two steps forward, three steps back (burned)

[burned]

link to previous thread

[Ready2Change]

Most of us do not understand that time alone is a gift.

[Wanted1]

ST, you're yet another of the people who say they've seen this play out in real life. Before I got to DB, one of the first books I read was "Rebuilding" by Fisher & Alberti. I was totally floored when I got to the part that said "the dumper (WS) frequently comes back talking about reconciliation, right around the time the dumpee (LBS) is "making it," and the most common response is for the LBS to not take them back. Why? "I'm happy even without them, and they didn't seem to have changed much." Maybe AS is actually one of the authors. He won't admit it though. :P

Hahaha! No, never heard of it. I'm just coming from the angle of someone who has been here a long time and seen LBS's come back with updates, sometimes years after their last post and share that their WAS did eventually try to recon. I've also talked to quite a few people IRL that share similar stories. It happens a lot, but mostly it's YEARS later and that is the problem. I think if I told you "Burned, your W will truly repent of her actions and want to reconcile in 23.2 months" then you would probably wait, but all I can really tell you is she may want to in 2 years, or maybe 7 years, or maybe never. And what LBS is willing to wait 2 or 7 or 10 years just to see if -maybe- the WAS wants to recon? I can't imagine there are many. So we get over them and we move on and we build new lives for ourselves. Then when they do approach us, we're a new person with new interests and new goals and slotting them back into that can be very tough indeed. My whole spiel isn't that we should wait for them forever, it's just to say that the sad truth of it all is they will probably want to recon AFTER we don't want to anymore.

Judging by everything that I've learned on this forum, I think if that were the case, they wouldn't come back because we, as the LBS, waiting around and not believing that they are gone for good wouldn't create the necessary changes it takes to "move on" and "make it" that's probably required for most of the WW and WH to realize they screwed up and come out of the fog.

[Phoenix9]

Most of us do not understand that time alone is a gift.

This is not a joke when I say this, but understanding what you said takes time. I am just now getting that.

[SoTorn]

I am also just now feeling the "Time is a Gift" thing. I started school, have been working on myself physically and emotionally. Using the time wisely makes you feel the difference.

[burned]

W texted to ask when I'll transfer the money. I said as soon as the D is final. She pulled out her boundaries script, "That doesn't work for me." I said it's a division of property and I'm not making the transfer until the divorce decree is signed (not using that many words, of course, but that makes it easier to understand). She got all huffy and said some nonsense about alimony and taxes that I know is wrong because I did the research and figured it out. There was a little more back and forth, very short responses from me. Then she says "Well if it's going to be transferred anyway, what difference does it make?" Rather than parroting back the exact same question (because I do want to know), I just went on with my day.

So now she's all angry because I didn't do what she wants me to do. *Yawn.* Not once did she use the words "file" or "divorce" or whatever. And I did not relent.

1. I feel a bizarre sense of strength and calm. I like it.

LOL! Man these WAS's and their crazy talk. I responded by going to work out.

2. What is her angle? Someone please explain this to me because it makes no sense. She wants everything except the divorce. What other cake can she eat? Is it not clear to her that the M is over?

[Wanted1]

W texted to ask when I'll transfer the money. I said as soon as the D is final. She pulled out her boundaries script, "That doesn't work for me." I said it's a division of property and I'm not making the transfer until the divorce decree is signed (not using that many words, of course, but that makes it easier to understand). She got all huffy and said some nonsense about alimony and taxes that I know is wrong because I did the research and figured it out. There was a little more back and forth, very short responses from me. Then she says "Well if it's going to be transferred anyway, what difference does it make?" Rather than parroting back the exact same question (because I do want to know), I just went on with my day.

So now she's all angry because I didn't do what she wants me to do. *Yawn.* Not once did she use the words "file" or "divorce" or whatever. And I did not relent.

1. I feel a bizarre sense of strength and calm. I like it.

LOL! Man these WAS's and their crazy talk. I responded by going to work out.

2. What is her angle? Someone please explain this to me because it makes no sense. She wants everything except the divorce. What other cake can she eat? Is it not clear to her that the M is over?

Probably wants the money that she is claiming is the settlement now and then when she files she can go after more for the actual D settlement. My WW initially told me she doesn’t want any property settlement. That money wasn’t important to her. Boy, when I read her first proposal this past weekend she showed that she can perform 180s too. SMFH.....

[burned]

Oh that is DIRTY. I didn’t think of that. Wow that would be a new low for her. I suspect someone’s coaching her. OM?

These spouses are some kind of crazy.

Any other explanations? Control, fear, plan B stuff? Other than that I think you might have nailed it.

[TJT]

Now that R2C has officially lost me with the candy metaphor...

I just get a little pissy sometimes thinking (if it's true that the A is ongoing) that it stinks that she gets to be having a relationship and sex and someone to sleep next to, and I'm here just suffering alone.

R2C is totally right about the above. I go back to that thinking a lot, burned - A LOT - because it seems so unfair. But take a step back and look at your W's new thing as if you're a completely independent party to it. Would you envy it then? I doubt it because you will then be able to see how unhealthy and meaningless it really is once that limerance goes away (or once ish simply hits the fan and neither of them have the years of loyalty to each other to bank on).

Real love and commitment takes years to build upon and makes sacrifices. They have done neither at this point. It's easy to feel giddy and have sex and blah blah blah. It always fades and without that strong foundation what will be left then?

It frustrates the heck out of me to know that my H and OW have tons of people around them enabling their relationship. But that doesn't make it any less of a train wreck!

I'm stuck in the pain because the pain comes from the things that end the pain. Does that make any sense at all? And I'm angry at myself for letting it all happen.

Yes, it all makes perfect sense. Focus on how much more quickly you can get through those periods (I think by the time of my response you already have, so that's progress).

She stopped loving me, "cheated" on me which is just a fancy way of saying "kept me around for the money while she started a relationship with her new boyfriend." Strung me along even after I found out about it. And I let her.

1) She didn't stop loving you. Recognize even with the things you did wrong, this is not about your worth as a person.

2) No matter WHAT you did wrong, unless you really were abusive to the point of her being scared, it does not justify her running off with another person. Trust me, in these situations they will say anything. My H literally told his parents that I just didn't tell him he did a good job enough. Really? THAT'S why he cheated on me and suddenly wants to leave the entire life we've built? No. And if he felt it was really that bad, guess what? He could have left me BEFORE he had a convenient little hooha praising his farts.

Think of the specific behaviors that you don't like. Don't think of labels of who you are as a person. You can change a LOT of behaviors if you're mindful of them, hold yourself accountable for them (ask others to help you too if they notice it), etc. But make sure you're specific about what exactly it is you do that makes you SEEM emotionally abusive, or SEEM dependent, etc. We act certain ways for certain reasons - find those reasons and fix that. You do not have to BE those things.

I'd like to prove her wrong. I'd like to make the changes and see them stick. But she's so far out the door.

What does the former have to do with the latter here? If you want to make the changes you need to want to make them for YOU first, not just for her. Sure, let her be the reason you realized these things, but ultimately if you improve yourself it will still benefit YOU.

Look burned... reality is, you can't know all these things that you're making up, and it doesn't matter right now! Only you matter right now!

It's entirely possible that the abrupt and definite change of tone that happened in early August right as I was starting to participate here, was just her decision to be done, rather than something related to the A. Maybe she was telling the truth when she said the A is over.

It is entirely possible. It doesn't make the fact that she cheated on you any less hurtful or wrong, and personally I don't think anything you've done outweighs THAT, unless you're really not being fully honest. Only you are going to be able to determine that AND determine what you need to do to come to grips with your reality. But it will likely take you a lot more time to see things clearly, too. Be honest with yourself but also be fair.

More likely she will move on. You don't go back to a guy like the guy I was. Just too much damage to be worth considering.

If you're still the guy you were when she was with you, you haven't put in the work. So more likely, if you continue to put in the work like it seems you are, YOU will move on, and she can make a decision to benefit from that or not.

The key is that you have to want to change, period. If someone came to you right now and said 100% she is not coming back, does that mean you're not going to try to improve? I hope you realize that even if you don't get your W back (or she chooses not to benefit from the new and improved you) you will make the next woman so much happier if you've put in this work.

And do you think your W can say that? Is SHE going to IC? Is SHE working on herself or just trying to escape reality? She may seem "ahead" of you now but if she doesn't do the maintenance on her car and then breaks down in the middle of the road while you've been working hard to get yours in the best shape possible, you'll be passing her someday. IF she decides to do the work too, maybe she'll catch up and wave and exchange some pleasantries at a stop light... at which time you can choose how to respond to that.

[TJT]

Oh that is DIRTY. I didn’t think of that.

It would be dirty and I obviously can't say for sure that that wouldn't be the case. However... I honestly don't think it sounds that way. To me it just sounds like she's asking for money now for something she wants now (not sure if there's anything legitimate she would NEED, but since she didn't really provide a reason as to why exactly that "didn't work" for her, I do agree she's fishing for something.

But we have to be careful not to give them too much credit, either, and if she was trying to be manipulative I would think she would have had a better "reason" planned than just asking you straight up. Again, could be wrong. That's jut my gut reaction, FWIW.

Any other explanations? Control, fear, plan B stuff? Other than that I think you might have nailed it.

Lol... "other than that"... You just acknowledged that it literally could be a whole host of other things.

I think the other important thing to note here is that yes, while some people can become extremely vindictive for no reason in Ds, people also do a lot of things, as we all know, that say a lot more about THEM than us. To your point, it could definitely be control or fear or whatever, and she may NOT actually be trying to screw you over tenfold. Again maybe she is... but don't torture yourself (or put yourself into a deeper spiral) but jumping to conclusions.

Be smart and protect yourself but don't let her control your sanity.

[burned]

Thanks. That was encouraging. I mean yeah I’ll be a better person. I already am. It’s just all regrets. It’s like I had this wonderful woman and I lost her because of stupidity, selfishness, immaturity...just a shame. So yeah the next one will benefit but I don’t think I’ll ever love someone the way I loved her. I’ll always be holding back. Every time I say “I love you” or crack some funny joke it’ll feel like it’s not entirely true, because those are things I used to do with W. Does that make any sense? Like, I’ll have to come up with entirely new things to say so that I’m still being genuine.

And what a friggin’ stupid thing to worry about!! Burned, get with the program. Focus on me, I know.

Just a moment ago I got annoyed because I remember her saying that our M felt like she was a frog slowly boiling. She said that! But believe nothing they say, water off a duck, etc. I just can’t believe some of the mean things she has said. It’s almost like OM has a stake in the game and is encouraging her. Like, it’s juts not her. Someone is pulling the strings and treating her like a puppet.

Oh, and she has been in IC since right before the A began. She ONCE mentioned MC back then, and never followed up after I said I didn’t think it was necessary. Almost like she just said it so that she could say she mentioned it and I said no. Seriously? If you thought we needed it, why didn’t you ask again? Ugh. Anyway, after physical S (before I knew about DB) she talked about IC and how it felt so good to learn to be assertive and to trust her feelings and act according to them. So a lot of good that did. Gonna end it here so I don’t lose my temper.

So first, I empathize with what you're feeling and often feel the same way that it would be amazing if prince charming came and burned swept me off my feet (see what I did there?!)

I see what you did there. That was sort of how I got into a little spin last night. I have a lot to give and I miss that feeling of limerence. I’m human, too. I don’t want to spend the rest of my life having to “think” about what I’m doing. I do enough thinking, obsessively. Sometimes I just want to LIVE and just let life carry me wherever it may. I know the general consensus here is that I CAN live and it has nothing to do with any other person. But nothing beats that feeling. We were made for it.

Edit: those last 2 sentences sound a lot like what W was probably thinking when she let Mr. F***head park his car on her front lawn. We’re all the same, in the end. (Yes, that was a sarcastic euphemism.)

[TJT]

So yeah the next one will benefit but I don’t think I’ll ever love someone the way I loved her. I’ll always be holding back. Every time I say “I love you” or crack some funny joke it’ll feel like it’s not entirely true, because those are things I used to do with W. Does that make any sense? Like, I’ll have to come up with entirely new things to say so that I’m still being genuine.

I LITERALLY think of this exact same thing. All the little inside jokes or sweet mannerisms, that you just did naturally, it wouldn't be the same to do them with someone else. But you know what? I think the combination of people is what creates some of those things too... so a new person may have their things they did with someone before, and you have yours, but TOGETHER your personalities will also naturally result in new things unique to just you.

I can't believe that just made sense because like I said, I've been terrified of that same thing. I think it's less that you won't be able to create these things with someone else and more of just another layer of grief. You have to grieve that the old habits you had won't be the same in the future. It's both refreshing and sad. But not a nail in the coffin to loving someone deeply again. Ugh why am I being so optimistic?! Just believe me until I turn sour again okay?

Just a moment ago I got annoyed because I remember her saying that our M felt like she was a frog slowly boiling. She said that! But believe nothing they say, water off a duck, etc.

Okay, so, this may not have been particularly nice or fair...and don't hate me... but it does sound like that was just her expressing her feelings. You need to focus on the WHY here, though. Granted, I don't know the full context or if she said other unreasonable things to justify saying that, but I can see how it could be frustrating if you get angry and defensive instead of validating her feelings and then trying to understand the root cause of them.

Also, don't feel too bad about this because we all do it. It's very hard to focus on what's behind someone's hurt when you are hurting yourself. You just have to recognize it so you can handle it when it happens and realize that there's more to it than just them being mean. Again I don't know all the context here so if you feel this is totally wrong, you have every right to evaluate it differently and more accurately than I can. But again. Be honest with yourself, and ask if this is one of those triggers/behaviors that you can change.

It’s almost like OM has a stake in the game and is encouraging her. Like, it’s juts not her. Someone is pulling the strings and treating her like a puppet.

I have to say you are legit confusing me. In your last post you didn't seem sure if she really was still with OM. Now it sounds like you're uber convinced OM is around and having a huge influence over her. Do you really know for sure one way or another?

Again, people do things out of character when they're hurting (and I don't mean hurting because of you. She may be dealing with her own demons). Maybe it's OM, or maybe it's the pain alien.

She ONCE mentioned MC back then, and never followed up after I said I didn’t think it was necessary. Almost like she just said it so that she could say she mentioned it and I said no. Seriously? If you thought we needed it, why didn’t you ask again?

Behaviors. Was that a pattern in your relationship? Did you shoot her down about things consistently or make her feel bad about it when you did?

I'm being tough on you tonight, I admit, but when I read what you just wrote it does sound like you are blaming her for your own actions. I totally get it if she minimized it and didn't make it sound like a big deal. However, if someone is asking you to go to MC...that's not just like asking you to go to the beach.

To be honest, this kind of sounds like my H... I also asked him to do some couple counseling type stuff when I thought it could help us (even just some stuff we could do together at home to learn more about each other) and he brushed it off even though it was probably only once or twice. AND when he was acting weird, I asked him probably 10 times one day what was wrong with him, to the point where he told me to stop asking. Then later when I tried to protest his unhappiness and explain that I had tried all these things, he told me I shouldn't have let it go and I just "should have known" to not stop asking.

That's blame shifting. Take this for what it's worth, adjust for details I may not know about your relationship, but process it nonetheless. And no, this doesn't mean that she couldn't have done more, or tried to stick it out, or as I said before, that it justifies her cheating. Obviously people make mistakes and it doesn't mean we should be punished for them the way that our spouses are doing it. But like a broken record - you do need to be honest with yourself and try to figure out where you are justified and where, maybe, you aren't.

You gotta stop being so angry at everything or you're never going to have the room to understand what's really going on, let alone fix or get past it.

I don’t want to spend the rest of my life having to “think” about what I’m doing.

I don't really know what you mean by this. If you improve yourself for the better, genuinely and fully, you won't have to think about it actively all the time. And for the many times where it still is valuable for you to stop and think about your actions, that just means you're a good person that doesn't just act off of impulses without caring for other people.

I know the general consensus here is that I CAN live and it has nothing to do with any other person. But nothing beats that feeling. We were made for it.

I agree. And nothing beats being the type of person that can maintain a great, healthy relationship even when that FEELING goes away, because it always does. Not necessarily permanently, but I am convinced more than ever that love is a choice. Even if you find that perfect woman, you are not always going to feel it. What you're made of in those situations (when you're angry, when they're being less than perfect, when you're annoyed or tired or broke or hungryand how you react to that is what will really matter in your life down the road. That's the part that has nothing to do with any other person.

[Wanted1]

Oh that is DIRTY. I didn’t think of that. Wow that would be a new low for her. I suspect someone’s coaching her. OM?

These spouses are some kind of crazy.

Any other explanations? Control, fear, plan B stuff? Other than that I think you might have nailed it.

Maybe a weird temp check? I don’t know but I think my W is getting coached now. Did a complete 180 on everything we verbally agreed to.

[joejoe1]

Burn,

If your W asked you go to M counseling and you said no, that's your fault. Instead of blaming her for not asking again, you need to take ownership for saying no. She tried in that moment and you weren't willing. That's the facts for that moment.

People who have been hurt by a lover, spouse, GF/BF, most of the time don't look past that hurt and the person that did the hurt. Most people aren't afraid to love, after they are hurt by another person they still want to feel love again. But instead of loving again, people that have been hurt put more energy into worrying about focusing on not being hurt again. Life is full of risk. Love is no different. So you thinking you won't love another the same way you love your WW, is not true, but you will love them differently with more awareness.

Our WS hurt us, but we tend to hurt ourselves more by not focusing on our own healing.

Onward and Forward

[AnotherStander]

Judging by everything that I've learned on this forum, I think if that were the case, they wouldn't come back because we, as the LBS, waiting around and not believing that they are gone for good wouldn't create the necessary changes it takes to "move on" and "make it" that's probably required for most of the WW and WH to realize they screwed up and come out of the fog.

Well yes that is the rub right there. If you do nothing but just try to wait them out then they'll never come back. But get over them and move on and they very well might want to come back, but BECAUSE you've moved on you probably don't want them back. Life is cruel, LOL!

2. What is her angle? Someone please explain this to me because it makes no sense. She wants everything except the divorce. What other cake can she eat? Is it not clear to her that the M is over?

Probably wants the money that she is claiming is the settlement now and then when she files she can go after more for the actual D settlement. My WW initially told me she doesn’t want any property settlement. That money wasn’t important to her. Boy, when I read her first proposal this past weekend she showed that she can perform 180s too. SMFH.....

My ex did something like this as well. All during D talks she talked about how she wanted to be fair. She drew up the papers, I reviewed them and actually she was pretty fair. Then when it was signed by both of us and set to be recorded with the court she decided I owed her more money. Something like 7k? Her reasoning was a bunch of rambling incoherence that looked like it was written by a 3-year-old learning to write with a crayon. I mean literally it was unreadable, I could not decipher what she was saying. I called her and told her I didn't understand it and asked if we could meet so she could explain it to me. In one of the few instances where she showed real anger post-BD she went postal and said "we will just let the lawyers sort it out in court then, and believe me, it will not go in your favor." And she hung up on me. Up to that point she was content to work things out between the two of us. I was trying to get the D finalized so I could proceed with a business deal, and frankly her show of crazy had me spinning like I had been BD'd all over again. The thought of months of protracted court battles and lawyer fees had me going through anxiety all over again. In the end I told her I didn't understand her reasoning and would have appreciated an explanation, but if she felt it was fair then I would sign it so go ahead and revise it. And that was the end of that, and I have zero regrets for capitulating on it.

Anyway, I guess the point is don't believe anything they say until the paperwork is signed and filed.

[burned]

Thanks all. Heading into IC now, will post more later of course.

What I’m struggling with today is:
1. The weight of all the things I could have done better
2. The regret that it’s too late (most likely)
3. The paradox that for the moment all I can do is be super tough and self-protective, minimally responsive to what SHE wants. Which is the opposite of what I feel I should do, because that crap (TJT, you NAILED it, shooting her down and making her feel bad about it) is what got me here.

“I’m not giving you a cent more.”
“See, you never cared about my needs. You’re a controlling a-hole.”

[AnotherStander]

“I’m not giving you a cent more.”
“See, you never cared about my needs. You’re a controlling a-hole.”

Option 2:
"I'm giving you exactly what you asked for."
"See, you never cared about my needs. If you cared you would be more generous. You're a controlling a-hole."

Option 3:
"Take it all, here's my checkbook, help yourself."
"See, you never cared about my needs. If you cared you would be working 4 jobs so you could pay for my breast augmentation, lip injections and trip to Tahiti with OM. You're a controlling a-hole."

You see what I'm getting at here? Her mindset right now is you are wrong and an a-hole NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO. You can't measure your success on her positive affirmations, because you will have a 0.00% success rate.

[burned]

Well it's more like Option 4:
"I'm giving you exactly what you asked for, on terms I'm comfortable with."
"You're a controlling a-hole and you're doing this to punish me."

Planting that seed of respect, I guess. It just feels so wrong, like I'm digging the hole even deeper. I know that's just a feeling and not a fact. Counterintuitive, yep.

L thinks I should stop trying to figure out what her angle is, and be somewhat less terse. Last night I said, "I'll transfer the money after the divorce is final." L thinks I could have said, "It is safer for both of us to do the transfer once there is an order in place."

Oh, and IC says it doesn't matter what she thinks, she'll come back or she won't (sounds familiar, hmm). He says, You're using this as an opportunity to practice doing what's right for you, so that you stop being the kind of person who just says "yes dear" and then resents it forever, thereby making you a better husband for someone else in the future.

[Wanted1]

“I’m not giving you a cent more.”
“See, you never cared about my needs. You’re a controlling a-hole.”

Option 2:
"I'm giving you exactly what you asked for."
"See, you never cared about my needs. If you cared you would be more generous. You're a controlling a-hole."

Option 3:
"Take it all, here's my checkbook, help yourself."
"See, you never cared about my needs. If you cared you would be working 4 jobs so you could pay for my breast augmentation, lip injections and trip to Tahiti with OM. You're a controlling a-hole."

You see what I'm getting at here? Her mindset right now is you are wrong and an a-hole NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO. You can't measure your success on her positive affirmations, because you will have a 0.00% success rate.

OMG, you nailed it right here. This is something I'm going to keep in the front of my mind moving forward!

[DC421]

AnotherStander nailed it! There is no way to "win" here. Divorce truly brings out evil sides of people that have never been seen before. The joke I make with friends going thru it is.... You could actually cure cancer and they would tell you that you did it wrong!

[TJT]

L thinks I should stop trying to figure out what her angle is, and be somewhat less terse. Last night I said, "I'll transfer the money after the divorce is final." L thinks I could have said, "It is safer for both of us to do the transfer once there is an order in place."

Oh, and IC says it doesn't matter what she thinks, she'll come back or she won't (sounds familiar, hmm). He says, You're using this as an opportunity to practice doing what's right for you, so that you stop being the kind of person who just says "yes dear" and then resents it forever, thereby making you a better husband for someone else in the future.

Your L and IC are both exactly right (and prove I'm not good at brevity, hah). I would make one adjustment to what your IC said though, in that I don't see where you've been doing the "yes dear" thing... it seems the opposite where you get gnarly and fight when you're angry, and THAT'S what you resent.

Either way, the part about being a better husband in the future - whether it's with your W or with someone else - is the key.

And also, you don't have to live with regret if you learn from it. You will really regret it if you spend too much time wallowing in what you did wrong to where you don't improve and then just repeat history. In the super grand scheme of things, you still have a lot of opportunity to have a great life and be a great husband (there I go again saying things I hate people saying to me, lol).

That being said...sometime you do need to take these things bit by bit and not overwhelm yourself by thinking that far ahead. Keep that perspective in your mind but stay sane by focusing on what you are going to do in the next minute, hour, and day. Do not look out years at a time. You can't plan for that.

[Ginger1]

[quote=burned]

Oh, and she has been in IC since right before the A began. She ONCE mentioned MC back then, and never followed up after I said I didn’t think it was necessary. Almost like she just said it so that she could say she mentioned it and I said no. Seriously? If you thought we needed it, why didn’t you ask again? Ugh. Anyway, after physical S (before I knew about DB) she talked about IC and how it felt so good to learn to be assertive and to trust her feelings and act according to them. So a lot of good that did. Gonna end it here so I don’t lose my temper.

quote]

For real? You are blaming her for not asking you again after you turned her down. She asked you in the first place because she felt you needed it. You decided that you did not, then she respected your answer and she is the one at fault for this interaction?

Look at this real close, burned.

[burned]

you get gnarly and fight when you're angry, and THAT'S what you resent.

Can you explain this in more detail? Sometimes I feel like I can't tell the difference between being assertive and fighting, and I'm afraid I'm consistently botching my interactions with W because of it. Am I coming across as vindictive or aggressive, based on what I post here? Do you mean that I resent the fact that I get gnarly?

[burned]

For real? You are blaming her for not asking you again after you turned her down. She asked you in the first place because she felt you needed it. You decided that you did not, then she respected your answer and she is the one at fault for this interaction?

Look at this real close, burned.

I am, and it's hard. It's a major regret. I recall the incident very clearly. I said, "No, that's only for people who are about to get divorced."

I had no idea how serious she was. The way she asked, it was "Do you think we should do MC?" She never sat me down and said, "I am unhappy in this M and I think if we don't do MC I won't be able to go on." So I misread it, very very badly. I'm ashamed of it. It's yet another of the things she had been telling me and telling me and I hadn't been hearing it. It's easy for me to blame her for not having been assertive enough or clear enough or direct enough, but it's on ME that I didn't care enough or pay enough attention to really sense her intentions.

After BD I told her I regretted that and I told her I wish I had done it. Too late.

But do you see why I wallow in regret? The more I think about things, the more I realize that I really blew it. And why I'm resistant to the idea that she is just in a "fog" and might change her mind. The way I see it, it was a very unhappy relationship for her. I don't really blame her for wanting out, when I really look at it.

[Ginger1]

Truth is, she isn't just in a fog. An A is never right. I am not excusing her A at all. It very well could have been a very unhappy relationship for her. And you very well could have "blown it" by not hearing her. Those actions should have been regretted, but to wallow in it, won't accomplish anything. Seeing how you were and why you were the way you were and making the strides to fix it is all you can do.

But I quoted what you said, because you are still blaming her!

When a woman feels awfully unheard or disregarded (or even a man, I am sure) it takes a of strength to ask for something and say how they feel. That first time coming to you probably was REALLY difficult for her. To do it again seemed impossible.

I am not saying this is you, but I lived with an H who never heard me, disregarded everything I said and every feeling I ever had, and sometimes called them stupid. So to even ask my exH for an ounce of something took all my courage and willpower. And I never ever would dream about trying again when I got turned down or insulted.

These are lessons to learn from and not something to wallow in. You'll only benefit in the long run.

[Phoenix9]

For real? You are blaming her for not asking you again after you turned her down. She asked you in the first place because she felt you needed it. You decided that you did not, then she respected your answer and she is the one at fault for this interaction?

Look at this real close, burned.

I am, and it's hard. It's a major regret. I recall the incident very clearly. I said, "No, that's only for people who are about to get divorced."

I had no idea how serious she was. The way she asked, it was "Do you think we should do MC?" She never sat me down and said, "I am unhappy in this M and I think if we don't do MC I won't be able to go on." So I misread it, very very badly. I'm ashamed of it. It's yet another of the things she had been telling me and telling me and I hadn't been hearing it. It's easy for me to blame her for not having been assertive enough or clear enough or direct enough, but it's on ME that I didn't care enough or pay enough attention to really sense her intentions.

After BD I told her I regretted that and I told her I wish I had done it. Too late.

But do you see why I wallow in regret? The more I think about things, the more I realize that I really blew it. And why I'm resistant to the idea that she is just in a "fog" and might change her mind. The way I see it, it was a very unhappy relationship for her. I don't really blame her for wanting out, when I really look at it.

B,

Nearly the exact same circumstances were in my sitch leading to BD. WW practically begged for help and I brushed it off, because I thought we would be able to weather the storm a little longer.

I was wrong. And yeah, I do have regrets about not seeing this sooner, I'm sure we all do. And we are here, learning the tools needed to have a successful R/MR, whether it's with our WS or with someone else.

To be honest, I think we needed something as awful as this to truly see our shortcomings as not only a S, but as relatives, friends, employees, etc.

I remember earlier in my sitch when I was told that DBing cannot just be applied to MR, but to all interactions. I lashed out because I had no idea how such a concept could be applied in my life.

I am understand it now. And they were right. DBing is not just for MR. DB is for everything in life that requires interaction.

You need to work on forgiving yourself. Otherwise you are going to have a hard time recovering from this.

[burned]

I am not saying this is you, but I lived with an H who never heard me, disregarded everything I said and every feeling I ever had, and sometimes called them stupid. So to even ask my exH for an ounce of something took all my courage and willpower. And I never ever would dream about trying again when I got turned down or insulted.

That hits pretty close to home.

And it's why I worry that taking the WW "tough love" approach that I started doing in September made it worse.

[Vapo]

I am not saying this is you, but I lived with an H who never heard me, disregarded everything I said and every feeling I ever had, and sometimes called them stupid. So to even ask my exH for an ounce of something took all my courage and willpower. And I never ever would dream about trying again when I got turned down or insulted.

That hits pretty close to home.

And it's why I worry that taking the WW "tough love" approach that I started doing in September made it worse.

Be it as it may. Pour yourself a big cup of STFU juice and get your a$$ in gear. Wallowing in despair and pointless regret is utterly futile and a literal waste of time. And the more time you waste, you prolong your healing and slow your growing. Dude, you have serious growing to do. SERIOUS.

And again, chastising yourself about your September actions and worrying what im might as or has not done to your R is about as useless as snow cover stats of midwest Colorado in 2005-06 season.

[harvey]

Let her go. If you love her, you will do that. That is unconditional love. Let her take her journey. If her future doesn't include you, so be it. I think it's healthy for some people to keep hope, but I think it keeps you stuck.

[burned]

Eventful day. Got fed up with waiting for W to “fill out forms and mail them” so I emailed her my proposal today. L thought it was very favorable to me and fair to W. W had a couple questions which I answered to her satisfaction.

She didn’t put up a fight, and it doesn’t seem to bother her that things are moving forward. Apparently it’s easier to get a D than to adopt a dog. We could go to court tomorrow morning and be done before lunch.

It all just hurts. She really just doesn’t care, apparently. She just wants out. I know it’s not FACTUALLY true but I FEEL like some kind of ogre, that she would just nonchalantly agree to the terms and run away. I’ve been reading lots of old threads, R2C quotes threads, etc. to try to find some solace. Nothing is helping. Whatever she’s after is so much “better” than our M, in her mind, that she’s willing to just say “F it” and move on. I know we don’t have kids and I’m young and so forth, so maybe it’s wrong of me to piss and moan about how hard this is. But I’m human too.

I haven’t clicked “send” yet but my next email to her is, “Sounds good, do you have time this week to meet me at the courthouse?” If it’s gonna happen anyway and she clearly wants it, it’ll be over and done before the weekend.

Sort of feels like a Mexican standoff or some perverted game of chicken. Well, she didn’t flinch.

I guess I decided that this was a necessary step in the process. Things were stagnant. NC made no diffference. S made no difference. GAL made no difference. 180s were irrelevant because of NC. I stopped trying to control her, which apparently came across as me not caring about her and not having a backbone. To be clear, I’m NOT criticizing DB. I just think in my case it wasn’t effective in saving this M.

But you know what? FUNK that M. It was a piece of SH1T for both of us. I’d never marry the person I was, and if I did I’d divorce the sh1t out of that loser. Burned 2.0 will be better. Someday. W won’t know it because she will be married to OM and doing her part in contributing to the statistics about second marriages. I’ll lick my wounds and then reemerge like a motherdunking EAGLE. (In other words, I think I may have just hit AnotherStander Stage 4 or 5.)

This. Suxcs.

Please hit me with the hickory 2x4s if my thinking needs adjustment. I mean it feels sort of good to take control and torch this nonsense. But in the end I still think she’ll be better off.

[Joe2017]

Nah, don't worry about it. Once the D is done and final, many parts of your world will become easier only because the process is not hanging over you.

Keep your head up!

[Ready2Change]

I don't know if it matters, but I would kill the "Sounds good"...maybe change it to :

"Let me know when you would like to meet at the court house."


Again this is just paperwork. It may be harder for you to win her back without kids. Keep DBing. I still DB in my new relationship. It is a never ending way of being.

[burned]

Trying really hard not to let the anger take over again. My marriage is nothing but paperwork. She doesn’t want to move out of the house until the semester is over. Apparently D is just a nuisance to her. Not a major problem, just a minor annoyance. “As long as H cooperates it won’t get in the way of my grades.” The woman I loved cares more about the next 3 months of school than about our 13 years together.

I’m not trying to say I’m blameless. Far from it. But at least I’m treating this like the life-changing event that it is.

[Joe2017]

Dude, unless she's just some sort of psychopath one day she is going to realize that it was a horrible ordeal. Everything happens differently for everyone. Her path is not your path anymore. Her time is coming. She may never tell you when it happens, but it will hit her eventually.

[DejaVu6]

(((Burn))). I know how you feel. My H is the same way. Thirteen years means very little... and we do have kids. It s#cks. I know you are probably sick of hearing people tell you that being young with no kids is an advantage. You are still grieving so it means nothing. In a year or two, however, you will be fully appreciating those two things. I predict that if you maintain the great changes you have made and continue to grow, you will meet a fantastic woman who will very much appreciate Burn 2.0. But, for now, you just have to focus on you and have faith that time will take care of the rest. (((HUGS)))

[burned]

NC made no diffference. S made no difference. GAL made no difference. 180s were irrelevant because of NC. I stopped trying to control her, which apparently came across as me not caring about her and not having a backbone. To be clear, I’m NOT criticizing DB. I just think in my case it wasn’t effective in saving this M.

And I should also be clear that I did all of these things with expectations, and with too much focus on her. So that’s definitely on me.

[Vapo]

NC made no diffference. S made no difference. GAL made no difference. 180s were irrelevant because of NC. I stopped trying to control her, which apparently came across as me not caring about her and not having a backbone. To be clear, I’m NOT criticizing DB. I just think in my case it wasn’t effective in saving this M.

And I should also be clear that I did all of these things with expectations, and with too much focus on her. So that’s definitely on me.

A couple of 2x4s.

From above written it is clear to me, that you pulled the D trigger just to get a response from her. Fail No. 1

NC made no diffference. S made no difference. GAL made no difference. 180s were irrelevant because of NC.

- Fail No. 2 You have been told by all the vets 2 most important things:

1. This is a marathon, not a sprint and it would be months if not years before any developments can be felt.
2. NC, GAL and 180s are for YOU and not your W.

For fcuck's sake, you pulled the D trigger and you are paving the way for your W's divorce. You are playing in her hand beautifully. I cannot wrap my brain around your statement that DB in your case wasn't effective in saving your M. Dude, you have been DB'ing a couple of months now and frankly, you kinda sucked at it. But that's OK, when I was in your time frame I probably sucked worse.

You are still doing an awful amount of mind reading. Fail No. 3 You do have a tendency to shape your mind reading so it kinda fits the facts and your expectations, that is in fact just fancy wording for lying to yourself and making excuses for yourself so you do not have to do any work. Classic avoidance that is. And also you are actively sabotaging yourself. One has to wonder if you are sabotaging yourself in other aspects of your life as well.

With all 2x4s exhausted I now have a couple of words of caution.

I am afraid that now your D is imminent, you will not realize that you need to change/grow/advance yourself. I am afraid you will end up divorced, you will mourn a bit, then you will start a new relationship on the rebound and without learning your lesson, you will end up right back here in a decade or so. I noticed on another thread that you said my words are stern, but they are keeping you in check and that made me chuckle.

Growing is hard, changing is hard, but there really is no other healthy way. I do hope you realize that in time, before you further enmesh yourself.

With words of caution exhausted, let me just finish by wishing you all the best on your further journey. All the 2x4s are used in a loving way, because I care.

All of us here are in your corner, but the direction you steer your life is ultimately yours alone.

Stay strong buddy,

V

[burned]

you pulled the D trigger just to get a response from her

It’s what she wanted, asked for, etc. I’ve been accused of being controlling, manipulative, egocentric, clinging. I give her what she wants as a first step in trying NOT to be those things.

You are playing in her hand beautifully.

Is there anything to be gained from being oppositional?

that is in fact just fancy wording for lying to yourself and making excuses for yourself so you do not have to do any work. Classic avoidance that is. And also you are actively sabotaging yourself. One has to wonder if you are sabotaging yourself in other aspects of your life as well.

You hit the nail on the head, obviously. My question is still along the same lines: if I’m learning to fight avoidance, and doing the work that I don’t want to do, namely, letting her go and giving her the D she wants...isn’t that progress, at least for me? Like, a first step so that then I can start doing the rest of the work, unencumbered by the guilt I feel for refusing to do what she asks?

I appreciate the time you take to respond. I’m doing my best but it’s a long road ahead. I’m just really, really confused by all of the different advice I get.

Anything else I can do now, or will it make it worse if I back down?

[neffer]

Hey B, Vapo did the best headshooting summary.

What else can you do? Consciously DB, for yourself, in the best, honest, direct and simply way you can. With zero expectations and focused solely on yourself.

It´s hard man, but you need to get into burninator 2.0 the sooner you can.
Keep moving B

(((hugs)))

[Joe2017]

Burned:
You should not have guilt for not giving her that she wants. You need to read some books on codependency and talk to a counselor to work on that.

If you are continually codependent, your subsequent relationships are going to have problems too.

[Vapo]

you pulled the D trigger just to get a response from her

It’s what she wanted, asked for, etc. I’ve been accused of being controlling, manipulative, egocentric, clinging. I give her what she wants as a first step in trying NOT to be those things.

You are playing in her hand beautifully.

Is there anything to be gained from being oppositional?

that is in fact just fancy wording for lying to yourself and making excuses for yourself so you do not have to do any work. Classic avoidance that is. And also you are actively sabotaging yourself. One has to wonder if you are sabotaging yourself in other aspects of your life as well.

You hit the nail on the head, obviously. My question is still along the same lines: if I’m learning to fight avoidance, and doing the work that I don’t want to do, namely, letting her go and giving her the D she wants...isn’t that progress, at least for me? Like, a first step so that then I can start doing the rest of the work, unencumbered by the guilt I feel for refusing to do what she asks?

I appreciate the time you take to respond. I’m doing my best but it’s a long road ahead. I’m just really, really confused by all of the different advice I get.

Anything else I can do now, or will it make it worse if I back down?

B,

I know you are probably feeling like crap right now and I am sorry that my writing has caused you discomfort. But things had to be said and IMO it is better to be brutally honest and not sugar coating things.

You are playing in her hand beautifully.

Is there anything to be gained from being oppositional?

There is a difference in being oppositional and being an instigator. The proper MO would be to let her run the show with the rationale it's her divorce, she can do the legwork for it. And to answer you with your own argument. Could it not be understood that you filing is a clear signal to her that you do not want her in your life? Now she has it in black and white that you are divorcing her and she can continue playing the victim, big bad Burned divorcing sweet fragile devastated Mrs. Burned. I still maintain that you did it only to try and shake her out of it. Guess what, you failed. No biggie, dust yourself off and stand tall again. Let her file if she must, I very much doubt the insta D will offer you much solace.

I know you must feel you are doing something, but the work that is in front of you is ATM internal and not external. You have to rebuild you. I know you are probably shaking your head reading this thinking WTF. It takes time to understand, even more so to get one's ass in gear and start moving, it is only after you started moving you see what a magical journey lies ahead. You will see you can achieve much more than you ever dreamed of.

I appreciate the time you take to respond. I’m doing my best but it’s a long road ahead. I’m just really, really confused by all of the different advice I get.

What different advice did you get? I must say I follow your thread closely and I cannot remember any advice given to you that would be conflicting. Please remember you can always use these boards to bounce of ideas you might have. Or if you have a problem grasping a concept, we will repeat, reshape it for you to better understand.

To finish this post I would just like to ask you one thing. Do you want to be divorced? If the answer is no, than do not file, let her file.

V.

[Ginger1]

Everything you do is a ploy to get he back, rather than to better yourself.

she comes to you with the D paperwork. You don't fight it and do your part. There, that isn't avoidance, and it also isn't a tactic to get her back. I think your 180's aren't being done quite properly. Change things YOU would like to see changed in yourself, not what your W wants to see.

My ex pretty much was willing to hand anything over to begin his life with his OW. We didn't have much, anyways. But we did share a kid. He just wanted "standard" custody, which was not 50/50. every other weekend and one night a week. There was nothing more he wanted than to start his life with his OW and he got that. They have been married for 7 years now, lol. Did I hand it to him? No. Did I fight him and try to delay it? No. I am in the camp of, if you don't want to be here, I am not going to force you to be. because that isn't love.

She may have been resolved to this for a long time. She probably has done the mourning you are doing and you didn't know it.

Db will work for you when you work it. Just like AA. It may not save your M, but it will save you and future R's.

[burned]

I know you are probably feeling like crap right now and I am sorry that my writing has caused you discomfort. But things had to be said and IMO it is better to be brutally honest and not sugar coating things.

Brutally honest works for me, but it also makes me react kind of defensively. My goal is to challenge the ideas so as to better understand them. But even then, I'm intellectualizing, which is an avoidance tactic.

The proper MO would be to let her run the show with the rationale it's her divorce, she can do the legwork for it.

This is consistent with what people here have been saying. I've had a lot of trouble aligning it with the other advice, which is that I shouldn't let her run the show.

Could it not be understood that you filing is a clear signal to her that you do not want her in your life? Now she has it in black and white that you are divorcing her and she can continue playing the victim, big bad Burned divorcing sweet fragile devastated Mrs. Burned. I still maintain that you did it only to try and shake her out of it.

Nailed it. That was my intent. "Sh1t or get off the pot." I'm not her plan B, I don't want to be married to someone who clearly wants a D. Right? So again it's hard to combine those two different ideas.

Also, there is not a single person in real life who hasn't told me I should move the process forward. "Give her what she wants, don't be a jerk, don't cling to her." So I'm told to just tell them to leave me alone about it. But then they say "Well then don't come crying to us!" And who else do I go crying to? Maybe that's the point of GAL.

And she called my bluff! Or, rather, she didn't say anything either way. So I don't know what she thinks and I'm going to actively try to stop mind reading all the time.

the work that is in front of you is ATM internal and not external. You have to rebuild you. I know you are probably shaking your head reading this thinking WTF. It takes time to understand, even more so to get one's ass in gear and start moving

I want to SAY "I get this" but apparently I'm not getting it. It makes sense, rationally. I just seem to be incapable of functioning when I fear that someone is going to hurt me. And I fear the D will hurt me. So there's one area where I could do some work.

For the record, I've been in IC. IC thinks I have to "act despite the fear" which means just do the darn D already. Yet he is also in favor of "do what's right for you and stand up for yourself" which is consistent with what people here say but not entirely consistent with "getting it overwith." So which do I choose? Then he says "Choose what's right for you and accept responsibility for the consequences." So...yeah.

I've also been going to Co-dependents Anonymous groups beginning in December. Mildly helpful. I am starting to see the irony in that I'm trying to "please" everyone by trying to figure out what they want me to do and then do it. Like, people who say "do the D already," I feel a need to please them, because they make a good argument in favor of it. Likewise for the opposite. Ugh.

Do you want to be divorced? If the answer is no, than do not file, let her file.

No, with all of my heart I do not want to be divorced. Rationally, it seems like the best outcome for everyone. But emotionally, it's not what I want.

So what do I do? Just let it sit? She will say, "You said you'd get the paperwork done so that you could transfer the money." How do I respond to that without looking like a wishy-washy plan B? I dug myself into a bad hole here.

[Vapo]

"Sorry W, I've thought it over and I have come to the realization that divorce is not what I want so I will not file."

So what do I do? Just let it sit? She will say, "You said you'd get the paperwork done so that you could transfer the money." How do I respond to that without looking like a wishy-washy plan B? I dug myself into a bad hole here.

So you'd rather be divorced than considered wishy washy?!? Read this one out loud to yourself and you will understand the enormity of your gaff. Again you are avoiding a situation that you potentially find unpleasant (can you say avoidance).

When you are talking from the position of your beliefs, you will project strength. You BELIEVE you should not get divorced, so TRANSMIT your BELIEF that the divorce is not something you want. If she wants it, let her do the legwork for it. You will not fight her, you just will not help her. There is a difference, a GIGANTIC one.

Kick your inner pu$$y's a$$!

[burned]

Got it. So in a few days she will text and say "What's the status" and I will give her that response. Then she'll flip out and do the blah blah blah you said you'd do it. She'll accuse me of controlling her by telling her she'll get the money after D and then not doing the D. Then I just stand my ground and say "Well then you know what you need to do" or will that be controlling, too?

Tough love, I guess. But it means I have to swallow the fear that she will then come charging out the door and make it happen.

[Vapo]

You know what, fcuk it. If I were you, I'd pick up the phone and call her exactly that. That way you will not be stressed out when the text is coming (and you KNOW it is coming) and you'd also pull a 180 (being assertive).

And trust me, it will feel darn awesome. If she starts giving you lip about it, you just say W, I see your point, however my mind is set. Good day!

[burned]

Sounds exciting. Can I do it by email? It seems like a sudden and abrupt change of tactic.

[Vapo]

Dude,

do if however you want to do it, but doing it over the phone will also go a bit towards your avoidance issue.

NIKE

[burned]

Haven't talked to her on the phone or ftf since September.

So she gets a call all of a sudden, just me passing through to say "Hey I know we emailed about this last night but I thought about it and it's not what I want. If it's what you want, I won't stand in your way." And then blah blah blah blah from her and then I say, "OK, I know that's how you feel. Sorry, gotta go."

She will think I'm manipulating her, no?

[Vapo]

Who gives a rat's a$$ what she's thinking...

[Joe2017]

Stop seeking validation from your cheating ex wife.

[Ginger1]

Do what you want! Do what you think is right and aligned with what you want and how you want to carry yourself.

This isn't about tactics or what her reactions will be.

You are trying too hard to elicit reactions or trying to be what you think she wants you to be or do what she wants you to do.

be your own man that you can proudly look into the mirror and look at the end of the day.

[Yail]

I don't want to interrupt Burned/Vapo dialogue because it's a really good one.

Just wanted to point out this bit:

Also, there is not a single person in real life who hasn't told me I should move the process forward. "Give her what she wants, don't be a jerk, don't cling to her." So I'm told to just tell them to leave me alone about it. But then they say "Well then don't come crying to us!" And who else do I go crying to? Maybe that's the point of GAL.

This is interesting, because it's not something I have heard talked about on the boards very much. The fact that other people's support (IRL) is contingent on taking their advice. That's not a very supportive way to give advice but it highlights some of your confusion very clearly.

[AnotherStander]

It all just hurts. She really just doesn’t care, apparently. She just wants out.

Has she said or done anything since BD to make you think otherwise? Honestly Burned, I agree with Vapo and Ginger that this whole D thing is nothing more than one whopper of a temp check on your part to try and "wake her up". That is NOT a reason to push D through. If you can rationally and calmly tell yourself that you want a D and are willing to pursue it if she doesn't then that's one thing, but if you're doing it just to get a reaction then you are setting yourself up for disappointment because all you are doing is giving her exactly what she wants.

I haven’t clicked “send” yet but my next email to her is, “Sounds good, do you have time this week to meet me at the courthouse?” If it’s gonna happen anyway and she clearly wants it, it’ll be over and done before the weekend.

Sure it's what she wants RIGHT NOW. A week from now? A month from now? A year? Who knows. She doesn't even know.

Sort of feels like a Mexican standoff or some perverted game of chicken. Well, she didn’t flinch.

They never do. When you temp check a WAS it NEVER goes your way.

I guess I decided that this was a necessary step in the process. Things were stagnant. NC made no diffference. S made no difference. GAL made no difference. 180s were irrelevant because of NC. I stopped trying to control her, which apparently came across as me not caring about her and not having a backbone. To be clear, I’m NOT criticizing DB. I just think in my case it wasn’t effective in saving this M.

Your BD was 9 months ago, I know that seems like forever to you but it's highly unusual for an M to be saved in that short of a time after a BD. A lot of marriages out there are "saved" in less time, but only because they were just having some struggles, it wasn't a WAS situation. Once a spouse goes full WAS then it's a completely different ballgame with a much longer timeframe.

[burned]

this whole D thing is nothing more than one whopper of a temp check on your part to try and "wake her up". That is NOT a reason to push D through.

I see that now, and I was warned against it a couple months ago when I first started getting this urge to move things along. The pressure of external "encouragement" along with some impatience on my part, is what led to it. Then again, I've done it before and she never followed up when I backed off. Why, I don't know.

This is by far the strangest experience I've ever had, in my entire life, and I had kind of a wild time when I was in college. How can you SAY you want something, ACT consistently as if you want it, over the course of MONTHS...and yet maybe not want it? SHE is the one that needs to put her money where her mouth is, not me.

I make myself dizzy trying to figure out what she's getting out of this limbo or why she keeps kind of nudging me around. You could argue that her message about "let's get things moving" was her baiting me, and I took that bait.

So now I find myself in the position of having taken the bait, solidified my plan B status even further (I could have sworn she was getting ready to commit to OM so I don't see the reason to have me as plan B, but anyway)...and basically set the D wheels in motion. I could have listened to my gut about how "talking about D" is a control strategy rather than a decision, and suggests that she isn't going to do anything. But I was a hungry little fish. Why? Because I haven't been GALing, duh.

I'm going to just back off and wait. I'll try to stay extra busy to keep my mind off of this. I have to see what her next move will be. Then I will consult here before I do or say ANYTHING.

Picking myself back up again...

[TBSakaJ9]

In my experience your W will push for D once she is comfortable with OM. As long as him or another OM is in the picture you are firmly plan B. I am generalizing here but most women won't jump ship unless they are confident they have a place to land. My XW waited 8 months to bring up moving forward with D, she was dating the moment she moved out of the house and only pushed it forward when she found someone she was comfortable with.

[SoTorn]

I am in the same situation burned. I don't want to live like this at all. However, I don't want to file for D. I still do not want a D. However, I have been GAL and detaching like my life depends on it, because it actually does depend on it. I have gotten to a point where I am no longer anxious about wondering if WW is going to file for D. If she does, I will not hinder it.

However, at this point I have not gotten to where I will file for D. My sitch isnt that old. But I have been detaching myself almost completely from her as much as possible. I feel a lot better. I don't know when or how long it will be until its me that files for D. I do know that I am now skipping turns on the emotional roller coaster.

[ovrrnbw]

Vapo has the right of it. If she hasn't heard your voice in months call her. Email is for pansies. Grab ahold of your member, stand up tall and put your shoulders back, and be clear and brief. You are too wordy.

Say exactly what Vapo said:

"Sorry W, I've thought it over and I have come to the realization that divorce is not what I want so I will not file."

And let the chips fall where they may. You validate quickly and get off the phone quickly.

I mean this is the nicest way possible, but you are a stubborn ass to push for D when you don't want that. I have been known to be stubborn too. If you don't want to be plan B, then don't be. You guys don't live together right? Don't talk to her, don't let her cake eat, just go live your life! Kick work in the butt, kick your personal life in the butt, kick butt in the gym, talk to women and have fun! Suddenly you won't be looking so plan B'ish to everyone.

[burned]

Vapo has the right of it. If she hasn't heard your voice in months call her.

Is it entirely for me, for my sense of confidence in stating my position and then letting the chips fall?

Because other than that I'm not supposed to do anything for the sake of how she will respond. And I was told to just do things rather than say them. And how do I benefit if she hears my voice, if she is presumably repulsed by it/me/anything that has to do with me?

I'm asking these things so I can understand better. My tendency is to just take advice and run with it, so I want to really understand it first. That's a 180 for me.

She'll say, "Well then how do you suggest that we proceed?"

First voice-to-voice interaction since September when she took off her rings and I started backing off. In the meantime we've done all kinds of "negotiating" by text and email. Suddenly I call and say "I don't want this!" And isn't that pursuit? Pressure? Just tells her "I'm still here for this M." "Hi my name is Burned and I'll be your plan B, the M will still be here when you're done playing the field."

I know I'm not getting it. Please help clarify my thinking. Is it because I haven't validated in months, and she needs to hear me say "I respect your wishes"? But then I'm doing it to influence her, not me. Unless it's about being the kind of person who tells other people that he respects them and shows it?! That would be THE 180 she has always wanted since BD.

Sorry, just thinking out loud. Gotta make sure I handle this right.

[Twofeet]

B,

You have some wood nearby? A wood chair, wood table, a 2x4 lying around? Go hit your head on the wood. BONK! Better? Good, now if you don't want D why are you filing? If you do file then you are doing it for you not for her, or to get a reaction from her. You know I have said in the past you give real good advice in other ppls sitch, but you get nutty in your own. You are starting to get nutty again. Maybe read NGS and do the exercises again.

I also agree with the others. Text and email create a paper trail, but a phone call would be a good exercise in manning up.

[burned]

if you don't want D why are you filing? ... You are starting to get nutty again.

Yup, it has been a nutty 24 hours.

I'm not filing. I haven't taken any steps to file. What I did was send her all of the forms with my suggested division of property. Neither of us has to file, we can just go to the courthouse and file together, serve and accept on the spot, and they bring it to the judge and (s)he signs it and we're done.

So what she has now is a rough draft of all of that. She asked for a couple changes and I said I'd make them. It would then be on her to say, "OK let's go turn it in."

So I did all of the legwork, and all she has to do now is pull the trigger. The only thing I got out of it is that I know she'll accept my lowball offer.

Also, this is probably the NGS part, but she has been very adamant about it all of a sudden since the year began, so I was sort of cooperating by giving her the information. That's my lame-o excuse.

[ovrrnbw]

It's for you and her, to see that you're strong and act from strength and your own morals and not reacting to her.

You're asking these questions b/c your scared. I get that, it is scary. That's why I said

Grab ahold of your member, stand up tall and put your shoulders back, and be clear and brief

If you don't want divorce, don't push for divorce. A strong man, and woman for that matter, does what he wants to, makes a decision and doesn't look back. Look up BDE in the urban dictionary.

If she asks for suggestions, Mr. Plan B would certainly offer up a few. Mr. BDE would say "not my place" and then hang up the phone.

If you think this is pursuit, go read DR. MWD lists a bunch of forms of pursuit and not filing D is not one of them.

You know, when I was dating before my W, I always told women I was going to CALL when I was getting her number. And I told her if she didn't answer that's OK. Most men today, ok boys, play little text games and screw around on these apps. But I was looking for a real woman who wasn't screwing around. If I have to text and say this and do that just the right way, it just wasn't meant to be.

[burned]

Do I explain any of my reasoning? If she says "Well then why did you send me the forms yesterday?" And what if she says "Well, too late, we're doing this, so while I have you on the phone when do you want to meet to finalize"?

[Ready2Change]

Do I explain any of my reasoning?

NO

If she says "Well then why did you send me the forms yesterday?"

H:"W, You said D was the only way for you to be happy. I want you to be happy."

And what if she says "Well, too late, we're doing this, so while I have you on the phone when do you want to meet to finalize"?

H:"W,I am free right now."

W:"I can't bla bla bla "
H:"Let me know a time that works for you."

[FlySolo]

I know exactly how you feel ... limbo [censored]. There are times when I want to just shove the papers in his face and have done with it. The few times my H and I have discussed D or even formalising our separation have always been instigated by me. And that is because I was hurting and hurt people do stupid things.

I think you need to understand your motivations for 'doing the leg' work. In my case it was partly because I wanted to shock him into realising what he was throwing away, partly because I wanted to regain some control of my life, and partly (and this is a large part) because I wanted him to feel the hurt I feel. If your W wants to D then she should be the one to do the work. Whether she pushes for a D because she is becoming more secure with OM or needing to secure her financial position or because is just plain being a [censored] does not matter. Her motivations are her own. You cannot control them. You can only control you. Think before you react. Understand your motivations. That is all you can control.

I will say if that she does push for the D, don't make it difficult or awkward for her - obstinance and pettiness are not attractive qualities, but one could say that drafting the paperwork yourself is also obstinant and petty.

Personally I think calling her or even texting her at this stage to say I don't want this divorce (after you've drafted and sent her the paperwork) would look indecisive and weak. Like you were playing mind games, hoping shed back down and when she didn't, got all panicky and are now back to pursuing. The horse has bolted and only she can stop it now. Don't contact her at all. Balls in her court.

What now .. follow Ovrr's advice. Continue living your life. GAL, 180 and detach. I know you've said that you've done this and it doesn't feel like it's helping but that's because you were doing it with one eye on your W. Remember you once wrote on my thread 'they can smell' that we're still waiting for them. You were right. So, this time use the tools for you. It won't mean you will miraculously forget about your W. She will still invade your thoughts. But it will happen less and less if you do the work properly. You will also find that with time, it will matter less and less whether she notices or not.

[Ready2Change]

IF you are doing this on the phone. Get you tonality squared away. 2 tones deeper than you normally talk. Slow down you pace.

[Ready2Change]

Burned,


Have you done the required work to be the most attractive Burned?

What is your W going to find attractive about you now?

How are you more attractive than OM or fantasy man?

[AnotherStander]

Is it entirely for me, for my sense of confidence in stating my position and then letting the chips fall?

Burned, one of the struggles we all go through is the feeling that we've lost control. I suspect that may be part of you pushing the D through as well is you want to feel like you're "in control" again. You'll get there eventually, and at that time you may very well decide you DO want to proceed with D. That's exactly what happened to me. I'm not saying that calling her is wrong, but if it were me I would probably just not say anything to her and if she asks I would tell her "I've decided to postpone it for now" rather than saying you decided it's not what you want. If she says how long then just say you don't know and you've got some thinking to do, because that's the truth.

She'll say, "Well then how do you suggest that we proceed?"

Well, this is the tricky part. You've done all the work so if SHE wants to proceed then there's not really anything to it except file the paperwork.

[burned]

if it were me I would probably just not say anything to her and if she asks I would tell her "I've decided to postpone it for now" rather than saying you decided it's not what you want. If she says how long then just say you don't know and you've got some thinking to do, because that's the truth.

That's my game plan for now. I handed her the grenade but I didn't pull the pin.

She'll say, "Well then how do you suggest that we proceed?"

Well, this is the tricky part. You've done all the work so if SHE wants to proceed then there's not really anything to it except file the paperwork.

At least now I know that if she doesn't proceed it's not because she doesn't know how.

[ovrrnbw]

Do I explain any of my reasoning? If she says "Well then why did you send me the forms yesterday?" And what if she says "Well, too late, we're doing this, so while I have you on the phone when do you want to meet to finalize"?

BDE. Seriously. It's a mindset, not a secret code word.

Right now you're doing something you don't want to do to gain control over something you have no control over.

[burned]

So after my whopper of a temp check, maybe W will see it as such, as an attempt by Burned to establish control. She didn’t take my bait, she just DBed me with the whole “fine, if that’s what you want” attitude. So I am just going to pull way, way back and hope I dodged the bullet.

[Yail]

burned, aside from this whole file/not file exchange, how often do you have contact via text/email with W?

It doesn't sound like things will immediately settle into a NC situation, but when they do I think this may help. Not NC in the sense that you're punishing her, or withdrawing - but NC in the sense that once you don't have anything to communicate back and forth I think you'll find some more peace. Look forward to that in your future: peace.

Until then, keep doing your best. When in doubt - do nothing.

I've read folks here saying often "Doing nothing IS doing something". I think of it with the phrase from (again - here I go...) my favorite poet..

"Anyone who has sat in Lotus
for more than a few seconds knows
it takes a h3ll of a lot more muscle to stay
than to go" - A. Gibson

Meaning - STAY STILL. That takes a lot of strength. Stillness is your goal. Settle into yourself and your intentions.

[MoveFrwd]

Burned - have you done or thought about anything else over the last week?

How is your GAL? How is your happiness johrbal? And so on.

How can you say these things “don’t work” when you haven’t jumped into them wholeheartedly?

[burned]

Amoafwl, I will respond to you in a separate post. I don’t think these things don’t work. I think in terms of wholeheartedness and correctness, my grades are C and F, respectively. I have accomplished some of my goals, and I’m starting to see improvements in how I interact with others, along with consistently better moods, fewer bad days, less thinking about her, more detachment. I’m starting to be Me again.

And do you know what Me is? I’m petty, vindictive, passive-aggressive, impatient, selfish, and generally callous. I hide my hateful tendencies under a thin veneer of charm, wit, niceness. I’m arrogant and entitled and prideful. I resent when things don’t work the way I want them to, because I think I’m special and don’t have to put in the work. I blame others for my lack of satisfaction in life. I’m not the good person I’ve duped people into thinking I am. I’m a victim and a fraud. I ask for advice and then I ridicule it, because “I know better.”

I am just like her.

So, speaking of her, I’m just about done with her. I’m strongly contemplating changing my FB marital status to “Separated” (hey, it’s only been what, 6 months?) and watch what happens. Did I mention I’m petty?

It’s not right for me to have to suffer all of the consequences of her actions. I’m done being the scapegoat. I’m done being the “hero.” I’m tired of lying to myself thinking any of this will ever change. I deserve a better life. And my fear has evaporated, because my mind and my conscience are clear. Bring it, woman. You can’t hurt me anymore.

So...pros and cons? Blow this thing up? Make her start to feel the heat? We’re all but divorced anyway. What do I have to lose? We all know the outcome. She’ll never change. I won’t want her back. Too much damage has been done. Time to have a little fun.

(This stuff is mostly sarcastic, but I’m trying to start a good discussion, just for the sake of learning. Grab your 2x4s and smack me around. I can take it now.)

[MoveFrwd]

And do you know what Me is? I’m petty, vindictive, passive-aggressive, impatient, selfish, and generally callous. I hide my hateful tendencies under a thin veneer of charm, wit, niceness. I’m arrogant and entitled and prideful. I resent when things don’t work the way I want them to, because I think I’m special and don’t have to put in the work. I blame others for my lack of satisfaction in life. I’m not the good person I’ve duped people into thinking I am. I’m a victim and a fraud. I ask for advice and then I ridicule it, because “I know better”

So maybe instead of worrying about everything else, you work on these things....

I’m sure there are plenty of good qualities to balance this out. In any case, the first step to solving any problem is to identify it.

Do you want to be all of those things the rest of your life?

[Yail]

So...pros and cons? Blow this thing up? Make her start to feel the heat? We’re all but divorced anyway.

And will you look forward to looking in the mirror 6 months after these actions? Will you be glad you had 15 minutes of relief? Because that is all it will be.

Just take your R status on FB and hide it. Just make it private, that's all. No announcement, no drama - just remove it.

You need a paradigm shift. I don't know what that is. You oscillate between the same two thoughts: your love and hate for her. Your love and hate for yourself. I'm not sure if that's what it is, but it's a cycling pattern.

Without getting into an Ayn Rand debate (because it always ends up bloody), I do think one of her major themes is pertinent here. That theme is:

If you are confronting a contradiction - check your premise. One of your assumptions is wrong.

[Yail]

Burned, I have to post again. You've really riled me up. You prob won't like me but tough cookies.

I don't understand why you think life happens TO you. Your interactions with your life are always reactionary. If you sat still for 1 full week and didn't "do" anything but just SIT. What would you want in your life? Not what do you want to happen, or what specific person, or what do you want to fix. But like...if you could do anything what would it be?

Do you sit still? Not laze about after work, but sit STILL. No planning. No thinking about the past.

You need to create something in your life from scratch. Don't take something that happened to you and react. Don't take a nice cookie-cutter life that we're all told to have (meet/date/marry/2.5 kids/dog) and apply it to yourself. You need to do something a little wonky, a little "weird", a little off-kilter and do it because it intrigues you. I don't know what it is, but you need to stop your repetitious thoughts and actions.

I'm hearing someone who is not happy with themselves and that won't change until you just dig up whoever it is you really are and who you are really supposed to be. All those negative traits you listed above - that's your true SELF fighting with whomever you're pretending to be. IThat battle is coming out in negative traits, but I don't think the traits are your true self. You have a major internal battle going on and it has nothing to do with W.

This is not written with the intention of making you feel like you're a bad person. I don't think you are. I'm pretty sure you're not because I actually dated "you" (well, your internet personality doppelganger) in college for two years. So I weirdly feel like I know you because your personality similarities are striking.

What is something in your life that you've really had to fight or fight for? What adversity have you faced, if you feel like sharing? I think you need to remember back to whatever pain or fight you had then, and think about how you walked through it. How you were stronger after. Share your scars, and remember that we didn't get them to look cool. We got them when we had no other choices.

[Ready2Change]

And do you know what Me is? I’m petty, vindictive, passive-aggressive, impatient, selfish, and generally callous. I hide my hateful tendencies under a thin veneer of charm, wit, niceness. I’m arrogant and entitled and prideful. I resent when things don’t work the way I want them to, because I think I’m special and don’t have to put in the work. I blame others for my lack of satisfaction in life. I’m not the good person I’ve duped people into thinking I am. I’m a victim and a fraud. I ask for advice and then I ridicule it, because “I know better.”

I am just like her.

We all have 4 fingers pointing back at us while we point one at "the bad person".


This is what it all really is about. This is an inward journey. How do I want to treat other people. What can I change to be more in line with how I want to be.

[burned]

Well I didn’t get the feedback I expected (righteous indignation!) but I definitely got the feedback I needed.

It’s easier to focus on what’s wrong with other people because then I don’t have to focus on what’s wrong with me. And I always have 3 or 4 fingers pointed back at me. The problem is, I judge myself much too harshly.

I don’t know if this is the right place to get into that really deep stuff. It’s Divorce Busting, not “free online psychotherapy.” I’ll bring it up with IC tomorrow. I have my fair share of pretty deep scars that I’ve always been good about keeping to myself. Except when I used them as excuses for the ways I sometimes acted toward W and others.

I will say that in a lot of ways my life is a story of opposites, dichotomies, dialectics, whatever you want to call them. And in her worst moments after BD (and even before) W was quick to point out that I always see things in black-and-white and that that’s a major problem. Actually the most recent time she said that was the last time I saw her, our last R talk, she said that the breakdown of our M isn’t black-and-white. Sounded like a cruddy way of saying “it’s your fault too” but it’s all true. Not my fault she cheated, but of course I contributed to the breakdown of the M. Maybe things got worse after BD because I was so defensive and so focused on the pain of betrayal that she didn’t realize that I was aware of my contributions, and blamed it all on her? She speaks cryptically sometimes, and I also remember her saying that she didn’t think it was fair that she was the one who had to make a decision on her own about whether or not to stay in the M. Maybe that was her way of saying “I don’t want to feel like this is all my fault”? So she was also right that I’m not a very good listener, but surely when you’re saying things that are THAT important, you could be a bit more direct when you KNOW the other person is a fairly straightforward black-and-white kind of guy? Like when she said we should do MC (before the A). But as several people pointed out, it’s not right to blame her for my own blindness.

It’s also why I’ve consistently second-guessed going dark. I think she saw that as more of the same, “He gets angry and shuts down when he doesn’t get what he wants, because it’s always either-or. He hasn’t changed.” The irony is that I wouldn’t have gotten to all of these insights if I was still frantically clinging to her. So going dark was both detrimental AND necessay and...hey look at me integrating two opposites!

So I guess I’ve hit the point where I’ve detached from her enough that now I’m focused more on myself. Stage 5 maybe? I was hoping the righteous indignation would help with detachment, and maybe it did, but now my own demons are staring me in the face and telling me, You’re going to go through this again and hurt another innocent beautiful creature if you don’t fix it. That’s what I’ve been told here, over and over, but I don’t think I was ready to hear it until now.

Kind of humiliating, though, that she cheated on me and dumped me, and not only have I lost her but I’ve also lost the blissful denial that I was able to perpetuate by “using” her. Allll kinds of messed-upness in that R. Also kind of annoying that just around the time that I’m calm enough and detached enough to be able to TELL her all of these realizations and SHOW her what I’m capable of, she’s tying up the last of the loose ends so she can move on. I’ll probably always be a disappointment in her mind, a “failure” in the sense that I wasn’t who she thought I was. There’s no going back. Someday I hope she’ll take a look at the new me (and as of today I’m still the same me) and maybe she’ll like that I became more like the person she hoped I could be.

But it’s going to be a long road.

[Ginger1]

The reason why she is cryptic? Because she was afraid of what your reaction was going to be if she was direct. She was hoping you would get the clue on your own so she doesn't have to hear more of the same and the backlash.

I lived a life like that. I know it wasn't the right way of handling it, but I lived in so much fear of my ex's reactions (he was exactly how you describe yourself) that I became very passive aggressive hoping he would figure it out so I wouldn't have to deal with what would come if I was direct and he didn't agree, because he never agreed because he was also a victim of some sort. He was always right. ALWAYS.

great step in admitting what your faults are. But not it is the time for you to do the work on them. I wouldn't even think about W. Just how you could help yourself.

[burned]

Thanks Ginger. I am REALLY struggling with this, especially because of your comments. They cut right to the core because they are just so accurate, and it's NOT the kind of person I want to be. I'm ashamed of myself. I hurt to think that I caused her so much pain. Is that empathy? When I post here, I always talk about how awful it is TO ME that she is leaving and that I don't get to "have her" anymore. But there are so many more layers to it than that. So many regrets, so many realizations. I'm nowhere near where I should be in terms of growth and personality and character. But I swear I'm already SO much better than I was a year ago, to the point that if only she gave me that one last chance she'd be quite impressed. (But she said she had no chances left to give.)

I'm reading these infidelity blogs and I keep coming up with the same realizations: 1. being angry doesn't make it better. 2. the affair may have been the only way she was able to "escape." But it still hurt. 3. the relationship was dysfunctional anyway, and even if it weren't for the affair, she probably would have left me anyway, and that's what hurts the most, the leaving (along with the pain I caused her, for so many years). 4. they talk about red flags, deceit, narcissism, all those things that "cheaters" do, but I did all of those things, too. Sometimes it seems strange that I'm not the one who cheated. But I was unfaithful in different ways. Were we just not right for each other?

And this urge I have to tell her these things, to show her the changes, to beg her to take one more look...all of that is just me trying to control how she feels so that I will feel better. I'm starting to get it.

[burned]

I lived a life like that.

It's just so confusing to me because in your case he was like me but HE cheated and left, right? And married AP? So everything I'm reading, all of the introspection, it's all blurred together. Like, I'm the abuser, for the most part, if you can call it that. But I didn't do "The One Worst Thing." I'm the one who is sitting here figuring it out and trying to make it better. But it's already too late for her.

Were there ever times when you though to yourself, "You know, if he hadn't cheated and left, if he had shown that he was making changes to those character traits, I would have been willing to forgive him and focus on the good things?"

I know you said to not think about her, and I'm getting there. But I am curious.

[burned]

There are moments when I wonder if maybe she really is just single, that OM really is out of the picture. But she's calmly and resolutely selling the house and she accepted my lowball settlement offer with no hesitation. So I tell myself, people here say 9 months is a short amount of time. So she might sell the house anyway but maybe she'll someday think about me and wonder how I'm doing. I know this is stuff people here have said over and over and over. But think I'm starting to FEEL it.

So in the meantime I will work on me. There's a LOT of work to do. The focus is on me now. But also, enough of that WW tough love stuff. From now on when she contacts, I'm immediately responsive and super cheerful. This will be easy and pleasant for her, because I'm not the person trying to make her see all of the reasons why she's making a mistake. She wants the D, I will give it to her, because it's not my job to force her to do something that makes her look bad in her own eyes, thereby making me feel better. That's old Burned crap.

This is a fairly major shift. Switching into more of a WAW strategy rather than WW. Or should I stay the course I'm already on?

[Ginger1]

Let's just say everyone was shocked it was him who left and not me.

I am fiercely loyal. I prayed everyday he would become the man I needed him to be. He left me when our daughter (mind you, our IVF, premature daughter) turned 6 months old. Began his cheating in my pregnancy (which I didn't know about until after we were divorced). When things weren't exactly how he envisioned them to be, and I wasn't putting him on a pedestal anymore, he peaced out. Now, I was committed, even as awful as he treated me because I married him and had a kid with him. But I imagine one day if he hadn't done the leaving and he never changed, and our R was detrimental to our daughter, I would have been the one to leave. Maybe not to cheat, but to leave. And I am very pro marriage, but I am more pro health of my child. And without change on his part, it would have been very unhealthy for her.

I
l'll be bluntly honest, I wish I left before we had a child. Put aside all that "well, if that would have happened, you wouldn't have had her". Well, I truly wish my daughter was someone else's child. It sounds awful, but it's true.

At the time, I would have been over the moon to see a change. To have him treat me like a human and his wife. I imagine, however, there would have been a point where the change was too late. I would have detached myself so hard as to protect myself. I was already in the process.

Needless to say, 11 years later, my ex has not changed. He is just as awful to his new wife, but she has no self esteem, so she deals. They have no kids together. She never had a kid of her own. He treats my daughter as he treated me unfortunately. Not as bad, but a lot is the same. So I am grateful she isn't around it 24/7 and she gets to see her mom treat herself with respect.

The cheating was bad. No doubt. But that was a symptom of a bigger problem. It is bad thing to do, but I believe there are other ways to betray your vows that are almost as awful. And this is coming from a woman who was cheated on in the worst way.

Whether or not it is too late in your current marriage, you could only benefit from making positive changes.

[Yail]

But she's calmly and resolutely selling the house and she accepted my lowball settlement offer with no hesitation. So I tell myself, people here say 9 months is a short amount of time. So she might sell the house anyway but maybe she'll someday think about me and wonder how I'm doing.

A) I have no doubt she will in the future think about you and wonder. She probably is now as well. But that doesn't mean she's willing to change anything right now. But you were her husband - that's significant. There's no way she will move on in her life and from this point forward never think of you. You shared something important.

B) I do think that the WAS does fully need to feel the absence of pressure. Selling the house and getting a divorce to us feels like really assertive decisions that show the S does not care about us. But I think a lot of the time it's just that they need to feel the freedom of no attachments so they can breathe and think clearly again.

When I was depressed in college I felt like everything in my life was smothering me/pressure. Once I was able to find room to breathe without the pushes and prods from academics/roommates/family I started feeling so much better and stronger. I could tackle my life at that point and be proactive. Before that I couldn't get out of my own way. But my depession was situational - not anything deep or chronic. So this may not apply.

[AnotherStander]

And do you know what Me is? I’m petty, vindictive, passive-aggressive, impatient, selfish, and generally callous. I hide my hateful tendencies under a thin veneer of charm, wit, niceness. I’m arrogant and entitled and prideful. I resent when things don’t work the way I want them to, because I think I’m special and don’t have to put in the work. I blame others for my lack of satisfaction in life. I’m not the good person I’ve duped people into thinking I am. I’m a victim and a fraud. I ask for advice and then I ridicule it, because “I know better.”

-cough- Why are you looking at me like that? I need to copy that someplace and paste it in whenever someone asks what NGS is because that is one of the most concise descriptions I've seen of it!

[burned]

Well I’m gonna cut that crap out. I have been, bit by bit.

But yeah. No kids, divorced, possible committed relationship with OM. How do you know your ex has cured his NGS, without ESP?

Anyway it’s for me. The regrets will subside eventually. The next lady will get a better version of me. These are the things I will keep telling myself.

[MoveFrwd]

I'm immediately responsive and super cheerful. This will be easy and pleasant for her, because I'm not the person trying to make her see all of the reasons why she's making a mistake.

Surely you must see how this sentence is still focused on her. It isn’t that you will be responsive because that’s the person you are....it’s that you’ll be responsive because that’s pleasant for her. Like you are still trying to cater to her?

How about “I will respond when it is convenient for me. Sometimes that will be immediately, sometimes an hour later, and sometimes a day or two later depending on my mood, the content, and the urgency.”

Stop trying to do ANYTHING for her life. Don’t try to make things easy. Or try to make things hard. Just do what you feel is the right thing. With no expectations.


And for the love of god. Stop worrying about whether she will see whether you’ve cured NGS until you’ve CURED NGS. I mean....real talk...who cares if she can see your changes at this point. You aren’t done. If you’re that worried about it - have you really actually changed...? Consider her a distant business partner that lives in China. LIVE YOUR FREAKIN LIFE.

[TJT]

Hey burned. Sorry for my absence, I was on vacation but just caught up on your thread.

On the D papers, first of all it sounds like you all just agreed to get the papers filled out and yes you did that work but I don't see where you told her you "wanted" the D and would take it through to filing. Maybe I missed that part if you did indeed say those things, but if none of that was said, then I don't see any reason why it doesn't make sense to let it be right now and if she asks, just let her know that you will work with her on whatever her decision is to move it forward.

I will agree with some of your confusion in certain areas. I wont hijack your thread too much here, but one of the things I really struggle with is the sheer legal ramification of staying married when your spouse is confirmed to be with an OP and doing who knows what. I know some states are different but it is very, very hard to reconcile what I know would be the best decision for me financially and protecting my future with what everyone here says to do for the sake of DBing (don't file unless you want to be divorced). Then other people here have said in my sitch that it's just a piece of paper and means nothing about the relationship, which I tend to agree with but clearly there is conversation here on your thread that leans toward initiating D being a bad idea if you don't actually want D.

Anyway... aside from that part, I think others have already said what I would have responded with to your previous posts (and Yail has had a few amazing gems in here that I need to copy down!) The only thing I would add is to maybe go back and read your own trails of thought in these threads. You should be able to see how you fluctuate SO hard in changing your responses/behaviors based on your W, one minute wanting to work on things and the next being mad that it didn't go the way you wanted. Someone else mentioned that you haven't really given it enough time and as much as I hate to hear that, too, I definitely believe it's true that it is still possible to happen in time.

That being said, I also see that you are having trouble with forgiving yourself and moving on from the things you did wrong in the past. And you had a great point when you said that maybe a big part of your W wanting a D was less about OM (if there is one, which again you seem to be unsure about/don't have proof of) and more about her just not being happy. That's definitely a valid scenario as much as that stings (and one I've entertained in my own sitch...although at this point I think our sitches are quite different).

Ultimately, I truly empathize with the fact that you feel in your heart you could be the man that your W wants and how bad it kicks rocks that W won't be around to see it. I mean, I feel that way about a lot of things that I don't think have any merit to causing my H to do what he's doing, but that I just want him to be able to see my growth as a person, because I love him and he's been my best friend and nobody else at this point is going to see that point A to point B growth but him. No matter how you slice it, that's just another form of LOSS. You have to mourn not just the past but also the future - and get to a point where you are able to make room for a new future which will be uncertain but could very well be better than anything in the past.

And if I'm honest, right now, I think you may be overestimating how much you have already changed. I am 1000% confident that you have learned things from this experience and are actively working on some things, but from your W's point of view, she's likely been so hurt that it's going to take very clear, consistent change for her to even entertain getting back together with you again (and even then it may be too late). I feel if your W came back to you tomorrow wanting to work on things, you would no doubt be putting in a ton of effort but probably would not be changed to the extent that she needs you to be, and it would be very easy for you to fall back into old behaviors and therefore constantly have to reassure her that you will "be different" and continue working on it, which isn't gonna cut it and if anything would sabotage your chances even more with her long-term (I think someone else mentioned this, about being ready to recon).

This is also why you need to realize that you need to do this for YOU, because you are losing more and more time every time you hold yourself back because of how she's reacting. She's given you what you need to know; learn from that and be thankful that she didn't just keep up the status quo where you may have never had to face these issues, because the same thing will apply with any future relationship. You will NOT be able to expect that you are a changed person and will be be a better H just because this happened to you and you now see it.

Also, one last thing that stuck out in your thread that others addressed but I will reiterate - you need to stop the whole "if she knew I was this way, she should have known/understood when I didn't take her seriously." All you need to do any time you want to say something like that is turn it back on yourself. This isn't about whether you see things black and white, whether you are a good listener or not, etc. This is about your interest and attention to your W, and anyone who truly "adored" their W like you said you do doesn't NEED to see things the exact same way as the other... all you need is an actual interest and care for what your W may be feeling and thinking, not just yourself.

Now, if you reflect on that and find that you actually simply aren't interested in your W as a person, and you are just rewriting history as if you liked her and were happier than you really were, that's a different story. But that's where you need to evaluate and differentiate between things that your character flaws and things that just weren't right for you in the M.

Either way, even if it wasn't a factor with M specifically, you are spot on about all those things you called out that you need to really dig into to pinpoint all the drivers behind why you behave in certain ways. I respect you immensely, for admitting to those things (and yeah, it's fairly easy to do on the internet to a bunch of strangers, but the fact that you are openly stating them shows healthy progress for you).

Now work on being uber vigilant and mindful about recognizing when you are behaving in a way that's driven by one of those things. I know you said before you don't want to be having to "think" about everything you do in life all the time, but honestly you may have to do that for a while if you've got bad habits and thinking patterns that you really want to change. And there are likely other people in your life that will benefit from you working on those things, too...

[burned]

You guys. Thanks for keeping me in line. When today is over I’ll delve into some of those deeper issues. But for the moment I need to address something else.

This morning I’m going to the house to get most of the rest of my stuff. W has been bugging me to do this for a month, and I’ve been taking my time. I don’t work on her schedule anymore. But finally when she said she wants to get the D moving, I said to myself, OK, well, might as well get that done, too.

So I’ve been reading a well-known blog by a woman who takes a snarky approach to infidelity. Helps me keep my anger level a bit higher, in a self-protective sort of way. She has some good insight into the tricks manipulators play.

Anyway, just now, out of the blue, W texts me a video she saw, thought you’d like this, smiley face. And “Hope it goes well today, let me know if you need anything.”

What the TF?!

Didn’t respond. It wasn’t a question. And here I am thinking she wants nothing more to do with me could she BE any more obvious? I had a split second feeling of “Oh, there’s my W” and then I literally laughed, thought to myself, “I see through you now,” started the coffee maker, and went to take a dump.

I got this.

[TJT]

This sounds like guilt to me. I don't know what she'd be trying to do to manipulate you in this case. But since she knows you are being inconvenienced by something she has asked you to do, she's trying to make herself feel better about it by exchanging niceties.

You did good not responding.

[burned]

Good not responding. Bad, ascribing mailicious intent to something neutral. I kind of scuk at relationships. Maybe I’m a robot.

You could call it “impression management” in the sense that she cheated on me and left, but still wants to think she’s a decent person and that I’m fine with everything, blah blah blah polite, look how good I’m being about destroying my M. Well, that’s my anger, I own it. She can do what she wants to do.

It wasn’t as unpleasant of an experience as I thought it would be. I feel like I’ll bounce back a bit quicker. There’s also a weird sense of freedom that is starting to emerge.

[Ginger1]

Honestly, I don’t think she’s trying to manipulate you either.

I don’t think she wishes you harm, I think she might actually want you to be happy.

She wanted out and she got it. I don’t think she ever wanted to directly hurt you. Her affair was not right, if she wanted out, she should have gotten out first, then began dating. But I think she just wants to be happy, but doesn’t want you to be miserable. There are spouses on here who got out had the A and still feel the need to make the LBS miserable. I don’t think your ex falls in that category.

Your best road to healing ? Just live your life. Make changes you want for yourself and the rest will fall into place.

[Ginger1]

I’m also going to reiterate. There is more ways of destroying a marriage other than cheating.

[TJT]

Good not responding. Bad, ascribing mailicious intent to something neutral.

I'm really impressed that you recognized this burned. I was going to say it in my response but I didn't, and you picked it up anyway. Yes, you definitely have to stop ascribing malicious intent.

Even with my H, my mom keeps saying things like "how can you be so calm about this, he just did XYZ to you!!" and I remind her that yes, he did those things and it's impacted me greatly and he should have been a better person to know how it would impact me, but at the end of the day this is HIS issue, and it's not like he sat in a bunker for a year and planned out all the ways he was going to hurt me. It doesn't make his actions less crappy, but it's the difference between "this is a terrible person" and "this person did some terrible things".

You could call it “impression management” in the sense that she cheated on me and left, but still wants to think she’s a decent person ...

See above. She likely still is a decent person, she just did some things the wrong way, as Ginger has pointed out, and probably does realize that. Doesn't make it better, but it doesn't make her a bad person as a whole and I'm sure you know that better than anyone.

and that I’m fine with everything, blah blah blah polite, look how good I’m being about destroying my M. Well, that’s my anger, I own it. She can do what she wants to do.

More blame shifting. Be angry if you need to be but at least look at what's making you angry with more precision. For example, it's not that she's singlehandedly destroying your M. You've admitted that much. So figure out what it is specifically that you're so angry about so you can reframe it and address that more appropriately and help make it go away over time.

[Ready2Change]

How you doing?

[burned]

Divorce proceedings are going about as well as you’d expect when dealing with a manipulative, vindictive, entitled b’tch. I finally got to see her horns. The depth of darkness in this WW’s soul, Sandi’s descriptions don’t even scratch the surface.

I’m just done. I can’t wait for this misery to end. Reconciliation is such a turn off at this point that if she ever came back to bilk me out of more of my dignity, I’d tell her to pound sand. Someone took a picture of me for the first time since BD and I had no idea how much better I look after losing all the weight. 35, no kids, graduate degree, I’ll have plenty of new people to choose from who aren’t insane. And now I know what kinds of people to avoid.

Go ahead and hit me with the 2x4s like any of this was my fault. I didn’t deserve this. None of us did.

(Looking forward to tomorrow morning when I’ll wake up pining for her again. And the cycle will continue. This skucs.)

[TJT]

Go ahead and hit me with the 2x4s like any of this was my fault. I didn’t deserve this. None of us did.

I want to address this part first, to be absolutely clear: nothing that ANY of us have hit you with here to hold you accountable for your part is equivalent to saying you deserved what your W did or how she is behaving. I think I may have even said that earlier to you at some point.

You are 500% correct that NONE of us deserved these things despite our flaws. Other people have choices too and if they weren't happy, they could have gone about the "resolution" much, much differently to spare us so much hurt. Sure we may have been hurt at some level either way, anytime a "breakup" happens let alone a marriage ending, but doing it in a way that shows both real effort for the relationship and care for the other person was likely possible in the majority of our sitches.

So please don't take any of our 2x4s or accountability talks as you deserving what you're going through. All we mean to do is help you redirect your own behavior so that you can be more effective as a person overall.

To that end:

Divorce proceedings are going about as well as you’d expect when dealing with a manipulative, vindictive, entitled b’tch. I finally got to see her horns. The depth of darkness in this WW’s soul, Sandi’s descriptions don’t even scratch the surface.

I don't think it serves you to direct your anger to her in this way. Be angry, but don't go to her level by name-calling, etc. By doing so you are embodying the exact thing you hate. As a complete third party to your sitch, it comes off very unattractive even with me knowing the ways she has hurt you. In fact one of the key things I've made note of to look for in a new partner is how he talks about past relationships - and unless any of his exes were truly mega actually insane, I will probably think of it as a red flag if he immediately starts spewing off that so and so was a B, etc. The reason for that is because (in my opinion) it will show a level of maturity and stability in a man if he can talk about past relationships with tact. It doesn't mean that I will expect them to talk completely positively about that person, but there's a way you can acknowledge bad things people have done to you without it reflecting badly on you.

I am keeping the same thing in mind when I think about how I will talk about what's happened with me and my H, even when it comes to our mutual friends and family, because at the end of the day I don't want to give anyone ANY reason to look at how I'm behaving and think "hmm, maybe THAT's why he left her!" (or to give my H reason to hate me - although yes, I do realize he has given me plenty of reasons to hate him). I am hurt, but I am not crazy. If deep down I still care for my H, all I can do is feel sorry for him that he's going through something that has caused him to behave in the ways he's behaving. I am resentful and angry and all of the things too, but that's not who I am as a person and ultimately it won't really help accomplish anything.

So try to find a catharsis for your hurt and anger that is more productive, and position any feelings about your W in an empathetic way. For example, "I feel sorry for her that she can't find a way to work through her pain in a more constructive way" (and don't think this with a sarcastic sentiment either..you have to remember her behavior is an expression of her pain too).

The number one thing for you to remember is that no matter who it is in life, whether it's your W, your boss, bad drivers, anyone - YOU can control how you react to that, and how you consistently react forms your character. So don't let people who hurt you keep you down and perpetuate the issues you want to address in yourself. Rise above them and ONLY own your parts, not theirs.

[DejaVu6]

TJT... you are wise beyond your years. I was thinking the same thing. I try very hard to speak respectfully of my H. I know he didn’t set out to do this to me and that he ultimately regrets how things happened even though he is steadfast in ending our MR. If he could go back and do the right thing (speak up about how he was feeling four years ago), I think he would. But that is in the past and he is only looking forward now. If I were him, I would be doing the same thing, I think. Anyway...we are all very, very hurt about how things went down in our MRs and anger almost always follows that kind of feeling. Try to keep a lid on the anger and deal with the hurt. (((Burned)))

[MoveFrwd]

Burned - I hope you are doing ok. The details of going through the divorce proceedings can be tough. Try to take as much 'personal' resentment and impact out of it and try to treat this like a business deal on your end. I know thats easier said than done, but it would be the best for you.

I can’t wait for this misery to end.

Unfortunately, the misery wont end just because the marriage will. It's up to you to take control of your own happiness and your own self. I feel like I already know the answer....but how is your GAL going?

[Ginger1]

So, what made you call her a spiteful vindictive self-entitled Biotch? Did something change?

I understand we have bad days, and just hate their guts, but is that was she really is?

You swing from admitting your serious faults to blame shifting everything on to her.

I'll be bluntly honest. By what your own admissions are of how you treated her and how you acted, minus the affair, I could see why she would want to get out, and it looked like she was trying to stay in there but you weren't hearing her. Especially if she was looking to start a family. I love my daughter more than life, but often I feel guilty that her dad is her dad. he loves her and she loves him but he doesn't know how to treat people and she sees it.

The A is not the way out and that is very hurtful and wrong.

But, I would just take the focus off of her and see what you can do for yourself to grow. I think your admissions are actually honorable, most men stay in denial, like my ex, or just don't see it, but you do. You really have that going for you. This could change your life and future for the better.

[burned]

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