Hi folks,
Wife separated from me about a month ago, and our situation has been very fluid since then as we try to work out details and logistics. We’re splitting time in a separate small house while our kids (S16, D14, S8) stay at the main family home. We’re all going to have to move soon because our family house is being taken back by the landlord as of July 1st, so everything is going to change pretty drastically in the next month.
I’m really struggling with how much distance/closeness to put between me and my wife. She wants this separation, and she says clearly that she intends it to be effectively the end of our marriage, not a time to work on our relationship. She wants to be free to work on herself, date, explore her independence, feel autonomous, etc., so some signs of a MLC. She says I should accept that we are no longer a couple. She is not willing to establish ground rules for our behavior because she doesn’t feel she can trust me to keep up my end of the bargain. To put it another way, she basically doesn’t want to worry about my behavior since she feels she’s been doing that for most of our 20 year marriage. Admittedly, I have over the years disregarded her complaints and felt she was controlling, but my greatest crime was not feeling empathy for her when she was most in need because I dismissed her needs as paranoia and hysteria. I also made out (kissing only) with two different colleagues out drunk after some parties 4 years ago when we were living apart due to my job, and I felt the marriage was effectively over at the time. Soon after, I moved home, and told my wife that it was all a big mistake and that I moved home for her and my family. I have plenty of guilt and culpability for my mistakes in the marriage, but at no time was I dating or pursuing other women on an intimate level or seeking a relationship as she now apparently needs the right to do.
We have been fairly cooperative and collaborative for the most part. We’ve also recently had some great, honest talks, more sex than we had in the previous few years, and some fun times, all while planning our separation. However, we have also had many lengthy conversations about our relationship, and that is draining for both of us. She recently said she needs more distance from me to avoid that.
When she asserts her need for independence, especially around dating, I react badly since that just strikes a nerve with me. She also has an old male friend she’s been close to since they were very young children now back in her life. She had sexual encounters with this guy when they were in high school and then once more recently about 6 months ago after she had decided to separate from me, but she insists that was just a one-time, drunken mistake and that they are just friends and more like siblings than anything else. She also insists that she in no way would want a romantic relationship with him, and she gets very frustrated and annoyed when I push her on this. She now refuses to discuss their relationship with me because “its none of my business” now that we are separated. She is very clear that she will not share with me whom she is with or what she is doing, and she expects the same from me. To be honest, I do believe her about her “friend” not being a romantic interest, but I also know there will be moments where they could get physical if they’re both drinking, etc. I have been checking phone bills for calls/texts between them, and there is about one 50-60 minute call each week and 1-2 texts. I’m not proud of checking, but I can’t seem to stop it. I am wondering if all of this makes her a WW? I sort of feel like she exhibits more the characteristics of a WAW.
This is terribly difficult. She tells me that she wants us to be friends, have family dinners, do things together with our kids, even go out together from time to time alone and with our mutual friends, but she says she needs me to understand her need for space, independence and respect for her boundaries. She feels she was mistreated throughout our marriage but didn’t stand up for herself or leave the marriage, so her self-esteem is wrecked. She wants space and autonomy and to feel she is not putting up with a life she disagrees with from now on, and she says the best way for her to see a future for us is for me to give her this time and space, respect her needs and be helpful and supportive of the separation. I get that in one sense, but I also have a very hard time being supportive of something I don’t want.
Obviously, I want her to be happy and feel empowered, but there is a limit to what I can take in order for her to achieve that, and I have real concerns about elements of the separation (e.g., dating, finances, kids logistics, etc.) as she is describing it. When I raise these, she becomes angry and claims that I am not understanding of her needs and am only being an obstacle. I agree that I have had a hard time accepting the separation, so especially at first, I tried to point out how destructive the separation would be to us financially, to our kids, etc. That was really an attempt to stop it, but she said that if I would stop trying to manipulate her and do the opposite and make this easy on her, that would show I really care about her needs and would be the best thing I could do for us to ever have a future again.
Also, when I create distance/detachment between us, she does seem to respond a bit, but this is not easy to do because of all the stuff related to our kids, our housing, our finances, etc. We are by necessity in fairly constant contact, and we both enjoy our time together when we’re being friendly. As mentioned above, in some ways the separation has led to more honesty and openness than we’ve had in years. I am having a very hard time being distant from her. Also, when I push back on her, e.g., by telling her we can’t be “just friends”, or I won’t be available for favors, she then becomes agitated and more steadfast that she is making the right decision and usually suggests that we should not merely separate but rather just get a full divorce and go our separate ways. On the other hand, when I am cooperative, friendly, helpful to the separation rather than throwing up obstacles to it, she responds better. She seeks more closeness, wants us to do some things together, etc.
I am also trying very hard to GAL, but this too is difficult since most people my age (49) are busy with their own families and kids. I find things to do, but I hate doing them all alone. I am also reluctant to date because it sounds awful, I don’t want that, and despite what my wife says, I know it would make her uncomfortable, and she would likely rush to start dating herself, which would only compound my predicament. I should point out that while she wants the freedom to date and see her old friend, she is very clear that she is not at all interested in pursuing any relationship, nor is she even interested in dating right now. She wants the time and space to work on herself, be healthy, get in shape, lose weight, feel good about herself again, etc.
All of this is very confusing, basically because I don’t know what my strategy should be, aside from trying to get more of a life myself. I don’t know how much I should engage with her, or if I should push her away, tell her I’m not going to be just a friend, etc. because I don’t want her cake eating or to be Plan B. I know she’s having some confusion and conflicting feelings about the separation itself, but when she starts to feel that way, she seems to catch herself and then works hard to convince herself that she needs to separate from me, and she digs in her heels.
The past two months since she announced she wanted us to separate have been the toughest time I’ve ever experienced in my life. I have read DR and do my best to implement Sandi’s Rules, but I’m extremely distracted, can’t sleep, eat or work very well, and even have trouble focusing on my kids. I just can’t seem to detach enough from all the thoughts and feelings – even when I’m feeling OK – to truly get a break. I want so much to be busy, but I hate doing things alone and don’t have many people in my life to do things with. It is very lonely and frustrating, but I do try my best to convey an outward positivity in front of my wife when I can.
Sorry for the rambling. I’m a bit all over the place because this situation is very fluid and just isn’t very clear-cut or simple to me. Lots of mixed signals and uncertainty, which is causing me to be scattered in my thinking and approach. Any guidance or advice to help me get more grounded? I’m thinking some DB coaching sessions could help me.
Thanks for any help or guidance!
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
So sorry you are here. Read everything that Cadet posted. My EXWW started off just like yours did. She started saying she needed space, she never felt independent, never got to grow up by herself, we married to young, needed to work on herself.
It turned out my EXWW was sleeping with her boss. In reading your situation it really looks to me like there may be another man in your W's life. I am sorry to say that. Regardless, you are here for help.
Follow all of the advice you get here. Go buy the DB book and keep it to yourself. This is going to be a very long and hurtful road. But you need to accept that you have this gift of time to work on yourself.
Its time for you to focus on what makes you happy. Focus on you and the kids. Pull back and remove all pressure from your W. You will not talk her into reconsidering. She is already gone. Every decision you make needs to be something that either betters you or makes you happy.
Stop making decisions based on how your W will react. Start getting very involved with your kids. Its time to show them you are a rock in their lives. Just remember, you will be fine. You will end up a much stronger person no matter what. There are so many helpful folks on this board. Make sure to read and consider everyones advice.
People will give you advice based on what worked and what did not work. Even though we are all different people, these behaviors your W is showing are literally like a script taken from a book. WAS all act the same. They all say the same thing. They all blame their spouse for everything. They all get very selfish and in many cases they turn on their spouse and treat them like the enemy.
My EXWW turned me into enemy number 1 when I confirmed her affair. I pulled back hard. Focused on myself. Physically, mentally and emotionally. I am a much different person now. My EXWW is the same and has only regressed. I did not save my MR. But I saved myself. I saved my sanity. I learned to recognize my value and worth and recognize that I am not valued based on someone elses opinion of me or love for me.
You got this. You will be ok. It hurts so allow yourself to feel and express your emotions, but do it away from your W. In front of her you are alpha male, cool, calm and collected. Decisive in your actions. Keep posting here.
Stop all talks about relationships and stop all pursuit. You will push her away quickly by pursuing her.
Jay,
I'm new too, so I'm not an expert by any mean..... but give that woman space, as much as possible.
It's super difficult but it has to be done.
My MLC'er and I live together too, and it's really hard with roles (cooking, cleaning, how much to say to one another).
I'm sure you're doing your best, but really..... let her do her own thing and butt out of it. Be nice and supportive, don't cause conflict.
If she's having (or will have) an A, I suggest reading everything on Heart Blessing's site. 100% changed the way I look at all this, and the people here a super good.
I'm at the pre-sep or pre-D stage (won't know until she drops the bomb) so your're ahead of me in that respect.
Read Hearts Blessing's stuff and use the DB stuff. I think in combo that's the best thing. If you're going to stand, you're going to have to endure. Time to toughen up (easier said than done, I'm sure your mind and emotions are racing).
I'll keep an eye out for your posts and stick with ya. You need a friend (and I do too).
-SoloFlex
JayR, first sorry you are here. yes this stuff is very difficult. We can help.
Couple of early observations. First, read up on WW (wayward wives). sandi has written extensively on this subject. Your wife is WW. She sounds a lot like mine was. Wanting the party, dating lifestyle, but still coming around to play "family". sandi's writings are awesome for learning how to deal with WWs.
I will give you a little preview. It is all about respect. Everything stems from that. So start acting in way that demand respect. And splitting time with her in the marital home ain't it. Move back in full time. Tell her she is free to stay where ever she wants. She will yell, scream, complain, cry, plead and beg. Stand your ground. Listen and validate (see the validation thread). She will hate you. But she WILL respect you.
Also, I am seeing a lot of excuses. DBing is tough enough when you are all in. But when you start making excuses for yourself, it become impossible. "I can't detach because......." JUST DETACH. Detachment is about being emotionally consistent. I see you talking about reacting to her talking about dating. Stop that. Even if she comes to you and says she was in gangbang with 100 guys, it should roll off your back like water off a duck. Same with GAL. Drop the excuses. Just go out and do it. If your friends are busy, MAKE new ones.
" I don’t know how much I should engage with her,"
Easy, don't engage with her. When she engages with you, listen and validate. You should be avoiding all now logistical discussions with her like the plague.
JayR, do this one favor for yourself. When you feel the urge to "talk" to her, come here. If she engages with you with R talks remember this line: "Sorry, I have a lot to think through. I will need some time to consider all of it." Then disengage. When you are in doubt about what to do or how proceed, come here and ask. We are there to help. We've been through it.
JayR, do this one favor for yourself. When you feel the urge to "talk" to her, come here. If she engages with you with R talks remember this line: "Sorry, I have a lot to think through. I will need some time to consider all of it." Then disengage. When you are in doubt about what to do or how proceed, come here and ask. We are there to help. We've been through it.
Agree.
Most LBH want to "fix" this by talking. Talking never helps during this phase. Listening and validating with your full attention and full eye contact.
W:"H, we need to talk"
H:"I am listening"
W"Bla bla bla"
H:"I understand you feel that way"
W"Bla bla bla"
H:"I am sorry you feel that way"
W"Bla bla bla"
H:"It must be hard to feel that way"
W"Bla bla bla"
"I will need some time to consider all of it."
W"Bla bla bla"
H:"I need to continue with what I was doing. goodby"
W"Bla bla bla!!!"
Thank you all very much. Very good advice. I can't tell you how much your help means to me. It is so, so nice to not feel completely alone in this. Some more info below, so please let me know your additional thoughts. Thanks!
SoTorn -
I'm still not convinced there is a OM at the moment, but I take your points about focusing on myself and my kids and stop making decisions based on my wife's reactions. I really like this: every decision you make needs to be something that either betters you or makes you happy.
Fortunately, my wife hasn't turned me in to enemy No. 1, at least not yet. She blames me for her "having" to leave and is way overly negative about our 20 years together, but she has been largely kind and trying to work with me on everything from kids to finances to housing, as long as she doesn't feel I'm trying to manipulate her or punish her. At the same time, she really wants me to accept that our marriage is over, and she has offered to get a D if I want that in order to eliminate any confusion. I obviously don't want that, and it would be pretty disastrous for me financially (she hasn't worked most of our marriage, so on my lawyer's advice, I'm way better off avoiding D). Instead, I'm trying to show her that I am moving on and will be happy doing so.
SoloFlex and Steve85 -
I should clarify something. My wife is definitely not out partying or dating or trying to reclaim her youth in those ways. She spends most of her time with the kids, at work, and alone reading or talking to her best friend (female) and trying to get her life in order. She is very depressed and full of anxiety, I think based on guilt over this decision, so she has put on some weight, drinks too much, hasn't been exercising and feels pretty miserable. She just yesterday said she desperately needs to go on a retreat alone for a week to meditate, eat well, stop drinking, and get healthy. She is also severely hormonal due to a condition called PMDD, and she is peri-menopausal but can't take estrogen due to increased cancer risk. All of this she recognizes is making her unable to function very well. Doesn't change my approach because she still says she needs to be fully free to regain her self-esteem, but I think it's relevant.
In any event, I am avoiding all talks about our R and not pursuing her. I'm trying to stay busy and generally avoid her altogether. When she calls, I usually don't pick up, and when she presses to talk about something related to the kids, I keep the conversation brief, friendly and put on my best positive face/voice. She definitely notices how great I sound and has said so more than once.
Steve85 -
I definitely hear you about making excuses. I've been dong just that with GAL and detachment as you called out. I am working hard on both, and I have better days and worse days, but I will keep at it.
Avoiding all logistical discussions is not really possible because we have three kids with busy daily schedules and summer plans that need to be made, ongoing financial decisions that we both need to be involved in, and we need to move out of our main house in a month. We are looking for another large house for the kids, and I will insist that I live there, but that will be a source of conflict because she will want to live there too. Her idea is for her and me to split a small second home where she will go 3 nights a week, and I will go the other 3 nights, and we will stay with the kids together (in separate bedrooms) the 1 additional night, so we can have family time. We live in the most expensive part of the country for housing, so we cannot afford two full size houses. If we can't agree on this plan, she says she will get a loan from her brother to get her and the kids a large enough house that I would then not need to pay for, and I can live wherever I want, and we can send the kids back and forth, which neither of us wants for them. It will be extremely costly for me to get a large enough house on my own while she does the same. The loan from her brother would just add to our overall financial burden long term so is only a short term solution.
Despite the practical details mentioned above, I will do everything not to engage about our R and to just validate and not respond. Your line about needing to think through things and consider it all is brilliant!
Ready -
Thanks for the validation tips. I've read the cheat sheet and already started using it with much better results than engaging in the conversation.
There may not be an OM. However, prepare yourself for the possibility. I never in a million years thought my EXWW would cheat on me. But her behavior was exactly as yours is now. I wasn't the enemy until I confirmed her PA.
But before then, it was all my fault. They rewrite history. They catastrophize everything. "You never helped with the kids" "You never let me do this" "you never paid the bills" "you never washed the dishes" "I always coordinated birthdays" "you never gave me attention" "you never listened to me" "you never INSERT TWISTING OF HISTORY HERE". My EXWW was still cordial and working with me on parenting, paying the bills etc. It was like our MR was fine, as long as I wasn't romantically involved with her. AKA I was plan B.
That is how they justify themselves. Also, an affair doesnt just need to be physical. They could be texting or talking on the phone or computer to someone and having an emotional affair. Just keep an eye out for the possibility. Usually a WAS wants out fast because they have someone else. They also surround themselves with like minded people. Other WAS and women that are D and or poly.
Someone posts here often with a saying that describes the WAS. "A monkey never jumps from a branch until there is another branch available".
Thank you all very much. Very good advice. I can't tell you how much your help means to me. It is so, so nice to not feel completely alone in this. Some more info below, so please let me know your additional thoughts. Thanks!
SoTorn -
I'm still not convinced there is a OM at the moment, but I take your points about focusing on myself and my kids and stop making decisions based on my wife's reactions. I really like this: every decision you make needs to be something that either betters you or makes you happy.
Fortunately, my wife hasn't turned me in to enemy No. 1, at least not yet. She blames me for her "having" to leave and is way overly negative about our 20 years together, but she has been largely kind and trying to work with me on everything from kids to finances to housing, as long as she doesn't feel I'm trying to manipulate her or punish her. At the same time, she really wants me to accept that our marriage is over, and she has offered to get a D if I want that in order to eliminate any confusion. I obviously don't want that, and it would be pretty disastrous for me financially (she hasn't worked most of our marriage, so on my lawyer's advice, I'm way better off avoiding D). Instead, I'm trying to show her that I am moving on and will be happy doing so.
SoloFlex and Steve85 -
I should clarify something. My wife is definitely not out partying or dating or trying to reclaim her youth in those ways. She spends most of her time with the kids, at work, and alone reading or talking to her best friend (female) and trying to get her life in order. She is very depressed and full of anxiety, I think based on guilt over this decision, so she has put on some weight, drinks too much, hasn't been exercising and feels pretty miserable. She just yesterday said she desperately needs to go on a retreat alone for a week to meditate, eat well, stop drinking, and get healthy. She is also severely hormonal due to a condition called PMDD, and she is peri-menopausal but can't take estrogen due to increased cancer risk. All of this she recognizes is making her unable to function very well. Doesn't change my approach because she still says she needs to be fully free to regain her self-esteem, but I think it's relevant.
In any event, I am avoiding all talks about our R and not pursuing her. I'm trying to stay busy and generally avoid her altogether. When she calls, I usually don't pick up, and when she presses to talk about something related to the kids, I keep the conversation brief, friendly and put on my best positive face/voice. She definitely notices how great I sound and has said so more than once.
Steve85 -
I definitely hear you about making excuses. I've been dong just that with GAL and detachment as you called out. I am working hard on both, and I have better days and worse days, but I will keep at it.
Avoiding all logistical discussions is not really possible because we have three kids with busy daily schedules and summer plans that need to be made, ongoing financial decisions that we both need to be involved in, and we need to move out of our main house in a month. We are looking for another large house for the kids, and I will insist that I live there, but that will be a source of conflict because she will want to live there too. Her idea is for her and me to split a small second home where she will go 3 nights a week, and I will go the other 3 nights, and we will stay with the kids together (in separate bedrooms) the 1 additional night, so we can have family time. We live in the most expensive part of the country for housing, so we cannot afford two full size houses. If we can't agree on this plan, she says she will get a loan from her brother to get her and the kids a large enough house that I would then not need to pay for, and I can live wherever I want, and we can send the kids back and forth, which neither of us wants for them. It will be extremely costly for me to get a large enough house on my own while she does the same. The loan from her brother would just add to our overall financial burden long term so is only a short term solution.
Despite the practical details mentioned above, I will do everything not to engage about our R and to just validate and not respond. Your line about needing to think through things and consider it all is brilliant!
Ready -
Thanks for the validation tips. I've read the cheat sheet and already started using it with much better results than engaging in the conversation.
Sorry, my part had s typo and should have read you should be avoiding all but logistical discussions. Keep it business like and on point.
How right you are SoTorn. My wife and I met yesterday to discuss kids’ summer plans, which went well. I maintained a PMA, was presenting a positive, confident air. In fact, at one point, she asked if I thought we could stop the separation now and revisit it when our daughter goes to college (3 years from now). I asked if she really wanted my answer, and she said she did. So I told her that I thought that would be a very good idea on several levels, but I wouldn’t want to do that if she felt she was only doing it due to the practical difficulties with the separation, or if she would feel she’d given up on her needs so would fall further into despair or weak self-esteem. She said she would worry that I wouldn’t respect her or care about her needs (ongoing themes in her criticism of me). I offered to attend weekly MC with her to be sure we stay on top of those concerns week by week. We didn’t make any decisions, but I took it as an encouraging sign, although I tried to keep it in perspective and assume the pendulum would shift in the other direction soon.
We went to dinner, had a few drinks, and she started reasserting her usual complaints about me and our marriage. I tried to change the subject and avoid discussion about our MR, but that was difficult. Eventually, she became a bit agitated, mainly because I wasn’t really engaging, and she said she needed to leave because she wanted to stop drinking and was going to meet a girlfriend with her personal trainer at 6:30am and wanted to feel well rested. She went to the small, temporary house, and I went home to take care of the kids. She also mentioned how bad she felt for our youngest because he’s been asking for her to come home.
About 30 minutes later, I was trying to tuck him into bed when he asked if we could call him mom to say goodnight. I tried calling and texting multiple times but received no response, which was very odd since she knew our son was nervous about her being away. Once I got him down, I left to go see if she was at the other house. My teenagers were home to watch the little one.
When I got to the other house, I saw the window shades were open and my wife was talking to someone. I glanced inside and saw the male “childhood friend” she’s been back in touch with since asking to separate. I couldn’t stop myself, so I walked in and confronted them. He was very friendly, but I told him I knew he’d slept with my wife. He looked completely perplexed and said he didn’t know what I was talking about. My wife also said that she’s told me previously they didn’t have sex. He admitted they got really drunk one night, and kissed a bit but said it was a total mistake, he doesn’t see my wife in that way, and he apologized. He also said he’s been encouraging her to work on her marriage and preserve her family. My wife was very uneasy and kept saying he’s not attracted to her like that (not that she’s not attracted to him), and they’re like siblings. So, I raised the 15-20 emails I’d read from my wife expressing her deep live for him and her thrill after they had sex. He was completely flummoxed! He was very adamant they had no such relationship and confronted her about this weird fantasy she’s been having. She told us both to leave, and he clearly wanted to, so we went outside, and he came over to me again say he has no idea what she’s been saying or feeling, but that they’ve never been intimate and he very much doesn’t feel that way about her. He was very sincere, and this corresponds with what I’ve determined myself.
Apparently, unlike an EA or a PA, my wife has been experiencing a total fantasy A. She wants this guy to want her and have feelings for her, but he doesn’t, which is also what my wife’s best friend told me. He looked shocked and said she seemed crazy. Later after I got home, I sent him a few of her emails where she described them having sex in detail and her deep love for him. He read them and responded that he thinks she needs serious mental help. He couldn’t believe her emails. I said I didn’t want to embarrass her, but I’m worried about her, and I wanted him to know how she views their relationship. He was completely floored. He said he’s completely out of life and wants nothing to do with her madness anymore. I know they talked to about 90 minutes after he read the emails, and then today he texted me to say he feels he’s been a huge distraction to her trying to figure out her life (unknowingly), and he’s told her to have no further contact with him. He’s blocked her from his phone and doesn’t want to be involved anymore in her marital issues. I do believe him. He’s also offered to meet with me at anytime to tell me anything I want to know about their relationship and really hopes we can work things out and stay together.
The problem I have (well, at least one of them) is that when all hell broke loose last night, and she kicked us both out and demanded we leave, she soon came rushing out of the door and went to him as he was getting into his car. She pleaded with him not to throw away 40 years of friendship. I walked up and said I noted how she’d run to him and his car instead of to her f*@%king husband, and the other guy agreed with me and told her so. I texted her soon after that that moment told me all I needed to know about where her heart truly is.
Fast forward to early this morning, and sure enough, I received a couple texts saying she hates me (and the other guy), and neither of us deserve her. She’s absolutely full of hate for me right now because I’ve effectively exposed her fantasy to the object of her affection, and he wants nothing to do with her. It really freaked him out. She’s bitter that I’ve now ruined her “Plan A” even though that was never, ever realistic.
I felt better finally knowing the truth about their relationship, and I’m relieved I’ve ensured the OM gets the hell away from our MR, but I’m pretty sure I’ve sealed my fate as her enemy No. 1. Frankly, I’d rather be that and have my self respect than be Plan B snooping on her phone bills, etc. Today, I’ve been following the rules for WW to a tee, avoiding all contact, not engaging in conversation, etc., but she’s doing the same in her anger.
Quite a soap opera with plenty of whiplash from the ups and downs yesterday. Sorry for the long posts, but this is such a complicated situation and remains very fluid.
Appreciate any guidance on where I go from here. Thanks again!
So many mistakes. On top of mistakes.
Believe nothing she says. That includes gentleman (used very loosely) caller. I imagine if I was nailing some dudes wife that I'd coordinate my story with her in case ever confronted.
JayR, have you read DR? Have you done all the reading cadet linked in his initial response?
Let's assume you have. How would you grade yourself in DBing?
One of things we always say is that if you catch a cheater they will rarely stop cheating, but just take their cheating even deeper underground.
I'd believe him as far as I could throw him. You believe him because you want to believe him.
Personally, I don't think you "sealed your fate".... it's too early for that. Sure she'll be mad for a long time, but time is what you have.
One of the hardest realizations I had (and didn't want to face) is the sheer amount of time this is going to take. It seems like ours sitch's started about the same time, so we're in the same boat.
Absolutely no less than a year, and most likely 2-5 years and then cleanup. That's a long ways to go. She's out of her mind.... let her soak in it.
There's another bitter pill... in your earlier post you couldn't see how she could have an OM...... I'm sure this was eye opening to you. My eyes have been opened as well.
Buckle up. It's going to be quite a ride.
-SoloFlex
One of things we always say is that if you catch a cheater they will rarely stop cheating, but just take their cheating even deeper underground.
I'd believe him as far as I could throw him. You believe him because you want to believe him.
100%..... you have to let it run it's course, or it will be worse.
Never confront. Ignore.
If it comes into the house you're living in (not the guest house) then it's boundary time, and if it's broken..... leave or make her leave (her leave is better).
-SoloFlex
My wife is definitely not out partying or dating or trying to reclaim her youth in those ways.
Just b/c she is not out partying or dating, doesn't mean she's not wayward. Your W
is wayward. Imaginary affairs, whether with a real life person or a fictional character, are serious. And yes, you are her number one enemy. You just haven't realized it, b/c when she's eating cake, she's a happy camper.......and you mistake it for having enjoying one another or her kindness. About 12 years ago, I was a wayward W. If you had known me, you would have thought I was the last person on earth who would be wayward, but that's b/c you may not be familiar with that type of mindset and how a woman gets to that place. If you want to read more about the WW mindset, you can read the first thread under Cadet's homework. Look for Help for LBH's who have a WW.
The problem I have (well, at least one of them) is that when all hell broke loose last night, and she kicked us both out and demanded we leave, she soon came rushing out of the door and went to him as he was getting into his car. She pleaded with him not to throw away 40 years of friendship. I walked up and said I noted how she’d run to him and his car instead of to her f*@%king husband, and the other guy agreed with me and told her so. I texted her soon after that that moment told me all I needed to know about where her heart truly is.
Shocking, isn't it? She's not the girl you married. She has changed, and she'll probably change even more. Those 20 yrs you said she spoke negatively about? That was 20 yrs of resentment, which led to her feeling disrespect for you as a man, and especially as her H. As a woman, she was designed where her loving feelings for her H is measured by her level of respect for him. She feels depressed and is seeking greener pastures b/c she feels you completely let her down and caused all her unhappiness. She wants to experience the single life, date & sleep with other men (or OM). She will show loyalty, concern, desire, etc. to this other guy......or some new guy, before the man she's been married to for 20 yrs. Her mindset is all about her and what benefits HER the most. She's selfish and her heart can be as cold as an ice burg. She has, and will, deceive you. The more you try to convince her to give the MR another chance, the less she will want it. The more you prove your availability, the less she will desire you as her H. She's happy to have you as her BFF, but forget her desiring you as a lover. If that's fine with you......then continue what you've been doing. If that's not what you want, then prepare to do the opposite of what your heart may be dictating at the current time.
Your M can be saved, but first you need to understand that everything she sees in you must be through the lens of respect. She doesn't have to like what you do. In fact, I can about promise you that she won't, initially anyway. You don't need to be her buddy. You don't need to be her unpaid employee. She is not that special, and you don't need to cater to her, or accommodate her. That's not your job. She's fired you as her H, so keep that in mind. Start being your own boss and making decisions that work for you, instead of trying to please your WW who doesn't respect you. This gal has been stringing you along, and she'll continue if you allow it.
Currently, you may feel as if you no longer want to save the M. However, most men find themselves desperate to keep their WW from divorcing them. She can easily smell that desperation, and it will push her further away, b/c it's not attractive. Become the man you respect, first of all. Then consider what a W might respect. I have been shocked to discover how many men are so far removed from the truth. That's why I'm here........to tell you the truth about
women.
I'll tell you what your W would not share.
Can your M be saved? I think so, else I wouldn't waste my time trying to inform you about DBing a WW. My M was saved, and I owe so much to the DB board and the mentors I had back then. I stuck around just so I might help someone like you. So, I hope you'll come here every day and post. Do not let her find your posts on this site. Don't share what you read here. The advice you read on the board is just for you, and not to repeat to her.....unless we specifically tell you to say it. Repeating something you've read, thinking it will impress her or make her think about what she's doing.......will not work. You can't say anything to shock her out of this behavior or mindset. Only actions count with her.
BTW, I strongly suggest you not make any moves without first running it by the board, and giving it a couple of days to think over......especially until you get DB under your belt.
Sandi2,
Question about the WW and time:
You mentioned that in your case that it was a couple years before you took notice of your H, and "snapped back" because he was going to give up on you for real.... and you went to God for help.
Does that mean he was telling you "no" for those years and you had to progress until you reached a point where you cared about that? And because you reached that point, then cared about losing him? Or was it cake eating and later on he toughened up and you noticed? Just curious about how much development has to occur in the WW for them to be able to care.
True?
I'm also curious if you H was praying for you the entire time. If he was, do you think that was a major factor in you seeking God and turning back? I ask that because it seems like most WW's will not approach God AT ALL. My MIL ran away 30 years ago and STILL won't step foot in church, hates religion and is very weird when it comes to the topic of God. I'm wondering if intercessory prayer is a big factor no one is talking about.
-SoloFlex
1. God's and our time is not the same. I don't think he was saying no, but she had to come to the right place mentally herself.
2. God never violates free-will. That's why I never advocate praying to make someone's spouse do something. Like come back, etc. God let's us choose for ourselves.
1. God's and our time is not the same. I don't think he was saying no, but she had to come to the right place mentally herself.
2. God never violates free-will. That's why I never advocate praying to make someone's spouse do something. Like come back, etc. God let's us choose for ourselves.
Right, that's what I was trying to say. She had to be somewhere first (late late replay stage???)..... so the takeaway to me is, at the beginning it doesn't matter what the LBS does, they can't attract the W no matter what. It has to be near the end of replay at the earliest for an LBS to have any effect. The danger being if you're too ugly and communication is cut off near the beginning, they will never see what changes are made and that you're attractive now (near the end of Replay). You end the game early before you've played your hand. That's a bad move (IMO). You have to be nice and communicative... and be 100% consistent on changes (and do them for yourself, not her). To me that means a year at least before you have any hope of her noticing ANYTHING. Would that be correct?
Yes free-will is the choice of the MLC/WW..... but what I was getting at is, God doesn't make choices for you but he does influence and allow people to see/understand (and often puts just the right person in the mix to influence someone for good). That is sooooo powerful. I'd be very curious if many of the ones who did make it back.... was their H standing in the gap for them and praying continually for their W (and I don't mean "God please have her come back"..... I mean, "God I love my W... please help her. I want her to be happy no matter what. More than anything, please draw her back to you"). That's what I'm talking about. I also believe God doesn't like D, and will do anything he can to help prevent it and heal the two people. Sometimes that means MR, sometimes the people are too damaged and the adulterer will suffer the consequences for the rest of their life (I've seen it). Vows are not something to mess around with.
A heart's yearnings to return home, realization of losing their one true love, or something else.... placed by God is a powerful motivation. People CAN still choose to not obey, that's free-will. But I don't think God is a silent witness to the tragedy by any means.
-SoloFlex
Sandi2 - Thanks so much for your comments - extremely helpful.
I am re-reading the LBH threads and going back to the DR book. I need to detach big time and stop engaging with my WW about our relationship. She raises it whenever we're together, which is often due to kids' stuff, and I can't seem to walk away. I always engage in explaining, trying to show her I understand her, trying to look for any words of hope, etc. I can see that this is NOT working, and in fact, sets me back.
After the blow up on Thursday night, she stayed in bed crying most of the next day. She was absolutely miserable because the fantasy she's been having came to an abrupt end. The other guy wants nothing to do with her, and is horrified by her emails I forwarded to him. He thinks she is absolutely crazy and needs mental help. I know others on the thread are convinced this is a real PA, but I know it is fantasy and not just because I want to believe that. In the end, I don't think it really matters. I need to ignore it either way and not confront her about anything else or ask her questions about who she's with, etc. I need to completely detach.
She came to me yesterday to say that I had no business confronting her or the other guy on Thursday because we are separated, and she was very open that she wanted to be independent and not inform me of who she's with or what she's doing. She's also very upset that I forwarded her private emails between her and her therapist to the guy. She deleted all of those emails weeks ago, so now I have the only copies, and she is demanding that I send them all to her, so she can see what I have on her. She is very worried that I will send them to others, especially her family, and they are highly embarrassing to her. She also wants to know what I've said to the other guy, since she claims I'm trying to convince him that she's crazy. I told her I'm not going to talk to the guy anymore and have no interest in him. I also eventually told her that I will send her her emails, since they are her private correspondence, and that I won't forward them to anyone else. I'm doing this to be done thinking about any of this and to be detached from what she does. I realize that my keeping her emails or trying to use them as leverage is only an attempt to control her, which I don't want to do.
She also told me yesterday that since she knows the idea of her dating others or having other relationships while we're separated is hard on me, she will agree not to do that. She says she really wants to work on herself and has no interest in dating, etc. anyway. She also says she wants nothing to do with the other guy anymore, says she hates him, and he won't talk to her anyway because he thinks she's crazy and doesn't want to be a distraction to her. He is extremely averse to drama of any kind, so I do believe he has run for the hills now that everything has come out.
She finally has been saying that she is looking for a reason to stay in the M. She feels she can't leave because it will be too hard on the kids and will not end our problems, but she also can't stay because I don't ever really listen to her or accept her needs as valid. She is citing the fact that I haven't yet sent her her emails as an example of how I try to control her and won't hear that she is saying she needs those back because they are private and important to her. She also says that she feels so violated and humiliated because I sent the emails, and it scares her that I don't seem to understand that or feel empathy for what I've done.
After reading the LBH threads again, I am convinced that I need to seriously disengage and, frankly, avoid her and any relationship discussions of any kind. I need to not spend any time alone with her and only address kids' details and practicalities. Otherwise, I need to do what I want to do in my life and spend time with my kids. Whenever we get together to discuss kids, we end up having a good time, going out to dinner, sometimes having sex, sometimes talking about our relationship, etc., but that just leads to more and more of the same. Eventually, I feel hurt and like I have no control. I also feel that her lack of respect for me will only grow if she feels she can keep me around in this way by dangling some hope in front of me every now and then. It will be hard - and will feel very unnatural - not to engage, but I will keep at it.
Any words of advice or encouragement are appreciated, as always.
You mentioned that in your case that it was a couple years before you took notice of your H, and "snapped back" because he was going to give up on you for real
Maybe you misunderstood how I said something, so let me try to do a better job at explaining. I was never concerned about my H giving up on me, okay? That's not how a WW thinks. I never worried he would leave me. I think that's something in the mentality of those who turn out to be LBS's and those who are WS's, but I have no written statics or proof......just observation. I'm not saying it's in every case, but I see it show up a lot on the board.
It took years of resentment and increasing feelings of disrespect before I actually crossed the line to have an affair. The woman has a
wayward mindset before she ever dabbles in an A or inappropriate behavior. (I explain this mindset in the first thread of my WW series.) So anyway, I felt dead inside, except for the pain. To shorten the story, I began withdrawing more & more, and eventually, I had an EA or Internet A. He was not local. I was not "shocked back" like LBS's seem to think of it happening. It was more like a couple of weeks of a slow build up of things.......that led up to the final biggie. However, what many LBH's don't understand when using this description of "shocked awake" or "snapped back" is that it isn't that simple. I didn't "snap back" and then everything was lovely from that point.
I had secretly been planning to move out and get an apartment, and OM was going to pay for it. Actually, he wanted me to just pack my bags and move to his place. Thankfully, I started seeing little cracks in the OM's armor. Just little ones that maybe a younger woman might have given no concern.
The
shocker had nothing to do with my H. Although he had confronted me, he was like a lot of H's I find on the board who have no plan of action beyond the confrontation. I simply went deeper underground with my A. And, saw no action from my H. My plan was to tell my adult children that their father and I were having M problems, to prepare them for the S I intended. The Shock that blew me away, came from my daughter, when she cut through all the b.s. I was giving her, and told me she knew OM and called him by name. She had found about the A on our home computer, and read our IM's........everything. I was horrified, b/c that meant the rest of my family knew. So, I'd say that experience devastated my original plans how to introduce OM to my family.......as if everything was so
innocent . This post is getting long and I have not even begun to answer your question. I'll try to shorten it. My D's confrontation with me, did get my eyes opened to reality, and I experienced a loss that nobody understands how precious it was to me (b/c each person has that one special loss). I knew they would never look at me in the way they previously saw me. (Another long story I won't get into). Now all they saw was a big hypocrite. All the things I had taught about God, and living the Christian life, etc........was destroyed, and I had nobody to blame but myself. This one could not be pinned on my H's back.
So, yes, I had the shock and the loss at the same time, and yes it opened my eyes to see reality. If you call that experience as "snapped back", then I guess on some level... maybe. I came to my senses. But I think we give to much credit to the "fog", and LBS's think once the fog is gone, their spouse will back to their old selves. It's not that way with
wayward spouses. There is too much they have to process in order to get back to the person they once were. For one thing, their feelings are a total mess. I mean, she loved her H, then didn't love him. She thought she loved the OM, and then had to dump those feelings. So, no, she doesn't "snap" back to necessarily being the loving W she once was. If anything, she thinks her last chance for happiness is gone. So guys, I'm saying don't expect to see her gushing with excitement and happiness.
Look, the LBH does most of his internal work after he receives his shock......which is the bomb. So, consider the WW has her own internal work after her shock, awakening, or whatever you want to label it. Trust me, she can stop the wayward actions much easier than controlling and retraining her wayward mindset. Someone mentioned it as almost a spiritual experience/journey......and for me, it was. She's got a lot of work to do on that mindset of hers. She has to overcome her stubborn pride, and all that gunk she saved up through the MR, and her so-called justification that drove her rebellion. Some women can work much faster than others, but I am actually suspicious when a LBH declares that his WW
snapped back to her old self. It's not that easy.
She can end her affair, be completely transparent with her H, go to MC, and whatever is necessary to heal and save the MR. It's a process, and I think it takes a little time for her to fall back in love with her H again. She can make decisions to do the right thing, even if her feelings don't exactly match the action at the time. She can choose to show respectful behavior toward her H. She may not feel all those things at first, but if she will cut all contact with her AP and get him out of her head, and forgive her H for stuff in the past...... then her feelings will eventually match her actions. I did end my EA, and cut all contact. My mistake was fantasizing about OM. I would go to sleep thinking of OM.
.... and you went to God for help.
Does that mean he was telling you "no" for those years and you had to progress until you reached a point where you cared about that? And because you reached that point, then cared about losing him? Or was it cake eating and later on he toughened up and you noticed? Just curious about how much development has to occur in the WW for them to be able to care.
Big question, and as you get to know me, you'll learn I use too many words to answer.
Someone mentioned how it sounds like a spiritual journey for the WW to get back. For me, it
had to be a spiritual journey, b/c of how I believe the scripture. I mean, yes I backslid, but I still believed the Word of God. I had neglected what the scriptures teach wives to do......which is to respect their H. I had broken my vows. I couldn't get my life right, much less my M right, until I got myself right with God. So, I confessed the whole thing about my A, and asked for God's forgiveness. Okay......no big earthquake or shaking of the bed where I laid. I claimed I John 1:9, but I didn't feel remorse for how I had treated my H. I knew I was wrong, and confessed it........but I didn't feel anything. I decided I was use to relying on my emotions too much, and this was about having the faith to believe God's forgiven me.
Well, things got a little better but it bugged me that I did not feel remorse for how I treated my H. The feelings in my heart simply did not warm up. I was choosing to show respectful behavior, but my heart was still cold. I knew I still had years of resentment and disrespect for him as a man/husband. Furthermore, I knew God saw that poison in my heart..... and nothing was going to get better until it started with a
deep cleaning. I was going to have to get real with God and go deep this time......b/c I had let it ride for a long time. I actually prayed that God would give me feelings of remorse for what I had done to my H and our M. Funny how things suddenly become obvious when you get real with God about your sins (all of them) and earnestly seek His help. And, listen, I asked in reverential
fear of what it might take in order for me to feel remorse.
One night, while getting real with God, I had to admit that I still fantasized about the OM. I knew it was wrong. And, duh........I realized my feelings for my H would never change as long as I was keeping the affair alive in my head. Even though I had cut all contact with OM......I was still feeding my addiction via fantasizing. And, let me tell ya........that is hard to kick! Anyway....moving right along here, let's get to the good part. One night when I was still talking to God about how I had no desire for my H, and I had stopped fantasizing about OM.......but I still felt no remorse. All I felt was a bit ball of hard resentment of things in the past. It was like a cancer eating away my life. Then, call it God, or whatever, the question came. "Can you forgive him?" "Can you really forgive him for all those things and let go of the past?" Then suddenly I felt as if I lay there with nothing but a sheet of hypocrisy wrapped around my body. Who was I to resent my H for being a young, tender, too gentle, a bit immature, and suffering through experiences I had not yet had, and not having any more education about women, than I had about men?,...........etc., etc. The list seemed endless. But it always ended with the same three words....... Who was I?
Indeed! I don't know how long I laid there while memories flashed through my mind. Nothing he had done compared to how I had hurt him. Nothing! He had even told me he forgave me. So if he could forgive me of a greater offense, who was I to withhold forgiveness of a lesser offense. (See the spiritual picture?) Finally, I said...... "Yes, Lord, I forgive him for
everything. I will no longer blame him. Then it was if the Hoover Dam broke, and remorse flooded throughout my being. For the first time since he had confronted me about my A, I could humbly apologize to my H.
The almost two-year period began when I made the decision to do the right thing which was end my A......to when I finally gave all my resentment and bad feelings for my H to God. After the night I felt humility and told my H how sorry I was.......then I could put effort into the MR, and the good feelings caught up to match the actions. The reason it took nearly two years was b/c of my stubborn pride.
I never felt as if I was losing my H, b/c he never did any actions that told me so. If I had, then this post would have been much shorter. (lol) This is one of the reasons I am here, telling you H's about the WW. She should worry she's going to lose him! But how can she when he chases after her and telling her how much he wants the M to work?
I'm also curious if you H was praying for you the entire time. If he was, do you think that was a major factor in you seeking God and turning back? I ask that because it seems like most WW's will not approach God AT ALL. My MIL ran away 30 years ago and STILL won't step foot in church, hates religion and is very weird when it comes to the topic of God. I'm wondering if intercessory prayer is a big factor no one is talking about.
Oh absolutely! My H is a strong Christian. And, I understand what you are saying about how a lot of WW's wouldn't approach God at all, or they hate religion, etc. I'm just sharing my experience. Family and religion are extremely influential in our lives. I try not to force my particular religious beliefs down anyone throats here. Cause, I might not want to hear someone talking about their preferred religion. To answer your other question, I do believe in intercessory prayer. I am quick to add that I don't believe God is going to force an individual to do something against their own volition. However, I have seen some pretty amazing things happen as a result of intercessory prayer.
One of things we always say is that if you catch a cheater they will rarely stop cheating, but just take their cheating even deeper underground.
I'd believe him as far as I could throw him. You believe him because you want to believe him.
100%..... you have to let it run it's course, or it will be worse.
Never confront. Ignore.
If it comes into the house you're living in (not the guest house) then it's boundary time, and if it's broken..... leave or make her leave (her leave is better).
-SoloFlex
Never confronting is not solid advice. And how does one spouse simply ignore an affair? Many here have endured an affair, but none have ignored.
Most here confront and then try to ignore while they spin in emotion and pain and weakness.
I'd recommend reading some older threads on different DB techniques. MWD is not a fan of confrontation bc most LBS are not strong enough yet to act after confroning.
Thanks ovrrnbw.
I confronted and now am trying to be as detached as possible with mixed success. I’ve slipped up a few times with some angry words. I’m pretty p*ssed off, and it shows at times.
This is actually a question I’m struggling with. How do I show my disapproval and be generally unavailable / unhelpful to discourage cake eating while also being “cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times”?
Ovr, I think the point on Jay confronting was that he now believes there was nothing to confront. So in Jay's sitch he now is bearing the brunt of confronting but there is no benefit, since supposedly there was nothing going on.
Jay, detachment isn't so much something you do, it is something too become. You need to be emotionally level around her. And do not emotionally react. She could come to you and confess a gang bang with 50 guys and you'd not even blink.
And showing your disapproval is the opposite of that.
Also can you tell me what you think cake eating is?
Steve85 - I hear what you’re saying about not emotionally reacting.
What I mean by cake eating is having me as the solid provider, helpful partner, etc., while she’s carrying on a fantasy IA about someone else. I don’t want to be available to her like that, want to express my unwillingness to accept the disrespect, etc., but also see in Sandi2’s rules the need to be cheerful, outgoing and attractive at all times. I’m not very cheerful about being her fallback/reality check getting in the way of her IA.
Another issue we’re having is with housing. We need to move out of our house in a month due to the landlord moving in. We can’t afford two houses large enough for our kids, so W has proposed we get a large enough main house where the kids will stay, and a small apartment that we share. We’d each alternately stay away in the apartment part of the week while the other stays with kids in the main house. I’ve heard everyone saying I should refuse to ever live away from my kids, since I don’t want this separation, but she threatens D and going to court or will get a loan from her brother for a large enough house for her and the kids if we can’t cooperate on this. Thoughts?
This is actually a question I’m struggling with. How do I show my disapproval and be generally unavailable / unhelpful to discourage cake eating while also being “cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times”?
Rule #13 is meant to show how you go about living your life, whether at home or going out. The 37 rules are to give the newcomer a general sense of direction when he comes here. Some newcomers say they are lost and don't know how to act day-to-day. Some newcomers think they should reflect how hurt and upset they feel, or else their spouse may think they are not taking the sitch seriously. They seem to believe they should look and act pathetic in order to make their spouse feel sorry, guilty, or whatever. However, that doesn't work. So, this rule is basically telling the newcomer to do the opposite. Instead of going for days without shaving, not combing your hair, not bathing, looking like a slob, crying, having a pity party, not going out, and/or showing your spouse/family actions that you are obviously devastated............you take the opposite approach. You take care of your appearance when you are home, and you hold up your head and present your best side. You keep moving and showing that you are a strong, attractive man and the sitch will not take that away from you. You are in control of yourself. You continue going out, even if you don't want to do anything but mope in your sadness. See what I mean?
If you walk in on your W in bed with another man, does it mean you jump in the air, click your heels, and making sure she'll see a cheerful reaction in you? No! Don't swallow a camel and strain at a gnat when reading/applying these rules. Don't let those two words, "be cheerful", confuse you. This particular rule is about the LBS being an attractive individual, in spite of the sitch.
You ask how to show your disapproval. Are you thinking if you don't show her certain body language, facial expressions, moods, or words......she'll assume that you've accepted things? You've been dealt a big blow, and your feelings are normal, IMHO. It has little effect on her for you to go around with a sour disposition and having an angry expression on your face......in order to show her you disapprove. What you need to do is decide what you won't tolerate in your life, relationships, etc. You can't control
her life and what she does........only your life. You protect your feelings and maintain your self respect by setting boundaries. If someone dishonors your boundary, then you have to decide what you will do to protect yourself from experiencing that situation again. You see, if she dishonors your boundary and there are no consequences for her, then she's not going to honor it the next time. Since you are already separated and she has an affair......about all you can do is either get a divorce, or else remove yourself from interaction with her (as much as possible).
This leads to the part of your question about not being helpful and discouraging cake eating.
That would be a consequence, IMHO. If she has dishonored your boundary, then you don't share an apartment with her. You don't provide the usual duties that are commonly associated with the H (such as her house repairs, upkeep of her lawn, her automobile upkeep, giving her tech assistance, running errands for her, etc.) Again, be smart here. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face. For example, if your name is on her automobile, then you need to make sure it has insurance coverage, or sell it......just get your name off, b/c it could cost you major money if you don't protect yourself. Make sense?
If you are separated, and you've discovered she wants an affair with someone, or is engaged in some type of inappropriate behavior you find offensive, then stop playing house with her. If she has told you she doesn't want to work on the MR at this time or she's giving vague answers........then playing as if one big happy family. She has fired you, so stop playing like you are still her H. It's in name only. There is a holiday coming up this weekend (if you live in the USA), so if you have the kids and want to plan something special to do......that's great, but don't invite mommy. If she asks, just say no. If the kids ask, just say no. She should not expect or assume you would welcome her. She will use the excuse that she's still a part of this family, whenever it suits her........but, you can stop her from coming to your place and engaging in your activities. If it's your day with the kids, then take them to a park or somewhere....as a surprise for them. Plus, if you have extended family living nearby, you don't invite her to their usual family traditions of celebrating, or whatever event. You can tell your family you & W are separated, and ask them to support you by not inviting her to extended family activities during this period of separation.
If she doesn't want to work on the MR, then cut out the cake eating. That means you don't ride together to attend the school functions/sports/whatever. You aren't a couple, so you don't act as her escort. You aren't required to sit with her if you show up at the same local events (school, work, community, etc.). If she comes in and sets next to you, act nonchalant, but don't get are warm & fuzzy.....b/c she's just keeping up appearances or doesn't want to sit alone. Again, stay balanced with what I am saying, okay? Newcomers seem to have trouble staying balanced with the advice they read.
Don't initiate texting, unless it is a real emergency. Don't respond to her texts, unless it is about business that affects you, or it's about your kids. Don't get wordy. Learn to answer her questions in as few words as possible. You are not her counselor, BFF, errand boy, event planner, rescuer, accountant, or sex buddy. All that type of "help" ceases immediately. Explanations shouldn't be necessary, but she'll probably push for it. She'll buck, huff & puff.......cause she doesn't like not getting served her usual cake to eat. Don't borrow things from the board, like she's fired you. IMHO, that's not a good response you would use with her. That's just a term we are explaining to you! See what I mean?
If she reacts to these type of consequences, you remain stoic to her huffing & puffing about not getting her cake. These actions are not meant to be punitive, although she'll probably accuse you of it. You see, you are giving her plenty of space and freedom for her to find herself and whatever other b.s. she gave at the time of the bomb drop. You are just giving her much more than she expected or wanted. She doesn't get to tear up the family, and still play the role of one big happy family with the kids.
These are just my suggestions, as per my knowledge of WW's. You may not want to go that strong, IDK. I'm simply telling you how to cut out a lot of her cake eating. Btw, if you have not consulted with a lawyer, you need to ASAP. Know your rights as a father, child support, etc. You don't share with her. Get your finances & back accounts secured/protected, b/c you cannot trust her right now. As soon as you stop serving cake, you will see the ugly surface. However, that's another subject for another post.
Another issue we’re having is with housing. We need to move out of our house in a month due to the landlord moving in. We can’t afford two houses large enough for our kids, so W has proposed we get a large enough main house where the kids will stay, and a small apartment that we share. We’d each alternately stay away in the apartment part of the week while the other stays with kids in the main house. I’ve heard everyone saying I should refuse to ever live away from my kids, since I don’t want this separation, but she threatens D and going to court or will get a loan from her brother for a large enough house for her and the kids if we can’t cooperate on this. Thoughts?
Worst idea ever. Many here have tried this and it is almost always a terrible idea. I would not do this.
Hey Jay, how is your day going?
Hi Sandi2, thanks for reaching out. Tough couple of days to be honest.
An ongoing theme from my W is that she can't stay with me because I don't respect her needs. She feels I am generally very dismissive of her needs and often refused to hear, let alone, accept or meet those needs over the course of our marriage. As a result, she says that if I would only accept her need now for a one-year separation and be cooperative and not an obstacle, that actually makes her feel some hope for us because it demonstrates that I have heard her and care about her.
Unfortunately, her definition of this separation involves potentially dating/sex with others, not working on the MR, yet remaining on friendly terms, cooperating/helping each other, etc. for the year. All of that is very difficult for me to accept, let alone support, facilitate, or collaborate on. Of course, she has also been sending mixed signals since she has said both that she will agree not to date, but then today says that she doesn't want me to have control over her life so thinks she needs to be able to date, even if she has no intention of doing so. She has also said that she doesn't want us to work on the MR because she considers the M over, but she has also said that she will go to MC with me every other week. She also throws out the D threat if I push her too hard by being difficult. I have spoken with a lawyer, and I will be pretty devastated financially if we get a D because she basically hasn't worked much in the last 10 years while we lived abroad due to my career. She has conflicting emotions, which is where a lot of these mixed signals are coming from. Even our MC therapist said that she seems highly conflicted internally about this decision.
Where I keep messing up in my DBing is that when she says the most threatening things to me, usually involving her wanting to be able to date, I have such a hard time being detached or disengaging. I would like to drop the rope, and I have tried to express the "no dating" rule as a boundary of mine that, if crossed, will result in the types of reactions you mention above (only logistical kids stuff and anything else legally required but nothing more at all). That’s when she says that in that case, we should just D, which she knows I don't want. I know not to believe anything she says, so I’m trying to remember that, but I find it hard in the moment to merely validate without engaging in a fuller discussion.
She also has said a few times, including this morning, that she is very upset I confronted her and her ‘friend’ (the guy she has had IA/fantasies about) last week since he now thinks she is crazy. In her mind, she had told me we were separated, so I had no right to confront them, and also I ‘convinced’ him that she’s crazy and was going to leave her kids for him, so I should now contact him to undo this damage and explain that she’s not crazy and that she is not abandoning her kids. Of course, I didn’t convince him of anything. I simply sent him her emails, and he concluded that she’s in a fantasy world, and he thinks she needs help. He wants nothing to do with her now. It’s all so bizarre, since I’m still the one who has been wronged here, and her fantasies as expressed in multiple writings are very irrational. She was kind to me about it the day after it all happened, but now she’s becoming more and more angry, presumably because she’s feeling the loss. Obviously, I won’t contact the guy again.
I’m basically trying to avoid her at the moment since I’m living in the other house for a couple of days as we agreed. I feel better, even though I miss my kids these two days, just because it’s easier to not engage when she’s not physically present. I also feel pretty discouraged that we can ever find our way back to each other. It makes me feel like giving up. I realize time is on my side, and the situation will remain fluid for awhile, so I’m sure I’ll feel more encouraged soon. Ugh! What a terrible experience!
Hi Sandi2, thanks for reaching out. Tough couple of days to be honest.
An ongoing theme from my W is that she can't stay with me because I don't respect her needs. She feels I am generally very dismissive of her needs and often refused to hear, let alone, accept or meet those needs over the course of our marriage. As a result, she says that if I would only accept her need now for a one-year separation and be cooperative and not an obstacle, that actually makes her feel some hope for us because it demonstrates that I have heard her and care about her.
PURE manipulation. She is manipulating you into "getting on board and going with her plan". It is a test. You can play nice and not be worthy of respect, or do what is best for you and earn her respect. Tread lightly here, because every shovel full out of the lack of respect hole is another shovel of respect you'll have to earn back later. Stop digging that hole.
Unfortunately, her definition of this separation involves potentially dating/sex with others, not working on the MR, yet remaining on friendly terms, cooperating/helping each other, etc. for the year. All of that is very difficult for me to accept, let alone support, facilitate, or collaborate on. Of course, she has also been sending mixed signals since she has said both that she will agree not to date, but then today says that she doesn't want me to have control over her life so thinks she needs to be able to date, even if she has no intention of doing so. She has also said that she doesn't want us to work on the MR because she considers the M over, but she has also said that she will go to MC with me every other week. She also throws out the D threat if I push her too hard by being difficult. I have spoken with a lawyer, and I will be pretty devastated financially if we get a D because she basically hasn't worked much in the last 10 years while we lived abroad due to my career. She has conflicting emotions, which is where a lot of these mixed signals are coming from. Even our MC therapist said that she seems highly conflicted internally about this decision.
Your W is a WW and has no repect for you. That is what all this means. She continues to soften you up for what she wants. WWs don't need to live alone or "separate" to work on themselves or the MR, or to find themselves. They need to live alone so they can sleep with other people. I say that so you know what you are up against. Want to start earning respect back? Go to her today and say this: "Thanks for your offer of MC every other week, however I see no reason to that since the M is over. I have a lot to work on myself and will be starting/continuing (I can't remember if you already are in IC) IC for myself instead."
Where I keep messing up in my DBing is that when she says the most threatening things to me, usually involving her wanting to be able to date, I have such a hard time being detached or disengaging. I would like to drop the rope, and I have tried to express the "no dating" rule as a boundary of mine that, if crossed, will result in the types of reactions you mention above (only logistical kids stuff and anything else legally required but nothing more at all). That’s when she says that in that case, we should just D, which she knows I don't want. I know not to believe anything she says, so I’m trying to remember that, but I find it hard in the moment to merely validate without engaging in a fuller discussion.
Yes this is huge messing up. JayR, where is the listening and validating?? Stop fighting things that are out of your control. Your W could start dating today and there isn't a thing in the world you could do with it. You have to let her go to get her back. Listen. Validate. Avoid these discussions like the plague. Listen and validate. (I repeat to pound it home.) Then make an excuse to get out of there. If she asks you something during these "discussions" remember this: "I am not sure how to answer. I have a lot to process and need time to consider everything."
She also has said a few times, including this morning, that she is very upset I confronted her and her ‘friend’ (the guy she has had IA/fantasies about) last week since he now thinks she is crazy. In her mind, she had told me we were separated, so I had no right to confront them, and also I ‘convinced’ him that she’s crazy and was going to leave her kids for him, so I should now contact him to undo this damage and explain that she’s not crazy and that she is not abandoning her kids. Of course, I didn’t convince him of anything. I simply sent him her emails, and he concluded that she’s in a fantasy world, and he thinks she needs help. He wants nothing to do with her now. It’s all so bizarre, since I’m still the one who has been wronged here, and her fantasies as expressed in multiple writings are very irrational. She was kind to me about it the day after it all happened, but now she’s becoming more and more angry, presumably because she’s feeling the loss. Obviously, I won’t contact the guy again.
This is why we do not recommend confronting. It hardly ever results in anything positive for the LBS, and usually backfires like this. Remember, she blames you for everything right now. And now she has this to blame you for. Further you can't trust anything she or him says. This could all be a ruse to cover up future rendezvouses. So your confrontation, for all you really know, netted you nothing. And, even if it ruined their blossoming romance, guess what? She will just move on to OM#2. WWs are like that. And this time she will be very secretive about it.
I’m basically trying to avoid her at the moment since I’m living in the other house for a couple of days as we agreed. I feel better, even though I miss my kids these two days, just because it’s easier to not engage when she’s not physically present. I also feel pretty discouraged that we can ever find our way back to each other. It makes me feel like giving up. I realize time is on my side, and the situation will remain fluid for awhile, so I’m sure I’ll feel more encouraged soon. Ugh! What a terrible experience!
Ups and downs are part of the process. However, having been through it, I can tell you that you will feel like crap until you start DBing consistently and well. Doing what is intuitive (confronting OM, trying to control her, etc) will almost always result in the lowest of lows. When you get better at GAL (how is that going, btw?), detachment (remember you need to get to an emtionally stable state), and working on yourself (see the quote you should give her above about MC vs IC) and 180ing on bad behavior then you'll start feeling much better.
Not DBing means more discouragement and lows. DBing will lead to feeling better and highs.
Damn Steve85, this is all really great advice! I feel better just having read it.
On the first point, it feels like if I make things difficult, that obviously pisses her off, but it also complicates my life and that of my kids. It takes a lot of effort to be resistant. I’m trying to find the right balance, but it’s hard. I guess I’m not truly certain about what is “best for me and worthy of respect.”
Also, how do I reconcile my need to establish boundaries with the guidance to listen and validate? I can validate all day, but at some point, especially with my boundaries, I feel like telling her she can f@#k off! That’s also how I feel I can retain some self respect. I’ll continue to avoid R discussions as much as possible nonetheless.
I’m very much looking forward to DBing more consistently, so I can stop/slow the ups and downs. I’m still working on GAL, with some success. I’ve been meeting new people, especially women with whom I I have fun, and that makes me feel so much less focused on the crap. It also reminds me of who I was before the MR.
Welcome your thoughts again, as always.
I would avoid meeting women right now. It almost always leads to more problems. First you aren't emotionally ready to be with someone new. You have too much emotional baggage with your WW right now. Second, fighting fire with fire just creates more fire. I know that LBHs often go looking for a self-esteem boost from other women, but it a bandaid on a gaping wound. It is temporary relief. There have been many other posters here that have tried it and have been worse off for it. Learn from the mistakes of others.
Go read the boundaries thread. So many posters get boundaries wrong. They think means ultimatums. And they use them to try to exert control. Both of those things will blow up in your face. Backfire. And then make you look weak when you do not follow through. And most LBSs are not willing to follow through. They are like parents that keep saying "don't do that or else!" And then when the kid goes ahead and does it there is no "or else".
So focus on what you can control...YOU! GAL needs to be ramped up. You need to work on detachment. And you have plenty of 180s to make (stop trying to control, stop watching her like a hawk, I'd even consider stopping the swapping into and out of the guest house, take back the mbr fulltime and tell her she is welcome to sleep where she wants).
JayR, you can do this......patience and self control...................
I've been detaching quite a bit and really avoiding all R discussions, except to reiterate that I am not going around spreading lies about my W to anyone, nor am I am claiming that she is crazy or trying to abandon our children, since she is not. I have also said that I would mostly be staying in our house and not using the other house, but she is welcome to stay wherever she wants. I am basically being courteous, but not her "friend".
She is becoming more and more agitated and angry. She is also saying things like the following:
"Well, now I am certain that our M is really over, and I will not change my mind."
"You need to understand that I am done and accept that we will never be together again. You need to stop the manipulation so we can find a solution in our D or S that will care for the kids."
"I can't be married to someone who lies about me and acts like I am mentally unstable while pretending he isn't acting that way."
"By making the break up harder, you are not going to make me stay, so stop."
The thing is, I am not trying to control her at all, and I am certainly not running around telling friend/family about what she has been doing or saying. I am of course taking to the people in my life who are supportive of me, but I am not maligning her reputation as she apparently thinks I am. I am just not engaging in R discussions, and I am not going out of my way to be helpful or acting like everything is wonderful, which is what she wants because that would be easier on her. I am not responding to her lengthy texts about our R or taking her calls, except in case of a real emergency. I'm just trying to ignore and detach.
She is clearly becoming more and more upset and is digging in her heals now more than ever that our M is over, which is frankly making me feel nervous.
Thoughts? I appreciate any guidance from folks who've been here before. Thanks!
She's saying it's over? Say "I understand" and then go back to whatever you were doing. Leave if she keeps badgering you.
Also, how do I reconcile my need to establish boundaries with the guidance to listen and validate? I can validate all day, but at some point, especially with my boundaries, I feel like telling her she can f@#k off! That’s also how I feel I can retain some self respect. I’ll continue to avoid R discussions as much as possible nonetheless.
You listen, validate to shut down any argument. If she's looking for a fight, telling her to F off will make a fight so you walk if it gets crazy.
I've been detaching quite a bit and really avoiding all R discussions, except to reiterate that I am not going around spreading lies about my W to anyone, nor am I am claiming that she is crazy or trying to abandon our children, since she is not.
Don't reiterate anything to her, just leave her be. If she tells you anything, no matter how crazy only LISTEN and VALIDATE. No explaining, arguing, reasoning, negotiating, etc. "You sound angry, is that how you feel?" "I am sorry you are feeling frustrated, I understand this must be very difficult for you." She will say all kinds of spew, your job is to defuse things before they run wild. She will tell you everything is your fault from the rain to the cat she ran over on her way to work. You have to be a pillar of peace and understanding while she spews nonsense.
"Well, now I am certain that our M is really over, and I will not change my mind."
"That is not what I want but I understand it is what you want and I will not interfere. I will respect your decision on this."
"You need to understand that I am done and accept that we will never be together again. You need to stop the manipulation so we can find a solution in our D or S that will care for the kids."
"I do not want S or D but I understand that is what you want and I will not stand in your way. I will not help you though. If you need something from me I will provide it, but do not ask me to assist in any other way."
"I can't be married to someone who lies about me and acts like I am mentally unstable while pretending he isn't acting that way."
"That sounds very frustrating and difficult."
"By making the break up harder, you are not going to make me stay, so stop."
"I cannot and will not try to make you stay, it is your choice to leave or not."
The thing is, I am not trying to control her at all, and I am certainly not running around telling friend/family about what she has been doing or saying.
It doesn't matter. Those are her feelings, and you can't change someone's feelings. If you try then you are only INVALIDATING their feelings which makes them feel attacked. It doesn't matter how "right" or "wrong" her feelings are, all you can do is let her have them by listening and validating. Eventually she'll see how unreasonable she was being, but SHE has to discover that. You cannot REASON with her.
I am of course taking to the people in my life who are supportive of me, but I am not maligning her reputation as she apparently thinks I am.
Only discuss your sitch here or with people that have ZERO contact with your W. DO NOT talk to friends and family, just tell them "we're going through some difficulties right now" and leave it at that, say no more. Even the smallest things you say will find their way back to her and she will see it as you "rallying the troops" against her, and that is BAD.
I am not responding to her lengthy texts about our R or taking her calls, except in case of a real emergency. I'm just trying to ignore and detach.
Good. Just stick to business, coordinating kids' needs and such. The rest either ignore or listen and validate.
Thanks for the help!
AnotherStander - I hear you about not speaking with anyone who is in contact with my W, but we have numerous mutual couple friends. Usually the husband and I are talking, while my W talks to the wife, and I find the husbands' support helpful to me. Are you saying that I should not discuss any of this with these friends of mine?
Also, my wife is going out of her way running around telling her family and friends (some of whom are also my friends - see above) every negative thing she can about me and our MR, including throwing around words like
"abusive," and saying/implying I was a womanizer, an alcoholic, gambling addict, etc., when I was none of these things. In her mind, though, I was all of them if I ever did anything that she didn't approve of or that didn't meet her needs. Of course, I was not perfect over 20 years of marriage, so it is easy for her to point out some facts that support her claims when I'm not around to defend myself. I am not going out of my way to defend myself to these people, but I do need to continue to have relationships with many of them, especially some of her family members who watch our kids frequently. Do I not say anything to even present that there is another side to the stories she is telling?
Those that are innocent do not have to refute every false accusation. People that know you know the truth. The way you show them that it isn't true is that you behave in a way around them those shows them it isn't true. One of the things I learned here and through my sitch, ACTIONS speak LOUDER than WORDS! I'd always heard that. But now I have no doubt in the truth of that statement. And I try to use it in all aspects of my life now.
So show those people she is wrong by behaving right and proper always.
So, W is extremely angry and despondent now! She sent me, literally, 20 text messages on my way to work today saying I am ruining her life and ruining my kids' lives because I won't "let her leave" or be "kind and cooperative". I'm really not sure what she means, since I have NOT been trying to control much of anything she is doing. What I have demanded is that we divide the kids' time equitably between us, and I have said that since we will only have one "main" house and one small apartment, I want to spend part of the time in the main house where my kids live just like she does. She keeps claiming that if I care about her happiness at all, and for all of my sins during our M, I should be helpful and kind and cooperative.
I have been sticking to listening and validating, but she says that I sound completely uncaring when I do this. I texted her back this morning only to say that I was sorry she is feeling so upset and that I will not - and cannot - make her stay, nor will I interfere. It her choice, and while it is not what I want, I will respect her decision. She is just so angry now! She is also accusing me of trying to keep her prisoner in a loveless marriage, and we will all suffer for this. I have to interact with her later, and I'm concerned about her confronting me further, but I will do my best to just listen and validate and then leave the conversation as quickly as possible.
Any other advice is appreciated. Thanks!
I hear you about not speaking with anyone who is in contact with my W, but we have numerous mutual couple friends. Usually the husband and I are talking, while my W talks to the wife, and I find the husbands' support helpful to me. Are you saying that I should not discuss any of this with these friends of mine?
Here's how that plays out. Once the other couple returns homes, the W picks her H to learn every word you said to him. Then she tells your W what you revealed.
That's what women do........and that is why you should not discuss the sitch with mutual friends.
Also, my wife is going out of her way running around telling her family and friends (some of whom are also my friends - see above) every negative thing she can about me and our MR, including throwing around words like
"abusive," and saying/implying I was a womanizer, an alcoholic, gambling addict, etc., when I was none of these things.
That's what WW's do! She's going to blame you for everything, and if she has to lie in order to make herself appear more justified in her actions......that's what she'll do.
You are not wayward. You don't have to jump around, trying to put out fires she starts. If you live honorably, then that speaks for itself.
I am not going out of my way to defend myself to these people, but I do need to continue to have relationships with many of them, especially some of her family members who watch our kids frequently. Do I not say anything to even present that there is another side to the stories she is telling?
Are they asking you direct questions, or just relating some of the things she has told them? These are "her" family members. IMHO, if they press something, I would just tell them not to believe everything they hear. Don't get defensive and start telling your side of the story. In the end, it's a "he said---she said", which fuels the gossipers.
AnotherStander - I hear you about not speaking with anyone who is in contact with my W, but we have numerous mutual couple friends. Usually the husband and I are talking, while my W talks to the wife, and I find the husbands' support helpful to me. Are you saying that I should not discuss any of this with these friends of mine?
Yes that is absolutely what I'm saying! Like Sandi said EVERYTHING you tell these guys is going to end up whispered into W's ear. She is just going to see it as you trying to "rally the troops" against her, and it will drive her farther away.
Also, my wife is going out of her way running around telling her family and friends (some of whom are also my friends - see above) every negative thing she can about me and our MR, including throwing around words like
"abusive," and saying/implying I was a womanizer, an alcoholic, gambling addict, etc., when I was none of these things.
We call this "rewriting history" and it's a popular WAS pasttime. Like Sandi said, don't try and run around putting those fires out, just conduct yourself with dignity and respect and let those actions defend you.
I am not going out of my way to defend myself to these people, but I do need to continue to have relationships with many of them, especially some of her family members who watch our kids frequently. Do I not say anything to even present that there is another side to the stories she is telling?
If you say anything just say "you know me, ask yourself if any of that sounds accurate to you." And leave it at that.
She sent me, literally, 20 text messages on my way to work today saying I am ruining her life and ruining my kids' lives because I won't "let her leave" or be "kind and cooperative". I'm really not sure what she means, since I have NOT been trying to control much of anything she is doing. What I have demanded is that we divide the kids' time equitably between us, and I have said that since we will only have one "main" house and one small apartment, I want to spend part of the time in the main house where my kids live just like she does. She keeps claiming that if I care about her happiness at all, and for all of my sins during our M, I should be helpful and kind and cooperative.
In other words, you should leave and let her live in the house with the kids while you pay for everything. Do everything she says or you are "uncooperative" and "abusive" or whatever. Look she is testing you, this is what waywards do. The worst thing you can do is cave to her demands because you will set yourself up for even more of this treatment in the future. Stand your ground. State that you are not leaving but if she wishes to then that is her choice and you will not stand in her way. Then when she replies "RANT RANT RANT I HATE YOU BLAH BLAH BLAH ABUSER" then reply "it sounds like you are very frustrated with your situation, that must be difficult. But I will not allow you to address me in this manner, if this continues then the conversation is over." If she continues the rants then quit replying.
I have been sticking to listening and validating, but she says that I sound completely uncaring when I do this.
That's OK, nothing you do is going to appease her right now. But down the road it will help. Just keep doing it.
I texted her back this morning only to say that I was sorry she is feeling so upset and that I will not - and cannot - make her stay, nor will I interfere.
Perfect!
She is also accusing me of trying to keep her prisoner in a loveless marriage, and we will all suffer for this.
Just remind her the door is open and she can leave whenever she wants. She's trying to bully you into leaving, DO NOT FALL FOR IT.
I have to interact with her later, and I'm concerned about her confronting me further, but I will do my best to just listen and validate and then leave the conversation as quickly as possible.
Good! Do not put up with abusive behavior. If she yells/ screams/ accuses or whatever then tell her the conversation is over and leave the room. Do not be afraid to shut her down if she gets abusive.
Whatever you do, do not move out of your house. That is the worst thing you could do!
Hey Jay, would really like to hear from you.