Hello All,
I've been lurking for a while and have read the DR book, the materials linked in Cadet's welcome post, and a pretty large number of threads. So many people with wisdom born of pain. My situation is in some ways not as bad as some others I've seen, and in some ways more challenging. Sorry for the length. There's a lot I could say.
I'm 43, my wife 32, and our daughter 2. My wife and I are together nearly 10 years, married nearly 8. Our relationship was bliss in the early years. We rarely argued and, when we did, patched it up quickly. But since then we've had a lot of job stress, money stress, a lot of extended family stress. The year before our daughter was born we suffered a miscarriage. Since our daughter was born a lot has happened, not much of it good. Every couple of months, we'd have a pretty bad argument but would (or so I thought) more or less resolve it. Only in the past 7 months or so have things hit crisis level.
For the past several years I've been self-employed and things have been up and down. We live in one of the most expensive areas in the country so, even with a combined income in the six figures, we've been barely making it since having our child. Last summer a big project I was expecting to give us a boost disappeared at the last minute, meaning money would be tight for a while.
This coincided exactly with W starting a long-desired new job. She's a high school teacher and was teaching in a very difficult high school in the city for 6 years. Long hours, awful commute, totally draining. She came home and just wanted to veg on the couch. I like to get out and about so it was tough for me. Now she finally had a new job and I was very excited for her. Little did I know...
More details in next post...
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
September '18, first month on W's new job: W got home much earlier than in old job, but was hostile and barely looking at me. Avoided being in the same room. Something obviously was wrong. I tried to discuss it and she refused. Also refused counseling. Said she didn't feel like herself and hadn't for a while. Avoided any physical contact, saying she couldn't be affectionate or intimate if she didn't feel good about the relationship.
I asked what she needed to feel better in the relationship. She said she didn't think I was pulling my weight around the house or with our child. I had been under a lot of stress and thought she had a point. I started to 180 that right away and today I'm much better in those departments. Unfortunately my efforts may have just opened the cake shop. Me taking over our D's bedtime left W freer to go out.
She was on her phone nonstop. Last summer W had reconnected with an old work friend and suddenly, after being too tired to do anything social, wanted to go out in the city with that friend all the time. Friend has a long-term BF but he lives 2 hours away and they're on the rocks. BFF also is really into exercise. W was never heavy and lost pregnancy weight fast, but since then had put on about 25 pounds. She's always been curvy so it wasn't noticeable. But she changed her diet and exercised every day, at home or out with BFF, and lost the 25 pounds.
October '18: More of the same. Things were just starting to thaw when, one day, she started crying. She told me that lately she's been feeling sexually attracted to other women. This was new and I think it's a pretty complicated story how she got here.
I asked what it meant for us and she said she didn't know. I asked if she had feelings for anyone else and she said absolutely not, and that if we broke up in the end she wouldn't want a new relationship for a long time. Those statements were...not true.
Halloween my D brought me wife's phone, wanting to watch videos. On the screen were texts from BFF clearly indicating that W had a big crush on an unidentified woman, apparently a new colleague. W wanted advice on how to make that happen, BFF was more than happy to oblige. I was crushed.
November '18: Without revealing that I knew about fantasy/potential OW, I asked where we stood. She didn't want to discuss it (my wife can't handle emotional discussions and hates conflict). I did keep pushing and she finally said we should split. I was going to leave that night, at least for a few days. Unfortunately we're really short on money so I can't just get a nearby apartment. If I move out, I'm going to family several hours away.
She pulled back from the brink, told me to come back, said yes to counseling, which we started. I foolishly thought that she'd realized how serious this was and that was the end of OW. Wrong. One Friday she went out for a "quick drink" with coworkers that lasted 7 hours. I had lost all trust and, for the first time ever, snooped in her phone. It was devastating. She and BFF said horrible things about me and it was full speed ahead on trying to make OW happen. It appears nothing physical ever happened and it doesn't even appear to have gotten to the point of texting or reciprocal interest. Just my wife crushing hard on a coworker. (Close coworker. Bad idea.)
A couple of days later I confronted her. She cried a lot and was very chastened for a couple of days. Said she never would have done anything physical. Feeling insecure and having been deprived of affection and sex for months, I fell into pursuing. She said fixing the marriage was her top priority but it couldn't happen overnight or on my timeline. I read about pursuit/distance and realized that, for the first time ever, I was pursuing hard. Also came across DB. I decided to back off.
December '18: I backed off and things improved. She was more engaged with me, we started doing little things together. I brought in some decent income so we had breathing room. At Christmas we went for an overnight to see my family, which she previously said she didn't want to do (traffic, hard to travel with toddler, etc.). We had a great Christmas and I was thinking I was a fool to think we'd be divorcing. After our child went to sleep that night, I tried to kiss her. Big mistake. Despite my backing off, she said she still felt pressured and judged all the time. I didn't handle it well at all and it turned into a big fight.
New Year's Eve: She had invited her parents to our house. They (and she) are from far away and moved here only after our D was born. A big part of the story for another time. Then she told me we were going to their place. OK. Then, as we were heading out the door she got a text from BFF and she was thinking of going out with her in the city. You're kidding, right? She didn't change plans but sulked and ignored me for days.
January '19: She suddenly wanted to go out a lot more and would come home at 2 AM. With nobody to watch our D (W's mom takes her days but works evenings), I'd stay home. Never asked where she went or with whom, which didn't stop her from accusing me of smothering her with my nonexistent questions.
She spent her Christmas money on new clothes, my preppy W now looking like a punk rocker or a teenager. Leather pants, leopard-print tights, thigh-high boots, everything skin tight, lots of makeup.
The counseling was not working (we'd met the counselor together only the first visit, then my wife insisted on going separately). Counselor's opinion on our sitch changed with the breeze. I said I didn't want to go anymore.
W told me that I'd had a lot of life experiences before we got together and she felt she'd missed out. This had been a concern for me when we started out, one I discussed with her. At the time she said she wasn't the party type and only wanted me. Now, a decade later, she wants to party. I asked what particular experiences she felt she needed to have. She said she wanted to have sex with other women. Not what I wanted to hear.
I said we could break up and she could do whatever she wanted, or we could talk about her having permission to do that with some serious rules in place. This isn't what I want but I have a (female) friend who is bisexual and married to a man. They eventually settled on her being allowed to hook up with women if he gives the OK, no relationships, no coworkers, nobody they know, etc, etc., These things rarely work but it seems to for them. They're also very independent type people. My wife was very codependent and now wants to be totally independent. W said to forget the whole thing.
Late Jan, I thought she was inviting me to initiate sexual contact. Very, very wrong. She gave me the same story. Feels pressured, judged, not feeling good about the relationship, has to work out her own stuff first. Again, I'm sorry to say I reacted poorly. I have a pretty high libido, she's looking great these days, and this is really getting to me. I said it feels like we're not even married, like we're roommates who share the same bed only because we don't have an extra bedroom. She took off her wedding ring, said she didn't want to work on the relationship anymore because she was tired of me saying she wasn't trying. It hasn't gone back on since.
February '19: Little interaction, a lot of tension, W going out a lot. Valentine's Day a non-event. W went out of country for a week on a school trip. Her birthday fell that week. I was frankly relieved to have her away and had a good week. D and I did great. W skyped a couple of times and D wasn't interested at all.
She returned and more of the same. Even more texting. D brought me the phone one day and I found out W changed her passcode, changed settings so none of msg shows on screen, had contacts identified only by icons or initials. One set of initials coming up all the time. Changed FB settings so I couldn't see her friend list. Friends told me she was posting a lot of stuff on FB that they could see, but I couldn't. W started going out dancing even more and practicing Latin dance steps in the kitchen while making dinner. Civil to me but nothing substantive.
March '19: We actually had a decent discussion (she said she's wanted to but has been afraid to talk b/c fear of conflict). I've been avoiding R discussions per DB and b/c she's always hated them. She said we've been through a lot, she's been unhappy, she was worried too much about making me happy but she can't do that alone. She lost track of who she was, had no independent identity beyond wife, mother, teacher, daughter, sister. She needed space to do the things that bring her joy and have independent friendships. I said I didn't have a problem with any of that, but she could spend time with me too. I didn't appreciate being totally dropped and treated like crap. I didn't like the sexless marriage or not knowing if our D's family will be intact or not. Things improved for a few days, she started doing some small things with me.
I figured out, almost by accident, who her new texting (and dancing) friend is. Another teacher in her school, different department. Basically her age. Female, gay. I matched person to initials. W responded yes to a dance event on FB and so did this woman, who has same FB profile pic as my W: them and, ironically, W's OW1, in a national park during the school trip abroad. W has never once mentioned this person to me except one brief mention "my friend I go dancing with." Reminds me of fall when she'd talk about all her new colleagues except OW1.
This already has gone way beyond OW1. OW1 was 45, recently divorced from a guy, had two kids who attend the school where they teach, had a relationship going, and never had any interest in my W. This possible OW2 is my wife's age, texts W nonstop, and they go out 2-3x a week. W stays longer at work now, I guess to hang with possible OW2. The same-sex aspect makes it tricky. It's possible they're just good new friends but there's every reason to believe it's at least an EA, if not a full PA.
So here we stand. Neither of us have brought up this woman's existence but I'm lonely, sexless, suspicious, and just plain tired of this. Never been in a situation like this before and in the past would have broken up long ago. But I married her, I love her very much, and I don't want to be apart from my child. This whole time she has never mentioned divorce or anyone moving out, except when I have been upset and forced a discussion. Which I don't do anymore. She seemingly has been doing a much better job of GAL and detaching. It doesn't come naturally to me at all.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Thanks, Cadet. Got it.
I actually keep the books in my friend's garage next door. I go in there all the time to borrow tools, etc. W never goes in there. It works pretty well!
Niall, welcome to the forums! You've got a pretty typical WAS on your hands, and it sounds like WW (wayward wife) as opposed to WAW. Honestly the details (being interested in women and such) don't really make much of a difference, a wayward is a wayward is a wayward. Pay special attention to Sandi's posts because she really digs into the whole wayward craziness and what to do and not do as the LBH of a wayward.
One thing I will tell you is it is not going to get better for a long, long time and will probably get much worse. Your marriage is not even on life support, it's on a marble slab with a toe tag. It's dead and gone. That doesn't mean you don't have a future R and M with her, that could very well happen. But you really need to understand that you can't "save" what you had, she's way too far gone for that. She's got to go off and explore all these "urges" and craziness she thinks she "needs" and she'll probably never be able to do it while under the same roof as you. So prepare yourself for her to leave because the chances are very good that she will.
Focus on yourself and your D. Protect yourself from her insanity. DO NOT PLAY INTO IT. No more trying to negotiate with her (such as offering to let her explore having sex with women) it's just making you look weak, pathetic and unattractive. You've got to regain control of your life and quit putting up with her crap. She has ZERO respect for you right now, and you've got to get your respect back not just to possibly attract her back again in the future but to make yourself feel better about YOU.
Good luck and keep posting!
Thanks AS. Pretty sobering.
By early July or so we'll have to indicate if we're renewing our lease or moving out, so I'm imagining unless things are better by then she'll say she thinks we should move on separately. I'm hoping to be in a better position to get my own space locally if that comes to pass, so I can be around my D.
I've been trying to follow Sandi's rules for a while. Some of them I'm doing great, others not so much. I'm really hurt by this and have a lot of external stress at the moment as well, so appearing happy isn't always easy. I've done some really good 180s in some areas, lost weight. Trying to GAL but limited extra funds, work responsibilities, and a 2-year-old that somebody's got to take care of make it more challenging. Detaching is coming very, very slowly. I think it would be easier if we didn't have a young child.
Just trying to come to terms with what's happened. Like most people here I never believed my W could be the kind of person she's being now. I believe in open communication and trying to meet the other person. She's not in that space at all right now and all of this is very counterintuitive for me. Have to control emotions better.
Oh, and don't worry, I have no intention of discussing letting her have sex with women again. From an ethical standpoint I think an affair is equally problematic whether man or woman. I read a lot in October about women, more than men, having sexual orientation that can evolve over time, and I had some sympathy for her wrestling with that.
But I've thought a lot more about it and it's not something I'm comfortable with. If I learn that she's done anything physical with OW2, I'll be done. Honestly the EA is bad enough. If not for my D I'd be ready to file by now.
I asked what it meant for us and she said she didn't know. I asked if she had feelings for anyone else and she said absolutely not, and that if we broke up in the end she wouldn't want a new relationship for a long time. Those statements were...not true.
This is never true. This is a way of letting the LBS down easy. My WW did said the same thing. Even though she had been in an EA for weeks where she specifically had discussed "relationship" with the OM. "Oh but I never want to get married again." Believe NOTHING THEY SAY. NOTHING.
This already has gone way beyond OW1. OW1 was 45, recently divorced from a guy, had two kids who attend the school where they teach, had a relationship going, and never had any interest in my W. This possible OW2 is my wife's age, texts W nonstop, and they go out 2-3x a week. W stays longer at work now, I guess to hang with possible OW2. The same-sex aspect makes it tricky. It's possible they're just good new friends but there's every reason to believe it's at least an EA, if not a full PA.
So here we stand. Neither of us have brought up this woman's existence but I'm lonely, sexless, suspicious, and just plain tired of this. Never been in a situation like this before and in the past would have broken up long ago. But I married her, I love her very much, and I don't want to be apart from my child. This whole time she has never mentioned divorce or anyone moving out, except when I have been upset and forced a discussion. Which I don't do anymore. She seemingly has been doing a much better job of GAL and detaching. It doesn't come naturally to me at all.
Not going to lie, this is a tough one. Nial, it isn't like you have to compete with an OM. That is actually easier to do. But you can't compete with an OW. You just don't have the right anatomy for that. This is a journey that your W has to
complete on her own. I won't get into morality since not everyone agrees on that, but if she decides that this is her path (lesbianism) then you have to make a decision for yourself. Personally I could not live in the situation you mentioned of the guy that allows his W to sleep with other women. Everyone is different, but that would not be something I could tolerate. "Forsaking all others" to me means men, women, and everything in between.
Nial I see a lot of focus on her. And it also doesn't appear to be working for you. You said GAL and detachment is not something that comes naturally to you. Guess what, it doesn't come naturally to ANYONE. Oh sure, if you weren't sure you wanted to be married anymore, and were questioning your own sexuality, then maybe it would....like it is for her. But you aren't going through what she is. For most of us GAL and detachment is HARD. And it is impossible, or darned near, when you are so focused on her.
ANd you keep mentioning lack of sex and high libido. Duh, you are a guy. We all have high libidos. And we all had to go sexless through our sitches. It will not kill you. So focus on what you can control. YOU. GO GAL. Like a madman. WOrk on detaching. (By the way, she isn't detaching...she is checking out of the marriage. Not the same thing at all.)
Hope for the best...but prepare for the worst Nial. We are here for you no matter how this turns out.
I asked what it meant for us and she said she didn't know. I asked if she had feelings for anyone else and she said absolutely not, and that if we broke up in the end she wouldn't want a new relationship for a long time. Those statements were...not true.
This is never true. This is a way of letting the LBS down easy. My WW did said the same thing. Even though she had been in an EA for weeks where she specifically had discussed "relationship" with the OM. "Oh but I never want to get married again." Believe NOTHING THEY SAY. NOTHING.
Thanks Steve. Lesson learned the hard way.
Not going to lie, this is a tough one. Nial, it isn't like you have to compete with an OM. That is actually easier to do. But you can't compete with an OW. You just don't have the right anatomy for that. This is a journey that your W has to
complete on her own. I won't get into morality since not everyone agrees on that, but if she decides that this is her path (lesbianism) then you have to make a decision for yourself. Personally I could not live in the situation you mentioned of the guy that allows his W to sleep with other women. Everyone is different, but that would not be something I could tolerate. "Forsaking all others" to me means men, women, and everything in between.
Nial I see a lot of focus on her. And it also doesn't appear to be working for you. You said GAL and detachment is not something that comes naturally to you. Guess what, it doesn't come naturally to ANYONE. Oh sure, if you weren't sure you wanted to be married anymore, and were questioning your own sexuality, then maybe it would....like it is for her. But you aren't going through what she is. For most of us GAL and detachment is HARD. And it is impossible, or darned near, when you are so focused on her.
ANd you keep mentioning lack of sex and high libido. Duh, you are a guy. We all have high libidos. And we all had to go sexless through our sitches. It will not kill you. So focus on what you can control. YOU. GO GAL. Like a madman. WOrk on detaching. (By the way, she isn't detaching...she is checking out of the marriage. Not the same thing at all.)
Hope for the best...but prepare for the worst Nial. We are here for you no matter how this turns out.
Agree it's tougher to compete with OW. W has been declaring independence in a pretty hostile way and, to her, having the freedom to explore this is part of that. We have gay friends and even relatives. I have no problem with someone being LGBT. It is difficult when your wife, after 10 years together, has a sudden revelation once we have a child.
My friend for several years took your position. She said it didn't matter what she was attracted to because she made a vow to her H. She liked her men a little more muscular than he is, but it wouldn't be right to sleep around for that. And being attracted to women as well was no different. At some point they had a discussion and their little arrangement came out of it. I don't judge it but I don't think, emotionally, I could do it.
My frustration over lack of sex actually has gotten much worse since this started. Since D was born our sex life hadn't been what it was, but that's pretty normal. I wasn't thrilled but wasn't super-upset either. When we were discussing in the fall what wasn't working, this was one of the things on my mind. Since then my frustration level is through the roof and all of our biggest recent conflicts have come out of that.
GAL, in some ways, really appeals. A chance for reconnecting with old hobbies and friends, discovering new ones. But I've struggled to clear my head of all my worries, which is why I need to do GAL in the first place. Trying not to spend $, but the weather is improving here and I'm looking forward to outdoor activities.
You are right that there's too much focus on her and that it's not working for me. I've thought that it would be easier if I didn't have to see her every day and share a bed (my best week was when she was gone), but I've decided I'm not leaving my D until I have to. Suffering through this and trying to make it better for me short of leaving.
Can you explain a bit more the difference between detaching and checking out of the marriage?
Sorry that you are dealing with this. It hurts. You have a WW on your hands. This is a very difficult situation to desl with. If you want to try and stick around and make it work, follow DB to a T. Its time to focus on yourself. Your M is over and is just a piece of paper.
Use this gift of time to be the best version of yourself that you can be. Time to be superdad and stay that way. There is a huge chance you may end up D, and if you truly dont want that then stop pushing and pursuing. My WW acted the exact same way. Only she full embraced her NPD, started a PA with her boss whos 20 years older and showed zero remorse.
We just filed for D on Monday. I have accepted my M is completely over. However I have also accepted that I deserve so much better.
We all deserve a spouse that holds true to their vows. We all deserve love and happiness. Just know, that there are nillions of other women out there and that there is one who would treat you like an absolute king like you deserve.
Good luck. Keep posting. Get together a short term goal list for how you want to improve your life and make yourself happy. Stop making decisions based on how it affects your M and WW. Everything you do moving forward is for you and your child.
You're going to have to remove all pressure, stop all pursuit for a long time. I've been doing this over a year, and it's funny how my perspective has changed. My wife told my ILY the other day for the first time in over a year. I was yearning for that for a long time, but in time, with work and changing the way I think and behave, it didn't matter so much anymore. It's going to take your W longer than it should to feel the lack of pressure and it's on you to respect her choice to split and follow through on your end by not trying to change her mind. So, quit pursuing her. This may be hard to hear right now, but at the moment she doesn't want you.
Your W is wayward. Read the WW sitches. They are all very similar. R2C will probably be along with some awesome links that you'll want to read and reread. I'm guessing your big city counselor is advising your wife to throw her morality to the wind, be free, and hohoho it all around town as a way to find her happiness. Don't worry about it. You can't control it. But interview a counselor in the future before hiring and find a fit. I wouldn't spend hundreds of dollars just to find out this counselor is a no-go.
Quit monitoring her, you already know she is cheating. You don't need to know any more. You're going to alone in your marriage for a while, if not forever. You can't control it, so don't worry about it. That's why you go GAL. Make your life a great one.
My W was detaching from me a year ago, only to come running back a million times when I finally started detaching. Good luck, keep posting.
she'll say she thinks we should move on separately.
Why give her all the power.
180 this. "This is not working FOR ME. "
ST, I'm so sorry for all you have gone through and for the filing. I've read some of your story along with many others in recent weeks.
I will try -- harder -- to follow your sage advice. I think I had some nice guy syndrome for a long time. In the beginning I was successful professionally and more experienced in the world, she was young, unemployed, in an new place, language barrier, etc. I just got used to having to help her with certain things and it's been a hard habit to break.
I went from OK-dad to Superdad over this time. Everyone, including W, has noticed. I still have stuff I need to work on.
I stopped directly pursuing for the most part four months ago. Twice since I thought, wrongly, that she was giving me an opening and it turned out badly. But either her projection or my poor poker face has led her to say that she knows I'm not happy with her late-night activities. Honestly I've been encouraging her to have some fun with friends for years and, until starting her current job, she had little interest or energy. I'm of course not happy with late-night activities coming in the context of infidelity and checking out on our relationship.
Sept - Nov all I wanted to do was discuss the R. I was willing to face what I did to get us to this point. Turns out she's decided she's earned the right to do whatever she likes and has no interest in looking at how her own behavior is wrong. So these days I almost never text her or initiate conversations at all, let alone R talks. I don't ask her to do anything with me and I don't ask her where she's going, etc., although she still accuses of me of it.
Twice since I thought, wrongly, that she was giving me an opening and it turned out badly.
Temp checks, as well call them here. You solidified yourself as a backup plan. Your goal should be to never make that mistake again.
But either her projection or my poor poker face has led her to say that she knows I'm not happy with her late-night activities.
No, it's the fact that she is married and knows this is horribly wrong to be doing what she's doing.
I was willing to face what I did to get us to this point.
And she was willing to use that against you and blame you for what she is doing now. You've made your apologies, leave them where they are.
Ovr, thanks for your insights. From my POV I have stopped pursuing but she does still feel the pressure despite that.
If I've had some NGS, she also always used to be overly tuned into people's feelings and I think, on some level, she feels some guilt over all this while telling herself she deserves to be selfish for a while. So she goes out, I ask no questions and say nothing, but she's still inventing a narrative where I'm smothering her. I'm not quite sure what to do about it, other than try to do better at not seeming upset about any of this. That's been a real struggle. Fake it until I make it, I guess.
I haven't been snooping although it's my natural inclination now. I never was suspicious before learning about OW1. When I saw OW2 had same profile pic as my W, I did click on it to see who the h*** she was. Not quite at the point where I completely don't care who she's out with.
You're actually wrong about the counselor. The counselor was very anti-divorce and found my W's attitude extremely troubling, esp. with a small child involved. First (and only) joint session she asked us point blank if we'd commit to a real effort and swear off other people while we worked on this. Wife said yes then, I learned the one time I looked in her phone, immediately afterward texted BFF to make fun of me and ask how to get OW1 alone.
My issue with the counselor is that she wasn't proactive at all and her view on whether we had a chance changed each week based on what she heard. I wanted the counselor to provide a little more stable perspective, the emotional rollercoaster was already operational without the counselor steering it.
R2C, it's true that it is not working for me. A couple of times I have thought about just leaving but have decided, for now, to stay for my daughter. There are complications that make it hard for me to leave without moving several hours away. Every now and then I reevaluate that choice. For me personally, distance would make it much easier.
Checking out of the marriage is not being present in the marriage even when together. That isn't detachment. Really detachment is getting to a place where her words and deeds no longer affect you emotionally. She could tell you she had a gangbang with 100 people the night before, and it would be like water off a duck's back to you.
I would consider asking her to leave the MBR. We recommend LBHs with a cheating W kick their W out of the MBR. I am guessing based on her behavior, she has cheated with this OW.
Twice since I thought, wrongly, that she was giving me an opening and it turned out badly.
Temp checks, as well call them here. You solidified yourself as a backup plan. Your goal should be to never make that mistake again.
But either her projection or my poor poker face has led her to say that she knows I'm not happy with her late-night activities.
No, it's the fact that she is married and knows this is horribly wrong to be doing what she's doing.
I was willing to face what I did to get us to this point.
And she was willing to use that against you and blame you for what she is doing now. You've made your apologies, leave them where they are.
Agreed on all counts. No apologies anymore. I said it all back then.
Once during this whole saga she went to our friends next door (they're much more my friends, which is another story) and talked a lot about the whole thing. They'd heard a little from my end. My friend didn't want to discuss it but did say she's a lot more torn up than she looks and vacillates between feeling guilty and telling herself she suffered enough and has earned the right to behave this way. Once, two weeks ago, she flat out apologized to me for being such a b**** to me for so long. I didn't respond.
My ring is now off as well. No initiating time together, touch, sex, even conversation. I let her come to me. She does come home and tell me funny stuff on the internet or about her day at times. I listen and try to be pleasant but not overly enthusiastic.
Checking out of the marriage is not being present in the marriage even when together. That isn't detachment. Really detachment is getting to a place where her words and deeds no longer affect you emotionally. She could tell you she had a gangbang with 100 people the night before, and it would be like water off a duck's back to you.
I'm definitely not detached yet, but I knew that. Her phone going off all day still sets me off, though I try not to show it. Probably not doing as effective a job of that as I'd like. I am getting more resigned to the idea that I can't control what she's going to do or make her stop any of this.
I understand the premise that, as a LBS, you have to make yourself stronger and more self-reliant, and that doing that might draw WS back to you or it may not, but it's important for you to do regardless. Getting to a point that you don't care if your wife has a gangbang with 100 seems like a really unhealthy place to be in a marriage. You just said you wouldn't able to stand your wife hooking up with even one other woman, so it really shows how different detachment and DB is from how people would feel in a healthier marriage. It's like she can't check back in until I've just about checked out myself.
I would consider asking her to leave the MBR. We recommend LBHs with a cheating W kick their W out of the MBR. I am guessing based on her behavior, she has cheated with this OW.
I have seen that advice. I too suspect she has done something with this OW but I have no evidence for it beyond the circumstantial. Once, totally unprompted by me, she said that she hadn't had sexual contact with anyone else. That could well be false, but without any proof I hesitate to proceed on the basis that it has happened/is happening. Not sure how to reconcile making that accusation, or even trying to find proof, with the idea of not obsessing over her and what she's doing.
Our place is small, we don't have an extra bedroom, but that's surmountable.
Read up on temperature checks. Those are not openings. Thats your WW checking if you are still plan B. If you react to every temp check you will just hurt yourself badly. My WW was temp checking as early as two weeks ago. Crying and saying shes sorry, telling me I dont have to move out and we can live together after D.
I didnt react. You want to see consistent actions over a very long period of time that show your WW is invested in you, has addressed her underlying issues and is ready to reconcile. Words are just words. They mean nothing without action. Same goes for trying to verbally convince yiur WW shes wrong and that you have changed. Its just words and lursuit so they will pull away that much faster.
You got this. No matter what happens, as long as you take care of yourself, you will be fine, with or without your WW. I am looking forward to my new life where I am in full control and where I can do whatever I want to make myself happy.
I understand the premise that, as a LBS, you have to make yourself stronger and more self-reliant, and that doing that might draw WS back to you or it may not, but it's important for you to do regardless. Getting to a point that you don't care if your wife has a gangbang with 100 seems like a really unhealthy place to be in a marriage. You just said you wouldn't able to stand your wife hooking up with even one other woman, so it really shows how different detachment and DB is from how people would feel in a healthier marriage. It's like she can't check back in until I've just about checked out myself.
Yes, being detached is difficult, no one here would deny that. Notice, I said that finding this out would have no effect on you emotionally. It doesn't mean you don't care. This is why getting a good understanding of detachment is so important.
Let's play a game. Let's put the hypothetical into better perspective:
S85's WW: "Can we talk, I have something I need to tell you?"
S85: "OK."
S85's WW: "Last night I went to a hotel and had a gangbang with 100 other people."
S85: "I see."
S85'2 WW: "I just thought you should know."
S85: "Thank you for your honesty. Obviously this is not something I can tolerate. I will expect you to be moved out of the MBR by time I am ready to go to bed tonight."
S85's WW: "So you are done with me?"
S85: "I am not ready to answer that right now. This is a lot to process and I need some time to sort out how I feel about this. However, I cannot share my bed with you because you have violated the marriage."
S85's WW: "But I don't want to move out of the MBR, can't we discuss this further."
S85: "I understand how this is upsetting, but this is a necessary step until we can decide how to proceed."
S85's WW: "I KNEW YOU'D OVER REACT TO THIS! IT IS ALL YOUR FAULT ANYWAY! I HATE YOU!"
S85: "I can understand how this could make you feel that way."
S85's WW: "BLANK YOU! I AM SO DONE WITH THIS MARRIAGE! I WANT A DIVORCE!"
S85: "So I am hearing that you feel that this is not salvageable. I can understand that. I am not sure how I feel about it though and need more time to process everything."
S85's WW: "BLANK YOU!" And storms off......
Notice, I didn't "not care", but I also didn't flip out, fly off the handle, yell, scream, cry, beg. I was emotionally cool as a cucumber. I listend and validated. I did not sway from my insistence that she move out of the MBR, and I did not condemn nor excuse her behavior. I didn't agree nor disagree with her. I was emotionally level. That is detachment.
AGAIN, FOR CLARITY, THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL DISCUSSION TO SHOW Nial WHAT IT MEANS TO BE DETACHED! THIS DID NOT ACTUALLY OCCUR!
R2C, it's true that it is not working for me. A couple of times I have thought about just leaving but have decided, for now, to stay for my daughter.
You don't leave. You form boundaries around you and D.
Here is one of my boundaries:
"When you ask for help in saving your marriage and continually ignore my advice, I feel disrespected. If you continue to ask for advise and ignore my suggestions, I will stop posting to you"
See how it is about how I respond to your behavior? This is what you need to do with W.
You can start little or start big. You choice.
Right now, this is your weak boundary.
"When you do things that are disrespectful to me and our relationship, I ignore your behavior and act happy"
Only you can figure out your boundaries. We can help by sharing ours.
ST: I did read some more on temperature checks vs. the much more substantial changes needed before R is possible.
Steve: Very good illustration. I'm getting better at doing this on the outside and with my words. Not getting emotional on the inside or being affected after the fact is a work in progress.
R2C: Gotcha. I'm working on it.
Appreciate everyone's help and advice very much. People here know what they're talking about for having lived it.
About 5 years ago we met another couple who lived about 10 minutes away. They invited us over a few times and we became friends. Myself more than my W. 4 years ago they ended up moving right next door. Since then I've become very close friends with both of them but my W, who was pretty antisocial until this early-onset MLC or whatever it is, never did.
Yesterday the guy asked me to come over and watch our local baseball team's first game with him. I used to be a huge baseball fan, watched or listened to most games, went to the ballpark 10-15 times a season, occasional out-of-town trip to see my team on the road. The past few years life has given me more important things to deal with, and W is not so big a fan, so I watch much less. But I always like to watch on Opening Day. It's like a rite of passage for me, the true beginning of spring and the gateway to endless summer nights. So I said yes.
Until about 6 months ago, my W had to handle our D2's bedtime routine every night because, if anyone else tried, D2 would yell for Mommy. We instituted a new routine last fall and W and I would read/play with her, all of us together, for an hour before bedtime. Then I would handle the actual bedtime. D2 has never been a good or willing sleeper so I'd have to march her back to bed multiple times.
Now I do the entire bedtime routine, reading time and sleep time, about 90% of the time. W is on her phone, working out, in the shower, whatever. W does it only if I have a commitment out, and generally has to deal with D asking for me the whole time. Last evening, approximately the following conversation:
Me: I'm going next door now. Thanks for handling bedtime.
W: Sure, you do it all the time.
Me: Right, I do it all the time. So when I don't do it, it's outside the norm. So thanks.
W: I want you to feel free to go do things and have fun. And I want to go out and have fun too without feeling guilty.
Me: You should do whatever you think is best.
W: OK. But you should be free to have fun too.
Me: I appreciate that. For me it's about finding the right balance between doing things outside the house that I enjoy and meeting my responsibilities to D2.
W: I'm sorry this isn't going the way you want.
Me: I'm also sorry for the choices you are making.
She started to say something but didn't. I left.
So here's my question. W at the moment feels like going out 3-4 times a week, mostly these days with possible OW2. I have friends and things I'd like to do, I'm trying to GAL, but if I'm going out a couple of times a week myself it just feels a little like tit-for-tat. It also feels like my D2 is caught in the middle as both parents go about staking their claim to nights out. I suppose that, if there is a D, my D2 will mostly be with only one parent at a time. This still feels kind of wrong. How have people dealt with that?
I haven't had to deal with it. However, why can't it be both? D2 has to be going to bed at what? 8pm? Go out after. If she is going out, she could go out after too, though you can't control that.
So do bedtime routine, then go out. On nights your plans legitimately interrupt that, then have W do those nights. You aren't doing anything wrong by going out and GAL. And look at this way, kind of like road construction, "short-term inconvenience leads to long-term relief". If you do this well, and are able to save your MR, that will be a huge bonus to D2.
I do need to 2x4 you on your last statement to her. You did pretty well, though I would encourage you to do more listening and validating, until that last statement:
"I'm also sorry for the choices you are making."
That was dripping with judgment and accusation.
Her:"I'm sorry this isn't going the way you want."
You:"Thank you for that. Life doesn't always go the way we want, but there are better days ahead."
or "Thank you for that. I can understand how all of this must make you feel."
I haven't had to deal with it. However, why can't it be both? D2 has to be going to bed at what? 8pm? Go out after. If she is going out, she could go out after too, though you can't control that.
So do bedtime routine, then go out. On nights your plans legitimately interrupt that, then have W do those nights. You aren't doing anything wrong by going out and GAL. And look at this way, kind of like road construction, "short-term inconvenience leads to long-term relief". If you do this well, and are able to save your MR, that will be a huge bonus to D2.
I've done that a lot, especially when going to my friends next door. For a long time she was totally asleep between 8 and 8:30. Since W returned from her week away last month, D2 has been much harder to get to sleep and it's been more like 9:30 or 10. During the week away D2 barely noticed W was gone, but since W returned she's been very clingy. Changing naptimes, starting the process earlier, nothing has helped much.
I think, when I'm more honest with myself, that I still find it sad that W and I get out of the house only separately. I think we were overdue for some separate friends and nights out. Especially W. Without using, or even knowing, the term, W had some difficulty with self-differentiation in our M. Having a child made that even worse. Even less time to be an individual.
But W hit this point where she has to go from 100% about me and MR to 0%, which I consider even more unhealthy. Too bad she can't be comfortable with something in the middle. I'm giving up on thinking I can control that.
I do need to 2x4 you on your last statement to her. You did pretty well, though I would encourage you to do more listening and validating, until that last statement:
"I'm also sorry for the choices you are making."
That was dripping with judgment and accusation.
Her:"I'm sorry this isn't going the way you want."
You:"Thank you for that. Life doesn't always go the way we want, but there are better days ahead."
or "Thank you for that. I can understand how all of this must make you feel."
Thanks for the much-needed 2x4. Staying quiet and validating is a skill I'm learning and not quite there yet. I'm pretty angry these days and I do feel that, although I played my part in getting us to this point, it's been her choice alone to take it in this direction. I try to remind myself that expressing how I feel about it is not the most important thing. Things still slip out.
"This is not working for me. I have drawn up a parenting schedule."
Me: I'm going next door now. Thanks for handling bedtime.
W: Sure, you do it all the time.
Me: Right, I do it all the time. So when I don't do it, it's outside the norm. So thanks.
W: I want you to feel free to go do things and have fun. And I want to go out and have fun too without feeling guilty.
Me: You should do whatever you think is best.
W: OK. But you should be free to have fun too.
Me: I appreciate that. For me it's about finding the right balance between doing things outside the house that I enjoy and meeting my responsibilities to D2.
This is just WW garbage. What she said is really: "I want you to find another person so that I can feel good about the other person I'm cheating on you with."
Plenty of people find ways to have fun and still honor their marriage vows. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
"This is not working for me. I have drawn up a parenting schedule."
Yeah, I think that's the next step. I've been hesitant to do it because maybe it feels too much like divorce.
A few years ago W and I were both active in the community, then she dropped out of a lot of that stuff. I would have 1 or 2 meetings a week in the evenings. She never wanted to go out anywhere. Just drained from her former job and would watch TV at home.
These days I'm going to fewer meetings and she's going out a lot more. I'd guess the ratio of her nights out to mine is like 4 to 1 now. I think that needs to change.
This is just WW garbage. What she said is really: "I want you to find another person so that I can feel good about the other person I'm cheating on you with."
Plenty of people find ways to have fun and still honor their marriage vows. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
That's how I've taken it. She's said this a few times recently. I think she does feel guilty going out, both about me and about our D2, and thinks she'll feel less guilty if I'm doing it too.
Also: "I want to be happy. I want you to be happy too."
I do need to 2x4 you on your last statement to her. You did pretty well, though I would encourage you to do more listening and validating, until that last statement:
"I'm also sorry for the choices you are making."
That was dripping with judgment and accusation.
Her:"I'm sorry this isn't going the way you want."
You:"Thank you for that. Life doesn't always go the way we want, but there are better days ahead."
or "Thank you for that. I can understand how all of this must make you feel."
Steve, why even respond to that garbage? And if you do respond, why shield her from her own actions?
His W isn't actually sorry that things aren't going the way Niall wants them to go. She just feels bad about being an adulterer. I think no response or an honest response is better. But to thank her and say things will get better? I wouldn't. Then she just keeps the onus of her actions on Niall.
Niall, my W was whining and crying in MC one time and said "When you say that I left OM's bed and came and got in the MB with you it made me feel like a slut". Well, guess what? You should feel like a slut. That is a slutty thing to do! Not my fault.
I do need to 2x4 you on your last statement to her. You did pretty well, though I would encourage you to do more listening and validating, until that last statement:
"I'm also sorry for the choices you are making."
That was dripping with judgment and accusation.
Her:"I'm sorry this isn't going the way you want."
You:"Thank you for that. Life doesn't always go the way we want, but there are better days ahead."
or "Thank you for that. I can understand how all of this must make you feel."
Steve, why even respond to that garbage? And if you do respond, why shield her from her own actions?
His W isn't actually sorry that things aren't going the way Niall wants them to go. She just feels bad about being an adulterer. I think no response or an honest response is better. But to thank her and say things will get better? I wouldn't. Then she just keeps the onus of her actions on Niall.
Niall, my W was whining and crying in MC one time and said "When you say that I left OM's bed and came and got in the MB with you it made me feel like a slut". Well, guess what? You should feel like a slut. That is a slutty thing to do! Not my fault.
That's my instinct too and probably why I said what I said. But so much of this is about resisting those instincts and doing what's effective rather than what feels good. I think she should marinate in her guilt a bit but she won't be open to hearing that from me right now. Probably counterproductive. I probably should have said nothing or something like, "I'll be fine."
I do need to 2x4 you on your last statement to her. You did pretty well, though I would encourage you to do more listening and validating, until that last statement:
"I'm also sorry for the choices you are making."
That was dripping with judgment and accusation.
Her:"I'm sorry this isn't going the way you want."
You:"Thank you for that. Life doesn't always go the way we want, but there are better days ahead."
or "Thank you for that. I can understand how all of this must make you feel."
Steve, why even respond to that garbage? And if you do respond, why shield her from her own actions?
His W isn't actually sorry that things aren't going the way Niall wants them to go. She just feels bad about being an adulterer. I think no response or an honest response is better. But to thank her and say things will get better? I wouldn't. Then she just keeps the onus of her actions on Niall.
Niall, my W was whining and crying in MC one time and said "When you say that I left OM's bed and came and got in the MB with you it made me feel like a slut". Well, guess what? You should feel like a slut. That is a slutty thing to do! Not my fault.
Because things WILL get better. Notice I didn't say "there are better days ahead FOR US". Nial, trust me. When this is all said and done, no matter what happens with your marriage, you will be better for it. It is hard to realize that in the thick of our sitches, but look at the people that post here that have come through it. Some saved their marriages. Some did not. But we are all better, wiser, happier people today than we were before!
I do need to 2x4 you on your last statement to her. You did pretty well, though I would encourage you to do more listening and validating, until that last statement:
"I'm also sorry for the choices you are making."
That was dripping with judgment and accusation.
Her:"I'm sorry this isn't going the way you want."
You:"Thank you for that. Life doesn't always go the way we want, but there are better days ahead."
or "Thank you for that. I can understand how all of this must make you feel."
Steve, why even respond to that garbage? And if you do respond, why shield her from her own actions?
His W isn't actually sorry that things aren't going the way Niall wants them to go. She just feels bad about being an adulterer. I think no response or an honest response is better. But to thank her and say things will get better? I wouldn't. Then she just keeps the onus of her actions on Niall.
Niall, my W was whining and crying in MC one time and said "When you say that I left OM's bed and came and got in the MB with you it made me feel like a slut". Well, guess what? You should feel like a slut. That is a slutty thing to do! Not my fault.
That's my instinct too and probably why I said what I said. But so much of this is about resisting those instincts and doing what's effective rather than what feels good. I think she should marinate in her guilt a bit but she won't be open to hearing that from me right now. Probably counterproductive. I probably should have said nothing or something like, "I'll be fine."
Listen. Validate. No need to try to guilt or shame her. Trust me, she is feeling all of that already!
Quite the weekend in my world. Friday evening I had a function that has been on the calendar for months. The kind of thing that, five years ago, wife would have gone with me to. Three years ago, I would have had to make an excuse for her absence because she was NEVER feeling sociable. One or two years ago, she would have had the built-in excuse of being home with the baby.
She asked me what time I expected to be back. I said maybe 8:30 or 9. She said, "OK, then I'll handle bedtime." I got home around 8:45 and our D2 was running around the house, W chasing her. W says: "Thank God, you're here. She's just been asking for you the whole time." I took over bedtime duties and, within 15 minutes, W left the house without a word of notice and came home well after midnight.
Saturday the weather was halfway decent and W wanted to buy training wheels for D2's bike. We all went together and, as I was putting them on the bike, W announces that she's going to meet "a friend" for a movie. She leaves at 12:30 pm and comes back around 5. Throws together a quick dinner, then starts getting ready to go out yet again with no prior notice.
I said, "If you want to go out and do things that's fine, but we need to set up some kind of schedule and you can't keep expecting me to be here to watch D2 when you give me no notice that you're planning to go out.
She said her friend just texted her and she decided to go out. Highlights:
--"I'm sorry it's inconvenient for you that I have friends now."
--"I'm not going to feel guilty about having a life now."
--"I can go out where I want, when I want, with whom I want, until whatever time I want, and it's none of your f------ business and if you don't like it I don't f------ care."
She then totally reinvented history by suggesting:
(1) That I have been controlling for years and never let her go out with her friends. This is total nonsense. Even when she was in grad school (2011-13), I had to encourage her to accept invitations to go do things. Her instinct was to stay home every night. Once she started her previous job, she would come home and change to PJs at 5:30. She never wanted to do anything. I actually liked when she would go out from time to time. I could blast music I like but she doesn't.
(2) That I "prohibited" her from having her friends to our house. Everyone we know would laugh out loud at this. It's the total reverse of what happened. Multiple friends of mine refuse to come back to our house because she was so rude to them. Because she never wanted anyone coming over. The few times her friends have been over here, I suggested it almost every time and had to convince her.
I didn't engage on any of this stuff, other than to say that someone has to be home to take care of D2 and W shouldn't assume I'm always available for that. I think a schedule is appropriate.
Meanwhile, on Sunday afternoon D2 was crying and W went to comfort her. D2 pushed her away and asked for me. Later W asked D2 to say something about me. D2 said, "Daddy's funny." I asked her to say something about W. She said, "Mommy's sleeping! Mommy's doing exercise! Mommy's not here!"
Sure enough, at 7 pm last night W went out AGAIN with zero notice. Potential OW2 was sitting in a car in my driveway. W's been whining about being tired all the time, but came home at 1 am. She gets up at 6 for work. Tonight is the regularly scheduled dance class (8-9 pm, most weeks she rolls in around 1).
I'm being taken advantage of here and it's not going to last.
I'm being taken advantage of here and it's not going to last.
You are, without a doubt being taken advantage of, and that is for you to handle. Reason number one: She has absolutely not one grain of respect for you. So how do you think, you can regain some of that respect, that will make her treat you like a human being?
Validating and listening are two of the key skills, that you will learn to master in order to get communication going. However, if there is no respect, then no matter the amount of validation and listening, you will come up short, and she won't see you being worth a dime.
You need to sit down, and my suggestion would be a follow up on what you already told her: You guys have a joint responsibility for your daughter. You can understand that she has the right to have friends, to go out, to do whatever she wants to, and you totally get, that that is her privilige, and you have absolutely no intentions of staying in her way, AS LONG as she does on her own time. So, you need to get her to sit down, and make a schedule on paper, and if she won't, then you need to figure out what your next step is in order for you to make that plan a reality - what are your boundaries, and what are the consequences for breaking these?
Dont get pulled around by the hair, but be cordial, be respectful while you show her, that if she wants out, fine - however you are not going to pull the load so she can just go and come as she pleases. And get the fk out of the house when you have YOUR time. Go meet some friends, go dance, go join something social, cooking class, ball game, whatever, but go out, and realize your potential is great, and so many people in this world would love to get a chance to know you - however they can't, because right now, you are taking care of d2 like you were a widowed husband.
Be strong.
Niall,
Time is always a problem for LBSs. Your sitch has been going on since Sept. To you that feels like decades. In reality, 7 months is a drop in the bucket for most sitches. Why is time such an issue for LBSs? Because as a general rule our society has given up on the virtue that is patience. No one has it anymore. Spend 5 minutes driving on the road and you'll see the severe lack of patience in our society today.
Regardless, your W rewrote history to try to get you to back off. She wants to do what she wants to do when she wants to do it. I don't think she is purposely taking advantage of you...she simply doesn't care. Rather than think about it in terms of whether or not she takes advantage of you or not, look at it in terms of what is best for D2.
I think you are doing this, but keep D2 at the forefront of everything you do and everything you decide.
Also look up mtb's threads. I will look to see if I can find them. He had a particularly WW and he dealt with it pretty well. I think at some point, if this isn't working for you, then you will need to ask your W to leave. And when she does, make sure you change the locks. WWs that are especially wayward will forsake everything, including their kids.
First thing I would do if I were you is contact a lawyer. I think he would start having you document everything. Document when she leaves, when she comes home. How much time she is spending with D2. How much time she is spending away. The goal here is for you to get full custody if your W continues down this path.
Hang in there, but start to take actions that protect you and D2.
She said, "OK, then I'll handle bedtime." I got home around 8:45 and our D2 was running around the house, W chasing her. W says: "Thank God, you're here. She's just been asking for you the whole time." I took over bedtime duties and, within 15 minutes, W left the house without a word of notice and came home well after midnight.
Saturday the weather was halfway decent and W wanted to buy training wheels for D2's bike. We all went together and, as I was putting them on the bike, W announces that she's going to meet "a friend" for a movie. She leaves at 12:30 pm and comes back around 5. Throws together a quick dinner, then starts getting ready to go out yet again with no prior notice.
I said, "If you want to go out and do things that's fine, but we need to set up some kind of schedule and you can't keep expecting me to be here to watch D2 when you give me no notice that you're planning to go out.
She said her friend just texted her and she decided to go out. Highlights:
--"I'm sorry it's inconvenient for you that I have friends now."
--"I'm not going to feel guilty about having a life now."
--"I can go out where I want, when I want, with whom I want, until whatever time I want, and it's none of your f------ business and if you don't like it I don't f------ care."
Wow well she is certainly playing out the "girls gone wild" scenario. One thing I would suggest is you not let her speak to you that way again. Just tell her if she does you will leave the room or house, then if she continues, leave!
Second I would suggest you go ahead and put that schedule together and get her to agree to it. She is taking advantage of you big time, time to put a stop to that!
(1) That I have been controlling for years and never let her go out with her friends. This is total nonsense.
Yes, that's why we call it "rewriting" history. It has little or no basis in fact.
Niall, my W was whining and crying in MC one time and said "When you say that I left OM's bed and came and got in the MB with you it made me feel like a slut". Well, guess what? You should feel like a slut. That is a slutty thing to do! Not my fault.
Remember to validate- "I'm sorry your actions make you feel like a slut."
You need to sit down, and my suggestion would be a follow up on what you already told her: You guys have a joint responsibility for your daughter. You can understand that she has the right to have friends, to go out, to do whatever she wants to, and you totally get, that that is her privilige, and you have absolutely no intentions of staying in her way, AS LONG as she does on her own time. So, you need to get her to sit down, and make a schedule on paper, and if she won't, then you need to figure out what your next step is in order for you to make that plan a reality - what are your boundaries, and what are the consequences for breaking these?
Thanks so much for commenting. A schedule is definitely coming.
I don't know how to enforce her breaking that schedule other than leaving, which I don't intend to do just yet. Under the circumstances I understand it would be more appropriate for her to leave, but at the moment I wouldn't be able to afford to be here alone. Frankly she wouldn't be either but she'd come closer. Her pay is regular. I'm self-employed and it's been a lousy couple of years and income has been erratic. Some months pretty good, some very lean. One of the biggest changes I need to make is to get back to a regular paycheck so I have more options and leverage.
Niall,
Time is always a problem for LBSs. Your sitch has been going on since Sept. To you that feels like decades. In reality, 7 months is a drop in the bucket for most sitches. Why is time such an issue for LBSs? Because as a general rule our society has given up on the virtue that is patience. No one has it anymore. Spend 5 minutes driving on the road and you'll see the severe lack of patience in our society today.
You're right that it does feel like decades. I probably am not the most patient person but the constant feeling of rejection and disrespect is hard to bear. No previous relationship would have gotten to this point. I would have walked a long time ago. I take the vows seriously, thought we had a good thing, and of course we share a daughter.
Regardless, your W rewrote history to try to get you to back off. She wants to do what she wants to do when she wants to do it. I don't think she is purposely taking advantage of you...she simply doesn't care. Rather than think about it in terms of whether or not she takes advantage of you or not, look at it in terms of what is best for D2.
I think you are doing this, but keep D2 at the forefront of everything you do and everything you decide.
I am doing my best to put D2 first. She doesn't deserve any of this. I don't know how much more I can back off without just letting W do whatever she wants or walking out the door.
Also look up mtb's threads. I will look to see if I can find them. He had a particularly WW and he dealt with it pretty well. I think at some point, if this isn't working for you, then you will need to ask your W to leave. And when she does, make sure you change the locks. WWs that are especially wayward will forsake everything, including their kids.
Thanks for the tip about mtb. I will read.
I think I'd love it if she left. The best week I've had in months was when she was away. Right now I don't think it's an option because neither one of us, but particularly me at the moment, could afford to maintain our current place without the other's financial contribution. Having additional housing costs would bury us because D2 will be starting preschool in August. Very expensive but actually the most affordable one around here. I really need a better and more regular income.
A few months ago W said that, if she wanted to leave, she'd leave. She'd go stay with her parents. They used to live 2,000 miles away but now live about 2 miles away. I don't entirely buy it because she's gone out of her way to keep them from knowing anything about our sitch. Very recently the parents downsized to a very small 1-BR place because W's sister moved out. That was her chance to go stay with them and she passed it up. I think her plan, as much as she has one, is to stay here, do whatever she wants, and count on me to pick up the slack. At a minimum a schedule is needed.
First thing I would do if I were you is contact a lawyer. I think he would start having you document everything. Document when she leaves, when she comes home. How much time she is spending with D2. How much time she is spending away. The goal here is for you to get full custody if your W continues down this path.
I have started documenting (5 of last 9 nights). It's not just going out at night. It's also leaving for work a bit earlier than before and coming home later. OW2 works at same place. When she started this job she was thrilled to be able to get home as early as 3 and, for months, came home immediately after the school day ended. Now she gets home at 5 and half the time heads back out at 7 or 8.
Wow well she is certainly playing out the "girls gone wild" scenario. One thing I would suggest is you not let her speak to you that way again. Just tell her if she does you will leave the room or house, then if she continues, leave!
Second I would suggest you go ahead and put that schedule together and get her to agree to it. She is taking advantage of you big time, time to put a stop to that!
Good advice. I just looked at her. The schedule is definitely coming.
Yes, that's why we call it "rewriting" history. It has little or no basis in fact.
There's plenty she identified a few months back as making her unhappy that had basis in fact. I've been more than willing to plead guilty to things I'm guilty of. But this new stuff is totally opposite from the reality. I can only imagine the look on my face. All I could say was, "I'm sorry that you felt that way."
Listen,
This is a poker game. Do not show her your cards.
I am all about 50/50 parenting. Both parents should be equally involved in the children's lives.
H"W, this is not working for me. To reduce confusion, I think it is best that we implement this parenting plan that gives us equal time with the children each week. I believe we should impliment it right now unless you want to propose a different split. Please look it over and let me know what you decide."
Make it look official, like it was drawn up by a lawyer.
Listen,
This is a poker game. Do not show her your cards.
I am all about 50/50 parenting. Both parents should be equally involved in the children's lives.
H"W, this is not working for me. To reduce confusion, I think it is best that we implement this parenting plan that gives us equal time with the children each week. I believe we should impliment it right now unless you want to propose a different split. Please look it over and let me know what you decide."
Make it look official, like it was drawn up by a lawyer.
Agree. I deal with contracts and such all the time, so making it official won't be a problem. Unfortunate that it's come to this.
Also look up mtb's threads. I will look to see if I can find them. He had a particularly WW and he dealt with it pretty well.
I took a look at the mtb threads. What a mess. His wife working in the bars, the pills and cocaine, not seeing the kids for weeks on end. It reminded me of another couple of stories I've seen on here. Just sad.
My wife definitely wants to go out and have her fun without me involved at all, and I feel like she's not paying enough attention to D2, but otherwise she's been healthy. Eating better, hardly ever drinks, no drugs at all. OW2, other than potentially hooking up with a married mom, seems to be a model citizen. She's not hanging out with total dirtbags. Not that that helps me much.
Six months ago she said that she spent all her time worried about our child, her parents (who had recently relocated here, language barrier, money issues), her sister (mental health issues), her at-risk students, and me. These days of course that's been revised to just me. I think the truth is that she loves D2 but doesn't love the loss of freedom that comes with having a young child, and it's manifesting like this. If our relationship were otherwise OK, with no infidelity issues and completely shutting me out, I'd be totally fine with watching D2 sometimes so she could get out and have some fun. She's gone about this terribly and all of us will probably pay for it forever.
Mtb was tempted to give in to his W almost the whole time but in the end took the tough steps necessary for her to sleep in the bed she made.
I deal with contracts and such all the time, so making it official won't be a problem. Unfortunate that it's come to this.
Just separate things into "Compartments". Get documented agreements as landing places.
Keep your emotions under control when interacting with W. You are the rock right now.
Also look up mtb's threads. I will look to see if I can find them. He had a particularly WW and he dealt with it pretty well.
I took a look at the mtb threads. What a mess. His wife working in the bars, the pills and cocaine, not seeing the kids for weeks on end. It reminded me of another couple of stories I've seen on here. Just sad.
My wife definitely wants to go out and have her fun without me involved at all, and I feel like she's not paying enough attention to D2, but otherwise she's been healthy. Eating better, hardly ever drinks, no drugs at all. OW2, other than potentially hooking up with a married mom, seems to be a model citizen. She's not hanging out with total dirtbags. Not that that helps me much.
Six months ago she said that she spent all her time worried about our child, her parents (who had recently relocated here, language barrier, money issues), her sister (mental health issues), her at-risk students, and me. These days of course that's been revised to just me. I think the truth is that she loves D2 but doesn't love the loss of freedom that comes with having a young child, and it's manifesting like this. If our relationship were otherwise OK, with no infidelity issues and completely shutting me out, I'd be totally fine with watching D2 sometimes so she could get out and have some fun. She's gone about this terribly and all of us will probably pay for it forever.
Mtb was tempted to give in to his W almost the whole time but in the end took the tough steps necessary for her to sleep in the bed she made.
Yep, your sitch is no where near as bad as mtb's. However, your W is showing some definite GGW behavior, and at the expense of D2. That is why I pointed you in mtb's direction. mtb did struggle but notice how strong he got when he finally decided he'd had enough, and he was going to put his kids first, and himself 2nd. Her a distant 3rd. The problem with our sitches is that our love for our Ws make us focus too much on them. We think it is our job to save them from themselves. Almost all of these WWs are willing to put their wants and needs above everything else: their kids, their previous morals, and especially the lBH.
I can also say from my own experience, that when my perspective switched from trying to save my W from herself, and trying to save my D and myself, things turned around pretty quickly. My sitch was very unique in timing and turnaround speed, so please take it with a huge grain of salt, but you will never move forward with your focus on her.
When W started her new job last fall, one of the highlights was being able to get home early. As she's made friends and developed a crush on OW1, and especially since getting to know potential OW2, she's been lingering at work and coming home later and later.
Yesterday there was a staff meeting until 3:30 and I was surprised to see her walk in the door before 4. Before I could say anything about a schedule for who can go out when, she started talking. Highlights:
--She said she'd gone out with [OW2] Sunday night, mentioning her name for the very first time and calling her "my friend." "I figured you were curious because you came to the front door to look when I got in her car." I reminded her that, when leaving, she told me I had a package on the front porch. I went to get the package and saw a car in the driveway, so naturally I looked at it. I actually thought she had already gone off in her own car.
--She said she has nothing to hide and, in case I'm curious, there's no sexual relationship going on with OW2 or anyone else. (I remember when she denied categorically being interested in anyone else while asking her friend how to initiate a kiss with OW1, so I take this with a huge grain of salt.)
--She said if I wanted to know who she's going out with, just ask. (This is the same W who told me a week ago it was none of my &*@!%# business. I'm not going to ask.)
--She said I seemed upset when she went out Sunday. (I was, but had tried not to show it. She knows me too well.) I said I just need some notice. She thought she'd told me in advance. I said not to my knowledge. She apologized.
--I brought up the schedule and she immediately agreed both to the idea and to my specific proposal, and promised to give me reasonable advance notice.
--She said she hoped I didn't think she was going out too much. Mirroring my words from 10 days ago, she said she is trying to find a balance between having fun and being there for "the family." Said she generally goes out when D2 is going to sleep. Said Sunday she got up early, 4 loads of laundry, cleaned out a closet, worked in the garden, did an art project with D2, made a nice dinner, THEN went out. All I said was, "You got an awful lot done yesterday. It was impressive." She said she thought it had been a bit excessive lately and planned to scale back a little.
--That happened immediately. I am on a neighborhood council and we meet first Mondays at 6. Usually done by 7 or so. She had been pestering me for days about when I'd be home so she could run out to 8 pm dance class with OW2. Yesterday she said she wasn't going to the dance class. She stayed home.
Trouble in paradise with OW2? She'll probably turn around next week and say they're madly in love. Not going to read anything into this.
At least we'll have a schedule.
Keep your emotions under control when interacting with W. You are the rock right now.
This has been the challenge. I'm sad and mad a lot of the time.
Yep, your sitch is no where near as bad as mtb's. However, your W is showing some definite GGW behavior, and at the expense of D2. That is why I pointed you in mtb's direction. mtb did struggle but notice how strong he got when he finally decided he'd had enough, and he was going to put his kids first, and himself 2nd. Her a distant 3rd. The problem with our sitches is that our love for our Ws make us focus too much on them. We think it is our job to save them from themselves. Almost all of these WWs are willing to put their wants and needs above everything else: their kids, their previous morals, and especially the lBH.
Good lesson. We'll see if she scales back her nightlife as she indicated yesterday. I hadn't really thought I was trying to save her from herself. I do think her apparent willingness to blow up the family in the name of some independence for herself is a big mistake (and personally hurtful to me), but other than that she isn't going off the rails the way some do.
I know. "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?" Maybe I am trying to save her from herself.
A few months ago I was trying to make her see how important keeping M and D2's family unit intact is. I came to realize that it had the opposite effect and she has to realize that for herself, or at least not coming from me.
I can also say from my own experience, that when my perspective switched from trying to save my W from herself, and trying to save my D and myself, things turned around pretty quickly. My sitch was very unique in timing and turnaround speed, so please take it with a huge grain of salt, but you will never move forward with your focus on her.
I've seen it mentioned multiple times that your turnaround came unusually fast. Last night I read some of your threads and realized that patience, which you wrote to me about, didn't come easily to you either until all this. And that little seeds of doubt can still creep in. It helped me understand that it's a long road back for everyone, it's hard for everyone, and not just a question of you being inherently much better at DB than I.
I can also say from my own experience, that when my perspective switched from trying to save my W from herself, and trying to save my D and myself, things turned around pretty quickly. My sitch was very unique in timing and turnaround speed, so please take it with a huge grain of salt, but you will never move forward with your focus on her.
I've seen it mentioned multiple times that your turnaround came unusually fast. Last night I read some of your threads and realized that patience, which you wrote to me about, didn't come easily to you either until all this. And that little seeds of doubt can still creep in. It helped me understand that it's a long road back for everyone, it's hard for everyone, and not just a question of you being inherently much better at DB than I.
Agree 100%. I struggled mightily. However, I did resolve pretty early on to try and DB as hard as I could. I think that resolve helped me to get through my mistakes. We have a saying around here when someone makes a mistake in DBing. "Don't dwell on it. Just learn and move forward. Get back up on the DB horse!" Or something similar. The point is that once you initiate an R talk, you can't "uninitiate" it. It is water under the bridge, just resolve to do better from this point forward.
I also eventually got detachment down pretty good. By time I took the focus off of her, had GAL in full swing, stop reacting emotionally to the things she was saying and doing, and began to embrace my future life with or without her, the turnaround happened quickly. And again, that was unusual, because it usually take a lot longer. We've had some success stories, but they all take a strict adherence to DBing principles and techniques. One guy (hoosjim) whose W was still engaging with OM, and he started to apply sandi's rules and follow sandi's advice and his W turned around quickly after that. The quickest path to R, if it is possible at all, is to adhere to the principles as closely as possible.
Trouble in paradise with OW2? She'll probably turn around next week and say they're madly in love. Not going to read anything into this.
At least we'll have a schedule.
Who knows, this is what they do. High highs and low lows. Your job is to stay off the roller coaster and hold the middle ground. She's high you're neutral. She's low you're neutral. I do suggest getting that schedule nailed down while she's in a good mood though.
Trouble in paradise with OW2? She'll probably turn around next week and say they're madly in love. Not going to read anything into this.
At least we'll have a schedule.
Who knows, this is what they do. High highs and low lows. Your job is to stay off the roller coaster and hold the middle ground. She's high you're neutral. She's low you're neutral. I do suggest getting that schedule nailed down while she's in a good mood though.
Schedule is agreed to,
I'm having a very hard time being neutral. I spend a lot of time hurt and angry, She's the one who seems neutral. Like she's free and enjoying her life. She's always had an aloof streak but I think she's just a better actor. A few weeks ago she basically invited herself over to a mutual friend's house (really much more my friend) and unburdened herself, All I was told is that all of this is very difficult for her. Could've fooled me.
Agree 100%. I struggled mightily. However, I did resolve pretty early on to try and DB as hard as I could. I think that resolve helped me to get through my mistakes. We have a saying around here when someone makes a mistake in DBing. "Don't dwell on it. Just learn and move forward. Get back up on the DB horse!" Or something similar. The point is that once you initiate an R talk, you can't "uninitiate" it. It is water under the bridge, just resolve to do better from this point forward.
I also eventually got detachment down pretty good. By time I took the focus off of her, had GAL in full swing, stop reacting emotionally to the things she was saying and doing, and began to embrace my future life with or without her, the turnaround happened quickly. And again, that was unusual, because it usually take a lot longer. We've had some success stories, but they all take a strict adherence to DBing principles and techniques. One guy (hoosjim) whose W was still engaging with OM, and he started to apply sandi's rules and follow sandi's advice and his W turned around quickly after that. The quickest path to R, if it is possible at all, is to adhere to the principles as closely as possible.
I've tried very hard to avoid the big mistakes and to follow Sandi's rules. Some are pretty easy. Some, like seeming happy when I'm not, very difficult. All of the progress came when I was doing DB principles well, all of the major setbacks when I lost my cool and gave voice to the hurt within. Which is profound, the deepest I've ever felt.
I'm less satisfied with how I'm doing with the affirmative DB: 180s, GAL, detachment. I'm probably a tough grader but there's definite room for improvement. Especially detachment, though that may be helped along by progress on GAL.
A very bad day yesterday, and I right after I said I was doing OK at avoiding the most egregious mistakes. After discussing on Monday how W would honor a schedule and would go out less, she went to a Meetup event after work with no notice. She later said she "put it on the calendar," by which she meant that, the morning of, she wrote it on the wall calendar nobody ever looks at. She put it in the box for the first Tuesday...in March. Because nobody turned the page when the month changed. That's not adequate notice.
She came home at 7:45 when I was just about to get D2 to bed. She got D2 all riled up, running and jumping around, and totally messed up the bedtime routine. I wasn't happy about any of it and we ended up having a discussion in which we both said things that have probably been on our minds for a while but were better not said under those circumstances. I feel like I should have kept my mouth shut. She slept in the living room and is talking about moving out and imminent D.
Ugh.
Niall, one of the things I had to learn in my sitch was stress management. Finding ways to walk away angry, then deal with that anger. This is very important. Impulsiveness, even when warranted, will not get you to where you want to be. The posters here that are most impulsive have a very difficult time not doing things that cause problems in their sitch. Impulse control is a must, just like patience. The two go hand-in-hand.
Back off. Give it some time to calm down. WASs make a lot of empty threats, this is likely that.
Niall, one of the things I had to learn in my sitch was stress management. Finding ways to walk away angry, then deal with that anger. This is very important. Impulsiveness, even when warranted, will not get you to where you want to be. The posters here that are most impulsive have a very difficult time not doing things that cause problems in their sitch. Impulse control is a must, just like patience. The two go hand-in-hand.
Back off. Give it some time to calm down. WASs make a lot of empty threats, this is likely that.
Understood. I've been holding in a lot lately and I messed up. She actually said she was sorry for rolling in at 8 pm and wrecking the bedtime routine for D2, and I stupidly said I didn't think she was all that sorry. 100% the wrong thing to do and probably not even accurate. My reaction had more to do with her overall seeming lack of remorse for the totality of what she's doing. I should've accepted the apology. I should not have presumed to tell her I knew her feelings better than she did. Is "anti-validation" a term?
Yesterday she came in around 7 (there was a rehearsal at her job) and didn't say a word to me. Slept in the other room again. I just left it. This morning I saw her for a few minutes and we exchanged a few words. She is still mad but not as much as before. I won't force the issue.
After discussing on Monday how W would honor a schedule and would go out less, she went to a Meetup event after work with no notice. She later said she "put it on the calendar," by which she meant that, the morning of, she wrote it on the wall calendar nobody ever looks at. She put it in the box for the first Tuesday...in March. Because nobody turned the page when the month changed. That's not adequate notice.
She knows exactly what she's doing. She knew she was writing it where you'd never see it, she knew you'd confront her, and she already knew the lies she would tell to cover it. Niall, she is a classic rebellious walkaway. She is pushing and pushing to see how much she can get away with. She has zero respect for you and will continue to cake-eat and take advantage as long as you allow it to happen. Have a look at TXHubby's threads to see how this is going to play out. She will eventually destroy you if you don't take your balls back.
She slept in the living room and is talking about moving out and imminent D.
GOOD. You should encourage her to follow through on this. I'm not saying give up on your M, but you've got to set it aside for now and protect yourself and your D from her GGW antics.
After discussing on Monday how W would honor a schedule and would go out less, she went to a Meetup event after work with no notice. She later said she "put it on the calendar," by which she meant that, the morning of, she wrote it on the wall calendar nobody ever looks at. She put it in the box for the first Tuesday...in March. Because nobody turned the page when the month changed. That's not adequate notice.
She knows exactly what she's doing. She knew she was writing it where you'd never see it, she knew you'd confront her, and she already knew the lies she would tell to cover it. Niall, she is a classic rebellious walkaway. She is pushing and pushing to see how much she can get away with. She has zero respect for you and will continue to cake-eat and take advantage as long as you allow it to happen. Have a look at TXHubby's threads to see how this is going to play out. She will eventually destroy you if you don't take your balls back.
She slept in the living room and is talking about moving out and imminent D.
GOOD. You should encourage her to follow through on this. I'm not saying give up on your M, but you've got to set it aside for now and protect yourself and your D from her GGW antics.
I'm just going to leave it for now. You may be right about her doing it deliberately. She was always a little ditzy about this kind of stuff and she wouldn't have done something like that deliberately, but it seems that everyone's spouse was never the type of person to do this stuff...until they reach this point and they are. Since our D2 was born she hasn't had much freedom to go out and do fun things. She decided to start and now has all these new friends and sees all these events she'd like to go to and is like, "Why not?"
One of the things I wanted/needed to change was being more active with our D2 and I'm very proud of how far I've come with that, but
One question I have: A lot of stories I've read on here involve real GGW activities. Drugs, booze, rampant promiscuity. A lot of my W's stuff is pretty wholesome in and of itself. Yoga. Rock climbing. I know she wanted to have a fling with OW1 in the fall, but I don't even know for sure that there's anything with OW2. Does that matter at all?
Yesterday W came home from work straightaway. Continued to ignore me and refused to be in the same room. Honestly it is helping me detach because I find it so ridiculous. She's the one who shut down on me months ago and has been chasing other people. I said some harsh things Tuesday night, and probably should have shut my mouth, but none of them were untrue.
I took a long walk, then had the monthly meeting of a local committee. She texted me that we needed milk, first words in two days. After the meeting I dropped off the milk and went back out. A few of us go for a drink every month after the meeting. I had a great time and felt more like myself, joking and telling stories, than I have in a while.
She texted me that she had put the Tuesday event on the calendar, but on the wrong month, so she was sorry. I waited half an hour and just said, "OK." She added snarkily that she had a dance event for tonight (Friday) but could cancel if that wasn't enough notice for me and I had other plans. I was tempted to say I did have other plans, but I don't and I don't want to play games like that. She actually mentioned the event over a week ago. I told her to go and have a good time. I have something on Saturday.
I am thinking (didn't say) that the time apart will do us good. She then texted that she might come home between work and the evening event, or might go see her BFF who encouraged her to cheat with OW1. I said, "No problem." Right now I don't care what she does. She then texted that she doesn't want to discuss what happened "right now," had never expected me to say some of the things I said, but will have more to say at some point. I replied, "I understand. I know you are upset."
She spent Tuesday and Wed nights sleeping in the living room. I half expected to come home to find her in the MBR and was wondering if she'd try to tell me to sleep elsewhere. But she was asleep, in the living room again, when I returned. Got up and left this morning with a kiss for D2 but not a word to me. I find myself less concerned with where she chooses to sleep. That's her decision.
niall, while the blow up wasn't necessarily good, some good came out of it. You seem to be handling yourself really well since then. I like this entire update. You validated, you did the right thing. I really like the "I don't care what she is doing" attitude. That will serve you very well for detachment.
Keep up the good work. And do NOT give up the MBR.
niall, while the blow up wasn't necessarily good, some good came out of it. You seem to be handling yourself really well since then. I like this entire update. You validated, you did the right thing. I really like the "I don't care what she is doing" attitude. That will serve you very well for detachment.
Keep up the good work. And do NOT give up the MBR.
Thanks Steve. I won't give up the MBR. Last night I came in around 11 and was wondering if she'd be in the MBR and, if so, if she'd try to tell me to go elsewhere. But she was sleeping already in the LR. So no confrontation about that.
I see she's put a number of things on the calendar for April, including some with D2, which I think is good. I'm going to try to fill in a number of days too. I waa upset in part that she was always out and I, being less proactive about making plans and more concerned about spending money, was not. One night a friend invited me to a movie and I had to decline because she was already booked to go dancing. Her parents dropped by and decided to take D2 for the night, so I went to the movie. I was much less concerned with her whereabouts when I had something of my own going on.
She texted me that we needed milk, first words in two days.
Your reply- "good, as long as you're going can you also pick up X, Y and Z."
She added snarkily that she had a dance event for tonight (Friday) but could cancel if that wasn't enough notice for me and I had other plans.
This was a text? Doesn't sound snarky to me, be careful not to read something in that may not be there.
She then texted that she doesn't want to discuss what happened "right now," had never expected me to say some of the things I said, but will have more to say at some point. I replied, "I understand. I know you are upset."
Good response.
Got up and left this morning with a kiss for D2 but not a word to me.
Tell her "see you later", it's not going to make the world explode. Detachment is not being cold/ rude/ indifferent. Detachment is saying something to her and not caring if she responds or not.
She texted me that we needed milk, first words in two days.
Your reply- "good, as long as you're going can you also pick up X, Y and Z."
She added snarkily that she had a dance event for tonight (Friday) but could cancel if that wasn't enough notice for me and I had other plans.
This was a text? Doesn't sound snarky to me, be careful not to read something in that may not be there.
She then texted that she doesn't want to discuss what happened "right now," had never expected me to say some of the things I said, but will have more to say at some point. I replied, "I understand. I know you are upset."
Good response.
Got up and left this morning with a kiss for D2 but not a word to me.
Tell her "see you later", it's not going to make the world explode. Detachment is not being cold/ rude/ indifferent. Detachment is saying something to her and not caring if she responds or not.
About the milk, I was out at a meeting and she had just put D2 to bed. Couldn't go out to get milk without waking and taking her. So I wasn't going to be a jerk about it. When the roles are reversed she picks it up. I want to collaborate as smoothly as possible where our D is concerned.
Exact text: "1. I had noted the calendar but wrong month. 2. I had something for tomorrow BUT apparently it is last minute for you so are you doing something tomorrow? 3. I can cancel my plans."
You're right, it may not be intended as snark. Just struck me that way. She did add a few things to calendar so she's at least trying to give notice.
I can say "see you later." When I told her last night I was leaving for meeting, she turned her head away and said nothing. But I can keep saying that stuff.
W's big plan for Friday was to see her BFF (who is her biggest cheerleader in all of this) after work, come home for a couple of hours, and then go out at 9 for a dance event billed as 10 PM to 4 AM. As I anticipated, she texted me around 6 that there was too much traffic to come home and go back out, so she would just go straight to the dance thing.
I picked up D2 at 2:30, played with her all afternoon, made her dinner, and put her to bed. She woke up around 3:45 and W still had not returned. The event was billed as until 4 AM but she'd been up since before 6. D2 asked for milk around 4:30 and it sometimes gets her back to sleep. I went to kitchen for the milk and D2 saw light in the living room. W had come home. D2 didn't want to leave the living room, W just wanted to sleep. I ended up giving D2 my phone to watch videos and went back to bed.
At 6 W came and tapped me on the shoulder. "D2 is hungry, I need sleep." What she really needs is to figure out if her priority is seeing her daughter at any point in a day, or staying out partying until 4 AM. I came and brought D2 to our bedroom, which W still refuses to sleep in, and she is playing on the floor near me right now while W sleeps on the couch. According to the calendar W is taking D2 to a farm today and then going out again at night. When she sleeps is her problem.
Hi Niall, I've read your thread and I don't know if I can be of any help, but I would like to try. I have some questions, if you don't mind answering them.
If you were not financially dependent on your W's income, would we see you taking different actions from what you are currently doing?
If your W had a "crush" on OM, would you react differently than knowing it's a woman?
Do you have personal boundaries in place? What would she have to do that would be the last straw for you? I mean, how much disrespect will you endure until you've had enough?
I see you making excuses for your W going out so much. As a mother, I have to wonder how she could be away from her two year old baby that much. On the other hand, as a former WW, I see a lot of familiar signs that shout rebellion. Whatever is going on with this woman, she's acting out in rebellion. It concerns me that you try to be okay it, and even look at another M where the woman is bisexual and think if her H can live that way, then you can too. If that's what you really want........then who are we to try and suggest something else? However, I think if you were okay with it, you wouldn't be here. And the difference in that other H & W from you and your W........his bisexual W is going home and having sex with him, and your W doesn't want sex with you. I suggest this is more than someone who is simply experimenting with the same sex.
You've probably heard how couples have to learn to compromise in M. Don't be misled and think that means you have to compromise your core values, self respect, integrity, etc. As long as you are honest with yourself and true to your own self worth, then your boundary lines won't get buried beneath the b.s. your W is dishing up and serving. Don't you think it's time you evaluate where you draw the line in being disrespected? How long are you willing to play along with her selfish behavior, deny you sex, and leave you basically raising your child alone? That's up to you. From where I sit, I wonder even if this was some type of flash in the pan where she got it out of her system, so to speak.........would she respect what she had in a H when she was ready to settle down and take her role of wife and mother seriously? Nice guys want to believe the W will respect them for how much they put up with, but that's not the case when she's behaving badly.
I don't pretend to understand her sudden attraction for women. I'm more inclined to believe she had either suppressed these feelings a long time........or something stimulated her and made her feel "alive", and she wanted more. If it were another man in the picture, I'd say it was the thrill of crossing the line and dabbling where she had no business dabbling. Why would it be any different with the same sex? I don't understand how some men are okay with their W having sex with other women. Why is not on the same level as her cheating with a guy? Anyway, you have to decide where you draw the line in the sand. What will it take for you to say, "Enough is enough".
Thanks so much, Sandi. Here goes.
If you were not financially dependent on your W's income, would we see you taking different actions from what you are currently doing?
It would be an entirely different situation. I would not be thrilled at not living with D2 every day, but I would be much more open to one of us staying elsewhere for a time. As it is, my only real option would be to go stay with family several hours away and not see my D every day. I'm trying to get a better job situation so I have some additional options.
I read on Gordie's thread (I think), when he decided not to move out, about this being the equivalent of the bullet you take for your child. Right now I stay for D2.
If your W had a "crush" on OM, would you react differently than knowing it's a woman?
Ethically and morally, I see no difference in terms of infidelity (I still don't know that a PA has happened but what has happened is bad enough).. At a low point I happened to learn of my friends' little arrangement. Because I thought there was a higher likelihood that she'd later resent not having explored the interest in women if we R, I briefly considered if I could accept some limited contact. I've since learned that I can't and certainly not while I'm being frozen out.
Do you have personal boundaries in place? What would she have to do that would be the last straw for you? I mean, how much disrespect will you endure until you've had enough?
I sure used to. I've been in a number of longish relationships before this one. No sex and, to my knowledge, my partner having a serious interest in others are things that never happened. Had they happened I never would have stuck around this long. I didn't want to be with someone who didn't want to be with me.
Back then ending a relationship might have been painful but a clean break was pretty easy. I never cohabitated before, no shared finances, no marriage vows, and obviously no child. I've been willing to stick it out through a lot more in this situation than I ever would have before. Multiple times I thought about leaving and then looked at all my photos of D2 and thought of all the moments I would have missed. It has been awful and I am trying to figure out where my limit is. Advice has generally been not to move out and I don't think W will either, so it's a stalemate.
More to follow in next post.
I see you making excuses for your W going out so much. As a mother, I have to wonder how she could be away from her two year old baby that much. On the other hand, as a former WW, I see a lot of familiar signs that shout rebellion. Whatever is going on with this woman, she's acting out in rebellion. It concerns me that you try to be okay it, and even look at another M where the woman is bisexual and think if her H can live that way, then you can too. If that's what you really want........then who are we to try and suggest something else? However, I think if you were okay with it, you wouldn't be here. And the difference in that other H & W from you and your W........his bisexual W is going home and having sex with him, and your W doesn't want sex with you. I suggest this is more than someone who is simply experimenting with the same sex.
It's interesting that it comes across that way because I've mostly been furious about the going out. Until this year I'd have said she was an excellent mother. But she first reached a point of largely ignoring D2 b/c constantly on the phone at home. Now she's out a lot.
Agree 100% about rebellion. I have always been pretty good at being objective and I think she was very unhappy before. She felt, rightly, that she had too much of the burden of D2 and housework. She also felt, I believe unfairly, that I wasn't contributing financially. She had a tough job she hated and no energy even before D was born and sleep disappeared. Now, with a new and less exhausting job, she has the energy to go out apparently and she sure is doing it. This is a lifestyle she never really wanted until we had a child and it seemed like she couldn't. Anger built at me and her life in general and she became, by her own words, cold, hard, and selfish. And she's proud of it. I find it unacceptable even where I am concerned but particularly as concerns D2.
My friend with the bisexual wife recently reminded me of their arrangement. Apparently he's not threatened because it's different anatomy and he doesn't consider it a threat. And it turns him on. I said I didn't believe I could do it but, in any event, his wife hadn't stopped having sex with him. In fact, having heard how miserable I am in my sexless marriage, she's been having more sex with him so they never reach this point. Glad some good has come of this.
Agree completely there's more than just a desire to experiment. Her real issue is deep unhappiness with our MR and our life, and she's built up a wall against me.
You've probably heard how couples have to learn to compromise in M. Don't be misled and think that means you have to compromise your core values, self respect, integrity, etc. As long as you are honest with yourself and true to your own self worth, then your boundary lines won't get buried beneath the b.s. your W is dishing up and serving. Don't you think it's time you evaluate where you draw the line in being disrespected? How long are you willing to play along with her selfish behavior, deny you sex, and leave you basically raising your child alone? That's up to you. From where I sit, I wonder even if this was some type of flash in the pan where she got it out of her system, so to speak.........would she respect what she had in a H when she was ready to settle down and take her role of wife and mother seriously? Nice guys want to believe the W will respect them for how much they put up with, but that's not the case when she's behaving badly.
Agree. My self-worth has taken a hit in recent years. I feel largely responsible for us getting to the point we did last summer, but I believe her actions since have been unacceptable. Like I said, I'm trying to hold on to keep my relationship with D2. People here say it takes a long time and 7 months is nothing.
W used to admire and adore me. A lot has happened and right now she definitely does not respect me. I don't think she will respect me more for putting up with her crap, but I also don't yet think leaving is the right decision. I never expected to be in anything like this situation. Not just with the MR but financially, etc.
Mostly separate weekend. W still sleeping in living room.
Yesterday she took D2 over to her parents' place (5 mins away) and stayed out until about 8 pm. There was an event near the coast I could have gone to, but I was running late so I chose to skip it and just went for a drive in the same area and a short hike by myself. It was a nice day after a long winter and being near the water always makes me feel a little better. A pinch when I passed the church where we were married almost 8 years ago. Things were so different then.
Today W got up and did some tidying up around the house. With a 2-year-old this needs to be done constantly and I do plenty of it. W has this way of being annoyed when she's doing it, as if all the burden's on her. It always makes me tense. W took D2 out to a petting zoo or something with her parents. I went to an event where most of the people I know around here were going to be. Had a long talk about football with an older guy I've known casually for a few years and it was nice to feel like a normal person for a while.
W called an hour ago and asked if I was home. She wanted to drop D2 off for a nap and run to the supermarket. We have been speaking a bit more civilly about D2 and mundane things like what groceries we need. Getting more resigned to whatever is coming. The ball is largely in her court. I have my own things to work on.
Not much going on. W still sleeping in LR but, since Monday, has been more "normal" in terms of making small talk, etc. She went out to her dance class Monday evening. I went to a panel discussion in town Tuesday evening.
I think her sleeping in the living room is unnecessary but it's her call. I'm not going to say a word about it. I'm starting to get used to having the bedroom to myself. I found I didn't care this time that she was going to the dance thing. Could this be the beginning of true detachment?
Earlier today I got in a workout and tonight I'm going to a friend's birthday party. Focusing on job applications and D2.
10 days W has slept in the living room. Yesterday we had house painters working on the outside of our building. She came home from work mad about traffic and decided paint fumes were no good for D2 and too cold to open windows. They both spent the night at her parents' place. I got together with my friends next door.
W is off from work next week and has multiple things planned with D2 to which I apparently am not invited. This is not how I want to live. Trying to ride it out and focus on what I must, but part of me wants it to get better or just end.
I spoke to my uncle for his birthday. A few years ago he stayed with us for a while. He said he heard we are having trouble and that the idea I was controlling toward her was laughable, that she has many good qualities but is the most controlling person he knows. It helped somewhat to be reassured I'm not remembering everything wrong.
Journaling here a bit because it's somewhat cathartic. I've had all sorts of thoughts the past few days but they escape me now. Mostly about how we got here and the unhealthy patterns, etc. How she came to see me as both a resented parental figure and a second child, etc.
W is on vacation this week and originally had all sorts of plans to do things with our D2. I was not included in any of these plans, which still stings a bit. Last year we all took a short trip as a family over the April break. To my chagrin but not my surprise, D2 now has been dropped from a number of W's plans, although W did spend a lot of time with D2 over the weekend and brought her to a BBQ yesterday morning that she originally didn't plan to bring her to.
Friday W had a drink with coworkers when they got out but was home by 6 or so. We put D2 to bed together.
Saturday she ran errands in the morning with D2, went to help her sister decorate a new place without D2, and stayed out most of the day. I took D2 to the park during the day. To my surprise, instead of just going home, W met us at the park. I was supposed to go to a playoff hockey game but my ticket fell through, so I went out with a friend in the evening.
Sunday W took D2 out during the day and went to a dinner/ Game of Thrones party in the evening. I went for a hike and watched a small road race near our house.
Yesterday (Monday) was a holiday here. W took D2 to the BBQ early, went to her parents' for several hours, then went out to her now-regular dance class with potential OW2 (more on that below). I went with my friend next door to watch a big event happening right near our house and we had a couple of beers. I was on kid duty from dinnertime on.
This morning I had client and networking meetings. W took D2 to a museum in town, met up with a coworker whose daughter is the same age and will be in our D2's class at preschool in the fall. Apparently they got along really well, which is great since D2 really hasn't been around enough kids her own age. W dropped D2 off with me and went off to see a movie with yet another friend. She mentioned something about trivia night tonight but I reminded her that we made a schedule and Tuesday is my night and I have plans with a friend.
Tomorrow she's got a mystery plan from 10 to 1 (in my experience things that go on the calendar with no info beyond a time involve not OW2 but my W's BFF, whom she knows I don't like these days). It was marked as "Mom + D2," but D2 has to be at the pediatrician at 1. So W is using that as her excuse for not taking D2 to her morning thing. And for asking me to handle the doctor's visit.
Thursday was on the calendar as "W-day trip with D2." She claimed her plan was to take D2 to a zoo about an hour away. I think it would be fine. Now she's saying that D2 doesn't do well with long car rides. So I said, "Do something with her closer to here." W said, "Well, I want to go far enough away from here that I feel like I had at least one day of real vacation." And apparently that means more than spending time with D2.
She tells me that, if I think D2 will be OK driving to that zoo, I should take her. I wouldn't hesitate to but, alas, I have other responsibilities on Thursday. My W thinks that, because I work mostly from home with odd hours, that I don't do anything. So W now plans to leave D2 with her mom on Thursday and drive off to do whatever she wants. Before this time frame I'd be fine with that. But under the current circumstances it seems sad and selfish.
An older couple we know invited both of us to a jazz concert next week and, to my surprise, W accepted. I have, from my POV, stopped pursuing W long ago, so I wasn't going to mention this invite. Just see how she handled it. This morning she asked me and I said it sounded like fun. She immediately wrote and told them yes. We'll see how that goes.
I will say that, as I've stopped pursuing (I let her come to me on virtually everything beyond saying, "Good morning") she has not started to chase me at all. Her attitude toward me these days (admittedly speculating because I'm not a mindreader) seems to swing between, "I've wasted enough time worrying about him and I don't care," and "I want to enjoy my life independently and I hope he will too." She's not erratic, moody, all over the place. She is pretty selfish and determined to accept as many invitations as possible.
Interesting news on OW2 front. Someone I know just told me that, a couple of weeks ago, W and her potential OW2 were at an LGBT dance event in the city. OW2 apparently kissed someone else there and seemed to be trying to help W meet people, which was a surprise to my old friend who didn't know about any of our issues. So perhaps OW2 is not hooking up with my W, but if W's not cheating it's for lack of opportunity, not lack of desire. Kind of the same difference. Not really a surprise at this point but still disappointing.
For whatever reason, when I think of this fall I still can't come to terms with the idea of potentially not living with W and D2 all together. I still see all of this as so unnecessary. I've always been the kind of person to want to talk out difference and reach an understanding. DB principles make sense, I understand that we're past the point of talking it out easily, but still hard for me to accept that.
I've felt a lot like she's been having much more fun than I am. I always had friends and was active. Lately a lot of my friends are busy and not up for meeting up much. I asked 8 or 10 old friends and relatives to describe me in one word the past couple of years. I got things "preoccupied," "withdrawn," "worried." A lot of people close to me going through really tough times, my dad has been sick, people dying, and I've had a lot on my mind. W has checked out on all of that.
W now has some new, young friends not dealing with such heaviness and is regularly invited to all sorts of fun activities. I have to push aside being a little jealous about her new social life, and resentful that it wasn't necessary to combine it with completely casting me aside. I was paid on a biggish project and we got a decent tax refund, so I'm less worried about cash flow and will start to push outside my comfort zone more.
Long, long post and I don't expect anyone to read it all but it's helpful to get some thoughts out.
Journaling here a bit because it's somewhat cathartic....Long, long post and I don't expect anyone to read it all but it's helpful to get some thoughts out.
Always helps getiing it out of your head. I skimmed it. Let us know if we can help.
I read it and I hear you, having it sting when the W is out with the children and taking pictures. Mine is in the same boat that selfishly going independent and having more fun than I am. My w doesn't seem like the type of person to rub it in people's faces, but today she went to the beach with MIL. She took pictures of S1 while I was at work. She did invite me and asked me about it several weeks ago, but I declined because I have to work. She never told me the actual day or that she was going today .They went to the Tiki Bar, a place I introduced my Wto many years ago. I don't know if she's just being a good parent and sending me pictures of S1, or she's on intentionally trying to rub it in my face saying hey look what you missed. Either way it makes me sad and I need to get over it. I'll schedule and sometime on my weekend to take him out to a place myself. It's amazing how they project onto us about us being selfish. But they can't see their own actions. Just tired of it, tired of the blame shifting tired of the resentments especially the parental ones. My wife's latest pathetic excuses that she couldn't do the bariatric surgery to lose weight after she flip-flopped on it four times because she couldn't trust me for a month to take care of S1. So I'm to blame for everything that's wrong in her life. Her latest Facebook post really crack me up but I'm not going to respond to any of it for her text messages unless it's an emergency. Time to detach some more and do me.
Journaling here a bit because it's somewhat cathartic....Long, long post and I don't expect anyone to read it all but it's helpful to get some thoughts out.
Always helps getiing it out of your head. I skimmed it. Let us know if we can help.
Thanks. Not sure except if someone can give me the magic formula for truly GAL and detaching. She, and the overall situation, are in my head way too much. I'm still hurt every time she heads out to some social function we would have attended together at any time from 2009 to last fall.
I read it and I hear you, having it sting when the W is out with the children and taking pictures. Mine is in the same boat that selfishly going independent and having more fun than I am. My w doesn't seem like the type of person to rub it in people's faces, but today she went to the beach with MIL. She took pictures of S1 while I was at work. She did invite me and asked me about it several weeks ago, but I declined because I have to work. She never told me the actual day or that she was going today .They went to the Tiki Bar, a place I introduced my Wto many years ago. I don't know if she's just being a good parent and sending me pictures of S1, or she's on intentionally trying to rub it in my face saying hey look what you missed.
Thanks for reading.
It is hard to tell sometimes. Try to go with she's just sending you photos of your son. I take a ton of photos of my kid, so when W takes her somewhere without me I'll ask her to take some and send to me. Since I asked, it doesn't seem like she's rubbing my nose in it by sending the photos. Although she does seem like she's rubbing my nose in it by going out as much as she does.
10 years ago she said all she wanted was me. Now she's decided that she wasted her 20s being bored with our life and, at 32 with a toddler, is going to do all the single 20-something things she missed out on. Of course she wasn't bored at the time and we've done a lot of great things together. I just find the idea that she can only go have fun if I'm not included, ever, extreme. She has acknowledged as much.
It's amazing how they project onto us about us being selfish. But they can't see their own actions. Just tired of it, tired of the blame shifting tired of the resentments especially the parental ones. My wife's latest pathetic excuses that she couldn't do the bariatric surgery to lose weight after she flip-flopped on it four times because she couldn't trust me for a month to take care of S1. So I'm to blame for everything that's wrong in her life. Her latest Facebook post really crack me up but I'm not going to respond to any of it for her text messages unless it's an emergency.
My D2 is a lousy sleeper. For a long time, if anyone else tried to put her to bed, she'd scream for Mommy. My W felt like she could never go out in the evening, with or without me. Last summer she'd meet friends but be home by 8 for bedtime. And she really resented it. Her friends were late 20s, no kids. Last fall, ironically right around the time she started stonewalling me and wanting out, I took over bedtime duties. Now she can go out without that worry and she sure has been taking advantage of it. I had to insist on a schedule where I get my days too. Sad to me that D2 now has only one of us home in the evenings most days, but I didn't create this situation, I don't want it, and I need to get out of the house for my own sake.
I was probably not the best partner or dad my D2's first 2 years. I tried but I could have done much more. These days I think I'm much better and W, who was a great mom, is dropping the ball big time. But in her narrative she's still Supermom and I'm useless.
Either way it makes me sad and I need to get over it. I'll schedule and sometime on my weekend to take him out to a place myself.
Time to detach some more and do me.
Yep. That's the way. Easier said than done, at least for me. Good luck!
Me too Naill11 2009 to last fall. You have to constantly keep reminding yourself that this isn't the same person from last fall. They have all this pent-up resentments, blame shifting, and projection, as if we are sure fire cause why they are unhappy. They're gravitating like you said towards their own independence and saying the hell with the LBS. People here have said it time and time again and it's exactly what are WAS doing, focusing on themselves. We need to focus on ourselves and the time we spend with our children. Maybe im right, maybe im wrong for thinking this way, but the more we involve ourselves independently away from them and the more we involve ourselves with our children maybe they'll wake up and realize what they're missing instead of us?
How she came to see me as both a resented parental figure and a second child, etc.
How did you see it?
W is on vacation this week and originally had all sorts of plans to do things with our D2. I was not included in any of these plans, which still stings a bit. Last year we all took a short trip as a family over the April break. To my chagrin but not my surprise, D2 now has been dropped from a number of W's plans, although W did spend a lot of time with D2 over the weekend and brought her to a BBQ yesterday morning that she originally didn't plan to bring her to.
Niall, your W is shutting you out of her life. This is just the beginning.
I was supposed to go to a playoff hockey game but my ticket fell through, so I went out with a friend in the evening.
Great!
W dropped D2 off with me and went off to see a movie with yet another friend. She mentioned something about trivia night tonight but I reminded her that we made a schedule and Tuesday is my night and I have plans with a friend.
Did she follow the schedule, or did she ignore it and go be with her friend?
As much activity your W does, I'm wondering who does the work around the house. Who actually takes care D2? Frankly, I am suspicious of all these times she's suppose to be out with D2. To me, it sounds as if she could be using this as her cover for being with other women. That's just my 2 cents based on the wayward W behavior. I mean, she may have the child with her, IDK, but I think she's blowing smoke up your a$$ for the most part.
She has found a new playground with women who want to participate. I don't know what you think is going to happen. Do you think this will just wear off and she'll stop her pursuit with same sex partners?
Do you have a plan of action?
Me too Naill11 2009 to last fall. You have to constantly keep reminding yourself that this isn't the same person from last fall. They have all this pent-up resentments, blame shifting, and projection, as if we are sure fire cause why they are unhappy. They're gravitating like you said towards their own independence and saying the hell with the LBS. People here have said it time and time again and it's exactly what are WAS doing, focusing on themselves. We need to focus on ourselves and the time we spend with our children. Maybe im right, maybe im wrong for thinking this way, but the more we involve ourselves independently away from them and the more we involve ourselves with our children maybe they'll wake up and realize what they're missing instead of us?
Yeah, there were signs. She said a few times over the past couple years (really, since having our D2) that she didn't know who she was anymore. She decided that she had spent all her time worrying about everyone else (D2, her parents, sister, students, friends, me, since revised to be just me) and it was time to worry about herself. Figure out what made her happy and do it, whether I liked it or not. Especially if I didn't like it. She freely admits that she's become (her words) selfish, cold, hard. She's proud of it, like that equates to strength.
I don't know if she'll wake up and see me in a better light. But we have to develop independence to be ready for either a healthier MR or the very real possibility of divorce. Regardless of outcome it's what we have to do.
Sandi, thanks for checking in. Up higher in the thread were responses to some questions you asked me a week or two back. Answers to these questions are here.
How she came to see me as both a resented parental figure and a second child, etc.
How did you see it?
Complicated. When we got together I was 33, she was 22. English not her first language. She was in a new city, knew nobody except me and her uncle (who's my old friend). I'd lived there for 15 years. Economy was awful in 2009 and she couldn't find work. I had a very high-paying job at the time. She came to live in my place and had no role in the finances at all for years, I paid for everything. Now things are different.
Where we live now I'd also lived before (grew up near here) and knew my way around. She was always getting lost. I fell into the pattern of helping her edit her grad school papers, etc. So I did a lot of taking care of her and, although I admired her abilities and accomplishments, I probably still felt like I needed to do certain things for her. I still handle the bills, etc.
I came to learn that she resented this, saw things I considered helpful as controlling. Like I thought she couldn't handle things herself. The past couple years I've been worried about money a lot, especially since having a child. I was pretty depressed and distracted. Didn't do enough around the house. She deeply resented that, in her mind, I was thinking of her as a dumb child while she saw herself as having come into her own and me as stagnating. I don't think it's totally accurate but that doesn't matter...
W is on vacation this week and originally had all sorts of plans to do things with our D2. I was not included in any of these plans, which still stings a bit. Last year we all took a short trip as a family over the April break. To my chagrin but not my surprise, D2 now has been dropped from a number of W's plans, although W did spend a lot of time with D2 over the weekend and brought her to a BBQ yesterday morning that she originally didn't plan to bring her to.
Niall, your W is shutting you out of her life. This is just the beginning.
Yes, I see that. I had hoped she needed to establish SOME independence from me but she seems determined to have total independence.
I was supposed to go to a playoff hockey game but my ticket fell through, so I went out with a friend in the evening.
Great!
Yeah, there was no way I was staying home that night. I needed to get out in the world.
W dropped D2 off with me and went off to see a movie with yet another friend. She mentioned something about trivia night tonight but I reminded her that we made a schedule and Tuesday is my night and I have plans with a friend.
Did she follow the schedule, or did she ignore it and go be with her friend?
Normally she's at work until 4 or 5 and the schedule is for the evenings. This week she's off from work and is doing things during the daytime. She casually mentioned this trivia thing after her afternoon movie, which would have gone against the schedule and I said I already have plans and Tuesday is my night.
As much activity your W does, I'm wondering who does the work around the house. Who actually takes care D2? Frankly, I am suspicious of all these times she's suppose to be out with D2. To me, it sounds as if she could be using this as her cover for being with other women. That's just my 2 cents based on the wayward W behavior. I mean, she may have the child with her, IDK, but I think she's blowing smoke up your a$$ for the most part.
She has found a new playground with women who want to participate. I don't know what you think is going to happen. Do you think this will just wear off and she'll stop her pursuit with same sex partners?
Do you have a plan of action?
We both do a fair amount around the house. I do it more regularly in short bursts, she tends to spend like 6 hours straight on a Saturday cleaning up and doing laundry. I do feel like these days, when she's home, she's on the phone and not as engaged with D2 as she used to be. I try to pick up the slack and be a great dad.
Of all the things I think she's guilty of, trying to have affairs with D2 around is not really among them. She hasn't been out with D2 all that much lately and I know where they've been. Over the weekend she was with her parents, who adore D2. Supermarket, garden store, Target, oil change, helping her sister move out.
Yesterday she took D2 to a BBQ hosted by her female friend's parents. This friend is married happily to a man and I know them. In years past I've gone to this event. She didn't want me there this time. Today she met a coworker, also a woman married to a man, and her D3 at the museum. I dropped them off and picked them up, they posted photos. This girl will be in D2's class in the fall.
This is what I know at this moment: She has four new friends from her new job that she sees socially. Three are heterosexual and married, the one from this morning has the kid my kid's age. The fourth is a gay woman and they go to these dance parties. I suspected the affair was there but, based on drips and drabs of info, it may not be an affair.
There is no doubt that she WANTS to start some sort of relationship with a woman right now, but no real evidence that she's found any willing participant. There's also no doubt that, at the moment, she doesn't want a sexual relationship or to do much of anything at all with me.
I don't know what I think. She obviously got to a point of deep anger about me and the MR, and this is where she's at right now. I never would have thought her capable of it before, and I don't know if it's always going to be like this or if, at some point, she'll realize that being a divorced mom trying to act like a teenager is not going to be all that.
Plan of action? Trying to improve my income to be better positioned to live around here separate from her if (when) it comes to that. In the meantime genuinely trying to 180 (going pretty well), GAL (going not as well but getting better), and detach (I'm having a very hard time with it).
[/quote]
Yeah, there were signs. She said a few times over the past couple years (really, since having our D2) that she didn't know who she was anymore. She decided that she had spent all her time worrying about everyone else (D2, her parents, sister, students, friends, me, since revised to be just me) and it was time to worry about herself. Figure out what made her happy and do it, whether I liked it or not. Especially if I didn't like it. She freely admits that she's become (her words) selfish, cold, hard. She's proud of it, like that equates to strength.
I don't know if she'll wake up and see me in a better light. But we have to develop independence to be ready for either a healthier MR or the very real possibility of divorce. Regardless of outcome it's what we have to do.[/quote]
W has said very similar things but she's not prideful in selfishness, but in my opinion is taking selfish actions to divide the family and go out on our own independently, and to my knowledge is not in current affair but Teeter tottering on it. However she has said that she got tired of putting all of her family and friends and husband first. Now it's about her new plan and newly-revised life independence and happiness w S1. Mine is a behavior specialist and teacher and she's quitting her job this summer because she doesn't want to return to the stress, she wants to move away from everyone, work from home and become a health coach, a farmer, a new keeper, a stay at home mom. " in other words pursue what makes her happy" (more resentment that she had to work to pay the mortgage) this summer is right around the corner and I don't see anything lined up on her end yet. something tells me I'm going to have to pay for it all, once and if the house is sold. Which I doubt because it won't conform to her timeline and her hopes and dreams.
I'm sorry your wife is being so prideful and selfish and doesn't realize what real sacrifices are, and who they are for. For all the guys out there that work their butts off to provide for their families and their wives complain and never spend enough time with them or the family. Please listen to what they are saying and make adjustments and balance in your lives. Sometimes we all need money to keep a roof over our heads but there are some memories you can never get back. But don't ever let them demonize you because they're coming from a place of selfishness. In their minds they think they do it all when it's far from the truth. It's only partial truth and delusioned thinking at best.
Here's the real truth. A man's world is a man's world and a woman's World Is A Woman's World and usually perceptions are very different. If a man had to do all the things that women do they would go crazy and vice versa. Our spouses never see what we do or what we put up with. And a lot of them want to inflict what they experience on to us, just to give us a taste of what they go through. Still no reason to break up a marriage though IMO. These are universal problems in every marriage I'm sure MWD has seen on a regular basis.
W has said very similar things but she's not prideful in selfishness, but in my opinion is taking selfish actions to divide the family and go out on our own independently, and to my knowledge is not in current affair but Teeter tottering on it. However she has said that she got tired of putting all of her family and friends and husband first. Now it's about her new plan and newly-revised life independence and happiness w S1. Mine is a behavior specialist and teacher and she's quitting her job this summer because she doesn't want to return to the stress, she wants to move away from everyone, work from home and become a health coach, a farmer, a new keeper, a stay at home mom. " in other words pursue what makes her happy" (more resentment that she had to work to pay the mortgage) this summer is right around the corner and I don't see anything lined up on her end yet. something tells me I'm going to have to pay for it all, once and if the house is sold. Which I doubt because it won't conform to her timeline and her hopes and dreams.
I'm sorry your wife is being so prideful and selfish and doesn't realize what real sacrifices are, and who they are for. For all the guys out there that work their butts off to provide for their families and their wives complain and never spend enough time with them or the family. Please listen to what they are saying and make adjustments and balance in your lives. Sometimes we all need money to keep a roof over our heads but there are some memories you can never get back. But don't ever let them demonize you because they're coming from a place of selfishness. In their minds they think they do it all when it's far from the truth. It's only partial truth and delusioned thinking at best.
Here's the real truth. A man's world is a man's world and a woman's World Is A Woman's World and usually perceptions are very different. If a man had to do all the things that women do they would go crazy and vice versa. Our spouses never see what we do or what we put up with. And a lot of them want to inflict what they experience on to us, just to give us a taste of what they go through. Still no reason to break up a marriage though IMO. These are universal problems in every marriage I'm sure MWD has seen on a regular basis.
As best I understand it, my W thinks she spent years putting everyone else's needs ahead of her own to the point where she didn't know who she was or what she wanted/needed anymore. She reached a point of saying, "Forget it. I'm gonna focus on me."
She's not entirely wrong, but I agree that she doesn't really appreciate what I've been through or contributed here. Her story is that she did everything, I did nothing, I'm useless. Even in the post-2016 period that's not really true. For the earlier years it's the total opposite. But she believes what she believes, and right now pesky facts will not change her mind.
She does seem to believe that having failed to focus on her own needs in the past justifies her in making up for it by ignoring the inconvenient fact of me and the MR except when it suits her. And being as selfish as she wants to be. I don't believe that and I think what she is doing right now, especially with a 2-year-old child's family unit at stake, is unconscionable. I was unhappy with things in my life and our MR too. But I've always wanted to stay and fix it. I don't understand the need to veer from one extreme to the other like this.
I can genuinely acknowledge where I let her down and where I need to do better, and point out areas where she could do better, without believing it's best to blow the whole thing up. And truth be told, so far, she's not really making any moves for D or even separation (except sleeping in the living room since a bad argument 2 weeks ago). She's happy to have me around to help with everything but doesn't want a real relationship with me right now. And for now I'm putting up with it because I'm not leaving my D2. My relationship with her comes first.
I hear ya. My son is 1.5 yrs old. She claims she did/does everything, she spends more time watching S1, child rearing is imbalanced, she does all the grocery shopping, cooking, clean, working, she has to do everything for everyone, and never puts herself first...I'm not saying there isn't validity to what they are saying but they're truth and perception can be quite exaggerated at times, either way it is their perception...blah blah blah... One hour im a great and wonderful father, who goes out of his way, and the next hour im demonized that she doesn't trust me for long periods, with S1.
Apparantly I'm to blame now, why she flip flopped 4 times on deciding following through on her bariatric weight loss surgery, because she doesn't trust me to care and physically pick up our S1, and keep tabs on him while she was scheduled for recovery post o.p. and all of this could be further from the truth.
Don't listen to any of it. Don't argue with it. Learn from our hard lessons. Just listen, try to empathize with it, and validate it. They are experiencing cognitive dissonance, and negative absolutes. They will re-write history, what they said, what you said, have skewed perceptions, harbor resentments, flip flop their minds, accuse and project onto us all the things they themselves are guilty of, and accuse the LBS of the same things in different capacities, all in the same hour, and then call us mentally ill.
I had to email the W to make a more conscious effort to not leave knives out on the edge of the counter so S1 doesn't cut himself of face this morning. Observed she did it 3 times this week, but doesn't trust me?...Hmm?... Doesn't clean up after herself, orders out all the time because doesn't feel like cooking. Buys minimal groceries, has no problems play games on phone, and binge watching reality tv shows "as an escape" etc, excuses excuses excuses. Not that I don't have mine? Im 180ing on them. The irony of my sich is my W is a behavior specialist that wants to quit her job in pursuit of her happiness by this summer.
A lot of them say before pre BD, that they felt numb, had a hard time being present, foggy memories of significant events. I think some minds and personalities shut down as a form of self preservation when dealing with continued stress. Most of the patterns I see here with the WAS is complaints of emotional numbness.
Look up anxiety symptom #5 emotional numbness, lightheadedness, and Depersonalization, Derealization, and Disassociation and see if what your W is experiencing, or alludes to experiencing is part of that descriptor.
Be helpful, but don't be a doormat, and don't perform husbandly duties depending on how far along your sich is. Just lean back, give them space, keep interactions at minimal, focus on you and D2. NO R TALKS. I WISH I LISTENED 7 MONTHS AGO. I can only go so long, like a week with keeping my mouth shut. I've probably gotten trapped into R talks indirectly for almost every weekend for the last 4 months. That stops now, and Im moving forward with securing post S life with S1. She can do whatever her heart makes her happy. I want to see how her fantasy plays out in the real world come this Summer/Fall. Protect your children, and let the accusations roll off your back, but also make changes where warranted.
A lot of them say before pre BD, that they felt numb, had a hard time being present, foggy memories of significant events. I think some minds and personalities shut down as a form of self preservation when dealing with continued stress. Most of the patterns I see here with the WAS is complaints of emotional numbness.
Look up anxiety symptom #5 emotional numbness, lightheadedness, and Depersonalization, Derealization, and Disassociation and see if what your W is experiencing, or alludes to experiencing is part of that descriptor.
This sounds very familiar. I will look it up. She said she felt numb and empty for a long time, didn't know who she was.
One of the harder things I've had to do recently was validate and not respond when she accused me of not "allowing" her friends to come to our house. This is the opposite of the truth. I love having people over for dinner, watching a game, whatever. She complained every time. Multiple friends of mine refuse to come back to our house because she wasn't happy about having company and was rude to them. Not once did I ever have any objection to her having friends over to our house.
She also claimed that I made her feel guilty if she went out with a friend (which until recently happened almost never because she was worn out from work and antisocial). And that she was totally cool if I went out to a meeting or met up with friends.
Again, everyone remembers that the opposite is what happened. On the rare occasions when she went out, I generally stayed at home and was happy to relax for a night. When I went out, she texted multiple times asking when I'd be home. Asked me to leave early to bring her food. Complained that the door creaked when I came in. My uncle stayed with us for a while and said that, when I went out in those days, she would stomp around the house very unhappily. So much for her being totally cool with me having separate activities.
Be helpful, but don't be a doormat, and don't perform husbandly duties depending on how far along your sich is. Just lean back, give them space, keep interactions at minimal, focus on you and D2.
Yeah. They are painting the building where we live. It's a four-unit building and I have little control over the painters. She's complained about it every day this week and the painters have been pretty cool about it.
Yesterday morning she was venting about the painters again. I thought she was being ridiculous but didn't say so. She starts in with, "Of course you're not going to go say anything to them." I was thinking (did not say), "You're the one with the issue. You go say something to them. You basically fired me as your H and NOW you want me to be your man and protector?"
NO R TALKS. I WISH I LISTENED 7 MONTHS AGO. I can only go so long, like a week with keeping my mouth shut. I've probably gotten trapped into R talks indirectly for almost every weekend for the last 4 months.
I slip up maybe every six weeks and generally it goes badly. I'm getting better at avoiding R talks (I initiated them almost constantly last fall) but it's not my nature. I generally believe it's better to talk things out and reach a better understanding. I still consider all of this wildly unnecessary.
Ha. You and me both. Talking things out to her a better understanding and resolve, as well as finding it wildly unnecessary.
W continues to be busy during her vacation week and I'm trying to do the same.
Tuesday she was out with D2 at the museum in the morning, then went to see a movie in the afternoon. After dinner I went out with my friends from next door and had a good time.
Wednesday W went out in the morning, I believe with her affair-encouraging BFF, but came back in time to take D2 to the pediatrician. We all went to the playground for an hour, then W went to the supermarket while I took D2 home for a nap. W texted me that her sister was having a BBQ at her new place. She just moved in with her BF about 15 mins from our house. So I took D2 over there and wife joined after finishing with groceries.
Yesterday (Thursday) W went on a day trip about 1.5 hours away. This was originally supposed to be with D2, then W was testing the waters on not bringing her. In the end she took D2 along, which made it much easier for me to finish some work projects.
She called me on the way back and asked if I was at the house. I said I wasn't but I would be soon. She wanted to go out with someone and leave D2 with me. I told her we had a calendar, that Thursday is "my" night, and that I had plans to go out. She asked where, I said, "Out with some friends." She asked which friends. I said she didn't know them, which is true. She was miffed and practically hung up on me. Apparently it's only fun when she gets to do whatever she wants and I stay home and mind the fort. And apparently she's the only one who's supposed to be going out without sharing details. Oh well. I went out and had a lot of fun.
This morning (Friday) I woke up and she'd put an air mattress in the living room. Apparently she has no plans to return to the MBR but was tired of the couch. None of this is what I want but I'm not going to say a word. W took D2 to a playground to meet her coworker and coworker's daughter, who will be in D2's preschool class. They get along really well, which is great since D2 hasn't been around a ton of other kids her age.
W's phone has been acting up so she wanted me to drop everything and go with her to the store (I'm the account holder). I told her I had to finish up some things first and she was miffed. She does not think my work counts. Asked me multiple times how much longer I'd be. I kept saying, "When I'm finished with the project. I have to send it out today.". A couple of hours later we went, with D2. They ended up replacing her phone, and we had to stop by the carrier's store to activate the new one.
After I said I'd like an iced tea and she made this whole thing about having to go to her parents' house and not having time, grumbling because there was traffic on the road with the iced tea. So apparently me taking 2.5 hours to deal with her phone problems is fine, but her taking 10 minutes so I can have an iced tea is a huge imposition. So selfish these days.
She's also become a more hostile driver, making snotty comments about other drivers. ("Come on, MOVE" or "Uh-uh b****, nobody invited you, wait your turn," when a car was inching forward out of a parking lot). Some pretty aggressive driving too, which I don't love with D2 in the car. Anyway...
I hope everyone celebrating had a wonderful Easter!
Not so much for me. When I was a kid it was such a special day. This time it was such a non-event. I took D2 for a walk around the neighborhood in the early morning and, when we returned, W had a trail of eggs leading to a basket with a couple of coloring books and sticker packs. But that was just about it. My MIL had to work, FIL was sick, SIL busy, my family several hours away. Weather was decent so we took D2 to the playground but W just spent most of the day texting, I assume primarily "Potential OW2." I had a great time at the playground with D2 but otherwise it was kind of somber for me.
I should probably rename her since it seems from multiple angles that there is nothing physical or romantic going on with OW2, just a codependent friendship. A good friend of mine actually recognized her and knows her (she appears in my W's Facebook profile pic along with OW1), and says she's pretty controlling and domineering. They were friends for a while but my friend got tired of her nonsense.
Stuff like having one friend with whom she's obsessed at a time (my friend said, "Oh, your W is the flavor of the month?") and wanting to hang out with that person almost every night, and getting snippy if the friend can't until the inevitable falling out. "I need to be friends with people who aren't flaky, I need to know I can rely on you." Stuff like that. Apparently she's not the kind to accept any other commitments in her chosen BFF's life, like a 2-year-old daughter.
So the irony here is that W has invented an alternative history in which she needs independence from me because I'm controlling and jealous (I have had many failings in our MR but those are fiction), only to find herself involved in a friendship with some who is in fact controlling and jealous. W, for all her "I'm bold" stuff these days, can be a bit of a follower and apparently has found someone who wants to play leader. I don't see this ending well. W is capable of cutting friends off without a thought when they annoy her too much, and they work together. Fortunately not in the same department like OW1. Oh well.
Over the weekend, D2 was singing (loudly and off key) a song from a cartoon. W opined that it was "annoying as h***" and that "this is why I could never be a SAHM." Apparently, our wonderful D2 is OK in "small doses."
Who is this person?
Yesterday, what a day.
A week or two back an older couple we've known for years invited us to a jazz concert for last night. To my surprise W said it sounded fun and replied affirmatively to the gentleman the very same day.
Not to my surprise, W then started hedging and saying it depended on finding someone to watch D2. She then didn't even bother to ask her mom or sister, and shot down every suggestion offered. These people even offered their daughter, who's 25 and has plenty of experience babysitting. W kept saying our D2 isn't good with people she doesn't know. Which is true, but we've discussed multiple times trying to get her around more people to fix that.
W does not seem to understand that you don't accept an invitation to something that costs money unless you are sure you are going, and you don't let people know that you're not going three hours before the event. She has done this multiple times.
Last fall a lady in our neighborhood (who let W's parents stay in her house for over a month when our D2 was born) had a 75th birthday party. W kept refusing to commit. They kept asking if we were coming. Eventually I said yes, since there were no tickets or per-person cost involved, and prepared to make an excuse for W (something I've been doing for at least 5 years). Three days before the party W announced wanted to do a dance class that night with her original BFF and was furious that I reminded her of the commitment to the party. In the end she skipped the dance class but refused to attend the party, sulking at home instead. This is the same W who's spent the entire time I've known her complaining that people her age make plans and don't keep them.
So three straight days of her avoiding messages from this guy about the concert that she accepted an invitation to. Then yesterday morning she called me because her tire went very low on the way to work. She needed instructions on how to call AAA, etc. Then she couldn't find her iPhone. She still owes five months of payments on the original one that was broken and Apple replaced just last Friday. Ultimately she had a coworker put the donut on the car and found the phone in the trunk, where she'd put it when looking for the spare in the morning.
Then she wanted to go out with coworkers because "it's been a rough day." I said the people were coming to pick me up at 6:30 for the concert and she was somehow shocked that I was still going without her. And annoyed that she'd have to come home to watch D2.
I went to the concert (front row!) and had a great time! But I'm annoyed at her behavior and wonder why I ever thought she'd honor the commitment. It's brought back a lot of memories of her lack of social consideration. If it weren't for D2 I'd be fine right now with not seeing W for a long, long time.
How am I doing at DB?
For a while I was reading threads voraciously. The last week or two I haven't had much time to do much more than transfer the "journal" I keep on my phone over here, which has some beneficial mental effect. But I've seen that people often give the advice, "Keep DBing," so I've been reflecting on how I'm doing at the basics...
GAL: C+. For a while it was difficult because we have a D2 and funds have been very tight. With W oblivious and going out a lot, I didn't want to do anything that would cost money and the weather here was dismal.
Now the weather is getting better and the money crunch is not quite so bad, so I feel like I have some more leeway. I have gone on more regular walks/hikes, gone to some interesting forums, spent time with friends, taken D2 to parks, spent a day at the beach, and last night went to a jazz concert with friends. I've tried my hand at painting. There's still a lot more that I can do.
180s: B. W said in the fall I'd been irritable and not doing enough around the house or with D2. I immediately set out to fix those things and generally have been successful. I'm a much more engaged dad, doing my share in the house, and I haven't been sweating the small stuff at all. I guess now I have much bigger stuff to sweat. She thought I talked too much. I don't anymore. She thought I tried to do everything for her and it made her feel like a little kid. I don't try to save her anymore.
W doesn't seem to care at all about my improvements, except that they allow her to go out more, but so be it.
I wasn't happy with my physical condition. I used to be (before W) extremely fit and after a perfect storm of 80-hour work weeks, stress, and injuries I had gotten out of shape. I'm 6'3" and I used to weigh about 195 pounds of lean muscle. I got up to maybe 260 with less muscle. Friends say I don't look obese, just like an offensive lineman or something, but I wasn't happy. Since this started last fall I've lost about 25 pounds (maybe half of what I wanted to lose) and fit into clothes that had been too tight. This has been with some exercise but mostly, I guess, the "divorce diet." So there's more I can do there but it's in the right direction.
The big problem I have had is that (long story) my career has not been where I want it to be. When W and I got together I was at the pinnacle of my profession. I lost a very high-stress, high-pay job in the depths of the recession and have been self-employed, with erratic revenues, ever since. Until very recently we've been getting by OK but it's really not good enough. I've spent a lot of time trying to fix this but it's not been easy and I'm very concerned for the future.
I believe 90% of our issues trace back to this. W grew up pretty poor, and was broke and unemployed when we got together. Lately I've been feeling like she just sees me as a walking ATM and it's not a coincidence that her attitude toward me has changed so dramatically exactly at the moment when, for the first time ever, a financial crunch required her to curb her lifestyle for a couple of months. It's a very complicated subject but, more and more, she feels like I'm letting the family down and I feel like I've been used.
Detachment: D. I'd give it an F but it's been better of late. "Detaching lovingly" in these circumstances is not something I take to naturally at all. I'd like to be connected and affectionate. Barring that, I have a hard time engaging at all or being friendly. We have a neighbor who can stab you in the back at noon then invite you over to organize a community cleanup an hour later. I'm not like that. People who hurt, trash, or disrespect me I'm not particularly interested in making nice with.
I've been really hurt and now angered by W's behavior these past few months, and it still stings. I was happy (not giddy but cautiously happy) when she quickly accepted an invite to go to a concert with our friends. I was saddened (but not as much as before) when she inevitably flaked on that commitment.
Last fall W said that, unlike me, she doesn't remember details well but never forgets how someone made her feel. She meant that, during a couple of our arguments, I'd said things she was having trouble getting past. I believe that she said far worse things to me during the same arguments. I especially believe there's no comparison between a single statement in the heat of an argument and treating your spouse with cold disdain for months and months. So I'm getting to the point where I'm not sure I can ever get past how she's made me feel, with full knowledge she's doing it, and unmoved to change course for eight months straight.
She's been sleeping in the living room for nearly a month and, although I think it's unnecessary and I'm saddened by it, I'm something close to resigned and definitely not asking her to come back to the MBR.
Her antics still get to me, but far less than before. I still wish I could repair our family, but far less than before.
Sandi's Rules: B-.Some I've had no problem with, at least the past 3-4 months. Others I still find difficult.
I have not been pursuing in any way. More like avoiding her altogether and trying to get out. No indication my moving away has made her feel like she's missing out or prompted her to come closer. She seems totally fine with having zero to do with me.
I'm not sure, because of money, etc., that I'm going to be OK. I'm extremely concerned for myself and my future relationship with D2. Very worried and unhappy lately and I'm not good at faking otherwise. I think the vibe I'm giving off is "pensive," not "confident" or "moving on." I have a lot on my mind these days.
I try to be polite and considerate in the little things, but I've not been warm to her lately. Right now I despise the person she's become.
Anyway, super-long but I wanted to get it out there.
W doesn't seem to care at all about my improvements, except that they allow her to go out more, but so be it.
Exactly! You have tried to improve the things she complained about, but it won't change the heart of a WW. So, forget her complaints. Focus on how you want to improve yourself as a man. Leave her out of your self improvement project.
I went to the concert (front row!) and had a great time!
Perfect. Glad to hear you went without her.
Exactly! You have tried to improve the things she complained about, but it won't change the heart of a WW. So, forget her complaints. Focus on how you want to improve yourself as a man. Leave her out of your self improvement project.
At the time I started to change these things I didn't know she was gone to the point of wayward. She was just being distant. I found out about her infatuation with OW1 in late October but kept the changes up. At this point it's been over seven months and it has nothing to do with her.
I went to the concert (front row!) and had a great time!
Perfect. Glad to hear you went without her.
No way I was missing this. I was excited to go and it would have been doubly rude to our friends. I didn't throw her under the bus but I didn't make excuses for her either.
Educational weekend that, I believe, helped me realize how far gone my wife is.
This weekend was her new lesbian BFF's birthday. W was going to take our D2 to her potluck party on Saturday afternoon. D2 hadn't had a nap or lunch so I took her for a drive to get her to sleep and then to a playground, with the plan to drop her off at W's party after the playground. I decided I was having a great day with my D2 so I texted W that I would stay with her for the afternoon.
I had plans to go to a movie with my friend on Saturday evening. W, who was supposed to be home at 5, rolled in closer to 8 and asked, "What are you doing after the movie?" with a gleam that almost made me think she wanted to do something with me. No, silly. She wanted to know if I could hurry home from my night out so she could go out with lesbian BFF...again.
"I mean, if you're going to hang out with [friend] after that's totally fine, don't change your plans, but if...you...were...going... to...just...come...home, maaaaybe I'd still be able to go out."
Not a chance I was coming home early. Not a chance.
She said, "It's my friend's birthday. There's a lot of stuff planned." Give me a break. She went dancing with this woman Friday night, spent six hours at her birthday party on Saturday, was going to spend 4 more hours at a birthday brunch on Sunday, and they have a dance class together every Monday night. That's four straight days, plus they work in the same building.
In 10 years, she never made such a fuss over my birthday. Or her own, or anyone else's. I told her no way I would be home in time for her go out again, it was a long movie, we were seeing it in the city, it wouldn't get out until after midnight.
"Oh, OK, no that's totally fine."
Then she texted me SIX times during the movie. "Soooo....any chance you'll be back soon?" "Are you still in the movie?" "When is this movie ending?" Yes, I was still in the movie (saw texts when I got out) and did not respond. Strolled in around 1:30 and went to sleep.
Yesterday morning I did a community cleanup, took D2 to the park while W did her brunch with new BFF, and then I had to chair a meeting after. I lingered after the meeting, talking for a couple of hours with the people hosting, then walked home to put D2 to bed.
I knew before, but I don't think it hit me quite as clearly that she wants to be out with her new friends literally ALL THE TIME, has no concern for me as a person or my time, and precious little for being with our D2. She's like the teenagers she teaches.
"Not a chance I was coming home early. Not a chance. "
Question for you: is this the attitude of a person that is trying or NOT trying to control another person?
Question for you: is this the attitude of a person that is trying or NOT trying to control another person?
Fair enough question, but I'm not trying to control her. I'm trying to establish some reasonable balance between her (apparently insatiable) desire to go out with her new friend/s and my desire to GAL myself.
I had plans, involving at a minimum a 40-minute round trip into town and a 3-hour movie. I am trying a Saturday night out with a friend and establish some boundaries. I don't see how it's appropriate to drop my plans for the evening and race home so that W could get together with her new BFF 5 times in 4 days instead of 4 times.
I'm a pretty reasonable and accommodating person but, that very day, she was supposed to take D2 to the party and I gave her the chance to go without having to worry about D2, who doesn't do well in large groups of strange people. I don't mind because I like spending time with my D2 and we had a fun day. Getting a nap and a long trip to the park was better for D2 than being an afterthought at some adult's birthday party.
I am hardly trying to block W from going out as a general matter. She's gone out with her new friends like 10 times in the past 14 days. I see no need, though, to alter my plans so she can eat even more cake.
nials, I agree you shouldn't have changed plans. But the implication here was that even if you didn't have post-movie plans that you would have stayed out just so she couldn't go back out.
WASs are like blood hounds. They can sniff this stuff out like a rabbit with a yeast infection. Trying to manipulate her into not doing things you don't like is not the removal of pressure. Further, do not be surprised if in the future she ends up getting a sitter or someone else to come stay with D2 just so she can still go out and do what she wants to do despite your plans. WWs especially have no boundaries. I know you think you were setting one, but trust me, the next time she will amp it up a level. WWs are a special breed. NOTHING and I mean NOTHING will stand in their way of doing and getting what they want. That is why we tell LBHs to clear the decks and let them do what they want because even if you tried you couldn't control them.
People who hurt, trash, or disrespect me I'm not particularly interested in making nice with.
Oh, I hear you! Have you had to work with someone who would stab you in the back? If you are in public work, you are required to show professional conduct, but co-workers have a way of making your life miserable. Maybe that's similar to how you feel with your W in this current sitch. I certainly don't envy you.
For some women, when their H leave a good paying job to go into self employment (which often means they struggle the first few years), they can resent it. Depending on the woman and how supportive she was about the H's endeavor. I fail to see how this would cause her to suddenly want to be with other women sexually. However, rebellion is rebellion no matter the wrapping paper.
And, btw, in a previous post I suggested she could possibly be using her days out with D2 as an opportunity or excuse to be with OW. I didn't mean she was engaging in sex while her daughter was with her. Just wanted to clarify. I thought for a mother who wasn't happy about having to keep her child when she wanted to go out with her friends......she was suddenly making arrangements to be out all day with D2. Anyway, probably just my suspicious mind.
W doesn't seem to care at all about my improvements, except that they allow her to go out more, but so be it.
That seems to be the case with wayward W's. They are through with the MR, so they don't really care anymore if their H makes changes. She's done. That's why I try to tell LBH's to make changes for themselves. It's like when a person is overweight and the spouse begs him/her to lose weight. "If you won't do it for yourself, then do it for me", they cry. But it doesn't work that way. The overweight person has to do it for their
self. Even if they lose weight trying to please their spouse, it won't stay off long before they will return to old eating habits.
Don't be too critical of your inability to detach yet. With all the emotions swirling around, it's got to be very challenging to lovingly detach. I'll be honest, if my H suddenly started searching out other men to have an A........I wouldn't
lovingly detach. But then I probably wouldn't if he were out searching for women, either, b/c that's the difference between you guys with NGS and women who are potential or former WW's. You'll put up with it, and we won't. It's that simple. When my adult daughter busted me, one of the first things she said was, "You
know you would not put up with it for one second if it was Daddy and another woman". She was right, and I knew it.......my family knew it.....my H knew it.....everyone who knows the two of us, knew it. It just ain't gonna happen!
So I'm getting to the point where I'm not sure I can ever get past how she's made me feel, with full knowledge she's doing it, and unmoved to change course for eight months straight.
Shock, hurt, anger......these are all normal feelings, considering what you've gone through. Sad to say that many times the WW will want to reconcile, but it's too late and her H has moved on and doesn't want to take a chance with her again.
I have not been pursuing in any way. More like avoiding her altogether and trying to get out.
There are times avoiding the toxic person might be better than having to endure more of their antics.......since you are actually getting out. After all, you have to think of your own mental health.
I'm not sure, because of money, etc., that I'm going to be OK. I'm extremely concerned for myself and my future relationship with D2. Very worried and unhappy lately and I'm not good at faking otherwise. I think the vibe I'm giving off is "pensive," not "confident" or "moving on." I have a lot on my mind these days.
I'm so sorry, Niall. You may have to find another job, if your business doesn't improve, but you will make it. You have a precious little girl that means everything to you, so I know you are going to make it. (((hugs)))
nials, I agree you shouldn't have changed plans. But the implication here was that even if you didn't have post-movie plans that you would have stayed out just so she couldn't go back out.
I didn't mean to imply that at all. I had plans to see the movie but my friend hadn't gotten the tickets. We had wanted to go around 7 and I probably would have wanted to stay out afterwards because I don't get out nearly enough, let alone in the city on a pleasant Saturday night. Not to spite her or control her.
As it turned out, W didn't come back from her "1 to 4 PM" party until 7:40. And then only because I texted her to remind her that I was going to the movie. By then the 8:15 and 9:15 movies were sold out, and we went to the 10 PM showing, which didn't let out until nearly 1 AM.
Had she come home at anything approaching the time she wrote on the calendar, I could have gone to an earlier showing and maybe -- not that I was going to come home to enable that if my friend and i wanted to stay out -- I would have been home earlier.
OTOH, had I not reminded her about the movie, instead of going to the party with D2 from "1 to 4 PM" as announced, she went without D2 and would have stayed at this woman's house, gone out with her late, and rolled in around 3 AM.
WASs are like blood hounds. They can sniff this stuff out like a rabbit with a yeast infection. Trying to manipulate her into not doing things you don't like is not the removal of pressure. Further, do not be surprised if in the future she ends up getting a sitter or someone else to come stay with D2 just so she can still go out and do what she wants to do despite your plans. WWs especially have no boundaries. I know you think you were setting one, but trust me, the next time she will amp it up a level. WWs are a special breed. NOTHING and I mean NOTHING will stand in their way of doing and getting what they want. That is why we tell LBHs to clear the decks and let them do what they want because even if you tried you couldn't control them.
I definitely wasn't trying to manipulate her into going out. She goes out all the time and we started to make a calendar. Saturday from 1 to 4 was her time, new BFF's birthday party with our D2. Saturday evening was my time to go to the movie. She went to the party without D2, my idea, and came home at nearly 8 instead of 4. I couldn't go to a movie until later, and I was not going to be home before midnight, period.
The sitter is an interesting question. D2 is, at the moment, awful with other people she doesn't know. W has said no to various suggestions of potential sitters because she wants to get D2 a little more prepared first. Obviously she may be more, ahem, motivated if it means something she wants to go. But W already has skipped things she really wanted to go to because I wasn't available and she wasn't OK with the sitter option. We'll see.
At this point I really don't care where she goes as long as she doesn't leave me home as the "sitter" every night and I have no life of my own.