First time poster here. I apologize for my lengthiness, but I really need to get this out and get some opinions!
I discovered DB about 2.5 weeks ago when my W dropped our 2nd BD. I haven't read the book (yet), but plan to very soon. I've been scouring the forums reading everything that I can in the meantime, and have read other self-help and psychology books.
This all began in September 2018 when my W dropped 1st BD, "I'm love you, but not in love with you" and "I'm not attracted to you, and never was". She also said that she did not and never has enjoyed sex with me (some of this is warranted, but I am 100% sure that we've had many great sexual experiences that she is not recalling). This came very soon after a two week European vacation together that was amazing on all accounts. I did all the wrong things, started having panic attacks, begging, crying, etc. but I also started seeing an IC, working out more, and trying to do positive things for myself. During this period we were invited to a friend's wedding in India (Feb 2019), which we were both very excited about (having never been there). W decided she should go by herself for "space", and I planned a separate trip to SE Asia (April 2019) to see a good friend. Then her sister joined in this India trip, then her brother, and finally her brothers friend all jumped on this two week trip to India which I was not invited to.
We started going to MC, and it helped somewhat, but did not get to the root of the problem which W said were sexual issues. During MC it came out that my wife had been talking to her ex and had not been honest about it. During a weekend trip I had out of town they had a 4 hour phone conversation that she kept from me until I forced it out of her. He does not live anywhere near us (luckily), and she has previously said that he is verbally abusive and a complete dirtbag. During counseling she agreed to stop contact with him, but since then has been very secretive about her phone (we were previously always open about phone, texts, emails, with no boundaries).
We continued to go to MC, out counselor said she had experience in sex therapy, but it was clear that she was completely out of her element talking about sex. This actually brought W and I together, laughing about how awkward and unhelpful our counselor was. We eventually stopped seeing our counselor together, but each continued IC. We made incremental progress, and eventually my wife told me that she WAS in love with me and WAS attracted to me. Our sex life slowly reignited, and we were happy again. Things had started to be back to normal in Dec/Jan, but I was dreading this upcoming time away from each other when she went to India. She assured me that we would talk regularly, and that everything would be fine. We started talking about starting a family together, and planned to start that process when she returned from India. Before she left on her trip, W put together an amazing romantic gesture for me which consisted of daily love letters and photos for me to open while she was out of town.
On Valentines day, W was still in India, but had not been very responsive to my messages (one word/short sentence responses only via facebook). I opened up a lovely valentines card from her that talked about how much she loves/was in love with me and our future plans. I sent her a message telling her how much I loved the card and happy valentines day, with no response for hours. At this point I asked her what was going on and to please talk to me and she gave me 2nd BD via facebook on V-Day. W "wanted out and was ready for a divorce". This was a huge surprise to me and made absolutely no sense. A few days later she was in the states (wouldn't let me pick her up from the airport) and wanted me to come up with a plan to leave the house and was 100% sure she was ready to divorce. The last 6 months of real love, positive sexual experience, and self-improvement no longer existed to her, and her entire family knew we were getting divorced before I did.
I found DB a few days later, and we lived in the house, sleeping in different beds. She insisted that I move out very soon, and I told her that I would leave at the beginning of March so we could have space (I know, not the best decision). I bought a non-refundable ticket so that I could visit my family throughout March and have a support network (we both live ~1000 miles away from any family - we moved for her job). I'm lucky that I have a remote position and can work from anywhere.
During the two weeks that we had at home together, she was very hot and cold, sometimes angry, sometimes loving, but always insisting that we had no path forward. She tells me that I am the best man she's ever known and that I've been nothing but a perfect husband and partner, but she just isn't attracted to me and now doesn't want a family with me. I've been forthright with my intentions to fix our marriage, but have been trying to GAL, devote myself to my work, and continue to get in better shape. I have a sneaking suspicion that there is an OM in her mind - the non-sibling in India, and accidentally saw a message on her phone gushing about him to her sister - it is likely this isn't reciprocated, but I have no idea. I've told her I will not stand in the way of divorce, but am completely opposed to it, and see a future for us even she takes that step. Our last two days together before I flew away to give her space were very good. She was giving me lots of attention, and I could see hurt and confusion in her eyes. We slept in the same bed my last night in town, and even kissed as she dropped me off at the airport.
I'm now staying with my parents and surrounded by a wonderful support network. I'll be returning home for one week at the end of March before I go to SE Asia for 2.5 weeks. I've convinced her (I know...I know) to consider this a "trial separation", but I've already gotten loving goodbye messages from members of her family as if we're already divorced (I have a very good relationship with her entire family). She plans to file for divorce once I'm back from Asia and our "separation" is over. While I'm away, I'm attempting to detach and allow her to miss me, but my confidence in this working is very low. She wants to rush into this with (seemingly) no thought, and I'm so scared that my entire life is slipping away while I try to wait her out. I know I made the wrong decision leaving the house, but I promised it to her and I stand by my word.
Potential influencing factor: Two of her very best friends have recently been divorced (they were cheating SOBs). She also has lots of girlfriends who have been divorced.
I have no idea what the right course of action is here. I love her and will do ANYTHING to work through our problems. I've already reached out to sex therapists, but know that we cannot begin that process if she isn't on board. How do I rebuild attraction in the meantime? I know that detaching right now is the right course of action, but what steps should I take to show her these improvements in the limited time together that we have?
Thank you all so much for reading. I'm so lost.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
W is sending me pictures of our dog. She knows this comforts me, and I think she's honestly concerned about me. Should I acknowledge these at all?
Jamine,
cool name. I have some thoughts for you.
Why are you moving out? She had an emotional affair, if not more. You should not move out IMO. You seem emotionally strong enough to withstand this or I'd think moving out isn't the worst idea.
She is obviously all over the place. You can't believe anything she's saying or doing. She doesn't even know half the time.
Listen to her when she says she is 100%, don't try to argue with her over this. Try understand her point of view, and at least acknowledging how she might feel that way.
Unfortunately there probably is an OM on her mind. It seems like that recently caused you a lot of problems. And I can't believe you jumped straight into planning the rest of your life together and talking about kids. If you knew then....
Let her rush if she's going to rush, don't try to stand in her way unless you want to speed things up. I agree with allowing her to miss you, but I hope you can manage your expectations.
I know I made the wrong decision leaving the house, but I promised it to her and I stand by my word.
Have you actually moved out, all your stuff?
I'll find the "attraction" link if I can. But you say you want to "show her" all these things to win her back. You're going to do the dance to win her over, eh? How about be strong and confident in yourself just as you are? Which do you think is more attractive?
Please quit worrying about all her friends that are horrible people. You can't control it, and you'd be better off focusing the mental space to a more positive endeavor.
Don't respond to the pics of the dog, you should be busy doing fun, important things in your life. She is seriously talking divorce, so what's the point of the little warm and fuzzy pictures? I'd do a search for the last resort technique. It's what you need to do.
Thanks for the reply. I haven't actually moved out of the house, I just took a few bags and left (and will be back in 3.5 weeks). I won't actually move out until she files for D, which she is saying will be at the end of April.
I've been listening earnestly to her, and acknowledging, but was absolutely trying to use logic to convince her to change her mind. I'm done with that now, I realize that she cannot be convinced by logic or anything else that I say.
We'd been discussing a family for a while before 1st BD. Then came the OM, her ex. She said their conversations were benign and I did see some emails that confirmed this. Regardless, it was a breach of trust and definitely an EA in her mind. It only took her a few weeks to admit that this was a terrible decision...I thought it was a quick phase and not indicative of future behavior. I've really wanted to start a family, and I just got sucked in, not realizing that this was even a possibility again.
Your right, I need to make these changes for me, and not for her. I actually feel soo much better and see a path forward for myself without her now that I'm out of state. I've been attempting the LRT, I just have not been very good at it yet. It did get me to start controlling my emotions more around her - I dealt with the 2nd BD sooo much better than the first.
I think I'm going to do much better with the LRT now that I'm not at home. She knows that I adore our dog - I think she's sending these pictures because she knows that I miss him, not to test me or anything. I did not respond to the dog pic, and afterwards she texted me asking where to find something in the house, which I responded with a very straight to the point business-like response. I'm very scared that I'll backslide when I go back at the end of the month. I really need to embrace the tough love concept, it just feels unnatural for me.
Oh, and I may have misrepresented her friends. They are two of her girlfriends that were cheated on by the SOBs. Her friends are actually all good people, but they are very much in a "single party" mode - I wonder if my wife feels left out about this.
This is extremely helpful info.
I definitely suffer from a lack of confidence. I used to be very confident, but this is a quality that I haven't nurtured since my marriage. I'm trying to become more decisive and not be worried about confrontation.
In terms of dropping the rope, I've just done everything wrong so far. 180 starts now.
I'm curious if anyone has any input. How should I handle texts from family? I got a message from her sister today saying how much she'll miss me and that I'll always be family, etc. I am sure her parents will eventually be reaching out to me - how do I handle contact with W family when I'm using LRT?
Just tell the inlaws "thanks" and if you need to add more then tell them that your W will need their support.
You don't need to talk to her family much, that's how to handle it. They will turn on you when it comes time to support their daughter. You may not believe me, but I didn't believe it either, yet here I am.
What is your plan for your living situation if you do get divorced? Are you going to buy her out of the house? If so, you definitely have no reason to leave. You have plenty of time to figure out your living arrangements, no rush to move out in 3.5 weeks. You can always tell your W "I was very upset when I said that, I've decided it's best for me to stay in the house."
Make sure you read Divorce Remedy and the LRT section. MWD lists out several forms of pursuit.
My plan if we get D is to move away from the city that we currently live in. I really love my life and my home there, and have started to build a small network, but we've only lived there 2.5 years, and I don't think I'd be happy there if we weren't married. I moved there for her job; I work remotely and will probably just put my stuff in storage and go on an adventure somewhere - maybe live in a different country for a month or two. W says that she wants to buy me out of the house, and I believe that would be the best for both of us.
So, my current plan is to come back in 3.5 weeks, stay for 1 week, leave for Asia for 2.5 weeks (tickets bought months ago), and then return home. I did say that I would move after that if W wanted me to, but you're right, I was definitely under duress when I said it, and I need to make that decision for myself. If W hasn't filed for D, it sounds like the best move would be to stay.
I've ordered Divorce Remedy and it will be here on Tues or Wed - I can't wait to dive in and keep learning.
In the meantime, W texted me to check on me. I replied that I'm good after 30 mins, W immediately replied with a very lengthy response about her day. I think a 180 would be for me not to reply.
I really appreciate the support.
Jamine, sorry you are here but welcome. Glad you found us.
My first comment is related to your title. NO ONE is perfect. Believe nothing they say and only half of what they do. Think about it, if you were perfect she wouldn't be considering D. It is a way to let you down easy. Perfect spouses do not get BD'd twice in 6 months. Also, her callous way of telling you the second BD over Facebook is just full of disrespect.
You ask how you regain attraction? It starts by regaining respect. Let me ask you, does moving in with your parents engender respect? How about getting home from Asia, you move back into YOUR home.
When it comes to WAWs and WWs filing for divorce is ALWAYS in the future. Again, words and actions don't match. "It is over. I want a D." Then they drag their feet on actually filing. Not to give you false hope but a lot of time they are more interested in the glamour of getting a D and being single, rather than wanting to face reality of D and the process.
Here is my vote:
-Move back in once your Asia trip is over.
-Continue to work on detachment. Lisening to her and validating, but not giving in to her demands or defending yourself against her accusations.
-180 on any bad behavior. I know she says you were perfect. But what about 180ing on doing things that do not command respect? If you are willing to move on based on he demands, what else haven't you stood up for yourself over in your marriage? Remember, attraction=respect. You can't have attraction without respect. Demand respect by doing things that do so. Also, get a new haircut, get new clothes, start working out, go get a manicure and pedicure even!
-GAL. Keep it up. Move back in but then always be busy. Go out and have fun, meet new friends. You have no kids so this should be easy for you.
You've got this man. Yes you've made some mistakes. But you can correct them and turn this around. And at a minimum, even if you end up D'd, you can go into the next phase of your life with your head held high.
I know I'm not actually perfect - there was some bitterness in the title when I wrote it, trying to emphasize my confusion between W's words, actions, and phases.
At first, I thought I was doing the "noble" thing by agreeing to leave the house. I thought that if I gave her real space, without contact, she might miss me. I realize now that this wasn't the way to go, but I've got to live with this mistake. I will plan to live in MY home when I return from Asia. She knows that I'm planning to come back there, and there was no date set for me to move out or anything.
I'm doing a lot of things wrong, but I know I'm doing a lot of things right too.
- I take care of myself and my looks. I always dress well.
- I'm in pretty good shape already, and just joined a new HIT gym and did my first workout this morning. It felt great.
- I'm trying to GAL. I have some close friends that live in the city I'm currently parked in, and plan to connect with them ASAP.
- I definitely have issues with confrontation. I'm not scared of being yelled at or physically harmed, but I used to work in the service industry for many years and "Yes" has just been beat into me. I hate the idea of disappointing someone, but I'm actively working on this. I just read "The Courage to Be Disliked" and it gave me a much better perspective.
- I've always been a "nice guy" and a sap with women. I have to break this habit.
I'm curious if anyone has a perspective about 180s vs. validating. My wife's last message to me last night was about her day, and I did not reply to this because I thought since I was LRTing this was the right way to go, and she expects me to reply. Would a better approach be to validate with a simple message like, "I'm glad you had a good day."?
I would apply the following texting rules.
Do not response to informational texts. If she asks a direct question, answer it. But only in your own time (not right away). Answer in as few words as possible. Yes or no questions get yes or no answers.
Thanks, I'm glad I made the right decision on that one. It all feels weird, and unlike myself, but I guess that's the point. Nothing I've done so far has worked, so might as well try something new.
So I am trying to be a man that only a fool will let go . Problem is I am impatient
Tryhard, I'm right there with you. Initially, I thought that if I just worked hard enough I could fix things, but I never changed my mentality. 6 months later I'm worse off than when I started.
Those that struggle the most are impatient. Patience is a KEY to DBing. Jamine, just like I told Tryhard in his thread, you really only have three choices:
1) Doing the wrong thing
2) Doing the right thing
3) Doing nothing at all
3 is the best. Because it is almost as good as 2. AND it has less risk because so often the LBS thinks they are doing #2 only to find out later it was #1.
When in doubt, do nothing.
Steve, thanks for this. I've been trying to figure out what the right thing is this whole time, when nothing is the answer.
I know that I CAN be patient. 2 days down...forever to go.
Update from last night:
W sent me pictures and a video of our dog. Said that he misses me. I replied, "I miss him too".
W asked me if I could wait to come back home until 4/2. W's mother wants to visit that week, and we only have 2 bedrooms in the house. I leave for my SE Asia trip on 4/4 at 5 AM, and it will be 10+ hours of flights to get back to my house. I replied that I want W to have time with her mother, but that I need to come back home and have time to relax and prepare for my trip. W tried to argue, and I did not reply. W's last message was late last night "It's okay, do what you need to do, and I'll figure something out."
I feel like W is testing me. She knew that I was planning on coming home before 4/2, and any reasonable person would know that this is not enough time to transition from one very long cross-country trip to another very long international trip.
I have not replied yet, but was planning to reply, "Thank you." and purchase my ticket home (3/28) and forward her the itinerary.
Seeing this ridiculous request from her really puts things in perspective. I've been so caught up trying not to make this process difficult for her "out of love" that I've forgotten how little I've considered my own needs. I know that this is only a small step, but I feel good standing up for myself without justifying or arguing.
I don't know if she was testing you as much as just trying to keep you away so she could do what she wants regardless of how it inconveniences you. I wouldn't send her a thank you text either, just let it be. Your W and her mom can figure this out on their own, and you don't have to stay away from your own home to accommodate it either. No need to forward her the itinerary either, your W is not keeping you aware of her actions, right?
You should feel good about standing up for yourself in a positive way.
I ended up not replying to W's texts at all, and she sent another unprompted text this morning from bed saying that our dog keeps looking for me in our guest room (W and I were switching off rooms after 2nd BD) along with another picture of him looking very sad. I replied, "I wish he was here with me" in a moment of weakness.
I know that I should be ignoring W's texts, but I really really like getting them. I know it sounds silly to many, but I do miss my dog a crazy amount. I've only sent replies to direct questions so far, except for my acknowledgement today. LRT is hard - I felt so strong about this yesterday and feel so much weaker and emotional today. Maybe a workout will help.
I know that I should be ignoring W's texts, but I really really like getting them.
It is not about ignoring the text. It is about how you respond. Steve's advise above is dead on. Read it again.
You are not busy enough. Focus on doing things that you enjoy. Things that you want to do. Things that you need to do. Get out of your head. Be in the moment.
Next time W text about the dog:
H:"W, thanks for sharing. I plan on taking him to the park when I get back."
I've always been a "nice guy" and a sap with women.
There's the problem. Want her to feel attracted to you? I can tell you what to do. Dump her! You won't listen, b/c you are new and are dying to do ANYTHING.........
except dump her. At least, appear that you are through with her.
Look, she's intentionally keeping you on the back burner.....or Plan B (as we call it). I suggest you text her that considering the recent developments, you have a lot to think about and feel it best to go radio silent until you return home, unless there is an extreme emergency. Then sit back and watch all the text, photos, etc. flooding your way. Just don't respond.
I'm planning to meet up with a friend tonight to catch up. Trying to embrace GAL, but the weather is not cooperating with the outdoor activities I was hoping to do.
I'll wait to see if I hear from her again today. If I do, I'll let her know that I'm taking time to think about things and not to expect any communication from me. I know that I've been put through the ringer, lied to, and mistreated, but I'm still thinking about how I'll hurt her feelings by saying this...I have to stop caring so much.
Everyone want to talk to much (to their wayward spouse). You do not need to explain anything. You can set boundaries with your words if you need to, but I strongly suggest doing it with your actions.
Less words is always better. In person is stronger than text.
Sandi
H:"W, Considering the recent developments, I have a lot to think about and feel it best to go radio silent until I return home, unless there is an extreme emergency"
You
"I'm taking time to think about things so do not expect any communication from me."
Me:
W'bla bla ba"
W"Bla bla ba"
W"Bla bla bla Are you OK? bla bla bla"
1 hour later H"Yes"
W"Bla bla bla"
W"Bla bla bla"
W"Bla bla bla"
W"Bla bla bla why aren't you answering me?"
W"Bla bla bla H??"
45 minutes later H"W, I am busy and texting is not my top priority."
W"Bla bla bla"
W"Bla bla bla"
W"Bla bla bla"
W"Bla bla bla"
W"Bla bla bla"
W"Bla bla bla"
W"Bla bla bla"
W"Bla bla bla"
W"Bla bla bla"
Update today...
No contact from or to W since her text yesterday morning. I went over to a good friend's house last night and had a great time hanging with him and his family. Started my day with a killer workout - an attractive woman there kept looking at me and smiled at me before I left. Meeting up with a friend I haven't seen in a decade tonight, and I'm excited to reconnect.
Yesterday I really didn't think I could do this. Today is better; I feel more like myself, and CONFIDENT.
I wouldn't be here without the support of all of you. You've helped me more than you can imagine.
Enjoying life while going through M problems can be very challenging. However, the people who survived healthily, said that GAL was key. Focus on what you enjoy. Keep your calendar full. Listen to upbeat music and watch motivational Youtube videos. Whatever inspires you and keeps your spirit up.,.....your primary goal needs to be YOU. That may sound selfish, but I'm just telling you what works. The more focus you put on your W, the more depressed you will become.
You are going to hear several things that will probably sound completely opposite to what you've always heard to do to have a good MR. You are no longer in that former place of doing things to just build a good MR with your W. By the time people come to the board, the M is in serious trouble and it usually requires counterintuitive actions to save it.
In your spare time while you are away from home, you might purchase a little book, No More Mr. Nice Guy. I think you will see yourself within those pages. Unless there is some mental issue with your W, I can almost guarantee you that the root of the problem is that she has lost a certain amount of respect for you as a man. You may have a fantastic job that supplies every material thing she could want. However, if you've allowed her to wear the pants in the relationship, then she has lost attraction for you. That's how it works. Women are designed emotionally to where they have to feel respect for the H, in order to feel attraction/desire for him. Although a woman likes and wants emotional needs met by the H, he cannot coddle her to the point he is in more of a subservient position in the MR. Make sense?
Some men actually brag how they spoil their W, but if she is not appreciative and admires him as a
man........then spoiling her is not a good thing. I can't get over how many H's go home from work to their stay at home W (who has not lifted a finger to get anything done) and proceeds to do all the chores b/c he doesn't want his W to have to do it. What?
These guys are just asking for trouble! Do you see what I'm saying? Some of these guys actually thought they were showing love by letting the W lay around all day while the man worked and then went home to everything there. Maybe none of this applies to your situation. It's just an example.
Some men become a "Yes, Dear" type of H. They think going along with whatever she says is the way to keep her happy. Of course, this means he doesn't stand up for himself, and he pretty much just lets her call the shots, right or wrong. He would never call her out about her bad treatment. If you want to kill attraction dead its tracks........that's the way to do it.
How have things been in the bedroom for the last couple of years (maybe longer)? Be honest, we're all friends here.
Before this situation came from her recent trip, how would she usually act when you were away from each other?
Yesterday I really didn't think I could do this. Today is better; I feel more like myself, and CONFIDENT.
That's great, Jamine. How long has it been since you've felt like yourself?
I think you previously said something about struggling with not enough confidence. Do you know why this is a struggle for you? Would you say your W builds your confidence by showing admiration, or does she tear you down by critical remarks?
Just got a text from W asking if I'm monitoring her (I'm not). She said she was freaked out when I said I'd seen a suspicious text on her phone last week (talking about potential OM to her sister, but not conclusive EA or PA). Not sure why this came up now.
I replied, "No, I would never do that. I'm focusing on myself right now, and have no desire to monitor you."
Was this a good response? Trying to train myself to do this right.
Just got a text from W asking if I'm monitoring her (I'm not). She said she was freaked out when I said I'd seen a suspicious text on her phone last week (talking about potential OM to her sister, but not conclusive EA or PA). Not sure why this came up now.
I replied, "No, I would never do that. I'm focusing on myself right now, and have no desire to monitor you."
Was this a good response? Trying to train myself to do this right.
I never get why LBS post "This is what I did"
A better choice is to wait to respond and post "How should I respond to this text?" get several options. Pick the one you think is best and then reply.
Also, never reveal your sources of intel. Do not reveal what you know, only that you do know.
My response:
H"W, why are you freaked out. do you have something to hide?"
W:"Bla bla bla ...private. bla bla bla"
H"Secretes between married people is never good for the relationship."
W" bla bla bla nothing to hide bla bla bla:
H:"We both know that is not true"
W bla bla bla justify my deception"
W"Bla bla bla
W:Bla bla Bla bla are you going to answer me??"
H"I believe it is better to have this conversation in person"
W: Bla bla bla"
Yesterday I really didn't think I could do this. Today is better; I feel more like myself, and CONFIDENT.
See? These feelings come and go. The sooner you understand that and TEACH YOURSELF how to manage them the sooner you will take charge of your life.
Your W is asking if you're monitoring b/c she's probably doing something she shouldn't be, like texting her OM. Your response was good, but a bit lengthy. Try to phrase things as naturally as possible.
Just checking to see if you read my last post.
Regarding how you answered your W...….it was good.
We use what I call DB language on the board. You are picking up on it, and will see what I mean as you go along. I caution you about using that language with your W. For example, we told you to
focus on yourself, right? Then you repeated that phrase to your W. However, this was not meant for her to hear. Just you. It's best if you don't try to pass along to her something that sounded good to your ears. I've seen other H's take something from the board and work in his conversation with the W, b/c he thinks it will influence or impress her. Usually, it just sounds odd and out of place. She knows he's picked it up from somewhere, b/c it doesn't sound like him. Make sense? However, the way you said it wasn't too bad.
I replied, "No, I would never do that
Such a nice-guy response. She immediately put you into playing defense.
Why do you suppose she suspected you of monitoring her. The bigger question is why would she freak out?
I think this would be a good time to send her the text about going radio silent.
I replied, "No, I would never do that. I'm focusing on myself right now, and have no desire to monitor you."
Was this a good response? Trying to train myself to do this right.
Yes it was good. This would have been great: "No, I have no desire to monitor you."
It does beg the question, how did you see the text?
In your spare time while you are away from home, you might purchase a little book, No More Mr. Nice Guy. I think you will see yourself within those pages. Unless there is some mental issue with your W, I can almost guarantee you that the root of the problem is that she has lost a certain amount of respect for you as a man. You may have a fantastic job that supplies every material thing she could want. However, if you've allowed her to wear the pants in the relationship, then she has lost attraction for you. That's how it works. Women are designed emotionally to where they have to feel respect for the H, in order to feel attraction/desire for him. Although a woman likes and wants emotional needs met by the H, he cannot coddle her to the point he is in more of a subservient position in the MR. Make sense?
As soon as I finish The Divorce Remedy I'll pick that up. Our relationship dynamic has shifted drastically after 1st BD, I became much more needy and emotional, started having panic attacks, severe depression, etc. We BOTH became much more dependent on each other when we moved far away from our friends and family, but over the last year she has started pulling away, requesting more space, going on more trips with her girlfriends.
How have things been in the bedroom for the last couple of years (maybe longer)? Be honest, we're all friends here.
That's a complicated question. Our sex life has certainly dwindled over the last two or so years, but we almost always reach the target together. W's become very controlling in the bedroom, getting visibly angry when I do anything "out of script", and essentially ordering me around. This has definitely impacted my experience, and I've tried to discuss it with W, but she really places all of the dissatisfaction on my shoulders.
Before this situation came from her recent trip, how would she usually act when you were away from each other?
We would generally talk on the phone daily, or at least text message multiple times. She would send me sweet messages, sometimes pictures. It felt very natural to me.
That's great, Jamine. How long has it been since you've felt like yourself?
I've been very depressed for the last 6 months, and TBH it's hard to remember. Probably not in the last two or so years. I should have started IC a while ago.
I think you previously said something about struggling with not enough confidence. Do you know why this is a struggle for you? Would you say your W builds your confidence by showing admiration, or does she tear you down by critical remarks?
She used to show me admiration constantly - she was almost obsessed with me. She'd stare at me all the time and constantly tell me how amazing, smart, good looking, I was. There's been a gradual shift over the past year or so, with more tearing down remarks, but not exclusively or anything. Before 2nd BD she was starting to seem more like herself and was very supportive.
In regards to the text message that I saw. I was sitting with her and helping her set up an app two days before I left town (last week). Afterwards, I looked at the pictures on her phone - definitely a bad move, but she was right next to me and didn't say anything. I saw a few screen shots of text messages. One was to her sister gushing over this guy. Another was between her and the guy, and it looked pretty flirty. I immediately confronted her, and she told me it was harmless and got super defensive about her phone. I completely collapsed and apologized, and she said she forgave me. We've not talked about it since.
I have no idea why she screenshotted those texts. Seems very careless or fishy.
One was to her sister gushing over this guy. Another was between her and the guy, and it looked pretty flirty. I immediately confronted her, and she told me it was harmless and got super defensive about her phone. I completely collapsed and apologized, and she said she forgave me. We've not talked about it since.
I have no idea why she screenshotted those texts. Seems very careless or fishy.
J I am going to be completely blunt with you. If you don't change your behavior immediately, you are going to dig yourself into a hole you will not be able to get out of and it will end badly for you. You caught your wife sending completely inappropriate texts to another man and you collapse and apologize WTF??????? She forgave you WTF????
Look man I know this stuff is not easy but the first thing you need to do is find your b@lls and let her know this is completely unacceptable behavior to you. You can't control her but if you let her walk all over you I guarantee it will end badly for you.
Please read up on boundaries and start to think about whether you are ok being in an open marriage.
Look man I know this stuff is not easy but the first thing you need to do is find your b@lls and let her know this is completely unacceptable behavior to you. You can't control her but if you let her walk all over you I guarantee it will end badly for you.
I know, I really messed up here. I was completely out of my mind and thought that maybe this was just a friendly thing, and I was scared of losing her. This is why I'm here, and I'll never make this mistake again.
I feel like a confrontation is not the answer right now, especially since I'm states away from W this month.
I know, I really messed up here. I was completely out of my mind and thought that maybe this was just a friendly thing, and I was scared of losing her. This is why I'm here, and I'll never make this mistake again.
J,
This is the problem. What you fear you attract.
Just so you know I am not asking you to confront her I am just telling you that you don't apologize for her BS behavior.
Lets talk about your fears. Why do you fear losing her? Will your life be over? Are you afraid to live alone? Are you afraid you won't find anyone else?
Below is a post I want you to read to help you understand what is happening right now.
Very sorry for what you've gone through here, it's heartbreaking. You've done some things very well and handled the initial situation as well as can be expected. More recently however you're falling into a very familiar pattern that leads to a long period of pain and limbo.
Being in this situation is like dying of thirst floating on a raft in a poison lake. Everyone will tell you not to drink the water, and why you shouldn't drink the water and what will happen to you if you drink the water. You can intellectually understand what they're saying, you "get it", you can convince yourself that you're not going to drink the water, but each night when you go to sleep and each morning when you wake up, you're thirsty as hell and the water is right there, so it's extremely easy to convince yourself that a little sip can't hurt. Despite the fact that you know you should not drink the water, you will just keep doing it because you keep convincing yourself it’s okay to do so because you're just dying of thirst.
So how do we bring that to your scenario? There is really only one prescription and that is to take the focus off of W entirely and focus only on you, your life, and what you want from it. Your learnings about what you need to improve about yourself are an asset you take with you, but everything else about W, what W is doing, what W is thinking, etc. needs to be entirely put aside.
You are not safe for her to approach until she feels you've let her go. That's a simple truth, but incredibly hard to accept.
Reaching out to W, making overtures, contacting W's family, talking to OM's W, snooping on W, this is all "drinking the poison water"
Why are you doing it? Why are you so obsessed with W? You were in a relationship with a woman who wasn't meeting your needs, who would irrationally blame you for anything that went wrong, and then cheated on you and lied to you. Why is that a prize worth making the focus of your waking attention?
The reason is that you are grasping to re-establish a feeling of control over your life.
When W dropped the bomb she ripped your sense of stability away from you. From your perspective you didn't do anything to deserve it, you couldn't stop it from happening, and you couldn't put things back together afterwards.
That would make anyone feel totally out of control, spinning down the drain, and that is a horrible feeling!
You are trying to analyze and understand everything so that you can build it into a rational model so that it will never, ever happen to you again. If I can avoid doing X, then Y will never happen. In addition, you want to unlock this puzzle, to deconstruct it so you can find the solution that will allow you to rebuild it. Finding that key would provide immense comfort.
Your brain has convinced itself that getting W back, or getting W to apologize and declare a desire to have you back is the very best and fastest way to restore your feeling of being in control.
With the benefit of time and distance, you'll realize that's what it's really all about, it's about regaining the ability to feel in control of your life and your future. It really has very little to do with W or who she is as a person, she's a lever to get you what you want, but that's really just an illusion.
You're dying of thirst (feeling out of control), and pursuing W is drinking the water out of the poison lake. You think it will satisfy your thirst each time you do it, but really it's just making you sicker.
We will tell you "don't drink the water!" Intellectually you'll agree, but the water is always there and logically it seems that drinking it is the shortest path to no longer being thirsty.
Instead, you need to paddle your ass to the shore, leave the raft behind, and get a drink somewhere else.
That's not code for having your own affair or finding a new woman to have a relationship with. It has to do with finding an authentic way to rebuild your feeling of being in control, controlling your own destiny and getting your mojo back.
If you take the focus off of W *completely* she will notice. That will give her space to breathe, and to think. That's the only way these things turn around -- the ONLY way.
Don't drink the water. I know its right there. Don't drink it.
There is really only one prescription and that is to take the focus off of W entirely and focus only on you, your life, and what you want from it. Your learnings about what you need to improve about yourself are an asset you take with you, but everything else about W, what W is doing, what W is thinking, etc. needs to be entirely put aside.
LH19, thanks for sharing that post - I know this is the direction I need to go.
I am definitely in a different place now than when this incident happened. This was last week, and honestly it feels like an eternity since then, mostly because of all that I've learned here. Since I've left home, I've completely changed my communication pattern with W. I know that I can improve, and I will continue to.
Divorce Remedy just arrived in the mail. I'll be reading tonight!
J,
That's good but remember that we call it a roller coaster ride for a reason.
Remember that this is a marathon and not a sprint and this will most likely no shake out completely for many months if not years.
Good luck Man!
Hi everyone - quick update here. I didn't hear from W on 3/7, but then got a message yesterday asking how I was doing and if I needed anything. I replied, "No, I'm good." after about an hour, and W sent me a nice message/emoji almost immediately. I haven't replied to that and haven't heard from her since.
Some couple friends of ours sent a group text to us asking if we wanted to hang out soon. They have no idea about our R troubles - I was thinking of responding that I'd love to see them both when I'm in town in an upbeat way, and not reference my W. Any opinions on dealing with mutual couple friends?
Since my last update I've stayed the course with healthy eating and regular workouts. I've spent time with friends, and family, and I'm about halfway through The Divorce Remedy (reading out of order pertaining to my specific issues). Hoping to do more outdoor activity once the weather is good, but I'm definitely GAL regardless. I'm feeling more independent and confident, but like my life is in a holding pattern. I don't go back to my house until 3/28, and I have no idea what life and interactions will be like at that point.
One week of separation down. Things definitely improve every day, but I'm having trouble thinking about the future. I'm used to planning everything out, and I feel like everything in front of me is a question mark. It's not bad, just unfamiliar and a bit scary.
Some couple friends of ours sent a group text to us asking if we wanted to hang out soon. They have no idea about our R troubles - I was thinking of responding that I'd love to see them both when I'm in town in an upbeat way, and not reference my W. Any opinions on dealing with mutual couple friends?
perfect
One week of separation down. Things definitely improve every day, but I'm having trouble thinking about the future. I'm used to planning everything out, and I feel like everything in front of me is a question mark. It's not bad, just unfamiliar and a bit scary.
So if you are separated, how would that picture look if you planned the next three or four weeks without your W in the picture?
It would look like exactly what I'm doing now. Working out regularly, eating healthy, spending time with friends and family, and working on learning a few new skills. I do return home in 2.5 ish weeks - I'm already ready to be there, to sleep in my own bed, live in my house. I guess I'm more nervous about the months afterward, what living in my house will be like, how W will treat me when I'm home...
I almost broke today. I had a great day, but I found myself at home 30 mins ago with my phone in my hand, ready to call her to see how she's doing. Instead, I picked up The Divorce Remedy and read through LRT again, then came here and regained some focus. Phew, feeling much better, and didn't mess up LRT.
I guess I'm more nervous about the months afterward, what living in my house will be like, how W will treat me when I'm home...
She may give you the full meal deal before time to leave again. Here's the thing, you have determined your actions based on your W's moods or treatment toward you for so long, it is ingrained to plan everything accordingly. However, if you are separated, then I would think you are free to basically plan whatever GAL you like. However, I think you may be more concerned about how to interact with her while in the house together.
The 37 rules is a guide that many people have found to help them have an idea of the do's & don'ts at this point.
If I may give you a piece of advice, I'd tell you to .remember your moral courage and spiritual beliefs. Don't compromise your integrity. This is the biggest thing I see going on with newcomer LBH's. They want the W who doesn't love them, and they jeopardize their own core values trying to cling to someone who doesn't want them. You said you once were a strong man. Find that strength again. Do not seek anything from your W. Let her feel all the freedom in the world. No emotional pressure by saying ILY. No pressure by showing affection. Act in a friend-ly manner, but don't cling to her. Give her all the space you can, but don't feel you must "hide out".
You will probably see all sorts of conduct from your W, which will confuse you. My advice is to stay calm and try not to take every word too seriously. When you see something in her body language that you think suggests she is not as cold as previously......don't fall for it. Just remain calm and act as if nothing has changed......b/c it hasn't. You'll drive yourself crazy if you try to make her every move and/or spoken word as some special sign/meaning that things are shifting in the right direction. I wish I could say we see it happen that easily and that fast all the time, but we don't.
You do not have children together, is that correct? Does she normally travel a lot without you? What's the longest stretch of time has she been completely alone while you were away working?
BTW, keep your DR book concealed and if you share the same computer, you probably need to clean the history. Why? B/c when she sees changes in you, she'll start looking. Women are curious anyway. The DB tools are for you, not her. It's not that you are reading anything bad, but when the W discovers it, she tends to scoff and say your changes are b/c you read that book. It seems more effective when the other team doesn't see your play book. Know what I mean?
Anyway, hold your head up, shoulders back, and walk tall. You will make it through this ordeal
Sandi,
I'll definitely look to the 37 rules regularly so they are easy to recall once I'm back home. I know this is going to take a ton of self control, and I'm attempting to practice this now while our contact is minimal.
You do not have children together, is that correct? Does she normally travel a lot without you? What's the longest stretch of time has she been completely alone while you were away working?
We do not have children together. We usually travel together, however she's gone on a few "girls" trips in the past. These have mostly been weekends away, and not often. W's trip to India was our first real extended time apart. I usually work from home and have a local office, I'm only away now because I thought W's request for space might be positive for our R. I agreed and booked my tickets before I found out about DB.
I'll definitely keep DR and all of my activity here concealed. We do not share a computer or accounts, so this shouldn't be too difficult.
Thanks so much for your input.
I'm only away now because I thought W's request for space might be positive for our R.
A couple of things here. 1) When a woman tells a man she needs space, it's never positive. 2) If she requests space, then
she should be the one to leave......not him.
Yeah, at this point I'm kind of stuck here until the end of the month. Had I discovered this site a month ago, I'd not have made this decision.
Wow Jamine. You defined a lot that happened with my story especially my Ex's arrogant behaviour towards me. Other than the EA part, pretty much the entire thing revolved around what i faced in my stitch. Top it all, We had SSM issues and I faced verbal abuse as well. I read all your posts including the the DB veteran comments. In fact I think you share the same job as I have and we pretty much are from similar regions from Asia (Working from home thingy gave it away!!!) .
Interestingly, the timeline is so seemingly similar. I was in the EXACT position as you are last year around this time. And now I am in a free man in a far better situation and shape and enjoying my single life.
Since we both are from similar backgrounds, I can advice you one thing for sure - Your marriage is over (I know it is hard but it is true. Please don't take me wrong) You need to take suggestions from all the veteran's post here and follow their advice diligently. Become stronger. Stop giving a damn to her. Add to this, her family will always support her and will go with her decisions. They may be buttering you and trying to soothe you, but in the background they are cooking up things against you. So any innocent gesture from your (soon to be) Ex will have to be put behind and you move forward like a man and come to the level where I stand - a level with Dignity and Respect, that no one can simply take it away. I can totally imagine your situation and I definitely FEEL for you man. In fact i do see a very similar me in you and trust me nothing can go wrong with GAL. You need to start getting attractive again, women should find you impressive, start dating, move away from her thoughts. That is the ONLY WAY to go and trust me I have learnt the hard way. You will come out just fine in the end ultimately.
One thing I wanted to advice you is the Remote work thingy. I was doing a very similar thing as you did. This sometimes make women wonder that we are lazy as they keep seeing us not the "Outdoorish" active type. Here is where your respect has slowly dwindled overtime and essentially she is kinda "bored" of you as she has seen enough of you. She is kinda done with you and wants to try something new, which is why she is talking to OM and doing all the nonsense. Try doing GAL (gym and stuff) and very limited communications with her and see how it slightly invokes interest in her (although it is temporary) I can tell you for sure the chances of this divorce going through is 99%. But if you keep lingering to her thoughts in the future, you will eventually get depressed and you will not do any justice for yourself. So I suggest suck it up and start moving on! There is nothing left for you in this relationship. And a word of advice since we both are from similar culture, DO NOT give a DAMN to what society things or what Others think. You do what you feel is moral, integral and gives you the happiness you want. You are the one you should be focusing on. Everything else is secondary.
Give the divorce she wants and LET HER GO. If she wants you back she will come back to you, If not move on be happy and do what you need to progress in your life and in your career.
Ready2Change - "I'd love to see them both when I'm in town in an upbeat way, and not reference my W." - perfect -- I am not sure if I agree with you 100% on this. Being in touch with mutual friends (especially the ones close to your Ex) will send the wrong signal. Doesn't it?
Hey Nutcrac,
I appreciate the advice, but I'm not ready to give up yet. Before all of this, I had a VERY good relationship with W, and I truly think that DBing can help get us through these issues.
I do think you hit the nail on the head with the remote work issue. I think her seeing me work mostly at our house has had a weird affect on her, sometimes it's almost like jealousy, sometimes resentment. Even though I always left the house throughout the day for various things, and would always be dressed nicely (I sometimes have to take video chat meetings at a moments notice), I could tell it bothered her a bit. I should mention that I've only been working remotely for 1 year. When I return home I'm planning to work from my office.
So, I'm not actually from Asia, but will be going on a trip to SE Asia to visit a friend that lives there. I've never been, and I'm really excited to go learn and explore.
I will absolutely take your advice, but it will remain in the context of improving our R. I'm a naturally optimistic person, and while this is certainly testing my positivity, I'm still hoping something can be rebuilt here.
I guess this is where experience matters. You should read my posts on some of the mistakes I did. I admire your confidence and optimism. I am also a very optimistic person and I also would hope u should get back to your wife. However, remember this - She sees none of these good qualities in you now. At this time she wants out. So she will take herself out hook or crook. And you are simply following her breadcrumbs being a nice-guy. You may use some delay tactics to prolong separation but that is all detrimental. It will affect your well being and ur future. Why would you or anyone for that matter want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you?Be a man and maintain your dignity.
If at all anything is under control it is only You. And she is not! So even if u become superman it doesn't matter to her as for her, this marraige is over and done. You should start thinking different. Take a deep introspective about you and the mistakes you did in past and overcome it. Think about this she has done 2 BDs. She is as fickle minded as she can ever be. Not ready to face the truth and wants an easy way out. By you letting her go, will create that awareness in her on what she wants to choose in the future after a long time of radio silence. She needs to go put in the "grass is greener on the other side" world and make mistakes. Until then she won't prefer you.
Let's assume for a fact that there will be a miracle and she will come back with apology and start living with you from Day after tomorrow. What is the guarantee that there wont be a BD3? Do you trust her now? If at all you guys were meant to be together, she will come back at which time who knows whether you will be ready to accept her or not?
I think your right about needing some radio silence for a bit. I've been pretty good about only responding to questions directly, and using other DBing technique in our very sparse communication (text message only) over the last 1.5 weeks. W's been initiating all contact, sending nice messages along with pictures of our dog, and actually sent a picture of herself today.
If W did express interest in working things out, that's all I'd take it as. I don't want to jump back into what we had before, because clearly that didn't work. I would only be willing to work on R if she took it seriously. Until then, I'm moving forward and becoming a better person every day.
Just wanted to give an update.
W has been continuously sending me pics of our dog with a sweet message. Usually 1 a day. Most of these I don't respond to. The other day W went on a "girls weekend" skiing and sent me a pic of her and her friends from there. Since I'm out of town I didn't know about this until afterwards. My only reply was "glad you had a good weekend." I still don't completely understand why she's sending these, but I'm trying not to read into it at all.
I'm keeping up with DBing, but it isn't getting any easier, and nothing really feels like it's changing. Staying the course with all my good habits and GAL, but of course my wife has no idea about any of these improvements. I've dropped ~12 lbs since I left home, and I was working out regularly there. Changing my diet and doing HIT has made a big difference.
I reconnected with an old friend and roommate who split from her husband not too long ago. We didn't realize that we were both going through this at the same time, and we talked for hours last night. It felt really good to speak honestly with someone that could actually understand this pain, and it felt good to share some of the things I've learned and potentially help her too.
She is throwing as many breadcrumbs as possible towards you to expect a reaction out of you. Let her enjoy and do all the fun things she wants to. You maintain your self respect and reach out to her only if needed.
Nothing changes as quick as you want it to. Don't worry about her seeing your improvements, you can't control it and even if you could strut around her like a peacock she wont believe it.
The skiing picture seems like she wants you to think no one else is in the picture. But like Nutcrac said, dont settle for breadcrumbs, there is steak when you decide you're ready.
I reconnected with an old friend and roommate who split from her husband not too long ago. We didn't realize that we were both going through this at the same time, and we talked for hours last night. It felt really good to speak honestly with someone that could actually understand this pain, and it felt good to share some of the things I've learned and potentially help her too.
Oh Jamine, please be careful.
There are too many red flags here.
1. Old friend and roommate. Have a shared history.
2. She split from her H recently.
3. You both are going through relationship problems.
4. It felt good, so you will desire another connection.
You both are ripe for a rebound relationship. Do you know how many relationships begin with the original intention being that they are helping each other go through their pain? My next question is how did you reconnect? Did she contact you by phone of social media? If she did.......then run!
Other than being vulnerable to this old roommate, I think you are doing very well. And, don't misunderstand me about your old friend. Even if this was entirely innocent on her part, you both are vulnerable. So, please be careful. (hugs)
I am jealous of your weight loss! It's so unfair how you guys can lose weight faster than the gals.
Yeah, you're right. I don't think my old roommate has any sort of intentions, but she been messaging me a lot (social media). It is really nice to talk, and share about our situations, but the happiness is very fleeting. I know I'm vulnerable and probably not in the right place for that. I also miss W more than ever.
I actually got a message from W today, hadn't heard from her since Thursday. She says she wants to talk, that nothing has changed on her end, but the time apart has been good for her. She wants to "check in and see how things are going". I was busy at the time, so replied 3 hours later "sure, when is a good time?".
We haven't talked on the phone since I left, and I have no idea what to expect. I know the game plan...validate, stand my ground, stay upbeat, but not too excited. I'm just hoping there isn't another BD...
Well, W called and we talked. She told me she's been feeling very good having space to herself , and she still wants to move towards D.
She asked me what my plan was when I get back from Asia, and I told her that I was going to live in my own house and take my time to figure that out. She didn't like this, and almost goaded me into an argument, but I stayed even keeled. She's worried that there will be "drama" if we live together too long - she thinks I should move by the end of May, and said even that long might be too long for her and she might rent an apt to herself. I told her that's fine if that's what she wants to do.
W also said she's going to "start looking into the legal stuff" when I'm in Asia. It feels like an empty promise, but who knows. She asked if I was feeling good about myself, and I told her hell yes. I feel great about myself, but I miss and want to be in my own home.
She wants to pick me up from the airport when I go home in 1.5 weeks. I'll only be there 5 days, but I'm ready to be busy, mysterious, confident, and attractive. This phone call wasn't exactly good, but I proved to myself that I can handle talking to her. I don't quite feel hope yet, but who knows...
And W's already sent a long winded text. She apologized for "freaking out" and said she's going to look into staying somewhere so I can have the house in may, and wants to set a goal for me to move out as memorial day. She also said that she wants to help each other transition after that...not really sure what that means.
I haven't replied to this yet. Going to take some time to think about it.
Why is she setting your goals ?
She isn't. She tried to on the phone today, and I shut her down. I still haven't acknowledged the text message. I may just ignore it.
Why is she setting your goals ?
I was about to ask the same question.
Just to clarify, that was W's message to me after trying to do something similar on the phone. I outright rejected her telling me what to do on the phone today, and haven't responded to or acknowledged that message.
The more that I read her last message, the more I realized that she didn't actually listen to me during our phone call. I feel like she thinks I'm just going to continue to be a pushover, she even mentioned "co-parenting" our dog if I stay in the area after D. I may stay in the area for a month or two in an apartment, but definitely not for a while.
How should I deal with this? I want to message her back telling her that she didn't listen to me, and these aren't her decisions to make, but I feel like that's not DBing... should I just continue to ignore the message, or should I tell her that I don't feel she was really listening to me in our last conversation, and maybe we should have a redo?
You say things simply, succinctly, and in a confident tone of voice:
"W, I will be staying in the home."
Don't discuss her not listening, how it's not her choice to make. She'll figure that part out on her own.
I just got an email from W, she's looking at apartments now for when I come back home and wants to know if I'll help with that financially. She also told me now that "5 weeks is too long" referring to initial memorial day move out assumption, and that "3 weeks would be better".
I replied that I did not agree to any dates to move, and that I need more time to think about this.
And...she's already emailed me back. She says that she knows exactly how things will be when I move back in, and that it isn't healthy for us to coexist in a house together.
We haven't even gotten halfway through our "trial separation" and she's rushing every step. How do I reply to this?
And...she's already emailed me back. She says that she knows exactly how things will be when I move back in, and that it isn't healthy for us to coexist in a house together.
We haven't even gotten halfway through our "trial separation" and she's rushing every step. How do I reply to this?
H:"W, I agree. The way we have been interacting in not healthy for us. I am sorry. I wish things were different"
Thanks for the reply. I think I got caught in between validating, standing my ground, and my emotions, but your reply helped me realign - I replied with almost your exact words.
Thanks for the reply. I think I got caught in between validating, standing my ground, and my emotions, but your reply helped me realign - I replied with almost your exact words.
What was your reply?
"W, I agree. The way we have been interacting is not healthy for either of us. I wish things were different"
"W, I agree. The way we have been interacting is not healthy for either of us. I wish things were different"
Perfect. That is better.
It is even better if she is not expecting that response from you.
W definitely isn't expecting that! I can guarantee she expected me to try to start a relationship talk, and potentially try to argue her logic.
Heard back after that message. W says she loves me and doesn't want to hurt me, and that's why she won't live in the house with me once I'm back.
I didn't expect this, and I kind of feel like it's a nail in the coffin. How do I come back from this? I want to keep hope, but this was hard to hear.
Thanks, Ready2Change. I'm not going to reply to that one, I have no idea what I'd say anyway.
W says she loves me and doesn't want to hurt me,
This is a very, very typical response when the WW feels pressure lifted. The minute her H agrees to her wishes, she starts saying this type of mush. It means absolutely nothing!
I suggest you let her have the dog. It's not a child, and co-parenting pets just cause opportunities for more hurt.
Brace yourself for her to act like your BFF. It's just a WW's reaction, nothing more. She loves the dog more than you, so don't be tied to her with a pet.
It's difficult, but this is part of it. She is going to take this time & space, whether you agree and accept it or not. I suggest you do nothing to slow her down. I can't remember at the moment if she works, but apparently, she expects financial support from you. Do what the law states, and don't give more than that.....trying to soften her. She'll take as much as she can get. Be smart.
Sandi,
Thanks for the reply. I'm actually going to keep the dog in the case that we do get divorced, I made that a requirement and she agreed. She's just being ridiculous with the co-parenting comment.
I won't try to slow her down anymore. She does work, and does very well - she makes quite a bit more than I do, and I'm doing fine. We moved to our current location for her career when she finished her doctorate, which I supported her through. She then supported me through some additional school, which led to my new career (started in a new industry last year).
All of this has brought up so much emotion, but I haven't taken any steps backwards with my DBing...it's just getting harder each day.
Just wanted to post an update.
W texted me yesterday twice, one I didn't respond to. The next just asked how I was doing. I answered very plainly, and she said "good, just checking in :)".
I'm feeling better about myself...most of the time. Nights are the hardest and when I miss her most. I'm considering taking off my wedding ring, getting used to not wearing it before I go back home next week. I know W is not wearing hers, and I think she'd be surprised to see me not wearing mine.
I'm considering taking off my wedding ring, getting used to not wearing it before I go back home next week. I know W is not wearing hers, and I think she'd be surprised to see me not wearing mine.
Do things because they are what YOU want, don't do them to elicit a reaction from her.
Do things because they are what YOU want, don't do them to elicit a reaction from her.
Yup, good advice. I need to turn this into my mantra.
I had a great weekend. Went to a music festival and got to see many amazing shows. Great times with friends and family, and I really GALed it up. There were even times I wasn't thinking about my marriage!
I didn't wear my wedding ring all weekend, and I'm still not. It feels weird, but I'm just trying it out. W went to a concert out of town that we were supposed to go to together, and I have no idea who she brought. Probably just a girlfriend, but I can't get it out of my head.
I go back home on Thursday. 15 lbs lighter, stronger, and definitely tougher, but I can't help but be nervous about seeing W.
Jamine, why did you take your ring off?
I took it off because I wanted to feel what it was like. Kind of ritualistic, letting go...but I don't think it's right yet. It feels like a piece of me is missing.
Yeah I've felt naked without it for 3 months. I've put it back on for a few days here and there, but decided to leave it off.
Quick update here. Minimal contact with W since I've last posted, all initiated by her. She left town this past weekend for a show we were supposed to go to together. I ended up at a music festival seeing way more of our favorite bands - definitely GAL.
W put a hotel on my credit card and transferred me the money, she texted me to tell me about it...I have no idea why she wouldn't just put it on her own card. I'm assuming she went w/ a girlfriend, and this was potentially some kind of test? I don't want to read into it, but i'm pretty sure this was intentional. She never uses my card for anything (only got her one for the perks), and has her own credit cards.
So I fly back home in 2 days. Still nervous, but feeling like a much more confident me. I'm really curious if anyone has advice about how to deal with physical contact. I know that I shouldn't initiate at all, but if she initiates physical contact - i.e. holding hands or more, how do I handle this? I've been reading here that I shouldn't embrace too much if we hug, and treat that as if it were an acquaintance, which I can handle. I'm sure if she stays at the house that we'll end up having at least a small amount of time together, watching a show or movie. Is this okay, and is more casual physical contact okay or even good, i.e. resting hands, arms on each other, or should I be keeping my distance - sitting farther apart or on a different couch? I really want to be prepared so that I can do this naturally when we're together.
Maybe her CC is maxed out?
Maybe her CC is maxed out?
I don't believe this is possible, and if it is, I've got much bigger problems.
So I fly back home in 2 days. Still nervous, but feeling like a much more confident me.
Get a new hairstyle. Be in new stylish clothes. Smell different. Be different.
read this:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2057372#Post2057372Re-read your thread.
I'm really curious if anyone has advice about how to deal with physical contact. I know that I shouldn't initiate at all, but if she initiates physical contact - i.e. holding hands or more, how do I handle this? I've been reading here that I shouldn't embrace too much if we hug, and treat that as if it were an acquaintance, which I can handle.
Let her initiate. Do less that her. IE let her into your space. Do not go into her personal space. IF she comes in for a kiss, offer your cheek.
I'm sure if she stays at the house that we'll end up having at least a small amount of time together, watching a show or movie.
I would be busy taking care of things. Leave the house to catch up with a friend or two.
Is this okay, and is more casual physical contact okay or even good, i.e. resting hands, arms on each other, or should I be keeping my distance - sitting farther apart or on a different couch? I really want to be prepared so that I can do this naturally when we're together.
Do not overthink this.
be this guy:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2057224MOST IMPORTANT:
Always leave first. Always end conversations first.
I know that I should be ignoring W's texts, but I really really like getting them.
It is not about ignoring the text. It is about how you respond. Steve's advise above is dead on. Read it again.
You are not busy enough. Focus on doing things that you enjoy. Things that you want to do. Things that you need to do. Get out of your head. Be in the moment.
Next time W text about the dog:
H:"W, thanks for sharing. I plan on taking him to the park when I get back."
Take the dog to the park. (Multiple times a day). Do not invite W. If she asks to go, say yes.
Thanks for the advice, R2C. Getting a haircut today, and maybe I'll go shopping for some new clothes before I head back home.
I'll definitely be staying busy for the 5 days that I'm home - no idea if she'll be around to notice, but I'll be out regardless. Planning to meet up with a buddy or two over the weekend, and take the dog out for hikes a lot. Feeling so much better about myself since this process began; if W opens her eyes she'll see a different person.
So, I'm back home. Flights got all messed up yesterday, so it was a very long trip. W said she wanted to pick me up from the airport, but when my arrival got severely delayed I told her not to worry about it and got an Uber.
It's weird. W left me the MBR without me asking, and just yelled "hi" from the guest room when I came in. This morning, she barely talked as we both got ready. I took the dog on a walk in the morning, and when I got back in she said, "can we talk about logistics tonight?". I said I have plans (just a workout, but didn't tell her that), but I'll see. She didn't look me in the eye, really look at me at all, or ask me any questions about my month long trip or travel back. I have to admit I look really good right now with all of my healthy eating and consistent work outs, but she literally does not see me.
I got an email from her a few hours later asking if I'd have dinner to "talk about everything moving forward". I was planning to be home anyway at the time she proposed, so I said yes. I'm going in expecting the worst, but I will only validate and state my boundaries. I'll control my emotions, and be confident and attractive.
I'm in a much better place mentally than I was before I left home, but it's still hard. She really isn't my W anymore. I signed up for a woodworking class tomorrow (totally out of my element), and I'll be meeting up with a friend that I haven't seen in a few months afterwards. I'll probably take the dog on a hike Sunday, if not Saturday too. I want to do A LOT this week, but I also have to prepare for my SE Asia trip - I leave on Thurs...
Had the conversation with W tonight. It was...interesting. Before I'd left town, we'd decided to split everything 50/50, and now she's trying to go back on that...essentially having the same conversation again. We'd also decided we would see a mediator, but she made an appt with a lawyer ("it's a free consultation!").
W makes a lot of money, more than I do, but I supported her during her doctorate, and then left my job to move across the country for hers. Her position was also delayed for 2 months after we first arrived (and were completely broke), so instead of finding a job that I wanted, I worked a really crappy one while she didn't work at all.
Now W's trying to throw it in my face and say she should get more equity in our house, more of our savings, etc. I didn't budge, I validated when I was given any opportunity to do so, but I stood my ground on everything. I didn't show emotion except for smiles, and maybe a tiny bit of frustration (it was really hard!). It definitely got to her...she got angry, accusing, etc.
W also is now trying to give me a date to leave our house. Two weeks ago we'd talked on the phone, and she tried to set goals for me to leave. At the time, I told her that she doesn't set goals for me anymore. She repeated it a few times, but I never agreed to it. Tonight she was convinced that I had agreed, until I reminded her about that statement, "you don't set goals for me anymore" and I think she actually remembered. It didn't really matter though, she got very frustrated and said some things, referring to our marriage as "platonic", and I attempted to validate as much as possible again. When she started yelling I told her "if you want to have a conversation, I'm happy to, but if you talk to me like this I'm leaving." It took a few tries, but she did eventually (kinda) calm down.
She reserved an airbnb (insanely expensive) in town for 5 weeks, and is mad at how expensive it is. I leave for my 2.5 week trip on Thurs, and she's planning to live there in the meantime. She does not want to move back into the house if I'm here, and insinuated that this was somehow all my fault because I won't move. I didn't have any of it, but never got mad, never raised my voice, didn't get upset or emotional.
Then a weird thing happened, we didn't talk for a few minutes, and I was doing some stuff in the kitchen. W walked in and asked if she could hug me, and I said she could. We hugged, and I disengaged first. She said she was sorry and that this was really hard. Then she said she was going to go read and went into the guest bedroom.
I have no idea what to think. I know that I need to build respect, but this all feels so counter-intuitive...I almost feel like I'm pushing her towards D, since she will be buying me out of the house. I do feel good about standing my ground and being confident, but I still feel like she just doesn't even see me. We're only going to live together for 5 more days...this is so weird.
Should I push back on the lawyer meeting? I wouldn't be doing it to delay D, it's just that we'd agreed on a mediator, and I feel like this person is just going to try to sell her, and then the whole process is going to get way more costly for both of us.
She just walked in and handed me a petition for divorce. It's filled out and she asked me to sign. I said I need time to think. This is happening way too quickly.
Aren't they're indecisive feelings amazing and conflictive? Going from platonic to "can I have a hug, this is really hard" Now D papers. Her way of hugging you was probably her way of saying good bye right before serving you the D petition.
Rightfully so, good for you, don't let her set goals for you. Im going to use that one! And rightfully so, take all the time you need to decide to sign D papers. Whether they be for logical reasons, financial reasons, or emotional reasons, and whether you want to consult with a L.
So, last night was rough, and I'm still feeling confused this morning.
How do I continue to DB?
I'm supposed to go on this Asia trip next week, but my previous time away was THE WRONG thing to do for my marriage. If I back out on this trip, I'm not only missing a trip of a lifetime, but I'll also look weak. When I get back, W will be out of the house, and I doubt she'll be coming around to see me much.
What do I do about this petition for D? I'm not supposed to stand in her way, but I really feel like this is too soon to be signing anything. My state only has a 90 day waiting period once the petition is filed. This is all so overwhelming, and I have no idea how to proceed.
Hi Jamine,
Your W is all over the place. Mediator, lawyer, hands your the D papers herself. Divorce, kick you out, hug. You have to stop worrying about her.
I know you feel like it's crucial you skip the trip and win her back with some decisive action. But even you said she doesn't see you, so why would this be different?
Take her at her word on this divorce, respect her choice. Then step back while she flounders, work on yourself with 180s and GAL. When she stops flipping we will see what she wants. But dont change plans over her. Be a strong man, the best man you can be. Worry about yourself.
Take the trip.
Do not sign the paper work. Review it. Figure out if things are split equal. This is where a Lawyer can give you legal advise. Do not drag your feet on this.
So, the paperwork has nothing to do with financials. It's just the "petition for divorce" which starts the legal process in my state (in the US). This begins the 3 month waiting period before a D can happen. All of the financial stuff comes later after we mediate or the lawyers come into play. I do not plan to sign until I've reviewed them thoroughly.
I'm going to take the trip. Btw, I GALed the hell outta today. Took my dog on a long hike, went to a woodworking class (something that is totally out of my element), and hung out with a good friend that was amazingly supportive. D papers were gone from where W left them when I got home. I looked all over the place and could not find them. W was asleep when I got home, but I feel like I should ask where they are - I only have 20 days to review, and would like to read them before anything happens.
Please start a new thread and link your two threads together. Thanks!
Don't go searching for the divorce papers. Your W can't present them, then hide them, the pop up in court and say you saw them once for 20 minutes. There's no rush, you would need time to review with your lawyer anyways.
I have a feeling that you are actually looking for them for another reason.