piecing or cake eating thread 2 - DivorceBusting.com

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This is my new thread. My old thread is here:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2838856#Post2838856

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

Very very very rarely. He seems to see it as demeaning to apologise. If I was to wait until he actually turned up at my front door showing remorse and promising to do anything in his power to save the marriage, then I'd wait until I was dead. It is just not going to happen. And I need to work on (and I do address this in my IC) knowing this is about who he is and how impossible it is for someone as shame-driven as him to be so vulnerable, rather than about me and my worthiness and how important I am to him.

I am just so sad and afraid. I'm sad about having less time with youngest, and I am sad he won't be in the house if eldest is here. I'm sad. I am going through a really really hard time at work myself right now, and I just want a hug and someone to put the thought into how to care for and support me that I am putting into how to care for him.

I still have worries about the EA. We have spoken about it a fair bit, and I am as sure as I can be that it wasn't a PA (I discovered it and he blocked all contact with her - which was mainly electronic via text and email - though they did have several work lunches together) and I am sure as I can be that he is no longer in touch with her. Apparently she'd started to ignore his messages shortly before I found out. I believe that he isn't seeing her or messaging her right now - he seems to just work and sleep and little else - though he's lied to me before.

What goes around in my head is how he pursued her. Initiated lots of contact (from looking at their texts he always seemed more keen than she did), told her jokes, tried to impress her, told her he couldn't wait to see her again, told her she was a lovely person, etc etc. My heart has been aching to receive that from him for such a long time. And it still is. He does understand this - I was very clear with him at the time. And he was clear enough about what was happening for him - that he felt his role in the relationship was to manage my negative emotions, that it was a tireless and thankless task, that he didn't feel close to me, he just felt scared of my reactions to things, and he wanted something or someone for himself. I guess part of what is bringing this to my mind today is how hard I've tried this past week to show interest in his work, to encourage him, to give him moral support - all of that - and how vulnerable and hurt and just sad it makes me feel that he just doesn't feel that way about me. And that he's content enough to ask for things from me, but there's just nothing in his heart - nothing in him that thinks, 'my wife must be so sad and scared and hurt right now. How can I encourage her?' - and that just hurts me. it really does. This is so hard.

I don't know what to do with myself tonight really. I was okay earlier but now I'm just feeling so low and sad and bereft.

Well, what he did looked like an apology to me, maybe you need to redefine what an apology from him looks like? And you're right, that's about him and not you. Though people can change.
Here, have a virtual hug, I know how hard that is to need a hug and not have the person you think should be there for you in your darkest time to give it to you. It gets easier, and you drag yourself out of victim mode a little more each week I promise.

The EA: it's not something you can control, and it's a symptom of what's going on inside him, not a reflection of reality. It's a fantasy, if must have felt like a big thrill and a big game to him, but it's not anything except a sign to what he felt he was missing out on. You are doing brilliantly with supporting him right now, and I know how hard it is to feel he's not reciprocating, but right now he's not really able to focus on your needs. Keep meeting his needs, and hopefully eventually he'll be able to meet yours. And deep down he knows how much he hurt you, but he can't face that right now. He's confused about how he feels about you, but don't assume he doesn't care for you, none of his behaviour right now indicates that. You said that he dislikes you earlier I think? I guarantee that's not true, you wouldn't ask for someone you dislike to text you or to go on a date. The anger and horrible things he said, that's him blaming anyone but himself for his problems, it's not you. But yes, it is so hard. This is the hardest thing I have EVER been through, but it does get easier over time as you get stronger.

I hope you feel better today xx

Did you look up narcissist? I didn't want to throw terms like that around as we tend to get stuck on labels, but like AS, it was my first thought on reading your sitch and again on reading the above. The inability to apologies, the pursuit of the EA, the bullying and the childishness.

I respect your decision to stand by him and I think you should read up on the above. It takes more than unconditional love to fix a narcissist.

Yes, I did look it up.

He's not a narcissist, but my father definitely was and I think I tend to see the worst possible spin on his motivations and behaviour because of that.

Or he is a narcissist, and I don't trust my own judgement because my father did a number on me and I can only find that type of man attractive and I need more IC.

I don't know. I am trying to know and be safe and calm but I just don't know.

It's OK. It is difficult to see the truth of it when you are right in the middle and you are right, he might not be.

I've been avoiding spending too much time here so I haven't kept up with your thread. I can see you want it to work though. But it worries me that it is all one way. His feelings. His hurt. His needs. If he were a narcissist, then right now, he has everything he wants and things will never change. Have you thought about taking some time out for you. A weekend away somewhere on your own - get some distance, or perhaps start a hobby which has nothing to do with the two of you. Something just for you?

This wouldn't be about being with him, or not being with him, this would be about finding a way to heal you.

Thank you Flying Solo.

I have been totally honest with IC and family therapist about my behaviour - which has not always been reasonable or acceptable - and his too. She didn't think he was unsuitable for counselling if he wanted it, though that would be up to him - and I know she doesn't do family counseling where there is entrenched patterns of abuse.

I also know I am emotionally reactive and that has had a really bad effect on him - it is a relic from my past and not my fault, but my responsibility to heal.

I do want to heal. I can't get away for weekends at the moment due to childcare, but I am doing the following things:

IC
getting out of the house and getting exercise every day
visiting friends and letting them know about my feelings without spending hours bad mouthing H - keeping the focus on me and them and not him
finding someone to help or show kindness to every day
spiritual practice - spending time in prayer and developing in that way
food and nutrition - I lost a lot of weight in the first month. I am being really careful about meals and I've stopped smoking as that was affecting my health and my appetite.
planning kid-friendly GAL activities every weekend.
getting information about a retreat I want to go on when things settle a little and I can get childcare
setting up family therapist for myself and kids and possibly H (but definitely myself and kids to help me support them)

if you can think of anything else I can add to this list to keep the focus on me and help me heal I would love suggestions.

I know it's tough. I realized that over the years I had isolated myself. Unintentional. Life with kids does that and before you know it the phone stops ringing and the invites cease. You can't even pinpoint when it happened. It just does.

You sound like you're doing the right things though.

There is a web site called Meet Up. It's not what it sounds like. It is more for people looking to find other people with similar interests. There is something on there for everyone, whether it be a running group, or a walking group. You could try a book club or a film society. Something with a focus. It will also remind you that you are more than a mother and more than a wife. You are someone with opinions and ideas who matters.

If/when you are able to get a few days away then look into a group called FlashPack. I am planning a weekend canoeing in Scotland in May. I am still standing by my marriage but I am not going to stop living whilst I wait for him to sort his [censored] out.

Re the weight. That happens to most of us. It is the flight or fight response not having anywhere to go. We can't fight and we can't flee so the adrenalin has no-where to go. We are stuck. You can't eat when your body is on an adrenalin high. I lost 20% of my body weight in 2 weeks. I didn't even realise I had stopped eating. It gave me a good base to start my fitness kick from. I had to avoid cardio - I didn't have any weight left to lose, but focused instead on yoga and pilates. I have never been in better shape. Silver lining.

I second the Meetup thing, there are so many things on to suit every interest, the event I went to a few weeks ago I found out about through there. It's really nice to have something completely separate from family and the rest of your life. I also wonder if you're religious whether getting involved more in church stuff (assuming it's church, could be mosque/synagogue/whatever) would be a good route to meet more people and develop your network further?

Stopping smoking is a great thing to do, well done!

Thanks for these suggestions.

yes - meetup is good. I might join a walking group. We are getting a dog soon (this has been planned for ages and I decided to go ahead despite the separation - I think I need it and the kids need it and it will be fun and something new we can enjoy without H) and there is a dog walking group so I have made a note of that.

Getting out in the evenings is really tricky right now. I have two weeks until I finish a big work project of my own, then I will be much freer. There is one daytime and a few evening meetings of the church I go to - so I will get more involved in that and I try to be in touch with people who are members for phone calls and visits and stuff - and that's really important to me. I'd like to do that more.

And yes - I am a pretty small person to begin with and I think I lost over a stone in a fortnight. People commented at work and were worried about me. I swapped food for coffee and nictotine but that's stopped now and I am making a lot of efforts with my meals and nutrition. Have also been baking, and I enjoy that very much.

I guess it's just 100% focus on my self care and one foot in front of the other until work quietens down at the end of this month and I can get some space to breathe. I really want to use that time to be outside, listen to podcasts while walking, play with the new dog, have coffee dates with friends, etc. I am actually looking forward to it, and I don't need H to do any of those things, but they aren't things that will sour or risk the possibility of R - if I end up wanting that - either - so like you say, Flying Solo, they are good things to concentrate on while I am uncertain.

Send encouraging message today and got cordial reply. I asked for goodnight texts when I saw him at the weekend.

All of that sounds great . The goodnight texts , are they for you or the kids ? I feel that if it is for you it is extra pressure on him . I know it�s not fair but it�s where we are . Stay strong.

Yes, for me. I asked for them and he said yes. We'll see. I think you might be right about extra pressure - he is so fragile and erratic right now - but he's also asking for me to support him and wait for him and I don't feel okay about doing that without seeing he is at least making some tiny effort to keep connected with me in any small way he can. I get your point though. I guess we will just see how it shakes out this week. I won't see him until Wednesday when I am working late and he is in the house taking care of the kids - he will be with eldest and that's a trigger point for conflict and my anxiety, but it is an improvement that he offered and responded well when I asked him to be gentle with him. Again, we'll see.

Encourage good behaviour, correct bad behaviour, but do it how the vets advise , maybe ask them?

Sure - I'm taking any and all suggestions and am erratic myself at the moment so just working on keeping myself on as even a keel as I can. I had a hard start to this morning - very upset - but got myself back to myself and had a nice afternoon. Thanks for checking in.

Wishing you a more gentle ride on the emotional rollercoaster today

Those are both positive signals from him, I hope Wednesday goes well...

Things are okay today. I got my goodnight message and sent a supportive text today.

I think we're both pretty bruised after the Friday date. I guess I had lots of hopes. I know he was disappointed that I got upset - it's a regular complaint of his - that he wants to tell me something is wrong or withdraw to take care of himself, and I get so reactive and emotional he's got to take care of me, whether he wants to or not, and that takes away his choices. I see he wants to see me doing a lot more self care and being more emotionally independent, and I want to see him wanting to get close to me because he wants to, and not just to pacify me.

I don't really agree with his view on things - but then again, it is his view and that matters. I think the GAL stuff I have planned with work for me no matter what happens. As Flying Solo said, I need to heal and he can't do it for me.

Be kind to yourself, I made a lot of mistakes during those early dates and I still sometimes get very emotional and dh has a hard time dealing with that. But in a way you can't help it, these are big scary life happenings and you will get upset and emotional and take things the wrong way and over-react. You're human. And he might too, though men seem to have different ways of being over-emotional which seem harder to spot. Dh seems to go blank faced for example. I've found that breathing techniques can help to calm me down, the other day when I was going to meet dh at the pub I did a 4 5 8 breathing which seemed to help (breathe in for 4, hold for 5, out for 8). There are other means of calming down. Maybe even saying to your husband 'I'm sorry, I'm all upset, give me 5 minutes to calm down' might be useful?

I think that dh and I have both got better at repairing things over time, and I think that's even more important than who gets upset and when. Getting upset disturbs the safety of your relationship, but conflict is inevitable so better to learn how to deal with it going forward than to think it won't happen. Like the way I got upset on Saturday because I felt rejected that dh was only staying for an hour. He didn't really repair but I kind of did clumsily and then afterwards I worked out why I got upset and what he could do to help in future and then told him. Other times the best repair he can make is to give me a hug and I ask for that. I'm not sure yet how I repair, I think I explicitly try to put the argument aside and make peace, there are probably other methods I can learn. I have definitely got less extreme in my emotional reactions over the last 6 months, but I think part of that is feeling that it's less likely that dh will leave for good, so that is a real chicken and egg situation. If you think there's a chance your husband is going to walk away forever then that is by nature a hugely threatening situation and bound to threaten your sense of safety and induce huge fear. Feeling like it's less likely allows you more room to not panic, to breathe, to be a bit calmer and therefore to react less out of pure emotion.

I do think you need to take the pressure out of any future dates, face to face in a restaurant is the worst method. Walking has been really good for us, we've always walked together anyway but a walk is just a walk, and being side by side encourages more ease and means less pressure, plus you can be silent if you're feeling upset or unsure. If walking isn't to your taste then going for a drive can be good too. But I'm sure you two have your 'thing' that you did when you first got together or that you've done together over the years, try to work that out or even find something new. Is there something both of you have always wanted to do?

Thanks for your understanding, Dilly.

I do think I need to get better at managing my emotions. I also think I did pretty well listening to him tell me how angry he was with me for an hour, and he really didn't like it when I tried to set a boundary and end that part of the conversation. I cried because I was upset, and it would been better, I think, for me to just have said something like, 'you don't look like you're in the mood to have a date night tonight, let's try again another time' but you live and learn.

Cordial messages today. I sent encouragement, he was nice. He also texted me this evening to let me know he was out playing football and I shouldn't think he was ignoring me if I texted again and he didn't respond. It's good to see that he is getting out and taking care of himself (this is very new - him being social and exercising) and also being considerate of how I might feel. I just said I hoped he had a good time and I was pleased he was taking time for himself in the midst of his work project.

I am tired. But it's been a good day. Had IC this morning and talked about the ways his anger trigger either placating or defensive responses in me, and how much of that is to do with how and how much of it is to do with my past. I still am not sure about that, though I am working to heal my past and I am pretty sure I don't want an R where he is stuck in expressing anger rather than wanting to move on to make a repair. I am not making a decision, but I feel a bit clearer. I am a little anxious about how things might pan out tomorrow though I do need rest and that's more important than mulling that over tonight.

I think if it comes to another date - and neither of us has suggested that - then I might suggest a walk. We're getting a dog soon and I will be taking lots of walks. It is GAL for me but it might also be a low pressure way to spend a finite amount of time together without pressure. I suspect a silence will feel more companiable and less stony than if we were staring at each other across a dining table too.

I think it gets easier to manage your emotions as time passes, I cringe when I think of some of the times I completely lost it in the early months and also over Christmas, not just with dh but in public. Luckily I've stopped crying on public transport for the most part now. I don't think it's possible to stay in a fearful confused place for that long, so it does get easier to get less upset.

That is really good news about him taking care of himself and also the considerate text is great, great response from you too. And good news about you addressing your responses to anger as well, such a healthy thing to do for yourself as well as your marriage. I hope tomorrow goes well.

Thank you. I think taking care of myself physically is going to be first on my list - I know I am often at my lowest just when I get home from work, when I am tired and hungry and the house is cold and the kids need feeding and there are coats all over the place and school stuff everywhere. It's the time when I am most likely to cry or feel angry or want to contact H.

Tomorrow he is in with the kids. I do have time to pop back at tea time to see them all before I go out to the evening event. But as that's the low point for me and will be a busy and stressful time for him - and only the third time, I think, he's had contact with eldest since he left at the start of Jan, it will be too tense so I am going to stay away and get myself something nice to eat elsewhere.

Funny, Monday mornings are often my low point. I used to love them because everyone went to school or work and I was left alone. Now I just feel abandoned then. Luckily I have a regular aerobics class I can go to first thing Monday now to escape the house. Maybe you could institute a new coming home routine, like playing loud music and having a kitchen disco with the kids while you cook dinner or something? But yes, if that's a low point then best to avoid home tomorrow, I agree. I hope he and eldest get on ok, you might be pleasantly surprised...

I hope so. And if they don't get on, if I am not actually in the house then he can't blame me for it. Eldest is very reactive, defensive, wary and suspicious but after the treatment he's had over the past couple of years, I don't blame him. I've told him I expect the same civility and respect towards H as I'd expect towards anyone who came into our house, and that's all. To be honest I feel anxious thinking about the pair of them in a room together (this is something we plan to address with the family therapist) so it's probably better I am not around.

Control is a funny thing , we can only control ourselves not others . Let them interact, just be ready to validate afterwards and see if you can make progress . Baby steps is the way to go. I hope you get what you wish for I really do but is it worth looking at things with beginners eyes ? Leave the past and make a better future .

That's really good advice, TryHard. I think I do try to control their interactions - I get so nervous they are going to start bickering that I try to manage eldest's behaviour behind the scenes, and pacify H's anger, and get between them, and distract them - and me flapping about doing that is probably very irritating to both of them and no doubt comes across as disrespect to H and controlling to eldest.

I am going to make myself scarce until and unless I am able to be with them with beginners eyes and see a way I can be there without trying to manage their interactions. I hope family therapist will help with this but that's a process we've not started yet.

Good woman , you can do it !! Be strong

It's difficult isn't it? Because our kids are part of us, but then at a certain age you have to release them and let them be less part of us. And eldest is 12 right? Not an easy age (though better than 14 in my experience, sorry).

If I was placing bets I would put money on your husband being on his best behaviour and things going better than you expect without you there. I really hope I'm right! You seem to have a lot of negative expectations of him based on past behaviour but he's shown a lot of positive signs, give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure it won't be easy for him tonight particularly if eldest is awkward or defensive, but it sounds like your husband is willing to try to do his best.

Eldest is 14 - and is very tricky, though in the past H has been very harsh and used humiliation, mockery and name-calling and also the silent treatment in order to contain his behaviour. And that has triggered all kinds of stuff in me, because of my history, so I've reacted in really protective ways, and it has caused a dynamic that feels utterly impossible to unpick. Though I have hope that things will gradually become unstuck, one way or another, with the family therapist who eldest did seem to take to and who I liked, and who, surprisingly, H is willing to see.

I do expect the worst, and I think my anxiety triggers some of what I fear. And I think probably eldest and H are also expecting the worst of each other. It's tense and especially scary for me given my history. It feels like space and time is the best possible thing at the moment, and me taking care of my own wounds, and getting out of the way.

H has never ever been violent towards either of the children - not at all - though as I said, I do consider some of his parenting methods (acts of desperation perhaps) to be emotionally abusive. But we will see. I will be home at 9.30pm and have promised myself I won't call and ring and check up or try to remotely manage the situation - at all - from work. Which in itself is a big 180 for me.

Oh 14? Oh dear, that was the worst age for ds1. You have my sympathy! It's in the nature of being a mum that you're protective, taking a step back from that is hard.
I hope when you do go home that it's gone as well as it could. Well done on the 180!

Well if you have some tips for managing 14 year olds, then let me know!

Last night went well. I came home and they were having a pretty heated but respectful conversation in the kitchen, and I went upstairs and dealt with some laundry until it was over.

After kids had gone to bed, H initiated what I thought was a very open and respectful conversation about parenting methods. I just validated, and said I could see that there were problems that I contributed to, and I was at a loss as to what to do differently but I wanted to speak to the therapist with an open mind and I was prepared to try things that felt uncomfortable to me. I said I thought everyone was very anxious and not able to offer anyone else much in the way of reassurance or support at the moment and that perhaps that would change in the months to come. And I just left it at that.

Eldest was vile this morning. He was relating this conversation he had with H last night (which I overheard) and totally misrepresented - to the point of out and out lying about - a few of the things H had apparently said. I pulled him up on this - said I knew he was anxious and stressed and wary and had good reason to be. And that things were complicated enough without him lying about things that had not happened. He was furious with me. We managed to make it up a bit before he left.

I have the feeling that each of them very badly needs me to 'choose' them and be on their side. They both say that and have said that to me a lot. And I can understand why H feels exhausted and disrespected and like the conflict with eldest has cost him his home and marriage and caused him stress. I also know he feels that he doesn't want to reward that conflict by showing love or spending special time or trying to establish a more friendly bond with eldest. And I know that Eldest feels unfairly singled out, treated differently to youngest, that he's been treated really disrespectfully and that the only reason I've tolerated it for so long is because I'd rather he was arguing with H than I was arguing with H. And they both are right, and I don't know what to do about it.

Came into work early to get a coffee on my own and try to decompress a bit before the day starts. This is exhausting. I really resent feeling like I am in the middle and responsible for fixing three people's issues rather than being part of a family where each person is taking care of their own issues.

I guess my 180 here was that I stayed really calm. I didn't over react, didn't hide away, and spoke assertively to Eldest this morning. I also was assertive with H last night and told him I was grateful he shared what was on his mind respectfully, but I wanted to leave it for now because I was tired and thought it was better spoken through with the therapist. He also started to play the victim a bit and I acknowledged that Eldest was very difficult at times, but that I didn't think H was fully aware of how he came across and that perhaps that was something we could discuss with the therapist. Usually he would rage at the idea that he might have something to change or address, but he just nodded at that and we left the topic still on cordial terms.

It was a 180 for me not to intervene when I heard a bit of conflict going on when I came home. And it was also a 180 for me to challenge Eldest on the fabrications about H - I've been more likely to let that slide in favour of picking my battles or keeping the peace in the past.

Wow, that's a lot, no wonder you're exhausted! You did so well in articulating your feelings and also in being assertive with both of them, impressive. You are NOT responsible for fixing 3 people's issues though, no matter how complicated all the relationships are. And you don't have to choose between them, no matter how much they feel you do. I feel bad for your husband actually, dealing with a 14 year old is hard enough without those extra complications. There are so many hormones and identity and independence issues flying about already.

It sounds like you have grounds for great optimism that your husband can cope with eldest, build a better relationship with him without you getting involved, and also that he's willing to work with you on your relationship too. I think your responses were just brilliant, well done!

My personal opinion is that I need to pick more battles with eldest rather than fewer - and not let his disrespectful behaviour towards H slide any more for the sake of some quiet. And I hope that H would be a bit less rigid and zero tolerance, let a few more things slide and give some understanding, and work more whole heartedly on showing love and trying to develop a bond again. But H is adamant he won't be seeing Eldest properly until he improves his behaviour, and Eldest is privately expressing a lot of hurt at the rejection and I can either act as go-between, which means I get all the flack, or refuse to act as go-between, which means each feels I am taking the side of the other and I still get all the flak.

I hope to be able to lay it all out from my perspective to the therapist in a couple of weeks. She may have suggestions I have not considered.

Yes, hopefully she might have some ideas. I can see that it's a difficult situation to be in! Judging by how you handled yesterday you will do ok though with a bit of guidance, they probably both need a pep talk to change their ideas up a bit too...

It is difficult because Eldest is sometimes a bit challenging with me, but in ways I'd consider usual teenage antics, and it doesn't bother me too much. He really does direct a lot of this behaviour towards H. And H feels blamed, belittled, disrespected, etc etc etc but has never - to my understanding - wondered if his own parenting approach might need adapting for better results. I've decided to say nothing at all about his parenting, my opinions about that, or to act as any kind of go-between at all. Therapist will make her own recommendations and I did like her and trust her so I am keeping as open a mind as I can.

Feel a bit sad tonight. Weekend approaching. No more dates planned, and I have not asked for any. I have GAL - a trip away planned which is partly work but also involves some fun. H knows I am going to be away but has asked nothing about where or when or when I will be back or anything like that. I'd hoped he might have asked for a date, even though the last one was so disastrous, and I have ideas of what I might suggest if he reaches out for another one, but it is important to me that he reach out. I can't do all the chasing here.

I wonder if I am doing too much? I don't want to drop the rope - one of his complaints is that I did not support him, and that has merit. He has asked for support, so I want to do a 180 on that without chasing. I sent encouraging texts and received cordial reply. He has started to ask questions about my day, which is new. I answer briefly and don't go into too much detail. I don't know how long I should keep this up before I stop - given the fact he doesn't initiate any texts himself and has only done goodnight text messages once. It is early days, I know.

I think perhaps I will just keep things going calmly like this until this therapy session towards the end of the month, and take the opportunity in that session just to listen, then take some time afterwards to have a think and see how I feel then. Does that sound reasonable?

I don't think you're doing too much. Him asking questions about your day is very encouraging, even if he doesn't initiate texts. Maybe you could remind him of the goodnight texts since he did agree to them? He did ask for the encouraging texts so that was him reaching out, and that's a big deal for a distancer. I don't think you sound like you're chasing, but maybe you might have distanced a bit too much? Perhaps you could mention your idea for a date and see how he responds? Keep it vague 'I thought it might be nice sometime for us to do X together' and see what happens there. I know you don't want to pursue too much but sometimes one person needs to take a small step forward to get closer. I don't think that suggesting a venue or activity for a hypothetical date is too pushy.

When I think about doing that at the moment I think about all the times in the past where I've asked, suggested, hinted, organised, taken control, begged, pleaded for some kind of emotional connection, time spent together, eye contact, him to actually have a conversation with me at some point between getting in the house, opening up his computer and playing games, then going to sleep. How much I've hated myself for staying with a man who, for whatever reason, refused to actually leave, refused to say he didn't want to be in the relationship, but totally disconnected from me then got angry when I got upset about it. I'm still humilated that I tolerated that for so long, and though a consciousness of my own faults and genuine love and pity for him as he is today keeps me sending these supportive texts he's asked for, my fear of being stuck, attached to a man who doesn't or can't want me, outweighs my desire to approach him more.

I pursued him for years. And his usual responses are 1) passive aggression - saying he wants to spend time together, then going out or going to bed and saying he forgot 2) blame - saying he'd want to spend time with me if only I weren't so awful 3) evasion - changing the subject, redirecting the conversation, not replying to text messages 4) aggression if I point out what he's doing and demand a direct and truthful conversation - by which I mean shouting and name calling and belittling and slamming doors because I'd 'put him under pressure' and 'wound him up' by asking him to act like a husband or at the very least an adult.

I am not sure I want to risk putting myself through that again. He's perfectly civil when I am sending these supportive texts and asking for nothing. When I ask for something, he says he will then forgets or doesn't bother (like the goodnight texts) and I know what his other strategies are to avoid being vulnerable or giving anything to me and I can't bear to be exposed to them today.

I am sad because I am not sure we are making progress, not really. I think perhaps he's just doing a better job of training me to give him what he wants and accept that we're in a relationship where I don't get what I want.

I sent encouraging text this morning. Cordial reply. I can feel the old resentment starting to gather and I am wondering if it would be better for me just to drop the rope and go dark. I cannot, cannot be in the same boat as I was before I kicked him out - with me trying to cajole him or nice him into being remotely interested in me.

Wow, you sound like you've spiralled back in time to some really negative thoughts about your marriage. In order to make progress you have to let those go. You're stuck in victim mode, climb back out of that hole and stop making assumptions that the future will mimic the past. Have some faith that he's capable of change just like you are, ok?

I think you're right. I can do some other things today, and concentrate on myself this weekend. I get like this when I am feeling vulnerable, I know that - and going away from home as I plan to do this weekend always leaves me feeling a bit vulnerable. It's sad to think of coming back to an empty house and I feel resentful about that. I haven't shared any of this with H at all, so he's no idea what is going on with me other than these occasional friendly cordial texts and that's the way it needs to be at the moment.

I guess I am afraid that this isn't a change. That him saying - and he has said very consistently - he just needs to concentrate on his work for the next couple of months and after that he will put his energy into trying to repair things is just another version of, 'yes, I'd love to spend some time with you tonight. Let me just play on my computer and get drunk until I fall asleep on the sofa, get angry with you if you interrupt me to remind me we have plans, and in the morning when you're disappointed tell you that if you'd just been a bit nicer and quieter the night before, I'd have WANTED to be with you rather than drunk and on my computer,'

I won't know, will I - if this is just him doing another version of that. And that in a few months when his work project is over, he'll carry on with some other excuse why he's not ready to actually deal with this, or he'll decide that this months-long audition he seems to be running means that he's decided, in fact, not to bother - and I could have moved on in this time rather than waiting for him. It feels like too big a risk, and I am taking it without really any reassurance from him or understanding from him of what he seems to be asking.

I am all in a tangle today so I think I need to get out for another long walk.

A long walk sounds like just what you need. And yes, it is absolutely a risk. Sometimes I think I'll have put all this time and effort into waiting for dh and maybe it won't work, and maybe I should have just cut my losses and told him where to go and moved on to find love from someone more capable of giving and receiving it. But then those feelings fade (because they're usually about me feeling afraid and vulnerable, not so much about him) and I remind myself of the small positive changes which have happened so far with both of us, and then I decide to wait a little longer.

How long have you been separated now, Dilly? It it about six months?

H moved out about nine weeks ago. Though I said I wanted him to move out back in November, we made it through December and past Christmas. We took the Christmas tree down on the 5th and he went the day after. I have to keep reminding myself it's still early days and I spent the first month falling apart and crying and raging and it is only in the past few weeks I've been able to care for myself fully and properly and get myself on an even keel. His big work thing finishes in mid-May, though I am trying really hard not to consider that the date that I'm going to get some clarity and certainty on the situation. I'm determined not to let this drag on all summer though.

It's been 6 months, yes. When it first started I thought this would all be resolved by Christmas, my expectations have been consistently disappointing to me! It is still very early days for you, I agree. It's probably only been a few weeks now that things have settled down for me properly, there were a series of steps where things would feel easier suddenly, then I'd go backwards a bit, then things would improve a bit more. Funnily enough, all the changes were associated with me having significant dreams and then interpreting them in the light of our M. Which is strange because I'm not big on dreams normally. I guess symbols become important in this situation. I don't think I will go backwards again in a hurry, this new phase feels much happier and more permanent even if there's the odd bad day.
You're allowed to have a mental deadline, it's difficult to have no thoughts about the future whatsoever, but it's difficult not being in charge of the timeline. Don't forget to give your husband time to recover from his big work thing. I'm betting he's seeing that as some sort of deadline himself for looking at your M...

I've had a brainwave. I really do want to get away. The dog is coming, and H isn't really able to commit to childcare while this project is going on - but perhaps I will book myself four days in the week or two after he finishes his project. He will be tired, yes, but you know what - so am I and he's a parent too. And it will stop me thinking that the second he signs off on his project he will be around with a bunch of flowers, and give me change to concentrate on MYSELF at that time rather than what I want from him, and perhaps it will signal to him that I am taking some time to think and put myself first and not just hanging about waiting for what he wants.

I won't discuss this with him today - but perhaps after the weekend when I am steadier I can see if the date would work. The kids will still be in school so all he will need to do is breakfasts, teas, bedtimes and school runs, and I've been doing those pretty much on my own since Jan.

That sounds like a great idea, this stuff is utterly exhausting and you are entitled to some time away. And sometimes just making a decision like this helps you feel more in control. I know when I booked our Easter holiday I felt a lot better, and would have done even if he hadn't agreed to join us for some of it.
Maybe you could frame it as him being able to spend time with the kids once his big work thing is out of the way? It might come across more positively then, let him see for himself that you're taking care of you rather than telling him.

I've booked something. It will be after his big work thing is done. So he has no reason not to step up and be the default parent for a few days. And if he declines or refuses or is otherwise difficult, I will make other arrangements and let that factor into my decision as to whether to continue the marriage. I'm not setting it as a hard deadline for making a decision on the marriage - that will come when it comes - but I am using it as a goal for myself. By that time I want to be in a much better place, and capable of emotionally taking care of myself no matter what he is up to, and realising this period is as much about me deciding if I want to R as it is in me waiting for him to make a decision or have the capacity to R.

Good! It's great to have something to look forward to. I hope you're doing something fun and fulfilling

Hey Alison, good for you. I'm glad you decided to plan something for you. Make sure you fill your time up whilst your away. Book spa sessions, theatre tickets, movies, galleries. Doesn't matter what. Just make sure you keep busy.

I work on projects. There is always a crises if you look hard enough for one. Your H sounds like the type of person who hides behind his work. Crises' make him feel important and needed. But they happen every day on every project and everyone copes: systems sh!t themselves, a vital script doesn't get run and millions of pounds are about to end up in the wrong account, a requirement was missed and now the company ABC is going to get fined a shed load of money by a regulator. I will say it again, he is hiding behind his work because a) it validates his need to be important and b) it allows him to avoid having difficult conversations.

Anyway, when you speak to him about going away, don't ask, just tell him. It is school runs, dinner and homework FFS and it's only for a couple of days. He can manage that. Thousands of us manage it every day and still hold down demanding full time jobs.

Dammit where�s my invite, I could of used a break too

good on you enjoy

Well that did not go well. We were speaking on the phone about something else this afternoon, and I mentioned it.

I'd booked it around the dates he had marked off for his work in the shared calendar. He said things had changed and it wouldn't work for him. I said I could move it backwards or forwards by a week if we could sort out the dates now, so I could ring tomorrow and change the booking without having to pay too much of a fee. He said his work was unpredictable and he didn't know if he'd have to travel or not. I said I appreciated he was under pressure, but so was I and I badly needed some recharge time and wanted to work with him to make sure we both got what we needed. I watched my tone - was really friendly and conciliatory and decent, and not upset or whining or needy either.

He started ranting - 'you wanted me to move out, you got what you wanted, now you're coming to me because you want support and all I need is three or four months to put this first' and I said, 'yes, I did want you to move out. And you wanted to move out too. And you are free to put your work before your marriage if you want to. I am moving forward in a different way. I am not asking you to support me. I am telling you that for a few days in a couple of month's time you need to be parenting both of your children while I make some time to support myself.'

It wasn't as horrible as it usually is, but I didn't get any resolution on dates that would be convenient for him, when I tried to get that information he started being mean or evasive again, so I just ended the call because I didn't like how he was speaking to me. And now I am thinking I should just cancel.

I think me not supporting him previously is a fair point. I also think I can't live my life now solely to avoid his anger. And yes, I did very badly want him to move out - because he was behaving like an utter jerk. And yes, a lot of his behaviour would have been reactions to his stress and my own emotional reactivity in the aftermath of his EA and so I am doing the 180 by being calm and dealing with my own feelings and being as encouraging to him in his stress as I can be. But I want my own life. I was really looking forward to that trip. And if I go ahead and take it, it's one more reason he has to hate me, one more reason he has to tell himself what an awful person I am. And I do want to give my marriage the best chance possible.

I just feel so upset now. He was really angry with me. And I think I understand why - he feels very unsupported, has done for a long time (and yes, this is reasonable - our marriage was basically him withdrawing, being vile when I demanded emotional contact, and me shouting and crying when he didn't give me what I wanted) and then I dropped in that I was going away and needed him to step in with both kids during what is the most stressful time of his working life. I thought it was after his working period is over, but I guess that has changed and it isn't my fault that I didn't know it, but perhaps he's just too depleted and anxious and depressed to keep up with admin like that for my benefit. I guess he feels like the LBS and doesn't feel like doing husband duties once I've fired him. He mentioned these encouraging texts - said that words mean nothing, it was just lip service, it changed nothing and I wasn't going to suck him back in by sending a few texts. And I felt so hurt about that. So incredibly hurt. I know I was ambivalent about sending them - probably he's ambivalent about wanting them. And he can't reassure me because he's nothing left, and I can't reassure him because I'm too conflicted and I know he wouldn't believe me anyway. And I miss him and I feel lonely and I am angry with him and it is such a terrible mess. He's like a stranger. And I want him to come home - not this man I am in contact with now, but my actual husband. And he's just gone. And I was just trying to do something nice for myself, but I didn't think about him enough, so now he has his proof that I am this terrible selfish person and that isn't what I meant at all. I am so tired of being sad like this. And I have been trying so hard and I am so sick of him hurting me and me, apparently, making things worse even when I don't mean to. I don't want to do this any more but getting the wheels in motion on a divorce isn't going to make me feel any better either. I feel so totally trapped in this misery.

This whole thing is a misery, I wish I had the answer for us all , I don�t know what is the right path. Maybe we n need to step up our dB game , can we endure? I hope we can , let love rule and do what needs to be done , be strong when we are weak , we can endure

Oh dear

I'm so sorry things went badly

1. it is not your fault that he didn't communicate to you that he will still be busy on the dates you booked, he bigs this up as a big deadline and if the deadline changed then he should have told you
2. you were willing to compromise on dates to accommodate him, but it sounds like he was too flooded to acknowledge that
3. give him a chance to reflect on things a bit, he might see how unreasonable he was
4. you also have a busy stressful life and you're trying to behave well, so should he
5. he ASKED for those texts when you asked if there was something you could do to support him, to throw them back at you is just cruel (maybe because they DO actually mean something to him?!)
6. don't believe what someone says when they're angry
7. he doesn't hate you, change that script
8. you're in a very unusual situation having asked him to move out, but so is he. Give yourselves both a break. Calm down and see where the land lies after you've both reflected

Hi Alison,

I too am sorry the conversation went badly. You did the right thing. His response is about him losing control. He doesn't want you to go so is now making up reasons for you not to go.

I told my H back in November that I was planning to go away skiing in Feb. I told him a week after he came back from visiting an old school buddy in Dubai. Whilst he was there he thought he'd spend a few days in Asia, so did a detour back that way. He told me about Dubai about three weeks before and didn't mention Malaysia at all.

Anyway, when he got back, he told me he was taking the kids away for Feb half term and I said that that works well, I am going skiing in Feb. His response was an accusation "You're going away without the children ?!?!?!" then a whole bunch of "who's going to look after them?" (his mum), "You're spending a lot of money" and finally "You're so SELFISH". At no point did he think that anything he said was hypocritical. Over the following months, whenever it was brought up (always by him), he would pull a face or huff. He mentioned about a dozen times how annoyed his mum was that I was going away. I would just smile, say "OK" and walk out of the room.

Of course, he doesn't say any of this to anyone else. He reserves his judgement just for me. He even told his mum that he gets to go away on his own so "FS does too". Inside he knows he is being a hypocrite.

He doesn't hate you. He hates losing control. Bring it up again after a couple of days - I'd do this by text. Harder to reactive by text. Say "Have you had a chance to look at those dates? I need to know which dates work for you". It shouldn't be a case of "if you're going away", it's when.

I've just had a terrible night. I understand that he feels he doesn't matter to me, and that the small gestures I have been making aren't going to fix anything overnight, if at all. I get that. And I can see that me wanting him to leave has really really hurt him, and he's expressing that with anger. And he's not ready to look at the reasons WHY I wanted to leave - and despite my own faults, which are my responsibility, he was awful to live with, refusing to engage with counselling, and I was miserably, miserably unhappy and so was he. So I am trying to show someone who has been really awful to me and is still not sorry for it and working on his own changes that I he matters to me, and I am doing that while feeling hurt and alone and scared for the future, and working through a lot of traumatic childhood stuff with the IC so I can be a better version of myself for my kids and not be so powered by my old stuff. And I am just so tired and want someone to encourage me and hug me and tell me it would be okay, and so I know it can't be him, which is why I thought this time for myself would be really good for me. And it's just made him furious. There's nothing I can do.

I'm sorry. I realise I'm not making that much sense. I'm just very upset and I can't see a way to make myself better today. I have to be away for work.

Breath.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

There's nothing I can do

^^^ remember this ^^^ because right now it is your truth.

You are a fixer but you can't fix him. Everything you do right now is going to push him away. He knows he matters to you but right now, he simply does not care . This [censored], but for him, right now, your love is not enough. He is looking for something or someone to complete him, but he cannot be complete, because that comes from inside.

So, if everything you do is going to push him away, then it doesn't matter what you do. And what you should be doing is fixing you. That doesn't mean rant and rave and get angry and tell him exactly what you think. It means showing him compassion and kindness, but at the same time be a little selfish. Concentrate on what you need to heal.

Think of it this way. Leave a place for him at the table but get to a point where it doesn't effect you if he doesn't come home to eat. One day you will either discover that you've stopped leaving a place for him, or that he is, once again, sitting there enjoying dinner with his family. Live your life like that. Let him know that he is welcome but make your decisions yourself.

You are enough. Don't let him make you doubt that.

((Hugs))

Alison: have a virtual hug. You had a traumatic time yesterday and a bad night's sleep. Everything seems hopeless in the aftermath of that, and there's not an awful lot you can do to feel good right now. That said, even tiny things might make you feel a tiny bit better. A long walk, a meditation podcast, a bath, an upbeat song, a phone call to a friend, a trip to the cinema. Do all the things you think might help you feel a tiny bit better. Have an early night tonight. Things will seem better tomorrow.
This stuff is so mentally and emotionally exhausting, just getting through the day takes so much energy. I know so well that feeling of just needing a hug and reassurance and the person who should be doing that being the person who is causing you all this pain. Things will get better, they always do. In the meantime breathe and take care of yourself xx

Alison

It's all about control whilst he stuffs himself full of cake. He's let you down in terms of looking after the kids to let you have some time away. Are you surprised, really? You are still expecting your old H to miraculously return; but looking at things you have previously posted, he's not been that person in a long time. Was he ever really that person? You are still looking to fix and control his return; if I do x, he may do Y. Stop having expectations and trying to fix him.

I can see you blaming yourself; I didn't do this and that's why he feels like that. So what? It's done and can't be undone. It is over. There can be a new marriage IF it is what you are both prepared to work on.

Until he's ready to say that you both did things wrong and let's make sure it isn't like that in the future, you're just going to keep thumping into that brick wall. And getting hurt.

The work is just an excuse. When it 's finished he may put as much effort into his M as he has into his work. But Alison is not going to sit around and run her life solely according to his wants, desires and timetables. He won't forget where you are if he has an epiphany. If he wants to start this M afresh he will show you LOUD and CLEAR.

So, go on your trip and sort something else out for the kids. Friends, parents, godparents, friends from school, you will find people prepared to help.

Sorry to be blunt but if he'd died then what would you have done?

Alison,

hello from the heartland!

Just wanted to say you have to forgive yourself for what you did wrong in the marriage. I have done what you are doing there, where you're hyper focused on your mistakes. I don't think he is as focused on his mistakes though.

You're very worried about him and how he'll handle you taking a trip. You're afraid that it may push him away, and I get that... Just be strong, confident, happy Alison. Be that girl who can do anything! Your trip is about you. If your H has to watch the kids for a few days he will be fine, I promise you. And then remember: he is already gone. What's dead cannot die again, right? So maybe that will help you worry less about how he is going to react. Do you imagine that he was this concerned about how you would feel when he began his affair? Let that help you detach too!

I think him talking about how he needs to concentrate on work for months is just his way of keeping you right where he wants you. Meek little Alison, working around her H, doing what he needs her to do so that his life is easy peasy. I see a lot of expectations and mind reading from you. This doesn't mean you're a horrible person, but it is an area where you can improve! He is all over the place too! Don't believe anything he's telling you.

Thank you everyone. I really appreciate you stepping in and being so kind and having the time to make your comments. I've been away and back for work, a train ride where I could read and mull things over. H got in touch and apologised, explained his thinking a bit. I guess we're both just INCREDIBLY reactive at the moment. If he perceives even the slightest bit of being disregarded or 'not mattering' to me he gets furious and if I perceive his anger with me, I get terrified and start spinning. And because he's so sensitive and hurt and stressed and anxious, he tends to perceive even things that aren't anything to do with him as me showing him disrespect, and because I'm so hurt and wobbly I can't really bear him being angry with me and get on with what I want to do anyway, without fear. I guess I can understand this - and it comes from a massive amount of self-centeredness in him - and in me too - that comes from both of us not having our needs met in this relationship for a really long time. And I have no control over what he's going to do, or not - but I do want to make some changes for myself.

I've decided to postpone the trip. I don't want to go into detail, but I am satisfied this is a really unusual set of circumstances, that he has a deadline he's got some extra time on because of our circumstances - him moving out - and that this really is a once in a career sort of thing. If he doesn't pull off this project, it will have real and genuine long term consequences for his career, and he's terrified about that and it's overwhelming his ability to think about anything or anyone else at the moment. He has many many flaws and I am not overlooking them - but this work thing is genuine.

I've also decided to work on being less reactive to his anger. For my own sanity, and for any future R, should we be in a position to have one, I am going to have to cope with him not liking or approving some of my decisions without going into a total fear-spin about it and either crying and placating or getting angry and trying to convince him to like what I am doing. Even in the best marriages, each partner needs the freedom to act independently and without the express approval of the other on some things, and while I can't do anything about him, I can work on this fear of mine which will help me feel better and be better in future relationships.

I'm also going to work on meeting more of my own needs. This will make me less reliant on him emotionally, and perhaps help him feel a bit less pressured to be the person who is supposed to make everything okay for me. This was a persistent problem with us - and while I think it's changed a lot over the last couple of years, there's further to go and I want to take that journey for myself. I know I seek reassurance a lot, and a lot of my affection towards him comes from a place of fear rather than of love, and he can tell, and that makes him not trust me - he's referred to my encouraging texts as 'currency' and yes - it was cruel - but I also think it's fear - he's afraid I don't mean it and I am just being nice to him to get him to meet my needs, and I think he's got a point there.

I only talked to him for a few minutes or so. It wasn't a long R talk. I said I was grateful for his apology (totally, totally unheard of - I was really shocked by it) and I acknowledged he was scared when I was emotional, and I was scared when he was emotional too. And we just left it there. I saw him briefly today when I picked up youngest and he looked terrible. Really anxious and pale and drawn. And there's not really anything I can do to help him with this work situation other than postpone the trip, which I have done.

But I still do need to get away and spend some time on myself. So I am talking to a friend today about doing some overnight childcare for me and planning where I can go that's a little nearer that will give me the space and reflection time I need.

AND I plan to write a list of things I can do when I do start spinning again - self comforting things I can do when I have the kids, or in the middle of the night - so I am relying more on myself and not turning to H to soothe my fear.

So that is where I am. Any suggestions for anything I am missing?

For someone who never apologises he seems to have done a lot of apologising recently!

It's really such a pity you weren't able to address these issues in MC, it sounds like you went too early when things were much too raw for either of you to look at yourselves instead of each other's faults. But now you are both looking at things in a different light, which must be super hard for him if this deadline is stressing him out. It sounds like you understand him a bit better now, so it's good he apologised and told you where he's at. Complaining about not getting our own needs met gets us precisely nowhere, in fact it makes things go backwards. Sometimes you have to meet the other person's needs before they can start meeting ours, because that way you have each other's best interests at heart instead of seeing the other person as standing in the way of your happiness. That, and meeting your own needs yourself if it's not something you're good at, which you are definitely addressing.

I think that sounds like a very sensible idea to postpone your trip but also to get away for a short time if you can since you need some space. It's also considerate of your husband, and hopefully he will appreciate that.

The encouraging texts: to some extent you might need to fake it till you make it, but it might also be useful to really put some empathy into them if possible. So he's worried they are just manipulating him to meet your needs, and he's been vulnerable by asking for them and it sounds like you haven't really put your heart into them. Maybe if you write a list of your husband's good points and focus on those before you send a text that might help warm up your feelings towards him instead of feeling obliged to do it and that coming across? One of my 180s was doing acts of service for dh willingly instead of with a sigh of irritation at him being so needy and also not recognising ALL THE OTHER STUFF I DID. So now if he asks me to do something (for example I pay his rent online even though I've not been to his flat) then I do it promptly and willingly. And actually that makes all the difference to me, but probably comes across to him somehow too. It's surprising what small changes you can make which change your attitude sometimes.

I think you handled that well, just saying that you were scared and maybe he was scared is useful for both of you to recognise that it's the pattern rather than the other person which makes things difficult. I think in the past I've asked for too little reassurance, and working on asking for reassurance instead of running away is something I want to work on. So I guess wanting reassurance is pursuing and running away is distancing, but maybe articulating your needs in the situation and also seeing the other person's needs is in the healthy attachment zone? I really like the red/blue/green zone terms for pursue/distance/balanced, it makes a lot of sense to me.

I think when we were in MC I was so unbelievably hurt I was like a child really. And he would veer between being abjectly sorry and reassuring me constantly - which I got addicted to and which of course isn't sustainable - or withdrawing and blaming me for his actions and saying he wasn't spending the rest of his life apologising. I thought we were fixing things - but actually (I have uncovered this in IC) there was a wounded child in me who wanted nothing more than a man who had hurt me badly to take all the blame for it and be desparate to make it up to me. No wonder I got addicted to that, and while his behaviour is on him, my reaction isn't - and he can't have a marriage with a woman who is operating at the level of a traumatised child, which I was. I don't think I was in any position to take responsibility for the background that led to his EA, and he wasn't in any position to take responsibility without feeling like it opened himself up to servicing my exaggerated needs for assurance and comforting for the rest of his life. And then he had all this work stress, which made him terrible to live with - grumpy, snappy, critical, controlling, blaming, obsessive - and pretty aggressive when not pandered to - and I just did not have the emotional resources to detach from him while living with him.

He may very well be having his cake and eating it. But that's down to him. I don't want to live with him and I don't want to R with him until and unless he's got some capacity to make more sustained changes, and until I feel safe doing do. I see tiny moves that he is working in the right direction. I don't trust it. I also acknowledge he may just be manipulating me to make his life easier while he finishes this work task. That may well be happening, but if that is true, what I need to do right now is really no different. What I do want to do is sort out my emotional reactivity, meet my own emotional needs, and be as supportive to him as I can be without letting it turn into a covert contract or emotional manipulation. Because I do genuinely care about him, and because I have been selfish in my marriage for a long time and I don't want to be that person any more.

I am going first - but then again, I did kick him out and I am not dealing with the stress he is so I think I have more capacity than he does right now. That means it is lop sided for the time being, and I am going to feel resentful about that now and again, but I plan for this to be a stage. I won't have a relationship like this long term. It will either move us towards being safe enough to have the conversations we need to R, or get me into an emotionally detached and strong enough position to divorce him. I don't know which one of these it will be yet. And I don't think I am going to allow this to go on for months and months and months on end because I've been miserable with him for long enough already.

I applaud you for all of that. Self insight is hard won but you're getting there. And you're probably right about having the resources to sort yourself whereas he might not do. Though it does sound like he's trying. Maybe he needs to trust you as well as you trusting him? It's a two way process!

The months and months thing: you must have taken years to get to that kind of marriage, and you say yourself that you have a lot of work to do on yourself still, so why the hurry? It is sooooo hard to be patient, but it will take time to fix things I think. I think as long as things are moving in the right direction then that's positive (and I say that as someone talking about deadlines on my thread, I know, I'm really vacillating over this!)

Yes - I think he is trying, and he is not able to do more than he is doing. I've been in IC for two years, figuring out what to do about myself and the marriage, and a lot of the self-reflection stuff is more comfortable for me, and totally alien to him. And yes, he has lots of reasons not to trust me. It's very true that during the summer, when I did 'try' to do the things he'd asked for, I'd immediately expect a warm and loving response, and when that wasn't forthcoming, get really upset and sad or angry about it. We've both been dancing around this for a long time. And it's also true that he finds it incredibly difficult to receive things from anyone - it's a problem with him, not with me - that sabotaging me bringing him coffee then complaining to the MC about it was a massive eye-opener for me (more than the EA, weirdly enough) at how dysfunctional our dynamic was.

Hurry. Well. I am not sure. Partly because I have been in IC two years, have been miserable in my marriage (and I am glad that marriage is dead - even though I miss the man he was before things started to go wrong) for a long time, and because I am afraid of being in a position where I am servicing his needs while he's still too afraid or withdrawn to even consider mine. I really really fear being 'stuck' in that position. That's something I need to think about more, and talk about more in IC - and at the moment I am nowhere near making a decision.

I know him to be a man who makes excuses and evades self-reflection and making change. And he's been doing that for years. And I don't know for sure - but as others have pointed out - however real this work stress is (and it is real) it is also another excuse not to look at himself and make changes. And I can buy that for now and give him the benefit of the doubt. But if, when the work stuff is done, he is still not ready to even start doing the work (and I'd need to think about what that would look like for me) then I think I've waited long enough and accepted too many of his excuses already. Who knows - in a few months time I may not even be interested myself anymore, and while that is scary, I am entertaining it as a possibility.

I want to think about my goals for this week. So -

GAL - with friends and my children and also enjoying recharging alone.
IC - booked and already thought of what I want to discuss (calming and centering myself when faced with someone's anger, or what I perceive or fear or mistake for anger) - massive area for me to grow in
sending supportive texts to H once a day but not using them to 'hook' him into conversation so as not to add to pressure
finish off two work projects
puppy-proofing house!
1-on-1 with eldest to discuss fears and worries - practice validation without demonising H so I am supporting him but not colluding with him (I find this v. hard).

I want to think about how to approach family therapy - which is next weekend. I am not sure what I want to ask for, or whether I should just listen, or if that would put too much pressure on H, or if I should just play it by ear, or what. Need some suggestions on this, I think. My goal was to talk about the dynamic with eldest and see if there are changes I can make that will make things easier there. It isn't marriage therapy. I don't know what D's intentions or goals or desires are and I haven't asked him. I don't want to try to control the process, but I want to make sure I am communicating as well as I can and listening as carefully as I want to.

Sounds like you are on target Alison. Would baby steps in H�s progress be good ?( even if you had to guide him ?)

Baby steps would be great. And there have been baby steps - him agreeing to come to therapy for the children is a big deal. Him apologising for the way he spoke to me when he was angry about me booking the days away was a massive deal. Asking for supportive text messages was a change too. He sent a very affectionate goodnight message last night using a pet-name he hasn't used for me in years, and that was a big deal to me too. All of that is a start. I want to balance appreciating the good things, while also accepting that as it stands, it isn't enough to build a new marriage on.

I guess what I would like to see going forward was him showing a willingness to repair things with Eldest. The family therapy might be part of that, and I need to think carefully about how to approach my own side in things.

I would also like to see him initiating contact with me in some way. Goodnight texts are a good start. He's been asking more about my day and my work in the last couple of weeks. I suspect these things are scary to him because he's worried about opening a torrent of crying and venting from me - which is understandable - so I have work to do there also.

I have been working on showing gratitude and making sure to thank him for special efforts he makes - like picking things up for the kids or helping me with some house stuff while he around this weekend while I was away at work. A baby step from him would me for me to see him returning some of that gratitude or noticing some of my own changes. He did say he was proud of me for the work I was doing in therapy (it involves me talking about some painful childhood events I prefer not to go into) and that meant a lot.

I think at the moment though, it would be best for me to concentrate on the changes I want to make for myself around emotional reactivity around anger. He's stressed and anxious and I need to learn to under-react to that for my own good and for ease of co-parenting, aside from whatever happens or doesn't happen in the MR. I am going to take Dilly's advice from above and make a list of things to do that I can keep handy and look at when I get flooded. I think there's a chance he might use the first family therapy session to unload a bit - he was like that in MC as he felt safe to be as brutal as he wanted to be, I guess - and I want to be able to keep a hold of myself and listen to him without getting frantic or upset at his anger, and that is going to be a really big 180 for me.

You got this Alison, stay focused on what you have just said , but keep the baby steps going . I know you can do it !

I like your list of goals for the week. When are you getting your puppy?

The list of thing to do when you feel anxious I actually got from a podcast, 2 therapists were both discussing how they each have lists of 10-15 things to do when they want to calm down. I'm considering doing my own version actually.

I really resonate with the being married to someone who evades self-reflection and change, I felt that my dh was like that and when he left my biggest fear was that this was another way of evasion. But from what I can see so far it hasn't been. I know you're in a different position because you asked your husband to leave. But then I think about how hard change is, and I think that actually I was fairly resistant to change too because I would complain and blame dh but not want to change myself. I feel like this separation has been painful enough that I will change permanently, and hopefully dh will too. I hope that your husband is having a similar revelation, it sounds like there are good signs so far.

Re the family therapy: could you talk to eldest about it? It sounds like you need to stay out of things maybe, because you getting in the middle and wanting to fix them both has been part of the problem by the sound of it. But thinking in advance of how to calm down if you get flooded would be good.

Puppy comes at the end of the month. This is a bit of a sticking point between H and me, actually. Kids have wanted one for a long time, and my work pattern means I have a good amount of time off and work at home time between now and the rest of the year - which meant dealing with a puppy would be possible. H was never super keen, but agreed that we could get one after he'd finished his big work thing. But when he left, the breeder said there was one available earlier, so I said we'd take it, and now he sees the dog as evidence of how little his need are catered to. He will tolerate the youngest being v excited about it in fairly good spirit, but if there's ever any slightest bit of conflict between us, he will bring it up as evidence that what he wants doesn't matter to anyone. I don't point out that the timing of it was done entirely around what he wanted, with his agreement, until he didn't live here any more, and as he doesn't live here it doesn't affect him.

Will work on that list this afternoon - I am feeling good today but these things can change pretty quickly. I am going to practice the 4-8-5 breathing in case it comes in handy for me during the therapy session.

I think my role in that session should just be to listen. But she gave us some homework and asked us each to come and ask for one thing we wanted to change about the situation (not that we wanted to change about ourselves, but that we wanted to change in the dynamic - if I understood her right). I know Eldest has been thinking about it a lot. I think I might say I want H and Eldest to stop coming to me and asking me to change the other's behaviour. That I want to listen and be a support but I can't control what either of them does.

Your husband might change his mind when he actually meets the dog and he can see how your kids love it. Most people come round eventually. Us not having a dog has always been a huge complaint of dh's, he would really love a dog but I've refused because he was only home an hour or so in the evenings and I would have ended up with all the work and I've never been keen on the idea.

I need to work on my own list, clearly...

That's good that eldest has been thinking about it, maybe you can take something of a back seat in this situation and let him and H drive most of it.

I hope he will change his mind - or at least, even if he never falls in love with the dog, he will stop seeing it as 'evidence' as his needs not being met - he is looking out for evidence of that everywhere at the moment and finding it where it doesn't exist. I can see why - but I can't live my life around that.

Got my goodnight text last night and sent encouragement this morning. Cordial exchange. He tells me about his day, but didn't ask about mine. I got big good news at work and I wanted to tell him, but held back. I guess that is going dark?

I have big urges to reach out tonight for extra reassurance. To get him to remind me he plans to come back and work on things, and to ask him how he feels about therapy on sunday, and to ask him to go in with an open mind, and all kinds of needy and controlling stuff. I am trying not to contact him from a place of fear but only of love - and I'm mainly in fear tonight so keeping myself to myself.

Plan for tomorrow - work, kids, some GAL and house improvements. I have IC in the late afternoon and have plenty to talk about regarding reactivity and his anger - trying to get myself into a place where I can respond to anger from an adult place, rather than from a petrified traumatised child place. I am not there yet but I want to get there for my own sake.

FWIW I think you should have told him the good news actually, but you did the right thing not asking for reassurance when you were in that place, it's never gone well for me!
I hope you feel less needy today and that IC goes well for you, it's hard work isn't it?

It is really hard work. Some of the childhood stuff is difficult to talk about. I can see I have kept it to myself for many years, pretended to be fine and an adult, and handed all the leaking-out insecurity and reactivity to H to deal with. Which has made him feel like a parent not a H, and led him to act like a bossy controlling parent and not an equal. His actions are on him and I will work towards healing and change my part in the dynamic no matter what he does, but he will have his own personal stuff that made him stick with a woman operating at the level of a traumatised child for such a long time. I have been in IC for two years working on these things, and that co-incided with things getting bad between us. I got stronger - slowly - and he didn't like it. Ah well. He will either do the work on himself or he won't but I am moving forward towards being healthier on my own for the time being.

I feel less needy today. Tired and resentful to be working so hard and doing all the kids stuff on my own all week too. He's around tomorrow and will take over then while I go out and GAL, which I am looking forward to. A couple of cordial texts from him to me today regarding arrangements for that, which I responded to warmly without pursuing. I hope to get to bed early after a shocking night's sleep last night.

My IC is always going on about how I do have needs every time I say I don't want to be needy. It's such a balance isn't it?! I suppose neediness is when you don't articulate your needs properly and react to stuff out of fear instead of stating them. Really needy is a terrible word I think, maybe we need to use insecure or fearful instead. Though again, being insecure or fearful is ok but not if you just react from that place without telling the other person and just dumping all your fears and insecurities on them and blaming them for your own feelings. I hope you sleep well

Just journalling. A good night's sleep last night, though woke up feeling two entirely contradictory things - kind of needy and lonely and wishing he would reach out and show some affection or give some reassurance (no goodnight text last night, which made me think 'more of the same - he asks for something and I do it utterly consistently despite him throwing it back in my face - I ask for something and he can't be bothered about half the time') and a general contempt or dislike for him. It's strange to have those two feelings at once. I plan to concentrate on myself today.

Call him out on it. 'You agreed to text me goodnight. You didn't do that last night, and it would mean a lot to me if you stuck to that'
There could be plenty of reasons he didn't text you, but he needs to know that he has to stick to his word. Otherwise how can you both build trust in each other?

Well, that's what I'd do. Dh nearly broke our rule to have a date night once a week early on and I told him that it was our agreement and was important for us both to feel safe. Since then he has been flexible about making other arrangements if the logistics are really difficult for date night. It might be a small thing but if it helps your safety then make it clear that he needs to stick to what he promised.

Alison I agree with dilly. Ask for what you want . You are having to put your needs on the back burner for a while . Stay strong and keep going

Calling him out or asking him for what I want when I have already asked (nagging) is exactly what I'd usually do.

And saying yes to something he doesn't want to do, doing it half-heartedly or resentfully, pretending to forget about it, or blaming me for him not doing it, it exactly what he usually does.

So I am not going to call him out. Not going to mind-read. I am going to see what happens. I am also taking a step back. He doesn't get a wife if he isn't able or willing to behave like a husband.

Sounds good , does he know this ?

It's not nagging if you only do it once and do it assertively. If he doesn't do it after you remind him nicely once then fine, back off. But I don't think it's nagging to pull him up on it if it's important to you. He seems like he does want to change, give him the benefit of the doubt. You could even frame it slightly differently
'I noticed you haven't been sending goodnight texts as you agreed to. It would mean a lot to me if you kept doing this *insert reason here*, but if you're tired last thing at night then maybe we could change the timing of the texts. I'll leave it up to you to think up a solution'

Would that work? How important are the texts? Or are they a test of his commitment and ability to change something small? Could you ask for something else important instead?

That's a good point, Dilly.

And I am not sure how important it is to me, or why. I don't want to set him a test then use his failure to give me what I want in exactly the way I want it to prove to myself he's not committed, not trying, and too selfish to want to make the effort for. I don't want to use his shortcomings as an excuse to get out of working on my own. And I don't want my encouragement of him - which he's asked for - to be transactional - I'll only text you in the morning if you text me at night. I suspect he's worried about that too. He did use the word 'currency' to describe it when he was angry last week.

I don't know what else I'd ask for, to be honest. The state things are in between us, my asking for something means he is suddenly unwilling or unable to do it consistently and him giving me something I actually asked for makes me doubt it actually comes freely and lovingly from him. That's the state we're in at the moment - the utter lack of trust on both sides.

So I really do think the only healthy thing I can do is send the encouragement and work on myself. He knows I was unhappy in our relationship as it was, he knows why I was unhappy and what I wanted to see change, and he knows I am working on my own changes. What he does in response to all or any of that is up to him but I do know I want to see him do it without managing or manipulation from me. And I am not sure he's ready to respond assertively and honestly to an honest and assertive request from me.

That's fair enough, if only for the transactional thing. Leave it for now and see what happens. Maybe trust right now is you sending the encouraging texts without expectations. And maybe in future you will be able to ask for things and have him come through (he has for family counselling, after all...)

Yeah. And me basically not complaining about him not giving enough will be a 180. And it doesn't mean I need to get back into an R where I am not receiving what I need. At the moment, we're not in an R. He says he wants to work on the marriage, and I am making the changes I want to make and watching if his actions match his words. I'm also aware I don't look at his actions with a generous or loving or detached eye most of the time, especially not this morning. And while I am in that mood, it is probably best to do nothing. Which is also a 180

lol, 180s all round!

hope you had a great night last night GALing!
Good luck with the family therapy, really hope it goes well for everyone

Just journalling. Saw H on Wednesday - and it was fine. I didn't mention anything about the messages or lack of them, and he was a bit cool with me at first but then relaxed and we had a nice chat with the kids, ate as a family then I went out to GAL for a couple of hours with women friends he doesn't know. He asked me what I was up to and I kept it vague and friendly, 'just seeing a few ladies for cake and coffee.'

I asked him a few weeks ago if he was coming to the house to spend time with the kids in the evening would he not bring whisky with him (he's not an alcoholic, but he does drink when stressed and he's an unpleasant and argumentative drunk and I'm never going to tiptoe around my own front room when he's drunk and glowering in a corner ever again). I've never mentioned it since asking that one time, and he's never done it since, and didn't on Wednesday, so I am glad about that.

Seems like he enjoyed spending time with both kids, and Eldest seemed happy to have spent that little bit of time with him. So that was good news and I am really glad that no matter what happens or doesn't happen with us, that the kids have been able to have that easy warm contact with him without me around and that the Eldest was included. I think it might also break the ice a bit for the family therapy session, which is this weekend and which I feel a bit less anxious about, as I've decided just to listen as much as I can.

He stayed for a little bit afterwards - we needed to discuss putting some parental controls on the internet, which I've changed, and how to handle something I'd found on a computer Youngest had been using. I felt he was being really supportive and not blaming me, which is new and I felt good about that. He mentioned again wanting to work on things, and I said I hoped we got to that place but I struggled to trust him right now. He said he'd be surprised if I did trust him at this point, and we left it there - very naturally and without hard feelings.

Had goodnight messages every night since.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

He mentioned again wanting to work on things, and I said I hoped we got to that place but I struggled to trust him right now. He said he'd be surprised if I did trust him at this point, and we left it there - very naturally and without hard feelings.

You are handling these interactions really well! Do you think he's being genuine about working on things? Is he in IC?

I�m in two minds about it.

When I am feeling compassionate I can see that he has been as miserable as I�ve been and he�s been hurt and disappointed too. I�ve been able to use the separation to process some of that but he�s had to concentrate on this project - and that�s just the way it is. So I can believe it�s his hope and intention to work on things and he knows that involves taking responsibility and making changes but he can�t do it yet and he�s been pretty consistent in that message.

When I am feeling afraid it just feels like more of the same - for a long time I have pursued him hard to take responsibility, be honest and make some changes. I forced him into MC. He�s always had some excuse as to why he couldn�t do that - either blame, evasion or delay. I worry he�s just buying time because he doesn�t want to deal with a divorce and by waving this carrot he thinks he�s pacifying me. He is capable of cruelty and I have been on the receiving end of it from him before.

I don�t trust him partly because he lied to me so easily during the EA and partly because he�s still so withdrawn emotionally. I don�t trust him because I still haven�t seen him show any sustained remorse - he likes to play the victim or admit he has hurt me but I�m worse so have no right to actually be hurt. And I don�t trust him because I find it hard to really trust anyone and that�s my childhood stuff - I own it and I am working on it but I�m not there yet.

I guess at the moment I just have to accept I don�t trust him, work on myself and see what he does when he�s free to make whatever choices he likes without me pursuing him. I do need to decide what actions he�d need to take for me to be able to get on board with piecing and I don�t know what I want to see from him or what that would look like yet.

He�s not in IC but has agreed to family therapy with the focus on positive co-parenting and he�s had one session with that therapist alone in order to prep. First family session soon. I invited him but didn�t pressure him and said I�d do it with the kids with or without him, and meant that.

Do you have any suggestions for me?

He does need to earn your trust back after the EA, but trust also has to be granted. Maybe remorse from a proud man might be an expectation too far? Could he act remorseful without actually saying it? And hasn't he already said sorry a few times and therefore actually proved he is capable of using those words?
You're doing really well, be patient and wait for this work thing to finish I reckon (says me pushing stuff at the worst possible time for dh...) He is showing plenty of positive signs, what I wouldn't give for my dh to take D off the table and talk about working on things. Sigh. Your H certainly is not just talking but acting so far, I suppose you need to work out how long he will have to do 180s to prove his changes are real.

In terms of the EA, I believe him when he tells me he is not in contact with the woman in question any more. I can also understand - in terms of him wanting things that I was not offering at the time - why he'd be tempted. I can see it was a bit of a fantasy and a boost to the ego and while I don't like it, I totally get it - because I have used work (my career has been a bit more sparkly than his, always) to boost my ego in a similar way. It isn't pretty, but I do get it and see those same tendencies in myself expressed in different ways. We did talk about it a lot at the time, and I do believe he was genuinely shocked and saddened by how devastated I was. And I don't think I want to address it with him again - I want to let it pass. I am just insecure. He chased the OW and showed her how keen he was and made himself vulnerable by making it clear how much he wanted her company and interest in a way that I haven't seen him do with me for years. I guess I want some of that, and even though the EA is over, he hasn't yet felt safe enough to do that with me.

The work thing is out of the ordinary and has a definite end date and I am prepared to be patient and reserve final judgement on it all until then. I don't know how much longer after that I will wait to hear him say, 'okay - yes, I want to work on things and here is what I want to do' or even if it is fair of me to expect or demand that kind of verbal commitment. We are not in piecing and I don't think I am ready for piecing myself yet - but I don't know how I will tell if he is ready.

I can see that would make anyone insecure. I hope you do get some of that. The uncertainty is very difficult isn't it? I really hope family therapy was useful.

I was just reading back about how you tried to 'force' him to make changes. That is very pursuer-y behaviour... No matter how well intended, to a distancer that comes across as critical and like you will never satisfy the pursuer and never be good enough. Maybe your husband will be like me and experience enough pain for him to want to change without the pressure. I always thought I was open to change and to improving myself before, but I was wrong. I made everything about my husband's bad behaviour without looking at my role in things and in how he experienced my behaviour. I still have a lot to learn I think, probably the rest of my life!

Yes - I was so desperate for my marriage to work and so urgently needed him to stop doing the things he was doing that were hurting me. A mature and assertive response would have been to move away from him - to set some boundaries to protect myself from his bile and nastiness. But I wasn't healthy enough to do that - instead I defended, cajoled, convinced, persuaded, cried - all the usual stuff. And all that just triggered more nastiness from him. I don't do any of that any more. I do kind of wish I'd left him, or forced him to leave, much much much earlier as I am not sure if the damage we've done to each other is reparable. I hope it is, but I can't change the past.

Had GAL today and it was lovely. Really enjoyed my time with the kids. It's a bit sad to think of him alone and working - or processing, or whatever it is he's doing - and not enjoying that with us. Even when he's with youngest they don't really do anything fun together. He's just so little capacity at the moment. I am doing my best with the encouragement but I don't expect much from him at the moment and I don't think that's going to change for a while. We will see how the therapy goes tomorrow. I am feeling pretty anxious that he'll just use it to unload on me - as he did when we went to MC - but I know I won't tolerate that any more, and I also want to go into it with an open mind and ready to listen. And knowing in my heart I am moving forward and every day takes me away from that misery I was trapped in, and today that feels good even though the future is so uncertain.

ARG. That was really, really hard.

Two hours with the family therapist. Eldest left after half an hour or so, and the rest of the time H and I spent talking about parenting. Therapist said she had difficulty knowing what we were working towards - co-parenting as separate people, or working towards him coming back. H said he wanted to come back, I said that I was open to that, but not if it involved me rolling over and agreeing to things that I could not get behind. H was pretty obstructive - lots of complaints about any suggestions from me, unwillingness to make any suggestions of his own. Eldest was also reactive and sulky and pretty ill mannered at times. I managed to validate and keep calm and collected but I can't say I thought it was that productive. Not sure this therapist is the ideal one for us.

He left, and I phoned him - mainly because I wanted to say thank you to him for trying (he finds that sort of thing exhausting and difficult and I was really appreciative he made the effort) - and he ended up coming back and we talked a bit more. The upshot is, he is very clear he wants to try again and go forward as a family but he wants to feel that he matters and that he and I are the parents, together, and not me and Eldest. I do think he's got a point in that. I said I wanted to do that, but for that to work for me, we needed to come to some agreements on parenting privately, between ourselves, be united on them (though take into account what Eldest is communicating about his needs) and deliver them together. I validated his feelings on where I had not done that in the past, and where I thought his perceptions of things were spot on, I told him so. I also told him that while I wanted that, it didn't mean I could always 100% agree with him, and that I would need him to be willing to make changes too and while I was willing to let him think about that and come to his own decisions, the children needed parenting now and the door was open for collaboration, but there were decisions that were time sensitive and if he couldn't collaborate, I would go forward on my own. My fear is that if I disagree with him in private, or if Eldest doesn't do what we agree he should do, that H is going to blame me.

What I found easier in this conversation than before was to think the best of him and to see the fear and hurt underneath his bluster and anger. I also felt less afraid of his anger. I see he feels totally rejected and unimportant and somehow me punishing Eldest in a way that feels acceptable to him has become a proxy for him feeling important to me in other ways. I can see he feels massively hurt that he I communicated some of that to him, and said I had done him wrong and that mattered, and that I wanted to show him respect.

We left it on friendly terms. I have a lot to think about. We agreed to take the week to think things over and each come up with a list of things to change based on the conversation with the therapist and some consideration of what Eldest needs. And that we'd sit next weekend and agree on some middle ground, and how to implement that together.

I'm afraid that if I don't capitulate on everything he's going to feel disrespected and unloved and that I'm going to have to end up taking parenting decisions I really can't feel okay about in order to keep him. I'm aware of that, and plan to discuss it in IC. I can't get into the mindset that I'm doing any of my parenting as a way of healing my marriage, though I think I do have parenting 180s to do whether or not the marriage is reconcilled.

I think I need to rest.

That does sound mentally exhausting! Quite hopeful though. You've written it down, have a good night's sleep and then think about it more when you're not so overwhelmed. There's so much complicated stuff in there.

It really is. I think the parenting thing is a massive, massive issue for him. He feels pushed out by mine and Eldest's bond. He feels we're a unit that has taken a side against him. I can see why he'd think that, and I know he's absolutely right that there's been many occasions that my fear of conflict has landed him with the dirty work of parenting. He's been bad cop. And the stricter he's been, the more I've compensated by being comforting and empathic, and the more he's compensated by being harsh, and the more Eldest has taken advantage of that (and been upset and hurt by it). It takes both of us to move, and someone to go first, and because I agree that Eldest needs firmer boundaries, I am happy to go first. But I also need him to be showing warmth and a change in his communication style towards Eldest. And none of this is much to do with R, though I don't want to R unless we can sort this out well, so of course it is to do with R.

Yes, it is to do with R but also separate. Everything is so complicated. I can identify with being the good cop, I left dh to be the mean parent, the parent who imposed strict rules, the unreasonable parent. The parent who was at a disadvantage because I knew the kids so much better and spent so much more time with them and comforted them. I told dh in my email to him the other day that I wished he had a better relationship with ds2. Ds2 is 14 and so at the most tricky age, and he has always been close to me, but I told dh that he's like a cat, you just have to hang about for a while and wait for him to come to you and offer him little titbits (in ds2's case it's his subjects of passion). The other time ds2 opens up is during car journeys with just us two, so maybe I need to tell dh this too. Ds1 will travel up to see dh on Fridays but ds2 refuses to (he's like a cat, he's territorial...) In a way I've been reluctant to want dh to be close to ds2, that was really rubbish of me I can see now.
Sorry, got off track there with my own story, but our relationship with our kids is complicated and impacts our relationships with our spouses because they have their own stuff there too which we can inadvertently interfere with ('you're doing it all wrong'). And as our relationship with our kids changes as they grow up, we need to step back and let things happen more with both them and with our husbands. It's difficult, don't we have enough mourning to do already when we're losing our babies?

it is really hard, isn't it? I have to weigh really carefully where I am bringing in my own father-issues into this relationship (and I am certain I have been for a long time and that has been really unfair to H, who is difficult and flawed and has acted badly, but is not a monster as my own father was) and where H is using Eldest as a kind of proxy - I get the sense that if I disagree with him - even quietly and in private - he feels it is disrespectful, rather than considering me as an adult with a good sense of what my children need and how to form a good relationship with them. It's certainly a tangle.

I am valuing my alone time tonight. I haven't missed him too much recently because I have such a lot to process and such a lot to do on on my own.

I appreciate hearing your story and your experience. It is hard. I have suggestions - many suggestions - for how H might improve his relationship with Eldest. But in the end I think that comes off as micromanaging and interfering and just reinforces the fact he feels disrespected and Eldest believes he's incompetent. I think I have to support H where I can honestly do so, examine myself and my own motivations very carefully with the help of my IC, and be very boundaried around behaviour that is inappropriate no matter what H might decide to do in response. It feels exhausting.

I'm not sure anyone likes being micromanaged do they? Maybe this is something to discuss with your husband? When he would welcome constructive suggestions and when he wants you to back off and butt out. Might be a very useful topic of conversation, no matter whether you R or not. I admire your communication with him recently, there is so much good stuff in there.

It is better. I think the validating I have been trying to do helps. I would like some empathy and validation myself and there's not that much of it forthcoming, but hey ho. He did give me a hug today and say he knew it was hard and he could see I was trying my best, and that was new and did mean a lot.

I feel very vulnerable tonight. Like my marriage depends on me being able to force Eldest to do what H wants him to do, and H's standards are much more precise than mine. I want to meet in the middle, and I also want H to understand that we can set boundaries and choose our response, but neither of us can force a teenager to do much of anything - we don't really have that much control over the outcome, only our responses. This makes me feel really panicky. But I need sleep and I think I have to trust that H will think about this this week and if he feels listened to and respected in other ways, his need for perfect and total obedience from Eldest will become a little more flexible and (to my mind) realistic.

I also have a much darker feeling I am not proud of. Eldest is difficult. Stroppy and reactive and argumentative. I think it's in the scale of normal teenage behaviour, and is definitely worse with H than with me. I don't want to end up hating Eldest because his hostility to H and unwillingness to make a compromise and give another chance costs me my marriage. I don't want to get into blame. I hate feeling like this - and it is only a glimmer of a feeling - but I will take it to IC this week and process it safely and in private.

Ugh. Head churning today.

It wasn't a useless session, and there were moments where I could see that H was trying hard to communicate. But sitting with him that long really reminded me of all the reasons why I don't want to live with him.

He's incredibly critical - isn't able to say what he wants, only to point out what he doesn't like. Won't make suggestions for changes or solutions to problems that affect him.
Totally unwilling to compromise to meet the needs of anyone else. I suggested we both needed to come into the middle, gave examples of things I felt I needed to change, and said I was willing to go first. Asked him if there was anything he felt he could change or move on. Point blank no, no way, not considering it, not even talking about what would need to change so he could consider it.
His preferences and needs are 'facts' - I guess it makes him too vulnerable to consider them needs or wants, so he externalises them - and other people's preferences and needs are just that and so optional.
Blame. Won't say what he wants - even in the session - then when we were coming towards a decision, claimed that what he wanted hadn't been taken into account, then when the therapist asked him to say what he wanted, he claimed there wasn't enough time to go into it - which is classic evasive tactics.
Vague. Started talking generally about boundaries. Therapist pressed him for specific example. He got exasperated and said it wasn't possible.
He started raising his voice and berating me at one point - and I flinched - then he got angry with me because I'd flinched and claimed I was play acting in order to get the therapist on side. I asked him if he'd lower his voice as I found it upsetting, then he started whispering sarcastically.

I have no idea why he went, I really don't. I didn't force him, and I gave him the option at every point of discussion to say he didn't want to, to decline, etc etc. But he doesn't seem to be capable of considering change or asking for what he wants. It was, in some ways, a nasty trip back to the past of living with a resentful, bitter, bile-filled child and I never ever want to go back there.

I've made the list that the therapist recommended and sent it over to him. He's told me he needs everything to be in specific detail, and also that he doesn't like getting long emails from me as he hasn't got the time or interest in digesting them. So no doubt I will have failed on one of those two requirements and our conversation on Sunday will be about the many ways I have got things wrong either in the past or now.

I am so exhausted by this. I am not sure I have the strength in me to keep putting myself through it and I don't know why I want to carry on. I could divorce him pretty easily and the financial consequences would not be terrible for me.

That sounds very hard

It sounded like he really struggled to really articulate what he needs, and also like he was very uncomfortable during the session. But it also sounds as you say like he wanted to try, he's just not there yet. The hug and the empathy from him, hang onto that and see his anger and unwillingness to be open as him feeling scared and unable to be vulnerable. Plus men are often just not as good at talking about feelings as women, they don't have the same emotional range allowed to them. AND he's a distancer, and we are just crap at talking about difficult emotions, trust me on that one!

You're feeling disappointed, hurt and hopeless. These feelings will pass. Go take care of yourself, get your walk and your fresh air in and calm yourself down. Sometimes I think this whole process is more like a seesaw than a rollercoaster...

Please start a new thread and link the two threads together. Thanks!

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He's incredibly critical - isn't able to say what he wants, only to point out what he doesn't like. Won't make suggestions for changes or solutions to problems that affect him. Totally unwilling to compromise to meet the needs of anyone else. I suggested we both needed to come into the middle, gave examples of things I felt I needed to change, and said I was willing to go first. Asked him if there was anything he felt he could change or move on. Point blank no, no way, not considering it, not even talking about what would need to change so he could consider it.

All that points to him not being ready or committed. You might consider switching to strictly co-parenting counseling and drop any marriage counseling for now.

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Blame. Won't say what he wants - even in the session - then when we were coming towards a decision, claimed that what he wanted hadn't been taken into account, then when the therapist asked him to say what he wanted, he claimed there wasn't enough time to go into it - which is classic evasive tactics.

Yes exactly, he's treating everyone like the enemy and counseling as if it's a battleground rather than making any significant effort to use it as a tool to improve communication.

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He started raising his voice and berating me at one point - and I flinched - then he got angry with me because I'd flinched and claimed I was play acting in order to get the therapist on side. I asked him if he'd lower his voice as I found it upsetting, then he started whispering sarcastically.

It sounds like he has a lot of hate and anger in his heart and it's pushed away his capacity to feel love.

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I have no idea why he went, I really don't.

To say he "tried everything". That's why they go. At least now you know he's unwilling to work on things and can take action accordingly. I'm sorry it didn't go better, but he still has to fall a long ways and hit bottom before things might get better.

It wasn't marital therapy - only for co-parenting, Another Stander - but I take your point. He doesn't seem really invested in finding a solution. I agree with you about his anger. I suspect underneath that anger is a whole lot of hurt about feeling unimportant and rejected. And while some of that he's brought on his own head by his behaviour, some of that is fair and reasonable. And I can do what I can to take his views into account and be open to compromise, but if he's not going to tell me what he wants, the chances of him getting it are just about nil.

But I have sent him this list of suggestions and he has the week to think it over. I won't engage in any more absorbing of blame. He can either come up with his own list, and we will meet in the middle, or I will go ahead with mine as I do think there needs to be a bit more structure and boundaries in my parenting. I am prepared to go ahead and parent as I see fit without his co-operation and while we're separated, I don't need his co-operation. I'd prefer to have it, but I don't need it, and whether he gives it or not is down to him.

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