Part I:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2804271#Post2804271Part II:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2806091#Post2806091Part III:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2808247#Post2808247Part IV:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2810834#Post2810834Part V:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2818550&page=1Part VI:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2818551#Post2818551Part VII:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2819793#Post2819793Part VIII:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2822754#Post2822754Part IX:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2827495#Post2827495Last Post from Sandi:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2829737#Post2829737It was only after I started the DB process that I realized not only the contributions I made that lead to this, but also the deep-rooted causes of why I was who I was. I would have never addressed my NGS if it was not pointed out to me. I would not have started the process of finding my balls. And I certainly would not have made such strong bonds with a bunch of folks from all walks of life here. This board is my primary source of support.
Thanks for sharing those thoughts with us, Pain. For me, it has always been about the individual person who is reaching out for help. It is seeing that individual rising from the ashes of their MR and refusing to allow it to define themselves as a loser. It has been such an encouragement to see people discover their own sense of self value and to make remarkable changes in their lives. IMHO, you have been one of those people. That's not to say your story has ended, b/c our personal stories never end as long as we have a breath left in us. I just mean that you are going to be one of those who will be able to look back on your journaling and see the distance you traveled.
Thank you. That means a lot to me. I am getting the same feedback from others as well about the changes I have went through these last 5 months. I still have not brought myself to look back at how I was when I first came here versus how I am now. Maybe once this chapter of my life closes completely I can revisit and see how much I have grown.
I'm not sure if these are common thoughts that the most LBS goes through or if we're the minority. All I know is that no matter how many people tell me how things will get better, the belief of that is simply not there. I put my hope into that thought, as evidenced by my posts on coincidental sunrises, and songs, and whatnot.
When you say the belief of that is simply not there, are you referring to the belief your MR will get better...….or your life will get better....should there be a divorce?
If you asked me this question three months ago, I would have responded that there is no belief that my MR would get better. Now, it is different.
Now it's more about my life and where it is going and how
I can control my happiness, regardless of the outcome. I am getting stronger and more confident in myself, but I am still...scared about the thought of D. I am trying to avoid it as much as possible but I know that I need to start getting prepared for it. Living as is is barely tolerable. I deserve better. D4 deserves better. If all of the other options fail and divorce is the only way out...then I need to go through with it.
But right now, it's just really dark, really lonely, and is killing my self-esteem.
The words that jumped out to me in that paragraph "is killing my self-esteem". You may be writing from a place of deep hurt on what's suppose to be a joyous occasion, and may not want to expound on it. However, if you don't mind.....can you explain how it is killing your self-esteem? I think living under the same roof is affecting your self-esteem and keeps your anger right beneath the boiling point. But, that's JMHO. Who am "I" to tell any LBS how to feel? I'm not.
Sandi, it was a very depressing morning yesterday. Christmas historically been wonderful and felt like a wonderful, surreal dream when I was spending it with WW. Yesterday when WW left with D4 to celebrate Xmas with "friends" (OM), it just reminded me again of the depressing days before I met my W. Those thoughts then snowballed into a total negative thought process and took me to a dark Christmas day in which I ended up in a screaming match with my father after he told me that no one wanted to date me because I was too fat. So...PTSD.
Even though I try not to let living under the same roof affect me, it does. I cannot lie about it. But I also know that I deserve to sleep in MY house in MY bed. Right now, the anger is being kept at bay, which is hard to do considering the circumstances. I do my best to GAL on the days I share the house, but sometimes there are periods where I cannot really go anywhere. Yesterday was one of those days.
Both spouses contribute to the breakdown of a MR, IMHO. Nobody knows better than the other spouse. I don't think it makes either of them a
failure at everything else in their life. Perhaps the MR fails......but it does not mean either of the spouses are less human, or that they will never be able to feel happiness again. Thank God that our worthiness as a human being is not measured by just one relationship; just one job or career; or on one chance in life. ((hugs))
I know it takes two, Sandi. Two to make a marriage work. And I know my part of the breakdown in our marriage and I think WW knows as well. I just go back to the days when I was being warned constantly that something was wrong and I brushed her off, while making matters worse when I go on my angry and hurtful rants, holding affection back, and outright ignoring her. I wonder if I am still making the same mistakes (the no attention part) or if it is the process I should employ for this.
[quote=sandi2][quote=pain18]I have been told I am a wonderful man and that I do not deserve this. I really don't know how to respond to that anymore.
My suggestion is to quietly say, "Thank you". No need to discuss the sitch. You know, we often tell one another on the board that we deserve better, etc. One day, a Newbie told me that everyone deserved better. In other words, it wasn't helping him for me to tell him things like that. Sometimes, friends, family. or co-workers want to say something comforting, but don't know what to say. So, just know they mean well, and leave it at that.
I don't know if your M will last, however, I believe you will be okay if it doesn't. (See, there I go again, telling you that you'll be okay). The failure of a MR, does not determine you or your W fail as individual people. Some people have their identify so enmeshed or attached to the M, they cannot see themselves as an individual. They cannot foresee themselves being happy without their current spouse. They don't know how to go about having a "new" life, b/c everything about them has been defined by the M. Men with NGS may find it difficult to imagine carving out a life without their XW, b/c they saw their identification as being someone's husband. Same applies for some women who centered their life to having a home, raising children, being a good wife, etc.
I don't think anyone knows if my M will last much longer, Sandi. And that just is the "right" answer for when folks come on here looking for an answer to that question. I know I will be ok...I have to be. I just am afraid of going through the dating and courtship process again if I have to move on from current WW. The unknown is scary when it comes to dating. Even moreso when I consider the history I have had with dating. I think that is what is most upsetting. History repeating itself.
Changing the subject just a bit...…….what have you been doing to physically work off your pent up anger?
Sending you a big hug (((Pain))).
I have been lifting, starting to meet new people, and starting to truly relinquish my anger. It was after WW pointed out to me that I was acting like an a$$hole that I had to look at myself and ask if the behavior I am exhibiting now was how I used to be before BD. And I would have to agree with her and say "Yes."
But I'd be lying if I would not have any justification for my feelings nor would others who sympathize with my plight. And I would also be fooling myself into believing that I can anger my way towards a better life because that is definitely not working.
Day 150.
Day 151,
Well, I made it through the holiday. I have a few more painful dates coming up, but none of them should be as bad as Christmas.
I was able to GAL on Christmas day. So much that it took the entire part of the evening. And in that time I got 12 phone calls, 7 text messages (2 from D4, which is funny because she thought that I was being passive-aggressive to WW and not talking to her so she used D4 to see if I would respond.) I also got a text from her best friend about meeting her to pick up our gifts. I have not heard from her friend in months and she texts me all of a sudden? Obviously I was busy with my life as WW was busy with hers. I finally caller her and told her that I am ok. I get the "why did you not respond to me?" Told her that the place I went to did not allow cell phones and my phone was silenced. Does she believe me? Does it matter?
She went NC all day yesterday. As soon as I came home, she closed her bedroom door. End night.
Today is more NC except a list of clothes to pack for D4 since they will both be out next week. No response from me. No response necessary.
My moods go up and down still. Some days I'm pumped to be making so much progress and how I am starting to be thankful that this happened. The other part is the betrayal and her continuing to lie. This is not the woman I fell in love with and married. Sadly, I don't think this is going to change anytime soon. But I do continue to change myself. I have to. I need to.
And I look ahead to 2019 and all I want, no NEED, for this continuing nightmare to end. For as much improvement and process as I am making, it still hurts. Each step, each day, each thought hurts.
I saw someone posting about the DBing timeline and progress. They responded to someone who said they have been DBing for 11 months and that it is still near the damn beginning. Wow. So I'm still in the infancy of this thing, aren't I?
But on the plus side, 5 more days until this year is history. I'm hoping 2019 treats me better than 2018 did. I can't/don't want to have this continue. I want some kind of happy ending to this. I don't know what form it will take. One road is "easier" and gives me a better chance of happiness (option to D) or I continue with using this time of limbo and hope for the other option while continuing to improve myself.
Day 151,
Well, I made it through the holiday. I have a few more painful dates coming up, but none of them should be as bad as Christmas.
I was able to GAL on Christmas day. So much that it took the entire part of the evening. And in that time I got 12 phone calls, 7 text messages (2 from D4, which is funny because she thought that I was being passive-aggressive to WW and not talking to her so she used D4 to see if I would respond.) I also got a text from her best friend about meeting her to pick up our gifts. I have not heard from her friend in months and she texts me all of a sudden? Obviously I was busy with my life as WW was busy with hers. I finally caller her and told her that I am ok. I get the "why did you not respond to me?" Told her that the place I went to did not allow cell phones and my phone was silenced. Does she believe me? Does it matter?
She went NC all day yesterday. As soon as I came home, she closed her bedroom door. End night.
Today is more NC except a list of clothes to pack for D4 since they will both be out next week. No response from me. No response necessary.
My moods go up and down still. Some days I'm pumped to be making so much progress and how I am starting to be thankful that this happened. The other part is the betrayal and her continuing to lie. This is not the woman I fell in love with and married. Sadly, I don't think this is going to change anytime soon. But I do continue to change myself. I have to. I need to.
And I look ahead to 2019 and all I want, no NEED, for this continuing nightmare to end. For as much improvement and process as I am making, it still hurts. Each step, each day, each thought hurts.
I saw someone posting about the DBing timeline and progress. They responded to someone who said they have been DBing for 11 months and that it is still near the damn beginning. Wow. So I'm still in the infancy of this thing, aren't I?
But on the plus side, 5 more days until this year is history. I'm hoping 2019 treats me better than 2018 did. I can't/don't want to have this continue. I want some kind of happy ending to this. I don't know what form it will take. One road is "easier" and gives me a better chance of happiness (option to D) or I continue with using this time of limbo and hope for the other option while continuing to improve myself.
Its a hard decision for us to initiate D or leave man. I am in the same spot. I have been handling this since August. Really trying to DB since end of September, finally doing hard DB now. But I am feeling the same "how long do I want to deal with this if she doesnt leave or file for D?" Should I just live in limbo land in my MBR at my house forever and ever while she continues A and hope it fizzles or should I just drop the hammer and move on and enjoy being single?
I am honestly enjoying GAL a lot. The part I miss is female attention and honestly the attention I have been getting from the opposite sex has ramped up significantly in the last couple of weeks.
Its a hard decision for us to initiate D or leave man. I am in the same spot. I have been handling this since August. Really trying to DB since end of September, finally doing hard DB now. But I am feeling the same "how long do I want to deal with this if she doesnt leave or file for D?" Should I just live in limbo land in my MBR at my house forever and ever while she continues A and hope it fizzles or should I just drop the hammer and move on and enjoy being single?
It is. I am in the same spot. When I have mentioned D, it came out of a place of emotion. And making emotionally-based decisions is not a good thing to do. It has burned me before and made this sitch all the more difficult to deal with. You've been DBing for...two months now? It's going to take much longer to see and feel the complete change you're putting yourself through. I'm at month five. The vets here say it takes 12-24 months to fully DB...maybe longer. The good thing that I am noticing though, is that I am not as hopeless about the time aspect of it as I used to be. And I look back at who I was back then and who I am now. Big change and continuing to do so. Also, I look back and ask, if WW and I ever did R, would that be a good thing? My answer would be a firm "No". I was not fully DBed. I still have things I need to work on in terms of myself. Biggest thing? Continuing to get my balls back.
I am honestly enjoying GAL a lot. The part I miss is female attention and honestly the attention I have been getting from the opposite sex has ramped up significantly in the last couple of weeks.
That's great to hear. All of those little good things add up. Keep on being and improving you, amigo.
Ya I haven't been going that long. I can tell a difference though. Been working hard on my PMA. I have noticed that when I am confident I get noticed a lot. I notice my WW gives me a little more respect as well. WW was being critical of stupid little things. Temp checks. I told her "I need you to stop criticizing every little thing I do" and instead of her arguing she simply said "ok". That was a first.
waddup fellas, so this is where all the cool ppl hanging at now?
pain, reading your sitch man, much ((pain)). I've been lurking and reading the posts and trying to apply what I can when I can in my daily learnings and life. I appreciate all the time you take in sharing because although it is personal for you, it's also personal for so many of us who walk that same walk.
Day 152,
I'm puttering along, which I guess is considered progress. No major GAL plans tonight. I haven't been spending time with D4 much so I'm hoping to get some quality time in before she goes to see grandparents. I'll be by myself most of next week so I should have an opportunity to really engage in social GAL activities.
Adam, I appreciate you reading through my sitch. And I'm glad that you are applying the techniques to yours. We're all on a similar journey.
I am following ST's sitch now and I saw the following response from Sandi. Her detailed explanation of the WW mindset and how to approach the WW and sitch continues to be a tremendous asset to me.
Her "explanation" of not considering it an A b/c in her mind she had already left you...….is exactly how a WW thinks. She feeds herself her own b.s. It's how she justifies her choices and behavior.
IMHO, the WW should receive a consistent message from the H she has betrayed, and currently threatens to D. The message should be demonstrated in his actions. It should tell her where he stands with her disrespectful behavior.
I remember when WW told me this early last summer after I told her (yelled) WW was cheating on me. Reading this makes me feel less crazy and gives me further clarification of my WW mindset and how much she has manipulated not only me, but her circle of friends and family.
You may wonder where I am going with all of this. It's about consistency. Sure, sometimes there may be something you need to tweak...…...but the message of your actions should be consistent with what you are saying to her. Thus far, you have verbalized a great deal of your message, right? Are your actions matching your words? And are they consistent?
From what I've seen in LBH's, it's the little details that seem to throw them off track. My advice is to know the main message you wish to relay through your actions. You may need to sit and think about it for a bit.
I still struggle with this, but it is becoming a little easier to express my message to her regarding my feelings to her waywardness. The key word here is
consistency. That is what I need to do.
If your overall message is "I'm done" or "I'm dumping you b/c you betrayed me", then what actions relay that message? You declined the invitation......which was smart. You told her you didn't want to hang out with her......which was a little harsh for some, but it's certainly consistent with the action. Maybe we can think of some general responses that line up with your main message......and be able to keep it short and simple. I've noticed that some LBH's get very wordy in some of their responses to the WW. It comes off sounding like he's teaching a class!
I am very guilty of this. And everytime I talk I say more than I mean to say and I end up kicking myself for saying too much and giving her some power back. I anticipate another such conversation soon.
You already suspect these moves by the WW as being temp checks or some other form of manipulation. Something else some WW's do is try to "normalize" their family activities, etc. She may be cake eating or whatever, but it's usually an act of manipulation.Some LBH's make the mistake of thinking she is "reaching out" or that "she's making baby steps". No, she's not doing either one. As long as there is any other guy in the picture (regardless of what she claims), and as long as she has shown no effort in making amends for her waywardness...…..then the LBH should not jump at her suggestion to eat out or have some other form of family activity together. Why? B/c she can't have the marriage and family.....and other "relationships" that exclude her H. She doesn't get to have the best of both worlds. She has to realize that she is losing something as a result of her bad decisions. As long as she gets to play house & family, she's not going to recognize much loss.
The going out to dinner crap happened twice in the last two weeks. And I knew it felt wrong. Ovr even
told me so and told me to knock it off. She get clever sometimes by getting take out, but I am not sure how to approach that. I think being truly distant this next week will allow me to learn more and get more insight on how to handle these temp checks.
The WW needs to wonder if she's losing her H. That's why she snoops in your things and the bedroom, to see if there is any indication of some other woman. Currently, she doesn't want to be your wife.....but she doesn't want to be replaced, either. (Crazy, I know.)
She asks me sometimes about me going on dates and to "let her know" so that she can "make arrangements to watch D4".
If she believes her H is dumping her, she'll try several things to temp check his emotional attachment to the MR. The H has to be strong enough to walk away from the temptation, if he's going to be consistent in his message/stance. When the little details in life confuse him, he needs to regroup and remember his overall message he's explaining through his actions. What message is his WW getting by watching his actions?
Slowly she is realizing that. I am seeing the crap WW is pulling and I am getting tired of it. Check my day 151 post.
Marching forward...
Ugh...just got off a phone call with WW. She basically "understood" that I'm all business since I chose not to chat friendly anymore and I never acknowledged her after she sent me a pack list for D4's trip. So I asked what she needed me to do. And she just said a response would be nice. I told her that if she sends a list I would respond.
She thinks I am being rude and a jerk, which I validated. I told her that I will work on responding better when she does call or text me. She feels like we should have a schedule of communication if it works for me. I said that I always have responded when it comes to our child and finances and felt that a schedule was not necessary. If there is a problem, I let her know. She said back that she just want to know how D4's day was and stuff like that.
I strongly feel that she is losing me more daily, but she is also making me feel bad for being so distant and unresponsive.
I need to continue to enforce my boundaries, but when she does this crap I soften up (NGS most likely) and feel like an awful person.
She was crying in the background. I asked her if she was ok. She said no. She was still mad at me for not responding and worrying her when I did not pick up my phone or respond to my texts. She had a lot of vulgar names for me.
I know I cannot talk to her about why I am acting the way I am acting...but I feel like she is not getting it. Or that she is getting it, but is furiously trying to make me feel bad for the way I should be acting towards her.
I don't know if she is manipulating me or if those feelings are valid. I am doing my best to validate, but wow...I feel pretty bad right now.
She's either really good or I am still really weak.
Pain,
She is probably doing both manipulation and feeling worried. It never seems like it is just one thing. I must have missed it, did the texts have to do with D4 or finances? If so why did you not respond. If not why are you feeling bad. Don't stand for name calling and vulgarity. Set the boundary. My W is getting it figured out fast that when she does this I hang up, walk away, or ask her to leave depending on the sitch.
Ugh...just got off a phone call with WW. She basically "understood" that I'm all business since I chose not to chat friendly anymore and I never acknowledged her after she sent me a pack list for D4's trip. So I asked what she needed me to do. And she just said a response would be nice. I told her that if she sends a list I would respond.
She thinks I am being rude and a jerk, which I validated. I told her that I will work on responding better when she does call or text me. She feels like we should have a schedule of communication if it works for me. I said that I always have responded when it comes to our child and finances and felt that a schedule was not necessary. If there is a problem, I let her know. She said back that she just want to know how D4's day was and stuff like that.
I strongly feel that she is losing me more daily, but she is also making me feel bad for being so distant and unresponsive.
I need to continue to enforce my boundaries, but when she does this crap I soften up (NGS most likely) and feel like an awful person.
She was crying in the background. I asked her if she was ok. She said no. She was still mad at me for not responding and worrying her when I did not pick up my phone or respond to my texts. She had a lot of vulgar names for me.
I know I cannot talk to her about why I am acting the way I am acting...but I feel like she is not getting it. Or that she is getting it, but is furiously trying to make me feel bad for the way I should be acting towards her.
I don't know if she is manipulating me or if those feelings are valid. I am doing my best to validate, but wow...I feel pretty bad right now.
She's either really good or I am still really weak.
Just validate and continue with your consistent behavior. Sandi has drilled that into my skull. Don't change up to meet something that she wants. I get the same "You never talk to me, you don't respond to my messages anymore". I just don't engage. I have already explained to my WW that I am not going to interact with her while she is in an A. We shouldn't have to explain ourselves over and over again.
Why does she need you to tell her how D4 is doing? Can't she ask D4? Your WW is temp checking you like mad, she is trying to manipulate you with her feelings regardless if they are valid or not. Just tell her "I understand that its frustrating, I am busy". Maybe something like that? That is how I responded. It is no longer a priority for us to respond instantaneously to WW every time they ring the bell.
I was always extremely responsive to my WW. Then she stopped being responsive because she was going out to dinner with OM while traveling and drinking and living it up while she was having an A and she keeps having the A! I remember the feeling I had wondering why my WW who used to always call me and talk to me was now avoiding me while she was out with another man. The anxiety she caused me, the hurt she caused me by moving forward with her desire to screw another man. So, even though it feels odd, I forced myself to not be available for WW. I just can't do it for my own sanity. Why would I make myself available to someone who did this to me and keeps doing it?
Pain,
She is probably doing both manipulation and feeling worried. It never seems like it is just one thing. I must have missed it, did the texts have to do with D4 or finances? If so why did you not respond. If not why are you feeling bad. Don't stand for name calling and vulgarity. Set the boundary. My W is getting it figured out fast that when she does this I hang up, walk away, or ask her to leave depending on the sitch.
TF, I sense that it's both. She "accepted" my new method of communication. One text she sent me was a list things I need to pack for D4. I did not respond. Felt like I did not need to. She felt otherwise and that I need to acknowledge that I got the message. Fair enough. I told her I will do a better job at responding to things pertaining to D4. She calls and gets upset when I don't respond because apparently she had an important message for me regarding D4 and I did not have the courtesy to follow up. I told her I would do a better job of responding to calls I don't answer (at my own time, of course).
I really want to bust this possible D. But it feels like I'm just pushing it faster in that direction.
ST, I have not used the word A in our conversations. She feels like the R with OM is genuine and will vigorously defend it. If I counter, all it would do is cause an unnecessary fight. And that is something I just don't have the energy for.
Pain... are you being rude? Remember...if you are going to be business-like, you should treat her like you would a business partner or a neighbour. Ask yourself... if my business partner were to send me that kind of a list, would I let that person know that I had received it? I'm pretty sure I would. I think you are forgetting that your WW is confused and in her own kind of pain. Yes, she is causing you pain as well but is it as calculating and vindictive as you seem to think it is? I keep thinking about DnJ's famous mantra... Choose better, not bitter. What are you choosing?
Anyway... that's my two cents. Of course, I only read one side of things and I don't know your WW. Certainly vulgar names are not okay. To me, it just sounds like both of you are really, really hurting which is the fuel that is feeding the anger you both have towards one another. Drop the rope...with love. Give her the space she needs to figure herself out. Give yourself that space too. If not for your WW's sake or your sake, then for your beautiful daughter's sake. She needs both of you to be there for her and not wrapped up in a bitter feud. I KNOW how much this hurts. I am right there with you. I loved my H as much as I loved anyone and he tossed that aside after 13 years as if it meant NOTHING. That HURTS like H3LL!!! But it is not going to destroy me or turn me into a person that my kids would be ashamed of. Kids learn by example and pay attention to what you do, not what you say. Show your D the best Pain you can be. Choose better! (((Pain)))
Why does she need you to tell her how D4 is doing? Can't she ask D4? Your WW is temp checking you like mad, she is trying to manipulate you with her feelings regardless if they are valid or not. Just tell her "I understand that its frustrating, I am busy". Maybe something like that? That is how I responded. It is no longer a priority for us to respond instantaneously to WW every time they ring the bell.
Exactly.
Pain,
My understanding is that you are "Nesting" with your wife. You are both in the same house, but one parent is "Scarce" while the other parent is parenting. Correct me if I am wrong.
You are still walking on egg shells with your W.
Pain... are you being rude? Remember...if you are going to be business-like, you should treat her like you would a business partner or a neighbour. Ask yourself... if my business partner were to send me that kind of a list, would I let that person know that I had received it? I'm pretty sure I would. I think you are forgetting that your WW is confused and in her own kind of pain. Yes, she is causing you pain as well but is it as calculating and vindictive as you seem to think it is? I keep thinking about DnJ's famous mantra... Choose better, not bitter. What are you choosing?
Anyway... that's my two cents. Of course, I only read one side of things and I don't know your WW. Certainly vulgar names are not okay. To me, it just sounds like both of you are really, really hurting which is the fuel that is feeding the anger you both have towards one another. Drop the rope...with love. Give her the space she needs to figure herself out. Give yourself that space too. If not for your WW's sake or your sake, then for your beautiful daughter's sake. She needs both of you to be there for her and not wrapped up in a bitter feud. I KNOW how much this hurts. I am right there with you. I loved my H as much as I loved anyone and he tossed that aside after 13 years as if it meant NOTHING. That HURTS like H3LL!!! But it is not going to destroy me or turn me into a person that my kids would be ashamed of. Kids learn by example and pay attention to what you do, not what you say. Show your D the best Pain you can be. Choose better! (((Pain)))
That is a great analogy, DV6. She is my business partner. I need to acknowledge that I got the communication. I told WW as such during the call.
I know WW is hurting to some extent. I am still trying to accept the fact that she is in pain. My thoughts are "she brought this upon herself." But I also know that this was a result of our MR up to BD.
And I coaxed her to tell me what she is calling me. So she responded. It hurt, but I validated and told her that I will do a better job communicating.
Why does she need you to tell her how D4 is doing? Can't she ask D4? Your WW is temp checking you like mad, she is trying to manipulate you with her feelings regardless if they are valid or not. Just tell her "I understand that its frustrating, I am busy". Maybe something like that? That is how I responded. It is no longer a priority for us to respond instantaneously to WW every time they ring the bell.
Exactly.
Pain,
My understanding is that you are "Nesting" with your wife. You are both in the same house, but one parent is "Scarce" while the other parent is parenting. Correct me if I am wrong.
You are still walking on egg shells with your W.
I am. I try to be home as little as possible, but my 9-5 makes me scarce. I parent on weekends and evenings. You are not wrong.
And you are right about the egg shell part. But I also cannot stomp on them because that's a passive-aggressive tactic NGS use.
Day 153,
Another day in limbo. I saw this from TF’s thread and again reminded me why I need to be patient and not rush things in case we ever R:
TF,
Think about these two lesser the evil situations and let me know your answer.
Situation #1. Your W puts your children first before her PERCEIVED happiness and ends her A and calls off the divorced. You stay married for the sake of the kids but she never becomes fully committed to you again because she believes there is something better out there. You spend the next 15 years wondering if she files again after your youngest is out of the house.
Situation #2. She continues with D and continues relationship with OM. You take time to heal and continue to better yourself. After the dust settles and your emotions start to stabilize you start to realize that your ex had many flaws that you didn't see. Once healed maybe you start another relationship with a woman who is way better then your ex in all aspects of life. She likes to work through problems not run from them. Maybe your ex comes to her senses and wants to reconcile and will do anything to EARN another chance with you.
I don't know about you but I would take option 2 everyday and twice on Sundays. Yes it's a risk that she doesn't come back , but she has to choose to be with you for it to work out long-term.
I would take option 2 as well.
Pain, I forget, are you on IHS or live separately?
Pain, I forget, are you on IHS or live separately?
It’s a hybrid. WW is at the house three days per week and I’m out, then we switch and I stay at the house while she stays with OM.
I make myself unavailable on Sundays since we share the house that day.
It’s done so that’s D4 stays under one roof.
I am going to see if I can get my house. I'll need to hit my 401k, but I think I'll have a chance. Hit my 401k, sell my car, with zero debt I should qualify for refinancing my house alone. Then ill take the equity and buy a cheap car.
Ending this day with the following:
I really don't want a divorce.
Day 154
Could not sleep. I am filled with dread about this week and the upcoming new year. I keep expecting another BD,maybe how WW and OM are truly in love with each other or something like that and D papers will be filed.
I have a lot of opportunities to GAL this week, but I don't know why it feels so difficult.
The anxiety just will not go away.
Those thoughts then snowballed into a total negative thought process and took me to a dark Christmas day in which I ended up in a screaming match with my father after he told me that no one wanted to date me because I was too fat. So...PTSD.
OMG! This makes my heart hurt. I can't imagine how that affected you. I can't imagine having a parent who would chop you up, instead of being in your corner and urging a healthy self esteem in their child. To see your determination to better yourself in the face of pessimism causes a mountain of admiration and respect from me, and I'm sure for others on the board as well as people who know you IRL. It takes so much self discipline to whip your body into shape, and to mold a better mental attitude, etc. Hearing about the lack of support from your father, tells me that you have developed an inner strength all by yourself. You may not have had cheerleaders IRL (or at least the ones you would have loved having), and you may not see your initial desired outcome to date...…..but you have not given up on yourself, and that is so admirable. Just so you know, this board supports you and all the work you have accomplished thus far. (((hugs)))
I do my best to GAL on the days I share the house, but sometimes there are periods where I cannot really go anywhere. Yesterday was one of those days.
Do you have the kids during these periods, or you can't GAL for other reasons? If you are home, could you do exercises there? How about reading a good book you have set aside, watch motivational videos, or try out a new recipe? I may be wrong, but I think having something to look forward to whenever you are in a period where you can't get out, may help prevent getting the mully grubbs on those days/nights.
I just am afraid of going through the dating and courtship process again if I have to move on from current WW. The unknown is scary when it comes to dating. Even moreso when I consider the history I have had with dating. I think that is what is most upsetting. History repeating itself.
History won't repeat itself, b/c you are not the same person as you were back then. IDK, but I think your father and your own body image issues, as well as having other negative experiences, did such a number on your self esteem and confidence as a man...….that little voice whispers in your ear reminding you of the past. Well, you have shown that you are no longer that same person, and you are growing stronger every day. It's nice to show those people how wrong they were about you...….but it's more important to prove it to yourself. Know what I mean? If these others IRL see the changes, that's just a nice addition.....but you can live without their approval or lack thereof. Know how I know? B/c you have already proved that you could certainly live with their criticism. Maybe you have imagined your father telling you how wrong he was to tell his son those ugly words, and how he is proud you. That's something we all desire to hear from our parents, especially if they have expressed negative opinions of us. It's human to want our parents to be pleased, even proud how we turned out as an adult. Some people don't get that from a parent. Especially if something was said in anger a long time ago, and that parent has too much stubborn pride to make amends and tell themselves the son or daughter has forgotten all about what's been said in the past.... and they just tries to sweep it under the rug. Sometimes therapy is needed to help that son or daughter deal with the inner pain and destruction that parent caused.
As for dating, you don't have to date until you want to date. In fact, I think you need to wait a little while to experience just being single......being free to basically do what you want.....not having to give account to a spouse or a parent. I think once you really are single, you can focus more on building your confidence. Currently, you have a negative package that comes in the form of your WW. To know that you have done so much work on your self, in spite of your WW and lack of parental support, tells me that you are taking back your b@lls and becoming the man you want to be.
I can see more clearly how you were emotionally dependent on being a husband and a father. It defined something for you. Maybe it defined who you were. Maybe it showed your father that you
could get M and have a family.
And now......that security of being married and having that united family and home life seems to be shifting or fading. Is it difficult to image yourself in a new life? How about a happy new life? I think mentally you realize that you are responsible for your own inner happiness...….but somewhere there is an emotional little whisper that is causing you fear. Fear is an emotion. It may be one the most difficult to conquer, IDK. But I did learn something from a TV evangelist, and I have experienced personally. That message was to "do it anyway". You are afraid? Well then, be afraid and do it anyway. Do it while you are afraid. Do it in spite of your fear. Fear conquers us when we allow it to paralyze us. Fear can prevents us from going through some experience with confidence, stability, decisiveness, assertiveness, and with faith. Fear tells us we can't face some dreaded outcome, or face devastating news, or a change that affects how we live in our surroundings, or a permanent change. Fear is a strong emotion, but it is only an emotion. Don't give it power. Courage is doing something while afraid.
You are doing an amazing job, Pain. In fact, I wish you would consider changing your board name from Pain to something more positive. But if you do, be sure to tell us who you were previously.
I am also having a rough weekend Pain. I didnt sleep well at all last night. We can do this man. I know my WW is in love with OM. Well at least she feels she is.
Wow, Sandi wrote some really great stuff to you Pain. I agree with her. We know you can move forward because you have shown that you can time and time again.
I sometimes get paralyzing fear as well. I do something similar to what Sandi was suggesting above: I name it. I stop, and think to myself, "Oh, why don't I want to do ____? Because of FEAR". There's something about naming it that transforms the emotion from a lead ball that lives in your gut to something you can tackle.
Wishing you a good week.
You are doing an amazing job, Pain. In fact, I wish you would consider changing your board name from Pain to something more positive. But if you do, be sure to tell us who you were previously.
I vote for SupperStud
I have a support group meeting, so I'll keep this extremely brief. I'll pour my heart out later tonight.
Thank you all for the love. I cried reading your post, Sandi. You are the second person to comment on my strength of going through so much and still have the power to keep going. WW was the first.
I have a name change planned. It will be live come 1/1.
Looking forward to your update, pain. And your new name. Proud of you for hanging in there.
I will be anxiously checking for your new name on 1/1. That sounds like a great New Year activity.
Looking forward to your new name Pain!!! I think Sandy is bang on and I love her advice to start imagining your new life as a happier one instead of just new. We are all on this painful journey of self-exploration we didn’t choose to go on but maybe we needed to. This has been the most painful three months of my life without a doubt but I am slowly but surely moving forward to what I think will be a better, stronger version of myself. I have realized that my identity and self-image has been too wrapped up in being my H’s wife and that I have spent the last few years waiting for him to “return” to live my life. I have wasted a lot of time doing that and, in a way, I feel like the grief I am going through is also wasting time. But, I know that it is not because I have to go through it to get to the other side. And you do too. You will get there Pain. You ARE getting there. (((Pain)))
Day 154 (end),
Arguably one of the roughest days I have had in awhile. About as bad as the early days when I started posting.
I started out reading Sandi's post about how I have overcome so much in my life through some of the darkest events in my life. I started tearing up. Plus the fact that my D4 was going to be gone for 5 days and it really got me sad. I made the best of my time with her and had breakfast with her. She then sat on my lap while we watch YouTube videos of objects being restored.
WW enters the house and I don't make any eye contact with her. Before they left, I hug D4 twice and sent them on their way. WW asked if I was excited to have the house by myself (no) and I just said "Yeah". She then asked me if I needed anything. I said "No. I'm good." and closed the door behind them.
I then sobbed for a good 10 minutes in my bedroom followed by crawling under my blanket and sobbing some more. I finally got up and got myself ready for my NGS support group. I told them about my conversation with WW on Christmas and how I felt that my jerk-ish response was passive-aggressive and that I should have let her know that I was ok. It was my last session for awhile due to a lack of funds to continue. I'm hoping I can continue in February.
I then made myself some lunch, caught up on prayers, and forced myself to go the gym. I drove deep into the city because I did not want to be home with idle time on my hands.
I got to the gym and pushed through my workout. It was not my best and I thought about quitting a few times, but I told myself that quitting is not the new me and I need to push through. During the workout FIL texted me about D4's needs. So that gave me the impression that WW did a dump and run. I shed tears but kept up with my exercise. I keep a small notebook with my exercise logs. As I was filling out my workout, a fortune from a cookie I ate awhile ago fell to the floor. I picked it up and read the message:
You will make a long overdue personal decision
I put the fortune back in my notebook and confronted the fact that I am going to have to make a very difficult decision soon.
I bought groceries and called my mom. I asked her if God is punishing me for this. For not praying regularly. For ignoring my parents for the better part of my marriage. For all of the passive-aggressive crap I pulled over the years. She told me that "no", it's not punishment since I admitted to God my faults and ask for forgiveness. More tears.
The last thing that made me break down completely was when I called D4 to wish her good night. She was crying and the first thing she said was that she wanted to come home. I asked her "Why?" She said that she misses her daddy and wants her daddy. I fought through more tears and told her that I will see her soon and to enjoy her time with her grandparents. She kept crying and asking for me and asking me to pick her up. I told her that Grandad will have a lot of fun and I will see her really soon. I said "I love you" and she sobbed it back. I hung up and recomposed myself to finish my shopping.
The drive home was an exercise in control. I shed more tears but I was able to keep it together until I got home.
It is about an hour before bedtime as I am typing this. I am going to eat, pray, and go to bed.
Two more days until the new year. It's going to be better than this year. That I will ensure.
If by some reason WW is reading this, I have this to say directly to you:
I hope this lifestyle fantasy of yours was worth it. Because it's going to get very real very soon. And it will not be as easy as you are hoping to make it to be. "Enjoy" OM. Enjoy the sex, the passion, the "genuine show of affection" these next few days.
Your "love" is going to be thoroughly tested. And I will not be there to hold your hand for this trial. You are going to be on your own for this one.
I feel for you.
If you do file for D, I would do some research in "Right of first refusal". W will not be able to "Dump" D4 off to anyone but you.
Keep letting the tears flow in private. It is healthy.
Stay strong. You can handle this.
Oh Pain... I am so sorry that happened with your D. Five days is a long time. My H and I have talked about an alternating 2-3-2 schedule (starting on Mondays) so the kids never go longer than three days without seeing the other parent. Not ideal and definitely not what I want (obviously I’d like 24/7 of both parents) but I think we will try it and see how it goes. My kids are 11 so they text me or call me when they are with their dad if they feel they need to. My D and I text each other every night and she passes the messages on to my S. It is really, really hard not to resent my H for doing this to us but I know it will only hurt them if I do so I am working on forgiveness. Anyway... just wanted to send you some support. And I agree with R2C...it is okay to cry. Sometimes there is just nothing else that we can do in the moment and it does provide a release for some of those pent-up feelings. (((HUGS)))
Cry as much as you want, but never in front of your WS or your kids. Your kid might feel at fault and feel guilty for your sadness. Your WS will see it as instability use it against you.
But when it's just you and God, cry your eyes out.
It gets better Pain. You are moving forward into your future. You have your inner strength, you have faith, you have D4. Moving forward with integrity, honesty and commitment. There you go man, be proud of yourself!
Wishing the best for you and your family for the coming year.
Sending you a Big Hug now man.
(((H))j
Day 155 - Final post of 2018,
I obviously spent the majority of my day here reading and replying to other's threads while continuing to reinforce all of the stuff that has been given to me since I have started this journey. There was a lot of pent-up anxiety of what is going to happen in the new year. Lots of changes are going to happen. That's a guarantee. The growth and the pains that come from it will continue. I am expecting that. But I am also expecting a much different year from last year. I am expecting to be in a much better place. A place where I ooze confidence. A place reserved for AMOFWL. Once the clock hits midnight, I will hold my head high and say out loud:
I WILL WIN! BECAUSE I AM AWESOME!
I am getting ready to head out the door to find something fun to do for new years. I may do it solo. I may meet some new folks. I don't know. But I am going to hit 2019 on a strong and determined note.
Pain18 will no longer exist my next post. I have submitted the request to have my handle changed to "
Phoenix9". I hope it gets approved.
Sandi, I was mulling over a profile name change for a month now and Phoenix was the first thing that came into my mind. You verbalizing it confirmed the name change for me.
I will see you all in the new year.
I have submitted the request to have my handle changed to "Phoenix9". I hope it gets approved.
I hope so to. I'll call you Phoenix9 even if the don't change it!
I hope 2019 will be a much better year for you.
I have submitted the request to have my handle changed to "Phoenix9". I hope it gets approved.
I hope so to.
I hope 2019 will be a much better year for you.
Wonderful!! I hope you have a great time tonight Phoenix9!!!
Be safe, have fun, and find something wonderful to smile at.
Love, LOVE, LOVE the new name!
Day 156,
Happy New Year everyone. Hope it was great!
Mine was pretty quiet but relaxing. I lifted, had dinner, and went to a small party at a coffee shop before I stepped out and waited for the fireworks to go off. I got home late and went to sleep very late.
Today I woke up and took care of some house stuff.
I also realized that it's my WW's birthday today. And I do not plan on sending her any greetings. I see it as continued detaching (she is busy, etc.). Any good reason why I should? Because the thought is screaming "PURSUIT" in my mind.
Yeah. I’m not calling her.
Yeah. I’m not calling her.
Good choice.
Day 157,
A recap of yesterday evening followed by my day:
I went to exercise yesterday evening after trying to shoot another beautiful sunset. During the exercise session, I got a Happy new year text from WW. I responded about three hours later telling her "you too thanks!". That's it. No birthday wishes, no calls, nothing. After that, my mind began to wander and my reflection on the sitch and how it is going to play out this year began to snowball into anxiety-causing thoughts. Divorce ran rampant. Finding more truths about WW and OM (still not detached) was also another thought. It made for a very stressful and sad evening. But I somehow fell asleep.
I woke up in a panic following dreams of me having sex with WW. During the dream, I knew that the sex was too good to be true and I just wished for the fantasy to be over so that I can get along with my life again. Sure enough, I did.
More anxious thoughts, more snowballing, and then I got thoughts of WW coming back with an engagement ring on her finger. So internally I was an anxious wreck. I was able to do my job though and got wrapped up in a project that kept my mind occupied for most of the day. During my lunch, WW called. I did not answer because I was working. She texted me five minutes later asking me to call when I can. I called a few minutes later. She tried to idly chat about her week (just had an easy night in pajamas for her birthday...right) and told me how she is older and whatnot. I am 96% sure that she was trying to coax a "Happy Birthday" out of me.
Never happened.
She then asked me how mine was. I said it was fun and then asked what's up? She wanted to talk about why I broke down Sunday when I was talking to D4. I told her I was fine and that I was just having a rough evening. I then talked to D4 for a few more minutes before hanging up the call.
Kept myself busy throughout the afternoon and went home. I checked the mail, and her ER bill came in...and it is significant. And it is going to be her problem to solve. I need to prepare my speech now. Because I know come Friday morning I am going to get a flurry of calls and texts asking me how we're going to resolve this. I plan on saying that the bill is her responsibility to figure out. Any other thoughts on how I should proceed with this impending talk?
Day 158 (early)
I’ve been up for almost three hours now. No anxiety. Just up. I’m trying to get back to sleep but that is proving to be difficult. Maybe it’s time I buy a real bed?
The ER bill may wait until Sunday. That gives some more time to get some feedback and prepare.
Exhausted.
Taken from burned's thread, but it applies to me too:
Trying to hook up with other people while you are still collecting pieces of yourself off the floor is a very bad idea. I know it sounds appealing, but it is WRONG. You cannot attract quality people in your life when you are in the state you are in. Broken attracts broken.
As for casual sex thingy. Really? You'd mess with women so you could bed them? What, like go on revenge binge? Bed 'em al, married or not, just jump at any one showing a slight hint of interest?
You guys are REALLY broken... And you do not even realize it.
I remember having a meltdown a while ago in which I expressed THE EXACT SAME FEELINGS. Though the 2x4s I got were not quite as hard as this one, it did make me reconsider and allowed me to pull back.
That being said, Vapo nails it. Especially at the last part. I'm still piecing myself, but I am for the most part, still broken.
Being broken is not bad. Giving up and giving in, is bad.
Joe, giving up how? On myself I assume?
I'm getting a better understanding of why I needed to be broken.
pain18 needed to be broken and torn down. Phoenix9 is the cleaning up the rubble and rebuilding. Both are based on the same foundation (warmth, morals, humor, caring, etc.).
Except the rebuild comes with the knowledge of NOT cutting corners, inferior materials (bad advice, etc.), or occupying it too quickly.
I am working hard on the cutting corners part since that was a very bad habit of mine. So far, so good but there are days in which I still catch myself doing so.
I am getting the advice I need from good sources and applying them in my life.
I still am trying to rush things though or looking for ways to "validate" myself (casual dating and sex...nothing has happened so far). There are other ways to get validation but I should not care. I need to validate myself. Others can do what they want. If they like me, great. If not, their loss. This existing thought process all falls under my NGS and I am happy that I can at least recognize it.
It's way easier to give up and give in to what's comfortable for us. The problem is when that normalcy involves the factors that brought us to the place where we found ourselves to be broken.
180s can involve lots of determination, depending on what they are. Sometimes they are simple, like dressing better or cleaning up more. But sometimes they are complex, like learning constructive ways to deal with anger.
It's so easy to take the position that an old dog can't learn new tricks, and the world should love me just the way I am.
Sometimes the way we are is the reason for the treason. It's often hard to accept deep flaws, make meaningful changes, and move on. Some people give up and give in, because changing was too hard.
Hi Phoenix.
Love the new name and the concept behind it!!
I have been following along and can so relate to the feelings you are having as they are much like my own. I, too, have thought about trying to rush the process by distracting myself through casual dating. These are really just fleeting thoughts though... I know that if I did, it would only add more complexities to my already complex situation. I also know, beyond a doubt, that I am nowhere near ready to go down that road and that it would be quite unfair to do so. I think most people are looking for a partner and the ones who aren’t, are likely in similar situations with unresolved issues of one sort or another. I would not want to hurt any of the partner-seeking people and honestly, would not want to be involved with the unresolved issues people. So as much as it would be a welcome distraction to seek out validation through the attentions of someone else, I think it would only lead to more heartache in the end (for me or someone else) and it would get in the way of me evolving into the person I want to be. So for now... I focus on that and on spending as much quality time with my kids as I possibly can.
I know how hard this is. Betrayal and rejection at this level is life-altering and a HUGE blow to one’s sense of self. It is a raw kind of pain that I have not felt before and I don’t want to feel again. But I know that I need to feel it and I need to go through it to become a better, more self-aware person and there is no short cut to getting there. What worries me about your post is your statement about casual sex and needing to validate yourself. I don’t know if you meant it the way it sounded but to me, it sounded as if your answer to this is to become as selfish and hardhearted as it appears your WW has become. Is that the person you want to be? Do you see things going well for that person? I guarantee you that when you have healed, properly healed, and become AMOAFWL, there will be a GREAT life waiting for you and someone to love who will be worthy of that person. (((HUGS)))
Thanks DV
. I thought about about "Phoen1x9" but that does not look as...grownup. I wanted "Phoenix19" but...darn that character limit!
I have been following along and can so relate to the feelings you are having as they are much like my own. I, too, have thought about trying to rush the process by distracting myself through casual dating. These are really just fleeting thoughts though... I know that if I did, it would only add more complexities to my already complex situation. I also know, beyond a doubt, that I am nowhere near ready to go down that road and that it would be quite unfair to do so. I think most people are looking for a partner and the ones who aren’t, are likely in similar situations with unresolved issues of one sort or another. I would not want to hurt any of the partner-seeking people and honestly, would not want to be involved with the unresolved issues people. So as much as it would be a welcome distraction to seek out validation through the attentions of someone else, I think it would only lead to more heartache in the end (for me or someone else) and it would get in the way of me evolving into the person I want to be. So for now... I focus on that and on spending as much quality time with my kids as I possibly can.
I need to continue reminding myself that I am not ready for anything regarding R, whether it's with WW or someone else. The emotions and behavior behind my posts does not reflect someone who is ready to engage in any sort of relationship other than friendship. I don't feel ready because I am still not detached from WW.
I know how hard this is. Betrayal and rejection at this level is life-altering and a HUGE blow to one’s sense of self. It is a raw kind of pain that I have not felt before and I don’t want to feel again. But I know that I need to feel it and I need to go through it to become a better, more self-aware person and there is no short cut to getting there. What worries me about your post is your statement about casual sex and needing to validate yourself. I don’t know if you meant it the way it sounded but to me, it sounded as if your answer to this is to become as selfish and hardhearted as it appears your WW has become. Is that the person you want to be? Do you see things going well for that person? I guarantee you that when you have healed, properly healed, and become AMOAFWL, there will be a GREAT life waiting for you and someone to love who will be worthy of that person. (((HUGS)))
DV, I don't know if you've read my sitch from start to finish, but one of the things that I am so insecure about is my lack of success when it comes to dating. My WW was my first GF, first sexual encounter, first moving in together, and so on. It took me 17 years (from late elementary school to well after college). I have had to endure a lot of rejection, multiple therapists, as well as having a verbal fight with my father (Xmas 2005-Dad told me no one wanted to date me because I was too fat) to get to that point.
And to have it gone and come to grips that I would have to embark on the courtship journey again is...extremely demoralizing. I get the fact that I don't "need" anyone in my life to complete me. I know I am a lot more experienced than I was before I met my WW, so I would not have to wait another 17 years (hopefully). But I would be lying if I said I miss the affection.
I know it sounds dumb of me to say, but I just have moments where I want to be held, cuddled, and loved. Not as a father or son or friend, but as two people who can share an intimate moment, even if it's brief. There was talk of finding a professional, but I don't want to go down that road. It's fake. It's expensive, and it is risky.
I really do hope for another chance at love. And I hope that when I do, it goes better and farther than the first time around.
Day 159,
I am beyond exhausted. Second night in row in which I could not sleep. Lots of tossing and turning. Lots of reflection. I ended up going on a drive to see if I can tire myself out. It did. I got about 2 hours.
It seems more and more that WW is temp checking me a lot more. I have been becoming increasingly distant and only trying to talk to her about business. It's hard and I need to remind myself to stop the conversation if it strays. I know there is going to be a conversation of why I ignored her on her birthday and other things. She is really trying to "help" me, but I have it beaten in my mind that it's just all one temp check after the other. There is always an assumption on my end that she is throwing crumbs. I do not see any sincerity on her end...at least not yet. And I am not expecting it. She may think that what I am doing may just be another manipulation tactic to convince her to come back to the MR. It's not. I am getting more used to the idea that ANYTHING can happen. I just know that I can only control me.
Anxiety is better controlled today. I have not seen her yet, but I will tonight. I hope that the D4 dropoff is uneventful. As ridiculous as it may sound, I am still afraid that when I see WW I will see an engagement ring on her finger. I know that a very small percentage of relationships based on an affair succeed. But...it seems like a lot of things that had a "small chance of occurring" are occurring. I really hope this is not one of them.
I still want her back. I still hope for her back. I still don't want a divorce.
I know there is going to be a conversation of why I ignored her on her birthday and other things.
W:"Bla bla bla ignore bla bla ba"
H:"I believe I was busy. Anyway, I got something I need to take care of. Goodbye"
I know there is going to be a conversation of why I ignored her on her birthday and other things.
W:"Bla bla bla ignore bla bla ba"
H:"I believe I was busy. Anyway, I got something I need to take care of. Goodbye"
^^^This^^^ Boy those NGS tendencies die hard, don't they?
Phoenix, let's say you worked for me and I fired you last year. Then let's say I called you in a huff and said "Phoenix, what the hell man, yesterday was boss's day and you didn't get me anything? No card, nothing??? And here I was thinking about giving you your job back, but now, I don't know." How would you respond to that? This is no different, she fired you from your job as H. Why do you think you should be doing husbandly things for her?
^^^This^^^ Boy those NGS tendencies die hard, don't they?
Very. I know it's going to come up. I just need a short answer like R2C suggested.
This is no different, she fired you from your job as H. Why do you think you should be doing husbandly things for her?
I need to remind myself that. I was going to say that I was going to tell her WW fired me as her H, but I then remembered...actions...not words.
AS/R2C (others can chime in as well),
Have you had a chance to look at my Day 157 post in regards to the hospital bill? I'm going to BD that when she gets home.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2830840#Post2830840Day 157,.... I checked the mail, and her ER bill came in...and it is significant. And it is going to be her problem to solve. I need to prepare my speech now. Because I know come Friday morning I am going to get a flurry of calls and texts asking me how we're going to resolve this. I plan on saying that the bill is her responsibility to figure out. Any other thoughts on how I should proceed with this impending talk?
Hopefully your finances are separated by now. No speech. Give her the bill. H"W,Here is your mail"
You don't need to have a conversation about it. Actually you are probably on the hook for it just as much as she is right now since you're married. I'd make copies and see if it can part of the D agreement that she pays it.
For now, it's just her bill and you're giving it to her. If she starts asking you to pay for it or whatever, just say you'll talk about it later.
Day 160 (early),
R2C, I get paid later this month. Accounts will be separated once I separate phone, auto insurance, and car payments. Not sure how to address mortgage and house bills.
D4 came home last night. We were genuinely excited to see each other and spent the evening having dinner and cuddles watching her favorite show on Netflix (baking challenge or something like that).
Question: How long is the average time of full detachment? I would say I’m on month 6 now of this process and I am still struggling. I practically went NC. But I’ve been thinking about her A LOT. I still miss her. I still want her back.
Don’t get anxious about it. It takes time. Train your mind not to go to certain places. The spark of hope is very resilient and it’s ok to have it somewhere. It’s about managing expectations and living into reality. Here is where GAL kicks in. Keep walking your pace P, you are moving on, keep DB.
Day 160 (end),
It was a good day overall. I think due to a good combination of meds and progress on detaching. I can confidently say that I am making progress because I did not talk to WW all day today. No texts from her, nothing. And I was not worked up over it.
She finally called in the evening to check on D4. After D4 talked to her, WW tried to converse to me. I kept it short about D4. She started to tell me how she is going to have to go back to work soon. I basically said "Ok. Bye". She was taken aback and asked if I was ok. I said "yes, everything is good!", she tried to continue to talk about her vacation some more and I basically ended the conversation again ("Ok...have fun!"). She sighed in irritation and asked to put D4 on the phone. D4 talked to WW and that was the end of the call. I'm sensing some more temp checks soon. A lot more.
I am looking through the 3rd quotes thread and I saw the following link:
"Puppy's Short Version, All-In...ylayed Spouses Who Just Got Bombed"I am going the 2b route because we are both so far in this sitch that there really is no 2a option right now. 2a will likely be used if we R.
A very interesting post (
link here) that discusses how the LBS spouse sometimes interprets the S waywardness as an MLC.
Key quotes:
Be careful with people who are diagnosing things as MLC by listening to a BS on an anonymous site. Not only could they be very very WRONG in their diagnosis, but in their advice EVEN if it is "MLC".. a term that is very loosely used. A term that is one that gives false hope to a person who doesn't want to face the other more correct diagnosis... which is.. the WS left them because their feelings changed and they found someone else and are having an affair...
By saying your wayward is in MLC gives you hope.
I did notice that early on in our sitch, WW was going out A LOT (dancing, etc.) while doing the "casual" dating thing. I also heard some stuff from her that should have given me more warning (talking about our 7 year itch in our M, her basically going out to party a lot more, etc.) So I have come to terms that WW is in an outright affair. Maybe or not MLC.
That should be your key to be careful on using that as a crutch because you don't want to come to terms with what may be the real reality..... From my observations on this site it could almost be said that every single WS must be in MLC.
So, be prepared to hear that it may take years and years of pain and misery and waiting.. and even THEN your chances aren't any better than they are if you just let go now and chalk it up to an affair.
I'm happy that I'm DBing as if WW is in an affair and NOT in an MLC. I was surprised to hear that MLC is used as a crutch and an excuse for their wayward's behavior.
At this point in my sitch, does it matter if WW is MLC triggered or not? I did not think there was a difference.
P,
Reading your post and the quotes I wonder does it really matter if the S is a WS or a MLC? The result all point toward the same direction. I guess a WS could potentially come back sooner than a MLC if at all. I found some quotes today which are basically what Gucci loafer is warning against. It describes a type of MLC that very much describes my W upbringing and our R. It even said MLC in women can start as early as 35. So basically as my parents like to keep reminding me, my W has a lot of growing up to do. Unfortunately, it is going to take a long time if it ever happens at all. That just keeps pushing any hope for recon even further down the road. So my point is WS or MLC, doesn't matter just keep DB and improving yourself.
You're right TF...DBing is DBing...
I'm continuing to go through the Quotes III thread and realize that I really need to start facing my fears and just...go for it. I've let the danger of divorce paralyze me for so long that I am afraid to make any moves that may endanger what little threads of my marriage I have left.
I saw a video on attractive body language...good stuff to work on as well.
Hey P - it's been a while and I've just caught up.
I agree with others. It doesn't matter what label we put on our S leaving - it is what it is and we just need to deal with it. I do think (and I am no expert) that there is a difference between a WW and a WAW but only in that one needed an affair to finally give them the courage to leave and the other, well, they drew strength from something else and now that they have it, they are not likely to back down. I feel (with no evidence whatsoever) that a WW is more likely to hit rock bottom first as they needed the affair to give them the strength to leave - if/when the affair ends then the crutch is gone.
However, in both cases, the spouse was fundamentally unhappy in the R.
I wanted to pipe in on the how long does it take to become fully detached. I don't think there is a universal timeline. It depends on how much contact you have, your own and their personality traits, and how intertwined your emotional well beings are. And of course, children. I will say that if you are still asking then you are not detached. You will know that you are detached when it no longer matters to you whether you are detached or not.
FS,
I agree with you on the WW vs WAW. My WW essentially kickstarted the A (today has been exactly one year since BD) and just got deeper into it since.
I need to keep reminding myself to face my fears and continue to detach. I don't know why I'm struggling. Anxiety of losing too much maybe? We were very deep in love until two years ago when I got the warning from WW. She begged me for help because of her love for me. I ignored it. We're back under one roof (for now). I'm working hard on reducing contact with WW as much as possible and I am getting a lot more temp checks from her. Just this morning, she asked me to sub for her class because she wasn't feeling well. I declined.
Day 161.
Detaching timeframes are hugely variable. I can tell you that when I first started posting here I was desperately trying to figure out how to save my M. However since the whole forum beat me upside the head with 2x4s for a few months and I actually got my ass in gear and detached, GAL and 180 the holy hell out of it, I feel way different.
I can honestly say that even though I have had thoughts of sadness and resentment lately that they are fleeting thoughts that pass very quickly. The more i get out and meet people and see that there is a whole world of people, both men and women that are interested in knowing me and actually react positively to me and the changes I have made, the more I become to appreciate that I am my own person and on my own path.
I am seriously considering moving out now. Like for real I think I may go ahead and have a custody agreement drafted so I can get out of the house. I can reach my full potential while living IHS with WW. I am young and I have zero desire spending the last years of my 30s holding a candle to WW and not moving forward.
We should have a BS yearly meetup. No joke, like let's all pick a spot to meet up in the USA and do it. Or even go overseas.
Ok,
So my WW came home and she talked about the bill. I took Joe's advice and said "Not my bill". Well, that hit her hard. And she cried. And she asked why I was an [censored] to her. The unresponsive calls and texts, the way I talk about bills, and the fact that she dreads coming home when I am home because I am angry/moody/vindictive.
All valid points.
She told me about my behaviors the last six years and how I treated her when she was pregnant, and afterwards. Basically, I owned up to it.
She has also dropped hints that I was the one who said the marriage was over, how else should I take what she has done up to that point? She told me that I said that I did not care about her first date, giving off the impression that I moved on, when I clearly was not.
Our plan now is to get our debt paid off. WW will be looking for a place of her own soon. We'll see where we are at in the next six months.
I did not dare tell her anything regarding R. At all. AFAIK, that is not an option anymore (to her).
She feels like she has been supportive of all my improvement efforts and has acknowledged the change. She says she tried to be there for me and I keep putting up a wall between her and I.
I validated all of her points, and agreed that yes, I was an [censored] to her for so long. And I regret it.
Finally, I told her that I forgave her. I cannot continue to be vindictive and angry anymore. There is a way to lovingly detach.
I have no idea where go. I am trying to accept that a D is not an "if" but a "when". But I'd be lying if said I want it to happen. I don't. I really don't. And I'm wondering if I have caused more damage in the last couple of months then heal. Because WW sure feels like I hurt her.
What a mess.
You are not causing problems. She is temp checking the holy sh*t out of you man. That's stuff my WW was saying besides being supportive.
Your M is already damaged to the point she considered it over. You cant break something that is non existent. Stop worrying about how she feels. As long as you're not being vindictive or actually mistreating her there is nothing else to do.
What have you done lately for yourself?
Lately?
Just continue to lift, try to eat healthy, and sleep when I can.
I don’t know why I’m struggling to GAL.
Her words last night cut through me. She made a lot of valid points about my role in this. I’m trying to move forward, but the weight of this keeps bringing me down. I looked at the missed opportunities to fix this and to be honest, I could not see them. At all. Maybe because for the first 7 months I was doing everything wrong.
By the time I started to work on turning it around, her R with OM took root. But I had to let her go and make her go on journey. I felt like it was the right thing to do.
It’s been one year exactly today since BD. I’m in a better place personally, but I am still, as a whole, a broken person being pieced very slowly. And it hurts.
I feel (with no evidence whatsoever) that a WW is more likely to hit rock bottom first as they needed the affair to give them the strength to leave - if/when the affair ends then the crutch is gone.
I really think they don't need the affair to end to hit "rock bottom", they need the LBS to leave. Once the LBS leaves, they have no one to blame but themselves for picking a POS OM/OW.
She says she tried to be there for me and I keep putting up a wall between her and I.
Maybe you should have 2x4'd her and said oh is that why you got your little boyfriend, for me? I mean seriously, she's in lala land. Not that you can force her out of lala land but you don't really want her living and thinking that way around you.
You also said "Our plan now is to get our debt paid off". Why is this is a joint plan?
And I'm wondering if I have caused more damage in the last couple of months then heal. Because WW sure feels like I hurt her.
The quicker you get strong, stick to your boundaries, and stop letting her eat cake the quicker the damage will stop. I mean this because the IHS is eating you up. The OM is eating you up. You care so much and she doesn't mind hurting you bc she knows she can get away with it. If she doesn't want to move out, I'd consider moving out if I was you. I like the way Davide did that bc it was best for him.
All this stuff has just been building up inside of you, and you're understandably a little bitter and angry with her. When you truly get away from her, you can get better at letter go of those feelings. I just feel like you're stuck. And believe me, this is not a holier than thou assessment, I'm stuck too. It's facing our fears and letting go of the imaginary control we think we have that is hard to do.
Yes you are dwelling on the past. I understand. I wish I could time warp to five years ago, beat the crap out of my old self and make sure that we went to MC before all of this even took hold. Coulda woulda shoulda. Past is the past! Stop dwelling on it.
It takes two to tango. Yes I read that same thread where your WW got the courage to ask you to go to MC and you shut her down. No matter whether that's true or not, her finding a lover while she is still married instead of again asking you for help fixing the M or putting her big girl past ties on and actually leaving you before she found a lover, would have been the mature choices that she could have made.
She decided to say "f**k everyone else's feelings, only I matter"
What I'm getting at is that your WW, just like mine, made the hateful and disgusting decision to start another relationship before ending the current one. That's 100% on them and not on us. You have no idea if anything you did differently would have avoided that. Stop dwelling on it and just be the man that you want to be now.
You are just bringing yourself down. There is a reason the windshield in a car is much larger than the rear view mirror. Because what's in front of us is more important than what's behind us
Standard WW Question: Why aren't you meeting my (emotional) needs?
My Answer: Go to your OP. You chose them. Now it's their job to make you feel better about (emotional need).
You also said "Our plan now is to get our debt paid off". Why is this is a joint plan?
I would not only be liable for half of the debt that was accrued in our marriage, but since I make much more than WW I would be looking at paying alimony/child support.
The quicker you get strong, stick to your boundaries, and stop letting her eat cake the quicker the damage will stop. I mean this because the IHS is eating you up. The OM is eating you up. You care so much and she doesn't mind hurting you bc she knows she can get away with it. If she doesn't want to move out, I'd consider moving out if I was you. I like the way Davide did that bc it was best for him.
It's destroying me. And I cannot afford another place right now. WW told me she is going to start looking for a place to move out. She also knows that an IHS is doing nothing but causing damage. Old me would try to bargain with her and come to some sort of compromise. I said no such thing this time.
All this stuff has just been building up inside of you, and you're understandably a little bitter and angry with her. When you truly get away from her, you can get better at letter go of those feelings. I just feel like you're stuck. And believe me, this is not a holier than thou assessment, I'm stuck too. It's facing our fears and letting go of the imaginary control we think we have that is hard to do.
You are just bringing yourself down. There is a reason the windshield in a car is much larger than the rear view mirror. Because what's in front of us is more important than what's behind us
I am stuck. I am so afraid of change, but I keep telling myself it's for the best interest of D4. She deserves so much better and she is not getting any of it at all. At this point, sacrifices are going to have to be made. If I am not the best Phoenix, I cannot give my best to D4. I know I have been doing the right things, but I have been coming across as vindictive.
I really need to get out. I'm failing hard at DBing. Detaching, GAL. All failed in these last few days. I need to get going again. WW is hurting me. OM is hurting me. WW and OM progressing in their R is really hurting me. This cycle of pain and obsessing about them needs to stop. I am just really struggling with it. So much.
Hey there,
Just checking on you.
Day 169,
Hi everyone!
I'm doing pretty well overall. The last week has been pretty eventful to say the least, but I am really starting to feel things getting better. I am still am working on my confidence issues but it is improving steadily. I got a shot in the arm last Friday when I went to the doctor and I lost 5 pounds...I lost fat and I gained muscle. And I'm seeing myself transform into someone who I can say is attractive, inside and out. I don't think I have ever felt this good about myself in a very long time. And it's being carried out in my actions. Whether it is attractive to others or not, I don't know nor do I care. I love who I am becoming.
My WW is seeing these changes and is starting to chase me. Albeit it's nowhere obsessive status (nor I do expect her to), it is something that I am noticing. She wants to do favors for me, offers to stay at home and "look after me" if I'm too hurt to take care of myself (I pulled a muscle that incapacitated me for the weekend), and just offers of...helping. Again, I'm not making ANYTHING of her actions (trust 50%), it is interesting that she is doing this.
I still experience dips regularly, but they are not as intense as they used to be. A combination of detaching, GAL, and focusing on my personal and professional growth has kept my mindset positive while I continue to navigate this.
I will try to update a little more regularly, but I just needed to step back for a bit from here and really reflect on my journey to this point. I have been reading my previous posts and observe the growth I have gone through. I am really happy where I am right now, and I know it will continue to get better as things start getting clearer and I become reborn. I keep up with the sitches here when I find some time and copy and paste wisdom from multiple threads into a Word document I keep in the cloud. I reference that document frequently to make sure that I don't get off track.
The latest one I copied and pasted is Blu's and Sandi's piecing document. I am nowhere near piecing, since things are still scattered about, but I am starting to feel that it is a possibility that may becoming more tangible as time progresses.
Oh...and so far, 2019 has been really good to me. Much better than 2018.
Love to you all.
You sound good. You are the prize. Make her work for it.
So my WW came home and she talked about the bill. I took Joe's advice and said "Not my bill". Well, that hit her hard. And she cried. And she asked why I was an [censored] to her. The unresponsive calls and texts, the way I talk about bills, and the fact that she dreads coming home when I am home because I am angry/moody/vindictive.
All valid points.
She told me about my behaviors the last six years and how I treated her when she was pregnant, and afterwards. Basically, I owned up to it.
She has also dropped hints that I was the one who said the marriage was over, how else should I take what she has done up to that point? She told me that I said that I did not care about her first date, giving off the impression that I moved on, when I clearly was not.
Our plan now is to get our debt paid off. WW will be looking for a place of her own soon. We'll see where we are at in the next six months.
I did not dare tell her anything regarding R. At all. AFAIK, that is not an option anymore (to her).
She feels like she has been supportive of all my improvement efforts and has acknowledged the change. She says she tried to be there for me and I keep putting up a wall between her and I.
I validated all of her points, and agreed that yes, I was an [censored] to her for so long. And I regret it.
Finally, I told her that I forgave her. I cannot continue to be vindictive and angry anymore. There is a way to lovingly detach.
I have no idea where go. I am trying to accept that a D is not an "if" but a "when". But I'd be lying if said I want it to happen. I don't. I really don't. And I'm wondering if I have caused more damage in the last couple of months then heal. Because WW sure feels like I hurt her.
What a mess.
Is she telling the truth in what she says about you? What does she currently want? Does she want to save the M, or get a D?
Is she telling the truth in what she says about you? What does she currently want? Does she want to save the M, or get a D?
Sandi, when we talked last week, my instinct/gut feeling told me that she was sincere and telling the truth. It was the first time in almost a year that I saw and heard the woman I fell in love with and her feelings for me felt genuine. And the fact that she keeps bringing up about one every two weeks tells me that not only is she seeing the changes I am making, but it is leaving an imprint on her and clouding her decision of choosing what she wants.
She talks like we are preparing for a divorce, but there have been no actions (on either of our ends) to move it that way.
It's still early, but I'm sensing some movement away from divorce.
It's the most confident I have felt about this situation in a very long time. I still have hope that we can work our way back towards each other and begin piecing.
Sandi, when we talked last week, my instinct/gut feeling told me that she was sincere and telling the truth. It was the first time in almost a year that I saw and heard the woman I fell in love with and her feelings for me felt genuine. And the fact that she keeps bringing up about one every two weeks tells me that not only is she seeing the changes I am making, but it is leaving an imprint on her and clouding her decision of choosing what she wants.
Is she still in contact with OM? Is she engaging in girl gone wild activities?
Look, your anger and vindictiveness could ruin your chances of reconciling. When I read your post describing her words, I saw a woman who had been badly hurt by her H. I'm not excusing her affair, but I understand how a woman can feel lonely and her emotional needs ignored by her H for so long that she loses hope their MR will ever improve. She becomes vulnerable to some other guy that says all the right things and makes her feel special. If she has ended her affair and stopped other wayward activities, she may be at the point of wanting to reconcile. I don't know, I'm just wondering, based on her words.
So, my advice is to ditch your bad attitude and cut out the vindictiveness.........if you want her back. Stop making a point of completely staying away from her when she's home. Speak to her when you see her. Don't be rude and totally ignore her. Share some time in the same room with her. If she sees you not being mad at her, maybe things will make a turn in the right direction.
I got the impression from what she said that perhaps she thinks you are the one currently wanting the divorce, b/c you are so angry at her.
Is she still in contact with OM? Is she engaging in girl gone wild activities?
Look, your anger and vindictiveness could ruin your chances of reconciling. When I read your post describing her words, I saw a woman who had been badly hurt by her H. I'm not excusing her affair, but I understand how a woman can feel lonely and her emotional needs ignored by her H for so long that she loses hope their MR will ever improve. She becomes vulnerable to some other guy that says all the right things and makes her feel special. If she has ended her affair and stopped other wayward activities, she may be at the point of wanting to reconcile. I don't know, I'm just wondering, based on her words.
So, my advice is to ditch your bad attitude and cut out the vindictiveness.........if you want her back. Stop making a point of completely staying away from her when she's home. Speak to her when you see her. Don't be rude and totally ignore her. Share some time in the same room with her. If she sees you not being mad at her, maybe things will make a turn in the right direction.
I got the impression from what she said that perhaps she thinks you are the one currently wanting the divorce, b/c you are so angry at her.
She is still in contact with the OM and visits him every weekend. AFAIK she is not engaging in GGW stuff. I think she has settled down. The lifestyle is catching up to her and is affecting her physical health. She told me of another potential health issue yesterday. She is trying to make light of it, but she is scared.
I told her that have fully forgiven her. When I said those words, I felt the remnants of anger of her choices leaving me. I told her I have been acting like a prick and a$$hole and I would work on that. Since that day, I have been much more pleasant to her. I have been offering some help when she needs it (I'm not at her beck and call. I still wait to respond to her messages). It's only been 10 days since I cut the vindictiveness and anger, but I am feeling some positivity not only in myself but between her and I as well.
Small steps. It means not much, but then again, it could mean something turning around.
And your impression is correct, Sandi. I truly think she does not want a divorce and she has been waiting for me to respond to her tests to turn it around. I think I am finally at that point where I have made enough positive changes and gained enough strength to start focusing on my contribution to save the M. By NO means am I saying that I am done changing because I am definitely not. I have a lot to fix. My anger is still something I need to work on. I still do not have a grip on my NGS. And I am starting to get some therapy for my sex issues.
Day 171.
And yes, I am fully aware of my contribution to this sitch. I told her as much as to why she is doing what she is doing. I told her that this started when my WW told me that she was pregnant and it just got progressively worse. I abandoned her when she needed me most. I did not give her the attention and affection she deserved. I subliminally blamed her for a lot of the issues in my life. I told her that I took her love for granted because I thought it was going to last forever.
I was extremely wrong.
She did not deserve any of it and I told her as much. I will continue to tell her, whether we piece or not.
She is still in contact with the OM and visits him every weekend.
Please stay balanced. You almost swung too far the other direction, since you know she is still seeing OM. Do you see where you nearly went too far?
It's only been 10 days since I cut the vindictiveness and anger, but I am feeling some positivity not only in myself but between her and I as well.
Good! The vindictiveness was eating you alive!
I still wait to respond to her messages).
Why? Don't you think it looks rude to make her wait every single time, before you respond? I mean, if you are truly busy, then don't break your neck to answer, but as long as she is using respectful words and not getting a bad attitude with you......I don't think it is necessary to play the "waiting game" before responding each time.
Phoenix, don't look at your WW as you responding to her tests.....you have to do the turnaround for you. I am no expert but I have seen most things that have been advised here work to an extent. Keep at the DBing!
Make the changes that make you feel good about yourself, do the activities that help you grow and help detach because you are living your best life...not waiting for that person that has caused so much hurt to come around. It is a tough pill to swallow experiencing all of this first hand and I too struggle with the impatience. If I would guess my WW is struggling to detach from OM but it appears that she is moving in the right direction. We just have to keep pushing forward with our goals.
Love hearing your success in physically improving, never stop that! I keep setting new goals for myself, weight, strength, new physical activities to take on. Never enjoyed clothes shopping until I got my youthful physique back at 49, the compliments are great and uplifting that I too am desirable...hopefully you are getting those looks as well.
Please stay balanced. You almost swung too far the other direction, since you know she is still seeing OM. Do you see where you nearly went too far?
I do see how I have pushed her further into the arms of the OM. The most recent example was a little over two weeks ago when I acted like a jerk leading up to the bill situation.
I'm working hard on the balance. I want to make the switch genuinely. I need to make the change for me. Not her.
It's only been 10 days since I cut the vindictiveness and anger, but I am feeling some positivity not only in myself but between her and I as well.
Good! The vindictiveness was eating you alive!
I still wait to respond to her messages).
It has been very hard to let this go. But I am working on it. I do not feel anger any more.
Why? Don't you think it looks rude to make her wait every single time, before you respond? I mean, if you are truly busy, then don't break your neck to answer, but as long as she is using respectful words and not getting a bad attitude with you......I don't think it is necessary to play the "waiting game" before responding each time.
Sandi, I am still trying to convey mysteriousness and putting my own tasks and responsibilities over her. To be honest, she has not said anything disrespectful or showed me a bad attitude in a long time.
I just don't want to nice anything. I want her to come back but on her terms. My job is not to push her away any further. If she comes back is up to her and the higher power.
Phoenix, don't look at your WW as you responding to her tests.....you have to do the turnaround for you. I am no expert but I have seen most things that have been advised here work to an extent. Keep at the DBing!
Of course. Nothing has changed as far as working on myself. I am nowhere near where I want to be, physically, mentally, and emotionally. I am still raw. I still need work.
Make the changes that make you feel good about yourself, do the activities that help you grow and help detach because you are living your best life...not waiting for that person that has caused so much hurt to come around. It is a tough pill to swallow experiencing all of this first hand and I too struggle with the impatience. If I would guess my WW is struggling to detach from OM but it appears that she is moving in the right direction. We just have to keep pushing forward with our goals.
Love hearing your success in physically improving, never stop that! I keep setting new goals for myself, weight, strength, new physical activities to take on. Never enjoyed clothes shopping until I got my youthful physique back at 49, the compliments are great and uplifting that I too am desirable...hopefully you are getting those looks as well.
I am not waiting. I have not waited in a long time. But I have stopped running away towards the other solution (divorce). I am just letting things be. That seems to be making all of our lives better in one form or another. I have so many goals I want to accomplish:
- Bench 185lbs. in 3 sets of 10 reps.
- Get a consistent paid gig for my photography
- Lose another 20-30 pounds.
- Become indispensable at my job.
It's about small, continual improvements. Those are the ones that tend to stick.
Thank you
I am not going to stop. I am not going to be complacent anymore. I am going to make myself the best Phoenix9 I am capable of being. WW, OM, others...I don't control them or their feelings. Nor do I want to. That took too much energy from me and I just ended up tired, frustrated, and heartbroken.
Marching forward.
Day 172.
Sandi, I am still trying to convey mysteriousness and putting my own tasks and responsibilities over her. To be honest, she has not said anything disrespectful or showed me a bad attitude in a long time.
If she sends you a text and you
always wait a while before responding........the mystery has left. It's okay to delay responding sometimes, but if you've made this a routine behavior, then I think you've over-killed it a bit. But........whatever.
I just don't want to nice anything.
My concern was that your anger was the driving force in your attempt to overcome your NGS. Your vindictiveness was turning you into anything but nice. You were not showing attractive traits, b/c you were trying to be the hard, cold, bad guy. You don't want to turn into a jerk.....in an attempt to overcome your NGS. Is there no middle ground between acting civil and being too accommodating? You have to learn how to get along with people, and at the same time.....not allow them to use you for their own advantage. You can say, "No", without being hateful or cold about it. There may be some instances where you will need to stand up to someone who is disrespecting you, and if that's the case.....don't be afraid of losing their love, friendship, or whatever the association. When you do something good for someone, don't do it with the expectations of getting some desired results in return. Don't forsake your self respect and compromise your integrity in order for the other person to accept you.
IMHO, I think not being a "nice guy" is so foreign to men with NGS, that in their attempt to overcome it......they go too far the other direction. I just don't want to see this happen to you. That's why I was trying to reign you in, when I read what your W said. It sounded as if she was speaking from a place of hurt, instead of anger.
Anyway, try to stay in the middle of the road, and don't swing too far over either side. I don't want to confuse you, and sometimes I feel I do.
Day 173,
My mood and feelings hit a blue area today. Thoughts of WW with OM began to flood my mind again. I thought about who WW once was, about how cheating is the worst thing in the world, about how she would never sleep with someone else, and how she would never hurt me. I look at that, and even though I know that my WW is someone different and is taken over by this monster (who I created) who is doing all of those things. The sadness got a boost when I realized that my circle of friends around me have a SO in one form or the other. And I just look at what is going on and just wonder...am I doomed to this? I am trying to tell myself that I don't need anyone to make me happy. I am working on exuding the aura that people GET to be with me. It's a struggle. Especially today.
I'm working on changing my mindset and stop feeling sorry for myself and "broadcast" it to the public. I am trying to put on a positive face, even if I'm hurting inside. So far, it seems to be working. And as an added bonus, I do feel some of the positivity when I act it out.
If she sends you a text and you always wait a while before responding........the mystery has left. It's okay to delay responding sometimes, but if you've made this a routine behavior, then I think you've over-killed it a bit. But........whatever.
I did. I'm trying to warm up gradually. It was how I was behaving before I found the emails. I sometimes think that we were on our way towards R but I had to pursue and then blow up at her for showing affection in front of our D4 and sexing someone else (even typing that is bringing up anger in me). I then tell myself that it needed to happen because I was still looking over my shoulder to see if my attempts at DBing was being noticed by WW. I know that I was doing DBing for getting WW back, not to improve myself, even though I told you all otherwise.
I needed to find the emails. I needed to let go completely. But I did not need to be so angry about it for a long time.
I just don't want to nice anything.
My concern was that your anger was the driving force in your attempt to overcome your NGS. Your vindictiveness was turning you into anything but nice. You were not showing attractive traits, b/c you were trying to be the hard, cold, bad guy. You don't want to turn into a jerk.....in an attempt to overcome your NGS. Is there no middle ground between acting civil and being too accommodating? You have to learn how to get along with people, and at the same time.....not allow them to use you for their own advantage. You can say, "No", without being hateful or cold about it. There may be some instances where you will need to stand up to someone who is disrespecting you, and if that's the case.....don't be afraid of losing their love, friendship, or whatever the association. When you do something good for someone, don't do it with the expectations of getting some desired results in return. Don't forsake your self respect and compromise your integrity in order for the other person to accept you.
IMHO, I think not being a "nice guy" is so foreign to men with NGS, that in their attempt to overcome it......they go too far the other direction. I just don't want to see this happen to you. That's why I was trying to reign you in, when I read what your W said. It sounded as if she was speaking from a place of hurt, instead of anger.
Anyway, try to stay in the middle of the road, and don't swing too far over either side. I don't want to confuse you, and sometimes I feel I do.
I tried not to let my feelings go rogue and back towards angry territory. I was triggered by her behaviors to act out of anger. Again, just thought about what W told me before she went WW, and it just fired off words in my brain like "hypocrite", "cheating liar", and other unsavory words. And that just continued to fuel my angry detachment. I was hurt by the person who promised would never hurt me. I felt betrayed and hurt by her actions and I wanted to let her know how badly it affected me.
It wasn't until I had the heart to heart with WW that I realized that she is acting out of hurt, not out of anger like you said, Sandi. That was when I decided to forgive her. That was when I told myself that this time is likely my last time to save the marriage. And I started to take the steps of being more pleasant to her, help her, and converse with her when she texts or calls me.
I just don't think I am ready to spend a long period of time with her. It still hurts. And I don't trust her.
I was not confused, I just took things farther than I should have.
Another question:
In this warm up process, should I accept some invites to family activities/dinners/etc.?
Or would that be considered cake eating?
Phoenix - My understanding about those invitations is that it is fine to go as long as you have ZERO expectations and avoid initiating any R talks. If you ultimately want to R, it stands to reason that you shouldn't turn down every invitation... just some - especially if they are last minute. The vets can correct me if I'm wrong.
You have been DBing for 6 months correct?
This is my current understanding:
She is still in contact with the OM and visits him every weekend.
Did this change?
You have been DBing for 6 months correct?
Yes.
This is my current understanding:
She is still in contact with the OM and visits him every weekend.
Did this change?
It did not. And I'm thinking it's because my anger and vindictiveness pushed her to him.
I plead with you to get professional help to learn anger management. Sometimes we need professionals who have been trained to teach us how to cope and what to do when we feel the anger flooding us. You have tried to force it under control by sheer will power, but that doesn't appear to be a healthy or effective manner.
Were you angry and cold toward your W before she became wayward? If so, then why were you angry?
Again, just thought about what W told me before she went WW, and it just fired off words in my brain like "hypocrite", "cheating liar", and other unsavory words.
What did she tell you before she went wayward that made her a cheating liar and hypocrite? You said she became a monster that you helped to create. If that's how you really feel, then why are you so angry toward her? Is it 100% about the affair? Her waywardness began in her mindset, before she ever overtly rebelled. I think you feel angry toward yourself, too, but she's been the target of your vindictiveness.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting you compromise your core values and where you stand on cheating/affairs. I'm not suggesting you start jumping through hoops to win her back. I'm saying that she needs to feel respect and admiration for her H. If all she is seeing is a cold, angry, vindictive man......then it's going to cloud her feelings of respect. A wife must feel respect for her H, in order for her to have those warm, desirable feelings of admiration that all H's want their W's to have. I promise you that she won't have those feelings if you are wanting to punish her.
If you want to save your M, then everything from her point of view must be seen through eyes of respect for you as a man and as her H. So, you have to figure out how to be a man that draws respect from his W.
Without receiving professional help to heal and deal with your anger and self pity, I have doubts your MR will be able to survive it. I think the MR can survive the affair, but not your mismanaged anger issues.
I just don't think I am ready to spend a long period of time with her. It still hurts. And I don't trust her.
No, you aren't ready. Of course it still hurts.......she's still in an active affair. There was no reconciliation between you and your W. My concern is that if she ended her affair today and said she wanted to work on the MR......you would continue having those same thoughts/emotions you are experiencing today......unless you seek help in healing. It doesn't just go away b/c the affair ended. That's why I am pleading with you to turn to professional therapy, so you can learn how to deal with your anger and pain.
I am working on exuding the aura that people GET to be with me.
Maybe you need to work on self confidence, rather than exuding the aura that people GET to be with you. I would think the latter could be misread by others as arrogance. Just my thoughts. (((hugs)))
Like I said previously, it's difficult for some men to find balance in this stuff. Trying to accomplish these goals while suffering from intense emotional pain, says a lot about you as an individual. It means you have not given up on yourself. I like that in a person. As long as there is growth, that's a sign there is life.......and hope.
It did not. And I'm thinking it's because my anger and vindictiveness pushed her to him.
Kind of. I mean if we were model husbands and wives, we would have never found the DB board, right? But, you didn't make her cheat. She chose that. She knew it was wrong and did it anyways.
Phoenix, cheers to you this Saturday!
I plead with you to get professional help to learn anger management. Sometimes we need professionals who have been trained to teach us how to cope and what to do when we feel the anger flooding us. You have tried to force it under control by sheer will power, but that doesn't appear to be a healthy or effective manner.
Were you angry and cold toward your W before she became wayward? If so, then why were you angry?
I was. It began when W got pregnant. It was small passive-aggressive things, but suffice to say I was a bad H during that difficult time. She needed extra care and attention and quite simply, I did not give enough of that to her. I was always late coming home, I stayed downstairs when she would go to bed because of her fatigue, bad day at work, etc. The premature birth of our D just made it worse. She got hit with postpartum and her coping mechanisms just irritated me. I felt like I also needed more of her support because I was going through a terrible time and I was not getting it in the form I was expecting (NGS. Hidden contract). And as time progressed, I prioritized my feelings of my awful job over her feelings and needs constantly and took a lot for granted. Sex was even more scarce and I used porn instead (massive screw-up. I'm working on that as well via sex ed classes. Therapy is an option down the road).
She begged for help so many times. And I just felt that my job was more important. I felt that being a provider was something all husbands needed to do.
It goes without saying that I was very wrong.
I have been better about my anger in the last two weeks, but I do feel like I need to get this addressed. I just realized, I am getting help for my marriage (being a better Phoenix), my NGS, and soon sex therapy. Anger management is another thing I need to address.
Again, just thought about what W told me before she went WW, and it just fired off words in my brain like "hypocrite", "cheating liar", and other unsavory words.
What did she tell you before she went wayward that made her a cheating liar and hypocrite? You said she became a monster that you helped to create. If that's how you really feel, then why are you so angry toward her? Is it 100% about the affair? Her waywardness began in her mindset, before she ever overtly rebelled. I think you feel angry toward yourself, too, but she's been the target of your vindictiveness.
Sandi, the more that the days progress, the more I see why my W went WW. Before she went wayward, she gave me hints and clues that things were not good between us at all. She talked about how I felt about divorce (I said "Do what makes you happy" and basically shut her down), she talked about how she is getting close to OM1. She begged me for help, Sandi. She begged me to watch my words and anger because it was not going to end well at all. She gave me so many clues and warnings...and I just did not ignore them, I flipped them off and kicked them in the stomach. That's my part in creating this version of a hurt WW.
I was angry about the affair until two weeks ago when she opened up about my behavior and attitude. I told her again why she was doing what she was doing. I told her that I neglected her needs and as a result, she has gotten herself into this R with OM2. Since that day, I have felt more pity and sorrow for her. She is trying to salve her feelings with OM2 and whatnot, but she is not doing well at all. The HPV, the IUD incident, the stomach problems, and now she has a small amount of blood in her urine. She is coming apart, Sandi. I cannot continue to make it worse. She still loves me. She still is showing signs of love. I still feel like we have a chance. It is my last chance.
I am angry at myself, but instead of wallowing in pity and regret, I'm working on getting that fixed. I'm working on 180ing my own behaviors and moods. Hard work, but it's needed. I can say honestly that coming here has saved my LIFE. I don't know if my marriage will be saved, which was my original intention of joining this board, but the things I have learned about myself was eye-opening. And once I learned about how my behaviors led to this, I knew I HAD to change before I caused more damage, whether it's with WW, or another woman.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting you compromise your core values and where you stand on cheating/affairs. I'm not suggesting you start jumping through hoops to win her back. I'm saying that she needs to feel respect and admiration for her H. If all she is seeing is a cold, angry, vindictive man......then it's going to cloud her feelings of respect. A wife must feel respect for her H, in order for her to have those warm, desirable feelings of admiration that all H's want their W's to have. I promise you that she won't have those feelings if you are wanting to punish her.
If you want to save your M, then everything from her point of view must be seen through eyes of respect for you as a man and as her H. So, you have to figure out how to be a man that draws respect from his W.
Without receiving professional help to heal and deal with your anger and self pity, I have doubts your MR will be able to survive it. I think the MR can survive the affair, but not your mismanaged anger issues.
I won't compromise my values. I sincerely think that she is relying on me to get my crap together because she still has hope for us. I need to be the strong, level-headed man she NEEDS. OM2 is not that man. OM2 is just a band-aid.
And since I started DBing she has been respecting and admiring the changes I have been making and being the person she has wanted for a very long time. It took her calling me a pr*ck and a-hole as well as her crying in front of me to realize the extent of damage my anger has caused. It hit home when she told me that she dreads coming home when I am in the house because of my unpredictable behavior. That is when it struck me hard. I have become someone who I never wanted to be growing up. I have become my dad. And that is what is prompting me to drop the anger and begin the "thawing" process. I'm not doing it to save the MR. I'm doing to save what we have for each other. And I do feel like it's love. I really do.
I have been slowly warming up to her in the last two weeks. I ask her about her day sometimes, I am responding more to her calls and texts in a timely manner, and most of all, I am being more pleasant when I talk to her. I joke a bit (she laughs). I am trying to be the person she fell in love with. Because that was when she was happiest.
I just don't think I am ready to spend a long period of time with her. It still hurts. And I don't trust her.
No, you aren't ready. Of course it still hurts.......she's still in an active affair. There was no reconciliation between you and your W. My concern is that if she ended her affair today and said she wanted to work on the MR......you would continue having those same thoughts/emotions you are experiencing today......unless you seek help in healing. It doesn't just go away b/c the affair ended. That's why I am pleading with you to turn to professional therapy, so you can learn how to deal with your anger and pain.
I hear you Sandi. I will make some phone calls Monday and get the help I need. It's a blessing that we haven't R yet. If we did, I would end up back on here in worse shape. Very thankful that I have more time.
I am working on exuding the aura that people GET to be with me.
Maybe you need to work on self confidence, rather than exuding the aura that people GET to be with you. I would think the latter could be misread by others as arrogance. Just my thoughts. (((hugs)))
Like I said previously, it's difficult for some men to find balance in this stuff. Trying to accomplish these goals while suffering from intense emotional pain, says a lot about you as an individual. It means you have not given up on yourself. I like that in a person. As long as there is growth, that's a sign there is life.......and hope.
Ok. I do see the cockiness from my saying that people GET to be with me. I think it's just pushing my self-confidence goal to the extreme end (I have a pattern of this behavior, don't I?).
I need to go through this pain and loss. It is what I needed to have pain18 die and be reborn as Phoenix9. I deserve the best version of myself. My D4 deserves it.
And my WW deserves it. I think she is relying on me to be that person.
I cannot thank you and this board enough for your support. It's been life-changing.
It did not. And I'm thinking it's because my anger and vindictiveness pushed her to him.
Kind of. I mean if we were model husbands and wives, we would have never found the DB board, right? But, you didn't make her cheat. She chose that. She knew it was wrong and did it anyways.
Phoenix, cheers to you this Saturday!
I am not excusing her decision to cheat, but I do understand why. And right now, I cannot throw that in her face. I hope we will get the chance to address it someday.
Same to you, bud!
[quote]. I mean if we were model husbands and wives, we would have never found the DB board, right? But, you didn't make her cheat. She chose that. She knew it was wrong and did
I agree no one makes a spouse cheat. But disagree that being a model spouse would prevent a divorce. People choose divorce and waywardness because they are not committed and they are not loyal (with the exception of real abuse and addiction). That is who they are. Often times they are seriously disordered. It just takes us getting out of the fog to realize.
Its impossible for anyone to be a model spouse anyway. Thats not realistic.
She begged for help so many times. And I just felt that my job was more important. I felt that being a provider was something all husbands needed to do.
Providing for your family is a very important part of being a good H, however, all your time and energy should not go to your job. With that said, I want to point out something.....and please know that I am not picking on you. I'm just trying to help you get your life more balanced.
Look at your goals:
- Bench 185lbs. in 3 sets of 10 reps.
- Get a consistent paid gig for my photography
- Lose another 20-30 pounds.
-
Become indispensable at my job. Nobody is indispensable. If you quit today, your job would find someone to replace you. If you try to become indispensable, you become a slave to that job 24/7. I'm not saying you should goof off and not do what you were hired to do. Do your very best........and then stop working when the workday is over. Sacrificing your M and family is too high a price to pay for any job. Nobody on their deathbed has been recorded as wishing they had spent more time on the job. I hope this was just your way of wording, maybe to encourage motivation, but since you put so much attention toward your job in the past.......that goal jumped out at me.
BTW, I applaud you for the work you've done on your body.
Okay, so what about GAL? What do you do for fun? All work and no play means an imbalanced lifestyle.
She begged for help so many times. And I just felt that my job was more important. I felt that being a provider was something all husbands needed to do.
Providing for your family is a very important part of being a good H, however, all your time and energy should not go to your job. With that said, I want to point out something.....and please know that I am not picking on you. I'm just trying to help you get your life more balanced.
Look at your goals:
- Bench 185lbs. in 3 sets of 10 reps.
- Get a consistent paid gig for my photography
- Lose another 20-30 pounds.
-
Become indispensable at my job. Nobody is indispensable. If you quit today, your job would find someone to replace you. If you try to become indispensable, you become a slave to that job 24/7. I'm not saying you should goof off and not do what you were hired to do. Do your very best........and then stop working when the workday is over. Sacrificing your M and family is too high a price to pay for any job. Nobody on their deathbed has been recorded as wishing they had spent more time on the job. I hope this was just your way of wording, maybe to encourage motivation, but since you put so much attention toward your job in the past.......that goal jumped out at me.
Sandi, I see how me stating the job goal parallels to my behaviors at my old job prior to BD. Whether I worded it one way or the other does not matter. It's a realization that I need more balance in my life and give my family the attention they deserve.
I am happy to say that I don't take my work home with me. When the workday is over, it stays in the office. I just really enjoy my job. It was one of the things that saved my life and I feel that doing a great job is my way of paying them back.
Okay, so what about GAL? What do you do for fun? All work and no play means an imbalanced lifestyle.
I've been lagging hard. My day without D4 consists of 8-5 workday, then afterward, I lift, and go to a coffee shop and read or go into the city and...read.
My GAL has been mostly reflecting on myself and addressing it, whether it's physical (gym), or mental/emotional (I read books, other people's sitches on this forum, and sometimes watch YouTube videos on improving myself.). All of the activities I mentioned are things I do alone. I am a very sociable person and get along great with people. I am just having a very hard time expanding it to my GAL.
I'm trying to branch out using Meetup to interact with other folks. I am just not putting in enough effort.
Day 175,
WW is still doing WW stuff. She told me that she the day off and booked a spa and nail appointment tomorrow. She is spending the night in the city. So she asked me whether she should take D4 with her to spend the night so that she does not have to drive home early so that I can go to work, or she comes in early the next morning in time to pick up D4 and...take her to the city. I just think she is making excuses to see OM2. She could have spent the night in the house, but for some reason (OM2)she wants to spend it in the city.
It's crap like that that hurts me and gets me angry. But I know that questioning and throwing her WW decisions in her face is a terrible idea. Especially in light of how much my anger caused this. WW has been doing WW stuff for over a year now, but she has told me that she gave me many opportunities to R, but I acted with my emotions and squashed those opportunities. Don't get me wrong, in hindsight, I am happy that we did not R, because I would not have been able to address my issues. Now that I am on the path of improvement, I can work on attracting WW back by being the man she always wanted. She is still sniffing, but she may have cooled a little since I decided to warm up a little. I'm still DBing, but I'm wondering how I can tweak my behaviors to keep her interest piqued while not outright pursuing her. I am still working on improvements for the benefit of myself. If WW comes back, great. I am seeing working on some of WW's behaviors that indicate as such. They're little, but they are showing up.
WS are confusing, aggravating folks. But at least I'm getting better at how to deal with them.
Phoenix - My understanding about those invitations is that it is fine to go as long as you have ZERO expectations and avoid initiating any R talks. If you ultimately want to R, it stands to reason that you shouldn't turn down every invitation... just some - especially if they are last minute. The vets can correct me if I'm wrong.
You are exactly right if it's a couple that's flirting with reconciling, but in P's case his W is still in an affair so it would probably be better to avoid that type of stuff.
Look at your goals:
- Bench 185lbs. in 3 sets of 10 reps.
- Get a consistent paid gig for my photography
- Lose another 20-30 pounds.
- Become indispensable at my job.
Nobody is indispensable. If you quit today, your job would find someone to replace you. If you try to become indispensable, you become a slave to that job 24/7.
Quite right. Also goals should be measurable. The first and third ones are quite measurable. The second one is a little fuzzy but the fourth one cannot be measured at all. Maybe something more like "get a positive review, raise and bonus by the end of the year" would be more measurable and achievable.
It's also good to have milestones leading to bigger goals. For example your goal might be "lose 30 pounds", but your milestones are to lose 5 pounds a month. That way you divide it up into easier-to-accomplish bites, and maybe you attach some kind of reward to those (not food-related, LOL!)
Phoenix - My understanding about those invitations is that it is fine to go as long as you have ZERO expectations and avoid initiating any R talks. If you ultimately want to R, it stands to reason that you shouldn't turn down every invitation... just some - especially if they are last minute. The vets can correct me if I'm wrong.
You are exactly right if it's a couple that's flirting with reconciling, but in P's case his W is still in an affair so it would probably be better to avoid that type of stuff.
WW is still engaged in the A with OM2, but again...she has dropped hints to R without saying it directly. What I have noticed, though is her sniffing and acknowledging about my positive changes constantly. I am not sure if this goes against the grain of what is preached here, but I am going to continue to try to attract her and show hints of wanting R myself. I see how much pain she is in and I see that she is not happy overall. I'm not going to rescue her, but I am going to make it known that I am the best she will ever have and she would be very foolish to let me go.
I want to find the balance between attracting her back and avoiding the cake eating. Is there such a thing?
Look at your goals:
- Bench 185lbs. in 3 sets of 10 reps.
- Get a consistent paid gig for my photography
- Lose another 20-30 pounds.
- Become indispensable at my job.
Nobody is indispensable. If you quit today, your job would find someone to replace you. If you try to become indispensable, you become a slave to that job 24/7.
Quite right. Also goals should be measurable. The first and third ones are quite measurable. The second one is a little fuzzy but the fourth one cannot be measured at all. Maybe something more like "get a positive review, raise and bonus by the end of the year" would be more measurable and achievable.
It's also good to have milestones leading to bigger goals. For example your goal might be "lose 30 pounds", but your milestones are to lose 5 pounds a month. That way you divide it up into easier-to-accomplish bites, and maybe you attach some kind of reward to those (not food-related, LOL!)
I see what you mean.
OK, modified goals:
- Get at least one paid photography gig in the next two months.
- Lose another 20-30 pounds by the end of 2019. That would amount to 1.7 - 2.5 pounds of fat per month.
- Continue to improve at my job with the goal of being promoted by the end of 2019, with the mindset of balancing my time with my D4 and WW where needed. I cannot exceed 50 hours in a workweek to make this happen.
I'm already seeing the rewards, AS. I'm looking great. I'm gaining confidence and best of all, I'm being noticed by many. That is a great achievement in itself.
OK, modified goals:
- Get at least one paid photography gig in the next two months.
- Lose another 20-30 pounds by the end of 2019. That would amount to 1.7 - 2.5 pounds of fat per month.
- Continue to improve at my job with the goal of being promoted by the end of 2019, with the mindset of balancing my time with my D4 and WW where needed. I cannot exceed 50 hours in a workweek to make this happen.
There you go, great modications!
I'm already seeing the rewards, AS. I'm looking great. I'm gaining confidence and best of all, I'm being noticed by many. That is a great achievement in itself.
Absolutely, that's awesome stuff! It's the snowball effect, the more you improve then the more you want to continue with it
Day 176
Warning: Explosive emotional diarrhea incoming.
I had a good, albeit lonely start to the day. Today is usually the day we all get ready as a family and I send off D4 for the week. WW took D4 to OM2 place instead and gave me “freedom”.
My workday was good. I saw AS posts and said “Yeah, I do feel awesome!”. I ended my workday and drove into the city to lift.
Here is where it starts to turn south:
I go the bathroom to change. Before I take off my T-shirt, I look at myself in the mirror and say, “That is an attractive man!” And then I took off my shirt. And I saw my body for what it really was. A 240 pound lump of some muscle with a still-protruding gut, hairy back, and a chest that looks anything but “good”.
But that’s ok! That’s why I’m working out! So that I can mold myself into an attractive MAN! I go to the weight room and crush my workout. My legs are back went through quite the workout. My T-shirt was soaked with sweat and I was gasping for air by the end of it...a kickass workout indeed.
I go into the bathroom to change back into my street clothes, and I peel off my workout shirt.
And I saw my body. And just stared at it. I stared at the definition starting to take place at my neck and shoulders. I stared at my still sagging man-boobs. I started at my stomach that hangs out and becomes pronounced when I wear a belt. I saw my hairy back and shoulders. I stared at my bald head with hair receding from my sides more everyday. I just stared at all of it, and then that voice started to speak to me:
“Are you kidding yourself? Look at you. Yeah you made progress. Good for you! Now tell me, who in their right mind would want to stoop to THAT? Look at you! And the only person that looked past your appearance is gone. YOU pushed her into the arms of a better looking, THINNER man. Do you really think you would end up spending the rest of your life with HER? The dream is gone. You’re alone again. Yeah, you’re a great friend. You’re a great father. But no one like your WW (why not call her your STBXW already? I mean, it’s a matter of time.) will come for you again. Good luck with your “dating” life. It took you 17 years to get that far. I wouldn’t be surprised if it took you another 17 unless you settled.”
And I began to spiral. And then the thoughts of WW having sex with OM2 came into my mind, with OM2 saying:
“ I bet that my GF’s H hates him for being intimate with my WW but that’s ok because she moved on to me and I am hers now. I learned from my two divorces, but the third M to her will be the one that lasts. It’s ok, because we just want him to be happy again. But that’s not my problem. He messed up. He let her go. He should not have been awful to her. Who in their right mind would treat her the way her H did? I won’t. She deserves the best. And I’m it. I sex her up good, I treat her great, I can’t believe the stupid H pushed this W away.”
More spiraling when thoughts of my father came to my mind and reminded me that I deserve this punishment and she left for someone better. I failed at being a good husband. And she is gone. Because I pushed her away. Because of the way I look. All of those thoughts had my dad’s voice behind it.
I cried all the way to an exit ramp overlooking the Columbia. I had to stop because I could not drive anymore. I needed to settle down enough to compose myself and go home.
I’m sitting at the exit ramp, looking across the river to the town where OM2 lives. I am typing this as I look at his town and just go through all of the things WW has done with him. The camping trips, the sex, the weekends of sex. Sex and romance on her birthday. All of the things I took for granted.
And all I can do now is just accept that this is the reality now.
(((Phoenix)))
I don’t really know what to say. I know how easy it is to start to spiral this way. Trust me...we are always our own worst critics...although it sounds as if your father may have been yours. The things people do to their kids.
You do not deserve this. No one does. It is not a punishment even though it feels like one. You did not get to this place by yourself.
Given your description of your day, it sounds like you may be spending a bit too much time alone. You need to get busy with other people and distract yourself from your feelings. I spent my evening playing pool with a large group of people and felt quite happy on the drive home. It helps to get out. Do you have a workout buddy or two? Friends that you can meet up with for a beer or go fishing with? When this happened to a friend of mine, she signed up for an Improv class. She actually met her second husband there. I know that you just want to curl up in a ball. Please don’t. Think of all of us who are going through the same thing. We’re with you. We know you can do this and you must. If not for yourself than for your D4. She loves you unconditionally and she deserves to have a dad who is happy and healthy. You can do it... one step at a time. (((HUGS)))
I go the bathroom to change. Before I take off my T-shirt, I look at myself in the mirror and say, “That is an attractive man!” And then I took off my shirt. And I saw my body for what it really was. A 240 pound lump of some muscle with a still-protruding gut, hairy back, and a chest that looks anything but “good”.
Phoenix, sorry you are having a down day! But my man, we ALL have those thoughts. I'm 5'-8", 160 pounds, about 13% bodyfat, chiseled body from 5 years of weight training and another 3 years of Crossfit, and when I take off my shirt and look in the mirror you know what I see? That damned stubborn band of fat around my lower waist that just refuses to burn off. My GF sees a strong, sexy, muscular, confident man though, so THAT is what I focus on and I shove thoughts of that stupid band of fat into the back of my mind. Women are very attracted to confidence, and hey we don't walk around naked all day so look at yourself with clothes on and remind yourself that you ARE an attractive man! Also remember your goals! You are ON YOUR WAY to being a super stud with your shirt off too! So you're not there yet, don't sweat it! You've got your goals you're working towards so any current excess fat is TEMPORARY. If you want to feel better now then go and get that hair waxed off and maybe hit the tanning bed a bit. That'll give you a boost on the way to losing the rest of the weight.
“ I bet that my GF’s H hates him for being intimate with my WW but that’s ok because she moved on to me and I am hers now. I learned from my two divorces, but the third M to her will be the one that lasts. It’s ok, because we just want him to be happy again. But that’s not my problem. He messed up. He let her go. He should not have been awful to her. Who in their right mind would treat her the way her H did? I won’t. She deserves the best. And I’m it. I sex her up good, I treat her great, I can’t believe the stupid H pushed this W away.”
Most OM's are just thinking "wow I can't believe my luck, I get to bang a married woman so I get plenty of sex without worrying about having to actually put a roof over her head or take care of her kids, this no-strings-attached stuff rocks! Then when the WAS actually gets a divorce and is like "yay now we can set up house together!" then they run for the hills like their tail is on fire. You're mind is painting the rosiest picture possible for them, but reality is probably a lot more mundane.
Dude that was the most unproductive line of thinking ever. Why do that to yourself? You control your thoughts and you control your attitude. I can see how a thought like that may enter your mind but it's on YOU to crush it.
You can change your reality at any point. You can't control her, but you don't have to accept things as they are. You are doing her a favor by giving her an opportunity to come back to your marriage and make amends. You can stop doing that at any time. Isn't she of the same religion as you? She knows how bad this is.
Your body is changing too, you've been going to the gym for what, 6 months? C'mon man. I've been doing it for almost 20 years. It takes time, but hell if you don't like the gut, how much are you running? You have plenty of time right now. As for balding, I can't tell you how many balding men I've seen with babes. Hell I buzz my hair and people call me bald but women love it. Why? B/c you act confident.
And I almost forgot, did your W every say I want to separate b/c of your weight? I bet there was more than that.