Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/03/19 03:54 PM
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/03/19 04:32 PM
I knew it... here is the anniversary text:
W: Good Morning! Just wanted you to know I"m thinking about you and 11yrs ago was a very happy and special memory for me (heart emoji) I hop you have a good day and I love you.
How do I respond?
W: Good Morning! Just wanted you to know I"m thinking about you and 11yrs ago was a very happy and special memory for me (heart emoji) I hop you have a good day and I love you.
How do I respond?
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/03/19 04:55 PM
It is a special memory for me too. Have a great day and I love you too.
PJ, these are words that don’t mean $hit right now. Everything she said is true but it’s also manipulation.
Remember actions. She moved out. She’s with other men. She’s not in counseling with you trying to repair it.
Short respectful response and move on with your day.
PJ, these are words that don’t mean $hit right now. Everything she said is true but it’s also manipulation.
Remember actions. She moved out. She’s with other men. She’s not in counseling with you trying to repair it.
Short respectful response and move on with your day.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/03/19 05:29 PM
Agreed. I've basically done just that thank you.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/06/19 04:01 PM
What are your 180's?
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/06/19 07:29 PM
Sandi,
Right now I'm working NGS. Read that book and it felt like it was specifically for me. Took it to my IC and creating he is creating 'program' around the issues.
Also working on Shame, intrinsic value, and vulnerability. <- these are tough to do without W.. as she would be getting the 'actions'. But its still possible. Building strong, open (vulnerable) relationships with other men.
As well as being the best father possible at all times. I was not a bad father before but I did leave a lot to W to handle. Now that we are S I'm really enjoying being fully present with them when I have them.
I need to learn to open myself up (full self). In regards to relationship... it was really just about neglect. She needed more help, I should have given it to her.
Right now I'm working NGS. Read that book and it felt like it was specifically for me. Took it to my IC and creating he is creating 'program' around the issues.
Also working on Shame, intrinsic value, and vulnerability. <- these are tough to do without W.. as she would be getting the 'actions'. But its still possible. Building strong, open (vulnerable) relationships with other men.
As well as being the best father possible at all times. I was not a bad father before but I did leave a lot to W to handle. Now that we are S I'm really enjoying being fully present with them when I have them.
I need to learn to open myself up (full self). In regards to relationship... it was really just about neglect. She needed more help, I should have given it to her.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/14/19 09:10 AM
How did Mothers Day go?
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/14/19 03:10 PM
Quote
Also working on Shame, intrinsic value, and vulnerability. <- these are tough to do without W.. as she would be getting the 'actions'.
Can you explain what this has to do with your W? What do you mean she would be getting the actions?
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/16/19 07:25 PM
LH/Sandi,
Re Mother's day: I think it went "well" although I'm very cautious to put any expectations on it. I was invited over to MIL house the day before Mother's day for BBQ (nieces B-day). I was invited by MIL but I'm pretty sure it was approved by W as the last time I was invited by MIL W made it clear that she is not allowed to do that unless checking with W first. I declined the invite. I did not see her on Mothers day at all, sent her a text in the morning just saying "happy Mothers day I hope it's a great one for you" and I got 2 cards from the boys with Gift cards for her, as well as a plant and some cash for MIL (she's amazing help to us both for child care). But I also wrote a long 2 page letter with a simple card to my W. In it it put aside EVERYTHING we have going on and wrote a letter celebrating what a wonderful mother she is. I wanted to recognize her as she is an amazing mother to my boys and this has really never wavered in this. I also wanted her to know that I now am also better recognizing what she has done over the past 10yrs. I did not ask her back or ANYTHING like that stuck only to motherhood and reminded her of good/difficult events in our life with the kids that we both handled well together. I know this is still probably some 'pressure' but for my own needs it felt necessary considering the abandonment and taking for granted that has helped us get to where we are. I'm sure you may disagree but part of my own work is being able to be vulnerable and open up (as well as acknowledge) my issues over the years. So regardless of how it was received I was willing to send it for these reasons (agreed by IC as well). Here is here text response after reading the letter:
"Your letter again brought me to tears. Absolutely the sweetest thing I've ever gotten on Mother's Day. Some of those memories lol... some of the best times of my life and some so scary. And truly am blessed to have shared those moments with you. We went through ALOT and we did it pretty darn good together considering some of the crazy things that have happened, I know this. We are beyond blessed with these boys. Thank you for writing & Sharing that letter today. I needed that, truly. It made me cry and smile and laugh. I love you P!"
Sandi,
I guess I'm just saying that I'm doing some really hard/deep work with IC and making changes. I'm getting to the root of some of my issues and insecurities and just understanding where and what they are has given me a lot of opportunity to make changes in my daily interactions with EVERYONE and it would be nice to share some of this with W. These are some of the things that she has had issues with it would be nice for her to have more opportunity to see the changes - but regardless I'm making them anyway.
Update:
I've been very busy GAL. Boys last football game was on Saturday (until Playoffs in June) so this will be the first week that we won't have any reason to be together at all. I still do not text her at all unless she texts me. She usually finds a reason to text me at least once a day (mostly about the boys) but still EVERYDAY. I do not initiate. I've been doing a lot of golfing, lots of time in the gym (looking pretty good). Have been investing in newer wardrobe. I don't believe my previous wardrobe was to bad at all, but I have added a bit more of a flare outside of my normal style. I think she has noticed when she does see me. She made a simple comment "you look good". I"m taking the boys camping over the memorial day weekend. I've also continued to be the best father I can be. I do not sit around when I have my boys unless they are more interested in playing with the neighborhood kids, but I often ask them to go out back and throw the ball and never turn them down when they ask me.
So overall I think it is going good. I can tell I'm continuing to detach. I don't at all think I'm fully detached but I am getting more comfortable everyday with the ambiguity of how this may or may not turn out. I'm working on defining a timeline in my head for how long I will stay in 'limbo'. I do plan to have one conversation with her in the future letting her know that my 'waiting' is not infinite and that she needs to be doing some thinking about when/if she plans to work on our relationship. I won't give her my mental timeline but I think its important for her to know that I am still wanting this to work but in the not so distant future I will either be pouring my energy into rebuilding with her, or I will be pouring my energy in completely moving on with my life. Again, you will probably disagree but I have said since day one that I do not see myself as one of those strong (lighthouse) people that will still be wanting this to work out in a year. Because of the mutual infidelity I believe its important that I maintain my fidelity for a while but at some point I will begin to work through relationship issues and pursuing others. I'm sure you are right that I won't be ready for a FULL relationship for at least a year - but I personally don't agree it's all or nothing for those 12 months. Point.. I will start dating (slowly). So these are benchmarks that I'm making for myself.
FYI - I don't have ANY proof other than gut instinct based on little conversations I had with her as well as where she is and who shes' with when my kids call her on the nights they are with me, but I do think that GGW has slowed. I have no idea if OM is completely out of the picture but I do believe the one PA has significantly stalled on a physical level. Again I have no idea who she is texting and messaging with - but I do have a decent idea that her 2am nights have slowed. But I couldn't prove any of it - maybe she has just gotten so much better of hiding it - but my kids always face time (not just phone call) so I can see where and who she is with (a little) obviously she could be making sure they are not in the shot - but I just don't currently believe that is what is going on.
Re Mother's day: I think it went "well" although I'm very cautious to put any expectations on it. I was invited over to MIL house the day before Mother's day for BBQ (nieces B-day). I was invited by MIL but I'm pretty sure it was approved by W as the last time I was invited by MIL W made it clear that she is not allowed to do that unless checking with W first. I declined the invite. I did not see her on Mothers day at all, sent her a text in the morning just saying "happy Mothers day I hope it's a great one for you" and I got 2 cards from the boys with Gift cards for her, as well as a plant and some cash for MIL (she's amazing help to us both for child care). But I also wrote a long 2 page letter with a simple card to my W. In it it put aside EVERYTHING we have going on and wrote a letter celebrating what a wonderful mother she is. I wanted to recognize her as she is an amazing mother to my boys and this has really never wavered in this. I also wanted her to know that I now am also better recognizing what she has done over the past 10yrs. I did not ask her back or ANYTHING like that stuck only to motherhood and reminded her of good/difficult events in our life with the kids that we both handled well together. I know this is still probably some 'pressure' but for my own needs it felt necessary considering the abandonment and taking for granted that has helped us get to where we are. I'm sure you may disagree but part of my own work is being able to be vulnerable and open up (as well as acknowledge) my issues over the years. So regardless of how it was received I was willing to send it for these reasons (agreed by IC as well). Here is here text response after reading the letter:
"Your letter again brought me to tears. Absolutely the sweetest thing I've ever gotten on Mother's Day. Some of those memories lol... some of the best times of my life and some so scary. And truly am blessed to have shared those moments with you. We went through ALOT and we did it pretty darn good together considering some of the crazy things that have happened, I know this. We are beyond blessed with these boys. Thank you for writing & Sharing that letter today. I needed that, truly. It made me cry and smile and laugh. I love you P!"
Sandi,
I guess I'm just saying that I'm doing some really hard/deep work with IC and making changes. I'm getting to the root of some of my issues and insecurities and just understanding where and what they are has given me a lot of opportunity to make changes in my daily interactions with EVERYONE and it would be nice to share some of this with W. These are some of the things that she has had issues with it would be nice for her to have more opportunity to see the changes - but regardless I'm making them anyway.
Update:
I've been very busy GAL. Boys last football game was on Saturday (until Playoffs in June) so this will be the first week that we won't have any reason to be together at all. I still do not text her at all unless she texts me. She usually finds a reason to text me at least once a day (mostly about the boys) but still EVERYDAY. I do not initiate. I've been doing a lot of golfing, lots of time in the gym (looking pretty good). Have been investing in newer wardrobe. I don't believe my previous wardrobe was to bad at all, but I have added a bit more of a flare outside of my normal style. I think she has noticed when she does see me. She made a simple comment "you look good". I"m taking the boys camping over the memorial day weekend. I've also continued to be the best father I can be. I do not sit around when I have my boys unless they are more interested in playing with the neighborhood kids, but I often ask them to go out back and throw the ball and never turn them down when they ask me.
So overall I think it is going good. I can tell I'm continuing to detach. I don't at all think I'm fully detached but I am getting more comfortable everyday with the ambiguity of how this may or may not turn out. I'm working on defining a timeline in my head for how long I will stay in 'limbo'. I do plan to have one conversation with her in the future letting her know that my 'waiting' is not infinite and that she needs to be doing some thinking about when/if she plans to work on our relationship. I won't give her my mental timeline but I think its important for her to know that I am still wanting this to work but in the not so distant future I will either be pouring my energy into rebuilding with her, or I will be pouring my energy in completely moving on with my life. Again, you will probably disagree but I have said since day one that I do not see myself as one of those strong (lighthouse) people that will still be wanting this to work out in a year. Because of the mutual infidelity I believe its important that I maintain my fidelity for a while but at some point I will begin to work through relationship issues and pursuing others. I'm sure you are right that I won't be ready for a FULL relationship for at least a year - but I personally don't agree it's all or nothing for those 12 months. Point.. I will start dating (slowly). So these are benchmarks that I'm making for myself.
FYI - I don't have ANY proof other than gut instinct based on little conversations I had with her as well as where she is and who shes' with when my kids call her on the nights they are with me, but I do think that GGW has slowed. I have no idea if OM is completely out of the picture but I do believe the one PA has significantly stalled on a physical level. Again I have no idea who she is texting and messaging with - but I do have a decent idea that her 2am nights have slowed. But I couldn't prove any of it - maybe she has just gotten so much better of hiding it - but my kids always face time (not just phone call) so I can see where and who she is with (a little) obviously she could be making sure they are not in the shot - but I just don't currently believe that is what is going on.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/16/19 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by P_Jam
W: Good Morning! Just wanted you to know I"m thinking about you and 11yrs ago was a very happy and special memory for me (heart emoji) I hop you have a good day and I love you.
I had this too.
Lots of texts and emails like this. They meant absolutely nothing.
I can count the number of ones I responded to on one hand.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/16/19 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by GH31
Originally Posted by P_Jam
W: Good Morning! Just wanted you to know I"m thinking about you and 11yrs ago was a very happy and special memory for me (heart emoji) I hop you have a good day and I love you.
I had this too.
Lots of texts and emails like this. They meant absolutely nothing.
I can count the number of ones I responded to on one hand.
Yup me too. Falls under the category of "I don't want to be married to you anymore, but we're such a great team and should remain buddies!"
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/16/19 08:13 PM
Accept nothing but FULL R on YOUR TERMS. The ILY is just a breadcrumb. There is a difference between feeling a sentiment in the moment, and re-committing to spending the rest of your life with someone.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/16/19 08:15 PM
Yup me too. Falls under the category of "I don't want to be married to you anymore, but we're such a great team and should remain buddies"
^^^^ THAT SUMS IT PERFECTLY
^^^^ THAT SUMS IT PERFECTLY
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/16/19 08:27 PM
Noted. All good points and generally I agree. We'll find out in time. I know the DB strategy is to "move on NOW" but I guess I'm going to give time and space and then give her one more chance to either begin piecing, hurt me again, or THEN move on - which for me means OW/Dating.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/16/19 08:45 PM
PJ,
What is your timeline?
What is your timeline?
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/16/19 09:16 PM
Originally Posted by P_Jam
I know the DB strategy is to "move on NOW"
There is no single "DB strategy".
DB = use what works, reject what doesn't work.
You will be emotionally incapable of "moving on" right now given the timeline in your signature but what you can do is keep contact with her to an absolute bare minimum and GAL - start doing things which enrich you (as hard as that is) and 100% on your terms.
Originally Posted by P_Jam
I'm going to give time and space and then give her one more chance to either begin piecing, hurt me again, or THEN move on - which for me means OW/Dating.
How do you mean "give her one more chance"? You have absolutely no say in that matter until she comes back to you, broken, and asking for another chance.
These situations happen in slow motion. There is no hurrying them along. You can hinder their progression by getting in your W's face and/or grabbing frantically at the morsels of bait she throws at you - just enough of it to keep you on the hook. The very best thing you can do is to get completely out of her way.
There is zero chance of this even resembling a marriage if she is out there dating/banging other men.
You will simply be used like a tampon and chucked aside as needed.
I have never once seen a situation like this recover unless the man took an extremely firm stand against his adulterous wife's behaviour, especially their inevitable attempts to have their cake and eat it too.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/16/19 09:55 PM
Speaking of time. Im glad you mentioned that, which leads me to my next reply. Something hit me on the way home. Your time is important, its always important, its much more important than someone that wants nothing to do with us. Think about this in terms of women's biology, mindset, dating, attraction, etc. Its what they value most. Probably the reason why prior marital history no longer means anything to them anymore. Its in the past. Women want change, and Men want things to stay the same. The only thing they see is a future without us! Here is another thought or two. I noticed the more I GAL and go out which is far and few in between, the W ramps it up as well. Something occurred to me with GGW/New clothes new perfume/purses/make up, spa and nail treatments, etc. Ever notice, especially when you have young kids, people kind of let themselves go? Then just after BD on both parties, people start trying new things, good, clothes, PEOPLE, company, goals, etc, They start going out a lot kind of as an escape. Not only from the kids, but from the spouses. I believe a part of it is self care, and another part of it, whether intentional or not is not only a self esteem booster, but I also think it's meant to attract other people. In other words. Its mentally living the single life while still being married until divorce. Its funny how we all go looking for the fountain of youth. So act single. Think single, do all the things you did when you were single. Not for just a reaction, but just because its nice to feel attractive again.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/17/19 05:12 PM
LH 19,
Generally speaking my timeline is flexible based on things that do/don't happen over the next few months with the exception of a general commitment to seeing if this relationship is salvageable or not. I want to date her again, I want to win back her respect and love (without sacrificing my own integrity and growth) therefore I won't date her without SOME commitment to not seeing other people. I do not expect her to move back in right away. I want the apartment to be as much of plan 'b' for me/us as it might be for her. I will have no way to know if she is/will cheat on me again but she too will have the same issue/concern on my side. We will both be taking some risks that require trust.
My general timeline is to let her know that my "waiting" for her is not infinite and that I will need to know one way or the other (in the next 30-45 days) giving her 3 months out of the house and when that conversations happens allowing about another 30 days to actually respond/answer to what she wants to do. I do not expect to go 'back' to a 'marriage' only to have a basic commitment to start over and do work together to see if we are able to get over the infidelity and resentment. It is essentially and ultimatum to work on this together or not.
I've always maintained that my W does not really fit into some of the stereotypes that seem to be so consistent here with WW/WAS. Of course some of the scripts are the same as well as some of the actions but there are many that are not. Essentially she found out about my previous infidelity at the same time I found out about hers. I have to accept that her pain in this area is real and just as fresh as my wounds. There is no doubt she justified her actions based on years of resentment that has built up, as she did not know about mine when she cheated but that does not change the pain for her. I believe that both of us WANT this to work out as she has made it clear that she can look back and remember many good times. We just don't know how to do it and we both wonder if too much damage has been done for it to actually work.
I also believe that DB'ing and the short amount of time/space has started to give us both opportunity to reflect and wonder what MIGHT be possible both with and without each other. I think we both wonder what we should do. I do not believe she is committed to leaving me yet. She has questions, she has resentment, she has decided the old relationship is over (as have I) but she has not decided that it can't be fixed. I do believe there is a possibility I could be "plan b" and she very well might decide that she still doesn't think it's possible and therefore not worth the work/effort. But I do not believe she is saying/doing the things she is; ONLY to find another branch before leaving this one. Essentially I expect baby steps in the right direction, and if she decides she wants to 'try' I expect MC. But I also know it's possible in the next few months that she may relapse. I actually just hope I don't find out about it. As I do believe that she will either get through it in time and/or finally make a clear decision that she is no longer willing to work on it. I know it's not full DB'ing but I believe she needs to see and feel that fulfillment is possible inside this relationship. I think her biggest fear is trying (knowing it will take a lot of work/time) only to find out she is still not fulfilled. Therefore aside from feeling some loss (of me and the relationship) she also needs to see and feel potential - which I'm not sure she will get by the generally rigid DB strategy. We both need the opportunity to be vulnerable again with each other. Stupid or not, I'm willing to take the risk with her and put myself out there. Knowing full well she could crush me again. I will not do it blindly and without some fear, but I would still do it anyway.
In short, I know it has not been 'long enough' but right now I don't believe that a little pursuit will actually push her farther away. I know it will not solve the issues, but I am getting the feeling/signs that she does actually want to see some action from me towards her. I will take it very slow but do believe I should be backing off LRT a little and reminding her that she is worth the effort to me and that the next relationship will be different.
Generally speaking my timeline is flexible based on things that do/don't happen over the next few months with the exception of a general commitment to seeing if this relationship is salvageable or not. I want to date her again, I want to win back her respect and love (without sacrificing my own integrity and growth) therefore I won't date her without SOME commitment to not seeing other people. I do not expect her to move back in right away. I want the apartment to be as much of plan 'b' for me/us as it might be for her. I will have no way to know if she is/will cheat on me again but she too will have the same issue/concern on my side. We will both be taking some risks that require trust.
My general timeline is to let her know that my "waiting" for her is not infinite and that I will need to know one way or the other (in the next 30-45 days) giving her 3 months out of the house and when that conversations happens allowing about another 30 days to actually respond/answer to what she wants to do. I do not expect to go 'back' to a 'marriage' only to have a basic commitment to start over and do work together to see if we are able to get over the infidelity and resentment. It is essentially and ultimatum to work on this together or not.
I've always maintained that my W does not really fit into some of the stereotypes that seem to be so consistent here with WW/WAS. Of course some of the scripts are the same as well as some of the actions but there are many that are not. Essentially she found out about my previous infidelity at the same time I found out about hers. I have to accept that her pain in this area is real and just as fresh as my wounds. There is no doubt she justified her actions based on years of resentment that has built up, as she did not know about mine when she cheated but that does not change the pain for her. I believe that both of us WANT this to work out as she has made it clear that she can look back and remember many good times. We just don't know how to do it and we both wonder if too much damage has been done for it to actually work.
I also believe that DB'ing and the short amount of time/space has started to give us both opportunity to reflect and wonder what MIGHT be possible both with and without each other. I think we both wonder what we should do. I do not believe she is committed to leaving me yet. She has questions, she has resentment, she has decided the old relationship is over (as have I) but she has not decided that it can't be fixed. I do believe there is a possibility I could be "plan b" and she very well might decide that she still doesn't think it's possible and therefore not worth the work/effort. But I do not believe she is saying/doing the things she is; ONLY to find another branch before leaving this one. Essentially I expect baby steps in the right direction, and if she decides she wants to 'try' I expect MC. But I also know it's possible in the next few months that she may relapse. I actually just hope I don't find out about it. As I do believe that she will either get through it in time and/or finally make a clear decision that she is no longer willing to work on it. I know it's not full DB'ing but I believe she needs to see and feel that fulfillment is possible inside this relationship. I think her biggest fear is trying (knowing it will take a lot of work/time) only to find out she is still not fulfilled. Therefore aside from feeling some loss (of me and the relationship) she also needs to see and feel potential - which I'm not sure she will get by the generally rigid DB strategy. We both need the opportunity to be vulnerable again with each other. Stupid or not, I'm willing to take the risk with her and put myself out there. Knowing full well she could crush me again. I will not do it blindly and without some fear, but I would still do it anyway.
In short, I know it has not been 'long enough' but right now I don't believe that a little pursuit will actually push her farther away. I know it will not solve the issues, but I am getting the feeling/signs that she does actually want to see some action from me towards her. I will take it very slow but do believe I should be backing off LRT a little and reminding her that she is worth the effort to me and that the next relationship will be different.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/17/19 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by GH31
I have never once seen a situation like this recover unless the man took an extremely firm stand against his adulterous wife's behaviour, especially their inevitable attempts to have their cake and eat it too.
This is the type of information that causes me the most concern here. Based on the amount of LBS's that come through here I find it hard to believe that "NEVER" have you seen R "without an extremely firm stand"
I personally know 2 couples that have survived (currently) infidelity in closer to 6-9 months rather than the 12-24 that is consistently spoken about here. My IC also states that there are many that can start the piecing process MUCH sooner. Granted the key is both being committed to the work both together and individually. I respect a lot of the information/strategy here and I think almost all of it is true in a generalized sense. I also believe that those of you that spend your personal time here giving advice (that is often hard to hear) are giving it with the absolute best intentions.
I will stay here and continue to post, I will do so for my own good as a sounding board as well as getting different ideas and views as well as providing a place to document the sitch for others to prove/deny my thoughts on the subject. I hope you all don't give up on me just because I can't do it exactly your way. In time, we will all find out if this works or not.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/17/19 05:33 PM
PJ,
I am not saying I don't agree with some of what you say but what I do disagree about is your timeline. Bare minimum should be six months. I think waiting until after Christmas would be better.
I am not saying I don't agree with some of what you say but what I do disagree about is your timeline. Bare minimum should be six months. I think waiting until after Christmas would be better.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/17/19 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
PJ,
I am not saying I don't agree with some of what you say but what I do disagree about is your timeline. Bare minimum should be six months. I think waiting until after Christmas would be better.
I am not saying I don't agree with some of what you say but what I do disagree about is your timeline. Bare minimum should be six months. I think waiting until after Christmas would be better.
Minimum 6 months for what? Just to have the conversation about whether she is willing to 'work on it/date or not?
Cause I do get the feeling that she WANTS to date me again. I know I take risk here, but I have a hard time passing this up. My only stips are MC (after a couple of positive date interactions not as a prerequisite up front) and that we completely avoid or at least strongly minimize 'playing-house' as a family so as not to confuse the kids and/or opening the door for complete cake eating.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/17/19 06:03 PM
Yes.
Why do you get the feeling she wants to date you again?
Why do you get the feeling she wants to date you again?
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/17/19 06:45 PM
She has always given that feeling and originally that was always the intention of the separation. But I'm the one that followed the advice here and stopped that by stating that I wouldn't have anything to do with her until she basically came back on bended knee and dropped ALL OM, and my actions have maintained that stance. I'm not competing with 1 OM that she is 'in love' with. I'm competing with the attention "honeymoon" phase and feelings she gets from these (cause she got none of it from me). She has told me numerous times "I"m know one else's", I still see myself with you", etc, etc. All stuff that I know may not be fully trustworthy. But through our normal interactions through the kids I'm starting to see these comments in a different light.
I still do not want to date her while she is seeing OM (only so much of this I can control) but I do believe that because she is nervous/scared about whether this can work out or not she's respecting my wishes (not because she MUST be with OM) - as stated above I'm not sure waiting until she is 100% committed is actually the best course of action in my sitch. She's worried there is just too much damage to R - so I believe she needs to start to feel that we too can have a honeymoon phase and that there is reason to put in the work/time to fully R.
Basically she isn't 100% committed to our relationship (not necessarily because of OM) - so she is keeping distance for us both as requested.
I still do not want to date her while she is seeing OM (only so much of this I can control) but I do believe that because she is nervous/scared about whether this can work out or not she's respecting my wishes (not because she MUST be with OM) - as stated above I'm not sure waiting until she is 100% committed is actually the best course of action in my sitch. She's worried there is just too much damage to R - so I believe she needs to start to feel that we too can have a honeymoon phase and that there is reason to put in the work/time to fully R.
Basically she isn't 100% committed to our relationship (not necessarily because of OM) - so she is keeping distance for us both as requested.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/17/19 06:49 PM
To be clear.. I will ASK her if she wants to date again and be fully clear about my no OM requirment. Not just assume and begin pursuing. I will give her every opportunity to stop all of this if she so chooses. But because we have both done the same thing to each other, I do not want to push her away unnecessarily. She has a real REASON to never come back to me (unlike many other sitch's here)
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/17/19 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by P_Jam
I personally know 2 couples that have survived (currently) infidelity in closer to 6-9 months rather than the 12-24 that is consistently spoken about here.
This isn't an exact science. We've had at least two people here (Steve is one) that reconciled in less than 12 months and we've had quite a few that reconciled way past 24 months. I have a friend that reconciled after 7 years apart. But under 12 months is highly unusual.
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My IC also states that there are many that can start the piecing process MUCH sooner. Granted the key is both being committed to the work both together and individually.
And if they are then that is not a WAS situation. There are a lot of couples that go through infidelity without a BD. They choose to work on things rather than split.
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Cause I do get the feeling that she WANTS to date me again. I know I take risk here, but I have a hard time passing this up. My only stips are MC (after a couple of positive date interactions not as a prerequisite up front) and that we completely avoid or at least strongly minimize 'playing-house' as a family so as not to confuse the kids and/or opening the door for complete cake eating.
We give pretty consistent advice here, and some people follow it and some don't. That's your personal choice and more power to you either way. But nearly all the people that chose your path ended up right back here again saying "you were right, it didn't work." They usually just get BD affirmed to them all over again. But sometimes that needs to happen for them to well and truly drop the rope, so do it if you must.
EDIT- paging Maika. He thought the same thing you did, I hope he pops in and let's you know how that worked out for him.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/17/19 07:15 PM
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
And if they are then that is not a WAS situation. There are a lot of couples that go through infidelity without a BD. They choose to work on things rather than split.
And if you go back to my original sitch post(s) I could 'argue' that there never was an official BD. I caught the affair and to me the excuses/conversations that happened were just the excuses/justification/etc.. She is out of the house because of me (not her). Maybe that is why I've been a little confused/different here. To me the affair was the BD then I BD back
and then one GGW happened (might have been retaliatory) and then started some DB'ing (which has done very good at times) and here we are.
I get your point, I might just need another BD. But maybe not. Seems like the risk/reward is not too much to worry about. It doesn't really get worse.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/17/19 07:36 PM
PJ,
Some of what you say has some validity and some does not.
If she didn’t want to leave she would have said something along the lines “PJ no I’ll do anything to save this marriage”.
Some of what you say has some validity and some does not.
If she didn’t want to leave she would have said something along the lines “PJ no I’ll do anything to save this marriage”.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/17/19 07:54 PM
LH,
We already agree on this. I know for sure she doesn't know if she wants to save this marriage. But I don't think I have a right to assume that she SHOULD know this 100%. I don't even know 100%.
I'm not ignoring that she still has a lot of individual work to do. I still believe she doesn't even know why she was able to get to a point of cheating (multiple times). but I'm also convinced she is genuinely confused and hurt. and things like LRT might very well still work (in the long run) but possibly working through this WITH her might also work.
might be naivete but I think that if I had been able to expose her affairs and the necessary details without exposing that I had bugged the house she very well could have said those exact words. She said words VERY close to that and ended PA when she thought I was unaware of the physical part. The bugging/invasion was a SIGNIFICANT factor and I believe was the only actual BD. I'm pretty sure I would still do it again - but as far as a BD list I think this issues is #1, #2 and #3.
Looking back I also think that If I didn't actually find out the truth and confront her she might very well have been on the full R path. If I would have let it go then (when I thought she cheated but denied it and I believed her) - I think she would have felt it was a well deserved wake up call and begun to work it out. Now, I'm not sure that would have been the best path as it would not have allowed me to understand how deep her individual issues might just be. I think our relationship would have changed for the better (at least a bit) - but I'm not convinced it would have stopped her from cheating forever.
We already agree on this. I know for sure she doesn't know if she wants to save this marriage. But I don't think I have a right to assume that she SHOULD know this 100%. I don't even know 100%.
I'm not ignoring that she still has a lot of individual work to do. I still believe she doesn't even know why she was able to get to a point of cheating (multiple times). but I'm also convinced she is genuinely confused and hurt. and things like LRT might very well still work (in the long run) but possibly working through this WITH her might also work.
might be naivete but I think that if I had been able to expose her affairs and the necessary details without exposing that I had bugged the house she very well could have said those exact words. She said words VERY close to that and ended PA when she thought I was unaware of the physical part. The bugging/invasion was a SIGNIFICANT factor and I believe was the only actual BD. I'm pretty sure I would still do it again - but as far as a BD list I think this issues is #1, #2 and #3.
Looking back I also think that If I didn't actually find out the truth and confront her she might very well have been on the full R path. If I would have let it go then (when I thought she cheated but denied it and I believed her) - I think she would have felt it was a well deserved wake up call and begun to work it out. Now, I'm not sure that would have been the best path as it would not have allowed me to understand how deep her individual issues might just be. I think our relationship would have changed for the better (at least a bit) - but I'm not convinced it would have stopped her from cheating forever.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/18/19 12:34 AM
If I listened to everyone here at BD, removed my emotions, really put my balls in front of me like I said I would post BD. Didn't leave the MBR, and then take it back after a month. Told the W at BD to pack her $hit, get out of the house, and go live by her mother's if she wanted space. I probably wouldn't be as escalated as far into my sich today. Ego or not. I'm jumping off the limbo fence , and pulling the trigger on the D. No man should ever allow his W to give him ultimatums. PERIOD. Anytime a woman wants to trade up for a life without you, or with someone else. Cut the damn reel. Get used to being alone. Accept it, make friends with it again. Be comfortable in your own skin. Invest in yourself, and you will attract someone on your level the 2nd time around.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/18/19 12:47 AM
Listen to all the advice you are given , you can choose what you feel if you must , but you are being given great advice, it’s up to you
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/18/19 01:00 AM
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I'm getting to the root of some of my issues and insecurities and just understanding where and what they are has given me a lot of opportunity to make changes in my daily interactions with EVERYONE and it would be nice to share some of this with W.
Share, huh? You guys begin to sound as if one man is writing all these posts. Sharing.......ha! It's just another word for talking. You still want to talk her back.
In my years of observing newcomer LBH's, it's not hard to see their commonalities. One of the top things they want to do is show their changes to the WW. Physical changes are the easiest. Changing how we think is not easy when we are set in our ways. We usually need an intelligent source that teaches and encourages us how we can become a better version (however we determine "better"). Once we are full into adulthood, changing our behavior patterns takes much determination. Not only can a new behavior feel uncomfortable at times, but it's just so easy to fall back into old ways. By old ways, I am referring to unattractive, defeating, unprofitable, and unhealthy behavior.
The hard truth behind why we do the things we do........may come from a professional helping us sort through our experiences, becoming better educated about our particular problem, real life observations, harsh consequences, etc. If we really want to change, it begins with being brutal honesty with ourselves. Examining our true motivation behind our actions is vital to our growth, whether it takes guidance from an outside source or not.
Have you completed the NMMNG book? I hope it will do more than just open your eyes. I pray it will be life changing for you. Changing yourself will probably be the toughest job in you'll ever undertake. You may get upset at me when you read some things I have to say. I hope you'll see it as a challenge, and not just a disagreeable woman. I have recovered from my status of a WW, but I haven't forgotten how she thinks.
Changing how you approach or deal with people and situations in your life or that crosses your path......cannot be narrowed down to a few 180's you want the W to notice. Not only notice, but you want her to be impressed by those improvements. Although most newcomers won't admit it, they want the WW to be impressed enough to change her mind about ending the MR. Anyway........ I think you should forget about wanting "to show" your changes to her. That's part of the problem many men have. They think if they can make changes that will please the WW, it will fix the MR. They actually want to manipulate how WW sees her LBH, or how she feels, and what she does. Forget about trying to persuade her. It only distracts you from work that demands your time and attention. If you don't, then you will not succeed in changing from the person you are right now......to the one you want to become. Do you know who that man is? Is any man okay, just as long as it gets your W back? If not, then forget about sharing your work with her for now. Your work is for you. The M is already gone. So do this for yourself.
Maybe I am not telling you anything new. Okay, but you need to practice consistently until you are living no more Mr. Nice Guy. Don't keep the information you've read in reserve...... to only apply with your W. It has to become your life long behavior pattern. Otherwise, it's just a tactic. Your W is slick, and she knows all the buttons to push b/c she knows you better than anyone else. I'm sure you can imagine various scenarios where you astonish her with your NMMNG behavior, and she realizes she wants to be with you.
She's more experienced at being a rebellious and hard-hearted W, than you are a NMMNG. So, I encourage you to focus on authentically becoming NMMNG.Can you give experiences how NMMNG has changed your interactions with your co-workers? What about the friends you hang with? No matter who the group or individual, people will assume you are going to be the same ole nice guy as always. I would be interested in hearing some of your stories. Nothing will give you more self confidence than when you start living NMMNG and people start responding with respect for you as a man.
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I was invited by MIL but I'm pretty sure it was approved by W as the last time I was invited by MIL W made it clear that she is not allowed to do that unless checking with W first. I declined the invite.
Good! Do you know why I say good? B/c your W made it clear she has to approve it first. If you had attended, knowing your MIL had to get your W's approval.......that would have been a nice-guy move.
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I did not see her on Mothers day at all, sent her a text in the morning just saying "happy Mothers day I hope it's a great one for you" and I got 2 cards from the boys with Gift cards for her, as well
Your kids are 9 & 6. Next time, let them pick out the cards and gift. Just give them a price range.
I'm glad your W was able to respond favorably to your letter. Still, it was pursuit. You just wrapped it in a Mother's Day gift bag, and used the holiday as your opportunity to play on her emotions. Two pages worth of pursuit!
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I wanted to recognize her as she is an amazing mother to my boys and this has really never wavered in this. I also wanted her to know that I now am also better recognizing what she has done over the past 10yrs.
Based on my observations, you wanted to take advantage of the opportunity the holiday gave. You wanted to stir her feelings. I get it. That's what men do when they want a woman. It's their nature to pursue the female. However, I just wonder if you have tried to control her feelings for so long that you believe your own excuses. Look, I'm just saying that if she had not left you......you probably would not have written a two page letter recognizing how amazing she is. It's a nice-guy tactic.
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I'm sure you may disagree but part of my own work is being able to be vulnerable and open up (as well as acknowledge) my issues over the years.
Like I said, you are basically doing the same thing and just wrapping it up to suit your occasion. This time, it comes wrapped in as "part of your own work". If you can't be honest with us, at least be honest with yourself. Maybe you are blind b/c you've lied to yourself for so long you can't admit the truth. Look, I'm all for working to improve yourself, but do it without bringing her into it. You are still wanting to talk,talk, and talk her back. It doesn't matter if it's under the guise of a Mother's Day acknowledgement or working through some mental health issue.........you are trying to talk her back into the MR. It is a nice-guy tactic that doesn't hold up, b/c eventually, action is required. If you are co-dependent, have abandonment issues, etc., then fix it........but leave her alone. If I left a man, I certainly wouldn't want to help him with his emotional issues. After she's moved on, that's not really her main concern. She's done!
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/21/19 12:11 AM
Sandi,
Thank you for taking the time to go into such detail. I’m not sure I can specifically disagree with any of your points. Only that we both know this is a process - both the NMMNG change as well as detachment- and therefore I will still take actions that are motivated by wanting her to see the changes. I will not try to deny that I want her to see the changes but it’s important for you to know; it isn’t the ONLY motivation.
I know the letters (and I’ve written 2) don’t align with DB’ing. But I do believe that in my specific situation both myself and W are LBS’s to some degree. I want to own my % of the breakdown of the M. And I wanted her to know that I could articulate and own these aspects completely separate from hers. I wanted her to know that she is a wonderful mother and that I appreciate what she has done in the past. Maybe “nice guy” stuff but it is authentic. It is not about getting something in return this time. It is not a covert contract. I wanted to say it no matter what happens in our R.
You asked how things have changed for me in regards to NMMNG… It’s not easy to articulate because although there are specific “changes” that I need to make in my actions (and some thought processes) its more about understanding who I really am ALREADY and being comfortable with that! One of the most important issues I have is being a people pleaser. Really needing people to ‘like’ me and through this process I’m learning to understand better who I really am (without other’s perceptions guiding me). I do still have a long way to go, being a people pleaser for so long (like a chameleon) I’m not 100% sure who I really am, but I am actively (daily) focusing on not having to be ‘something’ for other people. She’s only been out of the house for a month and although I miss our family, I don’t actually feel lonely. I’m enjoying the time and space very much. It’s a big change and it doesn’t feel normal yet – but I am enjoying it. As I expected, GAL has come VERY easy to me. I’m growing my social activities and network very aggressively and while I’m doing this – it’s happening much more naturally. I’m not gaining friends by being someone that I think they want me to be. I’m being ME - the currently ‘broken’ separated person that I am right now. The neophyte. It’s not always easy to talk about my situation with everyone but that’s because I don’t want to be focusing on it all the time, not because I’m scared to share it or to let people know who I really am or what is going on. I’m also noticing significant changes in my ‘perfectionism’. In numerous ways I have dropped a lot of this. I’m becoming more and more comfortable doing and being enough without trying to make everything perfect. I’m just way more comfortable doing what I WANT and not what I think others want. I’m much better at confrontation. This site is a good example. I like the advice here but I also like advice that is sometimes opposite so I’m doing WHAT I THINK IS BEST and I’m here giving all of you that information even when I know you are going to disagree with me.
Correct, I probably would not have wrote her a 2 page letter for Mother’s day if she did not leave me. But the letter/sincerity is a 180 for me and so I took the opportunity of Mother’s day to write the letter. Sandi, I do understand that the letters and the ‘talk’ can be more of the ‘nice guy’ stuff. I guess I should just not be interested because she cheated on me. However, I cheated on her as well. I’m trying to be as honest and objective as possible I’m not lying to you or myself (at least not trying to) – but as stated many times before I am also taking SOME advice from my IC which differs from DB. I’ve been open and honest about this. I’m not trying to mask anything – it is MY way forward. Which leads me to my most recent update (which you/DB and my IC) will most likely disagree with.
Had a great weekend GAL spent a lot of time on the golf course as well as going out with friends and meeting 2 different females that I’m confident I will hang out with again.  this is probably what everyone but me will disagree with as a positive thing (this early in my sitch). I got their numbers have we have texted a couple of times.
I also met with my W on Sunday to verbally finalize the expected Child Support, parenting plan, and financial settlement document. Quick recap in my state we were in an ‘intimate committed relationship’ (not a full marriage) so in essence once these documents are signed and filed with the court… there is nothing left legally regarding our R. So if we so choose, we can consider the “D” final. I think the talk went well. She still must sign the documents and she may want an increase in CS – but she will have to get an attorney and fight me on it if she doesn’t accept as is. Financially I believe her spending the money on an attorney and going through this will be a net lo$$. So NONE of this conversation was “nice Guy” trust me on that! I was firm, I was fair, but I got everything EXACTLY how I have wanted it from day one. I did not waiver at all and made this clear. Then I initiated a R talk. I told her that I would still like to see if this R has the ability for reconciliation and that I would be willing to date her again. HOWEVER if we move to this step I would expect monogamy during that time. She understood this request. I told her that offer will not stand indefinitely. I told her that I believe the time/space has been great for both of us and that I think right now is too early to make any final decisions, but I don’t believe she should need too much more time to decide if this family is worth working on or not. I do not like being “in limbo” and I either want to pour all of my energy into us and reconciliation or I want to pour it into a new life. I told her that I have some things that I want to do this summer and I said I don’t picture myself going the entire summer not knowing if I should be planning these events with her, the family, or other people. She asked “like what” – I said: “it shouldn’t matter – you would need to decide first”. She talked about the letters again and how much she appreciated them, she talked about missing me (I also told her I missed her). Then I hugged her, Kissed her, and we had sex! First time in 5 months. I initiated 100% of it but she responded 100% in return. I DO NOT THINK THIS MEANS ANYTHING. I did it because I wanted to. I knew I could, I had withheld all of that attention previously. Mostly to ‘not be a nice guy’ but also I had hoped that withholding would maybe ‘bring her around’. This time, it is what I wanted, so I went and got it. Then… I was about to miss my scheduled Tee time so I had to rush her out. She kinda gave me a funny look (as my time golfing and being a way from the house was a huge BD issue) but It wasn’t my weekend with the kids and the sex was over – so I walked out the door with her, locked the house, said have a nice day and went to the course.  not a nice guy thing!
This relationship may not work out – I get that! But I’m still confident that my situation is a bit unique. I still fear that she WILL come back and work on this but may not be willing to do all the things I would want moving forward (transparency plan, possibly new job, etc) or maybe she just cheats again. But no matter how objectively I try to look at this situation, her actions, I cannot get this sitch to fit into the normal WW box that seems to be so black and white on this site. This does not mean you are wrong, only that I am going to handle this situation how I feel is best, and I will continue to share that information here for you all. Again, I hope you are all still willing to provide your time and advice despite my resistance to SOME of your suggestions. I did what everyone told me not to.. and I did not get BD again. At least not yet, which I acknowledge is still possible. I may be plan b right now, or maybe plan C. Doesn’t matter. I’m not even sure she is Plan A for me. We have so much to work through. I just want that opportunity and I don’t believe she has to be totally broken (in my sitch) to get that opportunity. In my head, I think the most difficult part will be making sure I maintain my requirements and boundaries if and when she does say that she would like to date again, or ‘work’ on it. I am fearful of taking her back to soon, but because she is already out of the house I do not see dating or some commitment to work on it (with monogamy) to be taking her back. Only the first step.
Thank you for taking the time to go into such detail. I’m not sure I can specifically disagree with any of your points. Only that we both know this is a process - both the NMMNG change as well as detachment- and therefore I will still take actions that are motivated by wanting her to see the changes. I will not try to deny that I want her to see the changes but it’s important for you to know; it isn’t the ONLY motivation.
I know the letters (and I’ve written 2) don’t align with DB’ing. But I do believe that in my specific situation both myself and W are LBS’s to some degree. I want to own my % of the breakdown of the M. And I wanted her to know that I could articulate and own these aspects completely separate from hers. I wanted her to know that she is a wonderful mother and that I appreciate what she has done in the past. Maybe “nice guy” stuff but it is authentic. It is not about getting something in return this time. It is not a covert contract. I wanted to say it no matter what happens in our R.
You asked how things have changed for me in regards to NMMNG… It’s not easy to articulate because although there are specific “changes” that I need to make in my actions (and some thought processes) its more about understanding who I really am ALREADY and being comfortable with that! One of the most important issues I have is being a people pleaser. Really needing people to ‘like’ me and through this process I’m learning to understand better who I really am (without other’s perceptions guiding me). I do still have a long way to go, being a people pleaser for so long (like a chameleon) I’m not 100% sure who I really am, but I am actively (daily) focusing on not having to be ‘something’ for other people. She’s only been out of the house for a month and although I miss our family, I don’t actually feel lonely. I’m enjoying the time and space very much. It’s a big change and it doesn’t feel normal yet – but I am enjoying it. As I expected, GAL has come VERY easy to me. I’m growing my social activities and network very aggressively and while I’m doing this – it’s happening much more naturally. I’m not gaining friends by being someone that I think they want me to be. I’m being ME - the currently ‘broken’ separated person that I am right now. The neophyte. It’s not always easy to talk about my situation with everyone but that’s because I don’t want to be focusing on it all the time, not because I’m scared to share it or to let people know who I really am or what is going on. I’m also noticing significant changes in my ‘perfectionism’. In numerous ways I have dropped a lot of this. I’m becoming more and more comfortable doing and being enough without trying to make everything perfect. I’m just way more comfortable doing what I WANT and not what I think others want. I’m much better at confrontation. This site is a good example. I like the advice here but I also like advice that is sometimes opposite so I’m doing WHAT I THINK IS BEST and I’m here giving all of you that information even when I know you are going to disagree with me.
Correct, I probably would not have wrote her a 2 page letter for Mother’s day if she did not leave me. But the letter/sincerity is a 180 for me and so I took the opportunity of Mother’s day to write the letter. Sandi, I do understand that the letters and the ‘talk’ can be more of the ‘nice guy’ stuff. I guess I should just not be interested because she cheated on me. However, I cheated on her as well. I’m trying to be as honest and objective as possible I’m not lying to you or myself (at least not trying to) – but as stated many times before I am also taking SOME advice from my IC which differs from DB. I’ve been open and honest about this. I’m not trying to mask anything – it is MY way forward. Which leads me to my most recent update (which you/DB and my IC) will most likely disagree with.
Had a great weekend GAL spent a lot of time on the golf course as well as going out with friends and meeting 2 different females that I’m confident I will hang out with again.  this is probably what everyone but me will disagree with as a positive thing (this early in my sitch). I got their numbers have we have texted a couple of times.
I also met with my W on Sunday to verbally finalize the expected Child Support, parenting plan, and financial settlement document. Quick recap in my state we were in an ‘intimate committed relationship’ (not a full marriage) so in essence once these documents are signed and filed with the court… there is nothing left legally regarding our R. So if we so choose, we can consider the “D” final. I think the talk went well. She still must sign the documents and she may want an increase in CS – but she will have to get an attorney and fight me on it if she doesn’t accept as is. Financially I believe her spending the money on an attorney and going through this will be a net lo$$. So NONE of this conversation was “nice Guy” trust me on that! I was firm, I was fair, but I got everything EXACTLY how I have wanted it from day one. I did not waiver at all and made this clear. Then I initiated a R talk. I told her that I would still like to see if this R has the ability for reconciliation and that I would be willing to date her again. HOWEVER if we move to this step I would expect monogamy during that time. She understood this request. I told her that offer will not stand indefinitely. I told her that I believe the time/space has been great for both of us and that I think right now is too early to make any final decisions, but I don’t believe she should need too much more time to decide if this family is worth working on or not. I do not like being “in limbo” and I either want to pour all of my energy into us and reconciliation or I want to pour it into a new life. I told her that I have some things that I want to do this summer and I said I don’t picture myself going the entire summer not knowing if I should be planning these events with her, the family, or other people. She asked “like what” – I said: “it shouldn’t matter – you would need to decide first”. She talked about the letters again and how much she appreciated them, she talked about missing me (I also told her I missed her). Then I hugged her, Kissed her, and we had sex! First time in 5 months. I initiated 100% of it but she responded 100% in return. I DO NOT THINK THIS MEANS ANYTHING. I did it because I wanted to. I knew I could, I had withheld all of that attention previously. Mostly to ‘not be a nice guy’ but also I had hoped that withholding would maybe ‘bring her around’. This time, it is what I wanted, so I went and got it. Then… I was about to miss my scheduled Tee time so I had to rush her out. She kinda gave me a funny look (as my time golfing and being a way from the house was a huge BD issue) but It wasn’t my weekend with the kids and the sex was over – so I walked out the door with her, locked the house, said have a nice day and went to the course.  not a nice guy thing!
This relationship may not work out – I get that! But I’m still confident that my situation is a bit unique. I still fear that she WILL come back and work on this but may not be willing to do all the things I would want moving forward (transparency plan, possibly new job, etc) or maybe she just cheats again. But no matter how objectively I try to look at this situation, her actions, I cannot get this sitch to fit into the normal WW box that seems to be so black and white on this site. This does not mean you are wrong, only that I am going to handle this situation how I feel is best, and I will continue to share that information here for you all. Again, I hope you are all still willing to provide your time and advice despite my resistance to SOME of your suggestions. I did what everyone told me not to.. and I did not get BD again. At least not yet, which I acknowledge is still possible. I may be plan b right now, or maybe plan C. Doesn’t matter. I’m not even sure she is Plan A for me. We have so much to work through. I just want that opportunity and I don’t believe she has to be totally broken (in my sitch) to get that opportunity. In my head, I think the most difficult part will be making sure I maintain my requirements and boundaries if and when she does say that she would like to date again, or ‘work’ on it. I am fearful of taking her back to soon, but because she is already out of the house I do not see dating or some commitment to work on it (with monogamy) to be taking her back. Only the first step.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/21/19 05:12 PM
Hey PJam,
Sorry about your sitch and that you're here. I just wanted to chime in real quick after reading through this new thread and say that it seems like you are doing quite a bit of mindreading. A good example is in your post on 5-17 at 5:12 p.m. There are a lot of "I believe she is thinking..." statements in there. I think one of the majpr mantras here is to avoid mindreading like the plague, maybe a vet can confirm this. I know you have not fully bought into DB principles but this is one you may want to reconsider as it can lead you down a painful path.
I notice that you make a point to state that you believe your sitch is unique, implying that DBing "by the book" is not for you. I think it's technically true that all of our sitches are "unique", but there are a lot of commonalities. I would bet that the vets here have seen hundreds of sitches with fact patterns very similar to yours. You have to walk your own path and make your own decisions as to how to proceed, but I think it would be a mistake to assume that the vets who dish out advise here don't understand your sitch.
I am not trying to 2x4 you, I respect your decision to proceed as you wish, and all anyone here wants to do is help you out. Just some food for thought. Also, please be careful and stay protected when having sex with your WW as I believe from your thread she is in an active PA.
Good luck my friend.
Sorry about your sitch and that you're here. I just wanted to chime in real quick after reading through this new thread and say that it seems like you are doing quite a bit of mindreading. A good example is in your post on 5-17 at 5:12 p.m. There are a lot of "I believe she is thinking..." statements in there. I think one of the majpr mantras here is to avoid mindreading like the plague, maybe a vet can confirm this. I know you have not fully bought into DB principles but this is one you may want to reconsider as it can lead you down a painful path.
I notice that you make a point to state that you believe your sitch is unique, implying that DBing "by the book" is not for you. I think it's technically true that all of our sitches are "unique", but there are a lot of commonalities. I would bet that the vets here have seen hundreds of sitches with fact patterns very similar to yours. You have to walk your own path and make your own decisions as to how to proceed, but I think it would be a mistake to assume that the vets who dish out advise here don't understand your sitch.
I am not trying to 2x4 you, I respect your decision to proceed as you wish, and all anyone here wants to do is help you out. Just some food for thought. Also, please be careful and stay protected when having sex with your WW as I believe from your thread she is in an active PA.
Good luck my friend.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/21/19 05:41 PM
Hi Gekko,
I agree 100%. I take zero offense to anyone here (especially the vets). I agree with your mind reading comments as well. I TRY not too but I think its impossible to not try and interpret how some things are received by W. Of course I don't know if I'm right or wrong just making some basic assumptions. What I fully accept is that I could be wrong but hopefully that doesn't change my actions too much as I'm still trying to make the best decisions possible with the information that is available.
I agree with most of the advice on here with the exception of overall timelines and the fact that WW needs to be fully BROKEN before anything can be worked on. My "justification' for this uniqueness is nothing more than my own infidelity in my relationship. We are both LBS and therefore I believe there is some flexibility that needs to be utilized. It's not that I don't 'buy in'. Reading all the sitchs that I've read I too can see a lot of consistency. I'm also fearful that I'm just stubborn - so I welcome 2x4's as well. I'm just trying to be open and honest about how I'm moving forward regardless of what people may think/suggest. But I DO NOT DISCOUNT the different perspectives at all.
I agree 100%. I take zero offense to anyone here (especially the vets). I agree with your mind reading comments as well. I TRY not too but I think its impossible to not try and interpret how some things are received by W. Of course I don't know if I'm right or wrong just making some basic assumptions. What I fully accept is that I could be wrong but hopefully that doesn't change my actions too much as I'm still trying to make the best decisions possible with the information that is available.
I agree with most of the advice on here with the exception of overall timelines and the fact that WW needs to be fully BROKEN before anything can be worked on. My "justification' for this uniqueness is nothing more than my own infidelity in my relationship. We are both LBS and therefore I believe there is some flexibility that needs to be utilized. It's not that I don't 'buy in'. Reading all the sitchs that I've read I too can see a lot of consistency. I'm also fearful that I'm just stubborn - so I welcome 2x4's as well. I'm just trying to be open and honest about how I'm moving forward regardless of what people may think/suggest. But I DO NOT DISCOUNT the different perspectives at all.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/21/19 07:53 PM
PJ,
I don't think based on what you have posted that you can and will deny that your wife has been unhappy for awhile. For her to figure why she was unhappy IMO is going to take longer then 3 months.
Look I agree with you that your situation is a little different then most situations in that it's not because you got fat and lazy or because your a wimpy beta. I think it is more because she didn't feel loved and wasn't get her needs met.
Your situation is a lot like mine. We had sex right up to the week she left and I am talking about all kinds. The main reason why was for the last 10-12 months I never once tried to change her mind or asked her to reconsider. I realized that if we were ever going to be in a relationship again it would be because it was her idea and she had to make amends for all the pain she caused everyone.
If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:
1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you
Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.
I don't think based on what you have posted that you can and will deny that your wife has been unhappy for awhile. For her to figure why she was unhappy IMO is going to take longer then 3 months.
Look I agree with you that your situation is a little different then most situations in that it's not because you got fat and lazy or because your a wimpy beta. I think it is more because she didn't feel loved and wasn't get her needs met.
Your situation is a lot like mine. We had sex right up to the week she left and I am talking about all kinds. The main reason why was for the last 10-12 months I never once tried to change her mind or asked her to reconsider. I realized that if we were ever going to be in a relationship again it would be because it was her idea and she had to make amends for all the pain she caused everyone.
If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:
1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you
Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/21/19 09:00 PM
LH !!
We agree again! I think you're starting to read into my sitch (actually reading me) quite well. I'm fit, attractive, financially successful, anything but lazy and although I agree there are some nice guy issues I don't really see myself as a beta either. Most would not consider me beta at all. That being said; I do recognize that I treated my W differently than most of my outward personality to others. Furthermore, I had a VERY SIGNIFICANT ISSUE for 12 months last year at my last company... it tore me to my emotional core (picture fetal position at home). I was not present for my family at all and put WAY TOO much weight on how my new boss perceived me as well as the job I was doing. I'm sure there was A LOT of respect lost during that time. You are also correct, she did not feel loved and was not getting her needs met. The loved and not getting her needs met probably goes back 18-24 months and then the 12 months of my career issue on top of it.
With all of that being said; I'm confident that she has her own NGS issues. She was never able to articulate her unhappiness (or I wasn't able to understand it) and her stepping out has A LOT to do with her. So I agree with your 3 items listed above. BUT - I also believe the fog is starting to fade just a little right now. As I tried to articulate above... I think those 3 items are critical - I'm just not convinced it has to happen without MC or without being totally broken first. NOW! my fear is - you are actually correct and that she will come back and work on it but not realize her actions are based more on her choices and unresolved issues than they are mine. Which is why I still maintain a little MLC going on. So maybe I am trying to short-cut this. I hope not, but my Alpha male will not sit and wait. Nor do I believe that I will actually become so soft that I begin to ease on my boundaries/requirements if/when she does start working on the relationship. <-- but it is possible and I need to watch this.
Emotionally ready or not... I have incredible opportunities with very attractive females and those relationships are already starting for me. This has helped me detach very quickly in the last 2 weeks. I know this is probably not the "best" approach - but it is probably the quickest way to an end the attachment one way or the other. I know they are not what I want in the long run, but they know my situation 100% and soon enough they will end up helping me completely drop the rope.
I believe that items 1 & 2 are not that far off. I think she sees me as someone of High value now (but not extreme high value). I think the fog is lifting because she has already started to see that life alone is not what she wants. Although I do believe she is confused on how/what it takes to make a relationship work. She believes there is a "Mr. Right" and when she finds him relationships will be easy and create the happiness she's looking for (WRONG!). This is what is holding her back (which is one reason I want MC). Then number 3... this is the big one! I cheated (granted much longer ago than her and I came clean on my own) but she is scared to work with me because of this - which is understandable. So now (right or wrong) maybe you can see why I feel motivated to "talk" to her. There is legitimate reason that she needs to see and be reminded that she should work with me. But I 100% agree that she really needs to want it as well. Mark my words - this sitch will know exactly which way it is going in 3-6 months. It will be piecing or I will be gone.
Yes.. I'm mind reading - my perception is usually pretty keen - but again, if I'm wrong it will not change my overall approach. I feel confident to pursue in certain ways while also maintaining my distance, self respect, and boundaries. I am worth every bit of it! and I know I'm worth A LOT more then what she has going on now. But I do acknowledge that because of the mistakes I made. She not only has every right to move on, she has emotional reasons (legitimate) to not come back. I can easily understand and respect that. Simply because I look at her, her actions, and our ability to reconcile the same way. I'm just 2-3 steps farther down the road in accepting the issues and being willing to TRY.
We agree again! I think you're starting to read into my sitch (actually reading me) quite well. I'm fit, attractive, financially successful, anything but lazy and although I agree there are some nice guy issues I don't really see myself as a beta either. Most would not consider me beta at all. That being said; I do recognize that I treated my W differently than most of my outward personality to others. Furthermore, I had a VERY SIGNIFICANT ISSUE for 12 months last year at my last company... it tore me to my emotional core (picture fetal position at home). I was not present for my family at all and put WAY TOO much weight on how my new boss perceived me as well as the job I was doing. I'm sure there was A LOT of respect lost during that time. You are also correct, she did not feel loved and was not getting her needs met. The loved and not getting her needs met probably goes back 18-24 months and then the 12 months of my career issue on top of it.
With all of that being said; I'm confident that she has her own NGS issues. She was never able to articulate her unhappiness (or I wasn't able to understand it) and her stepping out has A LOT to do with her. So I agree with your 3 items listed above. BUT - I also believe the fog is starting to fade just a little right now. As I tried to articulate above... I think those 3 items are critical - I'm just not convinced it has to happen without MC or without being totally broken first. NOW! my fear is - you are actually correct and that she will come back and work on it but not realize her actions are based more on her choices and unresolved issues than they are mine. Which is why I still maintain a little MLC going on. So maybe I am trying to short-cut this. I hope not, but my Alpha male will not sit and wait. Nor do I believe that I will actually become so soft that I begin to ease on my boundaries/requirements if/when she does start working on the relationship. <-- but it is possible and I need to watch this.
Emotionally ready or not... I have incredible opportunities with very attractive females and those relationships are already starting for me. This has helped me detach very quickly in the last 2 weeks. I know this is probably not the "best" approach - but it is probably the quickest way to an end the attachment one way or the other. I know they are not what I want in the long run, but they know my situation 100% and soon enough they will end up helping me completely drop the rope.
I believe that items 1 & 2 are not that far off. I think she sees me as someone of High value now (but not extreme high value). I think the fog is lifting because she has already started to see that life alone is not what she wants. Although I do believe she is confused on how/what it takes to make a relationship work. She believes there is a "Mr. Right" and when she finds him relationships will be easy and create the happiness she's looking for (WRONG!). This is what is holding her back (which is one reason I want MC). Then number 3... this is the big one! I cheated (granted much longer ago than her and I came clean on my own) but she is scared to work with me because of this - which is understandable. So now (right or wrong) maybe you can see why I feel motivated to "talk" to her. There is legitimate reason that she needs to see and be reminded that she should work with me. But I 100% agree that she really needs to want it as well. Mark my words - this sitch will know exactly which way it is going in 3-6 months. It will be piecing or I will be gone.
Yes.. I'm mind reading - my perception is usually pretty keen - but again, if I'm wrong it will not change my overall approach. I feel confident to pursue in certain ways while also maintaining my distance, self respect, and boundaries. I am worth every bit of it! and I know I'm worth A LOT more then what she has going on now. But I do acknowledge that because of the mistakes I made. She not only has every right to move on, she has emotional reasons (legitimate) to not come back. I can easily understand and respect that. Simply because I look at her, her actions, and our ability to reconcile the same way. I'm just 2-3 steps farther down the road in accepting the issues and being willing to TRY.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/21/19 10:34 PM
PJ,
I think your not taking into account that even if you move forward and end up in another relationship that doesn't mean you won't reconcile down the road.
YouTube Athol Kay "Grass is Greener"
I think your not taking into account that even if you move forward and end up in another relationship that doesn't mean you won't reconcile down the road.
YouTube Athol Kay "Grass is Greener"
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/23/19 05:19 AM
LH,
You are correct. I don't deny that. Especially with such young kids. Staying involved with their sports and Dr. appt's its REALLY hard to even go one week without having face to face interaction with my W and we don't even hand off the kids to each other very often. I do see that as a possibility but I see that in a different context. I also have a harder time believing I will want/willing to take her back at that point. Maybe it's arrogance or more naivete but I believe that once the the rope is fully dropped I will actually be the one that moves on faster - but it is possible.
spent 5hrs with her today due to Dr. appt for S9. Same car, traffic, etc. It was even fun. Some of it is still cause I'm with her and I like that, second when I'm with her I know she isn't with anyone else, but its also an opportunity to lovingly detach in person. Because I was so 'locked-in" to her for a while I always knew I was giving off an "attached' vibe. But that is not the case now. I'm sure it's still not the same to her as when I fully drop the rope but I believe it is close. I can tell by the questions she tries to slide in. I'm having fun being happy and content around her without pursuit. It's all starting to come around.
You are correct. I don't deny that. Especially with such young kids. Staying involved with their sports and Dr. appt's its REALLY hard to even go one week without having face to face interaction with my W and we don't even hand off the kids to each other very often. I do see that as a possibility but I see that in a different context. I also have a harder time believing I will want/willing to take her back at that point. Maybe it's arrogance or more naivete but I believe that once the the rope is fully dropped I will actually be the one that moves on faster - but it is possible.
spent 5hrs with her today due to Dr. appt for S9. Same car, traffic, etc. It was even fun. Some of it is still cause I'm with her and I like that, second when I'm with her I know she isn't with anyone else, but its also an opportunity to lovingly detach in person. Because I was so 'locked-in" to her for a while I always knew I was giving off an "attached' vibe. But that is not the case now. I'm sure it's still not the same to her as when I fully drop the rope but I believe it is close. I can tell by the questions she tries to slide in. I'm having fun being happy and content around her without pursuit. It's all starting to come around.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/23/19 10:07 AM
P,
Yeah it's funny that while your trying to fake it until you make it you think you're fooling the person that knows you better then anyone on this planet.
Just remember anymore letters or "I will always be there for your statements" gives her more time to explore her fantasy.
You're doing great! Keep it up.
Yeah it's funny that while your trying to fake it until you make it you think you're fooling the person that knows you better then anyone on this planet.
Just remember anymore letters or "I will always be there for your statements" gives her more time to explore her fantasy.
You're doing great! Keep it up.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/23/19 07:38 PM
Yeah, I don't think I have anything more to say (letters) and I've never said I wold ALWAYS be there for her.
Because I know she is still a little confused about what she wants I wanted her to know that I have a mental timeline and that my "limbo" situation would only last so long. I think its important (in my sitch) that she take some real time then make a conscious decision to say no (or BD again) whatever happens. In my opinion this let's her know/feel that Plan B either becomes plan A for a while so that can see if we're both willing to put in the work for R. The time/space/apartment can be used for whatever the hell she wants/needs between now and then, but she will need to make a decision relatively soon (especially if she wants to do anything together as a family this summer) <-- which I know she's thinking about.
Thanks to all of you again. I've been very direct (and even argumentative) in a few posts. But its only my "type A" personality that feels necessary to do it "my way". I've had a good couple of weeks and I'm sure I will have some bad ones coming up where; for whatever reason I'll be here looking for support. I hope you're still willing to provide it.
Because I know she is still a little confused about what she wants I wanted her to know that I have a mental timeline and that my "limbo" situation would only last so long. I think its important (in my sitch) that she take some real time then make a conscious decision to say no (or BD again) whatever happens. In my opinion this let's her know/feel that Plan B either becomes plan A for a while so that can see if we're both willing to put in the work for R. The time/space/apartment can be used for whatever the hell she wants/needs between now and then, but she will need to make a decision relatively soon (especially if she wants to do anything together as a family this summer) <-- which I know she's thinking about.
Thanks to all of you again. I've been very direct (and even argumentative) in a few posts. But its only my "type A" personality that feels necessary to do it "my way". I've had a good couple of weeks and I'm sure I will have some bad ones coming up where; for whatever reason I'll be here looking for support. I hope you're still willing to provide it.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/23/19 09:51 PM
We are here for you my man!
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/24/19 04:22 PM
Update:
Kids had their golf league practice last night. It was W night with the kids but I offered to help get them to course as she had to work late.
Really nice day in my area so I was sitting up on the deck having some wine and dinner with friends. She got off work a little after golf ended so I fed the kids at the club and continued to hang with friends and have some drinks. When she arrived the boys were down playing around on range/practice area and so I offered her to order dinner and have a drink (she accepted). From there my friend started ordering tequila (again) <-- yes there might be a theme here We all had a really good time hanging out. This is important as it was her seeing my GAL in person, we were talking about nights in the last week where we had a really good time at the club golfing, drinking, hanging out (while she had the kids). It was so pleasing for me to watch her hear this and know that i'm 100% out GAL without her. Due to conversation going on she made multiple comments about my new 'look'. We talked a lot about events coming up a the club (tournaments) that usually have a 'spouse' night, etc. I have not invited her to any of these and one of the main events starts next week (she has the kids). She asked about this multiple times in the evening, I answered questions about dates and timing but then changed the subject. I will NOT be inviting her to this. She also made comments about taking Golf lessons (it has been something I've wanted her to do for along time) Its also something she has wanted for a long time (mainly cause she's the only one in the family that does not golf - so for the kids) but due to resentment of golf/club she never took any initiative to get it done. When she made these comments I just looked at her and gave her "that look" which she knew meant... It would have been great for you to take lessons in the past, and yes I would like you to take lessons BUT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE HERE TAKING LESSONS UNLESS/UNTIL YOU DECIDE WHO/WHAT YOU ARE DOING. There is NO DOUBT in my mind she knew EXACTLY WHAT THIS LOOK WAS. Anyway...
As the night went on kids were back and forth to the table and course entertaining themselves and she made a couple of comments about staying at my house. I just ignored them. Finally at the end of the night as I was packing up the kids and their stuff she found me, walked up to me and said "KISS ME!". I did, a quick one but a good one. She then said "Hey, so can we come over"? I said: Ok' sure. didn't make anything of it. Came over put the kids down and we went to bed and had sex again.
Of course this was nice, but I still am not putting anything on it (Yet). It's clearly a "step" but I know that this could just be what we are doing at this time due to space/time and no decisions have been made. For me, I basically just 'hooked-up" with someone I know really well. I understand that she very well could hang out with OM over this long weekend when I'm camping with the kids (without her). Fine! get it out of your system. I know what I have to offer in all areas. That grass IS NOT greener over there - so all the power to you.
For me.. this is just a form of feeling each other out, like you might do at the beginning of any relationship. I'm not together with her, I'm also not stopping what I'm doing with GAL and focusing on detachment. Admittedly this might make 'real' detachment a little harder, but I still believe that if I continue to focus on fake till you make it... she'll get the general feeling that although this is 'nice', I'm fine with or WITHOUT her. Shes' getting a little of what she wants, she's attracted to me again, but she also knows she does not fully have me. It's a bit of a tease and I'm becoming OM now.
I have the kids out of town through Monday, then again on Tuesday night. From Wednesday through Sunday night of next week I'm either fully booked with work or in the tournament. So timing was perfect for me to set this stage and then get back to focusing ONLY on me and GAL.
The fog is lifting...
Kids had their golf league practice last night. It was W night with the kids but I offered to help get them to course as she had to work late.
Really nice day in my area so I was sitting up on the deck having some wine and dinner with friends. She got off work a little after golf ended so I fed the kids at the club and continued to hang with friends and have some drinks. When she arrived the boys were down playing around on range/practice area and so I offered her to order dinner and have a drink (she accepted). From there my friend started ordering tequila (again) <-- yes there might be a theme here
We all had a really good time hanging out. This is important as it was her seeing my GAL in person, we were talking about nights in the last week where we had a really good time at the club golfing, drinking, hanging out (while she had the kids). It was so pleasing for me to watch her hear this and know that i'm 100% out GAL without her. Due to conversation going on she made multiple comments about my new 'look'. We talked a lot about events coming up a the club (tournaments) that usually have a 'spouse' night, etc. I have not invited her to any of these and one of the main events starts next week (she has the kids). She asked about this multiple times in the evening, I answered questions about dates and timing but then changed the subject. I will NOT be inviting her to this. She also made comments about taking Golf lessons (it has been something I've wanted her to do for along time) Its also something she has wanted for a long time (mainly cause she's the only one in the family that does not golf - so for the kids) but due to resentment of golf/club she never took any initiative to get it done. When she made these comments I just looked at her and gave her "that look" which she knew meant... It would have been great for you to take lessons in the past, and yes I would like you to take lessons BUT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE HERE TAKING LESSONS UNLESS/UNTIL YOU DECIDE WHO/WHAT YOU ARE DOING. There is NO DOUBT in my mind she knew EXACTLY WHAT THIS LOOK WAS. Anyway...As the night went on kids were back and forth to the table and course entertaining themselves and she made a couple of comments about staying at my house. I just ignored them. Finally at the end of the night as I was packing up the kids and their stuff she found me, walked up to me and said "KISS ME!". I did, a quick one but a good one. She then said "Hey, so can we come over"? I said: Ok' sure. didn't make anything of it. Came over put the kids down and we went to bed and had sex again.
Of course this was nice, but I still am not putting anything on it (Yet). It's clearly a "step" but I know that this could just be what we are doing at this time due to space/time and no decisions have been made. For me, I basically just 'hooked-up" with someone I know really well. I understand that she very well could hang out with OM over this long weekend when I'm camping with the kids (without her). Fine! get it out of your system. I know what I have to offer in all areas. That grass IS NOT greener over there - so all the power to you.
For me.. this is just a form of feeling each other out, like you might do at the beginning of any relationship. I'm not together with her, I'm also not stopping what I'm doing with GAL and focusing on detachment. Admittedly this might make 'real' detachment a little harder, but I still believe that if I continue to focus on fake till you make it... she'll get the general feeling that although this is 'nice', I'm fine with or WITHOUT her. Shes' getting a little of what she wants, she's attracted to me again, but she also knows she does not fully have me. It's a bit of a tease and I'm becoming OM now.
I have the kids out of town through Monday, then again on Tuesday night. From Wednesday through Sunday night of next week I'm either fully booked with work or in the tournament. So timing was perfect for me to set this stage and then get back to focusing ONLY on me and GAL.
The fog is lifting...
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/24/19 05:53 PM
I'm glad you're attracting her back. But having sex with your wife while she's sleeping with another person? Or potentially sleeping with another person? If it were me I don't think so.... Better wrap your stump before you hump! At the very least. As long as you are okay with having no expectations on either side. Glad to hear you're enjoying your GAL time and are living large.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/24/19 06:51 PM
Yep 'Safety first'! Covered! - Literately
I know, it's not easy thinking she could also be with other people, but that could be true if I'm with her or not (same with any other girl I may date). I do think that has slowed (if not stopped) - the physical at least. Still more curious about emotional - but that's only my assumption. In other words I don't currently feel like I'm actively 'sharing' only starting to re-attract and see if the feelings are mutual.
I think I just judge the 'limbo' stage a little differently than most. I don't like being in this situation and do wish she was fully broken and running back to me - but the truth is, if she did that tomorrow it would scare me for multiple reasons. Essentially I'm taking it very slow emotionally by limiting all expectations and just focusing what I want at the time. As I said; I'm SOOOO VERY happy to be leaving this weekend and busy next week. Then neither I nor her can act on this 'momentum" too soon. As I I do believe it's to soon for any additional steps or consistent interaction. I'm just 'playing' now, giving her similar "honeymoon' feelings that she is/was getting from OM. So that she can see it is right here as well, it's not gone. Does she deserve? - No! but thats a different story for later. And I'm doing it more for my needs/wants than I am hers (at least thats what I've convinced myself so far). Risk/Reward! Could get crushed again, or could eventually WIN.
I know, it's not easy thinking she could also be with other people, but that could be true if I'm with her or not (same with any other girl I may date). I do think that has slowed (if not stopped) - the physical at least. Still more curious about emotional - but that's only my assumption. In other words I don't currently feel like I'm actively 'sharing' only starting to re-attract and see if the feelings are mutual.
I think I just judge the 'limbo' stage a little differently than most. I don't like being in this situation and do wish she was fully broken and running back to me - but the truth is, if she did that tomorrow it would scare me for multiple reasons. Essentially I'm taking it very slow emotionally by limiting all expectations and just focusing what I want at the time. As I said; I'm SOOOO VERY happy to be leaving this weekend and busy next week. Then neither I nor her can act on this 'momentum" too soon. As I I do believe it's to soon for any additional steps or consistent interaction. I'm just 'playing' now, giving her similar "honeymoon' feelings that she is/was getting from OM. So that she can see it is right here as well, it's not gone. Does she deserve? - No! but thats a different story for later. And I'm doing it more for my needs/wants than I am hers (at least thats what I've convinced myself so far). Risk/Reward! Could get crushed again, or could eventually WIN.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/25/19 03:48 PM
Quote
Then I initiated a R talk. I told her that I would still like to see if this R has the ability for reconciliation and that I would be willing to date her again. HOWEVER if we move to this step I would expect monogamy during that time. She understood this request. I told her that offer will not stand indefinitely. I told her that I believe the time/space has been great for both of us and that I think right now is too early to make any final decisions, but I don’t believe she should need too much more time to decide if this family is worth working on or not. I do not like being “in limbo” and I either want to pour all of my energy into us and reconciliation or I want to pour it into a new life. I told her that I have some things that I want to do this summer and I said I don’t picture myself going the entire summer not knowing if I should be planning these events with her, the family, or other people. She asked “like what” – I said: “it shouldn’t matter – you would need to decide first”. She talked about the letters again and how much she appreciated them, she talked about missing me (I also told her I missed her). Then I hugged her, Kissed her, and we had sex!
Quote
First time in 5 months. I initiated 100% of it but she responded 100% in return. I DO NOT THINK THIS MEANS ANYTHING. I did it because I wanted to. I knew I could, I had withheld all of that attention previously. Mostly to ‘not be a nice guy’ but also I had hoped that withholding would maybe ‘bring her around’. This time, it is what I wanted, so I went and got it. Then… I was about to miss my scheduled Tee time so I had to rush her out. She kinda gave me a funny look (as my time golfing and being a way from the house was a huge BD issue) but It wasn’t my weekend with the kids and the sex was over – so I walked out the door with her, locked the house, said have a nice day and went to the course.  not a nice guy thing!
Quote
But I’m still confident that my situation is a bit unique.
How is it unique?
Quote
I still fear that she WILL come back and work on this but may not be willing to do all the things I would want moving forward (transparency plan, possibly new job, etc) or maybe she just cheats again.
Do you mean you fear her deceiving you.......or do you fear she'll get back in the house and then refuse to cooperate with your terms? If this is what you mean, let me assure you of how important it is that she has expressed remorse and has taken full responsibility for her wayward actions, apologized to you for the lies, deceit, betrayal, etc. This needs to occur before you agree to reconcile. You can hold out for this, b/c you are not living under the same roof with her. If you start sleeping with her, it complicates things. She'll slither under the door without meeting any of those requirements, and more than likely, she won't be committed to working on the MR 100%, b/c you took her back without requiring her to do certain things, first. There are never any guarantees, but I'm trying to give you some guidance in how to get back the W you once loved, and hopefully, have a better MR in the future.
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But no matter how objectively I try to look at this situation, her actions, I cannot get this sitch to fit into the normal WW box that seems to be so black and white on this site.
Then tell me how your sitch or your W is unique, if that's why you can't fit it into the WW box. Maybe then we would know better what you are dealing with. Otherwise, it appears as if you just want to do what your feelings dictate. I understand this is your life and you'll do what you see best. The reason we try to tell you what to do with a WW, is based mostly on experience and observation. So, if you'll tell us how your W is different, then maybe we'll stop giving the same advice. See what I mean?
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We have so much to work through. I just want that opportunity and I don’t believe she has to be totally broken (in my sitch) to get that opportunity.
Sometimes I will read where someone will tell a newcomer that their WW will have to hit rock bottom before she'll change, or before he can have a successful reconciliation. Well, I didn't hit rock bottom. I did experience enough to get my eyes opened. I followed the advice of my mentors and ended all contact with the OM. I made a decision to do the right thing, and ended the A. It was not what I felt like doing. I did the right action, but I was not broken, had not hit rock bottom, and I did not feel remorse. IMHO, the uniqueness in a WW may come when they feel true remorse. And until she feels remorse for what she did to her H, it's going to take a long, long time and much work to see growth in the relationship. I really don't think she can feel the love for him as her H, as long as she feels justified in cheating on him. B/c that includes the disrespect, resentment, arrogance, selfishness, and the whole nine yards of waywardness. So, if the couple is physically separated, I would advise the H to wait until he is convinced she has remorse.
My H and I did not separate. Although I ended my A, I did not let go of the fantasy, and until I did......loving feelings for my H did not return. It took me nearly two years before I finally asked God to help me feel remorse and sincerely apologize for what I had done. When the remorseful feelings finally came, I went to H with my heart broken from what I had done to him, our M, and our family. You see, I couldn't feel love and respect for my H as long as I kept my A alive by fantasizing about it.
I believe it is so important that a WW experiences humbleness in her heart. It has to break through her willful pride and stubbornness. It has to break her sense of entitlement and arrogance, or you'll still have a wayward W. That's what so many LBH's don't get. They just want the A to end, or just get her back. I can agree with you about some things regarding reconciliation before she is completely broken, but I'm just saying the more she overcomes before reconciling, the better for both of you. But before you take her back, it is imperative she ends her A, and agrees to NC with him. Even if it means her finding another job or moving to another location, then so be it. That is top priority, b/c the M doesn't stand a chance as long as she's getting her "fix" from contacting OM. If she's not willing to leave her job b/c OM is there, then don't expect her to accomplish the other work that's needed. I'm talking about the work she has to do as a WW.
Some things she may have to process is learning how to show respectful behavior, and letting go of everything in the past that she resents, and let go of blaming you. She has to forgive you. Now all of this may not happen at once, and she may have to work through or process some issues with the help of therapy. I'm just trying to get you to understand the importance of not taking a WW back before she commits to doing whatever is necessary to save the M. It starts with ending the A and NC with OM. Don't take her back, until she ends the A.
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We have so much to work through.
Some things we need to work through as individuals, and some things as couples. Once she get completely through withdrawals from OM, then the road is open to resolve other problems. I strongly encourage couples to find an experienced therapist who deals with healing after an affair. But until she has OM out of her head, nothing is going to work.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/25/19 10:09 PM
Sandi2,
I get so much out of your posts. Thank you for sharing.
-SoloFlex
I get so much out of your posts. Thank you for sharing.
-SoloFlex
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 05/25/19 10:57 PM
Thank you, SoloFlex. I'm glad to hear it.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 06/03/19 03:12 PM
Any updates?
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 06/03/19 05:42 PM
Hi LH,
Update should come today. It' will probably be another big one. As you've noticed I've been offline for a while and there is A LOT! to update on. I also need to make sure answer some of Sandi's questions above.
Update should come today. It' will probably be another big one. As you've noticed I've been offline for a while and there is A LOT! to update on. I also need to make sure answer some of Sandi's questions above.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 06/05/19 05:28 AM
It’s been a really busy couple weeks for me and my sitch. Let me first start by answering Sandi’s questions:
Sandi, I believe my sitch is a little unique because:
1. I BD her at the same time she BD me. Both of us were unfaithful and I think this shook her to the core almost as much as me finding out about her OM
2. My W has not had a lot of the WW characteristics… Avoiding kids/family, being mean to me, etc. We don’t really ‘fight’. She’s been polite in all of her interactions since BD. More than me.
3. Because I recorded conversations, I have a pretty good idea where her head is at in relation to the Sitch and OM. Obviously, this still can’t be relied on 100% because there is always an unknown perspective she might have even when sharing information with her friends. But I believe it has allowed me to fully understand the situation and her lack of love/interest in these men. I’m confident she is out seeking validation/love/belonging from these OM. Not yet in love or looking to ‘replace’ me. Per my IC she basically reached an emotional breaking point and went into crisis.
I’m afraid she’ll want to reconcile because its comfortable and because of the family structure but not want to do the correct/necessary process to properly address the infidelity and learn how to build a new, better and deeper relationship. Basically, allowing the opportunity to just end up finding our original equilibrium. I’m also fearful that she doesn’t understand the draw/pull of Limerence and therefore she thinks she can stop OM when she is ‘happy in our relationship’. Before this last weekend I was also afraid that she wouldn’t be willing to have a full transparency plan to rebuild trust (or fully understand the need) but this has changed (more in the update below)
Update:
First took the boys out of town for a long weekend with Grandma/Grandpa. Playing, swimming, bike riding - great time for everyone. It was great to be away and forget the drama and focus on the kids. I also believe W has been taking some time to herself to reflect. I can’t prove this but based on her actions towards me it feels like a reasonable assumption. Also, because we were on a ‘vacation’ the kids were up late and every night when they wanted to call W it was around 10pm or a little later. Each night she was at home alone (as far as I know) but the kids always use facetime (not just phone call) and based on the way she walked and talked around the apartment - I’m pretty sure no one else was there. She also did not look all ‘done up’ like she was going to be rushing out the door as soon as the call was over. She has also said to me multiple times that she is not “seeing anyone”. Based on information here (believe nothing of what they say and only half of what they do) I have assumed she is still GGW or some PA but nothing ‘serious’ in regard to ‘seeing’ someone. But it is possible that she isn’t doing any of it right now.
After we returned from our trip; the kids had their golf league practice on Thursday again. We attended together and ended up having dinner and drinks again with friends on the deck. She came over and spent the night again (had sex again). Very little R talk, but a few little conversations about wanting to try. Just nothing specific about how/when we make that jump to trying/piecing as she knows this takes a specific conversation and commitment (both to each other and to MC). I just let it go as I want her to be sure and not jump into it. I’m not pressuring for this step right now. Just creating a good opportunity for her to think about it, make a conscious decision and then let me know.
I had the golf tournament this last weekend (it was a team event) and my partners W invited my W to come hang out at the club with her during the tournament (I knew nothing about this). Even though him and his wife know exactly what is going on in our sitch. They are the ones that just recently moved across the street. I think she was trying to set this up for a couple of reasons. 1. She does think reconciliation is possible so maybe just creating another opportunity for us all to hang out. Or two, like this board she also doesn’t trust my W right now. So she may have been testing her to see if she would want to take the necessary steps (ask me, get babysitter, etc) to come hang out or not.
This started out very well. After the tournament we all ate and had a lot of drinks partying with a lot of new people (not my normal crowd). She was all over me, holding hands, hugging, kissing, just as if she was my W again. It was fun but odd for me as well as I don’t feel like we are at that point. But I do understand the draw in that situation to feel good and want to just act like old times again. We already had plans for her to stay at my house that night because that is where they babysitter was watching the kids (and because we both knew we wanted to spend the night together again). But at the VERY end of the night it took a different turn. We were leaving the club and I walked her back to her car and she started a relationship talk. She finally broke down crying and was remorseful for everything and apologized profusely. She said she couldn’t believe all that she had done and who she had become. It was great! Almost everything I needed/wanted to hear. But then I had to ‘test’ her. As there are still things, I know that she doesn’t know that I know. She had made a comment that she hadn’t slept with anyone since we had decided to ‘work’ on our relationship. Which I had her clarify what ‘date’ she was referring to. She was talking about when I found out about the PA and confirmed it with her as well as BD her with my own information – So January. I then looked her dead in the eyes and THAT IS A LIE! YOU NEED TO STOP LYING TO ME! Because GGW even was in February. She then proceeded to try and defend this by telling half-truths which was insinuating that she didn’t ‘sleep’ with anyone. What she was saying was true (technically) but what she was insinuating (that sex did not happen) was a lie. So I pressed her again and told her she cannot lie to me anymore. She finally broke and admitted it but now she was ANGRY! I explained that she started this conversation and I have not once pushed her for any details, but that she know my expectation was complete honesty and that its hard for me to believe her remorse when she’s continuing to lie to me. She told me to get out of the car, she was upset because she was trying to open up and be vulnerable and that all I try to do is remind her of her cheating. I explained that this is not true, only that we need to be in counseling discussing this stuff (in a safe environment) so that we can get it all on the table and deal with it properly. She again asked me to get out the car.. So I said “okay” and I did. I get in my car went home, paid the babysitter, went to bed and she went to the apartment. I woke up, took the kids to grandparents as W had to work the next day and I had the golf tournament. After dropping off the kids I dropped my W bag of clothes and all her bathroom stuff off to her at her apartment. I also wanted to discuss the night before as I do believe that alcohol had a part in the negative events of that night based on how much we had both been drinking. It was a much better conversation she apologized again – but I could still tell she was a little defensive. I explained that I just need her to open up and be honest with me, stop trying to hide her affairs and once she comes clean, I then can start to believe that she is focused on honesty. I left it there and went to my tournament.
We have since shared a couple of long emails/letters back and forth. Not the most ideal way to communicate but at this point it seems to be the only way she can open up. She is still VERY remorseful but as expected she is also still very violated by my surveillance of her. Which I understand. After talking to my IC I can understand what her perspective might be. She is remorseful she is sorry but it is hard for anyone to think about having to admit to EVERY infidelity (EA/PA). Although that may be part of the process in the future she is feeling very violated and out of control in regards to what/when she has to share this information. For example: I already know that to rebuild this the right way I need to disclose all of my infidelity details (to a point) but even I feel a bit nervous about some of it (and I actually have the ability to withhold the information if I want to, because no one else know. She does not have this luxury as she doesn’t know what I know and the pressure of being ‘forced’ to disclose it just to “prove” she’s being honest does not feel quit right to her yet.
So for now I’m cutting her a little slack on this (not telling her she has slack) only that I’m not going to NOT make too much out of the fact that she wasn’t 100% honest in this first conversation. I’m going to take all of this as a positive as my boundaries have not changed. Reconciliation requires monogamy commitment, MC, & transparency plan (both of us). She knows this. She has yet to fully accept but she is also aware of my ultimatum – she has a specific amount of time before I turn the other way and actually start living the single life. She mentioned it in one of the letters. I explained that I’m not asking for another 16yrs of marriage. I’m asking for effort to rebuild (in the right way) and if it doesn’t work then we agree to have an open conversation about ending our effort/relationship before running into the arms of other people.
As of now the ball is in her court again. I wrote the last letter/email to her and have yet to receive a response, but I did mention that the last few Thursdays at the club have been great with her around and I hope that we continue that path. I also hope she can see my perspective and at least understand why we need a 3rd party to sift through this mess with us (MC). I’m not sure what to expect… only that I’m okay if it takes her some time still to commit. I plan to now go back to zero pressure. Back to time/space and not try to rush it. I might get a feel for it in 2 days when we are at the kids golf practice, but I will not try to pressure or expect anything. Only to try and have a good cordial time again.
She could still BD me again and turn the other way. If this happens, I will take this as her ‘final’ decision and I will then move in the other direction. However, my gut tells me that this will not happen. So I will stay focused on paving the way back for her (smoothly) and allowing her to make the decision on her own.
This is a lot but I feel like I’m still leaving out a lot of detailed information. So let me know what you think, if you have any questions I might be able to clarify cause some of this is very recent but there were some other events over the last 1.5-2 weeks that got us here. I might be relevant but I just can’t really recapture it all without writing novel #2 tonight.
Sandi, I believe my sitch is a little unique because:
1. I BD her at the same time she BD me. Both of us were unfaithful and I think this shook her to the core almost as much as me finding out about her OM
2. My W has not had a lot of the WW characteristics… Avoiding kids/family, being mean to me, etc. We don’t really ‘fight’. She’s been polite in all of her interactions since BD. More than me.
3. Because I recorded conversations, I have a pretty good idea where her head is at in relation to the Sitch and OM. Obviously, this still can’t be relied on 100% because there is always an unknown perspective she might have even when sharing information with her friends. But I believe it has allowed me to fully understand the situation and her lack of love/interest in these men. I’m confident she is out seeking validation/love/belonging from these OM. Not yet in love or looking to ‘replace’ me. Per my IC she basically reached an emotional breaking point and went into crisis.
I’m afraid she’ll want to reconcile because its comfortable and because of the family structure but not want to do the correct/necessary process to properly address the infidelity and learn how to build a new, better and deeper relationship. Basically, allowing the opportunity to just end up finding our original equilibrium. I’m also fearful that she doesn’t understand the draw/pull of Limerence and therefore she thinks she can stop OM when she is ‘happy in our relationship’. Before this last weekend I was also afraid that she wouldn’t be willing to have a full transparency plan to rebuild trust (or fully understand the need) but this has changed (more in the update below)
Update:
First took the boys out of town for a long weekend with Grandma/Grandpa. Playing, swimming, bike riding - great time for everyone. It was great to be away and forget the drama and focus on the kids. I also believe W has been taking some time to herself to reflect. I can’t prove this but based on her actions towards me it feels like a reasonable assumption. Also, because we were on a ‘vacation’ the kids were up late and every night when they wanted to call W it was around 10pm or a little later. Each night she was at home alone (as far as I know) but the kids always use facetime (not just phone call) and based on the way she walked and talked around the apartment - I’m pretty sure no one else was there. She also did not look all ‘done up’ like she was going to be rushing out the door as soon as the call was over. She has also said to me multiple times that she is not “seeing anyone”. Based on information here (believe nothing of what they say and only half of what they do) I have assumed she is still GGW or some PA but nothing ‘serious’ in regard to ‘seeing’ someone. But it is possible that she isn’t doing any of it right now.
After we returned from our trip; the kids had their golf league practice on Thursday again. We attended together and ended up having dinner and drinks again with friends on the deck. She came over and spent the night again (had sex again). Very little R talk, but a few little conversations about wanting to try. Just nothing specific about how/when we make that jump to trying/piecing as she knows this takes a specific conversation and commitment (both to each other and to MC). I just let it go as I want her to be sure and not jump into it. I’m not pressuring for this step right now. Just creating a good opportunity for her to think about it, make a conscious decision and then let me know.
I had the golf tournament this last weekend (it was a team event) and my partners W invited my W to come hang out at the club with her during the tournament (I knew nothing about this). Even though him and his wife know exactly what is going on in our sitch. They are the ones that just recently moved across the street. I think she was trying to set this up for a couple of reasons. 1. She does think reconciliation is possible so maybe just creating another opportunity for us all to hang out. Or two, like this board she also doesn’t trust my W right now. So she may have been testing her to see if she would want to take the necessary steps (ask me, get babysitter, etc) to come hang out or not.
This started out very well. After the tournament we all ate and had a lot of drinks partying with a lot of new people (not my normal crowd). She was all over me, holding hands, hugging, kissing, just as if she was my W again. It was fun but odd for me as well as I don’t feel like we are at that point. But I do understand the draw in that situation to feel good and want to just act like old times again. We already had plans for her to stay at my house that night because that is where they babysitter was watching the kids (and because we both knew we wanted to spend the night together again). But at the VERY end of the night it took a different turn. We were leaving the club and I walked her back to her car and she started a relationship talk. She finally broke down crying and was remorseful for everything and apologized profusely. She said she couldn’t believe all that she had done and who she had become. It was great! Almost everything I needed/wanted to hear. But then I had to ‘test’ her. As there are still things, I know that she doesn’t know that I know. She had made a comment that she hadn’t slept with anyone since we had decided to ‘work’ on our relationship. Which I had her clarify what ‘date’ she was referring to. She was talking about when I found out about the PA and confirmed it with her as well as BD her with my own information – So January. I then looked her dead in the eyes and THAT IS A LIE! YOU NEED TO STOP LYING TO ME! Because GGW even was in February. She then proceeded to try and defend this by telling half-truths which was insinuating that she didn’t ‘sleep’ with anyone. What she was saying was true (technically) but what she was insinuating (that sex did not happen) was a lie. So I pressed her again and told her she cannot lie to me anymore. She finally broke and admitted it but now she was ANGRY! I explained that she started this conversation and I have not once pushed her for any details, but that she know my expectation was complete honesty and that its hard for me to believe her remorse when she’s continuing to lie to me. She told me to get out of the car, she was upset because she was trying to open up and be vulnerable and that all I try to do is remind her of her cheating. I explained that this is not true, only that we need to be in counseling discussing this stuff (in a safe environment) so that we can get it all on the table and deal with it properly. She again asked me to get out the car.. So I said “okay” and I did. I get in my car went home, paid the babysitter, went to bed and she went to the apartment. I woke up, took the kids to grandparents as W had to work the next day and I had the golf tournament. After dropping off the kids I dropped my W bag of clothes and all her bathroom stuff off to her at her apartment. I also wanted to discuss the night before as I do believe that alcohol had a part in the negative events of that night based on how much we had both been drinking. It was a much better conversation she apologized again – but I could still tell she was a little defensive. I explained that I just need her to open up and be honest with me, stop trying to hide her affairs and once she comes clean, I then can start to believe that she is focused on honesty. I left it there and went to my tournament.
We have since shared a couple of long emails/letters back and forth. Not the most ideal way to communicate but at this point it seems to be the only way she can open up. She is still VERY remorseful but as expected she is also still very violated by my surveillance of her. Which I understand. After talking to my IC I can understand what her perspective might be. She is remorseful she is sorry but it is hard for anyone to think about having to admit to EVERY infidelity (EA/PA). Although that may be part of the process in the future she is feeling very violated and out of control in regards to what/when she has to share this information. For example: I already know that to rebuild this the right way I need to disclose all of my infidelity details (to a point) but even I feel a bit nervous about some of it (and I actually have the ability to withhold the information if I want to, because no one else know. She does not have this luxury as she doesn’t know what I know and the pressure of being ‘forced’ to disclose it just to “prove” she’s being honest does not feel quit right to her yet.
So for now I’m cutting her a little slack on this (not telling her she has slack) only that I’m not going to NOT make too much out of the fact that she wasn’t 100% honest in this first conversation. I’m going to take all of this as a positive as my boundaries have not changed. Reconciliation requires monogamy commitment, MC, & transparency plan (both of us). She knows this. She has yet to fully accept but she is also aware of my ultimatum – she has a specific amount of time before I turn the other way and actually start living the single life. She mentioned it in one of the letters. I explained that I’m not asking for another 16yrs of marriage. I’m asking for effort to rebuild (in the right way) and if it doesn’t work then we agree to have an open conversation about ending our effort/relationship before running into the arms of other people.
As of now the ball is in her court again. I wrote the last letter/email to her and have yet to receive a response, but I did mention that the last few Thursdays at the club have been great with her around and I hope that we continue that path. I also hope she can see my perspective and at least understand why we need a 3rd party to sift through this mess with us (MC). I’m not sure what to expect… only that I’m okay if it takes her some time still to commit. I plan to now go back to zero pressure. Back to time/space and not try to rush it. I might get a feel for it in 2 days when we are at the kids golf practice, but I will not try to pressure or expect anything. Only to try and have a good cordial time again.
She could still BD me again and turn the other way. If this happens, I will take this as her ‘final’ decision and I will then move in the other direction. However, my gut tells me that this will not happen. So I will stay focused on paving the way back for her (smoothly) and allowing her to make the decision on her own.
This is a lot but I feel like I’m still leaving out a lot of detailed information. So let me know what you think, if you have any questions I might be able to clarify cause some of this is very recent but there were some other events over the last 1.5-2 weeks that got us here. I might be relevant but I just can’t really recapture it all without writing novel #2 tonight.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 06/06/19 05:17 PM
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I explained that I just need her to open up and be honest with me, stop trying to hide her affairs and once she comes clean, I then can start to believe that she is focused on honesty.
This has a tone of "double standards". You had multiple affairs and was not honest with her for two years. You even said you have not yet revealed everything, and may choose not to do so, b/c there is no way she could ever find out. Well, that's your choice, but what I'm looking at is a man who is expecting his W to be fully honest with him, while he withholds his own secrets. Did you have an A with someone she knows? Someone close to her?
I can understand if you don't reveal the sexual details of your A's, in order to protect her. I'm not saying it's right or wrong.....that's up to every individual. I have seen cases where the other spouse was not able to get the scenes out of their head, once they heard all the gory details. I'm just not sure if it's "details" or something more you feel the need to keep secret, until.......or unless you decide to reveal it during a MC session.
I can't argue with the things you need in order to reconcile. The remorseful apologies, full confessions, transparency, etc., are actions I promote. I just think you have the advantage over her, b/c of your surveillance intell........while feeling comfortable in knowing she has no such advantage about your own affairs. That gives you a sense of control. You are requiring all this honesty from her, while choosing to wait about your own? You want her fully committed to you, before she hears (if you choose) about your own dishonesty?
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 06/06/19 06:15 PM
Hi Sandi,
You are 100% correct - that IS my point. I will share everything with her that she wants/needs to hear about mine. No it was not someone close to her or a friend. Everything she knows about mine (which is ALOT) I have provided 100% on my own to her. Eventhough I did not want to. I've asking/telling her since the very first conversation that these details should be shared in MC. But becuase she has pressed me have answered the questions she has had so far. There is still a few details (timelines, etc) that I could need to disclose but the "bad stuff" is really already on the table from my side. I have done this show that I"m committed to doing things differently if we move forward. But she has lied to me multiple times in the very recent past about her affairs. "Nothing happend, we're just friends, He was the only one, No way, I wouldn't do that".
So I have suggested that we stop these conversations until she actually ready to have a discussion about them (like I am) in MC. I only pressed her this one night because she brought it all up and then lied again. So I'm just trying to tell her that my expectation for the reconciliation process will be getting all of this on the table for both of us. I do not want to have these hard conversation without MC present to help us walk through the proper steps of getting over the affairs.
You are 100% correct - that IS my point. I will share everything with her that she wants/needs to hear about mine. No it was not someone close to her or a friend. Everything she knows about mine (which is ALOT) I have provided 100% on my own to her. Eventhough I did not want to. I've asking/telling her since the very first conversation that these details should be shared in MC. But becuase she has pressed me have answered the questions she has had so far. There is still a few details (timelines, etc) that I could need to disclose but the "bad stuff" is really already on the table from my side. I have done this show that I"m committed to doing things differently if we move forward. But she has lied to me multiple times in the very recent past about her affairs. "Nothing happend, we're just friends, He was the only one, No way, I wouldn't do that".
So I have suggested that we stop these conversations until she actually ready to have a discussion about them (like I am) in MC. I only pressed her this one night because she brought it all up and then lied again. So I'm just trying to tell her that my expectation for the reconciliation process will be getting all of this on the table for both of us. I do not want to have these hard conversation without MC present to help us walk through the proper steps of getting over the affairs.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 06/07/19 10:38 AM
PJ,
Big mistake pushing for the truth that night but obviously you are aware of it. My guess is that brought back some unpleasant feelings from her regarding you trying to control the situation.
My main concern is this is all happening to quickly. I feel you two really need to come to the realization that you are meant for run another. Time and space is needed for that determination.
Big mistake pushing for the truth that night but obviously you are aware of it. My guess is that brought back some unpleasant feelings from her regarding you trying to control the situation.
My main concern is this is all happening to quickly. I feel you two really need to come to the realization that you are meant for run another. Time and space is needed for that determination.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 06/07/19 06:00 PM
LH,
That is my concern too... so now what? We are both feeling the connection. We have since discussed that night (in letters) and I"m 100% confident she is still very remorseful. And as you noted I'm sure there is some bad feelings about me trying to 'control' the situation. That being said; I think its mostly the invasion of privacy that she feels over the lengths that I went and as I tried to explain above... She still feels out of control in regards to being able to disclose apologize on her own terms (since I know so much). So in General I agree with you - but 2 things: 1, I have since told her I do not want to have those conversations, I do not want/need to put her in a situation where she needs to lie to me again. But made it clear she will need to be ready to disclose and deal with the issues at some point. I will not reconcile without a full accounting on both sides in MC. Second, I have been clear with her that I'm aware I totally took away her sense of privacy but given the situation (I had a pretty strong gut feeling she was lying) and each time I did snoop on her I was right and found more. So it is very difficult for me to say that I would not do the same thing again in the same situation. I don't have "right" to jump to those lengths on any little bad feeling but I didn't do anything like that for 15 years. Only when this started happening. My point is- I'm not in anyway caving to her in this way. It is what it is and we need to deal with it all.
I believe we at the start of reconciliation. I don't put too much on it right now as this can easily change quickly, but I don't really want to go backwards. Shouldn't I just keep my boundaries with MC and deal with those issues there? I do not expect/want her to move back in too quickly. We still need that space - but do I really need to put the brakes on this?
That is my concern too... so now what? We are both feeling the connection. We have since discussed that night (in letters) and I"m 100% confident she is still very remorseful. And as you noted I'm sure there is some bad feelings about me trying to 'control' the situation. That being said; I think its mostly the invasion of privacy that she feels over the lengths that I went and as I tried to explain above... She still feels out of control in regards to being able to disclose apologize on her own terms (since I know so much). So in General I agree with you - but 2 things: 1, I have since told her I do not want to have those conversations, I do not want/need to put her in a situation where she needs to lie to me again. But made it clear she will need to be ready to disclose and deal with the issues at some point. I will not reconcile without a full accounting on both sides in MC. Second, I have been clear with her that I'm aware I totally took away her sense of privacy but given the situation (I had a pretty strong gut feeling she was lying) and each time I did snoop on her I was right and found more. So it is very difficult for me to say that I would not do the same thing again in the same situation. I don't have "right" to jump to those lengths on any little bad feeling but I didn't do anything like that for 15 years. Only when this started happening. My point is- I'm not in anyway caving to her in this way. It is what it is and we need to deal with it all.
I believe we at the start of reconciliation. I don't put too much on it right now as this can easily change quickly, but I don't really want to go backwards. Shouldn't I just keep my boundaries with MC and deal with those issues there? I do not expect/want her to move back in too quickly. We still need that space - but do I really need to put the brakes on this?
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 06/07/19 06:20 PM
Not to mention that I need to give a lot of credit to DB'ing... I was worried for a while but I think me making the decision to have her move out, going NC immediately, focusing on my 180's, and GAL all significantly helped her realize the loss relatively quickly. Also, I've said from the VERY beginning that this sitch was a little different. Was never 100% sure I was right - but with the limited list of issues at BD (and how easily they could be fixed) there is a part of me that is not SUPER surprised. We had some issues in our relationship for sure but it never really felt like the 'punishment fit the crime" in our circumstances. The big question is.. how/why she was able to go so extreme in her actions if what I say is correct and it wasn't really that bad?
I'm also becoming more and more convinced (99%) that she has not gone GGW or even PA in a while. I get the feeling there might have been some form of PA right after she moved out, but I'm getting signs that she has really been taking some time to her self - In other words I don't think she is playing both sides right now.
I'm also becoming more and more convinced (99%) that she has not gone GGW or even PA in a while. I get the feeling there might have been some form of PA right after she moved out, but I'm getting signs that she has really been taking some time to her self - In other words I don't think she is playing both sides right now.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 06/07/19 06:31 PM
I think you keep doing what you’re doing as far as hanging out having fun and hooking up but just make sure you let her come to you at her own pace. When she brings up reconciliation stick to your boundaries and be clear on what it will take.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 06/08/19 04:15 PM
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I think its mostly the invasion of privacy that she feels over the lengths that I went and as I tried to explain above... She still feels out of control in regards to being able to disclose apologize on her own terms (since I know so much). So in General I agree with you - but 2 things: 1, I have since told her I do not want to have those conversations, I do not want/need to put her in a situation where she needs to lie to me again. But made it clear she will need to be ready to disclose and deal with the issues at some point.
You are talking to her too much....... and using too many words. Quote
I will not reconcile without a full accounting on both sides in MC.
Has she actually said she wanted to reconcile? I see all this stuff you are saying to her, but has she said she wanted to save the MR, or it is mostly you doing all the talking?
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Second, I have been clear with her that I'm aware I totally took away her sense of privacy but given the situation (I had a pretty strong gut feeling she was lying) and each time I did snoop on her I was right and found more. So it is very difficult for me to say that I would not do the same thing again in the same situation. I don't have "right" to jump to those lengths on any little bad feeling but I didn't do anything like that for 15 years. Only when this started happening. My point is- I'm not in anyway caving to her in this way. It is what it is and we need to deal with it all.
It is extremely common for a WW to try and turn the spot light on the H invading her privacy, in order to distract from the real problem. I think the less you say about your snooping, the better. I like your last statement, "It is what it is and we need to deal with it". I think by giving focus on your snooping, she tries to put it up there alongside her lying. So if you say something about not trusting her to tell the truth, then she'll go back to not trusting you b/c you invaded her privacy. Right now, neither of you trust the other one.
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Shouldn't I just keep my boundaries with MC and deal with those issues there?
Those aren't "boundaries". Those are your terms or conditions in order to reconcile the MR. I agree with them, but they aren't boundaries.
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We had some issues in our relationship for sure but it never really felt like the 'punishment fit the crime" in our circumstances. The big question is.. how/why she was able to go so extreme in her actions if what I say is correct and it wasn't really that bad?
What do you mean? Are you asking why she was wayward if the problems in the M were not that bad?
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I'm also becoming more and more convinced (99%) that she has not gone GGW or even PA in a while. I get the feeling there might have been some form of PA right after she moved out, but I'm getting signs that she has really been taking some time to her self - In other words I don't think she is playing both sides right now.
You want to believe things weren't that bad, your sitch is unique, that she hasn't been as wayward as some other WW's, and you think the sitch is on the edge of reconciliation. Maybe you've talked yourself into believing it, IDK. You are setting yourself up for a big disappointment if you don't back off with the email R talk. You don't have to back down on what you require in order to reconcile the MR.......but just stop talking to her about it. That is major pressure! If she really wants to reconcile, then let her come to you. You've told her the terms, so now it's up to her to decide if she wants to do the work.
If there is another occasion where she shows up where you all are hanging out, then act as you did previously when friends were together. But don't repeat the R talks & emails.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 06/10/19 05:57 PM
Sandi,
We are on the same page:
She has not said she wants to reconcile yet (as that requires commitment to MC, Monogamy and shortly after beginning of MC a transparency plan). That being said she has made multiple comments - "I like our family, we are a happy fun family, this is nice" etc, etc. AND her actions have all been towards the DIRECTION of reconciliation - but she has not yet committed.
When I say "it wasn't that bad" I'm just implying that the re-writing of history and resentment seem to be diminishing. Obviously it was that bad - but not as bad as she had it in her head when she moved out.
We have been seeing each other a lot recently and each time there is affection initiated by her. As of yesterday I have started to pull away just a little (it feels passive/aggressive) but I'm not doing it for her reaction in anyway. It's because of how much time and affection we are sharing WITHOUT the commitment. I feel like I/we are walking into a 'trap' where she doesn't really commit but yet we still act like we are reconciling. Basically cake eating... so this week I plan to focus on myself more. Also, I understand not initiating the relationship talks - but it is hard to avoid if she starts the conversation.
We are on the same page:
She has not said she wants to reconcile yet (as that requires commitment to MC, Monogamy and shortly after beginning of MC a transparency plan). That being said she has made multiple comments - "I like our family, we are a happy fun family, this is nice" etc, etc. AND her actions have all been towards the DIRECTION of reconciliation - but she has not yet committed.
When I say "it wasn't that bad" I'm just implying that the re-writing of history and resentment seem to be diminishing. Obviously it was that bad - but not as bad as she had it in her head when she moved out.
We have been seeing each other a lot recently and each time there is affection initiated by her. As of yesterday I have started to pull away just a little (it feels passive/aggressive) but I'm not doing it for her reaction in anyway. It's because of how much time and affection we are sharing WITHOUT the commitment. I feel like I/we are walking into a 'trap' where she doesn't really commit but yet we still act like we are reconciling. Basically cake eating... so this week I plan to focus on myself more. Also, I understand not initiating the relationship talks - but it is hard to avoid if she starts the conversation.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 06/10/19 10:10 PM
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As of yesterday I have started to pull away just a little (it feels passive/aggressive) but I'm not doing it for her reaction in anyway. It's because of how much time and affection we are sharing WITHOUT the commitment. I feel like I/we are walking into a 'trap' where she doesn't really commit but yet we still act like we are reconciling.
If it feels passive/aggressive, maybe you aren't doing it the right way. Could you explain this a little more?
There are some who see pulling back to mean they have to be somewhat cold to their spouse. In your situation, I don't recommend that you act cold. Think of it as giving her freedom and/or personal space. Don't pursue by initiating contact, inviting her to go somewhere, etc. Let her initiate text messages, email, calls, etc. You can respond, show warmth & friendliness without over-doing things........can't you?
I know what you mean about the trap. IDK about her, but most of the WW's I've read about,(who are not completely on board in doing the necessary work to save the M) prefer to by-pass the MC,........and resist giving a 100% commitment. Needless to say, they hate transparency and usually resist it. (BTW, some MC are not supporters of transparency.)
I think your W will use affection & sex to slither under the door and secure her place back in the home and avoid commitment & transparency, and maybe other terms you may have in order to reconcile. I've seen it happen too many times!
P-Jam, just continue to remember that she has a heart condition. In order for the MR to have a fair chance, she's going to have to do a lot of work on her heart and get all that negative stuff out. It won't be pleasant for her, but as long as she has willingness......then anything is possible.
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Also, I understand not initiating the relationship talks - but it is hard to avoid if she starts the conversation.
As long as she conducts the talk in a peaceful and respectful manner.....then she probably just wants you to listen. If so, then that's when you can apply validation. Just don't over-kill with it. If she should suggest that the two of you try some other route to reconciliation, and you don't agree......then just tell her. Don't go back over everything you have previously told her you require in order to reconcile. She knows, okay?
From what I have been able to determine in the majority of WW cases, she'll resist giving commitment upfront. She wants to just try dating or living together "to see how it goes". You have already stated your conditions, so all you have to do is tell her (at the end of her talk) that you can't go forward without commitment. Then don't argue or pressure her about it. She knows where you stand.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 06/11/19 05:30 PM
Hi Sandi,
It feels passive aggressive because I have to 'pull away' which is not what I've been doing. But again, it is not to try and get her to want me more. Its more about still letting her feel some loss. for the past 1.5 weeks she has had her cake and been able to eat it too. Which was okay with me exactly what I was willing to do but as we progressed through this time and had the talks/letters I still felt like I was the only one 'giving' - with the exception of her initial break-down which went south once she tried to hide/not tell the full truth. I'm pulling away for me. Cause I do not want to slide into a situation where we are acting like reconciliation but my terms and conditions are not being met.
Update from 5mins ago: As I said above.. I've started to pull away a little. Saw her on Sunday to exchange kids as it was Papa's birthday so I allowed her to take the kids for a few hours that day. She initiated 2 hugs (when when she arrived and one when she left) I hugged back but in a slightly more distant manner that the last 2 weeks. I did not pull her in and make it deeper. I just hugged smiled and moved one. She then texted on monday "Happy Monday!!" I just replied "Thank you, I hope you're having a great one" - then no other texts. I think she was reaching out hoping for some conversation.
Now the big news! This morning I get this text:
W: "Good Morning! Can I ask you a question?"
M: "Well this doesn't sound good if you have to ask. You can ask but I'm kinda at a place where I'm tired of being the only one willing to give answers. So I'm not going to guarantee that I will answer."
W: "Actually never mind. Are you seeing your IC today? If he's still willing to see me at the stage you guys are at will you see if he's open on Thursday to see me?
Me: "Yes! okay I will ask. That is not what I expected to hear from you. Are you sure that you don't want to ask me the question"
W: "No, I'll trust the answer is no. I love you PJ"
M: " Ok. I love you too. I hope you are okay. Have a great day I will email to get you scheduled"
So this was a bit of a good surprise this morning - No??
It feels passive aggressive because I have to 'pull away' which is not what I've been doing. But again, it is not to try and get her to want me more. Its more about still letting her feel some loss. for the past 1.5 weeks she has had her cake and been able to eat it too. Which was okay with me exactly what I was willing to do but as we progressed through this time and had the talks/letters I still felt like I was the only one 'giving' - with the exception of her initial break-down which went south once she tried to hide/not tell the full truth. I'm pulling away for me. Cause I do not want to slide into a situation where we are acting like reconciliation but my terms and conditions are not being met.
Update from 5mins ago: As I said above.. I've started to pull away a little. Saw her on Sunday to exchange kids as it was Papa's birthday so I allowed her to take the kids for a few hours that day. She initiated 2 hugs (when when she arrived and one when she left) I hugged back but in a slightly more distant manner that the last 2 weeks. I did not pull her in and make it deeper. I just hugged smiled and moved one. She then texted on monday "Happy Monday!!" I just replied "Thank you, I hope you're having a great one" - then no other texts. I think she was reaching out hoping for some conversation.
Now the big news! This morning I get this text:
W: "Good Morning! Can I ask you a question?"
M: "Well this doesn't sound good if you have to ask. You can ask but I'm kinda at a place where I'm tired of being the only one willing to give answers. So I'm not going to guarantee that I will answer."
W: "Actually never mind. Are you seeing your IC today? If he's still willing to see me at the stage you guys are at will you see if he's open on Thursday to see me?
Me: "Yes! okay I will ask. That is not what I expected to hear from you. Are you sure that you don't want to ask me the question"
W: "No, I'll trust the answer is no
. I love you PJ"M: " Ok. I love you too. I hope you are okay. Have a great day I will email to get you scheduled"
So this was a bit of a good surprise this morning - No??
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 06/11/19 08:47 PM
PJ - Sorry I'm not fully up on your sitch. Why does your W want to see your IC?
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 06/14/19 04:44 PM
Unchien,
She wants to see my IC becasue... before she moved out and when I found out about GGW event I had started to push/suggest she seek some counseling (she didnt know I knew about GGW) so it was not exactly clear why I was asking this. Furthermore, I have made one of my stipulations for reconciliation IC/MC. More recently I have just been referencing MC because I did not want her to feel like I'm diagnosing her, or pushing HER. Just that to get through this (if we so choose) will require 3rd party help. We discussed before seeing the same counseling (Individually) then also together in previous discussions. So in short.. this is her taking the 'next step'. I'm actually a little torn that she chose IC since I had bee referencing MC for so long, but also a little proud of her because I do believe she has her own issues and 180's to work on before we can actually focus on MC.
She wants to see my IC becasue... before she moved out and when I found out about GGW event I had started to push/suggest she seek some counseling (she didnt know I knew about GGW) so it was not exactly clear why I was asking this. Furthermore, I have made one of my stipulations for reconciliation IC/MC. More recently I have just been referencing MC because I did not want her to feel like I'm diagnosing her, or pushing HER. Just that to get through this (if we so choose) will require 3rd party help. We discussed before seeing the same counseling (Individually) then also together in previous discussions. So in short.. this is her taking the 'next step'. I'm actually a little torn that she chose IC since I had bee referencing MC for so long, but also a little proud of her because I do believe she has her own issues and 180's to work on before we can actually focus on MC.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 06/14/19 06:01 PM
General Update,
Had kids golf practice last night (which is usually where we have dinner and she spends the night). My goal was to be available and friendly like normal but also try to avoid dinner, drinks and staying the night. I did. She showed up to pick up the kids (I had purposely already ate) she had one glass of wine we chatted a bit about her day etc.
Then she brought up the kids event that is today. It's Jr golf Kick-off so they have a big carnival event for the kids. She said:
W: "What about the carnival tomorrow you haven't said anything?"
M: "It's your weekend with the kids I figured if you wanted to go or wanted me to go you would say something"
W: "oh"
M: "Are you asking me to go?"
W" Well do you already have plans?"
M: "no, I can be available if you want to take them together"
W: "Okay sounds good, so then can we just plan on me spending the night tomorrow?"
M: "Sure that sounds good, but FYI I do have stuff to do on Saturday" - In other words please get up and get going in the morning I'm not able to do all of Saturday as well.
So she didn't spend the night last night but she is definitely pushing for more of that. Or at least wanting to keep to at least once a week.
I believe she is feeling the rope drop. I'm not 100% there yet but I am getting much closer. I've been able to internalize that reconciliation will take a VERY long time and we are headed in the right direction, but I'm also very aware that just because we start reconciliation it doesn't actually mean we will survive it and end up back together. I'm dead set on a new, better, deeper relationship and although I do believe I will have a chance to find out if she can get there - I'm not as convinced she actually will. As she begins to come back I'm worried that she's only looking for what she knows is 'comfortable' and not realizing we need a new equilibrium. Because of this I have been able to continue to detach while also starting to win her back. She is feeling this and I hope that this feeling and the IC actually gets us to the next milestone but I'm doing my best to not rush and/or pressure.
Had kids golf practice last night (which is usually where we have dinner and she spends the night). My goal was to be available and friendly like normal but also try to avoid dinner, drinks and staying the night. I did. She showed up to pick up the kids (I had purposely already ate) she had one glass of wine we chatted a bit about her day etc.
Then she brought up the kids event that is today. It's Jr golf Kick-off so they have a big carnival event for the kids. She said:
W: "What about the carnival tomorrow you haven't said anything?"
M: "It's your weekend with the kids I figured if you wanted to go or wanted me to go you would say something"
W: "oh"
M: "Are you asking me to go?"
W" Well do you already have plans?"
M: "no, I can be available if you want to take them together"
W: "Okay sounds good, so then can we just plan on me spending the night tomorrow?"
M: "Sure that sounds good, but FYI I do have stuff to do on Saturday" - In other words please get up and get going in the morning
I'm not able to do all of Saturday as well.So she didn't spend the night last night but she is definitely pushing for more of that. Or at least wanting to keep to at least once a week.
I believe she is feeling the rope drop. I'm not 100% there yet but I am getting much closer. I've been able to internalize that reconciliation will take a VERY long time and we are headed in the right direction, but I'm also very aware that just because we start reconciliation it doesn't actually mean we will survive it and end up back together. I'm dead set on a new, better, deeper relationship and although I do believe I will have a chance to find out if she can get there - I'm not as convinced she actually will. As she begins to come back I'm worried that she's only looking for what she knows is 'comfortable' and not realizing we need a new equilibrium. Because of this I have been able to continue to detach while also starting to win her back. She is feeling this and I hope that this feeling and the IC actually gets us to the next milestone but I'm doing my best to not rush and/or pressure.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 06/16/19 04:35 PM
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So she didn't spend the night last night but she is definitely pushing for more of that. Or at least wanting to keep to at least once a week.
I believe she is feeling the rope drop.
I believe she is feeling the rope drop.
Really? When do you think she felt the rope drop? Was it between the times you were playing happy family, or between the times you were having sex together?
It's called Dropping the Rope........not Slowly Releasing the Rope. But either way, it would require you taking your hands completely off the rope, and I just don't think you will do it. You are too much of a controller & pursuer to take your hands off and not grab for that rope again.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 06/17/19 01:02 PM
Yeah I have to agree with Sandi, I chuckled when I read about all the stuff y'all are doing together and then you believe she is feeling the rope drop, LOL! I don't think you understand what dropping the rope is. Dropping the rope would be no dates, no sleepovers, no chatting and texting and having meals together and making plans to do stuff. Dropping the rope is letting her go and leaving her to do what she wants while you live your own life independently of her. It's you not knowing if she's in an A, and more importantly, not caring.
I'm not really sure what you are trying to do but it sounds like you're trying to "nice" her back. That doesn't work, that puts you firmly under Plan B status. Detach!
I'm not really sure what you are trying to do but it sounds like you're trying to "nice" her back. That doesn't work, that puts you firmly under Plan B status. Detach!
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 06/17/19 04:56 PM
Sandi/AS
I get your point. You might be correct. Maybe I'm not dropping the roper per-say. However, I am really enjoying my GAL and the interactions I have with her mostly revolve around the kids and good opportunity to just have some fun in each others company. What she feels is that yes it would be good and fun if she was around and if these nights continued but I believe she also knows that I'm totally fine if they don't. I'm not bothered if she doesn't stay and I don't push for any of it. I just create and opportunity for her to decide to attend or not.
I believe we are both pursuing in our own way. She has told me numerous times that PA/EA are done. Granted she hasn't provided all the necessary details I would expect in MC/reconciliation but she continues to let me know that those were mistakes and that she is sorry. She is not defensive about her actions she is remorseful. I believe she still has doubts about me getting over the situation and if we could actually move forward, but I don't believe she blames me for her behavior anymore.
Furthermore, as I've said previously I don't deny some pursuing. This is the one aspect about my Sitch that I've openly balanced against the DB'ing technique. I've done so in a very balanced "lighthouse" style. I'm here, I'm ready but until there is some change/commitment from her... I'm NOT WAITING. My life is moving forward as a single guy and she just happens to still be a part of it. I have turned her into my Plan B until she decides she wants to be plan A. This is probably a better way to say it rather than dropping the rope. I've given her the power to change my course of actions but at this point I'm going in a direction that doesn't have to include her in my life romantically.
Update:
She stayed the night on Friday after the kids carnival. After the kids went to bed she started another relationship talk. At this point I don't even remember how she started it. It was a little bit 'heated' but I think we both got some things off our chest. I could have done a much better job validating. I know this cause she to flat out told me. She said that I just need to stop talking and do more listening. Which I believe to be a valid point, but it is hard considering our current sitch. Based on the PA/EA I do feel bit defensive and it's hard for me validate when I don't believe we have properly dealt with the severity of those situations. But after she said that... I stopped talking and just started validating. Just letter her have a voice (regardless of what she said). It really calmed things down and after listening for a VERY long time I accepted and validated almost everything (as they are already part of my 180's) and I acknowledged that she was right and those things I'm already working on. I wrapped up the conversation by saying: I acknowledge your point about listening and I will focus more on that aspect with her. Then I asked if she could please understand why it is so hard? I told her that I'm fully aware of the EA/PA and without willingness to try and 'win' me back in some way makes me feel very insecure. I want someone who wants me, and you have not done enough to help me feel like the only guy that matters to you now. Although they may have ended there is nothing you are doing that says you won't start another one tomorrow. So Until we actually deal with the elephant in the room and decide that we are committed to each other and the process of getting through it - the 'playing house' is only for fun. I can't allow it to be or mean anything more as I will not give her the opportunity to have her cake and eat it to. She validated this for me and acknowledged how it must be tough...
We went to bed (no sex, no kiss or hug). I left early the next morning.
She brought the kids over on fathers day and we spent some time together. She wrote me a very long wonderful letter about what a great father I am ( just as I did for her on Mothers day). It was really nice and was also specifically about fatherhood and good times in the past. No 'relationship' stuff.
She starts IC (with my same IC) on Thursday... We will see.
I know you all have doubts, so do I - but we are headed in the right direction and I do believe that my own personal technique/strategy has been working.
I get your point. You might be correct. Maybe I'm not dropping the roper per-say. However, I am really enjoying my GAL and the interactions I have with her mostly revolve around the kids and good opportunity to just have some fun in each others company. What she feels is that yes it would be good and fun if she was around and if these nights continued but I believe she also knows that I'm totally fine if they don't. I'm not bothered if she doesn't stay and I don't push for any of it. I just create and opportunity for her to decide to attend or not.
I believe we are both pursuing in our own way. She has told me numerous times that PA/EA are done. Granted she hasn't provided all the necessary details I would expect in MC/reconciliation but she continues to let me know that those were mistakes and that she is sorry. She is not defensive about her actions she is remorseful. I believe she still has doubts about me getting over the situation and if we could actually move forward, but I don't believe she blames me for her behavior anymore.
Furthermore, as I've said previously I don't deny some pursuing. This is the one aspect about my Sitch that I've openly balanced against the DB'ing technique. I've done so in a very balanced "lighthouse" style. I'm here, I'm ready but until there is some change/commitment from her... I'm NOT WAITING. My life is moving forward as a single guy and she just happens to still be a part of it. I have turned her into my Plan B until she decides she wants to be plan A. This is probably a better way to say it rather than dropping the rope. I've given her the power to change my course of actions but at this point I'm going in a direction that doesn't have to include her in my life romantically.
Update:
She stayed the night on Friday after the kids carnival. After the kids went to bed she started another relationship talk. At this point I don't even remember how she started it. It was a little bit 'heated' but I think we both got some things off our chest. I could have done a much better job validating. I know this cause she to flat out told me. She said that I just need to stop talking and do more listening. Which I believe to be a valid point, but it is hard considering our current sitch. Based on the PA/EA I do feel bit defensive and it's hard for me validate when I don't believe we have properly dealt with the severity of those situations. But after she said that... I stopped talking and just started validating. Just letter her have a voice (regardless of what she said). It really calmed things down and after listening for a VERY long time I accepted and validated almost everything (as they are already part of my 180's) and I acknowledged that she was right and those things I'm already working on. I wrapped up the conversation by saying: I acknowledge your point about listening and I will focus more on that aspect with her. Then I asked if she could please understand why it is so hard? I told her that I'm fully aware of the EA/PA and without willingness to try and 'win' me back in some way makes me feel very insecure. I want someone who wants me, and you have not done enough to help me feel like the only guy that matters to you now. Although they may have ended there is nothing you are doing that says you won't start another one tomorrow. So Until we actually deal with the elephant in the room and decide that we are committed to each other and the process of getting through it - the 'playing house' is only for fun. I can't allow it to be or mean anything more as I will not give her the opportunity to have her cake and eat it to. She validated this for me and acknowledged how it must be tough...
We went to bed (no sex, no kiss or hug). I left early the next morning.
She brought the kids over on fathers day and we spent some time together. She wrote me a very long wonderful letter about what a great father I am ( just as I did for her on Mothers day). It was really nice and was also specifically about fatherhood and good times in the past. No 'relationship' stuff.
She starts IC (with my same IC) on Thursday... We will see.
I know you all have doubts, so do I - but we are headed in the right direction and I do believe that my own personal technique/strategy has been working.
Re: Complex WW and/or MLC #3 - 07/25/19 12:15 PM
Any updates?