Slowly piecing, D busted (pt 14)

Divorcebusting.com

previous threads

Hello friends! So my life is going very well. WH and I continue to piece, most days are good but we still have normal rough spots where we disagree. This is a tough time of year as this was when WH had reignited his affair in 2016. (around my birthday and our anniversary) Sometimes I have nightmares and my heart has permanent damage (from the stress) which needs another procedure soon.

There were oftentimes when I felt hopeless and utterly helpless to turn around our marriage. But the process of DBing really works. It takes a lot of patience as well as a willing spirit to do what works, no matter how counter intuitive it feels. Sometimes I wish I could turn back the clock and advise myself. It took me a LONG time to learn to lovingly detach. My poor DBing coach, Chuck, was tireless in his firm but compassionate counsel. If I could turn back time this would be my advice to myself:

1. Let.Him.Go. Seriously, don't hang onto a person who feels like they're drowning. This makes them more desperate to escape your desperate presence. Don't try to "convince" or "educate" or "help them understand." This is nothing more than your desperation to CONTROL their behavior.

2. Whatever it takes, go be with friends who will support but also help fill your empty time with fun activities. I failed horribly at this because I had such small children. I should've left the kids with WH one night a week and gone bowling, dancing, the mosque, ANYTHING to stop my mental tires from spinning.

3. If IC isn't working, either find a new counselor or find another way to process your journey. I found IC fairly useful in the beginning when I needed a neutral party to vent to but it quickly became so much navel gazing. DON'T do MCing unless your WAS/WS is willing to do the necessary work to reconcile, this is usually in the piecing phase. We went to 2 MC and even tried Retrouville and it ended in flames.

4. Remember that it is possible to survive a divorce and thrive eventually. I fought the idea of a divorce so hard because I felt I was going to be a failure. It was only when I let go of the rope, filed for divorce and started truly moving forward was I able to actually save my marriage.

My marriage still has a LOT of work to do. It's so easy to return to old patterns, to take the peace for granted. I make myself do uncomfortable things to surprise myself as well as my husband. I dress nice all the time now, take myself to the hair salon every two weeks, and surprise my WH with sexy stuff. I remind myself to treat him with the constant curtesy and kindness I treat my co-workers with. No more sarcasm, hidden contracts or unspoken expectations. He in turn, tries to be proactive and ask me if he can do anything to help me when I am stressed, tired or overwhelmed. We ar growing.

PsySara, thank you for stopping in and reflecting. I remember reading a lot of (if not all of) your sitch when I came to the board last fall. You've been through SO much. You really must feel like a completely different person now.

Your step #1 is perfectly worded, and in my mind the most important of the 4. Thank you for framing it so beautifully. I must constantly remind myself that I do not want to be with someone who needs to be convinced of my value as a partner.

Thank you again for your words of wisdom.

A little bit of update. I think I reaching that plain of lethal flatness and I am trying to find out how to turn it around. I feel there is a lack of reciprocity in my marriage. I have effectively GAL, I feel a I am a more attentive mother and wife but WH still seems to lack the ability to reciprocate affection in my LL. I am a QT girl as well as Acts of Service. He continually promises to help me out with household responsibilities (as well as financial) and then just...forgets. He doesn't really give me QT unless I schedule everything and then arrange the logistics. Then he sort of checks out and we don't (or I don't) feel any connection to him.

I am happy with myself, with my relationship with my children but I am finding my marriage very wanting. I am starting to understand how a WAW can happen. However I have made my relationship needs known multiple times and he makes promises and then just doesn't keep them. I find my relationships at work more fulfilling to my emotional needs but despite multiple tools deployed for my M, no real response from WH. Sometimes I fantasize about D'ing so I can date and feel appealing to someone in a sexual and intellectual way. WH and I don't really have convos past daily logistics.

I've been reading a lot of Gottman recently and really want a deep, fulfilling connection with my husband. I have addressed this issue multiple times during our piecing process but am met with confusion at best or indifference at worst. I don't want to D because raising my children in a two parent home is really important. However living in this sort of lonely, one sided relationship for the next dozen years is also very daunting. WH sometimes tells me he hates talking and he hates listening. How does one grow with a partner with that kind of mentality? While he's not cheating or flirting there still a deep selfish streak with WH. For instance, we are hosting some of his friends from out of town and they are a couple with children close in age to ours. We decided to go the beach on Friday. My WH and the other H decided they would simply fish all day while me and the other wife had to chase after 5 kids. When we got home WH simply lazed about while I sorted our three kids all on my own. This is very standard behavior and I feel constant resentment at the expectation that I will always be the one adult-ing. I have tried addressing this in constructive manners but WH get defensive and then shuts down. I eventually approach him apologetically and then we make up. But then the cycle repeats.

I really thought things would be different than this after we decided to reconcile. I sometimes wish I just completed the divorce and made WH show me some real work before giving him a second chance.

I haven�t read your sitch, I will start off with that.

What is his LL?

Regarding the situation at the beach. It sounds like you expected him to �just know� that he was expected to watch the kids. Instead he went off and did �guy time� with the other H. I will say that I would do the same thing. Not because I�m insensitive or being a jerk, there just weren�t clearly laid out expectations. Anytime my W put out the expectations I was good with it. It was her asking for what she wanted. Almost every time she did I was able to meet her needs. However she struggles to ask; it�s a weakness to ask for help in her mind, instead making covert contracts, moping until I ask what is wrong, then crying for 3 hours while being upset that I never listen to her. It was quite frustrating. We would make up, I�d take the blame, apologize, and then feel resentment because I didn�t do anything wrong in my mind. There was never the �expectation� that she watches the kids, but that is how she felt. I can see that and if given the opportunity to get back with her this would be an easy 180 for me to execute. I would simply ask her what her expectations are for the scenario instead of assuming or waiting for her to tell me.

I wish I could sit her down and make her read �No More Mr. Nice Guy� because she totally does a lot of those nice guy things too. That won�t do any good at this time because she is totally disinterested in anything I have to say. It�s not just a book for guys in my opinion. Women could learn a lot from it too.

Stop apologizing when you set an expectation and he shuts down. It�s still what you want; don�t apologize for asking for what you want. If you were in the wrong then apologize. It asking him to do things you need doesn�t require an apology.

Your frustration comes right through the screen. I can feel it. I can still see the unwritten contracts and expectations in what you describe to me. Do things for him in his LL. You are an Acts or Service woman so as long as it�s coming from a place I love and not an expectation of payback place it will be fine. For things you want help with, ask and set the expectation. For your QT schedule it. Get your needs met. That�s a lot of work, any M worth saving is a lot of work. It�s easy to stay on the plateau. There is more mountain climbing yet to do. Go up and see the spectacular view or go back down and stare up resentfully at those who forged forward. That�s my $0.02. Hope it helps you!

LB55, I completely disagree about the beach scenario.

What if Sara and the other W had behaved in the same way as the men, "Bye! We're heading off down to this other area of the beach"? The kids are just left without any adult supervision? (And Sara's kids are still young.)

One parent shouldn't have to explain to the other parent that they have a responsibility to actually parent.

You can't take kids to the beach and then not supervise them.

This is not a covert contract, it's expecting adults to behave like adults.

Sara, I wish I had something wise to say. It's been a long road for you, and I admire your strength and your commitment to have made it this far.

Originally Posted by LB55

Regarding the situation at the beach. It sounds like you expected him to �just know� that he was expected to watch the kids. Instead he went off and did �guy time� with the other H. I will say that I would do the same thing. Not because I�m insensitive or being a jerk, there just weren�t clearly laid out expectations. Anytime my W put out the expectations I was good with it. It was her asking for what she wanted. Almost every time she did I was able to meet her needs. However she struggles to ask; it�s a weakness to ask for help in her mind, instead making covert contracts, moping until I ask what is wrong, then crying for 3 hours while being upset that I never listen to her. It was quite frustrating. We would make up, I�d take the blame, apologize, and then feel resentment because I didn�t do anything wrong in my mind. There was never the �expectation� that she watches the kids, but that is how she felt. I can see that and if given the opportunity to get back with her this would be an easy 180 for me to execute. I would simply ask her what her expectations are for the scenario instead of assuming or waiting for her to tell me.

Hmmm. Except it isn't PsySara's needs, it's what the kids need. Looking after, keeping out of the sun, feeding, watering, entertaining. These are things kids needs from both of their parents. And there's no reason at all why one parent should have to be asked by the other to join in on meeting the needs of their joint children on a day where they are both present. Having to constantly ask one parent to actually be a parent, and having to think about how you ask them so as to get the best result, and deciding it's easier not to bother asking them but just do all the work yourself - that's exhausting and it kills love and respect. A spouse in this situation is turned into a parent by their lazy partner - the partner who is perfectly willing to do some parenting, but only if they are asked. Surely when you decide to have kids, the expectation that you will join with your spouse in meeting their needs consistently is already set?

I can see some positive and assertive ways of dealing with this situation.

'H, I know you're looking forward to fishing. I'm looking forward to enjoying my book by the beach. How about you take care of the kids for the first two hours, then I switch up with you?' might work with a mature and willing partner.

I get it PsySarah. I have read through some of your previous threads though not all of them, and we don't know each other. I don't know if you're at the WAW stage yet or not, but given the depths to which you've been with your H, and the upheaval your children have gone through already, and the behaviour they've had to tolerate from him - and the behaviour you've had to tolerate from him - in your shoes I would be feeling the same.

LB55,
There was no convert contract, I have addressed this with WH multiple times as this couple have come to visit previously. I have directly told him I need his help with our kids during this visit as he has a tendency to act like a teenager (and I am the nagging mom) when I need help with our kids. To frame the days' events, we were supposed to leave at 10 am to beat the crowds and at 9:45 WH decided that he needed to drive 30 mins away to buy specific sinkers to go fishing. I asked him to put off fishing for another day when we didn't have to entertain guests and manage small children, not to mention it was rude to leave our guests waiting. He said he would be back in 30 minutes. He got back at 12 pm. He then asked me, in front of our guests, was I mad and did we need to talk? I calmly told him this wasn't the time to discuss this and we needed to get everyone to the beach.

Once we got to the beach he and his friend spent the next hour setting up fishing gear and then went two separate ways to fish. The other W was also fuming as her husband chose to fish over spending time with his children while on vacation. When we got home the children were exhausted and hungry. I fed the kids and was about to put them to shower and then to bed. WH chose this time to fill the tub and soak himself for 45 mins while the kids waited to bathe. I was past furious at this point as it was an hour past the kid's bedtime and they were scattered with exhaustion. (WH took the only free bathroom as our guests were using the other one.)

When I apologize I do it because I don't want to come off as nagging or point keeping. (a suggestion by my divorce coach) But I am at the point where I am just done trying to be the only one carrying this relationship. I have spoken in plain terms to WH. I have used clear language in what I need. WH's LL is physical contact and I have gone out of my way to give him affection unconditionally. Lately he responds with apathy and as if he's mildly annoyed. There is no reciprocity.

I also disagree about the beach scenario. Those kids belong to both of them. I certainly expect my partner to not have to be asked to be a parent. He assumed mom will just take care of them and do whatever he wants, he didn�t ask, he didn�t offer a compromise, he just assumed someone is watching his kids. What if the reverse would have happened? Sara knows young kids need to be supervise on a beach. Any parent knows that much. To assume he could do whatever he wants while his wife parents, is really inconsiderate

My boyfriend and I often speak of the mom vs. dad expectations. It makes him nuts when dad�s are portrayed the way Sara�s husband acts. If dad�s want equality, there should be an expectation they are equally involved in their care.

I do think one of the biggest turn off to women with kids is having to tell their spouse to parent.

(((Sara)))

I am glad you updated! I am sorry I missed your last one. I would have replied had I seen it. Your advice to your past self is great. I agree! I hope my LBW friends here will read it over a few times. We are in a similar spot -- had the WH come back and piecing -- and what we coulda/shoulda done back then seems quite obvious now. Hindsight is def 20-20. I have recently been 2*4ing these poor ladies left and right because I can just see how they are selling themselves short. I am sure my impatience comes from a trigger of my past self failing at the same things.

I am sorry to hear that you are still dealing with what I assume is AFib. I hope you can get an ablation and don't need a MAZE procedure. Open heart surgery is not an easy recovery, especially when you are young and have young pain receptors. In this case, I would say, perhaps not the best time to leave your H, as you will need the extra hands. I am sure you know that tho.

We started a piecing thread several months back. I would love it if you would take a look at it and add your thoughts. I think my list and Sandi's list are repetitive in ways, but whatever you can think to add would be great.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2832573

So you are finding yourself having doubts? So very few people like us come back and post over the years, but what I understand is that is also in part due to the LBS eventually becoming the WAS. I have certainly felt that way over the last 4+ years. I will say, it has lessened over time, and especially in the last 6 months. Another poster wrote that his friend didn't fully "reconcile" his M until 5 years. It sounds like such a long time, but considering how long we have been at this and how much we have been through, it is really not that long. Perhaps your H fully committing to the M is still newish. Has it been 1-2 years?

I completely understand your frustrations with your H. While they are not major assaults (like an A or abuse), after all the work you have put into this M with him, that type of inconsideration adds up. Personally, I would not want to spend my life with a partner that made empty promises and didn't pull his weight in the relationship. On the flip side, in any long term R, we have to compromise. Only you can decide what you are willing to compromise on. What can you accept for the benefit of having this M and family with him, and what can you absolutely not accept? Because when we hold onto something or someone that we cannot accept, the resentment builds inside. ... Also, it is better to come up with those "conditions" without emotions and in a practical way, void of triggers.

Another thing to think about is, do you feel "owed" in this M because he initially messed it up? I have to admit, I have dealt with feelings of being entitled in my M since my H came back. It has been hard to break out of the roles of the "betrayer" and the "victim." When those roles remain, the victim can hold an entitlement of being owed more in the M. There is this unspoken sentiment that they, the betrayer, have to work harder to prove their love/worthiness and that they are committed/trustworthy. And of course this cannot sustain itself over time, so as it wears off, there can be a void. So perhaps something as simple as him assuming you would watch the kids at the beach that day, might have been tolerated before BD, but now it can feel like one more thing/mistake/inconsideration on his part.

I thought LB had a valid point. Did you clearly communicate your wants/needs that day? If not, it may be unfair to assume that he would know that. So before letting your resentment about the beach, and other similar events, pile up, ask yourself if you can communicate more clearly to him? Even if you think you do, can you try harder? I want you to feel like you have done your very best at communicating if down the road you do D, it will be easier if you know you tried your best.

You mentioned that there have been several empty promises. I have to be honest and say, I don't like that at all. Especially if that is more of the same behaviors. Again, I am wondering, is this something you would have tolerated before BD? If so, is it fair to ask him to change that now? ... I do not suggest it isn't fair. I am just asking. ... I think people in any long term R (M or any R) absolutely have to compromise and change for the R to last. So ultimately, how does that work with both of you? Does he see this about himself and know to work on changing it?

I have some similar concerns and complaints about my own M. There are certain things about him and us that still bother me. I do still wonder if our M will last. I have definitely fantasized about how things would have been if I had not taken him back and moved on with my life. I actually tried about 1.5 years ago but it didn't last long for me. My H really is willing to keep looking at himself and try to adjust and that feels like enough for me right now.

Are these things you don't like about him things you can live with if they don't change? If the answer is no, is it worth it to give this more time to see if he can change? He has already shown he is capable of some change, so he does have that going for him. Or is this more a matter of you needing more time to accept his imperfections that have perhaps been there a very long time.

Blu

I was writing my post at the same time that all the others were being posted. Sara, I can read your frustrations much more in your next post. It does sound like he is being very selfish and inconsiderate. I am going to think further on it! It does seem that you are going to have to confront him on this. This is a bigger issue.

Blu

Thanks for clarifying Sara. It�s a tough situation. Perhaps the time is done for you. Only you can know that.

Differing perspectives are just that; different.

Thank you all for your perspectives on the subject.

I�m headed to the beach with the kids ironically enough. Have a great day all!

Hi PsySara,

It's nice to see you post here! I haven't been able to be active recently but I try to check back here and post whenever possible. It looks like I missed your post in April. I'm sorry I didn't respond to it. I see the one from yesterday. As I recall your husband is Middle Eastern. While it's not good to stereotype anyone, your husband's behavior sounds like that of 95% of other Middle Eastern husbands and dads. There will always be a double standard. That's not to say there aren't many other great things about them. As my psychologist said men like these will take the path of least resistance - unless you threaten to divorce again there's not much incentive to change. If you want a really attentive, helpful, proactive, engaged husband and father you probably won't ever find that in your husband as you probably know. On the other hand, that's the man with whom you fell in love and you two share many other things in common. My best friend from college is half from that culture and she didn't even marry a Middle Eastern man but she's a physician, super independent, and a deep thinker and she does all of the childcare, housework, cooking, etc.. I asked her about it one time and she replied "that's the burden of being a woman." It's almost like the double standard is equally accepted by women as it is with men. I think in your case you need to take a trip the Middle East. Right now you're here in this culture and your expectations are all based on how things work here in our culture. Reminding yourself about your husband's culture won't solve the problem of you getting what you want in your marriage but it might help you to re-frame your thinking. Women from that part of the world get a lot of their emotional needs met by their mothers, sisters, and female friends. Many times they also have hired help for those who are middle class and above. I'm sure you already know all this but I guess my response is that it seems to be a "take it or leave it" scenario. You can either accept things as they are and make the best of them, because this is who your husband is, or you can file for divorce. You can always try new ways of connecting with your husband but you two probably know each other quite well by now so there's only so much left to try. It's hard. Two years after being abandoned by my husband I'd much prefer the situation you're in to the one I'm in. Having two parents together is the best thing for children unless there's abuse or safety issues in my opinion. Still, your feelings matter and you probably can't live this way for another dozen years. It seems you have to find the right way to communicate with your husband - you need to find the right time, atmosphere, tone of voice, etc.. to get his attention. He may not be willing to give up his fishing trips, naps, long baths, etc.. but what does he have to say about the double standard and what were his expectations by marring an American woman? Perhaps the two of you can try to talk about it....if he can acknowledge it and if you ask him what he proposes as a solution maybe you'll make a tiny bit of progress.

Sara, sorry to hear things aren't going better. Reading your posts I think your marital expectations are completely reasonable, and I also feel you have communicated them effectively and your H just chooses not to concern himself with what you want and need. He sounds very selfish. I'm afraid it may just be a matter of time before he engages in another A. The only thing I can think of to tell you is pull back from him and pull back HARD. Give that some time and see if he starts pursuing again. Try to get out and GAL more too. Good luck!