A familiar story with questions NINE

#8 http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2831261#Post2831261

Continuing our last discussion:

You are right, some girls are easier than others. My W has never had an orgasm through intercourse. And due to the "pressure" she has trouble through other modes of stimulation. Mechanical means is so intense that it is able to get through all of that.

One thing that has continually come up in this DB process and in my sitch is that I believe that one thing that attracted my W and I together was Mutual Emotional Unavailability.

I had several options at the time that my wife and I took a friendship intimate and one girl was really pursuing me hard. This drove me away.
My W just enjoyed my company and the only way that I knew she liked me was when I heard about the stories she told friends when she was out with the girls. I also didn't require much emotionally from her. I knew that she didn't share her feelings which was a blessing and a curse. I should have been more concerned.

Two sick puppies? Perhaps.

Upon initial BD and discovery of her EA I was ready to fix things and get all cuddly etc. She wasn't there. Which really hurt because I had read the dialogs she had had with OM.

So today.

After our Monday morning R talk and me saying that I didn't intend to stay in a sexless marriage indefinitely. Long day and bible study I come home just before bedtime. We catch up and all is pleasant like nothing ever happened. W asked if she could use my car for carpool in the morning because the usual SUV was out of gas. I agreed and went to bed. In the morning I get up as usual and make us both coffee. I stay in my MBR as W gets ready for her day.
Usually, unless she has business to discuss she just yells up the stairs that she is leaving and to have a good day.

I have to admit that this morning I was contemplating saying something to the effect that "I guess we need to discuss how this is going to work." In new fashion, I decided not to.

So W comes up and in a sweeter than normal voice thanks me for the use of my car and compliments the ride. Says that she is going and appears to be temp taking me. I act normal.

What does this all mean? Who knows? At least I fell like I was heard and she may have thought about things. Most of the time I feel like stuff either hits her as good or bad and she just gets busy with tasks without spending any time contemplating much.

GOOD!

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One thing that has continually come up in this DB process and in my sitch is that I believe that one thing that attracted my W and I together was Mutual Emotional Unavailability.

Well, that's fine in a dating relationship. It is also the thing to do when a LBS is detaching from a wayward spouse. However, in a healthy MR, both spouses should have a warm, loving, intimate, emotional connection. Some H's may feel connected by having sex, whereas, some W's need to feel emotionally connected in order to desire a sexual relationship. For the W, sex is the expression of her emotional connection to her H.

Once there has been a commitment to work on the MR, you stop detaching and start building an emotional connection with your spouse. I'm not talking about becoming emotionally dependent. I'm not implying you smother her. I'm talking about you being available for your spouse's emotional needs. If you are unavailable to your W's emotional needs, then she is not going to feel intimately connected to you. Maybe.....just maybe, that's why she didn't feel that she got more from having sex. A wife wants to feel that emotional connection when making love with her H.

I'm not suggesting you are in the piecing stage, b/c you aren't, IMHO. However, I want you to understand that when you are reconciling and preparing to enter into the piecing stage, you should not intentionally be emotionally unavailable to your spouse. In order to piece the MR back to a healthy place, you have to get back that emotional connection to each other. You go from detaching to connecting.

When you feel the time is right, I encourage you to consider talking to your W and ask her if she can commit to working on the MR. If she wants to know what that includes, then that's the time to express what you need from her, in order to piece the M back together. If she won't agree and/or refuses to commit, then end the conversation.

I know it's frustrating having a spouse who won't talk, but don't try to speak for her. You do a lot of mind reading, which is probably b/c she won't communicate. (I have a spouse who doesn't talk, so I understand.)

Originally Posted by RR17

So today.

After our Monday morning R talk and me saying that I didn't intend to stay in a sexless marriage indefinitely. Long day and bible study I come home just before bedtime. We catch up and all is pleasant like nothing ever happened. W asked if she could use my car for carpool in the morning because the usual SUV was out of gas. I agreed and went to bed. In the morning I get up as usual and make us both coffee. I stay in my MBR as W gets ready for her day.
Usually, unless she has business to discuss she just yells up the stairs that she is leaving and to have a good day.

I have to admit that this morning I was contemplating saying something to the effect that "I guess we need to discuss how this is going to work." In new fashion, I decided not to.

So W comes up and in a sweeter than normal voice thanks me for the use of my car and compliments the ride. Says that she is going and appears to be temp taking me. I act normal.

What does this all mean? Who knows? At least I fell like I was heard and she may have thought about things. Most of the time I feel like stuff either hits her as good or bad and she just gets busy with tasks without spending any time contemplating much.

RR I think you are right, this is a temp-check. I know early on in my sitch, anytime I expressed and/or enforced a boundary. Or I got really good at detaching, my W would do things like this. Come up and say hi or goodbye and give me a kiss. Or start a discussion about something that was planning for the future. I think she started to think about what she was potentially losing and, at least, temporarily start doing and saying things to try to "fix" things.

You gave a boundary (no SSM), she sees that as you starting to look at moving on. She is going to do things to try to give you hope.

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You gave a boundary (no SSM), she sees that as you starting to look at moving on. She is going to do things to try to give you hope.

BINGO! She wants to see how serious I am. How things are going to be. I think she also wants to let me know that she heard what I said.
I already let her know that I not pouting.

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Well, that's fine in a dating relationship. It is also the thing to do when a LBS is detaching from a wayward spouse. However, in a healthy MR, both spouses should have a warm, loving, intimate, emotional connection. Some H's may feel connected by having sex, whereas, some W's need to feel emotionally connected in order to desire a sexual relationship. For the W, sex is the expression of her emotional connection to her H.

I'm not suggesting you are in the piecing stage, b/c you aren't, IMHO. However, I want you to understand that when you are reconciling and preparing to enter into the piecing stage, you should not intentionally be emotionally unavailable to your spouse. In order to piece the MR back to a healthy place, you have to get back that emotional connection to each other. You go from detaching to connecting.

I realize this. Especially after yesterday. But this is a dance that we have done for over two decades. It's what W is comfortable with because it's familiar. I believe she fears a change will forfeit her control. IMO

Time will tell.

So explain something to me. You said you gave no SSM as a boundary. Just how do you plan to enforce it? It sounds more like an ultimatum, IMHO. An ultimatum is where you leave no options for the other person. They either do what you want or you're gone. I'm not saying you are wrong to give an ultimatum, I'm just saying I don't think it is a boundary. But you can enlighten me.

Originally Posted by sandi2

So explain something to me. You said you gave no SSM as a boundary. Just how do you plan to enforce it? It sounds more like an ultimatum, IMHO. An ultimatum is where you leave no options for the other person. They either do what you want or you're gone. I'm not saying you are wrong to give an ultimatum, I'm just saying I don't think it is a boundary. But you can enlighten me.

As usual, sandi is spot on. That was my bad, sandi. I called it a boundary. I agree it is an ultimatum.

I am going to disagree. According to what he posted he set a boundary.

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So explain something to me. You said you gave no SSM as a boundary. Just how do you plan to enforce it? It sounds more like an ultimatum, IMHO. An ultimatum is where you leave no options for the other person. They either do what you want or you're gone. I'm not saying you are wrong to give an ultimatum, I'm just saying I don't think it is a boundary. But you can enlighten me.

Please, not this again. Call it whatever you like.

It's an "If then" statement.

If it really matters, enlighten me. please.

For the record, my words "I don't want to remain in a sexless marriage"

Call it what you like. Conventional wisdom says that an ultimatum is a boundary.

I don't care.

I think sandi is speaking in terms of a enforcement. Clarity in boundaries, and therefore ultimatum, is important.

IF THEN is fine, but make sure it is timebound, enforceable and that you are willing to following through.

If by FALL of 2019 our marriage is a SSM then:

I will talk to a lawyer, work out a separation agreement, and file for D.

While you gave the boundary, unless I misread it, it came out as a IF statement with no then. Essentially you said you don't want to remain in a SSM. That is completely fair. However, what follows that?

What follows? Whatever I want.

Not defining my consequences was completely intentional.

Hey guys, I told you what I was going to do before I did it.

Although this is not a legal agreement. It's my MR. This is what I do for a living. I negotiate.

From a legal standpoint. You could call it a "LOT" or Letter of intent.

Semantics are really not important.

Fair enough, RR. So what is it you want to do? Say a month from now nothing has changed?

lol, Steve, in the event that this is not a logistic trap. For one, I'm not going to sit around and wait a month.

I laid it all out in my last thread. Down to this.

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I will tell her that I don't intend to stay in a sexless marriage forever.
I don't want it to be a threatening ultimatum, but I will give it until the end of the year. I'm not sure if I will offer this deadline up without her asking. Then I will STFU. I will listen and validate.

IMHO, a Boundry opens the door to conversation. An Ultimatum leaves no room for conversation and has dire and definite consequences. Something I did not provide, nor did I intend to.

I don't mean to be short, and I hope you know that I always appreciate your comments and input Steve, this all was simply planned and discussed in the last thread. Other than STFU, I have stuck to the plan. BTW, I see the R conversation as a positive.

Well done RR. I missed the one year thing. As you know I had a hard deadline myself in my sitch. I did not tell her about it. WWs have a way of waiting until the last minute and then going into manipulation mode. I wasn't going to let her do that. So I would not tell her about the deadline.

Hey, RR, you are under stress. You are entitled to some shortness. Especially when a bonehead like me comes along and forgets details you already gave! LOL Yes, think the R talk was a positive. However, any other reading this should not take that to mean that it would be a positive in their sitch. Your sitch is unique in this regard.

The way I see it, there are always rules and there are exceptions.

The same rules of DB don't apply throughout all these processes. You don't do LRT during reconciliation.

Here is one example of why I think semantics get in the way. IMO, someone could say that you had a "covert contract" when you gave your W a year and didn't tell her. But, Covert Contracts are bad? I don't see it that way.
Relationships are complicated. Trying to oversimplify them with somatic terms sometimes misses important points.

What am I going to do in a month? Well, I'm going to follow what my "Divorce Remedy" book told me to do. Evaluate and adjust. In the meantime, I'm going to work my plan to let her digest my words. At some point, I plan to execute a "soft initiation". This is to make it easy, as initiation, especially at this juncture, may be beyond her ability.

If rejected. I will pull back. Reevaluate and adjust. At some point, I may get fed up and pull the plug.

Why did I tell her that I didn't want to stay in a no sex marriage? Because I don't. lol

Why didn't I give her a definite deadline? Because I didn't want to stop the conversation. Hope this helps others.

You can bet your bottom dollar she is going to test you.

Originally Posted by RR17

Here is one example of why I think semantics get in the way. IMO, someone could say that you had a "covert contract" when you gave your W a year and didn't tell her. But, Covert Contracts are bad? I don't see it that way.

I don't think what you gave her was a covert contract. A covert contract is when you think: "If I do X, then I expect her to do Y." Nice Guys do this all the time, and the pout and go passive-aggressive when their Y expectation is not met.

What you did was make a pronouncement: "I will not remain in a SSM." And then you set a timeline for YOUR action. This is a good thing. When I spoke to an anti-DB expert early in my sitch she said that you should be a time limit on how long you will wait for her to fully commit back to the marriage before you go file for D. Her suggestion was at least a year. That is why I had the following principle I was adhering to: "If she isn't fully committed back to the marriage by the anniverary of BD, then I will file for D."

No one expects you to put up with your current sitch forever. Even your W deep down doesn't expect that. She might be comfortable in it but logically she knows that your current arrangement is not sustainable forever. You've put up with a ton, RR. I feel for you man, and I support you in whatever you decide from this point forward.

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I don't think what you gave her was a covert contract. A covert contract is when you think: "If I do X, then I expect her to do Y." Nice Guys do this all the time, and the pout and go passive-aggressive when their Y expectation is not met.

Steve, I was referring to your sitch, not mine. And only for a relevant example. "If I do X, then I expect her to do Y." is a contract. When you don't tell the other party it becomes covert.

Only when you expect some action FROM YOUR SPOUSE. In our cases (one year), I guess you could argue it is covert, but isn't a covert contract because I am only expecting action from myself.

No, it is Covert because you didn't tell the other person. What your talking about is a unilateral contract. Another word for Covert Contract is "SECRET AGREEMENT".

You make a deal, only you don't tell the other person about the deal.

Ok, I think this is semantics. Covert Contract based on NGS is what I said it was. "If I do X, then I expect wife to do Y."

Originally Posted by RR17

No, it is Covert because you didn't tell the other person. What your talking about is a unilateral contract. Another word for Covert Contract is "SECRET AGREEMENT".

You make a deal, only you don't tell the other person about the deal.

The important distinction in a covert contract is that it is based on the assumption that the other party will inherently know and understand the terms of the unsaid contract. So an example of that would be: "I'll clean the house and my W will be so impressed that she will want to have sex with me tonight." You feel like you don't need to say what the terms are, because she will inherently know that if you clean the house you deserve to be rewarded with sex. So then when she doesn't want to have sex you get upset, because you feel she's not meeting her end of the bargain. So you pout and mope and then explode over something completely unrelated, like she leaves a dirty towel on the floor. You let anger and resentment build over it. This is distinctly different than saying "I'm going to give it a year and then pursue D myself if nothing changes" because in this case you are not assuming that things will change, and you are not doing something as a "favor" for her expecting something in return.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse but covert contracts are a huge problem with many people that find themselves here and it's important that anyone reading here grasps what they are and why they are an issue. Because when you identify it as a fault then it's actually not hard to do a 180 on it.

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The important distinction in a covert contract is that it is based on the assumption that the other party will inherently know and understand the terms of the unsaid contract. So an example of that would be: "I'll clean the house and my W will be so impressed that she will want to have sex with me tonight." You feel like you don't need to say what the terms are, because she will inherently know that if you clean the house you deserve to be rewarded with sex

Exactly!

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So then when she doesn't want to have sex you get upset, because you feel she's not meeting her end of the bargain. So you pout and mope and then explode over something completely unrelated, like she leaves a dirty towel on the floor. You let anger and resentment build over it.

IMO, this is the result of said covert contract and a different issue. Although a typical result.

CONTRACT=agreement.
COVERT=not openly acknowledged or displayed.

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This is distinctly different than saying "I'm going to give it a year and then pursue D myself if nothing changes" because in this case you are not assuming that things will change, and you are not doing something as a "favor" for her expecting something in return.

It's not necessary to involve a "favor". Besides, a favor is something that is done without expectation.
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but my understanding is that "He was going to give HER a year...". I may be wrong. If for argument's sake he was to give IT a year, IT meaning the marriage or sitch, then I agree it is not a covert contract.
The difference being that in the first scenario, W would be required "to perform" as part of the secret agreement.

I hope this helps someone.

Relationships are complicated. Communication is key. If you expect someone to keep their end of an agreement it is best that they know what the agreement is. Getting but hurt because they didn't keep their end of a deal, on a deal that they are unaware of is Relationship Abuse. IMO

Originally Posted by RR17

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The important distinction in a covert contract is that it is based on the assumption that the other party will inherently know and understand the terms of the unsaid contract. So an example of that would be: "I'll clean the house and my W will be so impressed that she will want to have sex with me tonight." You feel like you don't need to say what the terms are, because she will inherently know that if you clean the house you deserve to be rewarded with sex

Exactly!

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So then when she doesn't want to have sex you get upset, because you feel she's not meeting her end of the bargain. So you pout and mope and then explode over something completely unrelated, like she leaves a dirty towel on the floor. You let anger and resentment build over it.

IMO, this is the result of said covert contract and a different issue. Although a typical result.

CONTRACT=agreement.
COVERT=not openly acknowledged or displayed.

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This is distinctly different than saying "I'm going to give it a year and then pursue D myself if nothing changes" because in this case you are not assuming that things will change, and you are not doing something as a "favor" for her expecting something in return.

It's not necessary to involve a "favor". A favor is something that is done without expectation.
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but my understanding is that "He was going to give HER a year...". I may be wrong. If for argument's sake he was to give IT a year, IT meaning the marriage or sitch, then I agree it is not a covert contract.
The difference being that in the first scenario, W would be required "to perform" as part of the secret agreement.

I hope this helps someone.

Relationships are complicated. Communication is key. If you expect someone to keep their end of an agreement it is best that they know what the agreement is. Getting but hurt because they didn't keep their end of a deal, on a deal that they are unaware of is Relationship Abuse. IMO

Eh RR. The difference is still in that I am not expecting anything from her, just giving her some time to try to get her stuff together. I had my timeline for ME, and then backed off, gave her space, let her go and let her work through what she needed to work through. It is no different than if you've ever had a job and it there problems and you said "I will give it until next spring, and if it is still bad I will find another job."

The biggest difference is in whether I am trying to manipulate and control (cover contract), or if I am just sitting back, letting things unfold and then determining my OWN course of action. I was guilty of covert contracts all through our marriage leading up to BD. I do not consider my timeline on how long I would wait for her as part of that.

Steve, I'm now sorry that I used your sitch as the example. The point was that we all make covert contracts. If the condition was with yourself there is no need to disclose any agreement with a second party because it doesn't involve their performance.

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"I will give it until next spring, and if it is still bad I will find another job."

This is not a covert contract because there is no second party. IMO, it is a merely a personal deadline. It is only when there are 2 parties that it becomes an agreement, covert or otherwise.

Originally Posted by RR17

Steve, I'm now sorry that I used your sitch as the example. The point was that we all make covert contracts. If the condition was with yourself there is no need to disclose any agreement with a second party because it doesn't involve their performance.

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"I will give it until next spring, and if it is still bad I will find another job."

This is not a covert contract because there is no second party. IMO, it is a merely a personal deadline. It is only when there are 2 parties that it becomes an agreement, covert or otherwise.

While that's a fair point, we'll have to agree to disagree. A CC as defined in NMMNG is what AS and I have stated. While a private timeline for how long you will wait is secret, it's not the same thing. In fact in the case of a timeline you'd actually be more likely to be accused of trying to manipulate her by giving her your dropdead date than keeping it to yourself.

That's why I was advised to not share it by the anti D expert and why I would advise others to not share it either.

BTw, RR I think you're doing the right thing for your sitch. You've been very long-suffering. No one could blame you for finally deciding to move on.

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While that's a fair point, we'll have to agree to disagree. A CC as defined in NMMNG is what AS and I have stated. While a private timeline for how long you will wait is secret, it's not the same thing. In fact in the case of a timeline you'd actually be more likely to be accused of trying to manipulate her by giving her your dropdead date than keeping it to yourself.

That's why I was advised to not share it by the anti D expert and why I would advise others to not share it either.

Steve, my friend, I wonder if you are still reading this. AnotherStander and I are in agreement. Look again.

If you still don't believe me google Covert Contract. Please. I say this not to be right but I think you want to know.

As for your sitch? Again I wish I hadn't used it as an example because we have spent the last 20 posts debating it. I never meant to rehash the merits of your decision. I didn't. I added caveats and still, I have been misunderstood.

I wish you had taken the time to scan my last thread. I laid out my intended plan. I know reading all these sitchs gets draining. That's why I have chosen to try to go deep with only a few.

Thanks again.

No problem. I'll go back and read your last thread.

I�m sorry I�m not chiming in with more frequency RR. It�s summer here and I�m into environmental alerts that I�m responsible at work. You have had a lot of patience in your sitch man. I always ask you for more of that but it�s up to you in the end. It�s ok to get some pieces moving. You deserve to have a full life going RR.

All my respect as usual.

Thanks neffer.

All you've missed is debating semantics and questioning labels.

I'm in a good place and working my plan.

How are things going RR?

Things are going fine. Although not as fast as I prefer. W that never gets sick has been sick on and off for a month. She finally called the doc and got antibiotics.

So, for the most part, we have been enjoying our platonic existence. Not much room for these touch-charges. No fights. No ultimatums. One thing that has come up is it has turned up that we may very well have to move. More on this, this week.
At the beginning of the recession, we sold our home due to expected rezoning for schools. Without a destination, we moved into one of my client's rentals that was in the district. Recession hits and we ride it out in the rental. Come 2013 and the local market improves and I am hit with BD#1. Well, I'm not about to make a purchase with this person, not at that time. Just before BD#2 W says she wasn't sure if she wants to buy the place we are in. Okay, whatever.
Anyway, my client and landlord is ready to not be a landlord anymore. He was approached by an agent with a buyer. They are going to tour this week. I have the option to buy it as well.
Either way, this is going to force W to make some decisions. I'm amused.

So we spent the weekend doing some cleaning and I grilled and we watched the Super Bowl.
Also, we are doing this Keto diet together. Joint projects.

2 new points I want to journal here:

W and I having a discussion on finances when she brought up the incident where I spent money on things that I felt necessary without discussing with her. She stated that my actions were basically a big F-you to her. I responded that they were not intended that way. She stated that it felt that way. I responded that she was welcome to her own feelings but I wished she would also consider my intent.
I also pointed out that she had, in fact, hurt me without intent and that I was able to rationalize the difference. She said she never intended to do such a thing and I'm sure she thought that I must be referring to her past EA. I realized that that idea would escalate dissension so I immediately offer another example. I said, "I was hurt when you planned your vacations with our daughters, without me."
This has happened twice in the last several years. Last time about a year ago.
W just stopped and I could see the wheels turning. She didn't respond. I stopped talking.

I think this really resonated with her.

Later that evening after dinner we were in the car and she was telling some story about work. I grabbed her upper thigh. We are doing this Keto diet together. I said, "man' I can tell a big difference." I released. W never flinched. She said "really?". and went back to the story.

This is the longest touch-charge I have executed other than a hug or two many weeks ago.

Things have been blissful. Still no sex. She still seems to enjoy spending time with me. It's better than any contentious dynamic but far from optimal.

Today, I'm contemplating saying something about how I don't intend to stay in a sexless relationship. Perhaps ask her if she still feels like it is never going to happen.

Thoughts?

RR, what did y'all decide on the house?

I am not an expert on sexless M's but I would suggest a more positive approach. Instead of "Perhaps ask her if she still feels like it is never going to happen" maybe say something like "I've really been enjoying our relationship together recently and feel like restoring intimacy would be a great way to rebuild our bond, what do you think?" Maybe suggest a specialty therapist, I hate to say "sex therapist" because there are some negative connotations there.

Nothing on the home yet.

Knowing my wife, the more emotional I attach to sex the worse it will be received.

I hear what you're saying. But suggesting any kind of therapist is the equivalent to saying. "Let's go fix what is wrong with you." A big mistake IMO.
Besides, I don't think she really needs one. I think she is using this as a hold-back until she gets all she wants. I'm not sure she even knows what that is. The way back to a healthy intimate relationship is something I think she is waiting to happen. In the meantime, she likes the results in the other parts of the R.

Of course, this is just my opinion.

I've thought about just sending a text saying "I dreamt we had sex last night." I know it sounds lame and yes I picked "sex over "made love" intentionally for reasons explained above. Just to see the response.

It's a tough call. I've never gone without sex in my M (until after S) or in any relationship before or after the M, and I attribute a lot of that to asking for what I want. I can't remember which book they discuss that in, NMMNG maybe? But when I read it I just thought "yeah I've never had a problem with that!" Not that I'm pushy about it, I just make my desires clear and if it works out then great, if not I don't get all passive/aggressive about it but rather just talk about "why" and discuss other possible options or setting a different day. I don't just drop it like a bomb though, I'm always making sexy comments with my wife/girlfriend- telling them what I find sexy about them, talking about what I'd like to do right now even though I'm at work, asking them what they are thinking about, what I'd like to see them wearing, stuff like that. And sending pics back and forth. Right now on my phone I have... let me check... wow 684 not-safe-for-work pics of my girlfriend in a hidden folder. Why? Because we are always engaging in romantic, sexy discussions, especially when we're not around each other for a while. It keeps things spicy. I think the problem with getting stuck in a sexless situation is it becomes the "norm" and then it becomes very difficult to break out of that rut.

I wouldn't go the "dream" angle, sounds too passive to me. Just tell her what you want. If you want sex then tell her. If she says she's not ready then try not to act like a puppy dog that didn't get a treat for begging, just ask her what her issues are with it and what you can do to alleviate that. Pick the right time though, maybe over a nice dinner.

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I wouldn't go the "dream" angle, sounds too passive to me. Just tell her what you want. If you want sex then tell her. If she says she's not ready then try not to act like a puppy dog that didn't get a treat for begging, just ask her what her issues are with it and what you can do to alleviate that. Pick the right time though, maybe over a nice dinner.

AnotherStander, I know you follow a lot of threads. So it's hard to remember everyone sitch.

I've never had a problem with being direct, nor pouting about the outcome, and bac,k in my threads I shared the results of just telling her what I want.
Glad your R is hot and steamy. Sounds like you take the credit.

I've also explained that this is not about just getting my W in the sack.

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I've never had a problem with being direct, nor pouting about the outcome, and bac,k in my threads I shared the results of just telling her what I want.

Sounds like you took offense to me calling you out on that. Ask yourself why that offends you. You say you are direct but then you want to tell her you had a dream about having sex with her, which is very indirect and in fact not even true. So you want to lie to her to... what? What is it you're hoping to accomplish? You're going about it the wrong way.

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Glad your R is hot and steamy. Sounds like you take the credit. whistle

So you think I'm boasting? I'm just trying to help you friend. This is an area that you are struggling with and I've never had a problem with, but you can take or leave the advice, that's up to you.

You might look into Michele's "The Sex-Starved Marriage" book, it could probably help you with your sitch.

No offense. You read a lot into other's words. Like I said, if you read back you will understand why.

Again, it's not about the sex. Read back if you really want to help.

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Sounds like you took offense to me calling you out on that. Ask yourself why that offends you. You say you are direct but then you want to tell her you had a dream about having sex with her, which is very indirect and in fact not even true. So you want to lie to her to... what? What is it you're hoping to accomplish? You're going about it the wrong way.

No offense take. I was merely trying to correct your assumption. I want to be understood, not misunderstood. So no offense. In the event that you really want to know what I am doing. Allow me to explain.

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I've thought about just sending a text saying "I dreamt we had sex last night." I know it sounds lame and yes I picked "sex over "made love" intentionally for reasons explained above. Just to see the response.

First, I said I thought about it. Not that I did it or that I planned to do it. My gosh, slow down and try to understand buddy.
The thought behind it at the time was instead of a touch-charge that I would do the equivalent via text.
One thing you said did stand out. You are right, it is a lie and that's not my style. So I will not do that unless I do have that dream.
I brought it here to get feedback. That's why most of us bring stuff here before we do it.

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So you think I'm boasting? I'm just trying to help you friend. This is an area that you are struggling with and I've never had a problem with, but you can take or leave the advice, that's up to you.

Did you see the emoji at the end of my statement? I was teasing you. You seemed to feel the need to expand and I felt you deserved it. Just kidding. All in fun.

I hope this is taken the right way. I know you want to help and I appreciate it. But we must all try to understand we don't all suffer NGS. Sometimes questions or reading back is necessary to understand why we do or even consider doing what we do.

You both have your own rhythm. Let see when those paths overlap.

Any chance to get W into MC again? Do some tree shaking

Sorry for not joining as usual. Still into the summer here: lot of work.

Take care of your family and take care of yourself my friend.

Thanks, Nefer.

It can be frustrating when I feel misunderstood. Nobody likes to be miss-accused. Sometimes the shoe doesn't fit.

No, W hated MC. Too much communication. Remember the story about finding her journal?

I believe the problem is that so much is good in the relationship now. Obviously, this is my take. I also believe that if and when we end up in bed together, it will be because of my actions. Almost like 2 platonic friends that just happen to fall into bed together. No real romantic feelings. Not consciously, at least.
This is how it happened the 1st time for us 25 years ago.

Does my W need therapy? Probably, who knows? I think it has more to do with emotional availability than sex itself. For 19 years we engaged 6-9 times a month. I can't think of a time she didn't climax, usually more than once. Yes, I believe they were real. We've discussed it and there are times she went for a second or third and couldn't find it. If she were lying to get it over with she wouldn't say "It isn't there, you just go." TMI
This emotional availability is something I benefited from for years. I now see the problems with it and realize it has its price.

Happy VD all you DBers. Remember to not to act like it means anything to you. lol

How did you go with VD RR?

W suggested picking up a couple of ribeyes. She never was a big VD W. But I thought the initiative was a good sign.

I grilled and she did the green beans, no carbs, watched True Crime shows. lol

I complimented her weight loss this morning. She lifted her shirt and showed her flat tummy. Then went to work. She suggested going out for Sashimi tonight.

So things took a turn this morning. I broke all sorts of DBing rules.

So House is empty except for the two of us. I have made the second french press of coffee for the two of us. I decided it is prime to do what I have been talking about since December and try to initiate.

W gets this all hurt puppy dog face and says "I can't". Well, I hate these F-ing external locus type answers and I respond that "Don't you mean, I won't?" and I went into the whole "what do you have to lose?" "Aren't you happy about a lot of the change that has happened between us?" "What if both tried, just to see. What is the risk".
Well after several "I'm just not in a place...." BS She went on to say that she wasn't a "tryer".

The conversation went on for about 40 min and W looking for reasons to get angry (which I skillfully avoided) so that she could walk out of the uncomfortable conversation. Dismissive behavior is another sensitive point for me.
I asked where she thought this was going with her decisions. She said she never considered. I asked if she ever considered my position and where this leaves me? She said that she didn't spend all her time contemplating things the way I do. I responded that considering another person's perspective wasn't an extraordinary feat. Anyway.

I know, I know. DBers don't engage in talks about the future. I will have to cool off before I decide how to proceed. Not the best time to make rash decisions.

Anyway, I really admire your patience RR. Take it easy on you now, relax and detach if you can.

I know she�s not into it but...some IC for W should be extraordinary...what a stubborn girl!

Relax man. Be strong.

Hugs (((RR)))

Yea it's tough, I guess you have to just sit tight for now. I know you want change and you want it now but we rarely get it on our terms. Are you 100% sure your W is fully committed to you? Have you read 5 LL's? Are you working diligently to fill her love bucket?

Is your W ok with not having sex ever? Has she expressed interest in getting things going eventually?

R,

I don't blame you for trying. I kinda got the feel from the Valenttines Day post that you are clearly in the friend zone.

I think you have two choices. 1. Accept the relationship for what it is and have zero expectations that it will ever change or 2. Directly tell her what you need to continue this relationship and if she is unable give you what you need that you file for divorce and pursue it elsewhere.

These things rarely change without time and space. Too many walls have been constructed over the years.

Sorry for the setback.

Sorry to hear how things went R. Honestly.... I think your W has no internal motivation to �try� because she doesn�t fear losing you. If you truly are tired of living in limbo, I think you should tell her it is time she followed through with moving out. But if limbo is okay for now, increase your GAL activities and give her more space. (((HUGS)))

RR,

Wow, brother! You are an awesome and patience man. Your W don't deserve you at this point. I don't know all the things she had to endure during you'll marrige, but you deserve better from her.

IMO, you are your W friend, you are in her friend zone. Legally you are her husband, in reality your are her friend. She buys food for you'll to cook together, you'll go to the movies together, but she won't be intimate with you.

Most, men never get out of the friend zone, once placed there. The one's that do, have one of two things happen, either they happen to have a lucky night of sex with the friend, and the guy thinks that will change the mind of the women, which it rarely does, or they, tell their lady friend how they truly feel and detach themselves. This distance gives the lady friend a chance to realize just how special this man is.

Your W, has already experienced sex with you, so I put all your chances in the second category. Your wife See's you as a guaranteed friend, and not a husband she has to work hard to keep. Has your W, truly have to feel the uncertainty of RR not being there the next day?

Life is very short. You are an amazing man!!!! Do you want to continue living as your W friend?

Joejoe01

Thanks, everyone. I took the day to get away. I balanced it with reflection as well as space and diversion.
The revelation that she "Can't try" was taken by me to mean "I won't try for you" Yea, I know that's my own translation, but I don't think it is unrealistic either. Hurtful stuff. Most every 180 that I am aware of I have made along with consistency and time. Yes, I agree that I am in the Friend Zone.

Do I know if she is committed 100%? Obviously not. W's current state is that she isn't 100% committed to anything except her daughters. I always knew that she had a pattern of quitting instead of trying. She left jobs because things weren't right. She's never been one to take her own risks and try. People that can't shoulder the pain of failing, never try.
When we all know that you don't fail until you stop trying.

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Most, men never get out of the friend zone, once placed there. The one's that do, have one of two things happen, either they happen to have a lucky night of sex with the friend, and the guy thinks that will change the mind of the women, which it rarely does, or they, tell their lady friend how they truly feel and detach themselves. This distance gives the lady friend a chance to realize just how special this man is.

This I fully agree with. I have waited for the former and have tried to wait out this realization. I believe that stronger actions are necessary now.

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Yea it's tough, I guess you have to just sit tight for now. I know you want change and you want it now but we rarely get it on our terms. Are you 100% sure your W is fully committed to you? Have you read 5 LL's? Are you working diligently to fill her love bucket?

Is your W ok with not having sex ever? Has she expressed interest in getting things going eventually?

During our morning convo W said "She didn't see ever going back".
Yes, as far as I can tell Ws LL is quality time. I have intentionally filled this bucket. Years ago we both did the LL thing and W was unable to answer what her LL was.

For right now, I believe that I do have to allow her to truly know the feeling of uncertainty of RR not being there the next day.

Just sending you a big hug my friend. We are there with you.

(((RR)))

Originally Posted by RR17

For right now, I believe that I do have to allow her to truly know the feeling of uncertainty of RR not being there the next day.

I fully agree with this R. (((HUGS)))

I'm going to say this for the people that are reading this and earlier in their sitches.

If your plan to get your wife back is to �convince her� to change her mind or to �earn� her love with changes in yourself, there is a frustrating and futile road ahead of you.

If you think this is just my opinion due to my recent personal experience, I trust that one day you will agree with me.
I'm not saying you shouldn't make the changes. Become the man you wish to be regardless.

Patience is important but not at the expense of your own heart. Have a plan B if your plan A is to show her how your 180s are sticking and you are a changed man. If you don't, you will grow to have expectations. You will, even if you tell yourself not to. Time and a positive response have a way of doing this to you. Have a plan "B". Timing is everything and her timing may not synchronize with your plan "A".

My plan "B" which I have instated before with results, but now plan to turn up the efforts. I'm not sure exactly how but I will, because it's the only thing I can control.
I will also say that "playing hard to get" simply to "mind control", though tempting is ultimately disappointing.

My plan B is to make her pursue me. Before I send a text or have a conversation I will ask myself "does this support my goal".
I will become an even more detached, man of mystery. This should be exciting.

Trying hard not confront or to write my W a note telling her how I feel right now.

Remember she's not a "Trier". Now granted she wants results, she just doesn't want to try.

She has shown that she is capable of justifying any action, no matter who gets hurt. Bad things happen to her. Never because of her actions.

She wants to be trusted, yet she doesn't want to do the things necessary to regain trust.

I'm so ready to tell her that I want her to plan on getting out of here. "If you're not interested in trying then you just need to go."

Just don�t do it man. Don�t tell her nothing. You need to use the most subtle way. Some detaching with love...

Reinforce GAL, get in touch with the girls. Show W you have your life going on. And you wont wait for her any more. Don�t say, show! Start getting speed, full ahead!

You�ll still be needing patience and time my friend. You are a commited fighter RR, we admire that on you. Go for the amoafwl, get him.

Strong hugs for you.

[[[[RR]]]]

I not doing anything right now and when I do it will be from a place of calm.

I think sandi said it best. There comes a point when the LBS just gets tired of trying. I've GALed to the point that any more would be considered abandonment.

Wife has a 3 day business trip coming up. I don't trust that it is exactly what she has presented it to be. That level of trust is a luxury that this marriage just can't afford right now.

Right now, I believe that more serious measures are necessary. I really don't feel like I want to be with this person for the rest of my life. I'm well aware that these feelings can change, so, for now, I will vent here. But I have walked away from relationships before and I know what the point where you no longer care to try feels like. I feel very close.

Today is day 3 of NC. I still make the coffee but I come and go without notice and she is in D19s bedroom with the door shut when I return. Usually, these things blow over when something happens that requires us to communicate and she goes on good behavior and we both restore a politeness.

Well, I tired of this cycle. Tired of trying to prove anything.

Even friends don't treat a friend the way she proceeds. Even staying shows a weakness that I don't wish to portray.

We are all well aware of your sitch man. Ease your mind, find a way to detach from those long lasting expectations. You have done a good fight. Take some rest, it�s ok to be tired, who wouldn�t be...Be proud of where you stand my friend. Keep hope, exclude expectations. Protect yourself some more.

I always ask you for time. You know that. Now you need time to shake the inertia and start moving forward. It�s your life.

Respect.

((((((RR))))))

R,

Why are you in NC? That's going to come off as you pouting because she wouldn't have sex with you.

No notes have a face to face conversation. Tell her how you feel. Tell her you have made some mistakes in the past and that you would like to start over with her. Tell her in "your words" that you find her to irresistible be in a platonic relationship with her.

If she tells you she is not willing to work towards that goal then you have no choice but to move on.

As I stated before I see you have two choices 1. accept that it is highly likely the dynamic in your relationship will change 2. State what you need and be willing to walk away if you don't get it

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Why are you in NC? That's going to come off as you pouting because she wouldn't have sex with you.

No notes have a face to face conversation. Tell her how you feel. Tell her you have made some mistakes in the past and that you would like to start over with her. Tell her in "your words" that you find her to irresistible be in a platonic relationship with her.

If she tells you she is not willing to work towards that goal then you have no choice but to move on.

The NC is mutual. A cooling off period.

Once again, it isn't about sex. Never was.
We have already had the above-mentioned conversation. I told her in my own words.

It is time to move on.

From: Me
Since you don't want to have any more conversations and your not a trier, I am left with no other option than to ask you to please go.
I don't trust that your business trip is all you have presented it to be and that you are willing to do whatever you desire without consideration for who you hurt.
I can no longer tolerate this level of mistreatment. Even friends don't do this to each other expecting to remain friends.
Fact is, I don't want to be friends.
You have pushed me to this point and I need you out of my life.
2019/02/19 09:53:31AM

Her:
I'm not going anywhere. If you want to leave, you may. My trip is purely business and you can choose to believe that or not. I will have another conversation but we don't see eye to eye. Neither one of us looks at anything from the other persons perspective.
2019/02/19 10:08:21AM

From: Me
You can't try and you don't care to be trusted. There is really nothing more to discuss.
2019/02/19 10:11:45AM

R,

I guess my first question is why would you send a text as opposed to an in person conversation? My next question is what were you trying to accomplish with that message?

Originally Posted by RR17

I don't trust that your business trip is all you have presented it to be and that you are willing to do whatever you desire without consideration for who you hurt.

Just out of curiosity why do you think she is up to no good?

Originally Posted by RR17

I can no longer tolerate this level of mistreatment. Even friends don't do this to each other expecting to remain friends.

How is she mistreating you other than she doesn't want to have sex with you? I know you keep saying it's not about sex. What else is she doing that is so wrong?

Originally Posted by RR17

I'm not going anywhere. If you want to leave, you may. My trip is purely business and you can choose to believe that or not. I will have another conversation but we don't see eye to eye. Neither one of us looks at anything from the other persons perspective.

Ok. So you told her you need her to leave and she said no. Now what?

Originally Posted by RR17

You can't try and you don't care to be trusted. There is really nothing more to discuss.

So you start out by telling her she doesn't want to have a conversation and she says she will have another conversation and then you say there is nothing to talk about.

Not a very good idea to send that message was it?

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I guess my first question is why would you send a text as opposed to an in person conversation? My next question is what were you trying to accomplish with that message?

Read back. W said she never wanted to have the conversation again. NC
When I text she reads and doesn't just defend and dismiss. I also don't feel the need to defend.

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Just out of curiosity why do you think she is up to no good?

Past experience. Suspicious details about her trip. BTW, never said "no good".

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Ok. So you told her you need her to leave and she said no. Now what?

Good question and I guess it depends on her response. See, that's the nice thing about me. I will do whatever I want. I might leave. I might remove her stuff while she is on her trip. Who knows, she might wake up. All I do know is what I done for a year hasn't worked.

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How is she mistreating you other than she doesn't want to have sex with you? I know you keep saying it's not about sex. What else is she doing that is so wrong?

What do all WW do? W said she "was never going back". That pretty much says it right there. I'm not interested in remaining in the Friend Zone.

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So you start out by telling her she doesn't want to have a conversation and she says she will have another conversation and then you say there is nothing to talk about.

Yep, it has reached that point. I am tired of demonstrating that I am AMOAFWL. We are approaching a year of DBing
Judge all you want but until you walk a mile in my shoes..

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Not a very good idea to send that message was it?

At some point, any man with half a self esteem has had enough.
It's time had come. No regrets here.

R,

Look man I get it you are done. I�m actually in agreement with you that I don�t see her. turning things around. I really just question how you going about communicating this to her.

To me it�s simple �if you�re not interested in moving towards an intimate husband and wife relationship on moving on� Then file for divorce.

Why move her stuff out, she�s not wayward?

You guys seem to get along pretty well be amicable for the children and move on.

So yesterday's melee did lead to an R talk last night. Unfortunately, I have found that these outbursts seem the only way that W will talk reasonably without too much defense and hyperbole. Even still there is some of that. She is not a verbal communicator and this has been IMO the root of most of our problems.

W said she hadn't felt anything in a very long time. So without giving away any DB secrets, I went on to explain how I had been trying to improve as well as make deposits in, what I believe, to be her LL bucket. W took the LL test 5 years ago and could never answer the questions. I had to coach some out of her and the best we could come up with was quality time. As well as other improvements. She acknowledged these things and that I had taken that initiative and that it wasn't "happening to her". She said she didn't really notice, but now that I mention...

I also told her that Sun. when she said that she wasn't a "trier". That I had seen her try and I took it to mean that she choose not to try for me. That I wasn't worth trying for. W seemed taken back. She apologized.

We rehashed the entire R and as expected when I got to the A and it's ensuing damage, W got uncomfortable and I tried to focus on the effect it had on me and my ability to be a great H., Of course, W had no problems pointing out my past transgressions without any problem, it's her past that is supposed to be forgotten.

In usual form, this is all my problem to solve. I explain that love was a choice and that all the experts believed this. That the feelings often came after the decision was made.
Low and behold, my W is different.
She went on to say that there was a time when she really tried and it didn't work. I asked, "when was this?" After I caught her still in the EA and she really called it off and we were on our 3rd. MC. I replied, "Oh before you had restored my trust and I had no idea if you were lying again or not, that's when you were actually trying?". W didn't like that little perspective. I guess I'm supposed to forget when she was living and know when she is not. Puts me in a bit of a pickle.

This put an end to the R talk. I will add that I asked her where she saw this thing going. After saying that she didn't walk around thinking about it all the time (hyperbole). She said that she just took it day by day and tried not to have a miserable life.

So, this morning I didn't make the french press coffee. I woke at 4 am and tried to catch a few extra winks. W made coffee and told me she was leaving for work.
This woman is so lacking self-awareness and unable to express herself that I'm not sure that she is really capable of a healthy relationship.

So, quick update:
W has doubled down on courtesy and respect. She asks me before granting permission to D16. Something she has avoided in an effort to enable the child's every whim. She has taken more initiative to plan dinners, something she has tended to leave to me.

One thing that I realized after our R talk last week was that when I explained that I had felt that W was open to me initiating sex, she asked how so? I gave her examples and she listened. W never challenged these examples of her behavior. She seemed curious and almost dumbfounded. I told her that even though she had said, long ago, that she didn't want to have sex, that she seemed to be moving closer and that after deducting that she would never initiate, I decided to take a chance. W listened and never became defensive. Still so self-unaware.

Anyway, life continues like friendly platonic co-parenting friends. I think the threat of losing me may have gotten her attention.

Originally Posted by RR17

Anyway, life continues like friendly platonic co-parenting friends. I think the threat of losing me may have gotten her attention.

I think you really need to temper your expectations right now. I think you have a tendency to view things as progress only to be disappointed later. I think your W is perfectly fine with keeping you in the FS until it doesn't work for her anymore.

Well, keep shaking the tree then RR. Let see if you get some apples.

Keep moving forward my friend, you don�t eat crumbs. Moving with patience, but moving forward.

(((RR)))

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I think you really need to temper your expectations right now. I think you have a tendency to view things as progress only to be disappointed later. I think your W is perfectly fine with keeping you in the FS until it doesn't work for her anymore.

So, what are my expectations? And what do I do with that information?
I try stuff. I evaluate. As far as W being fine keeping me in the FZ? I tend to agree.

So LH19, what would you suggest if this is the case?

I also know that women are fluid, feeling, creatures and feelings change. There have been times when I felt waiting was the best practice. So I waited.
Other times I feel like blowing the whole thing up. I try to be careful not to do it out of "reaction". But I am very well aware of the risk.
I refuse to be controlled by her inaction. So when faced with "risk it all" or "walk away". I'm fine taking a risk. In my mind, I have nothing to lose.
Thanks for your input.

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Well, keep shaking the tree then RR. Let see if you get some apples.

Keep moving forward my friend, you don�t eat crumbs. Moving with patience, but moving forward.

Neffer, That's exactly what I plan to do. What else could I do?
You're right. I don't eat crumbs.

I don't claim to have figured this out. Not in the least. But I do believe that if more JBS tool a stronger stance in their R that would see movement. As always thanks for your support.

Originally Posted by RR17

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I think you really need to temper your expectations right now. I think you have a tendency to view things as progress only to be disappointed later. I think your W is perfectly fine with keeping you in the FS until it doesn't work for her anymore.

So, what are my expectations? And what do I do with that information?
I try stuff. I evaluate. As far as W being fine keeping me in the FZ? I tend to agree.

So LH19, what would you suggest if this is the case?

Your'e in a tough spot right now. I don't think your W will change her stance anytime soon if ever living in the same house together. I think you have to ask yourself can I live the way I am living right now (BTW a lot of middle age people live this way) for the rest of my life? If the answer is no then you should move on. I would imagine with trust issues it would be a brutal feeling every time something seemed off.

After studying theses sitches for almost four years, time and space are the only thing that turns these things around long-term.

RR, I think your sitch is much more than a FZ sitch. I think she is waiting you out. Usually Ws that do this are expecting one of two things:

1) You to eventually get fed up and to move on.
2) For you to get frustrated and show your true colors. Remember, they don't trust the changes that we make.

You are a year and a half in. In my sitch my MR turned around in 3 1/2 months. There is no set time for these things, every sitch is different. You could keep the status quo for the next 2 years or more before she comes around.

So really, what it boils down to is, how patient can you be?

I really wish I could figure out how to credit posters in the quotes.

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Your'e in a tough spot right now. I don't think your W will change her stance anytime soon if ever living in the same house together. I think you have to ask yourself can I live the way I am living right now (BTW a lot of middle age people live this way) for the rest of my life? If the answer is no then you should move on. I would imagine with trust issues it would be a brutal feeling every time something seemed off.

After studying theses sitches for almost four years, time and space are the only thing that turns these things around long-term.

All these things are true. In fact, they are true for most every LBS on here. We all have choices. Time and space are the ubiquitous factor in everyone's sitch.

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RR, I think your sitch is much more than a FZ sitch. I think she is waiting you out. Usually Ws that do this are expecting one of two things:

1) You to eventually get fed up and to move on.
2) For you to get frustrated and show your true colors. Remember, they don't trust the changes that we make.

You are a year and a half in. In my sitch my MR turned around in 3 1/2 months. There is no set time for these things, every sitch is different. You could keep the status quo for the next 2 years or more before she comes around.

So really, what it boils down to is, how patient can you be?

I can't argue with this either.
As for waiting me out?
1) I've asked her this. She said she is not consciously doing this. Who knows? She is just taking it day by day. (her words)
2) She is improving almost every other facet in the relationship. She even responds to constructive comments. Something she has fought in the past because it would jeopardize her newfound sense of self.
My changes have been going on for over 1.5 years. My awakening was Aug. 2014. They were amplified last Summer upon BD #2.
I brought up many of these changes during our last R talk and she agreed that the changes have happened. Her comment was that she was in so much pain before and feelings had not returned. She said that prior to 2014, that she believed that I hated her. I pointed out that I had walked out on relationships for much less in my life and the fact that I stayed and worked and waited, that that should be a testament that I did, in fact, love her. She listened.

Remember guys I know her better than most anyone. I can usually tell how she will probably respond in most circumstances. Meaning she is predictable. If she had a plan she wouldn't be making it comfortable for me. She would push me out.

I honestly think she is waiting for something to happen to her. What? I don't think she knows.

RR, I went back to your first post and came across this post from Accuray who IMO understands this dynamic better then any poster. There is some good stuff in there:

Hi RR17,

Your situation bears many similarities to mine. My exW had a string of EA's and I eventually caught her in the last one. After that I got the ILYBINILWY, BD, set on divorce, etc. etc. I was able to DB and we reconciled and had another three years together at which point, like you, I suspected something was up, caught her at it again with a new coworker and got divorced.

You and others have come here lately referring to "The 180" and talking about it as if it means walking away from their spouse and giving them space. From my read of MWD's books, "180" refers to evaluating your spouse's complaints about you, deciding which you want to remedy and then addressing them -- i.e. if you used to be sloppy be neat. Not super important but I'm not sure where this new interpretation is coming from because people now seem to think it means "don't pursue".

Regarding your situations, no radar is as fine-tuned as that of a cheated-on spouse, so I would say if your radar is telling you something is up, it probably is.

Does it matter though in the context that she wants to separate and/or wants out? If another person is involved or not, the facts of your relationship are the same.

I think the prescription is the same no matter what: don't pursue her, address your own issues (180), get a life, and act as if you're fine.

In the case of my exW, her needs were not being met in our marriage -- it was a classic "Five Love Languages" challenge where we were sending and receiving on different channels and weren't aware of it. Unfortunately, she chose not to voice any complaints or articulate any desires, perhaps in the interest of avoiding conflict. As a result, her resentments built to the point that she sought an EA and felt justified in doing so. I think at that point she was pretty checked out.

When we then reconciled, I think it was the path of least resistance, or something she felt she was doing for the benefit of the kids and the family and her EA had ended. I don't believe she was committed to the M at that point, so really it was just a stay of execution versus a real reconciliation.

I consider that to be a blessing for me, because I got three good years to be the best H I could be, to "bring it", and to leave the marriage with no regrets about my behavior or my contribution to it, I was able to leave with a great degree of peace. Hopefully you've had the same experience since your W's last EA.

If she's walked several times before and wants to walk again, chances are these are her issues that she doesn't want to address that you may or may not be exacerbating, and she doesn't believe in her heart that she can navigate back to "happy" with you.

As you probably know, the only way she's going to overcome that deeply held belief is for you to open the cage door and completely cut her free. If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.

Given that you have to make things worse before they can possibly get better, separation may not be a bad choice, but I would advise pursuing a separation with the same rules you would have if you were divorced, which is to say that you don't continue to comingle your lives (aside from the kids) and you are free to live your own lives without social accountability to the other person.

That way she can really see if that way of life is better or worse for her. Prepare yourself that in the beginning she will view it as better, mainly because she'll find new found freedom and has convinced herself that its what she wants. It may take six months or two years for reality to set in, but it certainly will.

My advice would be to lean in to what she wants, agree to separate, and work productively with her on the plan with the presentation that you're on board and plan to enjoy this change also. That's going to make her wonder. You want her to wonder what you're thinking, and from this point forward you shouldn't tell her anything about your frame of mind -- nothing at all.

Sooo, you're telling me to move out and formalize a separation? Am I hearing you correctly?

Originally Posted by RR17

Sooo, you're telling me to move out and formalize a separation? Am I hearing you correctly?

R,

Like a good counselor, I am not here to tell you what to do just to look at your options and give my opinion.

Everything Acc wrote one and a half years ago still rings true. She has zero motivation to make your R work. Right now she is taking the path of least resistance while still keeping her options open.

Assuming nothing changes and IMO I don't think it will anytime soon. What are your options?

1. You live like you are now continuing to 180, and GAL and maybe she comes around. Maybe another OM comes along and she Bs you again. Maybe she never comes around but a friendship and security are good enough at this point in your life.
2. You file for D or full blown separation. She thanks you for doing the work for her and moves on and you co-parent together. You realize that living alone is 100 times better then living in limbo. She panics and fears losing you and now has motivation to work on the relationship. She figures out after D that the grass isn't greener and wants to recon but at this point you have moved on.

Time for MY opinion:

I have lived in limbo and it was once described on the board as "soul sucking" and that is how it felt. I am now divorced live alone and have my kids 50% of the time. I am 1,000 times happier then when I was in limbo. As Acc said, I don't completely regret it because I lived with my kids for another 2.5 years full time. Having said that, I will NEVER again in my life try to be a relationship with someone doesn't want to be with me.

I am well aware of my options.

Originally Posted by RR17

I really wish I could figure out how to credit posters in the quotes.

RR17 - the trick is in typing "=name" within the first quote bracket. I'm going to type what it would look like below, but use the correct [ ] instead of the () I use in my example below.

(quote=RR17) Quote goes here (/quote)

Hope that makes sense?

Originally Posted by Yall

RR17 - the trick is in typing "=name" within the first quote bracket. I'm going to type what it would look like below, but use the correct [ ] instead of the () I use in my example below.

(quote=RR17) Quote goes here (/quote)

Hope that makes sense?

Thanks Yall

So W returns from her business trip last night. She is worn out and without doing the math, I asked if the jet lag + time change worked in her favor or against it. While explaining it, W stopped and asked why the look on my face. I said no look. I was trying to make sure she was done talking. I have a history of mistaking your "commas" as periods and just wanted to make sure you were done talking before I speak. W accepted it and I went to bed.
This morning after driving carpool W comes into MBR to tell me she is going into work but that she didn't know how long it would last. I responded "Are you really that beat?" to which she went into a defensive explanation of what all she did and reasons why she was so tired. 25,000 steps each day, long hours etc. All the things that I was unaware of.
I asked why she was so defensive? That I was unaware of the reasons so I inquired.
W said it was the look on my face. And that she wasn't out late parting every night. That's where I stopped her. I said "I never accused you of those things." and if you misread my facial expressions, it is beyond my control.
Well, this leads to a discussion about how whether or not another person can make you feel a certain way.
I'm sure you can guess how that went.
During this discussion, I asked "Is it possible that you misread the look on my face based on things I said before you left on the trip. In her hurt look, she said yes.
I told her that I was sharing concerns and that even though I truly want her to be happy, that I sometimes still felt the threat. BesidesI wasn't telling her something that she didn't already suspect. You do not get to restore trust without doing the things necessary to restore trust.
She just stares.
It is obvious that she wants to lob a grenade and walk off as usual.
I said, "Wait a second, do you see the dynamic here?" "If anything, I didn't feel suspicious until you became defensive for, what I feel, is unjustified reasons." "I have accused you of nothing."
Well, she looked defeated.

Anyway, she left for work. I am the bad guy because of the look on my face. Sure wish she would own her own feelings. Sure wish people didn't expect results without doing the required work.

RR, I know you've had a tough go of it. I know you've struggled with the idea of giving up, vs. continuing to try. I get all of that.

However, I wonder if your exasperation with your sitch and ongoing limbo doesn't creep into your "expressions". Women are masters at reading body language, that is why manipulation doesn't work well with our Ws. They will detect it. They can gauge insincerity like a lie detector test.

So take the valuable information she gave you and use it as an improvement opportunity. Try to control your expressions. I know that is hard. But I had to do the same thing. RR I feel like you've always struggled with detachment. When you aren't detached emotionally then your feelings will come out in your body language and she will pick up on it.

RR, I know you know all of this stuff. You've been at this for a long time. But I feel like you've never really been able to drop the rope completely. And she feels that.

Steve, I know what you are saying about most women. But not all.

I assure you that my W is no masters at reading body language. Over the years, I have picked up on nuances with the kids, others, that she misses. She admits this. Somehow she missed out on the skill of reading social queues.
Now, I do believe that she is looking for signs of my suspicion surrounding this trip. This is IMO a symptom of her personal shame. Not so much my actions. She is more sensitive to my expressions because I told her before she went that I struggled with the idea. You don't get to be trusted without doing the work to restore trust. Doesn't this seem possible?

Baby, I've had the poker face. I've only spoken to her twice and I was intentional in my expression. Perhaps the poker face was suspicious. Still, I refuse to take responsibility for her shame.

It is really easy to judge one's level of detachment in these threads when the poster is honest. I admit my mistakes. I dought many here do. I do it to document mistakes and hopefully not repeat them. Besides I have nothing to hide. I could shape the narrative to make readers believe whatever I want them to. You already admitted I know the stuff. I simply don't see the point.

Besides, I'm kind of done changing. I will wait her out until I get completely fed up and then I will go.

Steve no one ever drops the rope completely unless they give up and stop trying.

RR, obviously you know here better than I do!

Not sure I agree on the last point. I think some have dropped the rope completely, and to great effect. I remember dropping the rope in my sitch and it was a freeing experience. It is funny, more often than not, those that truly drop the rope, are surprised at how the WAS comes towards them instead of away from them. I guess it is all part of the pursuit-distance dynamic.

Good point on the honesty in relation to other posters gauging detachment. I think people's posting does offer insight, no question. You see those that are laser-focused on the WAS comings and goings. And words and deeds. But true we typically come here to discuss our sitches so it isn't always true that because I post so much about her that I am not detached from her. Then there are those that post and you can feel the raw emotional pain and anxiety oozing from them.

Anyway, hang in there RR. Your sitch has been churning longer that most. Your patience through all of this has been exemplary.

Thanks for the compliments.

Quote

Not sure I agree on the last point. I think some have dropped the rope completely, and to great effect. I remember dropping the rope in my sitch and it was a freeing experience. It is funny, more often than not, those that truly drop the rope, are surprised at how the WAS comes towards them instead of away from them. I guess it is all part of the pursuit-distance dynamic.

I think it depends on one's definition of dropping the rope. At times I have moved farther away and yes W does move closer. W moves closer and I try to respond positively to her actions. Perhaps I need to continue to move away.
My problem is after being in limbo for so long when I see results, I gain expectations. I have also obviously grown tired and even knowing that expressing my feelings to her is not DB protocol, I feel the need to let her know. Call it self-care. It is not often, but I am human. ( like telling her that I was uncomfortable regarding her trip)

I honestly believe there are 2 separate dynamics involved.
The physical acts of dropping the rope and the ultimate act of giving up on this person. Both you and I have discussed un-enmeshment. I believe I have made major strides in this area. W and I are both two separate people. 99% of the time I don't let her actions affect my well being. Boundaries
When I do slip, I post it here. I have become so consistent that I don't share my well-executed interactions, only my failures.
I see a whole lot of improvement on her part. She listens to understand and when I communicate effectively she shows an effort to meet my needs. This is huge. I really don't think she does it to avoid making waves as LH19 has suggested. I think she is trying in her own stubborn way.

Originally Posted by RR17

I see a whole lot of improvement on her part. She listens to understand and when I communicate effectively she shows an effort to meet my needs. This is huge. I really don't think she does it to avoid making waves as LH19 has suggested. I think she is trying in her own stubborn way.

R,
What needs of yours is she meeting right now? I thought you quoted her as saying "I am not a tryer"?

Quote

R,
What needs of yours is she meeting right now? I thought you quoted her as saying "I am not a tryer"

First off why do you ask?

IMO, the 2 are separate and very different issues. It is common understanding here that what a W does speaks stronger than what she might say.

As I have said many times before, W is meeting most every need except physical intimacy.

Still not sure of your point. LH19

I think he is making sure you haven't lowered your own standards of having your needs met to meet what she is capable of meeting.

But I will let LH speak for himself.

Steve, then why not just ask that? "Are you sure you haven't lowered, your personal needs?" Doesn't this seem helpful without relying on assumptions or risk of being a leading question?

R,

Are you familiar with Tony Robbins 6 human needs? If not, google it. I would suggest that right now she is not meeting any of your 6 needs other than maybe uncertainty and I think you would agree it is not in a good way.

I am giving you MY opinion. You have a tendency to think things are getting better and then you temp check her only to get rejected.

Again, I think it's possible you can live comfortably in the friend zone for the foreseen future. The question is how much longer can you live in limbo?

Originally Posted by RR17

Steve, then why not just ask that? "Are you sure you haven't lowered, your personal needs?" Doesn't this seem helpful without relying on assumptions or risk of being a leading question?

Again I can't speak for LH, but he and a couple of other posters are really good at asking thought-provoking questions. It gets the LBS to see the overall point for themselves, rather than force-feeding it. RR, some of the best contributors in my threads used that tactic to great effect. If they were straight-forward I might would have become defensive. By asking the right questions that got me to see for myself what they were sensing. Maybe the tactic isn't for everyone, but I greatly value LH and the other posters that do that. It is a tactic used by a lot of ICs, BTW.

LH 19 Plenty of EXCELENT Tony Robbins in the 6 basic human needs. He does an amazing job of reframing dynamics between couples in failed marriages. I highly suggest people watch the videos and take notes

Okay, I'll play.

THE 6 HUMAN NEEDS
1. Certainty: assurance you can avoid pain and gain pleasure
2. Uncertainty/Variety: the need for the unknown, change, new stimuli
3. Significance: feeling unique, important, special or needed
4. Connection/Love: a strong feeling of closeness or union with someone or something
5. Growth: an expansion of capacity, capability or understanding
6. Contribution: a sense of service and focus on helping, giving to and supporting others

I don't see where any healthy individual should expect to have all these NEEDS met by their spouse. I believe that is called codependence. Obviously #4 to an extent but if you expect that during DB you aren't going to get it. At least not on your desired level.
As for the other 5 on Robbin's list? I don't want to seek these needs in any spouse.

Originally Posted by Steve85

Again I can't speak for LH, but he and a couple of other posters are really good at asking thought-provoking questions. It gets the LBS to see the overall point for themselves, rather than force-feeding it. RR, some of the best contributors in my threads used that tactic to great effect. If they were straight-forward I might would have become defensive. By asking the right questions that got me to see for myself what they were sensing. Maybe the tactic isn't for everyone, but I greatly value LH and the other posters that do that. It is a tactic used by a lot of ICs, BTW.

Steve, are you aware that LH suggested that I leave my relationship? When asked he said he was simply stating my options. Which were not my only options.
Do you agree with this? Should I move out and see if this person comes around?

I know that is an option.

Originally Posted by RR17

Okay, I'll play.

THE 6 HUMAN NEEDS
1. Certainty: assurance you can avoid pain and gain pleasure
2. Uncertainty/Variety: the need for the unknown, change, new stimuli
3. Significance: feeling unique, important, special or needed
4. Connection/Love: a strong feeling of closeness or union with someone or something
5. Growth: an expansion of capacity, capability or understanding
6. Contribution: a sense of service and focus on helping, giving to and supporting others

1. Certainty - she will be there for you.
2. Uncertainty - she surprises you with a gift from the store
3. Significance - she makes you feel important and needed
4. Connection - obvious
5. Growth - is your relationship growing
6 Contribution - not really relevant

Look man you get jaded when you hear things you don't want to hear (like you did with AS). We are trying to help you. What Accuray posted a year and a half ago was dead on.

Good luck!

Originally Posted by RR17

Originally Posted by Steve85

Again I can't speak for LH, but he and a couple of other posters are really good at asking thought-provoking questions. It gets the LBS to see the overall point for themselves, rather than force-feeding it. RR, some of the best contributors in my threads used that tactic to great effect. If they were straight-forward I might would have become defensive. By asking the right questions that got me to see for myself what they were sensing. Maybe the tactic isn't for everyone, but I greatly value LH and the other posters that do that. It is a tactic used by a lot of ICs, BTW.

Steve, are you aware that LH suggested that I leave my relationship? When asked he said he was simply stating my options. Which were not my only options.
Do you agree with this? Should I move out and see if this person comes around?

I know that is an option.

The only way I would agree with that is if YOU were done and wanted a D. I think I've even stated that before.

I don't know if I am supposed to mention him or not but I watch a lot of Dr. Phil with my W. One of the things Dr. Phil tells couples on the brink of D is: "You don't have the right to leave this marriage because you haven't done the work necessary to be able to leave it without emotional baggage and the ability to honestly say you did all you could do to save your marriage." I agree with that in totality. Those that leave a marriage prematurely are destined to fail in their next relationship. And those with kids owe it to their kids to make sure that they can honestly say they did everything they could to save the marriage.

But RR, I would support you in whatever decision you make. You have done your part. As long as you deal with the emotional connection to her I would support your decision to leave. But I also think that if you have it in you to stick it out longer that you should.

RR, I admire you my friend! Lesser men would have bailed, but you have stuck it out and continue to do so, and in my estimation that is very admirable.

I was merely asking if you agree with his suggestion?

Only a fool would leave based on anecdotal advice from online strangers.

I will stay until I believe it is useless. I'm not there yet.

Quitting isn't my style until quitting looks like the best practice.

Originally Posted by LH19

Originally Posted by RR17

Okay, I'll play.

THE 6 HUMAN NEEDS
1. Certainty: assurance you can avoid pain and gain pleasure
2. Uncertainty/Variety: the need for the unknown, change, new stimuli
3. Significance: feeling unique, important, special or needed
4. Connection/Love: a strong feeling of closeness or union with someone or something
5. Growth: an expansion of capacity, capability or understanding
6. Contribution: a sense of service and focus on helping, giving to and supporting others

1. Certainty - she will be there for you.
2. Uncertainty - she surprises you with a gift from the store
3. Significance - she makes you feel important and needed
4. Connection - obvious
5. Growth - is your relationship growing
6 Contribution - not really relevant

Look man you get jaded when you hear things you don't want to hear (like you did with AS). We are trying to help you. What Accuray posted a year and a half ago was dead on.

Good luck!

Jaded: tired, bored, or lacking enthusiasm, typically after having had too much of something.

What jaded doesn't mean is that if I don't agree with assumptions from those that don't have all the details, that I am wrong.

Originally Posted by RR17

I was merely asking if you agree with his suggestion?

Only a fool would leave based on anecdotal advice from online strangers.

I will stay until I believe it is useless. I'm not there yet.

Quitting isn't my style until quitting looks like the best practice.

It isn't a matter of agree or disagreeing with him. It is more about if that is how he feels your sitch is best handled then he should say it. There are two great things about this forum:

1) All of the different perspectives you have. I am a conservative Christian, sandi is a former WW, Neffer is a former WH, then you have others that are more liberal. But it is not a bad thing to get different opinions and perspectives.
2) No one is obligated to follow any of the advice they hear here. We are here to try to support and help one another, but we can listen to the advice that makes sense for our sitch, and we can ignore what doesn't make sense.

RR, I love your attitude! I wasn't going down easy in my sitch either. She was either going to file D, or she wasn't. But I was going to stick it out for as long as it took.

One more good thing.

3) We can also challenge advice that doesn't make sense.

�Every great story on the planet happened when someone decided not to give up, but kept going no matter what.�

Spryte Loriano

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