New thread.
This is my old thread.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2841134&page=1Just journalling.
I am working away from home right now, and H is at the house with both kids. Everything seems to be going well. We did have a talk about boundaries and behaviour expectations which I agreed to, then last night Eldest started testing them. I found it very upsetting and difficult to stick to the boundaries we had agreed (and which I do think are reasonable and did not agree to just to please H) and he was supportive in that moment, though I can see he was frustrated too. I need to talk about why I find it so scary and difficult in my IC I think, and I will.
Just thinking about forgiveness. About that being a step forward. I want to forgive. What gets in the way is that I am not sure that the things that have hurt me won't happen again. Not forgiving almost feels like keeping my guard up. Being wary and prepared. I think H is in the same boat. I do think he's wise not to want to live with an unforgiving and defensive wife, and I want to move past that, but I am not sure how yet.
And I have to be honest here Alison: you need to forgive your husband for the past. I can see lots of 'I understand how he was like this because I was like that' but I don't see any forgiveness yet. Maybe it's too early for you. I feel like until you can forgive him at least a bit (emotionally, not just intellectually) and let go of some of your resentments you will find it hard to trust that he can change, and your behaviour will make it harder for him to change, because you'll constantly be judging and waiting for him to slip up and go back to old habits. I can see that he did a few things during family therapy which seemed like old habits, but it sounds like outside that he also did some positive things which show willingness to change. Maybe try to focus more on the positive stuff than the negative, it takes time to change habits and if you believe the worst of him then he'll live down to those expectations. None of his terrible behaviour was acceptable, just like my husband's behaviour was unacceptable, but they both had their reasons for behaving that way and they had no malicious intent, they were responding in a really terrible way to stuff they felt and to the way we acted and reacted. But forgiveness is a process and a very long and difficult and cyclical one too, I'm finding. Anyway, I'm playing devil's advocate to some of the stuff you're saying, I know you've had a bad day or two and I hope you manage to find your hope again.
Just taking this from Dilly's thread and thinking about it here so I don't clutter up her thread with my own situation.
I think if I am stuck, this is where it problem is. I feel like I am fairly self aware - with more work to do, of course - and I can see my place in the dynamic and own my short comings. I feel like I have good 180s and while nowhere near perfect, I am working on them. I love my H and I don't need him to be perfect, though I feel incredibly hurt and wary and suspicious of his motivations. He has absolutely consistently said he wants to work on things with me for the last three months. I could give him a long list of things I want to work on, but he hasn't ever been specific about what he thinks he needs to change. He says he'd like to be more 'open' sometimes - and I think that's part of it, and I have seen him trying to do that in small ways that do matter and clearly make him feel vulnerable.
But I don't feel forgiving. I guess I am waiting for him to say sorry - to show proper remorse - before I feel safe that he isn't going to do the old stuff again and hurt me again. And I can see how my lack of forgiveness and waryness leads me to assume the worst about his motivations, which of course isn't going to make him feel safe in being open. I just feel so so so so relieved to be out of that old M that I am terrified of being tricked and sucked back to something that would look like it. I was miserable. I think I'm as much as WAW as I am a LBS in this case. Or a WAW that hasn't quite walked away, or has one eye over her shoulder. I don't know.
Does anyone have any suggestions about forgiveness?
Yes, this seems so true to me from the outside. And also from the perspective of someone who has at least started to forgive my dh. My husband has not said sorry by the way, nor that he wants to work on things, the forgiveness has to start with you on your side (even if he did say sorry are you sure you would believe him?). I'm not sure that saying sorry and forgiving are that closely related. You do have an odd situation where you kind of are the WAW...
For me, the forgiveness has come from trying to understand why he's done what he's done (which might be easier for me given dh has not to my knowledge had an EA or PA), try to see this separation as a sign that things need to change in our marriage, that long-held habits have to alter, that we've both had our defences up against each other and they have to come down, that I have to change my part and my assumptions about dh, and to forgive myself for my part, and to have hope that true change is possible. To work on myself and being open whilst hoping dh is also working on his side and then trying to avoid my usual responses to his behaviour and then working on repair when one or both of us get triggered.
Gosh, no wonder it's all taking so long
I hope that things continue to go ok between eldest and your H.
even if he did say sorry are you sure you would believe him?
This made me laugh. Only because I think you're spot on. I don't think I would believe him. That's kind of the situation we were in after his EA. I was so so so so upset and he was partly very remorseful and making it up to me, and partly getting exhausted by my demands that he make me feel better and we were richocheting between those two states and it was terrible, and in the end he said he felt like I was this bottomless pit of need he would never be able to satisfy and he totally checked out. I can see why he'd feel like that. I have a HUGE problem with trust and that isn't something he can fix for me. I am working on that with IC but I am not there yet. Even when good things happen, I can always find a way to rationalise myself into mistrust - feeling like he's manipulating me, that he doesn't mean it, etc etc. I know this problem is me rather than him because I am like this with everyone. What makes it tricky is that H has acted in ways that have broken my trust and while I want to let that go into the pass, I don't feel emotionally safe with him yet.
I don't think I'll be ready to R until I am at the baseline of theoretically being able to trust someone, even if that person ends up not being H. I have a ways to go.
I want to try to notice the positive though. I was away from work and got home later than I thought I would yesterday. H texted me during the day and asked if I would change our plans and have Youngest instead of him, because he was tired and wanted to catch up on his work. I said yes, and I also said I felt a bit vulnerable doing all this to support him in his work and it made me feel afraid I was being taken advantage of or made a fool of. I don't know whether saying that was good or not, but I was feeling a bit resentful and insecure about giving him the things he's asked for - being as encouraging as I can, doing the bulk of the childcare and child admin, etc etc. Anyway - I did say it. And he was accepting of that and said he was grateful, and it was just temporary until he finished his project. When I finally did get home I was exhausted and he messaged again and said he'd go and collect Youngest and bring him home to me so I could have a nap and a shower, which was thoughtful and I appreciated. It felt like a compromise, and for the very first time in a long time we were parenting together - each thinking about the other's needs and making a contribution. I also saw that when he came to the house to drop off Youngest he was wary of me - probably expecting me to be tired and resentful and blaming and grumpy and a pain - so I just made some chit chat with him and made a fuss of Youngest, and then he relaxed. I can see he is still very scared of the prospect of me being critical of him or unhappy with him.
That sounds pretty positive! I think noticing the positive things is a massive part of this, because for so long we've focused on the negatives. I think also that what you said sounded assertive rather than needy, there's a difference between being honest in a calm way and dumping all your negative emotions on him. I think you handled that well.
I need to learn about that. Being assertive. Asking for what I need and not demanding it. Being open about how I feel without making the solution to my feelings someone else's problem or responsibility. I am spectacularly bad at all of that. I can see why H would be scared and wary about coming to the house to drop off Youngest after I'd said I was exhausted and feeling a bit resentful - I'm glad it worked out well, but it is only a small step.
He texted affectionately this morning and asked how I was feeling and did I get sleep. He reminded me he is going to come on Sunday morning for an hour to discuss the homework from the therapist, and also suggested a date on Monday.
Congratulations Alison, sounds like you are making progress. You go girl , sending all the universes good vibes yourway , keep going, you can do it !
Thanks so much. I know it's just a small step and I am not ready in myself and I don't think he's ready for anything else either. That feels okay today. I'm actually learning to value my time alone and I know there are more things I need to work on - regardless of what happens with my R - that it is better for me to work on outside of working on the R.
I am not sure how to tell when I am 'in piecing'. I don't think - knowing me as I am - that I can rely on H doing or saying something that would make me certain of that. I need to look inside myself. I don't think I am ready myself yet.
Think I understand. I am not going to offer any advice as I think you are being grounded and sensible . Keep going
I can't offer much advice on piecing other than what I have read here. Look for consistent behavior from your H, validate where you can and continue to focus on your 180's and GAL. Most of all keep your expectations of your H low. I suspect you are in piecing when you don't need to double think every action before you make it. You can just send a text, make a phone call etc without investing any energy or emotion into whether you should send the text/make the phone call.
This is a journey for him as much as for you and he too is trying to process a lot of emotions. He wants to make that journey with you but he is processing hurt and guilt and probably resentment. This does not mean give him a get out of jail free card for bad behavior, but just a side note to say be patient. So, there might be some pulling away, some distancing but be patient with this. He too is learning to trust again.
I do recall from your earlier posts your H could be abusive (mostly verbal if I remember correctly). This is not on. If you are to build a relationship 2.0 then it needs to start as it means to go on. Whilst patience is key to this, you need to also be able to respect yourself. And you can't do that with someone who doesn't show you respect. I appreciate you don't want to do anything would reduce the chances of reconciling, but you need to respect you. I would call him up on this now. Calmly but with authority. "I want to make this work, our M is worth saving, but I won't stand here whilst you speak like that".
Anyway, thanks for piping up on my sitch. I would love if my H called just to see how I was. He never does. All the calls are about the children. You are doing really well Alison.
I hope your date goes well.
((Hugs))
Thanks FS.
Yes - I have been working on my boundaries. He has been terribly verbally abusive to me - though not for a while now. In the early days of our separation I would ring him, upset, and he would shout at me and ridicule me, and I'd hang up, then ring him back, and it was bloody awful. Really awful. Now I don't call him for comfort when I am upset (and I am not that upset very often anyway) and on the rare occasion when he has been blaming or sarcastic or belittling, I've ended the conversation. I haven't yet had a conversation with him about his changes - I haven't said, 'if you want to work on this M then I need you to know there will be no more verbal abuse' - but I have lived the boundary rather than explaining it. It's easier to do as I don't see him that much. I am nowhere near ready to see him more than I do, nor to have that conversation with him.
There was one incident of him being violent towards me - about a year ago now. Never before nor since. I called the police at the time. He wasn't charged. I did try to talk about it with him in therapy later that summer, and his general response was that his violence was my fault because I'd made him angry. He seems a little less quick to anger this month than he has been previously, but I don't think I will feel safe living with him ever again until and unless he's willing to take total responsibility for his violent choice and let me know what changes he has made so it will never happen again. I don't know how to ask for that, and I don't know when the right time to ask for that would be.
At the moment I am just working on being cordial and having boundaries and working on my own changes. He's not putting on offer what I want for an R so I guess we are not in piecing.
Is he still verbally abusive towards you or is this all in the past?
The last time was the day before he moved out. He was drunk and said some mean and terrible things. I left the house with the children and stayed with a friend for two days. When I came back he was gone, and I immediately changed the locks. That was about three months ago. When he's been in the house with the kids I've asked him not to drink alcohol (he isn't an alcoholic, but he is a mean drunk) and he never has.
In the first couple of weeks after he moved out when I was contacting him a lot - he was hard and harsh and sarcastic and belittling towards me and often very cruel, but he hasn't been like that since then. And I suppose I was provoking him - phoning him often late at night, crying a lot, blaming him, etc etc. I don't do that at all any more.
We have had cross words since then - most recently a couple of weeks ago when I booked the week away - but I wouldn't say that was him being abusive, just that he was angry and assuming a lot about my motivations and I didn't like it and found it very difficult to deal with and became very upset afterwards.
I am not 100% certain he has ended his verbal abuse because he knows it is unacceptable, or because I've just stopped contacting him or raising subjects that bother him. When we had the family therapy session last week (on my last thread) I didn't like how he was communicating, but at the same time he wasn't mean or abusive and I do think he was doing his best. And he did come back afterwards and was much more constructive.
What I am afraid of is that he can't cope with the normal stresses of married life, including disagreements and stresses and normal tired moods and misunderstandings, without resorting to behaviour that is now totally unacceptable to me. I don't want to 'test' him - and I can see that he is being warmer with me, and more conciliatory, and there are small changes being made. But I am terrified of getting closer, letting him back home, then the first time we have a bad day being subject to that type of behaviour again and not knowing how to get out of it. I was so so so miserable and I felt so trapped and part of my lack of trust is, I think, very reasonable - he needs to take responsibility for that behaviour and work on his own changes, not rely on me or the children not provoking him.
Early days.
Sorry it's taken a while to respond. Life with kids
Verbal abuse can be more subtle than physical abuse. It is not always about name calling, it is not stamping their feet and beating their chest or yelling "YOU STUPID [censored]". It can be so much more subtle.
My H has never called me names. He knows better. He has never hit me. He knows I would not and would never have stood for that. Instead, he would say things like "YOU'RE being ridiculous", "YOU spent too much money on ... ", "WE are going to be late because YOU [did X, said Y]", "This [sofa, fridge, photo frame] YOU bought looks cheap", "YOU let the girls watch TOO MUCH TV".
Power, control and intimidation.
Watch for the signs. It is early days, and the stress of what is going on will make the need for control stronger. Don't test him, but tread carefully and just watch. If he is serious about doing the work, then you will see the changes. His behavior needs to be consistent over a long period of time.
The last time my H and I had an R conversation was back in October (after I saw him out on a date). There was no yelling. He was right to start dating (he had moved out for seven months) but he also should have been transparent about it. For the first time he was
almost apologetic. Guilt maybe. I don't know. During this conversation I said to him that even if he wanted to come home I would say no because he hadn't finished his journey. And I meant it. I love my H but I will not take him back until he has worked through his [censored].
Hi FS - this is good advice, thank you. I have no idea whether H is working on his own issues or not. Whether he's so focussed on his work he doesn't have time or whether it is bubbling away in the background as he works and spends time alone. I don't think he's in IC and I'd be gobsmacked if it was, but there are other ways to work on issues, I know. I guess my feeling is that I need to respect his boundaries, not ask him intrusive questions about himself, not start an R talk, and just be observant and focussed on my own stuff.
Anyway - I want to focus on my GAL in this post. I've come to the end of a hard piece of work. Tonight I am going out to the next city with Eldest and we're going to celebrate and stay overnight in a hotel. In the morning we're coming back and collecting Youngest then collecting our new dog. We're all really excited about it and have been counting the days for a good while now. I think our hands will be full but I'm hoping it will be a really positive piece of joy for the children and me. It's interesting- while we've been researching dog training methods we've already (me and the kids, that is) had so many positive conversations about encouragement, punishment, deterrent, criticism etc. I notice a change in the way we all speak to each other, even though that wasn't my intention when we started looking into force-free gentle and positive dog training methods.
enjoy the new dog, Alison
And have fun celebrating!
Just journalling:
I had a couple of conversations with H yesterday. We started off by talking about the childcare arrangements. He wants me to take both kids for most of every weekend from now until his project is over. I can understand that and I want to help him. I got a bit upset on the phone - I think I was just tired and sad and at a low point - but I wasn't blaming or needed and he was very understanding and kind about it. We ended up having a good talk. He said he could see the changes I was making and he was proud of me. I said I could see he was doing his best too. I said I felt angry. He said he found that really scary. I said I wasn't angry at him anymore, just at the situation and where we'd got ourselves to and how hard it was on us all. He said he really wanted to find a way to make it work, but he just felt so tired and depleted and anxious about this project that he didn't have much to offer. I validated that, and he was very validating towards me, and we left it at that. He's been good since at sending encouraging and affectionate text messages.
We have the meeting tomorrow arranged to talk over boundaries and house rules and consequences for the kids. I sent over an outline of what I thought last week. He responded with a list of complaints about it. I took a deep breath and tried to see it as anxiety and worry rather than more moaning and criticism, and I said, 'I want to compromise with you and find an agreement. I want you to feel your needs are being met by this. It would help if you could tell me what specific suggestions for changes you have on the areas that you don't feel good about right now.' That felt like a 180 for me - responding assertively - and also requires a 180 from him in coming up with some suggestions and requests of his own rather than just tearing mine down.
I'm a bit nervous about the meeting tomorrow. We've put a time limit on it so it doesn't take up the whole morning - we both have other things planned. I feel a bit hopeful and a bit sad too. But I had a great time with the kids so far this weekend, and have more GAL planned tomorrow and the puppy is here! I bought myself a pretty extravagant Mother's Day present for tomorrow (out of my own money, not family funds) in case H forgets about it, and because I wanted something nice and I deserve it.
Well done, for all of that. For the honest conversations (well done for both of you actually), for the assertiveness, and for the big mother's day present (darn, I forgot that, although the best Christmas present I got from the kids (actually the first in ages last year) was a pack of Blu Tac and a mini Christmas tree for a project, very thoughtful!))
It sounds like you had a very productive talk, that was most courageous of you (and actually pretty good for him too, giving him a positive assessment there too for him being courageous as well, I would like dh and I to get to this place as well...)
Yes, you do deserve it, especially if you have to take over sole parenting for a month or so!
The parenting isn't the hard bit, not really. I've been thinking about that a lot. My kids are old enough to be reasonably self sufficient, they aren't fussy about eating and sleeping, and they're really good about helping around the house. They bicker and I get a bit of attitude now and again, but it is within the realms of normal. And I'm in my quietest time of the year for work, and will be for the next couple of months, so I can basically be a SAHM with some skype meetings and remote working here and there and that is all okay. So it isn't the work - and if we were together it would be reasonable for me to do all the domestic stuff while he finishes this project. It's the sense that I am acting like a wife - picking up his half of the childcare - rather than a co-parent - and doing that while he's not able to act like a husband. It makes me feel very vulnerable. But I did manage to express that to him earlier this week and he's been much more present and warm and validating towards me since then. Not hearts and flowers exactly, but just acting like I'm someone on his side rather than the hired help he resents. That feels better. It does mean I miss him a bit more though, and I feel sad in a way I haven't done for a while.
Ha, I used to sometimes say that dh expected me to be an unpaid PA and cleaner who gave him sex occasionally, it is not nice to be taken for granted is it? Though dh did it partly as a response to me taking him for granted and resenting him for not being home. Dh has taken more of an interest in domestic matters though and realises a lot more all the tiny millions of things I do to run our homes (I think). I have a few unresolved issues about feminism and being a housewife and my upbringing and my MIL's expectations which she passed onto dh. These things are structural as well as personal...
That's kind of understandable that you might feel sad about that. That's ok I think, if you're sad then it's harder to be angry and resentful at him perhaps? It's good that you're both on the same side, I think that's necessary no matter what, but if you're going to R then you have to have that.
If I'm honest with myself, it's been more the other way around for most of my marriage. I've always earned more, worked longer hours, travelled more with my work. He's always done more in the house, and taken the lead in arranging family time and activities and holidays. I took him for granted, but I also felt that in the times when I did try to make things more even, he would be so critical of how I did things, or how I parented, that it felt easier just to step back. So this separation has re-set things in the house, in that I am doing everything as I see fit and nothing has fallen apart or broken and he can see that all the domestic stuff is entirely within my capabilities and I don't need managing, and I'm in the position where I'm having to take a more supporting role to him and his work, which is very different too. It still feels lopsided - and he did acknowledge that - but I hope that in the future there will be some kind of balance. I don't want to get my hopes up on that. And at least I know that if we decided to divorce, I can financially and domestically look after everything on my own if needed.
Well maybe your husband felt unappreciated too? I can see that you feel tired and resentful at having the lion's share of domestic stuff to be responsible for, maybe that's how he felt too for years but expressed it badly? If both partners feel unappreciated it turns into all sorts of bad behaviour from both parties. Maybe he did want you to take more responsibility but then felt undermined when you tried to instead of supported?
An example: I've always been interested in gardening, I've built up a lot of knowledge of different plants and all sorts over the years and spend lots of time gardening, not necessarily for pleasure but because it's nice to have beautiful plants to look at (I do enjoy being outdoors but I feel a lot of pressure trying to fit it in along with all the other stuff in life which keeps me busy).
So last year we had a garden project which needed doing, dh comes to the garden centre, picks some plants which frankly I think are ugly or won't work and dismisses everything I say. I felt criticised and like he was invading my territory and like he was belittling all my experience. Now he looks at some bulbs in a planter and says 'I planted those didn't I?'
Maybe I should have been more encouraging of his interest, offered more gentle guidance instead of being 'the expert' and understood his wish to do more gardening as expressing an interest in things domestic instead of him rudely barging in on my turf. I mean I don't think he's suddenly going to develop a passion for plants but at least I could give him the benefit of the doubt! Perhaps there was a similar dynamic operating with you and your husband? In any case, both of you seeing what it was like for the other person means you can understand each other better, which must be a good thing. Maybe you could express some appreciation to your husband of all the domestic stuff he used to do? Because it's a lot less visible than work or money, and a lot less recognised by our society too.
Updating.
Things seem very positive. The conversation yesterday about boundaries and house rules went well. He said to start with he felt nervous it was just going to turn into an argument, and I said I wanted to compromise with him and hear what changes he wanted to make, and we were able to come to an agreement pretty easily. We presented it to the kids together, and that worked well too. I had a nice afternoon with family.
In the evening, Eldest really really began pushing the boundaries - he was as challenging as I've ever seen him be. It was very difficult. Family therapist warned me that might happen. I do find it really really hard to deal with his anger. I gave the consequences that we had agreed, and that seemed to escalate the temper further. In the end I was so stressed and upset I rang H who came around to get Youngest bathed and in bed while I dealt with Eldest. I could see he was nervous to be there when I was upset and Eldest was being awful - it's such a difficult time and in the past had triggered some of our worst arguments - but I did stick to what we'd agreed would happen and he was glad about that, and I was glad about it too - and wasn't doing it only to please him but because I think firm boundaries and a united front from both parents is what Eldest needs. i think it was important for me to deal with Eldest too - and I felt H was supporting me in doing that. I can see I've been so conflict-avoidant I've let Eldest get away with a lot of disrespectful behaviour towards myself and H and it has made H feel terrible, so this felt like a good change.
Eldest came and apologised after a couple of hours. I asked him to apologise to H too, which he did, in the end, though the consequences are still going to stand as per our agreement. Eldest went to bed and H and I talked for a while about this - about what a difference it was, and about how he found it scary to be around me when Eldest was upset, and I found conflict terrifying. It was a good, non-blaming conversation. H said we'd been stuck in a pattern - he felt like how he felt and what he wanted didn't matter so long as everything was quiet, and I felt like no matter what I did it was never good enough. I validated him and he validated me, which was good too.
We're going out together as a family tonight for a school event. I don't know what all this means for our R but I am so glad and relieved to be getting on to the same page re parenting because so much of our conflict was about that. No matter what happens, that makes my life a bit better and, more importantly, I think is good for both kids.
Dilly - thanks for that. Yes, I think we've both felt really really really unappreciated for a very long time. Him for his domestic work and his efforts with the kids, and me for bringing in the money and organising finances and house etc. I wonder if the gender-reversal might have played into it a bit? I think as we both felt less appreciated we both got more polarised - he became more and more controlling about kids and domestic stuff, and I just resentfully withdrew, and I felt more and more resentful about being the breadwinner, and buried myself in work because it was rewarding in a way that family relationships had not been.
One thing this separation has done so far is give me a renewed appreciation for all the domestic work - the mental load - that running a house on your own involves (though I am working still too this is a quieter time of year for me) and this focus on his own career and the urgency of this massive deadline has, I hope, given H something for himself, outside the family, to have for himself - but also maybe given him a bit of insight into what my life was like too. Who knows? Being apart is still very painful at times, but most days are okay and relations seem fairly cordial most of the time over the past couple of weeks. I can see there's been benefits to this separation.
That all sounds very positive, I know family dynamics have been a huge part of the problems between you and your husband. It also sounds like you handled both eldest and your husband really well, even in the midst of some behaviour which must have been scary to you. Sounds like family therapy has been useful already perhaps? Well done, I think you should be proud of yourself. I aspire to behaving like a grownup with my husband the way you have been with yours lately
It went well at the event last night. Cordial. Youngest was playing up a bit, and H took charge of it and took him home early, and had also brought a gift to make Eldest's achievement. It felt so nice us all being together in the house. I was sad when he went home. I think I got a bit needy and clingy - I asked him to tell me exactly what he meant when he said he wanted to 'work on things' when his project was done, and he was a bit impatient about that (it was late and he was tired and wanted to go and sleep).
I think seeing him more, and more cordially, and seeming to make progress, makes me feel MORE vulnerable in some ways. And that makes me take the attention of myself and my own GAL and 180s and put it on him, and wanting assurances and change from him to make me feel content and safe. I need to watch for that.
I can relate exactly to that, to having hope for the future and jumping ahead to how things might look. It's a bit of a trap isn't it? And then if things don't keep moving in the right direction then you feel much more upset because your hopes are up. And then sometimes you undo your good work in making you both feel safe by asking for too much too soon. This has been my story so far. Sigh. It's so very hard not to have expectations though: us humans are behaviour prediction machines.
I don't know what to advise, because I'm stuck in this place right now myself. If you find out, let me know lol. Maybe it's something I will discuss with my IC later.
Hard morning. Eldest was behaving abysmally. I put in the consequences we'd agreed and obviously he got angry and escalated his behaviour. I rang H after he'd gone off to school - mainly because I wanted his support. He was reasonably supportive, but also pretty critical (well he's like this because you've never given him proper boundaries, if Id have been allowed to parent as I saw fit he'd be too scared to act like that...) and that was hard. We didn't argue, and I spoke up for myself, but it didn't feel good.
I get that he feels resentful that he's thought I should have been firmer all along, that caused problems with us, and now I have come to his way of thinking and am making a change and want his support, he is annoyed about that. I validated that. I also feel he's still not considering at all any changes he might need to make in order that we can co-parent together - laying off criticising me and finding fault when Eldest doesn't behave well would be a start. Stopping the blaming and the point scoring would help too. I've asked for that, the family therapist said it needed to happen, and he still can't stop. It still feels very one way and I resent that.
I get I rang him at a bad time and I get he isn't ready to be as supportive as I want him to be, but I am so tired of being left with the dirty work then being criticised when I'm not up to standard.
I am exhausted and it is only half nine.
That sounds really hard, and definitely exhausting!
OK, how would this be:
'I'm sorry if I'm ringing you at a bad time, let me know if it's really terrible timing and you can ring me back. I just really need to vent right now, I had such a bad time with eldest this morning and I feel terrible. Please don't criticise because I know I haven't been a perfect parent. I just need to tell you what happened and have you listen'
You are entitled to ask for support without him criticising, but also perhaps you could see his criticism here as being in Mr Fixit mode? Sometimes I complain to my dh and he says 'I don't know what to suggest' or 'I can't fix your hormones' but then suggests going to the doctor. So instead of seeing the criticism as attack, see it as your husband not knowing what he needs to do? Plus some bad old habits from both of you (him criticising, you feeling attacked)
Yeah, I think you're right. I did start off by asking him if now was a bad time, and I also said, 'I'm just having a horrific morning and I need a pep talk,' but he was totally exhausted (he was coming off a twelve hour night shift and it was the first one this week so he won't have slept much the day before to prepare for it) and I know he felt me saying something along the lines of 'I am exhausted having to lay down these consequences and take the brunt of his anger on my own' to be an implicit criticism of him not being here - and he still feels like he was kicked out rather than he left, so it's all very tangled.
I did manage to stand up for myself a bit though. He went on a tiny rant about how Eldest seems to think he has an anger management problem that that means he never took his attempts to discipline him seriously, and that I should have backed him up there. And I said he had a point, there were many many occasions where I should have backed him up and I didn't, and that's part of the reason we are were we are today. But that his anger was a problem in his relationship with me and with Eldest and I couldn't take responsibility for fixing that. He didn't challenge me there or disagree with me, and I didn't feel afraid of saying it, so that feels like progress.
I guess we're both just super reactive around the idea of the other finding fault with them. There was no shouting or sarcasm or name-calling though. He wasn't remotely verbally abusive, not even sarcastic - he was just exasperated and less warm than I'd have preferred. It was a hard conversation but I hope it hasn't set things back.
I guess the 180 I need to make here is to perhaps not expect much in the way of emotional support at the moment. The right thing to do with Eldest is the right thing, no matter how Eldest responds or how H is able to back me up or not. I need to do it because it's the right thing, and not to get H's approval or affirmation. I need to check in with him as a parent but be mindful of timing. I also need to continue to refuse to accept blame and point scoring and criticism, which means asking clearly for the positive thing that I want.
And I think I do need some more emotional support with this, so I am going to see if I can see my friend this afternoon.
Bad timing is my speciality, so I know what you mean. I have dumped my negative stuff on dh before at a really bad time of day or year when he has felt utterly exhausted and unable to cope with it, and it has never ended well! It does sound like your husband was trying his best under difficult circumstances, and also that you were all upset and probably not able to ask for support in the most assertive way possible. Maybe you could rehearse a few different ways of asking for what you need? Or maybe you could just text him a short complaint about your tough morning, making it clear you just want a there there and not a long conversation about it? Getting into details seems like a bad idea when you're both in a bad place...
I hope your chat with your friend helps xx
I think I do need to be more resilient and take charge a bit more. I have had a tendency to run crying to H when things are hard, and he probably felt like that, even though that's not what I was after.
For 180s - I've made an appointment with Eldest's Head of House at school to discuss behaviour at home. His behaviour at school is absolutely exemplary, and part of me thinks he will be mortified if his teacher hears how he's been speaking to and treating his parents - and that might be enough, for the time being, to make him think twice. But there's also a couple of sports residentials coming in the next couple of months and I want the school's support that he won't be attending them unless behaviour at home improves.
I really don't think there's a problem in running to your husband when you need comfort, as long as you understand that's what you're asking for and he understands how to give it and how not to criticise or try to fix things in giving it. But right now getting comfort from our husbands is more difficult because of the lack of safety. Well, that's how I see it anyway. I think I never asked for comfort before and tended to run off to friends first because I thought he couldn't or wouldn't give it to me, it's taking time to work out how to ask for it and I often mess it up.
That sounds useful about eldest. I would just be careful about implied punishment because nobody responds well to it let alone teenagers. Maybe framing it as 'if I can't trust you to behave at home then I can't trust you to behave in an unusual environment like a residential, show me I can trust you' might work? I can't help that much I'm afraid, my older teen just went super quiet and shut us out at 14 (not sure he's ever really come back), my just 14 year old now has a tendency towards perfectionism and turning stuff inwards (I found evidence of potential self harm about 18 months ago, before this dh stuff ever happened) but both of them have always been pretty well behaved at home and at school. Ds2 has occasional temper tantrums and will occasionally need a lot of persuading to do stuff but is generally quite sweet for a teen. In fact his behaviour has probably been better since dh left, dh made for a lot of tension and slamming doors and everyone having to tiptoe about at home. Ds2 still says he's glad dh got his flat as he's managed to be nice to his family for once over winter...
I think that's the problem - he just can't seem to help himself when it comes to blame (well, we're only in this position because of X, Y, Z) or criticism. I'm probably over sensitive to it. But when I have really clearly asked him for encouragement or comfort, and given him examples of what I would like, he then accuses me of controlling him and attempting to police what he's allowed to say. It all gets really really reactive when it comes down to Eldest because we both feel so strongly about it.
Meeting with school went well. And yes - I agree with you about avoiding punishment and that's the advice I am getting from family therapist and from school too. Clear expectations, consistent consequences and boundaries. H has always been a bigger fan of punishment and old school methods and has felt unsupported when I've disagreed, but we do have a working plan now so at least there's that.
I texted H to say I was sorry for my part in things going wrong in our last conversation. He said he was sorry too, and was feeling overwhelmed and unappreciated. That is new. I am totally done in.
I think that's the problem - he just can't seem to help himself when it comes to blame (well, we're only in this position because of X, Y, Z) or criticism. I'm probably over sensitive to it. But when I have really clearly asked him for encouragement or comfort, and given him examples of what I would like, he then accuses me of controlling him and attempting to police what he's allowed to say. It all gets really really reactive when it comes down to Eldest because we both feel so strongly about it.
This sounds like a perfect place to calmly and firmly say “ when you say this it makes me feel (what you feel)“ I am not very good at mine reading how that made you feel
with regards to eldest how do you think you can get to a point where you support each other in your aims? This seems to be a big one for you ? Is that correct?
Why is it you feel done in ?
I think because it just feels like more of the same, TryHard.
Quite often when I turn to my H for support or comfort or parenting collaboration his response is to tell me why my problem or distress is of my own making and my own fault. It isn't like he's gloating - but I do think he finds meeting my emotional needs (or even the prospect of being asked to) terrifying and it is a technique he uses to push me away. I've been hurt over and over and over again by that and I don't want more of the same. I can control that by not asking him for any kind of emotional support, but I don't want a marriage like that. I am so weary of his blame and criticism and the way he can get really very nasty when challenged about it.
I've been working on being very helpful and supportive to him this past couple of weeks. He's doing shift work and I've cooked meals for him and frozen them in individual portions and baked snacks and given them all to him. He was happy enough to accept that. I was happy to give it. But when there's so little coming back it feels very much like I am feeding him cake - literally!
I want a relationship where I can turn to him and he will say some version of 'you're not on your own. We've got this. It's going to be okay,' rather than 'ah, here is why your problem is your own fault and I get to be angry with you for even wanting comfort!' and that isn't on offer from him. I'm not sure he's even capable of it, to be honest.
I think I am pretty well covered in that I know I've communicated what I need very clearly and in non-blaming language. I know I've also worked on taking care of my own emotional needs so the requests I make of him are really not that much at all. I admit there was bad timing at play in my last request - but I didn't get to opt out of Eldest screaming and throwing things all morning and that was bad timing for me too - him being emotionally unavailable feels like a luxury choice he is using to punish me. And I've lived with that for years and I will not tolerate it any longer.
So that's why I am done in. Exhausted and tired and disappointed and about ready to throw in the towel. He does pretty much no childcare right now, I carry us all financially, and he's not able to be pleasant when I am distressed after laying down the law with one of his children. I am left wondering what he's actually for and what he adds to my life.
Careful Alison, I spy the Self Pity Monster in there. Having had a recent attack I can tell you it passes...Sometimes all we can do is work on our end, say what we need and hope they come along for the ride. You have had plenty of positive signs, and it's a lot to expect your husband to change when he's under lots of stress. He *has* shown small signs of change and you need to be optimistic about that instead of circling back into your pessimistic, resentful state where you think things will never change. Stay patient (it is sooooooo hard), look after yourself, take that puppy of yours out for a walk and tomorrow you'll feel better about things. I hope eldest is easier for you today (())
Thanks Dilly. I do feel sorry for myself today. It's too much to expect he breaks the habit of years in a couple of months, and that he's able to keep that up during a really busy period. I get that. I am just so tired and flat today. Eldest is away for a few days now on a school trip to Paris. I will miss him - but I am going to appreciate being able to take the time to concentrate on Youngest, and have evenings to myself as Youngest goes to bed earlier.
I am amazed at how open and honest with loads of understanding thrown in Alison. Big hugs from me . It’s a hard battle but you can do it I’m sure !
Thanks Tryhard.
I am seeing H a fair bit over the next few days - and I've decided just to keep it as pleasant and light as I can. Be supportive where I can, and take care of my own needs where I can't. He's exhausted and anxious and so much of our interaction is either awkward and wary and frightened - on both sides - or 'here's where I need you to do better' - on both sides - or 'here's how distressed I am about something' (on my side). Not that there can't be room for that in any R, but we're not R, we're cordially separated pending a discussion - and for the time being perhaps it would be better just to enjoy each other's company a bit if possible, and create a positive environment for the kids if not.
I know what happens - we are in each other's company and I feel like I am being kind and happy and supportive, and demonstrating in small, non-pressure ways that his stress is on my mind and I am looking to care for him in some way - and that all seems to work well - but after a while (hours or days depending on my mood and what else is going on) I just feel like nothing's coming back, which makes me feel resentful, which makes me feel vulnerable and like he's taking advantage of me, and I either express that, or I ask him for something, which seems to trigger all kinds of resentment in him. It's really hard. I guess I have to have no expectations, be kind without chasing, and take care of myself. I can protect myself because I'm not living with him and I won't live with him unless he is also willing to give to the relationship, but for the time being, I can be kind to the father of my children who is suffering a bit right now. I hope I can do it without expectation.
That sounds like a mature response. It isn’t fair., but someone has to change or nothing will alter in the situation. Take any pressure off and just focus on enjoying his company. Patience and compassion for h. It’s not for him it’s for you . You can do it Alison. If I can help in anyway, let me know , you have people cheering for you , turn the ordeal into a positive experience
Having no expectations or low expectations is soooooo hard though. I also find it hard empathising with someone who has their walls up against you too, I so want to understand and have compassion for my dh but when I feel shut out I feel rejected instead and then it's back to being about me instead of him. Then it's self protection mode. It's certainly difficult to have empathy for someone who has the power to hurt you. I don't know whether any of that resonates? I also don't know how best to move forward, maybe with as much kindness to both yourself and him as possible.
Just journalling.
That was really hard, though I feel steadier than I would have done after an experience like this a few weeks ago.
So - H came on Friday to be in the house for the puppy and Youngest while I was at work - Youngest finished early for easter vacation. H had just come off his night shift and hadn't slept much. He arrived while I was still at home, about lunch time, and we had a small talk. I was upset - I don't know why - and it would have been better for me just to get to work and leave him to it, but I really wanted some reassurance that he was actually okay with being in the house and wasn't just going to throw it back in my face after a few hours. He's a tendency to do that - I think we're having a nice time, or we're close, or we've had a good conversation or a quiet time together - and he agrees (I have texts saying he was looking forward to spending time with me this weekend, for example) then a day or a few hours later he will say he hated it, never wanted to do it in the first place, was forced to do it, etc etc. It's destroyed my trust and self esteem and I had that in mind when I was upset. I cried a bit. I saw that mean streak in him again, which was scary, but we both managed to get it together, have a hug. He said he really wanted to have his family back, to come and work on things, to support me and be supported by me. He said he needed to get to the end of this project and then he'd have the time and space to devote to cherishing me and our family and 'intensively working on things' and he said for him, working on things would involve owning his own stuff and speaking up for his own needs. We had another hug and things seemed fine when I got back from work.
I cooked, we ate, he seemed happy enough. He slept over - in my / our bed. He was affectionate but exhausted and it was just that - sleep. I was up early the next morning to take the dog out, cooked breakfast for everyone then went out to GAL in the AM. The plan was that H would go out in the afternoon - for GAL or rest or whatever he wanted - but he actually arranged one of Youngest's friends to come over on a playdate. I said I was happy to supervise the playdate so he could leave, or take the kids out somewhere so he could be in the house alone and rest - but he didn't want either of those things. So I cooked again, and he mowed the lawn and played with the kids and sorted out the garden. I could see he was totally exhausted - he'd not really managed to sleep much during the day so was pretty deranged by Saturday evening. I partly enjoyed having him around - it was a real dose of normality, just being there and doing ordinary things - and partly feeling very insecure and tearful and upset and running around cooking and making sure the dog didn't bother him and he didn't have to do anything, then feeling resentful for being so anxious and servile, and trying to keep all of that secret and undetectable was totally exhausting.
Once Youngest was in bed he started ranting - not shouting, exactly, but speaking at me in a really harsh and blaming and cruel way. Apparently I'd ruined his weekend. He didn't need me cooking for him, all he needed was sleep and space and I never let him have any of that. I suggested he go home if he felt like that, and he said he couldn't because of how I would respond. I said you're assuming a lot there. He was sitting on the edge of the bed and I went over and hugged him and said, 'You're panicking. And you're going to be okay. You need rest and you're going to be fine,' and he was like a stone. In the end he did leave, and I was upset and he could tell but I didn't make a bit deal out of it or call him up or anything.
I think I probably was looking after him too much, and it wasn't freely given because he knew I wanted him to be happy in the house so he'd come back, and he knew I was looking for reassurance, and it made him feel pressured and upset. And I also think he's half mad from stress and lack of sleep and perhaps he wishes he could cope with normal family life at the moment and he can't, and rather than just admit that, and be vulnerable enough to let me help him (by taking over the play date, for example) it's easier for him to get nasty and blame me. He said he'd been forced to arrange the play date because I never did anything for Youngest. Which is just factually, stupidly untrue and not a matter of perception, and he knows that. I didn't even bother arguing with it.
I am sad this morning. I know a lot of this is my stuff - the not giving care freely but using it to get affection or care from him that he just can't give. And I know a lot of it is his stuff - the dishonesty and the blame and the lack of capacity right now. And while I am steadier this morning than I have been in times past, and not as devastated or terrified or rejected feeling, I am thinking that it was pretty much more of the same - me trying to please him, him getting resentful about it and not really wanting what I have to offer and not being able to offer very much at all himself. And I miss him. I feel sad and at night time sometimes I feel lonely and I want my family life back, and my husband back - not this cold, resentful, blaming, absent monster. He is about a month away from this project ending, and it is not an excuse - it is totally once in a life time extraordinary circumstances. And he doesn't trust but seems to resent my attempts at support, and there's nothing I can do but try to take what he says at face value and take care of myself until this time is over then we can see what things look like.
But I am just very very very sad. I have GAL plans for today. He was going to do something for me tonight (collecting Eldest from his school trip) which would involve him being out of bed late, so I've made another arrangement so he doesn't need to do that. I'll text him and tell him later when I can be sure the text won't wake him up. I know I will feel better once I get up and going but today I just feel really lonely and like I want to be held.
Gosh, that sounds very hard, maybe for both of you. Have a big virtual hug (())
Positives:
he wanted to spend time with you and as a family
he's expressing willingness to work on his own stuff
you had some positive interactions in there along with the scary stuff
you repaired ok a few times by the sound of it
It sounds like it might have been too much for both of you to have so much time together, especially when he is so exhausted.
Things will get better, I have a lot of hope for you! Hang in there, look after yourself and be patient x
Having no expectations or low expectations is soooooo hard though. I also find it hard empathising with someone who has their walls up against you too, I so want to understand and have compassion for my dh but when I feel shut out I feel rejected instead and then it's back to being about me instead of him. Then it's self protection mode. It's certainly difficult to have empathy for someone who has the power to hurt you. I don't know whether any of that resonates? I also don't know how best to move forward, maybe with as much kindness to both yourself and him as possible.
And yes, all of this totally resonates. I feel so totally vulnerable trying to emphathise with someone who seems to massively resent me and still want contact with me. Whenever I offer kindness, I risk rejection and it just really really hurts right now. And yet he does seem to want kindness, at least sometimes. I don't know how to move forward. I'm not sure I can go into caring for him without expectations or without being in self protective mode right now, and he can clearly sense both my expectations or my fear and vulnerability, and both seem to anger him. I guess he just needs his life to be entirely about him and his own needs right now. And I can understand that. I wonder if the right thing to do is just to take a massive massive step back - do things by the DB book - until his project is over and he has some capacity to respond. I am just so afraid and I can't seem to get past that. Something he said on Friday afternoon which really hurt was, 'the thing is, I just don't have time to manage a divorce right now,' which reminded me of something he said in January - that he was offering some kindness and continued connection until the end of his project because he wanted to 'buy time' and placate me until he had time to do a divorce. I am really really terrified of showing care and empathy if that's secretly what his plan or intention is. He has more consistently said the opposite. But my fear is there and it totally controls my decisions some days.
If he was planning to divorce you, he would NOT be talking about wanting to get back together and about working on his own issues. But that fear of abandonment is hard (impossible?) to shake sometimes.
Maybe you could discuss with him whether you both need a bit of a break while he's still got this deadline? Maybe you could suggest you just have a short meeting for coffee once a week or something? It really sounds like he's not in the best place to be the husband you need and deserve right now, and he probably knows that too. But you should probably stay connected in some small way, don't go completely dark or NC I think.
Maybe true love is giving him kindness and empathy even though he can't respond right now? Maybe true love looks like forgiving his current behaviour knowing he's not in a place to do anything else? Maybe true love is putting your needs on the back burner for a little longer and putting him first? You have a deadline at least, you couldn't do it forever but it sounds like your marriage right now needs you to put his needs first for just a few more weeks.
I know that fear, it's very, very hard to feel like you might ultimately be rejected and abandoned, but don't reject him first because of that fear.
I think that's where I am at. I want to be unselfish and I can see - plain as anything - that he's not himself. He was paying for something at one of those self-checkins on Saturday evening and he couldn't work the machine - it was like he was drunk. It's the shift work, and the writing work he needs to do (he's a med student in the midst of placement and finals) and he's just not managing the sleep deprivation. And I want to be kind to him. I really do. And I am so, so, so afraid that being kind means leaving him alone, and making peace with not having my needs met, and holding my breath and hoping that things will be different when I've hoped for that for so long.
But I don't have much choice. I could set in motion a divorce, but that will change nothing at all about my day to day life right now.
Hi Alison
I'm going to be blunt. I've read the last couple of threads and you're smothering him. I also think you have the patience of a saint because I would probably have literally smothered him by now!!
If you are deciding to stand for this marriage then you have to accept that you are not going to get the reassurances that you crave. Yet. He has asked you for time, without pressure and without expectation. You did both this weekend. You want it to be perfect when he's there, you're bothered that he's going to throw it back in your face etc etc. You're looking after him too much, walking on eggshells and he feels that pressure and expectation. Stop hovering and leave him be.
He has stated his intention that once his work pressures are over he wants to work hard at it. If you choose to believe him then you have to stand back and wait. Be patient and take the pressure off you both.
You talk about having your needs met. Have a think about those needs. I don't know what they are, but are they needs that can only be met by him, or could they / should they be met from within yourself?
I think you're right, Yorkie. I know a lot of what I am offering as support he is experiencing as pursuit. And that matters.
A weird day yesterday. He rang in the morning and asked if he could come over for breakfast and spend the day with his family. I said yes, and he turned up looking awful. I was in the kitchen and he came in and gave me a hug and we just carried on as if the night before hadn't happened. I gave him space and just got on with my life, and he seemed to want to be here resting and recovering. He'd have had more peace at home (I can stop smothering him, but I can't do anything about a puppy and the kids) but he seemed to really want to just be here. I left him to it mainly. It was comforting to me too, him being around. Sad when he left. But the more often I see him, the more I can see how utterly drained he is and how a lot of what is going on with him has nothing to do with me our our M. It does mean he has nothing in reserve to fix our R - and I do get that.
I need to think about my own needs more, I guess. Think about meeting them myself in some way. I am bad at that. And it's necessary.
Thank you for your bluntness Yorkie. Always welcome
I am thinking that it was pretty much more of the same - me trying to please him, him getting resentful about it and not really wanting what I have to offer and not being able to offer very much at all himself.
This seems to be a repeating pattern. Alison, this is classic cake-eating. As long as you allow it, it will continue to happen. I understand you are getting a temporary high from having him over, but you really need to ask yourself if it's worth it. Because as long as you keep letting it happen, you will be stuck in limbo. Your sitch will never get better.
And I miss him. I feel sad and at night time sometimes I feel lonely and I want my family life back, and my husband back - not this cold, resentful, blaming, absent monster.
When you let the monster cake-eat, you feed it and it grows. Starve the monster (stop the cake-eating) and your H may start pushing the monster back out of his body.
And he doesn't trust but seems to resent my attempts at support
He absolutely does. So why do you keep doing it? Do you remember the chapter in DR about "cheeseless tunnels"? And about setting up lawn chairs? Well you've got a sofa, recliner, rug, reading light, fridge and a flat-screen TV set up in front of that cheeseless tunnel.
But I am just very very very sad.
Detach. GAL. Move on. Your mood should not be predicated on how the monster treats you.
I just feel really lonely and like I want to be held.
I'm sorry you're feeling down. Go see a friend or family member and get that hug. NOT your H though, do NOT try to get hugs there.
That sounds a better day Alison.
I must say though that worrying about the kids and the puppy not giving him peace is also a bit smothering. He chose to come, he knows the kids are there and the puppy and yet he still chose to come.
Try to relax and don't try to control the environment. If he wanted peace and quiet then he's a grown man, he can go and find it away from your vibrant household.
If you wind yourself up so tightly in trying to control every situation then every little thing that happens in normal family life has a high probability of tipping you over the edge.
Live your life. Be Alison. Be confident, not this person who walks on eggshells worrying about his every furrowed brow.
It sounds like the Sunday was a much better day, low pressure for both of you. It's nice that he wanted to relax at home, I wish my dh did but it seems like that's impossible (not sure he relaxes ever unless he's drunk anyway though). Keep your expectations as low as you can. How is your new puppy?
Another Stander said:
I understand you are getting a temporary high from having him over, but you really need to ask yourself if it's worth it. Because as long as you keep letting it happen, you will be stuck in limbo. Your sitch will never get better.
And yes - that is my fear, it really is. But I don't think I will be stuck in limbo. He's asking me for pressure off during a very clearly defined amount of time, and when that time period is over, I think I will reassess then and maybe make a different decision. I am working on being supportive without pursuing, because I have pursued hard for my own needs to be met at the expense of his, and have been spectacularly un-supportive. It's a balacing act I am often getting really wrong - I admit that - but for the next few weeks (and that is all it is) I want to try. He didn't really BD me, I BDed him - and he's telling me he can't work on things now, but he wants to at a particular point. He has been consistent about that, and most of the other things he's said has been in response to my pushing at him for more. If I stop pushing, watch carefully and see that when the point comes and he isn't talking about R, my only choice will be to go dark, and that is what I plan to do.
Yorkie said:
I must say though that worrying about the kids and the puppy not giving him peace is also a bit smothering. He chose to come, he knows the kids are there and the puppy and yet he still chose to come.
Yes, you're right about this. I actually went out for a while on Sunday on my own, then took Youngest out (as planned) for an activity just the two of us. So I didn't bring it up - but I did have this sense that both me myself and family life was being 'auditioned' in some way. He didn't say or do anything in particular that triggered that in me - it was in my mind - and I need to get away from that and just have my happy family life as I want it and let him speak up for what he wants, join in, or go away - as he wishes. It went okay but there is more work to do here because I cannot live my life as if I am advertising a family for him to be a part of at some point, it is unhealthy and exhausting.
Dillydaff said:
It's nice that he wanted to relax at home
Yes, I think it was too, in the end. It probably is cake-eating, a little bit. But what it looked like from the outside was someone broken and exhausted, stressed and anxious wanting a bit of rest and familiarity and a break from his professional stress. He looked like a little boy. There was no meanness or coldness in him on that day. I didn't wait on him hand and foot and went about my life as normally as I could, and yes, I need to keep my expectations low. But if we are to R than home does need to be a sanctuary for both of us and I think in many ways I am in a much better place than he is at the moment and doing a little bit to make home a sanctuary (and all I did was put some food on the table, give him a hug and ask no questions) does constitute a 180 going on my past behaviour.
I feel okay today. Am working and as it is vacation time he is in charge of Youngest. Had a couple of texts already about things he's irritated about. He doesn't seem to have much patience at the moment. I am validating, but not leaping in to do his parenting, offer advice or criticism or fix things. The kids have two weeks off and he's doing two days of childcare, that's it - so I am going to respect and trust him enough to do that without interference or assistance from me.
'Advertising your family' sounds like maybe your stuff there, not his...?
Yes, I think you're right. He certainly didn't have the air of someone who was turning up to sample the goods with a view to considering making a future purchase! He was too broken and done in for that. It is my stuff. And the changes I've made to my parenting - both in the new boundaries with the kids, and with having more fun at the weekends, getting outside more together and less time on screens - more structure and positivity - all of that I want to do for myself and the children. They were my personal 180s and what I wanted to spend my energy on rather than working on my marriage.
They sound like really positive changes for you and your kids. I hope he'll be on board with them too if you R, they sound very healthy things to aim for
Journalling.
A totally idyllic day today. Drove Eldest to an activity and spent the afternoon outside in brilliant sunshine with dog and Youngest. Some fun and ice cream and lovely weather. Am determined to enjoy as much of my time as I can - I had such a miserable marriage for such a long time, and ignored all the wonderful things in my life that were just within arms reach and had nothing to do with H at all. I can have days like this no matter what is going on in my marriage.
I have a stinking cold and H rang this afternoon to talk to me about his working arrangements, heard that I was sick, and so came over this evening and has cooked tea for us all. I'm in bed watching a film with Youngest and i can hear H and Eldest chatting happily in the kitchen. I was pretty tired so I am grateful for the offer. I also know it is more comfortable for H to see Youngest here rather than at the house where he is lodging, and he wouldn't see Eldest at all unless he came here, so I guess it suits him too. H has also said he's solidified his working arrangements for next month and so there's no problem with me going away for those few days that I wanted at all. So I have that to look forward to. I'm going to take the full week - I will take the dog with me but he can be in charge of both kids and his work for that time - and I'm going to treat it as a time to recharge and retreat and concentrate entirely on myself.
For now I am going to get to sleep as early as I can, expect nothing at all, and hope that my cold is better tomorrow so I can take Eldest out to a nice new dog-friendly coffee shop that has opened up near us.
Sounds good . Always great to have something to look forward to
Journalling:
lovely day yesterday. Special time with Eldest outside, and lunch out together, then out for a sunny evening walk in the next village before bed. No contact with H - it wasn't intentional on my part, I just forgot.
So nice to have that time, and bittersweet too - thinking about how in the past couple of years how many weekends and evenings were wasted in conflict or bad feeling with H, sulking or crying in my bedroom, or trying to have a conversation to 'resolve things' instead of just enjoying my life and my children. We had so little fun. A lot of that is on me - I was depressed and miserable and it made me selfish - and I never just took myself and the kids out and left him to his computer games and accepted that's what he'd rather do than be with his family - I was always expecting him to make our weekends something nice, then blaming him for not doing it. That is all on me. And I really never ever want to go back to the life I had with him. The fact is, I don't need to - and that makes me happy and sad.
I want to concentrate on making my life and the kids' life as lovely as it can be. I am curious if he will be able to join in with us and have something to offer that I want. Not expecting much today, and not dreading anything either. Just curious, but mainly feeling like my focus is elsewhere. There's still flashes of sadness, but mainly I feel calm and wondering what life has to offer next. He's working solidly twelve hour shifts over the next few days, so I and the kids won't see or hear from him, but I have been busy making plans for cool stuff to do with them.
I am also really pleased that he's agreed to be reasonable about my going away next month. I am going to organise back up childcare in case something changes either with his mood or his working pattern, but whatever happens, I am going. Am already putting some plans in place as to how I will spend the time. I want to spend a lot of time resting and reflecting on what I want my life to look like going forward, and how much of the burdens of my own past and the past of my M I want to let go of for good. I want to use the time to set myself some new goals. And work on some intensive puppy training!
Just journalling:
a good day yesterday too. Time with both kids, the puppy, good weather. Housework done. No contact with H. I'm not really sending those encouraging text messages any more, but other than once or twice, he wasn't sending his goodnight texts either. I'm not sure I want to be putting in more effort than I am getting back. He's been perfectly cordial when we have had contact, but I am not sure it is healthy for me or the chances of possible R if I am the one doing all the chasing right now. I really need to get a handle on pursuit. If we are going to R then I want to be able to feel that it was something he wanted and worked towards, rather than just something he succumbed to.
I have GAL plans for today - seeing my friends this morning, with Eldest looking after Youngest. Eldest out this afternoon, and Youngest and me out to the park with the dog. I'm glad to be seeing my friends - it's been lovely to focus on the kids these past few days, but I am in need of some adult company and conversation. My mind is full of the EA this morning. I am not sure what has triggered it - other than the bit of distance I am having from H at the moment. No phone calls and texts and my mind often drifts towards the time when I saw him enthusiastically pursue someone else. I am as clear as i can be that he isn't doing that now. I suppose these thoughts are about my own insecurity, and perhaps also demonstrating to me that there's more I need from him before I can R and what my needs in a relationship are.
There's a lot said on here about how we tell when the WAS is ready for piecing. I wonder where we LBS need to be before we know we're ready to piece ourselves? The situation perhaps is a little different in that I don't feel entirely like a LBS - I wanted him to leave and although he said he wanted to go, he also considers that I threw him out - so there's that. But I am curious what state I need to be in myself before I am ready to seriously embark on R and piecing with him. Does anyone have any experience about that or insight to share?
I am not sure it is healthy for me or the chances of possible R if I am the one doing all the chasing right now. I really need to get a handle on pursuit. If we are going to R then I want to be able to feel that it was something he wanted and worked towards, rather than just something he succumbed to.
I stopped pursuing a long time ago (but my sitch was different then - he was treating me like [censored] and detachment was a means of self preservation) but even then, he knew I was still waiting for him. As someone here once said, "they know, they can smell it". The best thing you can do is carry yourself with as much grace and dignity as you can muster. Be friendly but don't give him more than he gives you. In the meantime carry on working on yourself. IC is good but you have to also GAL.
The other thing I did was make sure I always looked amazing when he saw me. Not over the top amazing, I just made a little more effort. At first, this was to get him to notice me, but now I do it because it is
who I am . Not just a mum, not just a wife, I
am all those things, but I am also FS, a beautiful and extremely capable, woman.
Weirdly, when he comes to drop the children off in the evening I am often bare faced and in my PJ's. I no longer feel the need to impress him.
I have GAL plans for today - seeing my friends this morning, with Eldest looking after Youngest. Eldest out this afternoon, and Youngest and me out to the park with the dog. I'm glad to be seeing my friends - it's been lovely to focus on the kids these past few days, but I am in need of some adult company and conversation. My mind is full of the EA this morning.
Firstly, all of us here who are parents will tell you that the best thing to come out of this is we rediscover the joy of spending time with our kids. I don't know if it is because we find a new sense of meaning in the word 'family', or because we have more time to energize when they are with our spouses, or because we just miss them when they are away, but whatever it is, it is wonderful. It takes time. At first we are all so caught up in our PAIN that this becomes our sole focus, but once we start to heal, we
all appreciate the time with our children. Enjoy your kids.
My mind is full of the EA this morning. I am not sure what has triggered it - other than the bit of distance I am having from H at the moment. No phone calls and texts and my mind often drifts towards the time when I saw him enthusiastically pursue someone else.
This will pass. Once you learn to calm your mind, then the tunnels will evaporate. There is nothing you can do about what happened in the past or what he may be doing or not doing now. Chances are (and I am sorry for saying this), he is working out if the grass is actually greener, and in order to do that, he will have to take a walk on the grass. But the grass is never greener. He has to discover this for himself. There is no timeline for doing that, and even when he discovers the grass isn't greener, he may be too proud to come home or you may have discovered you like who you have become and no longer want/need him in your life. Build a life. Make it a wonderful life for yourself and your children. You never know, he might see how full your life is and want to join in.
But I am curious what state I need to be in myself before I am ready to seriously embark on R and piecing with him. Does anyone have any experience about that or insight to share?
I have little experience with piecing. But I will say I think you have to have finished your own journey. There is so much devastation when they leave (and I am not saying that in anger) that we are all so desperate to save our marriages we don't take the time to ask ourselves if our marriages were worth fighting for. My H burnt all our happy memories during MC. Our reasons for getting together in the first place, our getting engaged, our wedding, the birth of our children. He said we had never been happy. Cherry picking to justify his desire to escape. But they are not the only ones who cherry pick. We do too. We pick the happy memories. We think about the anniversary cards, and the surprise dinners and the birthday presents and we scream "BUT WE WERE IN LOVE". It is only after, when we truly look at ourselves and our marriages we realise it was neither a bed of roses or a bed of thorns. You have to go finish your journey and know that you are OK with or without him. You have to be in a place where you are no longer trying to win him back, a place where you can look at your marriage
honestly and then say "do I want him back?", "have we changed enough to fix what was wrong?", "are we both in a place where we are willing to do the work?", and lastly "Do I trust him enough to jump in with both feet". Love is a leap of faith. If you aren't all in then there is no point. Ask yourself if you are all in. Then ask yourself if your H is. Until you can say yes to both questions, then proceed with caution, you can work on R, but also keep some of yourself for you. Keep GAL'g and maintain your 180's.
I would tell you to state and maintain your boundaries ... but we all know that would make me a hypocrite
FS
BTW - He destroyed all my memories in the figurative sense. I retaliated by destroying all the photos associated with those memories. He knows what he did. I know what I did. We both feel guilt and shame.
We can all be led astray by our emotions. Don't beat yourself up when you fall down. Just get back up and keep going.
BTW - He destroyed all my memories in the figurative sense. I retaliated by destroying all the photos associated with those memories. He knows what he did. I know what I did. We both feel guilt and shame.
We can all be led astray by our emotions. Don't beat yourself up when you fall down. Just get back up and keep going.
Thank you FS. You've given me so much to think about.
I wanted him to leave before he did. I was utterly miserable. So miserable I didn't really see the ways in which I was making myself unhappy, and helping to trigger some of his behaviour. Not that I was responsible for his verbal and emotional abuse - only that I was no saint, and neither of us were really functioning as adults or able to be happy. I think I was incredibly emotionally dependent and needy and I still am in some respects. I need to work on that before I consider a R with him or anyone else. There's things I'd expect and need him to work on before trying again, and the first of these would be for him to communicate what is going on with him without blaming me. I see tiny signs of that - now and again. When I see it I don't think 'oh, he's changing' but 'oh, there's the man I chose all those years ago,' so it isn't like I am asking for him to be someone entirely different. We got into such a bad dynamic. Nobody's needs getting met, each blaming the other and acting progressively more like a child. I don't think we had any choice but to separate. It was awful. I was so sad - but now I am not. I am sure I will be again. But the last few days, and today, I've started to feel calmer and happy.
In terms of those two questions you mention - am I in? is he in? - where we are today is that H seems to be saying, pretty consistently, 'I am all in, but not right now - give me six weeks' and I am saying 'I am not sure if I am all in or not. Let me see what you have to put on the table.' I guess time needs to pass and I need to be clearer. Both of us have conditions on our answers - him because of his work, mine because I need to see him commit before I can. I think we're both going to have to move - he's going to have to make time to work on things and put the MR first for a while - without neglecting his own needs as an individual - and I am going to have to take a risk and accept that it is a risk and there's nothing he can do to take that risk away. I'm not there yet - I'm really not. I want to trust him or at least be willing to take that leap - but today I am not willing.
I look back and I see how dysfunctional - in places - our relationship always was. But you know, we were young when we met. I think most of the dysfunction came from a place of immaturity rather than malice or out and out toxicity. Nobody has done anything truly unforgivable in my eyes, and I don't feel angry at him today. I am concentrating on growing up a bit, because I want to - though it's also a process of disillusionment about who I am, who he is, and what marriage is and might be. Maybe we will come through this to a more mature marriage. Maybe not. But I am never, ever going back so whatever lies ahead feels better than the past and that feels good today.
Just journalling. A sad day today. I don't know why, not really. I had a nice morning with the kids: Eldest and Youngest getting along and I am really seeing the benefit of the new boundaries and parenting methods that we put in place together after the session with the family therapist. I'm feeling a bit bored - away from work and doing all the childcare has never suited me - but it's just these two weeks and then things will be a bit more normal. It's also hard to really settle to anything like a book or a film with both kids under my feet and the new puppy - but I knew it would be like this and most of the time it is fun.
No contact from H today. I know he's at work. I also know he has breaks and would be able to contact me by text if he wanted to. I also know I tend to, with my neediness, read a lot into his lack of contact - and he's told me already he's stressed, anxious and exhausted and needs to focus entirely on his work. I feel sad. Forgotten about. And usually in these moments I'd be reaching out to him and wanting reassurance. And he'd either give it, which would tide me over for a few days until the doubt started to creep in again, then I'd be back asking for more, like an addict, or resenting him for not offering care and attention and validation freely, because he wanted to. It was so so so dysfunctional. And I am still in that space, but just trying to sit with it and not go to him or read anything into him not coming to me over and above what he's already said. I am trying to accept that he's been very clear about what his position is, and I am very clear in myself that I don't fully believe him, and don't know what my own position is, and nothing he can say or do right now will make a difference to that. It will take time and growth as an individual on my part.
I think part of the reason I feel sad is that I took the kids out this morning and we went to a place we've not been in several years, but which H and I spent a lot of time at when they were babies. I remember us pushing prams around that place. Of course the rose-tinted spectacles will be at play, and a bit of self pity and tiredness too - but it just felt so sad that a couple - a little family - has totally exploded and there's not a single thing I can do about it. I shed a few tears on the way back, but other than that I've been okay and stuck to my GAL and DB plan. Not contacting him for reassurance is a 180. I am trying to drop the rope and detach as well as I can.
I just said on my thread about distancers going through a pursuit phase and pursuers going through a distancing phase in order to get to somewhere in the middle. I suppose in a way you making your husband move out is the ultimate distancing. Going back to pursuing seems unhealthy for you, just like going back to distancing would be unhealthy for me (even though it’s what I feel like doing).
Going to places with happy memories is hard, actually maybe I shouldn’t have chosen this place for a holiday because there is too much history. Next holiday I’m taking the kids somewhere new. Time to make some new memories! You are doing really well Alison, hang in there and be patient. Can we come up with some strategies for what to do when we want to contact but know we should back off? I could really do with some!!
Rang H this evening. Asked him how his work had gone - he was evasive, asked me how I was. I said I was a bit sad, that I wish I'd heard from him more. That he keeps saying he wants to work on repairing things but doesn't have time right now, but he could at least have time to send me a text now and again and he hadn't, and it upset me. And he said he couldn't control how I felt and fixed how I felt and he was going to do what everyone else in the world did and please himself for once. And I said he was only able to do that because I was taking sole care of his kids, and perhaps he could show me a bit of compassion and respect and care, and he said he didn't dare ask me how I was because it always opened a can of worms. I said he didn't have to ask me how I was, he could just tell me he loved me, and he was thinking about me, and things were going to be okay, and he said he was never going to be told what to say by me ever again in his life and if I wanted to tell myself the reason why we were split up was because of his behaviour, I could do that, and he'd be quite happy in his room - he got really nasty and sarcastic and ranty and of course we ended up arguing. He was drunk, I think - I started crying and he started doing nasty impressions of me, which is how he reacts when he feels backed into a corner by my emotions. Turned out he'd had a terrible time at work - and was furious at me for not asking (I had) and making it all about me (I did). I just want this to be repaired or over and I can't have either and it stinks. And he says he wants to work on things, but every single time I go to him for comfort he's so nasty to me.
I could just kick myself. I really could. He's always unbearable when he's tired and he'd obviously come home from work and had a couple of drinks and wasn't in the mood to be dealing with me. And he hates feeling like I am making emotional demands on him, and I basically phoned him and had a go at him for not texting me enough. I just had a very very very weak and sad moment tonight and I had been doing so well. I felt myself drifting away from him and it scared me, I guess. I've tried phoning him again to see if I can repair things and he's turned his phone off. I hate feeling so unnecessary and burdensome and disposable to him. I have been so strong and I've been working so hard on everything and all he sees is some needy, annoying, irritating person who he hates. When I go to him to be cherished or comforted or supported - all things he says he wants in our future - it seems to inspire such contempt in him.
Oh no, that sounds horrible. You’re about as patient as I am, ie not at all! I know how it feels to be longing for comfort and to be given rejection. That hurts more than anything. So painful, I’m sorry that happened to you (())
Honestly, ringing him like that when you were feeling in need of reassurance was never going to go well...
I reiterate: we need strategies for when we want to pursue but shouldn’t. And for how not to have R talks when we know it’ll just be counterproductive.
Cross post there!
Ok both of us have messed up today, been over emotional and had unnecessary R talks.
As you said earlier to me, you’re only human and this stuff is HARD. The hardest thing I have ever done, and I do t even know how far through it is. Let’s forgive ourselves for being human and for the odd mess up. And if our husbands are worth having then they will forgive us too, like we forgive them.
Sleep well x
I think I get that. And I'm not trying to be obstructive. But I don't understand what the point is in having a relationship with someone you are not allowed to ask for emotional support or closeness from. If I don't ask for what I need, I don't get it. If I do ask for it, I get nastiness. It feels like a dead end.
Alison, I'm sorry that this is going to sound tough and not what you want to hear. Please take a deep breath, and consider.
You do not have a relationship.
You think you do, your husband is clearly indicating you do not. You can't go to him for support because he is not your partner right now. This is all pressure pressure pressure and it will most certainly come to a head in an ugly way. It's already showing. He may say he wants a R, but his actions are very clear that is not the case.
I'm going to catch up on your sitch, but you can't go to H to solve your sadness right now. I'm sorry hun, but you are 100% on your own with this hurt. It's tough. We all know, and we've all been there/are there. But if you can work on you and ONLY you right now the hurt will become bearable. Find something that gives you strength, and pour your soul into it.
Make art. Read books. Go for walks. Hit the gym. Sing. Go to church. Whatever it is - find something that feeds you to get you through. Then as you find some strength you can start putting one foot in front of the other and see where life leads you.
I think part of the reason I feel sad is that I took the kids out this morning and we went to a place we've not been in several years, but which H and I spent a lot of time at when they were babies.
This kills all of us. After BD and for months after everything reminded me of H. Places we ate, parks we went to, movies we watched. Literally EVERYTHING. Then one day I sat down and realized that I have eaten at
those places, or taken the children to
that park many times without my H and never once sat there and thought "Oh, H and I used to come here". It is only sad because he left. It is only sad because I was sad. It is not the places, or the things, it is just the sadness. Deal with the sadness because, you were together a long time, and
everything will have memories associated with him and everything will make you sad.
D12 ordered a chocolate milkshake .... H likes chocolate milkshakes ... oh, here comes the sadness again I could just kick myself. I really could. He's always unbearable when he's tired and he'd obviously come home from work and had a couple of drinks and wasn't in the mood to be dealing with me. And he hates feeling like I am making emotional demands on him, and I basically phoned him and had a go at him for not texting me enough. I just had a very very very weak and sad moment tonight and I had been doing so well. I felt myself drifting away from him and it scared me, I guess. I've tried phoning him again to see if I can repair things and he's turned his phone off. I hate feeling so unnecessary and burdensome and disposable to him. I have been so strong and I've been working so hard on everything and all he sees is some needy, annoying, irritating person who he hates. When I go to him to be cherished or comforted or supported - all things he says he wants in our future - it seems to inspire such contempt in him.
You probably read my thread and think to yourself "What is she doing ??? She's driving herself insane whilst he merrily sits in his corner pulling strings and eating cake !!!"
I say the below knowing it is easier to give advice then to take advice.
Not only can you not fix him. He cannot fix you. He is wound up in his own [censored] to care about you. He throws you a bone when he feels that you're pulling away, but underneath he is still messed up and will be for a long time.
1. You cannot expect him to call or text you. H calls
every night almost without fail. Sometimes he speaks to me, sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes I hear D9 say "do you want to speak to mummy ... ok then bye" and then she hangs up. This use to hurt like a MF. The reason it hurt is because I expected him to talk to want to talk me and when he didn't I put all sorts of motives behind it ("he can't stand to talk to me", "he didn't have time to talk to me" blah blah blah). All that mental torture for something I can't control. Stop expecting him to do anything for you. Nothing is for you. Everything right now is for him.
2. Stop expecting him to fix you. {in his head} your emotional needs come way way after his emotional needs. Your H (right now) has the emotional capacity of a teenager. I have a pre-teen daughter. She is going through a lot of [censored] right now. When it first started, my H convinced himself it had nothing to do with him leaving. It was hormones, school, poor diet, me. This was one of his children, the children I know he would step in front of a moving vehicle to save, and he could not see our separation was hurting her. His emotional needs came before her emotional needs. This does not invalidate your feelings. Just like my H need to protect his ego did not invalidate my daughters feelings. Know only that the only one who can make you whole again right now is you.
Yail is right - you need to get out of the cycle of co-dependency. Do things for you. Become a better you. Yail is the champ at this. She has had minimal to NC with her W for 6 months. In that time she started a new course and even picked up knitting. I joined a gym, started doing yoga and meditating, I started pampering myself more and I made friends. Lots and lots of friends. It doesn't take the sadness completely away because neither Yail or I have truly let go yet, but does mean that amongst the sadness there is also laughter and lots of new memories (as well as a new killer body).
You will be a better person ...
Loss breeds appreciation.
Grief breeds compassion.
When I was really sad, I found watching live comedy on Netflix helped a lot. I couldn't watch anything too deep (I lacked the focus) or too romantic (they just made me cry) but live comedy, well after a while, I found myself laughing at the TV.
I think I get that. And I'm not trying to be obstructive. But I don't understand what the point is in having a relationship with someone you are not allowed to ask for emotional support or closeness from. If I don't ask for what I need, I don't get it. If I do ask for it, I get nastiness. It feels like a dead end.
You are absolutely entitled to comfort, but right now he’s not in a position to give it to you. And you asking makes him feel inadequate. You need to cultivate patience yet again. Goodness me this is hard, I’ve never been so patient in my life. And patience in the face of extreme uncertainty is even harder.
I hope you feel more grounded today
Thank you everyone for the tough and clear advice and suggestions. I do really value it. I feel more grounded today in some ways, and more baffled in others.
H came around to see me the day after I called him. He was very kind and nice to me, but didn't really acknowledge the phone call or what we'd said to each other. This is a regular thing with us - I'm the person who wants to talk things out and resolve them, and he's the person who wants to demonstrate a repair through action, and leave things unsaid. I apologised for my part in things and he accepted that and gave me a hug, but didn't really comment on his part in things at all. He was sick - really sick - and I cooked for him again and spent the last couple of days looking after him a bit. He had a fever and slept most of the time. Other than making sure he was fed and had medication, I just went about my life - went out with the kids, did my GAL - as if he wasn't there.
Yesterday he said, 'there's something wrong, what is it?' and I said, 'well, I'm afraid to bring it up because of how cruel and nasty you can be when you feel criticised,' and he pushed and in the end I said, 'I know I rang at a bad time and I know I was asking you for something you've told me already you can't give. I know that wasn't respecting your boundaries. I accept responsibility for that. I've apologised. And some of the ways you treated me in response were really cruel and unacceptable to me, yet here you are being nursed when you are sick, and wanting that from me, and while I want to help you and comfort you, I also hate how you treat me when I ask for help and comfort from you.'
He really didn't like that and started on about how I shouldn't ring him when he's tired, he's stressed etc etc. I said, 'Yes, you're right about that. And yes, there's more I could do to respect your boundaries. But what I am talking about is the mean and cruel way you spoke to me and the way that made me feel, and that matters too,' and in the end he apologised. I just accepted it quickly and changed the subject because I didn't want him to feel like I was berating him or forcing him to grovel. I wanted some acknowledgement, I suppose. He can't help not having much emotional capacity right now, or being unable to offer support. I can't help not liking that. But we can both help how we behave.
Ah, I don't know. He's gone back to his own place now. We have a standing arrangement for him to take the kids on Wednesday nights so I can GAL at a class I do to, so he will be back later. When he was here he was talking about how things were going to be once he's done his project - how different the marriage will be. It wasn't just a list of changes he wanted me to make, but more changes in how our lives would be - how we'd spend our time and so on. I just said, 'a lot would need to be different for that to work, wouldn't it?' and he said 'yes.' I still don't have any sense that he's considering what would need to be different about him. I don't know.
So this is either me accepting he can offer nothing, running around after him with a wet flannel and a lemsip after some pretty awful behaviour on his part, and accepting mere civility because it's just the crumbs that are on offer right now. Or it is him starting to trust me enough to ask for comfort and be vulnerable (that is new - him wanting comfort when sick) and me learning to accept that part of a relationship is in offering care and support through the hard times when the other person can't give much in return. I don't know which it is. Probably a bit of both.
Just caught up with this thread and too me personally as someone who has been through this process and come out of the other end - I understood very early on that I needed to detach detach detach.
If the relationship was ever going to work, I had to be alone, sad, heartbroken, empty - and as the months go by and things start to settle - then maybe if it was meant to be then we would naturally be drawn back to each other - which luckily was the case and still is.
The thing I notice about your posts, is the constant interactions with him and the desperate nature of them.
You may say you need to talk to him or ask him this and that.. However behind all of these questions is fear. Fear that it may truly be over and you have lost everything you had previously. But it seems you have convinced yourself otherwise that interacting with him in this way is going to help you.
I can tell you from experience it isnt helping.
You seem to be constantly looking for clues in everything he is saying. But that’s only going to drive you insane because he will not provide you with answers that have any solid foundation or future - simply enough to keep you ticking over until next time you feel a bit down or empty.
Its like your scrambling to make him see how you don’t want this to end, but in the same breath trying to DB at the same time - and the result is a non functional mess of emotions that does nothing to help you move on - or help draw him back into the equation if he so choses.
One trick that helped me massively was truly 100% believing there is no way back. That she was dead. We would never get back together - and truly accept it. Seems bizzare - but it worked as it allowed me to make decisions and talk through my true self for my benefit rather than living through hints of desperation which alter my mindset to ask questions which are ultimately designed to make you feel better and as a result push them away further.
I was going to respond earlier, but Benito has articulated everything I wanted to say, but so much better.
Alison - we have all been where you are. You need to let him go and focus on you. The constant interactions make it difficult to do this because when they are around all the time we naturally want to put meaning into everything they say and do. I know its hard you want him to see the changes but in the end, and you'll realise this too, the changes are not to win him back, the changes are for you. If he comes back that's a bonus, if he doesn't, you win anyway.
Limit your interactions. Be friendly but not too available. If you can't manage that without getting your emotions in a twist, then limit your interactions even more. You can increase them again later when you aren't so much at the mercy of the slings and the arrows. Like the changes, detachment is a tool to protect you (and yes, I know it is also a tool to make them realise what they've lost but to me that's a little manipulative).
Yesterday he said, 'there's something wrong, what is it?' and I said, 'well, I'm afraid to bring it up because of how cruel and nasty you can be when you feel criticised,' and he pushed and in the end I said, 'I know I rang at a bad time and I know I was asking you for something you've told me already you can't give. I know that wasn't respecting your boundaries. I accept responsibility for that. I've apologised. And some of the ways you treated me in response were really cruel and unacceptable to me, yet here you are being nursed when you are sick, and wanting that from me, and while I want to help you and comfort you, I also hate how you treat me when I ask for help and comfort from you.'
I'm sorry to say this but all he heard was "you are cruel and nasty ... [blah blah blah] ... your response was cruel and unacceptable ... you expect me to nurse you when you're sick ... I don't get anything in return".
Pressure. Lots and lots of pressure. And a little of you playing the victim.
You are not a victim Alison. Stop acting like one.
Him: 'there's something wrong, what is it?'
Me: 'I'm Ok - just had a tough day".
When he was here he was talking about how things were going to be once he's done his project - how different the marriage will be. It wasn't just a list of changes he wanted me to make, but more changes in how our lives would be - how we'd spend our time and so on. I just said, 'a lot would need to be different for that to work, wouldn't it?' and he said 'yes.' I still don't have any sense that he's considering what would need to be different about him. I don't know.
Your response "a lot would need to be different" reeks of blame. Just listen to him when he says things like this. Nod your head, validate where you need to but don't get drawn into the conversation.
And why are you running after him with a [censored] flannel? He left. He fired you as his wife. He doesn't get to have you running around after him now just because he doesn't feel well. Consequences. He can look after his own self.
Sorry, that was harsh.
They say here that we should treat them like a friendly neighbour - if your neighbour was sick, you might offer some friendly advice/sympathy - "That sounds terrible, you probably should get some lemsip / paracetamol on your way home and tuck yourself up in bed" but you certainly wouldn't be nursing them back. You'd probably not even think about it again once you'd said goodbye and closed the door.
Great info here, hard as it is to hear...
I do understand what you're all saying - I do. And I guess it comes across like I'm being really resistant and obstructive and that isn't how I mean to be. But I keep on saying this - and nobody seems to take it into account - he didn't leave me, I wanted him to leave and had been begging him to leave for months before he did. I think it makes a difference to this situation. I'm as much of a WAW as I am a LBS. It just so happened I'm in the marital home and he's not.
I also wonder at how much of what I'm being advised to do now involves dishonesty - pretending I am okay when I am a not, pretending I am not hurt or offended by his behaviour when I am - and if that's the case, how would that help? Is it possible for me to be authentic about what is going on with me without making him responsible for fixing it?
When you first met – did you need to take advise off people?
Probably not – because you were just you and he was just him. You were both attracted to each other. No games.. no advise.. it was just because.
Life has forced you to lose yourself and into a role i.e mother/carer/wife etc..
That only lasts as long as both parties are willing to play house.
Successful relationships are the ones were both parties still view each other in the same way they did when they first met. i.e. as separate individuals, who you respect and would like to spend time with.
Yes of course, wife and husband roles can work – however, all it takes is one party to (feel alive) again, i.e. met someone new, or a death in the family were they mentally reset and think … what am I doing here… I am not happy I want more.
Then the problems start and games start being played.
If the relationship is genuine then the two parties should never forget themselves and become a role – they are still that person you met but a bit older.
He is NOT responsible for how you feel.
That is so co-dependent its untrue and it’s an issue you need to sort. No one should have the power to make you feel like that. Nobody.
He is treating you the way he is because you have allowed it.
If he was abusing your kids would you stay? No you wouldn’t. It wouldn’t be a question. You would be gone in a second because it’s against your moral fibre to accept such behaviour. So why in the same breath would you tip toe around him now? He doesn’t want you as this role your playing. You need to accept that.
Your so bought into the idea of not losing something that your panicking coming here for advise.
What is there to panic about? – if you were being true to you as Alison, not a wife or mother, but Alison as a person, you wouldn’t be confused – you would get your sh*t together and do what is best for you and f**k the consequences. If he wants to come on the journey them so be it. If not, at least your living a life for you.
It starts with totally letting go and being alone. But your terrified of it - and are always keeping one eye on him waiting for a crumb of comfort.
I don't think the LBS / WAW / WAH/ WW labels matter 1 jot Alison. I think there was a pretty good reason why you asked and then begged him to leave. You had a marriage in crisis. My reading of DB was that it was for a marriage in crisis. A spouse that has left is one aspect of that for which it is suggested there may need to be special considerations.
I was a LBS who was then the one who pulled the plug on my M. My H was genuinely surprised that I wanted to Divorce. Distance showed me that the grass was actually greener and there was more out there for me. I am starting to suspect that in a few months / years I would have pulled the plug and been a WAW anyway.
I worry about you Alison because you come across as a tightly coiled spring who is trying to spin plates and juggle with burning coals.
He has told you that he isn't going to meet your need to repair this R yet.
Either accept that and sit and wait whilst working out what it is you fear. Or decide that you are not waiting.
I know you want to wait, so do your R a favour and back off.
Up 'ere in the North we would describe you as 'mawking' at him. Hovering and mothering and trying to fix.
Leave him be. Not to punish him, but just to identify yourselves as independent human beings.
You used the word "cruel" in how he interacted with you while stressed. Is that word accurate? Because if it is, I think you really need to reflect on it.
I've been around/with people who are stressed to the max. People I'm very close with, people I love. And they can be short, they can be snippy and they can be rude. But they can NEVER be cruel. That is a line that is crossed and just not how you treat someone you love. It's not.
You asked him to leave, and I think you need to stand by that. I think it's obvious that you asked him to leave because you need things to change but you aren't giving either of you the opportunity to make a change. You don't have the space to create a new dynamic.
You will only feel yourself change when you truly step back from the M and focus only on you. Not on H one iota. He also needs to fend for himself and figure out what his priorities are.
I'm barely at 6 months separated and only now am I finding out who I really am as an individual. I thought I knew, and I'm happy that I was mostly right. But I'm still learning, and that's what space does. You are in desperate need of space and time.
No future-reading, no mind-reading. Just space and time with yourself. That's your prescription.
I don't think the LBS / WAW / WAH/ WW labels matter 1 jot Alison. I think there was a pretty good reason why you asked and then begged him to leave. You had a marriage in crisis. My reading of DB was that it was for a marriage in crisis. A spouse that has left is one aspect of that for which it is suggested there may need to be special considerations.
I was a LBS who was then the one who pulled the plug on my M. My H was genuinely surprised that I wanted to Divorce. Distance showed me that the grass was actually greener and there was more out there for me. I am starting to suspect that in a few months / years I would have pulled the plug and been a WAW anyway.
I worry about you Alison because you come across as a tightly coiled spring who is trying to spin plates and juggle with burning coals.
He has told you that he isn't going to meet your need to repair this R yet.
Either accept that and sit and wait whilst working out what it is you fear. Or decide that you are not waiting.
I know you want to wait, so do your R a favour and back off.
Up 'ere in the North we would describe you as 'mawking' at him. Hovering and mothering and trying to fix.
Leave him be. Not to punish him, but just to identify yourselves as independent human beings.
This makes sense to me, thank you. And yes - I can see that I am still tightly coiled with my hands all over this situation trying to manage it and control it - and him - in order to get myself out of uncertainty and pain. It must be terrible to be on the receiving end, because it's only part of me that feels like that - the other part knows he has a long way to go before I'd be able to be in a functioning relationship with him, that is his journey and not mine, that he's not taking it, may not even want to take it, and I am about as terrified of being back in the marriage that was as I am of a future without him. It's veering between these two states that makes me so erratic and probably awful to be around. At one point making him soup and mothering him, at the other reminding him of the flaws of his he needs to work on before I'd be interested in him. It's horrible and exhausting for me and is probably deeply unpleasant for him too.
You used the word "cruel" in how he interacted with you while stressed. Is that word accurate? Because if it is, I think you really need to reflect on it.
I've been around/with people who are stressed to the max. People I'm very close with, people I love. And they can be short, they can be snippy and they can be rude. But they can NEVER be cruel. That is a line that is crossed and just not how you treat someone you love. It's not.
Yes, I believe it is accurate. He knows what hurts me. He knows that if he makes nasty remarks about my childhood or my father, or an illness I suffered from when we first met, or he does mocking and belittling impressions of me being upset, or says nasty things about the children, that I'd get so upset I will leave the conversation - leave the room or the house or hang up the phone. It's a desperate act on his part to get out of a conversation he doesn't want to have (and I can take responsibility for my part in us being in that conversation in the first place) but it is also very calculated.
We discussed it in MC and I basically begged him to take those techniques off the table - for him to agree that no matter what else happened he would stop doing those things. He had stopped - for a while - but the other night I guess he'd had a drink and I was upset and he wanted to get out of the conversation and he knows that's a great way of getting me to retreat. So he did it again. He doesn't seem to feel any shame or sorrow or contrition about it - and yes, he did apologise, but basically because I brought it up.
He can be a very cruel and nasty man. Or rather, when he feels threatened he will do whatever he thinks will work to get me to go away and leave him alone. And he finds even very gentle approaches threatening sometimes. He has an awful relationship with every single one of his female relatives, is very contemptuous about people's emotions, and is generally one of those people with a terror of being engulfed. And yet he was round yesterday to take care of the kids so I could go out, he was asleep when I got back so he stayed over again, and is here making no plans to leave and is clearly miserable and wanting the comfort of being at home.
Are you in IC? Do you have support networks?
Yes. I am in IC and have been for two years. I have a spiritual practice that involves me meeting regularly with a small group who I can speak openly with. I have good friends. I'm not close with my family, but that's healthy for me.
I was the one to ask my H to leave. I was the one to trigger his BD (in fact he was shocked that I was so unhappy). At the time he said all the right things (we're worth fixing, I still love you) but his actions said something different. He gaslighted. He raged. He disappeared for days. He wasn't completely at fault. I was needy and insecure and every time he looked at me I reminded him of the pain he was causing.
The thing is, even if I hadn't triggered BD, it would have happened anyway. I just brought the timeline forward. He had been depressed for months and his resentment had been building for years. I wasn't depressed but I too carried around a basket of resentment. Resentment is a poison that eats you up from the inside.
The man he was then is not the man he is now. The fog (whilst not gone) is lifting. The woman I am now is not the woman I was then. I am metaphorically lighter than I was. This doesn't mean we will R. But it bodes well for our futures - whether that be as a couple or as two individuals. Time did that.
Your H and you both have to get to calmer seas before otherwise you will be constantly fighting to keep your head above the water. And that is exhausting for both of you.
I agree with FS and that’s something I’m really struggling with myself right now, the calmer seas. Ugh isn’t this just so difficult?
I’m looking forward to your Alison 2.0 list...
Thanks for the blunt suggestions and clear responses, friends. I am feeling a bit better today. I don't think me feeling better and him being away back to his own house are a co-incidence, either. I know I find it nearly impossible to be my best calm self around him. I wish he could see the person I am when it's just me and the kids. Sad sometimes, yes, but also getting on with things and parenting more lovingly and assertively and developing myself and getting out and about every day. Feeling inner calm and some serenity, even if there is sadness and uncertainty mixed in there too. When I'm around him I turn into someone else - I don't enjoy being that person and he sure doesn't like being with that person either. I don't know if this is the case, but I sometimes wonder if the reason why he seeks out contact with me and I seek out contact with him is that we're both trying to find and get contact with that good calm best version of each other. ANd the act of seeking - the desperation and control involved - triggers other versions of ourselves to show up for the interaction. The act of not finding triggers it too. And it gets messy and hurtful and sad. Sigh. More time and space needed - as you all keep telling me.
I have been working on my list and I would love some feedback. I want a list of things that will feed and nourish me. This is partly about self care, but also partly about me building the life I want to lead with or without my H.
A list of walks to take in the countryside over the next four months - planned and scheduled into my diary. Some alone and some with the kids. (Do this plan on Monday).
Sign up and arrange childcare to attend weekly local meditation class. (Done).
Make contact with a friend every day - phone, text, email or in person. See friends in person at least once a week. Be present for them and the things that are important to them as well as honest about what is going on with me.
Reading - an hour a day (at least). Half an hour for pleasure and half an hour for self improvement. (Reading is one of my great pleasures and other than obsessively consulting relationship-repair type books, I've hardly picked up a book since January).
Get out my knitting again and finish my heirloom blanket and my prayer shawl. Download podcasts / audiobooks to listen to while I'm doing it.
Put in funding application at work (by June) and promotion application (by November).
Deepen spiritual practice - find a regular time for solitary prayer and meditation daily.
That's a great list - I really like that you've put action plans against things.
Good for you Alison.
((Hugs))
Okay.
And inspired by conversation in Yail's thread I did the M-B personality test and came out as a INFJ. This is the 'advocate' or 'counsellor' or 'visionary' depending on what website you look at. It means I am sensitive in connection with other people, creative, introverted, run on emotion and very intuitive. The more detailed descriptions are pretty spot-on for me. Sensitive and artistic but finding spontaneity stressful and needing structured time. Likes intimate contact with other people, but very introverted. The weak points or shortcomings are also very very spot on - emotionally over sensitive and reactive, extremely private and mistrusting, perfectionistic in work and relationships which can make me needy and demanding, and tendency to burn out easily.
I can see all this is extremely true for me.
Interesting. I'd usually be very dismissive of things like this, but it feels extremely accurate.
Thank you FS.
I have been reading about the personality types this morning a little (though must get on. I have precious child free time and do not want to spend it hunched in front of a screen on such a lovely day!) and it made me laugh. The list I've made echoes pretty precisely what, apparently, INFJ people need to recharge and feel better.
https://introvertdear.com/news/infj-personality-needs-happy/I didn't know that when I made the list but it is good to have it confirmed that I have SOME inner wisdom worth relying on, even if my radar when it comes to my marriage is totally skew-whiff.
I like your list Alison! Especially the balance between reading for pleasure and reading for improvement. That's a great balance.
And I'm glad it is fitting in with your Myers Briggs. I think when we are aware of our strengths and weaknesses it only helps to aid us in being better.
I've decided that 'reading for improvement' will include books about spirituality and assertiveness, creative self development, parenting and meditation. But I'm not going to read relationship or marriage books any more for the time being. There might be a time for that in the future, and there's plenty about my communication I can improve outside of my marriage - but I think the obsessive reading of relationship books was keeping my focus on a relationship that isn't there any more, rather than on myself. I have made myself a little reading list (because apparently INFJ love a bit of order and structure!) this afternoon, which was a nice way to spend half an hour.
I hate to say it but Myers Briggs is a load of crap. That said, if you find it useful and it resonates then use it to improve your life (a bunch of those things also sounded like me btw). I like your list, and the focus on yourself. Stick with it
Perhaps I'd have found enough to identify with in any of the descriptions! They're all fairly capacious, aren't they? Still, it does no harm. And I like my list too.
Today was a weird day. I had a happy time in some respects - some time alone, which has been in massively short supply and which I really needed. Then family dinner (my side) this evening for Easter. Kids had been to PILS for the celebration with his side - though he'd just taken them and dropped them off but hadn't attended himself. He looks awful at the moment and probably needed the time to rest and recover but still, it was a bit sad for them not to have either of us there. MIL dropped the kids off with me this evening. She's not been in touch at all since he moved out and that's saddened me a bit as I think we were reasonably close and got on okay prior to this. I have no idea what he told her - she knew we were having problems and that there'd been infidelity on his side, but her frostiness after he moved out surprised me. Anyway - she was cordial at the drop off. We made chit chat. She said I was looking well and asked me how I was feeling. I AM looking well - I've been outside a lot and my skin looks great after stopping smoking and I've put on a nice amount of weight. I told her I was really enjoying having a dog and time with the kids. It was all fine, but awkward. It's hard to know how to handle interaction with her but I think I did okay. But now I have thoughts over how weird and hard it will be to resurrect or regain the relationships with my ILS if we do end up reconciling. I feel resentful that not one of them has been in touch these past few months to ask me how I am or ask me if I needed help with the kids - they must have known he wasn't doing any childcare and I could have done with some help now and again. But I can let go of that, and thoughts about what things will look like in the future and what problems I might have don't need to be dealt with today.
Plans for tomorrow: REST and GAL with kids and some housework. Gearing up to get them back into their school routine. Making my own plans for the summer walking.
Just like you can’t control your husband, you can’t control your ILs either. You don’t know what kind of complicated dynamics are going on with them, so all you can do is tell them how happy you would be to have them see the kids I think.
PS well done on the smoking thing, that’s amazing that you managed that in such a stressful period.
You're right. And I think I have a tendency to search for the cloud in every silver lining. All the time. I need to watch for that because it [censored] the joy out of things for me and it also really drags down other people. So. The kids had a nice time, the in-laws were cordial with me and asked me how I was doing, I got some much needed time alone, and that's all that matters for the time being. I texted this morning and thanked them for their gifts for the children and said they'd had a lovely time, and they sent some nice photos back. Made no mention of H and I plan not to if the communication continues. I guess I am a bit sad about not being invited this year - but on the other hand, I did really need the time alone and I made the most of it.
I am really proud of myself for the stopping smoking. H never liked it and often complained, and I ignored him because his criticism made me feel controlled. But actually everything he said about my smoking was right, and I am feeling better in all kinds of ways for stopping. It's also helped me put on a bit of weight - which was badly needed. My vanity says - I am glad to see the in-laws looking sun-kissed and healthy rather than shadow-eyed and thin-as-a-wraith which I was earlier this year so at least there's that!
Sounds great on the feeling better Alison. What plans do you have to keep the momentum going ?
Thanks for asking, Tryhard. You always ask questions that get me thinking and moving and taking action and stop me dwelling on things.
So - today both kids are back at school. I need to finish off two important pieces of work. I also want to take the dog out and work on some training that I'm trying with her. And read. I want to read. I have a friend who lives nearby and I want to schedule a lunch in with her sometime very soon - her family is away and I know she gets lonely so it will do us both good. I will contact her today. I also want to schedule those walks into my diary - I was supposed to do it yesterday but I got distracted and didn't get around to it, so today's the day for that.
A question too. My MIL contacted me yesterday and wants to come over tonight. She wants to drop something off for my son. It will be a very quick visit - she's on her way somewhere else - but I want to be ready to handle any awkwardness well and with kindness and dignity should it crop up. I also am not inclined to get into my private business with her and I don't think that's appropriate. And I feel vulnerable because I have no idea what H has told her about me.
Thanks for the feedback Alison that has brightened my day
Great news on arranging meeting with your friend and getting those two pieces of work scheduled.
My OPINION on how to deal with mil , is to use MWD’s act as if , be happy, positive and friendly. One additional reason for this is that I expect that H has most likely not told her anything substantive , I expect she will ask how you are doing, kids , Easter break etc . I would answer to any questions that I didn’t want to get involved with her on is “ I don’t know how I feel about that” and then kindly explain that I have lots to do and hope she doesn’t mind .
I would get some more opinions on this as I am no expert in any of this and when I am in a stressful relationship situation I go on autopilot and myself not do the optimal thing. TBH I expect you will do much better than I could anyway .
Regardless I hope you have a great day , keep up the good work and keep moving.
A question too. My MIL contacted me yesterday and wants to come over tonight. She wants to drop something off for my son. It will be a very quick visit - she's on her way somewhere else - but I want to be ready to handle any awkwardness well and with kindness and dignity should it crop up. I also am not inclined to get into my private business with her and I don't think that's appropriate. And I feel vulnerable because I have no idea what H has told her about me.
Tryhard offered good advice on this. I would just add this- do not get drawn into R talks with her. If she asks anything about the R then just say you are both taking time and space to work on yourselves and use that as a segue to tell her how awesome you are doing. One thing to keep in mind with in-laws is ANYTHING you saw WILL get back to your spouse. So you want to telegraph nothing but positive vibes. You're moving on, you're happy, you're focused on yourself. You want MIL going back to him and saying "I saw Alison today and WOW she is doing great!"
Great. That was sort of my plan. I could tell she was a bit shocked to see how well I was doing (I am certainly looking much better than I was the last time we saw each other.) I prefer not to get into a conversation with her about my marriage, and it is true, I am feeling good and doing better in all kinds of ways, so I don't plan to put on a front with her either.
You have plenty of things to talk about (the dog, the kids) without even needing to go near any R stuff. I bet she won't want to talk about it either! If she has Qs she can ask and you can deflect, if she has stuff to say you can validate and then move the conversation on. I think maybe she might feel awkward too, but I hope it goes ok. Also, your H might not have said anything much to her, my dh has not said anything to any of his family (and I haven't to mine either...), or he might have just kept it general 'we're having a few problems'.
The advice you've received is sound. Keep your cards close to your chest. Be polite and even charming but don't get into R conversations with her. "I am doing really well. How have you been?". "I don't know how H is feeling. How have you been?" and a favorite of mine "Good days and bad days but the good days are out numbering the bad. How have you been?" (just enough vulnerability to be human, not too much that I sound distraught).
Well, after all that the visit was something and nothing. She just waited at the door - said hello to Eldest but Youngest was out the back and she dashed away before he could come and say hello to her, which he was disappointed about. She said she was parked badly (she wasn't) but whatever...
Out with my friend this morning for a walk. Got my two pieces of work done yesterday. Plan to get my diary and admin in order this afternoon (domestic admin is a shambles of late) and my meditation class is tonight. H is coming to look after the kids and is planning to come a bit earlier and eat with us. He's been very cordial - even affectionate - these past few days. Goodnight texts without fail. He also really likes the dog (despite my getting it - even though he'd agreed to it - being a big bone (sorry) of contention with him over the past couple of months). He pretends he is helping me out and doing me a favour by taking it into the garden or playing with it while he's here seeing the kids, but I can tell he has gone soft on him. It reminds me of the man I married.
GAL plans in place for tomorrow - seeing friends morning and afternoon. There are many dog friendly cafes in this city that I have never tried and I plan to do a tour of them over the next couple of weeks!
I thought the dog would win him over
Hooray for your GAL activities
I know it means nothing for the marriage, but it is something that is easing his bond with the kids and helping them have fun together. It warms my heart towards him. And at the very least, it is one less thing for me to listen to him whinging about. So I am taking it as a positive!
Anything which makes any aspect of life more pleasant is worth celebrating
Edit - PLEASE start a new thread - cadet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2846595#Post2846595