Just journalling.
H was here last night to look after the kids while I went out to GAL. He was down and withdrawn and tired - still on the tail end of his sickness and his deadline is growing ever closer. We were a bit gruff and impatient with each other. I was tired too, having stayed up late the night before to finish off a bit of work that had suddenly become urgent. When I came home I apologised to him, then listened and validated as he went on a 20 minute lecture about my faults as a human being. I was pretty wrung out and weepy afterwards. He just kept going on and on and on about how he'd supported me in my work in the past, how he'd put up with all kinds of behaviour etc etc. He wasn't wrong in what he was saying and I validated as well as I could but I didn't understand why he was telling me, what he hoped to achieve, etc.
I asked him that - what he wanted to get out of the conversation. No answer. In the end I had a bit of a brain wave and said, 'are you telling me you are struggling like I was struggling back then, and you need my support now the way you supported me then? Are you asking me to care for you?' and he said yes. I said 'what is it I can do for you?' and he said he didn't want any big talks, only to go to sleep. So he slept over. I woke up feeling really sad and despondent. I really don't know how to support him - partly because of my self absorption in the past and partly because he's kept me at arms length for years and is now, I think, blaming me for not knowing how to be close to him and how to help him. He can't even bring himself to ask for care directly, and all I hear is criticism.
I'm sad this morning. Feeling a bit self pitying but also just some genuine sadness and grief. He'll be done with this big bit of work in about a month - slightly less. And I'll go away on my own for a while to think things through. And while I have tried not to have expectations about what he's telling me - that things will be different and he'll be all-in in repairing things once his head is a bit clearer, I know that I'm probably going to come down to earth with a bump and it is going to hurt. He may feel less burdened and anxious and stressed by his work, but I need him to work on the way he communicates and stop blaming and let himself be vulnerable with me and none of that is going to happen overnight just because his work situation has changed.
I don't think he has the emotional capacity to demonstrate or even feel some empathy for the things I might need to work on letting go of or forgiving and how hard that is going to be for me to do while he doesn't acknowledge that there's anything he's done to hurt me. I don't know if it is going to be possible for me.
I have GAL planned for today and tomorrow and I am going to make myself a fancy coffee and read for a while.
I think I'm sad because I do genuinely want to care for him and help him. There's probably all kinds of covert contracts in there and manipulation and needing to be needed and co-dependency. But there's also a man who I love who is in a terrible state. I do want to be a support and comfort to him and I know that because of my own shortcomings I have failed to do that in the past. And right now, no matter how much I'd like to comfort or help him, I don't think I can. He sees everything I do in the worst possible light, he's so critical I doubt there's anything about me he likes or wants right now, when I have tried to comfort or help in practical ways (like cooking him meals for the freezer, getting him stuff from the chemist, etc) he's ended up throwing things back in my face. I think he's probably pretty confused and mixed up and wants comfort, and doesn't understand why he feels critical or scared when I do comforting things - because he can't trust them. I think that's where he is. And I can't help with that. And I'm just sad, because it is a painful place to be for both of us and there's really nothing to do about it right now.
I also know he was drinking a bit last night when I was out. We'd agreed he wouldn't bring whiskey to the house - I asked him once and he has always stuck to it. But he was drinking whiskey last night. I asked him about that and he said he went into the cellar to get something he'd found an old and hidden bottle of whiskey and decided to have some because he was upset about our interaction before I went out. (What had happened was this: he'd been sitting around while I'd made and served tea, cleaned up after tea, supervised the kids doing their chores, etc - and I really wanted him to get up and take charge and collaborate with me rather than acting like a guest. He was exhausted and tired and waiting for me to go so he could step in. I was impatient and he was very defensive.) I didn't know he used to hide drinks - that's quite frightening to me. I asked if he was worried about his own drinking, and he said - -looking at me in quite a hard and blaming way - that he was worried about the triggers that caused it. So if he's blaming his choice to drink whiskey in the house when he's taking care of the kids (after promising not to) on me there's nothing i can do. It's more of the same - me being responsible for his behaviour. And I'm not.
When I came home I apologised to him, then listened and validated as he went on a 20 minute lecture about my faults as a human being
Alison - this is not validating. This is you allowing him to walk all over you, and from what you've written over the past few weeks it sounds like emotional abuse.
You make excuse after excuse for him. He was drinking. He's stressed. You approached him wrong. You aren't caring for him enough. You're caring for him too much.
Why do you value his emotional well-being over your own? The fact that he is stressed at work? Not a valid reason.
Your recent post points some of this out, and I hope you do start to pull back from him. I don't want this tension to continue to build between the two of you. We want you happy, healthy, and building a fantastic AlisonUK life.
Please take care.
This sounds quite similar to my last conversation with dh in France. I was telling my friend about it and she said maybe he was behaving that way to push me away. I also have issues with wanting to look after my dh and him pushing back on it, I'm also conscious that I don't want to do it as a way of earning love or people-pleasing, but because I love him and care about him. That's very difficult isn't it? Particularly since looking after someone can come across as over-eager and also controlling (I can see that in my mum's behaviour over the years, I don't want to be like that but it's only human to want to nurture people you love isn't it?)
My IC also said I make a lot of allowances for my dh and for his behaviour and my reactions to his behaviour, and I can see this a bit here with you. Actually my dh was better behaved during his busy time at work despite being stressed out and working hard, and his behaviour has slipped a bit since he finished, possibly due to exhaustion and possibly due to a hangover from all the adrenaline (plus possibly a real hangover...). So don't get your hopes up too much that things will change that quickly.
I think you need a break from him, he's no use to anyone right now and maybe it's just making things worse between you. I hope your day got better!
^^^Agree with Yail^^^
He was down and withdrawn and tired - still on the tail end of his sickness and his deadline is growing ever closer.
Don't forget he fired you as W. THOSE ARE HIS PROBLEMS, not yours!
then listened and validated as he went on a 20 minute lecture about my faults as a human being.
Why in the world would you validate his continued emotional abuse of you? Next time stop him in his tracks, tell him you are not interested in being dressed down by him yet again and that if he wishes to continue then you will show him the door. Put an end to it!
I was pretty wrung out and weepy afterwards.
= not detached
He just kept going on and on and on about how he'd supported me in my work in the past, how he'd put up with all kinds of behaviour etc etc. He wasn't wrong in what he was saying and I validated as well as I could but I didn't understand why he was telling me, what he hoped to achieve, etc.
He's just trying to beat you down, it's what abusers do. Just because he hasn't physically struck you does not mean he's not treating you horribly. Abusers needs to belittle others to make them feel better about themselves, and to drag others down to their level of misery.
Are you asking me to care for you?' and he said yes. I said 'what is it I can do for you?'
Quit trying to be his W, you're just pushing a big cake in front of him and telling him to help himself.
Get off his roller coaster!
Welcome to your first AS 2x4.
They are tough to read, but I have found there is always some truth in what he says. When someone 2x4s me on my thread - it always gives me pause to think.
I think I'm sad because I do genuinely want to care for him and help him. There's probably all kinds of covert contracts in there and manipulation and needing to be needed and co-dependency.
^^^ read this ^^^^.
Break the cycle. I know it's hard - I had to withdraw completely in order to get off the roller coaster. I don't know if it helped or hindered my sitch - we may have R'd quicker (probably not), but even if we had it would have been the same relationship as we had before. And it would have failed. At least this way, if we get another chance, then I know it will be built on mutual respect and if we don't, then my self respect (and probably his respect) will be intact.
What else have you got going on? GAL plans?
Thanks AS and FS. This stuff isn't easy to hear and it is even harder to do but it makes sense.
What else do I have going on?
Well, I've seen a friend every day this week and I will be seeing a couple of women friends tomorrow morning. Mainly coffee, dog walking, lunch, etc. I don't talk about my situation with all of them - in fact, there's only one or two I confide in. It's just to stop me getting lonely - I work at home and would be alone all the time other than the kids now.
This afternoon I saw a friend who was having trouble in his own marriage - we talked about both our situations for a while. They're still living together and he is finding it incredibly hard - and it made me feel a bit grateful that at least I get peace and calm and plenty of GAL without having to tread on eggshells, as he is doing and as I was doing when H and me were living together. I still have that 'treading on eggshells' feeling when I am around him - I can't ever get away from the feeling that I am being assessed and found wanting.
H texted today. He had an important meeting re his work and when he sent me his goodnight text last night (very affectionate again) I replied and wished him luck with the meeting. He texted afterwards to let me know how it went and asked how my work was going. I kept it cordial and brief.
Tonight Youngest is with H and I had some special time with Eldest, including a trip to the beach. He's getting on a lot better with H - they're texting and spending more time together when H is here (though Eldest won't go to where H is living right now). Even as much as six weeks ago I really couldn't imagine that happening - them thawing towards each other. It is fragile and it needs me to stay out of it, but I am grateful for it, whatever happens with my marriage. And I'm also grateful for the time I'm being able to spend one on one with Eldest - his behaviour has improved a lot these past four weeks, and his confidence, and while it isn't perfect, I'm noticing that we're talking less about boundaries and more about his feelings about things, and that's new. There's a new maturity there, and I think perhaps he's a bit more secure given that the house is MUCH more peaceful than it has ever been, he's seeing me happier and more cheerful and enjoying my life more often, and there's some consistency around screen time, language, homework time etc which there wasn't before, and which was a big source of conflict between H and I.
I have my goals - about my reading and hobbies and my work - and that's been happening too. I will see H tomorrow afternoon. He is caring for both kids and the dog (which he has warmed to a lot) while I do some clothes shopping in the afternoon - need some new walking gear for the solo holiday I have booked later in May. I am really really looking forward to it: I think all that silence and solitude and time to read and reflect and be outside is going to do me a lot of good.
There are lots of good things in there Alison, focus on those (())
Lots of good things!
All is well here. Just journalling. I had a nice time yesterday. H was very pleasant and cordial and while I was out with Eldest he took care of Youngest and the dog, and also did a lot of housework for me - changing beds and cleaning floors, etc, which I really appreciated because the puppy is quite high-needs at the moment and domestic standards were slipping a bit. It was kind of him to do that without making barbed comments about how much work the puppy is (that was always something he was worried about, and that the work would fall on him.)
He stayed for a while after I got back, just chatting while I was cooking - about this meeting he had regarding his work and the arrangements for the next few days. I could see he was very anxious and stressed. He could see I was a bit frazzled myself so he said he'd stay on and finish off the cooking if I took the dog out for a walk on my own for half on hour to get some headspace, which I did, and it made me feel much better and I appreciated that a lot.
It wasn't as if he came out and said it, but I did feel he was showing me with his actions that he appreciates all the work I am doing with the kids and in the house and wanted to give me a bit of a breather. Perhaps I am reading too much into it. He's a more of an actions than speaking type of man. And perhaps better DBing would be not to accept any help at all but to show him that I don't need any help from him at all. I could pay a cleaner, for example, and I think I may well do in the autumn when things pick up again for me at work and I am around at home less during the day.
Today has been a lazy morning so far. Baked muffins for breakfast. Plan to take the kids on an outing this afternoon but for now we're just hanging about in front of our screens. I don't let them do that too much - it's one of the new boundaries - but I think an hour on a Sunday morning to veg out is much needed.
It's weird, but though I appreciated the help and cordial conversation with H, and I do feel sorry for him, I was a bit relieved when he went. It feels like work to be around him - work to sustain a conversation and be careful and boundaried. It's only on my own I feel I can truly relax and just be myself without fear of criticism. Perhaps he feels the same.
It sounds like both of you were kind to each other even though you were both a bit stressed. That's good progress, Alison. I know what you mean about it being work though, I feel like both dh and I feel like that sometimes...
More journalling.
I had a hard morning this morning. Dog and Eldest were both playing up, and it was all a bit chaotic and I thought we were going to be late for school and I felt totally overwhelmed. Cried in the car after the school run. Had a brief chat with H (who is coming over tonight to take care of the kids while I GAL) which got a bit tense but we left it on good terms.
My instinct in these moments is to go to H because I want comfort and help. It's stupid because as has been said, despite what he is saying about R, he isn't available, able or willing to give that mind of support at the moment. I think he probably wants to be, and wants to be able to receive it, but the fact is that isn't where we are. We're not a team. And when I ask him for emotional support, this generally triggers a pretty defensive, critical side in him (here's why your difficult morning is your own fault) that I think comes from a kind of panic (I am never going to be able to be enough for her and make her happy so I will push her away) and this triggers me getting shrill and insistent and defensive and panicky and it escalates until I'm crying and we end up blaming each other. That didn't happen this morning, but only because we both had to get off the phone and get on with the day. I could sense it coming and I think he could do.
I need to stop this by not turning to him in this moments, but not doing it in a spirit of bitterness (I'm not calling that nasty so-and-so because all I get is criticism anyway and he's an awful, critical know-it-all who isn't worth bothering with) but in the spirit of turning towards myself and my own resources and being understanding - if I can be - that he has no resources for a relationship.
I think when I have a hard morning with the kids, I get very very self pitying. I start to feel resentful and uncared for. Abandoned, alone. Like I wouldn't be having such a hard morning if only H loved me / was a better person / etc etc. An attitude like that isn't me accepting the facts - which is that for the time being I am a single mother and I need to find a way to make that work without drama at busy flash-points in the day. I have most of the day alone, able to work at home at my own pace, see my friends and do GAL so there's no reason that a frantic hour in the morning is beyond me.
I also need a better routine in the mornings, and it will involve Eldest doing a bit more (he generally stays upstairs preening until he comes down, collects his packed lunch (made by me) and goes out of the door about half an hour earlier than he needs to because he likes to socialise with his friends before school starts. I think Eldest making his own packed lunch each morning would be a start and would free up a little bit of my time so things aren't frantic.
Er, my ds2 made his packed lunch from about age 8! I hear you on the school run stress though, I used to be late for school every morning until ds2 started going by himself...I also hear you on the self-pitying and feelings of abandonment too, such an ugly feeling.
It's ok to talk about having a hard morning with the kids with your H, after all he is the dad and therefore should probably be kept in the loop especially if he's seeing them later. Maybe if you tell him what you need when you complain about them then he might not feel the need to go into Fixit mode? Like 'I have had a horrible morning and feel upset about it but I just want to complain and have you listen'. Or do it via text, with a few emojis or something. I don't know, what would be a 180 for you on this?
Yeah - I did say that to him. I said, 'I'm not having a go at you, I just need a bit of a pep talk because I've had a hard morning,' but the fact is, he just can't do that for me right now and I need to accept that. Instead he wanted to talk - and demanded that I listen (then blamed me for the length of the phone call) to him tell me how frustrated he was about me not making Eldest do more for himself. And he is right about that - Eldest does need to shift himself a bit more in the mornings and at other times - and the boundaries have been working well with him but there is further to go. I listened, and I said, 'I know you're right about a lot of this. And I am doing my best. And I need, sometimes, for you to choose your time and sometimes just offer a bit of support,' and that's when it got more heated so we both ended the call. I don't think the problem is me not asking for what I need specifically and assertively. I think the problem is my not accepting that he just can't do it. Maybe he can't do it now because he is stressed. Maybe he can't do it now because he needs me to empathise with his sense of frustration first. Maybe he just can't do it at all because he doesn't have it in him. I don't know. And either way what I need to do today is accept that we don't have that mutual team support thing going on, and turn towards my own resources. I don't want a marriage like that, so either he will change and start to offer more, or I will go on my own way without him.
I don't feel self pitying now. I do feel a bit empowered to make some changes in the morning routine. And I do think I am a bit further along in accepting that a) H can't be a team player with me right now and b) I don't want a marriage where there isn't mutual support going on.
I suppose what I am learning today is the same as what I needed to learn when he was round the other night, having a 20 minute go at me for all my faults. He seems to have so much pent up anger and bitterness towards me that any time I go towards him asking for something, he uses it as the opportunity to vent some of that. And I think I've heard enough about my failings a parent and a wife and a human being now. There are many many many of them, and I am working on them, and I will never be perfect. And I will always do things that he just doesn't particularly like, and he can learn to live with that without nastiness, or not. But I just want some constructive conversations about how to go forward together, or for us to part. And I think I just can't go to him for support any more because he isn't currently able to offer it verbally (though I acknowledge he has been doing some practical things to help).
I have a question. I think I need to understand the difference between validation and being a doormat in the face of his criticism and blaming.
At the moment, I want to be available to validate his feelings and to act in a kind and supportive way if I can - but not where that has a bad effect on my emotional well being.
I want to stop having to absorb his criticism and blame and rehashing of the past. I've done such a lot of that. I'm done with that now. It probably makes him feel a bit better to have me listening humbly to his characterisations of my faults - and in many respects he is correct. But I have all the information about that that I need, I am working on it according to my own judgement and ability, and all allowing him to do that does is keep him blaming me and feeling like a victim, and keep me feeling criticised and hurt and like I'm being constantly auditioned. I don't want to do it any more.
Where is the fine line between validating and being assertive and protecting myself? What's the difference between him expressing a feeling and just criticising me? How to deal with both things assertively and compassionately?
I want to be available to validate his feelings and to act in a kind and supportive way if I can
That right there is your problem..
You are not dropping that rope at all... you may think you are based on your previous way of dealing things but in this sort of environment acting in a supportive way is helping nothing.
This is about you not him... your keeping one toe in the pool testing the water all the time.
Things will not change the way you are currently dealing with things.
No wonder you sound confused, all these different ways of acting in different scenarios is just inauthentic because in the long run you will never be able to keep it up.
Without a shadow of a doubt... the best way to get any relationship in this situation back is too let go.
If the relationship is genuine both people will find a way back to each other.
The reason most dont on here is because people are constantly trying to fix things or make things better. Let it go.
No, I think you've misunderstood me, or at least, I haven't clearly expressed myself.
I want to be able to validate him when he expresses feelings (following the DB advice and the stick, which I have re-read a few times recently) but I also want to be able to shut down the criticism and blaming. I find it hard to know the difference. Yail pointed out that when I thought I was validating him, I was actually allowing him to emotionally abuse me. I've been thinking about it a lot because I don't how how to tell the difference and I want to know how to - for my own growth and emotional well being and because it will be useful to me in all my relationships (I think I am a doormat with my Eldest too!) and not only for H.
Benito - I understand you don't think the way I am doing things is correct or helpful. Can you make a suggestion as to what would be better in terms of validating well and setting a boundary where there is emotional abuse going on?
Perhaps it helps if I am more specific. When H says something along the lines of 'I am really stressed' or 'I feel exhausted and like this work is never going to finish' or 'I'm angry that our marriage has got to the point where I've had to move out during the most stressful period of my working life,' I say things like 'It must be horrible to be going through all this at the worst possible time,' and 'things are so hectic and demanding for you right now' and 'I understand why you'd feel that way - I'd feel like that too,' and I consider that validating.
When he says 'you think xxx and because of that you're going to do xxxx' I can say 'I know given my behaviour in the past you're really afraid I'm going to do xxx in the future,' and sometimes that works and sometimes it gets him mad, because I am saying he has a fear based on an assumption, rather than agreeing that yes, I do think what he assumes I think and yes, I do plan on doing the thing he is afraid of me doing.
Sometimes he will speak at length about how things were for him in the past - sometimes many years past. I will say 'it was so horrible for you to be so unappreciated for such a long time and right now it feels impossible for you to move past that,' or 'for you the past is still really in the present and those feelings aren't in the past, but they are now' or 'I can understand why something like that would affect you so deeply and make it difficult for you to see who I am today.'
That's what I try to do when I validate. A lot of what he expresses to me are feelings of being unvalued, unwanted, second best. He also tells me what I think, what I feel, what I am going to do next, then gets himself angry about it. He will also predict what I am about to say, then start getting angry about that - even if I am very quiet he will go ahead and have an argument on his own. Then he will get annoyed about how long we've been having the conversation.
I consider emotional abuse to be name calling, sarcasm, mockering, belittling comments, etc etc. These have reduced MASSIVELY since I started ending every conversation where they took place. I don't think hearing things I disagree with or that make me feel uncomfortable counts as emotional abuse. I think being told what I think and what I am going to do next then blamed for it is unproductive, but perhaps not abusive. I worry that when I sit there and let him vent, all it does is entrench his anger and resentment.
Hmm, I really don't know the answer to that question, it's something I struggle with as well.
Maybe you could give him a time limit to complain? In a nice way not a teasing way. Maybe something like 'I know you have a lot of hurt to express, but it's painful for me to hear it and maybe it's not very productive, can we set a timer for 5 minutes and then move forward onto another subject? You're allowed to have your feelings but perhaps we could be more present and future oriented'
My dh has gone on a couple of rants about how miserable he was blah blah blah. I've stopped being defensive, and I've started validating as much as I can, but it still hurts. And maybe me validating just leaves dh stuck too, he's entitled to his feelings but I have worked super super hard to forgive him and let go of resentments to think about the future.
Or maybe if he won't agree to a time limit then both of you take a 30 minute time out to calm down and then go back to your conversation more civilly?
I think that time limit might help me. Will have to think about how to phrase that.
When it comes to it, I can't control what he feels or how he chooses to express that feeling. My choices are to listen or end the conversation, and how I might want to respond. My aim is to be kind and compassionate - whether we end up R or not. So I want to find a way to respond in a way that is kind to myself as well as to him.
I know when he starts these rants I panic and I often try to shut him down by ending the conversation. I have always done that. I've always been totally terrified that if he's angry with me, that's it, we're done. He tells me a lot that he feels he isn't allowed to be angry or upset.
I need to be less reactive, but also respect the fact that my well being matters and whether I SHOULD be able to deal with it in a detached and calm way or not, if I can't, I can't, and that's the reality I need to work with.
Just journalling.
Seeing H yesterday was mainly cordial. He was exhausted and has a big assessment today he was very anxious about. I just got my stuff together and treated him in a warm but distant manner. I mentioned that I'd done some changes to the routine and what I expected from Eldest (so he knew what he was supposed to do chores-wise while I was out) and he sneered and made a sarcastic comment. I said, 'That's not okay. You can leave if you want. But if you're here we all need respect from you,' and he didn't respond at all - but he did act a lot more respectful after that. It was fine when I got back - I gave him a hug and said I knew he was stressed and I wished him well for tomorrow. He sent goodnight text message - which is starting to become a usual thing for him.
I know he gets sarcastic when he feels threatened - it is his passive aggressive way of communicating something is happening that he doesn't like. I will never ever ever be subject to it without saying something ever again - I just can't. I can't stand by while he makes catty and mean remarks - totally unprovoked - about my child. Having said that, I was telling him off like he was a child (my tone was really calm and direct, I wasn't shouting or whining) and that doesn't feel good either. I was prepared to kick him out and stay in with the kids if he wasn't able to act respectfully towards them and me in my home - that's my boundary and I think he knew it.
Suggestions?
I think you handled it pretty well, if someone is behaving childishly then they need that boundary. And you repaired it afterwards by expressing warmth and concern for him. Understanding why he's behaving badly doesn't mean you let him get away with it. If you'd expressed yourself in an angry or defensive way then that wouldn't have been helpful, but it sounded like you were assertive and calm about it. What is wrong with being calm and direct when calling out bad behaviour? Is it too unnatural for you?
Yeah - it really is. I know in the past I would have tried to either convince him that he was in the wrong, or started weeping and wanting him to apologise and take it back. It was different - I was just calm and said it wasn't acceptable if he was going to be in the house, and left it at that. I don't want to make excuses for him - I can understand that he feels me giving the Eldest responsibilities is a bit of a trigger point for him (he always felt I was far too lax - and I think he had a point) but I'm not interested in arguing about it any more. I am making changes and giving him information about the kids and he can have whatever opinions and feelings he likes, but his conversation with me must be respectful if I am going to participate in it. What was different was me saying it was unacceptable then just letting it lie as well. In the past I might have harped on about it and tried to extract some kind of apology from him. I didn't do that - I just got on with getting ready, went out, and was cordial when I got back. I can see he was very wary about that.
Benito - I understand you don't think the way I am doing things is correct or helpful. Can you make a suggestion as to what would be better in terms of validating well and setting a boundary where there is emotional abuse going on?
Hi,
At the end of the day you can pick and choose what advise you follow, because at the end of the day all of the tips you follow on here are sign posts in the right direction rather than i.e. you need to do this for success.
In my scenario - I kept all conversation and face to face contact to an absolute minimum. It was not lengthy and it was factual.
I didnt ignore things or act cold.. however i completley removed myself from the relationship from a mental point of view.
In all honesty I probably treated her like a work colleague.
This kept things emotion free, factual and what was best for me.
Alot of people are scared to do that because they fear it will push the other person away. However, in reality that NEEDS to happen. There needs to be a complete separation before any rebuilding or changes in mindset will occur.
I had 8 months of two or three text messages a week before she noticed a genuine change had occured and then was curious to start talking and dating and getting to know each other again. But as I said alot of people wont do that as they want to find a softer and less painful way of dealing with the situation they are in. But for me it is the only way.
I am 16 months on now from our recon; we are happier, both have better jobs, have a new house, bought a puppy and things are great. Nothing is perfect but a complete restart rekindled everything. But it was long haul and natural rather than forced through panic.
I am not saying I know the truth or some sort of oracle - however my wife and I have discussed this at length and the main reason she even considering recon - was the fact that she had time to breath - time to think... her interest in what I was up to grew.. and because I kept quiet and focused on myself.. it allowed her to wonder if she was making a mistake and it all build from there.
But without a shadow of a doubt - for me, emotional and mental separation is key to this process. Not cold and harsh but factual and with a mindset of - If this doesnt work i am fine regardless. Make peace with the worse case scenario and you are halfway there
Thanks Benito, I understand what you are saying and I am glad that it worked out for you. I am glad you and your wife are on better terms and finding your way back together!
My question is specifically about validating. How I can validate, according to DB advice, and how I can have a boundary where emotional abuse is concerned. I am still thinking about that and I think I am doing a little bit better. I don't initiate contact, but I want to know how best to respond to contact from H.
So for example - yes, I can treat him like a work colleague. But if a work colleague was sarcastic or belittling towards me, what would I do? I don't know, because I can't genuinely say it has happened. Would I validate that or just leave the room? I'd probably report it to HR but I guess that isn't applicable here!
Thanks Benito, I understand what you are saying and I am glad that it worked out for you. I am glad you and your wife are on better terms and finding your way back together!
My question is specifically about validating. How I can validate, according to DB advice, and how I can have a boundary where emotional abuse is concerned. I am still thinking about that and I think I am doing a little bit better. I don't initiate contact, but I want to know how best to respond to contact from H.
So for example - yes, I can treat him like a work colleague. But if a work colleague was sarcastic or belittling towards me, what would I do? I don't know, because I can't genuinely say it has happened. Would I validate that or just leave the room? I'd probably report it to HR but I guess that isn't applicable here!
What would you say or do if someone was treating or speaking to your daughter in the same way he does to you?
I have literally no idea. Honestly. I don't get this kind of treatment from anyone else in my life. It just doesn't happen. If you have a suggestion, I'd love to hear it.
I am following the suggestions for validating from the sticky and have given examples earlier in my thread. Yail suggested that I was not actually validating, but enabling emotional abuse. My question is about how to tell the difference, and feedback on how to respond to abuse, where a boundary is appropriate and not validation. I tried to set a boundary in response to his sarcasm last night and I've also outlined that earlier in this thread.
I suspect if I was detached more, I'd not care about his silly opinions about my parenting decisions or my personality or our past. I'd just shrug and laugh it off. I'm not there yet and whether I should be there or not is another matter - the fact is, I am just not. I can work on my behaviour even if my feelings don't follow - so I am asking for suggestions about actions I can take in these situations.
Maybe the line lies somewhere between the content of/feelings behind what he says and the way he says it? I’m thinking of a strategy I sometimes use with my 3 year old daughter when she’s behaving in a way I don’t like and I can tell she’s tired/hungry/upset about something. It sounds something like “Please don’t talk to me that way, it’s rude and it hurts my feelings. If you can’t stop doing that I’ll have you go in your room for a few minutes” then blah blah blah she reacts and I deal with it. Then I turn back to her and address whatever feelings I know she is dealing with. Obv slightly different for an adult, but the point being that maybe it’s not all so black and white, and in some instances there is room for setting the boundary as well as validating whatever may be valid...? I’m not sure I’m qualified to give advice on this topic, just a thought
I have literally no idea. Honestly. I don't get this kind of treatment from anyone else in my life.
Yes you do know.
You wouldn't put up with it.
You put up with this now because you have built a story/scenario around it that makes you accept it - but you know it isn't right.
Forget advise from other people - look at yourself.
You say -
I'm not there yet and whether I should be there or not is another matter - the fact is, I am just not
You are were ever you want to be. That statement is a get out clause, an excuse to stay in that middle ground where you arent doing much about it - but thinking about it enough to justify it to yourself.
People hate doing things they dont want to do.. i.e.. a run first thing in the morning sounds good on paper.. but when that alarm goes off at 5am its a different story. Similar story here - you know you would not put up with this from anyone else - so dont.
The reason you are is because your trying to make a relationship work rather than doing what is best for you and your self worth. Why would anyone put a relationship before their own self worth? because they are afraid.
You dont need this board - you need you. And you need to start acting on what you know is right rather than researching.
You come first.. and if a relationship follows then fantastic. If not.. the strength you gain from having some self respect and looking the pain and loneliness in the face is a strength that NOBODY else can replicate. The funny part is that when you do take that jump mentally... after a couple of months you wonder why you put up with all that sh*t in the first place
Thanks for trying, Benito. I'm grateful for you taking the time to share your experience and perspective.
The fact is, I'm not putting up with it. Short of preventing him seeing his children - which I would not do, and which would involves me being present for at least a two minute hand-over given the age of the Youngest - I am going to need to find a positive and healthy way to respond to him. That will involve working on myself, certainly. It will involve reducing unnecessary contact - absolutely. It will also involve learning to validate, as DB suggests, and also learning to set boundaries. I think when you say 'not putting up with it' you mean setting boundaries, but what I'm after is guidance in how to discern the difference between emotional abuse and feelings that need validating, and suggestions of how to do both. HOW to set boundaries. HOW to find the wording. I appreciate you attempting to help but right now I am after practical suggestions than your attempts to give a 2x4.
Thanks Hope. I understand what you're saying totally. There's a line, isn't there, between validating a feeling (he can feel whatever he likes - he's entitled to that) and accepting a behaviour. I can accept his frustration or anger and validate that, but I will not tolerate certain behaviours from him. I guess I don't really need to communicate my boundary to him. It might be something I don't need words for. I can demonstrate my boundary by refusing to continue conversations where he behaves in ways that are unacceptable to me.
Now I'm typing, I remember my IC going through this with me a couple of months ago. She recommended when he went off on one of his rants just saying quietly, 'you may be right, I'll consider it,' then getting out of there. There's no defensiveness, no argument, no placating or pacifying or attacking. It is a peaceful way of acknowledging what he's said and getting out of the conversation. And whether or not I do consider it later, in a calmer and more private moment, is up to me. And what he thinks of me in that moment - well, isn't my business and isn't as important as just getting away from the behaviour. I wish I hadn't forgotten it - I'll have to get it tattooed somewhere because I imagine it will come in useful to me.
I don't actually expect to see him or have much contact with him at all for a few days - perhaps the next week. I have much GAL planned though, which I am looking forward to.
Journalling.
A peaceful evening and morning so far. I've come a long way - I now enjoy my alone time, and spend it doing things that please me, instead of feeling abandoned and alone. Those feelings come and go sometimes - but they are much less frequent.
Went to bed early last night with an audiobook. I'm sleeping really well recently. Woke up early and did some meditating and then dealt with kids.
Dilly, you will be pleased to note that Eldest is now doing his own packed lunch without complaint. It's the tiny changes like that which make the morning a bit more peaceful and stop me feeling so much of a doormat to everyone's needs! As the weeks pass I can see more and more how I acted both as a wife and how I act still as a mother are driven by a fear of other people's anger. I hope to carry on working on that - small steps but progress is being made.
I spent most of this morning getting muddy in the park with the dog. Ran into a friend and had a brief chat, which was nice. I'm going to do my reading now (one of my goals) and this afternoon I will work and do some life admin. I hate doing life admin. Very boring. But needs must.
What a lovely update! Well done on the packed lunch thing, that's a hard habit to break!
As mothers we get GUILTED so much by society about so many different things, it's tough to get past that and acknowledge that you're doing your best with where you are. Once I had a school teacher ring me because she'd done an audit of lunch boxes and she was concerned that ds2 wasn't getting enough in his lunch. She said 'he's only got small roll with nothing on it and a packet of apple crisps in there, that's not enough calories' and I said 'it's a home-made wholemeal roll and he would have peanut butter on it but you don't let them, and he packed it himself so obviously he thinks it's enough, plus he had two large crumpets and peanut butter for breakfast, why don't you let him judge how hungry he is?' I think he was 11 at the time and had been doing his own lunch for YEARS! I was sooooo angry at this woman ringing me up to tell me I was an inadequate mother. I also noticed she wasn't ringing his dad...
Hooray for decent sleep and enjoying alone time! I'm mostly ok unless I feel unsteady, last week being somewhere really crowded and feeling sad and sleep deprived made me feel actually desperately lonely, far more than being at home. I got over it by chatting to new people and learning new things, but it was a real pang. Enjoy your reading and focus on how good having done the life admin will feel. Sometimes I set aside a whole day to do stuff like this, I think Gretchen Rubin calls it something like 'an ugly day' because you do ALL the horrible things at once and it makes it easier and you feel so accomplished
I think the less I see him or hear from him, the less wobbly I feel. I can't think about that too hard today - I want a break from cogitating about the state of my marriage - but looking over my journal and threads on this site it is very clear to me that a) the less I see him the better I feel and b) when I see him I am often (though not always - it is a mixed and inconsistent bag!) disappointed, upset or subject to behaviour that isn't acceptable to me anymore.
That's funny, that's not how I feel most of the time, I have the odd difficult time with dh but also times when I enjoy being with him. Is it because he is so stressed out with this work stuff? Or because you don't really see each other properly, just at home with lots of negative memory stuff and not out together as two people talking?
Enjoy your break from cogitating
Sometimes it is because of how he treats me - when he is very distant and cold, which I find upsetting - it triggers an urge to ask for reassurance from him, which I have to work to wrestle with. Even when I'm successful at restraining myself, the effort is exhausting. And when I'm not, he gets irritated (understandably enough), and that's upsetting to me.
When he's a bit more present and active, I am on edge, not knowing how to respond and not really being able to enjoy his company because there's no security or dependability in it - I don't mean in the R, or him not living here - I mean his mood. He can be happy and enjoying himself with the kids, then the slightest little thing can trigger a rant about how awful I am and how terrible our marriage was, or sneering nasty sarcasm, or just utter coldness and withdrawal. This still happens fairly regularly. Me telling him Eldest was going to be helping out more with the morning chores triggered nastiness and sarcasm about him. Me asking him if he'd arranged for the kids to see his parents on Easter Sunday triggered a 20 minute tirade about how I was too ashamed of myself and my own terrible behaviour to be in contact with his parents, then two days of me being upset and him sulking about it... he reads a lot into fairly innocent things and reacts to that, and I have no way of predicting what innocent thing will set him off. So I find myself on guard against all of that, trying to manage my behaviour and his so as not to trigger it, or just withdrawing from him and doing something in another room entirely so as to get some relief from my anxiety.
I think the problem is my expectations and desires, and my fear of his moods. And while I can't really control those emotions right now - though I hope to get there - I do get a huge amount of relief from them when I am not around him.
I guess I find it hard not to say what is on my mind. He's said he wants to come home and work on things when he finishes this work (by my reckoning that would be at the end of this month). He says he wants us to try MC with the family therapist we saw with the kids. He said - the last time I saw him - that he wanted us to shop around and buy a new bed for when he comes home. I try not to ready too much into statements like this (it is very hard) and I don't say what I want to say - which is some version of: 'okay - but you know you're not coming home unless and until there are huge changes in how you treat me, don't you? So have you got past blaming me and having temper tantrums at me and are you ready to tell me what strategies you've got in place to manage your own moods and improve your side of things?' and 'you recall you walked out of the last session with the family therapist before it was over and slammed the door because she challenged you on the way you were speaking to Eldest and the way you were obstructing the process?' and 'how about you tell me you're sorry for how much you've hurt me, and you understand how little trust I have in you, and you're committed to working on that, rather than giving me a laundry list of things I have to change in order to make sure your moods don't erupt?' but I never say any of those things. And a lot of the time I want to.
Ah. Today is a peaceful day. I had a good night's sleep last night. He sent his goodnight message as I was drifting off but I didn't want to wake up so didn't respond until this morning. Youngest wanted to speak to him on the phone this morning so I arranged that but didn't participate in the conversation myself. I didn't do my life admin yesterday (my bad) so today is going to be an UGLY DAY where I get it done. This isn't a 180 - I've always been the one to do all the house paperwork, so I'm just dragging my heels because it is boring and I am in a lazy mood.
There's an awful lot of blame and resentment in there Alison. You can't make him change, all you can do is work on your side of things and either he will respond to those changes or not.
How is he supposed to forgive you for your past behaviour if you can't forgive him? Someone has to start first, and you're in the better position right now to start. Forgiveness is hard, and it's ongoing, and it takes time, but it's for you as much as for him or your relationship. The past is the past, you can't change it, you can only learn from it and then let it go.
Oh yes - lots of blame and resentment on my side. Absolutely. Some of it from things that are in the past, yes - but a guardedness because some of that behaviour still continues when I see him now. So it's all mixed in together. We can't piece until I can forgive and let go of resentments - and that's on me. And I find it extraordinarily hard to forgive behaviour I am still needing strategies to deal with in the present - it is still going on. It's chicken and egg for me, and probably for him too. However I cogitate this, and whatever mood I am in when I cogitate, I still come to the conclusion that time separate to work on myself and protect myself from the way he continues to be right now is better for me and perhaps for him too.
Journalling. Mood taken a bit of a dip today. Two things, I think. First - a friend last night encouraging me to start dating. It's been about five months since H moved out, we had a terrible marriage for a couple of years prior to that, I see no signs of things being repaired any time soon and the temptation to pull the plug and go and have some fun is there. I don't want to do that to my children and whatever my H has done, we are married and I want to act married until I am not married. But for some reason it got me feeling lonely in a way that I haven't felt for a long time - for that kind of romantic attention and validation, I suppose. I am seeing a lot of my friends (women) but there is something different about being wanted - desired, I guess - that I have been missing for a long time. I try not to think about it too much. But it was in my heart last night and that got me thinking about his EA, and I had a sleepless night. But it will pass and I have plans for today so no moping.
H got in touch last night - he's been texting most evenings after work. He said he felt depressed and low and just wanted this work project to be over. I usually text back but because it was unusual for him to disclose himself like that I called him back last night and he sounded awful. When he's low he is totally withdrawn and remote (or in attack mode) and it does frighten me. I just listened and tried to validate and encourage. He wasn't being critical or mean - he often does when he's feeling exhausted or low - but actually just talking about his own day and feelings, which is new, so I listened and was as kind as I could be. It was a short call. I offered to vary the childcare arrangements for today so he picks up Youngest a bit later so he can sleep more and perhaps get some exercise, so we agreed to that. I can see from the texts he's sent me this week he has tried hard to be present and ask questions about me and the children and show care and affection despite going through a terrible time himself. I wish he didn't just withdraw or attack when he feels low, but I only wish that because it makes me feel bad so perhaps that's selfish of me. Withdrawing is tolerable, attacking isn't - and he didn't attack.
Anyway, I will see him for handover tonight. Will explain to Youngest today that Daddy isn't feeling well and needs a bit of time extra to sleep but will see him later.
Gosh, that sounds like a very vulnerable thing for him to have done, Alison. And I think you handled it well. Please don't get your hopes up too much, my dh made a huge effort during his busy time and I had hopes that would continue and things would improve after he had recovered, but actually in some ways he has withdrawn more since then. I don't think people recover that quickly after a prolonged period of stress.
I know exactly how it feels to want that feeling of being desired. And actually last year before BD I did feel that from dh, so very confusing but it was lovely to feel wanted and now I miss it even more than when my marriage wasn't going well and I didn't have it. Every so often I think maybe I will just move on and find someone, and then I check myself and think patience dilly, patience. 5 months is not that long, I'm coming up for 9 and just now realising that if we R it will still be a long way away. Sigh. The milestones are possibly the most difficult, if it gets to September and things haven't progressed a lot with my sitch then I can't see how I could keep standing. Then again, if it gets to our 25th anniversary in July without improvement I can't see that either.
Stay strong, keep your expectations low, be assertive but kind. Wow, that is all so hard isn't it?
I think I'm just in a selfish and self-pitying mood. He is certainly not flawless - not at all - but he's also suffering and I feel for him, but I also hate it when he's like this because he means he isn't available for me. I don't like being selfish like that, but there you go. I can add it to my list of things to work on. I feel self pitying because I want someone to be there for me, for someone to want me, and that isn't happening right now. Me and probably most others on this site. I think I just need a long walk and a coffee and then to get busy doing other things.
Too right, pity parties are just awful. You're right to want someone to be there for you, but feeling like a victim is a powerless place to be. I hope the long walk helps, exercise often does. I'm off out for a quick run myself before I leave.
He can be happy and enjoying himself with the kids, then the slightest little thing can trigger a rant about how awful I am and how terrible our marriage was, or sneering nasty sarcasm, or just utter coldness and withdrawal. This still happens fairly regularly. Me telling him Eldest was going to be helping out more with the morning chores triggered nastiness and sarcasm about him. Me asking him if he'd arranged for the kids to see his parents on Easter Sunday triggered a 20 minute tirade about how I was too ashamed of myself and my own terrible behaviour to be in contact with his parents, then two days of me being upset and him sulking about it... he reads a lot into fairly innocent things and reacts to that, and I have no way of predicting what innocent thing will set him off. So I find myself on guard against all of that, trying to manage my behaviour and his so as not to trigger it, or just withdrawing from him and doing something in another room entirely so as to get some relief from my anxiety.
it is often said here that they go through the same playbook. No matter what I did it was wrong. He would find fault no matter what. Went for a bike ride with them I was being clingy, didn't go for a bike ride I was being sulky. But if you flip it around and everything you do is wrong, then you might as well what makes you happy (or in any case, do what feels right and true to who you want to be).
I think the problem is my expectations and desires, and my fear of his moods. And while I can't really control those emotions right now - though I hope to get there - I do get a huge amount of relief from them when I am not around him.
Time and distance. You have said yourself you are less anxious when you are not around him. Your moods are at the mercy of his moods. You both start of wanting an interaction to go well, something happens (trust, broken expectations, a small slight), then he goes back to being shouty and you go back to feeling rejected and wanting reassurance. Leave him be until you are strong enough to not let the rejection sting you. He will not like it, but he will respect you for it. You cannot have a relationship without respect - believe me I know.
H got in touch last night - he's been texting most evenings after work. He said he felt depressed and low and just wanted this work project to be over. I usually text back but because it was unusual for him to disclose himself like that I called him back last night and he sounded awful. When he's low he is totally withdrawn and remote (or in attack mode) and it does frighten me.
This is him offering you a crumb and you biting his hand. I think I would have text back something like "That sounds awful. Let me know if you want to talk about it". Then if he calls, listen and validate. If he doesn't, oh well.
I personally find if our interactions go on for too extended a period, some of that anxiety/fear/silence comes back so I tend to limit the interactions. Time and space.
The advice often given here is to not make yourself as available. There was a part of me that thought that was a little 'game playing' but it isn't. It is self preservation. Give yourself the space to heal.
I think you're right, FS. The phone call went all right, in the end, but it was because we kept it very short. I don't doubt that if we'd have been in each other's company for longer I'd have done something to irritate or upset him - even if that was only my obvious anxiety about irritating or upsetting him. I choose to try to see him more kindly - as someone who is going through a hard time attempting to seek support from someone who he also resents and does not trust, rather than someone out and out manipulative, but whatever his motivations or plans, what is best for me is still the same, I think.
I feel better after getting out a bit. Less self pitying. I do need time and space. I think I wobble a bit when I think about how close it is until he finishes his big bit of work and how I need to manage my expectations as to what will happen after that. I am trying to do that - I really am - but I suspect I have a nasty shock coming and some more grieving to do when he doesn't just dust himself off from his stress and start acting the way I want him to act. Booking the time away for myself was part of that - to take my out of the way, to focus on myself, to get entirely away from him (and the kids, to be honest) and have some focussed solitude and self care.
I am afraid. I don't mind admitting that. I'm less afraid of him these days and more afraid of what little I will accept should he ask to come back in a few weeks' time.
We all have a lot of fear, Alison. In your case you have a lot of power to work out what you will accept and what you won't accept if he asks to come back. For starters you don't have to accept him coming back at all. And if you do accept him coming back you can have certain boundaries. But it sounds like you need to move super slowly if he does come back. Like months and months and months. Is he in IC? That could be a condition. You could have certain milestones, like dating once a week for a couple of months, and if that goes well then move forward to the next stage. It's not all or nothing, it's both of you working hard on yourselves and on your relationship to make yourselves and your marriage the best it can be.
I've been thinking a lot about what me moving forward with my dh would look like (which sometimes I think is me being delusional given his signals, though they are mixed! 'Let's spend the weekend together! No you can't see my flat!'), and I've come to the conclusion that if we R things will have to CREEP forwards in tiny stages...Because it took decades for things to go wrong in our marriage, so expecting things to turn around in a short time will not end well. Behaviours take time and effort to change, to wear new healthy grooves in your brain instead of the old destructive ruts.
I try not to think about it - about what my red lines would be, and what I need, and how I'd want it to go - because it feels like counting eggs and perhaps trying to control an outcome I am not in control of.
Having said that, I don't want to be entirely passive either. I don't want to give him an ultimatum, but I do want to clearly understand what he is and isn't offering so I can decide whether I want it or not.
Perhaps when I am away at the end of this month that is one of the things I can reflect on. I need to balance accepting who he is - an imperfect person as I am - and working on my own shortcomings and processing the blame and resentment and lack of forgiveness I feel - all that is my job - with having some basic standards and boundaries for ways I will and won't be treated. He has said he wants to go to MC and when he does talk about our situation or the future, the sense of blame he had - the resentment about being asked to leave, the blaming Eldest for all our problems - seems to have in the main, faded away a bit.
I had a rough day yesterday. Couldn't really get my head in the game and spent a lot of time moping and weeping. I was spinning, I suppose, and convinced myself that the EA woman was still on the scene and that he'd BD me he was with her once he'd done his work and didn't need me to be so co-operative when it came to doing all the childcare. There's no actual evidence for that at all - he works and sleeps and that's it - but it was a horrible place for my head to be in. Still, I didn't contact H or let the kids see I was upset and a sad day now and again is okay.
We had a cordial chat at drop off. He's lost weight since I last saw him (which was only five or six days, I think, and I remember thinking that he'd lost weight when I saw him then) and he really did look awful. He talked to me a bit about how stressed and anxious he was. I validated. He was a bit snappy and impatient with Youngest, who was a bit annoyed at not seeing him for longer and I tried to strike the balance between staying out of it, not criticising him and supporting him as a co-parent. It's all attached to this one big work task and I said I knew he could do it - that's true - he is more able to compartmentalise and work hard than anyone else I know, and his perfectionism is bad for him but really good for his work. I am worried about him, but other than do most of the childcare and not gripe about it - which I am, and we will have to come up with a more equitable arrangement once this work is over, next month - there's not much else I can do for him.
Just journalling.
Had an unusual conversation with H yesterday at drop off for Youngest. Enlightening.
He was taking the dog out with Youngest for a couple of hours while I did some errands. When I got back I asked where they went and if they'd had a good time. He said he didn't want to walk close to home as he felt ashamed about being here, being seen by the neighbours. He'd had a conversation while I was out with our next door neighbour, who'd commented on him not being around much. He'd told the neighbour he'd moved out at the start of the year, and apparently they'd had a bit of a conversation about that - he didn't go into detail. I think he felt a bit embarrassed at the thought of neighbours knowing our business. He was telling me about that - communicating, I think, his feelings. It wasn't done in a blaming or critical way. I didn't respond well at all. He said something about moving house, or us thinking about moving house, and I said 'is that a condition you're making of us sorting this out' and he was immediately exasperated with me and started saying things like 'I'm not standing here for the next half hour while you have a go at me,' (I was doing nothing of the sort) and he went on in this vein for a while until I said 'shall we just leave it? Give me a hug before you go,' and he did and it was okay.
I've been reflecting on that a lot. One of the things that he says is that in the future he wants us to be better at supporting each other. I know that one of the things I want to be different for our future - if there is one - is that I want us both to be more honest. And I can see from this interaction my part in the lack of honesty in our interactions. He was being honest with me about his feelings, and because I didn't like it and it made me feel a bit insecure, I asked a question which was pretty much designed to extract some reassurance from him. I wasn't offering him any kind of support and instead his expression of something hard triggered a need for support in me - not only a need, a demand, even. And he reacted angrily - assuming that he'd be put through the wringer for half an hour and forced into an interaction he didn't want.
I think for honesty to take place - real honesty, which I want in our future and will be essential to repair - then I have to be able to validate his feelings even when I don't like them and I have to take care of myself when he's sharing something difficult and not expect him to put his feelings to one side to take care of me. And there's work for him to do too - in actually disclosing himself to me (which he was doing - I can see that now) in ways that are non blaming, not critical, and don't involve verbal and emotional abuse. I can see that he's been working on that recently even though it isn't perfect. Obviously I'm far from perfect too.
I don't think the issue is moving house or the problem with the neighbours knowing or not. Or at least, that isn't anything I can do anything about. I think the problem is me not being able to stand steady on my own feet when he's wobbling, him not trusting me to do that (not trusting it is safe to wobble, or be honest about his fears) and how I can get myself to that place.
Lots of food for thought. We left it on good terms. He called in the evening and I told him a little bit of this - just my understanding of what was needed (from me - I didn't comment on his side of things). I'd had some trouble with Eldest and updated him on that, and he made some suggestions for changes in a really positive and uncritical and non blaming way - it was night and day from the way he usually communicates, and I thanked him for it. He sent affectionate goodnight text message and I replied saying that I was glad that he'd remembered - that being able to count on that small thing went a way to healing what was hurt.
I am not sure if we've made a leap forwards or I have made a leap backwards. I feel okay. I have GAL plans for today. I sent encouraging text this morning but kept it light. I want to focus more on getting myself steady and being able to hold onto myself and not descend into pity parties and panic and demands for reassurance that overwhelm him when he's struggling. I want to learn how to do that. Of course in part for the relationship - but if this doesn't work out I will need to learn to do it anyway. I think it's called growing up. I want to focus on that.
Growing up is hard to do! I'm sorry you had a bad day, but I can sense you getting stronger. We all have bad days occasionally and they are really horrible, but most of the time the bad days get slightly less bad don't they? We are getting stronger all the time. Maybe you're right not to think of the future too much, just live in the moment the best you can because the future is not under our control at all.
Thank you Dilly. I think I am getting stronger. I can't say I've had a great couple of days, but I have had some fresh insight into my own behaviour and something that I want to change about myself and my way of interacting with people - not just H, but generally.
I also need to get a handle on the pity parties. I was out with the kids yesterday and I saw, very plainly, that when they are a bit whingey and negative they are using my playbook. I know I've used sadness and negative feeling to extract care from H in the past, and they've spent their childhoods watching me do that. But I can be as happy as I make up my mind to be and teach them to manage their feelings differently too. We had a bit of a chat about it in the car and came up with a silly code word to use with each other when we spotted moaning and negative behaviour.
I am feeling detached and calm today.
I saw H last night. He finished a big chunk of the project he's been working on and submitted it yesterday. The kids were really excited and wanted to bake him a cake (it was Eldest's suggestion, actually) so I bought them the ingredients for that and let them do it. When H came to see them in the evening, he was obviously utterly exhausted and wasn't as enthusiastic as Eldest wanted - so Eldest got in a bit of a mood. I could see it escalating so I took the kids out with the dog. Asked H to come with us (Eldest really wants this) and he got very reactive and sullen about it - saying he was too tired, didn't feel like being told off, etc etc. So we just went on our own. Spent the walk validating Eldest and settling myself down.
I think he knows full well how deficient he is being as a father - he sees them a couple of hours twice a week at the moment. He barely makes conversation with them. I believe he'd like to - but he just can't. I don't feel angry with him about it, but I also don't feel like enabling it either. Eldest is craving his approval and attention and he is too wrapped up in his own suffering to give it - and that is causing damage to their relationship I can do nothing about. It's actually really sad.
He was still here when we got back. He talked to me a bit - said things would be different in the summer, he'd be a better friend to me, more present, have more fun with the children. I think he sees how much time the kids and I have been spending getting out and about together and what an effect it has had on the household mood and our relationships. I think this was also him acknowledging he'd been a bit of a downer and disappointed the kids. I wish he'd had the humility to acknowledge it to them - I don't care whether he made a fuss of the cake or not but they certainly did - but it is what it is.
I was feeling thoughtful last night. Wondering if I have the balance right between compassion and boundaries. I want to be kind to this man who is clearly suffering. I don't want to leave myself open to the kind of treatment he sometimes dishes out when he is feeling bad. I think I had the balance right last night - I was friendly and neutral - but I do feel a bit troubled sometimes by how hard it is to feel loving towards him right now. I feel sorry for him. I feel sorry for the damage he is doing to the relationships he has with his children. I find it difficult to respect him when he's so self-pitying and self-righteous. He wasn't critical of me but when we were chatting as I cleaned up after dinner, he got animated in having a good moaning session about some mutual friends of ours - and yes, they are a bit irritating, but who isn't - and it was the most animated I'd seen him in weeks, tearing strips off other people. We've bonded like that in the past, me joining in on it, but I didn't feel like it this time and I just made listening noises and let him run out of steam with it. I don't want to bond with him over ridiculing other people. I don't like that side of myself and I want to change it. I don't like that side of him either. The constant critical negativity and finding fault with everything. But there you go. I don't have to like him. I am okay with how I behaved last night.
Today is an admin day. Ugh. But I will concentrate on the accomplished feeling I will have when it is all done!
I know what you mean about not wanting to bond via bitchiness. It's so easy to do and actually very unhealthy for everyone, I've been guilty of it in the past too and is something I've actively changed. My H was also only really animated over the weekend when he was complaining about work politics. I listened, validated and thought how sad it was that it consumes his life and makes him bitter. It takes a lot of effort to focus on the positives in life but it is so worth it.
Good luck with your ugly day
Ugly day going well so far. My tax affairs are in utter chaos but invoices are being sent and order is gradually returning.
I can't judge H for his misery - I've been the worse culprit in our marriage for a very long time, and he's been the one forced to use all his emotional resources to cheer me up. It feels like we've swapped places in some ways. I need to keep myself on positive and solid ground no matter what he's up to.
Bit blue today. I had a really hard IC session yesterday - we were talking about trust, and where I am on that - not just for my marriage but in life more generally. I have always found it very difficult to trust. I can't say that I ever trusted H completely, and I can acknowledge that a lot of the mistakes I made in my marriage were about either punishing H for not being 100% perfect by my standards, or of trying to 'make' him act in ways so I could feel more trust in him. Of course I have objective reasons - after the deception around the EA - not to feel trusting of him right now - but it goes back much earlier than that.
I guess I am very sad at the reality, which is I have little to no trust in H right now and some days I struggle to trust in myself - my own capacity to take care of myself and make good decisions. Spirituality helps - connecting to something bigger, something that won't let me down - but the challenge that lies ahead is about developing that trust in my own capacities and being able to accept that in a close intimate relationship, there is risk, and no-one is 100% trustworthy and I need to accept that. This isn't really about H - I have excellent reasons not to trust him and that's not likely to change any time soon - but more about my personal development.
I guess I am processing feelings of loss and grief. I did used to feel relatively safe with H and I have no idea how or if I would ever feel that again, with him or anyone else. And yet I know that I need to rely on myself first and foremost, and that most adults who are single or in relationships have to find a way to cope with being let down, in big and small ways, and move on from it in positive ways. Being happy alone or happy in an R will require me to dig deep and find some trust in myself and my own resilience, and it feels like an insurmountable task today.
I also feel a bit lonely. I have friends. But I miss having open and intimate conversations with H and feeling safe to share what is on my mind. I miss being able to tell him what is going on with me and not fear being criticized or attacked for it. All that is gone and has been gone for a long time and right now it's much better and wiser for me to be distant with him - it's what he wants, and it's what is best for me. But it is lonely. I miss that connection with him. I do have close friendships but I don't have an intimate partner and I miss that a lot today.
That does sound hard, but sometimes accepting where you are is what allows you to move on from there. So you know you need to work on building trust in yourself, time to get started. I was listening to a really interesting podcast with Rick Hanson on something like this this morning (Jordan Harbinger podcast I think it was), all about building resilience and being able to rely on yourself even if you can't rely on others. It was one of those episodes which will go into my regular listens I think, it just seemed so useful and practical.
And much empathy for the longing for an intimate partner too, we'll get there eventually x
Well, this is very strange.
H came to see me this evening. We took the dog out on a walk together to talk without the kids hearing.
He has changed his place of work so he will no longer see the EA woman (admittedly they worked in different departments so he didn't see her that much, but all the same) and so he will have more regular, sociable hours. He'll be working fewer hours, and not evenings or night shifts. He says he's done this because he wants me to be sure he is having no contact with EA woman and so it is easier for us to schedule a regular appointment with a MC. He said he told his manager that things were really bad in our marriage and he wanted to be freer to devote time and energy into fixing it.
I was so surprised I didn't know what to say to him. For him to do this without me asking him to is a big deal, but for him to disclose personal stuff to his line manager is so out of character I can't quite believe it. I just stayed very quiet. I said I felt a bit tearful and needed to think for a bit. We talked about other things for a while - just chit-chat regarding the kids and work - we were only out about half an hour.
Suggestions of where to go from here?
Suggestions of where to go from here?
All I know of your H is what you've posted here, but based on that I trust him about as far as I can throw him. I would suggest not doing anything different except attending MC, and only do that if HE sets it up. Just tell him if he is willing to set up MC then you will go. Don't make any promises to him and don't buy into any of his promises.
Okay. That's sort of along the lines of what I was thinking, actually.
Had a good day today. Tried to put everything out of my mind and just live my own life, which was easier today than it has been the past few days. Now it is evening and I'm thinking about what H said last night and I feel pretty thrown.
I guess I am happy that he's taken this concrete action and done it without my asking him. It's a big deal. I think my hanging back and saying I'd think about it was the best thing, and I need more time to think about it. But if I am going to go ahead, I want him to set up the appointments. I am more flexible than he is. I also want us to be splitting the cost 50/50.
I am hugely doubtful he has the ability to communicate without blame and viciousness nor to respond to my asking for anything without blame-shifting, point scoring or other types of evasion. I am so done with the way he communicates. We can be cordial enough so long as I don't set any boundaries. Any hint of 'no' or 'that isn't acceptable' and he returns to old patterns. I've seen small changes and a moderation in the level of spite and contempt, but it is still there and I am still scared of it and my fear still shapes my behaviour. Repair isn't possible until he learns to do differently and I learn not to be afraid. Still, perhaps a good MC might help teach him that.
I am doubtful of my own ability not to get emotional and reactive and, in my own way, shut him down when he says things I find upsetting or frightening. Or try to manage his moods from my fearful place. I'm not sure I am 'there' yet. I am working on my 180s but I don't yet feel I am strong enough to draw a strong boundary and that I'd be consistent in refusing to accept unacceptable behaviour from him (or myself). But as above, perhaps a good MC might help teach me that, and I am addressing all of this in my IC.
I don't trust him. I worry he's up to something. But I have trust issues I need to do more work on aside from whether he's being honest or not. If we are to ever end up piecing things together, then I am going to need to dig deep and find some trust - and so is he - and I am not sure what signs I should be looking for in him or myself to know he and I are both ready to do that.
I don't think I'll see him until the weekend - maybe not even then.
I guess I am happy that he's taken this concrete action and done it without my asking him. It's a big deal. I think my hanging back and saying I'd think about it was the best thing, and I need more time to think about it. But if I am going to go ahead, I want him to set up the appointments. I am more flexible than he is. I also want us to be splitting the cost 50/50.
That all sounds good. It IS a big deal, but he has dangled the carrot out there before and then yanked it away when you went for it. This is kind of typical of MLCers, they go in and out of the tunnel for quite a while.
I am hugely doubtful he has the ability to communicate without blame and viciousness nor to respond to my asking for anything without blame-shifting, point scoring or other types of evasion. I am so done with the way he communicates. We can be cordial enough so long as I don't set any boundaries. Any hint of 'no' or 'that isn't acceptable' and he returns to old patterns. I've seen small changes and a moderation in the level of spite and contempt, but it is still there and I am still scared of it and my fear still shapes my behaviour. Repair isn't possible until he learns to do differently and I learn not to be afraid. Still, perhaps a good MC might help teach him that.
You are absolutely right to be concerned because that is unlikely to change until he really feels like he has lost you and has to change his ways to get you back. I think you're doing the right thing in not just jumping back into a R with him, and telling him you need time and to think about things. I would avoid having any deep talks with him unless it's in front of a counselor who can mediate if he starts to go off the rails like he is prone to do.
I don't trust him. I worry he's up to something.
Of course you don't, after what you've been through you'd be crazy to trust him! He has got to EARN your trust back. That is on HIM, not you! And it will take a lot of time and changed behavior on his part.
Thanks AS.
I still haven't been in touch with him. Still mulling things over. In terms of trust - I believe that he does want to repair things. He's been consistent about saying that for months. But I am feeling utterly despondent and tearful today. I am not sure a repair is possible. I don't think he has the communication skills - and we're going to need to talk honestly and openly about a lot of hard stuff. He's still in the stage where his reason for doing or saying anything is generally someone else's fault. I can't work with that. I don't want to work with that.
But even if he was able to communicate in a more adult way, there just seems such a lot to work through - so much hurt and anger and resentment. I feel a great sadness today because I am wondering if, deep down, it is really more loving and compassionate towards myself and towards him just to let go and move forward as positively as possible and with as much gentleness and respect as possible.
I am confident I could do that - and I think he would work with me on that. He's a childish man in many respects, but I think if we made the decision to end things, he would not be vindictive or cruel where finances or the children are involved. He's pretty selfish, but I can cope with that - I'm doing everything where the kids are concerned now so it could hardly be worse in practical terms.
I am not confident that a repair is possible. It feels too big and too hard. I don't need to decide anything today and I don't plan to. And I know agreeing to MC with him doesn't guarantee anything. I am just not sure I can put myself through it. We did it last summer and it was awful. I want to ask him what's different - what's changed since we went last summer - but he's so mean when I ask him things that he doesn't want to talk about that I don't dare ask him, and that's no basis to begin MC on.
In my experience, and in reading the experiences of others here and IRL, I think MC only works if both parties want the same outcome, and I don't just mean paying lip service to it, but really truly want the same outcome.
MC hurts because you will be peeling away the layers and exposing all your wounds. MC gives you a forum to voice your resentment. Unless you are both open to hearing these things, then your gut reaction will be to defend, to withdraw or to attack. Is he ready to hear what you have to say ? Is he emotionally mature enough to listen to your pain?
More importantly, are you? I imagine you have come a long way since last summer. You are no longer as drawn into his crazy, but can you sit in a room for an hour and listen to him throw everything but the kitchen sink at you?
If he wants to go to MC, then go, but don't do it with any expectation it will be anything other than a soap box for him. Listen, validate. Don't complain and don't explain. (I know, that sounds like a lot)
Otherwise, I would carry on as you are - focused on becoming a better you (with or without him) and trying to maintain a calm, mature demeanor whenever you're with him.
BTW - You are doing brilliantly. Never doubt how far you've come.
At the moment, I think that MC would involve me listening to him blame me for everything that has gone wrong. I have no evidence at all that he's interested or able to listen. I also don't know I have the ability to cope with listening to more of his bile, or that even if I could cope with it, it would be productive or useful in terms of either R or moving towards an amicable divorce.
But that might just be fear. He has made some small changes, and so have I. I've no idea what inner work he's doing, nor what affect the change in his working circumstances will have on his stress levels and his ability to be empathic.
I think I need more time to figure out how much of my reluctance is fear that I can overcome, and how much of it is wisdom based on evidence.
Alison, I really feel for you. You have been through so much and I can tell you are really, really struggling with what to do here. Your concerns are all 100% legitimate. This is a marriage-saving site but not at the sake of ruining your life. It sounds like you do not want to open yourself up to all that pain and suffering again so here's my advice- don't. You've been doing so much better since adjusting to life without him. Stay on that path. I think he still needs to fall quite a ways and hit rock bottom before he might actually bother to change anything about himself. I think that right now if you go to MC then he's going to do just what you think he will- blame you, gripe about you, get angry if you say one disparaging thing about him. So just table it for now and continue your course. In the future who knows what may happen. But for now I think you know what to do.
Hi Alison,
I have read quite a bit of your sitch but have been hesitant to reply. I want to be mindful of your feelings during this difficult time. So instead of weighing in I thought I would ask you a few questions if that’s alright. If not, that is fine too.
Have you learned/read much on emotional abuse or psychological abuse?
Do you see any parallels in your own M?
Is it possible that DB and other good M saving techniques are not affective when there is abuse involved?
I hope I’m not overstepping here. I was in an abusive R for 6 years. Never violent but a terrible sitch. I didn’t see it when I was in it. I couldn’t. Many, many years later, I see it for what it was now. I wish I had gotten out sooner ...
Warmly,
Buy
Hi Blu
I'd struggle to come up with a crisp definition of what emotional or psychological abuse is, but I know that H has been sarcastic, belittling, has called me names, has done nasty impressions of me while upset, has used the silent treatment (extensively), stonewalled, blame-shifted, gas-lit - at various points in our relationship and increasingly over the past couple of years. He can be quite manipulative and withdraw love and attention to punish me. I consider some of this stuff abusive and all of it unacceptable in the kind of marriage I want.
He is one of the most passive people I have ever met. He is extremely evasive when asked directly what he wants or what he thinks about something, then tends to blame me when he doesn't get what he wants. I'm more expressive and emotional, and tend to be able to say what I want a bit more readily, which means he's felt totally over-ridden and like he's not had any control or agency in our relationship. I can see how he'd think that, and I think I have used his fear of my emotions to control things sometimes, but I also think he's never taken adult responsibility for saying what he wants, and has blamed first his mother for that, then me.
However, I'm not a victim here. I know H would say that a lot of his abusive behaviours were reactions to or caused by behaviour of mine that he'd find abusive. Continuing conversations and arguments after he wanted them to stop, crying or being very upset in front of the children, shouting, asking for too much attention, talking when he wanted to sleep, following him to carry on a conversation when he wanted to leave the room, threatening to throw him out, threatening to leave, etc. As I'm a human being I am probably guilty of emphasising his misdeeds and minimising my own.
I'd say that our distancer-pursuer dynamic got really strongly entrenched, extreme and resulted in some unacceptable behaviour from each of us. I am trying to go 180 on pursuing but I don't think I've been consistent or perfect in this.
I am extremely ambivalent as to whether I want to continue the marriage or not. I feel better for not living with him. I'm crushed with sadness and grief some days, and full of hope at other times, but my general steady and calm feeling happens when I am not in contact with him. When I think about things rationally I see how much responsibility I am taking and how much attention I am paying to my personal growth. I don't see any of that in him at all. When he's not blaming me for his abusive behaviour he's blaming his external circumstances - his work (which does cause him stress) and I am buying that excuse less and less.
Alison
I think you are doing fantastically well. I recognise a lot of what you are saying. For me, grief and acceptance have gone hand in hand.
A couple of weeks ago, I was overcome with an incredible grief and sadness after months of feeling okay. The mistake I made was not accepting it for what it was ie incredible grief and sadness at the death and ending of something. I thought it meant something more and started to attach far too much meaning to it.
For me, ending this R and commencing a formal proceeding is the right thing to do. I had thought if it was the right thing to do, I should be happy about it. Of course, it was nonsense. For me.
I know that the rational thoughts I have are to end this M and that is the right thing to do. I don't like it but it's the right thing to do. I also accept that I am also allowed to feel grief and sadness even though it is the right thing to do.
I was afraid of grieving. Afraid of finally letting go and acknowledging it wasn't coming back. Once I allowed myself to grieve I felt liberated.
The tears and sadness I felt recently were different to the ones felt 10 months ago. Back then they were tears of hurt feelings and shock. Only time showed me the difference between tears of desperation and tears of grief and acceptance.
Give yourself time. You'll know the right thing to do.
Thank you Yorkie.
Feel really really sad again today. Took Youngest out last night and had a lovely time - I left all my worries at home and just concentrated on her, and she's developing into such a bright, witty, lovely little thing. Really enjoyed myself. Came home to a disturbed night and an early morning.
I feel lonely for intimacy - not sex, though that's part of it - but just one of those conversations where you can say what is on your mind safely, knowing that the other person will respond with kindness and understanding - at least most of the time. And that they'll say what's on their mind without attacking or blaming you. I miss saying and feeling 'we' and having a sense of a shared life and shared goals. I have the therapy, and friends, and this board, and my kids, and the dog - all of that matters. And I earn my own money and have my own career and am capable of sorting out all the financial and housing stuff if it comes to that. I'm not afraid of that side of things. But that private two-way connection is totally gone from our relationship and absent from my life and has been, if I am honest, for a long time.
I have been toying with taking a risk and telling him what is on my mind. Telling him I've been incredibly hurt and I am afraid that the therapy will be more of the same, and I am not sure I can cope with it right now. Saying that I care about him, and I understand why he has acted the way he has, but I don't want any more of it and I think the right thing to do is draw a line under things and move on to a divorce as quickly as possible. See what he says. But he seems to experience any act of self disclosure on my part as a demand for something - and he will generally respond to demands with either withdrawal or attack. I suppose there's nothing really he can do or say, even in the most hopeful of my imaginings, that is going to take these feelings away and they are my responsibility to process. And I can't say, hand on heart, that this isn't just more manipulation - that I don't just want him to convince me that he's different, and convince me that by hanging in here and staying in the marriage and trying to repair it, I will be happier and it will be the best decision for the children. I want him to convince me of that, but he can't, and I am failing utterly to convince myself and I am so sad about it.
I think I am grieving. I miss him and he is gone and therapy isn't going to be the place where I see him again because he's just not there.
I hear you Alison
The intimacy thing is massive. But only you know whether it is fantastical on your part and whether it had gone some time ago.
Mine had and so I had to ask myself why. I stopped feeling connection and I didn't care enough to work to put it back. When I look back, I knew it had happened when it was happening and I still didn't care enough to put any work into it. That truth is often masked by the shock of DB and the survival instinct that kicks in with us. That instinct disguised the truth of my M.
So you already know that 'laying it on the table' is not a good idea. Because words are cheap. You are very close to detaching. You are starting to appreciate "I am failing to convince myself" The balance of your dynamic is shifting so that what you want is becoming paramount over what you want to convince him of. Eventually you will separate the two and for me that is detachment.
For me this was the most painful bit. It would have been easier to say that I wanted to wait and stand in many ways rather than have to dig very deep and admit what I wanted. It would have been easier to cling onto what I knew and not allow the reality of a future without him to be realised. I didn't want to accept that what we once were was truly gone; that the person I had known for 30 years had gone. I had to accept the evidence. It is hard.
I really don't think you should say these things to him, because it puts you back not forward, it puts you at risk of rejection and changes this emerging dynamic. Then you'll find yourself at the same point over and over again.
You can act them though. Try them on for size. To truly work out what you want you need this time, distance and introspection.
Don't push those feelings of grief and sadness away. Take yourself off where you can allow them to be if that is possible.
You need still more patience Alison. He seems to be making the right noises, but until he has finished this work and recovered I doubt he'll be in a place for change. Probably best to wait till he's recovered until you think about MC. Let yourself feel the sadness for your old MR (because it's gone) and then pull yourself together and keep on GAL. Feelings pass, that's their nature.
“I'd struggle to come up with a crisp definition of what emotional or psychological abuse is, but I know that H has been sarcastic, belittling, has called me names, has done nasty impressions of me while upset, has used the silent treatment (extensively), stonewalled, blame-shifted, gas-lit - at various points in our relationship and increasingly over the past couple of years. He can be quite manipulative and withdraw love and attention to punish me. I consider some of this stuff abusive and all of it unacceptable in the kind of marriage I want.”
Yes, I agree, these are all forms of abuse. I have read most of your posts and his behavior is unacceptable. Your H is cruel, controlling, resentful, and does not have much insight into his own deplorable behavior. I think he will need to take a good, hard look at himself and make many changes before he can be a decent partner to anyone. This kind of work is grueling and takes many years. First step tho, he has to admit he even has a problem. IMO, MC is about two people coming together and willing to look at their own part. I don’t believe that works with an abuser.
You say that you are not a victim because his behaviors are caused by you or reactions to you. My dear, this is the exact reason that you ARE in fact a victim. He justifies his abuse of you, and you allow it. This is how it works and why the cycle is so incredibly difficult to break. It is also why I said that people can’t see it while they are in it . So pleas read this next sentence over and over.
THERE IS NOTHING A PERSON CAN DO TO CAUSE ABUSE.
Here is the thing, you are not perfect. You have made mistakes - we all have! You might provoke, cry/beg, follow him and be needy, etc. I’ve read your rationale. I hear you. But, he of his own free will, decides how to respond. He has the right to ask for space, to tell you he’s not ok with your behavior or to leave the M. He does not, ever, have the right to abuse you or anyone.
You deserve to feel safe and not as if you will be punished for your own mistakes. You sound as if you can breathe better when he is not around. You don’t have to save your M if it’s not safe for you. Your kids deserve a safe environment too. You are in the hardest stages right now. It will get better as you let go and decide you have had enough of this torture. You will find your stronger, confident, healthier self again one day. I promise she is still in there.
Hugs,
Blu
Thank you ladies. I feel much calmer and more settled today and thinking about your words and suggestions as I was outside with the dog was a big part of that. The support here is amazing.
Yorkie - I will need to reflect more on this - I really need to consider it more carefully. You're a profound woman!
"The balance of your dynamic is shifting so that what you want is becoming paramount over what you want to convince him of. Eventually you will separate the two and for me that is detachment."
I think on balance what I need is more time. I can't ever have another experience like my last experience of MC with him. I think I'm in a different place than I was last summer, but i don't know that he is. And I don't even have a tiny bit of evidence that would make having a bit of faith and taking a well informed risk a sane decision.
I also know that the only peace between us at the moment is when I stick to the very superficial and make no demands on him at all - DBing, basically. We can be very cordial and even have a little joke now and again. I am learning to soothe my own anxiety around his moods. When he turns up tired and exhausted and snappy I get a pounding heart and sweaty palms but what helps is being able just to leave the house or the room or knowing he will only be here half an hour. I can't imagine being stuck in a room with him while he unloads.
I think the only thing that keeps our marriage afloat is if I take responsibility for his abusive behaviours and undertake to change my own behaviour so that he won't be provoked into doing the things I find unacceptable. I still live as if that were true but I know in my heart that it isn't. Each of us always had the choice to behave decently, and any departures from that were always our own responsibility. I can own that and feel genuine remorse for the harms I caused him and my part in the scenes my children witnessed. He's still - I think, though we haven't talked about it for months - stuck in that 'well if you didn't cry I wouldn't need to get so angry' mode.
I will not bring this up with him. He mentioned it yesterday when I saw him with the kids and I just said, very simply, I was in two minds about it and needed to think about it more carefully, but I appreciated him making the effort. I said he could trust me to give it some serious thought and I'd let him know when I had. And that was fine - it was a very gentle and brief conversation. I will think about it more, but I think for me to go forward to MC or any type of R with him I need to be better at maintaining my own boundaries and not being so upset by his moods, and I need to see him taking responsibility and showing some remorse for his behaviour. I am not there yet and neither is he.
I don't feel sad today. Very steady and peaceful and determined to enjoy this time. If I am to work on my marriage in the future, it will be really hard and difficult. Being married itself comes with its ups and downs. Being single and not working on the R is lonely sometimes, but it also has plenty of benefits and I plan to take full advantage of them today and get out and enjoy the sunshine.
Keep going Alison. Sometimes things have to get worse before they get better . You seem very considerate and wise and have owned your own issues. I don’t agree that you should make the sacrifices to own you h’s .
You are a wonderful woman and all I can say is time and patience, you can do it and soon you will be happy and not sad
You sound in a much better place today Alison.
I think the only thing that keeps our marriage afloat is if I take responsibility for his abusive behaviours and undertake to change my own behaviour so that he won't be provoked into doing the things I find unacceptable.
What type of life is it that you take responsibility for his abusive behaviour. His behaviours are on him. Own your faults but do not own his. Treat him as you would like to be treated - with kindness and respect. But you can not expect the same from him. He has his own demons to face - and from the sounds of it, he is not yet ready to face them. He may never be.
Being single is lonely. But there is also freedom. Freedom from anxiety. Freedom from always trying to temper your emotions so that they will 'not provoke' someone else.
I think I'm sad because I do genuinely want to care for him and help him. There's probably all kinds of covert contracts in there and manipulation and needing to be needed and co-dependency. But there's also a man who I love who is in a terrible state. I do want to be a support and comfort to him and I know that because of my own shortcomings I have failed to do that in the past. And right now, no matter how much I'd like to comfort or help him, I don't think I can. He sees everything I do in the worst possible light, he's so critical I doubt there's anything about me he likes or wants right now, when I have tried to comfort or help in practical ways (like cooking him meals for the freezer, getting him stuff from the chemist, etc) he's ended up throwing things back in my face. I think he's probably pretty confused and mixed up and wants comfort, and doesn't understand why he feels critical or scared when I do comforting things - because he can't trust them. I think that's where he is. And I can't help with that. And I'm just sad, because it is a painful place to be for both of us and there's really nothing to do about it right now.
AlisonUK,
I sympathize with your situation. There are many parallels between your sitch and my own. I am also worried about my H. He is choosing his actions, but I feel like he is spiraling out of control. He has struggled with addiction in the past, whether it be pain killers, alcohol, tobacco, or porn. He lost his six figure job in 2010 due to these behaviors. It was devastating to our family, but we worked hard and got through it. What I now recognize is that there was still work to do. We moved forward too fast. With exception to the pills (as far as I know) all of these things are back in his life and gaining momentum. He is spending $ like crazy which is scary as it is either drugs, hotel rooms, or it could just be reckless spending. I have opened my own account and will be asking him to do the same.
We differ in that it sounds like your H is making progress towards you, my H is not. My H is the opposite of critical at this point. For the first several weeks he blamed me and our marriage for all of his behaviors. That we were damaged beyond repair. Last week he changed his tune. He stated that he is mostly to blame for these issues, that underneath it all there is something wrong with him- the lying, hiding things, etc. That he often tries to make me out to be the bad guy, but he knows that it's not true. That I have stuck by him through thick and thin, and he wishes he could do the same for me (crumbs).
He blames his unhappiness in our marriage for the reason he needs space, a break. Yet from everything I've read, it is the affair talking. There is not doubt in my mind that he is unhappy, and was before the OW. We were disconnected and a series of events began to pile up and overwhelm him. Yet his words, actions, and addictive personality tell me his desire to leave is fueled by his A. He says that he wants to leave, but continues to try to keep the door open. I think perhaps I need to shut that door and work on me.
I also feel like I will have peace if he leaves. I have turned my ringer off on my phone b/c the "ding" gives me anxiety. His texts are friendly and kind, but I just want him to stop. The same is true with our home phone. I am annoyed every day when he calls.
You are so strong. Keep up the hard work. Your posts inspire and comfort me as I can see you becoming stronger each day!
Thank you CL. I don't feel strong - I have many days where I get the kids off to school then sit in the car outside my house wailing because I don't want to go in to the empty place. I get tears in my eyes most nights when I load the dishwasher and there's one plate too few. His clothes are still here and sometimes I want to sleep with them and sometimes I want to burn them. I am certainly not strong!
What has helped is time, and making my mind up to enjoy as much of my time and my days and my children and my work as possible. I am heartbroken at the state of my marriage and I don't know what will happen and the uncertainty is terrible. But I am also fit and healthy and financially safe and my children love me and have their health. I enjoy my work. I have plenty each day to be grateful for and that has helped.
I see my H is struggling and very very very badly wants me to be on his side. I can be on his side by doing my 180s and taking brilliant care of those children and taking emotional care of myself and putting no demands on him. I can also be on his side (and this is harder) by refusing to tolerate his shoddy behaviour and distancing myself from it. I see a man who is confused and struggling and depressed and deeply frightened and who finds vulnerability and humility too frightening to countenance. I feel a lot of compassion for him. Whether he is able to dig deep and find it in himself to examine his own behaviour is up to him. Even if he goes on that journey, he might end up a better man and one I am no longer suited to. I know that. I'm very sad about it. But I don't want to cling onto him anymore.
The question of abuse is a very complex one, my husband has also behaved in some abusive ways too, but sometimes it's not abuse but a complicated dynamic between two people where one person behaves badly and the other person accepts it (that's not victim blaming, it's acknowledging a system with two people which can spiral into negativity). I do agree that you can be on his side by not tolerating poor or disrespectful behaviour, but you're also on your own side there too. I have similar feelings about wanting to both help my husband be a better man as he professes to want to be (if he's capable of change) as well as putting a stop to poor treatment. Understanding where that poor behaviour comes from doesn't excuse it, some behaviour is never acceptable and it seems like we are both learning how to refuse to be victims here.
And yes you are strong, those mixed feelings are challenging to sit with but they are also normal. I think it takes more strength to go through those feelings than it does to take action to end a marriage. Leaving the door open is harder than slamming it shut, because it leaves you vulnerable.
I think it is complex too. I don't think turning him into a two dimensional monster is any more accurate than turning me into a two dimensional victim - though that was a strongly entrenched part of our dynamic and I am changing that. He was not always the way he is now. Neither was I. Which means change is possible, and I am going to change for the better.
I have some questions about the best thing to do regarding co-parenting. There's a long standing problem with Eldest, who is very challenging at times. Eldest feels that H favours Youngest, who personality wise, is much more compliant and sunny natured and eager to please and much more like H in interests. Eldest tends to be highly strung and anxious, and this manifests in some angry flareups. I've contributed unhelpfully here by letting Eldest get away with a LOT of poor behaviour and disrespect. I don't think I really saw how much of a doormat I was being, nor how my letting him get away with disrespect towards H and how that made H feel impacted on my marriage, so this is also a 180 for me though my focus here is on good co-parenting rather than anything to do with R.
At the moment, Eldest is in counselling and I am also doing some new parenting methods with boundaries and consequences and added responsibilities that I agreed with H at our family therapy session. I am also making sure to spend some positive one on one time with Eldest as often as I can. It is working. Eldest is calmer, talking to me more, and seems less reactive around certain hot-button issues like homework and chores around the house. Or at least, he is with me. He will still over-react and speak really disrespectfully to H now and again - and instead of H dealing with this using the boundaries and methods that we have agreed, he will often use pretty sarcastic and nasty language. I don't like this, but I can see he's feeling provoked. Which is no excuse.
I am not sure what to do in situations like this. I don't want to engage H in any discussions about his parenting or his relationship with Eldest. It is fruitless. He is very sensitive to perceived criticism and is more interested in rehashing the fact he believes it is all my fault rather than participating in positive solutions for going forward. I'm not having conversations like that with him any more. I can empathise a lot with Eldest's feelings here: H is pretty unpleasant sometimes, and he doesn't show Eldest the care and attention and affection he shows to Youngest, but he isn't abusive toward him. At times Eldest has made gestures that have been clearly to do with seeking attention and love and approval from H, and he's neither not noticed them, or been unwilling or unable to respond with warmth. From the outside, I think if he could apologise for lapses in his temper and stick to the boundaries we've agreed most of the time, while also giving Eldest some love and attention, things would improve immeasurably. But he's not there, and my nagging at him isn't going to get him there. So I need some actions to take to co-parent well - rather than conversations to have with H, as that doesn't work.
What I've done so far:
given Eldest consequences if I hear him speak to H disrespectfully and it doesn't look like H is going to give the consequences himself
emphasised to Eldest that while I understand how he feels, and that he is entitled to his feelings and opinions, and that I will always listen (and I will) we all need to be responsible for our own behaviour and he needs to focus on his own
when Eldest complains to me about the way H speaks to him, I say a) H doesn't have to be a perfect parent to deserve respect b) he needs to speak to H directly if he is upset by something he has done and c) he needs to look at his own part in the dynamic - H is withdrawn from Eldest but is generally only reactive as a response to disrespect from Eldest
when Eldest lies or exaggerates something that H has done or said I challenge him on it. When Eldest responds badly to a request from H when I know he'd respond peacefully to the same request from me, I pull him up on it.
I don't want to triangulate between them. I don't want to manipulate. I don't want to be co-dependent or enabling. I am not sure what the right thing to do here is. The therapist suggested it was best for Eldest if strong boundaries were put in place and I made sure that Eldest knew it was not okay to disrespect H. She also said H needed to be calm and make sure there was positive contact in their relationship. I can only do my bit.
Does any one have any suggestions for me?
That's very difficult. Are you still going to family therapy? I would think this is best addressed here instead of you having to get involved, you've done your part. It's not your role to be judge or even umpire though, it really seems like it needs to come from them. Can you leave the room if it starts happening?
It's really really difficult. They both put me in the middle fairly often - though less often than when we all lived together - and I don't know how to respond. When Eldest made H a cake last week, and H was a bit graceless about it, Eldest was upset in the kitchen and I was saying something along the lines of 'he's just really tired - you've got to bear in mind how hard he's working at the moment' and my inner self was going 'that's rubbish - he could have pasted on a smile and said thank you and looked enthusiastic for two minutes' and H wasn't happy either and told me off for patronising and making excuses for him. I got so anxious in the end I just left the house - which did help me though I am not sure it really helped anyone else. So I can't win. I think being more silent around this sort of dynamic is needed.
We only had that one session of family therapy. H left early when she challenged him on how obstructive he was being. I asked for her suggestions - which I am implementing - and she emailed me afterwards basically saying she thought therapy between H and I would be useful, or between H and Eldest, but not all together as yet.
I don't think anything will change between Eldest and H unless H is ready to show some gentleness and humility. And he's not. So I am trying to work out how to co-parent positively given the situation as it is.
Hmm, could you make a joke of it? Like get an actual judge's wig or an umpire's cap and put them on and then go 'oh, no, that's not my job, you two are supposed to sort this out together!' and then leave the room. Your H sounds like he's being worse behaved than the teenager TBH
I really like that suggestion, Dilly. Not so much for H - his ego is too delicate to use humour with most of the time, especially around this issue. But it could work with Eldest.
I think I also need to STFU more and get a sense of proportion. Eldest is stroppy and obstructive and often whingey and lazy and moany. But he's also doing very well at school, he doesn't take drugs or smoke, there's no risky sexual behaviour (that I know about) and while he has friends and socialises, I always know where he is and when he's due back. He can be extremely disrespectful to both me and H - more so with H - but I have the feeling that it is within the realms of normal and it's my / our reactions to it that need to be finessed. So - his behaviour isn't acceptable but it isn't hugely worrying in the grand scheme of things. And perhaps he's just going to have to learn to deal with the fact that H isn't going to respond with calm and care and understanding - lots of people wouldn't.
I suspect what's behind this problem is the fact that H over-reacts, and I over-react to H over-reacting, and I pre-over-react if they're going to be in the same room together and get uptight, or try to match make or manage or control things. And H pre-over-reacts to my over-reaction - I think he gets tense and worried thinking that I am going to get upset before Eldest has done or said anything. I probably have a greater influence over what happens in my house than I imagine, and the way through it might be humour, calmness and STFU.
I am away next week, leaving them all together and I am very anxious about it. I wanted to sit down with H and talk about parenting and Eldest, but perhaps the better route would be to just leave some food in the freezer and let them fight it out together.
Pre-over-reacting is HILARIOUS! It's very complicated, having a 3 person dance going on isn't it? It's complicated enough having just one other person to dance with! I'm glad you can see your role in this. I reckon leaving food and letting go of the situation when you're away is the perfect thing to do, I bet they both pleasantly surprise you. Having a parenting talk with your H sounds quite controlling and maybe NOT doing it would be a 180?
Yes - I think winding my neck in and seeing what happens might be the better thing to do here. H can be pretty mean and sarcastic and belittling - and I don't like it - but Eldest gives as good as he gets and is pretty awful himself sometimes. H knows precisely what I don't like about his behaviour and want to change, and he knows that as I consider him the adult, I also think it's his duty to go first and improve his side of things without waiting for a change or contrition from Eldest. I try to have some compassion - he's obviously afraid - but I think it's pathetic and he can probably tell that I think it's pathetic even when I keep my mouth shut. But H will keep everyone fed and he will make sure the laundry is done and he has never, ever raised a hand to either of them. So it might be an unpleasant week for Eldest, but then again, he has a part to play in how poor that relationship is too, and he isn't a young child - he's old enough to learn to have some control over himself.
Trust in them both to do the right thing, I'm sure there might be the odd moment but without you there the dynamics will be different. Is this trip away your walking holiday? That sounds wonderful
Yes, off on a walking holiday. The plan is to spend a lot of time alone and outside, and in poor weather and at night, spend a lot of time reading and eating nice things. I want to look inside and see what I want, process some more of this sadness, and also take a proper break from everything. I am tired and I need it. I hope that with me being out of the way there's a change in how things are between the kids and H, but that's not in my control so I will just see what happens there.
Journalling: I am feeling very peaceful today. Sad in some ways, as the more I think of myself, the more I think that what H is offering isn't enough and I need to listen to myself, instead of accepting it then punishing him for it not being enough. I don't want to be looked after, but I do want to be honestly known and to honestly know someone else, and H has no real curiosity about me, or interest in disclosing about himself (the blame and the deflection do a brilliant job of keeping who he really is secret from me). He's free to do that, of course, but I am not sure I want to be in a relationship like that. Perhaps things will change. Perhaps the MC will be a way of us getting to know each other again, if I decide to go. I really want to ask him what is different for him this time, and use his answer to make my decision, but I am not sure that right now is the exact best time to ask. He's ill again, and in the last couple of weeks of this project he just can't have time off. I think I will see him tonight but I plan to just DB and be kind without getting too close. I am starting to wonder if ending the marriage with H for me is not a one time decision I will make after a period of deliberation, but something that happens very slowly as the end result of lots of little decisions concerned with setting healthy boundaries and putting my own and the kids' best interests before his. It's a shame if that is the path I am on, but I am not turning back now.
More journalling. I feel very strange.
I did see H tonight. He is sick again, and I tried to make some polite chit-chat and get out some pain killers and stuff for him on the principle that that's what I'd do if a neighbour turned up under the weather. He was very remote - he almost always is - but it just struck me as different this time. Not that he was being different, but that I felt differently about it.
I was chatting to him about a book I'd read and he was grunting and yes, he's tired and ill and ambivalent about lots of things, and stressed, and blah blah blah - but you'd make more effort in polite conversation with a stranger on the bus. And he has been like that for a long time. It's driven me crazy. He has felt for a long time like a locked cupboard I have been banging on the door of. And now I don't feel like banging on the door, I was just trying to be kind and polite and keep things cordial. And I had the weirdest sense that perhaps it isn't that he is with-holding himself from me, and has been all these years, but it's just that there's nothing much there.
He doesn't really have friends or hobbies or interests. We can talk about the kids. He will listen to me chatter on if he is in a good mood, and will roll his eyes and otherwise humiliate me into shutting up if he's not in a good mood. But he doesn't really offer much of himself - I only know his opinions about things when he offers criticism or a complaint about something. He's always been pretty much impossible to buy presents for because I don't really know about anything that gives him pleasure. That could be my short coming as a wife - that will be part of it - but even when I sit and think hard about what it is the man actually likes or enjoys, I couldn't come up with anything. It felt like a bit of an epiphany to me. It is very very hard to be married to a man when there isn't actually much of a man there to be married to.
Things have been peaceful between us these past couple of weeks because I've been much less interested in getting behind that cupboard door. He sends a faintly affectionate text message most nights before he goes to sleep, and he seems to like me listen to him complain about his work and his health and how hard things are for him at the moment when he comes to see the kids. He is making a bit more effort with the kids and I do appreciate that for their sake. He will ask my how my day went or what I've been up to, but it's like the lights are on but nobody is actually home. It's a bit perfunctory on both our parts. I validate or stay silent, depending on my emotional resources.
This is strange and sad in lots of ways. I don't feel angry but I do feel tired. I have been ambivalent about my marriage and my feelings towards this man for such a long time. I am ready to move into something else now - a commitment to repairing or ending the relationship. I want to be on some solid ground and I don't think hanging on and hoping he turns into someone I can have a happy marriage with is what I want to do. I think I am on the brink of letting him go entirely. If he wants to keep me, he is going to have to step up and do something and do it fast and I am pretty sure that isn't going to happen - he isn't capable of it. There's nothing at all I am able or willing to do that would make him capable of it. The last time we spoke about divorce was back in February. He said he didn't have time to deal with it. He doesn't really seem to have the energy or interest or desire to deal with anything at all in his life, and work is a nice place for him to hide. But I'm more than capable of taking things forward in that way myself, if I want to.
Patience Alison, patience. It's great that you're detaching, really great. But just for goodness sakes let the man finish this work thing of his and recover from it before you go Ding him, ok? You have promised him and yourself that much. Just let the limbo lie a little longer. Don't react from emotion, even if it's a lack of emotion.
Yes, I'm not in a mad rush. I'm just thinking that there's more to this than meets the eye. He is sick and exhausted and I feel sorry for him - I really do. But even if he returns to the way he was functioning prior to this project, I still don't want it. And if the change I need to be happy in the relationship is so radical as to alter his character, then perhaps that's a kind of emotional violence. I can accept him for who is his, detach and let go of my wish for him to be different. I can accept that in a few months once he's recovered he might well participate in life again - maybe - but I am not sure we're suited to each other any more.
I will be patient and where I can be kind, I will, and where I can't, I will just be kind to myself. I am spending today cooking seven evening meals for the freezer so he doesn't have to think about that while I am away. He is more than capable of cooking, but he's also exhausted and I like cooking and have a quiet day today so it's no skin off my nose.
Hi Alison
I read your posts with interest because I can see my own thoughts a few months ago echoed eloquently within them.
You, like I, have peeled back the layers of our M to find it's a bit rotten / lacking underneath. This is why the vets tell us to give it time. To see the truth and assess the reality once the drama ha died down and the adrenalin isn't fuelling our thoughts and actions.
It was relatively easy for me because once I told him I wasn't taking part in his 3 way drama any longer, he ran for the hills. Absence helped with the clarity.
I agree with Dilly - don't rush into anything, don't force it.
I wouldn't have petitioned for D if I didn't have to protect myself from some very reckless financial shenanigans. I would have just continued to crack on with my life, married or not.
Just keep processing your thoughts and wishes and continue to separate those from his actions.
You're doing good!!
One of my kids said that he found it really hard when he met up with his Dad for a quick drink as Dad didn't have anything interesting to say and then reflected that the usual family dynamic had been me interacting with the boys and Dad sitting on the periphery ie 'one dimensional' Of course Hs version is that I was too dominant and he went along with whatever I decided. One man's submission is another man's boring!!
You guys talk about things not being two dimensional and I would agree. Each one of our situations are complex and have many dimensions. In fact, if you read other threads here most of them include multiple hardships before and after BD, including infidelity, lies, difficulty with children, financial strain, addiction, etc, etc ... So please do not confuse my word choices of "abuser" and "victim" to mean that your situation is somehow two dimensional or simple. Quite the contrary. I still reserve my position that your H's behavior is abuse and should never be excused, even if you believe you have provoked it. Abuse is never okay and the victim of the abuse is never to blame. Sure, we teach others how to treat us and that we will allow it, but that does not excuse it either. And, some people really will not mistreat others in this way, even when life gets rough or it is provoked.
I have read 100s of posters here and i have read yours. We often look for similarities between our sitches because it makes us more comfortable and we feel we can relate to one another. There are however as many differences as there are similarities, some obvious some not. I mean, it's not as if we ever see the entire story 100%. If any of our spouses posted, they would tell a different side. All I have to go by is what I read here. Your words describing your H trouble me and I worry for you.
And I do think that some behaviors are worse than others. The behaviors that you describe -- name calling, sarcasm, the way he speaks to your son, belittling, withholding affection as a form of punishment, an incident of physical violence -- are all abuse. I am using the word abuse because I find it extreme and something that by simply using "techniques" highlighted here, will not fix it. Abusive people must do a lot of very hard work on their own to overcome this, and their first step is understanding that they have a problem.
My H was a real jerk. He had an A with my friend and left our home for awhile. It was absolutely a horrific time. But he was not abusive. Even with the constant turmoil, conflict and stress, he never did or said things that were cruel or abusive. He did not do or say any of the behaviors that you have been describing your H does. So I do think it's important to understand that even if we are all going through the same struggles, there are also differences. We owe it to each other to be honest here and not just be friendly and validate. That doesn't help us make good decisions.
It is up to you if you take your H back or not. Everyone here will support you and is pro-M. I just think at the very least you should give it several years and require that he really work on himself and make some serious changes. He should not be able to go on acting this way and harming others. If he will not change for himself or his M, he at least should for your kids' sake.
Sorry to be blunt. I left my abuser in my 20s. He went on and had the exact same drama with the next woman. I did not. You do not have to put up with this cr-p anymore.
Blu
Blu - thank you for that.
(and everyone else who has posted).
I do think you're right - his behaviour was abusive and at times continues to be so. But we have been together 14 years and the behaviour I'm describing really only happened in the last couple of years. I've thought about it a lot and I am sure of that. I think it is related to his increased work stress and the way I react needily when he withdraws from me because of his stress. None of which excuses things - not at all - but it does mean I have some faith in his capacity to change these behaviours. I want to see him acknowledge they were wrong and work to change them rather than blame them on me or his working circumstances, and as that hasn't happened, there's no chance I would live with him again. Even very early on in our separation I noticed how much I enjoyed the break from the relentless negativity and moaning and criticism and nitpicking and how much the kids and I have flourished in the absence of that. I am not putting myself and them back into that environment for anything.
What perhaps goes back much further than the last couple of years is his underlying negativity and lack of interest in the world. I don't know if that's depression, or selfishness, or just the way he is. I think I was like that too - very negative and closed off. This separation and my therapy (and I don't think it is any co-incidence I got into that about 2 years ago too) has helped me to release a lot of baggage and start to enjoy the world and my life again. To really take care of myself and to feel gratitude for my life. To enjoy my friends and start to be a supportive person to my friends rather than just the moaning person with emotional problems. I've changed, and I am trying to encourage that perspective in the kids, so when he turns up and sits at the table whining and moaning and glowering and criticising, I think we all breathe a bit of a sigh of relief when he leaves. I do feel pity for him at the moment. And that's hardly a basis for a relationship either.
I don't need a D in that he's not financially irresponsible and I could take on all bills and support the kids totally fine on my single wage from tomorrow, if needed. The mortgage is coming up for renewal in a couple of months and I think we will need to have a discussion then about what to do with the house. If we're not going to start MC with the view to exploring an R then I want a more regular arrangement with contact with the kids, him seeing them in his own place, and not treating my home like his home when he is here. That might involve a change to our financial arrangements. I can wait until he's done this project and recovered before initiating a conversation on that, and I will decide whether or not I want to go to MC in the next couple of weeks too.
I need to think about myself first. The fact is, I have no idea what reflection or work he's done, or what he currently believes about our R and his own behaviour and my behaviour. I know he wants to repair our relationship, and I can't believe he wants things to just go back to the way they were - he must have been unhappy too - but I don't know what changes he wants to see and what he envisages a future looking like. I'd like to know those things and perhaps MC is the place to find them out. I also want to be able to tell him some things that fear of his reaction has prevented me from saying. I need him to really acknowledge and understand the effect his behaviour has had on me and the children - to really get it - and I don't know if I need to wait for that to sink in before we go to MC or if MC is the place where I will tell him that and the therapist will help him to hear it.
I have a busy weekend planned with loads of GAL with the kids - I am looking forward to it. Then leaving for my week away on Monday. I am not sure I will be able to update next week, though I am sure I will be doing lots of thinking and reflecting in my journal and it will do me good. I can't wait!
You really have been great at GAL Alison, I admire that! I also think that seeing how much better your life has become from this separation is interesting.
There is a lot I miss. Though for the past two years of our marriage, the bad stuff has outweighed the good and I let my focus on that bad stuff and trying to fix it in ineffective ways to overshadow everything that was good and enjoyable about my own life. I think the kids and me are really flourishing. There's so much to enjoy now I have freed myself from having to prop up a depressed husband or try to control or repair a failing marriage. I still hope for a repair but I'm not actively working on it - I am working on myself instead and that's so freeing.
Talked to H briefly this morning about the coming week. Youngest has inset days on the Thursday and Friday. This has been on our shared calendar for about four months and I also mentioned it to him in Feb when I first asked for the time away, and again in April when we finally agreed I could do this. The options were for Youngest to go to H's mother or to get booked into the holiday club. H said he'd take care of it and he hasn't. It might be too late for either now. I know he's stressed and it's just slipped his mind, but he was pretty shirty about his mistake - really searching for a way to blame it on me. I texted him and said, 'Is there anything I can do to help here? I know you're stressed and it's just slipped your mind,' and he hasn't replied. He is always going on about me taking away his authority in the house as a parent, but he doesn't see how he makes it so difficult for me to leave him in charge and trust his judgement. I am practicing the fine art of STFU today. I've offered to help, and that will have to be enough.
Just journalling.
Saw H last night. He was an a foul mood and I felt anxious. He sorted out the childcare situation - he had asked his mother, apparently, and forgot about it - which isn't surprising given how depleted he is. I'm glad I didn't say anything but I notice how eager he was to find a way for it to be my fault. I didn't engage with him on it, and in the great scheme of things it is relatively minor but it is information about where his head is at that I am not going to ignore.
He hung around for a bit, and went into the back garden and was sending texts on his phone. I went out and asked him who he was texting - which was a mistake and I regret it. He was immediately defensive. 'I sent a few silly texts a year ago,' he said (in reference to his EA). I said, 'I'm sorry I asked you that. We both know your relationship with [EA woman] was more than that, but I shouldn't be quizzing you about your phone and I'm sorry that I did,' and I left him where he was and went upstairs to pack for my holiday. He came up about half an hour later and started ranting - not shouting exactly, but he was upset and emotional - about how he never had any space in the relationship, about how the children had their own rooms but he didn't, that he didn't have any room for his things in the house (he's moved out and he lives somewhere else, and the things that he hasn't taken with him are exactly where he left them - I haven't removed or disturbed his stuff at all). I listened then I said, 'I know we've both been very unhappy living together. We don't live together any more so I don't know why you want me to listen to you carry on being angry about stuff to do with a living situation that is in the past,' - one of the things he was annoyed about was that I bought a new armchair for my bedroom and it was in a space that he liked to have clear. It seems insane to me - he doesn't live here, it's my room, I will have a chair there if I want to. I didn't say anything until it all died down then I said 'I am tired of this. I know you weren't happy in our marriage. I wasn't either. That's why we made the change of not living together any more. That's made me happier, for sure. We can either talk positively about changes to make to our relationship in the future, or we can talk about divorce and finances, but I am not going to listen to you complain about a situation that is six months in the past now.'
He didn't like that and he left. I was very shaky and upset afterwards. Upset, I think, because I had hoped that he wanted to go to MC to talk about something other than how much he hated living with me and how it was all my fault. I'd hoped he'd be able to communicate what he wanted to change - even if it was to talk about how to divorce kindly and amicably. I can see how I angered and triggered him by asking him about his mobile phone, and I wish I hadn't. So perhaps I haven't changed as much as I'd need to and as he wants to see either.
I saw him briefly this morning and he was very defensive - and i just said there was no point talking about it unless it was to make a change or to move things forward in some way - and he said that he needed some space in the relationship for his opinions and emotions and he thought the best way forward was to move house and get somewhere bigger where we could all have our own space. My jaw dropped at that. There's not a chance in the hot place that I'd financially commit to a bigger mortgage with him right now, and if he thinks that's the solution to our problems we are much much further away from resolving anything than I'd imagined. Still no signs at all of him looking at his own part in things, taking responsibility, etc. He has a tendency (and our family therapist picked up on this and called him out on it - which is why he left the session early and in a bad temper) to criticise and moan and complain but not to make suggestions, collaborate or ask for what he wants. It means in our marriage I've either ignored or avoided him and just got on with what I wanted to do because to ask him for input just opens up the way for a hailstorm of moaning and obstruction. I can see why he'd feel ignored and overlooked. He can't see how that's a situation he's helped to create and still isn't willing to see it.
I am glad I'm going away tomorrow. I am really really tired of the way I allow him to treat me. I think I did better this time, but I want to use some of the time away to think about firmer boundaries and consequences. I don't want to listen to his whinging and criticism ever again and if he's not able or willing to look forward constructively, then I will move on without him. It's probably time for him to start enjoying his own space and privacy more completely, and seeing his children there, on a more equitable childcare arrangement.
Wow, that sounds pretty hard. You dealt with it assertively and kindly I think. And buying a bigger house so he can have space? Ummmm, lol.
Do you think there might have been something he was actually guilty about with the phone for him to react like that? I don't think it's an unreasonable question actually, particularly in light of his EA.
Well done, you handled it well. I hope he feels your absence. And I hope you have a lovely time!
I don't know - he said in the end he was texting a friend about a cycling commitment. As far as I know he hasn't had any contact with the woman since I found out about it last year. It was her choice to end things, not his - and I did have to watch him be upset about that for a few months over the summer, which was horrible. During those months I was obsessive about watching his every move, and he hated it, and I threatened to kick him out unless he let me do it - it was a crazy time and I made lots of mistakes. Our MC we saw last year said that I was going to have to find it in myself to trust him and he was going to have to be understanding of the fact that it was difficult for me as a result of his actions - and I do agree with that. I don't think he's up to anything now. He's changed his job - and I believe that and have evidence of it - to reassure me that he isn't bumping into her at work any more. I think I just let my insecurity get the better of me and instead of looking inwards for comfort and steadiness, I went back to old habits of expecting him to provide it by offering reassurance. It triggered bad memories in him, clearly.
H was round last night. He ended up staying over. Eldest was pretty challenging - deliberately so - and I think that came from anxiety about me going away. I think I found the right balance - just about - between backing up H but also giving him space to parent in his own way. He was steady and calm and not sarcastic or mean and he told me when he needed a few minutes on his own to calm down, which I appreciated. Eldest seemed to respond very well to that united front, and all was well this morning. It made me feel a bit better about leaving today for the week - which I will be doing in a couple of hours.
I've been mulling over the comment about wanting a bigger house. It's so strange. H chose the house we're living in now. I wasn't convinced but have grown to really love it. He wanted to live in this particular expensive area, whereas I wanted to live in a less fancy area, so we could afford something bigger. We're by no means cramped, but as the kids have grown there is more pressure on communal space, I work at home a lot, and I think an extra bedroom and reception room is necessary if we are all going to live together again. But as it stands, I can afford the mortgage on my own and buy him out easily. That puts me in a strong position and he knows that. I don't want to trade in that security for a bigger house until we're much much more solid with each other, and that could take years - if it ever happens at all. At the moment, he's renting a room in someone else's house. If he wanted to get a proper place of his own where the kids could visit him properly then we'd need to rejig finances and that would be difficult though not impossible. I have savings he has no access to and vice versa.
It's nice that he is looking forwards and imagining me in his future, but it makes very little sense to me. I've almost decided that I will go to the MC with him - just so I can have clarity and a better understanding of what he sees our problems are and what the solutions or ways forward might be. It doesn't commit me to anything, and I can walk out and end the process if he just wants to use it to whine and complain about the past. But I am going to mull it over more when I am away. I suspect his week doing all the wife-work might be a bit of watershed moment for both of us.
It sounds like going to MC would be useful for you, especially if you have a decent MC. I envy you a husband even willing to go to MC, mine has always refused (I've been asking for probably over 15 years on and off...)
Maybe the house thing is him saying he wants a fresh start?
Yes, I think he does want to move on from the past - he just doesn't seem to know how. I also know he feels really paranoid that the neighbours are talking about our situation. They're not - the people next door had no idea until he mentioned that he'd moved out himself - but how he appears to others is very important to him. I think my main fear about MC is that it would just be the very end of the line - I'd sit there and be confronted with the fact it was over, rather than be able to kid myself into thinking we have some hope, as I am doing now. But that's immature. And if he is willing, I may as well go and find out what he wants to say. I will think on it some more but I am feeling more positive about it, especially since he's been initiating a lot more contact with me over the past couple of weeks, and I've seen him trying to make changes in his parenting too.
Worst case scenario: MC makes you realise your marriage is over
Best case scenario: MC helps you both move forward
Intermediate (probably more likely) scenario: somewhere in between, which is where you currently are?
You're right, Dilly. I think what is holding me back is not H or his actions, but my fear. Where I am at the moment is okay. I am happy. I am financially secure. I see H often and while it isn't always easy, we're miles and miles away from how it was in Jan / Feb. I don't really cry anymore. I wouldn't trade the life I am living now for anything, and repairing things with him or divorcing him means a change and I am afraid of change.
This is excellent for me to think about while I am away.
Alison, I think you're handling everything exactly how you should. It really sounds like he hasn't changed at all and is now trying to abuse and control you from a distance (that chair thing, wow). As for the house, DON'T DO IT!!!! My brother'x XW convinced him that they needed a bigger house so they could "all have their space". He didn't think they could afford it but eventually he gave in. Then she BD'd him and told him "well I thought a bigger house would fix our marriage but it didn't." I think your H has that same mindset right now- well maybe we just need a bigger house. Talk about grasping! The problem couldn't POSSIBLY be inside himself, right?
I can see how I angered and triggered him by asking him about his mobile phone, and I wish I hadn't. So perhaps I haven't changed as much as I'd need to and as he wants to see either.
No I don't think you did anything wrong at all. Your H is the one who has been saying he wants to try and recon, yet he's going to get that offended just because you asked who he was texting? How are you supposed to rebuild trust with him if that's his attitude?
I am back from my week away. It was amazing. I noticed that I felt so comfortable and calm on my own - really content in the silence and my own company. I've always been more of an introvert than an extrovert, but I notice I need to give myself a lot of distractions - internet, audiobooks, work in the house, obsession with my career, etc. Just to sit quietly on my own with nothing to do or be, or walk out in nature with no particular achievement or destination in mind was a massive 180 and I felt all the better for it and really want to build more of that into my life.
Another positive - it seemed that Eldest and H got on fine when I was away. It looks like standards in the house were pretty low (ironic really, given that it was him who wanted the kids on a schedule of chores and wanted me to do more housework...) but I suspect he was exhausted and basically doing the bare minimum to keep things ticking over. Which is fine - I have my own routines and there's no need for us to parent exactly the same way. Eldest didn't bring down any of his laundry to be done all week, so H said that Eldest had to do it himself this weekend (which is fair and I totally agree with that) and Eldest seems to have done that without complaint.
H texted me affectionately goodnight every night when I was away. It was nice. I had some bad news on the last day - a friend of mine (not close, but more than an acquaintance) died by suicide. It was totally unexpected. I ended up calling H in the middle of the night (he absolutely hates being woken up) and we spoke for about 15 minutes. He was actually very kind. He said something like, 'I'm worried I am not saying the right thing but I'm sorry you're so upset' and it made me realise how totally inadequate he feels when I express strong emotions. I texted him the next morning to tell him I was going to come home a few hours earlier than planned (I was sad and really wanted to see my kids) and that I was grateful to him for being there, even though it was the middle of the night, and what he said was just fine and enough.
Me getting home was another matter. I was tearful and needy - the news about my friend had really sunk in on the drive home. And he was tired and sick (again - I wish he'd go to the doctor, but he won't. He is very run down and has had some kind of feverish cold / throat / ear type pain for over six weeks...) and the kids had worn him out and I think was obviously worried about what state I'd be in and what I would want from him. And I was upset and wanting - just once - to come home and have someone be pleased to see me and wanted to know if I was okay, rather than be irritated or guarded or disappointed or just not interested. It was tricky. I think we made it though okay in the end.
Some interesting things: he is putting A LOT of effort into rearranging new working hours for easier family life, less shift work and to make room for us to have a regular MC appointment, though he says he isn't ready to start yet and won't be - in practical terms - for another couple of weeks. When I was upset when I got home he started talking - again - about our past and the times I had not been there for him. I just could not have any more of it. I said 'I am never listening to you battering me with the past ever again,' and I left the room. Then he wanted to talk to me about how I was dismissing his feelings. I held tight to my boundary and said 'you can talk to me about your feelings. You can tell me what you want and need. You can tell me what is on your mind. But it is your responsibility to find a way to communicate that to me without couching it in blame and criticism, because I have flourished after escaping from that, and I'll never put myself through it again.' He was pretty shocked at that. But I think the message did go in because he stopped.
I guess he just has nothing much to offer at the moment in the way of repair, or comfort. There are really good reasons why he's in that state and I don't blame him for them. I can see that he wanted to, I can see that he tried. And I can also see that - I think - be brings up the past in order to illustrate the times when I have fallen short, as he is falling short now, as a way of getting me to understand or show some patience. But I'm not listening to that any more. If he wants to sit in blame and resentment, he can do it alone. I think we could have a really good future together - something new, not a repair of the old - but I am not sure I am ready and I don't think he is either.
I am sad today about my friend. I have spent so long surviving, and living a joyless existence entirely focussed on my work and the problems in my marriage. I plan to live with as much happiness as I can and get all the enjoyment out of each day as I can, and I'd love to be able to share that with H but if he doesn't want to take that journey with me I will go ahead and take it on my own.
Please start a new thread and link both threads together.