MLC? Confused what to do (Part 3)

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2837956 - thread 1

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2839581 - thread 2

Ok, so yesterday was a little different. The W had a long day at work (had a field trip for her after school program) so she had told me that she would go straight from work to her exercise class and would be home until after. This is normally a 8PM arrival time. To put matters worse, both my daughters were sick yesterday so I had to come home and work to be there for them.

So I work my normal work day and get off at 3:30PM. I took out some things to the compost outside and was starting to clean up the dishes that need hand washed and the stacked dishes to be loaded in dishwasher. I also got some chicken out to put in salt water. I let the dishes soak in water and decided since it was not too bad (for Ohio weather) to go for a run. So I ended up running over 2 miles at 6:38 per mile pace.

Anyways, I get done running on the lane that I live on and went back inside and I was sweating. So I took off my shirt and was just in my shorts and was listening to an audio book. I didn't notice anything to include that the otehr car was in the garage when I got done running.

Anyways, I am just hand washing dishes and notice wife come down the stairs. I just keep doing my thing. She eventually asks me a couple questions that I answer in short replies. She said she was about to leave to go to grocery store before her exercise and asked if I needed anything. I said nope. She said ok, and she was leaving. I just said alright and drive safe and back to finishing the dishes. I then started preparing the chicken and potatoes for the kids and me to eat for dinner. She had left but then came back. I just did my thing.

I am trying to move on as if she is moving out and what I will need to do to keep the house up and kids functioning. So that is what I did. I fed the kiddos, had them take their showers, and then I relaxed. She came home and fixed heated herself up one of the chickens and whatever else she was eating and went to her bedroom. I stayed downstairs and red some things and just relaxed. I then got the kids to brush their teeth and got them to go to bed. That is the only time she came out to just say goodnight to them. I went into my bedroom and worked out some more (planks and push ups) and then I read the DB book until I was getting tired and went to bed.

What I am trying to do is do most of the stuff around the house. Not to kiss her ass or pursue, plead, etc. I am doing it since she will be moving out here soon and I need to pick up the double parenting duties and get used to them now. We used to be a team and help each other out. I like having the kitchen counter clean and not a lot of clutter. She likes to stack things up and eventually clean it up. I have never complained about. But since I will be the head of household alone, I can keep it the way I want when she moves out or start now to show I am moving on with or without her.

Detaching is hard but I am trying to focus on myself. I wish there was a hypnosis that I could do to detach easier. I will be going to the marriage counseling appointment today. I switched it to an individual appointment instead. I did tell the W that I did that. Not to pursue or anything. It was to let her know that I would be talking to this counselor one on one about me. This way in case we ever did R and use this counselor, she wouldn't be surprised if I had talked to her already.

She got mad that I didn't cancel it. I told her I was going and if she wanted to go, that is up to her. She says that maybe I should go myself. I just said, that is fine, I was planning on going by myself to talk to her. Do what she needs or wants to do. She responded with another message about trying to explain why she wouldn't be there. I just never responded since no question was asked.

Ok, so I just got a message from the W. She is filling out an apartment application.

She asks for the car license plate number. She then mentions that it is asking about mortgage info. She said she has a feeling that I will have to co-sign for the apartment since she can't qualify on her own.

I responded with the license plate number. I then told her that co-signing was not part of the deal for me. She should be able to show them the income I will provide. If that is not sufficient, I don't know what she will have to do.

I just left it at that.

I so wanted to tell her to have the OM co-sign for her. I also wanted to say, welcome to the real life of a single person and the stuff you think is easy to deal with. I hope I handled the situation ok.

I also don't like the idea that she told me I would have to co-sign. Not asking me to co-sign, but saying I would have to. WTF? No more Mr. Nice Guy!

So this will be my 100th post. I have another question on what I should be doing in the interim. She wants to move out. She can't until April 1st (at the earliest). She is still using my credit card to do things such as buy groceries (for her consumption and children's consumption). She has used it to take my son out to eat when I went to the father-daughter dance this past weekend.

Should I start the moving on from the M and ask her to give me the credit cards that are in my name (she is an authorized) user and say that I will be buying the groceries that are needed for the children and me for the rest of the month. She can use her money and her credit card to purchase her separate items. Or should I just wait until April to have that discussion.

I am trying to show her that I am moving on with life with or without her to include the separation. I don't want to appear as "punishing" her but she has decided to move out. She is making preparation to move out. I am just trying to figure out when I should do this. I have been reading a lot of Sandi's Reflections and other WW posts. Still learning to get the balls back as she says!

HAPPY 100th post to ME!!! Wish I wasn't here but the help from here and my BIL has been invaluable. Just trying to implement a lot of the stuff is the tricky part.

Originally Posted by AnthonyA

So this will be my 100th post. I have another question on what I should be doing in the interim. She wants to move out. She can't until April 1st (at the earliest). She is still using my credit card to do things such as buy groceries (for her consumption and children's consumption). She has used it to take my son out to eat when I went to the father-daughter dance this past weekend.

Should I start the moving on from the M and ask her to give me the credit cards that are in my name (she is an authorized) user and say that I will be buying the groceries that are needed for the children and me for the rest of the month. She can use her money and her credit card to purchase her separate items. Or should I just wait until April to have that discussion.

I am trying to show her that I am moving on with life with or without her to include the separation. I don't want to appear as "punishing" her but she has decided to move out. She is making preparation to move out. I am just trying to figure out when I should do this. I have been reading a lot of Sandi's Reflections and other WW posts. Still learning to get the balls back as she says!

HAPPY 100th post to ME!!! Wish I wasn't here but the help from here and my BIL has been invaluable. Just trying to implement a lot of the stuff is the tricky part.

AnthonyA, this is my first time commenting on your sitch but I�ve been following it some.

Have you spoken to a lawyer yet? I would be concerned about her having access to all the credit cards. I�ve never been through a legal separation but I imagine that there could be a temporary child support order set up for your kids. Someone can correct me if I�m wrong. I also know that varies depending on where you live.

However, yes if she wants to live like she�s single then she has to accept all that comes with that.

Anthony, overall it sounds like you're doing fine, I would just caution you to be careful not to be cold and indifferent towards her. It sounds like you are doing that, which to her is just going to look like "more of the same" behavior. Detach, but LOVINGLY detach. Read Sandi's rules every day and let those govern your behavior.

Originally Posted by AnthonyA

I so wanted to tell her to have the OM co-sign for her. I also wanted to say, welcome to the real life of a single person and the stuff you think is easy to deal with. I hope I handled the situation ok.

You definitely don't want to cosign for someone who wants a D. Who knows what the future holds, she may move in with OM in 6 months and bail on her lease leaving YOU responsible for it. As for the above yes it's good that you didn't say that. Don't be mean/ sarcastic, again that will just look like "more of the same". Show her what she'll be missing.

Well done on the running, that's a great pace! I used to be a runner logging around 50 a week, now I hate running to the mailbox

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She is still using my credit card to do things such as buy groceries (for her consumption and children's consumption). She has used it to take my son out to eat when I went to the father-daughter dance this past weekend.

Should I start the moving on from the M and ask her to give me the credit cards that are in my name (she is an authorized) user and say that I will be buying the groceries that are needed for the children and me for the rest of the month. She can use her money and her credit card to purchase her separate items. Or should I just wait until April to have that discussion.

It sounds like she is being reasonable and just using it for joint living expenses but you might tell her now that when she moves out you will be taking her name off your cards and expecting her to use her own card from then on.

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I don't want to appear as "punishing" her but she has decided to move out

This is one of those things you need to do no matter how it makes her feel. This isn't about making the wrong impression on her, it's about protecting yourself financially. Once she is out of the house she may very well turn her life into a scene out of "girls gone wild", you don't want to be on the hook for that. Just be firm and consistent about this.

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She is making preparation to move out. I am just trying to figure out when I should do this.

I would do the transition when she moves, that would be a good cutoff point that makes sense.

So I posted this to Sandi in her Reflections thing. I am thinking need to have a discussion with the W about this temporary separation. I agree to a certain amoutn of money to help her with expenses. Nothing more, nothing less. She wanted to use my washer and dryer at the house since her apartment wouldn't have one. She doesn't want to use the community ones. Also, she wants to be there in the morning to get the kids on the bus. She wants to be there in the afternoon to get the kids off the bus. All this in the name of not impacting the kids what so ever. However, if we were to go straight to divorce/dissolution, then I would not let her free range to the house. It is not like I get free range to her apartment.

In the summer, she spoke of having the kids. Again, not sure if she meant at "our" house or her apartment. But if we were divorced, it definitely would not be my house. There are consequences for her decisions. This should be as if she was single and living by herself. As if we were divorced.

Is this fair to discuss with her. Lay down the expectations of this separation. I think she is trying to cake eat and save face to the children. What is your thoughts, AnotherStander and Sandi?

So we got into a heated argument yesterday when I wanted to talk to her about her coming and going with the kids. Looking back at it now, it appeared to be controlling on how I cane across. She thought based on what I was talking to her about was that I was going to prevent her or limit her time with the kids. This is not the case at all but that is how it came across.

This is something I will be bringing up to my IC today. I have a lot more thank thought to work on. Self control, not being controlling, communicating better, listening. A lot. It is going to take some time to get these changes but I can do it. I will need support. My BIL is my life coach right now. When j stray from me, he has me refocus on me. I lack self confidence due to recent depression. I was not always lacking self confidence. I need to rehab. It. By having self confidence, j will learn to love myself first. I need tk stop focusing on the W or the R.

It will have Iran up and downs. She might be filing for D.m based on the discussion last night. I can�t control that. The BiL told me that I need to release all control and tell myself what will happen will happen. I can�t prevent it. I can only control me. I need to stop trying to fix things or do things. I need to refocus all of my attention on myself. Even my therapy appointments have been focusing on my R or my W. I am going to start focusing all that attention on myself.

I don�t know if it helps but I watched an episode of the simpsons where they sing que sera sera .it helped me and the story may be helpful, but I sing it to myself when I need to let go .i feel your pain buddy , be strong, you can do it

Originally Posted by AnthonyA

So I posted this to Sandi in her Reflections thing. I am thinking need to have a discussion with the W about this temporary separation. I agree to a certain amoutn of money to help her with expenses. Nothing more, nothing less. She wanted to use my washer and dryer at the house since her apartment wouldn't have one. She doesn't want to use the community ones. Also, she wants to be there in the morning to get the kids on the bus. She wants to be there in the afternoon to get the kids off the bus. All this in the name of not impacting the kids what so ever. However, if we were to go straight to divorce/dissolution, then I would not let her free range to the house. It is not like I get free range to her apartment.

Do you need help with the kids? I mean I do understand you not wanting her to come and go as she pleases, but if you need help then let her help. Maybe you can establish some ground rules like other than getting the kids off in the morning and back in the afternoon she is not to stop by unexpectedly without calling or texting first. My ex was just dropping by and letting herself in nearly every day after S, I finally asked her to respect my privacy and call/text before coming by, and to knock instead of just walking in. And she did honor that.

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There are consequences for her decisions. This should be as if she was single and living by herself. As if we were divorced.

Well you can't show her the consequences, she's got to discover that on her own. I see too many LBS's cut off their nose to spite their face and in the end the LBS pays for it instead of the WAS. For example- you refuse to let her come by to "teach her a lesson" but then you end up struggling because you're showing up to work late and leaving early to deal with the kids. Meanwhile she's living it up because she doesn't have to deal with the kids in the morning and afternoon. So your plan backfires, it ends up hurting you and doing nothing to teach her a lesson. So like we always say, do what is right for YOU and the kids. Don't do something to hurt or punish your W or "open her eyes". That will happen to her naturally as a result of S and D. At first she'll enjoy her single life, but eventually she'll realize the grass isn't greener and then she may learn to miss you.

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Hey Sandi, I appreciate all your help so far on my thread. So you know, my W and I are going to separate. She is moving to an apartment down the street. It is just a 1 bedroom and won't have washer/dryer hook up. This is a temporary separation to let her see what single life would be.

She mentioned keeping her part time job to help get the kids on and off the bus and then watching them in the summer. We have not talked about logistics but I don't want her thinking she would have the luxury of staying at "our" house and all the extra room and yard where she can do whatever and let the kids play. Also, since there is no washer/dryer hook up she had asked if she could do the laundry at "our" house still. I made the mistake of saying yes. No reading a lot of your reflections, I should have said No.

I am trying to figure out how to go about saying, you want to see what single life looks like or divorce life looks like, you need to do these things are your own and not at this house. Also, she has mentioned that she does not want to impact the kids as much as possible. I did make the mistake that divorce would make impacts to the kids. We still need to come up with logistics and such. I guess I can backtrack on the washer/dryer stuff at that point and other things to say that if we were divorced, you wouldn't have access to that stuff. What is your suggestion on this. You can reply here or in my thread. TIA

Being a skeptic whenever a WW is in the picture, I see several potential problems...�.but there's some things I'm not sure you are seeing clearly. I feel that you want her to experience this separation with the same intensity if you were divorced. It's not going to happen. Not with her living down the street in a one bedroom apartment and working at a part time job, while you give financial support and have the kids fulltime.

Does she plan to have the kids spend some time at her apartment? Whenever a WW says she will leave the kids with the H, I immediately see issues...�.especially when she has an apartment on the same street. However, if that's what you both want, then you need to realize she will want to spend time with them somewhere. It will be easy for her to drop by after work (around dinner time) to see them. And you've already told her she could do her laundry there, (which is another can of worms), but you don't want her thinking she can do whatever with the room and the yard while the kids play? It's a mess and one thing leads to another until it gets hard to know where to draw the line.

I think you would like to have a setup that would resemble a divorced couple, where she has to respect "your" place, just as you do "her" place. I get it, I would too. The problem is that most WW's we've seen on the board still think of the marital home as "their" place. If the H sets tight boundaries of when & how she can come & go during the S period, it makes the WW angry. She will claim he is controlling or being unfair, punitive, yada, yada. So, it's a tough position for the H, especially if he intends to keep the kids solely at his place.

You need to look at your main purpose for this physical separation. You continue to refer to it as "temporary". Is it b/c you hold out hope there will be a reconciliation, or is it b/c you want her to experience reality? I would guess it's both. However, I just don't think you will be able to treat it as a "temporary" separation, and .expect her to conduct things the same as if you were divorced. That being, having her treat "your" place as if it no longer her home. If you moved out into an apartment and equally shared kids time with her...�.then she would probably respect it as "your" place. But if the kids are left in the marital home in dad's custody...�.there's usually a problem with the WW's comings and goings. It has been rare to read about a WW leaving the marital home and the kids behind...�.and .how they don't take advantage some way. She still sees it as her home just as much as his, and she wants her private apartment without giving up all the benefits from her previous place. If she's going to be keeping the kids at your place, you've just got a mess, and I don't think she's going to treat it as if she's detached while taking care of the kids there. I understand, but I don't think it's going to be like you want.

Plus, if things are not split up, then she has most of her things left in the home. Have the two of you discussed splitting household items? This is another side to the temporary thing. If you see the S as only temporary, then you (or she) may see no point in dividing things......and she probably won't have much room in that apartment. I'm rambling, but can you see how it can quickly get messy? I think you want to experience the S as if it were like a divorce, but realistically, I don't think your setup will be the same.

The other thing I want to warn you is that most WW's will call on the H to fix whatever is needed in the apartment, their car, computer, etc. Some of it is out of habit. So, you need to be prepared and know how you want to respond. You may tell her to call someone else, or you may want to take it as an opportunity to interact with her. She may fool me and not act like other WW's, but you need to think about this and how you want to handle it.

She wants her little apartment to have to herself, but she wants you to be available when she needs something. And as Another Stander pointed out, you may need her to be available to keep the kids.

Have you discussed this with your lawyer? Do you know what you can and cannot do legally? Just curious, but why did she ask if she could keep her part time job? I think she's going to expect more financial support (once she's out of the house) than you may be ready to give.....or continue to give.

Sorry for rambling.

So since this is not a legal separation, the L will not get involved as a written document is meaningless. She wouldhave the kids over to her apartment from time to time during this, mainly on alternating weekends. The girls are young where they need to have a parent at home to get them off the bus (next year, that is not the case). She will be there every morning to get them on the school bus. I don't have to adjust my schedule at all. This separation will require her to get up earlier, and be at the house before I leave (I am at work by 6AM so she has to be there by 5:45AM for me to get to work). She will then stay every day until I get off of work and then leave.

In the summer (if we are still S), she would have the kids during the day and I would get them in the evening after work since her part time job is through the school district, she gets any day the kids have off. She had asked during the dissolution of marriage talks if I was okay with her keeping her part time job while she got her master's. I told her that if we got divorced, that was not any of my decision on what she did since I would be required to pay spousal support for 3 years and that is it. On this separation, it is up to her as well if she wanted to get a full time job or what but that is up to her (she won't).

She is looking to buy some plates, glasses, etc that match our current set at our house and buy some cheap pans, etc. This way, if we R in the future, we just combine the stuff she already bought that matches.

We sat down yesterday after the blow up Tuesday night, and we decided to not pursue a D but to look at S and give us time and space away from each other. Limit our talks to kids only.

During this discussion, she mentioned that it seems I have been focusing too much attention on this OM. This is after I said that I have been up and down with her because I have been to focused on her and the R and not me. I was dumbfounded that she is surprised I am focused on the OM. If there was no more OM, I would not be as angry. But the fact that she has openly said she would not get rid of the OM and says stuff like I am taking a "step back" (whatever that means), I would continue to be angry and upset while in the house. This S has a lot to do with her refusal to cut off all contact with him.

My goal from this S is to be able to work on myself (found more things i need to work on and have IC focusing on that). This will allow me to have the "out of sight, out of mind" with her. She said to me about the kids and me, that maybe "absence will grow the heart fonder". She has admitted to putting up a wall around me and the children. hell, last night she admitted that she just stays in her BR to eat dinner as me and the kids eat downstairs together. She has closed up. I am hoping that her being away from the children and me, will allow her to work on herself and go through her journey and the process she needs.

And during this time, I can focus on me and my 180s to become a man a fool would want to leave. Then we can see if we can R in the following months.

She had the real big chance to file for D after Tuesday's blow up which I realized sounded controlling on how I came about it. This is a new 180 that I need to fix ASAP. She even called to schedule an appointment. We talked when she got home and that is when we decided to continue the S. It could have been a bluff but it was definitely heated. She yelled big time in front of the kids. She admitted yesterday that she had so much anger, that she wanted to hit me (she said that this was the first time she felt that being sober since most of the time she hit me, she was drinking or drunk).

That all sounds fine Anthony. I know you're not thrilled about her being around in the mornings and afternoons but as I said before it's a good compromise to limit your impact at work. Did y'all establish a timeline for how long this S will happen or is it open-ended?

open-ended but assume at least 3 to 6 months

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She had asked during the dissolution of marriage talks if I was okay with her keeping her part time job while she got her master's. I told her that if we got divorced, that was not any of my decision on what she did since I would be required to pay spousal support for 3 years and that is it. On this separation, it is up to her as well if she wanted to get a full time job or what but that is up to her (she won't).

Maybe she was asking if it was okay, b/c it would affect how much/little time she would be available to keep the kids?

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I was dumbfounded that she is surprised I am focused on the OM. If there was no more OM, I would not be as angry. But the fact that she has openly said she would not get rid of the OM and says stuff like I am taking a "step back" (whatever that means), I would continue to be angry and upset while in the house. This S has a lot to do with her refusal to cut off all contact with him.

The two of you do have a communication problem, don't you? Have you not made it clear that this whole separation thing about your boundary of not being in an open MR? It doesn't sound as if you did. Why else would she be so surprised you are focused on the OM? The reason she's going to give for the S will be Anthony's issues. I think you need to brace yourself, b/c that's the excuse she'll probably give family & friends. "She just couldn't take living with Anthony any longer". So now, if you try to tell her it's b/c she did not honor your boundary.........it won't have any strength behind it. I thought you had already made that clear, but it is sounding as if she made the decision to leave and you just agreed to it without ever mentioning your boundary. If that's the truth, then don't try to come back at her now about her disrespecting your boundary, b/c she won't see the S as a consequence for dishonoring that boundary. Am I making sense? Yes, go ahead and physically S, but it's too late to say anything about it being the result of her affair. Just don't even try to have another conversation along those lines. Not now.

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She had the real big chance to file for D after Tuesday's blow up which I realized sounded controlling on how I came about it. This is a new 180 that I need to fix ASAP. She even called to schedule an appointment. We talked when she got home and that is when we decided to continue the S. It could have been a bluff but it was definitely heated. She yelled big time in front of the kids. She admitted yesterday that she had so much anger, that she wanted to hit me (she said that this was the first time she felt that being sober since most of the time she hit me, she was drinking or drunk).

Sometimes, the H tries to say something to his W that was worded to him on the board. But some of that stuff can't be said to the WW, b/c it will sound controlling or whatever to her. Okay, so let's try to get past all of that and look at your plan. I think your goal is good, but may need a little fine tuning. Work on yourself......absolutely. Focus on healing your inner child or whatever issues from the past is causing problems in your adult relationships. If you really work on just Anthony's issues, there may be no time to focus on your WW.....which will be good. And here's the thing, you can't really heal as long as you are watching her and her personal life. It's going to be like a hot poker sticking in your heart. The best route to take is to let her go.

Let her go. Don't fret over little things. Don't try to control how much cake she eats. Do what you think is fair and considerate, and don't try to make her feel something.....b/c you can't. Trust me, if you really let her go, she'll sense it. It's the biggest thing you could do to provoke her having a sense of loss for you. B/c if you genuinely let her go, she has lost you.

That has to be the hardest thing. Letting go. Is that mean detach? I wish there were tricks. I have read the detaching thread somewhat but yet to find a technique to detach. I know it is a continued process. One day I think I am detached and then the next, not so much.

On the OM and boundary. I have communicated that many times. However, she likes to spin it around to say that she needs away from me because of my issues. It is what it is on that. I have made it perfectly clear, numerous times.

We shall see. I just started meditating 15 minutes a day to help me relax. IC continues. Will see how this goes over time. I will continue to detach but let go. Letting go does not mean being cold or mean. I have been cold and angry around her. I am trying to figure this out and so far, nothing is helping.

Continuing to try and detach, drop the rope and let her go. She has been staying across the street but been over here a lot the last couple days. We have been mostly nice to each other. I answer questions as short as possible. She is texting me a lot more and I don�t respond unless it is a question or about the kids. I went out last night and got back around midnight. Continuing to try and focus all of my attention on me and the kids. Doing more home improvement projects and such. All I can do.

Have you considered googling "how to emotionally detach from someone"?

Yes I have and no help so far. She likes dangling carrots saying things like we need to look into getting a new car. Or we will get a bigger dog after our small dog some day. Making these statements as she is moving out and doing GGW.

Originally Posted by sandi2

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Let her go. Don't fret over little things. Don't try to control how much cake she eats. Do what you think is fair and considerate, and don't try to make her feel something.....b/c you can't. Trust me, if you really let her go, she'll sense it. It's the biggest thing you could do to provoke her having a sense of loss for you. B/c if you genuinely let her go, she has lost you.

I don�t see what would or could happen if she senses she lost me. She has made it clear she hates me. She is done (said it at least 8 times). So if and when I can finally let go, what would hat do? I see it doing nothing.

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I lack self confidence due to recent depression. I was not always lacking self confidence. I need to rehab. It. By having self confidence, j will learn to love myself first. I need tk stop focusing on the W or the R.

I suggest you make this one of your primary goals. Working out and eating healthy meals plays a big part in fighting depression. Purposely socializing with people who are happy and who lift your spirits, is another proactive step. Having a support system, and being people who love/like you is important. Finding new adventures, picking up favorite hobbies, going where the people are will help you. Laughter is one of the best medications for depression. Watch funny movies, listen to upbeat music, read self help books. These are things you have to do "on purpose" in your quest to fight depression. You have to consistently seek out the things that build up your soul/spirit, b/c otherwise, it probably won't find its way to you.

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My goal from this S is to be able to work on myself (found more things i need to work on and have IC focusing on that). This will allow me to have the "out of sight, out of mind" with her. She said to me about the kids and me, that maybe "absence will grow the heart fonder". She has admitted to putting up a wall around me and the children. hell, last night she admitted that she just stays in her BR to eat dinner as me and the kids eat downstairs together. She has closed up. I am hoping that her being away from the children and me, will allow her to work on herself and go through her journey and the process she needs.

How much of this paragraph is about you, and how much is it about her? Your goals are about Anthony, not your WW. ((hugs))

Although you say you need to work on listening skills, bear in mind that listening and believing are not the same. Yes, she throws a lot of carrots in front of you. That's very typical of WW's, b/c they want the H to be the backup plan just in case plan A doesn't work out. Therefore, she has to say something to make you think there is hope. What works against you, Anthony, is believing what she says. You are like a fish grabbing at every hook she drops in the water. Stop going after the hook, and try to have a nonchalant attitude or thought about her carrots.

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That has to be the hardest thing. Letting go. Is that mean detach? I wish there were tricks. I have read the detaching thread somewhat but yet to find a technique to detach. I know it is a continued process. One day I think I am detached and then the next, not so much.

We shall see. I just started meditating 15 minutes a day to help me relax. IC continues. Will see how this goes over time. I will continue to detach but let go. Letting go does not mean being cold or mean. I have been cold and angry around her. I am trying to figure this out and so far, nothing is helping.

Detaching does seem to be difficult for the LBS to grasp. The LBS is seeing his family fall apart, and it is an emotional experience. Detaching doesn't mean you experience no feelings. We are not talking about the psychological disorder of emotional detachment (even if we refer to it as emotionally detaching). It means you step away from the source of all the negative emotional drama. Your emotions need space & time to calm down so that you don't react impulsively. Your brain needs to be able to think clearly and make intelligent decisions that are not overwhelmed with emotions. I mean, look how difficult it is for you to think about goals that aren't connected some way to effecting your WW. It's really hard for you to think of anything but your WW, b/c your emotions about the sitch are impacting your thoughts to the degree you can't get it out of your head. It's constantly there.

I'm not saying to stop loving your W. You may have to love her from a far, in order to protect your mental health. This is something that takes time and patience with yourself. You've been in a intimate relationship for years with this woman, share kids with her, etc. I'm sorry, but there are no tricks or shortcuts. GAL for real is about as close to a method as you can get, based on what DB members have posted. But when you are GAL to help you detach, you have to seriously GAL for yourself, and not do it to make her feel a certain way. Why? B/c your mind will be on wondering how it's affecting her. Just get out there and enjoy yourself, and don't wonder if she's missing you, or if she's jealous, etc.

So yeah, detaching is hard work, and you are doing it for yourself......not her. It is a form of saving yourself. That's why we tell you to focus on you. Detaching is a way of moving forward with your life. (I did not say it's a form of ending your M.) If you are ever to have peace of mind, you have to detach. It is a healing process, and it usually comes gradually, rather than swiftly.

Is detaching the same as "letting go"? Well, I think it goes hand in hand. You have to let something go, if you are going to be detached from it. You can see how that works physically, and that's the easiest. Mentally, it might be more difficult, b/c we tend to pick it back up again. To let it go, first you have to make the decision to turn lose of it. Drop it and don't look back at it and don't pick it up and carry it around with you. If you can't drop it immediately, then at least be in charge of when, where and how you look at it. For instance, don't talk about it to everyone you know. You have your IC, your BIL, and us.......and that's enough. Don't mentally dwell on it all the time. Tell yourself you have xx amount of time per day to think about it, and then you put it away. When you mentally dwell on it, you give it more power to take away your peace, and it messes with your head. So, can you do that much? Decide when, where and to whom you discuss it, and/or allow it to take up time in your brain?

Years ago, I would become obsessive about other people when I thought they didn't like me or treated me unfairly. I became obsessive about family members who wouldn't conduct their lives the way I thought they should. I would nearly drive my H insane by constantly venting. I wouldn't even realize just how much I was truly talking about it, until he would complain. I was all bent out of shape about something my sibling had done, and finally my dad pointed out that I could not control my sibling, and they weren't going to live the way I thought they should. I was stunned! I never saw myself as a controlling type. That was the beginning of me learning to let things go. It took years of various situations, and I have not perfected it........but I am so much better than I used to be. It's still a challenge when it comes to my immediate family members. I don't understand why they won't listen to my wisdom. (lol)

So, even though we use the phrase, "let it go", it does take practice. I do understand how challenging it can be to stop rolling it around in your mind. It can get so bad it's like it is taped to the end of your nose and that's all you can see. It can consume your life. The things I previously said about GAL, focusing on being healthy, etc., combined with letting the sitch go......work hand in hand. I wish there was a trick to it, but it's plain hard work.

You can do it, Anthony, I know you can if you'll keep trying. The most difficult for you will be to let go of trying to control the outcome of this sitch. You want to control your WW's decisions, actions, consequences and feelings. You can't do it. If she wants to believe she's leaving you, rather than b/c she disrespected your boundary........there's nothing you can do about it.

I believe there should be consequences for someone who disrespects my personal boundaries. It's my choice as to what action I do when the boundary is disrespected. It may, or may not, hit the other person with stiff consequences. They may laugh at me or think whatever they want to think. I can't control what they feel. All I can do is control myself, and protect my boundaries the best way I can in that situation. Your WW refuses to take responsibility for her wrong doing. Therefore, she's going to act as if this separation was all her idea. You don't like it, but what can you do? Are you going to find ways to punish her? I hope not, b/c that's not your job. Do you see what I'm trying to explain?

I talk a lot about how the WW has to suffer loss, consequences for her decisions, etc. The H can enforce boundaries. He can stop serving cake (in some circumstances), he can stop playing happy family. cut off some of her benefits from the MR, and many other things I have listed in my WW threads. But here's the thing........he should do these actions from a place of that's based on his core values, his self respect, spiritual belief, etc. He is not to intentionally punish her, He is not her judge and executioner. That job belongs to a higher power than her H. He can't determine how she'll feel. She may not feel anything he takes away is a loss for her. Most people assume losing her children would be a terrible loss, but what they don't understand is.......it may not be the loss that will smack her in the face hard enough to make her see the reality that she has caused due to her wayward decisions. Nobody knows what that loss will be for that particular WW.

Your previously referred to some things I said about separation in my "Reflections" thread, and you realized you had messed up. You have to look at your situation. What you are going to have in this type of separation, will resemble an ih-house S in some ways. Therefore, you won't be able to be as strict as you might could where she wasn't going & coming to the home. You just can't have it both ways. If you need someone to stay with your young children so that you can leave early for work and in the evening until you get home..... then you are limited to how much you can control about how much room she uses, or what she does while she's there. I mean, you may decide to lock your bedroom, or something like that.....but you have to be reasonable. Not wanting her to use the big yard for the kids to play, is not reasonable when you are relying on her to keep the kids. See what I mean?

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I suggest you make this one of your primary goals. Working out and eating healthy meals plays a big part in fighting depression. Purposely socializing with people who are happy and who lift your spirits, is another proactive step. Having a support system, and being people who love/like you is important. Finding new adventures, picking up favorite hobbies, going where the people are will help you. Laughter is one of the best medications for depression. Watch funny movies, listen to upbeat music, read self help books. These are things you have to do "on purpose" in your quest to fight depression. You have to consistently seek out the things that build up your soul/spirit, b/c otherwise, it probably won't find its way to you.

I have been listening and reading a lot of self help books. I am eating healthier and have been working out big time. I am doing planks, side planks, push ups, and running. My goal is to have a six pack again by mid-spring.

I do need to start laughing more. I have been trying to get around more joyful occasions and forcing myself out. I need to seek happiness instead of dwelling.

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How much of this paragraph is about you, and how much is it about her? Your goals are about Anthony, not your WW. ((hugs))

Although you say you need to work on listening skills, bear in mind that listening and believing are not the same. Yes, she throws a lot of carrots in front of you. That's very typical of WW's, b/c they want the H to be the backup plan just in case plan A doesn't work out. Therefore, she has to say something to make you think there is hope. What works against you, Anthony, is believing what she says. You are like a fish grabbing at every hook she drops in the water. Stop going after the hook, and try to have a nonchalant attitude or thought about her carrots.

So we had a discussion last night. I moved back into the MBR and rearranged the room a little to my liking. Cleaned it and such. I cleaned the dresser that you have to pass to get into the master bath. She arrived to take her shower and see the kids last night. She asked if I moved into the MBR. I said yes and she had to grab her stuff to move to basement bathroom. I kind of forgot that I left only three things on the dresser (it used to be dirty and had all this extra crap just laying there). My workout bag, my bluetooth speaker, and dissolution of marriage template (with child support calculations with it) printed out.

She took a shower while I was finishing up getting supper done and I was about to hand wash dishes. She came up to me and said can we talk. I asked about what. She said the paperwork. I asked her what paperwork (I forgot about it at this time). She just gave me a look. I asked if she wanted to go upstairs and talk (away from the kids). She said yes. I go up to the room and notice the paperwork was no longer on the dresser. She came up soon after and I said what paperwork and she had it in her hands. She asked me why I had the dissolution printed out. I, first, asked her why she was looking through my stuff. She just said she was getting soap from the bathroom and saw it. I didn't respond to that but just said that I am just getting educated on the process.

She said she thought that maybe something happened that made me start wanting to do a divorce or dissolution since the time we decided for S. I said that I am just getting educated on the process since I have been threatened with D a few times. She thought when I said that, that I admitted to threatening her with D. I said no, I have been threatened a few times with D so I decided to get even more educated in the process. I then told her that I am hoping for the best which she stopped and said, evidently not. I said, let me finish, I am hoping for the best, but planning for the worst. I then said based on words and actions, I can see a D is more likely than R. She then said how do you know, it has only been a few days since we decided to S. I just said, "look, I am just getting educated on the process of divorce or dissolution to protect me." She didn't like this response but I kept an even tone throughout the discussion.

She then mentioned her starting to take her first master's class and asked if I wanted her to charge it on my credit card or hers. I said hers. She then mentioned the car she would drive has almost 120K miles on it. I had mentioned at one point of needing to get a new car soon. She said we should look into it. I told her that based on our current relationship status, I do not want to look at that financial situation until I know where we stand. She mentioned that I was the one to bring it up before. I just told her that after thinking it through, it is not something I want to do right now. She then asked what happens if it breaks down. I told her we would have to cross that bridge when we come to it.

She has complained before lately that "I talk to her like I am talking to a co-worker closing a business deal" I am not showing emotion when she gets upset or happy. I just try to keep an even tone. Not sure if that is good or bad on this. She has mentioned this numerous times lately.

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Detaching does seem to be difficult for the LBS to grasp.

I won't put the rest of your stuff in this (loved the message but this pretty much grabs the attention of what I need to do. My BIL has been saying a lot of the same stuff that you have said, Sandi. You assisted him in his growth so it makes sense. LOL

Detaching is hard but as my BIL says, I am still expecting expectations. He said that I need to let go of all expectations. He said it is a gradual process and it will take time. Once I get to that moment where anything she says or does, is not surprising or I set up expectations, that is when I would know that I have detached. I have read the detaching thread a lot but it hit me when you wrote again about the higher power and punishing her. I felt better or at ease last night after reading that. I know detaching is hard but I will continue to try to get out of my head and stick to talking to you guys (love all your support Sandi), BIL and my IC. BIL keeps telling me to focus on me, too much focus is on the WW. It doesn't help that she is across the street. At least eventually she will be down the road about 3 to 4 minutes and not right outside my front window will be better.

My BIL said last nights discussion with the WW was a small victory that I should be proud of. I didn't get upset, angry, have any emotional things. I just laid out my facts and then I went back to doing the dishes. I felt better knowing that I at least let her know that I am preparing for the worst and educating myself on it. I will not be threatened anymore with D.

Originally Posted by AnthonyA

[quote]She has complained before lately that "I talk to her like I am talking to a co-worker closing a business deal" I am not showing emotion when she gets upset or happy. I just try to keep an even tone. Not sure if that is good or bad on this. She has mentioned this numerous times lately.

This is perfect!! I would keep this up.

Anthony, I have told many other LBSs here that one of the most powerful wake-up calls my WW received was when I told her I had contacted a D lawyer. Her sobering up came very soon after. Not saying that to give you any expectations but to tell you that this discovery of these papers by her may be a good thing. I think some WWs really don't want to give up what they have, but they want to push things as close to the edge as possible. When they realize that they are in danger of going over the edge, sometimes they pull back.

It�s the difference between living a fantasy life and the real one. Well...welcome to reality W!

Just keep doing what you are doing A, keep DB.

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She has complained before lately that "I talk to her like I am talking to a co-worker closing a business deal" I am not showing emotion when she gets upset or happy. I just try to keep an even tone. Not sure if that is good or bad on this. She has mentioned this numerous times lately.

It's difficult to explain the craziness of a WW, but I'll try here. When she sees that she gets no emotional reaction from you, she feels she's losing her grip on you. Her arrogance suggests that her H should actually "care" that she's upset or happy. Right? I mean, women have always expressed their feelings in order to get a desired reaction from the H. It just funny when you see a wayward W who can't wait to get away from her H, continue to expect him to cater to her feelings.....or to be affected by them. However, we see it all the time right here on the board.

WW's have an arrogant mindset, and IMHO, that's another little something that sets them apart from the WAW. I said it a long time ago and I stick by it. The difference in a WW and WAW is in their mentality.

Anthony,

I just wanted to drop in and say good job, I can see that you're making progress. Don't stop doing that. Good luck amigo!

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw

Anthony,

I just wanted to drop in and say good job, I can see that you're making progress. Don't stop doing that. Good luck amigo!

Thanks, trying to move forward. Slow progress but not as bad as a few days ago. So I will take these as victories.

Originally Posted by sandi2

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She has complained before lately that "I talk to her like I am talking to a co-worker closing a business deal" I am not showing emotion when she gets upset or happy. I just try to keep an even tone. Not sure if that is good or bad on this. She has mentioned this numerous times lately.

It's difficult to explain the craziness of a WW, but I'll try here. When she sees that she gets no emotional reaction from you, she feels she's losing her grip on you. Her arrogance suggests that her H should actually "care" that she's upset or happy. Right? I mean, women have always expressed their feelings in order to get a desired reaction from the H. It just funny when you see a wayward W who can't wait to get away from her H, continue to expect him to cater to her feelings.....or to be affected by them. However, we see it all the time right here on the board.

WW's have an arrogant mindset, and IMHO, that's another little something that sets them apart from the WAW. I said it a long time ago and I stick by it. The difference in a WW and WAW is in their mentality.

My son had been recognized at school so I took leave to go tk it. Inforgot except last minute and the W never reminded me. J don�t think she probably knew until recently about the honor he was given today. However, I show up and she shows up after me and sits next to me. During the 1 minute breaks between grades, the instructor had is talk to a �neighbor� about citizenship, accountability, respect, and empathy (CARE) and how we used it this past quarter. She just looked at me and was trying to talk to me about it. I told her I have nothing to say on that one as I am just taking things one day at a time. The next break the instructor had us speak to the neighbor about someone who helped them out. She mentioned the neighbor letting her have a place to stay. I just said my BIL since I could not mention this site. Lol. Anyways, the next break, they had another and I just quit answering or talking to her as it was not conducive. I just took pictures and then said bye to my son when it was over and left. I wasn�t cold towards her but the atmosphere just felt weird and she knew it so j just quit goin along with it for my mental health.

Not much to update. I have been feeling much better. I have been focusing on myself and the children. I felt bad, yesterday. I woke up the D7s to get ready for school since i worked from home and W was not there yet. One of D7s said that she didn't care that mommy wasn't there. She then said because I am there and I am her happy place. I just said thanks for me being your happy place. My house has been cleaner and I have been more strict with the kids on cleaning up their messes instead of letting things go and pile up. I think they are doing better with some authority that was lacking the last couple months as I dealt. I have been working out big time the last two weeks and just focused on myself instead of WW. Her mood changes are not impacting me. She sent me some hateful texts when I was at basketball and I just never responded. Came home and never said a word to her and she left. Feeling good, IC even said she noticed a change from last week. I have been feeling much better since Sunday.

Thanks for the support everyone!

Detaching pretty well right now. Her arguments are one sided. I don�t respond and move on. I have so far dropped the rope as my BIL has said. I might have detached too much. I am to the point that I find her unattractive with that hate and angry tone and personality she now has. I have felt this since Sunday. I have started doing more research in divorce and or dissolution. I just am not in love with this woman any more. I have been happier and healthier since she moved out.

I am in the best athletic shape in 15 years. I feel happier and more productive at work again. Feeling good. I know I am supposed to continue DB but I am right now looking forward to being divorced and moving on with the better me. I am taking a few weeks to decide but I feel good.

Hi A,

I'm glad you're feeling better, I too have recently made some progress in detaching and feeling a lot better for it. On the initiating D question I recently had some very wise advice from Steve & AS on my thread.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Lusa, Steve is right, when you get to the point of wanting to initiate D yourself it has nothing to do with hoping you'll wake your W up or snap her out of it. I mean I can hardly believe I have to say this (but this isn't the first time): divorce is NOT a tactic to save your marriage! That would seem to go without saying, LOL! Anyway as Steve said, when I got to the point of pushing the D through it wasn't out of anger or malice or desperation. I was ready to move on. I didn't have a care in the world who she was messaging or spending the night with or whatever. It just didn't matter to me anymore. The woman I fell in love with and married was long gone at that point, and the person who replaced her wasn't someone I was attracted to or had much interest in seeing or interacting with beyond co-parenting. All the LBS fog was gone, the rose-colored glasses were off and the decision was made based on what was best for me moving forward.

You have to get to that same point, and you have to be there a long time before pulling the trigger in my opinion. If there is any question or doubt in your mind then no you are not ready yet. At first you may go 4 or 5 days convinced you want D and then have a day where you question it. You are STILL not ready if that happens. When you get to the point where whenever you think about it you think "yes that needs to happen" and there are no doubts ever, and you feel like that for a month or more, then you're getting there. Honestly in the months before D I didn't even really think about it that much. It wasn't something I laid awake at night thinking about. But when I did think about it my thoughts were usually "yeah we need to get this over with". IE, the marriage had been over a long time and it was just a formality that needed to be taken care of.

Definitely not a tactic. I just do not care about our relationship anymore. I have been too busy focusing on me and the kids that I don�t think about her much except when she texts me or tries calling. Just not in love with her anymore. I am going to take a few weeks to pull the trigger but doing all my research on refi of house, value of cars, etc to get my romana es ready plus spousal support for a couple years. I am completely detached right now. I know it is a continuous battle but she has made it easier being so rude and hateful. My self worth is more than what she is treating me so I will move on and be better for it. Much of luck in your sitch.

"In-love".... a phrase that I really feel a lot of ways about. You certainly shouldn't marry or divorce based on such a fleeting feeling.

Originally Posted by AnthonyA

I am completely detached right now.

Wishful thinking.

And then I think about her, some of the things she's seen you do, and I wonder how hard it has to be for her. Of course, that doesn't justify what she's been up to, but I don't think you need to just never respond to her. If you were still in deep pain, then maybe cutting off communication would be worthwhile. But a detached person wouldn't simply stare at someone talking to them and not respond. Now if you aren't responding b/c she's throwing a tantrum then I understand that.

I also wonder where you are at with breaking some of those chemical habits and changing your thinking about some things? I hope you are keeping focused there.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw

"In-love".... a phrase that I really feel a lot of ways about. You certainly shouldn't marry or divorce based on such a fleeting feeling.

Originally Posted by AnthonyA

I am completely detached right now.

Wishful thinking.

And then I think about her, some of the things she's seen you do, and I wonder how hard it has to be for her. Of course, that doesn't justify what she's been up to, but I don't think you need to just never respond to her. If you were still in deep pain, then maybe cutting off communication would be worthwhile. But a detached person wouldn't simply stare at someone talking to them and not respond. Now if you aren't responding b/c she's throwing a tantrum then I understand that.

I also wonder where you are at with breaking some of those chemical habits and changing your thinking about some things? I hope you are keeping focused there.

When I say I don't respond, I don't respond to her negativity or texts to me that are to start an argument. I answer her questions as needed and as short as possible. If it is about the kids,I answer, but it it is just a response to tell me something like information, I just don't even say OK on the messages.

Why do people think I have a chemical habit? I have not drank any alcohol or felt the need since Jan 28th. I did that to hang out with people across the street and since my wife was drinking. I have been working out and feeling healthier. I work out every night while the kids are in bed. I am reading, taking care of me. My BIL is my life coach as I call him and he agrees that he can tell a difference in my attitude, and my look out. My IC has said the same thing. I feel better. I am not worried what she does or says to me. Her attitude does not impact me. I am moving on with my life. My children have unfortunately been numb to her since she only visits for a few hours each weekend. She rushed them off to bed last night after only seeing them for a couple hours saying she had a long day and was tired.

Moving on and being happy.

Anthony, I think people asked that question because of how difficult it can be to do especially going through something traumatic.

I am a recovering alcoholic, and just hit 25 years sober. So I can relate.

If you go look at page 1 you mentioned excessive drinking, alcohol affecting your personal life, anti depressants, hanging out with alcoholics, marijuana, promiscuity, sleeping pills etc. You not drinking in 2 months is a pretty good sign that you aren't chemically dependent. I just remembered reading all that. I am hoping you didn't feel attacked b/c I think you're making great progress.

Originally Posted by AnthonyA

I am not worried what she does or says to me. Her attitude does not impact me. I am moving on with my life.

Moving on and being happy.

Well forgive me for being skeptical, but 2 months would be record-shattering short time for true detachment. I don't think it's possible unless you weren't really in love with her to begin with. What is far more likely is that you are trying to convince yourself you're detached, and hey I get that. We all want to rip the band-aid off and get the misery over with. Unfortunately grief recovery doesn't work that way. It's not linear, and it's not something you can just choose to shorten. Just be very careful because if you are ignoring your feelings or burying them deep inside then they will explode out 10 times worse at some unpredictable time in the future. The shortest path to recovery is through the pain, not around it.

So I got back from a spring break trip with the kiddos. My W wanted to talk tk me when we got back. We spoke about dissolution. She had went through the paperwork again and I had other things there that I was unaware I had. The do�s and donts from the website here. It was a copy and paste and cleaned up in word so no website was divulges.

We spoke about the dissolution and how I just don�t see a path to reconcile. She agreed. We spoke some more and we came up with some agreements and discussed the past a little (she did) and I told her I do not... she interrupted me and said, I know you don�t want to talk about the past. I said that it isn�t that I don�t want to talk about the past but I am done arguing about the past. I also told her that I am done apologizing for the past. She mentioned that well the OM was in the past. I asked her if she still talks to him. She said on occasion. I said then it is not the past but the present. We discussed a few more things about the kids and our history. She finally admitted that there were plenty of fun times together that she hadn�t mentioned in months. Everything was bad or unhappy times just a month ago. She couldn�t come up with one happy time a month ago when we spoke.

So we left the conversation with us both coming up with our view of a dissolution since 100% agreement would be needed and she left.

She also has noticed some changes. She said that my taste in music has changed and thought I was being hateful. I said I am not hateful. The hard rock gets me pumped for my workouts. She then mentioned how clean I have been keeping the house. Everything in its place and neat and tidy. She also mentioned that j am reading s lot which she knows I never liked reading. So she has noticed my 180s. I have been working out like nonstop as well. I am feeling like the best shape of my life in 15 years.

Another thing was her BFF was here at my house while I was at work during the first part of spring break. I told her that she is not welcome in this house. That was another reason that I am looking into dissolution because I am done with the partying and I believe her BFF is a toxic person and some of her other friends she is hanging out with are not ones that I want to have part of my life going forward.

I then get the following email from her that she must have wrote up right after our conversation:

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Thanks for the talk. It�s been very difficult Anthony. When we have conversations like we just had I feel better and more positive about things. Like there could be a chance. Then it backfires the next day or so... I do better with communicating when we�re both level headed.

I�m still very torn right now. This has absolutely nothing to do with a third party. Nothing whatsoever. You�ve gotta understand that. I wanted to leave because I was unhappy with us not because I started talking to someone else. I wouldn�t give up 17 years for some quick feelings for a stranger I just met. I know I said some [censored] to you while I was drinking and you also have to understand that it�s an over reactive response(because I was very drunk). Plus my emotions have been up and down with everything so how I might have thought I felt at that moment is not how I feel right now. I�m sure you can relate.

You also have to understand that if I decide to come back home(and if you agree on that as well) it�s b/c I want to get us to work and I completely got rid of the third party. You will just have to believe me. No handwritten notes. Just trust and being honest with each other. I�m not going to do something out of my normal realm like write a note. That�s not me. I am also not getting rid of my friends. I can allow space where you two aren�t around each other but I�m telling you all decisions I have made have been my own. She did rub off on me a little in the beginning but I straightened up before we started going to the bars. That�s the truth. The excessive drinking was just my response to the turmoil I felt our relationship was in. I was trying to take all of my pain away and feel numb. I�m a very emotionally expressive person and I act out in the fashion I have because of it. It�s part of those grandma genes for sure and hell you know how my dad is�.Has nothing to do with BFF or anyone else. I�m intense. I have come to realize that. I am a very dramatic and an intense person. I think you struggle with that because I am opposite of how you are. I don�t know if you can handle that. I truly don�t and I don�t mean that in a bad way I am just honestly not for sure.

I am totally fixated on where I feel we are at right now. I have been looking for anything and everything to tell me which direction to take. Lately I�ve only seen the bad so I�ve focused on dissolution or divorce. Then I talk to you today and I�m having mixed feelings� I am looking at how we do in communication and getting along and if I have feelings still. I can tell I still have feelings for you. I don�t know if they�re accurate or if I�m just trying to hold onto something that isn�t there anymore. Like a fa�ade. Does that make sense? A lot has happened. Trust has been broken we have both been dishonest. I have had trouble with you being emotionally withdrawn for a long time as well and I tried to cope and compensate through other means. I can�t keep doing that it has [censored] me up. I need more and I just don�t know if you can get there. I�m such an intense person Anthony I just don�t know if anyone can give me what I need. I�m probably better off alone. That�s why my grandmothers lived alone I know it.

For now I would like to continue at least what we�re doing since we�re on the same page and in decent communication. I will start working on the dissolution stuff and then we can get together for a conversation to see if we can come to an agreement. I don�t want to file anything. I just feel like we should at least have things set in case. Continue what we�re doing and try to keep on good terms with the communication. I�ve felt even more distant from how I perceived you were being. I think that is what the issue is on both sides. If you can continue with conversations like you had with me today it would be beneficial.

Wow. Anthony it sounds like your W is not only coming to terms with the present, but likes a part of the new you and the communication dynamics you are implementing.

Also Anthony a part of me understand your wife when she talks about her personality and her intensity. The parts where she says

"Thanks for the talk. It�s been very difficult Anthony. When we have conversations like we just had I feel better and more positive about things. Like there could be a chance. Then it backfires the next day or so... I do better with communicating when we�re both level headed."

" I�m a very emotionally expressive person and I act out in the fashion I have because of it. I�m intense. I have come to realize that. I am a very dramatic and an intense person. I think you struggle with that because I am opposite of how you are. I don�t know if you can handle that."

This resonated and stuck out with me particularly because I am an emotionally intense person with no filter. 10 years ago, a month after my wife and I were married, I lost my job due to some extraneous circumstance, but also continued to struggle with other certain jobs loss all throughout my life, due to mild impulses, or mild learning disabilities or anxieties. Anyway. 10 years ago I was assessed as not having ADD but ADD like symptoms, poor executive management, poor time management, performance frustration, and even an very mild auditory processing impairment for receiving verbal instructions with my left ear. Bare with me here as I an getting to my point. I was also assesent from my neuro psych interview 10 years ago as having possible BPD characteristics, and negative like thinking due to familial history. When I'm sad, people know it, and know about it. When I'm frustrated, confused, or upset, people know about it. When I am critical of myself or others, people know about it. When I'm happy and having a great time, people know about it. Im very expressive and not the type to bottle emotions and stuff things down. But they need healthy regulation. This im sure amongst other things has caused my marriage to deteriorate on my part. My W in the past has called it "the Dr. Jeckyl Mr. Hyde effect"

In other words one hour I love my W for who she is, and the next hour, I come across as critical and pissed at her, having called her lazy a few times in our MR, for sitting on the couch all day watching TV, playing games, and leaving her messes for me, which takes time away from my open ended projects for the last 7 years, for not cleaning up after her messes for 10 years, which costs me time and energy.

So I looked into BPD (Boarderline Personality Disorder) more after W BD'd me as a form of emotional regulation and therapy. I realized that I verbalize my feelings a lot with people close to me, and am the type that doesn't hold anything back, or anything in. When I am frustrated, W has perceived me as scary. I believe my reactions are somewhat normal, but could be less frequent, with less intensity. A few times I have banged the counter top in frustration. This apparently scares her. Its a bad learned behavior of mine. Sometimes I have said words impulsively without thinking of consequences, that once the barn door is open, I cannot take back, all for the sake of venting.

I have learned that in relationships, people with BPD, we are exciting and attractive people in the beginning, but have difficulties maintain very long term relationships due to emotional regulation, black and white thinking, a desire to have empathy, but a mild inability to express it, and other things.

Although I am only in my 3rd session. What BPD CBT/DBT training is about is about is emotional regulation, thought process, chain of event, triggers, etc. through identification, and assigned exercises.

May be helpful and useful to you if you look into all the different personaliy types, BPD, and also the different cluster personality types, and how they play out in relationships. Such as Cluster A Cluster B etc...It may give you some valuable insight on how to relate and communicate with your W better.

https://www.verywellmind.com/understanding-romantic-bpd-relationships-425217

https://www.psycom.net/personality-disorders/bpd-and-relationships/

It sounds as if you handled things very well. As for her email, it is very common for the WW to talk this way right after she sees that her H is not going to fight with her and is willing to set her free. She had some old feelings to rise enough to make her feel conflicted, but not to the degree she is willing to choose her H over her friends.

So, I suggest you not give any weight whatsoever to her email. It is no more than a temp check to see if you will nibble at her bait. If you feel you must respond, then just say, "I agree", and leave it at that. It will hit her hard to see that her little crumb of "torn feelings" is not enough to make you jump to pursue her.

When a woman is really in love with her man, she' ll give up every friend she has for him. He comes first with her. No friend, no GGW nights, ........nothing comes before her man. And, the woman in love will be willing to do most anything to be with her man. In the email, she clearly says she isn't going to change or give up her friends. She experienced some old feelings, but not nearly enough. She's not ready to put her MR first.

Nice insight Sandi. I'm just amazed on how feelings or emotions, regardless of how old or new, can be so indecisive and conflicting. Your right Sandi. It is a crumb of bait on a hook. Otherwise why would she intentionally mention it?

She is saying "I like what I'm seeing enough to reconsider, but I'm indecisive, and confused now with what I should do with it. I like it but its not enough for me, I need more." "So let's use this dynamic to fill out paperwork, and put it on the backburner for now, in case I change my mind again."

Originally Posted by sandi2

It sounds as if you handled things very well. As for her email, it is very common for the WW to talk this way right after she sees that her H is not going to fight with her and is willing to set her free. She had some old feelings to rise enough to make her feel conflicted, but not to the degree she is willing to choose her H over her friends.

So, I suggest you not give any weight whatsoever to her email. It is no more than a temp check to see if you will nibble at her bait. If you feel you must respond, then just say, "I agree", and leave it at that. It will hit her hard to see that her little crumb of "torn feelings" is not enough to make you jump to pursue her.

When a woman is really in love with her man, she' ll give up every friend she has for him. He comes first with her. No friend, no GGW nights, ........nothing comes before her man. And, the woman in love will be willing to do most anything to be with her man. In the email, she clearly says she isn't going to change or give up her friends. She experienced some old feelings, but not nearly enough. She's not ready to put her MR first.

She came back over later that night. I just told her I got the email and I didn�t know what to say and left it at that.

Perfect!

Don't be surprised if she tries to have sex with you. That's always a big temp checking avenue. Don't show any interest. Don't believe anything she says. It's nothing but a test to see how emotionally attached you are to her. The only way the LBH can come out on top is to show he is over her. Your WW is nowhere serious about a "chance".

Originally Posted by sandi2

Perfect!

Don't be surprised if she tries to have sex with you. That's always a big temp checking avenue. Don't show any interest. Don't believe anything she says. It's nothing but a test to see how emotionally attached you are to her. The only way the LBH can come out on top is to show he is over her. Your WW is nowhere serious about a "chance".

LOL. I highly doubt she would try. But if offered it would be a hell no. I have been focusing on me and the kids. Some people don�t believe I have detached but I have been doing a pretty good job detaching for a couple weeks. She came over today to �see� the kids and I just was out in the garage doing some home improvement things. I came into the house and she was just laying in our daughter�s room with no kid around. I went into my room and wrote down all of my assets and debts and gave her the paper. Start of dissolution stuff for me.

Later she was asleep in the spare bedroom when I came back upstairs to do my second workout of the day. She then left and all I said was have fun.

I wrote up more dissolution paperwork today and handed it to her. She said she still needs to look at it. I am just providing the stuff she mentioned in our conversation to her. Showing her I am not getting in the way. I believe she wants to have future conversations like friends would have. I am still doing my avoidance when she is here. She only saw the kids for two hours total today. Maybe a couple hours yesterday too. She mentioned they are just doing their thing and not wanting to hang with her.

I just asked if that meant she was leaving. She said yes and came back to say goodnight. J have been keeping busy doing home improvement projects and doing my workouts. Continuing to focus kn me and the kids. Not letting her moods impact me. I am not her friend or have any relationship with her. I view her as a coparent and nothing more. If she wants to have conversations of life or relationship, that would be reserved when my non negotiable terms are met which are no more OM and no more BFF and we are choosing to work on the MR. if she mentions or talks again about the conversation we just had, j will just be standing firm. Good night all. Best of luck in all of your sitch

Anthony, sounds like you are handling communications quite well. That email she sent, I would just completely disregard it. She is simply throwing you a bone to soften you up during the dissolution negotiations. It is very common for WAS's to do this during S and D to try and get their way. It's far too soon for her to have had a real change of heart. I like Sandi's idea of a very brief response, something like "message received".

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I just told her I got the email and I didn�t know what to say and left it at that.

That's fine, and don't bring it up again. If she does then remind her that she's still pushing to work out dissolution, so you don't think it would be appropriate to discuss reconciling at the same time as working on dissolution (I mean good grief, the irony!)

Anthony, why are you writing up dissolution paperwork? Do you want a D?

I am firm believer that one of the biggest DBing principles is to NOT DO THE DIRTY WORK FOR THE WAS. She was dissolution, then she can do the paperwork and hand it to you.

You working on the paperwork does two things. It lets her off the hook. And it keeps you focused on something you shouldn't be focused on. At all.

And don't fall into the "I am showing her I won't stand in the way by doing the paperwork" trap. There are plenty of ways you can show her that without you doing her dirty work for her.

If you want dissolution, then by all means, be the one to do the work. Otherwise, don't help her leave you.

Just an update. I am continuing my scarcity around her. I know she mentioned being more communicative to her but I am wanting to continue the detaching and not communicating with her unless it is about the children. I am not her gay friend that will just talk to her about anything and everything (emotional). The emotional attachment would be reserved for when we were working on the MR but that can't happen until my conditions are met (1) no more OM, (2) no more BFF, etc.

So she may eventually want to have another "talk" with me and I will just reiterate those points that I understand she wants open communications but for now, our relationship is only co-parenting. Any other relationship does not exist.

I am continuing working out and GAL. Up and downs every once in a while but the workouts assist me in focusing on me and the children. I understand this is a marathon and takes time. However, I am conflicted right now. Part of me just wants to end the marriage since I feel my self worth is worth more than what she has put me through. I also cannot imagine forgiving her for leaving me in a middle of a date with the OM back in mid February. My worth is too much to deal with this and I am adjusting nicely into this new environment with the limited set back.

Since i have an IC appointment today, I will be talking to them about this and knowing when I am done. I know it may be too early but I have had this feeling for a couple weeks with very little conflicting feelings. I love(d) her but it gets to a point where I am better off moving on. Not sure how others go years into this. I am not willing to do this for years. Hell, I am not willing to do this for many more months. I was in love with this woman and she ripped my heart out and stomped on it. I do not know how people are willing or able to go back to that person after all the hateful, hurtful and sickening things they put the other person through. I acknowledge my shortcomings in the marriage. I have done 180s to fix those. However, I don't feel she will change. If that is the case, I am just holding onto the marriage based on old feelings that may never transpire again. So I guess what I am saying is, I don't know if I want to continue being with this woman who was in my life for 17 years. I am giving it some time to decide but that is the feeling i have had for a few weeks.

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So I guess what I am saying is, I don't know if I want to continue being with this woman who was in my life for 17 years. I am giving it some time to decide but that is the feeling i have had for a few weeks.

Don't put pressure on yourself to decide if you want to "continue" being with her. The truth is that you aren't together as man & wife now. You don't want to settle for bosom pals. Time has a way of helping us make decisions. You have made some wonderful improvements......especially not drinking. I think that is marvelous. You may outgrow your W. and discover your feelings do not extend more than caring for her as the mother of your children. On the other hand, the two of you may spend a few years apart and you both heal and find you still love each other.

I don't know if it's the feelings you are trying to let go......or if you are still clinging to hope she'll discover she wants to end her affair and reconcile the MR. I'm glad you know what you would require should that transpire. Realistically, I think she's going to have to be out of the MR and experience life without you. She's got to realize how bad this so-called BFF is for her, and end that relationship once and for all. She's got to figure it out for herself, you can't tell her. I think it is more difficult for women to end their friendships that have that type of influence, than ending their affair. They may give up the OM, but they will choose the BFF over the H. That shows the unhealthy mindset and influence of that whole dynamic. You can't heal her. You can only heal yourself.

Keep growing! ((hugs))

Originally Posted by sandi2

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So I guess what I am saying is, I don't know if I want to continue being with this woman who was in my life for 17 years. I am giving it some time to decide but that is the feeling i have had for a few weeks.

Don't put pressure on yourself to decide if you want to "continue" being with her. The truth is that you aren't together as man & wife now. You don't want to settle for bosom pals. Time has a way of helping us make decisions. You have made some wonderful improvements......especially not drinking. I think that is marvelous. You may outgrow your W. and discover your feelings do not extend more than caring for her as the mother of your children. On the other hand, the two of you may spend a few years apart and you both heal and find you still love each other.

I don't know if it's the feelings you are trying to let go......or if you are still clinging to hope she'll discover she wants to end her affair and reconcile the MR. I'm glad you know what you would require should that transpire. Realistically, I think she's going to have to be out of the MR and experience life without you. She's got to realize how bad this so-called BFF is for her, and end that relationship once and for all. She's got to figure it out for herself, you can't tell her. I think it is more difficult for women to end their friendships that have that type of influence, than ending their affair. They may give up the OM, but they will choose the BFF over the H. That shows the unhealthy mindset and influence of that whole dynamic. You can't heal her. You can only heal yourself.

Keep growing! ((hugs))

A lot of stuff has transpired over the past 24 hours. We had a talk yesterday. She started by accusing my of trying to screw her in the dissolution. And that I didn't want her to have a job, or friends and just be home alone. I got up and said if she was going to accuse me or try to argue with me, I was done. She settled down and I asked why she thought I did not want her to have a job. I told her I was supportive of her staying at home, or getting a job. I was supportive of what she wanted to do. I didn't want to make a decision for her on that front.

I asked about the friends. She said I told her that one of my conditions was to get rid of her friends. I said only one friend. Her BFF. She said that she has realized lately she is not a good person and she is slowly withdrawing from her. She said the OM does not like her and has let her see that she is not a good person especially when she drinks. This just amazes me that she finally realizes it from the OM...just great.

She said it has nothing to do with the OM like she said in the long email. I said it does. She said it doesn't. I told her to not tell me how I feel. The OM has a lot to do with this to me. The leaving me on a date, the open affair, etc. I told her that there is no relationship with him in the picture at all.

I then told her that actions speak louder than words and her walking down the lane the other day with a night bag told me that she spent the night at his house less than 36 hours of telling me she barely talked to him. She said that she knew I knew where she was since I opened the front door and asked her if she wanted to go in the front door instead of the garage. She said she broke it off with him that night physically and they are just friends. (more to come on that).

We talked about the dissolution and I think she realized I was being more than fair on the stuff and we ended the convo on a great note. A really good note of just felt good. She left and said she was going to a friends house at 630pm. One of my daughters loss a tooth and I sent a text to let her know.

This morning she was already laying on the couch when I got downstairs to leave. The motion sensor lights were already off so she was there for a while. I started the car and it was really warm...she is living right across the street so it told me she stayed the night far away since the engine was really warmed up. She admitted after I said something about her staying the night with the guy right after she said they broke it off, etc. She said nothing happen. I told her it isn't the fact that nothing happen. I told her I don't give a crap about the guy. I am tired of the dishonesty. Actions speak louder than words. I let my guard down a little but corrected myself. I told her that if she lied one more time to me on anything, I will go get a dissolution moving ASAP. I rather be told the truth than lied to.

She really doesn't know what she wants but I will be damned if I am lied to. I want to give myself a few months per my IC to make sure this is what I want before pulling the trigger. But the lies will make it far more. I think she may be waking up from the fog a little since she realizes BFF is toxic. I told her that I don't want her to not have friends. I told her I want her to have good friend.

We may talk again tonight as I ended the conversation other than that 100% honesty in the future. We shall see...I am willing to walk away..I can tell I have feelings for her but the lies will make me end it as I do not believe in lying. I think she is still physical with him but claims she isn't...not really care at this point since the staying the night has the appearance of such. I told her again, no relationship exists until OM is out of the picture 100%.

Sandi,

I didn't heed your advice.

We had another discussion that started off bad and I backtracked big time and spoke about us, OM, BFF, everything yesterday morning. We spoke for 3 hours. Neither of us ended up going to work. It was a very emotional discussion on both of us...a lot of tissues were used. It ended up being a really good discussions, as we let out our feelings, discussed everything. No yelling or screaming has occurred since she moved out. She even mentioned that she has noticed some change in me in just talking to her and communicating with her (one of my 180s). After the 3 hour discussion, I told her I was going upstairs (we were in basement), and I just laid down.

I went down to get my son some lunch since he was home sick and then I went and checked on her..spoke for a couple minutes and then went back upstairs to lay down. Still exhausted, depressed, etc from that discussion.

After an hour (she had left to go back to neighbors house), I started my workout to relieve some stress. Knock on the door of my bedroom and it was her. She sat down and said she wants to see if we can work it out between her and I. She said that she became close with the OM and she will have to slowly move away from him by lessening her talks with him.

I told her my condition and she knows she can't move in until it is 100% over with him. She is worried that she will not have feelings for me. She said she felt nothing as we held hands earlier. She then asked me to snuggle with her. I did. We just laid there and just held each other. The first interaction with her like that in over two months. We ended up kissing a little too but I wouldn't let or try to go any further. I am still guarded.

I don't know what she means by feelings but if she is comparing 17 years of being with someone to a new puppy love stage of a guy she just met, the feelings are totally different in my opinion. Luckily i Have an IC appointment today to talk a lot of this out. I would love to hear your opinion. I know she is still looking at apartments for 6 month because i told her we need to take it really really slow. Become friends first, before husband and wife again. I told her we need to crawl before we walk. So maybe that is why she is considering an apartment to still give it time since i said I want to take it extremely slow. I am not sure. I am lost. I am going to try and do what i have been doing of detaching and focusing on me. This is emotionally exhausting.

I don't know if it was a tactic or not...so I am unsure...

Hey man, that was a huge temp check. She wanted to know where you were. Now expect more waywardness. You know, DB has some strict rules to follow. You are free to follow them or not. But everytime you fall into ww world rules you reset your advantage points. I was a ww some time ago. So let me tell you the feeling W has for OM has no grade of comparison with the ones she has for you and the MR. I�m sorry to say this. Feelings are subjetive. They don�t depend on the past history, the amount of time or any other background. They are related with W mind so you can add there some addictions, limerence, selfishness and whatever is doing short circuit inside W�s head.

You need to keep getting into amoafwl. Keep detaching. She�s not there, she�s not on board your boat. She has to see that. You show her you are sailing out of the harbour (yes, I work with water...). There�s no way to move slowly away from OM, be aware of that. It�s black or white there, no greys allowed.

As you said, focus on yourself, detach, GAL. Be there for the kids, your first commitment now. Set her free and free yourself from her. Avoid MR talks, it�s nonsense now. She knows YOUR boundaries, right? You need to regain respect. Respect!

Be strong there Anthony, keep DB, keep moving forward. No expectations

Respect!

I had an old reliable car that I loved but got bored with . We had some great adventures together but it felt boring after a few years . I had a peek at the car showrooms and they had nice bright shiny fast exciting ones . I drove home and looked at my car , saw it was worn , had an annoying clink from the exhaust once in a while and was generally not what I wanted .
After discussing it with friends I was swayed to sell my car to my friend and finance a new sporty car . Things went great for a while , but after the initial rush of owning a new car wore off I began to compare the two . I started to miss that exhaust clink believe it or not . I dropped by my friends and saw he had reupholstered the interior, got it all clean and fixed up and smelling nice .

All I could think of now was if I could have a little drive again just to see how I felt now ......

Tryhard. That is a great analogy.

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A lot of stuff has transpired over the past 24 hours. We had a talk yesterday. She started by accusing my of trying to screw her in the dissolution. And that I didn't want her to have a job, or friends and just be home alone. I got up and said if she was going to accuse me or try to argue with me, I was done. She settled down and I asked why she thought I did not want her to have a job. I told her I was supportive of her staying at home, or getting a job. I was supportive of what she wanted to do. I didn't want to make a decision for her on that front.

It's common to read how the WW expresses concern that her LBH will screw her when legal action begins. I think it's a classical case of projection. BTW, good job at shutting her down when she started that old behavior pattern of accusations.

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I asked about the friends. She said I told her that one of my conditions was to get rid of her friends. I said only one friend. Her BFF. She said that she has realized lately she is not a good person and she is slowly withdrawing from her. She said the OM does not like her and has let her see that she is not a good person especially when she drinks. This just amazes me that she finally realizes it from the OM...just great.

Ironic, isn't it? She'll listen to most anyone but her H. That's true to WW form. In the past, didn't she agree that BFF wasn't good, but that's what she liked about her......and felt she (your W) could be herself around her without being judged? Well, believe nothing she says at this point.

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She said it has nothing to do with the OM like she said in the long email. I said it does. She said it doesn't. I told her to not tell me how I feel. The OM has a lot to do with this to me. The leaving me on a date, the open affair, etc. I told her that there is no relationship with him in the picture at all.

Waywardness is the problem. It started with a wayward mindset and now it's led to the physical. The deeper she gets into a wayward lifestyle..... the more complex the problem becomes. Whatever she engages in (booze, drugs, men, GGW behavior, off the wall "spiritualism", experiments, etc.) the more she'll have to deal with once she decides to turn around. I know it is very hard for H's to believe the OM is not the problem. An affair is certainly a problem for the MR. IMHO, the real issues started a long time ago. And those are the issues your WW still thinks about and blames for the problems in the M. She does not see OM as the problem. She separates the problems in the M from her OM.

When she reached the stage of rebellion, she was hanging out with BFF, and it soon led to OM......which added to the problem. But whether or not she can see it that way......IDK. B/c she was done with the M by that point, and it's like thinking of the M as then, and BFF & OM as now. That way, she keeps you and the M problems in a separate category from her new single lifestyle. It's really hard to explain. I try to caution LBH's that if the WW breaks up with her current affair partner, she's likely to find a replacement. B/c she is after the thrill. So, I understand how she sees that OM is not the real problem. I'm not saying you should be okay with her having an A with OM, but you are focused on the guy. Ending her A and friendship with BFF is the first step, but it won't solve the problems that existed before they entered into your lives. As long as she is acting out in rebellion, other men may come and go....b/c she wants to feel the thrill. I'm not suggesting you should be fine with any of it. I'm just trying to explain her weirdness.

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She said she broke it off with him that night physically and they are just friends.

Riiiiight.

Can't be "friends" with ex-affair partners.

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After an hour (she had left to go back to neighbors house), I started my workout to relieve some stress. Knock on the door of my bedroom and it was her. She sat down and said she wants to see if we can work it out between her and I. She said that she became close with the OM and she will have to slowly move away from him by lessening her talks with him.

Yeah, well she can't slowly pull away from him. That doesn't work. It has to end quick and final. This woman just wants to have you as her backup, without giving up OM. I don't think she'll want to give up her wayward lifestyle......whatever all of that includes.

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I told her my condition and she knows she can't move in until it is 100% over with him. She is worried that she will not have feelings for me. She said she felt nothing as we held hands earlier. She then asked me to snuggle with her. I did. We just laid there and just held each other. The first interaction with her like that in over two months. We ended up kissing a little too but I wouldn't let or try to go any further. I am still guarded.

Remember when you laughed at my statement to not be surprised if she tries to initiate sex? Well, this is a prime example of how that happens. Guess who gets their hopes up and then gets hurt again?

As far as her not feeling anything when you held hands, or whatever.........she can't expect to feel butterflies with you when she has OM in her head. A woman does not feel desire for two men at the same time. She may sleep with more than one, but she'll only desire one man at a time. Currently, her lust for sex outside the MR, selfishness and rebellion are playing havoc with any normal feelings she might experience otherwise whenever touching her H. Notice that your WW was concerned about whether or not she could feel anything from snuggling & kissing with you. It was all about "her", not you or how you might feel. The WW is arrogant and she never stops to think that her H might not want her. Your WW was not wondering if you felt any special feelings for her while she was kissing you. She was to centered on herself.

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I don't know what she means by feelings but if she is comparing 17 years of being with someone to a new puppy love stage of a guy she just met, the feelings are totally different in my opinion. Luckily i Have an IC appointment today to talk a lot of this out. I would love to hear your opinion. I know she is still looking at apartments for 6 month because i told her we need to take it really really slow. Become friends first, before husband and wife again. I told her we need to crawl before we walk. So maybe that is why she is considering an apartment to still give it time since i said I want to take it extremely slow. I am not sure. I am lost. I am going to try and do what i have been doing of detaching and focusing on me. This is emotionally exhausting.

She was checking to see if there was some romantic emotions when she held your hand. That's all. Remember she acts out of emotions, and she was seeing if she felt any sparks from touching your hand. Same thing when she asked you to snuggle with her. She's testing to see if she feels any desirable/loving feelings. That's another reason she may try to have sex with you. She wants to see if anything is stirred within her.

If a couple were affectionate and had a good sex life before the WW started an A, then I believe there is high probability it will resume once the couple reconciles and she gets the OM out of her head. However, the LBH needs to understand that she needs time for her emotions to adjust. When she ends the affair, goes completely NC with the OM, she'll actually go through a period of withdrawal symptoms. If she was bar hoping every night, or some other activity, to suddenly stop and stay home with her family......may feel depressing, IDK. I didn't go out drinking or anything of that nature, but I certainly had withdrawal symptoms when I ended my A and went NC. My biggest fear of committing to my MR was that loving feelings for my H would not return and I would feel dead for the rest of my life. It took me a while, b/c I had inner work to do on myself. Once I got the OM out of my head and stopped fantasizing about him or any other person......I was able to feel true remorse, and my loving feelings for my H returned.

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I don't know if it was a tactic or not...so I am unsure...

I wouldn't put much stock in it. Sorry, but she gave no indication of a woman who wants to work to save her M. I don't know what all you may have told her, but what you posted sounded okay. Not sure how it was ended, like if the two of you are suppose to be working toward getting back together. I don't know what you told her you would require, other than the part about OM and BFF. There has to be more than that. It would be a great start, if she would end all contact with OM and BFF forever.......but the two of you had serious issues before they every came into the picture.

For whatever reason, she needed to secure her backup plan......and I think that's all it was. ((hugs)) She's going to have to get a lot more serious about doing whatever it takes to save her M. As long as she's saying things about slowly letting OM go, and being friends with him.......she's not ready. Even if she claims to break up with him, I don't think she'd last no time before she'd be back out there playing the single life. You can't take her back too easily, or it won't last. You have to make her work to get you back. She doesn't even see it as if she's getting you back. She thinks it's all up to whether or not she wants to go back home, and thinks you'll be tickled pink to get her. Am I making sense? You've got to be harder to get. Don't buy into her b.s. about slowly detaching from OM. Don't let her come back on those type of terms. .

Wow neffer. Thanks for that.

Even if it was replied specifically here, you gave me the answer I needed to hear today.

Originally Posted by Tryhard

I had an old reliable car that I loved but got bored with . We had some great adventures together but it felt boring after a few years . I had a peek at the car showrooms and they had nice bright shiny fast exciting ones . I drove home and looked at my car , saw it was worn , had an annoying clink from the exhaust once in a while and was generally not what I wanted .
After discussing it with friends I was swayed to sell my car to my friend and finance a new sporty car . Things went great for a while , but after the initial rush of owning a new car wore off I began to compare the two . I started to miss that exhaust clink believe it or not . I dropped by my friends and saw he had reupholstered the interior, got it all clean and fixed up and smelling nice .

All I could think of now was if I could have a little drive again just to see how I felt now ......

Hahaha! My old car was always a place of comfort for me. Always there, always reliable, welcoming, warm. Then without warning I couldn't even hardly get the door open. I would try and try but even if the door opened it was cold and clammy inside and still wouldn't start. But crazily enough, others would get in and she would start right up and rev her engine for them! Finally I asked myself "why am I doing this to myself when I could have a shiny new car that starts for me every time?" I liked that old car but zipping down the highway at crazy speeds in my shiny new one sure beats what the old one put me through at the end

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Remember when you laughed at my statement to not be surprised if she tries to initiate sex? Well, this is a prime example of how that happens. Guess who gets their hopes up and then gets hurt again?

As far as her not feeling anything when you held hands, or whatever.........she can't expect to feel butterflies with you when she has OM in her head. A woman does not feel desire for two men at the same time. She may sleep with more than one, but she'll only desire one man at a time. Currently, her lust for sex outside the MR, selfishness and rebellion are playing havoc with any normal feelings she might experience otherwise whenever touching her H. Notice that your WW was concerned about whether or not she could feel anything from snuggling & kissing with you. It was all about "her", not you or how you might feel. The WW is arrogant and she never stops to think that her H might not want her. Your WW was not wondering if you felt any special feelings for her while she was kissing you. She was to centered on herself.

So she came and talked to me last night. She said she felt nothing at all when we snuggled, or kissed. She also said that it has nothing to do with the OM. She said that she isn't a typical person and can separate him from me. WTF? I told her that there is no way she could have feelings for two people at the same time. She has said that she wanted to hug me in the past and resisted. But when we just held each other, she felt nothing. Nothing at all. She claimed that for the first hour, she didn't think of the OM at all. This is a joke. She can't separate the two. But that is for her to find out.

I am going to tell her if she wants to have any more relationship discussions that there will be none unless my conditions are met. I am not going to let my guard down. She has feelings for him still. That tells me that she is not just "friends" with him.

Oh well, fell off the horse. I need to climb back up on it and keep DBing. I messed up and was vulnerable. One step forwards, five steps backwards.

Sandi, based on how everything was going, snuggling, kissing, sex were not even foreseeable and then she just went for the kill. You are so dead on in your thoughts that it amazes me. I need your phone number to walk me through this! you are a wealth of knowledge. My BIL has been a wealth of knowledge and echoes a lot of what you say. It is just amazing how predictable these WW become. I had to laugh when she said she was not like a typical female and she can do this and that. The reason I laughed was because she is following the script that you are predicting. What should I be ready for next? LOL

Originally Posted by sandi2

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She was checking to see if there was some romantic emotions when she held your hand. That's all. Remember she acts out of emotions, and she was seeing if she felt any sparks from touching your hand. Same thing when she asked you to snuggle with her. She's testing to see if she feels any desirable/loving feelings. That's another reason she may try to have sex with you. She wants to see if anything is stirred within her.

This part stands out to me. I have always said, based off of what I've learned, that feelings can deceive and manipulate your heart, because they change sometimes by the hour. because women are emotional and guided by their feelings, they can easily be manipulated, especially by a PUA or OM. Men test their actions out on women to see if the feelings are not only reciprocated, but experienced. Hence limerace phase.

Although their are vastly different opinions on this in regard to feelings and being deceived, especially in love and limerace, short term vs. long term, different sexes opinions, etc. I want to know which one, and who's right? Is love a feeling? Is love an action? Is love a choice? If it truly was a commitment, most of us wouldn't be here, would we?

The reason why I bring this up is because I've been reading a lot about conditional love vs. unconditional love lately. Worldly love vs. Godly love. Romantic love, which has its Shakesperian origins from the 1600's Europe vs. Practical love, and healthy sound decisions. Can anyone agreed that love has been over romanticized in the past 100 years by Hollywood, on what it should be?

So I have been picking up the pieces since Tuesday's discussion and actions with the W. We spoke again on Friday for a few hours and pretty much I was emotional. It was definitely against the dos and don'ts on the page here. She spoke to me about us, about the OM, etc which was not where I wanted to be.

So I had a camp out with my son that night through Saturday evening. I was away from her where these other father/son things are taking place. All the dads usually just drink themselves silly and the boys go and play. It was the first camp out that I went to where I was not drinking. It was awkward being the only dad just sober and not acting like a idiot. Anyways, most of the dads were pretty cool about not giving me a hard time about not drinking. It went well and I had some time to reflect while I was there.

I got back Saturday evening and the W came to me and said there was a show tonight, actually two shows (her OM is trying to do stand up comedy I guess). She said she was going to go but not spend the night there. She said that I wanted her to be honest with me. I asked her to talk and we went up to my bedroom.

I told her that I appreciate her being honest with me and then I paused. She said, "but..."

I told her that I had some time to reflect on things while I was away. I told her that we have no relationship right now other than being coparents. I will discuss anything with her that is about the children. If it doesn't have to do with the children then I will no longer being discussing those things with her. I told her that I don't want to talk her about the OM, her job, her day, etc. I told her she knows my condition(s).

She asked me about the apartment. (she has been sending me potential apartments she is looking at). I told her that I have already told her what I would be willing to do for the apartment (and it doesn't require anymore discussions). If she has questions or concerns about the apartment, she needs to talk to someone other than me about it.

I then told her that while she is on her journey to figure out what she wants, I will be taking my own journey. I need to work on myself and figure out if I want to continue this relationship in the future.

I ended the conversation with her after saying that and she promptly left for the evening (like right after the discussion). She seemed upset or at least startled. I did this conversation to grab some of the control back as she got all the control back from me when I snuggled and kissed her. I really needed it do this for me.

I hope I handled everything right in your eyes, Sandi. I am trying to gain back my self-respect and not be considered the gay friend or being friend zoned. I know she liked the communications between us and said she has noticed a major change in how I am communicating better and showing my feelings and emotions better.

This does feel counter-intuitive to eventually getting her to come back as I pull further away right after pulling away and then us talking more and such and then now doing it again. I guess I have to trust the process. She seems upset with me (just how she was acting on Sunday and then this morning). I was talking to my BIL and I told him that I don't act really cold around her but I act like she isn't there (if that makes sense). I try to ignore her as much as possible. He said that is ok because she is openly having an affair. It would be different if she was looking for space to work on herself but since she is openly having an affair, the dynamic is different. If it was just space to work on herself, then you could detach but still be pleasant, etc.

Now he didn't say be mean to her which I am not. I told him that if she says something to me like have a nice day or something like that, I would respond in kind. However, I will not tell her to have a nice day first or do something out of the ordinary to start a conversation first.

So that is the update. I am trying to let her go.

Biggest mistake was in having these conversations.

Her: "Can we talk?"
You: "Has anything changed?"
Her: "Not really."
You: "In that case there is nothing new to be said."

If she tricks you by answering "Yes, something has changed." Then end the conversation as quickly as you can, with "I am sorry, I am not understanding that anything has changed. I've already said what I have to say. Sorry but I am busy, I need to take care of some things."

Do this friendly. Without even a HINT of anger or frustration. I get the impression that you continue to engage her with frustration and anger. Maybe you aren't but reading your update it feels that way. Your goal is to remain stoic. Show no emotion. You aren't happy about the things discussed but neither are you upset. I know that scares you because she has complained about your lack of showing emotion, but she is in an open affair. So so what. If and when she commits back then you can show her ho wonderful you've become with expressing emotion. Not until.

As far as her being upset. SO WHAT! Again, this should not affect you. Stoic. Again, that doesn't mean angry or frustration. Or being unkind. But you are like a rock. She kicks you emotionally you don't even move. The goal here is to show her she no longer has control of your reactions and emotions. And she WILL test that.

I like your response on the apartments. Now stick to it.

Anthony, that all sounds fine. I definitely agree with Steve on just not having R talks to begin with though. And also on sticking to it, on EVERYTHING you said to her. As Sandi points out all the time, every time you establish a boundary with a WW, she will test it to see if it means anything. If you fail the test you lose even more respect. So you have got to enforce your boundaries.

I always cringe a little when people say "gay friend" in the context of a sexless marriage. We do have people here in same-sex couples going through all the same terrible things as everyone else, and that term is derogatory, so please be sensitive to that.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Anthony, that all sounds fine. I definitely agree with Steve on just not having R talks to begin with though. And also on sticking to it, on EVERYTHING you said to her. As Sandi points out all the time, every time you establish a boundary with a WW, she will test it to see if it means anything. If you fail the test you lose even more respect. So you have got to enforce your boundaries.

I always cringe a little when people say "gay friend" in the context of a sexless marriage. We do have people here in same-sex couples going through all the same terrible things as everyone else, and that term is derogatory, so please be sensitive to that.

Point taken. I did not mean it in that context. I will not be "friend zoned" by my W would be a better explanation.

Not much to update. She has reached out to me on text a few times on things but they are mostly children related and I respond as needed with as little words as possible. Detaching is back in full throttle mode. Doing my exercises and workouts.

Just me doing my thing. Taking care of the children, playing basketball. I will be going out of town next weekend. Colored Easter eggs with the kiddos yesterday. GAL is in full tilt.

Fell off the horse earlier, dusted off and back on it.

Good job Anthony, keep it up! Drop all expectations and just keep being the awesome you that you are :-)

She filed for divorce supposedly last week. I should receive the papers sometime this week. I am okay with this. GAL has helped me learn there is life after this. I have moved on. I do not plan on trying to save this marriage at all. I am focusing on myself and the kids and have been happy. My kids seems happier.

To those you have been hurt or going through this. Please know, things will improve. You will get through this. It may not feel like it now but God has a plan for you. GAL and detach. As much as I care or cared for her, I can't control how she has or does now feel. I respect her decision and have moved on. There is light at the end of the tunnel. Keep faith. Maybe it will work for you (saving your marriage). I have realized that I will be fine without the W.

If she has a change of heart, right now, I have no desire to get back into the relationship. I spoke to my attorney and am awaiting paperwork. I want it processed as soon as possible to move on.

Good luck with everyone and their sitch. Also, thanks for the support of the DB/DR community. I appreciate the help and wisdom. I have enjoyed the readings and continue to work on myself and improve as a person.

Much love and good luck. I will provide updates as needed.

Our best wishes for you and your kids A. Keep moving forward. Getting into amoafwl. You are showing your children how to be a healthy parent. Keep doing that man!

Continue to focus on the positives of everything, you will be a better person when it's done. And don't give up on your personal growth just because she is filing for D. Use it as fuel! Good luck Anthony.

Just keep working on yourself. My D is oending the judges signature and thats the end of my M for good. I am in the dame boat. Zero desire to R with my WW. So much better off without her. We deserve so much better. God speed brother.

How did you get your D done so fast? They are saying 12 months for me. She moved back in the house over the weekend. I assume that was her A telling her to do that. Not sure if she will move back out after I get served the papers this week. Not really sure but I have retained my A to prep for it.

Very few states offer quickie Ds when kids are involved. My WW thought we'd do a quickie online D, then she looked into it and in our state it was arduous because we have a child. But even without a child the fastest was 6 months. No less than a year when children were in the picture, and most places said plan on 18 months to 2 years.

Originally Posted by AnthonyA

How did you get your D done so fast? They are saying 12 months for me. She moved back in the house over the weekend. I assume that was her A telling her to do that. Not sure if she will move back out after I get served the papers this week. Not really sure but I have retained my A to prep for it.

My WW had her lawyer draft up the paperwork on the terms we agreed on. We both signed it and notarized it and her L filed it for both of us. No serving needed. Just awaiting the court to issue final dissolution of M. I cant wait.

so you were able to go the dissolution route? I was going to go that route but she wanted me to keep an animal that I am not willing to keep (A told me animals are considered personal property so she can't make me keep the animal). Also, because she wanted to keep her part time job, she wanted more spousal support and more years of it to continue to work part time so she can have summers off and not have to put the kids in day care. I told her that I will nto pay her extra money and time to keep the job and if my kids have to go to an after school program or summer care for a few weeks, they will be fine. So she decided to file for divorce.

I got served papers last Thursday. I went to A today and counterclaimed divorce. She has moved back in. She is paranoid that I am trying to screw her over in money, etc. I wished her a Happy Mother's Day on Sunday and was called an a-hole. I guess she didn't think I really meant it. She is still the mother of my children and will care for her in that respect. She is definitely not the woman I married. She is telling everyone, everything is my fault. I accept my blame in this. I continue to read my self help books. Reading another. GAL. Focus on children. She has told my children things about me. I continue to not say anything mean about her to the kids. As the kids should not be involved. It hurts that she is saying things to them. She has been snooping in my bed room and phone records. She is in spare bedroom. This D is gonna get messy, I have a feeling. I hope she calms down and realizes I am not trying to screw her over or anything. We shall see how this turns out.

Just providing an update...divorce is still going on...we were being nice to each other for about a week and a half. It started with a 3 or 4 hour conversation where later that night she texted me saying her boyfriend thinks her and I did something.

I told her that he better get used to me and her talking since we have three children together. Then all of a sudden this past Sunday, she decided that she did not like the agreement we had and became hateful to me. So we are "feuding" which means she is mad at me and I am just ignoring her. I continue to workout everyday. Doing my thing.

Originally Posted by AnthonyA

Just providing an update...divorce is still going on...we were being nice to each other for about a week and a half. It started with a 3 or 4 hour conversation where later that night she texted me saying her boyfriend thinks her and I did something.

I told her that he better get used to me and her talking since we have three children together. Then all of a sudden this past Sunday, she decided that she did not like the agreement we had and became hateful to me. So we are "feuding" which means she is mad at me and I am just ignoring her. I continue to workout everyday. Doing my thing.

Always try to take the high road. You will be much more at peace with yourself later on down the line.

Anthony,

Glad to hear from you. I was just thinking about you the other day. Are you working on your issues? Any reading, studying, IC? Hope things are improving.