discussing the EA, keep doing IC to work on you, and stop trying to control your W before you control her right out of the MR!
So I don't think I'm quite at the piecing stage but certainly not DBing anymore either.
You are always in the DB stage brother. It is about improving yourself. If you have reached the top of the mountain, let us know how the view is.
That is good news for you that you are able to take a couple steps forward. I agree with steve, knowing details doesn't help move forward. Trusting again is a difficult thing, I am 100% certain if I get to where you are at I will struggle to trust her again. There is a difference in my mind between 'open and honest' vs controlling though. You telling her what she needs to tell you is controlling. Perhaps you could ask her to create a plan that demonstrates her dedication to restoring your trust? That way it is her plan, she puts effort towards restoring the M, and it makes it her plan vice yours. Just a thought I had.
Thanks guys, what you’re saying makes sense. Wife and I talked about how we need to be open with our feelings and not hold stuff in (which I’ve done in the past) so I’m obviously still thinking about the EA and wanted to be honest with that but can see how that is controlling. I’ll focus more on becoming AMOAFWL.
Finally she told me last week that she "thinks she wants to work on the marriage" but she is scared. She thinks we need to both continue to work on ourselves in IC and then eventually MC, I agree. Right now we have agreed to "date" and try to rebuild trust and connection, I know this is going to be hard.
Apparently harder than you thought because you already screwed up in a big way. You have got to listen to her! What did she say? She is SCARED. You need to respect that. How do you? Well certainly not by pressuring and arguing which is exactly what you did. LISTEN and VALIDATE. That is ALL. Like Steve said, you're treating her like a child and if you continue that then she will run away again, maybe for good. You have got to be hyper sensitive to avoiding conflict with her right now because it will look like "more of the same" behavior when she is looking for CHANGED behavior.
One of the things I'm going to have to get past is the hurt of her EA - previously I was very "emotionally unavailable" so I thought it would be a good idea to open up about how I'm currently feeling about it.
What??? NO NO NOOOOO this is not the time to start "opening up" about anything! Picture yourself walking on a very thin sheet of ice, you have to tiptoe and carefully shift your weight to keep from falling through. LISTEN and VALIDATE. Quit trying to dump all your feelings on her, she is still raw and "scared" and she has to get past that first. You can help her by.... yes you guessed it, listening and validating. If you don't know exactly, and I mean EXACTLY what I'm talking about then start reading up on it.
I said I need to know more in order to move past it.
All you need to know is that it stopped. You already know why she did it, because you were checked out. So check back in.
We discussed it the next morning as I apologized for continuing to press after she said no
Good, now let it go!
So I don't think I'm quite at the piecing stage but certainly not DBing anymore either.
LB is right. You need to DB now more than ever. Listen and validate, turn off your NMMNG tendencies, continue to get out and GAL and let her as well.
Wife and I talked about how we need to be open with our feelings and not hold stuff in (which I’ve done in the past)
Let her open up to you. Ask her about her feelings, if she's sad/ confused/ scared/ worried then talk to her. Listen to her. Understand her. Nod, say things like "that sounds very difficult, is there anything I can do to help?" But don't try to fix her, just be there for her. Be the rock that she can lean on for support. If you can successfully listen and validate, then her perception is that you are more sensitive and open even though you're not sharing YOUR feelings much if at all. Think of yourself like her counselor, you listen, acknowledge, empathize. Counselors do not share their own feelings, they are completely focused on their patient's feelings. That's where you need to start. If you go blurting out how you feel about everything then she is just going to think "same old DH, just wants all the focus on himself and never listens to me."