I wanted to do the right thing. I wasn’t really looking for anything. Even though she is putting me through h#ll I still feel bad for her. I k ow I probably shouldn’t, but you can’t just turn off those feelings. She actually stayed home from work today. She is trying to convince herself it wasn’t a panic attack that she has a virus. Evacuee today she is weak and very tired. I’m taking it one day at a time with no expectations and am enjoying my GAL. Making more and more friends now, it’s kinda nice. GAL is also helping me detach and cope. Thanks everyone. Like everyone says I am making myself the kinda of guy only a fool would leave. Hitting the gym 4 days a week. Went back to playing baseball in a men’s league. So whatever happens, happens.
I know a lot of you said I should have never left the home. But she is getting a taste of her new reality. I had to stop by the home for a little to get some tax paperwork signed. W was having a major meltdown. How this is no way to live, that she works so hard and all has no money, that she doesn’t have any help, that she honestly doesn’t remember the last time she was happy. She said it’s been years since the last time she was actually happy. Then of course it got directed at me. How it must be nice for me to come and go as I please, that I don’t have to deal with the kids in the morning. During that I did validate her feelings that I know this is hard, it must be difficult to do all of this. I understand where she is right now mentally is not good. Her “fog” is very thick. We make a good salary, big beautiful home, 2 beautiful healthy kids, 3 real nice cars, multiplayer vacations a year, we are teachers so we have summers off. I know that stuff I just mentioned is material. She has a husband who loves her, even though she believes I took her for granted. Parents who love her, kids who love her. Why is it they get so focused on only the negative? And miss all the positive things in their life? Many of our friends have said they wish they had our lives. I feel like she is starting to go into depression. Next stage of MLC. I think the replay is not working out for her, or at least so far. It’s sad because I miss my old wife, I wish the “alien” that abducted my W would bring her back.
Wolfman I hear you.
Dont have anything specific to add other than I feel for you.
I wanted to write something to the same effect, but with your posts so similar to mine its like they are already addressed.
I am in that same situation where I hurt seeing her pain. But that means we are not detached yet.
I saw a psychologist today who gave me some help. I will write more on that on my thread later.
But the take away item is. We are done in their hearts and to move on. Period.
He told me to start mourning her as if she were dead. I cried in the room and thank God he had kleenex paper on his desk, Very handy for patients I guess.
I am no wimp, I am big and toughened by life, with my scars, broken nose etc. But I cried like a baby.
We need to start mourning the person we knew. That person is gone. At least for now. Who knows about the future.
Gzabetas I understand you sadness. I think I cried for about 7 months. Never in front of W, but it was a lot. It doesn’t matter how big or small you are, when a persons heart gets broken it hurts us all the same. My therapist told me the same thing, we are mourning the death of our relationship. I have no more expectations for the relationship. I will just keep working on me and that is it. My sadness is finally starting to get better. It “only” took 8 months for me to finally stop crying. Be patient with yourself, it takes time.
As your therapist also described it in the same manner seems it must be the truth.
I also have no more expectations. But I am only on month 4 since BD so I probably have alot more crying and falling apart to do. That totally [censored]. And yes I also dont do it in front of her. We may rush to a crying woman but alas we dont get the same favor in return. We are seen as weak.
Glad to hear your sadness is getting better. Thanks for the advice.
My parting words from my therapist is to say "You cant hurt me, only I can hurt me" in my mind when I see her.
It kinda works
Just want to talk. I don’t know why, just having a rough day. Didn’t see my kids a lot this weekend and it really stinks. Some days I am good at detaching other days it is real hard. Had a little talk with W about relationship, I know we are not suppose to. It came up because we talked about what days who has the kids. It just hurts that she has no desire to work on relationship. All she talks about is things that came up years ago and she can’t let them go. Why is it as a LBS we have a hard time detaching when they are treating us so bad. Yet it seems like it was easy for them. At least that’s what they show. Just needed a safe space to talk. I take it this “fog” is never going to lift. She said she has zero feelings for me. I hurts to hear hay when you have 19 years together and 14 years of marriage.
Every relationship is there to help us grow. We grow during the painful times. You realize what is important (and what is not).
Enjoy your kids when you have them. Do what you need to when you don't. Cry, feel the pain. Go do something. Enjoy it. One minute at a time if needed.
Just validate all the past hurts your W tells you about. You might have to say this 100 times "I am sorry I hurt you."
We all have "our stories". It does not mean it is the truth, just what each of us believes is the truth. It is her truth. It is her story that you are there to understand.
Wolfman - I admit I haven't caught up on your entire sitch, but like so many here, I can feel and understand your hurt, pain, and sadness. I share that.
Some days I am good at detaching other days it is real hard.
This is how it is with me. Back and forth. H seems to always be in the back of my mind, just hanging out there, not causing anxiety, then BAM. I'm obsessing about what's occurred, his relationship with his GF (I don't even know if he still has one, or it's revving up to them moving in together). I KNOW I have no control over it, and it's useless.
But what we are going through defies logic. Many on this forum advised me to just let the feelings wash over, and move on. I try to practice this. I go to prayer or my bible study when I am having a particularly rough patch.
My H moved out Oct 1, and he still says he doesn't know what to do. That he's in a minefield. He hasn't even mentioned the word D. So, this week I've decided to live "as if" H isn't in the picture at all. It's helping ever so slowly. 30 years I've known him, and our 28th Anniv. is approaching next month. It stinks. But it helps to know that other people understand, doesn't it?
Good luck on your journey.
My W is ready to move ahead with the D. She wants to pay the mediator to draw up the paperwork. I am having such a hard time with this. I was good all last week with detaching and accepting what’s to come. And as soon as she brought up paying the mediator tomorrow to move forward with D my stomach dropped. I don’t know why, when I knew this was coming. I guess a very small piece of me was hoping she would change her mind. That small piece keeps holding me
back. I wanna say something like, “we don’t have to do this, we can work this out.” I won’t because I know that makes me look desperate and that’s the last thing I want to do. Every time I think I am moving on I fall back. I will keep plugging away and take it one day at a time.
Grace. I completely understand. I feel like I’m moving on but she is always taking up a little space in the back of my mind. Grace it does help that other people understand the hurt and pain. I am right here with you Grace and everyone else who is going through this. Posting on here helps. Thanks everyone. I look forward to everyone replies. It helps me with my emotions and understanding.
It is very painful for us to go thru his while seeing them be all carefree about it. Waiting for freedom from us.
I'll tell you this. Its normal what we feel. My whole side of the family is worst than me. My father is back on his pills
worried about my son, my sister got her neck rash back and indigestion. My brother is in California (I am in Greece) and he calls daily worried sick.
Heck her own father (my father in law) calls me to get feedback and when I told him I get the shakes sometimes he said he is on xanax every night and sleeping pills and up to 3 packs smokes a day.
I think this blisfull cocoon our spouses are in protects them.
But to play devil;s advocate, its probably to how they saw us in the eariler years when they were worried about the R.
Still drastic move on their part this whole D.
Just want to talk. I don’t know why, just having a rough day. Didn’t see my kids a lot this weekend and it really stinks. Some days I am good at detaching other days it is real hard. Had a little talk with W about relationship, I know we are not suppose to. It came up because we talked about what days who has the kids. It just hurts that she has no desire to work on relationship. All she talks about is things that came up years ago and she can’t let them go. Why is it as a LBS we have a hard time detaching when they are treating us so bad. Yet it seems like it was easy for them. At least that’s what they show. Just needed a safe space to talk. I take it this “fog” is never going to lift. She said she has zero feelings for me. I hurts to hear hay when you have 19 years together and 14 years of marriage.
Wolf, I’m right there with you. 18 years together, 14 married. They treat us like an a general acquaintance, no love, no feelings of care. We have been cast aside like trash and yet it is nearly impossible for us to let them go. We cling to all the memories of the good times which they have re-written as negative. We keep imagining how great our future together can be now that we are aware of all the ways we hurt them, if only they were willing to try.
It’s easy to keep going back in forth in our minds if we should keep fighting or accept that the present is how it will always be and give up. What keeps bringing me back to standing are my kids and vows of for better or worse. I want to offer you encouragement to stay patient and have faith that happiness will return once we withstand this greatest trial in our lives.
Just want to talk. I don’t know why, just having a rough day. Didn’t see my kids a lot this weekend and it really stinks. Some days I am good at detaching other days it is real hard. Had a little talk with W about relationship, I know we are not suppose to. It came up because we talked about what days who has the kids. It just hurts that she has no desire to work on relationship. All she talks about is things that came up years ago and she can’t let them go. Why is it as a LBS we have a hard time detaching when they are treating us so bad. Yet it seems like it was easy for them. At least that’s what they show. Just needed a safe space to talk. I take it this “fog” is never going to lift. She said she has zero feelings for me. I hurts to hear hay when you have 19 years together and 14 years of marriage.
Wolf, I’m right there with you. 18 years together, 14 married. They treat us like an a general acquaintance, no love, no feelings of care. We have been cast aside like trash and yet it is nearly impossible for us to let them go. We cling to all the memories of the good times which they have re-written as negative. We keep imagining how great our future together can be now that we are aware of all the ways we hurt them, if only they were willing to try.
It’s easy to keep going back in forth in our minds if we should keep fighting or accept that the present is how it will always be and give up. What keeps bringing me back to standing are my kids and vows of for better or worse. I want to offer you encouragement to stay patient and have faith that happiness will return once we withstand this greatest trial in our lives.
curtis the problem is that while ". They treat us like an a general acquaintance, no love, no feelings of care. We have been cast aside like trash and yet it is nearly impossible for us to let them go." is true, it is only for now. It doesn't mean it is permanent. One of the most powerful thoughts someone gave me during my sitch was, after I questioned if she'd ever change her mind due to her being stubborn and not changing easily, was this:
"You are worried she can't change her mind from wanting a D. However, she took vows with you before God, and friends and family, to love honor and cherish, forsaking all others, til death do you part. And she changed from that. Why can't she change her mind again?"
Pretty powerful would you think about it.
So you are right, we struggle with giving up, but the fact that they changed their mind once proving they can again is a powerful foretelling for what is possible. You are 100% right, for your kids and for your own ethics and morals, to continue to fight for the marriage. And it certainly takes patience. No way will anyone ever be successful in DBing without patience.
Had a little talk with W about relationship, I know we are not suppose to. It came up because we talked about what days who has the kids. It just hurts that she has no desire to work on relationship. All she talks about is things that came up years ago and she can’t let them go.
Uuuuuugh. Look, there are reasons behind our advise. You may not know what the reasons are, but that does not mean you should just ignore the advice and do whatever you want. You may have heard the picnic analogy, she is inside her castle with the drawbridge pulled up and you are outside on the lawn. How can you get her out of the castle? Can you do it by standing outside the castle and yelling for her to come out and throwing rocks at it? No, but that is exactly what you are doing. The ONLY way she will EVER come out of the castle is if you sit down and have a picnic. She'll look out the window and see you out there on the lush lawn enjoying yourself. And she will start to wonder what you are up to. She may even lower the drawbridge for a better look. She will eventually approach you to see what's going on. If you make ANY move towards her- wave her over, send her an invitation, invite her in, set up a chair for her then guess what she goes running back to the castle and yanks the drawbridge up again. You have to let HER approach YOU. And it takes far longer than you want.
How do you "throw a picnic", what does that mean. It means you detach, give her time and space, work on you, and get out and GAL. It means you don't EVER ask about the M. What did you gain by asking? Nothing at all, because she's only telling you what she feels right now. She'll use words like it's over "forever" and there is "no chance" but that is still only a reflection of her feelings at this one moment in time. Her feelings may be drastically different next year, or next month, or next week. But not as long as you keep asking.
I take it this “fog” is never going to lift.
Do you think that every time you drive through fog? "Oh man, well this is it, I'll be driving through fog the rest of my life." Or do you realize that it is temporary? Why do you think we refer to it as fog?
Struggling today. Had a little conversation with W. And it’s amazing how she just cannot let go of the past. She talks about the few things I did wrong in our marriage and never lets these things go. For example, there 4 separate times we got into big arguments and I left and went for a drive and came back 3 hours later. Well she makes it out like when I left it was the end of the world. And she constantly brings that up. Last time i did that was 4 years ago. When we went to counseling the counselor said that it wasn’t bad for me to leave and cool of before I did something worse. Yet that’s all she talks about. I just struggle like so many on here because I don’t want D, but there is nothing I can do. She keeps trucking ahead. I am doing my 180s, GAL but it looks inevitable that we will end up D. If you all are wondering why D bothers me so much is because I do t believe in it, unless there is some sort of abuse. Which there was absolutely none. My detaching feels like a rubber band. I keep detaching but then all of a sudden, “bang” I snap back to really missing her and hurting. And really missing the kids!!!
Wolfman, read any of our sitches, we have all been through these same feelings. I am vehemently opposed to D. Morally, ethically, and religiously. I can completely relate. But here is the one truth that opened my eyes more than any other:
It takes 2 to make a marriage, only one to get a divorce. And I cannot control her. I can only control me.
That is why 180s, detachment and GAL are so important. It takes the focus off of her and what SHE is choosing to do, and puts your focus and energy back on you.
You can't control her. So don't try. Every time you try to control her you push her further away.
And all of our spouses laser-focus on our mistakes. It is how they justify their actions. You can't change the past. All you can do is do the right thing from this point forward.
Wolf...you are VERY early days in your sitch. Grant yourself the grace to be patient with yourself and how you are feeling. All of us who have gone before you can relate exactly to how you are feeling and even wrote the exact words you just did. I spent a very large amount of my time analyzing the past only to have many vets on here properly tell me that it mattered not...and yet while I understood they were correct, I did it anyway.
As you say, there is nothing you can do with W doing what she wants so the quicker you can come to acceptance of that fact the better off you will be. The other thing you must understand is that you DO have the ability to control the effect W's actions have on you. Understandably that will not be easy and you are still so fresh with all of this, but it is a truth. This was not the life that you wanted nor the decision you made, but it is your truth and you must find it within you to address it in as positive a way for your life and your children's life as you can.
Keep posting here as you need to vent, share and ask for advice. You are just entering the tunnel and there is no quick way out the other side unfortunately. Time and patience and forgiveness and grace for yourself are the tools to survive. Focus on your health, getting out of the house especially with spring coming on and when you are with your children love them like you never have before. You will survive whatever happens, but for now you simply must endure and put one day after the next.
Praying for you as I've been in your shoes...
-B
Anotherstander thank you for the analogy. It definitely gives me a clearer understanding of what I am doing wrong and what needs to be done. I will definitely remember the castle and picnic. I wanted so bad to text her today about not doing this but that would be controlling and desperate (throwing rocks at the draw bridge).
Steve I like the quote. That is true too, never thought of it that way. Thank you for both of you keeping me in check!!!
Last night I gave her my half of the money for the mediator. And she saw I was not happy about this. She text me later on saying that I was not the only one hurting, that everyone is hurting from this. Again, I will not understand her way of thinking that if she is hurting, why not work on the marriage? I am just a different person than her. She has always been a “runner” constantly running from her problems.
Wolfy, I know you don't like when I post on your thread because I don't blow sunshine up your a$$. Know that I am sorry for the pain you are going through and I am trying to help you. Bitching and complaining and trying to use logic and reason is not going to work for you right now. Please respond to my questions below:
Had a little conversation with W. And it’s amazing how she just cannot let go of the past.
Why do you keep having these talks? How are they working for you?
She talks about the few things I did wrong in our marriage and never lets these things go. For example, there 4 separate times we got into big arguments and I left and went for a drive and came back 3 hours later. Well she makes it out like when I left it was the end of the world. And she constantly brings that up. Last time i did that was 4 years ago. When we went to counseling the counselor said that it wasn’t bad for me to leave and cool of before I did something worse.
This is all BS. Do not think about it for a second.
I am doing my 180s, GAL but it looks inevitable that we will end up D.
What are your 180s and give me some examples of your GAL activities?
If you all are wondering why D bothers me so much is because I do t believe in it, unless there is some sort of abuse. Which there was absolutely none.
Ok so you don't believe in D and she doesn't believe she can be happy again with you. So she should sacrifice her beliefs for your beliefs?
My detaching feels like a rubber band. I keep detaching but then all of a sudden, “bang” I snap back to really missing her and hurting. And really missing the kids!!!
Describe to me your definition of detachment.
And she saw I was not happy about this. She text me later on saying that I was not the only one hurting, that everyone is hurting from this. Again, I will not understand her way of thinking that if she is hurting, why not work on the marriage?
Because she has been hurting a long time. In her eyes she's been hurting for years and you just started hurting. She sees your hurting as you being selfish, because in her eyes you are still blind to the hurt she's going through now and has been for quite some time. She also does not see recon as an end to the hurting, recon would be her putting herself into a position to be hurt over and over again for more years. And she is not willing to go there right now.
^^^ That is how she is currently thinking and whether you agree with it or not, you need to try and understand it.
LH I like when you post on my thread. I don’t take things personally, I take it as you are trying to help me. So please keep it coming. The R talks I have them because I slip up. For some reason I think they will help and of course they never do. I need to stop them, permanently. My GAL activities are going to the gym, going out with friends spending time with family. 180’s not calling her or texting her first, not following her around (which I did at the beginning) validating a lot more instead of arguing, listening to her. Your question about beliefs is where I have a problem. Her beliefs are that she is not happy and D me will solve all of that and it won’t. I get that in her eyes it will but it’s going to make life for her and my children harder. So my beliefs are about family and working through hard times.
Definition of detachment, not thinking about the other person, creating space emotionally and physically. But love from a distance, not to be mean or indifferent.
The other reason I honestly believe my W wants this divorce because I will have the kids and she will be free of any responsibility, growing up for her she had NONE until we got married. Once we had kids I could see she was starting to become overwhelmed. I tried to help her every way possible. From changing diapers, feeding, cleaning, cooking, food shopping. It that has maintained as they grew up. As they grew up they became involved in activities and the responsibility grew. She would ask me for more and more help. It got to the point the only thing she did was take them to school and laundry. I did the cleaning, shopping, all the bills, landscaping, cooking most of the time, pool, 2 jobs, taking them to activities. So, when she would ask for me to help her I would say how much more can I do? That would start an argument. So with the D she now only has to worry about herself some days and I think she loves that idea. Coming from a woman who wanted a family so bad when we were first dating and married. To wanting to be free from all of that.
The R talks I have them because I slip up. For some reason I think they will help and of course they never do. I need to stop them, permanently.
Ok. No MORE slip ups. You can not use logic and reason.
My GAL activities are going to the gym, going out with friends spending time with family.
These aren't bad. How about hobbies, running reading self help books?
180’s not calling her or texting her first, not following her around (which I did at the beginning) validating a lot more instead of arguing, listening to her.
Those aren't necessary 180s they are not pursuing and validation. Those are good but 180s are more bad habits you had. What are you doing about becoming financially independent?
Her beliefs are that she is not happy and D me will solve all of that and it won’t.
First off you don't know. It could make her the happiest person in the world. You have to accept and understand that this is feel right now.
I get that in her eyes it will but it’s going to make life for her and my children harder.
If this is what you truly believe then give her what she wants and she will completely fall on her face and beg you to come back.
So my beliefs are about family and working through hard times.
Again, those are your beliefs. Not hers so to her you are being selfish right now.
Definition of detachment, not thinking about the other person, creating space emotionally and physically. But love from a distance, not to be mean or indifferent.
No not really.
Today I will commit myself to detachment. I will allow myself and those around me the freedom to be as they are. I will not rigidly impose my idea of how things should be. I will not force solutions on problems, thereby creating new problems. I will participate in everything with detached involvement.
Today I will factor in uncertainty as an essential ingredient of my experience. In my willingness to accept uncertainty, solutions will spontaneously emerge out of the problem, out of the confusion, disorder, and chaos. The more uncertain things seem to be, the more secure I will feel, because uncertainty is my path to freedom. Through the wisdom of uncertainty, I will find my security.
I will step into the field of all possibilities and anticipate the excitement that can occur when I remain open to infinity of choices. When I step into the field of all possibilities, I will experience all the fun, adventure, magic, and mystery of life.
Once we had kids I could see she was starting to become overwhelmed. I tried to help her every way possible. From changing diapers, feeding, cleaning, cooking, food shopping. It that has maintained as they grew up. As they grew up they became involved in activities and the responsibility grew. She would ask me for more and more help. It got to the point the only thing she did was take them to school and laundry. I did the cleaning, shopping, all the bills, landscaping, cooking most of the time, pool, 2 jobs, taking them to activities. So, when she would ask for me to help her I would say how much more can I do? That would start an argument.
So in essence you were her butler. Do you think that is attractive?
So with the D she now only has to worry about herself some days and I think she loves that idea. Coming from a woman who wanted a family so bad when we were first dating and married. To wanting to be free from all of that.
If this is true is that the kind of woman you want to be with for the rest of your life?
Let me know if you do not want 2x4's
And it’s amazing how she just cannot let go of the past. She talks about the few things I did wrong in our marriage and never lets these things go.
It is amazing how you think she should. Just validate. "Yup, I was wrong. I am sorry."
I don’t want D, but there is nothing I can do. She keeps trucking ahead.
You are right. You can change your behavior until the cows home and she might not care. That is why you have to accept that D is coming. You are walking two paths in parallel. 1) Prepare for divorce. 2) Make positive changes in your behavior.
If you all are wondering why D bothers me so much is because I do t believe in it, unless there is some sort of abuse. Which there was absolutely none.
That is your POV. Not your W's. She believed you abused her for years. This is straight out of the WAW/WAS handbook. All the abuse was mental and emotional. Not physical.
Love the replies on this thread. Feeling for you Wolfman, as I am in the same boat.
Seems many of the vets here have crossed over to the other side and share their wisdom with us.
AnotherStander threw some extra light on their POV today in his reply that kind of blew my mind.
Still digesting that. Their being unhappy. Us being the problem. And he prefaced it correctly "In their eyes.."
That POV will change with time, when life's hardships will continue even without us in the picture.
But as my IC said, by then it will be too late. It will never be the same.
AnotherStander threw some extra light on their POV today in his reply that kind of blew my mind.
Still digesting that. Their being unhappy. Us being the problem. And he prefaced it correctly "In their eyes.."
You are exactly right. We can argue about how "wrong" a WAW is but the fact of the matter is her PERCEPTION is her REALITY. So even though what she is saying may be outrageous and patently false, it is still how she sees things.
A lot of LBS's struggle with the fact that a lot of this just doesn't make sense. They think if they could just explain things to the WAW then they will help her to see the light and emerge from the fog. The more they try the worse they make their situation though, because they are not dealing with someone who is thinking logically. The WAW is a whirlwind of emotions and raw feelings and you simply cannot beg/plead/negotiate/ rationalize with that. It's very hard for us to even imagine their mindset, but it would be like you losing a loved one and you're in that whirlwind of emotions and grief and you have someone telling you "well yeah but I lost my favorite pair of socks this morning and I don't understand why you don't feel bad for me." Your reaction would be outrage that this person brings their petty little problem to your doorstep when you are completely overwhelmed with grief yourself. Follow what I'm saying? That's her attitude- "I've been hurting so deeply and for so long, and now you want me to turn my life inside out because you've been hurting a few weeks, how dare you."
This is why we constantly push people to listen and validate. She really is hurting, so if you set your own pain aside and you listen, and you validate her feelings instead of constantly hitting her with "poor me I feel worse" then maybe she'll actually start feeling like you care.
There is a lot I want to answer. How do I don’t nose quote boxes. This way it will be easy to follow. Sorry for being the rookie.
Very well put AnotherStander. As always you provide us with great food for thought.
I will add one more item to that train of thought. And I do this because of the unique circumstance I was in where I am now visiting the same IC that my wife fired. I get to see what her last days of pre WW status were like.
Even though he cant share confidential stuff, I know pieces that affected me.
So the missing ingredient is the Affair.
That complicated things way beyond our LBS coping skill level.
From the IC pov, things may have been repairable pre-Affair. But the moment your WW wife falls emotionally for another guy its game over. Even a one night stand is preferable to her falling in love with him (emotional affair).
At this point the IC told me, you could offer her a million dollars and she wont let go of that Affair.
Its impossible to turn around. Its like a drug addict getting their craving. Nothing else will do.
In time they will regret it, that also he said
I guess its what we call them here on the forum: a teething 2 year old, or rebellious teen, or abducted by aliens.
I always though that I studied human nature and that I understood basic human psychology but this transformation of the WW-WAS-MLC (pic one) is beyond me.
Somewhere on the forum today I read a great post by one of us here saying that the best screenwriters in Hollywood couldnt dream up this scenario that we are facing.
.
There is a lot I want to answer. How do I don’t nose quote boxes. This way it will be easy to follow. Sorry for being the rookie.
I hit quote button, then use full edit button, Highlight and delete what I don't want then high light a block of text and click the Quote Icon. do this for each block then I go back and add answers. I then use preview to make sure I did not mess up
From the IC pov, things may have been repairable pre-Affair. But the moment your WW wife falls emotionally for another guy its game over.
I disagree with the IC POV. I have seen many repair their marriage after this. PuppyDogTails is a perfect example. He busted the affair and he busted the divorce.
Ready2Change, I share your view (hence my being here). Thats why I said in his pov.
It was disheartening to hear it though, cause it sure means that things got tougher post affair.
Will look up Puppy's sitch. thanks.
Originally Posted by Wolfman
My GAL activities are going to the gym, going out with friends spending time with family.
These aren't bad. How about hobbies, running reading self help books?
I also play in a men’s baseball league and I have read DR, “I love you but I’m not in love with you” and now the 5 love languages.
Originally Posted by Wolfman
180’s not calling her or texting her first, not following her around (which I did at the beginning) validating a lot more instead of arguing, listening to her.
Those aren't necessary 180s they are not pursuing and validation. Those are good but 180s are more bad habits you had. What are you doing about becoming financially independent?
I am financially independent, I am a teacher for 15 years and a real estate agent. So, I do ok for myself. My 180’s are just listening more, staying calm when she blows up, spending more time with the kids.
LH you made a comment about me being her butler because I did so much. That is was part of the problem, she had no responsibility growing up, w grew up with a silver spoon in her mouth. So I did a lot from the very beginning, once we separated I slowed down doing all those things and she felt it right away. She would make comments like your not going to clean up anymore, I would answer I did the kids made a mess again. Or she would say are you going to vacuum. I would reply the floors don t look dirty. She has even said, she doesn’t know how she will keep up with the house. That is not my problem.
Yesterday she text me this:
I know you are very upset and please don’t mistake my anger for this not hurting me... we need to figure this out for the sake of our children so they don’t suffer more than they need to. I replied that I am sorry that you are hurting and I know this must be very hard for you too. I said I don’t want the children to suffer either. I am trying to come to terms with this but it is hard. I will keep GAL and detaching.
W,
Sorry I think I have your sitch mixed up with someone else who struggles with finances.
So because she had no responsibility growing up you think it is acceptable to become her butler? Does you W work?
Listen if you are banking on a recon based on her not being able to keep up with the house you are going to be in for a rue awaking my friend. Right now it is about respect and you seem to struggle in that department.
This is probably the hardest thing you will probably ever do in your life. You can't run from it. You best chance to recon is to face it head on and listen to the advice you are giving here.
My w does work too. She is in education. I never looked at myself being a butler. I was just trying to be that great husband. There were times I absolutely felt that way. I would get angry and stop for a while. When I did nothing happened, meaning the house was disgusting, bathrooms would smell, floors were gross. Then I couldn’t take it anymore how disgusting things were, so I would clean again. I am not basing rec on her keeping up with the house it was just a statement. I want to earn my respect back, I want to create a new M. I am here so hit me with the 2x4’s. I am willing to put the work in. That’s why I am on here all the time. Looking for the vets advice.
Different note I have been reading up on some of your situations and man I feel like I am reading about my life on how the W acted and said. I have made many mistakes and really wish I was on here 8 months ago. I my small defense I did try other programs (paid for 2 others) it seemed to not work. I wish I went to this one first!!!
Where do you stand on moving back into the house?
Wasn’t planning on moving back. She went to mediator yesterday to get the paperwork started on D. She is also working on buying me out.
Where are you living now? Not a good enough excuse my friend.
With my parents. Once she buys me out and I get my money I will be buying a home.
So what do you think would gather more respect, moving back in and taking the master bedroom or when things get tough running to Mom and Dad's house?
Have you thought about her trying to charge you with abandonment?
Taking back the MBR definitely more respect. I have thought about her charging me with abandonment. We have to have something drawn up.
So when are you moving back in?
So when are you moving back in?
He doesn't understand how critically important this is.
I understand i will earn my respect back. But I feel like it’s too late in the game. With her buying me out. The house could be hers in a month. Then I have to be out.
Since I moved out she has felt some pressure. I posted about how she locked herself out of the house and basically had a nervous breakdown. She has complained to me already how she has to do everything around the house. Like you said I was basically her butler for a long time, now she has to take responsibility.
In your shoes, when I had cash in hand, then I would move out. Not a minute before.
If I remember right, you said you moved out for your own sanity, and it had nothing to do with buying you out. It was until we all told you to move back in that you brought up the buy out. WAWs/WWs are notorious for not following through. I have a feeling that we'll be voting in the next presidential election before she ever buys you out.
I feel like it’s too late in the game.
It most likely is. But what if it isn't? Don't you think it is worth giving it a shot?
What about your kids? How often are you spending time with them? Would moving back give you more time to enjoy them?
2 things. Steve you said they are notorious for not following through. My w has followed through on everything so far. She found the mediator, made all the appointments, brought him money yesterday to start the paperwork. She does not back down or slow down.
Ready2change you even agree it is most likely over too. Me moving in is going to enrage her, she will feel disrespected, and not be a good environment for my kids. If this was a few months ago, or if we haven’t even gone to a mediator then I would be moving back in today. Unless I am truly missing something please tell me? I don’t she will look at me with respect because I moved in, she will look at it as he doesn’t listen he is doing whereever he wants again.
W,
Stop BSing yourself you are being ruled by fear. My ex filed in March 2017 and everything was finalized and she moved out in July 2018. Are you going to live with your parents for the next 1-18 months? Are you still paying the bills?
2 things. Steve you said they are notorious for not following through. My w has followed through on everything so far. She found the mediator, made all the appointments, brought him money yesterday to start the paperwork. She does not back down or slow down.
Well, sometimes that's the case. We see a lot of sitches here and most of them have a lot in common but no two are exactly identical. Most of the time if you remove all pressure the WAS will back off the D, but there are cases where they are full steam ahead no matter what. Wolf, for now I would suggest staying where you are and seeing how things shake out. If she does indeed proceed then you will have to be out soon anyway. But if she suddenly puts it into neutral, then you might go ahead and move back because then you would have a reason (IE, if she doesn't file then you don't get your settlement and you can't afford your own place).
Me moving in is going to enrage her, she will feel disrespected, and not be a good environment for my kids. If this was a few months ago, or if we haven’t even gone to a mediator then I would be moving back in today. Unless I am truly missing something please tell me? I don’t she will look at me with respect because I moved in, she will look at it as he doesn’t listen he is doing whereever he wants again.
You are correct. She will rant and rave and try to make you miserable. Deep inside she might have a kernel of respect for you, but yeah, outwardly she'll never show that.
It's interesting that you did so much of the housework. Usually when a WAS goes AWOL that's one of their standard excuses. Yours is an excellent example of how someone can be a dutiful husband doing all the heavy lifting around the house and STILL get BD'd, which just kind of shows that they're just looking for excuses to justify BD. If you did ABC then you got BD'd because you didn't XYZ, and vice versa.
she will look at it as he doesn’t listen he is doing what ever he wants again.
So???
You are doing what is right for your kids.
W:Angry"H, bla bla bla ba WHY ARE YOU HERE!!!!! bla bla bla"
H:calmly holding eye contact "I believe it is best that I stay here"
W:"Bla bla bla"
H:"I understand you feel that way" walk away into Master bed room"
W"BLA BAL BLA #$^%@# BLA BLA $#($Q# BLA BLA $#q#$&!!!!!!"
H"I like it in here. You are free to sleep where ever you want"
W"BLA BAL BLA #$^%@# BLA BLA $#($Q# BLA BLA $#q#$&!!!!!!"
H"I an sorry you feel that way"
W"BLA BAL BLA #$^%@# BLA BLA $#($Q# BLA BLA $#q#$&!!!!!!"
H"It must be hard to feel that way"
W"BLA BAL BLA #$^%@# BLA BLA $#($Q# BLA BLA $#q#$&!!!!!!"
H"I will have to think about that"
W"BLA BAL BLA #$^%@# BLA BLA $#($Q# BLA BLA $#q#$&!!!!!!"
H"I have not decided"
It's interesting that you did so much of the housework. Usually when a WAS goes AWOL that's one of their standard excuses. Yours is an excellent example of how someone can be a dutiful husband doing all the heavy lifting around the house and STILL get BD'd, which just kind of shows that they're just looking for excuses to justify BD. If you did ABC then you got BD'd because you didn't XYZ, and vice versa.
Depends on how it is done. I did 90% of the housework prior to BD. But I did it very passive-aggressively, muttering the whole time. Angrily even. Before she went wayward, she come into the kitchen when I was cleaning it, loudly and angrily, and she be like "stop, I will do it!" And I would say "Nope, you had your chance!" (She is a SAHM.)
So yes, while I did a lot around the house it wasn't done in a happy, constructive way.
I did it without complaining or muttering. Today is a day I do not see my kids and it is hard. I miss them all. Quick question, do I call to say goodnight to kids or do I go over and say goodnight? I am only 2 miles away. Only reason I ask I don’t want my w to think I am going over there to see her.
Screw what she thinks. Go see your kids
Screw what she thinks. Go see your kids. Do not leave.
Tell me what what you all think. So my son does hip hop competitions. Today I asked my w what time my son’s Dre’s rehearsal was, she said 7:30. When I got there tonight w was sitting in the dance studio and when I got I. The doorway she said hi and I said hi. Then I sat about 5 feet away over by my daughter. We just watched his rehearsal for half an hour. Afterwards we walked out together and I said I will be by to say goodnight to the kids, I just have to go to the store first. After 20 minutes she text me if I was coming so. THey are going to bed. I got there and said good night to my kids and then left, I said a quick bye to w on my way out. I went into the garage the get a funnel, I had to put some oil in my car. So I put oil in the car and left. Then I get a text from w what took me so long to pull away? I said checking the car. She said everything ok? I gave a thumbs up.👍 Then she said glad I asked. You know what I won’t ask anymore. This is one of the reasons our marriage fell apart... I can’t deal with the constant mood swings. Just know that I’m trying to put my anger aside to be able to coparent our kids as best as I can but you are making this very hard.
But it’s NEVER mattered what I think or how I feel anyway. Ok so apparently NOW that I text you don’t want to talk but when you were texting ME.... you would get upset if I didn’t respond right away... see an issue at all? This was one text after another. Then she called me that she can’t take my mood swings that I have a mood disorder. I said why donyou think that? She said that I didn’t talk to her at dance. I said I said hello. She said no you didn’t, I said I absolutely did, did you not hear me, she said yeah but I said it first. I said ok but I did say hello. She said then before I saw you in her car texting. I said you did? Because i was putting oil in my car. She said I saw you on the phone, I said yeah to look what time it was. Then she said it’s not like I was watching you. Hmmm she said I can’t deal with your mood swings and she said everyone has said they have seen my mood swings. I said I am sorry if you feel that way. Then she asked if I was picking up the kids tomorrow and I said yes. So, let me ask all of you, is my non pursuit getting to her? Is that why she is saying all these things. Is this a temp check? Please help because she keeps texting me. I am not responding right away and I think it’s driving her nuts.
Now she text me this: I’m sorry it has to be this way.... but I guess we can’t figure this out. I asked, figure what out? She said get along.
Yes they hate when you start to detach. They use all sorts of tactics to try to get you reattached. Including guilt.
Don't bite.
Almost sounds like "gas lighting" to me. Apparantly I have a "mood disorder" and a "different incompatible perception and personality" to my W too. The silence for the last 6 months has been killing me. But at least W hasn't been complaining that "she feels like she's walking on eggshells" around me, but it still comes up on the list of her many things she doesn't like about me.
I'm ready to give up. Give up on Hope, give up on DB, if I even understood what it really was in the first place, and give up on trying because nothing works. The cards are just going to fall where they fall, and people are going to think how they think and what they think.
If this is the right approach, why does it feel so wrong? What is “gas lighting”?
If this is the right approach, why does it feel so wrong? What is “gas lighting”?
It is the most counter-intuitive thing you'll ever do. However, the opposite (pursuit and pressure) certainly doesn't work.
Wolf, pretty sure we've gone over this before, but again, NOTHING YOU DO RIGHT NOW IS GOING TO BE ANYTHING BUT CRAP TO HER. Read that. Understand it. Burn it into your mind. Her perception of you right now is this: you are lower than dirt to her. She doesn't like you and may even hate you. You are responsible for every bad thing in her life, ever. Heck it's probably your fault that a bully stole her lunch money in the 3rd grade. Right now you are coming here every time you interact with her and basically saying "I'm DB'ing and she's still being mean, why isn't it working?" It isn't working because the results aren't instant. The results take TIME. A lot of it. It rarely has immediate impact.
So what do you do? You give her zero ammo to hate you. You do that by pulling back and leaving her alone, but doing it in a polite, respectful, loving way. Don't be cold and indifferent. You walked in and sat elsewhere and didn't say anything to her until she said hi to you. That's not giving her space, that's being cold and indifferent. Sit next to her, it won't kill you. You are still coparents. Sure if she has some OM there then sit elsewhere. But if she's alone then sit with her. Do you want S and D seeing parents united in support of them or sitting on opposite sides of the room like something out of War of the Roses?
Afterwards we walked out together and I said I will be by to say goodnight to the kids, I just have to go to the store first.
If you want to see the kids, ASK her if it's ok to come by, don't TELL her. It's HER house now, you need to respect that. You left, that's part of it. You can't come and go as you please anymore (which is another reason we always say not to leave). Don't go to the store first, go by there and THEN go by the store. It's disrespectful to tell her you're coming by when it suits you and then just take your time about it. It's also disrespectful to linger in the driveway. If you need an oil funnel then ask her before you walk out if she would mind if you grab it out of the garage. Again, be respectful at all times even if she isn't.
I agree with AS. It is very easy for the LBS to slip into passive-aggressiveness in dealing with the WAS/WS. Try to avoid that. Treat her how you'd want to be treated.
I do disagree slightly with AS on the house. Until she buys you out it is her house and you do have rights. I think it would only confuse you to say you HAVE the right to move back in, but you DON'T have the right to come and go as you please. I would be courteous about. "I need a funnel from the garage, so I am going to pick that up when I come over to say goodnight to the kids." So treat it like it is still your house (because it is) but be respectful and courteous to her.
AS I am coming on here to make sure I am on the right track. I know one single day or act is going to change my situation. I just want to see if what I am doing is right and if and what I should change or adjust. Please don’t confuse me coming on here thinking that one day should change everything. I am on here seeking all the vets help and working on DBing the beat I can. I know my situation looks real bad but I don’t want to quit. Like how I should have sat next to her, I thought that would be pressure or pursuit but now I know it wasnt. I just want guidance, granted one thing I know I got a lot of heat on was moving back in. I don’t want to go over that again. I get the rational but don’t think in my situation where things are will help.
W,
I would be pressure if you sat next her and said "why are you leaving me" or something along those lines.
I treat my ex like a business partner. We will sit together at games and events.The product we are selling is my kids future. We will discuss together everything we need to discuss to ensure the products sells. We may also occasionally discuss the weather and I will even joke with her sometimes. Once in awhile things regarding family members but I will not discuss with her intimate details of my life. Those days are over. Not her business anymore.
It's going to take a long time before you will feel comfortable around her again but it will happen at some point.
^^Great description from LH, that's exactly what I'm talking about^^
I just want to see if what I am doing is right and if and what I should change or adjust. Please don’t confuse me coming on here thinking that one day should change everything. I am on here seeking all the vets help and working on DBing the beat I can. I know my situation looks real bad but I don’t want to quit.
There's a guy here that used to post more (he's in the UK his handle escapes me but I'm sure someone will know who I mean), he still pops in now and then but not as much. You remind me a lot of him. He was very codependent on his W to the point that he had no life of his own, he depended on her to feed him, take care of him, etc. I don't think he even had a job, or if he did it paid really poorly so he depended on her financially too. So when she left him he was in a really bad way. Super depressed, freaking out, desperate. He was a great listener and a quick study though, and he took the advice here to heart and did exactly what he was told even though it felt completely wrong to him. He was a model DB'er and before long was counseling others here. He turned his life around and became a person he was not before- confident, secure, self-sufficient, independent. His wife was stunned by the turnaround, and found the new him wildly attractive. They did end up reconciling, and rather quickly compared to most here (I think Steve's is the quickest I can think of and his was 2nd, less than a year). So yes, it can happen and there is no reason to quit now!
Tell me what what you all think. So my son does hip hop competitions. Today I asked my w what time my son’s Dre’s rehearsal was, she said 7:30. When I got there tonight w was sitting in the dance studio and when I got I. The doorway she said hi and I said hi. Then I sat about 5 feet away over by my daughter.
This is perfect.
I always got to events early. One kid doing the event and the other two watching or playing (IE one kid in formal soccer practice while I went off to the side and kicked ball with one or both of the other two). My kids would come sit by me. W had the choice to sit where she wanted. If I got there after her, I would sit by the kids.
We just watched his rehearsal for half an hour. Afterwards we walked out together and I said I will be by to say goodnight to the kids, I just have to go to the store first. After 20 minutes she text me if I was coming so. They are going to bed.
Nothing wrong here either. You communicated your plan to her. She knew your were going to the store. You also know what time bed time is. In the future, just be more specific on when you will be there (ie state a time like 7:45).
I got there and said good night to my kids and then left, I said a quick bye to w on my way out. I went into the garage the get a funnel, I had to put some oil in my car. So I put oil in the car and left.
IN the future,communicate these things before saying good bye.
Then I get a text from w what took me so long to pull away? I said checking the car. She said everything ok? I gave a thumbs up.👍
Perfect.
Then she said glad I asked. You know what I won’t ask anymore. This is one of the reasons our marriage fell apart... I can’t deal with the constant mood swings. Just know that I’m trying to put my anger aside to be able to co-parent our kids as best as I can but you are making this very hard. But it’s NEVER mattered what I think or how I feel anyway. Ok so apparently NOW that I text you don’t want to talk but when you were texting ME.... you would get upset if I didn’t respond right away... see an issue at all?
I believe it is OK not to respond to these. You can also validate.
H:"I have thought about what you texted. I agree you are right. I am sorry. Thanks for sharing"
This is tactical. It is intentionally vague and confusing. But, you are communicating to her that you listened to her. That she is right. That you are sorry. (this is what she wants(or maybe needs) to hear.
She may ask for clarification. She may not. It opens dialog. It removes any emotions.
You had better choices. Learn from this. Voice mail is a very good option. Validation is another. You chose to argue.
that she can’t take my mood swings that I have a mood disorder. I said why do you think that? "that must be frustrating"
[quote]She said that I didn’t talk to her at dance. I said I said hello.
"is there something you want to talk about?"
She said no you didn’t, I said I absolutely did, did you not hear me,
"I didn't have anything to talk about. I was there to watch S"
So, let me ask all of you, is my non pursuit getting to her? Is that why she is saying all these things. Is this a temp check? Please help because she keeps texting me. I am not responding right away and I think it’s driving her nuts.
You can always post her text and voice mails here for options before you respond.
Question, those that were successful at DBing. I k ow our WAW/WW said some nasty things to us. Did they say that they had no love for you? That it was completely gone? I know don’t believe what they say, but man does that sting. Again, I know this is not solved over night. All of these things GAL, validation, 180, really will attract them? Sorry just feeling down and I guess I am just looking for some positive motivation. Thanks everyone.
Question, those that were successful at DBing. I k ow our WAW/WW said some nasty things to us. Did they say that they had no love for you? That it was completely gone? I know don’t believe what they say, but man does that sting. Again, I know this is not solved over night. All of these things GAL, validation, 180, really will attract them? Sorry just feeling down and I guess I am just looking for some positive motivation. Thanks everyone.
Oh man, yes. Obviously there is the "ILYBNILWY" standard. But my sitch was highlighted by her claiming that not only wasn't she sexually attracted to me, but had never been. Even though she had kept journals during dating and even early in our marriage where she claimed otherwise. And she didn't seem to have any arousal issues throughout our marriage.
The most hurtful thing she said to me one night, was that she say me like another guy we both know, who is pretty undesirable. I don't mean to be mean but it was very hurtful. However, to show you why you don't ever believe anything they say, and to show how quickly the way they are feeling can change, later in the same conversation (which was had late at night in bed) she propositioned me! We ended up not doing it because when she said it I paused and said "Are you sure?" And then she said "Forget it..." But to go from telling me she saw me like a guy I know she wouldn't give the time of day to, to trying to initiate sex within minutes showed me two things: 1) She had no idea what she was thinking or feeling herself 2) Despite her insistence that she wasn't sexual attracted to me, she clearly still was.
Wolf...define "successful" at DBing..
If you mean getting them back LOL my WW never said a single word in better than a year about R'ing. BUT..."success" in this situation we find ourselves in has more than one definition. I was a success in DB'ing in so far as saving myself and starting a new life...
And oh yeah, for sure I heard that..."the love is gone, I can never go back" "I have no feelings", etc. Worst things I heard were "D is the best thing for all of us including D4" and "you are not a man's man". They swing for the fences Wolf and the words stung at the time, but had ZERO effect on me as soon as I decided to see her for what she had become, save myself and move on. So long as you WANT her, you will fall prey to all of the arrows that she slings at you. When you let go and walk away you won't care what she says...you MUST recognize your value as a man and partner. Once you do, this becomes much easier.
-B
Ballast. Define successful DBing: Becoming the best person for myself whether the marriage works or not.
I wish it would mean that I was able to fix my M. I know that’s not what it means. Ballast I have been reading your situ and man I feel exactly the way you did. With the ups and downs, of knowing how to take what my S said or did. A lot of her behaviors. Very scary. 2 questions for the vets:
1. She likes to say something about what I did or didn’t do and then end with, this is why our marriage didn’t work out. She has said that numerous times to me through out this. Is that her trying to justify to herself why she is doing this or trying to make me feel guilty?
2. This weekend my son has his hip hop competition. How do I act around my W and do I always stay near her? I don’t want to look like I am chasing her but I don’t want to seem cold or ignore her? Thank you everyone for listening and the advice!!!
1. She likes to say something about what I did or didn’t do and then end with, this is why our marriage didn’t work out. She has said that numerous times to me through out this. Is that her trying to justify to herself why she is doing this or trying to make me feel guilty?
Mostly justification
2. This weekend my son has his hip hop competition. How do I act around my W and do I always stay near her? I don’t want to look like I am chasing her but I don’t want to seem cold or ignore her? Thank you everyone for listening and the advice!!!
Just be pleasant. Don't follow her around but don't avoid her either.
Did they say that they had no love for you? That it was completely gone?
They all say "ILYBINILWY". I love you like I love a distant relative. But I'm not "in love" with you, and I don't think I ever have been. I definitely never will be again. THEY ALL SAY IT. Wolf, you have read DR haven't you?
Wolf...To me at least you have the correct definition of successful. No matter whether you and her get back together or not, you are being your best self and living your best life for you. Ultimately that is all you can control.
I'm happy that perhaps in some ways what I experienced in my sitch could be of help to others. I know my reading of the sitches of other vets on here did me a world of good as well.
Agreed with LH, justification is the reason. For my sitch my WW had to project her guilt on to me and make me the bad guy as it allow her to justify what she was doing without having to look within herself. As my IC said, inside she is likely a house of cards and simply can't afford for one card to shake lest the whole thing collapse. There is benefit in that for you. At some point she will be saying stuff that you will, once back to a point of balance, reflect on and say to yourself "Ok, that's just crazy!" When you have that "hey wait a minute" revelation, your feet are then set on the path to detachment.
Agreed with LH on how to be. You be a strong, confident, pleasant man. She wants out, all good, best of luck. Be the genuine best version of yourself. H**L and if she ain't looking at you, be aware maybe some other better lady for you is!
After my W "justified" all of my behaviors, what I did do and didn't do, and led me to believe to feel so much guilt over it, still to this day somewhat... A part of me realised my worth despite my short comings. The last time she brought this up. I responded: That must have been really hard for you, but who are you trying to convince? Me? Or yourself?
Thank you all for posting. I have read DR twice. It still just stings to hear those words. I am on here all the time, I want to be a DB pro like some of you. Is it bad that I am on here all the time reading? I am trying so hard to be the best that I can be. Again, I want to be a person only a fool would leave. I hope that my w will come around but If she doesn’t I will be ready for the next relationship, whenever that is.
Ballast I’m still reading your situation and man, I feel like I am reading about myself. The roller coaster of emotions how much you just want one more chance. Something i read in your situation I was wondering. This question is for everyone, it’s about wearing my wedding ring. I was wearing for the entire time. But when she paid the mediator to get the paperwork going I took it off. It feels so weird and heartbreaking that this is where I am at. Do I put it back on? I guess the question I am asking what are the pros and cons to having it on or off?
Wolfy,
There are no pros and cons to having it on or off. It is about what it means to you. My ex filed mine came off. It was at that point I decided my marriage was over so I removed my ring.
It is not bad that you are on here all the time. The frustration I sense with some of the posters is that you are getting advice and choose to ignore it. All your moves seem to be made out of fear.
There is no magic bullet. Ring on or ring off nothing changes. You have control in this process you just don't realize it yet.
Wolf as far as the ring goes, my opinion is that you do what YOU feel works for you. Myself sometimes I had it on, sometimes I had it off, just depended where my mind was at in my sitch. Some folks opinions are driven more by their sense of religion or vows or something beyond your own feelings and those are as equally valid. Bottom line the only one you have to answer to regarding your choice is you!
and in my situation it was less about one more chance and more like just a chance to hear what the H happened. I was for all intents and purposes completed ghosted and abandoned.
The only advice I did not agree with was moving back in and taking back the MBR. Only because she is buying me out soon, and to move back in to move back out in a month seems pointless. Other than that, I want advice I want to be the beat at DBing. I don’t mind the 2x4’s either. I want to do what works. What other decisions were made out of fear? I am just very confused on what to do sometimes. I hope I didn’t scare any vets away because they think I am not listening. If that is the case I am sorry to all and want to be on track!!!
Ballast. As I read through your situation I had all the same feelings and comments. There is one thing you said that I say to myself everyday. Why couldn’t she just give it one more chance for the sake of marriage and our kids. Especially when she tells me she sees how I’ve changed, she just doesn’t think it will stay. So it’s better to get a divorce than try for the sake of family!!? Something else that resonated with me about your situation, my W can’t handle responsibility and she is always trying to run from being a mom and wife. Unfortunately for me the running from w is her wanting this divorce.
W,
I will say it one more time. You would have minimum 6 months left in the house. Now you can either sit around and complain that life isn't fair or you can formulate a plan to move forward.
How have you changed and please don't say your'e a better listener?
Thank you all for posting. I have read DR twice. It still just stings to hear those words. I am on here all the time, I want to be a DB pro like some of you. Is it bad that I am on here all the time reading? I am trying so hard to be the best that I can be. Again, I want to be a person only a fool would leave. I hope that my w will come around but If she doesn’t I will be ready for the next relationship, whenever that is.
Ballast I’m still reading your situation and man, I feel like I am reading about myself. The roller coaster of emotions how much you just want one more chance. Something i read in your situation I was wondering. This question is for everyone, it’s about wearing my wedding ring. I was wearing for the entire time. But when she paid the mediator to get the paperwork going I took it off. It feels so weird and heartbreaking that this is where I am at. Do I put it back on? I guess the question I am asking what are the pros and cons to having it on or off?
You are married. You should wear your ring until you are no longer married.
AS far as reading here all the time, that is a good thing! Constant learning and self-improvement is a good thing. The cynical side of me thinks things like "I am preparing myself for the next BD!" In all seriousness, if I had remember DBing from the first second of BD my turnaround maybe would have happened even faster. Better yet, if I had remember DBing principles all along BD #2 may have never even occurred. So yes, keep reading. Keep learning.
The only advice I did not agree with was moving back in and taking back the MBR. Only because she is buying me out soon, and to move back in to move back out in a month seems pointless. Other than that, I want advice I want to be the beat at DBing. I don’t mind the 2x4’s either. I want to do what works. What other decisions were made out of fear? I am just very confused on what to do sometimes. I hope I didn’t scare any vets away because they think I am not listening. If that is the case I am sorry to all and want to be on track!!!
I hope and pray that in 6 months, when she still hasn't bought you out, that you won't be kicking yourself for not heeding that advice.
LH thank you for responding. Here is a list of how I changed, keep I mind these are things according to her I wasn’t doing or doing well after BD.
1. Every night I go into the kids rooms and kiss them goodnight.
2. I don’t yell or scream when the kids misbehave.
3. Make eye contact when she is speaking to me.
4. Keep track of kids activities.
5. Don’t argue with her and take Her advice.
As as a plan what are you referring to? I am GAL, detaching.
One comment. For the last 6 months I was living in the house she would always complain that this was no way to live with both of us there. I know I should have never left. But just on the flip side for a moment this has given space.
For the last 6 months I was living in the house she would always complain that this was no way to live with both of us there.
"I understand how you feel, and agree that all of this is difficult to deal with."
Validate.
If she continued: "You are the one that wants to end the marriage, therefore you should be the one to move out."
LH thank you for responding. Here is a list of how I changed, keep I mind these are things according to her I wasn’t doing or doing well after BD.
Ok. So she gave you a list of complaints so did you even think about whether these were even valid complaints?
1. Every night I go into the kids rooms and kiss them goodnight.
Well this is great that you are doing this now but do you think this will change her feeling towards you?
2. I don’t yell or scream when the kids misbehave.
What do you do now when this misbehave?
3. Make eye contact when she is speaking to me.
Again good, but again change her feelings?
4. Keep track of kids activities.
Give me some examples?
5. Don’t argue with her and take Her advice.
Oh so you are trying to placate her?
As as a plan what are you referring to? I am GAL, detaching.
Ok. So your definitely not detaching that is why you are often questioned if you read the book and are doing the homework.
[quote=Wolfman] One comment. For the last 6 months I was living in the house she would always complain that this was no way to live with both of us there. I know I should have never left. But just on the flip side for a moment this has given space.
I can't comment on this anymore. You will look back one day and see why it was a big mistake to leave and a big mistake not to move back in.
One comment. For the last 6 months I was living in the house she would always complain that this was no way to live with both of us there. I know I should have never left. But just on the flip side for a moment this has given space.
I can't comment on this anymore. You will look back one day and see why it was a big mistake to leave and a big mistake not to move back in.
Looking back, it was one of the biggest mistakes I made. Learn from my mistake. I was weak.
LH and Steve thank you. Let me explain my big fear here. I live in NY and child support is 25% of your gross income for 2 kids. For me that works out to be almost one paycheck every month. It is hard to live in NY on one paycheck a month. Since we went to mediation instead of using our own lawyers I got her down to 14%. That is half of one paycheck for me and still have my other one. Now if I move back in (we haven’t signed anything yet) she can say she wants the full 25%. Just so you know that is a difference of $600 a month for me. And instead of using a percent, I got her to agree on a set number. So that 14% is what I make now and won’t change. We locked in that number. Normally it’s 25% every year of what you make, so it will increase every year. That is my big dilemma. Let me know what you guys think now? Wouldn’t you guys be afraid?
Ok. Then wait until you sign.
I live in NY and child support is 25% of your gross income for 2 kids.
Is this for a 50/50 split in parenting time?
I assume your wife does not work.
My wife does work, but since they will be living with her most of the time that’s how it works here. I don’t want to get into it but there is a lot about how an50/50 split works.
Let me ask all you guys hear something when it comes to spirituality, mindset,, knowing yourself in your truth, and self-acceptance, for everything all your achievements all your accomplishments and all your mistakes and some of the things that you know you can change and some of the things that you think you can't for yourself. All the fears and all the positive reinforcements. This is what I think we all struggle with on a daily basis is fear. My wife has flip-flopped on things at least six times and I flip flop on wearing my wedding ring three or four times, even while hard for me to off and put away. When I put it back on the last few times, it would because of I believed in my vows to her the marriage and God, but then there were moments where I reacted to her, her words in her feelings, how she still wants to separate and doesn't believe this can be worked out.
Do you see what we have here people? We are a bunch of flip-floppers needing and seeking guidance and assurances that we are doing things right, rather than examining what's right for us. allowing someone else's opinion of us and our marriage to determine our self-worth and our truth.
Wolfman I'm a hypocrite, Some days I'm up and some days I'm down. Some days I'm fearful and some days I'm fearless. We are all just human. But Wolfman you need to take stock on whether this person is right for you right now. I know the past and the memories and the history does play a role in wanting to save the marriage, and I know that our thoughts of a future without them could scare you $hittless.
I just realized this today after IC. If you're not ready to make a decision whether you want to stay or leave, stand for the M or walk, then you don't have to make that decision today until you are ready. But when you do decide to make that decision one day go all-in or all-out, and stand on it. Stand on it regardless of what your wife says to you and which way she wants to go. I realize that I know it's difficult but flip-flopping get you hurt and get other people hurt. Hence being in limbo land. It becomes a game of who wants to get their feet wet first. They're putting their telling okay I'll put my cell when they're taking their till out okay I'll take my toe out. Make your decision for you and stand on it.
This is probably why everyone on here says " I need some time and space to think about that" when responding to the WAS
My wife does work, but since they will be living with her most of the time that’s how it works here. I don’t want to get into it but there is a lot about how an50/50 split works.
Fair enough.
where I was going with my last post Wolfman is confidence. Either you are your W's husband or you are not. By your own judgment and standards and beliefs. Everything you do, think, decide, feel, and act, do with confidence, for yourself, your family and your marriage, stop regretting past mistakes and learn from them and move on. I'm starting to realize that Satan wants us trapped in doubting ourselves in fear and that we can can't earn our way back to our self worth.
Don't let your wife determine your self-worth. And don't let your wife determine how you act around her. if she says something or ask you something and you aren't ready to make a decision on then state such. Trying to be confident and decisive in everything you do.
Something else I realized the reason why relationships start in the first place is because people are present in the hear and now, which creates intimacy. I've been stuck in my own head for so long with all my problems and self-esteem and mistakes, but I'm sure people can notice when I'm not present physiologically. I noticed it in my wife's birthday pictures the other day. I wasn't there and I wasn't present. Unawaringly I probably have been doing this with for years because of all the problems piling up in my life which ultimately led me to the demise of my marriage.
You don't have to reconcile today or tomorrow or at all. take the pressure off and just enjoy one day one moment one hour at a time with no expectations. If possible try to enjoy your wife's company if she's not being rebellious, one minute at a time
LH, R2C, IHCLACS thank you for your posts. IHCLACS your last post was amazing, really gets me thinking.
LH let me try to address your questions.
Originally Posted by Wolfman
1. Every night I go into the kids rooms and kiss them goodnight.
Well this is great that you are doing this now but do you think this will change her feeling towards you?
I think it will show I am trying, putting in effort and possibly.
Originally Posted by Wolfman
2. I don’t yell or scream when the kids misbehave.
What do you do now when this misbehave?
I give them a time out or take their electronics away.
Originally Posted by Wolfman
3. Make eye contact when she is speaking to me.
Again good, but again change her feelings?
It shows her I am more paying atttention and really care about her.
Originally Posted by Wolfman
4. Keep track of kids activities.
Give me some examples?
I put them in my phone now, so I know when the activities are and where.
Originally Posted by Wolfman
5. Don’t argue with her and take Her advice.
Oh so you are trying to placate her?
No her complaint was I NEVER listened to her and I am taking most of her advice not all of it.
Yesterday was a very crazy day. My d recently got in trouble with my w that everyday when she gets home I have to take her phone away. I’m home before my w and pick the kids up from school. So why d is real slick, when she gets off the phone she calls her grandparents (w parents) so I can’t take her phone away. So, I have a her few minutes to talk to them, then I told her she has to give me her phone. She refused, I said give me the phone that is long enough, she said no, so then I took the phone and told my w’s father that she is not allowed to have her phone you can call her on the house phone. Well my D threw a fit. Because of what’s going on between my w and I my d thinks she has to show my w she is on her side by being horrible and mean to me. That’s a whole other story. My D then called her grandparents and was saying how horrible I was to her then called my w how mean I was being to her. I had to go to my IC appointment and had a babysitter come over. So, I left and my d was saying for me to give her phone back before I left, I responded sorry that is your punishment and then left. While I was in the waiting room, my w called me and said what is the craziness going on at home. I said no craziness, I took her phone away like you instructed and she threw a fit that’s all. She said this is ridiculous how much my d despises me and doesn’t want to be around me. I told her she is trying to side with you because of our situation. My d has severe separation anxiety from my w. She is going to IC for it for years. My w said she can’t take this and this is one of the reasons why she doesn’t want to come home. After my IC she text me she wants me to come home to resolve this problem between my d and I. She wants to understand what my d problem is with me. When I get there I could see my w was in a very bad mood. I sit down on the couch and my w calls my d in the room. My w asked her what her problem was with me. She wouldn’t answer. My w asked her 4 times and then started to yell in her face what her problem was with me. My d then said for her to get out of her face. Then my w lost it. She started screaming, tried to flip the glass table, I caught it, I tried to calm her down but she lost it. When she flipped the table her cell phone fell on the floor she tried to stomp on it. I stopped her from doing that, then she went into the dining room and threw the dining room chair. She went into the kitchen and started to slam things around. Then she said I’m leaving and walked out of the house. Now my d was crying hysterically. I had to try and calm her down. When I finally calmed her down I was trying to talk with her. Side note: when I first met with my lawyer months ago she had advised me if my w were to ever “lose it” to record it. So now when I was talking to my d I took my phone out and started to voice record. In case my w came back. Sure enough in about 10 minutes she came back. I had my phone on the table and put it in my pocket. She saw me put the phone in my pocket. She said what are you recording this? I said no, she said let me see your phone. I said I started to record this because you are not acting rational. She “lost it” again, screaming how dare I, that is an invasion of privacy, she was going to call the cops on me. That she wanted to see my phone. I told her she couldn’t. This went back and forth about seeing my phone and what was I going to do with the recording. I told her it was to show her how she was acting. Honesty I was nervous about what she might do, that’s why I recorded it. I finally showed her that I deleted it. There is more to the story I’ll post again soon.
I am concerned for my w’s mental health. This is the second time in a week she has “lost it”. This d is really getting to her. She is going to end up at a psych ward. Maybe the vets can help me answer this question. To me it seems like she is having a really hard time with getting D, then why is she doing this? Again help me figure this out, why not work on the M?
Anyway back to last night. Around 7:30 I said the kids still haven’t had dinner. So I said I have to pick something up for dinner. I ran out picked up some food. When I got home I gave the kids their food and she said can I talk to you upstairs. So I said sure. She started off with what was I going to do with that recording. I said nothing it was to show you how irrational you were acting and because my d lies all the time when I have a conversation with her. She said she doesn’t believe me. I said was all, but again she asked why, why would I do that? Again I said to show her how irrational she was and because my d lies. I asked how many times do I have to explain that. I said I erased it I showed her my phone. Then she started with I never thought I would ever do this to her. I said what record her? She said that and that our life would be here. She says she doesn’t trust me anymore. I said I understand why you would feel that way. Then she started on R talk. That she can’t believe that we are here in our M. That how did I not know that things were bad? I said I am sorry I did t realize how bad things were. The. Again she changes her story about how she feels. She said when was the last time I walked out of the house. I said 4 years ago, she said back then is when she started to lose love for me. Side note: she has said to me she started to lose love months before our separation, the. It was a year, then 2 years, now we are up to 4 years. She said why do you think I had a panic attack a year ago? I said I thought it was work, the kids running around to all of their activities? She said no it was us? I told her back then I asked what she thought was the cause of it and she said she didn’t know. And she said yeah I didn’t know what was causing it. So, I responded if you didn’t know back then, how was I suppose to know it was us? She said I never tried to do anything to fix our situation? I said it never seemed like there was anything wrong. Again, she said how could I not tell, when she said she didn’t want to come home some days? I said I thought you said that because everyday we were running for our kids activities. She said no it was us. I asked what though, her response was when I was on the phone making business calls and when she would get home I didn’t say hello to her when she got home. I told her I was on the phone with clients. I’m also a real estate agent. I told her as soon as I got off the phone I came and said hello to her. She was like yeah 5 minutes later. I said you are right I should have come down the stairs while I was on the phone and said hello. I couldn’t help myself but I said not for nothing you blind sided me with a divorce. She said how did I not see it coming? I said I didn’t. If you would have sat me down and said look if we don’t fix xyz then I want a divorce don’t you think I would have fixed everything? Again she said how did I not know? I asked her did you k ow why you were so anxious all the time? She said no. I said then how was I suppose to know. Her response was I should just know. I said I know all the problems now and can fix everything and make this a great marriage. Her response was yeah now. I said right, now. She said I wanted those things before this. Again, I said if you didn’t know how was i suppose to know? She said I should have figured it out. Look I know my DB was not the best but I had to get some things off my chest. She said when she was hurting I did t help her. I told her I always asked what I could do to help. She said she wanted me to be her rock when she was suffering. I apologized for not being her rock when she was suffering. It was getting late, so we then put the kids to bed, went downstairs to eat. After we ate I gave her a hug and said sorry for everything and for not being her rock. There is a lot more conversation that happened I just can’t remember it all right now.
This is great material Wolfman. This illustrates exactly what we all seem to experience here. I actually just wrote something similar in my sich about such, how Men are "emotionally clueless" at "reading the signs and the minds" and women expect us "to just know" Men are logical creatures, and women are emotional ones, yet we both expect one another to relate to each other the way we would think, feel, act, ourselves. Perfect learning opportunity for relationships, if only it didn't come with the burden of seperation, divorce, resentment, shattered trust, and such. Also if only we could let go of the past trangressions, the fear of the uncertainty of the future, sit down in IC or a DB session, express our feelings and concerns without hostility, and find a solution. (FBT.)
Her flipping out to that magnitude is unacceptable behavior, it threatens the well being of the household and those around her, but yet understandable given her emotional stress. (see the compassion there.)
I struggle with that around the house when I'm emotionally frustrated. (I bang counter tops sometimes) even though I find a perfectly acceptable from the household that I was raised in, my wife finds is unacceptable especially as a behavior specialist because it threatens our well-being and safety and she finds it scary. I've actually gone into BPD DBT training and I'm in my third week but it's helped immensely with writing out my feelings and putting consequences actions thoughts an origin to them on paper, and in writing. It's kind of like trying to reframe your behavior under triggers. Sometimes it easy and sometimes hard to do, but teaches emotional regulation. Be that emotional Rock for your wife and your daughter set the example and teach them lovingly.
You also did right in recording that incident, for legal purposes, and then had a very good save and recovery on the explanation to the wife. Good job on validating too. May I suggest that you recommend to your wife, once she feels that anger boiling to put it on pause and go right out of feelings or go scream outside or something to temporarily release the anger and stress, until she can return to it examine it and understand what she needs to do to correct bad behavior. If she is open to it that is.
I'm sorry you have to experience all this turmoil but you're still doing a great job
If your W wanted those things before this boiling point, keep reminding her that the both of you are in the here and now, you are willing to address those things in the here and now, you are aware of those things in the hear and now, and you are willing to make good and try and change those things in the hear and now. If she responds "too little too late", validate her and say I'm sorry you feel that way" and that you think this is the perfect growing opportunity to learn, grow, and put past differences and resentments aside. Put the ball back in her court, and let her know that you are there if you ever want discuss it or address it in the future. Do all this without bringing up the marriage or the relationship or the status of it. (Think here and now with no pressure of status or proclamation.) That is being present my friend.
I am concerned for my w’s mental health. This is the second time in a week she has “lost it”. This d is really getting to her.
The D isn't getting to her. You are. Or at least, her perception of you right now. In her eyes you are the source of all her trouble. She feels like you've got a bad R with D as well, and that she has to intervene to try and smooth things over and that is making her very angry.
Maybe the vets can help me answer this question. To me it seems like she is having a really hard time with getting D, then why is she doing this? Again help me figure this out, why not work on the M?
We've been over this several times. It's frustrating having to explain the same things over and over again to you, things that are in DR and that we've also talked about here in your thread. I wonder if maybe this is a source of your W's frustrations as well, that she goes over things with you and you immediately forget and ask her about it again? Is this something she's mentioned? You might want to work on that, perhaps start getting creative with note-taking. As I've gotten older I've had to keep more notes/ reminders than I used to. But to quickly recap, while S and D may be difficult for her, in her eyes it is MUCH worse to stay with you. Leaving is the "lesser of two evils".
Here are my observations from that long exchange you had with your W. One is that you need to work on your R with your D. Get her into IC if you can afford it. Another is you want to avoid family meetings with W. Handle things through text or email. If she wants to have a meeting to discuss something then just tell her no, the last few have gone poorly and you are not going to let it happen again and all discussions need to be via text. Another is that you need to work on that listening and validating. You keep falling back into defending yourself which is a natural reaction, but one you've got to learn to resist. Lastly, quit lying to your W. I'm talking about the recording. You recorded it for your L, then lied to her what, like 4 or 5 times about it. Why? What's wrong with the truth? "I recorded it because my lawyer asked me to, he feels this is something that may have bearing in court." Put her on notice that you're not dealing with her BS, and if she chooses to treat you like that then you will record the moment to use later as you see fit. AND DON'T DELETE IT.
IHCLACS and AS thank you for your words of wisdom. IHCLACS I will use those words wisdom, “here and now.”.
AS you are right about me forgetting things. It is something I definitely have to work on. And yes that has been a complaint from my wife. Honestly, I should have a little notebook with me. I guess for me, I just struggle how she can think divorce will be better than working on the problems? Trust me I get what you are saying AS. Honestly, my lawyer way back when said to record her if she acted like that, but we are using a mediator now. So we aren’t even going to court. I was going seriously use it to show her how irrational she was acting. Lately she seems to forget the things she says to me and does. I had no intention of using the recording for anything but that. I know I could have done a better job validating. I just felt like how long can I continue to take this verbal abuse? There hasn’t been mention of Alpha male and for the past few months I have been anything but that. So I agree with validating I think it is a great tool to use and I like using because it does work. But I feel like I needed to stand up to her for certain things. Again I know that goes against DB. Trust me all I kept saying in my head was validate, validate, validate. I can see all of you saying it on here. Lol Thanks for keeping me on track. Sorry if I ask you to repeat things. Played football from 11-28. Player in little league, middle school, high school, college then semi pro. So my brain [censored]!! Definitely need to improve memory.
Venting: The thing that really bothers me about my w. Is that I can do a million things right, amazing, good for her but the one time I make a mistake, that’s what she focuses on. I feel like I am constantly under a microscope. We have been together 19 years gone on so many amazing trips, had a lot of party’s, a lot of great family experiences, a million laughs. Yet she will bring up the few mistakes I made. No cheating, abuse, drugs, alcohol or gambling. Mistakes like a misunderstanding, walking out of the house when we got in a heated argument, or not being loving every second of every day. Yet theses are the things she focuses on and continues to throw in my face. Her memory is perfect for mistakes but “doesn’t” remember all the good. It just drives me nuts. Still venting: my w said something last night that just shows how out of touch she is with reality. She said when she got married she thought everything was going to be perfect. That right there sets any person up for failure. With expectations like that there is nothing but let downs, work, kids, bills, family. Problems will come up, that’s life, but I guess when you expect everything to be “perfect” how does one handle imperfection? Maybe cry, scream, run, fight, steal, divorce n o matter the person the response will not be good, because they feel like they failed. They feel like they failed because they did not reach “perfection”. How does one find happiness in an imperfect world when all they expect in perfection? Again just venting. Thanks