I am in the situation of having received the ILYBNILWY in January after noticing distance and asking. I took notice of the list of deficiencies in my behavior (blame shifting?) and turned on my heel and have made changes. She recognizes this and says she "cant give me reassurances" and that she is "suffocating and needs space". I was mostly keeping it cool for a couple of months, but in March I had a bad few days, fell apart with anxiety and insecurity, and we ended up sleeping in separate rooms for a couple of weeks after she demanded space. Following this, we had a false start at MC when the counselor gave up in the second week. We had enrolled in individual counseling at the same time. I tried to find a new MC but it was met with resistance because she wanted to continue individual sessions for a while first.
It seemed that while things were unraveling things were also normal. She said she wanted to work on it and was still kind of tender at times but distant at times too. Sex is banned and I'm back in the bedroom "with that boundary". It seems her individual counselor is digging up new resentments and things just seem worse. I've been detaching but I think it might be backfiring.
In the background, I'm 95% sure there is an EA with a coworker that probably got hot in December. When asked, this was denied and blame shifting seems to occur. I don't want to snoop and be consumed with it, but any space I create, he is just going to fill.
How do I balance "I want to work on it" and some affection and normalcy before I started to withdraw myself with the now very cold feeling now that I'm withdrawing? Is 180 overkill right now if at least on the surface she seems to want to fix things? When last asked if she's ready to just end it, she said "no we are not ending anything" but she feels checked out since I started 180.
Also, I have not yet read DR, since we share a bank account I need to find a way to get my hands on it. The list was recommended to me by a therapist.
I am posting Cadet's Welcome Posting to you. Please read all of the homework.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Me-65, D32,S31
Oopsy,
Sorry your here buddy but it’s a great place to be under the circumstances.
Couple questions.
What makes you think she wants to work on it?
Why do you believe there is a EA?
Ages? Years together? Kids? Kids ages?
Weve been together for 11 years, married most of them. No children. The reason I think she wants to work on it is that she's mentioned counseling and has said a few times that she wants to work on it and hopes we can fix us through counseling. Unfortunately, these were just words, and all this was said before we had the weird MC situation where he pretty much just said "give her space, no more sessions from me for now".
I don't want to say too much about the EA, other than she has shut me out and opened up to him. There has been some trickle truth I suppose in the past to get me to bless it, but I know something is up. No doubt in my mind. I doubt it's physical, the guy has too much to lose IMO.
We also have a very storied past. We weathered a LOT of hardship together early on, so much so that we never had a true romance, if you will. I was her rock for a long time. It took its toll on me.
I am in the situation of having received the ILYBNILWY in January after noticing distance and asking. I took notice of the list of deficiencies in my behavior (blame shifting?) and turned on my heel and have made changes. She recognizes this and says she "cant give me reassurances" and that she is "suffocating and needs space". I was mostly keeping it cool for a couple of months, but in March I had a bad few days, fell apart with anxiety and insecurity, and we ended up sleeping in separate rooms for a couple of weeks after she demanded space. Following this, we had a false start at MC when the counselor gave up in the second week. We had enrolled in individual counseling at the same time. I tried to find a new MC but it was met with resistance because she wanted to continue individual sessions for a while first.
It seemed that while things were unraveling things were also normal. She said she wanted to work on it and was still kind of tender at times but distant at times too. Sex is banned and I'm back in the bedroom "with that boundary". It seems her individual counselor is digging up new resentments and things just seem worse. I've been detaching but I think it might be backfiring.
In the background, I'm 95% sure there is an EA with a coworker that probably got hot in December. When asked, this was denied and blame shifting seems to occur. I don't want to snoop and be consumed with it, but any space I create, he is just going to fill.
How do I balance "I want to work on it" and some affection and normalcy before I started to withdraw myself with the now very cold feeling now that I'm withdrawing? Is 180 overkill right now if at least on the surface she seems to want to fix things? When last asked if she's ready to just end it, she said "no we are not ending anything" but she feels checked out since I started 180.
Also, I have not yet read DR, since we share a bank account I need to find a way to get my hands on it. The list was recommended to me by a therapist.
So oops, right off the bat I feel that you are confused about a few concepts. Please read all of cadet's links, because it helps clarify. But based on your initial post here are some things that might help:
180s are about YOU improving and growing. You "180" on bad behaviors that contributed to your current situation. None of us are perfect. Heck, read my threads and you'll see I was a complete jerk for many years leading up to my W's EA and wanting a D. So 180s are FOR YOU. If she sees and likes the changes, great. But you need to become a better person for you and your future new relationship (because your old one is dead), whether that is with her or someone else.
Loving detachment is not cold. If you are being cold and withdrawn then you are doing it wrong. Detachment is being present, pleased, upbeat. You are confident and secure in YOURSELF, regardless of your sitch. But most of all, you no longer REACT emotionally to her words and actions. (This is where validation comes in, please read the validation thread.) You listen, and validate. You do not react. You do not get upset. You do get sad. She could tell you she had a gangbang with 100 men, and it would roll off your back like water off a duck. Detachment is hard. Work at it, but don't expect perfection out of the gate. Those that do detachment well are always amazed at the results.
I see nothing about GAL. You seem to be sitting home hanging on her every word and action. STOP IT. Get out and Get A Life. Be as busy as you can be. If you have kids, every minute you are not with them you are busy. Learn new things. Renew old (same sex!) friendships. Pick up forgotten and abandoned hobbies. Stay active. Work out. But do not sit and stew. And certainly stop following her around like a puppy dog.
Your #1 goal right now is to remove ALL pressure and pursuit. She has asked for space, give it to her. That doesn't mean leaving the house or the MBR. Certainly she is welcome to if she wants to, you couldn't stop her if you wanted to. But in absence of physical space (though if you GAL that will happen naturally), give her emotional and mental space. DO NOT INITIATE R TALKS!! If she does, listen and validate. Before you do anything ask yourself if that actions will apply pressure or seem like pursuit to her. If yes, then don't do it.
Above all, there is no magic bullet. You are not going to fix this with one statement verbally, or with one action. You need to detach, GAL and 180 (please please read DR!), and give it TIME! And when we say time we do not mean hours...days....weeks....months. There is no deadline on this. Just keep DBing, and giving her space and let time hopefully bring her to her senses.
Also, remember, you are going to be okay. No matter what happens. Once you realize that there is life after no matter what happens between the two of you, you will be in a much better and happier and healthier place. No one should ever depend on another person for their happiness. Even your spouse.
Hang in there. You will survive.
Oops,
We have a big saying around here. ACTIONS not words. She’s definitely not working on it and you can’t reconnect while she is opening up to another man.
If she wants space give her space! Give her more space then she will ever imagine. Right now the other dude is meeting her emotional needs while you are doing all the husbandly duties minus the sex. Not a good place to right now. How can we change the dynamics?
Are you currently in super husband mode and doing all the chores, cleaning shopping? If so this needs to stop.
This chump at work I assume is married with children?
Thank you Steve. I actually have been GAL. Spending time with friends, on hobbies, etc. I've always been pretty independent, actually, so I'm just kind of returning to that and then some (more social things). I have a lot of great friends and family, and I'm in the best shape I've been in in a decade now.
I see what you mean about the detachment. I haven't exactly been cold, but I could be a bit more fun, certainly.
My dilemma right now is how to handle this EA. She might not know it's an EA. My conception of it from what I can gather without snooping is that they have long talks/texting sessions and just talk about everything under the sun in a very carefree fun and flirty way. This is partly from just watching her. Shes glued to the phone and always looks happy. Shes basically done deeply/excitedly talking to me about her life and interests and instead does so with him. They also work out together.
From what I can tell, Sandi has different advice for WW vs WAW. I think this kind of started as a WAW and the EA turned a tinderbox into a fire. So her issues with me were rooted in truth, and I needed to change, but she's now using it as rocket fuel and getting her needs met from him.
Going to try to get my hands on DR as well for now.
My dilemma right now is how to handle this EA. She might not know it's an EA. My conception of it from what I can gather without snooping is that they have long talks/texting sessions and just talk about everything under the sun in a very carefree fun and flirty way. This is partly from just watching her. Shes glued to the phone and always looks happy. Shes basically done deeply/excitedly talking to me about her life and interests and instead does so with him. They also work out together.
Is handling the EA pressure and pursuit? Or is it giving her space? That answers your question. Control what you can control and she ain't it. Even if you confront she'll just go deeper undercover. So focus on GAL, 180s, and detachment.
Sometimes in DBing the best thing to do is nothing.
Oh, and in my W's first EA in 2005, I knew something was going on but I didn't know what. After finding DBing I started to 180 on my bad behaviors. She actually resented that. She told her AP and some friends she confided in "I am finally happy and NOW he is trying!" But this is why you focus on YOU for DBing. Do not DB trying to change or control her with it. It will backfire everytime.
Sorry to highjack the thread for a sec. So, Steve, my H is no longer living at home, lives with OW. He came to the house over the weekend, brought OW. She at least didn't come in. I didn't say anything since I was so surprised at the moment. Are you saying to not say anything to him about it? Just basically that it is disrespectful. Is that pressure and pursuit?
Sorry to highjack the thread for a sec. So, Steve, my H is no longer living at home, lives with OW. He came to the house over the weekend, brought OW. She at least didn't come in. I didn't say anything since I was so surprised at the moment. Are you saying to not say anything to him about it? Just basically that it is disrespectful. Is that pressure and pursuit?
What would you consider saying to him? And what result are you looking for? In general, until things change, you should switch into a coparenting relationship with him. Unless there is something to be accomplished, I would say don't say anything. She sat in the car right? I am sure you would prefer she disappear off the face of the earth, but that's not going to happen.
Oops,
We have a big saying around here. ACTIONS not words. She’s definitely not working on it and you can’t reconnect while she is opening up to another man.
If she wants space give her space! Give her more space then she will ever imagine. Right now the other dude is meeting her emotional needs while you are doing all the husbandly duties minus the sex. Not a good place to right now. How can we change the dynamics?
Are you currently in super husband mode and doing all the chores, cleaning shopping? If so this needs to stop.
This chump at work I assume is married with children?
Thanks - you are right. For all I know now she is struggling to wring herself from it, but I'm not going to ask.
He's married without children but from what I gather is planning on children.
I've backed off from being super husband and am basically out of the house doing something I want to do or with people I want to be with most of the time now. She's definitely getting loads more space.
My dilemma right now is how to handle this EA. She might not know it's an EA. My conception of it from what I can gather without snooping is that they have long talks/texting sessions and just talk about everything under the sun in a very carefree fun and flirty way. This is partly from just watching her. Shes glued to the phone and always looks happy. Shes basically done deeply/excitedly talking to me about her life and interests and instead does so with him. They also work out together.
Sounds like my X wife. I made a mistake by not setting a boundary on this disrespectful behavior.
Read this thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2039619&page=allEverything that works is counter-intuitive.
My mantras:
"I do not share my woman with other men."
"I do not want to be with a woman who does not want to be with me"
Give her two choices that you are perfectly fine with. Him or me. You do not need to do this now, but this is the mindset you need to get to. The sooner the better.
W:"He is just a friend"
H:"We both know that is not the truth"
W:Bla bla blal bla"
"Here is what I need in my marriage___________, ___________, _____________, and________________. If you can't respect that then I have decided that I can't be married to you."
The blanks are the non-negotiable issues. "I won't share you with another man."Joint decisions on how we spend our money."
You then need ways to verify these issues. Transparency: access to each others e-mail, FB, cell phone etc. Weekly discussions about your finances. Find solutions that work for you two.
You steer clear of the emotions by thinking thru the issues. Calm, cool and collected. Lead on brother.
She recognizes this and says she "cant give me reassurances" and that she is "suffocating and needs space".
That's pretty typical. She won't believe your changes at first, she needs to see them over a long period of time before she believes they are real and not just tricks to get her back.
I was mostly keeping it cool for a couple of months, but in March I had a bad few days, fell apart with anxiety and insecurity, and we ended up sleeping in separate rooms for a couple of weeks after she demanded space.
You're back in the MBR now? STAY THERE. Next time she asks for space remind her that you are doing nothing to stop her from taking all the space she wants. She can sleep on the floor, in another room, in the closet, the bathtub or in the backyard. Not your concern. YOU STAY THERE. This is part of reestablishing your manhood after having much of it stripped away after BD.
Following this, we had a false start at MC when the counselor gave up in the second week. We had enrolled in individual counseling at the same time. I tried to find a new MC but it was met with resistance because she wanted to continue individual sessions for a while first.
Stick with IC. Discontinue MC. Most WAS's do it to check off their list of "things I tried to save the M but only proved it was already over".
In the background, I'm 95% sure there is an EA with a coworker that probably got hot in December. When asked, this was denied and blame shifting seems to occur. I don't want to snoop and be consumed with it, but any space I create, he is just going to fill.
No, he is going to fill all the space no matter what you do. You've been fired as H, you are no longer her go-to for emotional support. Don't fall into the trap of trying to prove yourself better than OM, because that will just look sad, needy and desperate to her. Your attitude should be "I am too good for this lying cheater, I will work on myself and leave her to the mess she is making unless and until she fully repents of it".
How do I balance "I want to work on it" and some affection and normalcy before I started to withdraw myself with the now very cold feeling now that I'm withdrawing?
You don't work on "it" you work on YOU. And affection is definitely off the menu for now, and probably for months. As far as withdrawing, I don't think you understand the concept of detachment. It's not withdrawing, it's to stop pursuing. Read the book.
Also, I have not yet read DR, since we share a bank account I need to find a way to get my hands on it.
Go to the bookstore and pay cash. You need it. This forum is to help you with the concepts in Michele's books, but it is not a replacement for the books and for DB coaching.
Thanks for the reply! Finally found a place that has it in stock.
By "working on it" I meant that she has said that, sorry if that was unclear. Her words have indicated that she wants to try, but I assume I should ignore that.
Words are just that; words. Ignore them.
Actions will show you if she wants to work on it.
In the meantime, work on yourself, read that book, take good notes. Remember, there are lots of issues that contributed to this on both sides. You can work on yours. You won’t fix all of them, and you certainly won’t fix them in a day or two.
How does one eat an elephant? One bite at a time.
Gonnatake some time to eat that proverbial elephant. One problem at a time. Work on yourself. You can do it!
She keeps saying "I love you" without me saying it first when leaving the house, I'd been saying "I love you too" but I didn't today. She said it 3 times in 5 minutes. If only there was any other sign that she wasn't just stringing me along!
In a moment of weakness yesterday I loved on her. Probably shouldn't have.
But shes also 99% having an EA so...I wish there was some way to prove and confront just to get all of this over with. I don't have any kind of proof that could be considered "rock solid" and I don't want to lose myself in the black hole of snooping, and sadly not having confrontation or divorce-court level legal proof is limbo.
The relationship history rewriting is really disappointing too now that I see the holes left behind where she used to obviously love me. That's the worst part. She did love me and was attracted to me even though she says she isn't or maybe never was. Limerence and the history rewrite are driving us into the ground.
All of our WASs rewrote history. All of them said they didn't love us and maybe never did. You are fixating way too much on her words. Remember believe nothing they say, and only half of what they do. And that includes both positive and negative things. You cannot react emotionally to anything she says or does. They is why we say detach. Detachment is the only successful way forward.
How is your GAL going?
GAL is moving full steam ahead actually - that couldn't really be better.
She recognizes this and says she "cant give me reassurances" and that she is "suffocating and needs space". I was mostly keeping it cool for a couple of months, but in March I had a bad few days, fell apart with anxiety and insecurity
The best advice I could give you from the viewpoint of a recovered wayward W, is to give her all the space she wants.....and then give some more. You must turn lose of the emotional rope you've tied to her. Find yourself without her. Don't depend on her to make you feel secure, or like a confident man, b/c it won't happen. You can't depend on what she says or does. Not at this time. She has lost respect for you b/c you won't lead and/or stand up to her like a man. You let her say/do things that have a hint (or maybe more) of disrespect for you. You probably try to cover for her, blame yourself, reason, etc. Maybe she even bullies a little bit, has a sense of entitlement, and/or a strong personality. You suffocate her with your constant presence (in person or by texting), always needing that reassurance from her. Needing to hear from her while at work, see what she's doing, where, when, how.......all the details. I really hate to hear about your anxiety issues. Are you seeking help for it?
Here's the thing. When a man has a WW, he has to show strength.......if he ever wants her back. By strength, I'm talking alpha male who does not accept disrespect from his W. The foundation of waywardness is disrespect. So for now, you focus on getting yourself stronger & grow bigger b@lls (nothing personal, it's my message to all who have a wayward W). You don't have to be mean, hateful, vindictive, cold, etc. But you have to be firm. You have to set boundaries. Know your own value. Know your life principles/standards. Don't compromise your integrity. And.....don't act on fear.
In the background, I'm 95% sure there is an EA with a coworker that probably got hot in December. When asked, this was denied and blame shifting seems to occur. I don't want to snoop and be consumed with it, but any space I create, he is just going to fill.
Read this about the mindset of the wayward W:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554&page=1How do I balance "I want to work on it" and some affection and normalcy before I started to withdraw myself with the now very cold feeling now that I'm withdrawing?
For now, you can't balance it, b/c she is wayward. You are finding yourself in the fix it mode. Your anxiety is causing you to feel the fear of abandonment, etc. I want to help you by sharing common things about wayward W's. It will be hard to digest, but at least you'll have a better idea of what you are dealing with. If you will start with the link I gave, it will lead you to other threads that discuss the key points of the wayward W.
For now, you need to forget about tenderness and affection. WW's are manipulative, cold, and extremely selfish. They will check your emotional attachment, as a way to keep you in the palm of their hand. You must not let any show of niceness, tenderness, or affection from your W mislead you into believing everything is good and back on track. She will hurt you afresh, if you don't keep your head clear. We will help, if you will post daily. In the meantime, don't say or make any grand decisions without at least running by the board and waiting two or three days to think it out (if possible).
Oh, and don't repeat to her what you read on the board, unless specifically told something to say.
Is 180 overkill right now if at least on the surface she seems to want to fix things? When last asked if she's ready to just end it, she said "no we are not ending anything" but she feels checked out since I started 180.
180 overkill is when the H is trying to correct everything on his W's complaint list. However, he doesn't know how to keep things balanced. For example if she complained that he doesn't help out around the house, instead of helping.....he starts doing it all, leaving her with nothing to do. That's not balanced and it's not the point of 180's. See what I mean? And overdoing on an 180 does not cause her to appreciate him more. In fact, it can have the opposite effect on a wayward W. He tries to fix the MR by going into overdrive, convincing her he has changed. But it becomes all about pleasing/impressing her, and some men fall into subservient behavior. The problem is that he believes this will fix the relationship. When the W is wayward, he could check off every little complaint on her list......but it would not cause her to have loving, affectionate feelings for him. His focus has to be on respect and how to get back his male backbone. She has lost respect for him as a man, and as her H. In order for her to feel desire for him as a man/husband, she has to feel respect. That's how she is wired. BTW, I suggest you not ask her anymore if "we are ending anything".
To be clear, I am not saying to not have 180's. I'm saying the 180's you probably need to do falls under the heading of nice guy syndrome and/or co-dependency. Most newcomer H's think 180's mean to start doing more housework. I've never seen that work with a WW! I've been studying this wayward business for twelve years and I've never seen a WW stay with her H b/c he started doing more around the house. And yet, nearly every WW will put that very topic close to the top of her complaint list. Should a working man help his working W around the house? Sure, but my point is that has nothing.....NOTHING to do with her real issue. She submits this list of complaints to cover up the real problem. It's about loss of respect in him as a
man.
Thanks to both of you, this got my head straight. Feeling good at the moment, GAL was great today, and also bought and read a large portion of DR. Currently I don't really even want to be around her. I'm keeping pleasant, but definitely would rather do my own thing than sit around and dote on someone who doesn't reciprocate or respect me.
After some sleep and thinking I realize I might still be doing detachment wrong and still being distant. I'm not...fun or bubbly and I will always lose that competition with the OM if I'm doing what I'm doing now. I'm not bad or anything, but hes *fun* and I'm not at that level right now.
I basically spent all day away from the house when yesterday was a huge event for her, but it's the culmination of something she trained for with the OM so I just spent the entire day doing my own thing and congratulated her, but I know it's not something she really wanted to share with me anyways. But in some ways I feel like "my crummy always-indifferent husband wasn't around or excited after my big achievement" is a viable complaint here. For most of the relationship I was the aloof partner and neglected her in some ways to focus on what I thought were the foundational things. Part of her complaints with the relationship months ago were that she felt alone and I didn't love her and help. Not sure how to 180 on some of those without chasing. Trying to temper the house work to where its fair.
I feel like we're toast. I feel better when I'm out and about and away from her. Maybe a bad combo. I need to figure out how to be fun around her since I know the other guy has me beat there in spades. I'm trying to be fine with whatever happens, though. The EA is not out in the open either. It's still just in the phase where I asked about it, she denied.
This might sound odd as well, but I need to actively look for ways to display my backbone, it seems like. I am considering setting boundaries with my family. If she wants this distance/fake separation, then I'd rather go alone when I have family events. I know this will go over like a lead balloon, but can't decide if it's the right thing to do, or overkill. I'm also going to start separating my finances, and tell her that I think going on vacation together is a bad idea at this time.
All this is just venting. I need to tighten up and be more fun and not distant - but detached.
Sandi, perhaps this is a dumb question, but if she says "I love you" first, should I say "I love you too" ?
I think so, but I didn't 3x yesterday because I think I was adhering to the "rules" incorrectly. Regret it a bit today.
It seems detaching is the most difficult for newcomers to grasp.....much less actually doing it. I have a favorite copy of a much shorter definition/example of detaching. I'm going to paste it below.
****************************************************************************************************
Definition of Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)
I. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.
When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.
When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love (known as to lovingly detach*), we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flip-side, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.
It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.
We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).
We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)
PART II Detachment (found around here)
Detachment is the:
* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.
* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.
* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.
* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my duty/job to do so.
* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.
* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.
* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanding or controlling.
* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).
* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.
* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
* Ability to allow S to be who he/she really is rather than who I want him/her to be.
IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -
We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.
This morning, after my earlier posts, I felt like being gone ALL DAY yesterday might have been too cold. When I got up, I was making coffee, so I asked if she wanted some and she did, so I brought her a cup casually (since I was doing it anyways) and I gave her a kiss on the forehead and she smiled real big. Worked on some stuff around the house. She was getting ready to leave, and I had errands to run, so I went to the bathroom, told her I was heading out, and she said ILY and gave me a face-to-chest hug. I told her I loved her too...then I went to run some errands. Heading out to GAL again today, but might take my foot off the gas just a little with that. If I wanted to, I could not be home at all for days. I have a lot of friends, family, hobbies, and interests. I should have some contact with her. I've been in a good mood at least when I see her. Not perfect, but not bad.
That detachment definition leaves some room for caring about her in a masculine way. If I can love on her some but stay "alpha" I think I'll be much happier. I made sure to keep this in mind today when I brought her coffee. I do need to stop hanging onto fluctuations. The not trusting words things is leading me to not believe ILY of course, too.
Shes at church now, which is kind of a new thing, which was one of the things she cited in our ILYBINILWY talk at the beginning of the year. I offered to go, but since she knows I'm apostate she says it makes her uncomfortable. Way back when, she always told me repeatedly it didn't matter. Suddenly it does when she meets her EA/EA-lite person who has so much in common with her that I don't (but things I'd work on if given the chance).
What I have in my head (but shouldn't, but am trying to understand) is if this is a hybrid WAW-WW thing. The guy she's into IMO would not risk his wife/life/career on this. I'm sure hes enjoying it, and maybe they've crossed more lines than I have evidence of, but I also wonder if she sees him as a "template" of someone she wants, not necessarily him, and shut me out for that fantasy - someone like him, but not him, but that might just be me over-analyzing. Maybe it's a one-way or a crush. He's definitely stoking the fire, and I bet he's at minimum trying to cause trouble in the marriage even if he's just "too good of a friend". She's definitely into him or the idea of him of course. Just wonder where she thinks this is going.
She keeps saying "I love you" without me saying it first when leaving the house, I'd been saying "I love you too" but I didn't today. She said it 3 times in 5 minutes. If only there was any other sign that she wasn't just stringing me along!
Well if she said it three times in five minutes, she was noticing you weren't replying and she was trying to get a response.......would be my guess. Don't get obsessed over small stuff. Just say something like, "Yeah, you too", and move on. The point or rule is for you to not initiate the ILY's b/c it is pressure to her. But if she throws it your way while going out, don't make a big deal about it, and throw it back. At least until we have more details. Are you suppose to be in-house separated? I don't recommend you agreeing to that setup, but that's just me. I've not seen successful IHS.
The relationship history rewriting is really disappointing too now that I see the holes left behind where she used to obviously love me. That's the worst part. She did love me and was attracted to me even though she says she isn't or maybe never was. Limerence and the history rewrite are driving us into the ground.
No, it's driving YOU into the ground. You've just gotten started and have a long way to go yet. One of the first things you have to work on is letting this stuff go, or it will drive you crazy. Yes, she is rewriting history, but you know the original form and there is no point in arguing and trying to convince her that she has it wrong. It's a waste of time. Yes, she loved you, and probably will again......if you learn a few things. But here's the thing, it's not going to happen today. You have much more important things to deal with, so don't get hung up over this. I don't mean to sound insensitive. I'm just saying you've got to lay this aside and focus on the things we will be telling you.
After some sleep and thinking I realize I might still be doing detachment wrong and still being distant. I'm not...fun or bubbly and I will always lose that competition with the OM if I'm doing what I'm doing now. I'm not bad or anything, but hes *fun* and I'm not at that level right now.
A "bubbly" man? um.....no.....especially if that is not your personality. What is your personality type?
Don't get your focus on OM and comparing yourself to him. Do you know this OM personally?
For most of the relationship I was the aloof partner and neglected her in some ways to focus on what I thought were the foundational things. Part of her complaints with the relationship months ago were that she felt alone and I didn't love her and help. Not sure how to 180 on some of those without chasing.
So, set me straight, b/c she has said you were suffocating her. How can you be aloof and suffocate her?
Did the suffocation result from you trying to 180 on her complaints? If so, then here's the problem. If she were not wayward, it might be simple to resolve. You would just start showing her more attention, spend quality time with her, have date nights, etc. However, once she is wayward, her heart has changed and she doesn't want those things. Her heart has closed to you and opened to another man. Therefore, if you try to spend time with her, be romantic, or whatever......she feels as if you are sucking up the air in the room. I know, b/c I felt the same way toward my H. It got really bad when I entered the rebellion stage of waywardness. By then, I had OM in my head, and I couldn't stand for my H to get near me. Once I ended my EA and worked on myself, the coldness left and loving feelings returned. ((hugs))
Okay, so for now you won't be able to address some of her complaints, b/c she doesn't want it now. And b/c she doesn't want to work on her MR, you won't be able to be the type of H you'd like to be in every way. DBing is as much about what you don't do, as it is about what you do.
This might sound odd as well, but I need to actively look for ways to display my backbone, it seems like.
I would suggest you start by physically standing & walking tall with your back straight. Hold you head up and shoulders back. You said you were in good shape, so this will help you look strong and confident. Don't slouch, hand your head, shuffle your feet, or wring your hands. IMHO, a man shows that he has a backbone when he won't allow someone else to disrespect him, without consequences. He is not going to stand around and be bullied. If he has a family, then he is their protector and leader. He steps up and is decisive instead of being passive. He doesn't cow down to his W and become a "yes, dear" type of guy. He doesn't cry in front of his W and kids. He does it in private. He is the picture of strength, not just physically, but in his behavior/actions. He does not compromise his integrity.
I am considering setting boundaries with my family. If she wants this distance/fake separation, then I'd rather go alone when I have family events. I know this will go over like a lead balloon, but can't decide if it's the right thing to do, or overkill.
Don't agree to a "fake" separation, where she wants to keep it a secret. That is the worst kind! Plus, it is the epitome of cake eating on her part. Not sure I understand what you mean by setting boundaries with your family. Can you explain more?
I'm also going to start separating my finances, and tell her that I think going on vacation together is a bad idea at this time.
When is the vacation scheduled?
Oops, cold is something you do when you're around her. Being gone all day yesterday is what you should be doing! That's called GAL. Be proud because most newbies do not do GAL very well. So no being gone all day yesterday was not too much. After all she asked for more space, right?
Look newcomers always thing they should be doing something. DBing is more about NOT doing things, especially the wrong things.
Thanks! She has said no to separation when its been brought up in MC. She tells me she doesnt want to, at least.
The vacation is planned for next month. She brought it up but said she wanted to "not talk about us" but since its planned to be overseas it seems like a bad idea to me in some ways. She initially had the idea a few weeks ago, then once I had the clinginess attack she reneged on it. The suffocation is definitely from my trying to start doing everything well and checking in on things before i had any idea what i was doing. Cried once, etc.
She had valid complaints with me from before all this in that I was stoic, aloof, not affectionate enough, weak, and most of all just a grumpy miserable person. I own that.
Oh also yes I know the guy and see him a few times a week. Theyve definitely gotten too close and shes hiding the depth of her activity with him.
She had valid complaints with me from before all this in that I was stoic, aloof, not affectionate enough, weak, and most of all just a grumpy miserable person. I own that.
YOu should go look at what I wrote to si. After BD you have to be judicious in what you 180 on. Stoic and aloof are not things you need to 180 on, you need to be those things now. Do you really think you should start being affectionate now? Of course not. WAS: "I need space." Doesn't mean, "all of the sudden start hugging and kissing me all the time."
Grumpt and miserable, yeah 180 on that!
Thanks, Steve. You make an excellent point.
My replies had been choppy since I'd been on my phone, so sorry if if I've left information out or done a poor job of responding up until now.
Anyways, going to journal/mind barf to clear my head before work today. Definitely GAL went well over the weekend, we had a little bit of a test that I'd give myself a 50/50 on. She hinted at making plans with me and doing stuff with me over the summer (running and biking and hiking). I hung out with my bros, my family, and did a mountain bike race. She did a LOT around the house yesterday, so I thanked her, offered to cook, cleaned up real quick, asked her to make some stuff for me this week which she happily did. I told her I'd like to take all of the dogs on a family walk, and she seemed to just yield to my manner of saying that we were doing it. Made sure to stand tall and calm in the face of pain and her questioning some things I did this week. Once we got back home from taking the dogs out, she quite obviously texted the other person for a little while. I sat down to watch TV or read, she said she was going to watch TV or read, so I confidently patted the spot on the couch next to me and she came over and sat up against me. Eventually asked for a back rub, I told her I'd do it if she does mine after I lift the next day and she agreed. The back rub/massage was kind of sensual in a way without me trying. I'm much taller than her, so I was kind of enveloping her from behind and working on her back and legs. In a different world it could have led elsewhere. Eventually she'd had enough and we finished watching TV, then got in bed at the same time to read. Of course she slept on the opposite edge of the bed. I suspect a lot of this was to keep me on the hook after I did some things this week she caught wind of that spooked her into thinking I was leaving or starting to separate us some financially. I explained those without weakness/lying. I did tell her good night when we went to bed which was new. Felt weird, probably won't do that anymore. Did upper body work this morning in the gym. I'm about 10lbs away from getting abs if I have to resort to Tinder in long run, I guess.
I'm now seeing the wishy-washiness for what it is. She might have bilked me for a massage, but I also asked her to do some things for me and guided the afternoon for the most part with confidence. Forward progress. No "ILY" this morning from either of us.
In my head in the gym this morning I was thinking about the whole "alpha" and behavioral stuff mentioned here. She has told me twice now that she finds me physically attractive or even hot, but she is not "attracted to me" and this has been revised in her head too. I think this, along with the massive amount of weakness/manchild she dealt with for years plainly supports the idea that I need to change my behavior to be attractive. Physically, I'm tall, muscular, getting lean, attractive in general. In the past she asked things like "Why are you even with me?" and indicated that I'm the more attractive partner...until I let myself go for a while (mentally and physically) that is. I think I'm a good looking person that is definitely because of my now rusty/dormant social skills and attitude.
Her mental health is apparently really really bad right now, but I'm not sure if she's telling me this as cover or not. Her depression/anxiety/traumatic upbringing issues might be gas on the fire for the EA or whatever it is.
The worst thing in my head right now, however, is that it seems like every other post/sig I see this always ends up in divorce. Hard to be optimistic, even if I know I should be doing it for myself.
Oh also yes I know the guy and see him a few times a week. Theyve definitely gotten too close and shes hiding the depth of her activity with him.
Is this a situation where you and your W are friends with OM and his W? In what capacity do you see him a few times a week?
We all work together, actually. I got a job in this department on a different team from OM. She was unhappy at work, so she started looking over here some in my department and OMs team had an opening. She didn't know him at the time. Their team took a chance on her (taking this job was a huge leap and she's been under incredible stress trying to learn) and he was assigned as her mentor. He did a great job teaching her...she's been in that job about 2 years now. Others around the office have even made jokes that they're a cute couple, etc. Eventually she started exercising with him, and sharing interests that she never got into with me like podcasts, talking about family, book club, he taught her how to play golf, etc. Now they flirt and talk a lot and shes putting energy into him and not me since late 2018. They did a half marathon together this weekend, and she told me she didn't want me to attend to support her. They're getting lunch together/for each other, bringing each other coffee, etc. from what I know but she's hidden all this from me. I'm reasonably sure shes confiding all of this to him (her IC, our frictions) and he's probably telling her to chase her feelings.
In the past, we've had dinner with him and his wife, watched their pets, been to their house to learn how to watch the pets, etc. He's also more "alpha" around here socially because of how our teams function. I'm not close to his wife or particularly close to him, and I think he doesn't like me and has told her I'm weird and probably undermining our relationship now. I used to be invited to happy hours from his team, now I'm not.
While I was miserable to be around, he was nurturing her.
Her depression/anxiety/traumatic upbringing issues might be gas on the fire for the EA or whatever it is.
Tell us more about her traumatic upbringing.
Okay. First what you did wrong.
Do not invite her on the dog walk.
You: "Going to take the dogs for a walk."
IF she says nothing, THEN take the dogs for a walk.
ELSE IF she says "I'd like to go along." THEN say "OK." and let her go.
DO NOT ask her to go, or make it as if she is expected to go. That is pressure and pursuit.
Also, patting the couch next to you IS pressure and pursuit. Do not do that. If she chooses to sit next to you, fine. If she asks for a massage and you WANT to give her one, also fine.
You need to remove all pressure and pursuit. All of that would have been fine prior to BD, but since BD it needs to cease.
Her brother has a mental illness that makes him angry and he'll need care for the rest of his life. He tried to kill her. It broke her parents. They both phoned it in basically - dad and the brother were fighting constantly, mom quit and basically rotted. They quit working. Lived a lower class life with a messy, trashed house - basically stereotypical trailer park life. She withdrew to her room, read books, kept to herself. Shes introverted, socially anxious, etc.
When we got together, she was in REALLY bad shape and I had direction and confidence. I wasn't all that into it at first to be honest but thought she was a great person and worth the investment. I invested, thinking the grass is greener where you water it, and she turned out great. She went through a wave of trauma soon after we got together too. She almost died from alcoholism, was diagnosed with an incurable disease that will eventually ravage her potentially, her father died, our mutual friend and her best friend died. Just before we got together her boyfriend had cheated on her with her best friend too. I took her with me anyways and I was her rock. She's' really blossomed, but I've been struggling the last few years with real life.
The straw that broke the camel's back I think might have been the thing with her brother - she carries it, and we kind of waffled on having children (fear on my part) because odds are we'll have "her brother". She told me she'd kill herself if that happened, so we started looking into the scientific 30,000 dollar methods to prevent that late last year. She was excited. End of the year/early January I told her that I wasn't sure still and I think it crushed her spirit some and all of the resentment just flooded her. She really wanted children but didn't make it extremely clear I guess. I didnt pick up on the signs and was slow to come around to the idea.
oops, I would also highly suggest you stop focusing on her so much. I know it is hard. But everything you do, you look for a response. You get back from walking the dogs and you are focused on what she does (texting, etc). You are worried she manipulated you into a massage. You notice that neither of you said "ILY" this morning.
DBing, with one eye over your shoulder will never ever ever work. Yes she is trying to keep you attached. That is her goal. She wants her Plan B squarely in place because Plan A is not solidified. Her worst fear right now is that Plan A goes away and Plan B has moved on too. SO expect more temp checking, and trying to keep you on the hook. That is what future planning by WASs is all about. "If I talk about summer plans, what will he say? How will he respond? Will I see him squarely still waiting for me?"
DB for you. 180 for you (so that you are an awesome person for your next R, whether it is with her or someone else.). GAL, for you. Detach, for you. Whether or not she even acknowledges these changes are not. Do it FOR oops!
Thanks, Steve. 10-4. I've been ramping down, so I guess I need to keep ramping.
I admit I still love her so it is hard. I am getting closer every day, but unfortunately I tend towards anxiety and I have an incredibly active, detail oriented mind (this has served me incredibly well career-wise, but not so great for this situation).
Her brother has a mental illness that makes him angry and he'll need care for the rest of his life. He tried to kill her. It broke her parents. They both phoned it in basically - dad and the brother were fighting constantly, mom quit and basically rotted. They quit working. Lived a lower class life with a messy, trashed house - basically stereotypical trailer park life. She withdrew to her room, read books, kept to herself. Shes introverted, socially anxious, etc.
When we got together, she was in REALLY bad shape and I had direction and confidence. I wasn't all that into it at first to be honest but thought she was a great person and worth the investment. I invested, thinking the grass is greener where you water it, and she turned out great. She went through a wave of trauma soon after we got together too. She almost died from alcoholism, was diagnosed with an incurable disease that will eventually ravage her potentially, her father died, our mutual friend and her best friend died. Just before we got together her boyfriend had cheated on her with her best friend too. I took her with me anyways and I was her rock. She's' really blossomed, but I've been struggling the last few years with real life.
The straw that broke the camel's back I think might have been the thing with her brother - she carries it, and we kind of waffled on having children (fear on my part) because odds are we'll have "her brother". She told me she'd kill herself if that happened, so we started looking into the scientific 30,000 dollar methods to prevent that late last year. She was excited. End of the year/early January I told her that I wasn't sure still and I think it crushed her spirit some and all of the resentment just flooded her. She really wanted children but didn't make it extremely clear I guess. I didnt pick up on the signs and was slow to come around to the idea.
So adopt. There are no guarantees in life. I don't care if you spend $3 million. Do you both try to control everything so tightly?
So adopt. There are no guarantees in life. I don't care if you spend $3 million. Do you both try to control everything so tightly?
Kind of, yeah. We have trouble ruminating.
Thanks, Steve. 10-4. I've been ramping down, so I guess I need to keep ramping.
I admit I still love her so it is hard. I am getting closer every day, but unfortunately I tend towards anxiety and I have an incredibly active, detail oriented mind (this has served me incredibly well career-wise, but not so great for this situation).
Loving her means to love her on her terms. She asked for time and space. Give it to her because you love her. If you truly love someone you want them to be happy, no matter what that means. This was a truth that helped me so much in my sitch.
Loving is not trying to control. Not trying to keep her there against her will. Is not trying to manipulate her through DBing or anything else. Loving her is to give her all of the time and space she needs to figure this out, no matter what the outcome.
My guess oops, if you were completely honest with yourself, is that your actions are being motivated by fear. Fear of D. Fear of losing her. Fear of being alone. Not by love.
Yes, there is definitely a fear component here. It's getting better over time though.
We never tried to control *each other*, which was nice. But I see what you mean.
sandi, since you asked about how we know each other, in my other post I forgot to mention that she's been looking for a new job (without telling me at least for a while)
Working with them really [censored]. I tried to go out and enjoy my lunch and stay detached today, but it appears they went to lunch together and she rode with him (of course she's told me they don't go to lunch together in the past).
Even so, I keep oscillating between wanting to work it out and just filing myself because of how much it hurts. But then I realize I shouldn't be thinking that way and am forced to take ownership of how awful I was for years and that my lack of backbone, manhood, leadership, and basically being a man-child led her here, and that hurts worse. I can't imagine her ever respecting me again after all of that. But all of that is the kind of thinking that got me here: impatience, frustration, over-thinking, and lack of optimism and respect for myself and her. Phew.
Talked to the OM for a while today. Kept it cool. I suspect this is a one-way thing for her tbh. Started as WAW because he is giving her excitement but it's not like he's really *into* her. Hard to know what I'm dealing with. In theory I guess it shouldn't matter, I just assume there are distinctions in how to act which I read about but seem to have forgotten.
That said, the relationship symptoms are the same.
Weird night last night. She brought our looming anniversary vacation that was planned then limbo'd back up. I told her going to another country as "just friends" is a non-starter for me, since she hasn't indicated that she wants to improve the relationship. She asked how I would feel about her going somewhere alone, I plainly told her to do what she has to do.
She said that we "used to be so close now theres so much distance" basically couched in terms of barely friends anymore since I've been detaching, maybe with too much withdrawing I admit, to which I responded "yes. you have space". She said she's trying and that she does want to work on us and grabbed my hand, and said she would rather us go together and get away from the norm and stress even if she "cant be a real wife" right now. I think in this case she means that like a "be passionate and kissy" euphemism.
At this point I told her I am willing to do something in the US, and gave her 3 choices of places. In my mind though, I'm skeptical that this is cake eating or temp checking or something. I have enough friends. That said, I told her to go alone and she seemed to strongly want to do something with me. The mental health stuff really clouds this up though, some of this might just be her depression/instability.
I saw two interesting things over her shoulder. Firstly shes looking for a new job. Secondly her IC sent her a book to read for fixing marriages.
Anyways, I worked on some plumbing projects last night that were stressing both of us out. She seemed warm with me in conversation last night, made her laugh really hard picking on her some.
Doing my best to have no expectations on any of the above, and maybe I can have fun surfing. Im surprisingly calm last night and tonight.
I'm having trouble navigating one thing, and that's the fact that I haven't set any boundaries with the OM or blown all of this open. I think she doesn't know that I know, and I'm almost okay with that from the perspective of not wanting to force them underground more.
But also, early on, when she told me he wasn't anything, I said "oh okay" because I didn't want to display any jealousy or insecurity. This makes the whole vacation thing awkward. I may need to assert more that I do not want to go as just friends next time it comes up, but I cant decide if I want to confront about the OM. I'm not even sure she knows what she is even doing is wrong, but the grass is definitely being watered over there more than my grass. Im temped to tell her that if she "wants to work on us" as she says, that she needs to back it up by ending her inappropriate conduct, but doing so reveals that I know, and I'm sick of talking about the relationship any more than I have to. But, in being cool about it, I'm also leaving myself open to being weak perhaps.
Also this morning she said ILY and gave me a hug when I left. We made eye contact and did the peck while going out the door kiss. It didn't feel like pursuit, but I'm being wary.
So many mistakes................
Talking to OM? Reading over her shoulder.
She wants to go on vacation but just as friends? And you don't think that is cake eating?
oops, how would you grade yourself on the main three tenets of DBing: GAL, detachment and 180s?
I'm having trouble navigating one thing, and that's the fact that I haven't set any boundaries with the OM or blown all of this open. I think she doesn't know that I know, and I'm almost okay with that from the perspective of not wanting to force them underground more.
But also, early on, when she told me he wasn't anything, I said "oh okay" because I didn't want to display any jealousy or insecurity. This makes the whole vacation thing awkward. I may need to assert more that I do not want to go as just friends next time it comes up, but I cant decide if I want to confront about the OM. I'm not even sure she knows what she is even doing is wrong, but the grass is definitely being watered over there more than my grass. Im temped to tell her that if she "wants to work on us" as she says, that she needs to back it up by ending her inappropriate conduct, but doing so reveals that I know, and I'm sick of talking about the relationship any more than I have to. But, in being cool about it, I'm also leaving myself open to being weak perhaps.
Also this morning she said ILY and gave me a hug when I left. We made eye contact and did the peck while going out the door kiss. It didn't feel like pursuit, but I'm being wary.
Say nothing to her about OM.
Tell her that right now, with the state of the MR, you don't feel like it would be wise to go on vacation. That a lot has happened and is happening and you need time to process through everything. Tell her that if and when things get better in the future, then you can always go on vacation later.
Then stick to it through the begging, pleading, crying, maybe even screaming, and threats. Attraction is about taking back respect. WWs in the midst of an EA that get their husbands to take them on a friend zone vacation do not engender respect. Many LBSs have made the mistake of going on vacation anyway, and coming back to an even more distant WAS. Including a couple here recently. Don't fall into the trap.
DB! GAL! Detach. You are way to focused on her.
I've settled on killing the vacation if it's going to be as friends. I'm just trying to decide if I should bring it up myself. I guess I'll have to.
GAL is excellent.
Detachment is bad because I'm ruminating and second guessing.
180s strong.
Talking to OM isn't what it sounds like. We just talked in the hallway about work and other random things. Not "talking to him" in the confrontation sense. I haven't let on that I know a thing to him, and I don't think she knows that I know either.
I guess I'd put it like this: I know she isn't trying to save our marriage in earnest because she's investing more into the OM. She doesn't know I know this, though. The picture she has painted was that she is trying through IC, and that OM is not a problem, and that she "wants us to work". For me to come out and say that I know that she isn't trying, and I'm killing the vacation if it's not an earnest attempt at reconciliation will beg the question of why I'm tearing through the myth she's constructing for me. I assume I should be short with words like you just put in your previous post. I did that in fact more or less yesterday, and then she said she "felt so distant and wants to work on it" and kind of duped me into considering it. I'm not good on my toes yet and this stuff always hits me the next day. I think in the moment I figured it would provide an opportunity for me to Be Attractive.
I need to focus on building respect. Confrontation with her is probably a good thing if I do it right.
Ran into her unexpectedly which turned into an R talk that I didn't even want when she asked about vacation. I learned some things, but it certainly wasn't worth it.
I have a horrible feeling about her IC. It seems like her IC is almost trying to split us up and she's never even met me. Shes suggested separation and has apparently encouraged her to consider moving out. W says she has resisted this because she wants us to make it and have a good marriage. She said she's looking for a new job and is trying to avoid OM because I brought him up before, and it's making her paranoid being around him and working with me. She keeps insisting shes "trying". This built up into her head as an ultimatum to "move out or be a wife" and I said no, that's not the case, I didn't want her to move out and I definitely don't expect her to be a perfect wife or anything close to it right now. I told her I simply felt like I was the only one who wanted the marriage. She said that she does want it and is doing her best but said her mental health issues allow no room for stress right now. I was calm and maintained composure at least. I could tell she shut down by the end of it.
I kept my composure and didnt beg or anything, but I didn't even want to have this talk, it was my responsibility to prevent it and I failed. Ready for my 2x4s. This is even worse if she's really that stressed out. I just really have no idea what I'm dealing with here. Even without my own stupid mistakes.
You're dealing with a cheater who you are emotionally attached to. The more you work on detachment the more you will be able to remain strong, aware, and present in the moment when she throws her BS at you. The more you work on detachment the better you will become at ceasing your enabling behavior.
You look at her as if you have everything to lose. When you start seeing that you can be fine without her and it shows in your attitude and actions than you will see that there's nothing to lose and that the fear was all in your head.
You want respect? Look her straight in eye and tell her you know what she's up to and that she needs to gtfo. Then leave. Tough to do, I know.
Believe nothing she says. Is IC really saying that? Or is she blaming the IC for this?
You want respect? Look her straight in eye and tell her you know what she's up to and that she needs to gtfo. Then leave. Tough to do, I know.
This works.
Do not reveal what you know, or how you know. Just that you do know.
"We both know what you have been doing"
"We both know that is not true"
"I am not stupid"
"I am no longer going to listen to your lies"
I guess I just wonder if I have the wrong idea before I dig in like that!
Back on the horse on the surface. We agreed to go to our corners and relax and back to normal tonight.
Going to read more about validation and NOT ENGAGE IN R TALKS ANYMORE.
Survived the night and now at work, hopefully the damage from yesterday's mistakes was minimal.
During the R talk, the subject of effort came up. I'd mentioned that the reason I didn't want to do the joint vacation was because of the state of the relationship, she probed, and I cited that I didn't want to go as just friends, and it turned into me explaining that I know she's putting effort into someone else, and she also asked about distance to which I responded "for example you sleep as far as possible from me and don't wear your engagement ring anymore." I know these things were mistakes, and the whole planned conversation I had that got derailed was a mistake.
But last night I got home after she asked what I wanted from the grocery store and she had her ring on, and we were pleasant with each other, even a couple of jokes. When we got in bed she cuddled up against me and I was already mostly asleep, so we ended up spooning.
I woke up this morning and we were talking about how we slept so (maybe mistake) I mentioned that she was cuddly last night. She then said "well after you lectured me yesterday I figured I'd give it a shot". I calmly told her that if I gave her the impression that I wanted her to do anything she didn't want to do, that that was not my intent, and that I understand she needs to figure things out without that kind of pressure. I then went to do some other things around the house, walk the dog, etc. She said she loved me in a happy way before she left and gave me a hug.
She also seems to now want to go on vacation as two people who are trying, but I've maintained that we don't have to go together, but she insists she prefers to go together. I'm not going to press on this anymore, last thing I want is an R talk, and I'd rather go and be cool than get into more bad talks. I really see no rational reason why she'd prefer for me to go unless shes trying to keep me on the back burner strongly.
So many mistakes still, but I'm learning I hope. I just need to stop them in real-time and not the next day. And I need to realized that everything I just saw and heard could mean absolutely nothing. I really hate having R talks myself now. I had a much better experience the other night when she was talking and I knew to sit and listen /validate and not say any more than necessary. Until yesterday, I made it a good run without one and it's much more pleasant. Instead of not starting them, I'm going to start loosely avoiding them if a situation like yesterday comes up again. Most importantly, I've got to stop overthinking and fixating. I have to get back into my own head somehow.
oops, just be aware that all of this might be manipulation attempts. To get the vacation.
Your mistake as not listening and validating. That is what you should do when she starts an R talk. Listen. Use validating statements. If she pushes for anything deeper, you need to tell her "I need time to process everything. This is a lot to consider."
The ring. The cuddling. She has something she wants (vacation) and is manipulating you. I would tell her next time the vacation comes up: "I feel we should postpone it for now. We can always schedule it for later."
I can't help but wonder why she wants to go together when I've been fine with her going alone.
From looking at your thread, Steve, it seemed at first you kind of tried to buck the idea that yours was anything but cookie cutter WW. I think I'm in a similar boat, I don't want to think of it as cookie cutter because there is plausible deniability w.r.t the EA, and it's also plausible that she actually is trying through going to IC and given that she's insisted that she wants the marriage and wants to fix it. The IC saying (supposedly) that she's not ready for couples counseling yet because of her mental state is also a confounding factor. Her insistence that she does not want to separate or move out is a confounding factor.
I guess I keep coming back to this: what if this is honest and above board for the most part, and the vacation is an earnest attempt to connect away from the stresses of work and home? I've not resisted a bit each time separate vacation comes up, but she refuses to take it.
I'm also hesitant to be so wishy-washy about the vacation. A few weeks ago, we both wanted it. She talked to her IC about it. IC green-lighted so long as it's not stressful. I hate to keep changing my message. If I'm honest with myself, I do want to go with her as long as there's not some "just friends" label. I just can't be assured that she's being honest with me because all I have is words, and I'm trying to be aware of the fact that I'm looking for hope, that maybe she's trying to break out of the fog. Maybe shes wrestling with it because there is no way the OM is viable from what I can tell. I think its just a flirt/fantasy thing so far even at 6 months.
Shes had the opportunity to spring for separation, for moving out, never brought up divorce, and has never said shes considering those things unless it's under the IC-mentioning-it umbrella. So either it's more illusion and she's using IC as an excuse, or she really wants to try. it all comes back to two things for me though: ILYBINILWY, and "attractive but not attracted to you" which I guess goes back to respect as a man. Which makes me think maybe the rest of this just doesn't matter.
How do you know when they really are being honest that they want to try, anyways? Do they want to try before they are back "ILWY" ? 'is it tepid at first?
I'd focus on slowing down, thinking for a second, and then giving her a brief but short reply. You are too wordy and it gives her the feeling that you are still desperate AKA not attractive.
"for example you sleep as far as possible from me and don't wear your engagement ring anymore."
When you say stuff like this it shows how desperate you are.... AKA unattractive. How can you turn this around?
You are right. I need to STFU more. I've gotten better, a lot better, but still not good enough obviously.
I guess I was offering evidence that I knew I didn't see trying in the flesh beyond the words. She asked "what does trying look like" more or less, so I told her why I felt that way.
I never want to talk about any of that with her again! I'm cringing now.
I can't help but wonder why she wants to go together when I've been fine with her going alone.
From looking at your thread, Steve, it seemed at first you kind of tried to buck the idea that yours was anything but cookie cutter WW. I think I'm in a similar boat, I don't want to think of it as cookie cutter because there is plausible deniability w.r.t the EA, and it's also plausible that she actually is trying through going to IC and given that she's insisted that she wants the marriage and wants to fix it. The IC saying (supposedly) that she's not ready for couples counseling yet because of her mental state is also a confounding factor. Her insistence that she does not want to separate or move out is a confounding factor.
I guess I keep coming back to this: what if this is honest and above board for the most part, and the vacation is an earnest attempt to connect away from the stresses of work and home? I've not resisted a bit each time separate vacation comes up, but she refuses to take it.
I'm also hesitant to be so wishy-washy about the vacation. A few weeks ago, we both wanted it. She talked to her IC about it. IC green-lighted so long as it's not stressful. I hate to keep changing my message. If I'm honest with myself, I do want to go with her as long as there's not some "just friends" label. I just can't be assured that she's being honest with me because all I have is words, and I'm trying to be aware of the fact that I'm looking for hope, that maybe she's trying to break out of the fog. Maybe shes wrestling with it because there is no way the OM is viable from what I can tell. I think its just a flirt/fantasy thing so far even at 6 months.
Shes had the opportunity to spring for separation, for moving out, never brought up divorce, and has never said shes considering those things unless it's under the IC-mentioning-it umbrella. So either it's more illusion and she's using IC as an excuse, or she really wants to try. it all comes back to two things for me though: ILYBINILWY, and "attractive but not attracted to you" which I guess goes back to respect as a man. Which makes me think maybe the rest of this just doesn't matter.
How do you know when they really are being honest that they want to try, anyways? Do they want to try before they are back "ILWY" ? 'is it tepid at first?
You will know when they are being honest and wanting to try when their actions are consistent along those lines for a LONG time. The next question most people ask is "how long is a long time?" 6 months+.
Yes I struggled with the idea that my WW was the typical one. Turns out she was. Yes there were some big differences in my W and most WWs. She still had told no one about wanting out except me. She was worried about how her family and my family would react. She has relationships with mutual friends and people in my family that she was worried about harming. We both are very active in our congregation so she was worried about the reactions there and the damage to relationships there. There was our D that she was afraid to have to tell. I was the initiator of BD, most LBSs get blindsided by BD. It was a LONG distance EA, not someone she worked with or saw regularly.
Despite all of that, typical DBing efforts were what worked in my sitch. I did a good job of GAL. I got better at detachment over time. And I was meticulous in not only instituting 180s but makings ure they were lifestyle changes and not temporary, "I just want to get her back" ploys. On the detachment, I saw in my sitch the pursuit-distance dynamic first hand. If I chased, she ran. If I backed off she came toward me.
We did do a a trip to a Marriage Retreat in the thick of our sitch. I was advised by coaches NOT to go. I did it anyway. And it did not go well. It was religious based and she was already trying to rebel against what she knew to be right. It was a Thursday-Sunday retreat, culminating in worship service on Sunday before heading home. At lunch on Saturday she blew things up by telling me I was free to pursue other women.......remember, we were on a MARRIAGE retreat. Not what I was wanting to hear.
At MC the next week she said the marriage retreat made her sad because it made her realize she was stuck. Yeah, not the result I was hoping for. Especially after the lunch blow up she actually started changing for the rest of the trip. She was more affectionate during the last part of the Saturday retrest sessions. We had a great dinner out that night. We realized our car had been burglarized and some pretty valuable things stolen while we were at dinner, but not until we were on our way home. I jumped in and helped her with getting it reported, commiserating, and I have to say we were an awesome team through the crisis. I also saw an instance of her starting embrace my 180s, when we had a light moment and she asked me "who are you?"
But I really think you need to temper expectations. IF you go on this vacation with her, assume she is going AS a friend, not as a spouse that is working on the MR. The reason I say that is because you can't believe anything she says. In my case with the marriage retreat, I think my W agreed because a couple at church asked us to go, and because later she could say "we even attended a marriage retreat!" Your W could very well used this vacation as the "last straw" argument. "We even went on a vacation together and things didn't get better." WASs/WSs do this type of thing all the time.
My fear is, like other posters here, you will get home from this vacation and she will BD#2 you. So if you go on this joint vacation, temper your expectations. Do not assume that, even if she is awesome on the vacation, that you are out of the woods upon return.
I could see that. I suppose the same could be said for her going alone and "finding herself" in her alone time too.
I really wish I could just detach! I have good and bad days, but the bad ones are all-consuming. I think "the odds" are creeping into my thoughts too...meaning I feel like I need to just admit that it's over. I feel like success (defined as her being in love again) in this situation is what, like 5-10% ? The desperation is not respecting myself.
She did look into a relationship fixing book recommended by her IC (didn't tell me, but I happened to see while she was showing me something on the computer). She's cuddling with me, ring is still on, and she's saying ILY, but she's also a liar. I worked in a question about something kinda casual that I knew as a test and she didn't skip a beat to deceive me. She's got IC today. I'm sure when she gets home there will be more garbage to sift through.
Right now I'm starting to think putting up with this at all is just a lack of self respect and maybe I should just want her gone. I can do better than this. I took vows, but she's at the line of breaking hers if it hasn't been crossed already.
She did look into a relationship fixing book recommended by her IC (didn't tell me, but I happened to see while she was showing me something on the computer). She's cuddling with me, ring is still on, and she's saying ILY, but she's also a liar. I worked in a question about something kinda casual that I knew as a test and she didn't skip a beat to deceive me. She's got IC today. I'm sure when she gets home there will be more garbage to sift through.
Right now I'm starting to think putting up with this at all is just a lack of self respect and maybe I should just want her gone. I can do better than this. I took vows, but she's at the line of breaking hers if it hasn't been crossed already.
oops, always within your power to decide to cut bait and run. However, I personally feel you should give it some time to work itself. General guidance is at LEAST a year. But it shouldn't be a year of sitting and waiting. GAL. 180s. Detachment. They all have a goal: self improvement, discovery, and awareness. So that your next relationship, whether that is with your W or someone else, has a chance of being more successful.
Do the work. Earn your way out of your marriage. Otherwise you will carry baggage and the same problems into your next R.
Don't let your fears guide you, fortune favors the bold. Right now you
feel low, but at your core you are
strong.
Before you pull the plug, face your fears with your sword in hand. Fight, don't run.
If she runs from the truth (her A) and chooses to divorce, you have slayed the dragon. If you divorce without looking your fears in the eye, you have run.
'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave,' his father told him.”
I won't judge you either way, but I do want to offer you hope.
I worked in a question about something kinda casual that I knew as a test and she didn't skip a beat to deceive me. ...putting up with this at all is just a lack of self respect
It all depends on how big the deception is.
Cheating, OM etc, I would call her on the BS.
"We both know that is not true. When you are ready to tell me the truth I will listen" then walk away.
or "The Deceptions has got to stop."
Other things might require different response. When In doubt, do not respond.
Thanks, everyone.
Perhaps this is misguided and a mistake, but I'm trying to see what happens if I take the lead a little bit. This is a huge 180 for me in a way - I was always aimless, not fun, and indifferent. It seems a 180 on this will fit with some of the philosophy of being attractive to your wife, so I may try to attract her. When I am doing this, things are better.
So I've flirted with her last night and today and basically said "were going to do xxx" tomorrow and she seemed really excited about that. It's almost like she's wanting me to start leading. I think that's about the most important 180 I can do when I look back at our relationship - be the man and lead.
It might blow up in my face, but it's what I want to do for me honestly, just to challenge myself.
Oopsy,
What’s the deception? What is she lying about?
Honestly, I'm not sure if it's vague and less dangerous than I think, or if I'm just lying to myself.
Basically theres a guy at work and their relationship is deeper than she's ever let on. I've not found evidence of anything like...lovey. Its flirting and them trading their lives (like books/music/occasional lunch/politics talks) and they exercise together. So shes getting something from it, but from what I can tell so far it's toeing the line of affair without being an affair. Shes told him some things about us that she said she hasn't told to anyone. It's dishonest, but I could also rationalize it if I wanted to. Nothing I can find w sexting or anything. But they have had fantasy talks about her going on vacation with his family, or them moving to tropical places to work together, and he's walked her to her car before, once I think even before counseling.
I know normally this means there's more to it and just the tip of the iceberg, but I'd be shocked if this guy was risking his career and his own marriage to someone honestly incredible for this. So maybe it's one way, or they're slow walking towards it. Maybe it's just "not quite affair" and I shouldn't be asleep at the wheel on working on our relationship yet. When I was being cool and investing in the relationship we were much closer.
Some things make me want to take what my wife is saying at face value I guess, and I'm not sure if it's the same as I'd tell her I haven't told anyone when there is one person I've told. So maybe its hypocritical to jump to affair.
I dont think their relationship is appropriate, and it's definitely undermining us, but where's the line for EA? I think asking this is denial on my part, but I wouldn't be SHOCKED if she turns it around given me doing the right things either?
O,
I went back and read your first post and you indicated she wanted space and it sounds like your putting on the full court press. Her actions with the coworker are definitely inappropriate. The way to go here is in the opposite direction and see if she will pursue you. She can’t be connected to you while she has this connection with the other guy. Odds are you are just seeing the tip of the iceberg and 95% of what’s going on is on the down low.
Right now you are plan B. How do you become plan A?
That is exactly how secret affairs get started. Google "Not just friends". Don't be naive like I was. Married women should not have "close" guy friends that they discuss their R with.
LH19
I know what you mean, but I've given her a buttload of space except for like every 10 days we have a 5 min talk on average. I think so much that it made her withdraw even more? When she first asked for space she wanted to go out on dates and talk a lot...so once I pulled back, she pulled back quite a bit.
Now when I try to be cool and engage with her shes highly receptive? I guess. As long as I avoid heavy talk she seems into it. It's definitely easy to back away for me to be honest, but it's like shes wanting to spend time together, just not talking about the relationship. I guess this could be her trying to keep me plan B. Iceberg occurred to me too but I haven't turned up anything bigger.
R2C
I'll check that out. I'm sure I'll hate it inside, but I need to read it.
They both went inactive at the same time today before her appointment, and she never told me she was heading out. But she seemed excited to go out tomorrow with me and half the time proposes it herself when I'm cool to be around. Interesting. Im sure this did start as platonic deep normal friendship and now she's crushing on him and his ego is into it.
At least I'm able to focus on work for the most part today. At least so far she's never asked to separate or divorce. At least. Maybe she'll actually get that book her counselor is suggesting.
O,
The reason she’s pulling back is because she’s in an emotional possible physical relationship with another man. Have you heard of the friend zone? That’s what you are in right now.
She’s not going to ask to separate until she figures out where she stands with this douche bag. She’s gonna sit back and fill her face with cake while you continue to pursue her.
Have you heard of the friend zone? That’s what you are in right now.
Do not get put into friend zone. Become Alpha male.
"I do not want to be with a woman who does not want to be with me"
"I do not share my woman with other men."
"You know what, this is not working me me"
I highly recommend reading every quote I have grabbed from wise DBer:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2846984Then come up with a plan and execute your plan.
Weird night. She had IC yesterday and was home super late and said she "went for a walk" at the place where I think OM was running or runs frequently, though it is on the way. She mentioned that IC said it was fine if I come to the next session to see what's up. I said I'd think about it. She said I was looking good, I was over it so I made a joke that I'd do well on Tinder.
In my half asleep state last night I rolled over and cuddled her a little (she's done this to me a few times now, so I guess it seemed okay for me to do subconsciously). She'd also been near me in bed all night. Anyways she complained that she was "uncomfortable" because I might get near her boobs with my hands, so I rolled off and kinda laughed. She asked why I was laughing and I just said "just funny" went back to sleep. Probably looked butthurt but I was laughing because this is all just so obvious to me. She got up to pee and I think send a working from home email in a huff. Funny, OM works from home today too.
I've got a really itchy trigger finger on just telling her I'm out. I know they say a year, but do I really want this? This is another clear sign of "friend zone" and that I should kill the trip, even if it means I look wishy-washy but maybe I don't even care at this point. My wife has a boyfriend! I can find a woman that *doesnt* cheat!
But assuming I dont pull the trigger my problem here is committing to DB with the full pull away vs committing to things like you see in MMSLP.
I did read MMSLP, most of DR, and another book recently. I just don't even know what to believe to be honest.
Hi oops. Sitck to DB. Just read the last posts from LC and R2C.
First thing: get your respect back.
Detach, give space, get space. GAL.
It´s a marathon, remember that.
Keep DB oops, stay strong there!
I have plans for all weekend (camping with friends, hiking, events) so I'll have a life that's for sure! Still lifting and doing cardio bare minimum. Seeing my family.
I wish I had more proof.
There´s no need of that. Focus on yourself. Let her be whatever she wants. It´s counterintuitive now. You give space if you want to come closer. Keep that GAL. Get into amoafwl.
Keep moving forward.
Married Man Sex Life Primer, the book?
oops, I think based on this latest interaction you need to kill the trip. Yes you two will be going as friends. I am so afraid you will go, have an awesome, but platonic, time, and then she will come home and BD#2 you. As I said, I've seen it several times before including currently here a couple of times.
Likely, she is going to go on vacation as "working on the relationship", and then use it as an excuse later. "We tried everything! We even went on vacation together."
As far as the itchy trigger finger. Remember, if you do not give this enough time you will look back with regrets. "If only I had given her a couple more months." Etc.
Earn your way out. GAL. 180. Detach. Become the best oops you can be. Give her space. Let her go to get her back. But give her time to deal with her own crap. When the time comes to cut bait you'll know without a doubt.
Yeah, I'm going to kill the trip.
When I back away from it I'm not even sure I want her anymore. I'll never be able to forget this, and I'll never be able to have children with her.
Never say never. But take your time. Vent here and transform any bad enery into a positive one. Get into amoafwl. Not for her, for yourself.
Yeah, I'm going to kill the trip.
When I back away from it I'm not even sure I want her anymore. I'll never be able to forget this, and I'll never be able to have children with her.
You are hurting right now from her actions last night. And yes, we've all been there and it does hurt to hear the woman you've been intimate with say she doesn't want to be touched by you, or naked around you. One of the signs of problems preBD in my sitch was my W was going into the master bathroom, closing and locking the door, to undress and change clothes. It was awful.
Do not make decisions when emotional. I would even tell you, though I agree with the decision, to hold off on the killing of the vacation. Make that decision based on insight and forethought, not on emotion.
The evidence is piling up. It's physical.
The evidence is piling up. It's physical.
Talk to us. How do you know?
I am sorry oops Unfortunately this was very predictable. We see it all the time with newcomers.
Stay calm man. As LH says, it was predictable oops. We are very sorry about the news.
them meeting up at his place while she was "running errands"
How does those news change your sitch oops?
Ok. Just stay calm. If you are going to confront her just take a look at the healthier ways to do it. She is not respecting you but don´t go down at her level. Use that logical bad energy that you´ve got with the news to boost your detaching efforts.
Stay calm. Keep DB.
We are here if you need us.
Anyways she complained that she was "uncomfortable" because I might get near her boobs with my hands,
H:"W, I don't want you to feel uncomfortable. I think it is best if you go sleep on the couch."
Pack up all her things from the bedroom and put them in the living room.
I agree with RC but I would move them to the garage. Then calmly ask her to move out.
Read this thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2039619&page=1Read everything up to this important post:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2085371#Post2085371Pay close attention for RobX quote that contains "look I get it, you don't want to be with me anymore"
Take notes. Come up with a plan. Share your plan with us. Let us review, then execute the plan.
oops, take time to process. Deal with everything. Take the advice here, it will help. Your plan in the meantime doesn't change. GAL, 180s, and detach.
Once you are in the right place emotionally you can decide whether to keep trying to save your marriage, or to move on. But remember, deal with your emotions. Make a decision based on clear thinking, and what you REALLY want, not on emotion.
PA is a deal breaker for me, to be honest.
Not reacting yet. Going to keep my eyes open for a while.
Hang in there man. This too shall pass. Praying for you, we are here for you.
Stay calm oops. Don’t react on emotions.
Be strong. We are here.