I found out about the forums not too long ago after getting the DR and DB books. I'm halfway through reading the DR book and have read some of the stickies like Sandis rules and Detaching.
Not sure how or where to begin, but I'll try to dive right in with a little background and some history. My wife and I have been together for nearly 25 years, married for 14. We have two boys, S10 and S6. Most things have never really been a big issue except I have trust issues and we are on different paths with our careers.
Back when we were teens, we both had great potential, were social, had great friends, loved life and were healthy. We both went to college but stopped. We lived together for a long time in our 20s and got married in our 30s, then got a house, and had two kids. We're both in our 40s now. She works for a great company for almost 20 years and has moved up the corporate ladder, and I, on the other hand, have moved from job to job a couple of times and ended up where I am for about 15 years, feeling like its a dead end job.
I have trust issues because I watched adults in my past lie and hurt each other. I have male friends whom, when I was young, my wife had said were cute, and I'd always wonder if I was good enough. Here's two things from the past I try not to be bothered with but seem to haunt me. When I first met my wife, she was in a long distance relationship with someone else and I was in a relationship also. I ended it for several reasons and one of them was because of her. We both were teens. She was in the process of ending it with her boyfriend as well. We both liked each other. After we barely met it was New Years and I thought I was going to be with her, but she was nowhere to be found. I was bummed but hung out with friends. Days or maybe weeks later, I asked her what happened on New Years and she told me she was with her ex and that she ended it. I was happy and didn't make a big deal about it. But the ex was her first serious boyfriend. She met him by dating his friend first, then broke up with the friend to be with him. So this was in the back of my mind sometimes. That's one of two things. The other thing is that my close friends back then were bad. They would sleep around with other guy's girls. One of my best friends slept with the girl I quit to be with my wife. So any time she was around them and everyone was playful, I'd wonder. Sometimes I would ask if everything was cool to make sure there weren't any weird emotional attachments. I never let this go....
So fast forward, after partying in our 20s with life slowing down, I quit smoking and started to gain a little weight.
After we had our first son, I gained about 50 pounds, then with the second I gained about 75. In the last year, I had gained a total over 150 pounds. She would have gained about 20. There were times I would lose 40 pounds but it would increase and just be more. My wife did try to encourage me to lose weight but my mindset was all wrong. I blame people for going out to eat at crazy fast food places rather than control what I ate from those places, I had that when in Rome, do as they do attitude.
As the years had gone by in our house, I became more of a recluse, not wanting to visit or hang out with friends. I would play video games with my older son. I thought my wife and I were at a comfortable place. I would go to the study, she would be on her ipad in the living room with the little one on his ipad. We would sometimes make time once a week or early weekends to be together. We never made time to be us like when we were younger. Another thing, we had our children sleep in our bed for the last 10 years. We had no time together. This was my fault for allowing it to happen.
Just more information about us: I'm more the physical person who needs the touching and sex more. She's not. I'm the type that , if we argue, I want us to fix it before bed time where she strays away from arguments or would rather sleep on it. We've managed to do okay for all these years until now.
Two years ago my wife lost her dad on Christmas day. This was a huge blow for her. Here is the critical information. Last year after the 1 year anniversary of his passing, she came to me and said she didn't want to be sad in front of me or in front of the boys, that she wanted to be strong. I had not cried in 15 years, I had built this wall around my emotions. I thought I was telling her what she wanted to hear at the time. I told her she didn't need to cry in front of them and that she could go behind closed doors to cry like the closet if needed. I meant well but I know how she perceived it was not well. She didn't argue anything at the time until after she said she wanted the divorce which is coming up soon. So this is one strike against me for what I said.
Two years ago, my wife and her family or my son would go on trips or to concerts or she would go on business trips and she would be elated. It was great. This year things changed. Not as many trips and the mood changed. Before our summer vacation trip she had been acting strange, distant. Sometimes she would wake up at 3-4 in the morning and be on her ipad and I would try to talk to her and she would blow me off and say its just things she's been trying to sort out. Some days I would see her doing the same thing and I would notice stuff like maybe she wasn't just reading stuff on her ipad but maybe emailing, texting or talking to someone else. I wasn't sure. During the summer we go on vacation and one morning I wake up and play footsies with her and it just ends there. When I look up and over at her it appears she's moving screens with her fingers like deleting stuff or whatever people do other than scroll the page of what they're reading, but I feel like I am blowing this all out of proportion. I confronted her about it and told her how it appeared like she pulled the phone away from me when I woke up and then swiped her thumbs. She claimed she did not such thing and I asked her if she was cheating on me. She got furious and couldn't believe I would accuse her. I'm in the doghouse.
Later we make up back at home but something is in the air. I asked her one day what was up and she told me she wasn't going on a work trip and she was bummed. I told her maybe she was overreacting and to be humble and look at what she was fortunate to have. She got really upset. Strike two. She said she knew but later on after saying she wanted the divorce, she said I wasn't in her corner on this and I didn't understand. I knew I mishandled this. She was up sometimes at night because of this, but BUT.... she had been up for weeks and not confided in me and she had been drinking sometimes which was not like her at all. I didn't catch on and I let things go by but I did try to ask and find out what the issue was.
It's the end of summer now and there's been a couple of things going on, also, her company had moved into a new building this year so she had been working out at this new gym getting into shape. New look, new clothes and undergarments. She even asked to get on birth control from the previous year. I never thought anything of it. Things just fell into place the way they did. Then one day I saw this guy's picture saved on the kids ipad which was from the icloud. I asked her about it and she said it was from a friend who texted it to her so she saved it so she could take a better look at it. I asked her to show me the friend's text and she said she deleted it to save space. I told her of all the excuses, to save space? While she had large group texts from her family saved... I still let it slide. But this guy's face was etched into my brain and I was like WTH he's almost fatter than me...
Another incident was when she had a female client friend she was starting to hang out with more often. She said she was going to go out of town with this person to a yearly company golf tournament. She was going to show her friend around. Usually she would go and sometimes would go during a weekend or just in the morning but seldomly. I asked well why cant you just go for the day and come back at night? We argued about this because I didn't trust her. With all the things going on she was very adamant on wanting to go with her friend and stay the weekend. Later after she left, she came back home that night and said her friend couldn't stay because she had dogs at home to take care of. My wife then said she left her laptop at the hotel and would need to drive back so I was thinking what is the whole point of the argument.
The storm is brewing. I have this feeling like I'm needing to find out what is going on, my wife kept saying its nothing she needs space and some distance. She isn't communicating to me and she is definitely not helping to ease my worries. I heard of this GPS tracker so I used it. I started to track her and I hated myself for using it. I would justify using it saying oh I would want to check on her being here or here. I wanted to tell her and I mentioned something about the app once during some small talk but she didn't catch on because she didn't know what it was. Well during one of our texts, I asked where she was and she said at work but that's not what the tracker said. So I did the lowest... I told her that I knew she would never lie on our kids graves so I asked her to swear that she didn't cheat and she swore. I couldn't go on, I didn't like what I was doing, I didn't bring up anything else or mentioned I knew she wasn't at work. She later told me she resented me for asking her to do that.
On top of all the drama, in July we decide to build a house. We have both our names on it and put the money down for a plot. We were going to pick the items at the design center etc. We were going to move to the next phase of our lives but we were still arguing with some underlying issues. My wife didn't want to speak on them.
Then in August, the week her boss left on a trip that she was suppose to be on, I email and text her. She's in an upbeat mood and I wanted to cheer her up. Earlier in the week we had been arguing, things were still not great at home, we argued about her distance and not opening up. We don't say I love you, we don't hug before going to work. I had started to work out to lose weight. I was miserable and depressed. Going back to her... I asked if she was at work and she said yes, so I called and she didn't pick up. I text her then she said she is in a work meeting. I texted her sister in law who also works there and she said she would check but didn't find her and then told me she was putting her phone on silence. I felt weird and then used the tracker and found out my wife was at a cantina. I sent her a pic of the location and she's mad I was tracking her and said the reason she didn't want to tell me was that she didn't communicate that she would be out earlier that week when I was asking where she would be so she thought it would be easier to divert and lie. She said it was a last minute impromptu meeting with some clients and one of her female friends with the client. I said it was pointless and I would have understood if she wanted to go out or had a last minute meeting. I naturally take it one step further... I decide to facetime her. She answers in the restroom and I'm asking where her friend is. She didn't answer or couldn't help the situation so I hung up.
I told her the night before I needed to trust her and I asked her to not ever lie to me like my mother has. She said she was better than that and wouldn't. I bring this up texting to her and then I did what hurt the most. I was at home and got destructive. I was tearing stuff up, her stuff. She later came home and saw what I had done and said she couldn't be with me. She could not forgive me. That's the first time I cried in 15 years because it kicked in, I realized what I had done. The one person I was supposed to be there for and protect, I caused hurt. I should have just walked away. I let my emotions get the best of me. I kept seeing that guy's face in the picture... That night my wife brought up what about the passion. I was so twisted I thought this was a clear sign she was cheating on me and found the passion in someone else. I later discovered what she meant in that I did nothing to kindle the flames. She later told me I stopped caring about myself, about her and us, our family. She said she felt alone and that I didn't help around the house like she would have liked. I told her that she never opened up to me. She said she is now because she has a voice. She wants to be independent.
For two months, I continued to do all the wrong things , I pursued for the kids, I smothered her. I blamed her. I also checked her phone log and saw unusual amounts of text from one number. I confronted her on it after finding out the name of the guy. He apparently texts her before her lunch and before she leaves for work a lot but not every day. I asked to see her phone and say well why isn't he listed. I was checking saved phone#s but he was under the texts. I said she was being secretive about everything and had issues with trusting how everything was lining up. She showed me his texts and asked me if I wanted to read them. I didn't have the heart. I didn't have the heart the other time to get into the car and drive to the cantina to see for myself what was going on. I left everything open. I wanted to find answers from my wife. I wanted her to fix me. I was so wrong for that. I even told her, you're on bc pills, you started being concerned about your looks, your new clothes, the guy's pic. I said there are clear signs that all point to an affair. It was all circumstantial...I had no real proof.
In the first two months, I hadn't talked to anyone. My wife and I send texts back and forth and there would be some okay days and some bad days. I started drinking a lot. I managed to lose 55 pounds in 3 months. Now my name is off the house. Some of her family knows of our situation but not everyone yet.
And here I am. I take all the blame for everything I've done to bring us to this point except that she had problems with me she harbored ill feelings and didn't give me a chance to help resolve them. She didn't communicate with me and the little she did when she wanted space, I kept pushing. Only after she said she wanted a divorce did she say she found her voice to tell me about all the problems. For two months we talked and bickered and then one day I told her I was getting help for myself. I stopped arguing with her, I started reading the books and I started to get help for myself. I'm doing the 180. She noticed immediately. I'm now learning to detach.
I have questions on detaching. My wife and I have been going out on the weekends a lot with her family for breakfast, dinner etc. When detaching do I not be around them either or her? I also work with an office full of women, some groups go out on Saturdays to try new restaurants. What is the general consensus with going out with women friends from work? Group okay, individuals no?
How can I balance being there for the kids and doing a 180 to be more helpful around the house but also be detaching at the same time? Like I help with bathing the little one more, I help with the homework. Instead of working out at the gym at work, I come home help with the kids and then get on the treadmill at home so she can see I'm putting in effort. I stopped the texting her every day. I stopped initiating every conversation and am not following her around the house but I do want to hold my end of the promises up like helping taking the kids to school and stuff like that.
Two weeks ago, we showed her family the model home which is the exact same plan she is getting. I stood quietly looking out the window and she saw me and knew it hurt that that was going to be our home but ever since August, she told friends and her siblings it was her home and that her sister who is helping to front her some money will be moving in the guest bedroom. Last week, she seemed to have felt guilty because we were out for breakfast and I had my hand on my sons shoulder and she put her hand on mine and caressed it in front of them. Naturally I placed my thumb over her hand. This was Saturday. On Sunday we go out to eat breakfast just us and the kids. I referenced the house as her house and with just us, she said our house. I was shocked... I didn't say anything. I remembered the trust nothing of what they say. Then when we got home, I'm all getting close to her. (This was before I read the detaching information) She moved away a little and my 6 year old said something like daddy kiss mom. She gave me this icy cold look and said no. I had to leave the situation and came in to read up on the detaching. After I did that's when she asked if I was still going to drop the kids off early at school and I told her we may have to revisit that so she said forget it. Am I doing the right thing? She has let me get closer to her than before in the beginning but I need to understand that means nothing and could actually hinder progress than help.
She doesn't know what I am reading but did see the book cover. She doesn't know of the site and I want to keep it that way. I did ask her once before if she would be interested in reading up on stuff and she said in her own time.
I need more info on detaching yet being that friend she needs. I feel like she may have been tempted to stray or might have been considering it, while wondering if this is all that I have to offer. I think she wants someone to match her and doesn't see that in me, and I don't know if I can come back from all the bad I've done.
If there is anything else to add, it would be that guy texted her from work one night after August and all year long before I didn't see his texts after a certain time but right after we sleep in separate rooms he texts. I got drunk one night and mentioned it and she said it was work related. There are times when other ppl from work has called her late at night. Then there are those romance novels she is so much more entrenched in reading now. She reads them all the time but sometimes I wonder if it helps her to fantasize about some other person or another life. One day after she knew she gave me her amazon password, I see this book in her browser history about affairs... and im wondering if she is for real about this or if she is testing my insecurity. I didn't bring it up.
I'm definitely going to need to come back here for strength because some days I question things, then other days I wonder how I could think such a thing about anyone else before I work on myself. I know I have a lot to work on.
Man, that is a lot to deal with. This is a great place to figure this out. I will say this. Not going to be east. I am still on this roller coaster and from what I have read/been told I am still at the beginning.
I am going to defer to more experienced here for now. Take care of yourself. Work on making healthy choices , sleep eat better, begin to up your activity level, go for walks. All activities you can do to keep a positive mindset.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
I have questions on detaching. My wife and I have been going out on the weekends a lot with her family for breakfast, dinner etc. When detaching do I not be around them either or her? I also work with an office full of women, some groups go out on Saturdays to try new restaurants. What is the general consensus with going out with women friends from work? Group okay, individuals no? .
Please please do yourself a favor and learn what loving detachment really is. There is a lot of information here on it. So many newbies get this wrong and it causes them to throttle. Detachment is not about being around her or her family or not. It is about being emotionally stable no matter what.
Also, stay away from the women. Trust me, you do not want complications right now.
How can I balance being there for the kids and doing a 180 to be more helpful around the house but also be detaching at the same time? Like I help with bathing the little one more, I help with the homework. Instead of working out at the gym at work, I come home help with the kids and then get on the treadmill at home so she can see I'm putting in effort. I stopped the texting her every day. I stopped initiating every conversation and am not following her around the house but I do want to hold my end of the promises up like helping taking the kids to school and stuff like that.
It seems to me you answered your own question. Help with the kids FOR YOU AND THE KIDS, not her. That is detachment. You seem to think detachment = absence. That is not correct. Detachment is being present, pleased, happy, upbeat, fulfilled.
After I did that's when she asked if I was still going to drop the kids off early at school and I told her we may have to revisit that so she said forget it. Am I doing the right thing?
I missed something here. Please give more information on her question. I can't tell you if you did the right thing or not without more information surrounding this exchange.
If there is anything else to add, it would be that guy texted her from work one night after August and all year long before I didn't see his texts after a certain time but right after we sleep in separate rooms he texts. I got drunk one night and mentioned it and she said it was work related. There are times when other ppl from work has called her late at night. Then there are those romance novels she is so much more entrenched in reading now. She reads them all the time but sometimes I wonder if it helps her to fantasize about some other person or another life. One day after she knew she gave me her amazon password, I see this book in her browser history about affairs... and im wondering if she is for real about this or if she is testing my insecurity. I didn't bring it up.
So Adam, you seem in denial about a lot of things. At a minimum your W's OM is a fantasy (based on the romance novels). Someone that she has conjured up in her own head. More than likely she has had one or more EAs. But based on all you've shared I wouldn't doubt if she has even been involved in at least one or more PA. You say you and her don't have sex, yet she is on BC? She travels a lot, so has plenty of opportunities. These guys that call are all from work. Lots of red flags here.
Now here is the good news, it changes nothing you should be doing. Keep up the work on detachment. But first read all of cadet's links and really learn what detachment is. Read what sandi has to say about the cashier at the store. This is the dynamic you should be trying for with your W.
Adam, lots of us have been in your shoes. All of the stuff your W is blaming this on, while obviously true, gives no one the right to step outside of the marriage. Lots of women in their 40s start to look at their life and wonder if there is better out there. My W went through this. She talked about turning 50 and being married to me as if the two were incongruent. And she pointed back to things like they were huge deals, that really weren't. The thing about the business trip and the other things you mention are excuses. Yes you've done some things that hastened the impending BD, but BD was coming for you no matter what.
You are at the right place. Hang in there. Breathe. Concentrate on your 180s and GAL. Work on loving emotional detachment. Let her go to get her back. Be the strong, confident man she hasn't seen for years. Be the spouse only a fool would leave!!
Adam, sorry and glad you are here. Take your time to read the info you are getting at the forum. Use that as tools to work on yourself.
As Cadet says, use your time wisely.
Keep posting. Welcome to the forum
Hi Adam,
You have found a great place for support. Keep posting.
Read as much as you can. Make as many positive changes as you can.
This process is about your personal growth.
Think about this:
How hard is it for you to change your habits? How hard do you think it is to change someone else's behavior?
Change the way you interact with someone forces a change in the relationship.
Never chase a cat. Your wife is a cat. Let the cat come to you. Love her by setting her free. Work on yourself.
I wanted to find answers from my wife. I wanted her to fix me. I was so wrong for that. I even told her, you're on bc pills, you started being concerned about your looks, your new clothes, the guy's pic. I said there are clear signs that all point to an affair. It was all circumstantial...I had no real proof.
What do you call "real proof"? Do you need a video of her and OM having sex before you believe she's having an affair?
You want her to give you answers, but she is not going to be completely honest with you. She will swear on the lives of her children or the graves on her loved ones...
.and it means nothing, b/c she has already compromised her integrity, and continue to deceive you in order to protect her secrets. Stop beating yourself up for trying to figure out what is going on with her. The wayward wife will twist the truth and make the H believe this is all his fault.
What do you mean you wanted her to fix you? She can't fix you. You can't fix her. She has stepped outside the bounds of matrimony and turned to someone else, so now you must focus on yourself independently from her. In other words, you cannot get healing from her while she's wayward. You've already started helping yourself with the weight loss, reading books, etc. That's great! We will be telling you things to do that may sound completely opposite of what you expected when signing up. when someone is farther down the road from you, listen to them.
I was tearing stuff up, her stuff. She later came home and saw what I had done and said she couldn't be with me. She could not forgive me.
Well, being destructive is not a good move......but FWIW, if it had not been the excuse of you tearing up her stuff, she would have found something else. I just love it (not) when the self justifying WW tells her H she can never forgive him! This is a woman who is betraying you...
.while making you feel that you are to blame. How do I know? B/c it takes one to know one.
but I do want to hold my end of the promises up like helping taking the kids to school and stuff like that.
You didn't tell us about the promises made. When did this take place? What else was promised? Did
she make any promises?
She has let me get closer to her than before in the beginning but I need to understand that means nothing and could actually hinder progress than help.
When did she let you get closer? Are you referring to her touching your hand? That meant nothing, and you ran with it. She knows she is
using you! She knows she is
deceiving you! She is playing games with you. About the most honest she has been, is when she told you she wanted her independence. So, why are you tagging along when you know she doesn't want you? Where do you stand?
As for the lack of passion and all that other stuff she said...
...she is not going to feel any desire for you as long as another man is in her head. That's just the way women are designed. She may go out to dinner with you, spend family time together, and even have sex with your body parts....
..but it means absolutely nothing, if there is OM in her heart.
She doesn't know what I am reading but did see the book cover. She doesn't know of the site and I want to keep it that way. I did ask her once before if she would be interested in reading up on stuff and she said in her own time.
Read the rules again. Don't try to get her to read anything. She is not interested in saving the MR. Don't let her see your DB books. These are your tools.
Then there are those romance novels she is so much more entrenched in reading now. She reads them all the time but sometimes I wonder if it helps her to fantasize about some other person or another life.
Absolutely! It feeds her fantasy. There is such a thing as an "Imaginary affair", which means the character (OM) is not a real person. However, it is destructive. When a wife stays in an unsatisfying MR for years, these books give her the romance that is lacking in her reality. She sees the novels as an escape or outlet for her unpassionate MR. The H hardly stands a chance with the novel's hero. It's like with some women who get so obsessed with a male celebrity, she feels in love with him. I know it sounds sick, but it happens.
I'm definitely going to need to come back here for strength because some days I question things, then other days I wonder how I could think such a thing about anyone else before I work on myself. I know I have a lot to work on.
I hope you will come here every day, b/c there is much to learn. This is not all your fault. You helped in the downfall of the MR, but you are not responsible for the decisions your W has made. I hope you will read my thread on the WW's mindset.
Did I understand correctly, that you are sleeping in separate bedrooms? Does she consider this as an "in-house" separation?
Please please do yourself a favor and learn what loving detachment really is. There is a lot of information here on it. So many newbies get this wrong and it causes them to throttle. Detachment is not about being around her or her family or not. It is about being emotionally stable no matter what.
Also, stay away from the women. Trust me, you do not want complications right now.
Got it, reread what I thought I understood the first go around on detaching, its the emotional piece. I am at a much better place than from 2 months ago. I have given her space, made attempts to validate her feelings whenever I get the chance, helped where I can without making it seem kiss-ass. Talks are never about us, the past, or the future. I allow her to be her and initiate and be comfortable. I may have slipped early on if she has this teary look in her eyes and we look at each other and I ask is everything okay, is there something you want to say and then she says no. It looks like the guilt was taking over. From that early time, I don't even bother to push with questions, all it took was one time. I had done enough of that. I told myself to build that wall up again around my heart so I don't cry... then I thought about it again, and said it felt good to cry, to feel, and let it all out. I need to embrace this with an open heart and love her like any person deserves to be loved. I don't want to wallow and be selfish in any negative way. I see what that does and how it made me feel angry all the time when we were in a relationship. I felt like during the years I fell into a slumber and let things change for the worst, but now I'm starting to wake up. I'm working on not getting triggered. I look at what I had written earlier and I am in denial. I need to just accept my intuition rather than sounding like I am still giving my W the benefit of the doubt when in 3 months she clearly is in this fantasy world.
After I did that's when she asked if I was still going to drop the kids off early at school and I told her we may have to revisit that so she said forget it. Am I doing the right thing?
I missed something here. Please give more information on her question. I can't tell you if you did the right thing or not without more information surrounding this exchange.
Sorry, I left out that two weeks ago I had offered to take the boys to school like on a Monday or Tuesday so she could work out early at her gym and she was happy with that. She had did that one week and said she was able to beat other people to the gym since a lot of them go during lunch time. After she was done working out in the morning she facetimed me saying thanks. The thought did cross my mind on what if she is seeing someone at work and have this extra early free time to be with that person. Do I entertain this idea if I am dealing with a WW? Do I make a statement saying I wont partake in any of that? Not trying to sound like a shmuck or being passive, but I don't want to think too much into it. I want to show her I am supporting her. That's on her if she decides to do anything crazy but I am helping with the kids and her if she needs. I read somewhere that dealing with the WAW, someone offered advice saying we should not be doing things for them like chores or things people in a relationship share. I don't know if I am taking this out of context without knowing the full dynamics of the situation.
You didn't tell us about the promises made. When did this take place? What else was promised? Did she make any promises?
There were no real promises made on either side, except that after that day when she said she wanted the divorce, I asked her to respect the marriage enough to not engage in anything that put us here to begin with. she said okay, but one of the early nights, I went to the room where she is sleeping with the kids and she had the door closed, I took the little one in to sleep next to her. She seemed startled and was saying she was reading up on options for the house on her ipad and jumped up as guilty as can be and walked out to the living room to start blabbing all about these options she wanted me to see. If she could only see the guilty look on her face. But I let it go. I know deep down what's going on, I don't want negative feelings to surface that'll lead to anger or some type of rage that would put anyone in danger. I think she would be scared to admit it for so many reasons, one she doesn't know what I would do and the other is how everyone would look at her.
In our first two months from August to September I did ask about how she felt on if I revisited us down the road and she said sure np. After the 2 months of this roller coaster ride, which was exhausting, we said lets chill and just not try to argue and we have. I've never asked her anything after that. It feels like coasting again though...but this time without all the arguing. Not sure if this is good or bad. She is taking this as a green light to do whatever, I am sure. She has been on a couple of weekend lunches with the "ladies" from work but I never made any attempt to care. It just feels better to think she is telling the truth rather than dwell on the negative, if that makes sense. (there won't be enough times however that I'll ask what is the best thing to do in this situation...)
So Adam, you seem in denial about a lot of things. At a minimum your W's OM is a fantasy (based on the romance novels). Someone that she has conjured up in her own head. More than likely she has had one or more EAs. But based on all you've shared I wouldn't doubt if she has even been involved in at least one or more PA. You say you and her don't have sex, yet she is on BC? She travels a lot, so has plenty of opportunities. These guys that call are all from work. Lots of red flags here.
Now here is the good news, it changes nothing you should be doing. Keep up the work on detachment. But first read all of cadet's links and really learn what detachment is. Read what sandi has to say about the cashier at the store. This is the dynamic you should be trying for with your W.
I am aware of my situation with the denial. I have been making it sound like it's all a coincidence or circumstantial when I know there is something else going on other than her being unhappy with my failings. I know she is in an affair, I just don't know the details. I imagine it's just as you mentioned it. One of the first things I read here was the story of the guy who stayed friends with his wife who had an affair and I want to be strong like that guy(I looked at the success stories for hope and I saw that true love is giving.) I want to show her unconditional love aside from personal pain I feel(to be honest there are some days I wonder why I am with her so it doesn't matter who pulls the trigger, what matters is that I am still trying even though I have felt probably just as she is). Now, how or when I deal with confronting her on the A is something I will need to research. I have been in a good place and I know these feelings can change really fast. That's why it's important to stay busy and be positive.
The thing with the BC now is that months ago after getting on it for what I thought was just so we don't have an accidental pregnancy, she has a cyst the BC is suppose to help with. She's had a couple before where I think this happened as well, the BC helps decrease the size of the cyst. She had to get a couple removed. As for work, guys call late night sometimes from the terminal and I can hear them talking if something goes wrong with her line of work. it doesn't happen all the time and I'm not saying things can't happen. They definitely can. She could take off a whole day and do whatever she wants and I'll never know. I know she has acted strangely, secretive, and the whole nine.
About the most honest she has been, is when she told you she wanted her independence. So, why are you tagging along when you know she doesn't want you? Where do you stand?
As for the lack of passion and all that other stuff she said...
...she is not going to feel any desire for you as long as another man is in her head. That's just the way women are designed. She may go out to dinner with you, spend family time together, and even have sex with your body parts....
..but it means absolutely nothing, if there is OM in her heart.
I'm in the process of reading up on the WW. I need to know how to handle this. I don't know where I truly stand because this is only the beginning. I know there is an A but I don't know if my feelings will change if I learn of the details. I know I have a long road ahead of me and to not expect anything. After I heard she wanted the divorce I was angry, I told her I was going to move out but that would have been in anger and I thought about the kids. I did not want to do that to them. If there is any day I could spend just more time with them I would. I'm not ready to leave them and have them question why we separated. Not yet, not out of anger... Right now I'm good, in a good place as can be emotionally.
If I move out now, it will be a huge financial strain. For 25 years, we had only one shared bank account and all my money went into it. A lot of money went into the new house. Once we sell this house, I might come out with enough cushion to be okay. If I move out with the situation of needing a new car as well, I'd need to look for a place near work which is pretty far from here as is. It would mean seeing the kids less. I'm not ready for that.
She was telling me she wanted the divorce after the new house is done in about another 8 months. Until then, we are living together so I can save money to move out on my own. I hope to make progress enough that in 8 months of detaching and GAL that if the D does happen I will be able to make the right decisions. Honestly, I was initially hurt by the OM, and during our first two months of arguing I had said a lot of stuff from the heart, from anger, and also fear. She said I would not forgive her if she cheated or that I couldn't get past my anger and she was right. But, I don't want to be that guy and I definitely don't want to be a weak guy letting her run all over me. I think I broke over 30 rules in the first two months after she dropped the bomb. I want to use this 8 months or however long I have to work on me and then go from there.
Did I understand correctly, that you are sleeping in separate bedrooms? Does she consider this as an "in-house" separation?
Yes, this is an in house separation. She sleeps with the kids in one room and me in another. Almost 3 months now.
The type of person I want to be is confident, loving, forgiving, patient, a good husband, a good dad, but also someone who wont put up with the affair. I want to know how I can help the situation get better to address or work on the WW.
For right now I'm doing the 180, detaching, and will be GAL with the kids and mostly by myself since most of my friends are female here from work.
Thank you all for your support and please keep it coming.
The thing with the BC now is that months ago after getting on it for what I thought was just so we don't have an accidental pregnancy, she has a cyst the BC is suppose to help with. She's had a couple before where I think this happened as well, the BC helps decrease the size of the cyst. She had to get a couple removed. As for work, guys call late night sometimes from the terminal and I can hear them talking if something goes wrong with her line of work. it doesn't happen all the time and I'm not saying things can't happen. They definitely can. She could take off a whole day and do whatever she wants and I'll never know. I know she has acted strangely, secretive, and the whole nine.
I am no doctor, but from what I have read BC doesn't help with existing cysts. It only helps stop new ones from forming.
Look, one thing you need to have at the forefront of your mind is "believe NOTHING she says". Nothing. The capacity for the WW to lie is off the chart. That is what sandi was getting at with the "the only truth she has told you is she wants her independence".
Early on in my sitch I couldn't believe the changes in my WW. And her capacity for dishonesty was off the chart. Not sure about your religious beliefs, but we are extremely strong, conservative Christians. The woman wouldn't have told a white lie to save her life. Yet in the midst of her waywardness she was so dishonest it wasn't funny. I couldn't believe anything she said to me.
There was one Friday night early in January of this year where she went into the bathroom. She used to tease me about how long I take in the bathroom, and how she could do her business in just a few minutes. Well that night she went into the guest bathroom before we went to bed. It was about 1am. She was in there for almost an hour. I just knew she was in there taking pictures for her EA OM. Sure enough weeks later I found the evidence and the date and time on the pictures confirmed my suspicions. The point is that she was willing to be dishonest. "Are you okay? You were in the bathroom an awfully long time." "Yes, I've been having stomach problems."
WWs are like adult teenagers. They will say and do anything to do what they want to do and to get away with it.
To everyone posting , thank you for the support. Steve, I do understand what you're telling me. I too looked to see if there was information out there on it and didn't find any supporting information. I didn't challenge her on it. As you mentioned all this changes nothing on what I should be doing for myself. I need to catch up on reading on WW and the infidelity section of DR this weekend. I want to be on the right path to acceptance of the sitch and finding the best solution for short term and long term. Is there any more advice on my behavior I should be aware of from what I mentioned? I will be doing a lot of homework reading up on DR this weekend.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
When I created the account I made sure to delete history and search history from the pc after every use. Is there a rule on the number of times I can post , like if it's after someone responds then it's okay but if I post then want to add more, Should I edit my previous post to include additional info, is that the norm? Can I reply to everyone in one post and then do a separate blog or keep it all in one, responses and blogging?
I have the DB book at home in a drawer and the DR in the car I drive. I'll try to find a good place for the books, the one at home is in my clothes drawer so she won't go there unless she is snooping.
Thanks for the advice.
Thanks for trying to answer our questions. You are not alone, b/c there are other men here who know exactly what you are going through and the feelings you are experiencing. Continue to read the WW threads, and ask any questions you may have.
Since this living arrangement is suppose to be a "separation", and if you don't plan to move into the new house, have you talked with a lawyer to get legal counsel? Does she intend to pay the expenses of running the new house? Who will pay the mortgage, etc.? I suggest you make a list of concerns and talk to a lawyer to see where you stand and what options you can take in protecting yourself financially, and get at least 50% time with your kids.
Not everyone agrees with what I am about to suggest, so take it for FWIW to you. Your W is wayward, has asked for a divorce, has established an "in-house" separation, etc. WW's have to experience the reality of their decisions, in order for them to clearly see the destruction they have caused. They have to experience consequences of those decisions. An in-house separation is the epitome of cake eating for the WW. She has what she wants from both her worlds. Therefore, the WW should have a taste of what her life without you would be like. Instead of you trying to spend more time with her, engage in more family activities with her, communicate more through texts, etc...
.you pull back as far as possible. When you are home, you fill up your time with the children. If the W is home for the evening, you get out of the house. It's none of her business how you spend your personal time......b/c you are separated. You don't tell her where you're going, or with whom, or when you will be home. Same applies for when she goes out. As long as both of you can be reached by phone (in case of emergency), you ask no personal questions. You don't wait up until she gets home. You turn off all the lights, lock the doors, and go to bed.
The point is that she said she wants her independence...
.so you are going to give it to her. The WW is incredibly selfish, and she thinks everything revolves around her. She no longer is logical minded, b/c she operates from her emotions, based on however she's feeling at any given moment. That alone, shows how unstable she is. She has not seriously considered losing her H, completely. She sees herself moving on with some lifestyle, maybe with OM, but in the back of her mind.....she wants to keep H emotionally attached to her. That doesn't mean she desires him as a man/husband, it just means she doesn't want him finding someone to replace her. She wants him to be her BFF, and for him to never fall in love with anyone else. Crazy, huh?
So, whenever you see her throw a crumb or two (referring to the new house as "our" house, touching your hand, etc.) don't go bananas. It is simply her tactic to keep you emotionally attached to her. She will also check your emotional temperature quite often, to reassure herself that you are still attached to her. Like when she reached over to put her hand on your hand...
.you saw that as some "signal" and later tried to get a little closer, and she shut you down cold. That's b/c she saw you were still very much interested in her. The WW is so self centered, she has to see that her H no longer is interested in her. He's not going to jump on her crumbs, b/c he doesn't want them. In fact, he acts as if he is the one dumping her, rather than her dumping him. If he'll really do this, it will be the beginning of drawing her respect for him. Before he can show what an improved husband he can be, he has to gain her respect by showing that he doesn't need, nor want, her. This may not make sense to you, but it's what the WW needs to think, and that's why the LBH can't win her back when he's the one trying to convince her to give him another chance. He has to show that he respects himself too much to settle for crumbs. Although, his heart may be aching, he doesn't let her see. All she sees is the man she set free and he is moving on without her.....and he's okay. He is self confident, GAL, and is not dependent of anything she may offer. She has put this attractive man on the market. She starts having second thoughts.
If you are saving money to afford a place to live (for you and the kids) and another vehicle, then you probably need to consider separating your banking accounts, so that you have a private account she can't access. Sorry to say, you cannot trust her. I think I previously read something about you removing your name from the new house. Is that correct? Are you financing the building of the new house? Please consult a lawyer about it. Anyway, She has a good paying job, so she should not have access to your private account. The expenses to run the current home, should be divided fairly...
.if they are not already set up that way. Like I said, you need to talk to a lawyer about everything.
Sandi, I was detaching and working on trying to identify what is happening as it occurs in real time so I can best handle it like if there is an opportunity to validate, I would, or if there is a potential argument, I'll not get baited all while detaching and at the same time using last resort efforts.
Before I go all the way I need to know how to fully proceed when the kids are involved. Is it her responsibility to do everything for them or do we communicate etc?? I know she last lost the respect and I am inclined to give this a shot but I'll need a lot more information on how to best go about this. I feel like and I may be wrong that if I try his and I flounder, she'll see right through it.
Yesterday W and her siblings during dinner said that they wanted to take their mother out for dinner tonight. W earlier today texts me a very short and to the point text on where its at and that she is picking up her mom. W stayed home with my 6 year old since he was sick last night. I had been having a stomach bug from what I ate yesterday and wasnt sure if I was going to go. After work today W FaceTimes me smiling and happy since she picked up her mom and asked if I wanted her to pick up the older one from school. I said sure and thanks since she was close by the school and I just left work. I originally was going to pick him up while she stayed home with the little one.
I get home, say hi to her mother, who doesnt know our situation, and tell W that I wont be able to make it after she tells me the older son doesnt want to go to dinner. I tell her both boys can stay home with me and that I have a stomach ache. I go to the room and shut the door. Im changing and in the master bathroom for a bit then she comes in with a puzzled but smiling look saying had she known I was going to stay she would not have picked up her mom and she would have stayed home. I told her sorry but I wasnt sure either and that it was a last minute decision based on how bad my stomach felt on the drive home. Plus, where they were going to eat wasnt going to be good for my stomach.
I encouraged her to take her mom since they all agreed. They knew she wanted to get out the house, plus they decided that without my involvement. She tried to refute my saying no I wasnt going by saying something to the effect of I was part of the family, which did surprise me and I think I had some sort of confused smiling look trying to validate how she felt, all I can remember was saying sorry I couldnt go and for her not to worry theyll have a great time taking her mother out. In my mind, Im thinking Im part of the family yet here we are going through this divorce. I felt like she was overstepping an emotional boundary about our family and where we stood, saying this now but able to disregard it on a whim. I know what she meant like in previous conversation when she had a voice and we talked a couple months back, she said I will always be a part of the family and in the boys lives. Im allowing myself to read her words differently. Shes not talking about her and me, us...
They leave and Im home with the boys. In a couple hours, W comes back after she takes her mom home. Im thinking in my head what if W thought I was distancing myself by not going and is she going to temp check me. She asked me if I had eaten and I said no. I was surfing movies on the TV and she saw a new movie come out and asked can we buy it and watch it together. I said sure if you make popcorn and she said yes. She sits next to me and we share the popcorn, shes talking and Im responding and I feel once she thought we were good she checked out, recoiling back to the other side of the couch, stopped talking as if she had seen a ghost and was back to this distant being. I was not surprised of this behavior, and it felt like she was seeing if I would pick up the crumbs and once I did she got what she wanted.
I am seriously thinking about what Sandi2 is saying on how to act towards a WW.
You got what Sandi wrote, right?
So, go and read again Sandis post and print it. The way you should behave is there.
Its a marathon Adam, be patient. Stay strong.
Hey Adam, listen to what is said here especially sandi, she knows what the WW is thinking and how our actions affect her. I am in in house separation as well and it is difficult. I agree with not being around when she is, get out and do something. It is forced at first but it gets a little easier as you go. Do some things you always wanted to do meet some new people.
My WW just started an at home job so she is around all the time. I struggle when she wants to cake eat and I have to slap myself every few days to get back to taking care of me. The WW or WAS thinks in such a bizarre way it will drive you nuts to try and get in her head.
Keep posting and listen to what is said if you want to see if you can work things out.
I know she last lost the respect and I am inclined to give this a shot but I'll need a lot more information on how to best go about this. I feel like and I may be wrong that if I try his and I flounder, she'll see right through it.
Currently you just need to focus on learning as much as you can about the subject of wayward W's. I'll help you with the respect factor, the mindset of the WW, etc., if I can. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by her seeing through it if you flounder. What she sees through is if you go into Super Husband mode, trying to kiss her a$$, and compromising your values in order to hold on to her. You can't just pretend to let her go, you really have to let go of her emotionally. She would be the first to tell you (but she won't) that if you were a "real man" (no offense), you would have kicked her out instead of letting her call the shots
..and if
you had been suspected of cheating and giving her a bunch of bs, you KNOW how she would have reacted! If things were reversed, she would not wait for the 8x10 glossy photos, before you felt the door hit you. You know that, right? She would not tolerate you doing the same things that she's done. Anyway, you are here now and we are going to do our best to give you information, advice, and support.
I need to know how to fully proceed when the kids are involved. Is it her responsibility to do everything for them or do we communicate etc??
No, it is not her responsibility to do
everything for the kids, and neither is it yours. It's a shared responsibility, but some things will be done separately. While under the same roof, try to make things as comfortable for the kids as possible. Don't expose them to quarrels between you and WW, and things of that nature. Continue having your meals around the family table, but avoid going out "as a family" with your WW if possible. There needs to be a shared calendar and a schedule, even though the two of you are under the same roof. She wants a separation, and this is what separated/divorced couples do. They have a schedule as to what parent will have the kids on what dates, who will pick up and deliver kids to school, etc. While living in a in-house Separation, the schedule would be more to do with which parent would be free to make plans to go out, and which one would be staying home with the kids that evening. That's not to imply that the other parent can't interact with the kids, eat dinner with them, etc. Keep the lines of communication open about the kids. Don't use the kids as an excuse to contact the WW, but if it's necessary, then contact her. (BTW, don't be surprised to see her use them as an excuse to contact you, as well as use them to try and make you feel guilty or anyway she can use to her benefit.) We'll talk more about that later. In the meantime, if you have questions.....just ask.
I get home, say hi to her mother, who doesnt know our situation,...
.
She tried to refute my saying no I wasnt going by saying something to the effect of I was part of the family, which did surprise me and I think I had some sort of confused smiling look trying to validate how she felt...
..
In my mind, Im thinking Im part of the family yet here we are going through this divorce...
..
she said I will always be a part of the family and in the boys lives. Im allowing myself to read her words differently. Shes not talking about her and me, us...
.
First, let me ask you if there was a discussion or agreement about not telling the family you are separated?
Okay, so about the "you will always be a part of the family". It's great to have that close relationship with in-laws. However, you are not their blood, and you will learn if there's a D, or if they support anyone.....it will be your W. They may not agree with her decisions or her actions (if they knew the truth), but they are blood, so they will stick by her.
Your W's statement is the equation of a mother kissing her little boy's boo-boo and telling him everything will be fine. My son's WW told him the
exact same thing as your WW said to you! Guess what? It's not that way. Yes, they have children they share, but they are divorced and she is married to OM, so no...
.my son is not part of her family any longer. She doesn't go inside his house, or share his holidays, or have dinner with the grandparents. That's over. They communicate through texts. She drops the kids off at the driveway and she's gone. I once loved her like she was my own daughter, but things change after a divorce.
Yes, you will be in your
sons' lives, and you need to make sure you get as much time as she gets. Just don't be deceived by her pretty words and think she means that all of you will be one big happy family together. That's so painful for you to even imagine right now. It's cruel for her to even say things like that, b/c it is deceptive. She's trying to cushion things for the big let down that's coming.
These little performances where she acts all warm & fuzzy, doesn't mean anything good for you. She may continue doing this, until she is secured in the new house. When you stop playing the game with her, and start pulling way back and spending sufficient time away from the house while she's sitting home with the kids......her tune is going to change. And, it won't necessarily be for the better, at first. Remember, she wants to keep you attached, but she doesn't want to be your wife.
Now, you may be wondering how you'll know if she truly does have a change of heart. Three things have to match. Her words, actions, & attitude. If she's saying one thing and doing another...
.she's not there. If her attitude doesn't match what she says & does, it's all fake. When she stops playing around behind your back, stops with all the secret texting, taking trips with all these "friends" and living like a single girl, instead of a married woman and mother of sons......that will be a start. When she's ready to be transparent and not feel she has to have privacy from her own H.....that will be a start. When she stops sleeping in a separate bedroom, and talking about wanting a D, and/or her "independence"...
.that will be a start. That's all it is.....a start. The words and attitude have to match the actions. So, tuck all of that under you hat, b/c it may be a while before you see any of those actions.
Are you reading the threads on the mindset of the WW?
BTW, don't decide to make some big leap without first running it by the board...
.at least, while you are a newcomer and getting your feet planted on a solid ground. You want to make sure you know how to swim before you jump off into the deep end.
Hi Adam,
A few pointers:
From personal and collateral experience in house separation rarely works. You really have to work on it and it is difficult feeling a loss of someone who you see day in day out even if they aren't talking to you. Another point is that with in house separation you are more exposed to manipulation and what I call the frog effect. Put a frog in a hot pan and it will jump immediately. Put it in a warm environment and gradually heat it up and it will stay in the pot even at the same temp where it jumped before. The reason and comparison is that we have a habit of adapting. We adapted when things went from honeymoon to transilvania and within house separation we will adjust to some of the craziest sh1t if we havent done our emotional homework.
I tend to believe that with IHS 4 things happen:
- The one with the weakest character will lose
- The WWS can adjust the behaviour pattern until they reach the bare minimum necessary to sucker the LBS
- The WWS can continue to be WW and test how good they are at covering up
- The LBS never really moves on, gets a life or focuses on themselves as they are always checking with the WWS through the corner of their eye.
I understand that a full separation is difficult for some so to overcome that you really need to hone your DB skills.
Finally, the inlaws are just that. No matter how much love there was as an in-law, their relationship with you is almost always parallel to your own relationship with your spouse.
Peace
Max
Thats scary Maximus cuz Im in that sitch and it is true. Very easy to take the bait.
Neffer, Lost, Sandi, Max thank you for the comments, the insight, and support.
I have read 2 of the WW posts and some on the stages for the LBS. Still have much reading to do, and a lot was going on. Decided to journal, Last night I was going to journal but I felt deflated and tired(not being able to think clearly to put everything into words), it was 2am in the morning after watching movies with the kids and everyone went to bed. You could hear me typing away and then I deleted. I felt like I was in a good place, then unsure, then wondering if I am backsliding or even know what I want.
Yesterday, W and I had two sets of conversations. The first one had to deal with her having a conversation with her older brother on their mom and finding her a place to stay as the mom is stating with another brother and his wife is nagging the mom to death. The brother talking to my wife asked if their mom could stay with us so she had to tell him of our D and living situation. W doesn't want mom to know. She said to me that in the future mom could stay with us. it was us this and us that. So I asked what do you mean us. She then said she didn't know. I didn't push but then she was quiet. I wanted to validate so I asked are you okay? She said she was a little sad because she didn't have the answer. I said don't worry I can imagine how confusing things are for you right now. I guess this led to more talking as she wanted to open up. She said she was sorry that she wasn't communicating and that she was trying more now. I tried to validate saying it wasn't all her, I know I was responsible too. I said I am glad we can talk without it being an argument. We're listening.
I was saying a lot of positive things like she mentioned a story about the kids one day on the car ride to school saying mom I saw you crying and were you sad, she said when and they said it was when she was talking to dad. She said she didn't know how to handle that and it broke her heart to have her children see us fighting. I told her I was sorry too and I would do better to help protect the kids from this but that sometimes, when two people argue I want to show our kids that its okay to disagree if we do it lovingly and respectfully. I told her we've had our differences our whole lives and we knew what was important enough to get across and we didn't let the small stuff interfere but now its different. I told her we argued, and compromised, we still came together. I put it all out there because I was getting tired, I wanted to let her know I knew better that I was better, in a better space. but in doing so, I cant accept certain things. A phrase she uses is I don't want to string you along or i know we are living in limbo. This was leading up to our second conversation for the night...
We've said before after BD that we don't know what could happen and we would probably change our minds 50 thousand times before the house is finished. She was actually referring to me since over 2 months ago she said she was adamant on the divorce because she couldn't forgive what I had done. She did mention something about she liked the thought of her independence when she picked the items for the house because she felt like I was too controlling with everything. I don't recall what I said unfortunately. I probably tried to validate and said something like picking items don't matter to me. There was some other stuff too during that day. she said her family noticed I changed and was more upbeat and engaging. They said there was an old version and this new version. I told her I was just picking up new habits and working on me. Like I had an awakening.
I said I liked the conversations we had, we were always arguing and now its sometimes feel like its quiet because we don't want to argue. What I got out of the early morning conversation was how it ended, she asked well are you thinking about what you will be doing at the end when we sell the house. I don't know if we spoke on selling and then what would happen with the money, I think we were going to split it so it may have prompted her asking. When I did ask about what she meant about the us, she did say she wasn't sure but also she wasn't ready for anything. Fair enough. She said something, wish I could remember but it made me think we are never going to reconcile.
She said that she was scare of the other shoe to drop and I asked what did she mean and she said if I stopped doing stuff like I was doing. I said I picked up better habits and now when I look at stuff it does bother me if there are dishes in the sink or something on the counter.
After the first talk we go to our eye exam and all 4 of us get new glasses, my youngest one was so excited to get his pair because everyone else had worn glasses besides him. We drive by the house being built, checking on things. It'll be a nice house for the kids and W. I'm thinking so many thoughts at this point.
Before I signed up to the forum, I had been straddling the fence on what to do and how I felt about my marriage. Did I want to save my marriage and why. What were the reasons, and the primary reason was for the kids. It broke my heart that I thought about them not having both of us there. It compels me to try, to keep trying, even though I may backslide or not know the best methods to approach resolution, I was still going to try. But deep down, who I am and my nature, I can't accept certain things.
***I can't accept being with someone in a MR who is lying to me or having any kind of A. I also can't fully bite my tongue when I need to. I think I have this idea that I need to tell her that I know what's going on and I'm not accepting it. I want to give her a second chance, but I don't need to***
After dinner at home, we both were sitting and casually watching something when we talked more about the morning conversation. I told her hey, you know how you don't want to string me along, well I don't want to string you along either. I told her, you know how you say you don't know where this is headed, I said I think we both know where this is headed. She said yeah. I said well put it this way, you've been mentioning that you liked your independence and all that that entails. I told her imagine if we did get back together and I knew in the back of your head you thought about your independence, how would that make me feel. she said she understood and I told her there are several things I cant deal with and even though she says nothing happened, I cant accept it.
I told her about this other life without me and I cant compete with this vision of this other life, her independence and if its with some other guy, real or not. She played that part of saying there was no one. I took this opportunity to put it all out there so she knew what I was talking about and why I did not want to push for reconciling. I said you have been reading these romance novels for a while and in the beginning I thought it would help our sex life or us but it got to the point where even when we don't have sex, its escape for you. I said even now you are always escaping to your books, to help propel this fantasy. You have this image of this person you prefer, Mr Right. I told her and we haven't gotten to the texts or the guy from work. She said omg, do you know he's married and I said so what, you're married too. I told her that's also part of the issue. Some people know of this other person, their spouse is giving them that much. Here I don't even have that decency for the truth and I'm not accepting it. I said I cant put a finger on it but I know there is something going on and I don't need proof. There is more driving this than just the error of my ways. She didn't say anything. I took that as confirmation and acceptance. We both knew.
I told her I saw the amazon book in her browser history the day she gave me the pw and there was a book she browsed on affairs and now its deleted. She said what do you mean, I don't know anything about that book or how to delete it. In the back of my mind I said the process to delete browser history is clear as day. browser history, delete item. I didn't argue. this just made me tell her, we need to set up a schedule. I was being adamant that I would like for this to work out but I don't need it to. I told her it felt like I was waking up, there was an awakening.
I said I don't know how much more you want to put into this independence but our issues don't just stem from lack of communication. The not talking to me was one thing, but lying to me was another. it shows you don't respect me and to continuously lie and not want to talk about it tells me a lot and I can not deal with that. I said when you said you wanted to be happy and you also want me to be happy, I said I felt liberated. I told her to listen to my voice. maybe before it was wavering but not tonight. I told her when I think about the kids that's the only time you would hear it crack and it did, but when I said I was over being sad about us or worried about the future, I was at peace my voice went back to being calm and I was straightforward. I said we should be concerned about when we split what happens to the kids and our things, I talked about the finances to give it a break from all the emotional stuff and to let her know I was thinking about the steps ahead. I said we should have the schedule so we know how to go about our days. She said what do you mean, you mean less family time together. i said yes. She said she didn't like that and she valued our companionship. i probably made a comment on this but i don't remember. i was always trying not to be too mean but at the same time i wanted to let her know i was serious.
She told me she didn't want a divorce. She said she thought about the insurance, the kids, every other thing except working on us. I told her the most important thing to worry about would be us and here you are thinking about other things, I said when we work on us, those things should fall into place. She then said she would not file the divorce. I did comment on the insurance though saying my health insurance would suck. this is how manipulative she is*** I'll explain this down below. She let me talk about it and I was baited. I guess I was trying to change the subject from letting her know that I knew what I was dealing with and I'm not accepting it. I was trying to stand up for myself. I had enough. I don't think I needed to validate every single thing she says and now wasn't the time. i'm feeling like I'm breaking every text book thing there is if I truly wanted to be a certain way to end up making it work. I was really coming from a place of honesty on what I cant accept. i hope this doesn't deter others who are truly working on their sitch to win their wife back into thinking this is a good way to show her.
This morning, I was going to text her saying I found two books I searched for on adultery and they are in her browser box and if she wanted she could click browser history and delete if she wanted to learn how to do it. I also said is this a good time to talk about who gets to be with the kids today. Mind you I had to get my phone from the other room this morning and I crossed her and the kids who were all waking up. I went to the room to text her and also take care of some bills. I also put in the text things I thought was going to be hurtful saying we knew this would happen yadda yadda, but then I said I was giving her a choice to go through this right now, which might mean having to explain to the older one why dad is being this way, or wait until later. maybe wait until after holidays or whenever.... I didn't send the text. i think i save it to my notes to use some of it and change up other parts later for when i do know what exactly to say to her, and then it would probably be best to say face to face
not sure yet.
i went out to the other room and saw both boys asking for me saying good morning daddy, and I hugged them tightly and told them i loved them so much, and she was laying there and asking where is my hug with her arms all out. I gave her a hug. I read her body language. she felt nothing. I used that as reassurance. i don't want to feel my love for them would cause me to despise her down the road... i thought about if I might test her, hug her, touch her, say something stupid like hey where's my hug but I'm not doing this to be needy, so I say. I'm thinking out loud, I might do that thinking I would have some one up on her, like I'm the one in control, temp checking her. I don't want to play games, but I'm emotional and i wonder if i am at a low what could really happen. I want to still give her space, love her and the time I have with the kids knowing deep down I am going to lose her but that I will be alright, because I deserve better than what she has become.
I don't know all the terms of everything yet of where I am in this whole process, but I feel like I was backsliding, and feeling good but sad like this is the second go around. I think I need to hurt, let it go, then be able to heal proper.
Well, I was rambling, I put it out there so she knows if she ever wants to try, it will be tough work for both of us. I cant easily trust her and I am glad I let her know. how I deal with the temporary temp checking, that's okay. I will see through her efforts once the house gets closer to being done. this is how manipulative she has become.
***this morning it dawned on me that when she mentioned insurance and she will not sign paper to divorce me or start the divorce like she once said, she meant her life insurance papers. A few weeks ago she told me she wanted me to sign a document that if anything happens to her I am the beneficiary of her life insurance and that I will pay her sister back who fronted her a lot of money for the house. I said sure, np. today, I said hey when you talked about insurance last night, did you mean by personal health insurance. she said yeah you know how yours is bad etc yada yada
in my mind, I said you didn't know any of that crap until I told you after you mentioned u wanted to keep me on the insurance. that wasn't the reason, it was the life insurance. she wants to make sure that if anything happened to her, I would still get the money to pay off the house and her sister. she doesn't want to divorce me. I guess this part of the goal? the next part is getting her to be in the marriage for all the right reasons now right? lol... I have to somewhat laugh at that.(not really)
i know... long post just typing it all out. some of it might not make total sense, so apologies.
Seems like I am out of it today, not really making sense. Thinking I'm validating when it's not. Typing a lot and it feels like gibberish. The whole straddling the fence instead of being on the fence, lol... Earlier after I finished typing this, I think I wanted validation too. I don't know why I felt that there was a need to go to W for support or to point out stuff ab out her. In taking this stance saying because of x,y,z reasons I am acting this way, I feel like I am going overboard. Need to reel it back in. I went back to discuss the book thing on Amazon, saying I know what I saw and then talked to her more about her actions from prior nights that didn't make sense. I even brought up the insurance and she was saying medical and not life insurance. She said fine, I don't have to look out for you. I knew it was escalating into an argument and apologized for that.
Is this common for a few people, to come here thinking they want to save the marriage but end up with a change of mind or heart? Maybe this feels permanent today but tomorrow I'll sleep on it and give it another try... Just to do better for myself and the kids.
Hey Adam, weekends are tough on the board you don't get the interaction that you do during the week. I too am not here as much but I can honestly say it is because I am more active on weekends. Then the work week starts and I find myself here more.
Hang in there buddy it is an emotional rollercoaster ride. But I will tell you that you need to start doing things to get your mind off of the sitch at hand and on to other things. I struggle with the exact same things. My W started working from home and is there a lot more than she was before and when I am around her all I think of is things that I want to know about our sitch. And I will tell you for a fact all this does is push her away further if I start asking.
I have had a good week or two just by accident. I was at a local watering hole and met a nice bartender who just went through a similar A with her ex BF. I went back a couple days this week and we eventually exchanged numbers. Not sure what will come of it but it was helpful to both of us to talk about our sitches. Even more it was great to just meet a nice person. I can't tell you how much better I felt this past week knowing that there is life outside of the world I have lived in for the last 19 years.
My WW spent the weekend away again as she has in the past and I really did not care. My point is that I know it is hard to break the lifestyle that we have become so comfortable with and doing with our spouse for all these years. But it has taken me 6 months to realize that maybe I do not love her anymore...I loved the comfort of the situation I was in. My work is not over but after a lot of backslides myself see that there is a world out there and people in it that are good. I'm sure I will backslide again but I am committed to pushing myself to get out there and you need to as well.
Hello Adam and welcome to the board. I know it's terrible being here, but I know that it has saved so many people's marriages and lives over the year. This time of your life can be a place of tremendous personal insight and growth if you take the opportunity to absorb what you read and take the time to really look inward.
In reading your earlier posts, a few things stood out to me:
1) This is not 100% your fault. Stop sulking around and playing this woe is me card where you describe how horrible you were. Marriage is a team sport and it takes two to make it work and two to make it fall apart. Own your share - the inactivity, the jealousy, the shutting down, etc. But the rest of it is at her feet and it's on her to clean it up. Focus on the things you can control and improve upon them. How can you fix these things for the next relationship you have, whether it's with W or someone else?
2) What are you doing to regain your confidence.....your swagger....your excitement in life. It feels in reading your posts that you are throwing yourself into fixing what W said was wrong. Look....no matter how much housework or childcare you do, she isnt going to find you
attractive right now. She doesnt want a maid. Or a babysitter. So you need to do those things because it's what you think is right and what you always should have been doing...not as a way to "show" her anything. So no....you dont do 'everything' or let her do 'everything'. You find that balance and do your share. If youre doing laundry, sure add the kid's stuff - but dont go around folding her clothes because you want to prove you can do her laundry.
3) What are you doing to GAL? I didnt see any mention of you having hobbies or going out or meeting new people? Its an incredibly important part of the process. For me, it was the MOST important. Put the kids to bed or take turns being the "parent in charge" after work - and then go out and do something (and not going to the bar to talk about your sitch with someone!). I mean, start a new hobby. Join a meetup. Volunteer somewhere. The activity doesnt really even matter that much.
You could hear me typing away and then I deleted. I felt like I was in a good place, then unsure, then wondering if I am backsliding or even know what I want.
Even if it's crazy rambling, theres no harm in putting your thoughts to words. Just dont show them to W. Lots of people write imaginary letters and then burn them or store them all away.
She said she was a little sad because she didn't have the answer. I said don't worry I can imagine how confusing things are for you right now. I guess this led to more talking as she wanted to open up. She said she was sorry that she wasn't communicating and that she was trying more now. I tried to validate saying it wasn't all her, I know I was responsible too. I said I am glad we can talk without it being an argument. We're listening.
This doesnt seem like validating to me. It isnt about reassuring her. Frankly, saying things like "dont worry" is INvalidating. She says she is worried and your first response is to tell her not to! I would say a better answer would be something like "there are a lot of things to be sad about right now." The point of validation is to HEAR her. Not to SOLVE her problems. And not really to AGREE with her either. It's just about
listening[/]b and[b]understanding. When she says that she is having troubles communicating, you dont need to take blame - that isnt validation. Better is something like "there are a lot of tings in motion right now, so I can imagine it must be a confusing time for you." You want to understand how SHE feels - not solve whatever it is she is going through.
She did mention something about she liked the thought of her independence when she picked the items for the house because she felt like I was too controlling with everything. I don't recall what I said unfortunately. I probably tried to validate and said something like picking items don't matter to me. There was some other stuff too during that day. she said her family noticed I changed and was more upbeat and engaging. They said there was an old version and this new version. I told her I was just picking up new habits and working on me. Like I had an awakening.
Again....this isnt validation. Its solving her problems. Not listening to what she is saying.
I get it. It feels like you need to have an incredible
DEFENSE right now. Like you need to
SHOW her that when she says a problem that it will be better in the future. That you are changed. Better. Awakened. Aware. Whatever the word or feeling is. But it's not about YOU right now. So something like "Yeah. It can be frustrating feeling controlled." Or "It's certainly nice to feel in control of your decisions". or you can ask questions "it sounds like you feel like I always wanted to have the 'final say' on things?" It's about understanding her feelings. Not about improving or resolving them.
When I did ask about what she meant about the us, she did say she wasn't sure but also she wasn't ready for anything. Fair enough. She said something, wish I could remember but it made me think we are never going to reconcile.
Look. What if I told you that every time you ask a question ANYTHING like this, it sets you farther back....
Stop putting pressure on her. You know the rule "Believe nothing they say..." Theres a reason for it. Because feelings change. Because she just doesnt KNOW what she is feeling from moment to moment. You see that hot and cold pattern. Its because thats who she is right now. So any answer she gives is a waste of breath anyway. Stop putting pressure on her to set your course. Be your own man, and let what happens happen.
I can't accept being with someone in a MR who is lying to me or having any kind of A.
Adam. Your wife is having an affair of some kind right now. What are you doing about it? Frankly, it reads like you are sucking up to her.
***long conversation deleted***
I think you need to read up on boundaries. Like I said above, you called her out, and....now what? I really wish you had come here before confronting, because....now what? You say you cant accept her lying or her cheating or whatever. But HOW are you showing that? In the next breath, you say you dont want to divorce her. So what happens if she does it again? Because, Adam, she IS going to lie to you again. So what are you going to do about it now that you have made this "stand"?
It reads like you want her to feel guilty and come back to you because of guilt or shame or because she doesnt have any options. Rather than tell her what she needs to do...focus on you and what you need. "I am only interested in being with someone honest and loyal and trustworthy." rather than "you need to stop lying if you want to be with me." Read up on boundaries (after you read more on validation).
And look, stop trying to do everything all at once. TIME is your friend right now. Spend it reading an learning. Go and GAL. Kind of put your relationship on the back burner for the moment (as hard as it must be). Focus on you and your kids. Set goals and start fulfilling them. Basically, leave W to do as she wants for now.
Finally - you have to learn to keep your emotions in check. YOU need to be the stable, consistent one. Things are going to get worse. You need to be the steady one. I pictured myself as a giant rock while my ex-wife was the tides rolling in and out and around. You need to set your goals and your standards and adhere to them as much as you possibly can. Stop talking so much to her. Be a leader. Let your actions do the talking for you.
You can do it.
Keep reading and keep posting.
Lost , thank you for the support. I really appreciate it, need all of it I can get right now. Sorry to hear about your sitch but it's good to know you are GAL and that you are feeling better from it. There are so many wonderful people out there and here like yourself for taking their time to help a random stranger out with my sitch. I barely have time during the week and my time is really divided on the weekend being at home separated. When I'm on the computer or iPad, I have to be very careful when my 6 year old comes in asking me to do something with him. I have to clear everything on the pc, clear iPad etc if I can't bring it with me. Typing this on iPhone with my fat fingers takes the whole lunch break
Amoafwl, just wow at the info, thank you so much. You are right, I knew I should not have been baited and instead of just stopping I had to keep pushing knowing we will be on this rollercoaster ride for a long time. I know I have a lot of work ahead of me. I can't take back what I said... but I can dust myself off and continue to educate myself and really learn, not just read but absorb all the info and advice. I need to STFU, and make it a habit to come here to learn, share, decompress , get away from W and GAL. When the bomb dropped I was really weak and said we. Like he together for the kids, try anything, do anything, and now I felt ashamed and felt like I needed to let her know how I felt but you're right. I should have done way better at validation and knowing it isnt about me or trying to fix things. I really need a lot of help with ALL of this from validation, to boundaries, to self control, GAL, everything and knowing and learning about my sitch and what to expect and how to better handle the sitch like when in doubt maybe I need to keep quiet instead of always trying to have an answer for everything. Thank you.
That΄s what it is Adam. You need to take your TIME.
Keep reading, keep posting!
Yeah.....most of us need to learn that. Make sure you stock up on STFU Smoothies
make it a habit to come here to learn, share, decompress , get away from W and GAL.
GAL is maybe THE most important thing you can do for yourself right now. Evry time you are hanging around at home while shes there it's pressure on her. And you wind up right back into long discussions and so on.
When the bomb dropped I was really weak and said we. Like he together for the kids, try anything, do anything, and now I felt ashamed and felt like I needed to let her know how I felt but you're right.
Let go of the past. We've all been there.
After finding phone records of my ex-wife and OM talking for over an hour every day for months, I remember texting her things like "just promise me I have nothing to worry about and Ill drop it". Like....how weak is that? But nothing I can do about it now. So I forgave myself for not knowing what I didnt know. And I have worked to make sure that these ar things I know now.
I should have done way better at validation and knowing it isnt about me or trying to fix things.
It takes practice and effort and research. Can you do particle physics? If not, would you expect t be able to answer complicated problems from reading one textbook? I mean, probably not. It takes years of study, effort, practice and so on. While admittedly far less complicated, validation takes time to develop your skill. It wont happen over night.
maybe I need to keep quiet instead of always trying to have an answer for everything. Thank you.
Someone told me once that right now, you see the sky as blue and she sees it as green. No amount of talking on your end is going to convince her that it is blue. Validation is about trying to see through her eyes rather than try to figure out what is right. Or true.
Her perception is her reality. However that manifests itself. Dont try to impose your reality on to her.
Okay, I hope people will stay balanced when reading this post. I notice how many newcomer nice guys put so much focus on validating their wayward W. Not only should he not validate everything she says, but I think he needs to focus a little less on validating someone who would disrespect him and want to walk away from their family/marriage. He should focus more on how to show strength and dignity, while commanding respect (not that validating is a sign of weakness, but it's how the WW often sees it). I've seen some men so focused on validating, they actually fail to recognize the disrespect his WW is showing him. She may be slaughtering him, and his mind if on how he can validate her. That's just crazy to me!
When a man is trying to validate a wayward woman every time she opens her mouth, it could make him appear like an a$$ kisser in her eyes......which is the last thing in the world he needs to do. She hears it as if he is giving her sympathy, justification, and/or agreement.....and that's not the message she should be receiving during the time she's trying to break up the MR. (They are called "wayward" for a reason!) Sometimes, when guys first read about validation, they do it so much that it becomes a turnoff to her, b/c he overkills. I'm not saying the H can't ever validate her, but I'm saying that's not the most important thing he needs to be doing when she's being unfaithful. I know the validation advice is passed around a lot, just like GAL and 180's, but why some LBS's think they should validate every sentence the wayward spouse utters,
..is beyond me. Sometimes, it shows more strength when a man just looks at the woman and listens. He doesn't have to say anything. Know what I mean?
Sandi, thank you for the 2x4 and your invaluable insight and time you've taken to give me advice. I had not been able to respond adequately to some of the questions and I have had to reread what you've said. The issue with me is that I was in denial thinking I had a WAW and not WW. I mean I knew and after BD, I told her I would rather sleep in the car and shower at work than to get her help on anything... then the thought of hurting the kids clouded my judgement.
When I picked up the DR book I was also reading something else which didn't specifically address WW. I was learning to 180, GAL, and working on communication from another book. Nothing I had come across until your posts put me in her head. Reading some of the information on what we could immediately do to "help" was the validation and 180. Because I thought I wasn't good at it and needed practice, because I thought this was something immediate I could work on with her(because I think men in my shoes still want that connection with WW, any connection where we think we are doing something right) I took every opportunity to try but you are right, there were times when I should not have said anything and just listened. There were times I felt like I was forced to say something because if I didn't I wasn't working to to make some kind of progress. Sometimes I was working against my better judgement and instinct to follow it "textbook". Part of the 180 was showing I cared, trying to open up, carry on this dialogue rather than not be involved.
In short,I was hung up on learning about dealing with a WAW that I thought some of those processes are the same in dealing with a WW.
Also i haven't completed the WW series which I am going to do tonight. I am here at work in the gym taking some time for myself, working out and responding.
When I got affirmation I was dealing with a WW I was a little sad for a moment and then I felt better knowing to follow my gut instinct.
To answer some of your questions, no, W and I never had an agreeement on who we can tell in the family of our Sitch. i need to read the rules again on that ... I haven't even told my mother or other ppl I am close to. Only one brother out of a few siblings, close friend, and few ppl at work. I stopped talking to them after coming here.
Also I looked for a few attorneys and got numbers but haven't called any yet. Can I ask, what are your thoughts on LBS contesting if there is a D? Like in this case if she wants more than fair , contest? I'm thinking the process will be simple but I don't know what to expect so feel free to chime in on this process. I initially thought if she never came clean I would contest to get it on record there was infidelity and request copies of texts. The part of me that wants to heal past that says it's not worth it, but aside from the emotions, is there any other reason I should contest or say that there was infidelity to protect myself legally?
Another thing, we are splitting finances responsibly but it may be a while if i can move out on my own but if I have the opportunity, what is the consensus on moving out to successfully DB vs staying with IHS? I think as I learn how to be better at GAL and losing my emotional attachment to her while in house, she may be getting used to it and it not have a stronger effect as mentioned earlier by Maximus.
Maximus, thank you for that info on the challenge with IHS.
From Guide for LBH who has a Wayward Wife
That leads me to the second part. As the rejected party, the H cannot enable her in this terrible, disrespectful behavior. Every time he does, it will set him back. Before he can show her what a wonderful & improved H he wants to be, he has to prove what kind of man he is. All of this still comes under the heading of DBing.
From Guide for LBH who has a Wayward Wife 4
For DBing to be successful, the LBH needs to come down HARD on the WAW because the emotional allure is like a powerful riptide tearing her and the M asunder.
From action list before DB forum:
2-LOSE YOUR FEAR of WAW. Reclaim your balls back from her purse.
3-Pull out the "not willing to live in an open M/no-OM boundary" script.
( I need more information on all the above, are there breakdowns of what these mean and what specific actions to do/NOT do?)
I had skimmed this before and was skimming to find the actions to match but had not so I interpreted that in my own way and made a declaration or this "Stand" to my wife before running it by the board as Sandi requested, my bad! I had jumped the gun when I made my stand to W on what type of person I am. I really meant to let you all know that I was telling her I wasn't scared to lose her, to let her know I was not wavering in my voice, I am serious. The only time there is hurt was when I talked about the kids. I knew what she was doing. Yes I know I said too much but it also felt good to let her know I wasn't scared to lose her. When I realized I was becoming like her as in losing this emotion of love or not putting emphasis on it for now, I wondered if I was in the right place, on the right forum. I was expecting to look elsewhere for help with my kids and how to help them navigate this rough time, what to say to them and all that, but I had to take a step back(expect nothing I said...expect nothing and I might gain everything...expect everything and I might gain nothing), I still have a lot to learn from every wonderful person here who will help me not just in this sitch but in my life, for the rest of my life. So I'm here writing blocks of text as you all already have witnessed.
(I will be working on paraphrasing too, just saying for those alrdy saying get to the point, :))
Is it normal to feel like shutting down and not wanting it to work because of how this will affect the kids? I really don't know if I can forgive her for that. I feel like I want to ride this out like a free ride and at the end when we sell the house, I get what's mine and I'm good...I don't know, maybe I'm just too much of an angry person so I need to WOOSAH.
As for the actions? Now that I've read more of the WW posts(not able to read all the replies yet but will at some point), I'm not going to fall for those things I was doing before. When my 6 year old says daddy hug mommy, or daddy do this, I am not going to entertain that but will deflect. She has, so will I. She temp checks, she can get burned like frostburn. When she wants to discuss things about us or anything that can lead to us, not going to take the bait. When she texts, not going to jump on it. Maybe not even respond like tonight when I was working out. When she's here, I leave to the room. Instead of her making my morning coffee, I'm going to tell her to make sure it has 2 spoons of sugar, always. No seriously, I'll be doing that. As for laundry, she still does mine.... I .. will.... tell... her
not... to...do...that... anymore /sadface. When it comes to buying meals or dinner, I might tell her no need. Of course I need guidance on a few of these things. These are just actions saying, I am not dependent on you, I don't need you to do this for me or I am not going to be sitting around like a little puppy waiting for you except if it's sex. J/K.
Where's that list of MOJO-REJUVE? That's what I need. Going back to above paragraph...Definitely wont be catering to her but sometimes in the past we went out and she'd say I'm not bringing my wallet... is this the time to let her know we will be going dutch? I pay for the kids and myself and she pays her own? Even though I say we're splitting finances, she's still paying a bit more so its not like total 50/50 so I think she feels its okay when we split who pays the meals, sometimes she does, other times I do. Can this work fine or is that still working as a unit when right now, it has to be total solo?
(In between typing this was also reading the WW series and the Reflections. I do have questions like in the past when she said, "I am wanting to go with my friend for the weekend to the company yearly golf event" if I said I don't agree with it and she insists, what can I do at that point besides trying to rationalize with her? What are other actions besides using our words can we take? Can't hold out on the sex... handcuffs and whip? but on a serious note, I always do appreciate the responses and advice.
This is coming up...
She wants for both of us to drive our boys to an out of town Christmas light show next week. I said sure thinking about the holidays may be the exception for family time.. Thanksgiving is coming up and we will be doing a small family get together. Are there posts on the best way to handle these events? The Christmas light show, since I said yes, cant back out now right? She told me in advance that there's two company holiday parties she was invited to and has told me about. When she was working from home on my computer the other day, she had her Citrix up and I saw the company email... go ahead and let her do her own thing and not care or is this where we put our foot down? This is the confusing part, We stop the disrespect if she says something, I get we challenge but what about the other stuff like the going out, the events? How do we come down hard regarding those things with her time and how/where/who she wants to spend it with? Sandi, didn't earlier you say get a schedule and we use that for things like this? Don't question her, don't do nothing about where she goes etc right? Is this coming down hard, meaning we can care less what she does? By showing her we don't care, she'll care? But when it comes to words, we check the disrespect? Need more info on this, I think I asked above.... Need to know when we check her disrespect, what's appropriate and what is not, like what's over the top. Anyone got any scenarios to run on what's not too mild or crazy over the top?
One other thing, like earlier posts saying to not get other women involved when I GAL, I also read that we dont want to use jealousy to get the wife back... dont recall if that was from DR or another book, or article. W has been asking me more frequently now if there is someone else or if I have someone on the side. This temp checking right? I thought what DR said was that we let them know we want to work it out and that there isnt anyone else but thats it, dont offer much more than that. Im guessing this was for a WAW and not WW, who needs to be handled differently, yes? Do we even need to reassure them for their sake? Im thinking what for.... its probably a temp check or their guilty conscience so why bother satisfying her either way? Am I missing something?
I had skimmed this before and was skimming to find the actions to match but had not so I interpreted that in my own way and made a declaration or this "Stand" to my wife before running it by the board as Sandi requested, my bad! I had jumped the gun when I made my stand to W on what type of person I am.
The problem with taking a "stand" is that you need to be very clear and very firm. A weak boundary is worse than no boundary at all. Let's say you tell your W "I will not live in an open marriage." You can't expect HER to be the one to change to bend to your rules. So, that means, you need to be clear on what will happen if she doesnt change. In other words, if you continue to find yourself in an open marriage, what will you do? Cut off your financial support? Move out? File for Divorce? etc. Your boundaries cant be hollow or they dont mean anything and only set you back. I see a lot of times, LBHs use this "stand" as a way of trying to drive change in their WWs. I know that was what I was doing when I tried to make a similar act. But I didnt have enough self-confidence and hadnt detached nearly far enough for that to do anything but hurt the overall situation.
I really meant to let you all know that I was telling her I wasn't scared to lose her, to let her know I was not wavering in my voice, I am serious.
So now what? If she doesnt change her behavior......what are you going to do to back up your words?
Yes I know I said too much but it also felt good to let her know I wasn't scared to lose her.
I wouldnt use your feelings as a guide for what is "progress". Have you read DR? Do you have goals? Is this act that "feels good" getting you closer to them? If not, then it doesnt matter how it feels...
I wondered if I was in the right place, on the right forum. I was expecting to look elsewhere for help with my kids and how to help them navigate this rough time, what to say to them and all that, but I had to take a step back
I mean, we arent really therapists. Or experts in child psychology or anything like that. I mean, at some point, you and W will need to sit them down and explain what is going on. But the details of the words and how to do it isnt really something the people here are capable of scripting for you. When that time comes, Im sure we can offer some suggestions based on our experience if you need it though.
Is it normal to feel like shutting down and not wanting it to work because of how this will affect the kids? I really don't know if I can forgive her for that. I feel like I want to ride this out like a free ride and at the end when we sell the house, I get what's mine and I'm good.
Im having trouble understanding. You want things to NOT work, because splitting up is BETTER for the kids? That seems unlikely to be true...?
As for the actions? Now that I've read more of the WW posts(not able to read all the replies yet but will at some point), I'm not going to fall for those things I was doing before. When my 6 year old says daddy hug mommy, or daddy do this, I am not going to entertain that but will deflect. She has, so will I. She temp checks, she can get burned like frostburn. When she wants to discuss things about us or anything that can lead to us, not going to take the bait. When she texts, not going to jump on it. Maybe not even respond like tonight when I was working out. When she's here, I leave to the room. Instead of her making my morning coffee, I'm going to tell her to make sure it has 2 spoons of sugar, always. No seriously, I'll be doing that. As for laundry, she still does mine.... I .. will.... tell... her
not... to...do...that... anymore /sadface. When it comes to buying meals or dinner, I might tell her no need. Of course I need guidance on a few of these things. These are just actions saying, I am not dependent on you, I don't need you to do this for me or I am not going to be sitting around like a little puppy waiting for you except if it's sex. J/K.
It's all very "wordy". Dont tell her not to do your laundry. Pick up your slack and just do it yourself. Good on the texts - you dont need to jump to reply ASAP. For dinners, I dont think who pays for dinner really matters - the money is all joint anyway at this point. But, maybe cut back on family dinners and family time to begin with. Get a schedule together of which nights you will watch the kids and which nights she will. When she has them, try to plan a GAL activity for yourself to get you out of the house - dress nicely, shower, etc. (Don't pretend you are going on a date, but just dress to feel and look good). Help the kids with their rooms, their HW, etc. Plan a fun outing to take them somewhere on a Saturday or something. These things you can offer to W to join, but dont rely on her to attend or be supportive - go with 0 expectations of her.
(In between typing this was also reading the WW series and the Reflections. I do have questions like in the past when she said, "I am wanting to go with my friend for the weekend to the company yearly golf event" if I said I don't agree with it and she insists, what can I do at that point besides trying to rationalize with her? What are other actions besides using our words can we take? Can't hold out on the sex... handcuffs and whip? but on a serious note, I always do appreciate the responses and advice.
She told me in advance that there's two company holiday parties she was invited to and has told me about. When she was working from home on my computer the other day, she had her Citrix up and I saw the company email... go ahead and let her do her own thing and not care or is this where we put our foot down?
I mean, why would you say she "cant go" to begin with to a work event? If it's because of OM, then you need to reconsider the stand you took and what this means. If it's just because she's getting out of the house, then make sure it's on the calendar, and block off some time for you to do something also.
Don't think of what you are doing as PUNISHING her. Or controlling her. Or limiting her.
All you can control is YOU and your reactions and your actions. and your boundaries.
She wants for both of us to drive our boys to an out of town Christmas light show next week. I said sure thinking about the holidays may be the exception for family time.. Thanksgiving is coming up and we will be doing a small family get together. Are there posts on the best way to handle these events? The Christmas light show, since I said yes, cant back out now right?
You go with 0 expectations. Be upbeat, carefree, pressure-free. Happy and excited for the kids. Show your best self. And like I said, no expectations. Its an event for your kids that she is tagging along to. It doesnt mean she wants to be with you. So no hand holding, longing glances, etc.
This is the confusing part, We stop the disrespect if she says something, I get we challenge but what about the other stuff like the going out, the events? How do we come down hard regarding those things with her time and how/where/who she wants to spend it with? Sandi, didn't earlier you say get a schedule and we use that for things like this? Don't question her, don't do nothing about where she goes etc right? Is this coming down hard, meaning we can care less what she does? By showing her we don't care, she'll care? But when it comes to words, we check the disrespect? Need more info on this, I think I asked above.... Need to know when we check her disrespect, what's appropriate and what is not, like what's over the top. Anyone got any scenarios to run on what's not too mild or crazy over the top?
Like I said, all you can control is you. So if she is going out to see OM, you dont say things like "have fun". You lock up the house and turn out the lights when youre ready to go to bed. You dont wait up or check on her when she gets back. And so on. Shes a grown up and you cant control what she does or who she does it with.
Thanks Amoafwl, true on the empty boundaries part. I shouldn't try to test things and also you're right on my. Moment about shutting down and not wanting to work it out for the kids sake and the family. I was again speaking out of emotion and I have to let a lot of that go to detach, I woke up this morning thinking about what I said and I was telling myself today to be the rock. Thank you.
I sound more confused than I thought I was. It feels like I am trying to show W and share with her x,y,z. I need to stop as much of that as possible. Whatever else I am doing or feeling that's not right for my sitch, I hope to put it all out early so I can get straightened out asap, knowing it's a looong road ahead.
Adam, listen to what Amoafwl is telling you. Essentially he is saying "act, don't talk". If you won't tolerate certain things SHOW her that, don't tell her. If you want her to stop doing things for you, show, her don't tell her.
Words are cheap. Why? Because she will say anything to manipulate you, get you to lay off, to hide what she is doing, etc. She will assume the same about your words. So just act, don't talk. If she asks you can reinforce your actions with your words.
For instance, if you start doing your own laundry, when she asks you can say something to reinforce your actions. "I've decided I need to become more self-sufficient to prepare for the future." (Or something that makes sense.)
I found in my sitch, as I got more independent, my W started WANTING to do more for me.It went against what her words were saying? "I want out of this marriage, I don't want to be your W anymore." But then she continued to behave like my W and even became a better W!
Remember, don't believe anything she says. Both negative and positive. Another thing my W told me on BD and shortly after was that she wasn't attracted to me and didn't want to have sex with me. And then suddenly she was initiating fairly regularly! You can't make this stuff up.
When I got affirmation I was dealing with a WW I was a little sad for a moment and then I felt better knowing to follow my gut instinct.
IMHO, if a man had a choice between a WW, WAW, or MCLW...
..the WW would probably the easiest or quickest to change her mindset. Not that any are "quick/easy", mind you, but the MLCW usually has some past issue that affected her psychologically...
.and who knows how long that will take to heal. I do believe we see some newcomers jump over to the MLC forum, b/c they can't accept that their W is wayward. I see the WAW being one who has legitimate reasons for leaving. In other words, her H was abusive in some way, or he wouldn't work to support his family, or he has been imprisoned, or he's a womanizer, in an affair, or something that prompts the W to leave the M and make a new life for her and the kids. But the WAW does not have a selfish, hidden agenda that the WW has. She does not have the same heart as the WW. The WAW is not going to walk away from her children in order to be independent and "find herself". The WW will show signs of a girl gone wild lifestyle or having a secret affair before she exits the M. Some are able to keep the OM a secret until they split from H, but the OM immediately comes on the scene. In WAW cases, I don't think she has her eyes set on another man, or even dating at the point of leaving the M. I see her as the one the H would have the hardest time "proving" he had changed, or her giving the MR another chance.
The reason I asked if there had been an agreement about not telling family members, is b/c she immediately wanted to cover up and play happy family when her mother & siblings arrived. There are no particular rules, other than not pulling the family members into the mix by discussing the problems, getting their help/advice, etc. That's not to say you have to lie for her, or help her hide her affair. If her mother wants to spend several nights, that's your W's problem, but she should not expect you to play along. Some women expect the H to let them back into the MBR, until the parent leaves and then she's go back to their previous separated arrangements. I've seen some WW's who want to get a D, stay in the same house, and not tell the parents. That's just nuts!
Can I ask, what are your thoughts on LBS contesting if there is a D? Like in this case if she wants more than fair , contest? I'm thinking the process will be simple but I don't know what to expect so feel free to chime in on this process.
I think you need to know where you stand legally, regarding child custody, finances, property, etc. It helps some men just to know what the law says. Sometimes other women start whispering in the ear of the WW, telling her she needs to get everything (even file false charges, if necessary)...
.instead of settling for her fair share. If that's the route she takes, then I believe the H should fight for at least 50% custody of the kids, and whatever his lawyer advises. The M is over, so why wouldn't he protect himself and his children to the best of his ability? If she's being fair and cooperative, then great. If she tries to scr@w him over.....then he should get a shark lawyer, if that's what it takes to protect his rights as a father. That's just my opinion. Be prepared! Many WW's hit while the LBH is still in shock and wanting to save the M. The H mistakenly thinks if he gives her whatever she wants, it will somehow melt her cold heart and save the M. It doesn't.
I don't know where you live, but if in the USA, I don't think infidelity makes any difference. Depending on the case, it may play a part in how child custody goes, but you'd just have to check with your lawyer. Some lawyers will give you one free consultation visit. However, that may have more to do with fees and services, than answering some of these type of questions. My advice to husbands/fathers is not to go blindly into it, thinking she would not be greedy and take your retirement fund or get alimony and full custody of the kids. This is not the girl you M on your wedding day. She's going to get everything she can!
I'll continue in next post.
Thank you Amoafwl, Steve,and Sandi for the support and advice this morning. I hear it. Actions not words.
My W told me last week that her family said this new me they see they like more engaging, more helpful.... I did tell her then to let them know it was because I was preparing ahead.
Is this bad the night we did talk few days ago, I was talking about continuing to work out, lost almost 60 pounds and she made a comment like maybe in the future if you're slimmed down we can maybe you know, I was like wtf, no. She asked why...so I told her I would be like where were you. Is that too cold or much to say to a confused person? Just don't say nothing at all?
MHO, if a man had a choice between a WW, WAW, or MCLW...
..the WW would probably the easiest or quickest to change her mindset. Not that any are "quick/easy", mind you, but the MLCW usually has some past issue that affected her psychologically...
.and who knows how long that will take to heal.[quote=sandi2][quote]
Hey Sandi what are your thoughts on a WW with a MLC? That is where I think I am and it may be a lost cause.
One other thing, like earlier posts saying to not get other women involved when I GAL, I also read that we dont want to use jealousy to get the wife back... dont recall if that was from DR or another book, or article. W has been asking me more frequently now if there is someone else or if I have someone on the side. This temp checking right? I thought what DR said was that we let them know we want to work it out and that there isnt anyone else but thats it, dont offer much more than that. Im guessing this was for a WAW and not WW, who needs to be handled differently, yes? Do we even need to reassure them for their sake? Im thinking what for.... its probably a temp check or their guilty conscience so why bother satisfying her either way? Am I missing something?
Her asking is a good thing b/c she is curious. Just tell her "I was out with friends". That's it. You are not trying to make her jealous, but at this point it is really none of her business plus you are telling the truth. If she thinks there's another person in your life, that's only her thoughts and not reality. It's a temp check.
Don't focus on "showing" her the "new you" and just be yourself - a person who is committed to being the best person while still being humble. I hope this makes sense. I mean to say, don't flaunt your changes, settle into your 180's and be natural.
MHO, if a man had a choice between a WW, WAW, or MCLW...
..the WW would probably the easiest or quickest to change her mindset. Not that any are "quick/easy", mind you, but the MLCW usually has some past issue that affected her psychologically...
.and who knows how long that will take to heal.[quote=sandi2][quote]
Hey Sandi what are your thoughts on a WW with a MLC? That is where I think I am and it may be a lost cause.
Hey Lost, I gave that some thought too but haven't really been in the MLC section for too long, aren't there 6 stages to that? I was wondering if a WW didn't get a chance to "sow her wild oats" when she was younger, has been in a relationship for a long, long time, and she feels like she is in her prime in her 40s and becomes WW, would that be a MLC?
Also ovrrnbw, I hear you. I don't want it to be Contrived.
W today is texting me on what she is doing later with the kids and when I'm not immediately responding she asked if we aren't talking now. Told her no, we are... just waited for break time to respond, said ok then left it at that. She responds okay I was checking to make sure you got my text. To that I didn't respond.
Amoafwl, I think you mentioned I haven't stated any hobbies of mine. For the last couple of months I've hit the gym Monday thru Thursday here at work after work for an hour to hour half or I go home to help with the kids then work out there. Want to realistically lose 60 more pounds but aiming for 100. Been watching what I eat, playing basketball with the kids, both love it. Started putting puzzles together of all things with the 6 year old. Completed a 1k piece one not too long ago. I have my art supplies I haven't touched in a long time. I was going to be an arts major long ago but stopped. I want some solice and trying to find the right time to get back into that, creating, painting. Hard to do when my 6 year old asks me to help him with his legos every 10 minutes. I've gone to the gym once on a weekend. I tend to sign up to do more of that. Maybe watch a couple movies by myself. Have tons of books to read.
WAW only. WAW/WW. WAW/WW/w/MLC.
NONE OF IT MATTERS!!
The things you should be doing are the same. Detaching. Learn to be okay on your own! GAL. Don't be so wrapped up in your primary relationship. GAL is UBER important, so double-down on it. Look at your own toxic behavior and 180 on it.
Either you WAW, Or WW. Or W w/MLC will come around or she won't. Your focus is on YOURSELF, not on HER.
Amoafwl, I think you mentioned I haven't stated any hobbies of mine. For the last couple of months I've hit the gym Monday thru Thursday here at work after work for an hour to hour half or I go home to help with the kids then work out there. Want to realistically lose 60 more pounds but aiming for 100. Been watching what I eat, playing basketball with the kids, both love it. Started putting puzzles together of all things with the 6 year old. Completed a 1k piece one not too long ago. I have my art supplies I haven't touched in a long time. I was going to be an arts major long ago but stopped. I want some solice and trying to find the right time to get back into that, creating, painting. Hard to do when my 6 year old asks me to help him with his legos every 10 minutes. I've gone to the gym once on a weekend. I tend to sign up to do more of that. Maybe watch a couple movies by myself. Have tons of books to read.
I think it's VERY important that not only are you keeping active, but that you are out meeting peolpe. Im not talking about women to to date, but just PEOPLE and friends. People you can meet and hang out with without the umbrella of your marital situation hanging over you. Meeting new people that will know you as "Adam" and not "Adam and W" or whatever. Hitting the gym and getting back into painting are good starts to keep you active.....but they arent really going to necessarily fuel that self-esteem gain.
So are there hiking groups you can join? Or exercise classes you can join? Or art classes or meetups where you all paint something together or whatever. It doesnt really matter WHAT the activity is. It's just essential to get OUT there and do things for you.
Make yourself a priority.
Amoafwl is giving you good advice. I don't know that's it's necessary for me to respond to the questions you asked regarding my statements on the WW threads, but I'll do my best.
Originally Posted by Sandi2
That leads me to the second part. As the rejected party, the H cannot enable her in this terrible, disrespectful behavior. Every time he does, it will set him back. Before he can show her what a wonderful & improved H he wants to be, he has to prove what kind of man he is. All of this still comes under the heading of DBing.
Originally Posted by Wonka
For DBing to be successful, the LBH needs to come down HARD on the WAW because the emotional allure is like a powerful riptide tearing her and the M asunder.
Originally Posted by Wonka
2-LOSE YOUR FEAR of WAW. Reclaim your balls back from her purse.
3-Pull out the "not willing to live in an open M/no-OM boundary" script.
Well, that's a tall order. I don't know that I can do it in one post, unless you can be a little more specific about what you don't understand.
A lot of WW's are extremely manipulative. By the time the H comes to the board for help, his WW has usually stepped over several of the H's personal boundaries, and maybe even boundaries in the M. However, we find many H's filled with so much fear that they are paralyzed to stand up for themselves. They want to apply soft, sweet, bubble soap to the dirty WW situation......and it just doesn't get the job done. (Refer to my description of the WW mindset.) When he reads about men taking back their b@lls, he wants to pull out and find something that will tell him to buy her flowers, clean the toilets for her, have long talks by the fireside, and act like her BFF. Some guys don't even know what we mean by reclaiming his b@lls. They don't realize that when they have a WW, it's all about her loss of respect for him as a man/husband. The lack of respect has killed her desire/attraction for him. Until he gets her respect, none of that other stuff works to draw her desire for him as a man. He has to work on the respect factor, first. When dealing with a WW, that means he has to show her that she can't run over him. He's not going to be her doormat.
Some WW's bully the H. It may have started out in a more subtle manner after the wedding, but over time, it increased. Some WW's are spoiled. He was focused on trying to make her happy, and keeping the peace. It was all about her...
...to the point that he dreaded the possibility of her being upset or angry at him. So, he did everything he could to keep her satisfied. In the process, she took his b@lls, and now it may feel a little scary for him to think about taking back his b@lls. Why? B/c it requires him standing up for himself...
.which usually means standing up to her when she's disrespecting him. Calling her out when she shows disrespect toward him. Enforcing boundaries (which means she has some type of consequences due to her disrespect). He has to first respect himself as a man, before he can expect her to respect him.
It only means that the man starts acting like a man, instead of a scared little boy who has a angry mommy. It means the man enforces boundaries to protect his feelings, dignity, self-esteem, etc., from this person who is trying to tear him down and ruin their MR. It means he shows he has enough backbone to stand up and say he won't take that type of disrespect any longer. However, his actions speak louder than any vocal cords every could.
At the point where his WW is in an affair, it's like she is on drugs. He cannot reach her with some "soft" method he read in some book that tells how to put spark back into the MR in ten easy steps.
Things have progressed way, way past that point. Unfortunately, once a man has lost his W's respect, he can't nice it back again. He can't sweet talk back the respect, or do enough housework, etc. I wished it worked that way, but it doesn't. Even if a WW gives him a list of complaints as her reason for D...
.it's nothing but b.s. The true reason is that she doesn't feel in love with him. Some of those complaints might have been legit, back in the day, but now he could perfect everything on that list and it would not change her heart. She still would not respect him as a man. That's what I wish newcomer men would get through their heads. Forget housework being the secret to her heart. She wants you to act like a man who will not accept bad treatment from her or anyone else. She needs to admire you as a man.
Wonka is giving an example of a boundary. The boundary is, "I will not live in an open marriage". If that's your boundary, then don't be afraid to say it But, let me also add that if you are not prepared to back up your word, then be careful what you say. Some guys think by saying these words, it stops the WW from cheating. It doesn't. If she continues, then the ball is in his court. What's he going to do? If he continues staying in the MR, then he didn't enforce his boundary. See what I mean? He can't allow his fear of losing her dictate weak (or no) actions She has a choice to either honor his boundary and end the affair, or dishonor it and continue her affair. If she dishonors his boundary of not living in an open M, then the "action" is up to him to do. He either physically separates from her, or files for D. (NOTE: Don't share any of this with her. This is just for you.)
This is the ultimate example of enforcing a boundary. Enforcing means you stick to protecting your feelings. You can't control her actions, but you control what you do in response to her disrespect. You take the necessary steps to protect yourself from her actions/behavior again. It can't be some type of wimpy move. It has to have consequences for her. FWIW, that's why I don't agree with in-house separation, b/c it has all the benefits and no consequences for her. See what I mean? She's living under the same roof, but separated? How do you do that? In her viewpoint, she gets to do whatever she wants, plus you're suppose to continue playing the role of husband and happy family...
.until bedtime, then you go into your room, and she goes into hers. She benefits from the M and has no consequences for her affair, cheating, girls gone wild behavior, or whatever. In other words, she has your b@lls in a crunch...
.cause, whatcha gonna do?
When reading the guidelines for LBH's with a WW, you can skim over the replies from others (Hope that doesn't sound bad to say.) .....but please don't skim over my posts in those threads, b/c I tried to point out these things you are asking.
Yes I know I said too much but it also felt good to let her know I wasn't scared to lose her.
Just remember, actions work better than words when dealing with a WW. I'm glad if felt good to you, just realize you may have to back up your words. Words work as an emotional lever and gives us a temporary relief, but they aren't near as effective as action.
When she texts, not going to jump on it. Maybe not even respond like tonight when I was working out.
The point is not so much about ignoring her as it is about not allowing her texts to consume your time, thoughts, and energy. She didn't want in the MR, remember? Once she wants back in a loving MR, then you can focus more on texting. Until then, use two or three words for your response.....or an emojo. LBH's get so wordy! WW's use texting as way to keep the H emotionally attached. She'll send him photos of the kids, text him to ask how the kids are (as if he's not capable of caring for them), or just to temp check him about something. So, if you'll stick to using as few words as possible to answer her texts, I think it will help you get a better handle on it. You'll also start to see how she'll try to get that control back.
As for laundry, she still does mine.... I .. will.... tell... her
not... to...do...that... anymore /sadface. When it comes to buying meals or dinner, I might tell her no need.
I wouldn't go that far right now. Let's work this other stuff out, first. I mean, it's complicated enough living under the same roof.
I don't think you should jump up and leave the room every time she enters. It's your home, so try to be as comfortable as you can. I recommend you try to spend most evenings and weekends away from the house. Don't get all cozy with her on the couch, watching chick flicks. Know what I mean?
Definitely wont be catering to her but sometimes in the past we went out and she'd say I'm not bringing my wallet... is this the time to let her know we will be going dutch?
If you are separated, why are you going out together? See, this is one of those blurred lines when living in-house S, and the WW benefits from playing like one big happy family.
(In between typing this was also reading the WW series and the Reflections. I do have questions like in the past when she said, "I am wanting to go with my friend for the weekend to the company yearly golf event" if I said I don't agree with it and she insists, what can I do at that point besides trying to rationalize with her?
Let's look at a non-wayward, first. You need to understand that she's not asking for your permission. She's an adult, and unless she is asking you to pay for the expenses, keep the children, or something along those lines...
.then she really doesn't have to ask. Some non-wayward W's ask if it's alright, but that's a polite way of just checking with her H to let him know what she wants to do. Frankly, I don't think it's enough for him to just say he doesn't agree......especially if they are not having marital problems. What is he not agreeing with? If I were the W, I would appreciate knowing what he had a problem with. Had he made previous plans for that weekend? Did he not approve of my friend, or where we were going? See what I mean?
Now, if she is wayward and you suspect her of cheating, and suspect she might be going to meet OM...
..what can you do to stop it? You tell her you
don't agree? Then what? You don 't actually believe that will stop her, do you?
She wants for both of us to drive our boys to an out of town Christmas light show next week. I said sure thinking about the holidays may be the exception for family time.. Thanksgiving is coming up and we will be doing a small family get together. Are there posts on the best way to handle these events?
It's probably the most challenging time to be in an in-house separation. She's going to want to play happy family as though nothing has changed in the MR. It's my opinion that she needs to see that's not how it works. But, it's usually the H who has just as much trouble denying the WW these shared family moments...
.especially when it revolves around Thanksgiving and Christmastime.
When she was working from home on my computer the other day, she had her Citrix up and I saw the company email... go ahead and let her do her own thing and not care or is this where we put our foot down? This is the confusing part, We stop the disrespect if she says something, I get we challenge but what about the other stuff like the going out, the events? How do we come down hard regarding those things with her time and how/where/who she wants to spend it with?
Okay, first of all you are
separated! Now I don't know what you mean by putting your foot down, but usually it means you forbid something or you stop putting up with it one way or another. If you start telling her what she can and can't do...
..she will accuse you of trying to control her. And, she'll remind you that you're separated and it's none of your business what she does. If you feel disrespected, then what else can you do? Maybe you can think of something, but ultimately, you can physically separate, or get a divorce. The consequences need to fit the crime, so to speak.
My suggestion about something she does that makes you feel disrespected under your own roof, is to tell her you feel she is disrespecting you. Then tell her if she continues with the same behavior that you cannot continue living with her under the same roof. That's not meant as a threat. It is a boundary, and if she does not honor it, then one of you will be packing and leaving. If you can't stand behind it, then don't say it. Also, remember physical separation and divorce is the ultimate consequences you have to give. I'm not sure what you were talking about her having her Citrix up and the company email. What does that mean?
Sandi, didn't earlier you say get a schedule and we use that for things like this? Don't question her, don't do nothing about where she goes etc right? Is this coming down hard, meaning we can care less what she does? By showing her we don't care, she'll care?
The "coming down hard" that I talked about in the WW threads, is in regard to how/what a H should do when dealing with a WW. When she's verbally and overtly disrespecting him. And especially when he discovers she has been deceiving and betraying him, and is in an affair. But once you have separated in the M, then you are limited to what you can do. She's going to do whatever she wants, and if there are no consequences, then there's no skin off her back.
Are you separated or not? If you are, then act like a separated couple! Have a schedule, so you can plan ahead GAL activities. Show each other respect while staying together under the same roof. You don't care what she does in her personal time...
..but when she's there under the same roof with you, she has to be respectful. She can't talk to you like you are a dog, curse at you, make you the butt of a joke in front of others, or put you down in front of your kids, throw tantrums, etc. You know when people do things that are disrespectful. So, you surely know when she is not showing respect to you. But since you agreed to an in-house separation, I don't know if there were any stipulations about seeing other people, or her affair, or whatever. When a WW is in some type of an affair, an in-house separation does nothing to stop it.
So anyway, it's not about trying to control what she does. It's about treating one another with as much respect as you would give anyone else who was paying for room/board there. That's how you should treat her, and you should expect the same from her. If she can't show you at least that much respect, then tell her this arrangement is not working. If she doesn't try to do better, then you should probably physically separate or divorce.
But when it comes to words, we check the disrespect? Need more info on this, I think I asked above.... Need to know when we check her disrespect, what's appropriate and what is not, like what's over the top.
Verbal disrespect, and the types I named above, are never okay. No matter the living the arrangement, you don't put up with any of that cr@p from her, and especially in front of your kids. IMHO, it would be disrespectful for her to openly talk to OM in your presence. She should have the decency to go to her room, at least. I really think texting is very rude at the dinner table, especially when it's to OM...
but there's not much you can do, other than tell her to have the decency to go to her room if she's going to communicate with him. (Don't tell her in front of the kids.) As MWD says, choose your battles. You have to choose which hill to die on, sometimes. Sometimes you can just call her out about something.....and it takes care of it. Depending on what "it" is. If she is leaving the computer monitor open to something you find offensive, or inappropriate for the kids to see...
.and this is somewhere other than the privacy of her bedroom......then just tell her. When a WW is in the thick of an affair, she can get very careless.....b/c she isn't thinking normally.
Sorry for such a long post. I don't know if I addressed all your questions, but if not, you can ask again...
.if I didn't break the Internet.
Steve, you're right, the focus is not on them or what category they fit into since the most important thing is our well being. I'm putting more time into reading the stickies, finally got done with the boundaries, the WW series, and am starting to read other people's stories. I notice that many of the sitches sound very familiar, I am so sad about it but at the same time I am hopeful for many people. When I see the same advice given to other people, I want to see them succeed because I know it's sound advice. It resonates better when said to other people and takes a minute to sink in when we're the ones being told. It's like we can empathize with others and we identify quickly, but when we're told the same thing, we let all of our negative emotions get in the way.
Amoafwl, making myself a priority is pretty on point, and it's everything right now. There's a whole, wide world out there to still explore and be a part of. Even though I am going through this, I am happy. Since I started to open up here and get the support and not worry about the W, people have noticed me being happy more often. I get comments at work. People think I'm seeing/spending my time with someone, if only they knew it was you all, LOL. I think next step is joining the gym I went to on the weekend and seeing if they have a group there. I usually work out by myself at the gym at work. It would be nice to meet new people.
Sandi, I'm so amazed at the amount of time you take to really break things down. I never mind a good read.
If you are separated, why are you going out together? See, this is one of those blurred lines when living in-house S, and the WW benefits from playing like one big happy family.
We take the kids out to eat a lot. Don't know how to change this dynamic other than saying you can't go with us. We don't go anywhere together. We were going out to eat with her family all the time. Her brother and sister are close friends of mine as well. Knew them before meeting her. So we all go hang out a lot. One of her older brothers I would always play football with.
Are you separated or not? If you are, then act like a separated couple! Have a schedule, so you can plan ahead GAL activities. Show each other respect while staying together under the same roof. You don't care what she does in her personal time...
..but when she's there under the same roof with you, she has to be respectful. She can't talk to you like you are a dog, curse at you, make you the butt of a joke in front of others, or put you down in front of your kids, throw tantrums, etc. You know when people do things that are disrespectful.
We have a board up for that we jot down important dates on, to help coordinate with the kids. I've been trying to practice these runs in my head on what she would typically say that's bad or mean and disrespectful, like maybe tell my older son you're just like your dad if he's taking his time. Next time she says something like that I'm grabbing the stakes. She can get mean but she's not very confrontational... And we've never allowed that sort of disrespect in our house, not on that kind of level. I know she is disrespectful in her own right. I do know however that I need to be very careful in this perception, she may be very genuine in her disgust but just be very bad at insults. I mean, we got here to this point from that so seriously taking stock of it.
One day we ordered our son some food and went over to her brother's house for dinner, and she was looking through the bag and started to yell, I thought you ordered him some fries like really angry over some damn fries
then my son told her, mom it's there, its chili cheese fries. Then she dismisses it and says oh, nevermind. Her sister even commented on her being mean. I should have checked her on that and demanded some of those chili fries as well. This was after the BD. She's the type where she would make a quip under her breathe and I'm so bad at hearing, it's like a blessing around them...
I also want to add about D. Her older sister was going through a D and managed to stay very close to the XH when they were co-parenting their kids who are now in their teens. The sister would go on vacations with the XH and his wife to be with the kids. I truly think W thinks this will happen with us too. W and her siblings are all close, they gossip and talk about everything and everyone, even her brother, my close friend. I tend to ignore them all when it comes to that. They used to trash talk the XH and now it seems like I'm up since W tells me what they think of me when I'm not around like how I changed for the better, etc... I just don't do the cattiness... anyhoos, that's ranting.
IMHO, it would be disrespectful for her to openly talk to OM in your presence. She should have the decency to go to her room, at least. I really think texting is very rude at the dinner table, especially when it's to OM...
but there's not much you can do, other than tell her to have the decency to go to her room if she's going to communicate with him.
Before I sound like i am defending her, I know something is up. One day she was sitting in front on passenger side when I was driving about a month or so ago and I noticed this bruise on the inside of her thigh and called her out on it asking how she got that. It made her uncomfortable the whole day, she tried to cover it up... and later at a friends house she "accidentally" bumps into a low, much lower end table and she says something stupid like oh see this is how I get these bruises... I'm thinking, no I used to put them peach marks on you like that. It looked like a small clump of vericose veins popping if you ask me.
But yeah, she's not open about it , none of it. She is going to hide this forever because she can not be seen as the villain to her family for breaking up our M. Her mother and father have lived in separate rooms for decades because they did not believe in divorce and if her mother found out, she will never hear the end of it. She will never come clean and it's sad. She told me she didn't want to live like her mother and father. She once told me she wanted to move on with the next chapter in her life. I'm willing to try my damndest for the family and the kids' sake, but i don't know... as a man feeling like i have to put up with this.
Sometimes I wonder if it matters if i know or don't know who this person is... like if either one is better. So no, i don't have to at least deal with the in your face type stuff, and she has slept with the kids in the bed with her ever since she left to the other room so she is not going to expose them to some stranger.
There was one time recently I questioned her texting on her watch to someone but at the same time she was texting her family because I saw them responding coming through on the phone when my 6year old was watching her phone next to me. I could have easily grabbed it and checked the texts but I cant stoop that low, we were in a restaurant but i do say this, when i took my 6 year old to the restroom to wash his hands and he left the phone on the table, she was eyeing me the whole time. her seat has its back to the restroom so she turned herself around to watch me go inside the mens restroom. when the door closed i saw her still looking. its this kind of stuff that makes me want to do the tough love thing.
I'm dealing with this better and better each day. If I had the means I would be out somewhere else right now but since I have to be here for a while, I'm going to use it as practice and make the best of it. If i was away, I wouldn't be able to have this kind of opportunity to possibly turn her around and gain some respect.
Hi Adam,
A few pointers:
I tend to believe that with IHS 4 things happen:
- The one with the weakest character will lose
- The WWS can adjust the behaviour pattern until they reach the bare minimum necessary to sucker the LBS
- The WWS can continue to be WW and test how good they are at covering up
- The LBS never really moves on, gets a life or focuses on themselves as they are always checking with the WWS through the corner of their eyes.
Max
3 sticks out the most here. I'll do my best to let go and get a life. Get that swag back.
We take the kids out to eat a lot. Don't know how to change this dynamic other than saying you can't go with us. We don't go anywhere together. We were going out to eat with her family all the time. Her brother and sister are close friends of mine as well. Knew them before meeting her. So we all go hang out a lot. One of her older brothers I would always play football with.
What is the purpose of taking the kids out to eat a lot? Is it b/c it's faster/easier than cooking at home? I think you need to know "why" you were going out to eat as family all the time. Was she the one who encouraged it?
Word of caution about her brother and sister being close friends of yours...
...they are
her family. Until this M is dissolved or resolved, you should back off hanging out with them. I'm not saying you'll never be able to be friends again, but until later, it's best to not be all buddy-buddy with them. You cannot use them as confidants/counselors/mediators. They are
her family, not yours (no matter how close you feel to them). That applies to any of her friends outside of family. You don't need to confide in them how you feel, or your intentions, or what you would want if the M reconciled. Don't trust her friends. And, don't use her family members as a means to get to her. These type of situations can make family feel caught in the middle and have to choose sides.
I've been trying to practice these runs in my head on what she would typically say that's bad or mean and disrespectful, like maybe tell my older son you're just like your dad if he's taking his time. Next time she says something like that I'm grabbing the stakes.
That's a more subtle sign of disrespect (depending on "what" "is just like your dad") the tone of voice, etc. The first time you call her out, you can quietly tell her in private that it is inappropriate for a parent to put down the other parent to the child or in the child's presence. IMHO, you need to start with the more severe verbal signs of disrespect. Like, if she's screaming at you, trash talking, b'tching, calling you names, put downs, demanding/bossing, etc. (especially in front of the kids). Just remember, it goes both ways. If you need to call her out about something, don't do in front of the kids.
I know she is disrespectful in her own right. I do know however that I need to be very careful in this perception, she may be very genuine in her disgust but just be very bad at insults. I mean, we got here to this point from that so seriously taking stock of it.
Right, and even the nonconfrontational women have their unique ways of showing disrespect. You know her better than anyone, so whenever you see it......don't sweep it under the rug. "Disgust" is an accurate description of how most WW's feel toward their H. When I told one LBH this, he said I was being very harsh. But he could not grasp just how loathsome some WW's feel toward the H they no longer respect. I believe the degree/level of one WW is not the measurement for all WW's, however, all WW's do have some contempt. It's all a part of that mindset that started with resentment, disrespect, and rebellion......and now it's come to the surface and is more evident.
One day we ordered our son some food and went over to her brother's house for dinner, and she was looking through the bag and started to yell, I thought you ordered him some fries like really angry over some damn fries
then my son told her, mom it's there, its chili cheese fries. Then she dismisses it and says oh, nevermind. Her sister even commented on her being mean. I should have checked her on that and demanded some of those chili fries as well. This was after the BD. She's the type where she would make a quip under her breathe and I'm so bad at hearing, it's like a blessing around them...
I know the type. She has been allowed to act this way, without any consequences. People either ignored her bad behavior as best they could, or tried to appease her, calm her down, or whatever. But, it was no skin off her back (as the old saying goes). This type of behavior is a type of manipulation. It comes from being spoiled.....or a lot of anger issues. Until there is skin off her own back (some type of consequences for this type of bad behavior) she doesn't care and won't change. The longer this type has been allowed to explode and rant when some little something doesn't go to suit her...
...the tougher it is to "tame her" (so to speak). However, when she KNOWS the H is through with her tantrums (for real), it's just amazing how calm she can become, and hold her wretched tongue. Some WW's are like rebellious and unruly children.
I should have checked her on that and demanded some of those chili fries as well.
I hope you aren't serious! Demanding some of those chili fries is hardly a consequence for a grown woman throwing a fit.
The sister would go on vacations with the XH and his wife to be with the kids. I truly think W thinks this will happen with us too.
Then leave no doubt in her mind that that will never be the case if you split. Was the sister remarried? B/c I can't imagine the 2nd W being happy that the 1st W was along on the trip. That's being a little
too close, if you ask me.
I'm thinking, no I used to put them peach marks on you like that.
What are "peach marks"?
But yeah, she's not open about it , none of it. She is going to hide this forever because she can not be seen as the villain to her family for breaking up our M. Her mother and father have lived in separate rooms for decades because they did not believe in divorce and if her mother found out, she will never hear the end of it. She will never come clean and it's sad. She told me she didn't want to live like her mother and father. She once told me she wanted to move on with the next chapter in her life. I'm willing to try my damndest for the family and the kids' sake, but i don't know... as a man feeling like i have to put up with this.
How important is it, to you, that she comes clean to her family? I haven't seen many cases where the WW just volunteers that information to her family. She may give them the "version" she wants them to believe. However, it's up to you to not live in a way that compromises your own integrity. Just b/c you don't know the OM, or have proof in writing, doesn't mean you have to live as if she's pulled the wool over your eyes. She is well on her way of living out the role her parents set while she was growing up. You don't have to put up with living with a wayward W, for the kids' sake. They deserve to see a healthy, respectful M between their parents, and if that's not possible, then what's the next step?
Grabbing her phone away from her is not the kind of behavior I recommend.
Journaling:
Spending the morning typing away so it will be longwinded...
WEEKLY RECAP :
The week has been good. Minimal time spent between WW and I, and we were cordial and respectful during dinner time with the kids. Spent most of my week working, working out at the gym for about 2 hours, then rereading the stickies, just getting to understand all this information and apply what I can in my current situation at this time.
Two things stick out from the week that I wanted to share.
Thing 1:
There was one day when my older one got into trouble at school for a vulgar caption he and his friends wrote for Turkey Day. WW had him write an apology letter to the teachers, but he was still afraid of when I got home. WW is not the disciplinarian. I am. She's never spanked our boys. I was/am the enforcer.
I get home, 10 year old son tells me what happened and when I am talking to him, W interrupts trying to placate, saying she's already had him write an apology letter and took away certain privileges. I asked her to don't interrupt because its disrespectful while I am teaching our son.(I thought this was a good time to check her controlling behavior) I let my son know we both agree what he did was wrong but that we both also have our own ways of disciplining. if I felt something was really severe, then I'd need to spank him. I told him a couple of weeks ago not to say the G word and to be careful of saying derogatory things for various reasons. One because it's just plain wrong and two, because he doesn't know who can hear them and it could hurt someone's feelings.
S10 plays a lot of online games, plus one of his teenage cousins was openly posting things about his sexuality and is going through some things. W and I agree to embrace and love kids growing up no matter their preference. We want our son to respect differences. He doesn't know his cousin is finding himself and has a hard time dealing with a lot of issues right now. This is the kid whose mom got the divorce and was acting like she was still part of the family going on vacations with the ex-husband and his wife.
I used my son's negative behavior to address something, getting caught. I asked my son what he was thinking in front of my wife. He wasn't sure what angle I was coming from. I asked him if he thought the punishment fit the crime. I asked if he thought about the consequences. He stumbled. I said, did you think you were going to write an apology letter or that I would spank you. He didn't say anything. I asked to make sure he understood, did you think of how bad the consequences would be when you wrote what you did? I said most likely you were not expecting to get caught. Someone else who did the right thing reported you and you can not get mad at that person for doing the right thing. I asked if he knew what he was doing was wrong and he said yes but he was pressured by the other kids, the peer pressure. I told him to never allow other people to influence him to do something against his morals, his beliefs.
I also took this opportunity to share with my wife another incident, the night before when she was asleep, where his online friend tried to scam him. I rehashed the incident to her letting her know he was afraid to accept his friend was scamming/lied to him and that we proved it was a scam so we took action to ban the friend and never talk to him again. I told my son to believe his gut instinct and that there will always be people in life who will lie. The point I told him between the two is that there are people who will influence him in a negative way and there are ones who will prey on him and in both he knew better and just needs to follow what is right even though it can be very tough either case.
After I disciplined my son in the other room, I talked to him, asked if he had any questions about what happened, and we hugged it out and we said we loved each other. He understood why what happened, happened. Sometimes my W doesn't agree or understand why I tell my son I love him and hug him afterwards. She says he needs time to process. She's never in the room with I discipline our son. She said that I say I love him and hug him because -I- needed it, not him. Although she was right in that it helped me too, I did that also for him to let him know I wasn't angry. I feel like she would rather not say anything, than take the extra step.
Later when he fell asleep, she asked me what I thought about the drawing and what he wrote. He had written some other stuff that was not appropriate for his age and she was concerned, I said because he games with older kids, he's exposed to that kind of talk. He and I had a rule if he learned something bad, he should not repeat it, let it be a lesson in what NOT to do or say. We cant shelter him forever but we can guide him , steer him right. I can't believe this though. She said yeah and he has to do better in not getting caught. She honestly said that at a time like this. I can understand if we were on mutual ground, on better terms between us as loving parents and all but she lost her mind.
I didn't want to say yeah don't get caught cheating like his mother is trying to do, like mother like son...but i guess she heard her words and dropped it. I mean I get it, its like if you help your friend with the answers right, you don't want to get caught for trying to do what you thought was right but was wrong OPPOSED to just all wrong.
Then W asked if the double entendre was meant for her. I said, we're adults trying to teach our son what's right and wrong and either said something or asked about what she may have seen from it. I think what i told her was that when it comes to right and wrong, we know as adults what that is, and it can be applied to adults just as to children but it was directed to him. Her face was contorted like she was wanting to burst. If I had to be honest, I was a bit passive aggressive I think, but I'm not too keen on that behavior. Someone let me know if that's right. I will say this, I know better than to keep throwing stuff in her face. I feel like that's abuse, emotional abuse and she is so conflicted, I feel pity for the person. Still no right to do what she is doing, but as a human and mother of my children, I have compassion for her. There's this part of me that keeps on wanting to say "you know i know what you did, that you're cheating on me right?!?" as if that would get some type of response that I want. "I alrdy peeped this game." That doesn't work and will not work. She knows and if I do anything more it will just be me degrading myself. I am definitely better than that.
Thing 2:
The other thing deals with this weekend and our commitments. We are taking our little one to 2 birthday parties one for her side of the family and one for my friend's daughter's bday.(As I'm typing this, they have come to the study several times, my S6, his cousin, and her. I told her I'm not going to the first bday party for her side of the family, change of plans since she said its no problem and we can go to my friend's party later, I want to blog.... get away from her, have been in the house with her all morning, in separate rooms of course but she ins trying to temp check several times.. even once poked my leg with the little one and then came running in here with the little one spanking me on the butt. Oh how we used to have playful times with the 6 year old doing that. And oh how deceitful to think we're still the same big, happy family. She also been hearing me type and checking my monitor when she's been in here. Got this up on one browser and another browser up when she comes in. I haven't set a boundary for space yet since it's not like she's trying to get physical, if she does that then yeah, I'd clearly address it then.)
Later that same night, after my older one went to bed, I asked her if there were any rules we should have or wanted to discuss in talking about our separation to our friends in a group environment. She was a little startled that I asked. I told her I was asking because I respected her enough to have her input. She had said something, wish I could remember and I commented on the fact that she took her ring off and was comfortable to let everyone know then, and that I had to apologize for asking her to put it back on until after the divorce. I told her I should not have asked her to do that and wanted to know if she was ready to tell our friends. I was okay either way. ( I felt like I was being respectful in letting her know in our given situation very specific on what was to come and not talking in what ifs or hypotheticals, that I was okay in letting them know we are heading towards divorce and that I am okay with it so that she can see I'm not scared or hiding, to release that control from her (that's how I see it in my mind anyhows, that by being secretive of our situation to others I don't want it to happen so as long as we keep it undercovers, she still has some sort of control over the situation.) Your thoughts on this?
The first thing she said is that she is not ready for the divorce and she knows she needs to sort things out. I was quiet and said okay. okay. She commented on my change in behavior and said she liked it. I told her all these things she sees me doing was preparing myself for when she and the kids are no longer around. Her face was all over the place that night like trying to figure me out. I also told her I apologized for how I was in the beginning, for being weak and trying to tell her what she could or could not do, by trying t control her. She said it felt that way.
I now remember that I did ask her to promise one thing that if she was cheating to wait until we have a divorce. I think I said this the night after the BD. She said she wasn't cheating but okay she'd promise. So back to current talk, she has in her head this timeline of when the house will be ready that she is finding herself until then and when the house is ready she will see if she can forgive me for not trusting her. wait a minute... I almost laughed. I told her we both have things we need to think about now. She asked what do you mean, i didn't want to point blank say hey i know you are cheating on me and haven't said with who or when or provided details, but i know(i pretty much said this in a previous convo with her so no need to keep bringing it up)...so in a round about way, I said there are things that have lead to this moment, seeds planted by both of us that have grown into this thing that has split us. She said she knows her communication was one of the issues, I did take that opportunity to say we can say that that is the tip of the iceberg and that there is a lot of underlying issues to that. She agreed. Instead of validating that night, we both found ourselves agreeing to what the other was saying in a respectful way. So back to the original question, we both agreed we can tell whoever whatever we want, but 1 on 1 is best. Just putting everything out there to announce to everyone was bad form. I ended the conversation and went to the MBR and locked the door.
Weekend:
Today I feel like I am on both sides of the seesaw, up and down. I was reading a post that made me wonder if there were multiple AP. I thought about my sitch and how I would feel. I thought of my past experiences in life, growing up as a devout Christian boy who wasn't short of his mistakes in life, growing into a young man, navigating the unknown, having all the wrong kinds of influences in my life. I made my own mistakes, I wasn't always faithful to one person. I thought I was young and experiencing life and that the outcome didn't matter to me or the other person. There was a time when I was dating that I had moved out to be by myself, I told her that I wanted a break, unsure of what I wanted, to experience what it would be like to be away from my then GF who is my W now. I imagine, I was feeling all she is feeling now. I had done what she is doing now. She gave me space, I moved out. She didn't force anything. We were cordial. We were around each other enough to still leave some type of imprint. She got me back not by pursuing but by being my friend. I had to stop my wicked ways. When we got married I vowed to never allow myself to be this old me, part of that old me she was very much attracted to. I gained what I called the daddy weight. I lost sight of the person I was for reasons of my own not realizing she was attracted to THAT guy and what I was replacing it with, a charming, loving father and a normal every day working guy that's "just there" (maybe) as a husband is not what she wants.
I remember early in the year the Bumble app was on all our i-devices. We were at her sister's house. Someone downloaded the dating app. I thought it wasn't me, my son told W that it was on his ipad. She said it wasn't her. We checked and its on my iPhone. i remember getting so much flak from everyone... I remember downloading stuff that day but not that app. Today this morning i thought about what if she's seeing other people through a dating app, it works by swiping back and forth, what if she downloaded it. So much stuff went through my mind and i wonder how I would handle it. So instead of not caring, I check the download source and sure enough I was the one who did it, but while checking that, the day after BD, the day after i told her i logged into her text messages and saw she told someone it was over, she installs SKYPE. she said something before about it like oh its for work. we use it a lot etc etc. She doesn't know I know she downloaded it after BD so i cant track her talking to whomever. This is earlier today, I look at her the same. i try to keep my distance as much as possible, I try to be respectful. I'm working with what i got in the best way i know how. I've let the thoughts cross my mind that it could be the worst, what if it is, does it change anything... no.
I need help with boundaries. I think there is little I can provide. That night when we did talk about our son getting into trouble, setting rules, I told her that I have to look out for myself and that I would hope she has enough respect that if she was to text someone that it's not in my presence or with the kids or I would leave. This is before I knew of the skype being downloaded specifically as a means for her to talk to whoever. I knew it was available for her to use but i thought she could have been texting too maybe... i think i scared her into not texting when i said something about contesting a divorce if she did go through with it. I'm apparently helping her make sure her cheating game is wrapped tight.
In my in house separation sitch, is there much more I can do with setting boundaries if we don't argue much, if she's not saying disrespectful things and not doing anything in my face... i know its "under my nose" but for the time being, I'm working on other stuff and was just curious if there should be other boundaries that I'm being oblivious to. I don't want to set boundaries to just trying to set boundaries.
is there anything i can do about future conversations when she tries to deceive me and say nothing happened? What would a boundary like that look like? i want to try creating one that works for me, because of her lies.
If she says, well i am angry that i cant trust you that you think i would cheat on you.
Instead of listing items off the checklist saying these are clear examples and enough for me to go on, what can i say? Should it start like, " i know you are having an affair and every time you lie to deceive me, i feel like we are not ??
I don't know
i feel like if that comes up, i should just shut up, maybe agree with her that or marriage wont work under these circumstances and not get into all that. just leave. she lies, she deceives, i leave or end the convo.
What is the purpose of taking the kids out to eat a lot? Is it b/c it's faster/easier than cooking at home? I think you need to know "why" you were going out to eat as family all the time. Was she the one who encouraged it?
We've eaten out or ordered in about 5 out of 7 days for the last 15 years. We both barely know how to cook. As she made more money, she was able to go the quick and easy route. If she did make something to eat, she would buy all prechopped veggies. I'd grill food from maybe a couple times a week down to once every couple months now.
Word of caution about her brother and sister being close friends of yours...
...they are her family. Until this M is dissolved or resolved, you should back off hanging out with them. I'm not saying you'll never be able to be friends again, but until later, it's best to not be all buddy-buddy with them.
I totally agree. I don't trust them. I don't like the cattiness. I teach my son blood is thicker than water so I know.
bruises on leg because she can bruise like a peach. easy to bruise on inner thigh, sometimes from rough "play"
i saw a bruise the other day on the inside upper thigh and thought she could have had a PA. Just coming to terms with it and sharing. Putting it out there and seeing how I react and handle it.
as for coming clean to her family, its not that important. I thought it would be, maybe because I felt that any honesty would some sort of semblance of the person I once knew but I know better...
I hope you aren't serious! Demanding some of those chili fries is hardly a consequence for a grown woman throwing a fit.
Yes, I was kidding.
I have to add, when I was breaking all the rules in the first two months after BD, I was also standing up for myself. I hadn't realized this important piece until now, reflecting back.
When you talked about not allowing the WW to disrespect, I was thinking of verbal spats, but we had texted a lot and she would say something negative and because I was angry I wasn't going to shut up. She would try to say I was bad in doing this or that or say I wasn't a good father, I would say wait a damn minute, maybe you can say I didn't take out the trash as fast as you wanted, but I know I was a damn good father to the boys. She would later say yes I am sorry, you were/are. I was just angry and not thinking right. Can you forgive me or chalk this up to a bad day. Oh how I put ALL of that into one big mess of us "just arguing" and breaking rules but now I see why she hasn't really been that way verbally lately. I was waiting for this phase or thing to happen in regular conversation. We did go through that in texts. That's when we said to let it chill, the texting... because she would say something and then I would say something. I hope this helps
be the rock, detach, distance as much as possible, be respectful, do things for myself and for the kids, GAL... and expect nothing.
Daily journaling
Last night I went through my old texts to my W and I saw how bad it was. I am so ashame at how much a$$kissing I had done in being nice, then angry, then super nice catering to her, yes dear, anything you say, I will always love you. We can work this out, then its all your damn fault, explicitive explicitive. Then back to sure, I can do this or help with that... anything you say love... So unstable, so much like her, so embarrassing. There were some good points made but I see how they can get lost, especially to a confused WW.
After I read my texts, I went back to read the rules, each one... trying to remember them, knowing I wont, that itll take a lot of time. But I know where theyre at and Ill refer to them often.
Yesterday, W, S6, his cousin6, and I went to my friends daughters bday party. Shes also 6. W was outside mostly away from everyone, and we kept our distance. I mingled, didnt bring anything up. It was good for the kids. We left there to meet up with my siblings for dinner. 1 brother kinda knows of our sitch, but the others there didnt. W sits next to me( which she hardly ever does), talks to them about the house, were all talking like one big, happy family. My siblings have known W all their lives. I think one point she slips and calls me baby. Trust me, in one, out the other. It was a nice dinner. It was easier to not bring up messy stuff ... not the time.
During the trip from the bday party to dinner, W gets a text from the guy who usually texts her at work more than anyone else Ive seen. I thought this was from her sister who she was also texting, MyS10 is on a holiday trip with the sister and they recently landed at their destination so I asked if it was the sister. W tells me its that guy and theres a work problem so she has to call the terminal to get some info and texts him back. No big deal. I let it go. Hes a client. Cant think much of it, or else I would be sabotaging my own happiness.
When I found out about the Skype being downloaded the day after BD, I assumed ... well let me take that back. When I heard W say she was in a meeting on BD day, she mentioned it was with the female friend who was with the client and also her bosss boss, who is a guy. Her boss, who is a female, had went out of town that week and this was supposed to be the trip she was going to go on. So the day she went on this last minute meeting, her text logs didnt show this guys texts. Im assuming OM could be someone in her building at work like her bosss boss. The day of BD when I went to pick up the kids she texted a different number saying its over. This is to someone else other than the guy who has been texting her at work. She said this was to a female friend, an older lady, the person she supposedly confided in the day of BD. There have been times when I wanted to call that number from her phone to see if a guy picks up. It crossed my mind today and I bounce the idea around thinking what good will it do me. Going back to the Skype ... I assume now that it could be a situation where its someone in a higher position like her bosss boss. She had made several comments in the past about him that seemed off, like all management there help to groom and promote,Ive met some of them in the past, the older guys. Her boss has taken her under her wing and is looking out for her, but when W refers to this guy, she downplays things like oh he doesnt care. Hes the type that will let you walk to your car alone when the older guys will walk you.
My mind has thoughts of everything, one person, multiple people, her living out this fantasy between windows of time at work... shes got a couple of family members, one who sits right in front of her, at work and she has also recently gotten an older brother to work there too. So not only am I dealing with her deception but I am feeling like theres some betrayal from her family as well.... the sister in law was the one who said in my original post she didnt know where my W was and said she put her phone on silent. Very, very suspicious. I have to accept that this line of thinking is very destructive. So what if alll of it is true. How strong am I is the question. How much do I want the other person happy, both of us happy and what will that require? Above that, how far or what lengths will I go to make my kids happy?
I saved copies of the texts from that day, a copy of the number she texted that day, also a snapshot of her downloading Skype the day after and am only doing this because I will be seeking legal advice soon. I am getting a list of local attorneys who might be able to speak to me during the weekend, my schedule is tough to work around on weekdays so it feels limiting. Other than that, I have no interest to hire a PI but that may be the only way I get concrete evidence,but if I did, what good would that do me besides making myself feel worse. Does being right about something mean it will feel good?
Today, I got rdy to meet my siblings for lunch,went out for that while W went to her family stuff with the kids. A brother had passed on Thanksgiving so that side of the family usually has something going on to commemorate him every year. I told her I wasnt going this year when she asked. I may have been crass in the reason since theyre a different religion than I am and it was Sunday mass.
This Christmas I dont know how to handle being with her side of the family because her dad passed away on Christmas Day. Is this really the time to go ba11$ to the wall and distancing myself from her and her family? I can tell her we can do Christmas for the kids but I dont feel like this will be the right time to be with her side of the family considering we are separated. Your thoughts?
Going back to last night, after we left the birthday party my son saw Christmas lights up and asked how early could we put them up. He and W got excited and got to talking about putting them up early. She asked me. I said what do you mean, she said come on, he seems to want to put them up for Christmas and we cant break Christmas tradition. I was kind of cold saying, look at our situation right now, we kind of are breaking tradition. You may want to consider starting to put them up. She got quiet... but later thats when her work boyfriend texted her about some issue she had to call in from my prior paragraph.
Im all over the place....so back to today, after I had lunch with the familia, I sat in the car while it was raining reading DR. Had jumped to the infidelity section from one of the other chapters. Was able to read that for a while. Went shopping, then went back to the car, drove around to kill time and parked at a park to read more in the rain. Overall a nice day. Came home, hugged the little one, talked to W a little bit and shes casually reading another smut book in the living room, even took her iPad to read and eat with the kids. I almost have the nerve to say not around the kids. Is this a crazy boundary saying if she reads those books around them I would have to ask her to leave the room or remove the kids from her presence?
First glance it wasnt an issue but when I think about our sitch, its kinda gross... she will then ask for reasons if I confront her on why I am drawing this line. Will I need to lay down the framework and explain everything to her? Shes going to say she is not doing anything. To refute that and substantiate the reason for my boundary, I may have to show my half empty hand, discuss her behaviors and let her know of the Skype and her attempts at deception and that while I dont know who it is, I know whats going on and reading these types of books in front of the kids is inappropriate and they shouldnt be around when these books feed into this fantasy of her affair.
Pick another battle? The kids dont know anything... its just that I do, and its not like this is the worst of whats going on, its her deception. I feel like I am trying to do something just to do something. After putting it out here, typing it out, I feel better. I can now go and have dinner with the family. Woooosah.
Be the rock, be respectful, distance myself as much as possible, expect nothing.
For Thanksgiving we're having a small get together at my house with her mom and sisters and sister fiancι who know we separated except the mom. I don't know how I want to handle this... if something comes up and I go to the room and not engage in this family time I may get called out on it and the thought has crossed my mind to say but we're separated because of your infidelity.
Friday, her brother is having thanksgiving at his house for all their side of the family, cousins etc. thinking about politely telling her I am going to skip that. Trying to work out how I should be with that conversation.
Someone check me pls. I don't want to be a butt at my place and at the same time don't want to be fake about anything. I want to hold it all in, speak to a lawyer, find out what my best option is, hang in there until we separate and then deal with the physical separation. I want to show myself I can change to be a better person and not be petty and be vindictive. I can't wait for that stuffing...
No sense in airing the dirty laundry in front of the family. Oh I busted that week one after BD and have been paying for it ever since. I feel bad but not really because I was accused by her family of breaking us up and I did what I had to.
But I would not recommend it unless you are ready to dig out of the hole for a while. And she might not get over it.
It seems to me that you are still basing your decisions on what you think her reactions will be to what you do. If you want to eat stuffing and you think you can handle it (i.e. go with no expectations), then do it. Otherwise don't. I KNOW how difficult it is to do but you just have to give it your best effort and step back from making reactive decisions based on your emotions. Also...I would not out her to anyone...especially if you are hoping for reconciliation one day. It also makes you the problem and puts you in between her and her conscience. Just my opinion...for what it is worth.
Thank you Lost and DejaVu for the support, it's what I need to hear and what my conscience has been telling me but there is that other side I have to control. It felt good to type it out to let that part go. I hope to one day reconcile whatever that looks like. Taking it day by day working with my current emotions. Have to release the negative vibes and not hold them in or direct them to her. Thanks again
So what if alll of it is true. How strong am I is the question.
Can you paint a picture for me, in what type of actions would show your strength?
How much do I want the other person happy, both of us happy and what will that require?
The other person? Are you referring to the OM? Why should you care if he's happy or not?
Above that, how far or what lengths will I go to make my kids happy?
Perhaps I am not understanding you here. You can't make another person happy. We are all responsible for our own happiness. As for as to what lengths you would go to make your kids
happy, you may need to rethink it. Living a life of integrity and teaching those values to your children; giving them as much stability and safe environment as possible; and showing them they are loved...
.these are the things parents need to do.
What is your plan of action going forward?
I have no interest to hire a PI but that may be the only way I get concrete evidence,but if I did, what good would that do me besides making myself feel worse. Does being right about something mean it will feel good?
Not necessarily. Look, life isn't always about how something feels. You either live honestly by certain standards and values, or you don't. If you don't know what those standards and values are...
.then you'll likely live by emotions, which can be very fickle. If finding out the truth makes no difference in your plan of action, then hiring a PI makes no sense. If it's a deal breaker for your W to have an affair, then you may want to consider it. I'm not saying what you need to do, b/c that's up to you.
This Christmas I dont know how to handle being with her side of the family because her dad passed away on Christmas Day. Is this really the time to go ba11$ to the wall and distancing myself from her and her family?
Well first of all, I don't suggest you wait until Christmas Day to demonstrate you've grown some b@lls (if that's what you are saying in this quote). What I see is someone who is finding excuses. What does her father's passing have to do with your separation and your plans for Christmas Day? You can send a poinsettia with a sweet card to her mother that says you are thinking of the family.
She asked me. I said what do you mean, she said come on, he seems to want to put them up for Christmas and we cant break Christmas tradition. I was kind of cold saying, look at our situation right now, we kind of are breaking tradition. You may want to consider starting to put them up. She got quiet... but later thats when her work boyfriend texted her about some issue she had to call in from my prior paragraph.
Like many guys who have NGS, you seem to have trouble knowing how to stay balanced in some of these issues. What you said to your W was okay, in making a point that things will not be normalized. You just have to be careful that you don't rob the kids of all their Christmas joy, when it's your W that you are wanting to feel the affects of her actions. Make sense? Yes, it's very difficult to go through the holidays in this type of situation. But guess what? After Christmas comes another holiday, then another, and another.
Is this a crazy boundary saying if she reads those books around them I would have to ask her to leave the room or remove the kids from her presence?
Although I get it, I just don't think it is one you can enforce. I don't know what the kids actually see, but it sounds more like this is an irritation to
you and you want to make it a boundary. I don't think it will work. I mean, so you ask her to leave, and she says "No"...
.then what? You going to fight with the kids to keep them removed from her presence while she reads a book? How long do you think that would last?
First glance it wasnt an issue but when I think about our sitch, its kinda gross... she will then ask for reasons if I confront her on why I am drawing this line. Will I need to lay down the framework and explain everything to her? Shes going to say she is not doing anything. To refute that and substantiate the reason for my boundary, I may have to show my half empty hand, discuss her behaviors and let her know of the Skype and her attempts at deception and that while I dont know who it is, I know whats going on and reading these types of books in front of the kids is inappropriate and they shouldnt be around when these books feed into this fantasy of her affair.
So bottom line is it's the affair that is eating at you. I don't think you understand boundaries well enough yet. Maybe you need to read the thread on boundaries again. The purpose is not to control what she does. And the way I see it, you are using the kids as your excuse to "draw the line" about the books she reads. It will lead to an argument that you won't win. Setting and enforcing boundaries have nothing to do with confronting, reasoning, explaining, discussing, or arguing. Boundaries are not battles.
Sandi, as always, I appreciate your responses. You're helping me navigate through my emotions on this roller coaster ride. Sometimes I would like to think I am in control of myself, that I am this great guy who has a handle on things when in truth, its a little scary that I don't. There are times when I know better, but I still feel a certain way and instead of balling it up inside, I come here to release, to let go. I'm learning to put it here and listen as you give advice and criticism to help prevent further mistakes in the future. I'm a work in progress when it comes to not being a repeat offender.
Can you paint a picture for me, in what type of actions would show your strength?
I'll try... You're question was in response to
I have to accept that this line of thinking is very destructive. So what if alll of it is true. How strong am I is the question.
I was saying that it's easy to get caught up in all the mess wondering who it is, how many, who all knew, that sort of thing, all the details.
How Strong am I and what does that mean? To Me, being strong is like being the rock, the lighthouse, someone with the fortitude to endure, someone who can forgive and accept.
Being strong in a time like this to me means being smart about it, being patient, being forgiving, and being accepting.
By being smart, I mean learning, learn the techniques, learn when to bite my tongue, when I should set boundaries and protect myself, also learning about myself and her, the WW...I'm on this journey to discover who this new me is; I've never been tested like this so I am not really sure what I will or will not do, I'd like to say I think I have an idea of who I am as a person. Actions are reading, coming here, communicating, being vulnerable, open, honest and be willing to listen and take advice. knowing when to implement the right actions at the right time. I need to also learn what got me here in the first place and work to better myself. I need to control my anger, play it smart, cool. There is a lot of discovery to be had.
By being patient, I need to learn how to refrain from being triggered/emotional and responding or reacting in an irrational way. I need to allow time to take its course, not push, not expect something for my efforts, I need to not let emotion cloud my judgement or logical thinking. I shouldn't let this affect my health, my work, my relationships with other people like my kids. I need to allow her to make her mistakes and be accountable for them. I need to detach and GAL. I need to allow myself and her to go on this journey and make our mistakes. Learn from it and keep going.
I want to forgive her, I want to love her unconditionally, to not control her. I don't want to play the blame game with her. I need to understand this is a process and not a band aid. I should know forgiveness is letting go, it doesn't change who she is. I can't change who she is.
I need to accept that I can not change her, only myself. I need to accept that no matter what I do or however long it takes, there is no guarantee she will come back to me. Being strong is being okay with this.
The other person? Are you referring to the OM? Why should you care if he's happy or not?
Was referring to W. I feel a certain way about predators/OM. I want W happy so why not throw in the towel and give her what she wants. When I say that, I'm going off emotion again.
What is your plan of action going forward?
Good question, read about making a list of action items with the kids for every time I spent doing something with them. Making sure to stay positive, being around, helping with homework, bathing, tucking in. Waking up, helping get rdy for school, playing games, spending quality time together, teaching, getting food or cooking, watching tv together, reading together, play basketball, not yelling, no arguing, maintaining structure and being a loving parent setting aside our situation and not exposing them to it. communicating, taking the time to talk to them, ask them questions. Listen. When my little one isn't feeling good, he comes to me, I hold him and ask what's wrong. He's always been able to tell me and we talk it out and he eventually feels better. Trying not to stray from what we've been doing before. When W and I talk about the kids, we are on same page. We have same values.
When W and I talk about other things, our values have shifted.
If finding out the truth makes no difference in your plan of action, then hiring a PI makes no sense
Yup, my plan is to use this 7 months to 180, work on me physically and emotionally. I want to take opportunities by living together to shut down the disrespect. I also want to show W how upbeat and outgoing I am by actually being upbeat and outgoing. I want to care less if she is with someone else, I want to detach successfully. I am doing as much LRT as I can. Going out when she's home, working out late. Giving her space, not following her or texting.
Well first of all, I don't suggest you wait until Christmas Day to demonstrate you've grown some b@lls (if that's what you are saying in this quote). What I see is someone who is finding excuses
lol, sorry that's not what it means, just means going all out. I've been distancing myself from her and calling off going with her to her family's for dinner, not replying back to statements via texts, haven't gone with her to a bday party on her side and didn't go to mass for her deceased brother or the family gathering afterwards. This Friday for Thanksgiving I plan to not go to dinner on her family's side.
I come home, help with the kids, and once they're good for bed, I get to the MBR and lock the door.
I'm inclined this Thanksgiving to eat with the family and my kids and once done, I might go visit a brother of mine in town. She can stay with her mom and sisters at the house.
For Christmas I should have added that they will have mass and go to visit the burial site and have a get together for the family. I don't plan to go to any of that. Only thing I plan to do is see what to get for the kids and if we are having lunch at our place. getting flowers for the mom would be going overboard.
Like many guys who have NGS, you seem to have trouble knowing how to stay balanced in some of these issues.
but it sounds more like this is an irritation to you and you want to make it a boundary.
So bottom line is it's the affair that is eating at you. I don't think you understand boundaries well enough yet. Maybe you need to read the thread on boundaries again. The purpose is not to control what she does
Yes, I do have problems and I hope you can help me point them out and resolve them. You are very right that I was irritated about the affair. Was ranting... I'm not afraid to keep putting everything out there so the earlier the better in helping me with the advice and your insight. There will be times when I'm posting how I feel but I know it goes against conventional wisdom. I don't mind being called out on it. Then there will be times my mind is in a haze.
After I ranted about the boundaries I typed this. I know its not about controlling her, its protecting my feelings, but it doesn't stop me from thinking those crazy thoughts or having those crazy feelings.
I feel like I am trying to do something just to do something. After putting it out here, typing it out, I feel better.
There are times when I know better, but I still feel a certain way and instead of balling it up inside, I come here to release, to let go. I'm learning to put it here and listen as you give advice and criticism to help prevent further mistakes in the future. I'm a work in progress when it comes to not being a repeat offender.
That's exactly what we want you to do. I'm glad you have this attitude.
I appreciate you taking the time for a more detailed explanation of your idea of what being strong means. You were able to share how you think and how you view your position.
I want to forgive her, I want to love her unconditionally, to not control her. I don't want to play the blame game with her. I need to understand this is a process and not a band aid. I should know forgiveness is letting go, it doesn't change who she is. I can't change who she is.
I just want to share some thoughts about this. Forgiveness is a must in any MR, however, it should not be a pass for her to
continue doing it. Spouses become lazy and start taking each other for granted, and this is just one of the areas. They get careless how they treat the other spouse, b/c they feel certain they will be overlooked/forgiven. Forgiveness is letting go of the offense and moving forward. It is not giving permission to do it again. It is not approval.
I suppose everyone has an opinion about unconditional love. The nearest thing I think we experience it, is loving our children. I don't know if two spouses are capable of unconditionally loving each other......b/c that is a different type of love, than the love for our kids. To me, it sounds like we're saying there is absolutely nothing they can do that would stop us from loving them. They can do whatever they want to us, or be the worst person on earth, and we'll still love them. Maybe in a general sense, or as some call it.....
Christian love, b/c you don't want to see their soul go to hell. But that love between a man and wife and how their actions affect the relationship? Like I said, I can see it in a parent - child relationship, but it's difficult for me to think about loving a spouse,
regardless of what he does. I'm not going to stick around and be abused in the name of "unconditional love". But, that's just me.
You can't control her, I agree. You can't control who she is. However, you don't have to
accept her bad treatment. Big difference! Here's the thing, I get a little nervous when I see a nice guy talking about forgiveness, unconditional love, etc. pretty early in the sitch. I want him to feel a little anger. Not violence, but get a little mad about what she's done! I don't want him to think he has to
tolerate being mistreated. Okay, so you love her, maybe you'll love her forever...
.but you might have to do it from a distance if she doesn't treat you better. Know what I mean? Knowing how to separate and balance some of these issues is so important. I may go too far in the other direction, trying to illustrate a point, but I hope you can figure out what I'm trying to say. Just don't stick your head in the sand and call it something else. ((hugs))
Originally Posted by Sandi2
What is your plan of action going forward?
Good question, read about making a list of action items with the kids for every time I spent doing something with them. Making sure to stay positive, being around, helping with homework, bathing, tucking in. Waking up, helping get rdy for school, playing games, spending quality time together, teaching, getting food or cooking, watching tv together, reading together, play basketball, not yelling, no arguing, maintaining structure and being a loving parent setting aside our situation and not exposing them to it. communicating, taking the time to talk to them, ask them questions. Listen. When my little one isn't feeling good, he comes to me, I hold him and ask what's wrong. He's always been able to tell me and we talk it out and he eventually feels better. Trying not to stray from what we've been doing before. When W and I talk about the kids, we are on same page. We have same values.
Except for the last two sentences, this mostly sounds like a plan of action toward parenting your kids. Maybe I should have been more specific. That's not to say what you've written was a waste of time, b/c reading it every day could help keep you focused on these areas. But now, let me get a little more realistic with you. Maybe you and W use to be on the same page about the kids, and maybe you use to have the same values...
..but if she's cheating, then I dare say some of that is going to be challenged. The reason I say this is b/c she has compromised her value system, and it overflows into all areas of her life. What use to be a definite, has become a maybe for her.
Yup, my plan is to use this 7 months to 180, work on me physically and emotionally. I want to take opportunities by living together to shut down the disrespect. I also want to show W how upbeat and outgoing I am by actually being upbeat and outgoing. I want to care less if she is with someone else, I want to detach successfully. I am doing as much LRT as I can. Going out when she's home, working out late. Giving her space, not following her or texting.
Okay, this is a start in what I meant as a plan of action. Now, let's break this down a little more, okay? First, let me caution of you about the whole "working on you" idea. Making these changes will help improve your life emotionally and physically. It may, or may not, work in saving your MR. I'm just being painfully honest with you. Some men have reported making wonderful self improvements, even the WW would say she noticed...
.but it did not change her mind about ending the MR. I just think it takes more, for some WW's (but we will talk about it as we go). Two things are for certain, however. One, you won't lose anything more than you would by
not following this plan, and two, you will be so much better prepared to face a new chapter b/c you of the 7 months of training to become the best version of Adam.
Sandi, thanks for the reply.
Can I be frank? I'm clueless on what a good plan of action to save the MR would look like when dealing with WW. I want the best chance and if that means I need to take more immediate actions, then please tell me. Can we work on a plan? Can you make suggestions as to what actions I can take now in my sitch? Are some of these things to do time sensitive , usually works within a certain timeframe, or under given conditions? I'm starting to hear two schools of thought, firm action, tough love VS an allowing, loving friend. Am I hearing this right? How can I transition more into this role? In hearing myself, it sounds kinda weird for me to ask that... as if I'm asking how can I get my b4ll$ back and how can I become alpha male again. Is this essentially it?
I've been feeling like I'm dodging her and being nice and cordial and that's it(showing her the best upbeat me I can be, then *poof* gone.) I'm reading the rules, giving space, not always initiating greetings or even conversation, using the last resort technique, etc etc... but what more can I do with a WW? How can I say "I want to get a hold of my life when it deals with her" without it sounding too controlling? I hope you get what I'm trying to say... and am I jumping the gun here?
Let me know if there are baby steps I need to take first and how I can best prepare myself. Is it a must that I complete the DR and DB books, maybe read them twice? Complete a few of the exercises? My time has been split from work, home with the kids, exercise, reading stuff here and the books. I have to be careful as well with that. I've been locking MBR door and W today asked why do I lock the doors with this weird look on her face. I don't want her barging in to see what I've been reading. She definitely hears me pecking on the keyboard in the study and has come in to ask me a question before, I think to see what I was doing. Quickly turned to other browser.
I will also say this, to anyone reading: if you sometimes copy and paste like I do, make sure you last copy something that is not a huge wall of important text. Wouldn't want your S hitting paste and seeing anything you saved to clipboard.
Going back to W, I think she feels like I am really cheating on her. I've just been upbeat, really feeling good that some of the weight has been lifted from my shoulders because I don't worry about her all too much. Oh the first 2-3 months were horrible but now even though I don't sleep good all the time, I am in a much better place. Better head space. She kept looking at my phone and seeing if I'm typing to someone on the computer. What's sad is that she will probably use that to justify whatever she is doing. Like okay, we're both now like this, more of a green light.
Sandi, would you share with me what you feel is strength in a time like this. Help rekindle and stoke those flames of purpose, focus, and determination. I'm not scared, I've been passive, not realizing the dangers and damage that can/has cause(d). I want to do what's necessary to make this work.
Can I revisit the conversation with W about not being in an open relationship? Is that fitting or even a good idea ? Besides the self improvement, you got my ear, what is this - more - you speak of? I want ALL of it. I'm willing to try anything and everything whether now or down the road. What from your experience has been the most impactful?
Is it me, is it getting my state of mind right?
I read somewhere in another thread that Newbies oftentimes need to know exactly what to do like as if there is a step by step play book. I think I came across this comment when people were discussing understanding the content in the DR book and once you have a true understanding, then you won't need someone to connect all the dots for you because you'd understand what works in your unique situation, although many sitches are the same.
Am I trying to get W to move out asap so she gets a taste of that independent life she has been wanting? Does it matter who stays or goes or is that dependent on the state laws and best discussed with a lawyer as far as optics goes if we end up in front of a judge? BTW, can we say what state we are in like if we're in California or Texas?
Last week, I stopped by two apartment places to get prices. I probably wont be ready to move into one until a couple more months. Money's going out the door faster than coming in, but if I need to move out and sleep in the car, I would. I don't know if I should show her I'd rather be scraping by than be with her. Don't know how that would look in front of a judge later on down the road when it comes time to talk about the kids (me thinking out loud) I hate this part, I had even been seeing if there were people I could split rent with but that's not feasible with having space for the kids.
I feel like I am trapped, in her trap. I feel like she has this upper hand over me and I hate it. I know what she will do later when it gets close to 7 months. She will ask for me to stay in the house for several selfish reasons. This is when I was going to say no. I cant forget that day when she said she doesn't want the divorce but she needs to see if she can forgive me for not trusting her, for thinking she was cheating. She needs this time to figure it out and work on herself. (Next time if she wants to discuss us or say whatever like this, should I take that opportunity to say I cant live in an open marriage and she would need to go? What if she says no, that I don't know what I am talking about? What if she is persistently saying she hasn't cheated? Is this why I should just ignore these confrontations and work on me?
I am trying to premeditate how our future would play out in 7 months after we sell this house and if it could be to my advantage, but I sense this way of living... IHS, it will have had some type of stale effect when we do separate. Let me know if this is not necessarily the case if I can DB better or in other ways.
And trust me, there is anger. I don't want to show it. If I would have went to that cantina that day, it would have gotten ugly, I am controlling that because of what I did, being destructive, letting it get the best of me. It's there but my 180 is letting it all go, all that anger to be approachable, reasonable, Mr Nice Guy. I read the section of the DR book listing the reasons why W is driven away, I think I checked off each section saying, yep I did that and that. I own up to it but SHE is the one giving up on the family, it's one thing when two people are involved but its something else when she's got the kids involved as well. She wants to think because we don't talk or argue in front of them that it wont affect them. This from the Affair Fog?
I made it easy for the OM to waltz right up to our house.I should have barricaded the door, put guard dogs in the yard, had electric eels in the moat, fenced in the yard with 12 foot barbed wire, but I cleared the path and she opened the door to let him in. Maybe its the worst analogy there is, lol.. but I should have filled her heart full of love and contentment, that it would have been impossible for her to open that door. Instead, she harbored ill feelings, she manipulated, lied, and deceived. Yes there is anger, but it's also checked, trying to at least. I'm also here thinking, even if I didn't fill her life full of happiness, and there were bad days, that still doesn't make it right to do what she is doing. I was going to say it doesn't give her right to do what she is doing, but isn't that controlling? That's my one moment at being "deep".
I contemplate the future. In my current state of not knowing, not knowing how bad it is, who it is, I feel there is no way for me to check or gauge things. It'd have to be by feeling. What if she puts on a good act of being remorseful and only tells me some of whatever happened. I guess I wont really know. I wonder if I'd ever really know and should this be a concern for me to think about at this stage of the game? is it too early to worry about that or should I look at that and maybe revisit that idea of the PI? I don't know... just talking out loud again. I don't think my focus needs to be on this yet.
Oh one thing, in the event phone texts are needed for some reason if there needs to be proof of infidelity for custody rights or w/e, I read somewhere that for some carriers you need to be on the account to get those text records. We both currently are on the same phone plan. I read somewhere else that it would be a good idea when we separate for one of us to drop the plan and get on a new one. Anyone know much about this? I don't want to be shooting myself in the foot for not knowing or planning ahead of time.
W has since turned to skype so any proof of A talk via texts to use will be pushed back for about a year in the 7 months to come. Not sure how long phone companies keep record, but should I contact a lawyer and discuss this with him/her? It feels like a lot of nothing for nothing but I have no idea how bad these D can end up and how much I should protect myself especially when it comes to the kids. I feel low for thinking like this...
As for unconditional love goes, I read that too about the love of family being more like unconditional love. Short story on that and limerence: As kids, I would go over to her house with her brother and eat with them. Their whole family slurps. I didn't know her at the time. I grew up with "some" table manners where you don't slurp, don't pick your face, don't put your elbows on the table etc... so when I met her, I had to get accustomed to everyone, even her sister, slurping. As the years grew, guess what happened? I started to slurp... and it was okay at first...we had a good limerence run for over a decade. We never really let our differences bother us, we would joke and say "you met me this way", then we'd laugh. Only until most recently within this last year when everything started to change, we would be at the same dinner table with her brother and sister slurping and if I slurped, she would say it was gross. She stopped slurping as well... I should have known then that something was up. So in this case, because she has this unconditional love for her family, she is more accepting of the same things from them than if it were from me.
(I thought I wasn't going to type as much tonight, lol... felt good though. Thank you everyone for your support and time you take in reading and responding. means so much)
I think when she gets home with the kids from her brother's I'm going to be in the kitchen sipping water, sipsipsipsippp.
j/k
I like how you think and write, so Im goong to pay more attention to your sitch. BTW to have Sandi on your team this early in the game, and dropping some seriously good advice that we are all learning from...consider yourself lucky.
My only general advice at this point is to focus on detachment. You seem to be doing the same thing I do, which is overthinking. Nothing wrong with collecting information, but make sure at some point that you act on it.
Can I be frank? I'm clueless on what a good plan of action to save the MR would look like when dealing with WW. I want the best chance and if that means I need to take more immediate actions, then please tell me. Can we work on a plan? Can you make suggestions as to what actions I can take now in my sitch?
Here Id say...GAL, 180s, detachment. :P
No, but seriously. Thats your best shot. Were dying to find that silver bullet and it just doesnt exist. That, for me, is almost harder to accept than the fact that W left.
So an action plan is a good idea, but keep in mind that the actions will be pointed at you, not her. Whether this affects her is secondary. Thats why its counterintuitive.
I will also say this, to anyone reading: if you sometimes copy and paste like I do, make sure you last copy something that is not a huge wall of important text. Wouldn't want your S hitting paste and seeing anything you saved to clipboard.
Really good advice, something people probably wouldnt think of. Pass it on.
Going back to W, I think she feels like I am really cheating on her.
So be it. That could work in your favor. Be mysterious. If someone else wants you, it means youre desirable, and she will want to get you. Look at how many of us here were in a sort of ho-hum mood, you know, this M is fine, good enough for me. Then you find out theyre cheating, and you want to be all over them all the time, as much sex as possible, doting, etc. Maybe thats just me. But, that should be what you want her to feel about you. Not manipulating of course, and not actually cheating! Just let the thought percolate in her mind.
Am I trying to get W to move out asap so she gets a taste of that independent life she has been wanting?
You want this to happen, but you dont want to try to make it happen. If it happens, good. If you make it happen, thats pursuit and control. Dont make it happen, but also dont make it easy for it to not happen. Does that make sense?
In my current state of not knowing, not knowing how bad it is, who it is, I feel there is no way for me to check or gauge things. It'd have to be by feeling. What if she puts on a good act of being remorseful and only tells me some of whatever happened. I guess I wont really know. I wonder if I'd ever really know and should this be a concern for me to think about at this stage of the game? is it too early to worry about that or should I look at that and maybe revisit that idea of the PI? I don't know... just talking out loud again. I don't think my focus needs to be on this yet.
The not knowing is bad. But once you know, you cant erase it. And then your imagination starts to run wild when you cant sleep. As for putting on a good act and only telling part of the story, there are two cliches that come to mind: cheaters lie, and believe nothing they say. *slurps coffee*
Can I be frank? I'm clueless on what a good plan of action to save the MR would look like when dealing with WW. I want the best chance and if that means I need to take more immediate actions, then please tell me. Can we work on a plan? Can you make suggestions as to what actions I can take now in my sitch?
I will be happy to help however I can. I have spent most of my spare time over the past eleven years studying about MR's that have a wayward W. That's certainly not to say I know all the answers, b/c I don't. Plus, I want you to remember that this is
your life, and you are the one who will live it.
I'm starting to hear two schools of thought, firm action, tough love VS an allowing, loving friend.
MWD does not use the term "wayward wife" in her books. She doesn't distinguish the wayward from the WAW. IMHO, the wayward W requires a tougher love than a W that walked away from an abusive H (for an example). I have NEVER seen a case where the H successfully saved his M with a WW by being "soft". If you don't know what I mean by "soft", let me know and I'll explain.
The biggest thing I disagree with is being friends with the wayward W. The WW does not have the same goals or desires as her H. So that puts them at odds from the beginning of their "friendship", instead of marriage-ship. I think nearly every WW makes the statement to her H (as she's dropping the bomb on his head) that she wants to remain best friends. Well, it's all been changed. The H is headed for a big trap with no way out if he agrees to be her BFF while she is wayward........b/c of the WW's disrespectful and selfish mindset. If she doesn't want to be M to him, why would he choose to be friends with someone who lies, betrays and deceives him? If he doesn't respect himself any more than that...
.no wonder she doesn't respect him. Another reason it won't work is b/c they each have a completely different view point of the definition of that so-called friendship. The H, who wants to ultimately save his M, is hoping the
friendship will work in drawing them closer together. However, it doesn't work b/c the WW abuses it. She wants to pull out the friendship card whenever she has a job she wants him to do for her, or whenever she's lonely and wants to hang out (if she has no other options), or when she's having a pity party and wants him to comfort her. She will take advantage every chance she gets, and if he tries to pull back......she starts screaming, "YOU SAID WE WOULD BE
FRIENDS!" She expects him to be
her friend, but she is too self centered and cold to be his friend. As usual, she thinks everything is all about her. Here's the thing, she has no intentions of the friend relationship ever becoming more than a way for him to serve her in some capacity. In my opinion, any number of people can hold the position of being her "friend", but there is only one person in this entire world who can hold the position of her husband. I think there is way too much talk about being friends with one's spouse. That should be a relationship incomparable to anything else.
The WW has lost respect for her H as a man, and that loss of respect killed the attraction. (BTW, how's the sex life?) A woman is designed where she has to respect her H as a man (and as the head of their family) before she can feel desire for him, the way a W should desire her H. If time goes by and that respect continues slipping away, then she's not going to feel in love with him. That's why I am always telling you guys that every thing you do from this point forward, has to be seen through the lens of respect. A lot of H's are too concerned about doing loving actions for his WW. For some reason, he seems to think he is suppose to prove to his WW how much he loves her. For now, forget about doing things to prove your love. It's time to prove your manhood. That's where she is really challenging you! If you start doing things to show her how much you love her...
..she will feel utter disgust for you, b/c nobody knows better than she......just how cold her heart has become, and her hard heart will not be persuaded by showering her with what you may translate as proof of your love. Oh, she's tricky. Very tricky! She'll twist everything around and talk about how she doesn't know if she can trust you, etc. And some poor shmuck will buy into that cr@p the WW says. Don't let her talk as if you were the one who broke wedding vows.
And, don't be that guy that jumps through hoops of fire trying to convince a WW that you are worthy of her. I can't tell you how big of a mistake that is......and unfortunately, nice guys are doing it every day.
For the next seven months, your approach or how you see this MR needs to change. When you have a WW, you can't use methods that a lot of books recommend, b/c the WW is a different animal. You can't even use whatever methods you might have used in the past. This is more serious than just trying to improve a relationship. If you want things to change, and for good, it will probably require you doing a few things that may feel a little uncomfortable. We won't cross that bridge tonight, but just know if you intend to really change how she treats you and how she acts in the MR......it will be challenging. You can't continue doing what doesn't work in a relationship.
So........the WW should see her H conducting himself as a manly man. By that, I don't mean to imply he has to impersonate a lumberjack, but if it's necessary to do some research on what women find as attractive, manly traits...
.then get on line and do it. Also, evaluate your body language. (Remind me to talk more about this after Thanksgiving. I'm a little short on time today.) Same goes for your voice and how you speak to your WW, and especially how you sound if you are responding back to her.
Are you a take charge kind of guy? I can almost hear you saying, "When I need to be". Are you decisive or passive? FWIW, women like the opportunity to make a few decisions once in a while, but we hate passivity in men. We admire men who are confident and assertive, so work on illustrating those traits. Do you have a favorite dramatic actor? If so, study his moves and body language, especially around a woman.
If your WW has become somewhat of a bully, then she has to see that you are not afraid to stand up to her when she shows some form of disrespect toward you. In the beginning, you may secretly feel a little afraid, but do it anyway. This is where the body language will help you.
Part of your time spent away from the house, can be put toward research on this subject, and how a man stands up to horsey female. I'm just hitting a few highlights right now, but we can talk more about it later.
Instead of trying to come up with a list of things to do to show her how much you love her, start training yourself during these 7 months to be a man that illustrates how he lives by what he believes is the right thing (based on his values, standards, religious belief system, etc.) He shows that he is a man of integrity, and he does not compromise his integrity to appease her, or anyone else. A man needs to know what he stands on, and why. He also needs to know where he draws the line and says enough is enough. She may not like something you do. In fact, it may make her furious the first few times you stand up to her, but inside her soul......she will think more of you as a man. She's going to test you, but that's just part of being a woman.
As I said, I've been studying this for a little over 11 years, and one of the main things I've observed IRL and on the board, is most of the H's who have these wayward W's...
..are men who have NGS (Nice Guy Syndrome), Not all are to the same degree, of course, but he has it. The more extreme his NGS.....the worst his W's waywardness seems to be. Why? B/c the root of waywardness is a lack of respect. The H who is loaded with NGS is going to want to follow his need to be liked, accepted, and approved by her. His nice-guy is going to want to avoid potential conflict and "keep the peace". I apologize if I am repeating something I've already written on your thread. If you have not read the no more mr. nice guy book, I can't tell you enough just how important it is to your MR......and the rest of your life.....than for you to understand the NGS.
You may see yourself as a good man, who tries to live peacefully. Perhaps you think you are very patient b/c you hold your tongue, instead of saying what you'd really like to say. Maybe you are kind, considerate, and can be very tender toward the feelings of others. Guess what? You can be all these things and not have NGS. On the other hand, you may see yourself this way.....but have NGS. So, please read the book carefully.
Are some of these things to do time sensitive , usually works within a certain timeframe, or under given conditions? I'm starting to hear two schools of thought, firm action, tough love VS an allowing, loving friend. Am I hearing this right? How can I transition more into this role? In hearing myself, it sounds kinda weird for me to ask that... as if I'm asking how can I get my b4ll$ back and how can I become alpha male again. Is this essentially it?
Well I know I am telling you to do a lot of reading, but you can actually google how to become alpha male; how to get your b@lls back from your domineering W; and how to show your W male dominance.
I've been feeling like I'm dodging her and being nice and cordial and that's it(showing her the best upbeat me I can be, then *poof* gone.) I'm reading the rules, giving space, not always initiating greetings or even conversation, using the last resort technique, etc etc... but what more can I do with a WW? How can I say "I want to get a hold of my life when it deals with her" without it sounding too controlling? I hope you get what I'm trying to say... and am I jumping the gun here?
That's why I am telling you to read about certain subjects, so that you put this time to good use, and it will give you that reference point.
It's not enough to just lock the MBR. You must conceal the material you are reading from your W. These are tools just for you. At the moment, I don't think you have to read DB and DR, twice. DR is updated version of DB. Becoming more familiar with the mindset of the WW, is where I suggest your start.
Links to this series of threads
First thread(this thread)
For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554&page=1Second thread
For the Newcomer LBH who has a wayward wife Part 2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2548490#Post2548490Third thread
For the LBH who has a WW Part 3
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551039#Post25510394th thread
Guide for LBH who has a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551811#Post25518115th thread
Help for LBH who has a WW (new thread)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2593214#Post25932146th thread
Sandi's reflections
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2653323#Post2653323These are threads where I posted information about wayward wives. How it starts, what it is, what the H should do, etc. I hope it doesn't sound arrogant for me to tell you that you don't have to read all the responses to my posts in these threads. But, if you have the time.....then sure.
Sandi, would you share with me what you feel is strength in a time like this. Help rekindle and stoke those flames of purpose, focus, and determination. I'm not scared, I've been passive, not realizing the dangers and damage that can/has cause(d). I want to do what's necessary to make this work.
I think you find it within those threads I posted, but if not, let me know and I'll be glad to share.
Wow, this post has become way longer than I intended, so let me continue in the next one.
Okay, so continuing from my previous post...
..
Going back to W, I think she feels like I am really cheating on her.
She will get very curious, and I think she'll break into your computer, so be sure you delete the history. You don't have to convince her you aren't cheating. She just sees you acting differently. When you start kicking GAL into next gear, then she'll really wonder what's going on with you. It's part of being mysterious. I'm not suggesting you pretend you are seeing someone. I'm saying that it would not be a bad thing if she became interested in you as a man again.
She kept looking at my phone and seeing if I'm typing to someone on the computer.
Does she let you look at her phone?
What's sad is that she will probably use that to justify whatever she is doing. Like okay, we're both now like this, more of a green light.
This type of thinking is wasted energy. It distracts you from focusing on the things you can control.
I read somewhere in another thread that Newbies oftentimes need to know exactly what to do like as if there is a step by step play book. I think I came across this comment when people were discussing understanding the content in the DR book and once you have a true understanding, then you won't need someone to connect all the dots for you because you'd understand what works in your unique situation, although many sitches are the same.
We can talk until we turn blue and some newbies never get it. I think the "understanding" comes to people in different ways and different time frames. Something finally clicks in their head. Like, when a H is breaking his fool neck to win favor with his adulterous W, hoping she'll pick him instead of her lover. I'll be honest, there have been times I have about lost it with some guys, b/c I'm thinking, "Are you kidding me!" The worse she treats him, the harder he works to hang on to her. What's attractive about that? If he would dump her and move on...
.. CLICK! But I can't make it click for him. I've seen some guys live an in-house separation (which is no separation at all), and be miserable for years. They are doing everything, while the WW plays around and throws garbage at him. Then finally, one day he wakes up and asks himself WTF is he doing? What is he teaching his kids about being a man? (Okay, so that last part was mostly my input.)
I just want you to know that there are some who do get it. I've seen some guys who were "nice-guys" through and through, make a huge turnaround and grow b@lls of steel. They let the WW go. Some walked away. Guess what? The WW went running after those guys, begging him to not to go......and she was willing to do whatever it took to save their M. But it took tough love, and I'm telling you that I have not seen success stories where it didn't take tough love with a wayward.
Am I trying to get W to move out asap so she gets a taste of that independent life she has been wanting? Does it matter who stays or goes or is that dependent on the state laws and best discussed with a lawyer as far as optics goes if we end up in front of a judge?
Always get your lawyer's legal advice.
The sooner the WW experiences consequences of her actions/decisions, the better. WW's are like rebellious teenagers, and they have to learn consequences just like teenagers. Some of the problems we see today, come from parents not giving their spoiled kids consequences. Some WW's have been so spoiled, and they may have parents or a H, or someone else who enables their lifestyle. You may not be able to do anything about other enablers, but you can control what you do. In the WW threads, I gave a few examples of consequences the H can enforce. Sometimes it opens the eyes of the WW, and sometimes it doesn't. If she just gets mad...
.then it wasn't tough enough, IMHO. She still holds that self entitlement. But one thing is for sure, no consequences for how she treats her H, will certainly not bring about feelings of remorse. I think it's important that the WW feels remorse for her behavior, and especially for an affair. Yes, the H can become this marvelous, attractive male...
.and she would notice his changes. But, this is what I meant by saying it takes "more". He has to be at that place where he is completely done with her self entitlement and the rest of the cr@p he has endured from her. That's the
click I hope you'll get. You stop putting up with her cr@p! I think that's how I'm going to start addressing newbies, by asking them, "Are you ready to stop putting up with her cr@p?"
I feel like I am trapped, in her trap.
You know why? B/c you've played by her rules.
I feel like she has this upper hand over me and I hate it. I know what she will do later when it gets close to 7 months. She will ask for me to stay in the house for several selfish reasons.
Every thing she does is for selfish reasons. That is what motivates the wayward W. Have you told her you are staying for seven months?
This is when I was going to say no.
So, you already know what she's gong to say, and you are going to wait for seven months to tell her no? Help me understand this. I know you love her, but you have to respect yourself more than this.
I cant forget that day when she said she doesn't want the divorce but she needs to see if she can forgive me for not trusting her, for thinking she was cheating.
Remember what I said about how she'll twist things? Prime example.
She needs this time to figure it out and work on herself.
It's all a load of WW cr@p!
(Next time if she wants to discuss us or say whatever like this, should I take that opportunity to say I cant live in an open marriage and she would need to go? What if she says no, that I don't know what I am talking about? What if she is persistently saying she hasn't cheated? Is this why I should just ignore these confrontations and work on me?
Oh, she's going to deny it! Bank on it.
Look, I've got to stop here. There's just too much to answer in a couple of posts......as wordy as I get. I will get back as soon as I get a chance. Okay? I have company coming tomorrow!
P.S. Sorry if some of this doesn't make sense. I shouldn't have tried to undertake so much when I was pushed for time.
Here Id say...GAL, 180s, detachment. :P
Hey Burned, working on that and thank you for the support. Going to put a lot of focus on how to deal with WW and grow my nuts back. I commented on your sitch, and I asked if there were any implications if we were to move out or them.
Been reading more posts and settling in for the long ride.
---
Sandi, I truly, truly, truly can't thank you enough and its never wordy.
Between last night and this morning, I checked out 2 things:
One is:
Forums > Staying Solution-Focused Workshop > LRT 
Stickied LRT post
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=42377#Post42377Second is:
Here are some of the bullet items I had been thinking about earlier today that apply to me :
Sandi's Reflections 2:
Reasons women lose attraction and respect for their H:
* He may have a job she sees as "beneath him", doesn't pay enough, and he won't try to better himself.
* The H lacks male dominance. (The following was taken from another source). He lacks the take-charge ingredient when it comes to the MR and family life.
*The H is emotionally insecure. He is jealous, suspicious, fears, worries, expects the worst case scenario, gets anxious, etc. He doubts himself as a man. He needs constant assurances from his W that everything is fine.
*The H has no pride. He doesn't care about his personal appearance. He has allowed himself to gain too much weight, wears unflattering clothes, and has less than perfect personal grooming habits. He has no pride in keeping the vehicles washed and in working order. He has no pride in how the outside of his house looks, the yard, etc. He develops the habits of a slob, and won't clean up his own messes.
* The H has too much of the negative side of the Nice Guy Syndrome. He is passive, won't stand up to anyone, won't enforce disrespected boundaries, avoids conflict at all cost, over explains himself, etc.
* The H has a job that is considered lower ranked on the success ladder, than his W. He may have worked while she went to school to have a professional career. He was financially supporting her schooling, and paying their bills. After her career takes off, she begins to see him having a lesser important job, with lesser responsibility, and lesser income. She begins to treat him like one of her employees, except with less respect. He has done nothing wrong, but it is a glitch in the W and how she views her H from her new successful pedestal. In our modern world, we are seeing more couples dealing with this issue. Women need to "look up" to their H. If she is not mature enough, or they don't have a very strong/happy MR.....it can negatively influence the light of "success" she sees her H. She sees herself as "outgrowing" him. In most cases....the W's attraction and respect will begin to fade.
It can get a little confusing when LBH's come here to deal with our turmoil and we're looking to find what works or helps like detach, 180, & GAL'ing it up and figuring out how to handle our emotions while dealing with the WW or WAW(sometimes confused on which of the two we are dealing with). The above LRT link has a certain tone to it, be the rock, be the friend tone. Then we find out that doesn't work for WW so we need to make adjustments.
Trying to transition out of this loving, distancing space where we will give them all the time in the world to figure it out to the Tough Love Attitude that the WW needs, I've found myself misreading some of the rules and thinking because we can't do one thing like mentioning the OM that it means we can't set a boundary about OM. Maybe I'm not thinking right in thinking about the right kind of boundary to set. Now I hope that wasn't too wordy and that it makes sense.
I need to do some serious turning around; I was thinking of creating some action items to help improve with the bullets above, but I'm also eager to hear the continuation Sandi from where you left off at.
Your post got me fired up. Wish I knew how to handle talking to WW about A and setting a boundary without messing it up.
I've read your WW series, but it was at various times. I reread a WW thread just now and saw where you said once WW leaves house its harder to impose boundaries, those are best if we're still under one roof. That then leads to my question on what are some common boundaries for IHS?
Coincidentally I had Googled respect in relationships a couple of weeks back. Think I saw what you were referring to with the Respect > Attraction > Intimacy.
I feel like I am going to be missing something important so I'll try to look back and reread things when I can. Thank you for being patient as well.
When I read that H needs to get to a point where he wont deal with her cr4p anymore, I'm thinking oh she's got to go NOW because of everything already done, stuff from the BD day, her lying, the books... Why can't I just throw her stuff out and say, "I'm done with your cheating ways? " I'm not able to tie this all together yet. I guess I need to see some workable boundaries, what those look like and then one for the big A and what that looks like. This is my thought. in 2 months, I'd be saving a little more money and I'd be learning and working with setting small boundaries. Once I'm prepared to set up the big boundary in the A, I'll set it up and see what she does. I'll ask her to leave??? if not... then if she doesn't, I'll have to leave. Hopefully by then I would have consulted with a lawyer to determine if that's the best option.
Please advise me not to get all b4llsy right now before doing the appropriate homework...
The reason for the 7 months was to also save more money for an apartment and new car. I told her I would move in if I need more time to save money since she said she would help with that, this was in the beginning when we both said okay we will D and then work this other stuff out with the finances and split money when we sell the house. I don't want to be just friends. I want an honest, good shot at saving the MR because I know we both have some fixing to do and we both can come out better people in the end. I was going to split after the 7 months from her and then we all deal with the physical separation. I was "hoping" that in that time she would see a little more of the "changed Man" and then get hit when we separate and maybe wake up. NO? Doesn't sound like a good plan?
Okay, Happy Thanksgiving.
Your post got me fired up. Wish I knew how to handle talking to WW about A and setting a boundary without messing it up.
Sandi's posts have a way of getting us Nice Guys fired up. That's exactly her goal! But then you said,
Please advise me not to get all b4llsy right now before doing the appropriate homework...
which suggests a reasonable degree of caution, because it's tempting to overdo it. Yes, take the time, do your homework. And when it comes time to act, act quickly and decisively, and don't back down.
I'm thinking oh she's got to go NOW because of everything already done, stuff from the BD day, her lying, the books... Why can't I just throw her stuff out and say, "I'm done with your cheating ways? "
No joke, MONTHS ago I had everyone I know IRL telling me to do exactly that. Even my IC who is normally very reserved and doesn't give any straight advice, said, "How about this, what if you said to her, get out, and don't come back until you're ready to work on this M"? My parents said the same thing. People I work with (stupidly I told them about my sitch) wondered WTF I was doing letting her stay, and they lost respect for me that I'm only now starting to rebuild. That was back in April. But here's the thing, back in April I didn't have the b@lls to do it, and I was terrified that that would mean I'd lose her. In fact there were TWO times, first on BD when I confronted her about the A, then in June when she said she wanted S and was moving out...TWO opportunities for me to say, "Yeah, that's right, GTFO." IT WAS A TEST. And I failed, both times. What I know now is that I may have lost her because I
didn't do that. I regret it, so so badly. But I didn't know then what I know now. That was before DB.
Does she respect me now? I doubt it. And now that we are physically S and don't talk except a text message every week or two to deal with finances or for her to try to manipulate me by talking about D, there's little I can do to regain respect. I just went dark. For example, she says happy thanksgiving, I say nothing. Does that send the message that I respect myself too much to want to have anything to do with her? Or do I just come across as a coward who is sulking because he didn't get what he wants?
The POINT is that you still have SO much room to work with. You have no idea. Be thankful for that. Take your time to think about what you want to do, and why. And then do it. Short-term misery, long-term happiness. You're on the right track I think, but I'm not the expert here.
I was "hoping" that in that time she would see a little more of the "changed Man" and then get hit when we separate and maybe wake up. NO? Doesn't sound like a good plan?
Sounds like a great plan, and 7 months is a long time. If you do this right, consistently, and without mercy, you just might be one of the success stories. Or at least you might find that you don't end up S. Who knows?
This is my third continuation post, trying to address some of the things you posted to me (yesterday, I think). Maybe I can wrap it up in this third one. (lol)
Help rekindle and stoke those flames of purpose, focus, and determination. I'm not scared, I've been passive, not realizing the dangers and damage that can/has cause(d). I want to do what's necessary to make this work.
I read back over your first post in this thread, where you gave some background of how the M got to this point. You made the mistake many people make after they get the bride/groom. I'm going to make a guess here. Your lack of attentiveness to the relationship, and your apparent (from the way I read it) lack of passion in life, and your loss of personal pride in your appearance...
... negatively impacted your W and the MR. I'm going to make another stab in guessing things were not exactly sizzling in the bedroom, either. You took her for granted, obviously. And at the same time, you had a lot of insecurities based on your past hurts. I don't have to ask her to know her emotional needs were not fulfilled by her H. That's why she turned to romantic novels, then started responding to some man who knew what to say to make her feel special. In other words, he started filling her emotional needs. You see, all those years, she slowly built up resentment and disrespect for you. But, she probably pushed it down in her heart, so it stayed there, unresolved, and grew to the point of rebellion. This is the foundation in the heart of a wayward W. It didn't happen over night. You may not have been aware of her feelings, but it took time for her to reach the point of being vulnerable to some guy's sweet words that turned her head away from her M.
In order to stoke the flames of purpose and determination, you are going to have to change, Adam. And understand something, b/c this is vitally important. It MUST be life changing. In other words, you can't just pick up a few tips of how to spruce up and woo her out of the arms of OM...
.and then fall back into your lazy, passive ways again. It destroyed your M, b/c it sucked the life out of it. You may need IC, or whatever it takes to put a rocket in your a$$
.but you have lost your W due to all of the above. Yes, you are responsible for your actions. You are NOT responsible for her choosing to have an affair. Her unmet emotional needs left her vulnerable, but she is responsible for deceiving, betraying, etc. I suspect the loss of her father was the tipping point. She probably needed grief counseling. But it all worked together to reach this point.
You remind me of another former board member. Oh boy, when he decided to change......he gave it a 100%. If he could bottle and sell that incentive, he'd be rich! I don't know what is more incentive than trying to save yourself and start really living life with passion. There are so many motivational talks on You Tube; books written about having passion for life, etc. If that doesn't help, then I suggest you try therapy, b/c there's something deeper inside that needs to be addressed.
I'm also here thinking, even if I didn't fill her life full of happiness, and there were bad days, that still doesn't make it right to do what she is doing. I was going to say it doesn't give her right to do what she is doing, but isn't that controlling?
Controlling? What are you controlling? No, it has nothing to do about controlling. Hummm, she must throw that word around a lot.
Okay, got to run. Hope you have a good Thanksgiving.
Hi Adam,
It looks like you've got lots of really good advice from Sandi and others ... and to be honest, Sandi is far more articulate and much more familiar with the WW than me so I will stick to answering the question you posed to me on Burned's thread re how we went from IHS to MO.
There was no discussion. It was a slow escalation (mostly by me in my angry desperate moods) over a period of three months, and then three months for him to eventually MO. If I had not pushed he wouldn't have gone.
My sitch is different to some of the others here. There was no OW. He did not want to leave (I pushed him). He was just desperately unhappy. I wish I knew that when this started. A lot of what has happened since has been my doing.
For example, she says happy thanksgiving, I say nothing. Does that send the message that I respect myself too much to want to have anything to do with her? Or do I just come across as a coward who is sulking because he didn't get what he wants?
It is such a difficult balance. I would respond "Thank you. You too". I get a lot of texts/emails about the children. His are more wordy then mine. My responses tend to be "Sure", "No problem" or "I can't".
In reflecting back after Thanksgiving,
I've looked back over my thread and in 2 weeks time from joining the forum, I've tried to listen to the advice and apply changes where I could, and accepting my sitch. I've accepted that I'm dealing with a wayward wife, that I am responsible for what I've done, and she is responsible for her actions. I've learned a lot, that I was in denial and that my whole way of looking at things was wrong(thinking the other person in the MR could fix me or had a responsibility to make me whole, and that I was responsible for her, I felt like I was to blame for her actions). I've learned that the fight has just begun and it will be a long road ahead. I learned that I need to change for me and NOT HER. I learned that the mentality of the WW is a different beast, and that I have NGS(nice guy syndrome). When I thought I should be the one leaving and packing up, I learned of the implications this had and doing this out of anger has no purpose. I learned that when I thought I was making a stand, I was controlling, not setting real boundaries but ultimatums. I'm accepting that I don't have all the answers and that I can come here for advice, comfort, and just to let it out.
I was naοve, and thought that love was unconditional; I had forgotten it needed steady nurturing to grow & sustain. I'm learning, being open and honest, being humble, listening, sharing, and willing to change. I know I've been stubborn and what I thought worked isn't working. I'm learning to also be patient and get up and do, do for self and regain back the passion for life I lost somewhere along the way. I'm learning to rebuild, starting with myself ,and I thank you for the help along the way.
I truly feel like I'm at an advantage going into this by the advice and support I've received thus far. It's helped me to sleep better & feel better, to let go of some of the guilt and sorrow, to focus more on getting action plans together for me and my kids. It's helped me to become centered, stable, and not emotional. I know what to do now opposed to a month ago. I'm still learning, I know there is a lot more to learn. I still have a long way to go, whatever the end looks like I will take it one day at a time. One day, I will learn to paraphrase all this.
short term goals/to do list:
1 Finish reading DR(goal is to get a better understanding of the book in its entirety and learn what techniques I can use)
2 Reread the threads on WW and go through the replies, I wasn't able to do that the first run.( goal is to get better understanding of WW and when/how to respond)
3 Get the list of local attorneys completed and see who can schedule Saturday appointments first, then work around my work schedule.(looking to start realistically in Jan after holidays, I talked to work on available days I could schedule appointments, I have dates ready to schedule with attorneys) goal is to know my legal rights and protect myself.
4 Maybe pick up the boundary book mentioned in the Boundaries sticky. (goal is to learn more about setting appropriate boundaries for myself)
5 Research some motivational videos, consider setting up IC. (goal: find out what will help me regain passion for life)
6 Work out at least 4 days a week, Goal : want to lose 8-10 pounds each month for next 6 months.(want to take 2-3 days out of week to get home and help bathe the little one so I will have to work out at home)
7 Get to the Resources thread and Go through each one. I haven't come across the Cashier story yet... (goal, knowledge gathering)
8 Research Alpha Male info. (goal: bigger b@ll$)
(Just going to say after I deleted a long post, that there was a time when I didn't need this, my W would say she was addicted to my smell, my pheromones. I don't want to sound pompous, vain, or like a braggart so I'm not going into details of my past except it's kinda hard to swallow when I thought my changes were for the better and MR was safe.
9 GAL going to see Venom by myself.. maybe this weekend on Sunday. (Goal, enjoy time away, maybe it will help to detach?)
10 Shop for better fitted clothes. I'm still wearing some clothes that's a size too big. (Goal: feel better, feel more confident, look better, get that swag back.)
11 Buy some pickets and 2x4 to fill in some gaps in the back fence. Was thinking about doing this tomorrow. Will need W car. (goal: GAL, spending time away from W)
12 Research how to get back Respect in MR.(goal: understanding this key element and first building block to successful relationship with WW)
13 Read No More Mr Nice Guy (goal: learn how to gain respect back) (bought it, will read it tonight)
Your post got me fired up. Wish I knew how to handle talking to WW about A and setting a boundary without messing it up.
Sandi's posts have a way of getting us Nice Guys fired up. That's exactly her goal! But then you said,
Please advise me not to get all b4llsy right now before doing the appropriate homework...
which suggests a reasonable degree of caution, because it's tempting to overdo it. Yes, take the time, do your homework. And when it comes time to act, act quickly and decisively, and don't back down.
That's the plan, gather all the info I need and identify when its the right opportunity and strike when the iron is hot.
Does she respect me now? I doubt it.
You are separated. Didn't it takes b@lls for you to do that? I don't think you can gauge that really, to be fair. You're saying my W won't gain any respect for me if I left as well? I'm hearing if I stay in IHS too, with an empty boundary, it would be worse.
And now that we are physically S and don't talk except a text message every week or two to deal with finances or for her to try to manipulate me by talking about D, there's little I can do to regain respect. I just went dark. For example, she says happy thanksgiving, I say nothing. Does that send the message that I respect myself too much to want to have anything to do with her? Or do I just come across as a coward who is sulking because he didn't get what he wants?
Don't be so hard on yourself. Every chance you have to text your W about finances or even D, seems like a chance to leave the slightest impression. Don't overthink it. There's going to be Christmas and New Year so figure it out now, no harm.
My W texted me earlier about her and the kids not coming home, they're spending the night at a brother's house. I didn't respond back. Should I be thinking the same thing of what she thinks of me? When I first did that, ignore her informational text, she started to text like," Oh what now, you not texting me back?" She might be thinking I'm playing games. I'm not, I'm learning to let go. A fleeting thought crossed my mind on what if she dropped the kids off and told her brother that she was coming home or whatever else she wants to do in the night. I'm 100% good with it. Won't call the in laws, wont snoop etc. She may have been upset tonight that I did not go with her to her brother's Thanksgiving dinner, but for me to speculate would be wasted energy.
The POINT is that you still have SO much room to work with.
Sounds like a great plan, and 7 months is a long time. If you do this right, consistently, and without mercy, you just might be one of the success stories. Or at least you might find that you don't end up S. Who knows?
Earlier on page 2, Max listed a couple of pointers about IHS and said that they rarely worked.
Going to work on gaining that Respect back.
That's why I am always telling you guys that every thing you do from this point forward, has to be seen through the lens of respect.
For the next seven months, your approach or how you see this MR needs to change.
If you have not read the no more mr. nice guy book, I can't tell you enough just how important it is to your MR......and the rest of your life.....than for you to understand the NGS
I bought the No More Mr Nice Guy book and will read that ASAP. She wants BAD? I'm going to whisper sweet nothings into that big ole ear of hers. j/k I shouldn't be playing right now.
Does she let you look at her phone?
Yes, but I don't. She says she has nothing to hide and leaves the phone around. She'll take a long 2-3 hour nap and leave it on the table, BUT this was only recently. She's got good at hiding now. She is most likely the one who is initiating contact with OM first. I've never gone through her phone. I checked it once on BD asking her about the text I knew she received but checking her phone she deleted it. If I wanted to, I have the phone # she texted that day and could call it from her phone to see who picks up, but I haven't gone to that level. I want to have some dignity and integrity intact but at some point I might throw all that out the window and get low right with her if it comes down to it.
You may see yourself as a good man, who tries to live peacefully. Perhaps you think you are very patient b/c you hold your tongue, instead of saying what you'd really like to say. Maybe you are kind, considerate, and can be very tender toward the feelings of others. Guess what? You can be all these things and not have NGS. On the other hand, you may see yourself this way.....but have NGS.
Yup, this was how I was seeing myself.
So, you already know what she's gong to say, and you are going to wait for seven months to tell her no? Help me understand this. I know you love her, but you have to respect yourself more than this.
I was going to use this time to save up and shape up, then when it came time to move out, we deal with the physical separation and I was hoping from all the manly changes that it would wake up her where she cant deal with being separated.
For now within the next 7 months, If she doesn't force a conversation to be kicked out, am I supposed to initiate something to kick her out? I thought the answer was no, so I was going to wait for us to split and see how she deals with that. If I shouldn't move out of the house, and if you are saying I should consider trying to get her out the house before the 7 months, how does that conversation look on my part?
I read back over your first post in this thread, where you gave some background of how the M got to this point. You made the mistake many people make after they get the bride/groom.
In order to stoke the flames of purpose and determination, you are going to have to change, Adam. And understand something, b/c this is vitally important. It MUST be life changing. In other words, you can't just pick up a few tips of how to spruce up and woo her out of the arms of OM...
.and then fall back into your lazy, passive ways again. It destroyed your M, b/c it sucked the life out of it. You may need IC, or whatever it takes to put a rocket in your a$$
Assumptions for the most part are okay. As to losing the passion for life? It's hard to say, I've written this a dozen times and deleted. Maybe an IC would help me. Don't think I'm ready to share that to the world.
Controlling? What are you controlling? No, it has nothing to do about controlling. Hummm, she must throw that word around a lot.
We both have said the other person is controlling for a long time. I've told her if you want to get your way doing this, you need to do this or that too then. I'm sure it's left her feeling like she's been doing everything. We used to call it this balance. Its like tit for tat though.
Hi Adam,
I will stick to answering the question you posed to me on Burned's thread re how we went from IHS to MO.
There was no discussion. It was a slow escalation (mostly by me in my angry desperate moods) over a period of three months, and then three months for him to eventually MO. If I had not pushed he wouldn't have gone.
My sitch is different to some of the others here. There was no OW. He did not want to leave (I pushed him). He was just desperately unhappy. I wish I knew that when this started. A lot of what has happened since has been my doing.
Sorry to hear. It's hard when one person is unhappy and bringing that energy to the family. I know I am at fault for that. I wasn't happy with something she did or did not do, then I either do something stupid or not do anything at all when she needed me to. What makes things also a little confusing was how we used to joke about everything. We could diffuse anything but over the years, it became less jokey, jokey and more like Hey, I mean it this time, while the other one is still laughing at the person or not taking it seriously.
I can see you wanting to be there for him. Make sure as you do, you take care of yourself first and foremost.
Adam,
I really like your detailed post on your mindset, goals, and what you have learned. You will be better for doing all of that.
Dont forget that there is definitely more to GAL than just staying busy. Sure, it feels good to get projects done around the house and its good to read books. But I think a big part of GAL is going out and having new adventures and meeting new people and expanding your social network to build confidence. How are you accomplishing that?
Ovrrnbw, Thank you. I found it therapeutic to post & revisit.
Don’t forget that there is definitely more to GAL than just staying busy. Sure, it feels good to get projects done around the house and it’s good to read books. But I think a big part of GAL is going out and having new adventures and meeting new people and expanding your social network to build confidence. How are you accomplishing that?
Thank you Amoafwl, I just finished reading No More Mr Nice Guy, so I agree 100% that GAL benefits are 10fold. A bud of mine whom I recently visited is going to have a holiday get together soon and he usually has people from his work and some neighbors over. Met some before, was a nice time. Looking forward to that. Other than that, not really a lot of new people, have some stuff coming up with a couple of brothers to work out at the gym and help restore an old fixer upper. Thinking tomorrow I might catch a movie and hit up a clothing store I usually go to, they're pretty talkative there. At work, I have a work buddy who works out with me Mon - Thurs and we talk while working out. Might hang out with him and try a Chinese buffet, but I'm not pushing on that one.
Speaking of the book, I have full blown NGS. Didn't know it would be deep seeded. Going to need a minute to take this all in.
I have full blown NGS. Didn't know it would be deep seeded. Going to need a minute to take this all in.
You and just about every other guy here. Even some of the ladies (looking at you, Yail).
Dont sweat it. Its a lot to digest at first, but it ends up being manageable. Day by day you start to take little risks and as you find out that nobody likes you any less for being more honest and authentic, you get better at it. Actually they end up liking you more. You end up liking yourself more. And maybe W ends up liking you more, too.
I have full blown NGS. Didn't know it would be deep seeded. Going to need a minute to take this all in.
You and just about every other guy here. Even some of the ladies (looking at you, Yail).
Don’t sweat it. It’s a lot to digest at first, but it ends up being manageable. Day by day you start to take little risks and as you find out that nobody likes you any less for being more honest and authentic, you get better at it. Actually they end up liking you more. You end up liking yourself more. And maybe W ends up liking you more, too.
Thank you burned, that is comforting. I'm going to work on not holding it in, and just letting it rip... Picturing going to work and saying " oh my god, that shirt is hideous." Liar Liar Part 2!
Hi Adam, I wanted to send a couple of things your way today. This first one will be about boundaries, and I'll post a second one about detaching. I hope they help.
Okay, to start explaining boundaries (and I am not an expert), you first have to understand what they are and what they aren't. Think of a personal boundary like an invisible circle around you. This circle is to protect your feelings. Anything that crosses over that line, disrespects you.
You are the one who decides what is offensive/disrespectful to you. This should be based on your standards of values, principles, morals, religious beliefs, integrity, self respect, etc. If something offends you, then there should be a reason it is offensive. In other words, don't just go by whatever you feel that day, b/c emotions can be fickle. When it comes to your boundaries, they should not really change unless your beliefs change to support it. Does that make sense?
You cannot control other people actions. You only control yourself. In a relationship, you can tell the other person their actions are disrespectful toward you. They have the choice of honoring your boundary, or ignoring it. If you can't control anyone but yourself, what happens if your boundary is disrespected after you tell the other person their actions are offensive? You respond with some type of action.
Let's bring it on down to a MR. To clarify by using the word "action", this is not to be interpreted as meaning you respond in any type of violence or abuse. If necessary, take the action to leave.
I believe most WW's have to experience some type of consequences when she shows disrespect to her H. The first time, he can tell her that is disrespectful and he will not tolerate it. The second time it happens, he needs to be ready to respond with some type of action that will result as a consequence for her.......in order to be effective. Of course, he can always walk away or leave the house, but he can't do that for everything or she'll just see him "running away", and interpret it as weakness (depending on the situation). And for nice guys, they have to watch their tendency to be passive-aggressive.
To use an example of a enforcing a boundary, let's say the WW calls her H and is yelling, cursing, and b'tching at him. He tells her he will not tolerate being spoken to over the phone in that disrespectful manner. She ignores him and continues to raise he!!. Does he warn her again? No! What can he do? He hangs up! If she calls again and starts the same stuff, he hangs up and doesn't answer again. No arguing, no negotiation, no more warnings.
That was a simple one, and the bigger the offense, the bigger the consequence should be. Some people might argue that it is punitive. I suppose you will have to make that decision. You are protecting yourself by doing something that clearly gives her the message that you will not be treated in that disrespectful manner. She doesn't have to agree or like it. She doesn't have to do it, but if she ignores your one warning......then there will be some action from you that protects your feelings from her disrespect.
Never say you will not tolerate some behavior, if you can't stand behind your word. In the link on boundaries, I think they use an example of the boundary "I will not stay in an open MR". Some newcomers with a WW in an A thought they would jump right on that one. Well guess what? The A did not stop and the newcomers were trying to back peddle, b/c they were not ready to carrying through with what they said.
What makes you feel disrespected? (You don't have to list those things here). Women can show disrespect for their H in many ways. The passive nice guy settles for her bad treatment, and some day she's showing him disrespect in front of his kids, his friends, his parents, his boss, strangers......and it gets worse as time goes on. We teach people how to treat us.
Definition of Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)
I. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.
When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.
When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love (known as to lovingly detach*), we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.
It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.
We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).
We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)
PART II Detachment (found around here)
Detachment is the:
* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.
* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.
* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.
* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my duty/job to do so.
* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.
* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.
* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanind or controlling.
* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).
* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.
* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
* Ability to allow S to be who he/she really is rather than who I want him/her to be.
IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -
We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.
Thank you Sandi. I'm grateful you provided that information on detaching and boundaries. I've read them a couple of times and I'll continue to keep reading them too for further insight if I have an AHA moment or just as a reminder on what I need to/can do. It's taking time to -really- get into that mindset of detaching, and I'm trying to be aware, really the thing these days for me is being aware. It's so easy to take things for granted or fall back into old patterns, not really paying attention to what those patterns are or when they happen. Sometimes it's very draining.
I've been anxious with boundaries. I've been wanting to set them just to set them because the way my mind works is that I have to have some type of action, thinking action would equal progress. I have to get expectations out of my head.
When I was done reading NMMNG I went back through the chapters and table of contents looking at the topics. It covered so much. I felt like it exposed me and opened my eyes to how the world perceives these behaviors. Definitely a book to refer back to, Thanks for the recommendation Sandi.
Never knew saying "I love you" was a covert contract, that blew my mind. Never knew what a covert contract was. My family has always had a history of saying that, my mother, by siblings, still to this day, when we hang up the phone with each other, we say it. I tell my sons that like a thousand times a day. I was pretty disgusted with myself at the end of the book, but I hope to turn that around. I won't say that I will be the next Bill Gates, but I'm trying to make a positive change.
In NMMNG, one of the topics was that Nice Guys never live up to their full potential. I am dealing with the resentment of this fact now and I know it's taken its toll on the MR. Watching W do well and I feel like I'm at a dead-end. I feel like I let both of us down, and when I talked to her about it, in the past she made it seem like it was okay as long as I kept trying, the money/success would come, that I'd get paid for my efforts. My own disappointment made things fizzle. That's how I see it anyways.
Today, I didn't go to the movies like I thought I would nor did I go shopping. I went to the store and bought pickets to repair my fence. Spent the morning repairing it. W asked if I wanted help. I declined. When I was done she bought lunch and said I had done a good job. Told her thank you and thank you. Ate lunch with the family.
Every time we speak, one of the first things in my mind is detaching and Sandis rules and also in the back of my mind, I'm waiting to see if she will say something disrespectful. Last night, she said she musta ate something bad and it made her stomach hurt. I was mindful not to jump up and say let me see if we have something for that or do you want me to get you anything. I left it to her to fix her bubble guts. I left the room in case she found a quick way.
W told me her brother asked if I had more pickets and wanted to know if I could help him on his fence. I said sure, I had extra, just let me know when and I'll be over to help. I am not saying it'll get me in good with her, but I hope in time with things happening naturally, that if I put myself in a position to do better, to also help others, that if she does notice, who knows... ( I know not to expect anything, I'm making an observation on my current situation with IHS, living together respectfully, and having opportunities to show the other person something positive, where taking an action (fixing fence) leads to something else positive ( helping brother) = how wife feel? this could be akin to action (GAL) coming home (action = not relying on W for emotional support) = how wife feel?)
After lunch I was able to get on and post something. Then it came time to do some decorating. Remember my lil one wanted to put the lights up, so we did. It is our last year in this house, maybe our last Christmas together, who knows. I didn't think about anything, didn't let that thought get to me. We did our family thing, putting the Christmas tree up, and the boys helped me put a snowman and lights up, outside. I'll miss this.
At work and thankful for everything. Going to try and not think of W , if it happens I will think of something else to block thoughts of her and refocus on the work. May fail but it should lessen those lingering thoughts. My 6yo loves to draw and saw some of my sketches. He said dad I'm jealous, I asked him you? I love his artwork, I can see certain things in it where I think it's advanced. I'm considering doing a piece for him using shadows, silhouettes , and just basically contour drawing of dragon riders in the sky, maybe spark something creative in him. Every time a thought of her pops in, I will think of this creative work I want to do and once I dwell on that enough I'll remind myself to get back to work. Here's to one day at a time.
Update: two hours in, thought about her or things related to her maybe between 25-50 times and I'd switch to a mental picture of something else, that drawing, I even sketched and doodles, and I can quickly disengage. But thoughts just keep coming. It used to be that when they do, I accept things, try not to dwell, try to see what I did wrong, learn from it, embrace it. I know in time things will be less and less. Maybe I don't want to count on time. When things were good I thought time was on my side, can't just rely on that. I think of her and I whisper block it block it block it, then think of something to refocus.
It's so easy to take things for granted or fall back into old patterns, not really paying attention to what those patterns are or when they happen. Sometimes it's very draining.
You feel more comfortable in those old patterns. It takes self awareness, and also discipline, whenever we make significant changes in ourselves. I may have said this previously, but it's worth saying again. The majority of LBH's I have seen return to the board, admitted they became too comfortable or lazy, and fell back into their old ways. Plus, I think some of them were making changes just to win back their W, and once she was back......they stopped working. Much like you said about once you got married. I think it's the same type of mindset.
I've been anxious with boundaries. I've been wanting to set them just to set them because the way my mind works is that I have to have some type of action, thinking action would equal progress.
I don't think you get it, but maybe I don't understand what you mean. Do you understand the purpose of boundaries? Could you expound a little more on this, please?
When I was done reading NMMNG I went back through the chapters and table of contents looking at the topics. It covered so much. I felt like it exposed me and opened my eyes to how the world perceives these behaviors. Definitely a book to refer back to, Thanks for the recommendation Sandi.
Oh, I am so glad to hear that you read it. I hope you will keep it handy, and use like a daily manual for your life. BTW, be careful not to repeat some of the text (or message) to your WW. So many H's compelled to pass along something he reads, as if it were his own words. You know, like he reads something he wishes she would read, so he tries to work it in his conversations? Yeah, I don't suggest you do it. It's a turn off to the WW. She may be in la-la land, but she's got your number.
Never knew saying "I love you" was a covert contract, that blew my mind.
After my H discovered my A, I remember one day we were in the car when out of the blue he said, "I love you". I was so turned off b/c I knew exactly what he was doing. He was pressuring me to make me say it back, whether or not he realized it. For the first time in our MR, I did not respond. It made him angry.
In NMMNG, one of the topics was that Nice Guys never live up to their full potential. I am dealing with the resentment of this fact now and I know it's taken its toll on the MR. Watching W do well and I feel like I'm at a dead-end. I feel like I let both of us down, and when I talked to her about it, in the past she made it seem like it was okay as long as I kept trying, the money/success would come, that I'd get paid for my efforts. My own disappointment made things fizzle. That's how I see it anyways.
It can get frustrating living with a man who has NGS. I always thought my H and I were very different in our personalities and how we approached most things. I was the type to "tackle" anything and get it done, and he had to mull it over in his mind a week.....or a year. It would drive me nuts! I wanted to just screamed, "Move....just make a little movement to signal that you are still alive!" He was introverted and I was extroverted. One day we were watching tv when a commercial came on about ADD. He told me he had been that way as far back as he could remember. I was shocked, b/c I had no idea. It made so much sense for some of his ways that drove me crazy (which I will spare details). So, when you sum up the NGS (especially the passivity), an introverted personality, and ADD...
.it's amazing that one of us have not killed the other. He probably mulled the idea over in his mind, but that's as far as it got.
I was mindful not to jump up and say let me see if we have something for that or do you want me to get you anything. I left it to her to fix her bubble guts. I left the room in case she found a quick way.
Good job! Absolutely, she's a big girl, she can get something for her tummy.
I see H's with NGS struggle learning how to balance some of these of new responses. They tend to go from one extreme to the other. Many of these nice guys have catered to the W so long, she sees him in a subservient role. That can kill attraction real fast. These are H's who wait hand & foot on the W, but both of them know she's not going to wait hand & foot on
him! Anyway, stay balanced in this situation. If your W is too sick to get out of bed, then you can get her medicine, maybe cook her some soup. But if you are working downstairs and she's upstairs and wants you to take something to her? Use your head and stay balanced. Ask yourself why you need to stop what you are doing, go get what she wants and run it upstairs to her. What's wrong with her
getter? I don't know how much you have spoiled her, but I know it can lead some women to feel and act with a sense of entitlement. On the other hand, if the family is having dinner and she asks you to pass the salt, don't tell her to get herself. See the difference?
This has nothing to do with punishment. It has two purposes. One, is linked to the NGS (which the book explains). And the other is linked to her wayward mindset. It is taking steps to break a habit of catering to a wayward W who does not appreciate nor respect you. In most cases I remember, the WW had grown to "expect" the catering. If she ends the affair and the MR is reconciled, then you can do things once in a while, like take her a cup of coffee...
.as long as she is showing you pretty close to equal acts of service.
I am not saying it'll get me in good with her, but I hope in time with things happening naturally, that if I put myself in a position to do better, to also help others, that if she does notice, who knows... ( I know not to expect anything, I'm making an observation on my current situation with IHS, living together respectfully, and having opportunities to show the other person something positive, where taking an action (fixing fence) leads to something else positive ( helping brother) = how wife feel? this could be akin to action (GAL) coming home (action = not relying on W for emotional support) = how wife feel?)
Seriously?
I am not saying it'll get me in good with her, but I hope in time with things happening naturally, that if I put myself in a position to do better, to also help others, that if she does notice, who knows... ( I know not to expect anything, I'm making an observation on my current situation with IHS, living together respectfully, and having opportunities to show the other person something positive, where taking an action (fixing fence) leads to something else positive ( helping brother) = how wife feel? this could be akin to action (GAL) coming home (action = not relying on W for emotional support) = how wife feel?)
That entire paragraph reeks of expectations and trying to think about how your actions will influence her feelings. NGS! You're new at this so don't feel bad, I'm just pointing it out so you start to get a sense of how insidious it can be. BTW, I'm not saying I'm any better at it than you are...
Watch out for "the illusion of action." You've read through my posts, you've seen me spinning for months trying to calculate exactly what to do to "fix this." Hasn't gotten me anywhere. So don't forget the one of the official DB principles from the DR book is that sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something, because "something" wasn't working, and "nothing" is something different.
It can get frustrating living with a man who has NGS. I always thought my H and I were very different in our personalities and how we approached most things. I was the type to "tackle" anything and get it done, and he had to mull it over in his mind a week.....or a year. It would drive me nuts! I wanted to just screamed, "Move....just make a little movement to signal that you are still alive!"
Ooof, Sandi this is so helpful to hear from your perspective. I have Nice Gal Syndrome with the need to reeeaallllyyyyyy process things (the "really" was drawn out to show just how long it can take me....). I kind of knew this about myself but I'm learning a lot from these boards.
One of my goals is...ACTION! In my life. Make decision and GO!
[quote]I am not saying it'll get me in good with her, but I hope in time with things happening naturally, that if I put myself in a position to do better, to also help others, that if she does notice, who knows... ( I know not to expect anything, I'm making an observation on my current situation with IHS, living together respectfully, and having opportunities to show the other person something positive, where taking an action (fixing fence) leads to something else positive ( helping brother) = how wife feel? this could be akin to action (GAL) coming home (action = not relying on W for emotional support) = how wife feel?)
Seriously?
It was easy to feel that one word hitting like 2 2x4s
I've been anxious with boundaries. I've been wanting to set them just to set them because the way my mind works is that I have to have some type of action, thinking action would equal progress.
I don't think you get it, but maybe I don't understand what you mean. Do you understand the purpose of boundaries? Could you expound a little more on this, please?
Because W and I don't really talk, there are no boundaries set. I don't feel like there's anything pressing I have to get off my chest right now that "fits" our current situation other than the A. Because I don't feel there are any boundaries being laid down, I feel like there is no progress. burned also commented and talked about what I was getting at. Sometimes we want to do something to "fix" things so we try to figure out what it is we need to do, what action to take. He's been spinning. We think of what boundaries to set when sometimes there just aren't any for the time being. One boundary is controlling the space. Although it is not verbally communicated, I'm not allowing her into my space because I reserve that for someone who wants to be in the MR, because she isn't, I'm removing -myself- away from her when I can without affecting the children. When children are involved, like dinnertime, I'm cordial.
I am not saying it'll get me in good with her, but I hope in time with things happening naturally, that if I put myself in a position to do better, to also help others, that if she does notice, who knows... ( I know not to expect anything, I'm making an observation on my current situation with IHS, living together respectfully, and having opportunities to show the other person something positive, where taking an action (fixing fence) leads to something else positive ( helping brother) = how wife feel? this could be akin to action (GAL) coming home (action = not relying on W for emotional support) = how wife feel?)
That entire paragraph reeks of expectations and trying to think about how your actions will influence her feelings. NGS! You're new at this so don't feel bad, I'm just pointing it out so you start to get a sense of how insidious it can be. BTW, I'm not saying I'm any better at it than you are...
Watch out for "the illusion of action." You've read through my posts, you've seen me spinning for months trying to calculate exactly what to do to "fix this." Hasn't gotten me anywhere. So don't forget the one of the official DB principles from the DR book is that sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something, because "something" wasn't working, and "nothing" is something different.
Hey burn, I don't feel bad. I knew how it sounded coming out, and I take full responsibility for that. I was trying to comment with several ideas meshed into that one paragraph. I hear ya on the illusion of action. I need to stop trying to be a busybody thinking I gotta do something.
Because W and I don't really talk, there are no boundaries set. I don't feel like there's anything pressing I have to get off my chest right now that "fits" our current situation other than the A. Because I don't feel there are any boundaries being laid down, I feel like there is no progress. burned also commented and talked about what I was getting at. Sometimes we want to do something to "fix" things so we try to figure out what it is we need to do, what action to take. He's been spinning. We think of what boundaries to set when sometimes there just aren't any for the time being.
Then I'll have to say that I don't think either of you fully understand the purpose or the operation of boundaries. Imagine that you drew a circle around yourself. That circle represents a protective shield. You decide what can go inside that circle and what doesn't. B/c what goes crosses that line/circle....hurts you. It tears down your dignity and self esteem. It forces you to compromise. It takes away your manhood. It's your responsibility to protect your feelings. Someone else may not respect you, and could care less if you don't like what they say or do. Now, I want you to understand that they have a choice. If they have no free choice, then this is no boundary. You cannot force someone else to protect your feelings, right? You cannot make them do something they don't want to do. If any action is taken......the action is yours, not theirs. What I mean is ...
.if someone does something that reflects their disrespect toward you, it's up to you as to how to respond to their disrespect to you. You can always walk away. That's a action. You can always hang up the phone when someone is speaking disrespectfully. That's an action. If someone is physically attacking you, you may need to fight back or get the police. Your priority is your own protection. Not in a cowardly sense, but in a way that shows you are standing up for yourself and you aren't going to simply lie down and let someone else wipe their poop on you. Make sense?
I'll use this for an example, but I'll warn you that many men have jumped into deep water b/c they thought stating this particular boundary would control their adulterous W. They were terribly mistaken. Then when things didn't go like they thought it would, they would try to wiggle out of it. Can't do it. You have to stick to your word, if you put it out there.
Boundary: "I will not stay in an open marriage."
She still has a choice. I want you to get this. She can choose to stay in the affair, or she can honor her H's boundary...
.but the choice is hers. The H is simply stating what he will do (or in this case, not do)...
..which is stay in an open M. If she's having a PA, she has put the M at risk......physically, emotionally, financially, morally, etc. She has opened the physical intimacy of the M to include someone else. Therefore, her H is protecting himself by getting out of that type of situation where he is compromising his beliefs, moral standards, STD risks, etc.
If she chooses to remain in the affair, then what does the H do? Does he repeat the boundary? No! Does he give her warnings? No! Does he try one more time to have a R talk? No! He does what he said. He stops staying in an open marriage. What does that mean? Well, he either separates or prepares for a divorce. (In-house separation is no good, b/c he's still staying with her.....giving her benefits of M.) Anyway, the action is up to him. If she suffers consequences (like the loss of living with her H), she
may decide to honor his boundary, or she may not. She has a free choice.
Do you see how the H is protecting himself from further disrespect? Do you see how he is not forcing her, and that she may decide she doesn't care if they get a D, and she may continue her A? It's not about the H controlling her. it's about him protecting himself.
One boundary is controlling the space. Although it is not verbally communicated, I'm not allowing her into my space because I reserve that for someone who wants to be in the MR, because she isn't, I'm removing -myself- away from her when I can without affecting the children. When children are involved, like dinnertime, I'm cordial.
Not sure about the part in bold. That sounds more punitive than self protection. Maybe it's just the way I'm interpreting it.
You can only control YOU. If you don't want to announce your boundary, that's okay. My question would be, is it effective? If so, then fine. If she invades your space, or doesn't catch on to what you are doing.....or why, then what? Walk further away...
.walk around in circles....? I mean, you have to determine if it's effective or not. I'm not saying it is a poor boundary, I'm just trying to get you to understand a little better.
I'm not the best at explaining things, but you'll get there. A lot of people confuse boundaries with ultimatums. They are not the same.
Adam, I'm glad Sandi jumped in because I wanted to say the same thing. She said it better, though. Which is good because I'm terrible at boundaries, and that's partly what got me here.
Time for you to order the Cloud & Townsend "Boundaries" book from Amazon with overnight shipping.
Thank you. Currently at work so will be limited on response replying by phone. I want to set the boundary about A. I'm not afraid of D. I want to be informed and I thought the idea was to give her space while it benefited us both. I do not want to have an open marriage. I would like to know what steps I can take leading up to that conversation to prepare myself. I need to be clear with her that if she can't honor the boundary that I want her to leave. Should I put it plainly like that? I think this is really the thing I've been wanting to do for myself so help me get to the deep side of the water so I can start swimming on my own. I don't think I need the book to pull the trigger on this but I will get it soon. Still need to talk to an attorney. She may stick to her guns and say she is not leaving the home or kids. Need to prepare for that, only other option is for me to leave right? Or stay and then do what?
Looking for input in this. I want to initiate it soon but not go blindly into it especially off emotion. It's what I've been wanting to do because for me it's the right thing to do. Sandi, you're right about IHS is not really separation to me. It's cake eating with no consequences for her.
Adam,
The only thing you can control is yourself so your boundary needs to be all about you as well as the actions if the boundary is not met. If she doesn't honor your boundary you cannot force her to leave and again it is all about you, it should be, "I will not remain in an open marriage and if that is not honored then I will leave in order to protect myself". Are you really prepared to do that if she continues the A at this point?
Yes, I was biding time financially. I am planning to speak to an attorney soon within the next week. I want to get all my ducks in a row and expect moving out. If that does happen, I'd be scraping by but I'd have my self-respect. Financially it might not be a smart move because the last issue with my car costed about 3k and if something happens with it again, I'll be in a bad situation. I thought it might be financially sound to wait a couple more months for a little cushion. That's the only thing holding me back and I see now that the boundary I've been wanting to set is on the A. I thought I've been dealing with my emotions well in not putting any focus on her but it's became a thing that is also preventing me from standing up for myself. I think for me, it starts here as hard as it could be for some.
Are you really prepared to do that if she continues the A at this point?
Think really hard about that.
Adam, you keep using the word boundary, but you're talking about an ultimatum. To paraphrase that old saying, you only point a gun at something you're willing to kill.
The way you describe it, you're ready to go to her and say, "You have two choices: stay in this marriage, or GTFO." Which do you think she'll pick? How will you feel after she picks it? How will you feel a week later?
Go back to DR. Re-read the section on LRT. Then take a closer look at "after LRT" starting on p. 218. Both of those are better options than an ultimatum, and yet you don't need either of them.
Yet.
I don't want to give her an ultimatum, I don't want to control. I think there's a better way to express it, and I have to think of the best way to convey the message. I've been wondering what that looks like. We don't talk about MR or anything. Just feels like in limbo, two room mates sharing time with the kids.
I have been doing everything on page 127 under LRT. Contact is minimal and I've stopped going out with her to eat out or to her family's house to eat.
is it not a good idea to initiate the dialogue at this point in time? What am I needing to wait on?
Originally Posted by Sandi2
So, you already know what she's gong to say, and you are going to wait for seven months to tell her no? Help me understand this. I know you love her, but you have to respect yourself more than this.
It may be early and maybe I am impatient or maybe I am confused at the direction of this. Help me put all the pieces together, I thought IHS rarely works and LBS dealing with WW need to do more than being nice, giving space and showing we've changed, things that can be shown during R, but for right now we need to be tough. Isn't making the stand what we want to do for several reasons? Isn't separation with her moving out the end goal since it has higher chance for R?
I know I could word it better than making it sound like an ultimatum but what am I missing, the true purpose of it?? Because right now it only comes across as an ultimatum?
I want to do what is necessary. Why is this hard to grasp for me, it's sounding confusing now. I'll order that book.
I think that because I've been a nice guy for so long that my self-respect gauge has been compromised and I feel like I need to work on that, fix it, get it back, earn it, and show her I won't put up with her disrespect to me. The thing is I will allow for change, I am hoping for change but if it doesn't happen, I'm not expecting it but it would be nice, I have to find out how much I can deal with before throwing in the towel. How can I be the rock and have my b@lls and self-respect? Shouldn't I not be fearful of losing her or D? She's with someone else alrdy, it is a loss. Ok stopping here, thinking too much into it.
I can do the last last resort and cut her off any interaction but isn't that going dark and better if alrdy separated?
I feel like if I push this, she will not honor the boundary, why would she? If she doesn't honor it, then we physically separate and work on it from there. I am ready but I am listening as well.
Woke up and thought about my words, asked myself am I giving myself time or am I acting again. I think I need to slow it down and when I want to do something, sit on it for a few days, share it and see what you think.
Maybe I need to ask myself what does standing mean to me? Is wanting to work on the marriage or waiting, is this allowing myself to be in an open marriage?
Its only a few weeks since Ive been here and I still have a lot to learn, to detach, to get a life. Not to say I wont pull the trigger, I know if I do she wont work on the marriage. If I know this, does this mean I am the one giving up if Im forcing this to happen?
Ill get the boundaries book and work on the lawyer ASAP.
Good! Remember that at your stage, there's still a LOT you can do to influence the outcome. You have SO much to work with. My suspicion is that if you burn it to the ground now, you'll regret it within a week, possibly within days. You're right, it's so early in this process. Your thoughts and actions are all based on emotions right now, even when you convince yourself that they aren't.
So, take that angry feeling you get, that frustration about "Nothing is happening, nothing is working," and channel it into goal-directed action. Ask yourself what standing means to you. Like, get a blank sheet of paper, and at the top of it write, "My goal is to save my marriage." Then try to come up with at least 10 reasons why. Then you could try to come up with another 10 reasons why the actions you felt like taking (last night) would move you further away from that goal.
Post the results here, even if you get stuck. Even if you only come up with 3 reasons for each, you've already generated a pile of ideas to work with. Then people here can offer more tailored advice. Otherwise all you'll hear us say over and over is, "No, don't do it," and nobody will really know why.
Adam, you keep using the word boundary, but you're talking about an ultimatum. To paraphrase that old saying, you only point a gun at something you're willing to kill.
The way you describe it, you're ready to go to her and say, "You have two choices: stay in this marriage, or GTFO." Which do you think she'll pick? How will you feel after she picks it? How will you feel a week later?
Exactly what I was going to say. Adam, I'm not saying not to do it, but take some time to think about it first. It is indeed an ultimatum you are giving her and ending the A will not be the choice she makes. But she may not be willing to move out either, and legally you can't kick her out. So where does that leave you? In the exact same living situation but looking like a fool because you gave her an ultimatum you couldn't enforce.
I do not want to have an open marriage.
I think it was Cadet that used to say this all the time- "most people who come here are already divorced, they just don't know it yet." What does that mean? It means in your W's eyes the M is already over. It doesn't matter that some legal piece of paper on file somewhere says otherwise, spiritually you're already D'd. An "open marriage" is one in which a loving couple willingly allows each other to have other partners and they do not consider it infidelity. I think you'd agree you are not in an open marriage by definition.
Looking for input in this. I want to initiate it soon but not go blindly into it especially off emotion. It's what I've been wanting to do because for me it's the right thing to do.
What do you mean about it being "the right thing to do"? To help you move on? To teach her a lesson? It's not really going to accomplish either of those.
Woke up and thought about my words, asked myself am I giving myself time or am I acting again. I think I need to slow it down and when I want to do something, sit on it for a few days, share it and see what you think.
Yes, exactly. Except I would argue weeks or even months instead of days.
Thank you burned and AS. I thought about what I said and knew I'd be going in a circle since she wouldn't end it and most likely wouldn't move out so thought what purpose does this serve. I have to think about the reason I do things if I do anything at all and then also the consequences , and as I go through those emotions I will try to share as much as I can here.
Good idea burned, I can work on a list about what standing means to me and share. I know Sandi mentioned making a mental list on the boundaries. Seems to be a big issue with me. I'll also look at some exercises in the DR book and see what applies to me now. Something productive but helps center me. I want to distinguish the "stuff" I can do later if we R from the small things I can do for myself now, not actions like GAL but thinking exercises.
Thank you again. On the drive in to work I was thinking abut what Sandi was saying about how to use these next 7 months, researching my tone, my body language, the subtle things , and what everyone is saying about GAL. I have a lot to work on for myself and I thank you all for the support.
One thing I learned through this process is that SO much happens SO quickly and SO many things change in SO many unexpected ways...that you should really be doing a lot of writing things down. Otherwise you end up reacting based on present emotions and you lose sight of the long-term picture. Writing it down helps you see progress, if any. Because it's so gradual that you won't notice it from week to week. And you seem like you process things by writing, so it helps you THINK, too.
So, every time you make a mental list, turn it into a physical list. Get a 3-subject notebook from Walmart for $1.50 and write everything down.
Remember that at your stage, there's still a LOT you can do to influence the outcome. You have SO much to work with
Can you elaborate on this? Still mean working on detaching and gal?
And you seem like you process things by writing, so it helps you THINK, too.
lol, it does appear that way. Kinda putting things down in black and white. I see it and agree with it or go back and ask myself what was I thinking. Also, It just feels good to let it all out, the good, the bad, the ugly.
Been skeptical of having something so personal around in case she starts to snoop. I'm hiding my books from her and will need a good safe hiding spot. Will start it. Been wanting to.
Forgive me, on break and wanted to reply to a lot more but on phone with these fat fingers.
[quote=burned] Remember that at your stage, there's still a LOT you can do to influence the outcome. You have SO much to work with
I started by not doing anything. I always wanted to initiate R talk, initiate OM talk, initiate D talk. When things started changing was when I GAL, started reading, concentrating on me, dropping expectations etc. Do a LOT.....of things for yourself.
Originally Posted by Sandi2
So, you already know what she's gong to say, and you are going to wait for seven months to tell her no? Help me understand this. I know you love her, but you have to respect yourself more than this.
It may be early and maybe I am impatient or maybe I am confused at the direction of this.
Perhaps we are not understanding each other. When I wrote the above quote, I was trying to figure out where you were going. Were you going to work on self improvements and at the end of 7 months, move out. You seem to think her answer was not going to be in favor of the MR at the end of the 7 month time frame. If you currently know you will move out at the end of 7 months, then why would you currently subject yourself to the disrespect she brings to the MR, while planning to leave at the end of 7 months? I was just trying to get a clearer picture of your intent and how you are thinking about all of this.
Help me put all the pieces together, I thought IHS rarely works and LBS dealing with WW need to do more than being nice, giving space and showing we've changed, things that can be shown during R, but for right now we need to be tough. Isn't making the stand what we want to do for several reasons? Isn't separation with her moving out the end goal since it has higher chance for R?
Well, that's sounds a little jumbled up. Refresh my memory. Has your relationship status been labeled as IHS? If not, then just don't agree to IHS. That's doesn't mean you can't have her leave the MBR b/c she is cheater.....it means you have not designated this relationship status to be IHS. BTW, the WW sometime takes it upon herself to designate the MR is currently IHS, b/c that would be lovely for her. I think that is the H's cue to tell her to move out if she wants a separation. IHS is serving her cake with lots & lots of icing.
Now, let's talk more about the WW having a PA and refusing to end things with OM. We usually think of a PA as being the ultimate show of betrayal and disrespect. I have never seen the IHS label succeed in bringing the W out of her wayward behavior or cause her to end a PA. However, I have seen a few successes with couples who never officially put the label of
IHSon the MR. It's rare, but not more rare than IHS success. I want to make it clear that telling your WW to leave the MBR and establishing or labeling the relationship as being an in-house separation are two entirely different things. (I discussed this in my first thread on the WW mindset.) I believe if it's going to be called or seen as M separation, then the couple needs to physically separate. I believe PS is more effective all the way around, if you are going to classified the MR as separated. Otherwise, I promise you that the WW will take full advantage of having the classification of IHS. Just don't put that label on it. It's like giving her a hall pass.
IHS is a
compromise. In my opinion, IHS places the H in an extremely difficult situation to establish/enforce the more major boundaries......b/c in some aspects, he is compromising by living under the same roof with his adulterous W. However, it's not that easy for some to financially afford another place, pay child support, etc. I realize all of that. I'm only telling you what I've observed. IDK the times I have read a LBH words on how IHS was "soul crushing". He has lost his self respect, self esteem, the lines are blurred and he stays perplexed over every little thing....not knowing exactly how he should handle some approaching situation. He wears himself out by trying to be what he thinks she wants......and it's not working. He is constantly focused on her, b/c she's right there under his roof, rubbing it in his face every day.
Is physical separation the "end goal" b/c it has higher chance of reconciliation? I would not say it is the end goal. Yes, I've seen it more successful, but there are no guarantees. In my opinion, it protects the H's self respect as well as demonstrate it. The end goal is reconciliation, if you want a successful MR. You may discover after living apart that you don't want reconciliation. It seems to help in clarifying the lines a lot better. You don't feel you are constantly compromising on a daily basis. It gives the WW a clearer picture of life without you (more about that later), and it kind of pushes her & OM closer......which causes her to place more demands on him, or she starts seeing him differently, and it often leads to the end of their A. I could go on & on about this, and may still not answer what you don't understand. I always tell the LBH to do nothing before he knows where he stands legally. Hey, the ideal situation (for separation) is to have her leave the home, but it's not that easy anymore. From what I've read, she's just as likely not to leave, and the law seems to be on her side. You have to make those considerations. Do what works for you.
I know I could word it better than making it sound like an ultimatum but what am I missing, the true purpose of it?? Because right now it only comes across as an ultimatum?
If you are asking me, I will tell you that it is a sense, intuition, the feel of your posts......whatever you want to call it. Some of us have been around a long time, and we recognize the sounds in newbies. We can tell when a new LBH is wanting to do something/anything to make the OM go away, bring the MR back together. He wants to get his W back! He wants to straighten out the mess. I think it is part of how men think, just like he feels he should pursue...
.b/c that's his nature. Newbies can't even see how they are pursuing, but we can. We can also tell when the newbie is grabbing at any straw to get the immediate results he desires. We can see how he puts expectations on outcomes. Call it experience, or whatever. One problem I see in LBH's is how they are rushing through all these things we tell them to read/study. They aren't really comprehending or retaining some important parts, b/c they are in a big hurry to find get through it (maybe skim over the content) and find the bottom answer. You may feel frustrated by some our posts, but I hope you'll stick with us, b/c we want to help.
I can't give you a guaranteed formula. I am familiar with the mindset of the WW, and I can tell you some things that will not work. All of us here come from a place of some experience and have learned from others. It doesn't mean everyone's M was saved, but we learned and are here sharing what we can.
I think that because I've been a nice guy for so long that my self-respect gauge has been compromised and I feel like I need to work on that, fix it, get it back, earn it, and show her I won't put up with her disrespect to me.
Very well worded. I get it. I've also learned that it is initially difficult for a nice-guy to balance his responses/actions. He comes here and reads about boundaries and standing up for himself, and he is ready to charge in there and give his WW the shock of her life. In other words, he feels fired up to take back his b@lls......at long last. But, this is where so many nice-guy H's open their mouth and insert their foot, b/c they are in a big hurry to show the WW a thing or two. That's why I told you about the H's who gave the boundary of not staying in an open M, and then they backed up and ate their words, which resulted in the WW feeling even more contempt. If you haven't ever enforced a small boundary, what makes you think you can enforce major one? I'm just saying that maybe you need to practice on a couple of less extreme before jumping into the deep end of the pool. I also a lot of nice-guy H's using way too many words when they voice a boundary. They talk it to death. Make sense? I'm not going back on what I said about separation, or anything else. I've just seen too many newbies jump off into something they didn't fully grasp. So, just take a little time to get this information down right. That's all I'm saying.
I can do the last last resort and cut her off any interaction but isn't that going dark and better if alrdy separated?
The way I understand "going dark" is as if you've dropped off the planet. Which, I think is impossible when you are living under the same roof, and when you co-parent a child. Some people see going dark differently. You don't have to go completely dark in order to apply the LRT. How do you see implementing the last resort?
is it not a good idea to initiate the dialogue at this point in time?
Back to boundaries, this was said previously, regarding boundaries. My answer is that you don't have a "dialogue" about your boundary. If you want to
state what the boundary is, that's fine. But you don't have a conversation about it. I promise you it will turn into a relationship talk, and that is not the purpose of stating a boundary. Beside, she's not going to pay any attention to more talk. She's going to watch your action. It's not completely necessary to voice your boundary, but it is necessary for you to act upon it if it is disrespected. Does that make sense? In other words, I'm pretty sure she has a good idea of your boundaries already. She just doesn't honor them. Voicing the boundary to her is mainly to alert her that she's walking on very thin ice. She can't pretend she "didn't know". Personally, I think most every WW is going to test the H's boundaries. It's part of her wayward nature......b/c she doesn't think he has the b@lls to do anything if she chose to ignore it. Therefore, you need to be prepared for the worst and know your plan of action if she tries to compromise that boundary. And by the way, she doesn't have to agree with your boundary. But if she compromises or ignores it, then you act. No warnings, no negotiations.
I feel like if I push this, she will not honor the boundary, why would she?
Look, it will go one of two ways. She will honor the boundary and you don't have to follow up on doing some action to enforce it. Or, she won't honor it and you'll act to protect yourself by enforcing the boundary. You enforce it by backing up your word. Following through with whatever consequences of breaking the boundary. Remember the circle is around you. You are protecting Adam's respect.
I don't know how to explain this in the most accurate way, maybe someone else will offer to word it better. IMHO, your actions should result in consequences for the obvious disrespect for you (whatever that personal boundary may be). Everyone should have personal boundaries about how they will be treated by others. The consequences of dishonoring your personal boundary should fit the crime, so to speak. In other words, you save the most major action (on your part) for the most grievous show of disrespect (on their part). In a MR, for example, a physical affair would call for a pretty major move on the part of the H. Although it's not really about
punishing her. It's not your job to execute punishment. It
is your job to protect your respect and feelings as a man. She may not see your action as any type of personal loss or punishment as a result of your action taken. Enforcing boundaries ties to exercising tough love and taking your b@lls back as a man. I hope this makes sense, and doesn't sound as if I'm talking out of both sides of the mouth. If you are confused, keep asking questions.
I feel like if I push this, she will not honor the boundary, why would she? If she doesn't honor it, then we physically separate and work on it from there.
I'm not trying to knit-pick your words, but you don't "push" it. Setting a boundary is not giving a threat. You don't continue to repeat/voice a particular boundary as if it's a warning, and show no action when it's ignored or compromised. You don't follow her around the house making grand pronouncements about numerous boundaries. It's not like something you try to hold over her head. You've set a personal boundary, and
there are no negotiations. She has a choice to honor it or not. If not, then you follow through by an action that protects you from the disrespectful behavior from her.
As for physically separating and "work on it from there"...
.if this is the route you take for enforcing a boundary, then do NOT leave her with the assumption that the separation is to work on the M. She has to believe you are completely done with her and her disrespect. That is very important. If you offer to work on the M at the time she learns you are physically separating then it sounds as if you are bargaining. No bargaining, no promises, no compromising your values and integrity. Trust me when I say that if & when she decides she seriously wants to make it work with you.....she will seek you out and want to know what she has to do to save the M (more about that part, later). That's probably not going to happen until she goes through some things attached to her waywardness. Although you hope the MR will eventually be reconciled, you cannot tell her that's why you are separating. Your main purpose is to protect your own feelings and not compromise with her lack of respect for you. This is taking a stand. Protecting your boundaries should be the motivation behind your action. It's not a gimmick to get her to end the A, or stop contacting OM and work with you on the MR.
I want to remind you not to try and repeat to her the words you read here. She'll know it's not your own words, and it will sound a little preachy or fake.
Were you going to work on self improvements and at the end of 7 months, move out. You seem to think her answer was not going to be in favor of the MR at the end of the 7 month time frame. If you currently know you will move out at the end of 7 months, then why would you currently subject yourself to the disrespect she brings to the MR, while planning to leave at the end of 7 months? I was just trying to get a clearer picture of your intent and how you are thinking about all of this.
I mulled over that . In short, I don't know what is going to happen. I know I've been reacting to things. I know I'm still confused. I don't know what she will say at that point. I know I've said it before, I am using this time for me. I should have no expectations, but I do want to be prepared and be mindful of how some things might play out. I don't know in 7 months what either of us is going to say or do. I have this general idea that because she wanted the separation, she's going to experience the separation, I was going to carry it into the future. When 7 months is up, if she wanted to R, if she said lets D, or whatever she says, I was going thru with the separation because it was the natural course of things. The conversation would be similar to I'm sorry but in this last 7 months of watching our dynamics and soul searching, I've been getting used to the separation(not having her support, not having her around, not having her to talk to), I know I deserve (better)someone who is willing to put in the work for our M, someone I can trust, someone who won't cheat on me or compromise the M , and because she wanted it, she got it. That would be honest, and is the direction I want to go in. It doesn't give me any kudo points for standing up to her before that but I shouldn't care about her thoughts to begin with should I?
I was biding my time. I would have hoped to detach enough so that the wave of emotions all coming back doesn't drown me.
(I know you responded to me on what I should be doing in the 7 months after this, and everything is through the lens of respect, however I'll talk more below)
If you currently know you will move out at the end of 7 months, then why would you currently subject yourself to the disrespect she brings to the MR, while planning to leave at the end of 7 months?
As for the disrespect she brings to MR. I feel like it'll still be present now or if we separated. I think in any case, the disrespect is there so I can't use that as some type of driving force. After all, aren't my actions for me, and not based on if I think x,y,z is going to gain me more respect from her? Wouldn't that sort of thinking be expectations? I remember no expectations, no looking over my shoulder, no wondering if she will ever notice .
If she disrespects me in her own ways, as you've pointed out before, as her H I should be aware of when she does this, then I would have to let her know how I feel about it. If she crosses that, I am going to challenge her every time. Protecting myself right? Small boundary?
Sandi, you made a comment on IHS affecting LBS because it lowers their self-esteem with a lot of other negative feelings. I think because my W has not gone full blown all out with the exposure, I am not dealing with what a lot of other people are dealing with. I think I may be feeling somewhat sheltered from not knowing the truth. Don't get me wrong, my mind could be racing and thinking of that 100man GangB$%$, but it's all the same. I used to date troubled girls who had a "history" alrdy in their teens(and I hated people who judged them) so it would unreasonable for me to hold this woman to some different standard. Old wife, new wife, whatever.. Part of me thinks because she never went crazy in her youth, that she is getting a taste of that now and she likes it. I can understand that and its a shame, Not saying I condone doing that and breaking up a family, but I can understand what other individuals go through. It's like with the weight gain. When I was fit, I had a brother who could never lose the weight. He'll get depressed and eat and eat and eat. I was not nice and I think about those things from when I was younger. Sometimes we have to be in their shoes, its not always easy. Hope she will figure it out with a little tough love.
Dealing with the IHS and when it comes to my self-respect....this is how i see it, I've wondered about my sitch and ask myself if I "need" to know for certain, I could be doing one more thing, one more snooping here, hiring a PI, grabbing her phone, calling the phone# she texted, I could be but for what if I alrdy know enough. I hope this is enough self-respect to get me through where I can stand for the M. When I see myself wanting to stand for the MR, and not continue to stoop to certain levels, I feel like I'm good. I won't let her actions define me. I won't let other people's actions and words define me. Just getting into this standing, I see a lot of ppl going are you CRAZY?! I will remember to trust nothing she says, I wont allow her to trigger me or bait me.
You don't have to go completely dark in order to apply the LRT. How do you see implementing the last resort?
I've read people's posts on how they interact with their S. Let me say, I am trying the LRT. Our contact is bare minimum and there is hardly any talking, NO conversations. We have the board for the kids, we don't go out to eat anymore, we do have some lunch or dinners with the kids but we don't chit chat. We don't sit on the couch and do anything like a family besides eat at home. I help with the kids home work, help the little one with the bath and when its lights out, that's it. The only thing coming up for the family this weekend is to pick up our glasses. Other than that, I plan to be out. We don't argue, we don't laugh. She may say you have mail, then I'd say okay. No texts or calls. no emails. I transfer her money and she pays the bills. I'm not angry, i don't carry an attitude, I'm polite.
In my head I'm thinking let me catch her saying something crazy, I'd check it, then move on. That is how I want to spend the rest of these 7 months, less and less time with her. The more she would act crazy, the more opportunities I would have. I don't know how else to be. Emotionally I'm fine for the most part. Sometimes I get emotional when I read other people's sitch and think about mine but then again, when its me and my thoughts of her, block it block it block it block it is what I tell myself. Draw my son's picture, Think happy thoughts. Then things go away. I don't know if this is a mechanism or not. I don't think the worst is over yet. I hope to be strong enough to deal with whatever is to come.
I deal with things in black and white, I will admit, I sometimes need things written down as if an expert would say if I were in your shoes, this is what I'd do.
Also, I make sure not to regurgitate -anything- I've learned to the W. The last conversation I had with her was me trying to tell her I knew something was going on, and I knew alrdy during the convo that it wasn't going anywhere, it served no purpose. Won't happen again. It feels funny to learn something and want to run to the other person and want to share it as if I had come up with this new idea. I put it this way, it aint hard to google for help so if they aren't googling it, they definitely don't want the help. I get it that we only wished they would feel what we do, or see what we see , or admit they were wrong. It aint happening. When I was angry within the first two months, I don't know why I didn't kick her out then, but I shared with her two things, one was a Jehovah Witness pamphlet I thought was a sign. When she left to pick up breakfast one day and the people just miraculously showed up at my door. I said oh wow, a sign from God. I must show her it says thou must obey "insert me here"... NOPE. She probably said something like WTF is this SH1t you want me to read. So the last thing I asked her to read was a story about a man who divorced his wife and were at least amicable to spend time together for their children, to share a lunch or dinner. I told her maybe one day we could get to that point then.
Hey Adam, I'm just touching base in response to your comment on my sitch. Yeah I remember the three month mark and that was when I moved out of the MBR in disgust and was still snooping and pursuing. I really didn't start db'ing until that point and it really started with coming here, reading, researching and acting on my own instead of waiting for WW to come around. That's really when things turned around and realized the person I had become after 18 years of MR and saw that I too wasn't happy. Then I started to work on how I was going to change...and it all happened very slowly, I set goals physically and got myself in the best shape of my life, went shopping for myself for new clothes, planned small GAL activities and met new people which was very big I believe because I was happy with the small circle I had before.
Over the last few weeks WW has pulled back from her girls gone wild lifestyle. She now says she has a hard time leaving the house from her stay at home job and isn't sure if its depression or that she wants to spend more time with me. I have no idea if she is in contact with OM and I honestly don't care...if she wants to discuss that I will but like everyone says you have to get to the point of rope drop. I am not married right now, that was a contract with terms that were broken and is just a piece of paper. WW has said many things lately and has been acting like she is fighting to move towards R but I am sure is still fighting the addiction of the A as well......that I am not getting involved in...not my fight.
You asked whether I could take her back and love her again and I just won't know until we get to a point where we have to make a decision. She has a long way to go with therapy and I have repressed any of the questions that I need answered about the A, OM etc and have no interest pursuing them right now. I am continuing to do my thing and am encouraging W to get out again and see her "friends". The only thing that matters is that I will be a better person after this is over whether its R or D and my kids will as well. It is very hard to get to this point and I am over the anger that I had for my WW. We know that we will always love each other but in a different way just because of our time together but we are just not sure if there will ever be a new relationship.
Keep pushing through Adam, I know it is tough. Work on yourself, I know its a cliche but it is the truth. You will start seeing your own light at some point and realize that you will be good with or without her.