Old thread ...
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...in=61965&Number=2842606#Post2842606hQuick summary
BD Octo 2017, MO Mar 2018. Currently still in limbo.
I suspect the BD started 6 - 9 months before the actual day. He had for some time been distant, angry, working more, watching TV until very late at night and generally checking out of family life. Spent a lot of months pre BD walking on egg shells, being constantly worried about what he would get angry about, and making myself more and more silent (I am a distancer). There was some typical MLC behavior (new car, hair plugs, teeth whitened, spending hours at the gym, going on 'lad's holidays) but suspect it was largely depression.
BD was precipitated by me. I asked him what was wrong. He seemed genuinely surprised, said he didn't know I was so unhappy and seemed keener than I to work on our relationship. The following month I worked really hard on our relationship (pursuit) and he pulled back. Lots of "It's too late", "We can't change" and general pulling away. I felt rejected and tried harder. He pulled back more. We tried MC but this just gave him a forum to complain about everything I had done going back years. He said he felt like he needed to say something to justify how he felt so he was looking for reasons. During this period he checked out more and more. He got more and more angry. He would go for days without speaking to me and barely acknowledging the girls. He acknowledged many times he still loved me (at my insistence) and that he did not know what was wrong. There was no OW.
After he MO he focused on the children. He became (and remains) the ideal dad. He loves our kids. He loves our dog. He loves our home. He keeps me at arms length. He tried dating but I don't think it went anywhere. I don't know this for sure, but he is a pilot so away about 3 nights per week and then sees the kids the other three nights. He has at most, one night a week free. On these nights he makes a thing of telling me he is going to the gym, or going to football or going to watch a boxset. He does go out a couple of nights a month but he also makes a big deal of telling me who he is going with (always mates).
I can see that he is working on his temper. He has, in the months leading to BD and until recently, had very little patience with me. If anything went wrong, he would be quick to say that it was my fault. If I said something was black he would say it was blue. If something went missing, I had moved it. He became more critical and I became more defensive. I can see him trying to hold back the criticism (it is still there, just not articulated). I am trying not to let his comments feel like attacks.
I am doing OK. Mostly calm. Occasionally I feel down - this has been a long process full of uncertainty and doubt. It can also be lonely. I am trying not to be led by my emotions or (more importantly) his emotions and behaviour. I lost a lot of weight post BD and it is now starting to come back (in a healthy way). Since BD I have changed jobs, negotiated two pay rises, made a lot of good friends and am rediscovering long lost aspects of my personality. I have been on two holidays on my own (Casablanca and Chamonix) and two long weekends away. I have taken the girls away on my own (one holiday and two long weekends). I have spent a few nights dancing the night away. I think I have gained a lot of empathy for other people - I feel their pain because I have been there. I am more compassionate and forgiving. I notice and appreciate the positive things in my life - you don't notice because you're too busy living life. I notice sunsets, the smell of different foods, trees, birds singing, the cold air on my face. I have gotten closer to my girls and know in my heart that they will be fine because they have two parents who love them very very much.
I am doing OK.
Oh FS, there was so much there that I related to, so so much. Particularly the part about empathy, you see pain everywhere once you have suffered so much. And the noticing thing I have done for a long time, but it becomes particularly important now I think.
I'm crying now. So much heartbreak, so many wasted years when your love goes unreciprocated. So much sorrow for so little purpose. Such a waste. Sorry, I've had a bad week. You sound like you're in a good place. I'm glad. You have been unbelievably patient. I'm not sure I'm willing to wait as long as you have.
Thank you. I hear the pain in your words. Your desire to understand your H. But sometimes, this process is not about them, it is about us. I also read the words of an intelligent, compassion and kind woman. You have the strength to get through this. You might not R, but from the short time you've been here, I know you are going to be OK. You just need to remember who you are.
I read somewhere that you need to learn to be alone because then you will never be lonely. This is a lesson hard learned. But it has been learned.
It has been a very long process. I did not think at the start that I would still be standing over a year in. I gave myself lots of deadlines, lots of lines in the sand. Six months, if he starts dating, if he goes on this holiday. But in reality, it is not a choice. I stand because I feel deep inside there is still hope for us. I think it was DnJ on DV's thread who said that there is a difference between moving on and moving forward. I have not moved on but I am moving forward. I honestly think that moving on will be organic for me. It wont' be precipitated by a particular length in time, a formal separation or a D. It won't be precipitated by a discovery of him having an affair. It will just happen.
Hi FS I check in on you from time to time, and your last post inspired me to stop by for a "chat". In my sitch, I'm closing in on 6 months S, but in reality we were just floating along as roommates since 1/2018. Still Standing, although I've tipped over a few times.
I read somewhere that you need to learn to be alone because then you will never be lonely. This is a lesson hard learned. But it has been learned.
This is so true. I've always been comfortable in my own skin, and I can honesty say I have rarely felt lonely since H moved out. Not to say I don't feel sorry for myself in the quiet of the evening, and miss Hs companionship, but not lonely. I told someone once that you can be lonely with someone around all time. That's how I felt prior to H moving out. Lonely
with him. My life is full, because I
choose it to be that way. I am pro-active.
It has been a very long process. I did not think at the start that I would still be standing over a year in. I gave myself lots of deadlines, lots of lines in the sand. Six months, if he starts dating, if he goes on this holiday. But in reality, it is not a choice. I stand because I feel deep inside there is still hope for us. I think it was DnJ on DV's thread who said that there is a difference between moving on and moving forward. I have not moved on but I am moving forward. I honestly think that moving on will be organic for me. It wont' be precipitated by a particular length in time, a formal separation or a D. It won't be precipitated by a discovery of him having an affair. It will just happen.
This is spot on. After much emotional turmoil over a few events discovered over the past 1 1/2 months, this is something I've come to realize for myself too. My faith tells me that no matter how broken a person is, Grace, redemption, and a happy life is possible. I found it for myself. I can see the full life I plan to lead from now on. I hope H comes along for the ride someday. I will let life just happen, and see it it leads me to a happy life with, or without H.
My life if full, and I am (mostly) content.
Sounds life yours is too, FS.
Hi Grace
Long time no hear. It is nice to hear from a familiar voice and so nice to see how much more settled and happy you are. I remember those that started here round the same time as me (you, Harvey, Burned, DV, Yorkie to name a few) and although sitchs have taken different trajectories, we all, I think are doing OK. We all came here looking for answers but instead found us. In any case, I check in on you too, just the other day, whilst responding on AlisonUKs thread re GALg I remember when you had joined a walking group.
I get what you mean re lonely with them. In the months leading to BD it was always just me and the girls. He was either working or out with his friends. When he was here he wasn't really here. This was partly my doing - I resented him being away + he was so moody when he was here, that I retaliated by making him uncomfortable when he was here. I knew I was doing it too. Which doesn't cast me in a very good light, but part of this journey is facing up to our faults. In any case I am rarely lonely. I like my own space. It was tough when he took the kids away on holidays (too much space, too much time to spend thinking about our family holidays together) but for the most part, I like being home on my own.
In my darker moments I wonder if the standing thing is stupid pride or, even worse, fear of being rejected by someone else, and tbh it is probably partly these things. But, it is also partly because I know I still love him and I know that he still loves me.
But today is not one of those darker moments. I had a good day at work, flirted a little with the boy (good for the ego) and came home early so I could take D12 to buy a new jacket and then took both girls out to dinner. We had a nice meal together, came home and they did homework whilst I updated my thread. H called when I was about to get in the shower and I ignored it and let one of the girls answer it downstairs. He is not calling to talk to me and the girls are capable of answering the phone themselves. Note: there is no anger behind that last sentence. When I came downstairs D12, in a very conspiratorial voice said "Daddy's angry with you because you didn't take D9 to her tutor group". I smiled back and said "I am sure he'll be OK". D9 then said something about daddy being really angry and that it was a waste of money (he pays for the tutor group) and I smiled and laughingly said "It will be OK - I'll just tell him I forgot". I can't change what's happened, I can't control his reaction, so there is no point getting anxious or worried about it.
Hey FS. It’s been awhile. You sound like you are definitely moving forward. I know I’ve said this countless times but I do think that you are right to still have hope for you and your H. I think you should always be true to yourself and if standing is where you are at, good for you for doing it. I, too, have a lot of hope for you and your marriage and I really, really hope that you are one of the people on here who does get a second chance. Thank you for all of your support and your guidance. There are many of us on here who have benefitted greatly from having you in our corner. Sending you long distance (((HUGS))) and lots of love!!!
Hey FS,
Dropping by to say hi and catching up with what you've been up to. You ARE doing OK, great even!
I came across something on pinterest, don't ask me how I found it or why... but it said People think that being alone makes you lonely, but I don't think that's true. Being surrounded by the wrong people is the loneliest feeling in the world.
You have the fortitude to persevere.
Kinda funny that you said H was working on his temper and then he's an angry bird because you didn't take D9.
It's good to hear from you again FS. I always appreciate your comments on mine and other's threads. And it's good that you're in such a calm and steady place - and it's sad, I think, that your H, despite wanting to work on his temper and improve his parenting, is still drawing your daughter into an attempt at conflict with you. If he was worried about the tutoring, he could have asked you directly about it, or sent a message if you weren't able to come to the phone. I worry about her conspiratorial tone - as if he was trying to triangulate with you. It isn't good and I think you handled it very well - just calm and matter of fact and leaving his feelings for him to deal with. I am really really really bad at that myself - when H is angry (and he is, often, over real and imagined slights) my wheels totally come off. I want to be in the place that you are - both for my own benefit, and because I think if we are to have a chance a piecing I will need to learn to respond to his anger in an adult way, and he's going to need the space to process his own anger healthily without me leaping in to placate him or defend myself. I'm nowhere near that yet but it is good to see what it might look like from your situation.
I can also really connect with what you say about feeling lonely. I don't mind my own company and my work requires a lot of solo concentration time. I am also working on GAL with my friends and spending good healthy fun time with my children. I'm seeing the benefits there and the knock on effect is that I am learning to enjoy my solo not working time too - taking the time to calm myself and reflect on what I want. I appreciate that. I do feel lonely in that there are some big things happening for me at work, and while I have support from friends and colleagues, it is hard to be around H when he's so uninterested in what is going on with me. Not just R stuff, but general life stuff. Sometimes he is warm and even affectionate, but he just doesn't have the room to be engaged and interested with anyone except himself. It's easier, actually, to be alone rather than to live with someone who I am invisible to - and it gives me the chance to become more visible to myself - if that makes sense.
I am standing at the moment - I think I would R with him if he was in a place where he could consistently and sincerely offer that - and I know he is not at the moment, though I think he would like to be and if I believe what he says, he plans to get himself into that place in a couple of month's time. I don't bank on that, and I don't bank on still wanting to be available to him when or if that happens. He knows that. So I guess we'll see. And yes - I think as for you, with me it will happen naturally. I am moving forward and leaving a space for him. If that space gradually closes up around his absence, I think it will happen naturally and it will be sad but it will be healthy too.
Thanks for putting into words so much of what I've been thinking about these last couple of weeks. It's great to hear fro you. I'm glad you're not in a dark place. I guess we will all be in those dark places again but journalling as we do here helps us remember that they pass.
Wow, you seem to be in a great place, given the circumstances.
It sounds like you are truly reaching a place of detachment, a place where you are confident you will be okay regardless of what happens.
I hope I get there. No matter how much I try, I can’t seem to shake my emotional connection to my W.
I love your acceptance, FS, and the distinction between moving forward and moving on.
Sorry it's taken me a while to respond. Thanks to all for piping in. It really does help to know that I am not alone in this.
Adam - My H is quick to anger. He has terrible road rage and is the first to complain when he feels an injustice has been done to him or the children. But this is always in the safety of the car or at home where no one can retaliate. Outwards, he projects reasonableness and control. He has not brought it up other than in passing. I responded "I forgot" and that was it. When I say he is trying to control his temper, I know that if that conversation had happened and I was there, the anger would have come up, but he would have pushed it back down. I know that this is not a good thing, but at the same time it shows that he is starting to care about my feelings or he cares what I think.
Alison - D12 wasn't conspiring with H, it was more of an "haha he's made at you again". She has learned not to get anxious when he gets mad at me. It doesn't effect her anymore because it doesn't affect me. She finds it funny. This is a good sign. They don't see danger in it anymore.
Dilly - the distinction was made by DnJ. His thread is in the MLC forum. I joined this community after reading his thread. He is a man of infinite patience in the face of crazy. If you get a chance read his thread do. It often reminds me of what unconditional love really means.
Paco - you are too hard on yourself. You are detached. You can be detached and still love. I didn't think you could be detached and still hold out hope - and sometimes I still falter, but it's possible.
DV - always always great to hear from you. There have been times when, given I don't know you, you have been my truest friend. Keep on moving on. I am thoroughly enjoying reading of your adventures.
Journaling
I met H and the girls in London Friday evening. He had bought tickets to the England football (soccer for the non-English on here) which was playing that night. D9 had said she didn't want to go so I offered to take her for the night (it was his night) and instead he took one of D12's friends. Anyway, I took D9 to watch Aladdin in the west end and we had a brilliant night together. I got tickets close to the front and she giggled and smiled through the whole thing. I think I spent more time watching her the watching the show, but tbh, I enjoyed watching her be happy more than I would have enjoyed the show. It is watching the world through the eyes of someone who still sees wonder in it. We all met back at the station after the game/show and headed home together. I sat across from H and pretty much just fell asleep. There was some conversation but I was actually pretty tired. When we got back to the station he offered to drive me back to where I had parked my car, but as he too had parked a fair distance from the station (15 mins) I said I would just head off on my own. It was weird watching my family walk in the opposite direction to me. He was more upset than me and said "Don't be stupid by the time you walk to your car, I could have driven you there" but, honestly, I just wanted to get away.
Saturday I was on my own most of the day. I decided to go in to town and grab a bite to eat and browse the stores. I stopped at a book store and bought a book of poetry (to read whilst I was eating lunch) and also had my nails done. Afterwards, I went to H's flat and spent an hour with the children (I texted him in the morning to see if it would be OK if popped around) as he was having them overnight Saturday too.
That night a girlfriend came over who is going through a very messy D. She is one of the mums at D9's and her H has been having an affair for about six months. Everyone knows and it has gotten very messy (the A was with another mum). He moved out last week and last night was the first time he was having their kids over night. She does not want him back, but the sitch has taken its toll, she is emotionally and physically broken. Despite knowing that she does not want him back, she fears the same things we all fear: being alone; the damage to her children; having to sell her home. Anyway, we talked late into the night about forgiveness, moving on, staying strong, and the importance of maintaining a equilibrium for the children. All things I learned here.
Football today. H came round before hand and spent an hour here and then we all went to football. It was a fair drive away and we spoke about my friend who came over. He cannot understand what her H is doing. He is disgusted. He worries about the kids. He mentioned MLC and depression and that her H is trying to escape because he feels inadequate and disappointed with his life (he was fired from work two years ago and has been unemployed ever since). It was ironic. But it was conversation. So that's positive.
Not much else to report. I have the girls this evening so I am going to cook a cottage pie and after dinner we will all sit in with a video and popcorn. It will be a good night.
Sorry for the many posts but I wanted to share the below. Whilst reading the book of poetry (in the coffee shop) I started to quietly cry to myself. I wasn't sad. The words just resonated with me. Must have looked like a crazy person, but honestly, some of it really hit home.
I wanted to share the below for all of us who were so broken that we didn't think we could make it, then found that we had the strength to do so.
Ghost Story
Nikita Gill
Ask me my favourite ghost story
and I will tell you the one
about your haunted house heart
still housing all the people you used to be.
The child inside you
you thought life had taken
the person who was full of joy
that tragedy had broken.
You imagined they had left you
that those parts of you
that made you incandescent
and valuable are gone.
What no one ever told you
was that nothing ever really dies
not if it matters to you
your memories keep it alive.
It is the law of the universe
that even ghosts understand
as long as they matter to someone
they still exists and in your heart they stand.
Ghosts of the person you used to be
are so proud of who you are
they live on inside of you applauding you
for living on despite your scars.
I love that poem, FS. It made me feel a bit emotional too.
That is a beautiful poem, so appropriate to many of us here.
I can identify with the anger thing, I think both I and the kids were scared of dh's anger for so long. And you're right that him controlling it is a sign that he doesn't want to hurt you like that any more. Must be a hard habit for him to break, especially for men who are allowed such a limited range of emotions to express...
Thanks for sharing that poem FS. It's beautiful and tugged at my heart.
More so than the poem was the night you described with D9 at the movies. Not many people I see here watch the movies sitting up front anymore. I remember them days as a kid with the BIG screen up in my face. Too many people like to sit middle and back of the theatre. Glad to hear of you two having a blast. A child's laughter is very powerful, medicine for the soul.
London just sounds like a really cool place to be. We live out here in the suburbs of a rather large city in Texas, a lot of traffic and houses.
Good to hear that your H is working on his anger. It isn't easy for sure and the anger just doesn't go away over night. I have faith he'll find better ways at handling it and even then, I'm suspecting he will come to terms with what is worth the energy and what he will need to let go to be happy. What helps is that you don't take it personally. Sometimes if a person is left to stew in their own mess with no one else going to save them (or to take the blame), they get up and get going. As long as you aren't an outlet for that mess, I'm sure things can only get better.
Have a great evening! I am here alone, W took the kids to SIL with the pool so they are enjoying that. I get to turn up the music as loud as I want.
What a beautiful poem FS. Thank you so much for sharing it. I read it a number of times. It really resonated. Thank you, too, for your lovely compliment. You have been a true friend to me as well. I am so grateful for all of the amazing advice and encouragement you took time to pass on to me. It helped me immensely and I am in a much better place and am much happier than I have been in years because of it. Thank you does not seem adequate.
Your H seems to be making some small positive steps. I stand by what I have always felt in your sitch... I think he will find his way back. Much love and (((HUGS))).
Love that poem FS. It says so much, and touched me. Thanks for sharing it.
Adam - I always sit up the front at the movies. A childhood habit that has been inherited by my children. One of the first films I can remember seeing was Star Wars. We were right up the front and my dad let me lie on the floor. When the "In a Galaxy far far away ... " started to scroll up the screen it was simply magical. I have sat up the front ever since. But I took D9 to Aladdin the Musical. The front row was very very expensive so we had to make do with four rows back. It was still magical. Mostly because her eyes were as big as saucers through most of it and her little legs were kicking in excitement.
We are all mostly coasting along in our new normal. Trying to be nice, sometimes failing. A couple of interesting things of note.
One has to do with our dog. My H does not think I take good enough care of her. Since he moved out and I let the Au Pair go our dog no longer gets a daily walk. This is because I leave home at 8 and don't get back until 7 in the evening. On the days I have the kids, our nanny arrives at half one and sometimes walks her and sometimes not (depending on what is on that day). On the days he has the kids, the nanny does not come in, and our dog may be alone from the time I leave to the time I get home. I am often too tired to walk her when I get in. He will sometimes come over on these days and walk her. Well, last week she was only walked once during the week. When I went around to the flat on Saturday to visit the girls he asked me how often she had been walked. I answered truthfully and he replied "If you dont' start walking her more I am going to have to think of alternative arrangements. It's obvious you don't want her". I simply replied "OK". I know I could have validated "I know how you feel ..." but the end of that sentence would go along the lines of "but it is tough to fit in walking [our dog] with 12 hours of work" and it would just have escalated. In any case, I have learned to identify when he is just having a moan and to not get defensive. Just let him carry on and not feed the fire.
The other is to do with D12. She has been suffering with a migraine and tiredness all week and has been away from school since Monday. Monday morning he came round to take them to school. I mentioned that D12 had a migraine and was looking a little under the weather and D9 had been complaining of a tummy ache. He looked at me, said "I don't need this, I am going to wait in the car. You're supposed to have them ready when I get here". I was a little taken a back and told him they were ready, I just thought he'd want to know his children were unwell. He looked shocked, and then went upstairs to see to D12. I let D12 stay home Tuesday and Wednesday. Today, they are both home and he is watching them until I return at lunch time (I am doing a half day). I did suggest on Tuesday morning asking his mum if she minded coming round for a bit but he said not to as his mum would only moan at him about my leaving D12 on her own and then moan at him about being 'obliged' to come visit. This one is weird. Normally, he would have loved having that conversation with his mum. Not because it was moaning about me, but because he and his mum are very similar. They love to judge and criticize other people but not say it to their faces. It kind of suggests he doesn't want to hear her moaning about me. It's either his bored with moaning about me to her or he is starting to see things from my side. I do not think this is the road to R but it does suggest less resentment.
Anyway, off to work. I am already late.
Gosh he sounds hard work. I think you're handling it very well. His children and the house and the responsibility for the dog can be shared, and it sounds like you are doing everything it is possible for you to do. He can moan and criticise, or he can take the dog, or he can hire a dog walker, or he can do something else that suits him. It sounds like you have a lot on your plate and you are doing your best. It isn't realistic to expect a family life to carry on totally as normal when one of the adults is not there.
I don't like the idea of him checking up on you - asking how often the dog had been walked. It feels like a very parent-child interaction, him wanting to know if you'd done your chores. But perhaps it wasn't like that, and I'm just reading that into it as I know that dynamic so well from my own interactions. In any case, I think you handled it assertively.
So not only do you have to work 12 hour days and be the perfect mother, you also have to walk the dog? Wow, slightly too high expectations of you? A dog walker would be a really good idea though, it can't be good for the dog to be left alone and unwalked all day. Can your D12 walk the dog if you can't afford a dog walker? You do have a lot on your plate, him being critical without offering help or solutions is very unhelpful of him. The stuff with his mum is interesting.
Dilly/Alison, firstly, happy Mother’s Day. I hope you we’re able to spend a drama free day with your kids.
Alison - he can be hard work. But distance and time has let me see it for what it is, his way of gaining control. I no longer tip toe around him nor do I shrink when he speaks. Blah blah blah walk the dog, blah blah blah never on time blah blah blah the world is in crises and it’s because you left the lights on. Control. But as it doesn’t effect me, it is just words, it doesn’t matter. Plus, he doesn’t do it as much now. Time and distance may have taught me how to cope, but it has taught him to be less critical of me. He has largely lost his power.
It is in his nature to check up on me. Nosy and suspicious. He has alerts on rightmove whenever our old house goes on sale so that he can see what the subsequent owners have done with it. He sometimes still drives by the old house. He also has alertsnon houses in our street so he can see what they’ve done with it and how much it’s gone for. Has done for years. Not parent child. Just plain nosy. Well, maybe parent child in that he likes to find fault with me. But he always found fault with things neighbors do with their houses “FS, can you believe they painted it [that color]”. Kind of funny looking back.
Dilly - the give the dog away is an idle threat. He would never do it. He can’t take the dog himself because of his job, his mum can’t have her because she goes away on holidays ALL THE TIME. I looked into a dog walker but couldn’t find one - lots of dogs in my area requiring walkers. He walks her when he fancies it but always on his schedule and he’d never pay for a dog walker. He knows he is stuck. He wanted me to give in and say “ok, I’ll walk her before work” but because I didn’t , he over reacted and said something he can’t back up. That’s juvenile but my H all over.
The thing with his mum is interesting because it is true. They are both exactly alike. But I suspect they have gotten to a point in the “FS is neglecting her duties as a mum” conversation where there was nothing new to say. He can’t change things and he is now sick of taking about it. There’s only so much moaning you can do before you have to [censored] or get off the pot.
I am nowhere near supermum but I know I am a damn good one. He can complain and judge all he likes (and tbh, he doesn’t much anymore),but nothing he says is going to change that.
Journaling
Weird couple of days. Thursday I came home at lunch as both girls were ill and my H could only watch them until1:00 as he had to go to work himself. Being a pilot, the option of WFH isn’t really available. I told him when I got in that I would take the girls to a local cafe for lunch and he was welcome to join us. He said he couldn’t then a little while later said his flight was cancelled and he would join us if still ok. I said that was fine. Later, I had an appointment with D9s teacher and D12 had a doctors appointment. He said he would stay and take D12 to the doctors if I took D9 with me to see her teacher. When I got back with D9, they were back from the doctors. He then said he’d take D9 to her tutors if I picked her up. All in all he ended up staying with us until 7:00 that evening. In that time he mowed the lawn, cut back the trees, sorted all the rubbish and tidied D9s wardrobe.
Friday we both went to D9s school show in the morning. We sat together and even smiled a few times whenever D9 did something funny. Afterwards I went for coffee with some of the mums and he headed back to his flat (he was working that afternoon). I got a call at 1:30 saying his flight was cancelled and could he pick up D12 from school and bring her back to the house. I said ok, and they got here at 4:00 and he left around 6:00 - but I suspect only because I had one of the mums coming round for coffee (he left when she arrived).
Saturday he was flying and I took the girls shopping and to the movies. He asked if he could come round on his way back to the flat to drop cards off. We weren’t here when he got here so he to the dog for a walk. He stayed about half an hour and then left.
Today was mother’s day. When D12 woke up she came downstairs with the cards, a big bunch of flowers and a present. He had obviously dropped all these off last night. The present was a bracelet from Swarovski. Not super expensive but not cheap and definitely not expected. I sent him a text saying thank you and that it was very thoughtful. He replied saying no problem, glad I liked it and that he hoped we had a nice lunch. The girls and I went to lunch together and after we all went round his mums for dinner. Dinner was a little awkward. We spoke directly to each other a few times but I noticed that even when talking to me he wouldn’t look at me. He would look at his mum or one of the children but he was talking to me. It was strange.
I know this post is full of my H. I had a lovely weekend and am honestly not spinning. I am just trying to understand what’s going on. This is not the behaviour of two people who have been separated for a year.
I know this post is full of my H. I had a lovely weekend and am honestly not spinning. I am just trying to understand what’s going on. This is not the behaviour of two people who have been separated for a year.
I'd say this very much IS the behavior of two people separated for a year - because you're living it!
I was fascinated that you wrote about how H is less critical of you now, because that's exactly what I was just reflecting on with having just seen W. The space changes the dynamic, doesn't it? Plus we are changing as individuals. The little snubs and digs don't send us spinning. Perhaps your H is changing in some small ways too.
It sounds like the space you two have taken has really redefined your interactions.
What a lovely Mother's Day gift as well - that was very thoughtful of him.
Happy Mum's Day FlySolo
I wonder what your husband would do if you started dating other people FS? It looks from here like he's frightened of losing what he has. Some interesting changes there...
That sounds positive, in a confusing sort of way, Fly Solo. It seems like, despite his working arrangements and the fact he's living elsewhere, that he's a present and committed father. At least there's that.
Do you think he knows you would like to R? Or he worries you're moving on and he's testing the water?
Journaling
We went to D12's first counselling session together today. She has known for some time that the session was booked, and overall has been OK with it, but went into complete meltdown today. Both girls stayed at their dads last night and when he brought them around earlier, he asked me to have a word with her. He told me she wanted to see the referral letter from the doctor because she didn't believe she had to go. The referral letter went along the lines of "D12 came to see me about reoccurring stomach pain. Her parents have separated and her mother feels D12 may benefit from psychological assessment" so I refused to show her the letter. He agreed (apparently he didn't know that that is what the letter said).
After what happened the last time we saw a counsellor about D12 he was petrified of the counsellor wanting to speak to us alone. He is on some level, still not ready to talk about us .
Anyway, after many tears D12 agreed to go stating that she was 'going to sit in silence' for the whole hour. It was OK in the end. He asked her some questions about school, about home etc. She was a little withdrawn, but we taught her to be polite so she answered, albeit in a guarded way. After the initial discussion, he asked H and I to leave so he could speak with her alone. When they were done, he asked both of us to come back in and D12 whilst D12 sat with the receptionist. I saw her walking towards the receptionist and commented "I think she's been crying". He replied "She wouldn't cry in front of a stranger".
We sat down and the counsellor said that she is grieving for her family. Cue H body language becoming more defensive. He said "Yes, that and because she's 12 and just started high school". The counsellor agreed, but that the biggest factor was the separation. He said she started crying almost immediately after we left the room. He said that she needs to talk to people and doesn't feel safe doing that with us. We should put in place some "sleep hygiene" practices (using soft colored lights at night, sending her to bed 30 mins before bed time, no phones in her room etc) as well as a natural sleeping aid. By this time H had gone quiet. The counsellor left to fetch D12, and I said this is a good idea, D12 needs to feel safe and needs certainty. He said she knows what's going on ... that "we're not getting back together". This is the first time he has ever we aren't getting back together. When he left it was "I am unhappy and think I should move out". The few times we've discussed it since he moved out (last time was back in Oct) he said "I don't think I'm coming back".
I didn't react. I just said "I know" and left it at that. That was at 3:00. He has only just left the house and it is nearly 8:00. He has been pottering about and once there was no potting left to do, he has been sitting with the children whilst they played on the Xbox. I have been upbeat but mainly kept out of his way - I am WFH so had a good excuse to stay in the office and then went to my room to do some yoga. He told me he is going to the gym and will be back at 8 tomorrow to look after the kids. They are on holidays and he is taking them away for two nights to a theme park.
He spent yesterday here with them, pottering around whilst they played. Cake eating definitely but in the meantime he has cleared the garden and sorted through one of the sheds. He doesn't want to sell the house, so this is not in 'readiness' - I think it is more about feeling like he has to 'do something' whilst he is here.
D12 has been pretty good all week. I have seen her smiling more in the last couple of weeks then in the months proceeding. There has been giggling and in jokes. Dinner with them has been a pleasure and she has sat with D9 and I just watching movies and hanging out.
On the weekend when he brought them back to pick up football gear for D12, she had a little mini meltdown because I could not find the right football shorts. I had checked the wash, taken everything out of her and D9's drawers all to no avail. He went rummaging through her wardrobe muttering "why didn't you text me to let me know you you couldn't find her shorts". I simply said "This is not my fault" and went to comfort D12. He found her shorts (they were in her old football boot bag at the bottom of her wardrobe) and she eventually left happy. But not after he lectured her (loudly) on being ridiculous, letting the team down, getting herself organized etc. All valid points but pointless when she is curled up in a ball on my bed whilst he finger points and shouts.
I am in a fairly good place. I am much more 'relaxed' around us then he is. My body language is open but not pursuing. I offer cups of tea, ask him how his day was, wish him well when he goes. I engage in conversations about work, about things happening on the news, about the children. I smile and laugh a lot. This isn't forced - it is all genuine. I am genuinely not phased by our sitch. I even sent him a text earlier today asking if it would be OK to have lunch with them before D12's session. As an aside, once we were there I said "I'll pay for mine if you get the girls". This is what he said to me last time we went out to lunch - the lunch was on my time with the girls, so it was my responsibility to pay for them. It threw me a little (what, he can't even buy me lunch) so I said the same thing to him today. He looked at me strangely then went "Ok" and proceeded to ask the girls what they wanted.
He continues to be weird when I do something he doesn't like. I had left my car at the station two nights in a row, and when he asked me why I said "I had a drink after work" - I hadn't but didn't want to get into the conversation. He huffed and then five minutes later said "I spoke to mum about taking [the dog]. I will discuss it with you later" then left. He likes to 'punish' me. That conversation was three days ago, and only the second time since saying that he 'would need to make alternative arrangements' weeks ago. He has not "discussed it with me later". Today, when talking about summer holidays plans, I mentioned (in addition to taking the kids away) I might go away on my own whilst he takes the kids on holidays and he replied "you will need to sort out dog sitting for [our dog]". The same dog that his mum is going to take.
Anyway, I wanted to reiterate (for my own sake) some of the mantra's that I have learned here:
1. Marathon not sprint - patience is key (use the time to work on myself)
2. They are in a fog - don't listen to what they say, only what they do (taking the dog away, saying he isn't coming back)
3. Look for signs of consistent change (he is nicer than he used to be, but there is still anger simmering away beneath the surface).
I have to remember this is a long process. When times are tough and I feel like giving up, then I have to just let things be. Any big decisions need to be made when I am calm and not as a reaction to something he has said or done.
Wow, FS, what a lot of moving pieces. I'm glad to hear D12 is accessing some external support on your insistance. I hope it proves to be helpful. Is she a writer, or does she journal?
You're in a great space to be able to hear your H say is not coming back but to not let it derail you. Good on you for taking a deep breath and just moving forward in a way that is best for you.
Thinking of you!
FS that sounds hard - really hard. You're so methodical and calm the way you write it all down - the way you have a handle on your own reactions, and some understanding of where your H might be in his head, and not taking what he says or does too seriously. I wish I had your steadiness. How on earth do you do it?
Do you know what he's actually angry at? Obviously there's these insignificant whinges about the dog and the football shorts etc, but do you have any clear sense yet of what the real underlying cause is?
You've got a lot going on FS. I've read the last several posts to catch up. I admire how you handle the interactions with H, and find it fascinating he seems to spend a lot of time at the house but wants to reconfirm he "isn't coming back". Sounds like he is very conflicted. Reading your sitch makes me wonder if I have it in me for the marathon. I think I do, but with all I know about H now, not so sure I would ever in a million years be able to trust him again. Only time will tell.
Hugs
Yail - it was on both of our insistence. She has been missing a lot of school (tummy aches, headaches) and for some time has been silent and withdrawn. When this happened last year, my H didn't want to hear about it. But even he can now see there are problems, although not yet willing to accept his part in those problems. One of the reasons I am keen on her seeing a counsellor is she has no outlet for her emotions. She doesn't journal and she doesn't talk to her friends about us separating. It has been over a year and she has only told one friend and that was fairly recently. She didn't tell her friend how she felt about it, just told her matter of factly (the friend told her mum who told me). She has a strong sense of what a family is (she gets that from her dad) and him moving out shattered that. She is grieving and doesn't know how to deal with it. I forget that I am not the only one whose heart was broken.
Alison - I am methodical because I am writing. Writing helps me to process and makes me look at the reasons as opposed to the actions. Also, because it comes out structured and rational, doesn't mean I am not a hot mess on the inside. There are times when it takes every fiber of self control not to scream "just [censored] off", or to fall in a heap at his feet and beg him to come back. I am the girl who goes into the toilet, cries silently in front of the mirror, wipes away the tears and walks out like nothing happened. But I am getting better. Things that use to throw me in a spin no longer do. Journaling helps with that - it forces you to look at the why, not just he did this, and then I did that blah blah blah.
The anger is mostly because he has not done the work. He was depressed when he left and thought leaving would resolve that. It hasn't brought him the happiness he sought (which is why he is always here and always with the firls) because the unhappiness is internal. Also, much like our house, he still feels some 'ownership' over me, and the more I take control, the more 'angry' he becomes. He can't deal with this (because he left and he knows I can now do wtf I like) so he finds other things to be angry about (the lost football shorts, my not cleaning the bird poo of my car fast enough, not picking up the dog poo etc) or punish me (taking the dog away, saying "I'm NOT driving you to the station anymore").
Grace - I've been following a long with you too. Trust is a weird thing. When I caught my H out on a date I thought I would never forgive him and even if he wanted to come back, I could never trust him again. After thinking about (and again, mine was not the only heart broken when we split up) he was lonely, sad and thinking dating would take the pain away - dating should be what he is doing because that's what people do when they separate. I have thought the same a thousand times. Join a dating site, see what the world has to offer, your marriage is over. But, it wouldn't suit me. And it doesn't suit him. I am not saying my H and your H are the same. Only you know your H and his motivations and only you know what you will put up with.
Having said all that, in all honesty, I don't know if I could trust him ever again. Not with the seeing other people. He is not and has never been a 'player'. But I don't know if I could trust him not to hurt me again. I guess I will cross that bridge when I get to it.
Hi FS. Just getting caught up on our sitch. So glad you got a counsellor for D12. Even though a counsellor can’t “fix” what is ailing her, sometimes having a neutral person to talk to is all a kid needs. I have one kid who I see every week who doesn’t really have much in the way of mental health problems but she comes from a family that always seems in turmoil for one reason or another. When she comes in, she reports to me how her week went and if something is bothering her, she tells me about it and I help her put it into perspective and problem solve. If you had asked me, I would have said that I really don’t do a whole lot with her. However, her mom (who has a reputation for being difficult) left me a message on my voicemail telling me that her appointment with me is the highlight of her week and when she comes home after talking to me, it is like 100 pounds has been lifted off her shoulders. Hopefully it will do the same thing for your daughter.
Reading your account of your interactions with your H is kinda hard to read sometimes FS. I’m not sure what is going to shake your H out of his inertia. I really feel like that as long as you keep doing what you are doing, he is just going to keep doing what he is doing. I know that you are standing and I really admire your resolve in a lot of ways. And...I also know that we only read what you choose to tell us so our picture may not be accurate. I have to say it though... you deserve sooooo much better... you really do. You deserve to have some happiness in your life and to be with someone who appreciates all of your great qualities. Is that your H? It’ s not right now...was he that way before? IDK how you do it, TBH... living in limbo. I know you are awesome at GAL activities and have found some level of happiness in your day-to-day life but your H just seems to be ever present and keeping you from really investing in this new life of yours. What do you think would happen if you truly let him go or enforced some boundaries... i.e. a legal separation agreement, pushing the house sale, etc... something that tells him you are truly moving on...with or without him. Would it break his inertia?
IDK about dating and seeing what is out there wouldn’t suit you. I think it would if you truly made the decision to do it. But it definitely wouldn’t if you weren’t sure it was something you wanted to do. I know it has made a HUGE difference for me. Not because I found a “replacement” for my H or because I’ve fallen “in love”... I haven’t done either of those things... but because it has reminded me that there are a lot of great people out there and that I am someone who deserves to have someone great in my life... and I deserved better than what my STBXH was willing or able to give...for whatever reason. When someone treats you poorly and emotionally abandons you instead of trying to work it out with you, do the reasons even really matter? Anyway...I know that I will eventually find that person and I am hopeful that, given what I know now, I will not repeat the mistakes that I did with my STBXH. I will listen to my gut...I will not sacrifice my conscience for my heart or vice versa. I know your path is not necessarily the same as me FS but I do need to tell you that I think tif you decide to test the waters and meet other guys (and you get to decide who and how and when), It will help you move forward...not necessarily move on... but move forward towards whatever life has in store for you.
Sending you much love and many, many (((HUGS))).
FS - your H's anger reminds me a lot of mine, back when we lived together. I don't have that so much any more, but I don't know if that's because he's got past it (unlikely - it's only been four months and he hasn't done any IC or much self reflection as far as I am aware) or just because we're not ever in the circumstances where he's displeased by how I've stacked the dishwasher or how clean the kids' rooms were, etc. I asked him - many times - what the real issue was underneath all the criticism and nit-picking, and it was always some version of my fault - but in the end I think he was angry because he didn't feel like he mattered. Now, the man had a point and there were lots of things I could have and should have done, and that I want to do, to help him know that he matters to me. But I also need to promise myself I will never live with the daily drip drip drip of his anger and criticism ever again. It was unbearably toxic. I'm still on red-alert when it comes to his anger (as you've noticed in my thread) and I suppose my own experience is why I pick up on your H's anger so easily. My IC said that under anger is almost always blame, and blame is a way of making sure that the other person has to change and you can carry on doing exactly what you were doing.
I wonder if more boundaries are needed. If he's left and he's decided he isn't coming back, then perhaps he needs to be in the house less, and he's responsible for taking care of the girls at his own place, or taking them out. It sounds like he has the best of both worlds at the moment. If you considered the marriage over, how would your day to day life and interactions be different?
I wish you and your children the best.
Hi FS
I will just caveat with what I am about to say with the fact that I brought up 3 boys. I had to teach them not to belch and break wind in public, wash their rugby kit and throw soap at them every now and again!
All that being said, I was a girl once. Kids thrive with defined boundaries and consistency. Separation of parents is going to be traumatic to the vast majority of kids. I also believe that kids have got the greatest ability to heal within a defined safe place.
Your domestic situation is complicated and I wonder if your D is struggling to understand what it actually is. No doubt she will have spoken to other kids about separation and divorced parents, but then she looks at yours and it doesn't fit into the same pattern.
I'd wager that very few 'separated couples' have a limbo quite like yours. But does that limbo also put kids in limbo from starting their healing process too? Someone will know better than me, and you are getting the right help for her. Perhaps when the IC says the separation is hurting her, it may be the uncertainty and lack of definition that is also confusing her. FS, you are a superb intelligent parent and you will figure it out.
Now, as for H. We could put forward a few suggestions based on his statement that he isn't coming home:
He's a coward that can't state his intentions
He's such a nice guy that he wants to let you down gently
He's being the ultimate control freak
He's keeping the peace, keeping you dangling until something better comes along
He's waiting for you to stop all your bad behaviour and then he'll work on his
He'll change his mind and hope that you don't notice he hasn't done any work on himself
He never meant it at all
etc etc
or all of the above.
There is no point in any of us trying to mind read. It is what it is in HIS head. He hasn't shown much inclination to work on anything. So no, don't judge him on what he says, but what are his actions telling you? I think he's sitting as happy as Larry. He doesn't want to live with you and so he doesn't. He wants to see his family whenever it suits, and he does. If he wants to mow the lawn and walk the dog, he will. He wants all the perks AND the freedom of not being married.
My grandfather used to have a saying and it applies to your H "either pi** or get off the pot"
I fully admire you FS if this is what you want and have decided to stand for as long as it takes. You are a GAL guru, a strong minded intelligent career woman. But you are frightened of something I think. I agree with DV6, you deserve so much more than this.
I get it. I still catch myself worrying about doing something that will gain disapproval from H. And I definitely don't want the f***wit back. So then I tell myself, so what if it angers him, not my problem anymore, I'll do what's right for me and only me. I guess it was a learned habit after 30 years together and it did influence my decision making skills.
Perhaps there is an opportunity for you both to 'get off the pot' You could still stand and have some more defined boundaries. You need some distance I think. You mention about ' the more I take control' Perhaps you now need to have FULL control of you.
Hi FS,
I so wish I had found your thread sooner—our situations have a lot of similarities! I’ve been reading, trying to catch up on yours as quickly as I can, haha. You are being super strong. My H moved out May 2018. We have a 3 year old daughter, and we have been in limbo all this time. Similarly, he comes here to see our daughter several times a week and does things around the house, has a laugh with me, tells me about work, etc. But says he isn’t coming back.
Just in the last couple weeks he has started talking about moving forward with divorce, and it’s been devastating. I’ve been so patient and done so much work in IC. Anyway, I’ve recently been wondering (with a pit in my stomach) if things might be different at this point if I’d taken detaching and distancing a step or two further. Maybe I should have made him feel he was actually losing me/us sooner?? I don’t know if it would have helped, and I’ll be trying it now regardless. But thought I’d share the thought with you in case...
Stand strong there FS. Keep shining for the girls. They need your guiding light.
Just detach some more, no expectations. H must do his inner work, but it’s up to him. No time to wait. Time to keep moving forward.
(((((Lot of hugs for the three girls)))))
DV - D12 has taken this really hard. But like her parents, she bottles it all up and pretends everything is OK, whether because she doesn't want to upset us, or because she has learned that stoic is the way to deal with things. In any case, having a safe environment to talk will hopefully allow her to work through some of her emotions. As an aside, that is what this community is to me, a safe environment to work through things. I suspect if I had not found it, I would have gone off the rails.
My entries are hard to read because it is the same thing over and over. For someone who feels deeply the way you do, who has come to care about me, well, you see me get knocked down, get back up, put the pieces together, only to be knocked down again ... well, you just want an end to the pain I am going through. I understand and I know. I feel the same reading other sitchs here.
I know dating would throw my H in a spin, but I don't know if it would jolt him into coming back. I suspect he would retaliate. He would rather burn it all down than lose. His response to my going out for a quick drink after work (on a night he had the girls) ... "I am going to look at alternative housing arrangements for [our dog]". In any case, I know I am not ready, and dating someone to make my H jealous is not something I feel is right. Dating was right for you. You were ready. You were not doing it to get a rise out of your STBXH but as part of project 'get my life back'.
In the same way reading my entries are hard for you, reading your entries are the highlight of my morning commute.
Alison - I think you re right - the time has come for boundaries. Like I said above, my H will retaliate and I need to come up with a way that minimizes that retaliation. I am thinking of writing an email (which I'll post here) around limiting access to the house. This I think does three things: allow me to take control of my environment, be less confusing for the children (and that's to DV's point above re D12 being confused about our status) and may make him realise that he is losing me. It limits his cake eating. It will need to be balanced, with lots of validation, and co-parenting statements so he doesn't feel under attack and focuses on the children - so it may take a while to construct.
Yorkie - I have not mind read too much (I think). It is impossible not to go there ... but I pull myself back. There has been a shift in my attitude in the last few weeks. I've finally got the balance between cold detached and just detached (I know, it's about f**g time). I can talk to him without worrying about what I am saying. I am even asking him questions about his life without us. Nothing intrusive. "How has you're weekend been?" - a normal question I would ask any work colleague on any Monday morning, but was too scared to ask my H six months ago for fear he thought I was prying. Funny, you use the quote from your grandfather. I was thinking the same thing yesterday - when I was composing the 'boundaries' email in my head.
I am still standing. I am trying to work out how to stand and still set boundaries. I am getting there I think.
BTW - your H was a f**wit. I think you had unconsciously stood down before you joined the forum - you just needed to know it rather than feel it.
Hope - I will catch up on your sitch today. Limbo [censored]. There is no two ways about it. But, if you change your mindset, it can also be time and space to heal. For now, find the small joys where you can. Find your voice again and learn to laugh again. This is what I did and still do.
Neff - thank you. I am so grateful for my girls. It has been tough for them but I think my H and I have guided them through as best we can. I think both of us have learned the importance of being present when we have them, because we both miss them so much when we don't. That is something, right?.
Expectations went out the window a long time ago. It is the small unexpected things that keep drawing me back. [Censored] men.
Thank you all for reading and piping in. I know I've been pretty rubbish lately with helping on your sitchs. Offering support on other threads has always helped calm me down so I will try and catch up on some of them today.
Boundaries are the most difficult thing - being able to act in your own and your children's best interests without the fear of anger or retaliation - which is a very justified fear in your case - is really really hard. I don't think I am anywhere near it myself, and I need to get there for my own development and for a good MR if that ever happens for me. Perhaps the session with the counsellor where he could see and hear that DD was really struggling with the separation and the limbo, and his own statement that he was never coming back - means that it is the right time for you to have private space in your home and he will be, perhaps, more receptive to it? He probably is going to be angry and retaliate, but if he really is losing you, then it is time for you not to care about that, and instead to care about the safe space you need to make for yourself and your children. Easier said than done, I know.
Alison - I think you're right. Maintaining that balance of keeping the candle in the window and not being a doormat is a difficult one. I came here largely because I read the lighthouse story in one of the threads - my retelling of it would not do the author justice, but it read to me as needing to be their lighthouse whilst they are out there navigate the storms of their own emotions. I felt then, as I do now, that he was lost and the best thing I could do was stand still, a kind of safe house, whilst he worked his [censored] out.
Right now, it feels more like doormat than lighthouse ...
I think we both not that he will not be receptive to being denied access to 'his house'. I have spent most of the day drafting and redrafting the email to him. I think email would be best - that way, I am not within yelling distance, and I can avoid his initial reaction (anger), quickly followed by reasons why I am in the wrong, and finally (hopefully), once he has had time to process it, a little bit of objectivity.
Quick question - I have just discovered that he has taken marriage certificate and our wedding videos. They were in a plastic shopping bag at the bottom of my closet. I know we need them (to prove we are married) in order to put the divorce papers through, but as I would not stand in the way of a divorce, I can't see why he took them. And he does not have a video player (who has one of those anymore?). I am not that bothered that he took them, it bothers me more that he was in my bedroom, snooping around my closet !!!
Well, you need to have a talk with him so as to refresh some boundaries. Respect comes first.
No matter the sea state, the lighthouse is always shining.
Taking the marriage certificate and wedding videos is strange. Are you positive? I guess the certificate doesn't matter - you can always order a replacement one from the registry office if you need it for anything or want to file yourself. The videos are stranger. It seems a weirdly sentimental thing to do. Or perhaps he wanted to you see he'd taken them in order to have some kind of emotional effect on you? Who knows. He probably doesn't know himself. But yes - he might co-own the house with you, but you are entitled to privacy in your bedroom and security in your belongings. Are you going to post your draft email here for feedback before you send it?
The email is still being drafted in my head - I will post here before I send it. I am too scared to see it in print so am procrastinating ... not sure why I am scared. It makes it more real I guess.
I asked him about the marriage certificate and videos. He said he found them when he was looking for D12's football gear and has put them in the cupboard with the other photos. There were also some photos in there of him when he was younger (before we met). He took those home with him.
Still in invasion of privacy.
I took down all the photos of us the day he MO and put them in the closet. He took these with him the next day. I assume they are still in a box under his bed. He is very sentimental.
Ok here goes ....
Dear H
I am sorry it has taken me a while to write this. It has taken some time to process things in my own head.
I am sorry you feel that we will not get back together. I wanted you to know that I understand. I will not stand in your way.
I also know you have not done any of this to hurt me. You have only done what you think is right given the circumstances. I know you have been hurt too. I see and appreciate the kindnesses and the little gestures you have made to make this less painful for me. It has been a difficult balance, being kind whilst not offering hope, so I am grateful you tried.
There was so much emotion when you left that neither of us could see what was right and what was wrong. There was just so much pain.
I was watching a movie the other day and someone gave their ex wife (on the day of their divorce) "If only we were strangers again". There was a poignant sadness to it. Two people who could have done better, who wanted to do better but could not. They could not change the past. There was too much damage.
They say that time is a great healer. With time the raging emotions subside and we are able to look at things more objectively. If that is the case, then time has been my friend. I have been able to look at our marriage objectively and see my role in the breakdown of it. I am neither 100% victim or 100% perpetrator. There was truth in some of the things you accused me off - I recognize these now and am strong enough to be facing those things head on. Now that I know you are not coming back, I will continue to face those things and challenge myself.
But time can only do so much. Distance is times companion, and now distance is what we need in order to move forward in a healthy way.
It is not healthy for you to come and go from the house in the way you have been. I know it is still your house, but it is my home. Most spouses when they leave the family home forfeit the key.
I deserve privacy in my home. There is no reason you should be in my bedroom, much less in my closet and even less reason to be looking at the contents of a random plastic bags at the bottom of my closet. If the situations were reversed, I know you would feel the same.
H, you moved out over a year ago so this is no longer your home.
This extends to when you have the children. You should be having the children at your home. I know it is difficult. It seems so much easier to just look after them here but you must recognise that it is not healthy. It is confusing for them and it is confusing for me.
I do not mind you coming to walk [the dog]. If you could give me back the bottom key, and then let me know when you are coming round to walk her, then I will leave the bottom lock unlocked.
I would like you to remove yourself from the camera at the door. There is no reason for you to have this anymore.
I hope you can see that I am not writing this out of spite or as a reaction to you saying you're not coming home. These are practicalities that will allow us to move forward.
Love
FS
------------
Thoughts?
This is very gentle and kind and heartfelt, FS.
More experienced people will give you feedback, but I wonder if you need to get rid of the first six paragraphs. They're about your marriage. And really, the message here is about his conduct to do with the house. You're setting a practical boundary. The marriage and the practicalities of co-parenting while separated feel like separate things to me, though I can't quite put my finger on why. It also reads to me like you want to soften his heart or placate him so he will do what you want (stay out of the house) when a message from a position of strength might be more along the lines of, 'I've thought deeply about our experience with DD's counsellor the other day - both his feedback about her difficulty adjusting to our separation and your feedback that you plan never to come back. With both of these things in mind, I think it is better for both DD and for me that we formalise contact and access arrangements.' Something more business like and less wifely?
I don't know. This is just my instinct. I think you're trying to write in such a way that he won't be angry with you, and that comes off as a bit weak. He's probably going to be angry with you no matter how you phrase it. Do you know what your fear is specifically?
Validation and boundaries are my downfall ... two things I have never been good at when it comes to H. Plus, he sees me as unemotional and generally lacking in compassion.
This was my attempt to address all of those things. I will re-read and give it another go.
I fear making it real.
FS - I'd like to offer a few thoughts, please take or dismiss as you feel. I'm trying to think of what the "worst case" reactions might be to a few lines, and how your H
might interpret. I think your intent and tone is quite on the mark.
The second portion of the letter dips into telling him how he *should* feel and *should* act. Those are the parts I anticipate being triggering. I'd try to keep it short and sweet. I'd say less is more.
Ok here goes ....
Dear H
I am sorry it has taken me a while to write this. It has taken some time to process things in my own head.
I am sorry you feel that we will not get back together. I wanted you to know that I understand. I will not stand in your way.
I also know you have not done any of this to hurt me. You have only done what you think is what is right for you given the circumstances. I know you have been hurt too. I see and appreciate the kindnesses and the little gestures you have made to make this less painful for me. It has been a difficult balance, being kind whilst not offering hope, so I am grateful you tried.
There was so much emotion when you left that neither of us could see what was right and what was wrong. There was just so much pain.
I was watching a movie the other day and someone gave their ex wife (on the day of their divorce) "If only we were strangers again". There was a poignant sadness to it. Two people who could have done better, who wanted to do better but could not. They could not change the past. There was too much damage.
They say that time is a great healer. With time the raging (will this word trigger him in any way?) emotions subside and we are able to look at things more objectively. If that is the case, then time has been my friend. I have been able to look at our marriage objectively and see my role in the breakdown of it. I am neither 100% victim or 100% perpetrator. There was truth in some of the things you accused me off - I recognize these now and am strong enough to be facing those things head on. Now that I know you are not coming back, I will continue to face those things and challenge myself.
But time can only do so much. Distance is times companion, and now distance is what we need in order to move forward in a healthy way.
It is not healthy for me if for you to come and go from the house in the way you have been. I know it is still your house, but it is my home. Most spouses when they leave the family home forfeit the key.
(You two need to work out what works for you - not compare yourselves to others)
I deserve am asking for privacy in my home. (very clear in what you want/need) There is no reason you should be in my bedroom, much less in my closet and even less reason to be looking at the contents of a random plastic bags at the bottom of my closet. If the situations were reversed, I know think you would feel the same. (consider omitting this. I know you're frustrated, but it's digging into specifics when you are asking for a blanket respectful policy)
H, you moved out over a year ago so this is no longer your home. (repeating)
This extends to when you have the children. You should be having the children at your home. I know it is difficult. It seems so much easier to just look after them here but you must recognise that it is not healthy. It is confusing for them and it is confusing for me.
I do not mind you coming to walk [the dog] (is this a mixed message?) If you could give me back the bottom key, and then let me know when you are coming round to walk her, then I will leave the bottom lock unlocked.
I would like you to remove yourself from the camera at the door. There is no reason for you to have this anymore.
I hope you can see that I am not writing this out of spite or as a reaction to you saying you're not coming home. These are practicalities that will allow us to move forward.
Love
FS
------------
Thoughts?
Does it matter how he sees you right now? I don't think you can change how he sees you - and your aim right now isn't to do that, but to set a boundary regarding your home, right?
Also, I do agree with AlisonUK. If you can make this about practicalities mostly, and indicate these are requests made FOR YOU and YOUR needs - but don't dip into how it's "better" or "worse". No judgement, just a request (well, "request" for now - it might get stronger if he doesn't listen) that the two of you work out this new dynamic.
I agree with Alison and Yail. I like Yail’s re-writes and the reasons for them. The email is written in a very thoughtful FS-like manner. I get what you mean when you say that you fear it FS. I think you it is not only his reaction that you fear but maybe also his non-reaction? Also...that by being the one who places the boundary, he may say that it was your doing. My H did that when I finally told him not to come back until he was sure he wanted to be here because he kept saying he was coming back and then backing out. He thanked me at the time as he said he hoped it would give him clarity...four months later his story was that I had “kicked him out”.
I think you have to do what is best for you and the girls irregardless of what he may or may not do. It is really, really hard but like you said, the limbo you are living in is very confusing for all of you. (((HUGS)))
DejaVu - that's such an insightful comment. I fear saying 'no' to my H too - in case it drives him away completely. It is very very hard to lay a boundary while you still want closeness. And I think women in particular are taught always to say yes to their men, in all kinds of subtle ways, and that conditioning flares when we feel insecure and is there deep down no matter now career orientated and otherwise emancipated we are. You've given me food for thought on my own situation. Thank you.
How are you today FS?
I have decided to wait until after the school holidays to send the email. Procrastination, but he has the children most of the holidays, and it is easier to have them here. I have spoken to him about not entering my bedroom and also taking himself off the camera. He was defensive about both:
"I only went in there because I was looking fro D12's football shorts"
"I don't even look at the camera"
and finally ...
"If you want to take me off the camera you will have to go in as admin and do it yourself. I don't know how too" (knowing full well that it's linked to our electricity and he is the only admin on the account).
I have disabled the camera (for now) and will be putting a lock on my bedroom door this week.
My SIL was just here (the one who is separated from his brother). She mentioned that his brother said H is seeing someone who looks like me. This has to be the girl from back in Oct. She seemed a little surprised that I didn't know but then said his brother told her about a six weeks ago and it could be old information he was relaying. This is a possibility. H would not tell his brother anything private ... he would not tell anyone, and certainly not his brother who he is not close to. It has thrown me in a bit of a spin and I need to process it properly before I make a decision. I have been kept in the dark for so long that I want to make sure I am acting on reliable information and not simply reacting. If he is seeing her that makes at least seven months, which is more than seeing if the grass is greener ... it is a fully functioning relationship.
(((FS))) Really tough to hear information like that... old news or not. Certainly with all the time spent with you and the girls and his work schedule, he can’t be seeing her that much. Still...
Good for you for disabling that camera. For sure he has been looking at it. Send the email when you feel good and ready. (((HUGS)))
FS: that sounds like gossip, I’m not sure whether you should believe any of it, particularly from someone he wouldn’t tell. Maybe you should ask him about it in person? You’re entitled to ask.
The email: I would lose most of those words. Keep it specific and focused on the problems it’s solving: your privacy and D12’s confusion. Those alone are enough to request the boundary. I think maybe you should do it in person though, I’m not sure why given I send lots of stuff like that via text and email. Keep it really short though.
That is very very hard information to receive. It does change things, doesn't it - if it is true. Would SIL have a motivation, do you think, for stirring things up a little? Or getting the wrong end of the stick? Do you need to find out if it is true? I think if he's seeing someone else - not a fling, but a relationship - then perhaps it is well overdue to start setting boundaries around your space that get you out of the limbo and make it clear this space is no longer his home. But then again you were going to do that anyway, weren't you?
My H hates it when I send him long texts and emails. No matter how carefully I word the message he feels overwhelmed by a wall of text, scans it, doesn't take in the information and hardly responds. It is better if I handle things with him verbally, but as concisely as I can. He just does not have the capacity to deal with listening to me right now. So I try to keep conversations about arrangements as brief as possible. Sometimes I say, 'I need to give you some information. When is best?' and that seems to work too.
I have decided to pay the 'gossip' no mind. It is likely old information. He is here too much to have a relationship and if he is having one, then she is a fool, because he is here SO MUCH. What kind of woman is comfortable with a BF who can only see her once every two weeks and always on his schedule. What kind of relationship can it be when he keeps 75% of his life hidden from her.
I have sent my H exactly one relationship email since this all started. It expressed in great detail all my pain and all my longing. He did not respond. It hurt then that he didn't but I know now he simply could not process it. For the longest time (nearly a year) all my texts were quick, to the point, and always logistical. It did not help our situation but was necessary to protect my heart. His were much more friendly. Not flirty friendly - there were never any kisses or questions about my life - but he would put emojis in (others here can tell you how much I used to get wound up by those [censored]g emojis) relating to the children/weather/traffic. Recently, my texts have been more open. I put the odd "hello" in before jumping into the admin question, I might put in a "have a good day" or "hope the children are ok" at the end. We were texting earlier (about the children) and I mentioned I have not been sleeping well (due to work). He suggested some over the counter remedies. Texts not about the children ... wahoo that's got to be a step in the right direction [insert smiley emoji here].
I did the "I don't want you coming into by BR" and "Can you take yourself off the camera" discussion face to fae. This is a big step for me because I do not set boundaries very well (if at all) and in the past, I know I back down when he starts to raise his voice/get defensive, so I would handle all 'difficult' conversations by text (straight to the point, single sentences with no unnecessary words). But I did it in person.
Me: "I need to speak to you. I do not want you going into my bedroom"
Him: "I was only looking for D12's shorts".
Me: "It doesn't matter why. There is only one place I can call mine. Please don't go in there again".
Him: "I wasn't snooping".
Me: "It doesn't matter. Please don't go in there again".
Him: "Ok"
Me: "Also, can you remove yourself from the camera".
Him: "Why? I don't look at it"
Me: "Not the point. You don't need to be on it".
Him: "Well, you will need to go in as admin and remove me. I don't know how to do it".
Me: "Ok".
So, boundary setting and standing up for myself. Go ME !!!
YES go you! It sounds like a great exchange FS. Very good being firm - and he didn't rage! I wish you many more interactions like this. I foresee him listening to you better the first time around with less push-back the more he hears you in rational, calm boundary setting.
I've found myself IRL saying, "You don't get what you don't ask for". Somehow it keeps coming up in my life. But that, to me, is a part of boundary setting too. In addition to identifying in what way you expect to be treated (with RESPECT) - it also is an example of speaking up for oneself.
*****
Sidebar: I read on AlisonUK's thread that you also love standup comedy on Netflix. Me too!!! I swear it has gotten me through. I just saw Amy Schumer's new act. Some of her old stuff was a little raunchy for me, but I did like her new special. Also Ali Wong, Cristela Alonzo.
Have you watched The Marvelous Mrs Maisel?
Sometimes I listen to stand-up on Spotify while getting ready in the morning. Tig Notaro has me in stitches every time. Her delivery is so deadpan that it's pure ridiculous.
I'd love suggestions of your favorites.
I love Jim Jeffries (though probably a little too much of a dogmatic atheist for this website :))
I also like the one with the Australian comedian - can't remember her name at the moment - but you mentioned her before.
Laughter is an excellent way to heal without putting much effort in. Good for the days back when I couldn't get off the sofa.
Hannah Gadsby.
My future Wife.
(So clearly that was a joke - but all my students at work know I adore her and just laugh at me.)
I'm so in love with her. She has another tour coming up this summer and I'm trying to figure out how I can get to a show.
I'll check-out Jim Jeffries! Thanks!
Hi FS,
Thanks for chiming in on my sitch.
I saw that you were in the process of emailing that FS-style letter and got pretty good advice from everyone about it. I had my own opinions and decided to wait to comment(I really didn't want to influence you into doing something you were not ready to do as in confronting your H in person, although I think it was the better thing to do). Seeing as you had the discussion, I want you to know I am happy for you to have set your boundaries in person rather than email. I think many here are/were weak at setting boundaries, which plays its part in this downward spiral we're in. There are some posts from some of the vets around here about that, when to say things in person opposed to texts or emails. We need to be aware of how we come across and our stance. Does this help or hurt, right? It's about respect. Short, concise, in person, and keep it going. You told him, he blah blah blah'd and you took action to disable the camera and then will be changing the lock. I respect that and although he won't like it, he'll respect that. You are not hiding behind a perfectly crafted piece of writing he may or may not respond to well. As others mentioned, people who are uninterested will not appreciate the time and energy spent in considering their feelings in a letter. I guess pending on the person, no matter how well written something is, they'll still find fault in it.
I was also going to say next time he yells at you, you kick him out your house, but I mean to say I hope in time you find the courage to stand up for yourself and drop the fear if/when he does decide to think its right to yell at you.
I know what you mean about the fear. I read a comment from AS to someone else about being careful of what we say to the WAS because they can use that against us. It's like being the one to file for D, allowing the WAS to say they wanted to try and work it out but we didn't want to so filed. In my sitch, you may have recently seen how my W is twisting my words against me, saying because I am moving on its too bad because she now wants to work it out. I let it go at first. Then I made a comment to try and stop that bleeding. I called her bluff, told her I didn't think it was right for her to keep saying that to my face when everything else suggested otherwise. Thing is, the help will be for her... not me. Anyways, this isn't about me but just saying I can relate. W can say I was the one who pushed her away, she is a cheater and liar so what else is new right? She has most likely told people many things about me untrue so what is 1 more lie? Don't sweat it, don't fall for it.
And FS, the thing about OW... you say what kind of woman would spend 25% time with a man? My W stays home almost 90% of the time. She seldomly goes out with other people from work with the off chance this could be OM. Her time to be with OM is at work, juggling that when she works with now 3 relatives, one being an older brother of hers. So she is dealing with a man who is spending less time with her and giving up her family life for that. Does any of this matter though? No. You mentioned to me that I have to be certain there is no longer OM. Between W and I, I think we are far from there. You said you would be spinning if there was a relationship and you opted not to think about it. As much as I want to say we should be doing the same thing regardless of what they are doing, I know this isn't always the case. We are still reactionary. Like those with a very overt cheating Spouse are the ones who detach faster and in full force, this is in itself reactionary. Even being soft and allowing things to happen because we aren't fully exposed to how bad things are with their dealings, its reactionary. I guess maybe I should say a natural response.
You're moving on, don't be afraid to show your H that.
Thanks Adam
I am pretty proud of me. I think the reason he didn't rage is because he knows he is in the wrong and there was no trying to defend his position. He had that look on his face, like the one I get when I know I've been slacking off at work and someone pulls me up on it. I know i've been taking the pee, I was just hanging in there waiting for someone to finally tell me to pull my [censored] together.
He might have read the email (which I still intend to send once the school holidays are done). He will stew quietly in his flat thinking about all the reasons why he has a right to be here. At first he will only read the bits saying he can't be in the house anymore, but unconsciously he will read all of it and it will sink in. Then he will calm down and just quietly do as I've asked. He will start spending time with the children away from the house. He will stop popping by to walk our dog. What he won't do is acknowledge reading the email. He has not mentioned the camera is disabled even though he would have got an email from the provider telling him it was removed from his account.
I definitely feel the winds of change coming in. We have been communicating - not flirty, but more than just logistics. We talk about people we both know, work, the news. Today we exchanged about a dozen texts with light banter in them. I had asked him to look at flights for me and the girls to Mexico. They came out unaffordable so he suggested Ibiza. When I said I was planning on going there with friends when he took the kids away (normally this would result in him having a go at me for "being selfish") he simply replied "Ha ha. The girls and I might run into you as thats where I'm thinking of taking them".
I don't know if it's because I am in a better place, or because my being in a better place takes the pressure off him so he doesn't feel the need to be so guarded and defensive around me, but whatever it is, it is definitely better. I even felt comfortable enough tonight to ask him if I could meet him and the girls for brunch tomorrow (he has them tonight and tomorrow day). He just went sure.
As an aside I caught him looking at my breasts today, I know, TMI, but it was kind of weirdly uncomfortable. I saw him looking, he saw me see him. I pretended not to notice and put one hand over my chest and rearranged my scarf with the other. I am not reading anything into it. I had a low cut top and he is a man. Just funny really. He hasn't looked at me like I'm a person for the longest time. He has always been afraid to look at me in case "it gives me hope".
I don't want to think about OW too much but when I say that he simply does not have time, he simply does not have time. He is a pilot so he is away about 3 - 4 days/nights per week anyway. I know this, I lived with him for 15 years. On any given week, he is either away or he has the children. On the nights he isn't working or doesn't have the kids he is here until 8 in the evening and then back here at 8 the next morning. He might have the odd night where he isn't working or doesn't have the kids, but that's once every two weeks. There is not a lot of room in there for anOW. He has started taking a weeks unpaid every 2 months. On those weeks he has the kids about 4-7 nights. It is crazy how much he wants to have the children with him.
Your W is panicking. The realisation of what she has done is hitting her and (like us at BD) she is trying to hold on. I don't know if you want her back or not. You probably don't know if you want her back or not. I would wait it out, continue building my life and just see if her feelings are genuine through consistent behaviors over a period of time before I would be willing to get back on the crazy train. Are your interactions still weighted, and by weighted, I mean are you both careful what you say, do you read things into each other's gestures etc or are you able to talk naturally with one another now.
Hey FS,
I’ve been experiencing a lot of that kind of chat too. Not flirty, but friendly, about all different kinds of things and people we know, etc. In my thread you had asked me about what I felt were mixed signals I was getting, and this falls into that category for me. It feels so good and comfortable, and made me hopeful.
What is your read on what it may be or mean from your H?
Hi Hope
Honestly, I think it is a combination of things.
He is coming out of the fog and seeing me as a person again. Not the cause of all his misery, not the person he has to 'hide' everything from (there's an interesting comment from AS on how WAW's feel they have to keep everything from us even when there isn't anything to keep secret), not just the babysitter, dogsitter and payer of the mortgage, but as a person. A person with opinions and ideas worthy of having a grown up conversation with.
The other is I am in a much better place than I have been for a long time. I am happy. Instead of looking at the things I've I look at the things I have gained. Time was always a premium for me - I never had enough of it. Now, I have more than I know what to do with and I was always exhausted and anxious. As a result of having more time. I am doing brilliantly at work, I enjoy my time with my children and I have lots of opportunities to GAL. I also get to sleep in the middle of the bed !!!
In any case ... I am detached enough to know I am no longer at the mercy of his emotions/reactions/words. I can ask him "how was your night" without worrying if he thinks I am prying or worried about his response. I've taken the pressure of myself which means the pressure is off of him too.
My H and I are slowly learning to be friends again. It may not be the road to R. I have no expectations and will carry on with my self improvements regardless.
Has your H always been 'friendly' with you?
that all makes a lot of sense to me, and I relate to all of it. My H has def not always been friendly. In the beginning he was cold, distant, sometimes mean, angry and extremely secretive. What you said about the WAS keeping things secret that weren’t secret worthy, that was him for sure. I totally relate to what you say about your H’s fog
Lifting and him seeing you as a person. I think once my H finally recovered from being angry and bitter at me, he was able to remember that he did in fact enjoy talking to me. I saw as a sign that he was coming around to reconciliation for awhile, now I see that it may be that to some degree, and may be other things. I told my therapist that I suppose he really does want to be friends with me. She said, he doesn’t want to be friends—you are family to him. He just doesn’t feel he wants to be married to me.
As you say, it’s an improvement, regardless. I am really trying to internalize what you say about detaching and having no expectations. That has been a lifelong struggle for me, and now is the time of ever there was one.
FS...so glad you set your boundaries and your H paid attention. Also glad you did it in person instead of email. I have sent exactly one email to my STBXH and that was very early on. Mostly because my thoughts and feelings were changing so rapidly that if I wrote anything to him, I knew that I would likely feel differently a week or two later. My sitch is different than yours though as he is living with his affair and buying a house, etc... I remember when he was texting me back in September about wanting to come home and do the right thing but fearing he had dug himself a hole so deep that he couldn’t get out of it. I did not know at the time that he was referring to the second life he had been building with her... I understand it better now. Anyway...my sitch was always going to end this way...yours, I have consistently maintained, has a chance to end differently...hopefully with you back together...in a better R than you had before. It will take time though...and more setting of boundaries cause I really think your H won’t come back unless he truly believes he might lose you. In the meantime, it seems like the new normal is working for you in some ways and maybe that will make it easier to stand for the time you will need. Whatever you decide to do now and in the future, I am, as always, rooting for you and hoping you end up living the life you want and, more importantly, deserve. Lots of love and ((((HUGS)))
Thanks guys
Hope - not sure it's a sign that we are on our way to R. Just a thawing and a possibility that he is coming out of the fog. I suspect he made a lot of 'bad' decisions (and I realise that's a judgement call) whilst he was in the fog and he has to be willing to own those decisions before he will have the humility to come back. It is in his nature to externalise blame, so the chances of him facing those decisions and then forgiving himself are quite slim.
DV - I remember a letter you sent him, ending with "this is me, letting you go". I remember the sadness in it and an utter sense of defeat. Now your happiness resonates with every word you type. I don't think you've written about your H for the longest time. Look how far you've come !!!.
The new normal is a better place than the old normal ... I am taking back control (in small ways) of my life. One step in front of the other until I have the strength and willingness to run, right?
Urghhh I just finished writing an update and my laptop froze !!!
Quick version - Day 3 of FS's Take Back Control Initiative
{Day 2 was missed because not a lot happened - went to work, came home saw the kids for 20 mins before they went to H's flat}
1. I asked him this morning if i could them (the kids and him) for brunch. He had the kids all day and I was working from home. I normally don't ask to join them because, well I fear rejection and I don't want him to think I am intruding on his time. But I am done wondering how my actions make him feel. Today I just asked. Didn't think about it at all before hand. He said yes straight away (not the reluctant yes I used to get, or the "I'm not sure what i'm doing with them yet"). He also didn't get mad when I was 15 mins late (I text him to let him know and even sent him my order) and he offered to pay for me when the bill came.
Wonders never cease.
2. I told him calmly that this might be his house, but it is not his home. His brother was here picking something up and they were both outside talking. After a while he called me outside and said he wants to use the money we set aside to do the garden before he MO to pay his brother to redo the decking in the back garden. His brother can do it in one day and they will use cheap materials. I told him "I will think about it. I have to live here and don't want to do it cheaply just because it's convenient". There was some back and forth and I finally said the "I have to live here, it might be your house but it is not your home". He had a stupid smile on his face and said loudly "THIS is still MY home". I walked away.
I then went back to smiley happy FS.
He retaliated later by a) going to the shops and buying and cooking three steaks (one for him, one for D9 and one for D12) and b) saying (when D9 asked him when he was going to prepare the play house for painting) that "It's not my job" even though he had previously promised them he would do it.
[censored] child.
About 30 mins later he was out the back with D9 preparing the play house for painting.
PS - I ignored the lack of dinner and made myself a Caesar salad (with eggs, avocado and chicken) and then proceeded it eat it with them whilst they had their steaks.
You're a better woman than I am, FS. That kind of passive-aggressive, petty communication and little domestic punishments drives me mad - I lived with that kind of nonsense for years and even reading about it in your situation boils me. I'd love to get to the point of non-reaction that you're at.
That is so obnoxious, childish and frustrating. Also very interesting. I could handle most of it but the retaliatory stuff is too much. Sounds like he was being quite provocative, so good job resisting. It makes me wanna say, define a HOME buddy, because once you’ve moved out of a place...ugh. And also, if you want this to be your home you are still (for the moment) invited to stop doing all THIS and move home with your family. Ok sorry, I’m projecting.
My H has had several times where he will be doing or fixing something around the (my) house and then eventually it becomes nagging or complaining about something I’m not doing or that he doesn’t like. Early on Id get pulled in. It’s SUPER irritating but now I just ignore it (mostly).
I suspect the juxtaposition between my being friendly and interested in his day and then setting such clear boundaries is probably confusing the hell out of him. On the one hand I'm interested in the things he has to say, maintaining eye contact and smiling a lot, and on the other I am calmly telling him "this isn't your home".
I even said "enjoy the rest of your evening" when he left tonight (he promptly said he was probably going straight to bed as he needs to be up at 4:30 tomorrow for work). I told him to try and get some chill out time anyway as he's been with the kids for the last 2.5 days.
Not sure where it will go. But I am happy with the path I have decided to take.
You sound like you're actually having fun with this, FS. Not in a mean way but in a lighthearted, detached way. The thing about him looking at your breasts is hilarious, always nice to be appreciated even if it is by someone who then acts like a child! If this is detachment I'm all for it
Loving it FS. I love you've found such a great balance of taking back your power which then seems to give you enough energy and confidence to be more open/kind to him. I definitely see the connection where by defining your own space you can relax to let him closer to you in some ways. You are losing your fear of him hurting you.
H checking you out was the most surprising to me. I'd be curious to hear if that progresses or continues.
You sound in very good spirits, FS.
I wonder if he was trying to save face a bit in front of his brother when you had that interaction about the decking? It sounds like he likes having things on his own terms - the flat but also being able to come and go in the family home as he likes - total and unlimited contact with his children, but back-up wife work so he doesn't actually have to be a single parent. The conversation about the money and the decking sounded like him attempting to take some decisions and be man of the house, and I am not surprised he didn't like it when you pointed out that it wasn't actually his home any longer, and you'd be having full input into that decision yourself. I also think as he's the one who pretends to set boundaries (the business with the steaks) but actually just uses them to give punishments, he probably thinks that boundaries from you are about him - ie - punishments - rather than about your own comfort and security. So he'd expect a poor attitude from you, and when you continue being warm as well as having a boundary, he doesn't know what to do with himself. I've noticed similar behaviour from my H in the past, but I can just never quite sustain it.
UGH... Your description of his passive aggressive behaviour made me want to punch him. He was basically punishing you...like you are his child and not his wife. Good for you for not reacting. Not sure I could have done it. His treatment of you is just plain disrespectful. I maintain what I said before... you deserve so much better.
Why does he insist it is his “home” when he has moved out and lives elsewhere? He really does want to have his cake and eat it too. You just need to figure out how much you will allow him to eat. (((HUGS)))
The 'his home' position is based on a legal argument. Even though he has left I cannot deny him access to the property - he is on the deeds and it is classed as the marital home. It is a bit of a grey area tbh - I have a right to privacy in my home and he has to respect that but at the same time he has a right to come and go as he pleases.
Stupid English laws !!!
His treatment of me is better than it has been in a long time. Before it would have been five minutes of ranting, end of the world, catastrophe type b**cks. Now it is just not offering me any dinner.
He then quickly reverts to Mr Nice Guy. Water off a ducks back.
Yail - He has always watched me. Even when he was an angry alien he watched me. What made this time different was he wasn't watching me with an eye to criticise ("are you really wearing that?") or waiting until I walked away before he looked, but eyes straight to chest kind of looking. He saw me as a sexual being and he was embarrassed when he got caught.
TBH I've noticed a lot more of it lately but this was the most blatant and the only time he realised I'd caught him. I don't read anything into it other than he is a man and I am a reasonably attractive woman. The real change for me is knowing that he sees me as a woman and not the enemy.
Day 3 of FS Initiative
WFH as kids still on hols. Took them out to lunch and now home 'supposedly' working. D9 is downstairs doing a craft activity with our nanny and D12 is watching the Vampire Diaries on telly.
I have invited some of the kids from D9's class to do an easter egg hunt here on friday. D9 and D12 have been excitedly planning the day. We will need to prepare the garden Friday morning, make sandwiches, bake/buy cakes and such for an afternoon tea. I am looking forward to preparing for the hunt with my girls almost as much as I am looking forward to hosting it. Perhaps even more.
I have also planned a long weekend to Brighton one of the bank holidays in May. The Brighton Fringe Festival is on and there are lots of activities for the children so it should be fun.
On the H front ...
H is working today but has asked if he can pick the girls up after football training tonight and bring them back here. He will probably have a cup of tea, spend 20 mins with them, and then head back to his flat. He will then be back at 8 in the morning to watch the girls until 3 (when he has to go to work again). I sometimes wonder why he has a flat at all.
Not much else to be honest. Still feeling pretty positive overall.
Oh - I am making cottage pie (kids and H's favorite) for when the kids get back from footie training.
I will be asking him if he wants to join us for dinner.
This is me being the bigger person.
There was some back and forth and I finally said the "I have to live here, it might be your house but it is not your home". He had a stupid smile on his face and said loudly "THIS is still MY home". I walked away.
Kind of a low blow on your part, don't you think? You might want to think about that, and ask yourself what you were hoping to accomplish. I think at some level (maybe sub-conscious) you wanted to make him angry. And it DID make him angry, and his passive-aggressive response to that anger in turn made you more angry. See what I'm getting at here? If you're honest with yourself, YOU started it. Seems kind of petty to blame him for being a "child" when you were the one that poked the bear with a stick, right? One of the hardest things for an LBS to do is to learn how to take the moral high road in the face of WAS behavior, but it will make you feel good about yourself no matter what happens in your sitch.
AS - It is not often I disagree with you but this time I do.
He does not live here. He moved out over a year ago. This is not his home.
1. He chose to move and call somewhere else his home.
2. He does not contribute to the mortgage and never has (note: I am not bitter about this - if/when it comes to splitting the assets then we will split them 50/50.).
I have asked him repeatedly to let me know when he is coming to walk our dog or when he will have the children here. He says he will then he doesn't. Sometimes he is here all day (the camera is good for something) on his own for no good reason. When I mention it he says something dismissive like "Yeah, I came around to walk [the dog] or "I was waiting for a package to be delivered". If I push him on it, he then says "I can come here whenever I like".
This time he was trying to push me into agreeing to go cheap with the decking because it suited him. He does not want to spend more than the money we put away a long time ago. When he told me his brother was willing to do it cheaply and quickly, I initially said "Thanks. I'll think about it" and went to walk back inside. He called me out again and tried to convince me again and I said "I am not sure that I want to go cheap. I still want it to look nice". We went around in this loop for about 5 minutes, him coming up with reasons we should do it and me saying "I'll think about it". Finally he said "The money is in my account and I say we're going ahead with it". That's when I reminded him that this is not his home.
What was I trying to accomplish ... I was trying to set a clear boundary regarding his status in relation to the house. It has always bothered me. In the past I've done this via wishy washy "can you let me know when you're coming around" or through actions - I treat him like a guest when he's here by saying things like "help yourself to a cup of tea" or "just show yourself out when you're done". I've been doing this pretty much since he left. It has not worked. I wanted to remind him that he cannot have his cake (his flat) and eat it too (treat this house like it is still his home).
We talk a lot on this site about regaining our self respect and putting aside our inner mister nice guy and stating clearly that we will not be disrespected. My H coming and going as he pleases is disrespectful to me.
BTW - you were the one that said the camera thing was, to use your words, creepy AF. Yes, it (was) creepy. But more to the point, it was controlling.
I somehow missed, FS, that he left such a long time ago and is still regularly coming into the house when the girls or you aren't there. That is creepy and unnecessary. It's territory marking.
FS,
I can completely understand how creepy and unnerving it must be to have him entering the house and hanging around at will, even when you aren't there. Especially after a year! It would drive me up a wall. My W left in August and still comes back to walk the dog twice a week. But we have an agreed upon schedule and 99% of the time I make sure that I am not around. At one point, she took some motorcycle gloves from the house, and when I noticed I asked her not to take anything else without asking. I am fortunate that she has been respectful of the space and of my need for detachment.
That said, is it really a boundary if you can't enforce it? I don't know the laws over there, but it sounds like so long as you are still married he has a right to enter the house. From what you say it doesn't seem like you can do anything to him if he keeps doing it (other than getting mad or making angry comments, which doesn't really help.)
The law (unsurprisingly) is a little grey. I can't deny him access (e.g. if I change the locks, he can get a locksmith in to break-in), but he has to be respectful of my space by doing things like asking permission or waiting to be invited. We could fight it out in court and see where the cards fall but then this would turn adversarial and we are so far, fairly decent to one another. I would be interested in your view Yorkie (having been married to a divorce lawyer) if you read this.
I remember the glove incident and I remember how much it wound you up. But your W and my H are not the same. From what I read of her, before she turned into an alien, she was a decent person. I am not saying my H isn't. But he is the boy who licked all the chocolates in the box so his brother wouldn't eat them (true story and happened more than once). He will never respect my request to not come and go as he pleases so I have never asked him outright not to come here. I have only asked him to tell me first.
I did not tell him he could not come and go as he pleases. I simply said this not his home. You are right, this is a boundary I cannot enforce (well, I probably could, but I'd need to get lawyers involved) but it put the seed of doubt in his head. Right now he doesn't even think about coming and going as he pleases. He just does. But now there is a small seed of doubt that perhaps he shouldn't be sitting on the sofa watching netflix when no-one else is here (which btw is what he does most of the time) and perhaps he shouldn't be in my bedroom, even if it is only to look for D12's shorts.
Seeds of doubt have a way of eating you up.
Alison - yes it has been going on a long time. Long before I joined this forum.
AS - It is not often I disagree with you but this time I do.
He does not live here. He moved out over a year ago. This is not his home.
1. He chose to move and call somewhere else his home.
2. He does not contribute to the mortgage and never has (note: I am not bitter about this - if/when it comes to splitting the assets then we will split them 50/50.).
Ah, well that makes more sense but I don't understand why you would tell him it is "his house" if it's not. And why would he have any say about the deck or anything else if it's your house?
We talk a lot on this site about regaining our self respect and putting aside our inner mister nice guy and stating clearly that we will not be disrespected. My H coming and going as he pleases is disrespectful to me.
So why do you continue to let it happen? Put a stop to it. Change the locks. Install a security system and don't give him the code (Ring is a good one, you can disarm it remotely if he or someone else needs access). Tell him he can only gain entry with your approval, and that he needs to call you first so you can disarm the system.
BTW - you were the one that said the camera thing was, to use your words, creepy AF. Yes, it (was) creepy. But more to the point, it was controlling.
And it's still there, isn't it? TAKE CONTROL. You complain a lot about his control and manipulation, but then you don't do anything to stop it except keep asking him not to (and that has never worked). You have GOT to back up your boundaries with ACTION, otherwise you will continue to get walked all over. So for example, tell him "I have asked you over and over again not to let yourself into my house and you continue to do so. If this doesn't stop right away I am going to change the locks and install a security system." Then if he keeps doing it, then change the locks and install the security system.
Hi FS
I can give you my experience from a policing perspective because it is often an area that gets stuck between civil and criminal law. I don't think there is much doubt that at the moment he has a legal right to occupy the house. Therefore if you prevent him access then he has the right to enter the property, provided he then makes good any damage. However, despite his lawful authority to be present in the house, he does risk breaking criminal law by trying to enforce his lawful authority if that constitutes a threat of violence against the person or premises when against the wishes of the occupier. It's messy and not a road I would advise either party to go down.
Really the only way is to apply to a court for an occupation order whereby you would have to convince a judge that it is necessary to keep you or the children safe. Very often unsuccessful except in cases of domestic violence. If he then broke the order and you felt in danger then the Police would assist in removing him.
So, where does this leave you FS? I accept the view that it is an unenforceable boundary. However, you have stated it clearly and succinctly. If he chooses to not listen then it gives you cause to consider that he is showing you no respect whatsoever.
I get the whole 'you've got to be prepared to carry through with your threats' theory when it comes to children. He's not a child, you're not his mother. If he carries on regardless, without reasonable discussion, what does it say about him and you?
So, I think it is a type of boundary - a 'virtual boundary' It is putting your situation in context. I live here. It is my home. The children live here. It is their home. You do not live here and therefore I do not consider it your home.
You've given him food for thought. Let's see what he does.
Thanks Yorkie - that's what I thought. I have spoken to solicitors (three to be exact) and that was their view too. It is an 'iffy' area.
AS - it is his house because he is on the deeds. However, I paid the deposit and I have always paid the mortgage. In the eyes of the law this doesn't matter. He didn't earn as much as me and you support each other when you are married. He is entitled to half the house if/when the house is sold.
But there is a philosophical distinction between house and home. I house is something you own. It is a financial investment. A home is somewhere you live. It has emotional value. The wording I used when speaking to him was the wording suggested by all three of the solicitors. Your house. My home. It may not have a legal standing, but it has a ethical one.
As Yorkie says I cannot legally change the locks. However, I disabled the camera on Sunday (after I asked him to remove himself from he told me to do it myself) and, today I installed a lock on by bedroom door. You're right I should have done all this ages ago. Fear. Might be a small thing to you. But it is huge for me.
I cannot control much - he can come and go as he pleases, we have no regular childcare schedule to speak of (it is completely dependent on his roster) and I am a high earner so he pays me a nominal amount for the children - but I am getting on with my life regardless.
As always, I appreciate your words. Sometimes I come here just to moan about my H because I cannot do it IRL so apologize if it came across that way.
The more I think about it FS, the more I think that this is a massive thing for you. It's a line in the sand which is done whilst taking into account the dynamic of your relationship. I love a bit of confrontation myself but changing the locks is an unnecessary aggressive move I think. Too drastic and dramatic.
I know AlisonUK had very specific understandable reasons for doing so, but you are not in that position. Seriously, if you in your situation have to use the law to prevent your spouse from entering the marital property, then I think it's a pretty done deal that there isn't anything left worth saving. A history of violence is a different perspective.
Heck even my H respected my request not to be in my bedroom when I wasn't here. He immediately said that if he wanted something he would ask me to leave it out.
Leading a double life with a OW is the height of marital disrespect in my view, and even he didn't disrespect this request from me.
So, It's a request. Technically not a boundary. A H should show respect for that request shouldn't he? If he doesn't, it speaks volumes I believe and may create a response from you far more powerful than any lock changing.
It rather looks like he's tempted to get into a pi**ing contest about house / home, it's mine / it's yours. Don't play. You've stated your request.
Your tone sounds a bit different FS. I think this may be a pivotal time for you. I would love to get hold of him and tell him to stop pi**ing about and see the writing on the wall.
It rather looks like he's tempted to get into a pi**ing contest about house / home, it's mine / it's yours.
This is how it looks to me, too. I honestly think being in the house as much as he is - or insisting on having these silly discussions about your reasonable requests for privacy - are about power and control and territory. I think it's right what Yorkie says - don't get involved in it - just state what you want and respond to his response in your own time and in your own way.
I did change the locks on my house. At the time - over Christmas and New Year - H was drinking a lot, behaving very erratically and illogically - there was lots of ranting and slamming doors - and there had been one previous instance of domestic abuse, on record with the police. It felt to me both necessary for my peace of mind (he carried on drinking heavily for the first six weeks of our separation and I didn't want him to take it into his head to turn up at the house drunk) and sensible for my safely. It was technically against UK law but if he'd have broken the door down while drunk I'd have been in a strong position to have him removed by the police and a non molestation order put in place.
Thankfully, it never came to that and things are different now. He is not drinking as he was, and when he comes to the house to visit the children he comes sober and does not bring drink with him. I asked him for that and he's agreed and we've never needed to discuss it since. He also comes to the house by prior arrangement - he never and has never just turned up. He has a key back now. He's agreed not to turn up without notice and to let me know if he needs to come to the house when I am not here (most of his things are here still) and that has worked well so far. If it stopped working well, I think I would change the lock again. It wasn't particularly expensive. He doesn't knock on the door - he uses his key - but I feel okay about that given that he always texts to let me know he is about to arrive.
Yorkie - Yes, there is definitely something in the air. It isn't dropping the rope exactly, not in the same way DV and you have anyway. It is more subtle and incremental in nature. A quieter acceptance.
Honestly, I thought his reaction was going to be worse than trying to exclude me from dinner. I think he knows my request are reasonable and was probably just hoping I'd be too scared to ask. I'd never thought about it before, but punishment is actually what he tries to do. But he left, and the "things" he has to punish me with are becoming few and far between. He has left, he has told me he is not coming back. What else is there?
Despite the above, our interactions have been friendly. It is freeier and less weighted. It flows. There are still awkward moments (like last night when I said I had plans for Saturday night and couldn't swap - you could feel the sudden drop in temperature) and there are still some no-go topics (anything which might lead to an R conversation) but, strangely, I feel we are in a much better place today (friend wise) than we were two years ago (which is when I think this all actually started). When he came over last night, I asked him if he'd like to join us and we sat and had a (mostly) awkward free conversation.
**************
Journalling
H's dad had a heart attack this morning. The kids are on holidays and H and I (and the nanny) are juggling the child care between us. Today, he came over at 8 this morning to watch the kids until the nanny arrives. When I got to work my phone started ringing and it was H. He always texts so I was a little taken aback and answered immediately. He told me his dad had had a heart attach whilst driving and had been rushed to hospital. He wanted me to ask the nanny to come early so he could go be with his dad. Unfortunately the nanny has another job in the morning but I offered to come home and watch the girls. I said D12 could watch D9 until I got back (about an hour). He said it was alright and he would get D12 to watch D9 until the nanny arrived.
When we got off the phone I wondered if it would be appropriate to text him and if I did, what would be the appropriate thing to say. I landed at "Hi - I hope it's all OK. Give your dad my love. Let me know if there is anything you need".
He said thanks and will do and then sent a couple of updates during the day. He asked if it would be Ok to come see the girls on his way home, and I said of course. He could stay for dinner if he wanted and even offered to make myself scarce. The girls are a great comfort to me when I am feeling down (I know, not their responsibility, but they don't need to do anything, I just like being around them).
He ended up not coming over as it was late by the time he left the hospital but he called and we spoke for a bit. Mostly about his dad. Depending on how his dad is he might not be able to have the girls this weekend. I said of course, it wasn't a problem and that I'd offer any support I could.
Hopefully that came across as sympathy and not pursuit. It wasn't intended as pursuit. He was the man I shared my life with for 16 years. I still want him to know I care.
That wasn't pursuit. No, don't doubt yourself in this. It was support. The rules change in a situation like this, and I'm so sorry for you and your H's family.
I am wishing him (and you) well during this tough time.
You are an expert an understanding the subtleties needed in different situations. In this one, don't doubt your instinct. Follow them. You may need to offer your strength and support in ways you would not in any other circumstance. This is an exception to the rule and do not feel guilty. We have "DB DB DB" drilled into our heads, but it's okay to act differently right now.
I am hoping for the best possible outcome for your H's father, whatever that might be.
Yail’s right... it’s not pursuit. It is you supporting your husband...which he technically still is. It is also what you would do for a friend or anyone else you care about. No judgment here FS. You just be you and do what you think is right. Hope your H’s father comes through this okay. (((HUGS)))
I think you were showing him kindness - it was about him, and you thinking about what he might need or want - it wasn't about getting your own needs met. I think it was the right thing to do, despite how difficult and mean he can be. We don't have to be 'good' to deserve compassion in difficult times.
He is your FIL too, and the girls' grandad. I hope you are able to take some care for yourself.
Thanks guys. I don't think it was pursuit either. But these waters are hard to navigate ... and it is difficult when you are in the middle of it to know what the right thing to do is.
Yail - I think DB DB DB gets drummed into us here because we need it to protect us whilst heal. So we GAL, we 180 and we detach. Detachment was always a difficult one for me - too detached and it's rude, not detached enough and it becomes pursuit. At times, I probably wavered on the rude side. I am trying to be lovingly detached, but sometimes, when the 'lovingly' part is not reciprocated, it feels like doormat. That isn't because I think I can win him back with kindness, but every now and then, it feels like my kindness is taken advantage of. Expectations. Not of R, but that he is capable of kindness back.
Journaling
Easter weekend is nearly done. A have ended up having the children most of the weekend because my H has been visiting his dad. I have not minded having the children. But, as I noted above, I do feel a little taken advantage off. He went out last night when he could have had the girls.
We had an Easter egg hunt here with some of D9's friends Friday which was awesome. The other parents and I sat in the garden (first properly warm day of the year) and watched the children excitedly hunting for eggs. D12 was in her element because she was 'in charge'. After the hunt we had afternoon tea for the kids, and again D12 was in charge. I didn't have to do much other than put the food out.
Saturday, the girls and I went into town to have lunch and do some shopping. It was H's day to have the girls and I agreed to watch them as he wanted to go to the hospital to visit his dad. In any case, he came around in the evening to watch them as I had made plans to go to dinner with a girlfriend. I offered to cancel my plans, but he said it was fine. He was feeding them at the house, and the girls said they'd rather sleep at home. H watched them until I got back.
Sunday, I had his brother's girlfriend and her daughter around for Easter lunch. We sat in the garden most of the day watching the kids play. His brother came back after visiting his dad and we all just hung out. It was actually pretty cool. Not sure where H was, but no matter.
I have the girls again today. Not much planned. Tidying the house, helping D12 with her homework (she starts school tomorrow) and just hanging out. D9 and I are about to watch a movie and D12 is still sleeping
.
On another note, I have booked a holiday to Greece for the girls and I in the summer, and also a week for me in Croatia when H takes the girls away for a week. The Greece holiday is an all inclusive resort thing (kids don't want to go sight seeing) and the Croatia trip is white water rafting and cave diving. Not quite bucket list, but it should be fun.
Those sound like amazing holidays FS!
I get you on the detachment versus coldness. Maybe as distancers both of us need to lean towards being warmer rather than colder? You sound detached in terms of not thinking that much about your H and I don’t think that being kind is something you should ever regret if it’s true kindness and not manipulation or done in expectation of something in return. Maybe thinking whether the behaviour is something you’d do for a good friend is a good benchmark for all of us in this?
I am trying to be lovingly detached, but sometimes, when the 'lovingly' part is not reciprocated, it feels like doormat. That isn't because I think I can win him back with kindness, but every now and then, it feels like my kindness is taken advantage of. Expectations. Not of R, but that he is capable of kindness back.
This puts into to words very clearly how I was feeling when H was here during his illness being waited on hand and foot. I wanted to be kind. I wanted to support him. I wanted to show him compassion. He is going through a terrible time and much of it isn't of his own making. In my heart of hearts yes, there probably was some expectation and pursuit in there. I of course have missed him and wanted him in the house and it was good to show him my changes and I was hoping he noticed them. He'll have picked up on my caring not being entirely altruistic, of course.
But at the same time, he was receiving care from me, and it was obviously hard for him to even summon up civility in return at some points, that that does make me feel taken advantage of - even though the kindness was something I offered and that he didn't really ask for.
It is a tangle. I think you're doing it just right, FS. How is your FIL today?
Journalling
FIL is still under sedation. I don't know much as H has not really spoken about it. I don't know if this is because he is processing, or he doesn't want to show me any weakness. From what I can gather there is blood entering his lungs so they have a tube which periodically clears it out and his heart is still too weak so they have to try and limit the work it normally does. They did wake him briefly but he went into a panic and started trying to pull the tube out of his throat. When he is stronger, they will probably have to do a heart bypass and it is unlikely he will ever have the strength he once had (I got the last part from FIL's best friend who is also our builder).
I just re-read my last journal entry and Alison and Dilly's responses and realised I was not completely honest in my writing. I was annoyed H went out Sunday night and it was more than because he could have come to see the girls. When he said he was going out, a big red angry neon sign appeared in my head that said "he is going out with her". I don't actually know if that is true, but he didn't want me to know - it was only after someone suggested he car share with his brother to the hospital that he had to mention it, and he looked away when he said it, then his eyes darted to my face. All I could think was you're still manipulating me.
Thing is I don't know if he went on a date or not. It could be he went out with a buddy who was a catalyst in the separation in the first place. EA aren't always with someone of the opposite sex. It can be someone who listens and validates and over the years feeds their resentment "ball and chain", and "she's such a [censored]", "she's out of line", "let's have another drink - F her".
Later, perhaps in retaliation, I booked the holidays and sent him very matter of fact texts "FYI - I am taking the girls from XX to XX" and then "Also, I am going away the week you have the girls. I will sort out dog sitting for [the dog]". There was some tooing and frooing about the dog sitter (he wants his mum to look after her, but I had already booked the sitter by then). Later that evening he did not call as he normally does (too busy being out).
I have withdrawn again. Two steps forward, one step back. This lovingly detached is hard.
You're allowed to be human, FS. You weren't cruel to your H and you were as kind as you could be in that moment. And he is your FIL too and whether they are at the surface or not, you're going to have your own feelings at a time like this and they matter too.
I have withdrawn again. Two steps forward, one step back. This lovingly detached is hard.
FS, it is hard, for sure. I'm sure that it is doubly so when dealing with a stressful situation like the health of your FIL. You taking care of yourself and your kids is the right way to go. The vacation plans sound amazing. Focus on yourself and on them and you can't go wrong.
hugs,
Sorry about the possible date. If I have learned anything from my experiences, it is that our Hs will hide anything they think is going to be disapproved of and that you should trust your gut. I also found that my STBXH would volunteer information when he was doing something I wouldn’t be upset about. i.e. “I am going to Vancouver to rehearse with my band” but leave out that his gf is going with him. But you are right...it isn’t necessarily a woman. It’s tough, I know FS, but you are handling it like a champ as per usual. The vacation plans sound fantastic!! My sister has been campaigning for me to go to Croatia for awhile now. I will likely visit there at some point over the next few years. You’ll have to let us know how it is. My sister loves it there...relaxed atmosphere, friendly people, low cost. Hope your FIL feels better soon. (((HUGS)))
Alison - I know. But in my heart I know it wasn't truly altruistic. I didn't expect him to jump into my arms praising my kindness and compassion. But I didn't expect him to throw it in my face and go out. I think I am also upset that instead of opening up about his grief to me, he may have opened up to someone else - not sure if it matters if it was a date or a mate. It is that he would share that with someone else. But, rationally, I know that he would probably not share his grief with anyone - in all our time together I only saw him cry once (apart from a couple of times between BD and MO).
DV- always good to hear from you. I don't know if he is hiding anything of any significance - just that it would be something that would likely upset me (maybe a night out with his mates, or with his useless buddy, or on a date). What I don't understand is why he still feels the need to keep things from me. If we are done (as he said we were) then what's the point.
BTW - I am thoroughly enjoying living vicariously through you
. I met someone the other day - fully of warmth, compassion and depth. Twice divorced but with an unbelievable passion for life. She too is a counselor. We clicked immediately. We talked for a bit and I told her my sitch. She said I needed patience and strength to get through this but that I would get through it. I imagine that she is what you would be like if we were to ever meet IRL.
Davide - I am enjoying your adventures too. I find you both inspirational. From what you were to what you are. I am sorry the D process is getting you down. But you will ride it out. I know you will. In the same way that I know you will open your heart when a woman comes along who deserves it. Very definition of amoafwl. Even I think my vacation plans are amazing and also a little bit scary. Here's to facing my fears.
[quote = FlySolo]What I don't understand is why he still feels the need to keep things from me. If we are done (as he said we were) then what's the point[/quote]
Good thought and very insightful FS. I think you're correct in this, and it must make it hard to see the limbo in actions like this.
I know you feel like you took a step back, but I hope you enjoy the next two steps forward. They're coming, whatever they may be.
FS,
Sorry to hear about FIL.
Wanted to quickly say you are doing well. I am going to be living vicariously through you and all the trips you got planned! (Hugs to you and your daughters)
My interpretation of your H's behaviour is that he was embarrassed about going out under the circumstances, not necessarily that he was hiding who he was going out with. But I realise I'm an optimist and many people on this board have learnt to expect the worst of their spouses...He sounds like he thought you might be angry with him too, and you were, so maybe that was part of the dynamic. Why didn't you just ask him where he was going?
But anyway, no matter what the motivation to book the trips they are a good thing
Thanks Adam. I know the trips will be good for me and the girls. A little sad that going on hols with the three of us (or just the three of them) seems to be the 'norm' now. The one on my own is through an adventure group. They organize 'adventures' for people in their 30's and 40's - not a dating thing. More a bucket list adventure thing. I've heard good things. Scary though.
Dilly - you could be correct. I don'tn tell him what I'm doing even though I am not doing anything. For example, I have told him I am going away but have not told him what I am doing. I guess it's part of the "this is my life" and I feel the need to protect it. Maybe it's the same for him. Plus, I have questioned him before, he would go to the gym and be gone for 3-4 hours and when I'd say "How was the gym?", I'd get a huff, followed by a look, followed by an "YOU don't need to ask". That was a long time ago but I've learned to not question when the things he says don't add up.
Journalling
Action 4 of FS Sort My Life Out Initiative
i've change the title as it Take Control Back sounded a little aggressive
There is something in the air. I can't put my finger on it, but it's there. A change in temperature maybe. We had started to open up a little, but it seems we are both on guard again.
I've been doing yoga at home each day as have had the kids non-stop for the last five days. I've found some amazing tutorials on YouTube and am considering giving up my gym membership. It's a £120 per month so it would be decent saving.
Yesterday was the first day in ages without the kids so I met up with some friends for a beer after work. There are a lot of nice out door bar areas around work so we thought we'd take advantage. Well, the weather has turned cold again (darn that English weather) so only had two and then headed home. Beers, pleasant conversation and then home.
On the train back I got a text from D9 asking if I was on my way back yet. Turns out H decided to take them back to mine after football training to change and have dinner. I could tell in our text exchange that she was disappointed I wasn't home and I felt guilty the whole way back.
I got sent the childcare schedule for May yesterday (after chasing him twice). His work schedule changes from one month to the next.
** side note: He bids for days to work, a computer applies various algorithms (length of employment, hours worked so far, permitted hours flying, rest days etc) and out comes a 'tentative' roster. The pilots then 'swap' shifts (subject to a bunch of regulations) and by around the 15th of the month prior, the roster for the next month is firmed up. Once he has the schedule, then he dicks around with it some to work out what days he wants the kids and finally, a firmed up childcare schedule is sent to me. I then give our nanny her shifts. I also have to fit GAL around this.
I consistently get the schedule between 23 and 25th of the month leaving my a week to sort out childcare and confirm (or decline) my own plans. On the the days he doesn't have the kids he puts "Away" on the schedule. This really winds me up - as "Away" is his way of saying "working" when he really means "working or out". I don't mind that he has a life outside 'the family' but I find it insulting that he puts a schedule together that says he is working when sometimes he is ta the football, or going out with mates, or seeing other women.
I have not said anything before because I always questioned how doing so "would bring me closer to my goal". But yesterday, I put caveat on that goal - I want to R, but not on the basis that I am being taken advantage of. The continued delay is disrespectful and the lying is insulting. So yesterday I told him I wanted the schedule by the 20th of each month (5 days is enough for him to [censored] sort out his social life) and to just put down the days he is having the children. I don't need to know when he is "away".
He didn't respond. Later when we exchanged texts about D9 his responses were short. I popped around to his flat this morning (I asked first) and when I enquired about his dad, his response was "no change" (i.e. dismissive).
** side note 2: I normally avoid going to his flat because it feels like an intrusion. A separate life devoid of me. But I felt guilty about not being home last night and wanted to see D9. When I got there he told me to help myself to a drink and I opened one of the the cupboard. It was full of spices and proper cooking stuff. In the 15-16 years we lived together he never once cooked dinner. Now, he has recipe books and cooks with spices. It is weird the power a little thing like spices has to still cut me up.
I think that way of scheduling and organising childcare would annoy me too, FS. If he doesn't give you the schedule earlier, have you planned how you will respond? I guess a single father would not be able to do a job like that unless he employed his own nanny. Would it be better or more equitable if he was responsible for scheduling the nanny's shifts at least half the time?
FS, This sounds difficult. It's a change, and you don't know what's around the corner. But maybe it's just minor bump you two have to figure out how to navigate as coparents, and it will ultimately lead towards (hopefully) better communication and who knows what else.
We all know how there's that famous (annoying) phrase people say, "Marriage takes work". Well, take out M, and let's just say "relationships". And I often wonder - no one ever says what that work looks like. What form does it take?
So maybe this is an example of the "work" you have to put in to create a changed dynamic. This awkward, bumpy part.
Plus, I have questioned him before, he would go to the gym and be gone for 3-4 hours and when I'd say "How was the gym?", I'd get a huff, followed by a look, followed by an "YOU don't need to ask". That was a long time ago but I've learned to not question when the things he says don't add up.
Later, when you have reestablished a solid communication style, this might be something to revisit. If significant time has passed, perhaps enough has changed that this can result in a different response. It would be an interesting barometer.
Please start a new thread and link both threads together. Thanks!
Take back control sounds a little UKIP...
The spices thing sounds hurtful, but it's a 180. It's good that he's taking care of himself, right? Maybe if you R he will be able to whip up delicious meals for you.
You seem to infer quite a lot from his behaviour, and they're not the most positive of interpretations are they? Just an observation...
It was good he felt comfortable inviting you in and letting you help yourself. I feel you need to toughen up a bit , getting Triggered over spices ? Imagine it was female underwear like some people have had . Time to get on the positive half full side of life .
I know your scheduling is difficult, but I know you can do it . How about inviting the girls to a show and having a girls fun night out ? Maybe a music concert so you can let your mind go a bit ? Or even better something completely new ? You are a wonderful person and deserve happiness.