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Posted By: lusa The bomb woke me up, but she still won't talk - 11/04/18 02:13 PM
Old thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...at&Number=2791274&gonew=1#UNREAD

Thanks Steve, your encouragement has been much appreciated.

Over the last 3 weeks, there's been more of the same behavior between myself and W. We went out to lunch on our own this week and both really enjoyed each others company. She's been touching my arm almost every-time she talks to me, calling me pet names and still bringing up all of us moving to a bigger house and showing me houses she's found.

I've just had the week off work to coincide with the kids school holidays and done plenty of GAL activities with them leaving W to work. I read a comment by AS regarding gifts given to the LBS and valuing time with my kids and making memories has certainly been one of mine. Still working on keeping my 180's going regarding alcohol and anger and sticking to the 37 rules.

Now I'm back in the MBR we have been going to bed early together and watching tv, she has been very slowly moving closer to me, culminating in her initiating sex the other night.

This has happened exactly 300 days since BD but still with no R talk. I'm sure her EA is over and it seems that she has stopped all disrespectful and rebellious behavior. I know she still has a lot of internal work to do regarding her resentment towards me but this is definitely going in the right direction.

I'm concentrating on not changing and starting to pursue as a result of this. I feel that thanks to my DB'ing I have finally managed to create a space where she feels safe enough with me to let some of the ice around her heart melt a bit and start to let go of some of her resentment.
I am looking for some advice. My WW seems to have finally come to her senses, her words, actions and attitude are all consistently showing respect and plans for our future together.

She is pressuring me to agree to start the process of moving to a bigger house together. The problem I have is we haven't spoke about anything that has happened this year. I haven't initiated any R talk as I have been following the 37 rules, she hasn't as I think she is scared, mainly of me bringing up her EA again.

It seems like she would be quite happy to forget everything and pick up where we left off pre BD. Thanks to this board I now know this would be a mistake and leave it open for the same thing to happen again. My plan is to say something along the lines of:

Before agreeing to start the house buying process I would need to know you are 100% committed to making our marriage work and will do whatever is necessary for that to happen including MC.

Then leave the difficult discussions for MC where I would tactfully tackle the issue of her EA and her underlying resentment that caused it.

I am really scared of saying the wrong thing and backsliding from my hard earned progress, thanks to my D'bing she's really relaxed around me ATM and I'd hate to undo that and watch the walls go up again.

Any advice would be really welcome.
Originally Posted by lusa

She is pressuring me to agree to start the process of moving to a bigger house together.


Allow me to be blunt. No, no, no NO NO NOOOOO OH HELL NO. I would wait at least a year before thinking about that. She has a LOT of work to do before then. You too. IC, MC, communications workshops. Discussions of what happened, and how to prevent it from happening again.

Quick story- my brother's W kept pressuring him to get a bigger house. He didn't want it, she did. He didn't think they could afford it. She was an accountant and kept telling him to trust her. So they bought it. A few months later she BD'd him, said she had been in an A and thought that a bigger house would "change her mind" but it didn't work after all. Your W could very well be thinking something similar, that a big new house will change her mind. But it won't.

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Before agreeing to start the house buying process I would need to know you are 100% committed to making our marriage work and will do whatever is necessary for that to happen including MC.


I wouldn't agree to it at all. Just flat out tell her that she has destroyed your trust and it's going to take a long time for her to get it back again, and until that time there will be no large purchases.

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I am really scared of saying the wrong thing and backsliding from my hard earned progress, thanks to my D'bing she's really relaxed around me ATM and I'd hate to undo that and watch the walls go up again.


Don't be afraid to stand firm and stick to your principals. If that makes her walls go up then what does that say about her? What does it say about her motivations for getting back together?
lusa,

go back and read my threads. I am not discounting ANYTHING AS said. Nothing. However, every sitch is different. I was in a similar situation.

One of the other anti-divorce experts I read said that sometimes the problems in the MR will go away when you clean up your side of the house. That yes, we can trigger the waywardness in our spouse.

Here was my timeline:

2014 My W and I started to look for a new house. We couldn't agree on any houses for 3 years.
2017 June My W gives up the house hunting since we couldn't agree on a house.
2017 Sept My W finds an online singing app and starts down the path to waywardness.
2017 Dec 23 I initiate BD when I find messages between her and a guy on the singing app.
2017 Dec-2018 Feb we are in the thick of our sitch.
2018 Feb mid month she has her last rebellion against the MR.
2018 March we start Ring and piecing in earnets.
2018 April She resumes her house hunting.

Note, that my bad husband behavior really got worse beginning in 2012, and continued through BD.

When I posted in April that we were considering buying a couple of the houses she had found, I got a lot of "WHAT THE BLANK ARE YOU THINKING?" responses.

I honestly think that the stopping of the house-hunting was the start of her waywardness. By time she found the singing app she was looking for something, anything to latch onto. My 180s after BD start to have an effect, she started to back off her BD pronouncements. But that is a difficult thing for WWs, and they don't do it overnight.

AS the other anti-D expert said, sometimes when you just focus on fixing things, the problems go away. Yes we got into MC, and did a lot of work over weeks and months, but a lot of her waywardness just dissipated as she turned back to the MR. In fact, she even said things like that. "As things improve the thoughts of leaving aren't as exciting, and the thoughts of staying aren't as negative."

When she got back into fulltime house-hunting to me that was a sign that the waywardness was gone. And as you said, she just kind of went back to things that she was into pre-waywardness. Her commitment to church returned. Her commitment to coparenting our daughter returned. Her talking about the futrue, together, as a family, returned.

lusa, AS might be 100% right. I don't know your sitch. My sitch was such that I knew, financially, I could handle the new house without any problems, even if we split up. Yes, my Plan B was that I agreed to a house that I could afford even with a D. So make sure to be smart, and protect yourself. But listen to your gut. You know your sitch better than we do!

Make sure you are IC to make sure your 180s are permanent. Make sure you are in MC and that she is willing to fully do the work the MC assigns. Make sure you do not bite off more in a new house that you couldn't chew if she were to go wayward again and bolt.

Brace for the "ARE YOU CRAZY?!?" responses. It worked in my sitch. I am typing this response in our new, beautiful home as we speak. It can work, but make sure you will be okay first and foremost.

Thank you so much guys for the wise advice. I have just ruminated on your replies, nothing has changed in my sitch, I'm starting to realise that buying a house, whether we get to MC or not and many other issues that fly round my head on a daily basis aren't really that important, compared with the state of her heart.

This recent reply from Blu to someone else really fits my sitch and is exactly what i needed to hear. This has kept my feet on the ground and made the realise the grim reality of my sitch, when it's all so tempting to pretend we are piecing. We are nowhere near, I need to keep it real, not forget what's happened and not slide back into a pretend sham MR. The time will certainly come when she asks what she needs to do, I'll tell her and then it will be her choice, she'll either do hard work or she won't. Thanks to this board, I now know I will be OK eventually either way.
Thanks Blu x

Originally Posted by BluWave

I firmly believe that in order to have a genuine M, both people must be willing to look at themselves, be willing to change, and have remorse for the pain they have caused. I see this from you, but she seems far from even admitting to what she has done. She has given you no reason to trust her. So while you might be able to do some patchwork here and there and get her into counseling, she does not yet have an open heart. SHE IS STILL WAYWARD! Sure you have made your mistakes, we all have. That does not entitle her to have an affair. And she hasn't even admitted to it? We all teach people how to treat us. How do you want to be treated by your W? I ask you again, how do you think you deserve to be treated?

Some posters here think they can come here, follow the rules, and somehow win their S back. Their only focus is that if their M is restored, they will somehow have a better life. That is not how life works! Life is what WE make of it. They also are so internally wounded they refuse to see their reality. Truth is, you cannot force someone to love you or respect you. THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE! Don't you guys want to be in a M where you are loved and respected? Isn't that what M is about? Having someone physically there is not a real partnership...... Down the road, if and only if, she shows you a woman that is remorseful and committed to you, then you can consider if you want her back.

Blu
Blu nailed it. And I am struggling with exactly what she is talking about. Ring and piecing is hard and difficult. Much harder and difficult than divorcing and moving on. I don't think many LBSs get that. They think "I will make these changes, DB her back, and everything will be unicorns and rainbows." So not true.

If your goal is to keep your spouse, then you run the risk of reliving the unhappiness YOU as the LBS experienced prior to BD. Sometimes your spouse is giving you a "get out of jail free" card with their waywardness and infidelity, especially for those of us that are religious and believe the D is only allowed in cases of adultery.

Too be honest, I'd rather live the rest of my life alone than go back to my MR 1.0 circa 2014-2017.
Originally Posted by Steve85
Blu nailed it. And I am struggling with exactly what she is talking about. Ring and piecing is hard and difficult. Much harder and difficult than divorcing and moving on. I don't think many LBSs get that. They think "I will make these changes, DB her back, and everything will be unicorns and rainbows." So not true.

If your goal is to keep your spouse, then you run the risk of reliving the unhappiness YOU as the LBS experienced prior to BD. Sometimes your spouse is giving you a "get out of jail free" card with their waywardness and infidelity, especially for those of us that are religious and believe the D is only allowed in cases of adultery.


As an LBS that's been my thought for a long time now, trying to piece back the destruction W has brought...seems like it would be total H and if lucky, the "R glue" would hold forever. Not that I want D, but moving on for sure seems like the most healthy thing I can do.

-B
Though I’m not (yet) to S / D, I have found myself looking ahead to whatever (and whoever) comes next. My orientation is shifting, whether it is to Current Wife 2.0, or looking forward to another woman in time.

I don’t want S / D (who does?), and while I know it’s not totally up to me, I think about how others refer to my sitch as ‘having been fired as being H,’ and I think to myself ‘why would I want to come back to this?’ Especially with how she is being mentally and emotionally.
Nothing much has changed in my sitch - I've been consistent with my changes and we've been spending lots of enjoyable time together. Then yesterday i snooped and now I'm tail-spinning into oblivion.

No wonder my WW doesn't want to talk or consider R, preferring to just rug-sweep and pretend.
It is because she is still deeply in love with OM, and unfortunately as this is her ex H, with shared history I don't think she's ever going to get over it.

She writes notes before talking to him, I've seen a few before and posted them here. Unfortunately I snooped yesterday and found another note, they are always around cutting off contact, and this is in response to cutting off contact.

This one said.

"What would you do? I can only assume if I saw you again I'd feel the same. On that last day I definitely did. Bye babe, love you.

That deep connection went 2 ways. It was so powerful I couldn't cope with it, so I stopped it. I have always regretted it. I failed and have regretted it ever since.

I will be back in 10 years when **illegible** will be less"


So she loves him, is trying to cut off contact but has promised she'll be back with him in 10 years - which is when our youngest will have left home.

I have been back at home as a family, with her pretending everything is ok, listening to her talking about our future and getting on well for six months now. I've been biding my time waiting for her to commit to R and then M/C. After reading this I feel so completely hopeless now. There's no way I will be able to stay with her now counting down the time to BD2. I need to let her go and move on more than ever - this hurts really bad.

She's noticed I'm upset (not good), I've already let slip that I read something I shouldn't have (not good), now I'm dreading going home, I think I'm going to have to tell her what I've read. Acting as-if with a PMA is going to be really hard when I'm dying inside, but I'm going to try for the kids. I'm really close to filing myself now, I've endured 13 months of pain and the worst of it has just come flooding back.

I just don't know what to do.[i][/i]
L,

Wow that is tough man. Living your life with that ten year internal clock ticking down.

There is a saying on here that usually rings true. Things have to get worse before they get better.

I just want to tell you that your kids are my kids age and they will be fine as long as you and your W are able to treat each other with respect.

Hang in there man!
What do you want to happen with her ultimately? A good MR?

You have two options. One, tell her you know and that you aren't going to live like this. She is free to leave the home to go do what she wants and you will move on.

Two, tell her you read something about overcoming tough situations and it upset you. Be brief and allow this to deflect your earlier emotions that she detected. A lot can change in 10 years.

I hope R2C comes along with some advice.
Man, that is rough just to read, let alone to live through. I'm sending a virtual hug.

It really comes down to what your boundaries are. Are you willing to live as a Plan B and hope that she changes her mind again? It's a cliche here but love is a choice and an action. Your W is choosing OM and acting accordingly. You can choose to keep loving her and spending your emotional energy on her, or you can choose to walk away. I can't tell you what the right choice is. I will say that I have learned that we only have a short time here and you can spend your emotional energy and love on someone who isn't worth it - someone who is an emotional leach or someone who can't or won't reciprocate. Realizing that I was free to spend my emotional energy elsewhere was a breakthrough for me, and really helped me move forward.
After my XW moved out of our house and we separated she ran into one of my friends at a local restaurant and made some comment to him that she did me a favor by Ding me now versus in 10 years.

Knowing what I know now if that is what she truly believed then I am grateful. It [censored] no doubt but you don't want to waste your time in that situation. Being on the other side I am glad my XW did what she did.

It is coming up on 2 years for me since she moved out and while she runs hot and cold she is very much still in her fog or whatever you want to call it.
That really [censored]. But more the reason to keep the solid DB up. I will never trust my WW again. Because of that I am expecting D and will initiate if I have to. I will not allow myself to be hurt like that again.
Thank you so much everyone for all your considered replies, i feel honored to have had so much contribution on my thread. This really is a wonderfully powerful place, the fact that strangers are giving their loving advice to each other in such time of desperate need really strengthens my faith in humanity.


To update my sitch:

I've been continuing to snoop gather intel and found further info. This time it is that the EA started at least 12 months pre-DB, so now its been 2 or 3 years. This along with the note i found promising to "restart the A in 10 years when they'll be less upset" has finally pushed me somewhere I haven't been before.

I've realized why BD didn't make sense and how she successfully got me to take the fall for her EA. Telling everyone I had to move out because of my behavior when in fact our R had been deteriorating for so long with no chance to fix it due to her choice and action to continue the EA.

I now for the first time have more understanding of what happened. I feel less guilty and more hurt. I've found something worse than the deceit and it's the long-term deceit. I've been shocked again, this time into properly having to make sure I am ok and will be 100% ok with or without her at any point in my future.

After a few days of spinning I settled down and the resignation that I was completely alone came over me. After sitting with that realization it eventually became warming, dependable and secure. I don't know if it can be called dropping the rope yet but the shift I've experienced has been really positive and empowering. I have no trust in my W and no security in my M but I can trust and depend on ME. My 180's that were started with the sole focus on winning her back, have now become permanent and are now just for ME too.

So is the glass half empty or half full? What could be seen as a hopeless situation, especially with my new intel can easily be seen the other way.

I found out her last goodbye to OM was actually sent in November and since then she has been NC. Apart from the huge elephant in the room, which is not one word said about her A, our M or R, her actions and other words say she is trying and committed. Everything else in our relationship is better than it's been for a long-time prior to DB. We are cooperating and enjoying each others support and company well in all areas from parenting to cooking to work projects. She calls me my pet name most of the time, hugs me before work, leans on me in bed, and shows no disrespect. Things are certainly on the right trajectory.

However she has deceived me for a long time, made a horrible last commitment to OM, continues to keep her silence on everything, shows no guilt or remorse. I believe she is currently scared of R talk / MC and will avoid it due to her EA and her current feelings for OM. She's going through withdrawals, she doesn't know what I know and I will keep it that way so I can judge if she's truthful if she ever claims to come completely clean.

I have no idea what will happen but I am no longer dependent on the outcome. Over the last 13 months I've learnt to have more patience than I thought possible. R2C's signature "What is best for my kids is best for me" stays at the front of my mind and makes it easy for me to know what to do at the moment. I hope this new confidence is permanent and will allow me to watch my WW's future actions from this more detached, amused view-point rather than the old distraught place.

I'm aware of the huge amount of work we both need to do for a successful R and currently doubtful that she will ever make it through this long list.

Continue NC with OM
Initiate R Talk
Want/Agree to R
Attend MC (for the right reasons)
Tell the truth about her EA
Feel true remorse
Lose her resentment
Send permanent end message to OM
Offer a transparency plan

Even if she did all this then we'd be only starting to have to face the very hard work of piecing. So I don't hold out much hope for our M, the difference is I'm not going to run away into some sort of A with an OW. For everyone's sake I will stand and work through whatever is in front of me instead.
An interesting update, well for me at least.

I fixed something for an older relative of hers, In the end I had to contact the relative because she forgot. It then led to me stating in the discussion something along the lines of shes not the same as she used to be and has become more selfish, I also brought up the fact she doesn't mention her "simple faith" or moral integrity anymore. She took great offense to this, and had that face of thunder that in the old days would have led to a huge argument and days of bad feeling.

We then ate a meal she'd cooked together which wasn't very comfortable and then she brought up the subject of money again. Basically asking me to put more in the joint pot so she can put more in a pension and we can get a bigger house etc.

I have been thinking about this for a long time and so finally said that I can't make decisions on these sort of things when we haven't discussed reconciling and she hasn't committed to doing what she can to make things work.
She responded with something along the lines of we are getting on much better so I reiterated that the verbal commitment from her and our joint decision to R will have to come before any other discussions on our future. She made it clear she understood so I am really pleased I finally got this point said after all this time.

I've been re-reading Sandi's threads and I am seeing that she would be happy to slide under the door, rug sweep and pick up from where we left off. I'm so pleased I have become aware enough to not let this happen. I require commitment and honesty from my wife and I'm not ashamed to hold out for both or eventually choose to D if they are not forthcoming.

Anyway what would normally have resulted in arguing and days of bad feeling was quickly resolved as she instigated creative time with both of us and the kids painting and story telling, and then started calling me by my pet name and making it into a picture. It was a lovely hour for us all and I was surprised, I thought at a minimum the evening would have been shot down.

Later on she asked if I minded if she watched a tv program in the bedroom with D11, I said of course not, when have i ever got pouty about things like that. I want you to be happy...................and then couldn't help murmuring "it's so damn important to you!" We then had a good laugh as she jokingly told me I always spoil things by not shutting up in time.

I feel I just successfully stood my ground and gained a little bit more respect from her. The truth is I don't know if i can fully commit to R with her, there hasn't been much need to think about it when she has hurt me so badly, refused to talk about it and showed me no commitment or reasons to trust her.

I know I can choose to trust her everyday even though many parts of me are shouting "no"
I know i can choose to love her and act accordingly every day because i now know from this board that love is a daily choice and action.
I know I am behind, so I may touch on things that have already been discussed.

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Now I'm back in the MBR we have been going to bed early together and watching tv, she has been very slowly moving closer to me, culminating in her initiating sex the other night.

This has happened exactly 300 days since BD but still with no R talk. I'm sure her EA is over and it seems that she has stopped all disrespectful and rebellious behavior. I know she still has a lot of internal work to do regarding her resentment towards me but this is definitely going in the right direction.


You know, Lusa, when we say no R talk, we don't mean to imply that you are to NEVER speak of the relationship again. smile We stress "no R talk" so much, I guess people think it is off the table even if they are trying to reconcile. However, I think your problem here is that you don't know where the MR stands. Like some other board members, you are stuck in limbo b/c you don't feel like it is really a reconciliation, but you are in the MBR and having sex.....and she's being nicer.

If you have waited on your W to bring up the things you feel need to be discussed.......she may NEVER go there. Why? B/c most WW's don't desire to talk about their betraying, lying, deceitful, sneaky, unfaithful, backstabbing, selfish, disrespectful, rebellious, resentful.........(do I need to go on?)..........wayward behavior. She doesn't have a problem talking about how you made mistakes in the past, but she doesn't want to have her's pointed out. I'm just saying that after nearly a year, and you moved successfully into the MBR.........and having sex.........don't you feel there has been some point in time that the elephant in the room should have been addressed? Maybe I haven't read far enough yet, so have you told her what you would need in order to really reconcile? If not, then IMHO, it's as if you are hanging suspended between heaven and hell. IDK......it's just me wondering if that is okay with you. I was asked to give my thoughts on another similar sitch, and afterwards, I have decided that person had rather keep things suspended rather than follow the suggestions given. I also saw someone who was set in their ways for many years, and just between us......I felt like that was the problem for not following the advice. Anyway......I don't want to see this MR stay in the condition until both people are too set in their ways to change.

Another reason I believe it is important to know where the relationships stands at the point, is so you will know whether or not to continue following the 37 rules. Once the couple reconciles and is piecing the M back together, the 37 rules are put aside. I have a thread (with BluWave contributing) to those things to follow during Piecing. But currently, you can't really define your MR as in Piecing, can you? Has your WW told you she no longer wants to end the M, or get a D or whatever she may have originally said?

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No wonder my WW doesn't want to talk or consider R, preferring to just rug-sweep and pretend.
It is because she is still deeply in love with OM, and unfortunately as this is her ex H, with shared history I don't think she's ever going to get over it.

She writes notes before talking to him, I've seen a few before and posted them here. Unfortunately I snooped yesterday and found another note, they are always around cutting off contact, and this is in response to cutting off contact.


This is not just another man. it's her XH. Do they have children together? You have children with her, and she's willing to wait till they leave home to reunite with her XH? That's not love, that's a fantasy! If she went back to him, she'd want you as her OM.

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I have been thinking about this for a long time and so finally said that I can't make decisions on these sort of things when we haven't discussed reconciling and she hasn't committed to doing what she can to make things work.
She responded with something along the lines of we are getting on much better so I reiterated that the verbal commitment from her and our joint decision to R will have to come before any other discussions on our future. She made it clear she understood so I am really pleased I finally got this point said after all this time.


Great! But you can't leave it there. Has she made a verbal commitment? If so, hold her to it by requiring that both of you attend therapy for couples dealing with emotional affair with previous spouses. I mean, I'm sure other things will be addressed, but XH is the ELEPHANT.

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I've been re-reading Sandi's threads and I am seeing that she would be happy to slide under the door, rug sweep and pick up from where we left off. I'm so pleased I have become aware enough to not let this happen. I require commitment and honesty from my wife and I'm not ashamed to hold out for both or eventually choose to D if they are not forthcoming.


I'm so happy those threads have helped you. I do want to look back at list you made.

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I'm aware of the huge amount of work we both need to do for a successful R and currently doubtful that she will ever make it through this long list.

Continue NC with OM - Absolutely, but there needs to be a "how-to plan"......like transparency.
Initiate R Talk - I addressed this earlier in the post. You may go the rest of your life, if you wait for her to address the elephant in the room. You've been living a lie, b/c you have not addressed her affair and have allowed her to rug sweep.
Want/Agree to R - I thought you said she had committed? Either she is in or out.....can't have it both ways.
Attend MC (for the right reasons) - That is a requirement you should make to staying in the MR.
Tell the truth about her EA - I don't think she will, without either the MC forcing the issue or you reveal you know the truth.
Feel true remorse - That is her inner work. You can require an apology from her. You can require her to show respect. You cannot require that she has particular feelings. It's kind of like inner spiritual work she has to do.
Lose her resentment - You can require that she not demonstrate resentment in how she talks/actions/attitude, which follows alongside of showing respect. You can't require her not to feel resentment. Again, those are feelings that she will need to work out. Hopefully, MC can help with it.
Send permanent end message to OM - That should have already been a requirement issued by you. Has your knowledge of her EA always been a secret?
Offer a transparency plan - Well, I would say "require" it. She has to be accountable, make atonement....if you will. It's not right for her to just expect you to trust her when she has proven she is untrustworthy.


So actually, most of this is work she will have to do. Your part is enforcing those things that aren't considered as her feelings. This is your life. You have a say about it. Why would keep closed lip about her cheating and her pretending everything was simply honky-dory? She blamed everything on YOU. Isn't that why you were left......b/c you were under the assumption you were the problem? To this day, you have not opened your mouth about the real issue....which was her EA? I'm not suggesting you did not have things to change about yourself, but the TRUTH behind the split, was b/c of her emotional connection to her XH. I'm telling you as a former WW, if you wait around for her to voluntarily confess it was not you, but rather b/c she was having an EA with her XH, you may never see the day.
The WW will blame the H as long as she can get away with it. So far, you are the reason she's getting away with it.

Those are my thoughts, FWIW. If you decide to address the EA, I'm sure the board can help you put together a plan.
Originally Posted by Sandi2
You know, Lusa, when we say no R talk, we don't mean to imply that you are to NEVER speak of the relationship again. We stress "no R talk" so much, I guess people think it is off the table even if they are trying to reconcile. However, I think your problem here is that you don't know where the MR stands. Like some other board members, you are stuck in limbo b/c you don't feel like it is really a reconciliation, but you are in the MBR and having sex.....and she's being nicer.


I have followed the rules really well and the no R talk in particular has been really helpful up until the point where I should have realised it was time to bring it up. If she’d have made any reference to where the MR stands I would have taken it as my opening to have the R talk, but she just kept quiet.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
If you have waited on your W to bring up the things you feel need to be discussed.......she may NEVER go there. Why? B/c most WW's don't desire to talk about their betraying, lying, deceitful, sneaky, unfaithful, backstabbing, selfish, disrespectful, rebellious, resentful.........(do I need to go on?)..........wayward behavior. She doesn't have a problem talking about how you made mistakes in the past, but she doesn't want to have her's pointed out. I'm just saying that after nearly a year, and you moved successfully into the MBR.........and having sex.........don't you feel there has been some point in time that the elephant in the room should have been addressed?


I thought that after all she had done and how we were getting on that she would eventually want to bring this up so we can move on. I understand now that this isn’t going to happen and why. I’m sick of living in Limbo and obviously need to address the elephant in the room. I am ashamed I haven’t brought this up before but was scared of doing it in the wrong way, I could really do with some advice on how to approach it.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
Maybe I haven't read far enough yet, so have you told her what you would need in order to really reconcile? If not, then IMHO, it's as if you are hanging suspended between heaven and hell. IDK......it's just me wondering if that is okay with you.


I haven’t told her what I will need to really reconcile, I do feel that I am hanging suspended between heaven and hell and no it is definitely not ok with me to stay like this.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
I was asked to give my thoughts on another similar sitch, and afterwards, I have decided that person had rather keep things suspended rather than follow the suggestions given. I also saw someone who was set in their ways for many years, and just between us......I felt like that was the problem for not following the advice. Anyway......I don't want to see this MR stay in the condition until both people are too set in their ways to change.


Thank you for your concern, I can see the danger of this happening and I am ready to do whatever it takes to stop it. I will not be like the person who would rather keep things suspended than follow the suggestions or stay set in my ways rather than change things. I will be scared but I know I will just have to do it scared.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
Another reason I believe it is important to know where the relationships stands at the point, is so you will know whether or not to continue following the 37 rules. Once the couple reconciles and is piecing the M back together, the 37 rules are put aside. I have a thread (with BluWave contributing) to those things to follow during Piecing. But currently, you can't really define your MR as in Piecing, can you? Has your WW told you she no longer wants to end the M, or get a D or whatever she may have originally said?


I have read that very interesting thread, thank you to you and BluWave. It’s quite an eye opener to see that our successful joint commitment to R will only lead to the long difficult work of piecing. I can’t define my MR as in piecing as we haven’t discussed R, I haven’t given her my stipulations and she hasn’t verbally gone back on any of the things she has said at BD and since. Although her actions and behaviour look like she wants to R and has changed her mind on these things she hasn’t actually told me anything.

Originally Posted by Lusa
No wonder my WW doesn't want to talk or consider R, preferring to just rug-sweep and pretend.
It is because she is still deeply in love with OM, and unfortunately as this is her ex H, with shared history I don't think she's ever going to get over it.
She writes notes before talking to him, I've seen a few before and posted them here. Unfortunately, I snooped yesterday and found another note, they are always around cutting off contact, and this is in response to cutting off contact.



Originally Posted by Sandi2
This is not just another man. it's her XH. Do they have children together? You have children with her, and she's willing to wait till they leave home to reunite with her XH? That's not love, that's a fantasy! If she went back to him, she'd want you as her OM.


They married about 20 years ago. They had no children and the marriage only lasted a couple of years, due to him having multiple A’s treating her very badly including violence and in the end being admitted to a psyche unit for serious mental difficulties, I think schizophrenia. He then abandoned her and she filed for D on that basis. He went back to his country and still lives over 5,000 miles away from us.

I met her the week her D was finalised, and we have been together 17 years with 2 beautiful children. I believe from what I’ve read that her fantasy is now to reunite with him when the kids have left. She has been living this fantasy in her EA for the last 3 years with him and is now dealing with withdrawals due to her recent decision to temporary cut off contact.

Originally Posted by Lusa
I have been thinking about this for a long time and so finally said that I can't make decisions on these sort of things when we haven't discussed reconciling and she hasn't committed to doing what she can to make things work.
She responded with something along the lines of we are getting on much better so I reiterated that the verbal commitment from her and our joint decision to R will have to come before any other discussions on our future. She made it clear she understood so I am really pleased I finally got this point said after all this time.


Originally Posted by Sandi2
Great! But you can't leave it there. Has she made a verbal commitment? If so, hold her to it by requiring that both of you attend therapy for couples dealing with emotional affair with previous spouses. I mean, I'm sure other things will be addressed, but XH is the ELEPHANT.


I am ready to request her verbal commitment and then explain it what it will entail. I am just not sure how to say it, what to say if she refuses etc. One way or another this huge elephant needs addressing once and for all regardless of the consequences.


Originally Posted by Sandi2
So actually, most of this is work she will have to do. Your part is enforcing those things that aren't considered as her feelings. This is your life. You have a say about it. Why would keep closed lip about her cheating and her pretending everything was simply honky-dory? She blamed everything on YOU. Isn't that why you were left......b/c you were under the assumption you were the problem? To this day, have you not opened your mouth about the real issue....which was her EA? I'm not suggesting you did not have things to change about yourself, but the TRUTH behind the split, was b/c of her emotional connection to her XH. I'm telling you as a former WW, if you wait around for her to voluntarily confess it was not you, but rather b/c she was having an EA with her XH, you may never see the day.
The WW will blame the H as long as she can get away with it. So far, you are the reason she's getting away with it.

This is exactly what I needed to hear, thank you. I have no excuses except fear and not knowing where our MR stands. I realise I could be waiting forever and instead need to take action now.
I first found out about her EA a year ago shortly after I had moved out as she had duped me into thinking it was my fault. She refused to talk to me about it and even said things like “I can talk to who I want”, “you can’t control me” etc. I felt my only options were to wait or file.
My recent discovery that the EA was happening for years before BD has helped me realise, I have been duped. Last time I brought it up she looked me in the eyes and denied it. I am sure she will do anything she can to avoid admitting this, by denying, deflecting, minimising etc.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
Those are my thoughts, FWIW. If you decide to address the EA, I'm sure the board can help you put together a plan.

“FWIW” your thoughts feel like an angel’s words sent to me in my time of need. I have definitely decided to address the EA I just need to work out how.
I will tell her I want to talk and that I know how long the EA has been going on, how I was duped, how deep she got involved with him and I am at the point where I am completely ready to let her go.
Thank you for your advice on my list I have revised it as follows, I will tell her I expect her to:

Verbally commit to do everything she can to reconcile with me and save this MR

Send a permanent end message to him with me watching through her secret FB account with me watching whilst she then deletes the account.

Agree to my chosen transparency plan.

Attend M/C of my choice where we will address her EA, how she can help me rebuild trust and how we can start piecing.


I need to be prepared for her to continually deny everything or refuse to comply. I think my only choice will be to issue the ultimatum that she does all this or I file for D on the grounds of unreasonable behaviour.
Any advice from the board on this plan will be very much appreciated.

Thanks
Quote
I am ashamed I haven’t brought this up before but was scared of doing it in the wrong way, I could really do with some advice on how to approach it.


Don't feel ashamed, b/c you thought you were doing the right thing. Sometimes, I wish I could go back and clarify some of the 37 rules, b/c over the years I have seen people going a bit extreme with some of the rules. It's simply b/c they were written more in bullet point style, without sufficient explanations. So anyway.......we all learn, eh? I think we can figure out what your next step should be, or how you may need to address the elephant in the room.

Quote
I will be scared but I know I will just have to do it scared.


Exactly! All I ask is if you will run things by the board before you jump into some major decision or have a serious talk. LBS's tend to make more mistakes when they feel a spurt of inspiration or desperation (whichever) and don't discuss it with the board, or give the board time to reply. I don't want anyone getting dependent on the board to make their decisions, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

Quote
It’s quite an eye opener to see that our successful joint commitment to R will only lead to the long difficult work of piecing.


LOL........yes, I see what you mean. However, if it will help your feelings, I let you in on something I believe about the LBH and piecing. I am not suggesting anyone agrees with me, okay? (Please forgive for taking the long road around to explain something you might feel doesn't apply at the moment, but it's how I try to explain it overall.) IMHO, the H's who are on the board, getting all the available tools offered to him.....is so much better prepared for Piecing than the average guy. Many H's will do a lot of their personal growth, reinvention, 180's. etc., before the couple ever reaches reconciliation. What he may, or may not, realize is that the WW's work cannot begin until she ends her affair. Some people may not see it as "work", but one of the hardest things she'll do is to successfully end all contact with her AP......and go through the withdrawals of that addiction. She has to get that OM out of head and leave him out (no fantasizing about what could have been, etc.) Until she does that work, the MR is not going to be everything is could be, b/c she has another guy in her head! To be fair, if I even dare use that word toward a WW, depression will probably go hand in hand with the withdrawals and even last for a while. If I need to expound why, I am up for the task.

So, what if the WW ends her affair, but no verbal commitment or reconciliation is made? This is where I will quickly question her lack of remorse and motivation. You see, she can make choices to show politeness, friendliness, affection, and basically act as if nothing ever happened. She can improve her all around behavior without her feeling one degree of remorse for how she treated her H. She should not be under the assumption that ending her affair automatically reconciled the MR. B/c a woman is capable of ending her A; go through withdrawals; and still not feel remorse. She can hang on to old resentment, disrespect, and self justification for a long time. Those very issues will prevent her from experiencing true and complete remorse, IMHO. She may be able to work on self improvement to a point, but that junk she has buried in her heart has to be healed or she's not going to experience the in-love feelings she wants. It's a process for the WW. It doesn't happen all in flash. Once she lets go of all that resentment and forgives her H for everything he's ever done.......I think she'll experience remorse for her own actions. I'm not saying the H should ask her to forgive him for everything. Please don't go there in some attempt to help her feel remorse,. This is something she has to process herself, and IMHO, it's part of the painful work she has to do. She has to overcome her pride, in order to feel remorse. If the H goes to her seeking forgiveness of things he isn't even aware exist, he will automatically set her up to continue blaming him for their problems, and she won't likely experience much humility if he's the scapegoat.

Just like her H needed tools, she will need tools also. He needs to realize that they have been on separate journeys, and coming back to the same one is going to be challenging. He's done all this work in hopes of saving himself and his M. He is excited when they reconcile, but when they enter into Piecing, he doesn't understand why she isn't showing the same level of effort, energy, interest, affection, etc. She has to process a lot and it doesn't come overnight for most. It's like being pregnant and giving birth. If she thought it was tough being pregnant, she doesn't know anything yet. Just wait till labor hits! The H did his thing beforehand, so his part of his job during the pregnancy and labor pains is to give her emotional support.

Quote
I can’t define my MR as in piecing as we haven’t discussed R, I haven’t given her my stipulations and she hasn’t verbally gone back on any of the things she has said at BD and since. Although her actions and behaviour look like she wants to R and has changed her mind on these things she hasn’t actually told me anything.


I don't think you are in Piecing, either. You are limbo, b/c nothing was said or settled, that I can tell. Here's what I am wondering. When you went back to the MBR,was it the night you returned home? I can't remember. And, were you intimate the night you returned to the MBR? If so, then there's a chance she is letting that event signify a reconciliation. If I were in her shoes, being intimate with my H would mean reconciliation........but that doesn't mean I actually said it in words. If my H never said he required anything from me......then I would assume we were reconciled, since we were sleeping in the same room, having sex and pretty much going about like an ordinary couple. But that's me. Your W may be different. From what I've read, most all WW's will not take it upon themselves to do or say everything the H wants/needs if he stays quite about it. What's that old saying about silence gives consent?

Quote
They married about 20 years ago. They had no children and the marriage only lasted a couple of years, due to him having multiple A’s treating her very badly including violence and in the end being admitted to a psyche unit for serious mental difficulties, I think schizophrenia. He then abandoned her and she filed for D on that basis. He went back to his country and still lives over 5,000 miles away from us.


Oh wow! So, the idea that she would entertain the thought of going back to him.......is disturbing, to say the least. As I said in the previous post, this is a fantasy she has. IDK if he has convinced her that he is well and yada, yada.......but for whatever reason, she has some type of attachment. Regardless, it is unhealthy that she would even consider it. If I were you, therapy would definitely be on top of the list of requirements in going forward.

Quote
I met her the week her D was finalised, and we have been together 17 years with 2 beautiful children. I believe from what I’ve read that her fantasy is now to reunite with him when the kids have left. She has been living this fantasy in her EA for the last 3 years with him and is now dealing with withdrawals due to her recent decision to temporary cut off contact.


Is she demonstrating any particular symptoms, or are you going by the fact she has gone NC? How long has it been since last contact?

Quote
She refused to talk to me about it and even said things like “I can talk to who I want”, “you can’t control me” etc. I felt my only options were to wait or file.


It's not about you trying to control her. It is about your personal boundaries. When she M you, she was to forsake all others, which means not to be sexual with anyone else. If you google it, you will find a lot of additional opinions about that vow, so I might as well add mine. It means that no other person takes priority over her relationship with her H. If her H does not feel comfortable with her talking to another man......then by her own wedding vows, she should honor his feelings. If he is unreasonable, then she should divorce him, but don't continue communicating with some guy when your H has a problem with it. I am so sick of women playing the "you are trying to control me" card. She is the one manipulating you by playing that card, and don't you forget it. Men's b@lls tend to freeze up when their W plays the control card. (Sorry.........got on a rampage.)

You need to be secure in what you will do if she chooses not to honor your feelings. That is basically the function of enforcing boundaries.

Quote
My recent discovery that the EA was happening for years before BD has helped me realise, I have been duped. Last time I brought it up she looked me in the eyes and denied it. I am sure she will do anything she can to avoid admitting this, by denying, deflecting, minimising etc.


For some men, it seems important to prove what he knows to be true. Shoving the evidence in her face doesn't always bring a confession......as crazy as it may sound. You can't fix crazy! I don't recommend you show your sources of intell to her, b/c should she agree to your terms of reconciliation....you want to keep very close tabs on her communication with OM. So, don't give your sources away, no matter how much you want to push it into her face. If she denies, simply tell her you both know she's lying, and proceed with your alternative plan.......which should be to physically separate/divorce. As long as you are going to live under false pretenses and not do anything about it.......she'll play dumb. That's what WW do best.........play dumb! And, they play their H's for a dummy. (Sorry) You are no dummy. You are a good man, and one who loves his family. She's the dummy, and it sounds as if she needs professional therapy considering her XH previous track record.

Oh, I written too much. So, we can continue once you reply.
Originally Posted by Sandi2
All I ask is if you will run things by the board before you jump into some major decision or have a serious talk. LBS's tend to make more mistakes when they feel a spurt of inspiration or desperation (whichever) and don't discuss it with the board, or give the board time to reply. I don't want anyone getting dependent on the board to make their decisions, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.


Understood. Thank you for the warning, I can see how that could easily happen in these situations, I won't rush into anything. One of the gifts I have gained through this process is patience, so I will use it here.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
I don't think you are in Piecing, either. You are limbo, b/c nothing was said or settled, that I can tell. Here's what I am wondering. When you went back to the MBR,was it the night you returned home? I can't remember. And, were you intimate the night you returned to the MBR? If so, then there's a chance she is letting that event signify a reconciliation.


I moved back against her wishes and spent the first 6 weeks sleeping on the couch, like a lost puppy who was eventually allowed in the house out of the rain. Then one night I just went to sleep in the MBR, nothing was said. After a week or so she initiated intimacy. This would have been a very rare event for even years pre-BD, but at least I now know why. It wasn't repeated and now it is small non-sexual touching slowly building up.

I do believe she chalked it up to her symbolic reconciliation, and with my intel I'm pretty sure it coincided with her last NC communication to XH.


Originally Posted by Sandi2
Is she demonstrating any particular symptoms, or are you going by the fact she has gone NC? How long has it been since last contact?


From good intel, I am pretty sure the last goodbye / Au Revior words were around the start of Dec, so 10 weeks.
She has played "their songs" on repeat when ever alone for a while, which is gradually diminishing now. she's shown signs of depression. I've validated well and initiated new projects with her, she has felt supported (obviously with no mention of the elephant). I can almost see her change every day letting me a little bit more into her heart as she lets him go.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
You need to be secure in what you will do if she chooses not to honor your feelings. That is basically the function of enforcing boundaries.


Now etched in my heart........thank you

Originally Posted by Sandi2
I don't recommend you show your sources of intell to her, b/c should she agree to your terms of reconciliation....you want to keep very close tabs on her communication with OM.


Noted, thanks.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
As long as you are going to live under false pretenses and not do anything about it.......she'll play dumb. That's what WW do best.........play dumb! And, they play their H's for a dummy. (Sorry) You are no dummy. You are a good man, and one who loves his family. She's the dummy, and it sounds as if she needs professional therapy considering her XH previous track record.


I have been so lost in the desperate LBS fog, my fleeting realizations that her choices are disturbing and she needs professional help keep getting lost and forgotten. I've read stories here where IC's just validate their clients feelings and encourage them to do what they want, but actually this is more serious, her flawed decisions here are a real cause for concern. I will make therapy for her a priority too.
Just a couple of things to add, that might be important

Originally Posted by Sandi2
IMHO, it's part of the painful work she has to do. She has to overcome her pride, in order to feel remorse.


Her stubborn pride is/will be a huge issue. She's always had a problem with it. Even S13 regularly comments how frustrated he gets with her as she never admits she was wrong or says sorry easily.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
it sounds as if she needs professional therapy considering her XH previous track record.


Her father died before I met her and she was very close to her mother. Unfortunately she died suddenly about 6 years ago and it really hit her hard. She really never seemed to heal from it and didn't go to any kind of therapy.
Well, you can't make another person feel remorse. The wayward spirit will likely rebuke any sort of guilt card the H may play in an attempt to stir remorse in his WW. If she is defensive or you hit a nerve......she'll pounce on you like a tigress. She'll bring up everything you've done the past 17 years.

My H has such a forgiving heart but when he looked at me and said, "I can't believe that you haven't even apologized to me", I saw none of that good heart. Looking through my WW eyes, I saw a H filled with self-righteousness, and I wanted to tear into him. I wanted to tell him that it was his fault that we were in that mess.

After hearing of your W's loss of her parents, it makes even more sense that therapy may be needed. Is she the type who wants to talk about her feelings, or does she bury them in her heart? Some people are very touchy about someone suggesting they see a "shrink". I may understand the WW side of her, but I don't know the person you've known in her. To be honest, I don't recall another case where the WW broke contact with OM.....with the intent of no further contact until she joins him years down the road from the present time. It causes me to question if this is just a case of waywardness, or if there is more to what's going on in her. Don't misunderstand what I mean. The psychosis in some WW's can be very alarming. Every sitch is personalized by its history and experiences within that woman's life.

The lack of contact could throw her into withdrawals, but I am concerned she is keeping that dream alive......which would be a common act for WW's. She may write her feelings and dreams in a journal, or just fantasize about how wonderful their life will be together. She may fuel her dreams by losing herself in romantic novels (it happens). The logically person would eventually give up and realize that OM isn't going to wait for her that long. He's just playing the game. However, I have to ask.......how logical is she? When a woman is unhappy and her emotional needs are not being met, she will reach out to something or someone that will stir some feelings that assure her she's not dead. Even if it's nothing more than a fantasy, if it makes her feel good......she continues doing it.

Does your W have a close female friend? Does she have any relatives still living?

Okay, so let's continue to talk about this for a little longer. You've waited this long, you can wait a bit more. So far, I've learned she has a lot of stubborn pride; has suffered loss of both parents; has kept secrets from her H. What type of personality does she have? Who would you say "wears the pants" in this relationship? Would you describe her as a bully; self entitled; a perfectionist; high strung; low key; quick to anger; affectionate, timid, etc.

How are things going in the bedroom? Still having sex? Here's an important question. Does she let you give her open mouth kisses? You know the kind I mean. Does she engage in sex, but avoids the open mouth kisses? Are there any nonsexual show of affection throughout the day, or is all pretty much hands off?

You may see my questions as pointless and not getting you any closer to actually addressing the EA. I'm trying to see "her". I'm trying to see what is driving her wayward ship. I'm looking for a piece of the puzzle picture, I suppose. I will quickly tell anyone I am no expert. You don't have to answer anything you don't want to answer.
Originally Posted by Sandi2
After hearing of your W's loss of her parents, it makes even more sense that therapy may be needed. Is she the type who wants to talk about her feelings, or does she bury them in her heart? Some people are very touchy about someone suggesting they see a "shrink". I may understand the WW side of her, but I don't know the person you've known in her.


I have previously (lovingly) suggested she see a “shrink” many times when she was grieving for her mother, it didn’t go down well, and she refused. Funnily enough she is a trained psychotherapist and life coach so is good at listening to other people’s feelings but not talking about her own. She is definitely the type to bury her feelings in her heart rather than talk about them. I can easily see how she kept burying her resentment towards me in her heart rather than discussing it with me.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
The lack of contact could throw her into withdrawals, but I am concerned she is keeping that dream alive......which would be a common act for WW's. She may write her feelings and dreams in a journal, or just fantasize about how wonderful their life will be together. She may fuel her dreams by losing herself in romantic novels (it happens).


She has been losing herself in romantic novels for years. I didn’t think anything of this and even used to buy them for her. Once I read on your threads what this could mean I became more aware of the amount of these novels she was devouring. Sometimes one a day all about affairs / lost love regained etc.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
Does your W have a close female friend? Does she have any relatives still living?


She has far more friends than anyone I know and is constantly trying to connect/reconnect with friends from the past. As for close female friends, her closest disappeared on her when her mum died, but she still has plenty of friends from her school days that she does talk to regularly.
From what I know though she hasn’t told even her closest female friend the full truth about when the EA started. Just that he conveniently contacted her a month after I’d moved out.
She has a few relatives still living but they have been no support to her, an older sister who has been evil to her since she was born and an auntie who doesn’t really care about her.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
Okay, so let's continue to talk about this for a little longer. You've waited this long, you can wait a bit more. So far, I've learned she has a lot of stubborn pride; has suffered loss of both parents; has kept secrets from her H. What type of personality does she have? Who would you say "wears the pants" in this relationship? Would you describe her as a bully; self entitled; a perfectionist; high strung; low key; quick to anger; affectionate, timid, etc.


It’s hard for me to answer who wears the pants, I would say it was me up until I turned into a mess since BD. She is very self-entitled, works hard, a good public speaker, a fantastic caring mother (even through this last year of hell). She’s always been very quick to be extremely defensive, I used to put this down to childhood bullying from her sister. Likes to play the victim sometimes, states that she finds confrontation very hard. Easily gets very upset when a friend doesn’t treat her right or says the wrong thing. You reminded me of her when you wrote about what a “good girl” you were. I married her because she never lied to anyone and always went out of her way to help people, prided herself on her moral integrity and “simple faith”.

I’d never met anyone like that, she seemed like an angel to me compared with women I had known before.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
How are things going in the bedroom? Still having sex? Here's an important question. Does she let you give her open mouth kisses? You know the kind I mean. Does she engage in sex, but avoids the open mouth kisses? Are there any nonsexual show of affection throughout the day, or is all pretty much hands off?


The bedroom has been a big problem for a decade or so, basically since she got pregnant, we have had a SSM. This in turn caused a lot of negative reaction and pressure from me over the years, however I think she had a problem with sex before that. I remember her going to a therapist for her IC work around that time and him telling her she needs to buy a porn mag or read sex books because she had issues even talking about sex.
Sex was great when we met and until she got pregnant, but I can’t help thinking it was part of an act. There hasn’t been any sex now since her “symbolic reconciliation” initiation.
When we are intimate and do kiss she always uses her tongue, but it mostly seems quite forced into my mouth. I don’t think she has a problem with me given her open mouth kisses but more of a long-term issue with any type of physical affection and sexual activity. Up until BD I used to complain on an almost daily basis that I couldn’t stand never having non-sexual touches, it was like torture to me. I used to crave just an occasional hand on my back while I was cooking etc.

Since her attempt a R there has been more non-sexual touching. I have almost trained her to hug and kiss me before I leave for work and now she initiates that when I say goodbye. Sometimes she now initiates a hug when she is upset. She also slowly moves towards me and ends up leaning on me when we are reading in bed. I don’t really initiate anything any more because I don’t want to pursue and am sick of rejection. The most I’ve been doing is sometimes holding her as she goes to sleep.

I forgot to mention she is almost double her ideal body-weight and has been this way since giving birth to our 1st child, so this will certainly play a part for her.

One other point is both pregnancies were really difficult for her, she was sick and had migraines nearly every day for the whole nine months, our babies wouldn’t grow to term inside her properly. Both were emergency caesareans, the first was so small he was in an incubator for 3 weeks.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
You may see my questions as pointless and not getting you any closer to actually addressing the EA. I'm trying to see "her". I'm trying to see what is driving her wayward ship. I'm looking for a piece of the puzzle picture, I suppose. I will quickly tell anyone I am no expert. You don't have to answer anything you don't want to answer.


I don’t see any of these questions as pointless, I have read a lot of your writing and understand why you’ve asked for this information. Thank you so much for your interest and support.
So I've been back in the house for 6 months now and apart from some initial spewing when I moved back there has not been a cross word or outward showing of disrespect from WW for all that time. Then it reared it's ugly head again this morning, a stupid situation where the light's had fused so it was dark and S14 had made a mess in the kitchen raiding the food cupboards in the middle of the night.

When WW found the mess in the morning, she presumed it was me and disrespectfully started accusing me of it as I was waking up. I immediately called her out on it and when she walked away as I was talking told her that was immature. She made a half sort of sorry later on, but I just told her I won't tolerate any form of disrespect from her, said my goodbyes to the kids and left for work.

An hour later I received a text from her stating "I am sorry I was bad tempered and disrespectful to you this morning"
10 minutes later I replied "Apology accepted. Don't do it again"

Then a few hours later she rang to apologize again, I again accepted her apology and plan to ensure the kids understand that she was out of order and has apologized to me. I feel this is very significant and symbolic of the fact that i finally have my balls back and will no longer tolerate any form of disrespect including any repeat of her secretive EA actions that I haven't called her out on yet.

I'm not sure where the anger came from but I've been out GAL 3 nights out of the last 5 and she doesn't like it, so it could be that. Anyway she'll think twice now before showing me further disrespect.
Good job at calling her out.

.
I have read here before about the WAS who is actively involved in an A changing their behavior towards the bewildered LBS just before they go and see the AP or when they make contact with the AP again. Trying to create some kind of justification or for their behavior or to appease their guilt, it now looks like that is just what's happened to me.

I found out yesterday that Tuesday night / Wednesday morning's rare show of disrespect coincided with her resuming contact with the AP.

She had an old FB account since before we were M. Soon after we were married, when I found her communicating with ex-MIL I explained it wasn't ok with me and had to stop. She listened to me then and stopped the communication. I was too naive to insist the account was deactivated, not that it would have made any difference anyway.

This FB account then became secret and at some point around 3 years ago she resumed contact first with ex-MIL and then with ex-H. This was their main means of communication while her EA was cemented and in her words in a diary they "made great strides in their new love".

I can currently monitor the number of unread notifications on this account and it has been my main source of intel. It showed me that she had stopped logging on and checking messages around 3 months ago. I have been checking this once a week or so and the number of unread notifications slowly increased each week, 1 on V-day for example till it got to 23. I checked again yesterday morning and found the number had gone down to 19. This means at the very least she has been reading his messages of love, if not replying and full-on resuming contact. This feels like the last straw for me, I now feel betrayed, battle fatigued and finally completely done with all of this.

Last week I was so eager to find out how to "address her EA", now I just want her out of my life. Even with the best case scenario, involving her properly ending the EA, I would still be living as plan b waiting for OM2/BD2. She would still be wayward and I don't see her going through the process to rid herself of that. She doesn't love me enough, she has way too much stubborn pride and wouldn't be willing to do the hard work on herself. The last thing that has been keeping me hanging on is protection of the kids, but I can't carry on like this, I need my dignity back.

Originally Posted by LH19


I just want to tell you that your kids are my kids age and they will be fine as long as you and your W are able to treat each other with respect.

Hang in there man!


Thank you LH this gives me strength, I love them so much I'd do anything to protect them but can't carry on like this.
Lusa, take some deep breaths and let your emotions subside before doing anything. It rarely is wise to make decisions when emotions are raw.

Sorry man, but try to concentrate on you again. How's GAL going?
Thanks Steve, I feel that I've been here long enough and read enough to successfully stop myself acting from emotion when I get the urge. Also Sandi reiterated this to me recently.

Originally Posted by sandi2
All I ask is if you will run things by the board before you jump into some major decision or have a serious talk. LBS's tend to make more mistakes when they feel a spurt of inspiration or desperation (whichever) and don't discuss it with the board, or give the board time to reply. I don't want anyone getting dependent on the board to make their decisions, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.


GAL is going ok, thanks for asking. As always I could be doing more but have started some new things recently. As well as the usual going to a friends once a week to play guitar and learning songs at home on my own I have a couple of new GAL activities:

1. Walking. I have a step-counter and am making sure I smash my 10k goal every day. I am making the choice to walk instead of drive for local trips whenever possible. It's amazing how the simple act of motion can move emotion. Plus I seem to get to smile and say hi to a lot more strangers along the way that feels good.

2. Mens Group. I have joined a mens group which meets every 2 weeks for a couple of hours. It consists of 7 men and my IC. The men all have their own issues and we are learning to talk about our feeling and how rare this is for men to do. The concepts are based on a book called Circle of Men and there are groups set up and ran by men all over the world. The idea is that after our 6 sessions we will choose to continue meeting on our own. The next session is a 6 hour session where we will all get chance to talk about our stories and share our feelings. It's certainly took my out of my comfort zone which is always a good sign for GAL.

Thanks for your support
Good work lusa!
Just when I said I wasn't going to say anything, I ended up saying it. I woke up this morning, WW came in the room to ask something, I answered and then stayed in bed with my eyes shut. i thought she'd left the room and the words "I want a divorce" just came out my mouth. She was actually still in the room, and crouched down getting something out the drawers.

I was half asleep, and shocked she was still there, she asked me what I said a few times, and I replied nothing and she left the room. The morning routine went by as normal, but she didn't move to hug me when I said goodbye so I just left.

The truth is I do want a D now, I don't want to be passive aggressive, or play any games. There's no point now. So I slipped up, she knows and now she's at home alone playing sad songs about it. When I get home I don't care if she's going to be angry and treat me badly, or gushing and treat me well, it doesn't make any difference. Going by her track record I presume it won't be mentioned.
So lusa, when are you going to hire a lawyer and file?
Not sure Steve, I'm sitting here at work looking out the window directly at a L's office.
Meanwhile WW's texting various irrelevant niceties and updates on the kids. I think the first thing to do is to finally talk.

I feel like I want to sit her down and say I know how long your EA was going on for, I know I was duped on BD, I know the commitment you made for the future with him and I know you recently broke your self-imposed N/C. For those reasons I want a D.
lusa, my overall point is that either you want a D or you don't. Don't say you do if you don't. Don't say I am done when really what you mean is "I don't like your behavior and therefore I am going to threaten D to get you to shape up." What sets LBSs apart from WASs is that LBSs, once they reach the desire to actually D they move forward with it and do it.

I get the impression that you are angry at her contacting OM, and instead of dealing with that head-on you have taken the manipulation approach. I know you say you didn't know she was in the room still. I am not sure if you are being honest with yourself about that or not. Maybe you are, maybe you really didn't think that. Maybe you said "I don't want a D" without hoping she'd overhear it. Or maybe you said it hoping she'd still be within earshot. I don't know. But to me this just seems like it isn't coming from the right place.

Do you REALLY want a D, or is that the pain and hurt of her contacting OM again?

lusa, in my first sitch back in 2005, when I used spyware to find out the content of her IMs with OM, and it was clear an EA was in full blown, headed toward PA mode, I confronted her. She immediately said she didn't want a D. I demanded she send him a cease and desist email, and stop all contact.

About 6 weeks in, with the spyware still running, she sent him an email. She later told me she knew I was monitoring an didn't want to feel controlled. My response? I uninstalled the Spyware and told her she was free to do whatever she wanted. For the next 8-9 years she was fully committed to the marriage. I don't know if she ever contacted him on FB once that became a thing, all I know is she was the loving, caring, wife and mother she was prior to her EA in 2005. My point? What good is being with someone that only does what you want them to do for fear of you Ding them? They need to want to be there because they want to be there. You cannot engender that by threats.

So do you really want a D? Or do you want her to make more promises until she has another weak moment? Are you in IC? Is she? Are you in MC? Anything you can 180 on? Have you ever looked into self-differentiation in marriage? If not I suggest you Google it.
Why don´t you take some TIME to decide lusa? I think this is the first time I get into your sitch. I´m sorry. I´m just trying to catch up with the forum.

I was a WWH. I think part of my mind still is (I heard you Blu). But I know it´s fantasy fueled. So I take it as that. Your W is pursuing a fantasy R with her XH. I know you have the right to stand for your goals, in fact you must do that. But I can´t avoid stating that you need to help W too. She needs to figure out what she wants and she must cut off her EA. GIve her that info and the chance to see you are not waiting for her anymore. Like Sandi said, you are not going to be her OM on her fantasy XH R.

Show W your light. She sees it. She must follow it too.

Release some anger, detach with love (you had nearly done it before) and show W your cards. Set W free.

Respect, hope and mercy. And love above all. Love for W, your kids and yourself.

Be strong there lusa.
Thank you Steve, you are right I don't want to D and this was all me definitely coming from the wrong place. The only way we should stay together is if she chooses to from love not fear, thank you for reminding me. It's so easy for me to forget when I get scared and stressed. There are a few 180's left that I am tackling and will document shortly. I have been reading on differentiation today, very interesting.

Thank you Neffer for your kind words. I feel I have been the light for so long now, she has already followed it to a certain extent. I've come so far already I will continue to learn to detach with love for all of us and set her free.

I am calm now - the support here is so much appreciated.
Quote
I feel like I want to sit her down and say I know how long your EA was going on for, I know I was duped on BD, I know the commitment you made for the future with him and I know you recently broke your self-imposed N/C. For those reasons I want a D.


I think the LBH has a strong desire to let his WW know he has not been totally duped. Being duped is rough for anyone, but I think it's especially tough for men. When you look at the heart of why you want this conversation, it is about revealing what you know to her. If that's what you are going to do, then you need to have some type of plan before you address it. Know what you want, and know what you require from her in order to proceed with a MR. Don't go into it to just see what she says or how she feels. Don't even say what you require, unless you hear her ask what has to do. It's about what she is willing to do in order to save the M. Btw, she doesn't have to like it or feel a certain way, in order to conduct herself respectfully, and honor her marriage.

FWIW, the first thing she'll want to find out is how much you know, and how you found out. Then, she'll probably try to turn the tables and make you feel terrible for invading her privacy. smirk Don't let her get the focus on her not being able to trust "you". She is the one who has had the secret EA. She is the one who violated trust in the MR. WW's are sly, so stay on your toes.

I have often said if my H had told me he wanted out of our M, it would have yanked me back so fast my head would have spinned. You see, the wayward W is arrogant, and sees herself as the one choosing a better life.....a better man.....etc. It's like a game (if you'll excuse the term). As long as she has the ball, she's going to play the offense, but as soon as he gets the ball, what happens? She immediately goes into defense. She wants to secure the ball. That's why the H will start seeing temp checks from her.

I'll add this side note. When I read Neffer's post about his struggles with the fantasy, it brought back memories of how long I clung to the thoughts of "what if", "what could have been" with OM. This was after I decided to end my A and stay in the M. A fantasy can be very strong. Just b/c a wayward spouse decides to end the A doesn't mean the fantasy ends. The WS has to murder it! It's not going to quietly slip away. It's not going to die a natural death. You have to kill it. This type of fantasy is unhealthy for the individual and for the MR. Once the fantasy is gone, then the love in the MR has a chance to heal and grow.

So anyway, when you decide to confront her, don't go in playing defense. You have the ball.
This is beginning to get a bit boring and repetitive even for me now so it must be for anyone reading this.

I saw tonight that she had started messaging potential OM2 with kisses at the end etc. A newly divorced old school friend which she recently connected with on FB. It doesn't matter she is completely wayward and until she really wants to change inside, will stay that way.

She's nothing but nice to me, cooking for me initiating hugs, calling me my pet name all the time (too much even). She acts all feminine and girly around me but I know that could change in an instant. I'd only have to say a couple of words and the facade would drop, her face visibly turns to thunder and the real WW comes out. If she looks at me her eyes seem to be burning with anger. The closet thing I've seen to it is actresses in movies that pretend to be possessed.

I think this further secret relationship starting with another man is really going to give me the impetus to focus on what I need and to strive towards it whether I have fear or not. I now feel like I am watching this unfurl on tv like a slow car crash.

It's our 15th wedding anniversary tomorrow, so they'll be cards and presents and food cooked or eating out. I plan to at some point ask her if she thinks we will be celebrating our 16th. And then if she is willing to recommit to the M and explain that it means doing whatever she can to make the M work and will involve wanting to attend MC for the right reasons. If she states everything is so much better between us so there is no need to attend m/c and she pushes me for a reason I will explain that my issue is her secret relationships with other men. They are intolerable to me and it is not possible for us to stay M whilst she continues.

Now I know her main issue and my main issue is her waywardness but I don't know how to explain that. If i tried I think it would come out wrong, with references to the state of her heart etc, and she would immediately take it as a direct attack. I think the only hope of saving our M is for her to want to attend m/c and then use those sessions to address her waywardness delicately. I don't want to D and I am willing to do anything necessary to fix our M but this will be the only chance I give her.
I won't continue to live in limbo, ignore secret communications leading to secret relationships, and live in a pretend M where our relationship is never discussed.

So that's my plan. No hard hitting accusations, showing I know I was duped or have found out all these bad things she's done. Just gently, lovingly guiding her to recommit and attend m/c with me. If she refuses I will have to tell her we can't remain married and I want her to leave the family home.

Thanks for your advice Sandi, it is so really helpful. I've been musing on what you wrote all day. I find I'm asking myself the questions you ask and it's helped me determine the best approach, get a game plan and determine what I want and what I have to do.

I'm taking the ball back smile
Originally Posted by lusa
I plan to at some point ask her if she thinks we will be celebrating our 16th.


What is the purpose of this? What do you hope to accomplish? How is this sticking to the "no R talk" principle?
It's been 14 months, when is it ok to initiate an R talk?
Originally Posted by lusa
It's been 14 months, when is it ok to initiate an R talk?


When you are ready to initiate D.
Originally Posted by lusa
It doesn't matter she is completely wayward and until she really wants to change inside, will stay that way.

What is her incentive to change?
It has to be the realization that she will lose me if she doesn't
Originally Posted by lusa
It has to be the realization that she will lose me if she doesn't


So if she doesn't, is she going to lose you? Or are you going to try the next tactic to get her to change?

Believe it or not lusa, what we are trying to point out to you, is you are still trying to control her. You have to drop that rope. You have to move on emotionally and mentally before you ever have a chance to move on physically. You said out loud in her presence yesterday "I want a divorce". Then you admit that you didn't really want a divorce.

I am not trying to beat you up here. But until she sees you moving on, really moving on, she will only feel that you are trying to manipulate and control her. And WASs/WSs will buck against that 99.999% of the time.

Do you think a man is ready to divorce his W if he is still keeping tabs on who she is in contact with? AS, when you made the choice to move ahead with D did you give a flying Wallenda who she was messaging? Of course not. When you say "do you think we'll have a 16th anniversary?" do you think that will make her think you are moving on or still attached? When you confront her about messaging some guy with kissing faces, do you think she will think "wow, he is moving on!" or will she think "I still have him by the short curlies if he is still keeping tabs on who I message!" Did you read my story about my W? How she openly rebelled against my having spyware on her computer, and didn't move back to the MR until after I uninstalled it and told her she was free to do whatever she wanted?

lusa, you are holding on so tight while trying to convince yourself that you can let go. You are like me the first time I budgie jumped, I grabbed that padding around the cable for dear life. You have to learn to swan dive with your hands stretched out wide.
Hey lusa, you need to focus on yourself. Detach, GAL, no R talks. Don´t need to show her anything, just show yourself instead. Set W free in your mind. You can´t control her. Just let her go. Time and space for her, time and space for yourself.

Keep DB lusa.
Thank you Steve, LH, Neffer and AS, your words, questions and observations have been fully taken on-board.

I think I've finally let her go and dropped the rope started to let her go and drop the rope.

I haven't snooped for 2 weeks now, and have just been focusing on me and what I need to do to move forward with my future. I feel a bit like a fly who's been buzzing against closed windows for a year and just found out that another window was open all along and flown straight out of it into the fresh air.

I realize this is a process and that I have only really just started it, despite being well aware of the theory and why i needed to do it for nearly a year now. I have been constantly checking my own thoughts and motivations to ensure I am not doing this to try and get her back. It really is because I have had enough and have realized I should have never wanted to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me. The fact that she doesn't love me, doesn't make me unlovable.

I just wanted to say thanks - I finally get it now!
lusa, great work! Detaching, not snooping, dropping the rope rarely happen for any of us overnight. It took me weeks and months. So don't be too hard on yourself. We all fly around that closed window longer than we should. The key is an overall upward trend. Not the ups and downs on a hour by hour basis. DBing is like the stock market. Never look at one day's up or down. Look at the long-term trend.
Originally Posted by Steve85
AS, when you made the choice to move ahead with D did you give a flying Wallenda who she was messaging? Of course not. When you say "do you think we'll have a 16th anniversary?" do you think that will make her think you are moving on or still attached? When you confront her about messaging some guy with kissing faces, do you think she will think "wow, he is moving on!" or will she think "I still have him by the short curlies if he is still keeping tabs on who I message!" Did you read my story about my W? How she openly rebelled against my having spyware on her computer, and didn't move back to the MR until after I uninstalled it and told her she was free to do whatever she wanted?


Luca, Steve is right, when you get to the point of wanting to initiate D yourself it has nothing to do with hoping you'll wake your W up or snap her out of it. I mean I can hardly believe I have to say this (but this isn't the first time): divorce is NOT a tactic to save your marriage! That would seem to go without saying, LOL! Anyway as Steve said, when I got to the point of pushing the D through it wasn't out of anger or malice or desperation. I was ready to move on. I didn't have a care in the world who she was messaging or spending the night with or whatever. It just didn't matter to me anymore. The woman I fell in love with and married was long gone at that point, and the person who replaced her wasn't someone I was attracted to or had much interest in seeing or interacting with beyond co-parenting. All the LBS fog was gone, the rose-colored glasses were off and the decision was made based on what was best for me moving forward.

You have to get to that same point, and you have to be there a long time before pulling the trigger in my opinion. If there is any question or doubt in your mind then no you are not ready yet. At first you may go 4 or 5 days convinced you want D and then have a day where you question it. You are STILL not ready if that happens. When you get to the point where whenever you think about it you think "yes that needs to happen" and there are no doubts ever, and you feel like that for a month or more, then you're getting there. Honestly in the months before D I didn't even really think about it that much. It wasn't something I laid awake at night thinking about. But when I did think about it my thoughts were usually "yeah we need to get this over with". IE, the marriage had been over a long time and it was just a formality that needed to be taken care of.
AS and Steve are dead on, I'm just piling on. You'll know when you are ready because you will act. Months ago I said I wanted D, was moving out, was cutting off any support...blah, blah, blah. I just wanted a reaction. Filed then pulled it back, disappeared for a day and came back, didn't pay a bill then paid it late. It doesn't work. Did this multiple times until I got it through my head that all I was worried about what she was thinking and what she was doing. You have to be ready to 100% move on, which means you are not scared to be alone and start over.

Then when I got to my true rope drop, I did it. Cut off every ounce of support for my WW, left the house and was ready to move forward because I knew I would be happier and my kids would be happier not in this environment.
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