All I can say is I agree with you that all that stuff is frustrating bull turds. Especially the “time and space to figure things out.” She has figured them out, she just doesn’t have the guts to say it because it might wound her already fragile sense of self to seem like the “bad one.” I mean, if she’s anything like my W.
So? She’s already the bad one!
But: cool it. Take some deep breaths. Sleep on it.
You don’t want your decision to be based on anger and frustration. You don’t want your actions to be vincdictive or punitive. Being aggressive is not the same as setting a boundary. And it will come across as being controlling because it’s what YOU need.
Don’t do anything you’ll regret. This is a discussion you should have when the initial emotions have died down a bit. Just my opinion based on some of the things I did terribly wrong.
I agree with what you say, but before I found out about the continued contact with OM, we agreed to talk about things in a calm manner tonight. So don’t bring up that I know about the contact tonight?
I also feel like I need to show her, with action, that I’m ready to move on. I’m not going to “make” her leave because I really can’t. But I’ll tell her I can make it real uncomfortable if she wants to stay.
I also feel like I need to show her, with action, that I’m ready to move on. I’m not going to “make” her leave because I really can’t. But I’ll tell her I can make it real uncomfortable if she wants to stay.
That sounds like a really bad idea
I also feel like I need to show her, with action, that I’m ready to move on. I’m not going to “make” her leave because I really can’t. But I’ll tell her I can make it real uncomfortable if she wants to stay.
That sounds like a really bad idea
Can I ask why? I should just go along my merry way while she continues to fake like she’s struggling so hard with what to do all the while maintaining contact with OM?
Sounds like the biggest pushover, whimpy, weakling thing to do......
Dude, you are clearly really angry and frustrated.
What you’re talking about isn’t action. It’s words. And you say “show her.” That’s not showing her anything except that you yell when you’re threatened or angry or both.
I know it FEELS like you HAVE to, but that’s emotions. Go for a walk, go for a drive. Cool off, so your rational mind can choose the best course of action.
By the way, and again this is from experience. Because I thought the same thing. But lashing out, acting tough to get your way, making demands you might not follow through with...that’s perceived as weak and wimpy. Like a child throwing a tantrum. Be the MAN, not the bully.
I’ve had a long time to calm down. I found this contact with OM late this morning.
My “showing herl is by finally telling her that I want her to move out. If she’s not willing to take time and space away from OM to focus on our M and R and what she wants, then why should I allow her to be in this in house separation and get all of the benefits of being married? This limbo period was for her to figure out what she wants. That isn’t going to happen with the constant communication with OM. It’s disrespectful as hell to continue stringing me along like this.
She hasn’t felt any loss or consequence from her actions. If she’s living away from our house and seeing the kids as frequently as she would if/when we divorce, she might finally understand the reality of this situation.
I honestly am at a point where if she leaves and doesn’t come back, I’m going to be OK. She’s chit on me enough and I’m growing tired of that and the utter lack of respect she has for me and our M.
I also feel like I need to show her, with action, that I’m ready to move on. I’m not going to “make” her leave because I really can’t. But I’ll tell her I can make it real uncomfortable if she wants to stay.
That sounds like a really bad idea
Can I ask why? I should just go along my merry way while she continues to fake like she’s struggling so hard with what to do all the while maintaining contact with OM?
Sounds like the biggest pushover, whimpy, weakling thing to do......
You can decide you are going to cohabitate but build a life without her.
You can move out.
Both of those are strong.
Making her life difficult because you can’t control her is weak.
But maybe what I am imagining is different from what you are thinking?
I also feel like I need to show her, with action, that I’m ready to move on. I’m not going to “make” her leave because I really can’t. But I’ll tell her I can make it real uncomfortable if she wants to stay.
That sounds like a really bad idea
Can I ask why? I should just go along my merry way while she continues to fake like she’s struggling so hard with what to do all the while maintaining contact with OM?
Sounds like the biggest pushover, whimpy, weakling thing to do......
You can decide you are going to cohabitate but build a life without her.
You can move out.
Both of those are strong.
Making her life difficult because you can’t control her is weak.
But maybe what I am imagining is different from what you are thinking?
I can’t move out because she can’t afford the mortgage. I can. It’s already understood I get the house. That’s why if anyone moves out is going to be her eventually so why can’t I insist on it being now?
Remember, I’ve been on her time schedule throughout this whole limbo of time and space she told me she needed......
Would I be better off suggesting to her that she should start looking for a place to move to?
Tell her “this isn’t going to work out due to contact still with OM so I’m asking that you start looking for a new place to live.”
And if she says "No". Then what? Seems it gives all the control to her.
And if she says "No". Then what? Seems it gives all the control to her.
I don’t know....nothing I guess but I won’t feel the need to be friendly to her anymore. I’ll be civil, especially in front of the kids, but I won’t be engaging in conversations with her.
What do you suggest I do? She lied to me and our ICs about this whole NC talk she had with OM 2 weeks ago. She has since broken it and I want her to know she isn’t fooling me and I’m not interested in waiting around when she’s in contact still with OM.
I really don’t think she will say No, though.
And if she says "No". Then what? Seems it gives all the control to her.
I don’t know....nothing I guess but I won’t feel the need to be friendly to her anymore. I’ll be civil, especially in front of the kids, but I won’t be engaging in conversations with her.
What do you suggest I do? She lied to me and our ICs about this whole NC talk she had with OM 2 weeks ago. She has since broken it and I want her to know she isn’t fooling me and I’m not interested in waiting around when she’s in contact still with OM.
The last sentence is troubling. Boundaries are about you, not about showing her anything.
But in order to enforce my boundary, which is continued contact with OM while we live under the same roof, I kind of need to let her know that I know....
And W and I both know that I get the house if we D.
But in order to enforce my boundary, which is continued contact with OM while we live under the same roof, I kind of need to let her know that I know....
And W and I both know that I get the house if we D.
That’s an unenforceable boundary unless you are willing to move out or divorce.
Maybe what I just need to do is say, “this isn’t working for me since you are in contact with OM. I can’t control what you do or don’t. However, if you think when we D that we will be “friends”, this pretty much negates that ever being possible. You were suppose to be NC and taking time and space to see what you wanted. That can’t happen with continued contact. I’ll be civil to you but we will not be buddy buddy. I have too much respect for myself for that.”
That a boundary I can enforce. I can also say I no longer want her here. That isn’t telling her to leave. That’s just simply telling her how I feel.
Then she can just stay here, build up her checking account and take off when she’s financially comfortable all the mean while I’m not going to engage with her whatsoever.
A boundary is USELESS unless you are prepared to ENFORCE it. You will be challenged and tested on every one of your boundaries. So make darned sure you can enforce them because if you don't you are wasting your breath and increasing the contempt she feels for you.
Read this post:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2042479#Post2042479
W,
I really hope you didn't do or say anything last night that you are going to regret. Do nothing for a few days take a dep breath and do nothing. You are spinning out of control and making matters worse almost like you are intentionally trying to sabotage yourself. I am going to respond to your post below and be brutally honest.
Maybe what I just need to do is say, “this isn’t working for me since you are in contact with OM. I can’t control what you do or don’t. However, if you think when we D that we will be “friends”, this pretty much negates that ever being possible.
This is a weak threat. Sounds childish. If you don't do what I say I am not going to be friends with you.
You were suppose to be NC and taking time and space to see what you wanted.
She has figured out what she wants. It's OM with proof by her ACTIONS.
That can’t happen with continued contact. I’ll be civil to you but we will not be buddy buddy.
Again, another weak threat.
I have too much respect for myself for that.”
Really? Do you? You have been cheated on by her 3 times that you know of and she continues to disrespect you in your own home.
That a boundary I can enforce. I can also say I no longer want her here. That isn’t telling her to leave. That’s just simply telling her how I feel.
First off that is not a boundary. Second PLEASE PLEASE STOP telling her how you feel. She doesn't care it is obvious by her ACTIONS.
Then she can just stay here, build up her checking account and take off when she’s financially comfortable all the mean while I’m not going to engage with her whatsoever.
Another weak threat.
Look man I know this is not easy but it is very difficult to read your posts watching you dig your own grave. You have to let her go and work on yourself. You are young enough to have a good life and maybe just maybe with time and space and she sees a new Wanted and not someone she can walk all over she will change her mind and reconcile with you.
No more words. Only strong ACTIONS!
Wanted, you are spinning out of control. Stop. Breathe. Relax. Center yourself. You joined a whole month ago and now you are ready to threaten her, kick her out, teach her a lesson, separate. This will all backfire on you in ways you can't even begin to understand right now because your mind is a whirlwind of emotions. Right now your focus should be completely on yourself and the kids. NOT YOUR WIFE. Pull back. Give her time and space while you get out and GAL.
Can I ask why? I should just go along my merry way while she continues to fake like she’s struggling so hard with what to do all the while maintaining contact with OM?
Sounds like the biggest pushover, whimpy, weakling thing to do......
No the wimpy thing to do is to beg her to stay, to rub her feet, wash her clothes, make her a nice dinner, all while she's having an affair. But kicking her out isn't a healthy solution either, not this early in the process anyway. Those are the easy paths. What is the RIGHT thing to do, the HARD thing to do? LEAVE HER ALONE. Pull back, give her time and space, work on yourself, get out, GAL.
My “showing herl is by finally telling her that I want her to move out. If she’s not willing to take time and space away from OM to focus on our M and R and what she wants, then why should I allow her to be in this in house separation and get all of the benefits of being married?
It's her house too, you're not "allowing" anything. She has legal rights. Again, go dark. Work on yourself. You want to punish her, which tells us you are in the wrong frame of mind right now. You've got to pull back and collect yourself.
She hasn’t felt any loss or consequence from her actions. If she’s living away from our house and seeing the kids as frequently as she would if/when we divorce, she might finally understand the reality of this situation.
It usually doesn't happen that way. She'll probably be happy to finally have the independence she thinks she wants so much, at least at first. If you push for S or D, you have to do it with the right mindset, which takes time.
I honestly am at a point where if she leaves and doesn’t come back, I’m going to be OK.
I've seen this happen before, where the LBS thought they would be OK with it and then once it happened they spun into some really nasty depression because it didn't bring them the "relief" they expected. Again I think you are doing this as a reaction to the hurt, you want to push a button and make it go away. There is no magic button though, it takes time to recover.
. Stop. Breathe. Relax. Center yourself.
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wanted you really need to make sure you aren't doing anything on impulse motivated by fear and emotion. This will hurt your sitch not help it. This is why detachment is the highest priority. And it can only happen if you are GAL. So those should be your focus. Stop focusing on her. Focus on Wanted.
Anything you do to manipulate her will backfire. So if you kick her out it should be because you no longer want to live with her. Not because you want to jolt her or control her. She will see right through it.
Thank you all. Had the talk last night. She swore up and down that she hasn't contacted OM. Told me I could look at her phone if I wanted but then went on to say something that I felt the need to respond to and the communication kept on, so I missed the boat in taking her up on her offer to look, unfortunately. I usually can tell when she's lying and I don't think she's lying about it but at this point I'm not ruling anything out. I have no trust in her whatsoever.
My recon, without really explaining it in detail, showed that she either was contacting him or at least was still thinking about him after the NC talk between them. Hard to really explain without giving the details.
I didn't move forward with any talk about her moving out and me not wanting her to live in the house anymore. The discussion was calm and didn't get overheated at all. She thanked me for that and then said some of the stuff I said came as a "surprise." I asked her what surprised her and of course her response was that the distrust I had in her talking to the OM and the fact that I thought this "limbo" period was just for her to get on her feet financially before she bolted. She did validate though and explained that she can understand that's how I feel.
She's really hung up on me "invading her privacy." Which I can go on and on about how that's just ridiculous from her standpoint when she's had 3 As. She was pretty upset about that this morning. I told her that through my intel I had assumed that she contacted OM but it does show pretty clearly that she's still thinking about him. I told her something I saw Sandi write in another thread regarding a woman only being able to desire one man. If she desires OM, there is no way she can desire me and maybe that's the explanation I'm looking for on that matter. She told me this morning via a text exchange that our R is intrusive and toxic which is contradictory to what she wants. I validated her and told her I'm done invading her privacy, as she says, because nothing ever comes about from it. All it does is provide me another gut punch anytime I've done it in the past and it's unhealthy for me.
She's of course using my "blow up" (if you want to call it that) and the conversation last night and text exchange this morning as proof that I'm not changing the way I said I'm going to. I told her I can't just flip a switch and that I warned her that I wasn't going to guarantee I can change overnight. That I might fall back into that trap, etc. and that I'm human and make mistakes. I guess if she wants to base her entire decision on my mistakes over the past 24 hours, then so be it. Nothing I can do or change about it. I can make it a point to do better in the future however and I vow to do everything possible to do that.
I'm done talking R (I know, something I should have done 7 weeks ago!). Nothing good ever comes from it and anything I say, she either focuses on the small negative or implies whatever I'm saying in a negative light. She can't let go of the negative and never acknowledges anything positive. I'm leaving it in God's hands. If it's meant to be, he will make it happen. Probably through a miracle by Him at this point. It seems pretty hopeless in my eyes at this time. But I'm finally at the point where I understand it's her choice and decision and there's not a damn thing I can do about it. I'm ready to accept whatever the outcome and am going to start putting all of my focus on myself and my kids. If she wants to leave, which seems inevitable right now, I'l learn to deal with it.
We are scheduled to talk to a religious advisor (the priest that married us who is a very good family friend of my W and her family) next week. Maybe the miracle I'm looking for will take the place in that discussion, but I'm not going to expect for that to be the case. My W is pretty distant from me at this point.
I didn't move forward with any talk about her moving out and me not wanting her to live in the house anymore.
Good it would have blew up in your face and not given you the reaction you were looking for from her.
I told her something I saw Sandi write in another thread regarding a woman only being able to desire one man. If she desires OM, there is no way she can desire me and maybe that's the explanation I'm looking for on that matter.
Your'e still trying to use logic and reason with her which is a waste of your time and shows her your still attached.
She told me this morning via a text exchange that our R is intrusive and toxic which is contradictory to what she wants.
That's why we keep trying to prevent you from digging a bigger hole.
She's of course using my "blow up" (if you want to call it that) and the conversation last night and text exchange this morning as proof that I'm not changing the way I said I'm going to. I told her I can't just flip a switch and that I warned her that I wasn't going to guarantee I can change overnight. That I might fall back into that trap, etc. and that I'm human and make mistakes.
Logic and reason see above.
'm done talking R (I know, something I should have done 7 weeks ago!). Nothing good ever comes from it and anything I say, she either focuses on the small negative or implies whatever I'm saying in a negative light.
By George I think he's got it! Touching the hot stove ow ow ow ow ow ow ow
But I'm finally at the point where I understand it's her choice and decision and there's not a damn thing I can do about it.
Took me awhile to get there too.
We are scheduled to talk to a religious advisor (the priest that married us who is a very good family friend of my W and her family) next week. Maybe the miracle I'm looking for will take the place in that discussion, but I'm not going to expect for that to be the case. My W is pretty distant from me at this point.
What is the meeting about?
Well, you can’t say we didn’t warn you...
She's really hung up on me "invading her privacy."
This one always steams me. A serial cheater claiming she should have an expectation of privacy.
Wanted, what are you trying to save at this point? I really do think people deserve a 2nd, or even 3rd chance. But 3 A's??? At some point you might want to just cut bait and run. i know this is an anti-D board, but sometimes D is what a LBS should go after.
I'm done talking R ...............
We are scheduled to talk to a religious advisor (the priest that married us who is a very good family friend of my W and her family) next week. Maybe the miracle I'm looking for will take the place in that discussion, but I'm not going to expect for that to be the case. My W is pretty distant from me at this point.
Sounds like you arent done talking.......
Are you cancelling the MC sessions also?
She's of course using my "blow up" (if you want to call it that) and the conversation last night and text exchange this morning as proof that I'm not changing the way I said I'm going to. I told her I can't just flip a switch and that I warned her that I wasn't going to guarantee I can change overnight. That I might fall back into that trap, etc. and that I'm human and make mistakes. I guess if she wants to base her entire decision on my mistakes over the past 24 hours, then so be it. Nothing I can do or change about it. I can make it a point to do better in the future however and I vow to do everything possible to do that.
Wanted, why in the world are you trying to negotiate with a lying cheater. I don't call her that to make you mad, but to hopefully remind you what you are up against. She is a wayward wife. She lies. She cheats. You can't negotiate, reason, beg, plead, etc. with a wayward. She will twist everything up and use it against you and make you out to be the bad guy. That's classic deflection. Stop throwing ammo to her to make bombs out of to stuff down your throat. Read what we've been telling you and don't just say " thank you all" and ignore it and do your own thing (which up to this point is EXACTLY what you've been doing).
I'm done talking R (I know, something I should have done 7 weeks ago!). Nothing good ever comes from it and anything I say, she either focuses on the small negative or implies whatever I'm saying in a negative light.
Just like we've been telling you all along!
She can't let go of the negative and never acknowledges anything positive.
Right, that's what WAS's do. We call it "rewriting history".
We are scheduled to talk to a religious advisor (the priest that married us who is a very good family friend of my W and her family) next week.
WHY??????? Seriously, it's a waste of time. If she was one foot out the door that would be OK, but she's two feet out the door.
[quote=Wanted1] We are scheduled to talk to a religious advisor (the priest that married us who is a very good family friend of my W and her family) next week. Maybe the miracle I'm looking for will take the place in that discussion, but I'm not going to expect for that to be the case. My W is pretty distant from me at this point.
What is the meeting about?
This is basically my shot and, quite frankly, MY last effort in busting this D. My W admires and respect this man very much. He's a Catholic Bishop now, so he's obviously going to be pro-marriage. I think if anyone can talk some logic and sense into her, it will be him. She's always been very religious and spiritual (ironic considering the 3 extramarital A huh?!) This is probably where the miracle from above will take place if He intends us to stay together. However, I'm not expecting anything to happen. What he says will probably go in one ear and out the other much like everything else that's been said to her has. I'm still going to work on detaching in the meantime and will be adamant about NO R talk between now and then.
Well, you can’t say we didn’t warn you...
Yep, guilty as charged.
She's really hung up on me "invading her privacy."
This one always steams me. A serial cheater claiming she should have an expectation of privacy.
Wanted, what are you trying to save at this point? I really do think people deserve a 2nd, or even 3rd chance. But 3 A's??? At some point you might want to just cut bait and run. i know this is an anti-D board, but sometimes D is what a LBS should go after.
It really aggravates me too. SO MUCH. But I can't do much about it.
Steve, I hear you. I often step back and think to myself "why the hell am I trying to save this?" I don't mean this to sound preachy at all, but for some reason God is telling me to fight for my M. I've prayed so much and have never gotten a feeling that I should just give up and cash in. Lately, though, I do feel more comfortable and calm with the realization that I'm likely to be D in the not so distant future. That doesn't bother me as much anymore. I've been praying for my own strength as well. Maybe those prayers are being answered now, I don't know.
To be honest, if the meeting I'm speaking about above doesn't offer me any hope of moving toward R, I think I'm just going to count my losses and move on. I'm comfortable now with that outcome and I don't think anyone can say I wasn't justified or that I didn't at least try everything in my power to save my M. I take comfort in both of those.
She's of course using my "blow up" (if you want to call it that) and the conversation last night and text exchange this morning as proof that I'm not changing the way I said I'm going to. I told her I can't just flip a switch and that I warned her that I wasn't going to guarantee I can change overnight. That I might fall back into that trap, etc. and that I'm human and make mistakes. I guess if she wants to base her entire decision on my mistakes over the past 24 hours, then so be it. Nothing I can do or change about it. I can make it a point to do better in the future however and I vow to do everything possible to do that.
Wanted, why in the world are you trying to negotiate with a lying cheater. I don't call her that to make you mad, but to hopefully remind you what you are up against. She is a wayward wife. She lies. She cheats. You can't negotiate, reason, beg, plead, etc. with a wayward. She will twist everything up and use it against you and make you out to be the bad guy. That's classic deflection. Stop throwing ammo to her to make bombs out of to stuff down your throat. Read what we've been telling you and don't just say " thank you all" and ignore it and do your own thing (which up to this point is EXACTLY what you've been doing).
I'm done talking R (I know, something I should have done 7 weeks ago!). Nothing good ever comes from it and anything I say, she either focuses on the small negative or implies whatever I'm saying in a negative light.
Just like we've been telling you all along!
She can't let go of the negative and never acknowledges anything positive.
Right, that's what WAS's do. We call it "rewriting history".
We are scheduled to talk to a religious advisor (the priest that married us who is a very good family friend of my W and her family) next week.
WHY??????? Seriously, it's a waste of time. If she was one foot out the door that would be OK, but she's two feet out the door.
I know I've made mistakes and I appreciate everyone calling me out on them. I'm learning, albeit slowly. That answer to your last question is addressed above.
Hey man, glad to see you’ve cooled off.
Two things stand out to me from your last post. OK, two and a half. First, that’s super cool that you know a bishop! But: you used the words “logic” and “sense” which just don’t apply here. Even under normal circumstances, human emotions don’t operate under the laws of logic and sense (that’s actually what makes them really cool to study, from a neuroscience perspective). Even less so in a crisis. In hindsight, do you feel like you were thinking logically or sensibly last night?
That segues into the other thing. PATIENCE. I’m one of the least patient people I know. And I’m telling you to be patient. So that’s a good sign of an opportunity for a 180. Now, I have no idea how to train myself to be patient. Maybe stare at a piece of pizza and see how long I can go without eating it?
Anyway, look. You’re new here. You’re talking a good game. You’re using all of the right terminology. But after what went down last night, sorry but I just don’t buy it. Seems like it’s much too soon. Or I’m completely wrong, I dunno. But take one gigantic step back and try to look at things from a “beginner’s mind.” And consider what you have going in your favor. Take time to make a decision. Read about the people who thought they were detached but weren’t, even AnotherStander, who is like the Odin of this board... patience. Marathon. At least a year of hard, hard work.
The nice thing is that you get to choose. And take the advice with a grain of salt. We don’t know you or your W. Objectively, if all we know is that she has a bad A habit, and you’re a decent guy, then yeah, it could be a character flaw that won’t ever change. But you know her and you know you. And right now everything is HER fault according to you. Obviously because you can’t fit ALL of the details into a post here. But ask yourself some questions. Why did you get married? What were your expectations? Are there things about you that you could identify, if you took a really honest look at yourself? Because right now there’s too much blame on her. At one point she felt that she wanted to spend her life with you. Then that changed. Why? Can you think of things about YOU that result in her having to fulfill her needs elsewhere? And what are those needs? And why weren’t you fulfilling them?
THAT’s what’s in your power. Until you’ve done at LEAST that, you HAVEN’T done everything your power to save the M. Or at least to get to a better one, with W or with whomever.
That kind of soul searching hurts like a donkey but you WILL benefit from it if you really are detached and if it turns out that your future with W has been irreparably tainted by her behavior. Because the next lady will get a H who is introspective, sensitive to her needs, confident in his ability to think about these things, blah blah blah.
And she will eat. it. up. You’ll be exhausted from all of the sex. She’ll cling to you like pine sap. I mean that’s sort of how I envision it. Could be the beer talking.
I'm done talking R ...............
We are scheduled to talk to a religious advisor (the priest that married us who is a very good family friend of my W and her family) next week. Maybe the miracle I'm looking for will take the place in that discussion, but I'm not going to expect for that to be the case. My W is pretty distant from me at this point.
Sounds like you arent done talking.......
Are you cancelling the MC sessions also?
I addressed the first comment in my previous post.
No more joint sessions scheduled right now. Gonna be a little hard now that W has the new job, but if the topic comes up, I’ll be declining unless my W proves through her actions she’s willing to do what it takes to try and work toward R. The two we did didn’t do any good, anyway, other than give W a soapbox to air her grievances with me, so there is no point.
W texted me this morning that I'm supposed to write to the religious advisor (priest that married us) and explain my experiences with what's going on in our marriage. She said her IC suggested we each write to him ahead of our meeting so he has a chance to digest it all and so the meeting doesn't so freaking long with us going through it all during it. She reached out to him to ask if he was acceptable with this and responded that he thinks it would be a good idea.
I'm a little relieved because then I was able to put some thought into all of the background of what transpired. I sent mine this morning and it was looooong. I didn't go into too much detail, but I explained the As and tried to summarize as best as I could what's all taken place since BD.
I'm sure W's little summary will be quite lengthy too, and will be filled with how unhappy she's been in our marriage from the start and how terrible I am and this and that.
I acknowledged to him that I'm convinced it's going to take a miracle from above and that if that miracle is going to come, it almost has to come in the form of this meeting. He was recently appointed a Bishop and lives about 10 hours from where we live currently. I truly believe there is a little divine intervention at play with this, because when I reached out to him on Saturday night about the possibility of meeting, he replied back that he is literally only going to be about 20 min from W's parents house to celebrate Thanksgiving with some of his family. W, kids and possibly I will be out there for Thanksgiving. He suggested we meet with him Friday morning which is absolutely perfect as far as logistics are concerned. That's almost too much of a coincidence.
I'm trying not to get my hopes up too much and to remain guarded, but I'm somewhat hopeful nonetheless. W adores this man immensely. I think that if anyone can speak to her and get through to her either he, or God through him, can. If not, then I think the writing is pretty much on the wall and I'm comfortable in my belief that I did everything in my power to try to salvage this M.
Next Friday is very pivotal IMO. I don't expect there to be some monumental "come to Jesus" moment for my W during the meeting, it would be nice if there was, however that seems unrealistic. I will look for those baby steps that might indicate she's at least considering moving in my direction. If there appears to be nothing, then like I said, the writing is pretty much on the wall. I will be moving forward as if we are official done. I have to for my own sanity and health.
I acknowledged to him that I'm convinced it's going to take a miracle from above and that if that miracle is going to come, it almost has to come in the form of this meeting.
Geez! Nothing like putting pressure on the poor guy.
Based on your past history I wish you would have posted the letter first. It's bound to come up in conversation.
W, DB is a process. It takes time and your commitment to follow that process. Don’t wait for magic bullets. You can’t change W feelings with a snap of your fingers.
Patience W.
I acknowledged to him that I'm convinced it's going to take a miracle from above and that if that miracle is going to come, it almost has to come in the form of this meeting.
Geez! Nothing like putting pressure on the poor guy.
Based on your past history I wish you would have posted the letter first. It's bound to come up in conversation.
LOL, I thought about that after I sent it. "I need a miracle, hope you're up for it!"
It was honestly too long to put on here.
He replied and said "thank you for these words, it is good to read your words." I've never considered myself a wordsmith by any means. in fact, I've always had my W basically redraft any type of letter or communication I needed to send out for work. She is on another planet when it comes to that sort of thing.
W, DB is a process. It takes time and your commitment to follow that process. Don’t wait for magic bullets. You can’t change W feelings with a snap of your fingers.
Patience W.
I know that and I've now, finally, accepted the reality of it. It [censored] to not have control over your own life WRT your M. Its a hard thing to come to realize. At least for me. You can't control anyone but yourself and a M includes another person. I guess it took a lot of failings in trying to do so for me to come to grips with it.
I know there are no magic bullets, but I don't foresee this hurting my chances. Maybe I'll be wrong (again). If it does, well, I guess I can chalk it up as another 'good effort but no dice' situation. This is my last ditch effort. If nothing good comes from it, I can't do much about it but be comfortable knowing I tried.
I do know if I didn't push for this meeting I would always regret that I didn't.
Just manage expectations W. There is not a black or white solution. And there is nothing definitive. Each road chosen needs a sacrifice to be made. You must work on yourself no matter what happens at the meeting. PMA man!
Wishing the best outcome for you and your family W!
Just manage expectations W. There is not a black or white solution. And there is nothing definitive. Each road chosen needs a sacrifice to be made. You must work on yourself no matter what happens at the meeting. PMA man!
Wishing the best outcome for you and your family W!
Thanks so much for the support and kind words. It will be a long road to R. That I’m sure of. And it probably has to be in order for it to last. We both have a lot of work to do and I’ve already started down the path to become a better person. Im doing it regardless of the outcome.
I hear you about managing expectations. I’m definitely trying to. I’m hopeful, but also realize that there is a pretty good chance she’s too far gone for anything to change her mind and feelings. I really don’t understand how or why and probably will never know or understand.
If nothing good comes from it, I can't do much about it but be comfortable knowing I tried.
This line of thinking doesnt make any sense to me. If you were in prison, you wouldnt smash your head against the wall 50 times and then walk away saying "well, I didnt think I was going to be able to tunnel my way out of jail by hitting my head against the wall, but at least I tried." To me, the process is about setting goals, it's about consistent change, it's about learning new skills and implementing them, it's about finding out what is important to you, and so on. In my opinions, a hail mary is basically that. But right now, you're in the middle of the first quarter. I feel like you cant see it at this point, because youre too emotionally invested. But you are just starting to recognize your patterns and the issues in your marriage. Youve been here for what, a month?
This meeting may help. My guess and experience suggests to me that she will tune him out if he is suggesting anything other than "you deserve to be happy. Find what makes you happy." But, Ive been surprised before.
I hope that before and after the meeting you are still working on the things I listed above!
I hear you about managing expectations. I’m definitely trying to. I’m hopeful, but also realize that there is a pretty good chance she’s too far gone for anything to change her mind and feelings. I really don’t understand how or why and probably will never know or understand.
I guess here's an opportunity to be optimistic. Right now, she IS too far gone for anything to change her mind and feelings. But, what might change her mind and feelings, if anything, is time and space. Time enough to let the bad feelings wear off, time enough to realize that the good feelings weren't as permanent as she thought they would be. Space to allow the time to do its work.
There's no silver bullet.
If nothing good comes from it, I can't do much about it but be comfortable knowing I tried.
This line of thinking doesnt make any sense to me. If you were in prison, you wouldnt smash your head against the wall 50 times and then walk away saying "well, I didnt think I was going to be able to tunnel my way out of jail by hitting my head against the wall, but at least I tried." To me, the process is about setting goals, it's about consistent change, it's about learning new skills and implementing them, it's about finding out what is important to you, and so on. In my opinions, a hail mary is basically that. But right now, you're in the middle of the first quarter. I feel like you cant see it at this point, because youre too emotionally invested. But you are just starting to recognize your patterns and the issues in your marriage. Youve been here for what, a month?
This meeting may help. My guess and experience suggests to me that she will tune him out if he is suggesting anything other than "you deserve to be happy. Find what makes you happy." But, Ive been surprised before.
I hope that before and after the meeting you are still working on the things I listed above!
What I meant by saying that is, sort of explained in my last sentence after it. I would regret not doing this meeting down the road. I would always wonder "what if." If I would have pushed for the meeting, would that have maybe been the turning point? I don't mean it in a totalitarian sense of my entire situation. I think that's maybe how you took it?
If nothing good comes from it, it isn't like I'm going to file for D immediately afterwards. I know it is going to take time and space. A lot of time. I feel like it needs to take a lot of time because if anything is rushed, the chances of more problems coming up down the road are probably greater. I'm not expecting for this to be an "aha moment" where she suddenly, during the meeting, as an intense desire to be with me again. While that would be nice, that is completely unrealistic. A positive outcome from it would be any type of small step back in my direction.
I hear you about managing expectations. I’m definitely trying to. I’m hopeful, but also realize that there is a pretty good chance she’s too far gone for anything to change her mind and feelings. I really don’t understand how or why and probably will never know or understand.
I guess here's an opportunity to be optimistic. Right now, she IS too far gone for anything to change her mind and feelings. But, what might change her mind and feelings, if anything, is time and space. Time enough to let the bad feelings wear off, time enough to realize that the good feelings weren't as permanent as she thought they would be. Space to allow the time to do its work.
There's no silver bullet.
Totally agree. I'm being pleasant around her. Asking how her day went at the new job, etc. General small talk. I will not engage in any R talk at all. That is my #1 priority/main goal right now. If she wants to engage, I'll listen and validate, but I am absolutely done sharing my thoughts and feelings with her. 1) because I've already done that too much and 2) anything I say right now is twisted into some sort of a negative anyway.
I know some on here advise that I shouldn't be chit chatting with her about routine stuff, but I tried not engaging in any talk with her for a couple days this past weekend and afterwards, during our last conversation about our situation, she told me that I was once again "shutting down." That is one of the things that she claims to be an issue with me in the past. That I would give her the "silent treatment" and she would be constantly wondering what she did wrong. Seems ironic though when I think about it. She wants time and space from me but then when I truly give her time and space she accuses me of shutting down like I've always done. Apparently its a very thin line. I'm going to try to remain friendly and engage in general conversation with her and remove any and all possibilities of anything moving into a R talk and see where that gets me.
Hey man. Hope you’re doing OK. How did that meeting go?
I missed this last post somehow.
she told me that I was once again "shutting down." That is one of the things that she claims to be an issue with me in the past. That I would give her the "silent treatment" and she would be constantly wondering what she did wrong. Seems ironic though when I think about it. She wants time and space from me but then when I truly give her time and space she accuses me of shutting down like I've always done. Apparently its a very thin line.
Its not a thin line, but it is a scary line. Steve85 comments on this occasionally and it’s a tough one to get past. But basically, the rules have changed. Not pursuing is different from not listening/caring. Back then they wanted you all up in their face. Now they want the opposite. If you’re anything like me, back then you wanted your space, and now you want to be all up in there. See? BD changes everything. Human emotions are super weird.
And anyway, believe nothing they say. She’ll see you dropping the pursuit, she feels a loss of control, she goes right for the easiest thing: complain about the pattern she sees of Wanted1 “shutting down.” But don’t take it too seriously. It’s an attempt at regaining control, or justifying her actions, or whatever. Water off a duck.
burned is right on the money here.
True loving detachment is not "shutting down". Active listening. Validating. It just means you aren't starting conversations and interactions. Because she has asked for time and space. However, when she does initiate you listen, and validate.
burned was also right about her picking the easiest thing to complain about. "You're shutting down." If you pursued she accuse you of smothering her and not giving her the time and space she asked for. LBS can hardly ever do anything right in the WAS' eyes post bomb day. It is just the way it is. Just keep GAL. Keep 180ing. Keep detaching.
Also, please heed these words by burned: "And anyway, believe nothing they say." "Water off a duck." Her words are useless. They are based on emotions. And her emotions change from one minute to the next. My WW used to say all the time "when I say something it is how I feel at that moment. But that can be different 5 minutes later." Why? Because she knew what she was saying was illogical, didn't make sense, and was contradictory to other things she had said. This is why you can't believe a word. Not a single word.
I learned from the best! Just passing it on.
Also, something I realized from dealing with my W: believe nothing they say when they say that they’re NOT emotional and that they’re being perfectly rational. Nope! Just a smoke screen. Do they believe it? Maybe. Doesn’t make them right.
Steve and burned,
For some reason this is exactly what I needed today. A perfect reassurance for me. I appreciate it a lot.
Burned, meeting is on Friday, so I'm looking forward to that.
You guys are right, nothing I do is ever right. It is so true, thus far, it's almost hilarious. "You are smothering me with your thoughts and feelings, I need time and space." Then 3 days later, "You've shut down like you always do. I'm over here worrying what I did wrong now to upset you." When in reality, I just haven't been initiating any conversations with her. The reason it feels like I've shut down is because I'm the one that has been initiating EVERY conversation between the two of us since BD!
All of this fits her mindset and current strategy, which is, pick and choose the pieces (e.g. what I say or what I do) that bests fits the puzzle she's trying to put together. If it fits what she she's trying to accomplish or is something she can twist and use as an excuse or to justify her current feelings, then man does she run with it and it's 100% gospel! If not, well, it isn't even given a second thought.
She's been reading all of these self-help books and I want to ask her where in those books does it explain that it really helps focus on all of the negatives about a situation! Because what I've been reading has been instructing me and providing me with tools and techniques to do the exact opposite! (Don't worry, I'm not bringing this up to her!)
I really, really, really would like to know what I did that makes her resent me so much and basically gives her the unwavering belief that it's unforgivable in her eyes! I know I'll never get that answer but I am very confused and really curious how she thinks she can justify it. NOTHING I've done in this M is bad enough to justify a D. What she has certainly does, but the only thing she can accuse me of is probably not being the best at communicating and probably "shut down" when my NGS covert contracts aren't met. FFS, that happens in almost every M! And it's something that can be fixed. AND it takes 2 to communicate effectively. She isn't the greatest communicator either.
Me new mantra is "water off a duck's back." Thank you for this!
If I don't talk to anyone in the meantime, I hope everyone has a Happy Thanksgiving.
I'll update my thread after the meeting on Friday. If you have time, say a prayer for me -- I need a miracle I'm afraid and there is only one person that can grant them!
I learned from the best! Just passing it on.
Also, something I realized from dealing with my W: believe nothing they say when they say that they’re NOT emotional and that they’re being perfectly rational. Nope! Just a smoke screen. Do they believe it? Maybe. Doesn’t make them right.
Dude, there is ZERO logic and rationale going on with my W right now. None, Notta, Zippo. It's actually frightening!
We are wishing the best for you man. Sure we are. But remember things you need to do, always do, you have to love yourself, value yourself.
Then she needs a miracle too cause it’s going to be her loss. Right?
Hoping for the best W1!
Also, please heed these words by burned: "And anyway, believe nothing they say." "Water off a duck." Her words are useless. They are based on emotions. And her emotions change from one minute to the next. My WW used to say all the time "when I say something it is how I feel at that moment. But that can be different 5 minutes later." Why? Because she knew what she was saying was illogical, didn't make sense, and was contradictory to other things she had said
This one baffled me for a long time before finding this sight. It still is crazy to me how contradictory a 5 minute conversation with W could be. Nothing that has ever been said about the sitch from W has ever made any sense, the convo would usually start with a complaint of some sort or a request on what she needed but two minutes later was completely opposite. Now that I am really working on not believing any of it I feel more at peace with my role in the M.
I really, really, really would like to know what I did that makes her resent me so much and basically gives her the unwavering belief that it's unforgivable in her eyes! I know I'll never get that answer but I am very confused and really curious how she thinks she can justify it. NOTHING I've done in this M is bad enough to justify a D. What she has certainly does, but the only thing she can accuse me of is probably not being the best at communicating and probably "shut down" when my NGS covert contracts aren't met. FFS, that happens in almost every M! And it's something that can be fixed. AND it takes 2 to communicate effectively. She isn't the greatest communicator either.
We all wish we knew the answer to that. The simplest answer, to me, is that we've all done plenty of little things wrong, but the WW did something WORSE and KNOWS it and doesn't feel strong enough to admit it, so she shifts the blame. And what better way to shift the blame than to pick one of the many things that USED to bother her but she overlooked it because she was in love with YOU and not HIM. Something like that.
As for the second part, I'm right there with you. But this kind of logic doesn't apply right now. During piecing, definitely. But that's after R. Right now it can't be fixed, except by us, alone. Later, maybe there's an opportunity to work on communication. But that won't be until she feels that attraction and wants to get cozy with your privates. Until OM gets hit by a bus, it isn't too likely. Any bus drivers around? I can give you the address.
Yep B, but before the attraction comes respect.
I really, really, really would like to know what I did that makes her resent me so much and basically gives her the unwavering belief that it's unforgivable in her eyes! I know I'll never get that answer but I am very confused and really curious how she thinks she can justify it. NOTHING I've done in this M is bad enough to justify a D. What she has certainly does, but the only thing she can accuse me of is probably not being the best at communicating and probably "shut down" when my NGS covert contracts aren't met. FFS, that happens in almost every M! And it's something that can be fixed. AND it takes 2 to communicate effectively. She isn't the greatest communicator either.
We all wish we knew the answer to that. The simplest answer, to me, is that we've all done plenty of little things wrong, but the WW did something WORSE and KNOWS it and doesn't feel strong enough to admit it, so she shifts the blame. And what better way to shift the blame than to pick one of the many things that USED to bother her but she overlooked it because she was in love with YOU and not HIM. Something like that.
I think guilt must be so terrible for the WW. How toxic to know logically you've done something unforgivable, but emotionally "needed". I don't know how it works, and I can't pretend to know. It doesn't excuse the behavior, but for me it helps with a bit of explanation. Guilt is just poison in their bodies they can't get rid of at this point in time, and it makes them say and do terrible things.
Well, I'm coming here to vent so I don't do something irrational, but first a slight update:
Meeting with Bishop didn't really accomplish much. He has always been W's spiritual advisor and has basically been family of hers for a long, long time. He spoke about her past and how fragile her state of mind is right now because of opening up all of those wounds. Told us both that she needs time to heal herself and that she might not have it in her to be a W right now. It's going to take all of her energy to be a mother and focus on getting herself right. I'm not sure what sort of a synopsis she gave him prior to the meeting but he told me what she wrote about was vastly different than what I did. He suggested we share what each of us wrote to him with each other so we know where the other is coming from. We haven't yet and TBH, I'm not interested in seeing what she wrote. Maybe IF she would ever make the decision to try to R I would be interested but at this point I'm not, at all.
Something she said in the meeting though has really bothered me. She made mention of "fearing" what I would do to her, the kids and the house and used a conversation we had a couple weeks ago as justification for those fears. During that conversation, she was frustrating me to no end with the constant focus on negatives and twisting my words to fit her narrative. I was irritated as hell and grabbed a couple tiny rubber disks that were on the counter about the size of a silver dollar and threw them down the hallway, which was in the exact opposite direction of her. I'll repeat, they were thrown in the complete opposite direction of where she was standing. I've never once threatened physical harm to her or anything remotely close. I'm not a violent person at all. The thought of laying a hand on her has never, ever, crossed my mind in everything we've been through and that is the honest to God truth. This mindset tells me one of two things: 1) She is using it as a manipulation tactic to further justify her reasons for wanting to leave or 2) if she truly does fear harm from me, that speaks volumes to just how broken and fragile she is right now. Like I said, she has NO reason to fear any type of physical harm from me. I've never given her even the slightest idea that I would do anything like that, ever.
My only response when she said this during her meeting was, "You seriously think I would harm the kids?!?" To which she replied, "Oh did I say the kids? No, I don't think you would hurt the kids." I then just let it pass and didn't say anything more but since she said that, I can't help but think WTF is going on right now!
Fast forward to this past weekend. We got home from Thanksgiving at her parents on Saturday. We drove separate so I was home before her and the kids. Once they were home and we got the kids to bed, I left to go GAL. There was a community get together down town. On Sunday morning, I added to the shared calendar 'Wanted1 gone' for next weekend. Afterwards, she came into the MBR where I was and asked to talk to me. She said that I can shut her out and she understands it but she would appreciate it, since we are parents together, to let her know when I'm leaving. She then claimed that S3 was up crying and wandering around upstairs while I was gone. She sleeps in the basement. She said if she would have known I was gone, she would have slept on the couch upstairs. Some of this is sort of BS because she would have gotten a notification on her phone from the security camera app showing me leaving. She then went on to say, "Are you just living the single life now or what?" All I really responded was, "No, didn't think so. I just went down to the [community event]."
So, my GAL activity that is planned for this coming weekend is out of town. I found out that there is a Retrouvaille program in the same city for this weekend. I decided that I was going to ask one last time and see if she would be interested in attending. I texted her that I was sure I knew the answer but thought I'd ask anyway since my family is my #1 priority and I would gladly miss GAL activity if she were interested. She responded a couple hours later with "Let me think about it." In the past, she has been pretty vocal about her "hesitations" with Retrouvaille. I've suggested it probably 3-4 times in the past 2 months as something I would like to try. I'm not getting my hopes up with her response as I'm sure she will not be in favor of attending but the fact that she just didn't shut it down right off the bat is interesting.
So here is where i need to vent a little bit -- This morning I did some recon and found out that W and OM from earlier this year, who was my best friend, are now texting again. It looks like he reached out to her first yesterday. There were texts back and forth a couple times throughout the day but also quite a few back and forth this morning starting VERY early. 4:30 A.M. I'm not sure what I should do with this info. Part of me wants to burn everything to the freaking ground right now. Out the contact to OM W, tell both OM and W that I know they are talking again and tell her to file for the freaking D already and get the hell out of the house.
In the past, I would be confronting her about it as we speak. But, I'm feeling now like I should just sit on this. Monitor it a little more and see just how intense it gets, etc. I'm still waiting for the answer to Retrouvaille. I wondering if when she tells me she's still not comfortable in going if I should just response with something like, "Ok, that's fine. I'm having second thoughts on wanting to do it at this juncture anyway, so that's probably for the best," and let her stew about why I would say that? Do I let her know that I know they are communicating again? I feel like I want her to know that I know so that she knows I'm not as big of an idiot as she thinks I am. She will claim it is "nothing but random conversation," I'm almost positive of that and then accuse me of snooping and invading her privacy and freak out over that. What she doesn't realize is how damn inappropriate and disrespectful it is to simply be in contact with OM. I feel like I'm dealing with a 7 year old who doesn't understand normal adult concepts. My IC told me at the last session that sometimes sex abuse victims have their emotional behaviors and growth stunted right at the time of the abuse. I'm seriously beginning to wonder if that is what is wrong here! Because her reasonings and excuses and feelings seem so immature and childish.
W,
It is frustrating to read your posts sometimes.
You do not want to go to Retrouvaille with her RIGHT NOW! It would be a complete waste of time and money. It is for people who are actively working on their marriage. You are not because she has checked out!
You busted her again with with another OM who happens to be your friend. WTF?
Why, why, why do you feel you deserve to be treated this way?
Your W completely understands what she is doing and she doesn't care because she doesn't respect you and she doesn't respect you mainly because you don't respect yourself.
Sandi has stated it a million times on this board that a woman can not love a man she doesn't respect.
How can you get your respect back? Let her go, walk away and never look back until she comes to you and EARNS another chance with you.
W,
It is frustrating to read your posts sometimes.
You do not want to go to Retrouvaille with her RIGHT NOW! It would be a complete waste of time and money. It is for people who are actively working on their marriage. You are not because she has checked out!
You busted her again with with another OM who happens to be your friend. WTF?
Why, why, why do you feel you deserve to be treated this way?
Your W completely understands what she is doing and she doesn't care because she doesn't respect you and she doesn't respect you mainly because you don't respect yourself.
Sandi has stated it a million times on this board that a woman can not love a man she doesn't respect.
How can you get your respect back? Let her go, walk away and never look back until she comes to you and EARNS another chance with you.
Let me explain something, the suggestion of Retrouvaille happened before finding out about this most recent stuff. I'm honestly at a point where I'm ready to let her go and walk away. I want to know HOW? Tell her tonight that I know she's talking to former best friend and that I'm done and she needs to move out? She's been contemplating moving out for a couple weeks now so it isn't like I'm kicking her out.
Even before your latest discovery you shouldn't have brought it up.
I wouldn't even bring your friend up. Just keep living your life for you and the kids until she moves out and files.
Why are you still snooping anyway?
Wanted1.......
So I am struggling here. Where in the above post, other than attending the GAL community event, is there any DBing going on?
Let's recap:
1) You admit to losing your cool and throwing something down the hall.
2) You then ask her to attend Retrouvaille
3) You then snoop and find out her and OM are still in contact
4) You are still planning on attending Retrouvaille if she agrees DESPITE wanting to burn everything to the ground over the texting
5) You then find it inappropriate and disrespectful for her to be in contact with OM despite the fact that you are supposed to be giving her time and space, concentrating on you (GAL, 180s, and DETACHMENT (capitalized because you are failing royally in that department).
On top of it, overall this post is full of a microscope pointed squarely at her.
So let's discuss all of this:
First, losing your cool and throwing something down the hall. BAD BAD BAD. Read many other poster's sitches and you will see that WAWs, and especially WWs, will use any excuse to cast you in a bad light related to their "fear" of what you you will do. Read OrangeK's sitch. He has been under a TRO for a longtime because he lost his cool and punched his STBXW's car. One of the things we try to impress on newbies is to never ever give your WAW any inkling of a loss of control related to anger and temper. Many a LBH has been slapped with a restraining order and escorted in handcuffs out of his own house. Don't be that guy. I highly suggest you start looking into temper control mechanisms. As a former temper-tantrum guy myself I would be willing to bet that this disc throwing incident isn't your first temper loss of control incident. So 180 on that PRONTO.
2) Retrouvaille. WHY? WHY would you ask again? Just go on your GAL trip. The Bishop gave you some very insightful info: "Told us both that she needs time to heal herself and that she might not have it in her to be a W right now." You dismiss it, essentially, as him being on her side. WRONG. This guy is telling you what you won't listen from your W. Time and space means TIME AND SPACE. It doesn't mean "hey, let's go to a marriage seminar!". Revoke that invite and go on your GAL. More than likely her "i'll think about it" was more about you not going away for the weekend and leaving her alone with the kids. She already expressed disapproval of being home alone with the kids (with the whole community event thing).
3) Snooping. Step back from your sitch and ask yourself. Is snooping and then "monitoring what you found" really giving her time and space? Come on Wanted, you know this was wrong. Not because you invaded he privacy or any of that, but because it is BAD FOR YOU! Snooping never improves your sitch, and can only causes you to have feelings of "wanting to burn everything to the ground". Step back from this and breathe....... You obviously expected to find something otherwise you wouldn't have snooped. Trust me, on this, I was a serial snooper! Read my sitch. Snooping and finding something will always set you back. All you did was stoke your jealousy (lack of detachment) and my guess is, as with most of us, you are upset with OM. Even though he isn't your problem......your W is. And you are already supposed to be giving her time and space. Wanted, you took the MBR because of her behavior. That was your boundary. Leave her to deal with her own demons for now. If and when she decides to R, and you are still open to it, then you can deal with her contact with OM or anyone else.
4) This is contradictory. See #2 above. In fact, why would you even consider Retrouvaille when she is actively stepping outside of the MR?
5) Here is the crux of the problem. Your feelings. I feel it is inappropriate. I feel it is disrespectful. Why? She has already fired you as her H. For all intents and purposes you are no longer MR. She is sleeping in the basement as a roommate. What exactly is she disrespecting and being inappropriate about. She hasn't misled you. She isn't saying she wants to R yet still talking to OM. You are reacting here instead of responding. You are feeling instead of thinking. You are not DBing!!!!!
Wanted, you fell off of the DB horse. Get back up on it. Let her go to get her back. GAL. 180. And work on detachment!!! You have way to tight a grip on that rope.
W,
It is frustrating to read your posts sometimes.
You do not want to go to Retrouvaille with her RIGHT NOW! It would be a complete waste of time and money. It is for people who are actively working on their marriage. You are not because she has checked out!
You busted her again with with another OM who happens to be your friend. WTF?
Why, why, why do you feel you deserve to be treated this way?
Your W completely understands what she is doing and she doesn't care because she doesn't respect you and she doesn't respect you mainly because you don't respect yourself.
Sandi has stated it a million times on this board that a woman can not love a man she doesn't respect.
How can you get your respect back? Let her go, walk away and never look back until she comes to you and EARNS another chance with you.
Let me explain something, the suggestion of Retrouvaille happened before finding out about this most recent stuff. I'm honestly at a point where I'm ready to let her go and walk away. I want to know HOW? Tell her tonight that I know she's talking to former best friend and that I'm done and she needs to move out? She's been contemplating moving out for a couple weeks now so it isn't like I'm kicking her out.
NO NO NO!!!
Just let it go. Let her live in the basement. Let her figure her stuff out. You are looking for a magic bullet. There isn't one. You can control only yourself. Just leave her to her own devices, and concentrate on YOU and the kids.
We all know it´s hard W1. But you need to do that 180... To get her respect back you need to let her go. No waiting for her, no expectations.
How can you get your respect back? Let her go, walk away and never look back until she comes to you and EARNS another chance with you.
You must do what LH says. Put your pants and stand for yourself. You can do that man. Be the role model for your kids, show them how to confront adversity. They will thank you in the future.
Respect man. Be proud of who you are. Go.
Be proud of who you are. Go.
So good! Wanted1, one thing I can honestly say: I never was proud of who I was after I snooped.
I'm honestly confused......Respect, to me, means I need to show her that I know what she's up to and I disapprove of it. This limbo stage we are in was suppose to let her figure out what she wants. How the hell is that going to happen when she's continuing to contact OM? Contact with one stopped (supposedly) and now there is contact with the other!
How is it respecting myself to just let that slide by and dismiss it? That seems weak but then again, a lot of this stuff is counterintuitive to what I would normally think is the right approach so if someone can explain it to me, I'd appreciate it.
I honestly don't want to attend Retrouvaille now with what I've found. It won't turn her around when she's still secretly chatting with OM.
I don't feel bad about snooping and honestly what I've found hasn't send me into a tizzy like it has in the past. I'm pretty neutral to it. It is what it is and to be honest, it doesn't surprise me in the least. I'm not going to say anything to OM W right now (we 'were' all friends) but I think down the road I will. If it were me, I'd want to know the truth. Which I guess is why I snooped. I like to know what I'm dealing with exactly. I want the truth and the facts. Even if it's idle chit-chat, it is still wrong considering their past history.
So, do I just send her a text and say, disregard my invitation for Retrouvaille. If she asks why, what do I say?
No. Just start planning your GAL weekend. If it comes up then you say you decided against it.
Also, respect is exactly what other have said: She will respect you when she sees that no matter what she says or does, you are happy, fulfilled, pleased and moving forward. Essentially detached.
Also you need to be honest with yourself Wanted1: "I don't feel bad about snooping and honestly what I've found hasn't send me into a tizzy like it has in the past. I'm pretty neutral to it." That doesn't jive with "I am ready to burn everything to the ground."
Step back from your sitch and try to view it objectively as if it were a friend's sitch.
You are going to hear it again...stop snooping...you already know it's going on and she will lie lie lie about it. And it will make you angry so don't say it doesn't. We've been there. It took me 4 or 5 months to stop looking but eventually got it through my head that I don't care what you are doing, I am going to get off my ars and start living my life so I am happy.
It wasn't until I started making myself a better person and being happy again that now I see my WW pushing herself back into my life.
W,
SHE WANTS OUT OF THE MARRIAGE. SHE KNOWS WHAT SHE WANTS, SHE WANTS OUT OF THE MARRIAGE.
Maybe this is the hang up with you. That you actually thought she was trying to figure out what she wants.
Have you done any research on boundaries? Consequences for breaking boundaries are not you saying "I disapprove" to get your respect back.
Consequences for getting your respect back would be telling her to pack her $hit and get out of the house and you'll be hearing from my lawyer and I should have done it the first time you cheated on me.
Don't even bring up Retroville because I guarantee you she was never considering it and will never bring it up. You only want to bring it up to try to get a reaction out of her.
Don't even bring up Retroville because I guarantee you she was never considering it and will never bring it up. You only want to bring it up to try to get a reaction out of her.
THIS * INFINITY
Can´t really add anything else to what the guys had posted W1. You control only yourself and you take action from there.
We are all team Wanted1, so we are shooting at your head...
No. Just start planning your GAL weekend. If it comes up then you say you decided against it.
Also, respect is exactly what other have said: She will respect you when she sees that no matter what she says or does, you are happy, fulfilled, pleased and moving forward. Essentially detached.
Also you need to be honest with yourself Wanted1: "I don't feel bad about snooping and honestly what I've found hasn't send me into a tizzy like it has in the past. I'm pretty neutral to it." That doesn't jive with "I am ready to burn everything to the ground."
Step back from your sitch and try to view it objectively as if it were a friend's sitch.
I know that doesn't necessarily jive, per se, with being neutral to it. I guess what I meant was, I'm very, very close to the point where I just tell her I'm done, I'm out, I don't need a "decision" from you anymore. This might be the final "straw" which I need to push me into such a decision. I'm treating this latest incident much differently than in the past. I would have already confronted her with what I found like I have in the past. Now, I'm almost numb to it. It hurts, obviously, but this whole mess has hurt. This time it isn't as intense of a hurt I guess.
In justifying my decision to be done, I'd tell her that I know and also let OM W know because, again, if it were me, I'd want to know if I was in her position. Not sure if that constitutes "burning everything to the ground." Maybe that statement was too harsh in depicting what I would do. If she has no remorse and guilt (other than saying she feels intense guilt -- believe nothing what they say) about destroying our M and my kids' family life, maybe the thought of her actions potentially causing turmoil in another family's situation will get her to stop and think how destructive her actions are. IMO, she still doesn't understand how grave her actions are.
W,
SHE WANTS OUT OF THE MARRIAGE. SHE KNOWS WHAT SHE WANTS, SHE WANTS OUT OF THE MARRIAGE.
Consequences for getting your respect back would be telling her to pack her $hit and get out of the house and you'll be hearing from my lawyer and I should have done it the first time you cheated on me.
The first part is pretty obvious. I just don't understand what she is waiting for.....other than both her IC and the Bishop last Friday telling her she isn't in a position, emotionally, to make major decisions. She is too fragile.
As for the second part, I'm getting very, very close to being at that point. I honestly am. Maybe I'll just sit on it until after this weekend and think everything over a little more. If I'm still in the same frame of mind a week from now, I'll give her the boot.
I know the chances of this happening are about the same as winning the lottery, but what if she does say, "OK, let's go to Retrouvaille?" How do I respond then? I just want to be prepared for either scenario, even if one scenario is very far fetched. EDIT: I see Steve pretty much answered this question in a previous post above. I'll just say, No, I've decided against it at this time.
Tell her nothing W1. Show her. And after her first blink be near Saturn, sending postcards.
W,
You are still operating under what is called the "illusion of action" and that you have to do something to get a reaction out of her.
She doesn't care who she hurts that is so obvious.
If you need to do something. DO NOTHING, which is something. Start planning a life for you and the kids and start to formulate in your mind what that life might look like.
Again, you are still waiting for the big decision which has already been determined by her months if not years ago.
Like Neff said, put on your big boys pants move forward in your life, take care of your kids and the rest will take care of itself. Let her file, let her do the heavy lifting.
Like Neff said, put on your big boys pants move forward in your life, take care of your kids and the rest will take care of itself. Let her file, let her do the heavy lifting.
I agree with this. Unless you can answer one question yes.
"Do you want a divorce?"
When you get to the point where you can answer that "yes" then you are ready to file yourself. Until you can answer that yes, then do as LH says....make her do the work.
W,
You are still operating under what is called the "illusion of action" and that you have to do something to get a reaction out of her.
She doesn't care who she hurts that is so obvious.
If you need to do something. DO NOTHING, which is something. Start planning a life for you and the kids and start to formulate in your mind what that life might look like.
Again, you are still waiting for the big decision which has already been determined by her months if not years ago.
Like Neff said, put on your big boys pants move forward in your life, take care of your kids and the rest will take care of itself. Let her file, let her do the heavy lifting.
Well I've sort of already done that. Yesterday I booked a vacation for just myself and the kids in January. Wanted to do this instead of going nuts with Xmas gifts with stuff they don't need. Looking forward to that trip and the kids are super excited as well. We are going with a couple other families, so it should be an awesome time. Will be pretty awkward explaining to the rest of them why W isn't along, if nothing happens in the meantime that will make our situation public, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
W,
You are still operating under what is called the "illusion of action" and that you have to do something to get a reaction out of her.
She doesn't care who she hurts that is so obvious.
If you need to do something. DO NOTHING, which is something. Start planning a life for you and the kids and start to formulate in your mind what that life might look like.
Again, you are still waiting for the big decision which has already been determined by her months if not years ago.
Like Neff said, put on your big boys pants move forward in your life, take care of your kids and the rest will take care of itself. Let her file, let her do the heavy lifting.
Well I've sort of already done that. Yesterday I booked a vacation for just myself and the kids in January. Wanted to do this instead of going nuts with Xmas gifts with stuff they don't need. Looking forward to that trip and the kids are super excited as well. We are going with a couple other families, so it should be an awesome time. Will be pretty awkward explaining to the rest of them why W isn't along, if nothing happens in the meantime that will make our situation public, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
Please tell me you've said nothing to her about this trip yet.
Well I've sort of already done that. Yesterday I booked a vacation for just myself and the kids in January. Wanted to do this instead of going nuts with Xmas gifts with stuff they don't need. Looking forward to that trip and the kids are super excited as well. We are going with a couple other families, so it should be an awesome time. Will be pretty awkward explaining to the rest of them why W isn't along, if nothing happens in the meantime that will make our situation public, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
Well that´s not close to Saturn but it helps anyway. Send postcards!
Will be pretty awkward explaining to the rest of them why W isn't along, if nothing happens in the meantime that will make our situation public, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
Wanted, I was worried about this one myself before it became public. Big waste of energy. Everyone was so supportive and quite frankly it is so common that no one even bats an eye.
To be honest with you, many of my friends are jealous of me now because I am dating beautiful woman and they are stuck in dead marriages.
Funny how life turns out.
Like Neff said, put on your big boys pants move forward in your life, take care of your kids and the rest will take care of itself. Let her file, let her do the heavy lifting.
I agree with this. Unless you can answer one question yes.
"Do you want a divorce?"
When you get to the point where you can answer that "yes" then you are ready to file yourself. Until you can answer that yes, then do as LH says....make her do the work.
I still have the same beliefs and core values that D is not something I am going to pursue, personally. My faith and my core values are strongly against D. That's a big part of my reason for not wanting one. Another part is that I don't like giving up on something without trying to work on it and at least try to correct it. My failings (e.g. communication, sort of going into cruise control with our M, not nurturing the M and making our M a priority, essentially letting it take a back seat to kids, work, etc.) are things that are correctable. Especially now that I own and accept my failings and am 100% willing to work to become a better H and person in general. There is a very big difference between knowing what's wrong and wanting to fix things and just floating through life and M without realizing there are fundamental problems. That's where there is a major hangup. W says she doesn't agree with me that we haven't tried to work on our M in the past. While I have validated her and acknowledge that maybe she tried, individually, that isn't really the same. (And I question how much she's really tried when there has been 3 As) When I'm not cognizant of her unhappiness and she doesn't express to me that we have work to do, how can I make necessary changes? I feel like the one obvious thing she should have tried, she didn't, which was communicate the unhappiness or doubts. It would take two to work on and make our M better because we both have necessary changes that need to take place. I can't change for the better if I don't know that I need to or should be.
Now, if she wants a D, I'm resigned to the fact that there is nothing I can do about it. I've accepted that. It's no longer such an intimidating thought or fear for me. Would it be painful and hurt like hell? Absolutely. But I'm also comfortable with the fact that I've done and tried everything I could possibly do to try to save our M. Most of it probably from the wrong approach, according to DB techniques, but nevertheless, I'm not sure what else I can do other than 'let her go.' And when the day comes that she tells me point blank, 'I'm out,' I won't be begging or pleading for her to reconsider. I'm not that person anymore.
It helps me to approach my situation that this version of my W is an enemy to me and my family. The mindset my W has now has destroyed the woman I married, she wants to destroy me and most of all, wants to destroy any sense of family my kids have ever had. If she continues to use my actions (outburst a couple weeks ago where I threw something) or what I've said since BD as justification for her decision, I'm going to simple tell her that is a poor way of making a decision. Because ever since BD, I've gone into protection mode. I've done and said things out of my sense and instinct to protect what I have and protecting our kids from an enemy trying to destroy their livelihoods. When you think about it, that is the honest to God truth. This version of my W is an enemy to my entire family and my instincts to protect those I love so dearly took over. Right or wrong, that's what happened.
W,
You are still operating under what is called the "illusion of action" and that you have to do something to get a reaction out of her.
She doesn't care who she hurts that is so obvious.
If you need to do something. DO NOTHING, which is something. Start planning a life for you and the kids and start to formulate in your mind what that life might look like.
Again, you are still waiting for the big decision which has already been determined by her months if not years ago.
Like Neff said, put on your big boys pants move forward in your life, take care of your kids and the rest will take care of itself. Let her file, let her do the heavy lifting.
Well I've sort of already done that. Yesterday I booked a vacation for just myself and the kids in January. Wanted to do this instead of going nuts with Xmas gifts with stuff they don't need. Looking forward to that trip and the kids are super excited as well. We are going with a couple other families, so it should be an awesome time. Will be pretty awkward explaining to the rest of them why W isn't along, if nothing happens in the meantime that will make our situation public, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
Please tell me you've said nothing to her about this trip yet.
I asked the kids whether they wanted Xmas presents or to go on a vacation with friends. They told her as soon as she got home last week.
I then told her after her little conversation with me on Sunday about needing to be kept in the loop somewhat since we have kids together that I will be booking the vacation tomorrow (yesterday). That's all that has been said.
Will be pretty awkward explaining to the rest of them why W isn't along, if nothing happens in the meantime that will make our situation public, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
Wanted, I was worried about this one myself before it became public. Big waste of energy. Everyone was so supportive and quite frankly it is so common that no one even bats an eye.
To be honest with you, many of my friends are jealous of me now because I am dating beautiful woman and they are stuck in dead marriages.
Funny how life turns out.
I think it helps me a little bit for the fact that I think more people know about her infidelities in our town that her or I knew about. The first one was with one of my best friends here in our hometown. I think people pretty much deduced what happened when we were no longer hanging out. Plus, I think best friend's W ran her mouth a bit and tried to bad mouth my W in an attempt to justify her H's actions. I got a sense that she was telling everyone what an evil temptress my W was.
In the end, the truth will probably eventually come out. Maybe not everything but bits and pieces and I guess I don't think anyone would blame me for D in light of even some of the facts.
I've always had an issue worrying about what everyone else thinks about a lot of things in life. That is one of my own, personal, 180s that I'm trying to make. No one should care what anyone else thinks.
Listen W1, W is not an enemy. Hey man, you love W and is a right feeling to have. It hurts to see somebody that you trusted and thought you knew converted into a selfish queen of the universe. Well, there it is: selfishness embedded into a net MLC period. Feel sad for W W1, she is lost inside.
There´s no need to tell her nothing. C´mon man, she knows everything but nothing is going to stop her to get what she wants except herself. But she must be willing to look inside. When? Who knows...
Keep working on yourself, be the lighthouse for the kids. They need you there, shining.
W,
I know we're being hard on you but we are trying to get you to do damage control.
I believe you truly love and want to protect your kids so that is another reason to let her go. That way they don't have to see the fighting, her sleeping in the basement etc.
Give her an amicable divorce. Sell it like I did. You're still a family but you are living in different houses.
Let your W deal with her $hit (and she has a lot of it) and who knows what happens down the road.
You are still very young.
My god... and the plot thickens.
Meddling family members --- last Sunday when I asked W about Retrouvaille I also asked my parents if they would be able to watch the kids if we went. Figured I wanted that base covered if W miraculously agreed to go.
Just got a text from W asking what all I said to my mom about the program? She said my mom text her saying that she thinks it would be a good opportunity and then went on to say that she (W) was caught off guard.
I responded and told her I just asked her if she could watch the kids if we ended up going which she agreed to do.
Should I know send her another message stating that I don't think I'm interested anymore and that I'll just make plans to GAL like I was planning originally?
Need some advice quick!
No to what? No to going? I presume that's what you mean, so tell her I'm not interested anymore so don't worry about it?
Do not bring it up again. If she asks "are we going?" then you tell her "no I changed my mind" and leave it at that.
I can tell you are dying to call her out on texting your buddy.
Do not bring it up again. If she asks "are we going?" then you tell her "no I changed my mind" and leave it at that.
I can tell you are dying to call her out on texting your buddy.
I will not call her out. Trust me. She replied back to my text in the meantime and said that my mom mentioned she could watch the kids and my W just replied thank you. She then said "I have a few thoughts on it but we can talk tonight if you want."
I feel like I need to respond with something --- I thinking, "No, that's OK. I've thought more about it and I don't think I want to go."
Wanted, DBing is simple. GAL. 180. Detach. Do not initiate discussions, but listen and validate when she does.
Those that struggle the most are those that do not stick to the script. You want to tell her so badly that Retrovaille is now out. Don't tell her. Show her. How? BY NEVER MENTIONING IT AGAIN. If she brings it up, "I made other plans for that weekend." When she starts protesting, listen and validate.
The other thing that is common among those that struggle the most....they TALK too much. Whether verbally or via text/message. Say as few words as possible. Be succinct. When she says or sends something that is not a question DO NOT RESPOND!! If she asks a direct question you answer in as few words as possible. Yes or no questions get yes or no answers.
I hope LH is wrong. But I detect he is not. You want to tell her retrovaille is out so that when she asks why you can lay down the hammer on the texting. Before you do that, what will it gain you? Will it get you closer to R or further away?
Wanted, I think you actually have a good chance of turning all this around....but you need to stick to the script and stop talking so much.
Do not bring it up again. If she asks "are we going?" then you tell her "no I changed my mind" and leave it at that.
I can tell you are dying to call her out on texting your buddy.
I will not call her out. Trust me. She replied back to my text in the meantime and said that my mom mentioned she could watch the kids and my W just replied thank you. She then said "I have a few thoughts on it but we can talk tonight if you want."
I feel like I need to respond with something --- I thinking, "No, that's OK. I've thought more about it and I don't think I want to go."
Nope. no need to respond. You can short-circuit the conversation tonight with "I changed my mind."
Do not bring it up again. If she asks "are we going?" then you tell her "no I changed my mind" and leave it at that.
I can tell you are dying to call her out on texting your buddy.
I will not call her out. Trust me. She replied back to my text in the meantime and said that my mom mentioned she could watch the kids and my W just replied thank you. She then said "I have a few thoughts on it but we can talk tonight if you want."
I feel like I need to respond with something --- I thinking, "No, that's OK. I've thought more about it and I don't think I want to go."
Nope. no need to respond. You can short-circuit the conversation tonight with "I changed my mind."
Yes, I definitely talk to much. I'm a lawyer, so talking is instinctual and I need to 180 on that. I know I need to and its hard to implement but I'm trying my best.
I've thought about what you said in your previous post about whether or not bringing it up will bring me closer to R or not. There is nothing to gain by bringing it up other than to prove "Gotcha" so I'm not going to. That would just add fuel to the blaze that I'm engulfed in.
So, just leave the text message hanging then? And if she comes to talk to me about it tonight, listen, validate and then state that I changed my mind? That's another 180 that I suppose I could implement -- I've ALWAYS made it a point to respond to phone calls, text messages, emails, etc. in a VERY timely manner. Always. No matter who it is. If I don't respond at all it will definitely pique her interest I would think because it would be completely out of the norm for me. I've always deemed it considerate to respond immediately to any of the above because I like when the same is afforded to me. Like I said, no response would be a complete 180 from my behavior in the past. Not just with W but with anyone at work, friends, etc.
Do not bring it up again. If she asks "are we going?" then you tell her "no I changed my mind" and leave it at that.
I can tell you are dying to call her out on texting your buddy.
I will not call her out. Trust me. She replied back to my text in the meantime and said that my mom mentioned she could watch the kids and my W just replied thank you. She then said "I have a few thoughts on it but we can talk tonight if you want."
I feel like I need to respond with something --- I thinking, "No, that's OK. I've thought more about it and I don't think I want to go."
Nope. no need to respond. You can short-circuit the conversation tonight with "I changed my mind."
Yes, I definitely talk to much. I'm a lawyer, so talking is instinctual and I need to 180 on that. I know I need to and its hard to implement but I'm trying my best.
I've thought about what you said in your previous post about whether or not bringing it up will bring me closer to R or not. There is nothing to gain by bringing it up other than to prove "Gotcha" so I'm not going to. That would just add fuel to the blaze that I'm engulfed in.
So, just leave the text message hanging then? And if she comes to talk to me about it tonight, listen, validate and then state that I changed my mind? That's another 180 that I suppose I could implement -- I've ALWAYS made it a point to respond to phone calls, text messages, emails, etc. in a VERY timely manner. Always. No matter who it is. If I don't respond at all it will definitely pique her interest I would think because it would be completely out of the norm for me. I've always deemed it considerate to respond immediately to any of the above because I like when the same is afforded to me. Like I said, no response would be a complete 180 from my behavior in the past. Not just with W but with anyone at work, friends, etc.
Separate how you should behave in business dealings with how you should behave with your WW.
When she texts something informational....no need to ever respond. When she texts a question.....take your time, no need to answer right away. Then answer in as few word as possible. You are a lawyer so think about how you would want a witness to answer your questions. Yes or no questions get yes or no answers.
By all means leave her text hanging.
That's another 180 that I suppose I could implement -- I've ALWAYS made it a point to respond to phone calls, text messages, emails, etc. in a VERY timely manner. Always. No matter who it is. If I don't respond at all it will definitely pique her interest I would think because it would be completely out of the norm for me.
W,
I get the feeling that everything you do in regards to your sitch is to get a reaction from her. Why do you feel the need to pique her interest?
Is it:
W: Whats wrong you didn't respond to my text?
Y: You know what's wrong.
W: No I don't what's wrong?
Y: You know you're texted my buddy (gotcha)
You 180 bad behaviors you have to improve yourself for you. Responding to people in a timely manner is not a bad behavior.
That's another 180 that I suppose I could implement -- I've ALWAYS made it a point to respond to phone calls, text messages, emails, etc. in a VERY timely manner. Always. No matter who it is. If I don't respond at all it will definitely pique her interest I would think because it would be completely out of the norm for me.
W,
I get the feeling that everything you do in regards to your sitch is to get a reaction from her. Why do you feel the need to pique her interest?
Is it:
W: Whats wrong you didn't respond to my text?
Y: You know what's wrong.
W: No I don't what's wrong?
Y: You know you're texted my buddy (gotcha)
You 180 bad behaviors you have to improve yourself for you. Responding to people in a timely manner is not a bad behavior.
LH,
I know based on the history in my threads that that is a great assumption to make. And, in the past, you would be right. But I'm telling you, I'm at a different stage right now. I have NO intentions of bringing it up to her right now. None. I did earlier but like Steve mentioned, what do I gain by bringing it up? Well, I'd gain the "gotcha! I caught you lying and deceiving again!" and then afterwards I would bare the brunt of accusatory blame for invading privacy and snooping. Which would only piss me off and push her further away.
Now, I preface what I'm going to ask advice on next with trying to remind you and everyone else that I do NOT want to bring up the texts with former best friend. That is why I'm asking how to proceed with this......
So, I'm not going to respond to the text inquiring from W "if I want to talk about her thoughts on Retrovaille tonight." I'm going to go out on a limb and assume she is going to come to me after we get the kids to bed and ask if I want to talk about them. I KNOW that short circuiting that conversation with me just simply saying, "No, not really. I've changed my mind about Retrouvaille," would be the response most of you would suggest I do.
But, I want to run this by you all and see what you think.
First, I am reminded of the phrase 'leave no stone unturned.' What I mean by that is, would there be any value in listening and validating whatever these thoughts are that she wants to share? What if, by some grace of God, she does want to start dipping her toe in the pool that is R, or just simply wants to see if Retrouvaille would make a difference in our communication issues? Yes, I agree that that is probably the exact opposite of what these thoughts she speaks of are. But, remember, leave no stone unturned. Would it hurt at all if all I did was listen and validate those thoughts whether they be negative or positive?
Second, and maybe more importantly, I'm dealing with a WW that either twists anything I say into something with negative connotations and/or picks up on any sort of negative she can garner out of anything I say or do. So, a little background, my GAL this weekend was going to see a sporting event that I am incredibly passionate about. In the past, I would never miss a chance to watch my teams play. The sporting event I am going to be attending is a team that I have lived and died for. With that being the case, I can't help but be a little nervous about her insinuating that my sudden 180 on not wanting to attend Retrouvaille will be because I place this sporting event as my top priority over going to Retrouvaille. Even though, when I asked her about Retrouvaille, I said, "if we went, that means I would miss the game but my top priority is family and I'd gladly miss it if you were interested in attending." Like I said, she tries to glean anything negative from anything I say or do, so if me being selfish and wanting to go to the game instead of attend Retrouvaille with her fits her narrative, she will take it and run!
With all of that, does it makes sense to explain something in regards to my 180 about not attending Retrouvaille? Again, I do NOT want to bring up the texting I found. And I understand and appreciate 'talking too much.' It's definitely hurt me numerous times throughout this whole debacle. I want to try to prepare for any scenario that might pop up and handle it better than I have in the past.
So I need advice on:
1) Would it be wrong to listen to what she says and validate? OR
2) Short circuit the conversation and tell her I've changed my mind on it (and include this caveat) because I don't think it's something that would be beneficial to us based on where we are at right now? OR
3) Short circuit the conversation and just state "I'm not interested in discussing it because I've changed my mind." and leave it at that and let her come to any negative conclusion that helps further "justify" what she wants?
Going back to your post a couple of pages back, prepare for some 2x4's:
Meeting with Bishop didn't really accomplish much.
Predictable. It's too soon for this. Right now she's 100% done. Later, who knows. But now is not the time for this.
Something she said in the meeting though has really bothered me. She made mention of "fearing" what I would do to her, the kids and the house and used a conversation we had a couple weeks ago as justification for those fears. During that conversation, she was frustrating me to no end with the constant focus on negatives and twisting my words to fit her narrative. I was irritated as hell and grabbed a couple tiny rubber disks that were on the counter about the size of a silver dollar and threw them down the hallway, which was in the exact opposite direction of her. I'll repeat, they were thrown in the complete opposite direction of where she was standing.
You scared her. You don't have to throw something directly at her to scare her, any kind of violent act in her presence is enough to put fear into her. I understand you say you would never strike her, but she doesn't know what you are capable of. You go on to make light of this situation explaining over and over that you would never hurt her. But words mean nothing to her right now, only actions. It's in DR, it's in Sandi's rules, and we say it over and over again. ACTIONS not WORDS. What did your ACTIONS say to her? So do a 180 on that ASAP.
This mindset tells me one of two things: 1) She is using it as a manipulation tactic to further justify her reasons for wanting to leave or 2) if she truly does fear harm from me, that speaks volumes to just how broken and fragile she is right now.
You really need to own what you did and quit trying to blame her for it, because that is EXACTLY what abusive people do. I am not saying you're abusive, but your lack of remorse over what you did is very concerning.
Once they were home and we got the kids to bed, I left to go GAL.
I don't know the dynamics of your home life but it sounds like S3 is on the same floor as you and W is in the basement. Presumably if S3 needs something he goes to the closest parent (you). So just leaving without telling your W is not a good idea. What is S3 fell down the stairs trying to find his mom? GAL doesn't mean "disappear whenever you want". Be responsible about GAL'ing. When small kids are involved then tell your W when you're planning to leave. You don't have to tell her where you are going, but do coordinate with her if you are going to leave her to take care of the kids.
She said that I can shut her out and she understands it but she would appreciate it, since we are parents together, to let her know when I'm leaving. She then claimed that S3 was up crying and wandering around upstairs while I was gone. She sleeps in the basement. She said if she would have known I was gone, she would have slept on the couch upstairs. Some of this is sort of BS because she would have gotten a notification on her phone from the security camera app showing me leaving.
It's not BS, it's a perfectly reasonable request. Don't be rude/ cold/ indifferent about your GAL. If your goal is to save the M then you've got to LOVINGLY detach. Don't depend on a security camera to inform her. That's not being mature and responsible.
I found out that there is a Retrouvaille program in the same city for this weekend. I decided that I was going to ask one last time and see if she would be interested in attending.
As Steve and others told you, this is a bad idea. She's not in the right place. When you sign up they will call both parties and ask them if they are willing to give reconciliation a try. Both spouses must be willing or you will not be allowed in. I doubt your W would get past that first question.
In the past, I would be confronting her about it as we speak. But, I'm feeling now like I should just sit on this. Monitor it a little more and see just how intense it gets, etc. I'm still waiting for the answer to Retrouvaille.
An A is a deal-killer for Retrou. They will call each of you separately and state categorically that if there's an OP involved then you can't go.
I wondering if when she tells me she's still not comfortable in going if I should just response with something like, "Ok, that's fine. I'm having second thoughts on wanting to do it at this juncture anyway, so that's probably for the best," and let her stew about why I would say that?
No just say you understand and will not broach the subject with her again.
Do I let her know that I know they are communicating again?
It depends. Can you do it calmly without yelling or throwing things? Are you prepared for things between you to be well and truly over? Because that may very well be the result. I would suggest just leaving it alone and detaching. LH is completely right about the "illusion of action" you're trapped in. You feel like you have to do SOMETHING whether it's make her go to retrou, or make her go to counseling, or throw your hands in the air and say it's over, or file for D yourself. But you don't. You don't have to do ANYTHING. In fact you SHOULDN'T do anything other than pull back and give her time and space. You've lost control and you are desperate to get it back. Hey, we've all been there (or are there). But you have to let go and let it be until you can center yourself again. It takes time, use the time wisely.
1) No that would not be wrong.
2) Instead of short circuiting, after listening and validating. "I’ve decided against going to the Retrouovaille. I feel that it would just be going through the motions at this point. I’m going to start individual counseling on my own. A lot has happened and I need help processing it so I can heal and move forward." (Oh, and then start going to IC!)
3) Don't do #3.
I've evolved since I suggested short-circuiting. Tonight is a chance for you to be the listener and validater that you hven't been before. Once she said her peace, and you validated, then you can say the above line.
W,
Sure if she comes to you and wants to discuss it then sure listen and validate. I don't even have a problem of you going at the thought that it will help you guys communicate better. My main concern is that you will have expectations of you going to Retro that means she wants to recon.
Who gives a $hit what she thinks about you going to see the team you are passionate about.
When you say leave "no stone unturned" I hear "illusion of action" I need to try something else to convince her to work on the marriage. How about the stone that says let her go, stop thinking there is something you can do to stop it, GAL by going to your game, detach by not giving a $hit about how she feels about you going to the game.
So, just leave the text message hanging then? And if she comes to talk to me about it tonight, listen, validate and then state that I changed my mind?
I'm going to disagree with the others here, I do not think you should tell her you changed your mind. One of the reasons a lot of us end up here is our wives think we are controlling. We make everything in the M about ourselves and do not consider their needs. So think about this, you've asked her numerous times to go to Retrou and she's refused. Then you ask her again and she accepts. But then you tell her you changed your mind. What kind of message does that send to her? That no matter what her choice is you disagree with it. Now I'm not talking about your INTENT here, I'm talking about her PERCEPTION. And as we know, with a WAS perception is everything. The goal of DB'ing is to change her perception of you. If she thought you were controlling and manipulative and selfish then you have to be the opposite of those things. You have to let HER make the choices that guide her destiny and that of your M. So if she approaches you about Retrou then listen and validate. If she wants to go then go. If she doesn't then don't. Regardless, tell her you respect her decision and will support her in it.
I went to Retrou when my ex was already out the door. It was her idea, but unfortunately it was too soon after BD to make a difference. Despite that, it was an amazing, touching experience that I cherish, and I learned a ton about communication. A lot of the thoughts I share here on these forums on validation and communication come from my time in Retrou. So even if it doesn't save your M, you should by all means go if the opportunity presents itself.
AS,
With regard to your post with the 2x4s. You make complete sense in everything you've stated. I do feel remorse about throwing the things down the hallway and I expressed that to her individually in one of your conversations and again in front of the Bishop during our meeting. Both times I've said that I was incredibly frustrated and handled it in a manner in which I shouldn't have and that I regret it.
You made great points about GAL and after she had the talk with me I told her I would be more forth coming to her about when I'm going to be leaving, etc. Of course the ONE night I'm not there S3 wakes up.... I have the worst luck imaginable I'm telling you!
Steve, LH and AS,
Thank you all for your input. I truly appreciate it and they are good words of wisdom. I'm glad I came here today before possibly doing something to make matters worse. I will just see how it goes tonight, I guess, and let her express her thoughts on it and listen and validate as best I can.
Steve, I am already in IC. Have been since the day after BD in September.
LH, I don't really care what she thinks about me going to the game. I was more concerned with her perception of me doing a 180 and telling her I don't want to go now because of the negative connotation she would undoubtably place as the game being my top priority over Retrovaille, which we all know isn't the case. It's never "the case" in just about everything I say and do but she sure as hell tries to make it "the case!"
AS, you make a great another point about controlling and manipulating. Those are definitely things she has said I do. She has even admitted that I probably do them without even consciously knowing I am, which is the truth. We have had a weird dynamic. Due to to the abuse and trauma as a child, she has discovered that her mindset has been to always do and go along with whatever I say. Basically, be subservient to the man. One could argue that's how these As happen as well. When the man wants something, she gives in. No excuse for her, still, but I emphasize with how it's possible given what she's been through. My IC has told me quite a few times that this mindset can absolutely be a cause of sexual abuse and it does make sense when you think about it. When she doesn't speak up and voice an opinion otherwise, I naturally assume she is on board with whatever it is. I can talk til I'm blue in the face and try to explain to her that I can't be blamed for 100% of the controlling and manipulation she feels since she sort of perpetrates it, but I know not to bring that up. She needs to discover that on her own. I think this is where a lot of the resentment comes from.
Just to back up what AS said as if it wasn't clear enough. Before I discovered DB, I did all of the things you're thinking about doing. Not once did I throw anything in her direction. I did accidentally knock something over that almost hit her.
Net result: I am on my way to D, reconciliation feels like it's entirely out of the question for all eternity, and I will forever live with the regret that I caused such unforgivable harm to a person I claimed to love. Believe me, I expressed remorse REPEATEDLY for my actions that night. 4-1/2 months later, on BD2 when she told me during MC that she was "done," I was curled in the fetal position on the couch and MC asked W, "What are you thinking/feeling right now as you look at him?" W's response: "I'm afraid he's going to hit me." And on that note, she had spent most of the previous month saying things like, "I don't feel safe around you, I can't relax in your presence."
After you've said it or done it, you can never take it back.
I would just add that when you look up one day and realize you are doing nothing to save your marriage and you are doing everything for yourself to improve yourself that is when you are dbing properly. It just hit me one day out of the blue like 9 months ago and it was Bluwave that drove it home for me. You can't talk your way out of any of it. Hit the gym, eat right, buy new clothes, don't react emotionally to anything your W says. Just go about the business of taking care of you.
I promise you it will never make sense and you have to accept the fact that you will never know all the answers or completely understand what happened.
Further to what J9 said, I know it's hard but try and make the most of the situation, enjoy the freedom that the bachelor life provides. The situation [censored] but there are benefits as well you just have to look for them, want to go fishing, there is nobody to stop you, want to play poker with the guys, there is nobody to stop you, you are basically free to do as you please. Bachelor life is not all that bad and scary, get out there and make the most of it, just keep it healthy.
J9 and Ryan,
I appreciate your input and support. The thought of those things sounded so scary from the outset. Not gonna lie, I was definitely codependent. Didn't know how I could care for 3 little kids by myself, keep the house up, cook, clean and for me, do all of the work at my job since W and I worked together ever since we got out of law school. She has a new job now, so I've gotten a taste of what all of that entails and I think I'm handling it pretty amazingly. Not nearly as scary as I thought it would be. Some of that is probably the fact that I HAVE to do those things and some of it just isn't as hard as I imagined.
That said, the thought of D still freaks me out a little bit, but I don't fear it or am as intimated by it as I was initially. I know now that I'll be fine if that is indeed the path that's chosen for me. I suppose this separation period helps in that respect since I'm being 'eased' into it, so to speak.
Being able to do what I want, when I want will be a nice benefit. That and some financial savings that I'll be afforded in my situation if we end up calling it quits won't be so bad as well.
I'm a little concerned with income tax and having to file single vs. jointly though....I believe the tax brackets are much higher for filing as a single and I won't be losing much income since we both ran our business together. The income stays the same more or less..... I probably shouldn't dwell on stuff like this until I'm actually faced with it. No use worrying about it until I have to deal with it. I told my W I'm absolutely opposed to D awhile back, so if she wants it, she needs to do the work and file. Nothing has been filed yet.
Wanted,
Don't get me wrong, I still am no where near detached and probably won't be for a long time, D scares the hell out of me and it is the last thing I want. But I find focusing on some of the positives helps me through the day. I get the income tax concerns but at the end of the day so what.
If you haven't yet read it, go get a copy of "The subtle art of not giving a F@$*". It is a great book and puts into perspective what is important and what to focus on, also what doesn't really matter and isn't worth your time.
I'm a little concerned with income tax and having to file single vs. jointly though....I believe the tax brackets are much higher for filing as a single and I won't be losing much income since we both ran our business together. The income stays the same more or less..... I probably shouldn't dwell on stuff like this until I'm actually faced with it. No use worrying about it until I have to deal with it. I told my W I'm absolutely opposed to D awhile back, so if she wants it, she needs to do the work and file. Nothing has been filed yet.
Don't sweat it, your D wouldn't be official until 2019 at the earliest, even if you filed today, so when you sit down in March of 2020 you'll still be able to file jointly for 2019 (or, we hope, 2020 and beyond). Side note, spousal support won't be tax deductible after 2018.
Wanted,
Don't get me wrong, I still am no where near detached and probably won't be for a long time, D scares the hell out of me and it is the last thing I want. But I find focusing on some of the positives helps me through the day. I get the income tax concerns but at the end of the day so what.
If you haven't yet read it, go get a copy of "The subtle art of not giving a F@$*". It is a great book and puts into perspective what is important and what to focus on, also what doesn't really matter and isn't worth your time.
I just started listening to it on audible!
I'm a little concerned with income tax and having to file single vs. jointly though....I believe the tax brackets are much higher for filing as a single and I won't be losing much income since we both ran our business together. The income stays the same more or less..... I probably shouldn't dwell on stuff like this until I'm actually faced with it. No use worrying about it until I have to deal with it. I told my W I'm absolutely opposed to D awhile back, so if she wants it, she needs to do the work and file. Nothing has been filed yet.
Don't sweat it, your D wouldn't be official until 2019 at the earliest, even if you filed today, so when you sit down in March of 2020 you'll still be able to file jointly for 2019 (or, we hope, 2020 and beyond). Side note, spousal support won't be tax deductible after 2018.
I thought that if you divorce at anytime during the year, the whole year is treated as being divorced. Meaning whichever year your divorce is finalized, you file single.